93: Leadership and Innovation in Correctional Training - Interview w/Michael Warren - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
More than 28 years of corrections.
I have used or supervisedPepperball hundreds of times.
Now as a master instructor forPepperball, I teach others about
the versatility andeffectiveness of this Pepperball
system.
From cell extractions todisturbances on the rec yard,
pepperball is the first optionin my correctional toolbox.
One of the most dangerous timesfor officers is during cell

(00:22):
extractions.
Times for officers is duringcell extractions.
Pepperball allows officers torespond with the lowest level of
force and still be effectiveand ready if the situation
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, how many projectiles arelaunched and how rapidly they're
deployed.
This allows the response to betailored to the moment.
To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click

(00:47):
the link below in the show'sinformation guide.
Pepperball is the safer optionfirst.
Well, welcome back to the PrisonOfficer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday I have a guest that I've
been working with for the lastyear.
I'm really excited.
His name is Michael Warren.
He's the Director of trainingfor Command Presence.
He's also the host of Faces ofLeadership podcast.

(01:10):
He's a former police officer.
He's a voracious readerprobably the most voracious
reader I've ever met, and he isa true student of leadership and
leadership development and I'mproud to have him on here.
I'm excited about ourconversation today.
Welcome to the podcast, michaelWarren.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Thanks, brother, I appreciate you being here.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah, we've been talking about getting you on
here for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
We have.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
I'm so excited you got to interview me and on your
podcast and I appreciate that.
If you haven't been there yet,go check out Faces of Leadership
.
Of course I'll put a link herein the show notes for anybody,
so tell me.
I always start at the beginning.
That's just kind of the way Ido these podcasts.
Tell me where you grew up andyou know kind of the path that

(01:58):
took you into law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
All right, well, my dad was an electrician.
Law enforcement All right, well, my dad was an electrician, and
so I always tell people thatfrom the time I was born until
about the time I was 15, welived in a lot of different
places, a lot of differentplaces, but primarily up until
15, I lived primarily in Georgiaand that's really where the

(02:21):
path began as far as lawenforcement, because my
granddaddy was a Georgia Statepatrolman for 30 years.
Oh wow, oh yeah, buddy, and Ican remember as a little kid he
brought his patrol car home andhe let me play with the lights
and sirens, yeah, and Mikey washooked.
Yeah, no, I was hooked, brother.
And so you know, that kind of,that kind of was the start of

(02:44):
the whole thing.
And uh, I I come from a lawenforcement family, uh, on my
mom's side, and it's just one ofthose things.
It was a bug that I just nevercould get rid of and never
wanted to get rid of right.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
So even going through school, you're thinking you're.
You're the kid that I'm goingto be a police officer when I
grow up.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
I was a criminal justice major.
It's amazing because I don'tlike talking about how long ago
it was, but when I was incollege a long time ago, some of
the guys that were in mycriminal justice class I'm still
friends with today were in mycriminal justice class I'm still
friends with today, and thebulk of us the funny thing the

(03:28):
bulk of us have already retired,at least from our first career
in law enforcement.
And, man, I just tell you, it'sjust one of those things that
once it gets into your blood, ifit really gets into your blood,
it's there.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, so was it the?
Was it the perception Cause I'msure your father looked just,
or your grandfather looked justlarger than life as a Georgia
state trooper to a little kid.
Was it the public service?
Was it you see in him assomeone who helped people?
What was it that kind of inthat kid mind?

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Well, you know, he was larger than life and I
called him pop and in fact youknow, just to give you a little
side note here uh, when, uh, mygrandson was born earlier this
year, uh, I carried with me tothe hospital a picture of pop
wearing his georgia state patroluniform and holding me as a

(04:24):
baby, and I carried it with meas a reminder that that's the
kind of grandfather that I wantto be for my grandson.
And so he was larger than life,but growing up on both sides of
my family you know, one side,you've got law enforcement and
military, and on the other side,my dad's side, you've got
you've got military.

(04:44):
My dad's an air force vet, it'sjust it.
I was around public service, uh, my whole life and it's and I
don't want to say it wasexpected, but it certainly was
the norm, and so I guess it wasa combination of those things.
The idea of, of, of continuingon the tradition of being a

(05:04):
productive member of society andman, I just tell you it didn't
disappoint us for sure.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Right, right.
So yeah, you started in lawenforcement a while back and we
talk about this sometimes.
It was a different worldapplying for law enforcement 30
years ago.
There were more people showedup for the test.
There were, you know.
The physical standards that youhad to meet are a whole
different thing.
Tell me about some of that.
The first time you went andapplied, and where did you apply

(05:33):
and what was that like?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I was very fortunate I got picked up pretty quickly
once I started applying butthere was a lot of competition
for the position that I got.
But you know, mike, it was oneof those things where I don't
like using the word, but I wasreally kind of naive.

(05:56):
Naive about what it was.
I mean I teach college classesright now for criminal justice,
right.
I mean I tell I teach collegeclasses right now for criminal
justice, right.
And one of the things I try toget across to students is one of
the things I didn't know backthen were just how many
different types of lawenforcement jobs or work.
You know, I mean just in thefederal government.

(06:28):
I mean you know just aboutevery agency has their own law
enforcement section and just Iknew FBI, atf, dea, but that was
about the scope of what I knewon the federal side, and so it
was a lot different.
I mean people wanted in becausethey did believe in public
service and it also didn't hurtthat there were benefits.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Sure, sure, and I just got to bring this up.
I'm still learning all theaspects of law enforcement.
I had a class not too long ago.
Two guys were in there from thenational geospatial um and they
they were on the police force.
It's in St Louis and all themapping and satellite images and
stuff for the.

(06:59):
They have a police force forthat and these guys were coming
through a pepper ball class.
I was like I'd never heard ofthat and I've been doing this
forever.
See, I learned something today,so yeah, um.
So tell me about the where youstarted working.
What was that like your first?

Speaker 2 (07:15):
tell me about your first week man, I remember, uh,
the first week out of theacademy.
You know what I'm saying, dude,I wanted to go out and I wanted
to rest.
Everybody, everybody didn'twant I came in early, stayed
after my shift, but.
But the problem was, there'sthis thing called the in-house
Academy.
And if a funny story, at leastfunny to me there were three of

(07:40):
us that started together and weall went to the Academy together
and, and our FTO?
We weren't in the FTO program,we were in the in-house program.
But she decided to take us outon the road and so she puts us
in the only vehicle that wasn'ta Crown Vic, and so she puts us

(08:01):
in there.
Well, me and one other guynamed Kevin, we're in the
backseat, and then she makesthis decision she's going to
pull a traffic stop.
Well, it didn't take us verylong to figure out that we were
stuck in that backseat.
Brother, you can't open thedoor.
So we're kind of sitting backthere like this, together going.
What are we going to do if theycome out shooting?

