97: Guard: Duty, Sacrifice, and Leadership - Interview w/Phillip W Parker - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, hello and welcome back to the Prison
Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday my guest is Philip W
Parker.
He was a warden at KentuckyState Penitentiary from 1993 to
2002.
After he retired in 2002, hereturned to KSP as warden from
2009 to 2011, for a total of 12years dealing with a maximum

(00:24):
security prison.
That is quite well known.
Parker began his career as acorrectional officer in 1978, or
as a guard as he refers to it,and we'll get more into that
later, because we're going tocover his book today.
Warden Parker is best known asthe first warden in 35 years to
oversee an execution byelectrocution in Kentucky a very

(00:46):
publicized event and somethingthat affected his life even to
now, and we'll talk some moreabout that.
He's also the author of Guard,a true story of duty, sacrifice
and leadership in Kentucky'smaximum security penitentiary,
so I'd like you guys to welcomehim to the podcast.
I'm excited to have him here.
How are you doing today, mrParker?

Speaker 2 (01:09):
That's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Excellent.
I always start my interviewsoff the same way.
I like to hear about you.
Know where you grew up.
Tell me what that was like.
What was it like when you wereyoung?
Where'd you grow up at?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Okay, I grew up in a rural community in western
Kentucky near a littlesettlement called Possum Trot.
It was awesome, I tell people Igrew up in Possum Trot,
kentucky, but it was a ruralarea.
I graduated from high school in1970.

(01:44):
And back then all the boys werewaiting to be drafted, and so
it was kind of hard to plan yourfuture knowing that you might
be drafted, probably would bedrafted.
Sure, came out with a lot oflottery.
My number was low, so I knew.
I would sooner or later have toenlist or be drafted.

(02:07):
As it turned out, I was draftedbut I didn't pass the physical
because I had flat feetunbeknownst to me because I had
practiced karate in college andI never knew my flat feet was an
achievement, but apparently itis.

(02:28):
I thought it was they thought sowhich at the time it was okay
with me.
Not many people wanted to gointo the service.
They wanted to go to theenlisted, but not many wanted to
go if they were drafted,because it's a sure thing you're
going to get.
So I would have done my, but Ijust wasn't selected.

(02:51):
So put me on the track tofinish college and started
bringing it.
I didn't know where but I endedup starting a career in a
district.
I was a crack law officer andthen was determined to work my
way up in the system.
I saw a lot of opportunity.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Let me ask you a question first.
So what was that?
How did you find that job?
Did you know people that workedin corrections?
Was this just luck of the draw?
Know?

Speaker 2 (03:24):
people that worked in corrections.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Was this just luck of the draw?
Well, as it turned out, I was.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
I had started teaching karate after I got my
black belt and sold my students.
I was teaching at theuniversity and in some local
dojos, but some of my studentswere guards or defense captains

(03:44):
at an adventure.
And that was back in the dayswhen they had what was called a
LEED grant law enforcement grantto go to college.
So they were thinking of coursemy class would have been an
easy class, so it had one hourto learn, I think after every 15
hours they got a 5% raise.
So they had a lot of motivationto go to college and that's how

(04:09):
.
I got to know them.
That was pretty good.
I was entering a tournamentthat I had been winning, but
anyway, they told me, if youever need, a job.
come see us, and so you know.
After about a year of graduateschool, I found out it's time
for me to do something else.
So that was really the only jobI had available to me that I

(04:31):
knew of, and I then signed upand entered the old castle, as
it's called, Sure sure, tell meabout that first day.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
What was it like walking here in the barters
clothes, looking up at, you know, the big stone walls and well,
of course I didn't have anyclose friends there.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Uh, so I didn't have very much to guide me.
I had people I knew, but Iwouldn't say they were close
friends.
Uh, sure, actually they weresupervisors, most of the people
I knew.
But when you see that place forthe first time, it just kind of
makes you stop and your mouthdrops.

(05:15):
It's like, oh my god.
I look at that place.
It looks like an old castle andit's situated on whether it
should be a river town or a roadand then it was dammed old
castle and it's situated on whatused to be a river town, on one
road, and then it was dammed.
I think it's set in the early60s and it formed a lake.
So the lake surrounds thepenitentiary and it looks like

(05:36):
an old castle.
It was built in the 1880s.
They brought over an Italianstonebason'sbason and they used
quarried limestone.
It's just amazing how they cutthe rock and constructed that
place without any modern tools.
It just still amazes me.

(05:57):
It's there's every block oflimestone block like a glove
they're not cemented in ormortared in.
They're just, they sit and it'severy guy is perfect.
And it's a it's a huge, hugeplace.
It's very intimidating.

(06:19):
First, my first, my first day Iwas going up the steps to the
front gate entry.
I saw men come out of the guntower right at the front steps
and they came out with shotgunsand they ran past me and I

(06:41):
thought my God, what's thatabout?
And I didn't know until laterin the day that three inmates
had escaped four cell houses.
That was my first day.
That's what greeted me as I wasgoing up the front gate was a
mass escape and officersscrambling to go out and catch

(07:02):
the three, which they did.
But at that time, in those days, there wasn't a control center
to open the gates, so an officerhad to key the lock and let me
in and I knew I was entering adifferent world as soon as I
stepped into that place.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Don't you think that's why they designed?
Because you take a look at theplaces designed Missouri State
Pen I've been to West Virginiaout there, kentucky State
Penitentiary you know thosethings were designed to
intimidate.
I think that was part of thelaw enforcement or the justice
thought was I don't want to bethere.
That's why they built it likethat.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
And so.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I think we feel that when we walk in for the first
time.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yes, I felt that way.
I'll give it a try.
I wasn't afraid.
I wasn't afraid, but I wasintimidated.
I think I never afraid in there, maybe once or twice, but it
was a whole new room for me,yeah.

(08:08):
It was you know small schoolguards that took me out of the
wing helped me a long time.
That lets you fumble around fora while, and then it will help
you.
And that's kind of what it was,but I could fumble around and
that's kind of embarrassing.
They tell you to go somewhere,report somewhere, and then you

(08:30):
laugh, this place is big.
And you think, okay, you don'twant to act like you don't know
where it is.
But anyway, they told me we hadto report to the original
hospital for a physical firstday.
And I went and I get there, Iwas with two other admirers and
we just, I mean, we walkedaround the yard and we thought

(08:51):
we'd see a sign at the hospitalor something.
We didn't.
So finally somebody fell to theAir Force and told us where we
needed to go.
So uh called the fish Fish.
Uh, fish officers.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
And inmates are called fish Fish officers and
inmates are called fish.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
I don't know if that's universal or if you're a
Kentucky country, but I don'tknow.
I've always wondered that ifother prisons call.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
I think inmates are called fish.
We weren't called fish, we were.
I mean nothing.
Rookie was a term of endearment.
It's called fish.
Yeah, we weren't called fish,we were.
I mean.
There's nothing.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Ricky was I mean that was the term of endearment when
you were new.
Well, we were called fish, Justlike the inmates new inmates
coming in were called fishinmates or fish gun well,
inmates, and we were called fishofficers.
So anyway, kind of exciting,Depressing.

(09:46):
To be honest with you, Ouruniforms were terrible.
You know, I work a lot of dayswithout even a pair of handcuffs
.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
I just work in the glory.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
A lot of officers want their own.
I'm not doing that.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
They want me to have handcuffs They'll give me
handcuffs.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
You know, I learned I never going to make an arrest
or take an inmate to the holewithout handcuffs.
And an old guard gave me that.
He said, you know, he saidafter it went down, I don't have
handcuffs, he said.
He said that's really not aproblem.
That voice, just tell them,just say, hey, come with me and

(10:27):
they'll go.
Once the fight's over, onceyou've broken up the fight or
stabbing, whatever it is, justtell them to go with you,
they'll go.
And if they don't, they knowwhat's going on.
You might have to fight themagain, but there's going to be
other officers coming and theydon't want to face that.
They'll go with you.
And sure enough, that's prettymuch how it went.

