November 4, 2024 • 37 mins
What if I told you that the toughest challenges in the corrections field could turn into your greatest opportunities for growth? I explore my journey through the demanding landscape of corrections and shed light on a world that requires incredible resilience and determination. A recent e-mail from a correctional officer grappling with the aftermath of a workplace riot sets the stage for a broader discussion on the vital role of a supportive work culture. I highlight passion, culture, expectations, and leadership as the keys to longevity in this career.
Need help finding your passion? My workbook will walk you through the steps from:
Finding Your Purpose: Crafting a Personal Vision Statement to Guide Your Life and Career! by Michael Cantrell
Jocko Podcast - Good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTMDpizis8
Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink & Lief Babin https://a.co/d/iw40nzG
Keys to Your New Career: Information and Guidance to Get Hired and Be Successful as a Correctional or Detention Officer by Michael Cantrell
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.
OMNI
OMNI is cutting-edge software designed to track inmates and assets within your prison or jail.
Command Presence
Bringing prisons and jails the training they deserve!
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello and welcome back to the Prison
Officer Podcast.
My name's Mike Cantrell.
I've got a kind of a grab bagof stuff I'm going to talk about
today.
I've been extremely busy, youknow, with.
I teach classes.
I've been out with Pepperballseveral times in the last couple
of months, which I want to saythank you to Pepperball for
(00:20):
sponsoring this podcast.
If you haven't done it yet,take a look at wwwpepperballcom.
I know that, uh, we have hadsome really fun classes.
Um, if you haven't been to apepperball class or became a
pepperball instructor, I reallysuggest, uh, that you uh reach
out to your agency and see ifthey'll let you become an
(00:40):
instructor, because it's a greatclass.
Um, become an instructorbecause it's a great class.
Of course, we get to go out onthe range.
The last class we had, theybrought a tow vehicle that was
going to get crushed, so we gotto take the glass breakers and
do different things shooting outthe windows, seeing how that
worked, shooting out therearview mirrors on our approach
(01:03):
, showing the guys how to dothat.
So we do a lot of that.
It's really hands-on.
You're going to have two daysof a lot of fun.
So, if you get the chance, goto wwwpepperballcom and take a
look at the classes that weoffer and the products that we
offer.
There's a lot of new ones ifyou haven't been there in a few
(01:24):
months.
Offer and the products that weoffer.
There's a lot of new ones ifyou haven't been there in a few
months.
So the other classes I've beenteaching have been with Command
Presence.
I think I told you guys that afew months ago, or actually
first of the year, I wasapproached by Command Presence.
They've been doing lawenforcement training for a long
time and I hope here in a coupleof podcasts I'm going to have
Michael Warren on here and wewe're going to talk about the
(01:46):
direction that Command Presencehas went to include corrections
into some of the best leadership, self-improvement, motivational
training that I've ever seen,and we're going to bring that to
corrections and we're alreadydoing that.
We're going to bring that tocorrections and we're already
doing that.
I just finished up in the OttawaSheriff's Department up in
(02:08):
Michigan West Olive, michiganand so we had a couple of great
days up there teaching, reportwriting depositions and
testimony for corrections, andso things have been just really
busy.
Got a couple of things Beendealing with a kidney stone.
I don't know if you guys wantto hear that or not, but that's
(02:32):
slowed me down on a few things.
But I've got some.
I had to put off a few of thespeakers that we've got coming
on, a few of the people we'regoing to interview, but
hopefully this week or next weekI will get them in here.
I've got some really goodinterviews coming up, lined up
for the podcast.
Kind of finish up the year withright.
We're winding down, holidaysare coming, stress is coming
(02:56):
right.
So well, you know, this week Igot some communications and I
love it when I get emails orwhen somebody you know gets on
the website and they send me a.
You know, this week I got somecommunications and I love it
when I get emails or whensomebody gets on the website and
they send me a note or tells mewhat's going on.
I love hearing that stuff.
But one I want to share withyou today and of course I don't
(03:16):
do names, I don't want to putanybody out there, but I talked
to a guy a year or so ago and hewas starting at a correctional
facility, a juvenilecorrectional facility and so we
had some discussions about howbest to approach that and he
reached out to me the other dayand I just want to.
I want to read this.
(03:37):
So there was a riot in one ofour units a few months ago.
I got punched and headbutted inthe face.
Since then, things have notbeen the same.
My ability to get work donehasn't been the same.
We also recently had someonejump ranks from sergeant to
captain.
It's taken some toll amongthose who got passed over.
(03:58):
It's been more of a toxic workenvironment.
Five or six of our sergeantshave been out on work injury and
it's caused a lot of mandatoryovertime for me working third
shift and then being held againfor first shift At our facility.
They won't let us use lesslethals, even though most of
these kids have adult bodies andthey have attacked us before.
(04:20):
You know, justice is slow andbecause we can't or they won't
charge them, we have to wait outtheir sentence and then charge
them or their juvenile sentencesvacated.
Do you have any tips withgetting past some of these
mental roadblocks?
Wow, you know it's not unique.
That's not a unique thing thatI hear.
(04:41):
You know, I go out and I teachand I get to talk to
correctional officers and I getto talk to people who are still
working.
You know, I realized that Ihave retired, my 30 plus years
is done, but I still have a lotof connection with the people
who work and in many ways thework environment's changed, but
(05:04):
in many ways it hasn't.
And so what do I mean by that?
Well, I mean that the thingsthat worked before, the good
things still work, still producegood results, produce good
culture, good institutions, goodofficers.
(05:25):
You know, when I first started,I didn't want to be a
correctional officer.
It was a get-by job.
I'm not going to lie to you.
I hear very few people.
I've met a couple since Istarted doing the podcast that
said in third grade they raisedtheir hand and said I'm going to
go into law enforcement, I wantto work in jail.
I've actually talked to acouple of people, but that
(05:45):
wasn't me.
That was never my intent or mygoal.
My father was a firefighter andI was expecting to go into
either the fire department or togo into, possibly, the police
department.
We knew a lot of officers thatmy father hung around with, so
that was the direction I wasgoing, and at the time no, you
(06:08):
guys don't realize this, but atthe time when there was five or
six openings for the police orthe fire department.
There was five or 600 peoplewho applied for those jobs,
which just sounds crazy now, butit's the absolute truth.
You'd show up and more thanlikely you would apply, and then
you would take a written test.
(06:28):
The written test would cut thatfield of people that you had to
compete against in half.
And so you'd show up on usuallya field day kind of, and there
(06:49):
would still be 200, 300 peoplecarrying the hose up four
flights of stairs and thendragging the dummy and then
running a mile or a mile and ahalf depending on what apartment
you were with.
And so those scores, along withyour written score, placed you
on a list for five or six jobs.
It's almost foreign now that Ithink about it, on a list for
five or six jobs.
It's almost foreign now that Ithink about it.
I mean, that is so long ago andnow recruiting and retention
(07:10):
has changed so much.
But I digress a little bit.
I did not plan on going intocorrections.
It was kind of an accident orit was kind of a job to get me
by with insurance for the familyuntil I had the opportunity to
get into one of those other jobs.
