This is a Re-Broadcast of The Silence Crisis in Corrections with Michael Cantrell from The Independent Voter Podcast -
Think the justice system only affects the incarcerated? Think again. In this episode of the How It Really Works series of the Independent Voter Podcast, Chad Peace sits down with corrections expert Michael Cantrell to unpack the hidden mental health crisis facing correctional officers across the country.
Cantrell, a former officer and host of the Prison Officer Podcast, reveals how burnout, PTSD, and emotional isolation have become normalized in a profession that rarely makes the headlines. From training culture to administrative neglect, this conversation peels back the layers on a system that’s breaking the very people we expect to hold it together.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone serious about justice reform—and it’s just one chapter in a much bigger story.
Chad Peace chad@ivc.media
Contact us: mike@theprisonofficer.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ThePrisonOfficer
Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
O-Lost Media.
Welcome to the IndependentVoter Podcast.
From Independent Voter Project.
We're going to expand a littlebit a new era of independent
voter news that the journalistsjust don't cover.
It's where we have thesedebates on a national level,
really taking on issues so thatpeople have more educated
disagreements with each othereducated disagreements with each
(00:28):
other.
Let's just explain how theprocess really works.
Welcome back to the IndependentVoter Project, where we try to
unpack some of the complexitiesthat often get oversimplified in
our public policy discussion.
This podcast is part of our howit Really Works series.
We're talking in this seriesabout health care behind bars,
(00:50):
and today we're going to focuson really the health care and
the life behind bars ofcorrectional officers, the
people we expect to take care ofthe prison system and are the
caretakers behind bars but arefacing a mental health trauma,
burnout and some serious issuesthat really don't just go
(01:13):
under-discussed.
They go undiscussed in ourpublic policy conversation, and
with that I'm bringing on ourspecial guest, michael Contro.
Mike, I want to thank you foryour work first of all, and
thank you for being here.
As I think we've heard, the jobof a correctional officer is
both dangerous and emotionallyisolating and deeply
(01:34):
misunderstood.
I want you to thank you forcoming here, educating us and
the work that you continue to dofor others and getting them
prepared to be correctionalofficers and improve as
correctional officers.
So my guest today, michaelCantrell, has a life served
behind bars, not because he didanything wrong, but because he
(01:56):
wanted to, you know, serve thepublic.
And from that perspective, youknow, and now retired, has his
own podcast, has written severalbooks, has been a mentor for
folks who want to get into thecorrectional officer system.
But we brought him on to talkabout some of the realities,
(02:16):
some of it good, some of it bad.
Right, it's a reality that youknow if you're going to have a
prison system and you're goingto contain some of the bad
things that go on in society,you have to have public servants
there that are going to overseeand be the caretakers for the
(02:36):
whole, the entire system.
So you know, with that, michael, why don't you introduce
yourself?
Give a little bit of yourbackground and your credentials
in speaking to this importantissue?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
My name is Michael Cantrell.
I started in corrections in1992.
And to tell you how old I am,the place I started is now a
museum so you can go visit it ifyou want.
I started at Missouri State Pen.
I spent about nine years withthe Missouri Department of
(03:09):
Corrections.
I had the opportunity to go tothe Federal Bureau of Prisons.
I'd spend the next 21 and ahalf years there, multiple
penitentiaries, multiple areasand retired out of Washington DC
as the chief of the Office ofEmergency Preparedness.
Since then, like you said, Ihave a podcast.
(03:29):
I've written a couple of booksand I still teach for a couple
of companies.
So I still get to seecorrectional officers and law
enforcement every week forcommand presence or pepper ball,
which are the two companies,the main companies I teach for.
So I'm still out there.
I'm still.
I say I retired, but I also sayI'm failing retirement horribly
(03:51):
.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well.
So I guess on that point you'refailing.
Why are you failing retirement?
Why are you doing this right?
You know you got your wife, yougot your nice.
I believe you got a nice.
You know nice farm and animalsand all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So why are you failing so bad at retiring?
Because there's such a need.
There's such a need out therefor corrections is just hungry
for good training.
I know that the publicperception is that we get as
much training as law enforcementofficers.
That's an absolute fallacy.
Some correctional officers getas little as a week or two
training before they get throwninside working and then getting
(04:32):
into good quality training afterthat is tough, because the
money that we spend in prisons alarge portion of it is salaries
.
