99: Honoring a Legacy in Corrections - Interview w/Conor Fredericks - The Prison Officer Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:23):
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(00:44):
To learn more about Pepperball,go to wwwpepperballcom or click
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In this show's informationguide, pepperball is the safer
option first.
Well, hello and welcome back tothe Prison Officer Podcast.
My name is Mike Cantrell andtoday I have a guest, connor
Fredericks.
He is a CERT Commander with theSouth Carolina Department of

(01:05):
Corrections.
Connor is a Marine Corps SpecialOperations veteran with 10
years of combined military andlaw enforcement experience In
the military.
He completed two deployments.
One is a member of a MarineSpecial Operations team where he
served as a Joint TerrorismTask Force with the 75th Ranger
Regiment in Afghanistan.
He was also a police officer.

(01:26):
He received a Medal of Valor in2022 for rescuing approximately
100 people from a structurefire at an apartment complex.
Additionally, he's trained incriminal interdiction, proactive
patrol tactics, advancedinterview, interrogation, and is
experienced in small unittactics, leadership and
intelligence gathering.
So I'm really looking forwardto talking to Connor today and

(01:47):
learning a little bit about him.
First, I want to say thank youfor your service Appreciate it.
I appreciate it.
I know the country appreciatesit.
Yes, sir, so we haven't metbefore.
This is wonderful.
I interviewed your father backin Episode 56, arthur Frederick.
So I think one of the things Ialways start at the beginning

(02:08):
you know how'd you grow up?
But tell me about how you grewup, because you were there
around corrections, my kids.
We've talked about this.
It's not necessarily theeasiest thing to do, but the
difference is you kind offollowed his footsteps.
So I'm interested Tell me aboutgrowing up with a correctional
officer.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, so I've kind of lived all over the country.
My father was working for theFederal Bureau of Prisons, so I
mean, every time he took apromotion we found ourselves
moving to a new state.
For the most part.
So I've really been north tosouth, east to west, all over
the country, and at one point weeven moved all the way from
California over to Charleston,south Carolina.
And when we were living inMassachusetts at the time my

(02:50):
father was working at an FCI upthere and I was playing a pretty
high level of hockey and myhockey skill set didn't exactly
match my academic skill set andso I kind of had to make a
decision on whether or not Iwanted to try and go to college
or, you know, whether I wantedto join the military, really
what I wanted my life to kind oflook like once I turned 18.

(03:10):
Really, I didn't even have towait till 18.
I had, you know, parentalconsent at 17 to join the
military.
So I joined the Marine Corps at17 years old, initially, started
out as an intelligencespecialist by trade, and I spent
about two and a half years withmy first unit.
I ended up deploying once on aspecial purpose MAGTF over to

(03:31):
Sicily in Africa where we weresupporting various logistical
missions going on over there.
And then, thankfully, I hadsome really really strong
non-commissioned officers andleadership above me at the time
because I was a junior Marineand that kind of helped shape
and, you know, really launchedthe trajectory of my career when

(03:51):
I got back, which is when I wasassessed and selected for
Marine Special OperationsCommand and then I went through
that whole selection processpretty lengthy and then was
assigned down to the team leveland then I ended up completing a
deployment to Afghanistan withthat team, like you mentioned
previously, and then, once I gotback from Afghanistan, I kind

(04:13):
of juggled my options a littlebit.
The Marine Corps is pretty.
I wouldn't trade my experiencefor the world.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
I absolutely love it and I even thought about going
after it.
What's an intelligencespecialist?
For those of us that don't knowwhat?
What does that job entail?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Um, it can.
It can entail a number ofdifferent things.
Um, it can, you know, they kindof, they kind of pitch it to
you when you're in therecruiting office is like you're
going to go in and be JamesBond.
I think it was a little bitdifferent than that A lot of you
know some office work, somepaperwork and then managing a
couple of secured facilities andthings like that.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
So interrogations, interviews kind of detective
work.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
It's a little bit of that.
I would say.
Okay, you know, as anintelligence specialist it was
more of like an analytical job,a lot of intelligence analysis,
so kind of doing risk-basedassessments and things like that
, and just conducting variousintelligence-related analyses on
specific geographical locations.
So when I was supporting thatmission in Africa, a lot of it

(05:15):
was looking at the threats inthat region and what could
potentially pose a threat to ourforces that were over there,
forces that were over there Um.
And then it kind of quicklychanged once I joined the
special operations side of thehouse and, um, I was basically
trained in multiple different umaspects of intelligence.
Um, and I can't really get intoyou know exactly what all of
that was, um, but, uh, you know,thankfully I had the.

(05:38):
I had a lot of really reallystrong leaders that kind of
helped me get to that point.
Um, you know, and they kind ofexplained to me that you know
the world is kind of your oyster.
You know, as a junior Marine,you know when you're in the
Marine Corps you can really kindof map out and plan out how
your career wants to go.
It's really all up to you andyou know what your motivation
level is, and so, you know, Igot back stateside after my
first deployment and reallystarted working on, like, my

(05:58):
physical fitness, obviously,because the selection process
for special operations is pretty, you know, physically intensive
as well as, you know, mentallydemanding as well.
So I really really kind of, youknow, try to drill down all of
those aspects so I could go intoselection with a clear head and

(06:20):
, you know, feel like I couldreally compete with those around
me, because you're not onlybeing, you know, assessed by the
, you know, the Marines that areat the command, you're being
assessed by your peers as well,and they do, you know, you do
like peer evals throughout theentire process and everything
like that.
So, you know there's a term ofbeing peered out, which is
basically, you know, if yourpeers don't think that you're
capable of being on the teams orbeing in that type of
environment, you know you can beremoved from training, just
from that, let alone, you knowyour actual physical and mental
ability.
So, um, sure, sure, I got backfrom Afghanistan after my

(06:44):
deployment in 2019 and Iultimately made the decision to
get out, you know, and it was,it was kind of a tough decision
for me because I really, really,really enjoyed what I was doing
at the time.
But I kind of wanted to find abalance between, you know,
finding something that I reallyenjoy with also being closer to
home.
I lost a lot of time at homewhile I was in.
I spent 15 months out of myfive years overseas.

(07:06):
So you combine that withdifferent training, evolutions
and holidays that you miss outon, it kind of catches up to you
.
And I think my body was alsoanother factor in that.
And I think when you talk aboutthe amount of physical
preparation that it takes for aspecial operations deployment,
let alone when you're actuallyover there, you know, I kind of

(07:26):
tried to factor in like can Ireally do this for 20 years?
Can I even do this for anotherfive, you know?
And of course, I got out andended up choosing law
enforcement, so, which I didn'trealize, you know, at the time,
was going to be just asphysically demanding, if not
more.
So I became police officershortly after I got out, I think
it was right around November.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
So what was it?
What was it that drew you tolaw enforcement?
Was it what you'd seen growingup, or just what you knew, or
something specific.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Honestly, it had nothing to do with, um, my
father's career choice.
Um, I really didn't know awhole lot about corrections or
about the profession of of lawenforcement.
Um, you know, growing up Iwouldn't say that my dad kind of
hid, you know things from us,but there were certain aspects
of the jobs that he wouldn'ttalk about and I think that
that's knowing what I know now.
I think that that's prettypertinent when you, you know,
have children and everythinglike that.