So I'm going to tell you Iwasn't happy.
I wasn't happy at work.
(07:33):
I see a lot of what he talkedabout there.
You know you get stuck on oneof those off shifts when you're
new and you're getting ready tospend eight hours doing your job
and then you're getting readyto.
You spend eight hours doingyour job, but then you're
getting ready to go home and andsomebody bangs in and now you
got to stay at another shiftOvertime's, not doing the
corrections.
It's always been there and uh,it's uh.
(07:55):
So the world does get tough.
It takes away working incorrections kind of takes away
the I don't want to say that thebelief in good in some ways.
I mean I wasn't raised uparound crime and criminals and
(08:15):
that type of stuff.
I wasn't raised up in aneighborhood or a family who
promoted that.
So it was kind of a new thing tosee that and at times it was
depressing, you know, to seepeople treat people that way.
I'd seen.
(08:35):
I mean I'd seen violence andI've talked about this before,
you know.
I mean I'd seen violence andI've talked about this before.
You know, friday night on thesquare, absolutely, we were
violent to each other.
We got in fights.
We got in fights at parties.
That was normal stuff.
But to see people actually tryand kill each other and to see
the thought and the depravityand the lack of compassion for a
(09:02):
human being kind of changes youand it gets you a little
depressed.
And so I went through that.
I went through that quite a bit.
I understand where he's comingfrom and sometimes that stuff
stacks on top of each other.
I can absolutely.
I remember the first time I wasattacked.
He said he got punched in theface.
I'd been in all kinds of fights.
(09:27):
That wasn't, it wasn't nothingto have physical contact with
another man.
You know we fought all the time.
But the first time somebody goton top of me and was hitting me
, trying to injure me to thepoint that I think you know they
were trying to kill me or atleast put me in the hospital for
a while.
And being attacked at thatlevel really does something to
your psyche.
(09:47):
Most of us haven't experiencedthat before.
Even if you've been in fightsuntil you've had someone on top
of you, until you've had someoneattack you, until you've had
someone bring a weapon to afight and attempt to take your
life, it changes your outlook.
It changes the way you feelabout a lot of stuff.
(10:08):
It kind of sets you back alittle bit.
Is this job worth it?
Holy mackerel?
What am I doing here?
You know I went through a lotof those feelings.
I absolutely did.
So I understand what he'stalking about.
And then you start compoundingthat with, you know, mandatories
and getting looked over forpromotion.
(10:29):
I remember those days, state ofMissouri, they overlooked me 11
times for sergeant and I neverdid get sergeant.
I ended up going to the FederalBureau of Prisons.
So I understand that even whenI got into the Federal Bureau of
Prisons and was working at theFederal Medical Center, the
(10:53):
consensus at the time was thatthey don't promote from within.
So even though I was doing thejob, doing it well, I was acting
lieutenant on a regular basis.
Despite all that 11, no, seventimes.
Seven times I got passed overfor lieutenant.
(11:14):
And what do you do?
What do you do when all thatstuff's going on?
You know, if you guys haven'tdone it and I always I love
Jocko Wilnick's books, extremeOwnership, leif Babin I
shouldn't leave out Leif there.
He is the co-author of that.
But I won't listen to the Jockopodcast when I can.
(11:37):
But if you get on YouTube,there's a YouTube video by Jocko
and it's called Good and it'skind of the way I began to
understand that I had control ofthose bad things.
If you listen to it and justI'm not going to take it all
away but basically he says whenbad things happen, or when
(11:58):
things aren't going your way, orwhen you don't get the
promotion, he tells people good,this is a moment for you to
improve, this is a moment foryou to get better, this is a
moment for you to get moretraining.
And so when I got down and Iremember the day I've written
about it in Finding your PurposeI walked out in the parking lot
(12:22):
and I'd been working 16-hourshifts since I don't even know
when, and I couldn't rememberwhere my car was at and I
couldn't remember what day ofthe week it was.
I couldn't remember what wasanything, I was just so out of
it, I had been beat down andthat's when I decided I needed
to make a change.
My change was finding a passion, and a lot of people are going
(12:44):
to say, wow, how do you findpassion working in prison?
And, interestingly enough, youknow I've grown with this
podcast because I've got to meetand interview so many people
and I've got to hear otheraspects and other views, and
there are a lot of people whofind purpose, who find passion
in working in our career, incorrections and helping people.
(13:10):
You know, reentry, getting guysto where they're going to go
back out and be productivemembers of society, and you know
they have a real passion forthat.
I'm going to be honest with youI don't.
I don't have this huge passionto go in there and change a lot
of these guys' lives or to try.
(13:30):
Um, I wish them the best, um,I'll give them everything they
got coming while they're inside,but that's not my passion.
My passion, what I found, wasstaff and I learned that, a lot
of the experiences that I had.
I got to start off at apenitentiary and saw a lot
quickly, learned a lot quicklyabout incidents and crisis, and
(13:53):
so I was able to bring a lot ofthe experience I had doing that
and teach other staff and helpthem to become safer at work.
And so that's where my passionwent was the instruction, the
teaching.
I became a firearms instructor,became a disturbance control
instructor, riot controlinstructor, so that's where my
(14:15):
passion came from, was myability to get in there and help
staff and to make them saferand to get them through the day
with the skills that they neededto handle this stuff that
nobody truly understands untilthey're standing in the middle
of it.
So that became a passion for me.
And then, later on, when I didget promoted, I think my passion
(14:37):
became serving people that workfor me, doing the best to help
them get promoted, doing thebest to get them through their
day in a way that would makethem productive and less
stressed and better human beingswhen they walked out for their
family, because to me that'smore where my focus was.
(14:59):
You know, it matters who youare when you walk home, does it
not?
And I'm not going to lie, thatwas a struggle, that was an
absolute struggle for me.
Corrections changed me, and notfor the better in many ways.
I'm not going to lie to you.
I do this podcast, I go teach,I give people the knowledge, the
(15:22):
tips, the tricks, the thingsthat I learned that got me
through.
But don't think for a minute,corrections didn't change me.
I was watching a PBS programjust the other night and they
were talking about.
It was about JRR Tolkien, theLord of the Rings author and
they were talking about the.
It was about JRR Tolkien, theLord of the Rings author, and
they were talking about thedifference between myth and
imagination.
(15:43):
And I do believe that one ofthe things that was stolen from
me was my imagination a lot ofit.
I've really had to fight tokeep my creativity, to keep a
certain lightheartedness.
You know, I see a lot of peoplethat get to go through life and
they have this certainlightheartedness.
(16:03):
You know, I see a lot of peoplethat get to go through life and
they have this certainlightheartedness about life.
Um, that's something I have tolook for.
It doesn't come to me easily.
It doesn't come to me, um,without work and that it wasn't
always that way, and maybe partof that is losing your youth,
but I absolutely believe part ofthat came from working in
(16:23):
corrections.
So what can I tell him?
He's dealing with things on topof things, on top of things
Getting hit.
You know the mandatory overtime, getting looked over for
promotion.
Well, the number one thing Ican tell him is to find passion
and just figure out where thatis.