Absolutely Any budget that youlook at, that's going to be it,
but the rest of it goes to theinmate needs.
Training is always overlookedand it's the thing they need the
most.
You know, today they're talkingabout retention, recruitment.
(04:54):
I believe that the reason wedon't have good retention is
because our staff don't feellike they're trained.
They don't feel like they'reknowledgeable.
They don't feel like they'resafe when they're inside.
Somebody who's confident andhas the tools to do something
can face almost anything, but ifyou're having to wonder whether
or not I can do this, or youknow if I should do this, you're
(05:17):
going to be hesitant when thetime comes.
So I love getting out there.
I love seeing these peopleamazing people work hidden
behind those walls and fences,and not only our prisons, but
our jails, our detention centers, private prisons.
It's not just what some peoplethink you know as a state prison
(05:38):
.
There's a whole bunch of peoplewho are out there working.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
And I mean, when we set out to do this episode, we
knew there was a lot of you knowissues that were uncovered and
we didn't know exactly.
You know everything that wewere, you know, going to write
about until we did the research.
One of the things we found, forexample, in California I know
you know you're out in Missouri,but in California we spend $4
(06:04):
billion on health care, right,and we know that nationally,
like, there's a constitutionalstandard, we have to provide
adequate health care forprisoners and stuff.
And so I'm going back to yourpoint.
Right, you have correctionalofficers that come into the
system, come, sometimes gettingtwo, three weeks training, and
we think, okay, well, trainingon how to, you know, maintain
(06:24):
the prison population, keep themunder control.
But you know, what is yourexperience been with?
Like OK, or a medic, but has todeal with the realities of
(06:47):
day-to-day taking care of thehealth of the prison population.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Sure, and that is part of what we do.
I mean, that's part of ourcharge.
We do it at a level.
Some people have never had thelevel of healthcare they get
once they go into prison.
But one thing I want to makenote of before I talk more about
that is that the publicperception of prison is what
they get out of TV and media.
There's many different levels ofinmates.
(07:15):
Okay, you've got inmates downhere that have done something
wrong.
They made a mistake, they'regoing to be back out.
They need, you know, they needskills, they need stuff like
that so that they can becomeproductive.
You've got another level ofinmate who is never going to be
productive in society.
They don't want to draw SocialSecurity, they don't want
retirement, they want to livethis thug life that they've
(07:37):
built and that they've grown uparound or whatever, and they're
never going to come back intosociety the way a lot of the
public thinks.
So Inside all that, we've gotmultiple levels.
We've got a huge amount ofmental health inmates, because
we have no place to put ourmental health in this prison or
in this country.
They're either in our hospitalsor they're in our prisons.
(08:00):
The other thing we have is mostof the people who live this
hard lifestyle have ruined theirbodies, and I spent 14 years at
the Federal Medical Center inSpringfield, missouri, and you
know you've got Hells Angelsbikers who are now missing two
legs.
You know they may not be asphysically as much of a problem,
(08:21):
but they still are violent,they still are criminal, they
still have a criminal mindset.
Another thing that people don'trealize about the Federal
Medical Center is how big thedialysis unit is.
The number of people who'veruined their livers and kidneys
by the time we get them and thisis a huge cost to the United
(08:41):
States is to keep these peoplenot only incarcerated, which is
a certain level of money that wespend.
You talked about California.
The Federal Bureau of Prisonsspends eight.
Their last budget was 8.3billion for fewer inmates.
So you've got these guys whohave these medical issues, and
(09:02):
then, on top of that, we have toprovide the security, because
they're also criminal, and sothat's a thing that they don't
ever show on TV.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Well, I mean, that's just some of the misconceptions
of the prisoners themselves,right and like, even so, that
there's a lot of misconceptionsto break up there.
And when you're talkingdirectly about the prisoners,
but going back to thecorrectional officers themselves
, what do you find is thebiggest misconception?
I mean, you live, right, youlived your life as a
correctional officer, right, youcan, you know, you have the
(09:35):
reputation out there of who acorrectional officer is.
So I guess, from yourperspective somebody who's lived
it what is the biggestmisconception and one
misconception you'd like toclear up?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, I've mentioned this before but it's such a good
analogy.