(10:49):
A lot of times I had to takedown and not have any handcuffs.
After we can say, hey, comewith me and they'll go.
Amazing, that's why we do it.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, and I remember a few times missouri state pen
was was violent like you'vetalked about in your book, like
kentucky was, and you might letan inmate walk in front of you
all the way down the hall to theseg unit because he wasn't
going to get cuffed, afraid notof you, but that he'd get jumped

(11:24):
again before he could get putin the hole.
You know most of them knew whenthey threw the first punch how
their day was going to end.
You know they knew they weregoing to the hole.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
They knew.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
They had no protection if you cuffed them,
other than the officer escort,right.
But at least they had afighting chance if they weren't
cuffed and I saw that play outseveral times Inmates would be
cuffed and be surrounded byinmates who wanted to kill them
or whatever, and that's a badsituation to be in.

(11:59):
I described one of thosesituations in the riot we had in
1986.
I had one of those situationsin the riot we had in 1986.
They were escorting an inmate,a group of inmates surrounded
them and was trying to kill theguy and they fought off these
inmates.
But about 10 minutes later afull-scale riot erupted.

(12:20):
But anyway, if you read thebook you'll see that incident
where the two officers in thedesk supporting that inmate
managed to fight them off longenough and the gun targets fired
warning shots at the same time.
So that helped too.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Anyway, Let me go to the book here.
You know you talked aboutgetting hired on as a
correctional officer.
But you know you talk aboutgetting hired on as a
correctional officer.
But you know you talk aboutbeing a guard.
And I'm going to the book here.
By 1977, the employeeclassification of guard was
changed to correctional officerone and two.

(12:56):
Correctional officer one was aclassification for officers
without a high school diplomaand correctional officer two was
reserved for those with a highschool diploma and Correctional
Officer II was reserved forthose with a high school diploma
.
The phrase fair, firm andconsistent became the
Correctional Officer's creed.
This was being taught in everystate and is still taught today.

(13:17):
We were told to useCorrectional Officer and inmate,
use correctional officer andinmate.
The terminology seemed morehumane and professional to all
of those that were includedinvolved.
To this day, however, I do notthink we ever won the battle to
change public perception to usethe new prison terminology.

(13:40):
People ask me if I started as aguard and I often tell them.
People ask me if I started as aguard and I often hear the term
jail or prison guard used innewspaper articles.
Most professionals in ourbusiness cringe when they hear
the word guard and as a warden Ipolitely use this to political

(14:03):
attorneys and news media Inretrospect decades after the
word guard became taboo.
I view it with affection,because most of my early mentors
started as guards.
They were not educated, theywere uneducated, or brutal or
not brutal.
They were tough, but they wereprofessional.
They were firm, fair andconsistent.
But make no mistake, they werestrong when they needed to be.
They were proud to be a guard.

(14:25):
And so tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
That's okay I agree, I absolutely agree well, um, I
started in a time period, wellin the late 70s, uh, when that
classification had just changed,and I, they, I, uh, well, I
showed a guard badge.
In the section of pictures inmy book there's a badge that

(14:50):
said guard.
Now, what's wrong with that?
Well, we were told that's areally bad word, though, and a
lot of people today I mean, I'msure, and that's one of the
criticisms I get in the book Isay you know, I always explain
it in the the book and you'llsee, it's not a bad thing, it's
an honor to call the guard.

(15:12):
My men, the men I had workedwith in the business, or at
least when I started.
They started as guards and theywere guards until they made
rank, until the classificationchanged and even when I retired
after I was warden first by them.

(15:33):
After nine and a half years aswarden, when I retired, some of
the old convicts now there'sthat word they'd been there
since I'd been there.
So we kind of grew up togetherinside that century and they
wanted to walk with me my lastday as a warden and uh, I said,
sure, come on, let's walk around, I'll walk around the yard.

(15:56):
These old convicts gangly, Imean, they had been really hell
racers in their younger days,but but they and they would go.
We're walking with the OG Now.
OG either means gangster or oldguard Right.
In prison context I said I'lljust accept that as an old guard

(16:18):
.
That's an author for them tocall me an old guard Right.
And if you call them Vicconvict, they say I'm not an
inmate, I'm a convict.
The older guys say that andthey're proud to be a convict,
and so you know, last time wewere on, I began to view the

(16:40):
term guard as a term ofendearment.
It's the people I admired themost in this business throughout
my entire career started asguards, so that's why I called
the book guard.
I think if I had called thebook press officer, I don't

(17:01):
think anybody would have calledit.
I was with him.
You want to see what that'sabout, and so it has kind of
created a lot of interest.
But it's not a bad word.
If you read the book you'll seeit's not a bad term at all,
even though we were taught neveruse it.

(17:22):
So anyway, that's myexplanation of card.
Not a bad thing.
It's not a bad thing.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
It's not at all, I've never minded it.
If you go back to some of mypaperwork which was years after
you In 1992 was when I was hiredIn the Missouri State Pen I
still have some of my originalcontract stuff that I signed,
you know, in HR and I still listGuard Because we were making
the change into correctionalofficer and when I named this

(17:48):
podcast, I've always thoughtcorrection, corrections,
correctional was a misnomer forwhat I did.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
I'm a prison officer.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
you know I'm a guard.
Now, does that limit me to bein a turnkey?
You know, like the 1700s?
No, I'm more than a turnkey,but that is what I started off
doing was turning keys.
So I don't mind it, I don't.
What do you think about some ofthe change that they're

(18:19):
bringing now?
You know the newest one is AICadults in custody.
They're trying to change theterm inmate like it's something
bad.
I don't think inmate's a badword.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Let me back up and say one thing I don't think.
I ever corrected an inmate.
I didn't see myself ascorrecting anything.
I didn't correct anything.
I guarded them.
Sure you know I guarded thecommunity, I guarded them inside
that prison so they wouldn'tthem.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
You know, I guarded the community, I guarded them,
Guarded inside that prison sothey wouldn't escape, sure, or
we tried our best to, and Iguarded them, kept them from
killing each other, but I nevercorrected one that I know of I
mean rehabilitation might be.
Yeah, we did that.
But as far as correcting, it'skind of a, I don't.
I'd rather think of us asprison cops, prison police or

(19:10):
something like that, but prisonofficers, if you want to call it
that.
That's another way to look atit.
Now, what was the secondquestion?
I didn't answer.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
So now they're saying inmates have made it work and
they've changed a lot of places.
You're trying to force adultsin custody or AIC.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Incarcerated people.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Incarcerated people.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
That's crazy Justice involved.
Yeah, exactly, I held theirconvicted felons, I mean all
convicts, it doesn't matter.
I mean that's crazy.
I don't get it.
I'm an old, old guy.
I wouldn't make it in that kindof environment today, because I
wouldn't do it.
I wouldn't do it, I'd sell, I'dsell.

(19:57):
And I would not sell pantiesand bras in the commissary, not
in my prison, not in my prisonNot in my prison, we're not
going to but it's happeningtoday in that prison right here.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
It is.
I saw somebody and.
I was headed out, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Well, in my term as warden for about 17 years, I was
wardening a lot and I ran tojail after I got done with all
the prison.
So anyway, about 17 years as a,and there was something it came
out with, something out ofheadquarters that was

(20:40):
controversial, I mean somethingthat I couldn't live with or
something I thought was deadwrong.
I talked about it.
I said we're not doing that,we're something that I couldn't
live with or something I thoughtwas dead wrong.
I'd talk about it, I'd say we'renot doing that, and I got by
with that.
I don't know how, but I did.
I ended up doing it.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Don't you think the old-time wardens?
You know that was yourinstitution.
You were expected to dowhatever it took to run that
institution, and now they'vestacked on everybody's a
micromanager.
They've stacked on all theselayers of of supervision on top
of the wardens.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
The wardens can't even do their job well, that's a
little bit of that I Like.
When we had a nutritionist, forexample, in our headquarters
central office, we called it andshe was directing all the food
service managers and all thepresidents to do this, do that,
do that.
And I'd get surprised.
I ate at least one meal a dayin mess hall.