(16:45):
Is it helping other staff?
You may be able to find it.
Helping inmates, you may beable to find it.
I knew people who had a verystrong Christian faith.
I've had a couple of them onhere and they took that
Christian faith to work and thatwas their passion was to bring
that to maybe people who hadn'tbeen exposed to it before.
So that's my advice for him isto go find a passion.
(17:11):
And for some people and I had alittle bit of this you can find
your passion at home andunderstand that when you go to
work for eight or 16 hours, thatthat is supporting your true
passion.
And I know a few of those guys.
I know a guy that I don't knowhow many mountains he's climbed.
He's done a lot of hiking andhe's climbed some you know
(17:35):
pretty impressive mountains anddone that kind of stuff.
And his passion is outside ofwork.
He comes to work to support it.
So figure out what that passionis.
Figure out how you're going toget through that day with a
thought other than what's goingon at the moment.
(17:57):
And I don't mean check out.
You know we have to be, we haveto be ready, we have to be
situationally aware, but to havesomething that drives you
forward every day, whatever thatmay be and it doesn't come easy
, sometimes it's a search.
I had to search for itAbsolutely.
So I talked to another formersupervisor and him and I had a
(18:23):
discussion and he dropped me alittle line and I'll just read
it off here and we'll talk aboutit.
He said In the field ofcorrections and detention, new
staff walk in and are trained,or begin training expecting the
bad because of where they work.
Now, as supervisors, we allhave to document all the bad.
In reports, we report all thebad and in briefings and emails
(18:47):
all of the information is aboutthe bad.
So who's reporting the good?
He said.
A suggestion that I like is tothose who are looking for the
missing link between today's newofficers and today's current
leadership is training that willmake reporting good a part of
your operation.
Train staff in reporting, getstaff to communicate more, build
(19:11):
teams, groom the next leadersand recognize the good and I
think he's spot on there.
How do we find the good at work?
Well, one of the things I thinkhe's leaning towards there is
culture, and I had a and I'mgoing to go to another
conversation here and then I'mgoing to hopefully bring them
together in a coherent sentence.
(19:33):
But I had another officer talkto me last week, while I was in
class and he'd had about a yearand a half in, and he said that
they had some policy and I'mparaphrasing, so don't don't
hold me to the hold my feet tothe fire on this but his policy
said something along the linesof phrasing here a little bit,
(19:54):
so don't take me right at myword, but he said their policy
states that when you're dealingwith an inmate who may be, you
know, irritated or may begetting ready to become violent,
that you should try to engagethem with de-escalation
communication and get them to goahead and submit to the
(20:15):
restraints and where you could,you know, move them to a place
that's more secure.
He said the next paragraph saidif that's not effective, you
will put hands on and useopen-hand techniques to gain
control of this inmate.
And he said I have a problemwith the word will because I
(20:35):
find that it causes some of thestaff to think this is the next
step, that there is no otheroptions there, that the
de-escalation isn't highlightedas much.
And he asked me you know,should it be the word will or
shall, or should we havedifferent words in there?
And my answer to him I think hehad to think about it a little
(20:57):
bit, but my answer was I don'tthink it's as much about the
words specifically in thatpolicy as it is the culture.
The culture is what's going todecide whether or not you have
an officer with a punishmentmentality, who takes those words
literally and tries tophysically engage because he has
(21:19):
permission from the policy.
I think your culture also willspeak to other people and say
this is where I start, this iswhat I can do, but they're going
to see what other people do,what the supervisors expect,
what the warden has laid out asexpectations, what he sees
(21:44):
supervisors do, what he seessenior officers do, and that
culture is going to dictate,more so than policy, because
policy is made to be interpretedright.
All policy is to be interpretedright.
All policy is I can take policyand I can focus it this way,
(22:05):
because that's what I want to do, or I can take policy and I can
focus it this way.
What matters is the culture.
What matters is what thesupervisors show, what the
senior officers show.
That's what you're going tohave people latch on to, that's
what you're going to have peoplemake part of their way of work.
(22:26):
So that's my answer with thegood, finding the good.
I once again believe it'sculture.
We've lost a lot of this.
We've lost a lot of this,losing a lot of the staff that
have been around for a long time.
A breakdown in communicationsin our society is causing some
(22:53):
of this, because we don'tregularly engage each other the
way they used to, and I know I'mgoing to have a couple of.
When I came in, they didn'ttalk to me for my first six
months.
They may not have came up andtalked to you about you know
what's your favorite footballteam, but they talk to you all
the time.
They showed you all the time.
They brought you around when itwas time to do stuff so that
(23:16):
you could observe and see how itwas done.
No, they didn't care about yourfeelings.
They didn't care about yourfavorite football team.
They didn't care what you didthis weekend, but inside that
institution, those old headscared about what happened in
that institution.
They had a broader view.
Okay, it wasn't about you andyour housing unit.
(23:37):
It was about the safety of thepublic Inside that.
It was about the safety of thestaff inside the institution.
It was about preventing escapes.
It was about preventing murders.
It was about the big stuff.
So when they tell me theydidn't talk to us back, then,
yes, they did.
I know they did and we need tobring some of that back.
(23:59):
If you go to classes these days,you're going to leadership
classes is what I'm talkingabout.
You know you're going to havediscussions where you talk about
impacting and influencing yourstaff and you know Gary York and
I, a couple of episodes ago,had a great talk about this, and
you know Gary York and I, acouple of episodes ago, had a
great talk about this.
Do your staff believe you'regenuine when you walk by and
(24:22):
check on them during the day?
Or do you walk by, wave yourhand and say, hey, what's up?
And go on by?
Do you open the logbook, makesure they're doing what they're
supposed to and then walk on by?
Or do you stop for a minute andsay, how are you doing?
You know that's a little moreof what's expected today, but
how many of you walk in thereand say, step over here and let
me show you a good way to dothis?
How many of you quiz I'mtalking to supervisors here how
(24:45):
many of you quiz your staff?
That's one of the best thingsyou can do to train your staff.
Everybody thinks training hasto be okay.
You'll have a day off onWednesday, you're going to
report to the training centerand you're going to have a class
.
That's not where trainingoccurs.
Training occurs every day, onthe shift, from the senior
(25:06):
officers, from the supervisorsand from the leadership, and
they should be training.
I worked with a warden he stillworks in corrections and he was
great and everybody will tellyou every time he saw you he had
a question for you what doespolicy say about the number of
(25:27):
times that we do this?
And he never asked a questionthat he didn't already know the
answer to.
I never heard him do that, buthe would ask questions every
time he saw you and you didn'teven realize it.
But you were getting taught,you were getting these important
things put in your head and Iremember you know, just it's the
little things.
(25:48):
I remember the old guy settingthe example and you know hey,
come on, I'm going to go dorounds, come with me.
So you go walk with them.
You know they're checking thedoor handles Every time you go
around.
You know they're checking thedoor handles.
And then they'll stop and sayyou know why we do that.
Why do we do door checks,what's the worst-case scenario,
(26:12):
and a little bit of criticalthinking there.