There is no one correctionalofficer, just like there's no
one inmate.
People ask me well, movie andTV, what's the most like real
life?
And I always go to Green Mile,even though that's a fantasy
movie if you look at the mainofficers in there.
Tom Hanks, that good, solid guy, comes to work every day, does
(10:06):
his job the way he's supposed to, he cares about people.
You got the big guy bull behindhim.
You know he's the good, strongguy, but he keeps his mouth shut
and he only deals with stuffwhen he has to.
You got the old man who'sworried about retirement and
policy right, and then they showthe rookie.
And the rookie in that movie isportrayed brilliantly because
he's always looking up to theother three, seeing what they do
(10:28):
and how they've made it throughthis career.
And then, off to the side, youhave Percy.
And yes, we do have Percy's,but we're judged by this couple
of percent of staff who arePercy's.
And I don't care whether you'rea lawyer, a doctor, a nurse,
whatever you are, all of youhave that type of employee there
.
The problem is when.
(10:48):
When that type of employeescrews up in my job.
People get hurt, people escapepeople uh, you know, get
excessive use of force, thattype of stuff.
Uh, it's not most of us, it'sjust a couple of us.
The rest of the people in hereare the coaches.
They're at your church, they'reyou know, they're great leaders
.
We learn leadership inside ourprisons because we lead people.
(11:12):
So when we go out in thecommunity we're often the t-ball
coach, we're often leading, youknow, the church study on
Sunday.
We're doing that kind of stuffbecause we're the leaders, not
only inside, but we're theleaders in the community.
But we don't talk about itbecause people have this twisted
view of what I do inside that Iwalk in there with a baseball
(11:36):
bat and just start whackingpeople.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right.
The public, at least what I'vegrown up, you know watching TV
and you know you see shows likeLocked Up or that and like
that's that's the averageperson's exposure to it.
Right Is kind of this roughedge.
One of the things that justblew my mind in doing this
research was a was a statisticthat came out that almost 30
percent of correctional officersare suffering from something
(12:02):
really close to PTSD, if notPTSD Right, which is at a level
of combat veterans andeverything.
So how, knowing thatcorrectional is right their moms
, their dads, their brothers,their sisters, their t-ball
coaches right and then you goand you look at a stat like that
from someone who lived theirlife in the system.
You know what is your take onthat.
(12:24):
How do we deal with it?
What does the public need toknow, because that's a crisis
level, and what do we have to doto deal with a crisis like that
?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Sure, and there's different levels of PTSD.
What we tend to see incorrections now there could be a
riot, there could be thatincident that causes PTSD.
But it's the cumulative PTSD.
It's the day in and day outmanipulation.
It's the day in and day outviolence.
It's the day in and day outself-mutilation that we see
(12:53):
amongst the inmates.
It's that type of stuff thatmake those little mind scars
that over a career you know youhave developed not only this,
this, um, how it's?
You don't look at the humanrace like you did 30 years ago.
Right, you've been.
You've had people try tomanipulate you every single day
(13:14):
of your career.
You've had people try tomanipulate you every single day
of your career.
You've had people violent infront of you most of your career
.
So you become very tough.
You push people away and we getto where we don't trust people
because we're manipulated somuch.
That was the hardest thing forme.
The violence I could handle,that didn't bother me as much,
(13:37):
but the the constantmanipulation to where you
couldn't trust anybody.
And then you end up lookingaround and and and you don't
trust the people that areoutside and the people that are
around you and you start hangingout with just the people that
you know.
Um, one of the things I talkabout in my classes.
(13:57):
You know, when we're inside andyou get involved in the use of
force, you're on the bottom ofthat pile and you hit your body
alarm.
Here comes these 12 otherofficers and the sound of
running boots is just, I mean,it's unbelievable.
They're there to rescue you.
It's a level of love that mostpeople don't ever get to
experience, because they'rethere to rescue you and this
(14:17):
will happen many times during acareer.
And then you get outside andyou go home and your wife has
saved supper in the refrigeratorand that level of love doesn't
seem the same.
You know, it's not as strong,it's not as immediate and it
distorts our reality, becausemost people would look at that
(14:38):
and go, oh wow, she thoughtabout me, she took care of you
know, made sure I had somethingto eat when I got home.
But for us, we get this.