(08:15):
You know you don't want toexpose them to a certain level
of, you know, violence orwhatever it may be.
So I think he did his best totry and do that.
But I think for me, like, whatdrew me to law enforcement was
just the aspect of service.
I really enjoy service, publicservice, and you know kind of
the good versus evil mindset,you know what I mean.
I think that I really found apassion for that when I was in

(08:38):
the military especially.
You know I wasn't, you know Iwas a little kid when 9-11
happened, so I don't really havethe fondest memory of the day
and everything like that.
Um, but you know, you see itand you learn about it growing
up and I think it was kind of aneasy decision for me to you
know kind of want to be a partof, you know our mission.
To you know, go get the peoplethat are responsible, um, and
and even for attacks thatoccurred since 9-11.

(09:00):
So you know, just like thatgood versus evil mindset and
just service is really kind ofwhat drew me to the profession.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
How'd you find the transition from coming out of
that much time in the militaryto coming into law enforcement?
Did it feel comfortable, or wasit a real change for you?

Speaker 2 (09:16):
It was a real change, I think.
You know it was amazing to meto see the parallels between
military service and lawenforcement and I think there's,
you know, a lot that can bedrawn from each.
And you know I think peoplelook at law enforcement as kind
of a paramilitary you knoworganization or you know
paramilitary style profession,and I think it can be, depending

(09:36):
on you know, what mindset thatyou, you know, kind of apply to
your work.
And you know we'll go in deptha little bit about that later
when we talk about the actualincident.
But I think it was a relativelysmooth transition, just with
some kind of tweaks on how to dothe actual job of a police
officer to start and thenobviously kind of transitioning

(09:57):
into corrections shortlythereafter.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, so when you get to corrections, I know, tell me
about this before we moveforward this Medal of Valor.
You got to tell me that story,that you got while you were a
police officer.
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
So I served four years as a police officer, every
single minute.
Pretty much of my time as a copwas on night shift, which I
really enjoyed.
My time as a cop was on nightshift, which I really enjoyed.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
And.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
I didn't really realize that I would enjoy it at
the time.
So I kind of you know, when youstart out as a rookie you don't
really have a whole lot of sayas to what your shift is going
to be, whether it's going to beday shift or night shift.
I think I would say for themajority of agencies that I
worked at, you know the youngerguys that don't really
necessarily have families or anyof those like crazy obligations
yet usually get tailored moretowards the night shift crowd.

(10:45):
And so I started in.
I was working 6 pm to 6 am so Ihad to completely switch my
sleep schedule around andeverything like that, which
wasn't too much of a challenge.
I mean, obviously, once youkind of live that military life
for a little while and yoursleep just gets flipped upside
down.
It wasn't the biggesttransition to that, but I really

(11:05):
really, really enjoyed the work.
And I think one of the thingsthat most people don't realize
about law enforcement,especially when we're talking
about police officers, is youhave no idea what goes on at the
hours of midnight to six in themorning in your own community.
Most people are asleep in theirbed thinking about when they're
going to get up for work in themorning and don't realize, you
know, the people that are outthere preying on society at
night and acts of violence.

(11:27):
So, um, I really got kind ofthrown into the wolves in that
regard.
You know, I lived in in acommunity that's kind of just a
sleepy old town in SouthCarolina and, uh, you know, most
people think it's Mayberrywhenever they're, you know, up
and walking around during theday and have no idea you know no
idea the things that go on atnight.
So, um, I worked for, uh, threeseparate agencies.

(11:48):
I was a canine handler at two ofthem and, uh, the third agency,
the last agency that I workedat before I'd started in
corrections, uh, was up inSomerville, um, and I absolutely
loved it.
I think it had a little bit ofeverything, um, you know, within
the town.
You know it's kind of a townbut it's also kind of a city
based on population.
I mean, the population ispretty, pretty substantial and
the amount of like throughtraffic and everything.

(12:08):
The town kind of gave you alittle bit of everything in
terms of crime.
And I was just, it was likethree in the morning, I think it
was like the end of September,and I had I had only been with
the agency maybe like threeweeks.
You know, I already hadprobably three years of tenure
at this point as a cop.
So you know, switching agenciesisn't really you know anything

(12:29):
at that point.
But, uh, I'd only been with aspecific agency for like maybe a
week or two and, uh, you knowwe got a call like three in the
morning that there was a, astructure fire, and sometimes,
you know, as a cop, you'll get astructure fire and it's like,
okay, maybe someone's grillcaught on fire or know, maybe
it's just a small fire that'sgot a little bit out of control
in the backyard.
So I was on, I was with myfield training officer at the at

(12:52):
that time because, you know,once you start with a new agency
, they kind of put you with afield training officer, so you
kind of get the layout of thetown and get the layout of
whatever you know reportingsystem and things like that that
they use, sure.
So I was driving and he was inthe passenger seat and, uh, I
actually drove past the buildingthat was on fire.
I didn't, I didn't see it forsome reason.

(13:16):
I don't know if I got tunnelvision or what it was, um, but
we had turned, we had turnedback around and we pulled into
the apartment complex and anentire building was fully
engulfed in flames.
Um, so you know it's funnybecause I say there's, you know,
such a correlation betweenmilitary and law enforcement
experience.
But you know, one of the thingsthey teach in the military is
kind of taking a combat pause,you know, whenever you're in a
stressful situation, and kind ofjust take a pause real quick,

(13:37):
you know, evaluate your, youknow the situation as it is, and
kind of come up with a you knowformulate a plan in your mind
as a plan of action, what you'regoing to do.
That's exactly what I did.
I mean, we both got out of thecar and we just kind of paused
there for a minute.
And my field training officerhe's a former Marine as well, so
I think that was kind of aunique connection that we both
had showing up for that call.
But we just we took a breath,we looked at it for what it was

(13:59):
and it was.
It was absolutely wild to seein person.
I've never seen a fire that bigin my life.
And then we just kind of went towork.
We started pulling people outoff of balconies.
People were jumping fromwindows and we were catching
them as they were jumping fromwindows and we were breaking
windows with our batons tryingto enter and the amount of smoke
was unbelievable.
I think two or three of theguys on my shift ended up having

(14:22):
to go to the hospitalimmediately after for smoke
inhalation.
Um, and we just we did whateverwe could to evacuate and I
think one of the um aggravatingcircumstances at that particular
call was that night it wassuper windy.
Um, it had to.
It had to have been 15, 20 milean hour, you know gusts of wind
, and so it was just carryingembers and carrying the fire to
other buildings.

(14:42):
So I think by the time all wassaid and done, there was two or
three buildings that were almostfully engulfed, and so you know
it's a total loss for peoplethat are living there.
So in that moment you knowyou're trying to obviously save
their life and rescue them, butyou're also trying to provide a
little bit of comfort, you know,to people who are literally
losing everything right beforetheir eyes and they can't really
do anything about it, so youknow we stayed there until the

(15:05):
Red Cross got there and the RedCross ended up showing up and,
you know, handing out blanketsand stuff like that, and then we
kind of let the fire departmentdo their work and put it out,
and I mean it took several,several hours to put it out.
But, yeah, ultimately, me and acouple of my guys, we were
awarded the Medal of Valor forour efforts that night.
It was a super cool experienceto kind of go through that with

(15:26):
all the guys on your shift.
You know, I think you, you know, when you're out there in a
fast paced environment like thaton the street, you know you
don't really get to kind of slowdown and appreciate the guys
that are to your left and toyour right, you know.
So I think it was cool to seeand I really can't speak any
higher of the guys I was with onthat night and really a lot of
the men and women that I'veserved with throughout my law

(15:47):
enforcement career.
I think you know I didn'treally know what to expect,
going into a career like that,of the people that I was going
to be surrounded with, but I'vereally met some like lifelong
friends and some really reallygood friends and I think when
you talk about you know theaspects of the job and when it
becomes, you know, like a lifeor death, you know situation at
a moment's notice.
Um, you really, you know, finda good appreciation for those

(16:08):
around you that are, that arethere in those moments with you.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Sure, yeah, I've.
I've compared it in on this umpodcast.
You know the bonding experiencethat happens in corrections in
law enforcement, in situationslike that has to be the same
kind of bonding experience thathappens in combat you know
because yeah, it's.
It's your life in their handsand their, their life in your
hands did you have?