(08:22):
I guess we're going to sit hereand watch because we can't get
out.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yeah, those back doors are made that way, so
that's right right get out.
Yeah, that's hilarious, andnobody had thought to reach back
and just touch the handle foryou.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
No, you know, you know, just throw the window down
, do something.
You know, give us an out, but,but.
But we're, he and I, we're sonaive and we're so jacked up
into it.
You know, we're just like, oh,oh, son of a gun, these handles
don't work.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
She could have rolled the window down.
You could have pretended likeyou were the canine.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's right, I've been good at it too, you know.
But you know we talk about itin our leading without rank
class, with command presence.
What it was like when you, whenyou first found out you got the
job, and what it was like youwhen you first started the job
and and I don't want tooverstate it, but it was truly,

(09:15):
at least for me, it was magical,you know.
You know, it was like theculmination of all these dreams
as a little boy and going tocollege and stuff.
I just I was all in brother.
That's cool.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
You didn't lose the magic.
No, yeah, I like that.
So, um, as you go into thiscareer, tell me, tell me a
couple of things you learned,cause you hit it on the head
there that you came out of thegates.
You know you want to fixeverything.
We all do.
We're running just a hundredmiles an hour and then we figure
out that the world doesn't getfixed that way.

(09:47):
You know you can't beat yourhead against everything you come
up to.
Tell me about learning some ofthat.
How community policing, howgetting to know the people kind
of changed that for you.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Well, buddy, you said something really profound there
, because, number one, I came inwith a belief that I could fix
everything, and then it took mea little bit, but then I
realized that, man, I got tomake sure I stay fixed, or I'm
unable to fix anything, you'reright.

(10:20):
And so that was an eye-openerfor me.
And then, if you talk aboutmisconceptions, I grew up down
south.
Primarily, like I told you, andI'll be very frank with you,
one of the things that Istruggled with early in my
career was the concept or theidea of using force against a
female.
You know, I was always told youknow, you take care of females,

(10:42):
you open doors for them, youcarry things for them, all those
things right there.
So I guess I just never quiteconsidered that there might be
some females that don't want thedoor held and in fact they
might want to whoop you, and sothat was something I just
remember early in my career,that being something that I
really struggled with from amindset perspective.

(11:06):
Uh, but then you know the youtalked about community policing
and, um, I'll be the first toadmit that, probably early in my
career, I wasn't a goodcommunity police officer.
Uh, I was.
I was looking to find peopledoing things wrong.
And if that's all that you'relooking to do is find people

(11:26):
doing things wrong, uh, thenyou're not going to have a lot
of conversation with them.
You're going to have a lot oftalking to them when you catch
them doing something wrong, butoutside of that there's not a
lot of interaction.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, I know in corrections we get pretty
cynical pretty quick when we goin.
Did you notice that come up onyou?
Did you become cynical early inthat career?
Did it take a while?

Speaker 2 (11:53):
You know, it's one of those things where I think it
took a little bit, because I tryto see the good in people.
I try to see the good in peoplebut again, that mindset of
you're constantly looking forthe bad.
What's the old saying it saidif you're looking to find people
who are jerks, it's amazing howmany jerks you can find.

(12:15):
And if you're looking to findpeople doing things wrong, it's
amazing how many things that youcan find people doing wrong.
And so I guess some might callit cynicism, but it certainly

(12:36):
negatively impacted myperspective and my outlook of
those in the community that Iwas supposed to be serving.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
So where did you?
I guess I didn't ask where didyou go to work first?
What was there?

Speaker 2 (12:45):
It's called Novi, michigan.
It's part of the Detroit metroarea, part of the Tri-County
area, right there, 32 squaremiles.
When I started it was justunder 50,000 residents.
I think now it's up over 60.
Busy shopping district.
We had the city, had some money, we had some very poor parts of
the city but had an interstatethat ran through there.

(13:07):
That tend to make things alittle bit exciting, but but it
was.
It was a great place to work.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Much overflow from Detroit.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, so so we, we sat right at the intersection of
a I-96 and I-275.
And whenever you have the, theinterstates, you have people
that have the ability to come inand then leave quickly if they
need to.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
So Right Right.
Yeah, that was a shock for me.
I was a country boy, I grew upin a small town and then when I
walked into a penitentiary forthe first time, so did you kind
of feel that way, coming fromsmaller areas in the South.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
You know the city not so much, but I'll be very
upfront with you.
When I did feel overwhelmedlike that was the first few
times that I went to OaklandCounty jail.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
You know we had to drop somebody off.
Very rarely during days orafternoons did you have to go up
to the jail, but at the night,during the night aons, did you
have to go up to the jail, butat the night, during the night.
A lot of times you would go upthere to drop off or pick up
people.
Sure, and I can remember youpull into the big sally port
right and the doors would closedown and these weren't regular
doors, right, these arereinforced steel doors and they

(14:22):
would pop open and you wouldtake your prisoner in there.
But off off to the left whenyou came into intake, off to the
left was the big holding penand the the they.
There would be a ton of peoplein there, buddy, and you're
talking about a diverseperspective of society.
Yeah, that's what, that's whatyou got right there.
But but there's, there's acertain bravado that comes when

(14:46):
you're in the majority, and theycertainly were in the majority
and at this point they reallydidn't have a lot to lose.
And that was I hate to use theword scary, but it's kind of
scary to me.
It was, it was from a um, itwas overstimulating.
There was a lot of input,sensory input.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Right, yeah, absolutely.
And you know we get this notionin corrections and law
enforcement that we're incontrol a lot of times, and then
we often get put in thoseplaces like that and we go, yeah
, I'm in control, but that couldgo away quickly.
Yes, and it sets you back aminute, that could go away
quickly.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yes, it sets you back a minute.
You know, in American societyour leaders serve at the consent
of the governed, and the truthof the matter is, in many ways
our control in law enforcementis at the consent of those being
controlled Absolutely.
Those being controlledAbsolutely and so, but?