You know it's just twisted viewof love, of people, of trust,
and the main thing we can do istalk about it Quit.
You know every agency and somepeople aren't going to like that
(15:01):
I say this, but every agencyhas an employee assistance
program For most people, formost officers, that's being ran
by how do I say this nicely by apsychologist who has no idea
what we go through.
She's not in the trenches withus.
They're not in the T whatever.
(15:23):
They're not in the trencheswith us.
They don't understand it.
They want to talk pretty andexpect us to fall into that.
Well, that doesn't work for us.
We don't see pretty the sameway other people do.
I don't get to go home at 5o'clock.
I've worked for 16 hour shiftsin a row.
Twice in my career.
I worked more than 24 hours ina row.
(15:43):
And you're in a place whereyour situational awareness has
to be um, you know here, and youcan't see anything in front of
you except for the Mountain Dewthat's trying to keep you awake
and uh, so it's just.
It's a whole messed up world.
(16:03):
It's not normal and we live inthere.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
We exist in there and we make it somehow.
Well, yet you're an advocatefor correctional officers and
helping folks becomecorrectional officers, right?
So there's got to be somethingthat draws you to it.
So you know what.
What is it that keeps drawingyou to it and what are the types
of things that you're lookingat in order to fix?
You know some of those problems, like you know, we we saw 63
(16:27):
percent, based on one studyDon't even they don't.
They don't seek the servicesthat are provided to them.
You know, for one reason orother, maybe they perceive the
psychiatrist is going to be outof touch with them, maybe it's
another reason, but you knowwhat is it that draws you into
it?
Try to improve the system andhow do you see addressing some
(16:47):
of those problems?
Like you know, you got seriousmental health issues, but maybe
we either don't, officers don'ttake it, or you know it's, it's
just not adequate, right?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Everybody's got their own opinion.
I did.
I spent some time talking to aprofessor who did some study on
this and they asked me what Ithought about it and what I saw.
I'm a leader inside there.
I'm trying to get through theday.
I'm trying to promote, I'mtrying to become a lieutenant or
a captain or whatever.
The minute I go into EAP peoplestart looking at you like well,
(17:25):
if you can't take care of yourlife at home, how are you going
to be in charge here when theshit hits the fan?
And so we avoid it.
I'm not going to put myself ina position in front of other
staff or inmates to, because inour job that's taken advantage
of.
Um, if we show a weakness, ifthere's a chink in the armor,
(17:47):
somebody will stick a kniferight in that chink, you know.
So you can't ever let yourarmor down.
And until we move some of thisoutside of work, where it's not
being seen, whereconfidentiality actually happens
, which in the agencies, I'veseen that has caused a lot of
(18:08):
problems because people go lookfor help and then other people
find out and that's not the wayit's is.
Just encourage these guys andget them some actual training.
There's another guy out there.
You might reach out to WilliamYoung.
He's out in Nebraska and hedoes a lot with officer wellness
(18:30):
and check out his stuff.
He says that we're trained tobe the way we are from the time
we walk in the academy andthere's a lot of truth to that.
You know you're propped up tothat.
You know you're you're proppedup to be this person here.
You know, and you you can'tever let that down and we're not
(18:50):
trained how to let that down.
We're trained to deescalateeverybody else.
We're trained to calm and uh,you know, minimize violence
inside the prison, but nobodyteaches us how to do that inside
ourselves.
Nobody teaches us how to dealwith these feelings that that
come up every day lack of trust,that type of stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So so it's hard to understand for somebody like
myself, a regular person on thestreet.
Right, we never go into thekind of that high stress
environment, but you know, butin listening to one of your
shows you had a guest on thoughthat was talking about like
visiting Belize, right, yeah,and we know that there's some
programs where you have officersgoing to countries like Norway
(19:34):
and Germany and stuff like that.
So one of the things I want toquestion okay, you have this
environment, this is what we'retaught here.
Right, we have this systemwe've set up here in the States,
that's, you know how we, how wedo things here.
So can you just kind of giveyou a sense of like, well, what
are these things going on toBelize?
(19:54):
Do you think that some of thethings you learn there can be
applied here?
You know, how?