(16:31):
Any loss of life at all or inthe fire.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, we did, we had.
We had two that ended up thatweren't able to make it.
I think they were in like themost heavily affected area and,
uh, you know the they kind ofended up getting trapped inside
and ended up, you know, dying ofsmoke inhalation and I think
that that was kind of what hitthe shift the hardest, you know,
and I had some buddies thatwere pretty torn up about it and
I think it's just, you know,it's one of those things where

(16:57):
you, when you're there topreserve life, and life ends up
getting lost anyways.
You know you can count thehundred plus people that you
saved as a win, but you still,in the back of your mind, are
kind of like, you know, thinkingthat there's a little bit of a
loss there, sure, and you knowyou try your best to get
everyone out and you know, ifyou can't, then that's, you know
, unfortunately that's thenature of the job.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Right, right, wow.
What a great story.
Story.
I mean, you lived it.
But so tell me about so.
Next you went into corrections,yeah, and you went into South
Carolina Yep, south CarolinaDepartment of Corrections.
Tell me a little bit aboutSouth Carolina Department of
Corrections.
How big is that?

(17:38):
How many institutions?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
I believe it's 21 institutions and it's about, I
want to say, 15 or 16,000inmates, population wise, and
then I think there's aboutprobably three to 4,000 staff
that work across the state.
I I initially had no idea thatI was going to be in corrections

(18:01):
.
I had no honestly after being apolice officer and I and I just
absolutely adored it.
I loved the job so much.
I had no honestly after being apolice officer and I just
absolutely adored it.
I loved the job so much I neverthought that I would really
cross that path.
Unfortunately, I had a familymember of mine get really sick
with cancer and while I wasworking night shift and I was

(18:21):
kind of weighing my my optionswith that, because, you know,
when you're on night shift it'svery tough to, you know, wake up
in the middle of the day andkind of be active and be present
.
You know what I mean and Ireally wanted to be there for my
family at that time.
You know it was just a verytough time for my family as a
whole.
So my dad, you know, hadreached out and he said hey, you

(18:42):
know, I really think you'd likethis job with, uh, you know,
the corrections department anduh, it was a correctional
emergency response teamcommander position and, um, he's
like I think this is right upyour alley, I mean based on you
know your military service andyour, your background in law
enforcement already.
Um, he's like I think thiswould be this would be right up
your alley.
And so, um it was.
It was a lieutenant's position,with lieutenant's pay that was

(19:03):
about a $20,000 increase fromwhat I was making on the street,
which for me, it was neverreally about the money anyways.
Um, but it was certainly niceto have that, that much of a
bump.
Um and, you know, during a timewhere my family was kind of
struggling, um, I had juststarted, uh, dating my now wife
at the time too, um and uh, soit provided a lot more stability

(19:28):
in my home and family life.
Um, you know, because even shewas, you know, we were together
when, uh, you know, probably thelast like five, six months of
me being a police officer onnight shift and it was hard for
her to kind of adjust to myschedule.
You know, because she's wakingup in the middle of the day and,
um, you know, I'm getting homeat 6 AM and going right to bed.
Um, so I, I'm getting home at 6am and going right to bed.
So I took it, I took the job, Iwent and interviewed and I

(19:49):
think I did pretty well in myinterview.
I was, you know, I don't thinkthere was many other 26 year old
lieutenants at the time when Ijoined the agency, especially in
the position that I was beinghired for.
But you know, I think you knowthe agency kind of took a look
at my military background andyou know my background as a
police officer too, and theythought it was a good fit as
well.
So I took the job and I think alot of what helped was, you

(20:18):
know, having a, you know, 33year plus tenured correctional
professional in my household.
So I can't lie, I was scared todeath to walk into a prison?

Speaker 1 (20:23):
That's kind of my question what were some of the
preconceived notions that youhad that either evaporated or
you went wow, that's not the wayit is.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
I think the inherent danger scared me a little bit,
which for whatever reason, Idon't know why, because frankly
it was no more dangerous thanwhat I was dealing with on the
street at the time.
But I think it was theconfinement aspect of it, and
once those sliding doors closebehind you, that's it, you're in

(20:53):
there.
You know what I mean and thatcan do a lot for people, that
can really change theirperspective on it.
And that can be it.
Those doors might close behindyou and you're like, nope, can't
do it, can't do the job.
You know, and I had no idea.
You know what I was really kindof walking into.
And then, you know, I went andtoured the facility that I was

(21:13):
actually going to be working at,and I think that was actually
even before I applied.
I went and toured the facilityand my father went with me.
You know, just kind of kind ofshow me around and show me what
the environment was like.
And once I got in there andrealized that you know, these
guys that are, you know,incarcerated here are no
different than the guys that I'mdealing with out on the street
right now, I was kind of like,oh well, I mean this isn't, this

(21:35):
isn't so bad.
I mean, you know, I think thedifference is when you're a
police officer and you'redealing with a, you know,
noncompliant suspect that youjust arrested, and you're
dealing with a noncompliantsuspect that you just arrested,
well, you've only got to getthem to the county jail and
they're out of your hands.
You go back to the station andtype in reports with your
buddies, versus dealing withthem for an entire eight-hour
shift when you're actuallyinside of a correctional
facility.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, I've got a friend of mine that's a police
officer and he always tells mehe's fascinated with prisons and
he says man, I don't know howyou walk in there.
I said man, I don't know howyou walk up on a car and not
know whether it's a good guy ora bad guy.
I know what I'm dealing withyou don't.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
So, it's just what you're used to, and it's weird
because you know, like Of allthe people that I've encountered
on both sides of the wall, thepeople that work in the
correction facility don'tnecessarily want to go out and
be police officers.
None of the police officers thatI work with want to go in and
work in a prison.
Absolutely, they would say thesame thing to me Once I got out

(22:32):
of policing.
They were like I don't know howyou do it.
I'm like, listen, man, it's notthat much different than what
you're dealing with.
But I can honestly tell youthat out of probably 90% of the
police officers I work with, Idon't I don't think they would
set foot in a correctionalfacility.
Um, I just, I just don't, um,and it's it's weird to say that,
um, now that I've seen bothsides of it, um, but I think

(22:55):
some people one.
I think they're just meant forpolice work versus corrections.
And I think that you know youhave to have a certain level of
culture about you.
You know you got to be able to,you know, interact with certain
groups of people that youotherwise might not interact
with on a daily basis if you'regoing to walk in a correctional

(23:16):
facility.
And so I think having thatbackground as a police officer
and having you know the militarybackground where I've gone and
experienced so many differentyou know cultures and dealt with
different groups of people, itreally helped me kind of going
into that environment and beingable to relate with people off
the bat, you know, and kind ofbuild rapport, you know and
function in that environment.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right.
So tell me about this job.
How many teams, how manymembers?
I mean?
What did you do?
They brought you in just to bea CERT commander at one
institution, or is that over abunch?