They make you think aboutwhat's possible, why it's
important, because it only takesonce.
We know that once and we're inthe funny paper.
And then the other thing, Iguess, that I I heard about this
week and uh, that I want totalk about, is working with bad
(26:34):
bosses, and so I've had peopleask me.
You know, I got, and he kind ofmentioned it.
The guy mentioned that, youknow, some people had been
promoted over some people whodeserved it.
Does that happen?
Absolutely, it happens.
It happens all the time.
But what do we do?
(26:54):
Now?
We're working for a boss whomay not be the best boss, who
may have got promoted too fast.
What do we do?
Do we just walk away from that,ignore it?
Do we help them?
How do you feel about that?
Well, here's what I'm going totell you.
You can lead from the bottom,you can lead up.
(27:15):
You can lead without rank.
From the bottom, you can leadup, you can lead without rank.
I've known hundreds ofcorrectional officers who led
without rank.
I think of one right now thateverybody looked to, everybody
did, because he was a leader, hewas a correctional officer he
(27:39):
was a senior officer Came in,did his work, but he led
everybody through the culture.
He set the on-the-spot training.
He gave the way he talked topeople, the way he talked to
inmates.
So you can absolutely affectthe culture, the institution,
your job.
(27:59):
It's kind of tough, absolutelyit's kind of tough.
What normally gets in the way ofall this, what normally gets in
the way of you leading up, mostof the time, I think it's pride
.
It's pride and ego, right.
Well, why do I want to help him?
Why do I want to help that guy?
I'm not going to get anythingout of this.
(28:19):
You are going to get somethingout of this if you play your
cards right.
Making the boss look good isalways good for you.
Always.
If the boss looks good, theagency looks good.
If the agency looks good, yourdepartment looks good.
It's always good to support theboss, even if you don't like
(28:41):
them, even if you don't believein everything they're telling
you, as long as it's not illegalor immoral.
It doesn't matter whether ornot it's exactly what you
believe.
You'll have your opportunitysomeday, but right now you need
to support that boss.
You need to support thatlieutenant, that captain, that
warden.
You don't have to agree withthem, but you should be doing
(29:04):
your job the best you can,making them shine the best you
can, and what usually gets inthe way of that ego?
I want people to notice me.
Well, have them notice you as agood follower, because what do
all leaders need?
All leaders need good followers, and if you're not a good
(29:29):
follower, the chances are you'renot going to be a good leader
someday.
How do you like that?
The other thing I want to talkabout have you trained your
staff to make good decisions?
And we talked a little bitabout on-the-spot training.
Have you trained your staff tomake good decisions?
People get so upset with theirwell, why'd you do it that way?
(29:50):
And you've even got bosses whoimmediately want to write
somebody up or they want to putit in their eval.
Well, they did that wrong.
Let's stop.
And this is back to Jocko andextreme ownership.
Why did they do it wrong?
Is it truly a person who's notdoing their job intentionally?
Is it truly a person who is abad worker?
(30:13):
Or is this a person who wasn'tgiven the tools by who?
You, the leadership that wasn'tgiven the tools to succeed?
If you want good decisions outof your officers.
If you want good decisions outof your sergeants, if you want
(30:37):
good decisions out of yourlieutenants, you've got to
provide them not only with thechance to make decisions, but
you've got to let them fix thosedecisions.
You've got to let them.
You've got to not only givethem the environment with which
to make good decisions in okay,you're the supervisor, you're
guiding them, you're leadingthem, putting them in that
(30:58):
position and then allowing themto do what Make decisions.
Now, here's where we usually getin trouble as leaders, as new
leaders older leaders, I think,get this better but as new
leaders, you're going to look atthe decisions they make and
you're going to say, well,that's not the decision I'd make
.
Are you always perfect?
(31:18):
If you are perfect, go aheadand turn this off and move on,
because I don't have anythingfor you.
If you're not perfect,understand that your way is not
the only way.
Once again, ego and pride iscoming in here.
Agree with me.
It's your ego and it's yourpride that says you're the only
one that knows how to make adecision about that.
(31:41):
There are many ways to make adecision about.
You know more than one way toskin a cat.
You've heard that all your lifethere, absolutely is.
Is there only one way to removean inmate from a cell?
Absolutely not De-escalation.
Right Time, less lethal, rollthe door and send the team in.
Are any of those decisionswrong?
(32:04):
Not by their self.
All of those are things thatare allowed within policy.
So let them make theirdecisions, guide them.
Don't let them step off intosomething.
But just because it's not whatyou want, it's not what you
think is the best, doesn't meanit's wrong.
(32:24):
Have you communicated yourexpectations?
Do these staff know how to makedecisions within the
expectations?
And I'm talking mainly to maybea captain or a warden, someone
who's over you know a largerarea.
Expectations are needed lower,but usually you're closer to
that.
Do they know the expectations?
And I'm not talking policy.
Policy is not expectations.
Expectations is culture.
(32:47):
Have you set the culture?
If you have great culture, mostof the problems go away, do
they not?
You don't have to look forpeople doing the wrong thing,
because most people are doingthe right thing and the ones
that aren't stand out like asore thumb right.
Do your officers know you?
(33:08):
Why would that be important?
Why is it important for yourofficers to know you?
My opinion some people maydisagree, but the greatest
leaders I worked with, the oneswho I respected the most.
I felt like I knew somethingabout them.
I knew their character.
I knew the culture they wanted.
I knew their expectations, andwhat do you think that caused?
(33:31):
When I made decisions?
I didn't want to disappointthem.
That's the truth that came backthrough my head.
How's this person that Irespect, how's this person who I
want to follow?
How does this person that?
How are they going to feelabout this?
You may have a little bit ofthat.
I mean, it's cultural.
We have that within ourfamilies, do we not?
(33:52):
Absolutely, you want to dogreat so that your family's
proud of you.
Your community, your culture atwork does the same thing.
So do your staff know you?
Do they understand the mission?
Do they know your expectations?
Do you let them make decisionswithin that framework?
If you do, you're going to havea great institution.
(34:14):
You're going to have a greatdepartment.
You're going to have a greatteam.
You're going to have a greatdepartment.
You're going to have a greatteam wherever you're leading at.
So, anyway, I hope you gotsomething out of that.
It's just I brought a lot ofthings together.
It's been busy the last monthor so, like I said, class after
class.
So I've got to talk to a lot ofpeople.
I see a lot of peoplestruggling in corrections, but I
(34:36):
still see a lot of hope.
I see a lot of peoplestruggling in corrections, but I
still see a lot of hope.
I see a lot of hope for thepeople that are there.
I see a lot of.
You know it's easy to shineright now.
If you want to go to the top,go, set your goals, find your
priorities, become a goodfollower and then become a good
(34:56):
leader.
If you want to be a warden, ifyou want to be an administrator,
if you want to, whatever it isyou want to do in corrections
right now, the doors are open toyou.
That doesn't mean it's nottough.
You're going to deal with baddays.
You're going to deal with thestresses.
You're going to deal with thenastiness and the criminality of
(35:19):
what we see every day.
So you got to find your passion.