How does that fit into theconversation of what's going on
behind the scenes of people likeyourself, you know, going
outside of the United States totake a look at how other people
are doing things?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, jared Sadulsky who was on there, and it's an
amazing story down there and Ithink when you dig into that,
what you find is a lot of caring, a lot of religion.
You know not only that they doTED talks over the speakers for
the inmates, but they keep theinmates engaged all day long in
(20:33):
self-improvement.
Now here's what, once again,where we have to and this is
what our country is so bad aboutwhen we have these
conversations down there, youhave inmates who are mostly
drugs okay, and they are tryingto find ways for them to
rehabilitate, to stay out, tohave another life besides drugs,
(20:55):
because once you get in there,it's just self, you know, it
just builds on itself.
Those are one sort of inmates.
The other sort of inmates arethe violent inmates who don't
want to rehabilitate, and wekeep getting those mixed up when
we have those discussions aboutwhat's going on in Belize.
Those are inmates who havenothing.
So if you give them something,even if it's a little hope, even
(21:18):
if it's a skill, they're morewilling to grab a hold of it.
If you go over to the Norwaymodel, which I love, everybody
throws this out.
The last director of the Bureauof Prisons was big about talking
about the Norway model.
I challenge anybody to bring 50Norwegian correctional officers
over here and let them run ourprison, because I'll go sit in
their prison all day long.
They don't have the level ofinmates we have.
(21:41):
They don't have the history ofviolence that we have in this
country and you can look, ourcountry was founded on violence.
We're just a violent people.
We're not going to sit down anddo art projects in an apartment
when we go to prison.
It's just not going to happen.
These are people who have beenraised up, some of them in some
of the most horrible conditionsand inner cities, been in gangs.
(22:04):
I've talked to them.
We've been in gangs since theywere seven, eight years old, and
now you expect them to do anart project here.
Let me make a potholder.
That doesn't work for some ofthe inmates we've got, and we've
got to split up this discussionabout inmates.
We've got violent inmates whoneed to be managed one way, and
(22:25):
then we've got inmates who aregoing to be our neighbors and
need to be managed another way.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Well, I think you get to the core of why we want to
do series like this and startadvancing the conversation right
and to our listeners, I think,who appreciate the stories and
the coverage we've done in otherareas, is like you see this
narrative and then okay, okay,suddenly it comes out in the
public.
It's like, oh, we've been doingit all wrong, we should do what
norway does right.
(22:49):
Or you say, oh, this is thisright and like that's the point,
is like nothing.
So the the reality,everything's a lot more.
It's not as black and white,right and and sure, there may be
things we can learn, but, justlike you know a lot of the
things ivpPs covered, electionreform is different from state
to state, locality to localitybecause of the circumstances,
(23:12):
correctional, you know prisonreform and you know things
related to correctional officersand the prisoners are going to
be fundamentally different.
You know in California, missouri, belize and Norway different.
You know in California,missouri, belize and Norway, and
so, but what are the?
You know?
Is there something that we cantake away that can help advance
the public policy conversationabout prison reform?
(23:35):
If there was something that waslike, hey, I wish people
understood maybe you alreadycovered it, but something I
really wish people understoodthat.
So, whether it's a legislatorgoing into a hearing about, you
know, the next correctionalofficer bill or union contract
or whatever it is that, hey, ifI could fix the misconception
(23:56):
here, right, whatever othermisconceptions still exist, this
would help advance our goals ofgood policy that has nothing to
do with partisanship, hasnothing to do with anything
other than having improvingsociety outside and inside the
walls of prison.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Sure, let me start with.
There's two sides to it.
One is fixing what's going onwith correctional officers, and
COVID and short staffing did doone of those, which is it
brought up pay, and our pay hascome up in many areas which was
needed.
The thing that hasn't increasedis training.
You've got to give theseofficers the skills and I'm
(24:36):
talking not just leadershiptraining.
There's a difference betweenhard skills and soft skills,
right, and the hard skills,which is firearms, which is less
lethal, that type of stuff.
We train them at that.
What we don't train them on issoft skills, and I'll talk,
before we get done, about a bookI've just it'll come out next
week called power skills.
And this is what I believe,because we need to be able to
(24:58):
have staff who can talk toinmates, who can deescalate to
inmates who can deescalate, whocan self-regulate their own
emotions, who are empathetic andcan have appropriate
relationships, because we dohave a relationship with inmates
on the inside.