Speaker 2 (23:44):
So there's several teams.
They only exist at maximumsecurity institutions.
I think that's just due to thenature of the population that
you deal with within thoserespective institutions and I
think that every single one thathas a team needs a team.
They need that team to existthere to in order to help, you
know, quell violence and, andyou know, neutralize

(24:04):
disturbances that are occurring.
Um, but they had, uh, the teamthat I was on, that I joined, I
think at the time, had uh fourpeople.
I was going to be the fifth.
So each team is outfitted withfive, um, certain commanders.
It's the same job title for foreveryone across the board, and
there's obviously a team leader.
And then you know there's, youknow there's specific duties

(24:26):
within the team that you fill.
You know whether it be the lesslethal munitions operator, or
you know whether you're incharge of equipment or whether
you're in charge of tactics andeverything like that.
Okay, so everyone has kind oftheir own role that they fill,
but at the same time, you'rekind of like a Swiss army knife
within the institution.
You should be able to, you know,fulfill the duties of any
regular line staff member,should you be needed or if one

(24:49):
of your teammates is not at theinstitution that day, or whether
they're off or you know they'respending time with family, you
should be able to, you know,fulfill their duties as well,
and I found that to be a verysimilar environment to you know,
the one that I operated in whenI was with the teams in the
Marine Corps.
You know, when you're inspecial operations, it's no
different.
You're expected to function ata very high level and you're

(25:10):
expected to pick up the slackfrom someone else if they're not
there, if they're not able toperform their duties to, you
know, the best of theirabilities.
So, you know, started out,started on the team that I was
working at.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
And.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
I really really really enjoyed what I was doing.
And then I was working at onemaximum security facility and
then there was another maximumsecurity facility a couple hours
away.
That was kind of struggling atthe time and they were kind of
struggling building their teamup.
They never really had a fullystaffed team.
I think the max that they mayhave ever had was four um, which

(25:42):
obviously the full staffing isfive um.
When I got there I think weonly had three um and I think we
only ever got up to four um andthen by the time you know the
incident happened to me, we wereback down to three uh when I
left, uh, the institution thatday.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
So um, because why do you?
Why do you think?
Cause I find that interesting,the um that you were having
trouble filling the team slots.
Is that that demanding of a jobthat not everybody wanted it?
Was it the danger of thatinstitution?
Why do you?

Speaker 2 (26:15):
think I think it's a combination of things really.
I think, um, I think the dangersof the job are a little bit
elevated in a position like that.
You know, I think, when yoursole purpose every day is to go
in and quell inmate violence,you know you're going to deter a
lot of people right off the batwith something like that,
because you know there's a lotof officers.

(26:36):
You know they want to go in andavoid that confrontation at all
costs, and rightfully sothey're outnumbered.
You know about 99% go in andavoid that confrontation at all
costs, and rightfully so they'reoutnumbered.
You know about 99% of the time.
So when you're that 1% of the1% that's supposed to go in and
confront that violence, you knowhead on, so to speak, most of
the time I think it can kind ofbe a deterrent.

(26:57):
But I think it's also one ofthose unique jobs where a lot of
the people you know that arewithin the agency lack the skill
set or the necessary experiencefor that job.
So it's kind of hard to getapplicants in the door Like I
know that that.
I don't know if if they'restill doing it now or whether
they were doing at the time, butI think you had to have at
least a certain amount of lawenforcement experience or prior

(27:20):
military service to even applyfor the position, and I think
that that's just kind of giventhe job itself and when you talk
about you know small teamtactics and utilizing less
lethal weapons and everythinglike that like you've got to be
really proficient in what you do, and so it was just kind of a
difficult applicant pool forthem to kind of figure out, and

(27:40):
I don't think the team that Iwas on is filled yet either,
even to this point right now.
So they're still struggling andI think that you just have to
target the right applicant pooland I think you could probably
outfit all those teamseffectively.
I just don't know that that'swhat they're getting to apply
for those positions just yet.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Interesting.
So what's a day like?
I mean from my experience atthe institutions I've worked,
are you doing use of forces?
Are you going in and sell, okay, and are you responding to
stuff on the yard?

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yep, responding to stuff on the yard, responding to
stuff in the housing units.
I think every day is trulydifferent, which is one of the
things that I enjoyed about thejob, and I think that that's
just because, you know, in acorrectional setting things can
go from right to left really,really quickly, and so, you know
, most of the day to day dutiesare kind of, you know, all
functions of security, like Isaid, like a Swiss Army knife.

(28:33):
You're going in and you'rechecking locks, you're checking
cameras, you're checking fences,you're checking the rooftops of
buildings to ensure thateverything is, you know, secured
properly.
You're conducting randomshakedowns on the yard.
You know you're conducting yardpresence, you know during
feeding times and everythinglike that, where there's large
amounts of inmates on the yardand everything like that, and
you're kind of, you know, aforce multiplier on the yard,

(28:55):
and then, on top of that, you'realso responding to incidents on
the yard or incidents withinthe housing units.
And then you know there's alsolike an intelligence gathering
kind of aspect of this too,which was good for me, given my
background and I, you know, I'mvery well versed in all of that.
So you know that was one of theportions of the job that I
enjoyed the most kind of, youknow, gathering intelligence on

(29:17):
the inmate populace andeverything like that, and we
work directly for the warden.
So at every institution we workdirectly for the warden and
that's the direct supervisor.
And so your whole job, so tospeak, is basically to report
back to the warden on thesecurity posture of the
institution, and your job everyday is to go in and increase

(29:37):
that posture in whatever way youpossibly can.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Interesting.
So I mean where I've workedbefore we had shakedown crews,
which sounds like a lot of thatintelligence gathering, checking
the locks, security stuff.
But I've always seen where wejust grabbed whoever was
available for use of forces.
So I'm wondering if the thoughtprocess there that if I have
this set group of guys who aretrained very well in doing cell

(30:05):
extractions, less liability,less injuries, less is that kind
of the thought process.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
I think that is the thought process, but, you know,
I think I think that there's a abetter way to utilize the team,
so to speak.
A better way to utilize theteam, so to speak, and um, I say
that because you know a lot ofwhat I saw, um is like a lack of
corrections, one-on-one, so tospeak.
Um, you know, by, and it's byempowering a team to go in and

(30:35):
kind of do this Swiss army knifefunction of everything, a
little bit of everything, youkind of diminish the ability of
your line staff, right, and sothen it becomes a well, you know
this, inmate's, you know, beingargumentative with me.
Okay, we'll call CERT.
Well, is that really a CERTfunction, or do you need to
deescalate the situation as bestas you possibly can, maybe call

(30:55):
for assistance and then, kindof, you know, go from there
right, Like it shouldn't be, I'marguing with an inmate, and
then we're going to jump rightto an A-level response, down to
a unit with an emergencyresponse team, Because what you
have then is you have a teamwhose you know function is a
little bit more than that, goingdown to a situation that they
otherwise might not have to, andthen their attention is being

(31:19):
directed elsewhere, whilesomething else could be going on
in the institution, and so it'sone of those things that you,
as a CERT you know commander,and as a CERT operator, you kind
of have to, you know, think inthe back of your mind well, if
I'm going down to handle thissituation, could they the inmate
population potentially bejumping off another situation
across the yard and I'm then notgoing to be able to respond to
as effectively?