You got to have that so thatyou can carry it with you in
those dark times.
I hope that helps a few of you.
I hope you have a great day.
So that's it for the PrisonOfficer Podcast.
I'll see you next episode.
Before we get off here, I'd liketo thank one more of our
sponsors.
If you haven't done it, go towwwomnirtlscom.
(35:46):
That's omnirtlscom.
It is the best way to track andmonitor the inmates in your
jail or prison.
So go check out the website.
I'm proud to have them as asponsor on here also.
Have a great day.
I'll talk to you later.
Well, hello and welcome back to the Prison
Officer Podcast.
My name's Mike Cantrell.
I've got a kind of a grab bagof stuff I'm going to talk about
today.
I've been extremely busy, youknow, with.
I teach classes.
I've been out with Pepperballseveral times in the last couple
of months, which I want to saythank you to Pepperball for
(00:20):
sponsoring this podcast.
If you haven't done it yet,take a look at wwwpepperballcom.
I know that, uh, we have hadsome really fun classes.
Um, if you haven't been to apepperball class or became a
pepperball instructor, I reallysuggest, uh, that you uh reach
out to your agency and see ifthey'll let you become an
(00:40):
instructor, because it's a greatclass.
Um, become an instructorbecause it's a great class.
Of course, we get to go out onthe range.
The last class we had, theybrought a tow vehicle that was
going to get crushed, so we gotto take the glass breakers and
do different things shooting outthe windows, seeing how that
worked, shooting out therearview mirrors on our approach
(01:03):
, showing the guys how to dothat.
So we do a lot of that.
It's really hands-on.
You're going to have two daysof a lot of fun.
So, if you get the chance, goto wwwpepperballcom and take a
look at the classes that weoffer and the products that we
offer.
There's a lot of new ones ifyou haven't been there in a few
(01:24):
months.
Offer and the products that weoffer.
There's a lot of new ones ifyou haven't been there in a few
months.
So the other classes I've beenteaching have been with Command
Presence.
I think I told you guys that afew months ago, or actually
first of the year, I wasapproached by Command Presence.
They've been doing lawenforcement training for a long
time and I hope here in a coupleof podcasts I'm going to have
Michael Warren on here and wewe're going to talk about the
(01:46):
direction that Command Presencehas went to include corrections
into some of the best leadership, self-improvement, motivational
training that I've ever seen,and we're going to bring that to
corrections and we're alreadydoing that.
We're going to bring that tocorrections and we're already
doing that.
I just finished up in the OttawaSheriff's Department up in
(02:08):
Michigan West Olive, michiganand so we had a couple of great
days up there teaching, reportwriting depositions and
testimony for corrections, andso things have been just really
busy.
Got a couple of things Beendealing with a kidney stone.
I don't know if you guys wantto hear that or not, but that's
(02:32):
slowed me down on a few things.
But I've got some.
I had to put off a few of thespeakers that we've got coming
on, a few of the people we'regoing to interview, but
hopefully this week or next weekI will get them in here.
I've got some really goodinterviews coming up, lined up
for the podcast.
Kind of finish up the year withright.
We're winding down, holidaysare coming, stress is coming
(02:56):
right.
So well, you know, this week Igot some communications and I
love it when I get emails orwhen somebody you know gets on
the website and they send me a.
You know, this week I got somecommunications and I love it
when I get emails or whensomebody gets on the website and
they send me a note or tells mewhat's going on.
I love hearing that stuff.
But one I want to share withyou today and of course I don't
(03:16):
do names, I don't want to putanybody out there, but I talked
to a guy a year or so ago and hewas starting at a correctional
facility, a juvenilecorrectional facility and so we
had some discussions about howbest to approach that and he
reached out to me the other dayand I just want to.
I want to read this.
(03:37):
So there was a riot in one ofour units a few months ago.
I got punched and headbutted inthe face.
Since then, things have notbeen the same.
My ability to get work donehasn't been the same.
We also recently had someonejump ranks from sergeant to
captain.
It's taken some toll amongthose who got passed over.
(03:58):
It's been more of a toxic workenvironment.
Five or six of our sergeantshave been out on work injury and
it's caused a lot of mandatoryovertime for me working third
shift and then being held againfor first shift At our facility.
They won't let us use lesslethals, even though most of
these kids have adult bodies andthey have attacked us before.
(04:20):
You know, justice is slow andbecause we can't or they won't
charge them, we have to wait outtheir sentence and then charge
them or their juvenile sentencesvacated.
Do you have any tips withgetting past some of these
mental roadblocks?
Wow, you know it's not unique.
That's not a unique thing thatI hear.
(04:41):
You know, I go out and I teachand I get to talk to
correctional officers and I getto talk to people who are still
working.
You know, I realized that Ihave retired, my 30 plus years
is done, but I still have a lotof connection with the people
who work and in many ways thework environment's changed, but
(05:04):
in many ways it hasn't.
And so what do I mean by that?
Well, I mean that the thingsthat worked before, the good
things still work, still producegood results, produce good
culture, good institutions, goodofficers.
(05:25):
You know, when I first started,I didn't want to be a
correctional officer.
It was a get-by job.
I'm not going to lie to you.
I hear very few people.
I've met a couple since Istarted doing the podcast that
said in third grade they raisedtheir hand and said I'm going to
go into law enforcement, I wantto work in jail.
I've actually talked to acouple of people, but that
(05:45):
wasn't me.
That was never my intent or mygoal.
My father was a firefighter andI was expecting to go into
either the fire department or togo into, possibly, the police
department.
We knew a lot of officers thatmy father hung around with, so
that was the direction I wasgoing, and at the time no, you
(06:08):
guys don't realize this, but atthe time when there was five or
six openings for the police orthe fire department.
There was five or 600 peoplewho applied for those jobs,
which just sounds crazy now, butit's the absolute truth.
You'd show up and more thanlikely you would apply, and then
you would take a written test.
(06:28):
The written test would cut thatfield of people that you had to
compete against in half.
And so you'd show up on usuallya field day kind of, and there
(06:49):
would still be 200, 300 peoplecarrying the hose up four
flights of stairs and thendragging the dummy and then
running a mile or a mile and ahalf depending on what apartment
you were with.
And so those scores, along withyour written score, placed you
on a list for five or six jobs.
It's almost foreign now that Ithink about it, on a list for
five or six jobs.
It's almost foreign now that Ithink about it.
I mean, that is so long ago andnow recruiting and retention
(07:10):
has changed so much.
But I digress a little bit.
I did not plan on going intocorrections.
It was kind of an accident orit was kind of a job to get me
by with insurance for the familyuntil I had the opportunity to
get into one of those other jobs.
So I'm going to tell you Iwasn't happy.
I wasn't happy at work.
(07:33):
I see a lot of what he talkedabout there.
You know you get stuck on oneof those off shifts when you're
new and you're getting ready tospend eight hours doing your job
and then you're getting readyto.
You spend eight hours doingyour job, but then you're
getting ready to go home and andsomebody bangs in and now you
got to stay at another shiftOvertime's, not doing the
corrections.
It's always been there and uh,it's uh.