Now, people will see that wordand they go oh my God, but it's
like having a relationship withanybody else at work.
(25:19):
Here's the line, here's what wecan do, here's how I can help
you, and so we have that.
We need to teach those socialskills.
We need to teach EQ to thoseofficers.
We need to give them the littletips and tricks and things that
it takes to be able tocommunicate, because it was
tough for me.
I came from the country and Igot thrown in a prison full of
(25:42):
gang members from downtown StLouis and Kansas City.
We didn't immediately speaktheir same language right, so I
had to learn all that.
I had to learn that stuff Onthe other side.
I'll tell you what I've seen.
That has worked and I think itneeds to be expanded.
I worked at a place calledOzark Correctional Center.
It turned into a drug treatmentcamp, but it was a work camp
(26:05):
and they would bring thoseinmates in.
They only had a couple of yearsleft in their sentence.
Every day we'd take them outand they worked at Tyson Foods,
rainbow Paint Company, all theseplaces with people, the regular
people in the society.
They got paid the same as thoseguys did.
A quarter of that went to thevictim's fund for the society.
(26:26):
They got paid the same as thoseguys did.
A quarter of that went to thevictim's fund for the state.
A quarter of it went to whatthey called housing and busing,
which was paid for the guy thattook them to work.
A quarter of it went on acommissary account and a quarter
of it went in a savings account.
Now let me tell you, when Iworked at Missouri State Pen, I
saw them take a guy who had 30years in, walk him out the front
door.
He's released and they gave hima check for $3.45 and said
(26:49):
don't come back.
What do you think's going tohappen there?
They didn't give him any skills.
He doesn't have any money.
He's going to go back to whathe knows when.
At Ozark Correctional Center Isaw these guys who they would go
out of there with $15,000,$20,000.
And this was 20 years ago thatthey had saved up over a couple
of years.
You can buy a small car.
You can pay the first month'swater deposit.
(27:13):
You can pay first and lastmonth's rent.
You can move to a differentneighborhood.
You don't have to go live inyour mom's house where all your
buddies that got you into drugsstill live.
Those were the things that I sawwork.
Those guys didn't come back.
Some of them went back to workat the same company on Monday as
a supervisor.
We'd let them out on Friday andthey'd hire them back.
(27:33):
They were such good workers.
So there's stuff like that outthere all across the country.
It's not just what I saw inMissouri.
You give them an opportunity, atrue opportunity.
You know it's not enough to sayhere's how you fill out a check
, here's what a checkbook wouldlook like If you ain't got no
money.
You know it doesn't help.
(27:56):
So give them the opportunities.
Put them back to work is one ofthe things that this country
needs, because I absolutely hateseeing the level of money that
we spend for people to sitinside cells.
And I know there's this wholeargument about well, it's slave
labor.
No, it's not.
It's paying back the publictaxpayer for what you're costing
(28:18):
.
We should be putting them.
There should be a piece oftrash anywhere on any highway in
the United States.
And it doesn't mean we don'tpay them.
We can pay them and give themsomething to learn some work
ethic and to have some moneywhen they walk out the door.
That's what everybody needs,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, well, I think that that last quote you just
said, I mean there shouldn't bea piece of trash in the street.
You think about that and thenconnect it back to prison,
popularity, and then the policy,the level of policy discussion
we have outside of oh, is thisslave labor or is it not slave
labor?
Right, I understand some of thesentiments behind that, but
(29:00):
it's disconnected with reality,right, and so that's what we're
trying to grow.
I mean, I could talk to you,and I'm sure you could talk for
probably months about this stuff, and I know you have on your
podcast, so, in kind of closingit out, so somebody listens to
this and they go wow, I want tolearn a lot more about this
stuff.
Where do they find you?
(29:20):
Who else should they belistening to?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
How can somebody become more educated about?
You know the real life behindthe walls of prison?
Sure sure you know there's kindof a little group of us that
has, you know, gained whateverpopularity in the last few years
.
Of course myself, you can findme at wwwtheprisonofficerpodcast
.
There's also a former FloridaDOC guy and his name is Gary
York.
He's got a podcast on YouTube.
Anthony Ganji's out of NewJersey and he's got several
things on YouTube and a fewbooks.
(29:51):
And then William Young out ofNebraska and he's got a couple
of books and he focuses reallyon wellness.