(15:50):
But yeah, oakland County.
I can remember the first time Ihad to go down to the female
annex and you know he had towalk through number one dude, I
was so lost I had no idea.
If I'd have had an emergency,I'd have had to call for help
and they'd have asked where Iwas and I'd have no idea.
Right, I'll just startscreaming and you guys listen
for the screen.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Everything's gray walls.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, exactly but but , and that that's.
That's exactly the the, thesense it was.
It was almost like a a feelingof doom, because everything's
concrete or steel, it's allpainted the same color.
It just it's not.
It's not sterile like ahospital.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
It.
I feel all that I absolutely do.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
I was also honored to be given some some pretty high

(16:58):
profile cases that we had at ouragency and in fact, my, my, my
partner for a lot of the timewas Victor Loria, who also
happens to be an instructor forcommand presence, and and it was
during that time, right there,where I really began to
understand the importance ofpeople being properly prepared

(17:21):
for the job that they had beengiven, and so so, if I can just
kind of share because most ofthe things I learned I learned
because I screwed them up, right, um, my, my, my, my, the.
I'm a brand new detective dude.
I don't know if you know thisabout michigan, but there are
times where michigan gets reallycold and then we've got this
white stuff that makes itinteresting.

(17:43):
But I but I got, I got caught, Igot sent out to this, this b&e
right so I grabbed the equipment, you know, got up my gear and
everything I get out there and,um, I had no idea how to take
the film this was 35 millimeterhow to take the film out of the
camera, and so this was back.
We had a little star trek.

(18:03):
You know flip phones, and soI'm calling up on the detectives
because you don't want to, youknow, you don't want to dime
yourself out.
You know, dude, I don't knowhow to, I don't know how to
change a film and I need to getanother, I need to get another
role in there, and justsomething as simple as that
right there, how to use thebasic equipment, all of those
things right there.
I mean thank goodness it wasn'ta very big scene, because it

(18:24):
could have been catastrophicfrom a court perspective.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Preparing people for those steps
up is something that often getslacked.
It did on my part too, and youknow I've talked about this.
You know we become greattactical leaders and then people
see that and they go well, he'dmake a good, you know.
Move him to the next step, movehim to the captain, move him to
the detective.

(18:48):
But did they prepare us forwhat you're going to do?
Because when I went fromlieutenant to captain, I went
from just having this group ofcorrectional officers.
I run out in front, they followme, we do the job, and now I'm
in charge of a whole institutionto include medical and
education and all this stuffthat I had no idea about, and so

(19:09):
, yeah, yeah, you know you saidsomething right there.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
So, yeah, yeah, you know you said something right
there.
We in this profession oftenthink, because somebody's good
at one job, that that success isgoing to transfer seamlessly
and easily to another job.
Yeah, and that's not always thecase.
In fact, I would say most ofthe times it's not the case.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
There's different levels of leadership that
require different skills, andthat's one of the things Well.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
We become comfortable in what we do and we think the
tool that worked at one level isgoing to work at the next.
And sometimes it doesn't workcatastrophically.
It's a different toolbox, yeah,absolutely, not just different
tools, whole new box.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Absolutely.
So you do the detective gig andI know at some point you really
get into training.
Yeah, what, what was that?
What?
What is it that?
I know for myself what thatanswer is, but for you, what is
it that drew you to traininginside the department?

Speaker 2 (20:08):
man, well, once I started going to training for,
uh, the, the role that I wasalready playing right, it was
actually playing because Iwasn't performing, I was playing
Once I started realizing theimpact that good quality
training had, not just on mytactical skills, my technical

(20:30):
skills, but but it also made mehelp.
It also helped me make betterdecisions.
I started, I started.
But, man, this, this right here,is kind of a game changer, and
and and, if I could, one of thedays we, we, we had set aside a
day, a Friday, where we weregoing to every person that was a
detective had chosen something,some school they'd gone to in

(20:53):
the past six months and theywere going to do a presentation
to their fellow detectives andthe idea was the spread and the
wealth of knowledge.
And Vic and I, we were actuallydoing one on fingerprinting of
bodies and it had a twofoldthing.
Number one we had had a thingwhere we had a lady where we had

(21:15):
to go up and fingerprint herbody to get her fingerprints to
confirm identity, which is awhole different thing.
If you're rolling somebody'sfinger, yes, it is, but then
also lifting a latentfingerprint off of a body, when
you start showing people and youknow, that whole, that
realization that now that theygot it, that was kind of

(21:39):
addictive to me, not going tolie to you.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
There you go.
Yeah, that's a great idea,bringing them in and having
everybody teach a little bit.
You don't have to always, and Idid a little deal on the
podcast a couple of podcasts ago.
Every time you walk and talk toone of your officers, every
time you interact with one ofyour staff, that's a chance for

(22:02):
you to train them Just a littlebit.
It doesn't have to be thetraining day where you take
eight hours and everybody getsin a seat, something like that,
where you just bring hey, you'vebeen to training recently,
you've been to training recentlycome in here and help everybody
else understand.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
That's a great idea.
In the army they call it hippocket training.
You know where, where, where,yeah, where.
Yeah, listen, you know we got alittle down time right now, but
hey, let's take thisopportunity to learn in a small
group.
It's unstructured, it'sunplanned.
That doesn't mean that it's notbeing delivered by a SME, but
it's a great opportunity tospread the knowledge regularly.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, so that's one question.
You were in the Army.
Yesterday was Veterans Day.
Thank you for your service.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Thank you, sir, appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, so did you do law enforcement in the Army?

Speaker 2 (22:51):
No, no, I was infantry.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
I just wondered if it led into that for you or?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
some people do.
No, it was just one of thosethings where you know you have
the undeveloped prefrontalcortex making decisions about
what job you should do.
Boy, it sounds fun.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
I know about that.
Yes, I know about that, yes.
So training becomes for you therest of your career and into
the next career.
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
So kind of walk me through that.
What did you start off doing?
And then where did you takethat?
And I know you worked for acouple of places.
I want to hear about those.
Well, we, we, the, the, thetraining in the detective
section really started to, um,really started the fire.
Uh, when I was a detective.
I was then assigned to dea,detroit, uh, for for a few years
, nice and um, that was one ofthose things where I was
reminded again how the lack oftraining can negatively impact

(23:55):
things.
And and and you know you, yougo down to to DEA and you've got
to start, and we went and didour first enforcement thing and
they say, are you going to writethe six?
And I'm like, I'm sorry, the,what they said, the six.
I said I have no idea whatyou're talking about.