(31:40):
But, I think by empowering yourline staff and you know, kind of
allowing them to do thosecorrections 101 functions, then
you can eliminate a lot of theriffraff, so to speak.
Or you know less importantincidents Not that any incident
is particularly unimportant, butthere's definitely a pecking
order as to what a CERT teamshould be responding to versus

(32:02):
you know what they're actuallyresponding to no.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
It's fascinating because it and I'll tell a quick
story here.
So there was a time I wasworking at an institution and I
saw an inmate who was checkingout a female officer as she
walked away Right.
So I snag him up, I walk himover to the corner.
I'm like, dude, you're notgoing to do that here.
We don't put up with that, moveon, I don't want to see it

(32:25):
again.
Well then, afterwards I wentand told her and I said, hey,
this happened.
I told him this and then shegot upset and I was why are you
upset?
She said cause you took away mypower.
I should have been involved inthat.
And so it kind of sounds likeyou know that that's kind of the
same thing.
Why not let that officer dealwith it?

(32:45):
Right then and there, becauseif you bring in somebody else,
then you're taking their poweraway.
Same with the officer who saysinmate, you can't do that,
because the warden says youcan't.
That's not the way you dealwith inmates.
You can't do that becausethat's the way I run my housing
unit.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
Exactly.
You can't do that becausethat's the way I run my housing
unit Exactly, and I think thatit's no different than when I
was working the street and you'dhave a supervisor or you'd have
another officer show up to yourscene and take over, take over
questioning people, take overdealing with other people, and
then you're kind of like one.
It can be good and bad becausethey might have a good rapport
with you and then yoursupervisor shows up on scene and
they don't have a good rapportwith them and then the situation
goes left really quick, whereasyou know, if you just allow

(33:29):
your people to to perform theirjob duties, you know you might
get a more desired result.
And then, you know, byempowering your, your line staff
and your, you know, lower levelofficers, corporal sergeants,
whatever, um, you're allowingthem to excel within the
profession, you're allowing themto to develop those skills that
they'll eventually need tobecome a supervisor one day.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
So Absolutely that's.
That's a great way to look.
So, while we're talking aboutleadership type stuff, so tell
me some of the um leadershipthat cause you were in a
position where you were able to,you know, lead others.
So tell me some of yourleadership thoughts.
What, what is it that?
Uh, when you're puttingtogether a team, when you're
putting together a group, whatis it that you're looking for in

(34:12):
those guys?

Speaker 2 (34:13):
I think, um, when it comes to like team building and,
and you know, developing a teamof strong people, you know you
want to um one, you want to moldthem and you kind of want to,
you know, develop theirabilities, but you also want
everyone to lean on everyoneelse's abilities.
So if I'm excelling at onething, you know whether I'm
maybe I'm excelling atshakedowns really well I'm.
I'm able to shake down a groupof inmates on the yard and
there's another officer who's alittle bit more hesitant, are,

(34:37):
you know, maybe they have alittle bit of fear and they
might just be scared, and I'veencountered that, you know, I
can't tell you how many times,but so you go over there and you
assist, you help them out orshow them how to effectively
shake someone down, and by doingthat you're going to build up
those people around you so thatyou're all operating effectively
, and then it becomes kind of awell-oiled machine.
You know, I think another thingthat I look, that I

(34:59):
particularly would look for in,you know, other officers, is you
know, carry your weight.
You show up to work today, giveme an honest eight hours of
work, whatever that honest eighthours of work looks like.
Just just show up to work anddo your job as effectively as
possible.
You know, like it's not that,it's not that I would look down

(35:19):
on other officers, but if you'recalling me to handle something
that you can handle yourself,then we got to have a
conversation about that.
We got to, we got to figure outwhat is the way forward.
How can we get you to handlethis situation without me being
present, because I'm not alwaysgoing to be here, and that was
one of the things that I triedto impress upon the other
officers.
You know, whenever I was atwork because I work a C-card
schedule I was Monday throughFriday, eight to four.
So I'm not, I'm not going to bethere on the weekends and I'm

(35:41):
not going to be there afterhours.
So how can we get you tooperate effectively when you
can't call for cert anymore,because once that four o'clock,
five o'clock timeframe comesaround, you're not going to be
able to call for cert anymorebecause the team's going to be
leaving the institution for theday and the population knows
that.
The inmate population knowswhen we show up to work and when
we leave.
You know what I mean and a lotof that you know we had as a
team.
You know we have to flex ourhours, you know, a lot of the

(36:03):
time, because they start to pickup on it.
But you know the overarchinglesson there being that you know
you got to be able to operateeffectively when I'm not here,
because if an inmate, you know,sets a fire in his cell in the
middle of the night, well who'sgoing to extract them and who's
going to take them to RHU?
It's not going to be served,and I live two hours away from
the institution.
So don't call me at six o'clockat night telling me to come
take someone to RHU.

(36:24):
I'm not going to be there, Iwon't even be there in time.
So, really, just empoweringthose that are around you, I
think that, as a young leader,you have to and you have to,
enable those that are around youto do their job effectively and
you also have to be able to,you know, hold people
accountable when they're not,when they're not doing it
effectively.
I think, as as a profession andas a society for that matter,

(36:47):
we've kind of gotten away fromthat, that holding people
accountable and holding people'sfeet to the fire, you know, in
in the game of law enforcementand in the game of corrections.
It's life or death.
It really is life or death.
You know, and I've I've foundthat you know, and I've found
that you know to be the casepretty personally at this point.
So you know, I think you know,when you deal with those
circumstances on a regular basis, you have to impress that upon

(37:08):
those that are around youbecause I think, once you get
into a correctional setting, Ithink there is a lot of
complacency, really lawenforcement in general, but I
think you know, in acorrectional setting, you know
particularly, there's a lot ofcomplacency.
Um, and as, as the old sayinggoes, complacency kills, right?

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Absolutely, absolutely, it does.
So let me ask you a question.
I didn't.
I didn't preview this with you,but you're one of the younger
guys I've had on the show.
How old are you?
If you don't want to, 28, 28.
Okay, perfect.
I've had a lot of older guys onthe show, and so what I hear
this these days is that newgeneration.
You know they're like this newgeneration.

(37:46):
So I want to hear from you,being younger and coming up in
this, what is it that you see?
What's the what's thechallenges being put there by
the older generation?
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (37:59):
Oh, absolutely.
Um, you know, my generation isthe Y generation, and I say the
Y generation because we alwaysask why.
You know, the old school way ofyou're going to do this because
I told you to do it, forwhatever reason, doesn't fly
with my generation.
I'm pretty good at it because Iserved in the military.
There really is no option atthat point.
So you know.