But he's quite a character.
I love his podcast too.
He brings a whole level ofenergy to it that some of the
others don't.
But you know, that's all outthere.
For the correctional officersthat are listening, I would like
to say May 26th, power Skillsfor Correctional Officers and
(30:15):
Emergency Responders and Beyondcomes out, and Power Skills is
strictly talking about EQ andthe social skills and how that
makes you a better officer,strictly talking about EQ and
the social skills and how thatmakes you a better officer.
If you can learn how to talk,if you can learn how to listen,
you've got power skills, and sothat'll be coming out if anybody
wants to look that up on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
We'll have to drop a promo to power skills and,
michael, I very much appreciateyou coming on.
There's no possible way wecould educate ourselves as much
as somebody who's lived the lifeand then has dedicated his I
should say lack of retirement tostaying engaged and improving
the system, so I want to thankyou Again.
(30:56):
you're listening to theIndependent Voter Podcast.
This is our special series onhow it really works healthcare
behind bars.
Michael Cantrell.
Thank you so much.
I hope we stay in touch andhave an opportunity to continue
the discussion with you.
Anytime I'd be happy to comeback.
Thank you much and to theaudience, later this summer
we're going to publish the fullseries how it Really Works at
(31:19):
IVNus to our listeners.
I hope you visit IVNus andcheck out the full series where
we dive deeper into these issuesof health care behind bars.
You know, just this is oneissue.
We talk about the justicesystem.
We talk about prison reform.
If we really want to havereform, we need to understand
(31:40):
how it really works.
O-Lost Media.
Welcome to the IndependentVoter Podcast.
From Independent Voter Project.
We're going to expand a littlebit a new era of independent
voter news that the journalistsjust don't cover.
It's where we have thesedebates on a national level,
really taking on issues so thatpeople have more educated
disagreements with each othereducated disagreements with each
(00:28):
other.
Let's just explain how theprocess really works.
Welcome back to the IndependentVoter Project, where we try to
unpack some of the complexitiesthat often get oversimplified in
our public policy discussion.
This podcast is part of our howit Really Works series.
We're talking in this seriesabout health care behind bars,
(00:50):
and today we're going to focuson really the health care and
the life behind bars ofcorrectional officers, the
people we expect to take care ofthe prison system and are the
caretakers behind bars but arefacing a mental health trauma,
burnout and some serious issuesthat really don't just go
(01:13):
under-discussed.
They go undiscussed in ourpublic policy conversation, and
with that I'm bringing on ourspecial guest, michael Contro.
Mike, I want to thank you foryour work first of all, and
thank you for being here.
As I think we've heard, the jobof a correctional officer is
both dangerous and emotionallyisolating and deeply
(01:34):
misunderstood.
I want you to thank you forcoming here, educating us and
the work that you continue to dofor others and getting them
prepared to be correctionalofficers and improve as
correctional officers.
So my guest today, michaelCantrell, has a life served
behind bars, not because he didanything wrong, but because he
(01:56):
wanted to, you know, serve thepublic.
And from that perspective, youknow, and now retired, has his
own podcast, has written severalbooks, has been a mentor for
folks who want to get into thecorrectional officer system.
But we brought him on to talkabout some of the realities,
(02:16):
some of it good, some of it bad.
Right, it's a reality that youknow if you're going to have a
prison system and you're goingto contain some of the bad
things that go on in society,you have to have public servants
there that are going to overseeand be the caretakers for the
(02:36):
whole, the entire system.
So you know, with that, michael, why don't you introduce
yourself?
Give a little bit of yourbackground and your credentials
in speaking to this importantissue?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
My name is Michael Cantrell.
I started in corrections in1992.
And to tell you how old I am,the place I started is now a
museum so you can go visit it ifyou want.
I started at Missouri State Pen.
I spent about nine years withthe Missouri Department of
(03:09):
Corrections.
I had the opportunity to go tothe Federal Bureau of Prisons.
I'd spend the next 21 and ahalf years there, multiple
penitentiaries, multiple areasand retired out of Washington DC
as the chief of the Office ofEmergency Preparedness.
Since then, like you said, Ihave a podcast.
(03:29):
I've written a couple of booksand I still teach for a couple
of companies.