(21:39):
Sure, I just made it my dailybreakfast.
I'd go in 5, 530 and gostraight to the best hall and
get the same train the inmatesgot.
I'd get in line with them, I'dtry to sit down with them.
They'd be sitting with them alot of times, but anyway, that's
just the way I operated.
I didn't take a bodyguard, Ididn't do any of that, I just

(22:05):
went and got trained, hadbreakfast with them and this
allowed me to.
Anyway, let's get back to thepoint.
The nutritionist would dictatethis, dictate that.
And they took pepper away andthey took coffee away, and so
they were doing this.
Because I'm the one that's gotto face this when I go out on

(22:26):
the yard.
And they said I don't thinkWayne gets salt and pepper
anymore.
And the last question, my foodservice manager why aren't they
getting salt and pepper?
Well, because it's bad fortheir health.
It raises their blood pressure.
I said what in the hell are yougoing to tell me?
You know?

Speaker 1 (22:43):
because they thought well for the nutritionists, I
see you do it Really, okay?

Speaker 2 (22:51):
No, I see you don't work for the nutritionists, you
work for me and that was astruggle, and other areas like
religion and so on, and in myday, well, I just wouldn't.
God probably love it.
Some battles aren't worthfighting.
But no, we're going to showdown.
Cut this guy up, set theinmates like salt and pepper

(23:16):
away, and he better tell meabout it.
You know, I better talk aboutit before I go out there and
face the inmates.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
And.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
I'll either buy into it or I won't.
And I finally said this is asmall issue, salt and pepper.
I finally said and I'm going touse a little bit of bad
language here I said damn it.
Morton said I'm telling you,put salt and pepper on the line.
They put their things in one.

(23:44):
Well, I'll get in trouble.
I said, said no, you're notgoing to get in any trouble.
I said I should do it.
And I insisted.
And so that's the way I had tooperate sometimes, to stand up
and say we're not doing that.
So I don't know if they do itthese days.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
I don't know, probably not well, now, I think
you know the nutritionistinmates have diets, so this
inmate may have one diet wherehe's allowed this and this one
may have another diet where he'sallowed this.
It is what it is, so we talkedabout you being a warden here.
So let's take that step fromcorrectional officer until you

(24:22):
got up to warden.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Tell me about those steps officer until you got up
to warden.
Tell me about those steps.
Well, you know, I had a goodopportunity to go ranks through
the security and I wanted to.
But I had a college degree whenI started, which was kind of
rare for a guard to have acollege degree.
So I had more opportunitiesprobably than just the average

(24:44):
Drexeloff's.
I had a degree because a lot ofthose jobs like case manager,
whatever you have to have adegree.
I did not want to be a casemanager, I wanted to stay as a
Drexeloff.
So my first job well, my firstpromotion really wasn't a
promotion, but I was Whartonasked me to be his

(25:07):
administrative assistant.
I did all his paperwork prettymuch not all of it, but most of
it.
I wrote all these letters andresponses to inmates and
responses to grievances.
I did a lot of investigationsand so forth.
I did that for a couple ofyears I don't know about three
years investigations and soforth.
I did that for a couple ofyears I don't know about three

(25:28):
years.
And then I was promoted to.
I was promoted for about a yearinto a position called
administrative specialist, whichwe were under a big lawsuit,
and so I was the one thatdocumented our compliance with
the lawsuit and provided thatinformation to the attorneys and

(25:51):
within about a year and a halfthat job came almost no job, we
had lied with all of it.
So then I was promoted programdirector and that put me in
charge of the inmate legal aid,the recreation department,
chapel, religious programs andkind of inmate work programs and

(26:16):
so forth.
Well, I did that for anotherthree years and then I made that
big work.
I made that big work in anotherprison.
They there four years came backto the penitentiary as Deputy
Warden Finally, and then Itransferred to Ohio as a Deputy
Warden.
So I was a Deputy Warden inwhat's that?
Three institutions and thenOhio promoted me to Warden, my

(26:40):
first Warden job in Warden, ohio.
So I thoroughly enjoyed Ohio.
It was a really good system.
That's a good system, reallygood.
They operate way moreconservative than Kentucky was

(27:00):
operating at and I liked that.
I said that's the way I thoughtthe prison system should be run
.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
And.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
I went to order and they did a good job, but
Kentucky was home, so you wentback there in the year.
Yeah, I went right back to whereI started, and the reason why
is I was tempted.
I found out that they hadpassed a new regulation to make

(27:34):
all positions security positionswell, all the positions inside
the prison.
As for students, what thatmeant is a little bump in and
another great deal.
A bump and a 20 year retirement.
I've got to go back to that 20year retirement and they pay
your retirement on your fiveyears.
So I would be eligible justabout as soon as I transferred

(27:59):
back as Lord.
Within a few years I'd be ableto retire.
Of course that didn't happen, Ididn't retire.
And then a few years I'd be offto the rehire.
Of course that didn't happen, Ididn't rehire.
But anyway, that's why I cameback to Kentucky.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
So any issues you know you left Kentucky State
Penitentiary in a lower rank.
You come back as a warden.
Any issues there?
Leadership issues.
Yeah, any issues there,leadership issues.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, there was.
Yeah, as you can imagine, evenwhen I was a deputy warden, they
sent me back to the dentistryas deputy warden of security
after a man's escape in 1988.
They had eight inmates escapefrom segregation unit, you

(28:46):
couldn't have had picked eightworse inmates, and that's a
whole bookend of itself, rightthere?

Speaker 1 (28:53):
Tell me a little bit, though, because that's
interesting.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
It is very.
It is very interesting.
I wasn't there at the time.
Now I got a phone call to theinmates who escaped about 1.30
at the time.
Now I came, I got a phone call.
The inmates escaped about 1.30in the morning.
Okay, it's a very elaborateescape and we don't have enough
time to go into how they managedto do all that.
Okay, the inmates had got atrack on their cell door which

(29:20):
allowed the door to swing out.
Okay, but the door stilloperated.
Allowed the door to swing outOkay, but the door still
operated electronically likeit's supposed to.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
I don't know if you can picture that.
Okay, yep.
So they found out to make thissmall cut on that track and the
door would hinge out and theycould go out and they'd have the
lights in the midnight shift.
They'd have the lights soinmates could sleep and they had
big pedestal fans running whichgrounded out the noise and,

(29:54):
fortunately for the inmates,they had a lazy officer on the
shift that didn't make rounds.
Okay, that's all it took, and17 had to cut out ready to go.
Then 8 got out and they workedfor months cutting a hole
through the window.

(30:14):
And then the 9th one going outthe hole.
8 had already escaped.
The 9th one was caught by asergeant who was making rounds
on the outside.
He was out there counting theinmates and the trustees.
They had little quartersoutside inmates.
We called them trusteeswhatever Third night, 19 or 20

(30:37):
of them.
He was out there counting thereto make sure everything was okay
.
There wasn't an officerstationed there all night, he
just started.
An officer stationed there allnight.
It was all required, but anywayhe spotted the knife coming out
and he had checked out thisoutside room.