(24:21):
Right, that's the narrative andI can write a narrative.
But but, uh, you know it's it'show much better, how much more
productive would I have been upfront if it had been structured,
intentional training on thefront end.
And so, after seeing that acouple of times you know I'm a
slow learner so after seeingthat a couple of times, and I
come back and, uh, I getpromoted to Sergeant, and then I
made the training in standardSergeant.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
And now I'm responsible for, for
coordinating and organizing, uh,the training for my agency.
And I was.
I was blessed because I had aguy named Tom Orlowski, that was
a police officer in Novi thatfor a long time we were peers

(25:03):
and then I got promoted and so Ioutranked him, but Tom never,
ever ceased to lead up.
And so I can remember Tomwalking into my office one time
and saying Mike, here's a bookyou need to read.
Tom ain't got time to read.
No book, man, dude, I'm busy.
And he goes, mike, he goes.
I'm telling you, this willchange, this will change your

(25:26):
professional life.
I said, mike, you need to readit.
And he gives me Training at theSpeed of Life by Ken Murray.
And so you know, I'm okay, tom,I'll read the book.
But I didn't start reading thebook, man.
And then he goes hey, mike,how's the book come along?
Eh, it's coming along good.
And finally he goes Mike,listen, you need to read the
book.
And I did and it changed mylife.
And Tom never let me settle.

(25:48):
He never, never let me settle.
And because he was already adefensive tactics and farms
instructor and he recognized thegenerational impact that a
trainer can have on an agency,but it can be for good or it can
be for bad, and Tom wasintentional about making sure

(26:10):
that what was provided was good,and so that that's where that's
where the okay.
You know what we're going to dothis.
We've got to do this right,which means you've got to do the
research, and that's where itstarted.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
And I think you hit the nail on the head right there
.
Whether you're the team leader,whether you're the lieutenant
captain, warden chief, whatever,one of the most important
decisions you'll make is whoyour trainer's going to be.
They set the culture, they setthe knowledge level.
All of that comes from thepeople that train, and I don't

(26:43):
know about law enforcement, butin corrections I've seen so much
over the years.
We get this failed supervisorand we don't know what to do
with them.
Put them over in training.
What do you think you just didto everybody else?
Why is it?
Does that happen in lawenforcement?

Speaker 2 (26:59):
There's a couple of places you stick them.
You can stick them in theproperty room right, which is a
terrible place to stick them,because, I don't know, let's
think that that's the evidence.
I don't know, that might beimportant for court cases, who
knows?

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Discredited employee yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
But you know and tell me if your experience was the
same.
Okay, tom Orlowski was one ofthe best leaders that I ever
worked with.
He never got promoted, neverdid, but that didn't stop him
from not only leading but alsoproviding training at that level
.
Right there, tom, just it's notthat he it's not that he

(27:36):
couldn't have been promoted, hejust never tried to get promoted
.
He was content where he was andsome of the best, most
competent people that I've everworked with were frontline
workers.
And there were some leaders andI say leaders, quote unquote
leaders that looked down on themas less than because they
didn't have any formal rank, anyformal authority in the agency.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, I've got three or four that just hit my mind
immediately.
And I, you know, since I'vebeen out doing other stuff, I've
been like, hey, you want tocome to work?
No, I'm done, I'm done.
But they had more impact on theagencies I worked at and, like
you said, just, uh, they werejust this person on this team or
or this person on this shift,but everybody looked to them

(28:19):
when there was a question andevery leader out there should
understand when people quitasking you questions, you're
doing something wrong.
And if you see a person outthere who everybody's asking a
question to, this is a personyou need to pay attention to
because they've got naturalleadership or developed
leadership.
You know it comes both ways andsee what they're doing, because

(28:40):
that's what's happening there.
It's just this organic thingwhere, where they set the
standard, people know thatthey're authentic and they look
that way when it's time forleadership, way when it's time
for leadership.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
And I think, from a training perspective, that when
you're looking for those people,when things are really tense,
when they're really stressfuland things are just about, as we
say, hit the fan right when aperson shows up and you can feel
the tension reduced in yourpeople because they know that

(29:13):
things are going to get donecorrectly.
Now you know those are thepeople that that they may not be
formally training, but they'reprobably informally training.
They're probably doing a prettydaggone good job of it yeah,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
I'm gonna back up just a little bit, because you
also mentioned something else,which was this guy had to almost
talk you into reading a book.
And for what little I've knownyou.
It just blows my mind.
This guy is a voracious readerand he remembers it and he, he
can tell you what's in this bookand what book it was in and who
wrote it.
And I I've leaned so much intoa lot of what you've told me and

(29:50):
picked up books that you'vetold me, uh, and learned so much
in the last year, since we'vegot to know each other and I
think it's you who says it allthe time you know, not all
leaders are readers, but, yeah,not all readers are leaders, but
all leaders are readers.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
That's correct.
Well, I've always been a bigreader and I have to credit that
to my grandma.
So my granddaddy was a Georgiastate patrolman.
My grandma was a schoolteacherand unfortunately I lost her
when I was nine.
But every day after school,when she would get home from
school, I'd go to her house andwe'd have a quote unquote tea

(30:24):
party, which means we woulddrink Kool-Aid and I'd eat
Cheetos.
But the most important thing iswe'd read.
And so she instilled in me alove of reading.
But at the time the only thingthat I was reading was fiction.
I was huge into Tom Clancy andWEB Griffin and authors like

(30:44):
that, and I never considered thenonfiction thing until Tom
Morlowski, and so that's kind ofwhere, where, where it started.
But uh, you know, mike, I guess, I guess I.
It was one of those thingswhere I finally realized you
know what, mike?
It's impossible for you to knoweverything, but that doesn't

(31:06):
mean that you don't have accessto the knowledge.
You just have to take advantageof it.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, it's.
And I'll tell you a little tipor trick that I learned from a
former associate warden of mine.
I go over to his house to visithim and I come in and his his
coffee table there's like 10books and they're all open.
They've all got pieces of paperin them and I'm like what book
are you reading?
He said all of them.

(31:32):
I said you're not reading allof them.
I said all of them.
I said you're not reading allof them.
I said which?
He said no, he said it dependson the day.
He said I'll pick up this booktoday and I'll read six pages,
and tomorrow I'll read six pages.
Here I think people have themisunderstanding that you have
to sit down and go through onebook.
No, go grab it from all of them, get what you need.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Would you agree with me that that that sometimes the
book is the right book, but it'sthe wrong time.
Yes, and if you've got thosethings right there available to
you.
Uh, you know, I I'm I'm veryimpatient when it comes to
reading now, and so if I startreading a book and and I don't
feel like it's going to deliverwhat I need, I'll set it aside.
But that doesn't mean that twomonths from now, that a need

(32:19):
might arise and I'll oh you knowwhat I think it may be over
there, and so I have to agreewith you.
And the other thing is too andI struggle with this is we have
to get outside our domain?
Is we have to get outside ourdomain?
The answers are probably outthere for the problems that we
have, but they may not havecorrections in front of them or