(07:55):
So the world does get tough.
It takes away working incorrections kind of takes away
the I don't want to say that thebelief in good in some ways.
I mean I wasn't raised uparound crime and criminals and
(08:15):
that type of stuff.
I wasn't raised up in aneighborhood or a family who
promoted that.
So it was kind of a new thing tosee that and at times it was
depressing, you know, to seepeople treat people that way.
I'd seen.
(08:35):
I mean I'd seen violence andI've talked about this before,
you know.
I mean I'd seen violence andI've talked about this before.
You know, friday night on thesquare, absolutely, we were
violent to each other.
We got in fights.
We got in fights at parties.
That was normal stuff.
But to see people actually tryand kill each other and to see
the thought and the depravityand the lack of compassion for a
(09:02):
human being kind of changes youand it gets you a little
depressed.
And so I went through that.
I went through that quite a bit.
I understand where he's comingfrom and sometimes that stuff
stacks on top of each other.
I can absolutely.
I remember the first time I wasattacked.
He said he got punched in theface.
I'd been in all kinds of fights.
(09:27):
That wasn't, it wasn't nothingto have physical contact with
another man.
You know we fought all the time.
But the first time somebody goton top of me and was hitting me
, trying to injure me to thepoint that I think you know they
were trying to kill me or atleast put me in the hospital for
a while.
And being attacked at thatlevel really does something to
your psyche.
(09:47):
Most of us haven't experiencedthat before.
Even if you've been in fightsuntil you've had someone on top
of you, until you've had someoneattack you, until you've had
someone bring a weapon to afight and attempt to take your
life, it changes your outlook.
It changes the way you feelabout a lot of stuff.
(10:08):
It kind of sets you back alittle bit.
Is this job worth it?
Holy mackerel?
What am I doing here?
You know I went through a lotof those feelings.
I absolutely did.
So I understand what he'stalking about.
And then you start compoundingthat with, you know, mandatories
and getting looked over forpromotion.
(10:29):
I remember those days, state ofMissouri, they overlooked me 11
times for sergeant and I neverdid get sergeant.
I ended up going to the FederalBureau of Prisons.
So I understand that even whenI got into the Federal Bureau of
Prisons and was working at theFederal Medical Center, the
(10:53):
consensus at the time was thatthey don't promote from within.
So even though I was doing thejob, doing it well, I was acting
lieutenant on a regular basis.
Despite all that 11, no, seventimes.
Seven times I got passed overfor lieutenant.
(11:14):
And what do you do?
What do you do when all thatstuff's going on?
You know, if you guys haven'tdone it and I always I love
Jocko Wilnick's books, extremeOwnership, leif Babin I
shouldn't leave out Leif there.
He is the co-author of that.
But I won't listen to the Jockopodcast when I can.
(11:37):
But if you get on YouTube,there's a YouTube video by Jocko
and it's called Good and it'skind of the way I began to
understand that I had control ofthose bad things.
If you listen to it and justI'm not going to take it all
away but basically he says whenbad things happen, or when
(11:58):
things aren't going your way, orwhen you don't get the
promotion, he tells people good,this is a moment for you to
improve, this is a moment foryou to get better, this is a
moment for you to get moretraining.
And so when I got down and Iremember the day I've written
about it in Finding your PurposeI walked out in the parking lot
(12:22):
and I'd been working 16-hourshifts since I don't even know
when, and I couldn't rememberwhere my car was at and I
couldn't remember what day ofthe week it was.
I couldn't remember what wasanything, I was just so out of
it, I had been beat down andthat's when I decided I needed
to make a change.
My change was finding a passion, and a lot of people are going
(12:44):
to say, wow, how do you findpassion working in prison?
And, interestingly enough, youknow I've grown with this
podcast because I've got to meetand interview so many people
and I've got to hear otheraspects and other views, and
there are a lot of people whofind purpose, who find passion
in working in our career, incorrections and helping people.
(13:10):
You know, reentry, getting guysto where they're going to go
back out and be productivemembers of society, and you know
they have a real passion forthat.
I'm going to be honest with youI don't.
I don't have this huge passionto go in there and change a lot
of these guys' lives or to try.
(13:30):
Um, I wish them the best, um,I'll give them everything they
got coming while they're inside,but that's not my passion.
My passion, what I found, wasstaff and I learned that, a lot
of the experiences that I had.
I got to start off at apenitentiary and saw a lot
quickly, learned a lot quicklyabout incidents and crisis, and
(13:53):
so I was able to bring a lot ofthe experience I had doing that
and teach other staff and helpthem to become safer at work.
And so that's where my passionwent was the instruction, the
teaching.
I became a firearms instructor,became a disturbance control
instructor, riot controlinstructor, so that's where my
(14:15):
passion came from, was myability to get in there and help
staff and to make them saferand to get them through the day
with the skills that they neededto handle this stuff that
nobody truly understands untilthey're standing in the middle
of it.
So that became a passion for me.
And then, later on, when I didget promoted, I think my passion
(14:37):
became serving people that workfor me, doing the best to help
them get promoted, doing thebest to get them through their
day in a way that would makethem productive and less
stressed and better human beingswhen they walked out for their
family, because to me that'smore where my focus was.
(14:59):
You know, it matters who youare when you walk home, does it
not?
And I'm not going to lie, thatwas a struggle, that was an
absolute struggle for me.
Corrections changed me, and notfor the better in many ways.
I'm not going to lie to you.
I do this podcast, I go teach,I give people the knowledge, the
(15:22):
tips, the tricks, the thingsthat I learned that got me
through.
But don't think for a minute,corrections didn't change me.
I was watching a PBS programjust the other night and they
were talking about.
It was about JRR Tolkien, theLord of the Rings author and
they were talking about the.
It was about JRR Tolkien, theLord of the Rings author, and
they were talking about thedifference between myth and
imagination.
(15:43):
And I do believe that one ofthe things that was stolen from
me was my imagination a lot ofit.
I've really had to fight tokeep my creativity, to keep a
certain lightheartedness.
You know, I see a lot of peoplethat get to go through life and
they have this certainlightheartedness.
(16:03):
You know, I see a lot of peoplethat get to go through life and
they have this certainlightheartedness about life.
Um, that's something I have tolook for.
It doesn't come to me easily.
It doesn't come to me, um,without work and that it wasn't
always that way, and maybe partof that is losing your youth,
but I absolutely believe part ofthat came from working in
(16:23):
corrections.
So what can I tell him?
He's dealing with things on topof things, on top of things
Getting hit.
You know the mandatory overtime, getting looked over for
promotion.
Well, the number one thing Ican tell him is to find passion
and just figure out where thatis.
(16:45):
Is it helping other staff?
You may be able to find it.
Helping inmates, you may beable to find it.
I knew people who had a verystrong Christian faith.
I've had a couple of them onhere and they took that
Christian faith to work and thatwas their passion was to bring
that to maybe people who hadn'tbeen exposed to it before.
So that's my advice for him isto go find a passion.
(17:11):
And for some people and I had alittle bit of this you can find
your passion at home andunderstand that when you go to
work for eight or 16 hours, thatthat is supporting your true
passion.