(30:58):
He was called.
Anyway, I'm going to fastforward through something.
Well, that same morning I got acall from headquarters saying we
need you to put together aresponse team.
We call it E-Squad, I think nowthey call it SIR.
Put together a SIR team and Itell them the penitentiary is

(31:24):
200 miles away, Get there asquick as you can because it's
out of control.
The inmates were setting firesinside the prison.
They were doing everything theycould do, Drunk all staff back
off the manhunt and that wouldgive the aid escapees more time
to get away.
So the place was out of control.
Even though everything waslocked down, they were still

(31:45):
setting fire, they were floodingthe walls, they were doing
everything they could to drawthem back in and for the most
part it was work.
So I put together a team ofwell, I forgot, it was at least
12 officers and we got there asquick as we could.
We had to act.

(32:06):
Enough stuff.
We knew we'd be there for a fewdays or a few weeks we go
respond back to other prisonsfor sending in response things.
We probably had, I'm going toguess, about 150 officers from
all over the state, 150 plus.

(32:26):
That number would also includeall the state police that
responded, drug dogs and soforth.
And then we had support fromthe National Guard.
They gave us helicopter use andlike vision goggles.
Well, mostly that they didn'tgive us manpower, the helicopter
used and, um, like visiongoggle, and well, mostly that,

(32:47):
um, they didn't get us manned byher, so we didn't ask for it,
but uh, anyway.
So so we went on this man huntfor the next and it was.
It was kind of interesting, tosay the least, but we were in
the meantime.
We were getting called back tothe prison without literal
powers or disturbances, and thattook us away from manhood.

(33:12):
We called one the next morningand then we called two more.
Let's see, Trying to get thisstraight now you might have to
read the book.
We come up to war and they hadmade it.
They stole a car and made it toeastern Kentucky and somehow

(33:33):
they'd gotten a gun.
They had to shoot out.
Anyway, nobody was shot butthey had to shoot out with state
police and our staff in easternKentucky.
That was captured and broughtback.
The inmates got to a kind of aresort town over in Tennessee.

(33:54):
It was on a lake, it was onBartley Lake, and they broke
into.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Well, first of all, I don't know where they got the
gun.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
I never did understand where they got the
gun.
But they had a gun.
They shot the telephone box.
This old man and woman livedthere, a retired couple.
They shot the telephone box sothey couldn't call for help and
then they stopped them throughtheir bedroom window and they

(34:23):
went in at Grand Sack House, gotmoney and guns and their car
and they made it all the way toMexico.
They made it all the way theycrossed the border of El Paso
and they were running out ofmoney.
But one said I'll have somemoney to wire the Western Union.

(34:44):
And he did.
He made a phone call and hadhis family wire the money.
But One said I'll have somemoney to wire to the Western
Union, and he did.
He made a phone call and had hisfamily wire the money, but they
must have told the FBI.
I don't know, because anywaythe FBI was waiting for him
across the border to get themoney.
And then the Mexicanauthorities knew that were the
two inmates where I guess he ranit on.

(35:05):
I'm sure he did, and theysurrounded the motel, drug them
out, threw them across theborder illegally to the FBI
waiting on the other side.
Now they spent the next 17months in the El Paso jail

(35:25):
filing that tradition, and whenthey got his filing the Supreme
Court refused to hear it.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
So now they're free to be extradited back.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
We charged them with escape and stealing a vehicle
and something else.
Then we turned them over toTennessee.
They faced charges.
All we turned them over toTennessee.
They faced charges.
All three of them were on thedeath row in Tennessee Last time
I checked when I was writingthis book, two of them had died
natural causes and one of themis still on death row in

(35:58):
Tennessee.
So I mean to be out of thatstory.
It's I mean it's be out of thatstory.
I mean it's one of the worstthings you can think of in a
prison Besides an employeegetting killed.
But here we had two innocentpeople, tired people.

(36:19):
They should have lived outtheir life in a resort area on a
lake and they get murdered inthe middle of the night by
convicts.
I mean that's a pretty heavyburden there.
So as that turns out in theaftermath investigation.

(36:40):
I thought I was done with it.
After we called all the inmateswhatever.
We went back to normaloperations.
I took my team back.
We thought we were home free.
And then I got a phone call.
They wanted me to go replacethe deputy warden.
They kind of blamed the deputywarden for black policies or

(37:01):
whatever, for poor leadership,and so I got tapped on the
shoulder to go back, kind ofblame the deputy warden for lack
of policies or whatever forleadership, and so I got tapped
on the shoulder to go back.
The place was out of control.
So anyway, I write about that.
I did my part, I went back.
I didn't walk through but I did, and the place was out of
control.
It really was out of control.

(37:23):
There was very littleleadership, everybody was beat
down, the morale was terriblylow.
So I go back as deputy wardenand all these old school guards
a lot of them were lieutenantsand captains when I started.

(37:45):
They're still there aslieutenants and captains and now
I'm their boss.
So it was a little awkward, butI called everyone in
individually and said hey, look,you gotta work with me.
We're gonna take this placeback.
We're gonna be a little heavyhanded right now.
We're gonna jerk a lot in theirass, but you won't face any

(38:06):
problems from me, and the courthas given.
I've been given a mission toget this place under control and
you got to be with me on myteam and we're going to do it.
And that's how I kind of facedup to them and told them here's
what we're going to do andhere's how we're going to do it.
And there for a while we were alittle heavy-handed.

(38:27):
We never had any repercussions.
You'll read in the book.
A couple times we gave air cutsto them.
We just tried to get themrolling and we did.
It got better, but it's notenough.
We were still having officersget what we call shit down.
You know they get in my throatfeces all over.
It was happening way too muchand that was one monster I never

(38:54):
quite conquered.
You know it's still good ifthey want to.
You've got to make them notwant to.
And that's when I said we needa heavy-handed group.
No more soft.
No more take the gloves off.
They sit down and officer theirfair game you get cops off.

(39:15):
You know, so, um, here's thefirst heavy-handed whoops.
Handed all these guys a jailer.
Once it's over, I don't want tosee anybody getting wrapped up
after it.
So that's the rule we're up toyou gotta go in hard and fast.
Yeah, where's the income?

Speaker 1 (39:37):
okay, that's what we did.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
I've been doing that.
It had been a soft.
They were free to make video bythen.
Me to have been to my dad.
They had been a soft friend.
They were free to make video bythen.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
And.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Deputy Warren was criticized and everything.
And talking about how you doall this.
So they just kind of gave inand they weren't being shh, they
weren't.
I think it's important.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, I think it's important to mention, because a
lot of people that work incorrections these days don't
work in places with open bars.
Open bars is a whole differentworld and you had open bars
there at.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
KSP At that time we did.
So that working thereAbsolutely Race through the bars
and grab you.
At that time we did, yeah, sothat working there is Absolutely
Restrict the bars and grab you.
Of course, when I was anofficer I never knew that.
Well, they had no idea what washappening at one time, but it
already made up my mind.
They might restrict bars.
Grab me, I'm going to break hisarm.

(40:39):
I mean, I'm not even going tothink twice about it.
He's out, but he'll gone in,right, he tries to reach through
the bars.
You know, it'd be really easyto break an arm.
Yeah, and as far as the zoneofficers, they just didn't have,
they didn't dare do that Right.

(41:02):
Very blind, they didn't dare dothat Right.
Bear in mind, you didn't havecameras.
Back in my day, when I was anofficer Sure, no video cameras.
It hadn't even been like this,right.
And here's the other thingthat's going to surprise a lot
of people you did not havepolicies.
There were policies andprocedures, right.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
You had to follow the orders of your supervisor.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
There were those corners in a few places, but it
was vague, it didn't tell youanything.
So you relied on your training,common sense and supervisors to
operate the person.
That's how it was operated andthankfully, a memo would come
out from the board and, whateverthe issue was, he'd put out a

(41:56):
memo.
Well, they would read the memoat roll call.
But I was out of here onvacation that week, and no, the
memo came out, and so obviously,it was.
You're just kinda it's the wayoperating, I guess operated.
But that's the way we operateduntil a warden came in and

(42:16):
started writing.
We started writing policies andprocedures and we bought a
video camera and you know, andwe bought a video camera and
that was the beginning.
I was there before andthereafter.
Of course after is a better wayto manage a prison, for sure.
But my point is, in the daysbefore we had policies and

(42:37):
procedures and before we hadcameras, inmates wouldn't throw
BC's and before we had camerasthe inmates wouldn't throw ACs
on the officer.
It just never happened becausewe would.
I didn't have to get permissionto go in the cell and get an
inmate out or whatever do a cellextraction.
I'd do it by myself.
I didn't rely on my own commonsense and what it was.