(32:40):
they may not have police or lawenforcement but we just have to
go grab it and find out how wecan apply it.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
You know, I think over the last decade or so that
I can think of I may be off ontimes just a little bit you know
coming up every time somebodytalked about leadership reading,
it was Maxwell Ziegler.
You know there was thesecertain names.
And then I remember in one ofthe impactful books for me was
extreme ownership by Jocko Wilma, and here was a Navy seal
completely foreign to whateverybody else in the world goes

(33:14):
through, except for what theywent through.
And here he took a book andmade it applicable to everybody.
And now you see more and moreand more of that where
military's crossing over, lawenforcement's crossing over even
corrections we're seeing somebooks in there that are crossing
over and everybody's figuringout leadership doesn't have to
do with this area or that area,it has to do with all of them

(33:39):
well it.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
Two of the two of my favorite areas to go to uh are
aviation and sports yeah and onewould think that those have
nothing, no crossover whatsoever, with what we do.
But, man, the lessons learnedis absolutely incredible.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Sure, sure, well, so let's.
One of the things I want totalk about today, of course, is
and we've been talking abouttraining and leadership is
command presence.
We both work for commandpresence.
Earlier this year John Bostaincalled me and he said I want to

(34:22):
start teaching corrections.
So kind of walk me throughcommand presence, kind of the
history.
Tell me a little bit about John, because John's been in
training a long time, also likeyou, and tell me how that
relationship formed and how thisstarted.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
Well, you know, john started off in the Navy and then
he became a police officer inVirginia.
But then he heard about thisplace called Flutze and you know
, by this time John was doingsome teaching in the academy and
he goes, man, he goes, you know, he goes doing this full time.
That really, really appeals tome.

(35:01):
And so he ended up getting thejob at Flutzy, moving down to
Brunswick, georgia, and he, he,he loved the impact that he had
with the people that camethrough the at the federal law
enforcement training center.
You know the and, but, but he,he felt like he was.
I hate using the wordrestricted, but you kind of fall

(35:24):
into a niche.
You know what I'm saying.
Yeah, you're this person righthere, you know, but I've got so
much more to offer, right.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
I worked for the federal government.
Yeah, no, you don't understand,got so much more to offer.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Right, I work for the federal government.
Yeah, no, you don't understand,we've got classifications,
right.
Yeah, but he made the decisionthat he wanted to go out on his
own, and so he started doingsome work and got together a
couple other fellows and CommandPres presence was born.

(35:55):
Now the other guys that hestarted with fantastic trainers.
But, but you know, working in atraining company is not for the
faint of heart.
It's, it's a hard life, andthey decided that they, uh they,
they weren't up to it, and ifthey weren't up to it, then they
weren't going to deliver.
So, john and I, we actually metback in 2011 at an Aelita

(36:20):
conference in Illinois, okay,and I went to.
You know, I'd gone through itwas my very first Aelita and I'd
gone through and I picked up mycourses.
What's this below 100,?
Train the trainer.
I'll go do that.
Sounds interesting.
But this guy starts talking upversus what's this below 100?
Train the trainer.
I'm gonna do that soundsinteresting.
Well, this guy starts talkingup there, dude, and I was blown
away and and so I go up and Italked to him and his name was

(36:42):
john bostane, and so he and Istarted talking, but then it
turns out that john's hometownis novi, michigan really, which
is where I did my policingcareer.
Now, john, he left right afterhigh school to join the Navy, so
our paths never crossed there,but we stayed in contact with
each other and we'd see eachother at Aelita and he came to

(37:06):
my agency, did a couple of daysof training and one of them was
a transformational trainer and Iloved that class right, and so
next year at Ael a, I said hey,man, man, if you get a second
during the week, I'd like totalk to you.
I got a couple ideas and so wemeet and we sit down.

(37:26):
He goes oh, what do you want totalk to me about?
I said, dude, I lovetransformational trainer, but
you need a second day.
He goes what do you mean?
That's what thetransformational trainer is
focused on.
On the micro level.
I said I think you needsomething.
What does that look like in atraining program?
And the macro level?
And he goes.
You know what?
I think you're right.
He goes how would you like towrite it?
I said I'm all in.

(37:48):
And so that's where we started.
And it's funny because I wasstanding with him at the booth
and a good friend of ours, a guywho's become a good friend of
ours, giant of a man comes upand starts talking to John and
he's talking abouttransformational training and he
goes man, I wish it was asecond day to address programs.
He goes do you guys havesomething like that?

(38:09):
And John kind of looks over, hegoes, as a matter of fact,
we're working on right now.
And, and John kind of looksover, he goes, as a matter of
fact, we're working on right now.

(38:30):
And so it ended up being a guyfrom NYPD, their
counterterrorism division, eddieO'Brien.
And so that's where we started.
And because it wasn't the wayhuman beings make decisions, it
was not the way the laws made,and so he was, he was at the
forefront of that.
And so when he started talkingto you about corrections, I'm
like son of a gun, that makes aheck of a lot of sense.
Yeah, and so, and and I don'tknow if you know this or not,

(38:52):
but uh, I was the one that senthim to you because, uh, you and
I had talked on on a previouspodcast and, uh, we were talking
about correctional stuff.
I said I happen to know a guyand, um, so that that that's
where John and I but.
But can I share real quickwhere, where?
Uh, how I came across you.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Sure Okay.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Because I love, I love LinkedIn, sure, okay,
because I love LinkedIn, right,and I spend a lot of time on
there and I started seeing theseposts from this guy that was a
podcast host and I'm like whatis this guy?
But you know what it was.
That drew me to youno-transcript to officer.

(39:37):
And I'm one of those guys thatbelieves in the power of word
and I'm like I can tell alreadythat this guy gets it.
And so I started reading someof your posts and then I reached
out to you over LinkedIn andhere we are today.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Um, yeah, it's amazing howintertwined the last year has
been with everything that we'vebeen doing.
It really is stepping backacross paths that we've walked
before with other people and I'mgoing to tell you about the
conversation with John.

(40:10):
So he called me up and he saidI want to do for corrections.
You know what we're doing forlaw enforcement.
And I was like, okay, yeah,that sounds good, and I'm, you
know, I'm kind of nod lawenforcement.
And I was like, okay, yeah,that sounds good, and I'm, you
know, I'm kind of nodding myhead on the phone and stuff.
And he said I want to givecorrections to training they
deserve.
And I went, wow, okay, I'mlistening because I and people

(40:32):
don't understand this.
And law enforcement gets a lotof money spent on training they
do.
And they get to go outside oftheir department and go to
another department.
And you know I teach pepperball so I get to see all these
agencies working together andthey grow and they network and
they take pieces from here andthey make their department

(40:52):
better.
Corrections tends to be taughtby the same people inside the
department over and, over andover again One of the last
classes I set in the Bureau ofPrisons, literally, I'm not
kidding.
This guy walked out and he goes.
Well, this is the 55th timeI've taught this class to a
class and I'm like, well, thisis going to be great.