(38:21):
But I think providing guidanceand kind of providing what the
outlook is or what the missionis or what the particular goal
in that moment or period of timeis, is important to people that
are my age and that are withinmy generation.
The why of why we do thingsmatters.
It's not, you know, becausethat's the way we've always done

(38:41):
it, and I can't tell you howmany times I've heard that too.
Right, that's the way we'vealways done it.
Well, why do we do it that way?
Right?
And then you have a moreauthoritarian style leader in
the older generation, and it'snot necessarily their fault.
I mean, they were taught tolead and, you know, taught to be
that way themselves.
So, but providing that why andgiving the guidance and not kind

(39:07):
of holding all the cards closeto your chest the majority of
people in my generation.
They want to be led, they wantto be fed the information, they
want to be in the know and theywant to have the tools to
succeed.
So when they feel like theirideas are kind of minimalized,

(39:27):
then they're going to lookelsewhere for employment.
To be honest with you, they gotto know that there's a level of
buy-in and that they're able togo in and kind of operate by
themselves without beingmicromanaged or or not given a
reason or an explanation as toas to what they're doing and why
they do it.
You know, and I think in acorrectional setting it's

(39:48):
important as well, Just, youknow.
Going back to what we'retalking about, with it being
life and death, right, Well, Ineed you to secure these
specific doors at this specifictime.
Well, why Well?
Why Well?
Because if you don't, then thismight happen or that might
happen, and it seems silly thatyou would have to explain those
things.
But I think that it's justimportant for context and I

(40:10):
think my generation's kind ofbig on that.
We need the context and we needa little bit of the why as to
what we're doing, and it servesa good purpose in terms of your
motivation and your camaraderiewith those around you.
Once you're all buying into thesame mission and you know what
that specific mission is, you'regoing to be more inclined to
want to go into work every dayand complete it.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Those are great answers and I welcome the why I
truly do?
Because for many, many decades,before I even came along, we
did it because we were told todo it.
It's because somebody else toldthem to do it.
A lot of stuff got put to theside and we didn't know why.
You know some of the, some ofmy wise, I didn't catch on till

(40:54):
till 10 years in, when I saw itmyself somebody get hurt or
somebody escape or somethinghappened.
So, um, I think absolutely weneed to pay attention to those
wise.
What are the questions they'reasking and how can we answer
these questions?
And are they?
Are they being answeredcorrectly, Right, and are our

(41:14):
policies falling within that?
I think we can learn as muchfrom them as what they'll learn
from us coming up in there.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Well, and I think, like one of the other issues
that I've kind of dealt withthroughout my career in law
enforcement is it's a sayingthat resonates pretty strongly
in my head and it's well,military guys or prior service
guys don't really last year andit's you know.
My question to that is why havewe asked the question?
Because, as far as I'mconcerned, if guys with prior

(41:43):
military service aren'tsurviving with an agency, then
we need to ask ourselves whatwe're doing wrong as an agency.
You know and it's not to say,it's not to get on my high horse
and talk about how every personwho's ever served in the
military is the greatest thingsince sliced bread.
I think we all know that that'snot the case.
I think we all know that themilitary is kind of a microcosm
of society and there's, you know, there's bad people, just like

(42:04):
there is on the street.
There's people that get arrestedin the military, there's people
that get dishonorablydischarged, right, but I think
the majority of what we'reseeing, as far as you know,
veterans who are applying to bein corrections and be in law
enforcement are people that wantto continue their service and
that are genuinely doing it forthe right reasons.
And so we got to look atourselves as a profession and

(42:24):
say, why are we not making themark on that?
Because I can tell you, theenvironment that I look for in a
law enforcement agency or inthe profession of law
enforcement itself is one ofcamaraderie and teamwork and
brotherhood and something thatkind of emulates the same
environment that you get in themilitary.
And if you know you can'trecreate that, then you're

(42:45):
probably going to miss the markwhen it comes to recruiting
people like that.
And you know, I also thinkthere's a level of intangibles
that you know veterans bring tothe table, one of which is a
moral and ethical compass that'sa little bit higher than the
average person.
And I only say that becausewithin the corrections system I
think nationwide, there's alongstanding reputation of

(43:06):
corruption amongst certain staffmembers, and I think you see it
time and again, and I thinkwhen you deal particularly with
prior service members, there's alot less of that.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Right, okay, yeah, why aren't we attracting the
military?
Because we always have before.
I mean, you look at the guyscoming out of World War II, the
guys coming out of Korea,vietnam, you know, that was a
good government job and I thinkyou're right.
I think they enjoyed thecamaraderie and maybe still
being in that paramilitary typeorganization.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Absolutely, and, like you know the fast-paced
environment that law enforcementprovides, and even corrections
or policing, whatever it is, youknow the environment that it
provides is something that Ithink a lot of veterans would
enjoy.
I certainly enjoyed it.
The guys that served with methat are paramilitary enjoyed it
a lot.
And you know we can't sit hereand say that it's the fear of

(43:59):
working in a correctionalfacility that's deterring our
veterans from working here.
If they're willing to go tocombat and die for the country,
I think they're willing to, youknow, serve in a correctional
facility.
How do we make that a littlebit more palatable for them so
we can start, you know, bumpingthese?

Speaker 1 (44:14):
So I've kind of saved it, you know, so that we can
talk about it.
But recently you've had apretty traumatic thing happen.
That doesn't happen toeverybody, we talk about it and
it's something that everybody'saware of.
And that was you were prettybadly assaulted recently.

(44:35):
Can you tell me about that?

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah.
So I was a pretty, prettynormal day at work, honestly.
I think I got to work andeverything at the institution
was kind of functioning normally, to the best that I can
describe it.
And I received a call to assistanother officer down one of the
housing units, and I didn'tknow the full extent.

(44:57):
I knew that she was dealingwith an inmate who wasn't being
the most cooperative, so tospeak, and it kind of ties back
into what we were talking aboutwith what is a real emergency
versus what is not.
Now in a given situation in theinstitution.
If I was physically there andable to help out, I would go

(45:21):
help out to the best of myability.
If I thought it was somethingthat I was capable of doing and
it wouldn't put me in a messedup situation, I would go help to
the best of my ability.
And again, that kind of goesback to empowering those that
are around you and kind of beingthere when it counts.
So I went down to the housingunit to assist.
The inmate was refusing to besecured behind his door.
He wanted to come out for rec.

(45:42):
I think he had already been outfor rec for about an hour or so
at that point.
But he was giving her a hardtime so she wanted him to go
behind the door for the day.
So I show up and he's refusingto let her close the door to the
cell and secure it.
So I had a little bit ofrapport with the guy I hadn't
really dealt with him too much,but it wasn't to the point where

(46:04):
I thought it was going to be anissue and he told me that I
could step in and secure thecell door, which you know.
Normally you could take that asa pre-assault indicator if you
know someone's telling you to dothat, especially an inmate.
But it's also not uncommon foryou know an inmate to want to
deal with one officer versus theother, especially if you know
they've been arguing with anofficer for the past half an
hour before I show up and mightnot be too inclined to deal with

(46:25):
her anymore.
So and I think that it was, youknow, one of those particular
situations and I stepped in toclose the door and he tried to
physically remove me from thecell, at which time I used my
chemical munitions, and then itturned into a physical fight.
He and I were physicallyfighting and this occurred on
the second tier of the units ofthe top tier and I noticed

(46:47):
another inmate out of the cornerof my eye attempting to kind of
ambush me from the side.
I was able to kind of maneuveraround that attack and then kind
of retreat in a differentdirection and ultimately I ended
up with my back basically upagainst the wall of the top tier
.
And now I had these two inmatesthat were assaulting me and I

(47:08):
noticed a third inmate come frommy periphery and he ended up
coming up on my left flank andhe stabbed me in the abdomen and
then he stabbed me twice overthe top of my head.
I didn't realize at the time,but I was told after the fact
that I was also being struckwith a lock and a sock that the
initial inmate who I was dealingwith he was the one that was

(47:29):
striking me with it.
So at this point it was athree-on-one.
I had the other officer with meand she was doing the best that
she could, but ultimately I wasstabbed three times and struck
in the face a bunch of the LochNessau and I told someone else
recently I think at the momentit was kind of like an
out-of-body experience.