(43:03):
It well, I got us my own commonsense and what it was.
Well, it got us in troublebecause some officers would do
that and wouldn't write a reportand it kind of got out of hand.
This lady just kind of got to aclose when we started using

(43:26):
policies and procedures andvideo cameras that were not
abusing force and distractingthe inmates from cell.
That's always video based nowand I assume it is everywhere.
Probably officers have bodycameras now?

Speaker 1 (43:41):
yep, there's a lot of them.
Well, we did anyway, so it wasa dip and unfortunately,
probably, officers have bodycameras now?

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yep, there's a lot of them, oh yeah, anyway.
So it was a different andunfortunate.
We'll take you from the olddays like that to the new days.
Now everything is by policyprocedure.
We're accredited, we have postorders on every post, we have

(44:04):
prescribed ways of doing things.
I'll tell you, in the old daysit just wasn't like that.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
It just.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
As long as you had a little bit of common sense and
you knew right from wrong, youwould do fine and you know you
would do okay.
You know he would do okay.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Unless you were just broken on.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Unless you enjoyed beating up inmates, that didn't
happen that much, not really.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
There's always 1%, there's always 2% we still have
those.
There's always 1%, there'salways 2%.
We still have those.
A video came out the lastcouple of weeks with some
officers throwing some punchesthat just absolutely didn't need
to be done.
An inmate died, so it stillhappens these days.
That's not a representative ofthe profession, that's just the

(45:00):
fringe bunch.
But yeah, and I want to say foreverybody you know we're talking
about a lot of stories here outof your book, but you're not
even touching most of the book.
You know we're just talkingabout a few of them here.
So I do recommend that, if youget the chance, go to Amazon,
and Guard is the book by PhilipW Parker, so I do want to

(45:23):
encourage everybody to actuallyread it.
You'll get all the stories.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
I've had some good reviews and the book is selling
pretty well.
But one of the things thatmight surprise people is I was
awarding the last electricfusion engine and actually it
was the first execution in 35years.
I happened to be a warden whenwe executed an inmate by

(45:49):
electrician.
Then I wrote in the law offaith and we started lethal
injection in 1999.
I was the warden who conductedthe first lethal injection, so I
took the reader behind thescenes and things had happened.
It had, uh thanks.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
It happened especially between Let me go to
the book Cause I've got a spothere.
That sums that up pretty good.
I met with McQueen on Sundaymorning to offer a last meal.
I told him he could orderanything within reason.
Mcqueen doesn't hesitate.
Warden, all I want ischeesecake.

(46:26):
That's it?
Yep, that's it.
Jokingly, I replied I wasafraid you'd order a T-bone
steak or something.
Cheesecake is my favorite food,mcqueen said matter-of-factly,
and I'm going to skip ahead justa little bit.
Afterward I gently described theprocedure we would follow in
the minutes leading up to theexecution.
I told McQueen I would come tohis cell and say it is time.

(46:50):
I wanted to assure him that Iwould safeguard his dignity.
We would not cuff you ormanhandle you in any way.
You are a man.
You can walk and sit down onyour own.
Yes, I will, mcqueen, agree,you will not have any problems
with me.
The reason I picked that isbecause I think people have this
uh, this Hollywood, you knowpicture of what goes on and

(47:14):
you're showing compassion there.
You know, at this time and Ithink that's important for
people to understand that thereis compassion, there is empathy,
but it's a job.
So tell me some of that.
That had to be tough.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
That was tough.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Let me say this.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
I was there when he came into the system in 1981, I
believe it was.
So I had known this guy for 20years.
What I was.
So I'd known this guy for 20years.
He was never a problem, he wasalways respectful.
Now he committed a heinouscrime.
When he was on drugs, drunk andon drugs, he held up a store

(47:58):
and played it nine and killed acar.
Terrible crime.
He appropriately got a deathpenalty.
I didn't have Right.
He appropriately got a deathpenalty.
I didn't have any qualms abouthim receiving a death penalty,
but once he got in prison.
he was off drugs.
He was a totally different man.
He was and I think anybody thatworks in prison systems has to

(48:20):
say the same thing these men arejust.
You wonder how they could everLook out in prison when kind of
say the same thing.
These men are just.
You wonder how they could everlook out in prison when they're
not on alcohol or drugs.
Oh, there's a good thing.
We did bad things and that'sthe way I view them, very polite
to me.
Never got a write-up, I knowthat.
And then we had to.

(48:41):
Actually that's a little tough,actually that's a little tough
to do now.
I would do it I would.
I mean it'd be easier.
That was never easier.
What is what really and ithaunts me still is I don't know

(49:05):
if you've read the part where hesaid I didn't have a piece of
cheesecake.
It was so good and I looked atit.
I knew there was cameras allaround and we were feeding the
video all the way to thegovernor's office, the
headquarters of that commandcenter, our command center, and

(49:25):
I mean everybody's watching, andI was faced with a situation
where this guy is so earnest inasking me where is that piece of
cheesecake?
So good.
So not knowing what, I said.
Well, hell, that's the rightthing to do.
So I sat down and he got me apiece of cheesecake and threw me
and I ate it.

(49:47):
Now, that's something the mediadoesn't know, that's something
that I'm exposing it in the bookfor the first time.
But how could I not have apiece of cheesecake?
So I sat down and his chaplainwas there and we had a good

(50:09):
conversation and I finally askedhim.
I said how are you doing?
I mean, are you really doing it?
He said well, you don't worryabout me, I know I'm a bit lower
than a couple of hours.
Okay, I'm glad you feel that way.
Thank you, bill.
That's when I said okay.
I have to leave but before Ileave, I want to tell you what

(50:30):
is going to happen.
Next we're going to shake yourhead.
I'll give you a shower.
Then, when I come for you, I'mjust going to walk up and say
it's time you walk in on yourown.
I'll walk with you, and soforth Now talking about his
final words and so forth, butanyway, all of that is the
behind-the-scenes stuff, themedia never knew about and the

(50:51):
same thing happened on thelethal injection.
A different scenario with theinmate on the lethal injection
gave me a mission, so to speak.
He asked me to do something forhim after his execution and I
didn't want to do that either,so I did.
And those two things, both ofthose situations, kind of still

(51:14):
haunt me.
I get a little tree-eyed when Ithink about sitting down and
this guy's pleading with me I'msure he's last minute with me.
It's just kind of there's nohate or hostility, trust me,
there's none.
And the other in, there was nodeath.
Do a favor for him.