(41:14):
Thank you for that.
You know, that's not what peoplewant to hear, right?
They don't want to hear thatyou've done this 55 times and
then it's the same training.
They want something new.
They want, they want somethingthat they could take, make part
of who they are and apply it andmake the world safer.
Man, make, make.
Uh, you know it's.

(41:34):
One of the reasons I went intotraining was I saw what I was
teaching people making theirjobs safer, making them better
able to handle those momentsthat none of us are ready for
law enforcement or corrections.
I don't care how long you'vebeen doing this.
You run into these things thatyou're just it's not normal.
And now you, you have to takeexperience and deal with it.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Well, it seemed.
It seems to me and of course youand I work in different parts
of the system, but my experiencehas been is that, when it comes
to training, the inmates aren'tthe only ones who are held
captive, that are held captivein a facility.
And the problem is, when yourfamily tree is lacking branches,

(42:17):
yes, it becomes problematic.
And so Mike, john and I we wereteaching a class down in
Orlando, florida, a few yearsago, and one of the most
impactful things from that threedays of training was a
correctional officer from OrangeCounty and he gets up there
it's a de-escalation class andhe gets up there in front of the

(42:37):
class and he goes hey, you knowwhat?
You cops on the street.
Every once in a while you getdispatched to the bad
neighborhood, he said.
But in corrections we live inthe bad neighborhood and I was
like son of a gun.
That's beautiful.
It's one of those things that,because it's not readily visible

(43:10):
certainly not to the public,but even other parts of law
enforcement, I think,unfortunately, in many cases
it's neglected and it makes itless safe for the officers and
also for the people they've beencharged with taking care of.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Absolutely, and we are there to keep those inmates
safe and to make it a safe place.
And inmate 80%, 70% I don'tknow what the percentage is but
most of the inmates want a safeplace to do their time.
Maybe, maybe, learn a littlebit about themselves, learn a
little bit about a vocation andgo back out in society.
Most of them want that and wewe owe that to them.

(43:41):
So one of the things I've gotto see this year and you and I
have got a class coming uptogether next month is the work
that Command Presence has beendoing with TCI, and this has
been amazing for me to watch.
Tell me a little bit about howCommand Presence got into that
and what we've been doing,because I don't think I've seen

(44:03):
it anywhere else.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Well, it was one of those things where Command
Presence delivered apresentation.
There happened to be a guythere named David Alola, who's
in charge of training for TCI,and he liked it.
And that's another visionaryguy right there, by the way,
because he saw things at a muchgrander scale than what I would

(44:26):
have ventured into.
But, man, he put together thisidea.
He bought into the idea thatthere needs to be leadership at
all levels.
That leadership is the answerto many of the problems that we
have, no matter what professionwe're in, but certainly in the,
the correction side of things.
So so you put together thesethree tiers.
So you've got tier one, whichis, uh, the, the front line

(44:49):
leadership, and then you've gottier two, which is what you and
I'll be doing next month, whichare people in the middle of the
organization.
And then just last week, we ranthe first tier three, which is
the executive level training.
And, mike, listen, I'm a veryemotional person, but the

(45:14):
gratitude and the thankfulnessthat the people that were in our
class had to have access togood quality training that was
focused and this is importantwas focused on correctional
officers, not just they justhappened to be a tag-along in a

(45:36):
class man.
I was blown away by how happythey were that they were being
served Sure.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
And I saw the same thing while I was out there.
I think one of the things peoplemiss about corrections is and
this is something I've preachedfor a while where I work, I told
my trainers and the people thatgave training do not go out
there and put on a half-assedtraining because we get such a
small amount of break from thatjob.

(46:06):
You go down, you're working indamn near a basement with
maximum security, inmates, eight, 16 hours a day and you don't
even see the sun sometimes.
And you don't even see the sunsometimes.
To get a day of training, goodtraining, to go sit in a class
and learn something aboutyourself and your skills and
gain knowledge that you can takeinto work and improve your life

(46:29):
and the life of the people youwork with and the life of the
people you're watching, means somuch to a correctional officer.
It just does.
We don't get that break.
It's not like we get to go oncea week, you know.
So I absolutely see what you'retalking about for them to just
they just feel how much we caredabout it.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Well, I would be remiss if I didn't bring this up
right here.
Okay, because a couple of weeksago you also delivered a class
out on the western side of thestate of Michigan and because I
was checking up on you, I wentand I read some of the reviews
from it and one of the reviewsreally stuck out in my mind was

(47:11):
that this person was so gratefulat the quality of training that
was received.
The quality of training thatwas received.
But then there was an addedthing that it was somebody from
their field that delivered it,and they talked about the
credibility, and so you blewthem away on two different
fronts.
And the thing is, is it now youlike?

(47:35):
It's like those federal jobs Ididn't know anything about.
You know, the, the, the.
Now this guy goes, wait.
So you mean being a goodquality trainer and delivering
good quality training is apossibility, something I could
potentially do.
Man, that's how you make thegenerational impact right there
and start on the west side ofthe state of Michigan.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Great.
That was such a fun class.
You know, I didn't know goinginto it because we were going to
do some role play and sometimespeople go, oh you know, but it
was report writing, depositionsand testimony and I have had few
classes where I had that muchengagement.
I mean, they were into theirroles.

(48:15):
We had prosecutors and defenseattorneys and the witnesses and
stuff and they were callingpeople to the stand and we
learned so much and I'm going totell you I learned as much from
watching those guys as theyever learned from me.
It was a great class.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Well, don't you think that?
Right, there is a sign of aprofessional instructor, the one
who learns because you just may.
When you said that, you made methink about that.
This will be the 55th time thatI've delivered this thing.
Yeah, but what have you learnedduring those 55 times?
You know well, because youshould have learned something
that should have had some impacton what you're delivering, but

(48:55):
if not, then all you're doing istalking.
You're not listening at all.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yeah, and that goes directly to command presence.
The like, fifth, sixth slide ona lot of our classes is what
Iron sharpens iron.
And that's absolutely true.
If you go out there thinkingyou are the only one that knows
something, you're never going togrow, you're never going to get
sharper.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
But if you go to the class thinking they can sharpen
me as much as I can sharpen them, what was I, you, when we
talked after your class and andyou're like mike man, I learned
so much that somebody broughtsome time.
You know, I never consideredthat and and and that.
Right, there is what.
That's what command presencetraining is all about.