(47:49):
I never lost consciousnessduring it, so I have a very
vivid recollection of it and Ithink, given the circumstances,
it was a pretty intimate, upclose and personal type
encounter.
I was able to, you know, fightoff or escape the ambush somehow
and I was able to walk out ofthe housing unit under my own
power and while I was beingescorted across the yard by

(48:13):
another officer to our medicalfacility, I ended up collapsing
on the yard and I didn't realizeat the time, but I had a
punctured lung from the initialstab wound in my abdomen.
I couldn't see a whole lot.
There was a lot ofcross-contamination with the OC
spray.
I really couldn't see anything.
I could just hear voices ofother officers responding to the

(48:34):
situation.
Ultimately they got me to thesituation and ultimately they
got me to the medical facilityand stabilized me there, and
then I was trauma transported tothe ER about 30 or 40 minutes
away from the institution, whereultimately they were able to
fully stabilize me, and then Istarted the recovery process
from there.
I think in the moment all Icould really think about was my

(48:56):
wife.
I'm newly married, so about amonth prior to this incident
actually, a month exactly priorto this incident was when I got
married, and then, two weeksprior to getting married, or two
or three weeks prior to gettingmarried, we found out that we
have our first child on the way.
Moment I uh, you know, that'sall I could think about, um,

(49:16):
when I was fighting, um, youknow, and, and I was like I
don't know what I got to do, butI got to get out of here.
I said I don't, this isn't whereI'm going out.
I said, you know, I just I justsaid that in my mind and I was
like you know this, this is whatI got to do.
And so, um, I was in the backof the ambulance Bray and I had
handed the EMTs my work cellphone.

(49:36):
I said here, call my wife andput it on speaker.
And definitely the hardestphone call of my life, for sure.
I told her that I was on my wayto the hospital.
I'd been stabbed up real bad,and I think that that's a phone
call that nobody ever wants tohave to make and I think it's
the nightmare fuel that probablyfills the heads of law

(49:56):
enforcement families around thecountry.
But she was the second one tothe hospital.
My dad actually beat her to thehospital.
He was the first one there andthen while I was recovering, I
had numerous people pop in andout.
I actually had the director ofthe entire agency.
He popped up at about 9.30, 10o'clock at night to visit me and

(50:16):
he's great.
I can't speak high enough abouthim and it really did a lot for
my morale to kind of see himthere and kind of talk through
some things and just know thathe's there and he cares about
you and you know, you're notjust a number in a body, sure
sure?

Speaker 1 (50:33):
So I'm going to go back to the assault.
It sounds like you probablywalked into something they were
preparing for.
Anyway.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
if they had weapons ready to go, they knew that one
of them wasn't going to go in orthey were going to have a fight
, and so and I think you know,since then I I I've done nothing
but kind of Monday morningquarterback myself in that, in
that moment, and I think thatthere's a healthy amount of that
that you can do after acritical incident.
And I think you know, based oneverything that I've been

(51:03):
through in both my military andlaw enforcement career, I'm
really no stranger to a criticalincident.
You know what I mean.
I think this is something thatI've unfortunately been
predisposed to throughout mycareer and it's unfortunate, but
it's also, you know, a blessingin a way, because had I not
been, you know, through so much,or had I not experienced so
much up to my point in this youknow this point in my career I

(51:26):
think it goes a different way,right, had I not, you know,
spent some of my own hard earnedmoney and taken some outside
training and, you know, donesome of the things that I've
done to kind of better myself asa law enforcement professional,
I think this goes a differentway and I think that's an
entirely different conversationthat we could have.
In terms of training, right, I'ma correctional emergency

(51:49):
response team commander, butI've got to go to outside
sources and pay money out of mypocket to get the training
that's necessary for me to do myjob effectively.
Why is that right?
We don't ask our NFL superstarsto go out and pay for their own
football training.
For me, someone thatessentially has to act like a
professional athlete in aprofession that demands a lot of

(52:09):
me physically, I got to pay outof my own pocket.
So how do we get better fromthis as a profession?
Because I can tell you that lawenforcement as a whole misses
the mark when it comes totraining.
Right, we can grab a bunch ofgrown adults and put them in a
gymnasium and have them slap abag and yell, get back for four
hours, but is that going toprepare you for the fight that I

(52:30):
went through?
It's not.
I promise you, it's not.
It's not even remotely, doesn'teven scratch the surface.
So I think there's a lesson tobe learned there.
You know it's a lesson to belearned there.
You know it's a little bitdifferent of a topic and a
little bit of a change of gears,but I do think that when we
talk about training, we've gotto train for that fight, because
that's the reality and that'sthe fight that you've got to
make it out of.

(52:51):
Fortunately, I was able to makeit out and not many people do.
You know what I mean, I thinkeven since this incident, I've
seen three or four correctionalofficers be killed down in one,
down in Florida, I think.
I saw one recently in FortWorth, texas.
So so that's where the focusand the shift has to be is how

(53:11):
do we properly train our peopleto be effective in those moments
and then how do we increase theoverall safety level to
completely eliminate thosesituations as a whole?
You know, and I think what'sfrustrating for me looking back
on it, is that at the time myteammates were being tasked out
elsewhere within the institutiondue to staff shortages.

(53:34):
So now you've got emergencyresponse team commanders, you
know, fulfilling duties of linestaff when they could be
together, right, and had I hadsome, some teammates there, I
don't know that the situationgoes that way either.
So you know, there's a lot to,there's a lot to unpack with it,
um, you know, but I think, uh,overall, I look at it as a win.

(53:56):
Um, I'm here, I'll be here forthe birth of my daughter.
I can't, I can't ask for morethan that.
Um, so, but it's just, uh, it'sjust frustrating, and it's been
frustrating from thatstandpoint too, just because you
know we're we're talking about.
You know someone who wants to bea change agent for the, for the
, for the profession.
You know what I mean.

(54:17):
Like I this, this is like a myincident is one of hundreds of
incidents that happen around thecountry on a daily basis, and
how many law enforcementofficers are assaulted or killed
in the line of duty.
And I think you know kind ofwhat we've been given is like a
mandate as to how can we producethe best quality law
enforcement officers that wepossibly can.

(54:37):
I started my career as a policeofficer and two months later
the incident with George Floydhappened up in Minnesota and I
won't speak too much on that.
But that was also, you know,the American public's looking at
us and saying, hey, we need a,a better quality of law
enforcement officer out there onthe street.
So how do we match that as aprofession with the standards in
which that we train ourprofessionals to and meet that

(55:00):
bill?
You know and provide, you knowthe public exactly what they're
asking for.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Sure, sure, and no shade to anyone out there, but
you know the fact that ithappened to you who had been in
the military, who had been apolice officer, who had taken
extra training.
You're not the normalcorrectional officer.
There's a bunch of people whodo.
I took training outside of workalso, but that's not everybody.

(55:28):
A lot of people show up to thisjob thinking it's a factory job
, and it is until that one day,and it is until that one day.
So I mean, they don't trainmilitary for what is happening
right now.
They train them for what couldhappen.
They do even police departments.