(51:35):
He didn't ask his son, he didn'task his chaplain, he didn't ask
his priest.
He asked me why I've alwaysthought it's me.
Why didn't he tell me that I'vealways thought it's me?
Why didn't he do it himself?
He could have.
I had to deliver a message tohim, what they love.
I mean, it was a given-me-fallcall Do it himself.
He wouldn't have delivered itso and I did, and that kind of a

(51:59):
haunting situation.
I wrote about that.
I called it the warden's curse.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
I'm glad you put it in the book because it speaks so
much to the compassion thathappens in prison.
I've never been part of anexecution but I worked at a
medical center for 14 years so Iknew a lot of inmates who
passed away and I don't tell alot.
I've mentioned it.
But it passed away and I don'ttell a lot mentioned it, but
it's not something I hold out.
But I've been there wheninmates died and they're in a

(52:29):
room, nobody else there, and allthey want is to hold your hand
while they die.
And I've held the hand twice ofinmates as they passed away.
As you feel the cold, you know,leave from there, or the heat
leave from their body.
And how do you not do that?
You?
know, as a human, once you getto the point that you can't have

(52:51):
some humanity, it's probablytime to not be working in a
prison, you know.
So I'm really glad that you putthat in there.
I thought it was a very movingpart of the book.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Thank you.
And like I say, that's behindthe scenes and that's something
that's kind of surprised a lotof people, I think, when they
read about executions, just howcompassionate we were and how
respectful we were.
You know, you mentioned holdingthat guy's hand.
That's what an old guard does.
Yeah, that's what an old guarddoes.

(53:24):
Yeah, you know that's what anold guard does.
Sure, an old guard hascompassion, but he'll beat your
brains out, but he'll also showgenuine compassion and humanity.
You'll see it time and timeagain with old school guards and

(53:45):
I consider myself an old guard.
One other thing about my term incorrections from the best.
Like I said in the beginning, Ilearned from old school guards
and they're official old schoolguards and I respected them so
much I tried to be like them.
They were tough, but they werealso, like I said, compassionate

(54:09):
.
They tried to do the rightthing.
For the most part they weren'tabusive at all.
There were a few that were, butthat was the exception.
Now, as I progressed after Ibecame, especially when I became
a warden, you know, I used togo in often I said you know, I'm

(54:29):
just a correctional officer,I'm a guard who happens to be
sitting in a warden's chair, soI never want to lose sight of
that.
Security and control comesfirst, everything else is second
.
In other words, these programsare all nice, but if you like
mowing the grass when your houseis on fire, you don't do that,

(54:51):
but fire out first.
And that's the way I look atrunning a prison.
I wanted to get control of thedamn place before you can have
any kind of problems.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
And.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
I had to remind myself of that constantly.
Parker, you're just a crashloss if you happen to be sitting
in the warden's chair.
And that's the way I approachedmy job and it worked for me.
It worked for me.
I could have stayed as long asI wanted to, I guess, but it was
unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah, they would.
I wanted to, I guess.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
But it was unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Yeah, they would.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
They would, I'm sure they would yeah, but you know
the job I started wearing them.
There's this thing called PTSD.
Tell me a little bit about whatyou've been dealing with.
Here's what happens to you.
I think, if you're in a hotseat, like where every day is

(55:51):
danger, every day it's dangerevery day and you better against
the wall and keep your head onthe swivel.
I mean, you're just that kind ofawareness.
You better just that kind ofawareness.
You better have that kind ofawareness.
You walk that yard and I'd walkthis warden without a bodyguard

(56:11):
.
I mean I'd go out there becauseI still saw myself as a stress
loss.
I did that in that suit and tieand I'd break a fight, I'd
rescue suicide attempts while Iwas making rounds.
So I mean I'm not too good todo any of those things when I
just because I'm a whore, butyou, over the years, that

(56:38):
constant exposure to stress andtrauma.
you won't even know it, butit'll start.
It'll start.
It's followed away in the backof your mind and I always think
it doesn't bother me.
I can see murders I had.
I mean horrible murders.

(56:59):
I had a friend of mine killedone day at work.
We showed him Christ's foodservice worker.
On March 1st 1984, pat Ross wasmurdered at food service and I
was there that day.
I helped escort the inmates tointerrogation those things,

(57:24):
those things, those things whenyou come back, not individually
one individual thing, but it'sjust being, it's once.
I've heard years of puttingthat.
It's got to have an effect onyou, trust me it will.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
It's like drops, being tortured with drops yeah,
it's like.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
I used the example in the last chapter that it's like
you know, if you start to, Inever certainly you're going to
go blind.
That's the way that explainsPTSD.
You go into that fire, you gointo that when that gate slams
behind you.
You go in every day.

(58:11):
You know you're going to be ina useful situation, you know
you're in a place of danger,things are happening and you
can't get away from it until youleave.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
In my case, I couldn't get away from it until
you leave.
In my case, it's more than Ican get away from it because of
the damn phone rates.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
I never got away from it, and so it ate away at me.
It really did when I retired.
That's when I retired Well lastyear it was, but they had last
year before, but they had aparty.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
If you don't mind, because there's people out there
I know that are going throughthe same thing.
What did you notice?
What was it that kind of toldyou?
Something's wrong here If youdon't mind talking about it.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
A lot of things will happen to you.
For one thing, yourrelationships with your family
will be really strained.
In my case, I started drinkingbut I got it worse Because you
know I was well.

(59:24):
Your spouse can't relate whatyou're thinking.
They just can't.
You're I don't know what yousaw.
You can't understand the thingsyou saw, but you take them home
and you try to.
You know, first thing I didwhen I get home was take a
shower.
Wash that shit off me, thatshit off me you know it's funny.
When I worked, especially when Iworked the certification unit,

(59:45):
the first thing I did I couldn'tget home, get tired, get off of
it.
You know, off of beer, have afew drinks.
That's just what happens in mylife.
I smoked cigarettes, I waschain-smoking, I smoked back to
day, sometimes free, and drink.
I get drunk every night, freeand drink.
I get drunk every night butdrink.

(01:00:08):
Those are things you'll do or atleast I do and people I know do
and your relationships withyour family gets very strange
because they don't understandwhat you're going through and
you don't want to talk about it.
The last thing I wanted to dowhen I came home was believe it,
so you have no one to talk toexcept unless you're around.

(01:00:33):
A lot of the officers had,every day after work they'd go
to a certain spot or some casesit'd be probably a park, A
little park right around theclosest to the best entry.
They'd already have cold beerin their car and they'd buy
those beers and get drunk beforethey went home.

(01:00:53):
Yes, sir, oh, that's just theway.
I sat there a while and thosekinds of things.
Then you can't sleep very well.
I was lucky to get four hourssleep most nights.
Lucky to have four hours sleep,and I mean health-wise.

(01:01:16):
Blood pressure went sky high,so you take medication for that.
I wouldn't take anything tohelp me sleep.
I didn't get hooked on thatcrap.
But anyway, there's just awhole host of mental things that
happens to you and eventuallybreak you down, I don't care how
strong you are.
Eventually, you're alone withyour thoughts.

(01:01:38):
You live after you retire.
That's when it comes back andslaps you right in the face.
It knocked me down.
It it after you come back?
It slapped you right in theface.
I mean it.
It knocked me down.
I just couldn't believe I washaving these, uh nightmares.
I'd wake up nightmares.
I've had flashbacks.
I was uh drinking more.
Uh, I was just angry.

(01:02:01):
I could get angry and drop myhead for over nothing did you
know what it was?

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
did you know it was PTSD?
One of the doctors had to tellyou.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
I didn't know, until I was suicidal and it's kind of
a hard thing for me to talkabout.
But years after I retired, Istarted writing this book and I
finally said, you know, and I'dwritten some of the book and I
was having all these couldn'tsleep, all these issues and

(01:02:37):
drinking.
I finally said, you know, Idon't live this way anymore, I'm
tired of it, I just don't wantto go on like this.
And I didn't know what waswrong with me.
Anyway, I said, lee, lee, I did.
I sat there one night I'm goingto say this and this part

(01:02:58):
probably isn't in the book, butI'm saying this in case there's
officers out there who feel thisway.
Right, I had a fifth of whiskeyand a nine-millimeter, a
three-millimeter block, athree-caliber block.
They're on the nightstand rightbeside the whiskey bottle and

(01:03:20):
I'm slugging the whiskey and I'mthinking I just don't want to
let this way anymore.
And so I thought let's see whatthis National Suicide Hotline
crap is all about.
So I called them, them and wefor a while.
And uh, and they say, they said, well, you need to get some
help.
I mean, they said, well, anyway, I'll let you go.