(49:37):
It's about the shared ideas,because I really like, I really
liked the idea that we're notteaching the class, we're
facilitating the class, and andif we're humble enough as
instructors to allow, to allowourselves to be taught, then
things are going to be muchbetter in the classroom.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, in the classroom.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know Iwas lucky.
Well, I was lucky and I tookthe initiative.
But when I realized I didn'thave access to some of the
training that I wanted in mycareer I had a great wife and
she would set aside money once ayear.
I'd get to go pick a class andI dealt with a lot of what
you're talking about with thecorrections guys, because there

(50:21):
weren't corrections classes.
So I'd go out to Caliber Pressand I'd go to one of those
classes you know and I'd go tothis class or a firearms class
and it was all law enforcementclasses and I was the tag along
and I was getting what I couldout of it, which made me
valuable when I got back to work, because I had ideas and I had
knowledge outside of what myagency had taught me and I

(50:43):
credited absolutely to whatallowed me to go up in the
agency.
But I always felt like I waskind of the afterthought and I'm
so happy that we're comingtogether.
We're pushing to getcorrections their own training
with command presence.
Command presence does such agreat job with law enforcement

(51:05):
already.
It's not like we're, you know,like we don't have anything to
do.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
But, but.
But it's.
It's the opportunity to serveand underserve part of the
criminal justice profession.
And, mike, you and I we'vetalked about how the actions of
police officers on the streetcan have negative impact on the

(51:31):
safety of the officers withinour correctional facilities.
But the actions of the officersin our correctional facilities
can have negative impact on theofficers in our correctional
facilities, can have negativeimpact on the safety of our
community and for the policeofficers.
The truth of the matter is,most of those people are going
to be released back into societyand it's not just about safe

(51:51):
now, it's about safe goingforward, and that comes about
through good quality training.
And so, on behalf of commandpresence, I have to say thank
you, man, because you've beenfreaking, killing it, but but
we're not done yet, are we?

Speaker 1 (52:06):
no, no, we're not done.
Um, I, I and I'll go into youknow, I spent a lot of time this
summer, uh, developing classes,some of them command presence
was, had already been teachingsome stuff, so we took it and we
made it just for corrections,like leading without rank.
I mean, no matter what you'reat, even corporations need a

(52:26):
class about leading without rank.
You guys have been doing it forpolice.
We've we've retooled it andmade it specific to corrections
and we've brought that one outthere, um, essentials and
correctional excellence, whichfor me it's not only about not
just surviving but thriving as acorrectional officer and it's

(52:48):
also there's a part of that inthere.
That is just.
I want people to understandthat we're part of the criminal
justice system and we're a bigpart of it and we matter,
because I think sometimescorrections, they feel lost,
they feel like an afterthought.
So that's also part of that howyou're part of that system and

(53:10):
the important role you play.
What we've been doing with tiertwo is leading with when it hits
the fan, which has been a greatclass.
I mean we get to go into a lotof scenarios.
We get to talk about how todeal as a supervisor.
First on the scene.
Those first minutes matter.

(53:30):
How much do they matter?
Same as a police officer, thatpolice officer that first rolls
up on the scene determines a lotof stuff.
And as a detective, I bet yourealize that more than anybody.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Well, can I just throw something in there about
that Sure Leading when it hits afan?
Sure, this is something dude.
I admit I'm a simple person.
This is something I neverconsidered.
So during my time as a policeofficer, I was an accident
investigator, so if we had aserious accident resulted in
serious injury or death, I wasone of the people who would come
in and do the investigation.

(54:02):
Well, most of the time thatinvolves shutting down a road
right, and the bigger the road,the worse.
It was that people wanted toopen back up, but my boss was
always very good.
So you take all the time thatyou need.
I'll handle the calls from theirate citizens and stuff like
that.
But then, you know, got to gotto talking with guys from the

(54:22):
correction side.
So if you guys have a stabbingin the chow line, well, if you
keep that chow line shut downtoo long now, you run the risk
of more stabbings.
And so there are thesemultifaceted things when things

(54:44):
go wrong that you have toconsider.
We don't want to compromise theinvestigation, but we also have
to understand that we could becompromising safety the longer
this goes on, and so it was oneof those things I was blown away
by, and I think that leadingwhen it hits a fan does such a
good job of picking up thenuances that are specific to
corrections.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, yeah, people.
Containment, you know that'ssomething that on the outside
you don't think about, but inprison everybody has to contain
where they're at and if you'reon the medical ward you got to
get them doors shut.
You got to get those inmateslocked because things can grow
and anybody that's been inprison during a riot or a large
disturbance knows how quicklyit's like a fire that people

(55:28):
throw gasoline on and you've gotto have that containment in all
those areas.
You know just little stuff likethat, but that's what makes it
specific when we're teachingthat to corrections.
They understand that.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
You know they, they work in it, they deal with it
well, you know, I have a lot ofpeople that talk to me about, uh
, the the mental health crisisthat's going on uh in america,
and people say, well, you knowwhat?
We shut down all those of thoseinstitutions and now they're
out in the public.
So, not really, because I thinkmany of them are found,

(56:03):
unfortunately, in the homelesspopulation, but you also find a
lot of them on the correctionsthing, and so correctional
officers they're having tofulfill a role that was handled
for decades by specialists withspecialized training.
And now you have to do that,and with also keeping safety in

(56:26):
mind, if we want better results,then we have to provide better
training, and that's what we'restriving to do.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Command presence, and
I've got to sit through acouple of these trainings and
that's why I wanted to highlightthis.
I know some people are going tolook at the podcast today.
They go well, is thiscorrections oriented?
Because everything I've done iscorrections oriented on this
podcast.
This is absolutely correctionsoriented.
That's why I wanted you onthere.
I wanted to talk about thelevel of training that command

(56:56):
presence brings.
It's not just this guy and thatguy.
I've seen some amazinginstructors.
You're one of them.
You know.
I've sat there and listened toyou talk and you grab a hold of
a class, you engage them andyour knowledge and the way you
lead them through leadershipdiscussions I really like, like

(57:20):
I said earlier, leadershipdevelopment.
You're a student of it and youshow that in class.
John Bostain, vic Ray I mean,these are top-level instructors,
right, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
You know I don't know about you, but we also have
another new instructor thatmakes me feel old, miles Cook,
and you know the dude was namedlast year, in 2023, as one of
IACP's 40 under 40.
But, but the passion that dudebrings to a classroom, yeah, I
get to go.
Next week I'll be with him fora day in Huntington, west

(58:00):
Virginia, and I get to just sitand listen to him speak and
that's probably one of the bestthings about Command Presence is
getting to sit and listen toother people speak.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
It is yeah, and I'll tell you, I've sat through I
don't know how many EQ classesover my career given by the
Bureau of Prisons.
They told me about emotionalintelligence, what I needed, and
I sat through Miles's and itwas two hours, that's all it was
.
It was a little two-hour classand he said if you understand

(58:31):
this, it's a power skill for you.
And when I walked out of thereI believed it.
Miles has the ability to takeand he loves this, he loves
emotional intelligence and thatwhole area there.
But he takes that and he makesit personal.
He lets you understand thateverything you touch in life is
part of that.
It's not just something youbring out when it happens.