And I know a few of those guys.
I know a guy that I don't knowhow many mountains he's climbed.
He's done a lot of hiking andhe's climbed some you know
(17:35):
pretty impressive mountains anddone that kind of stuff.
And his passion is outside ofwork.
He comes to work to support it.
So figure out what that passionis.
Figure out how you're going toget through that day with a
thought other than what's goingon at the moment.
(17:57):
And I don't mean check out.
You know we have to be, we haveto be ready, we have to be
situationally aware, but to havesomething that drives you
forward every day, whatever thatmay be and it doesn't come easy
, sometimes it's a search.
I had to search for itAbsolutely.
So I talked to another formersupervisor and him and I had a
(18:23):
discussion and he dropped me alittle line and I'll just read
it off here and we'll talk aboutit.
He said In the field ofcorrections and detention, new
staff walk in and are trained,or begin training expecting the
bad because of where they work.
Now, as supervisors, we allhave to document all the bad.
In reports, we report all thebad and in briefings and emails
(18:47):
all of the information is aboutthe bad.
So who's reporting the good?
He said.
A suggestion that I like is tothose who are looking for the
missing link between today's newofficers and today's current
leadership is training that willmake reporting good a part of
your operation.
Train staff in reporting, getstaff to communicate more, build
(19:11):
teams, groom the next leadersand recognize the good and I
think he's spot on there.
How do we find the good at work?
Well, one of the things I thinkhe's leaning towards there is
culture, and I had a and I'mgoing to go to another
conversation here and then I'mgoing to hopefully bring them
together in a coherent sentence.
(19:33):
But I had another officer talkto me last week, while I was in
class and he'd had about a yearand a half in, and he said that
they had some policy and I'mparaphrasing, so don't don't
hold me to the hold my feet tothe fire on this but his policy
said something along the linesof phrasing here a little bit,
(19:54):
so don't take me right at myword, but he said their policy
states that when you're dealingwith an inmate who may be, you
know, irritated or may begetting ready to become violent,
that you should try to engagethem with de-escalation
communication and get them to goahead and submit to the
(20:15):
restraints and where you could,you know, move them to a place
that's more secure.
He said the next paragraph saidif that's not effective, you
will put hands on and useopen-hand techniques to gain
control of this inmate.
And he said I have a problemwith the word will because I
(20:35):
find that it causes some of thestaff to think this is the next
step, that there is no otheroptions there, that the
de-escalation isn't highlightedas much.
And he asked me you know,should it be the word will or
shall, or should we havedifferent words in there?
And my answer to him I think hehad to think about it a little
(20:57):
bit, but my answer was I don'tthink it's as much about the
words specifically in thatpolicy as it is the culture.
The culture is what's going todecide whether or not you have
an officer with a punishmentmentality, who takes those words
literally and tries tophysically engage because he has
(21:19):
permission from the policy.
I think your culture also willspeak to other people and say
this is where I start, this iswhat I can do, but they're going
to see what other people do,what the supervisors expect,
what the warden has laid out asexpectations, what he sees
(21:44):
supervisors do, what he seessenior officers do, and that
culture is going to dictate,more so than policy, because
policy is made to be interpretedright.
All policy is to be interpretedright.
All policy is I can take policyand I can focus it this way,
(22:05):
because that's what I want to do, or I can take policy and I can
focus it this way.
What matters is the culture.
What matters is what thesupervisors show, what the
senior officers show.
That's what you're going tohave people latch on to, that's
what you're going to have peoplemake part of their way of work.
(22:26):
So that's my answer with thegood, finding the good.
I once again believe it'sculture.
We've lost a lot of this.
We've lost a lot of this,losing a lot of the staff that
have been around for a long time.
A breakdown in communicationsin our society is causing some
(22:53):
of this, because we don'tregularly engage each other the
way they used to, and I know I'mgoing to have a couple of.
When I came in, they didn'ttalk to me for my first six
months.
They may not have came up andtalked to you about you know
what's your favorite footballteam, but they talk to you all
the time.
They showed you all the time.
They brought you around when itwas time to do stuff so that
(23:16):
you could observe and see how itwas done.
No, they didn't care about yourfeelings.
They didn't care about yourfavorite football team.
They didn't care what you didthis weekend, but inside that
institution, those old headscared about what happened in
that institution.
They had a broader view.
Okay, it wasn't about you andyour housing unit.
(23:37):
It was about the safety of thepublic Inside that.
It was about the safety of thestaff inside the institution.
It was about preventing escapes.
It was about preventing murders.
It was about the big stuff.
So when they tell me theydidn't talk to us back, then,
yes, they did.
I know they did and we need tobring some of that back.
(23:59):
If you go to classes these days,you're going to leadership
classes is what I'm talkingabout.
You know you're going to havediscussions where you talk about
impacting and influencing yourstaff and you know Gary York and
I, a couple of episodes ago,had a great talk about this, and
you know Gary York and I, acouple of episodes ago, had a
great talk about this.
Do your staff believe you'regenuine when you walk by and
(24:22):
check on them during the day?
Or do you walk by, wave yourhand and say, hey, what's up?
And go on by?
Do you open the logbook, makesure they're doing what they're
supposed to and then walk on by?
Or do you stop for a minute andsay, how are you doing?
You know that's a little moreof what's expected today, but
how many of you walk in thereand say, step over here and let
me show you a good way to dothis?
How many of you quiz I'mtalking to supervisors here how
(24:45):
many of you quiz your staff?
That's one of the best thingsyou can do to train your staff.
Everybody thinks training hasto be okay.
You'll have a day off onWednesday, you're going to
report to the training centerand you're going to have a class
.
That's not where trainingoccurs.
Training occurs every day, onthe shift, from the senior
(25:06):
officers, from the supervisorsand from the leadership, and
they should be training.
I worked with a warden he stillworks in corrections and he was
great and everybody will tellyou every time he saw you he had
a question for you what doespolicy say about the number of
(25:27):
times that we do this?
And he never asked a questionthat he didn't already know the
answer to.
I never heard him do that, buthe would ask questions every
time he saw you and you didn'teven realize it.
But you were getting taught,you were getting these important
things put in your head and Iremember you know, just it's the
little things.
(25:48):
I remember the old guy settingthe example and you know hey,
come on, I'm going to go dorounds, come with me.
So you go walk with them.
You know they're checking thedoor handles Every time you go
around.
You know they're checking thedoor handles.
And then they'll stop and sayyou know why we do that.
Why do we do door checks,what's the worst-case scenario,
(26:12):
and a little bit of criticalthinking there.
They make you think aboutwhat's possible, why it's
important, because it only takesonce.
We know that once and we're inthe funny paper.
And then the other thing, Iguess, that I I heard about this
week and uh, that I want totalk about, is working with bad
(26:34):
bosses, and so I've had peopleask me.
You know, I got, and he kind ofmentioned it.
The guy mentioned that, youknow, some people had been
promoted over some people whodeserved it.
Does that happen?
Absolutely, it happens.
It happens all the time.
But what do we do?
(26:54):
Now?