(01:03:44):
And that was.
They should have called anambulance, but they didn't.
They didn't, and so I justcontinued to sit there and I
finally said you know what?
I I'm going to give one otherthing a try.
I'm going to go see if I canfind a doctor that has some kind
of medicine that will help me.
And I was lucky.
I found one that understoodwhat, because he had been in the

(01:04:07):
military.
I said here what's happening tome?
He said I understand.
I said what's happening to me?

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
He said I understand I said well, yes, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Yeah, it's crying.
You had a severe case of PCS,he said he said you're, I can
help.
He wrote three prescriptions.
He said try this, if thatdoesn't work, we'll try
something else.
And so that kind of pulled meout of the hole.
Plus, I went or going back tochurch and I turned faith.

(01:04:39):
I tried.
I quit drinking for a while,but I thought I'm still drinking
, but I'm not getting drunkevery night.
I am unhappy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
I am unhappy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
There's a big difference, but I still struggle
.
It has not gone away.
It will never go.
I've learned this about it itwill never go away.
Once you have it, you have it,you can't unsee the things you
saw.
Okay, and you have to rellevelthem.

(01:05:12):
To some extent it's worse whenyou talk about it and people say
why don't they talk some moreabout it?
Well, no, it makes me worsejust talking to you right now
about this.
It's just really hard for me tothink about it.
I sit in the middle.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
But I'd almost rather not.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
So is that part of the reason you wrote the book so
that you could put it out anddeal with it without having to
talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
No, it wasn't like that.
It wasn't like that.
I did go to a psychologist forcounseling.
It was a joke and I knew itwould be.
I didn't know it would be forcounseling.
It was a joke and I knew itwould be.
I didn't know what it would be,but I thought I'd give it a try
, but anyway, he's alwayswriting that book.
I told him I started writing abook.
He's like oh yeah it's going tobe great.
Okay, if you're not familiarwith that term, it look it up.

(01:06:09):
You know, you kind of spillyour guts out and everything
will be okay.
Well, it doesn't happen, it'sjust not.
I'm sorry.
So I had to relive all thisstuff.
Even if I hadn't done that, itreally didn't.

(01:06:29):
It wasn't cathartic, it reallydidn't help me.
In fact, it made me worse.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
So I don't know what would have helped Besides the
medication that is reallyhelpful.
There is medication for thisdisease.
Okay, there is medication,trust me, but it will never go
away.
You're always going to have it.
You just have to deal with it.
Take medication, try not todrink.

(01:07:00):
I was smoking, those were mycrutches.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
That's how I dealt with it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
I smoked cigarettes and try not to talk about it, so
is retiring, you know, and trynot to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
So is retiring.
You know retiring's beendifficult for me in some ways.
I mean, I started this podcast.
I still go out and teach incorrectional centers and jails,
so I'm still out there as partof it.
But the day-to-day you knowwhere you've got that buddy that
you talked to the crew, thatyou worked with, the shift that

(01:07:38):
you trusted.
You know that evaporates whenyou retire.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
That's kind of tough.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Did you experience that?

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Yeah, well, yeah.
And to be honest with you, for10 years after I retired, I
didn't want to see anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
I didn't want anybody .

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
I didn't want anybody .
I immersed myself in a littlefarm.
I did woodworking and I kind ofwent to myself.
I didn't go to parties, Ididn't do that much social.
I was out on the Viagra farmout in the rural area and that's

(01:08:21):
what I'm like.
I enjoyed on fire and sittingthere with my wife and that
guy's not doing fishing.
I was kind of active.
This is what I really wanted todo the last.
What I want to do, the lastthing I want to do, is have my
old buddies come around and ustalk about old times.

(01:08:42):
That's not helpful to me.
It doesn't help me.
I don't want to do it, like Sam, my number 10.
I'll be honest with you.
I had two of my real closefriends commit suicide after
they retired Think about thatAfter they retired.
One of them was a lieutenant.
One of them is in my book.

(01:09:03):
I didn't talk about their deathbut they were players in some
of these big events and afterthey retire that killed them,
killed himself with a gun.
Next door neighbor who was acrack law officer.
After I retired he killedhimself with his Joe crack law

(01:09:23):
officer.
Now why did I almost do it?
I'm telling you, it's thatconstant exposure, stress and
trauma.
That's what it does and itrelates over time and it can
happen.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
You're not weak, right?
No, no, absolutely not.
Do you see?
And you were in correctionsbefore I was.
But when I was first incorrections early 90s, I didn't
see staff suicides as much wehad.
It was a huge thing when onehappened.
It's almost at an epidemiclevel now.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
I mean, oh, you get on LinkedIn or something it's.
You know, every month, everyweek, you're going to see where
another officer you know, wepost our badges with our little
black stripe in memory of um.
But what I'm?
I'm just so hurt by the factthat so many people are are

(01:10:25):
taking that as a way out andthat that's the only way out.
And I don't know if it'sbecause our profession isn't
looked at the way it was beforeor if it's a change in society,
which society's changed leapsand bounds in the last 40 years,
but I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
It's a quiet time and hopefully where my book will
help, Because I'm about to be anon-vet.
Okay, those guys went to war.
It's a time when all theirfriends were protesting the war,
all the colleges.
That was a time period in the60s and early 70s when they were

(01:11:08):
terrible.
Back after it's're there for 16, 18 months.
If they got drafted, that'sabout all.
It amounted to about a year,year and a half.
They step right into combat andwhen they're done, after a year
, year and a half, they're on aplane heading home and they tell

(01:11:33):
them before they board theplane get out of your uniform.
You don't want to go throughnetwork in your uniform because
they'd get spit on, they'd becalled baby killers and all that
kind of crap.
Right, that's what they had tocome up to.
Uh, they would welcome youcrowd.

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):
They weren't heroes, they weren't they weren't heroes
, they weren't treated likeheroes.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
They weren't treated.
Yeah, okay now that way.
That's different than what wedid in corrections, at least
where it's different, but in away, christ loves us Going to
this combative situation, if youwill.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
it's not the same, I don't want to make a comparison.
And somebody say, well, that'snot the way combat is.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
I know that.
But the point is you go into adramatic event lots of it
violence and lots of it.
Now, especially as acorrectional officer.
Now, especially as acorrectional officer, I'm not
for that your bravery, yourconduct.

(01:12:41):
it run into a fight unarmed Forexample we're stabbing and we
did that all the time.
You're not appreciated.
It's actually your second classto be a prison guard.
You have not appreciated.
It's actually your second classto be a prison guard.
You have no appreciation, youhave no respect and it's a
problem.

(01:13:01):
It troubled me, but that's thepath I chose, so I helped with
it, even if I don't get respect,I know what I did.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
You know what you?

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
say a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
There's studies out there and they've been around
for years, back in the 70s thattalk about certain jobs are
considered dirty work, andcorrections is one of them.
That's listed in there.
And it's not that we personallyare dirty, but we're surrounded
by low morals.
Personally are dirty, but we'resurrounded by low morals.

(01:13:35):
We're surrounded by a jobthat's not looked well upon.
We're surrounded by people whoare shunned from society and
that's what we want to take careof.
And they say that part of thatdirty work you know comes off on
the people that have to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
It does.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Yeah, so I want to ask one more question go ahead.
One more question, because youknow, when I picked up your book
there's a word on the frontpage that are on the front cover
that you don't see a whole lotassociated with corrections and
you do with law enforcement, youdo with military, but you said

(01:14:11):
duty, sacrifice, sacrifice andleadership.
Tell me why you put sacrificeon there?