(58:53):
No, you live it.
He's so excited about it, itmakes you excited.
I was just jittery when Iwalked out.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Looking for a Coca-Cola in the machine.
You know, it's one of thosethings and I would throw it out
to your listeners.
One of the problems about beinginside a training company is
that it's its own type of tunnelvision.
Yeah, and so I would requestfrom your listeners here that,
man, if you see a place wheretraining is needed and it's not

(59:25):
being provided at a, not onlyfrom a delivery standpoint, but
from a research standpoint, at ain this profession, where they
need to be served, we want it tobe relevant and, mike, you know

(59:45):
this man we want people to beable to take what they hear in a
classroom today and apply it ontheir next shift, because if it
doesn't change what they do orhow they do it, or how they
think, then did we reallyaccomplish anything?

Speaker 1 (59:59):
Right, you're absolutely right.
And the report writing classthat was an example.
They came to us and they saidI've got correctional officers
that are dealing with this andthey're going to do depositions.
Can we put together a class andcommand presence?
Did we picked it up?
It's going to be a great classfor corrections.

(01:00:22):
More than just there.
Bring the ideas.
I just did that survey onLinkedIn.
That's kind of what I wastrying to find out.
What are people looking for?
What is the training that theyneed the most?
They need the most Some of thequestions I asked on there and
it's been going through my minddoes the training you're

(01:00:42):
receiving make you feel safer atwork?
That's something for you know.
We talk about retention andrecruitment.
If you're sending rookies andI'm sure law enforcement is the
same way, but I know incorrections it's scary you walk
in there, the door slams, it'sdark, you're surrounded by
people that you possibly don'tunderstand unless you grew up in
a pretty rough neighborhood.

(01:01:02):
Do you feel safe?
Do you feel like you have thetools you need to go do your job
when the time comes?
And if you don't, thensomebody's failing training, and
that's what I want to bring.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Well, Mike, you said something to me, man, that I had
to think about for a few days.
You were telling me that a lotof people in a correctional
environment will arm themselveswhen they feel unsafe.
The inmates will.
And staff too.
Yeah, and so.
But that's the whole thing.
When people don't feel prepared, if they're constantly

(01:01:41):
concerned with their own safety,then bad things are likely to
happen, because we startthinking with the amygdala and
reacting with the amygdala thananything else.
And that's where training andleadership come in, and if we do
those two things well,everybody's going to be safer.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah absolutely so kind of the, I guess.
To finish off here, I know oneof the and I want to touch on
this because it's been sopopular, even though it's not in
corrections your guys' FTOclasses that you've been doing.
Tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
So I've been to two FTO schools.
I've been to two FTO schools.
I've been to a supervising andFTO school as part of my
training when I was active, andkudos to Paul Biesinger who was
the primary architect behindthis.
How goofy is it?
We'll go with goofy becausethat's less judgmental how goofy
is it in law enforcement thatwe start grading people in the

(01:02:41):
FTO program on things in whichthey haven't been trained yet?
You don't do it in the medicalprofession.
You know, even our friends, thehose jockeys, the second
responders they don't do it.
You know what I'm saying.
But we do it.
And so Paul put together thisprogram that we call the CTE and
it's a coach train thenevaluate.

(01:03:02):
Let's give our people, ourbrand new people, all the tools
that they need to succeed, andour premise is that people
should earn their way out of theprogram.
They're given every tool.
If they don't make it, thenit's on them, and it has just

(01:03:23):
been such a blast watching.
We just delivered it last weekout in Lansing Michigan.
We've got several agenciesthere that are adopting it as an
agency.
But we started out the programtalking about how hard it is to
get people to work in thisprofession.
So if we recognize how hard itis to get people in, why don't
we set them up so that we canhold on to them?

(01:03:45):
Not just hold on to them forthe sake of holding on to them,
but set them up for success, sothat we're safer, they're safer,
and the community is safer,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
I want to thank you for passing my name on to John.
I love being part of this team.
It's been a fun year.
I'm excited about where we'regoing.
I'm excited, I know both sidesof the corrections and law
enforcement.
We've got new stuff playing,we've got classes coming up and
I'll put, I'll put all that inthe notes, um, uh, so that you

(01:04:20):
know who to contact.
But if you, like Michael said,if you just want to talk to one
of us and you've got this idea,give us a call and, uh, let's
talk about it.
It may be a class we candevelop.
It may be part of a class wealready offer, um, but, uh, yeah
, thank you for letting me bepart of this, thank John and all

(01:04:42):
the other instructors forletting me be part of this, and
thank you for coming on here andand helping me highlight what
we're doing here, and Iappreciate it well, brother, I
appreciate you having me on andand thank you for your, your
service.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
uh, the work that you've done, it has mattered,
and the beautiful thing is manis it continues to matter, and
so I can't thank you enough forthat.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Absolutely.
I appreciate you and I'll talkat you soon.
All right, brother, Take care,have a great day.
I would like to take a minuteto thank one of our sponsors
that make the Prison OfficerPodcast possible.
Omni RTLS is a company thatI've been working with for the
last year.
I am proud to be part of thisteam of correctional
professionals who have developedthe best real-time locating

(01:05:26):
system on the market today.
With Omni's real-time locationtechnology, you automatically
know the accurate locations andinteractions of all inmates,
staff and assets anywhere inyour correctional facility, and
you have this information inreal time.
Omni is cutting-edge softwarefor today's jails and prisons.
It is the only way to monitorevery square inch of your

(01:05:48):
facility while still being PREAcompliant.
Go to wwwomnirtlscom for moreinformation and to make your
facility safer today.
That's wwwomnirtlscom.

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93: Leadership and Innovation in Correctional Training - Interview w/Michael Warren

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}93: Leadership and Innovation in Correctional Training - Interview w/Michael Warren