(55:50):
I train people all over thecountry and police departments
have no problems writing checksto put people in my classes
Corrections it's like pullingteeth.
They want to do it internally,which I have some I've talked
about that in previous episodes.
I'm not a huge fan sometimes orthey want to do it with the

(56:13):
minimal disruption.
Well, we've got to get this towhere we can send our people to
good quality training taught bygood quality people, that gives
them tools they can walk insideof, because and this is me going
off on a little rant but untilour people feel safe inside,
you're going to keep losing them.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
A hundred percent You're going to lose them.
They're either going to walkaway from the profession or
they're going to fall victim tothe corruption because they feel
safer around the inmatepopulation than they do the
staff, and I think that it's anunfortunate reality that we kind
of allow this to happen.
And I do say allowed because Ifeel like that's kind of where
we're at as a profession.
You know, like as an emergencyresponse team commander or as

(56:58):
any line staff correctionsofficer, why is it that I can't
be trained in like jujitsu orlike a martial art or
self-defense right, I don't.
You can call it a palm heelstrike, you can call it whatever
you need to, but I need to beequipped with the tools that'll
actually save my life.
You know what I mean and Ithink that that's that's
important, and I think that thatthe training just has to be

(57:21):
taken a little bit more serious.
You know what I mean and Ithink you know we can as a
profession, we can invest allthe money we want in you know
contraband detection or you knowdrone detection or you know all
of those those nice fancybuzzword style things that that
do help the facilities.
And I'm not I'm not taking awayfrom it, saying that they don't

(57:41):
have the facilities becausethey absolutely do.
Um, but until you, until youstart, you know, putting some
investing some of this moneyback into your people, it's
going to be tough to meet themark and kind of, uh, increase
the overall safety across thecountry.
Um, you know, I think we'retalking about an environment
that'll never fully be safe.
I don't think you can, I don'tthink you can ever say
corrections will fully be safe.

(58:02):
Right, there's theunpredictability of a, of an
inmate or an incarceratedindividual will always exist.
It's existed since thebeginning of time.
It's how we adapt to that andhow we get better, because
they're getting better.
They are.
So how do we get better inresponse to that?

Speaker 1 (58:17):
And I don't think the public even knows.
You know when we do rounds andstuff which will stop them, if
we see them practicing martialarts, if we see them doing this
stuff.
But you'll walk by inmate cellsand they've taken their
mattress and rolled it up, takensheets, made strips so that
they can roll this up in a ball.
It looks like a heavy bag.
And then they're sitting therepunching the heavy bag on their

(58:38):
bunk.
They're training for the daythey have to fight us.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Yeah, and when there's a staff shortage, right,
and specifically within SCDC,there's a massive staffing
shortage, and especially at theinstitutions that I worked at, I
mean, how can you effectivelysupervise that?
Like you might be able to stopthe one inmate that's doing it,
but that doesn't mean there'snot another 10 across the other
side of the housing unit thatare doing it at the same time

(59:03):
right, and so how do we emboldenour people to effectively do
this job right and effectivelymake a difference?
You know, because it's hard.
You know, we talk aboutstaffing shortages all the time,
and I think staffing shortagesare something that's going on
nationwide.
But how do we combat staffingshortages?
We empower our people, we givethem the proper training and we

(59:26):
make them feel safe at work, andI think that you hit the nail
on the head with that.
I think making your people feelsafe at work is what's going to
make them want to come back towork every morning 100%.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
So let me ask you, how are you doing after being
assaulted?
I know I've been assaultedmyself and you kind of sit down
and you have that moment whereyou go, wow, you know how about
your?

Speaker 2 (59:48):
wife, she's, she's good, I think.
You know, initially she wasdefinitely I mean, rightfully so
just shaken to the core by itand seeing me in the hospital, I
consider myself prettyresilient and I think that I've
actually just outright dealtwith it in a much better manner

(01:00:12):
than I have some of the otherincidents that I've been in in
the past in my career, and Ialways kind of, you know, carry
a little bit of a chip on myshoulder, so to speak, and I try
to just be as upbeat andpositive as I possibly can.
And that hasn't changed withthis incident.
And, you know, I think all I'vetried to do is just take the

(01:00:32):
positives out of it.
You know, while I have somescars, absolutely you know, but
I've got my life, so you knowthat's always a positive.
But, you know, will I have somescars?
Absolutely you know, but I'vegot my life.
So yeah, you know that's alwaysa positive.
But uh, you know, I think itgoes back to, like you know, the
old saying if everyone's got aplan until they get punched in
the face, well you know, youbetter have one.
You know what I mean?
That's, that's kind of uhespecially in this job.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I thinkthat's that was kind of the

(01:00:54):
lesson for me is, you know, andI think, going back to the
mindset that we carry in thisprofession, I think it's very
important, especially forincidents like that.
And you know, I think, had Inot had the mindset that I
carried into my job every day,you know, I don't know that I
would have been as well prepared, I guess, so to speak, for

(01:01:14):
something like that.
But you know, especially as aCERT, cert commander, and I
think any correctional officershould carry the same mindset.
But you know, when you walkinto a housing unit, you can't
just be walking into a housingunit.
You're looking for your entryand exit points, you're looking
at the population, you're seeingwhat the population is doing,
you're being observant.
That's what this job demands ofyou, because they're they're

(01:01:36):
doing the same to you, they'reobserving your every move,
they're watching you, they'rewatching your patterns.
You know what I mean, um, andso, being unpredictable, but
also being on alert at all timesand carrying a combat mindset
with you because you have tohave a combat mindset, um, it'll
help.
You gotta have like a sixthsense about you, gotta have your
sweaty sense of stinging whenyou're walking around in azine.
You can't.

(01:01:56):
You know, you're just walkingaround like you're taking a walk
at the park.
You really got to be attentiveand you know on point every time
that you, you know, do this job.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Amazing story, amazing story.
So thank you so much for comingon to the Prison Officer
Podcast.
Thank you very much.
I look forward to seeing whereyou go in the the future and how
many months are you going tohave a little one?
Uh five, five, wow, yeah, well,enjoy that.
It makes everything worth it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Yeah, it's going by a lot, a lot faster than I think.
Um, I would like to to quick saysomething and uh, I just wanted
to thank my dad for everythingand for me being at this point
that I'm at now and kind ofhelping guide me through this
career path.
It means the world to me and Ithink that he is not only the

(01:02:49):
best correctional professionalthat I know, but he's one of the
best professionals and humanbeings that I know and I think
that now more than ever, I havea certain level of appreciation
for the job that he's now donefor 33 years.
I haven't even done it for afraction of the time, but you
know, knowing that, you knowhe's gone in and done this for
three decades now is, you know,impressive nonetheless to say

(01:03:12):
for me.
But you know, I just I love himand you know, I know that he's
a he's a little bit broken upover what happened, but if not
for him, I don't think that I'dbe half the man that I am or
still be here in this positionthat I am today.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Yeah, great words.
Your father's a leader that Ifollow on LinkedIn.
I love his posts and you guysshould, if you haven't, go back
and listen to episode 56.
He is quite the leader andthat's where I'm sure you've got
a lot of this from.
So, a hundred percent, yeah,great words, great words.
You have a great day.

(01:03:46):
Good talking to you.
Thanks to you as well.
I would like to take a minute tothank one of our sponsors that
make the prison officer podcastpossible.
Omni RTLS is a company thatI've been working with for the
last year.
I am proud to be part of thisteam of correctional
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(01:04:07):
system on the market today.
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(01:04:29):
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99: Honoring a Legacy in Corrections - Interview w/Conor Fredericks

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}99: Honoring a Legacy in Corrections - Interview w/Conor Fredericks