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Because, yeah, just tell me your thoughts on that,
because I find that very telling.
Well, I think you sacrifice alot just by entering into this
profession.
Most of us, or at least in mycase and most people I know got
into it because at the time, inmy case, it was the only job I

(01:14:42):
could find it.
I kind of accidentally got intoit and I was long enough to
find another job.
Most of us.
I mean I'll say that it's justa whole job of finding something
better, something else.
But it's the thing when I slambehind me and when I went in on

(01:15:03):
my first use of force and Ihadn't been there long, when I
had my first use of force and Ithought, you know, this is real
shit here.
This is real life, this isdrama.
I mean, I didn't like this.
I don't like to use force but Ilike the challenge of going in
there and dealing with all thatstuff Very challenging.

(01:15:25):
It's exciting in a way.
You want to try to prevent itif you can, but when it happens
and you run it, you know there'sa sense of accomplishment when
you do that, when you run in andbring up a fight or maybe one's
got a knot and you don't haveanything except just you know

(01:15:49):
your own set being promoted, butthat's an accomplishment and
that's something you're on apersonal set being come out of
it, but that's an accomplishmentand that's something that cops
need right or not, and we'redealing with the people that
they put in prison.
So I mean, that's a sacrifice tome being able to put yourself

(01:16:15):
in arms way, day after day afterday, knowing that you might not
survive.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
Why does the public look at what a law enforcement
officer or military or someother public servant?
Why do they look at that as asacrifice?
But you don't see that termused towards us, even though we
sacrifice a ton to be a publicservant.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
Probably more so.
Yeah, I don't know if I cananswer that, but here's what I
do.
Know it's very little.

Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
It's something you've ever done.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
You don't want to get shot.
It's very you know when theyare shot, a suspect or die, all
that and you see it on TV.
Whatever.
Sure, there's a lot of gloryfor being a police officer.
Yeah, bravery, it's a glorious,honorable profession and so
forth.
Sure, and it's corrections.
Ever mentioned, never, never.
And I's corrections evermentioned, never.

(01:17:14):
Never.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
And I'll bet money.
I'll bet money.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
Yeah, like all the prison guards.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Yeah, but I'll bet money.
There are lives that you savedduring your career.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
Certainly.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
That would be front page.
If it was any other profession,I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
Rescued.
I rescued a hostage.
That's in the very first yeah.
I saved his life.
Sure, I think I did yeah youdid?
This inmate had an officerhostage and I was the hostage
negotiator.
Did I save his life?
Yeah, yeah.
Another time in Cleveland,hawaii, when I was sporting.
Another time in Cleveland whenI was sporting we had a house

(01:17:59):
surrounded and we were about tocapture him but he stepped out
of the house.
We had it surrounded with hisgirlfriend and headlock and a
knife at her throat.
I was five feet away so I gotkilled.
I finally convinced him.
I was five feet away so I'm notgoing to kill him, right.
But I finally convinced him.
I kept pointing at him and Iwas backing up as I was doing

(01:18:20):
this.
I said if you let her go or I'mgoing to, I'm going to die your
head off, right?
I won't say what I said, but itwas pretty ugly.
I had to say it about threetimes.
He finally did.
He shoved dirt to the side andcame after me.
Now did I save a lot, was it?

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
front page news.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
Well, we captured him , we caught him on the ground.
I didn't have to shoot him.
He had to read books to seewhat really happened.
We caught him on the ground.
I didn't have shooting uh, youhave to read books to see what
really happened but anyway, we'dgot him on the ground, um,
putting him in one of our cars,putting him back in the prison.
So we didn't call the police,we did it all ourselves, you

(01:19:04):
know uh and it's in a badneighborhood in Cleveland.
So, uh, uh, well anyway.
So, yeah, well anyway.
So yeah, call it hostage risk.
Well, I mean, she was hostagethere for a moment anyway, and I
was ready to get over her, andI think she just got in a

(01:19:24):
prisoner's cell.
Nevertheless, those are allincidental things, but inside
the prison we went into a fightand broke it up.
We'd not done that.
The fight would have escalatedto what I've got now.
I mean almost in every case.

(01:19:44):
So how many times do we do that?
I can't even count.
I don't even know how manyfights we broke up.
I don't see what happens.
I'm going to get that.
It don't even know how manyfights we broke up.
I don't see what happens.
We got, I'm going to getsomebody to die for a reason or
somebody throw you an eye forwhatever.
We didn't see a lot of murders,but we'd still run through the

(01:20:06):
murder as quick as we could getthere, try to save the inmates'
lives, and a lot of times wedidn't get there in time.

Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
That's just the way our life.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
That's what we do, but the Father doesn't know that
.
Maybe this book you know thebook is catching on, it's
gaining traction.
It's gotten pretty high ratingson Amazon.
I think it does shine a light.
It makes people behind thescenes what we do, what happens

(01:20:41):
every day?
Well, mostly the massacres, butit happens in the neighborhood.
They fight, they stabbing, theyescape, murder, half-murder.
They just lost an officer atRoss Crutchill Institutional and
lost his kill just last week.

(01:21:02):
That was me.
There's a danger.
It reminds you when there's anofficer or a staff kill that
reminds that should be a harshreminder.
It was for me.
Then you know when you walk inthat gate you better.

(01:21:23):
If you look slow, you're sadlymistaken Because it has to get
on.
That could be me.
So what does that tell you?
You need to be aware of yoursurroundings, you need to work
as a team, you need to look outfor your fellow officer.
There's a lot on what yourealize that you work in a place

(01:21:48):
of danger and that next bodylaying there they may be my
friend, but it's going to happentime and time again and that
next body lander, they must have.
It's going to happen.
Not at all, thank goodness, toomuch Well.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
Warden, I can't thank you enough for being on here
Everybody you know.
Let me get this over to you,the book Guard.
I'm going to tell you I haveread as many correctional books
as anybody you know.
You listen to my podcast.
You know the people I'veinterviewed.
This is one of the best bookswritten about prison.

(01:22:28):
I applaud your honesty that youhad in there all the way from
the way things were, the waythey changed, to the way they
affected you at the end.
Your honesty was the biggestpart of that book and I highly
recommend it.
I will absolutely put it in theshow notes here.
So if anybody wants to clickbelow in the show notes, it'll

(01:22:51):
take you directly to his book sothat you can order it.
I'm also going to put down someinformation in there about, of
course, the suicide hotline andsome other links that if you're
having trouble, if you'rethinking that you want to reach
out and get some help, someplaces that you can do that.
So I'm going to put that in theshow notes also yeah, on the

(01:23:13):
right medications, nothing else.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
Go see your doctor.
Absolutely, ptsd can be treated.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
It can be treated with medication.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Yeah, there might be a little therapy use and talk
about it in the center.
But go talk to your chaplain orwhatever.
But get on the medication.
It's got to help you.

Speaker 1 (01:23:33):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
That's what I had to do.

Speaker 1 (01:23:35):
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on here.
Thank you so much for yourhonesty and thank you so much
for your service.
I mean, good Lord, you spenthow long total?
I don't think we got there.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
I don't know, Thirty I guess Thirty-something yeah.
I lived.
I mean, I don't know, I bouncedaround, I spread my hat over
five decades.
Okay, I've been involved incorrections for five decades,
but I spread it out.
Okay, I took a five-yearvacation, or six-year vacation.
Once it came back, the samedamn job I left.

Speaker 1 (01:24:08):
Yeah, a lot of us do that yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
Okay, thank you for having me Appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
Anytime.

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
Thank you to all the correctional officers that are
going to watch this.
Keep your head up and becareful and don't underestimate
PTSD.
Get all the medication It'llhelp.
If you think you'reexperiencing it, it'll help you.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
Perfect.
Have a good day, Warden.
Thank you.

All Episodes

97: Guard: Duty, Sacrifice, and Leadership - Interview w/Phillip W Parker

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}97: Guard: Duty, Sacrifice, and Leadership - Interview w/Phillip W Parker