We're working for a boss whomay not be the best boss, who
may have got promoted too fast.
What do we do?
Do we just walk away from that,ignore it?
Do we help them?
How do you feel about that?
Well, here's what I'm going totell you.
You can lead from the bottom,you can lead up.
(27:15):
You can lead without rank.
From the bottom, you can leadup, you can lead without rank.
I've known hundreds ofcorrectional officers who led
without rank.
I think of one right now thateverybody looked to, everybody
did, because he was a leader, hewas a correctional officer he
(27:39):
was a senior officer Came in,did his work, but he led
everybody through the culture.
He set the on-the-spot training.
He gave the way he talked topeople, the way he talked to
inmates.
So you can absolutely affectthe culture, the institution,
your job.
(27:59):
It's kind of tough, absolutelyit's kind of tough.
What normally gets in the way ofall this, what normally gets in
the way of you leading up, mostof the time, I think it's pride
.
It's pride and ego, right.
Well, why do I want to help him?
Why do I want to help that guy?
I'm not going to get anythingout of this.
(28:19):
You are going to get somethingout of this if you play your
cards right.
Making the boss look good isalways good for you.
Always.
If the boss looks good, theagency looks good.
If the agency looks good, yourdepartment looks good.
It's always good to support theboss, even if you don't like
(28:41):
them, even if you don't believein everything they're telling
you, as long as it's not illegalor immoral.
It doesn't matter whether ornot it's exactly what you
believe.
You'll have your opportunitysomeday, but right now you need
to support that boss.
You need to support thatlieutenant, that captain, that
warden.
You don't have to agree withthem, but you should be doing
(29:04):
your job the best you can,making them shine the best you
can, and what usually gets inthe way of that ego?
I want people to notice me.
Well, have them notice you as agood follower, because what do
all leaders need?
All leaders need good followers, and if you're not a good
(29:29):
follower, the chances are you'renot going to be a good leader
someday.
How do you like that?
The other thing I want to talkabout have you trained your
staff to make good decisions?
And we talked a little bitabout on-the-spot training.
Have you trained your staff tomake good decisions?
People get so upset with theirwell, why'd you do it that way?
(29:50):
And you've even got bosses whoimmediately want to write
somebody up or they want to putit in their eval.
Well, they did that wrong.
Let's stop.
And this is back to Jocko andextreme ownership.
Why did they do it wrong?
Is it truly a person who's notdoing their job intentionally?
Is it truly a person who is abad worker?
(30:13):
Or is this a person who wasn'tgiven the tools by who?
You, the leadership that wasn'tgiven the tools to succeed?
If you want good decisions outof your officers.
If you want good decisions outof your sergeants, if you want
(30:37):
good decisions out of yourlieutenants, you've got to
provide them not only with thechance to make decisions, but
you've got to let them fix thosedecisions.
You've got to let them.
You've got to not only givethem the environment with which
to make good decisions in okay,you're the supervisor, you're
guiding them, you're leadingthem, putting them in that
(30:58):
position and then allowing themto do what Make decisions.
Now, here's where we usually getin trouble as leaders, as new
leaders older leaders, I think,get this better but as new
leaders, you're going to look atthe decisions they make and
you're going to say, well,that's not the decision I'd make
.
Are you always perfect?
(31:18):
If you are perfect, go aheadand turn this off and move on,
because I don't have anythingfor you.
If you're not perfect,understand that your way is not
the only way.
Once again, ego and pride iscoming in here.
Agree with me.
It's your ego and it's yourpride that says you're the only
one that knows how to make adecision about that.
(31:41):
There are many ways to make adecision about.
You know more than one way toskin a cat.
You've heard that all your lifethere, absolutely is.
Is there only one way to removean inmate from a cell?
Absolutely not De-escalation.
Right Time, less lethal, rollthe door and send the team in.
Are any of those decisionswrong?
(32:04):
Not by their self.
All of those are things thatare allowed within policy.
So let them make theirdecisions, guide them.
Don't let them step off intosomething.
But just because it's not whatyou want, it's not what you
think is the best, doesn't meanit's wrong.
(32:24):
Have you communicated yourexpectations?
Do these staff know how to makedecisions within the
expectations?
And I'm talking mainly to maybea captain or a warden, someone
who's over you know a largerarea.
Expectations are needed lower,but usually you're closer to
that.
Do they know the expectations?
And I'm not talking policy.
Policy is not expectations.
Expectations is culture.
(32:47):
Have you set the culture?
If you have great culture, mostof the problems go away, do
they not?
You don't have to look forpeople doing the wrong thing,
because most people are doingthe right thing and the ones
that aren't stand out like asore thumb right.
Do your officers know you?
(33:08):
Why would that be important?
Why is it important for yourofficers to know you?
My opinion some people maydisagree, but the greatest
leaders I worked with, the oneswho I respected the most.
I felt like I knew somethingabout them.
I knew their character.
I knew the culture they wanted.
I knew their expectations, andwhat do you think that caused?
(33:31):
When I made decisions?
I didn't want to disappointthem.
That's the truth that came backthrough my head.
How's this person that Irespect, how's this person who I
want to follow?
How does this person that?
How are they going to feelabout this?
You may have a little bit ofthat.
I mean, it's cultural.
We have that within ourfamilies, do we not?
(33:52):
Absolutely, you want to dogreat so that your family's
proud of you.
Your community, your culture atwork does the same thing.
So do your staff know you?
Do they understand the mission?
Do they know your expectations?
Do you let them make decisionswithin that framework?
If you do, you're going to havea great institution.
(34:14):
You're going to have a greatdepartment.
You're going to have a greatteam.
You're going to have a greatdepartment.
You're going to have a greatteam wherever you're leading at.
So, anyway, I hope you gotsomething out of that.
It's just I brought a lot ofthings together.
It's been busy the last monthor so, like I said, class after
class.
So I've got to talk to a lot ofpeople.
I see a lot of peoplestruggling in corrections, but I
(34:36):
still see a lot of hope.
I see a lot of peoplestruggling in corrections, but I
still see a lot of hope.
I see a lot of hope for thepeople that are there.
I see a lot of.
You know it's easy to shineright now.
If you want to go to the top,go, set your goals, find your
priorities, become a goodfollower and then become a good
(34:56):
leader.
If you want to be a warden, ifyou want to be an administrator,
if you want to, whatever it isyou want to do in corrections
right now, the doors are open toyou.
That doesn't mean it's nottough.
You're going to deal with baddays.
You're going to deal with thestresses.
You're going to deal with thenastiness and the criminality of
(35:19):
what we see every day.
So you got to find your passion.
You got to have that so thatyou can carry it with you in
those dark times.
I hope that helps a few of you.
I hope you have a great day.
So that's it for the PrisonOfficer Podcast.
I'll see you next episode.
Before we get off here, I'd liketo thank one more of our
sponsors.
If you haven't done it, go towwwomnirtlscom.
(35:46):
That's omnirtlscom.
It is the best way to track andmonitor the inmates in your
jail or prison.
So go check out the website.
I'm proud to have them as asponsor on here also.
Have a great day.
I'll talk to you later.
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