So I still get to seecorrectional officers and law
enforcement every week forcommand presence or pepper ball,
which are the two companies,the main companies I teach for.
So I'm still out there.
I'm still.
I say I retired, but I also sayI'm failing retirement horribly
(03:51):
.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well.
So I guess on that point you'refailing.
Why are you failing retirement?
Why are you doing this right?
You know you got your wife, yougot your nice.
I believe you got a nice.
You know nice farm and animalsand all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So why are you failing so bad at retiring?
Because there's such a need.
There's such a need out therefor corrections is just hungry
for good training.
I know that the publicperception is that we get as
much training as law enforcementofficers.
That's an absolute fallacy.
Some correctional officers getas little as a week or two
training before they get throwninside working and then getting
(04:32):
into good quality training afterthat is tough, because the
money that we spend in prisons alarge portion of it is salaries
.
Absolutely Any budget that youlook at, that's going to be it,
but the rest of it goes to theinmate needs.
Training is always overlookedand it's the thing they need the
most.
You know, today they're talkingabout retention, recruitment.
(04:54):
I believe that the reason wedon't have good retention is
because our staff don't feellike they're trained.
They don't feel like they'reknowledgeable.
They don't feel like they'resafe when they're inside.
Somebody who's confident andhas the tools to do something
can face almost anything, but ifyou're having to wonder whether
or not I can do this, or youknow if I should do this, you're
(05:17):
going to be hesitant when thetime comes.
So I love getting out there.
I love seeing these peopleamazing people work hidden
behind those walls and fences,and not only our prisons, but
our jails, our detention centers, private prisons.
It's not just what some peoplethink you know as a state prison
(05:38):
.
There's a whole bunch of peoplewho are out there working.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
And I mean, when we set out to do this episode, we
knew there was a lot of you knowissues that were uncovered and
we didn't know exactly.
You know everything that wewere, you know, going to write
about until we did the research.
One of the things we found, forexample, in California I know
you know you're out in Missouri,but in California we spend $4
(06:04):
billion on health care, right,and we know that nationally,
like, there's a constitutionalstandard, we have to provide
adequate health care forprisoners and stuff.
And so I'm going back to yourpoint.
Right, you have correctionalofficers that come into the
system, come, sometimes gettingtwo, three weeks training, and
we think, okay, well, trainingon how to, you know, maintain
(06:24):
the prison population, keep themunder control.
But you know, what is yourexperience been with?
Like OK, or a medic, but has todeal with the realities of
(06:47):
day-to-day taking care of thehealth of the prison population.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Sure, and that is part of what we do.
I mean, that's part of ourcharge.
We do it at a level.
Some people have never had thelevel of healthcare they get
once they go into prison.
But one thing I want to makenote of before I talk more about
that is that the publicperception of prison is what
they get out of TV and media.
There's many different levels ofinmates.
(07:15):
Okay, you've got inmates downhere that have done something
wrong.
They made a mistake, they'regoing to be back out.
They need, you know, they needskills, they need stuff like
that so that they can becomeproductive.
You've got another level ofinmate who is never going to be
productive in society.
They don't want to draw SocialSecurity, they don't want
retirement, they want to livethis thug life that they've
(07:37):
built and that they've grown uparound or whatever, and they're
never going to come back intosociety the way a lot of the
public thinks.
So Inside all that, we've gotmultiple levels.
We've got a huge amount ofmental health inmates, because
we have no place to put ourmental health in this prison or
in this country.
They're either in our hospitalsor they're in our prisons.
(08:00):
The other thing we have is mostof the people who live this
hard lifestyle have ruined theirbodies, and I spent 14 years at
the Federal Medical Center inSpringfield, missouri, and you
know you've got Hells Angelsbikers who are now missing two
legs.
You know they may not be asphysically as much of a problem,
(08:21):
but they still are violent,they still are criminal, they
still have a criminal mindset.
Another thing that people don'trealize about the Federal
Medical Center is how big thedialysis unit is.
The number of people who'veruined their livers and kidneys
by the time we get them and thisis a huge cost to the United
(08:41):
States is to keep these peoplenot only incarcerated, which is
a certain level of money that wespend.
You talked about California.
The Federal Bureau of Prisonsspends eight.
Their last budget was 8.3billion for fewer inmates.
So you've got these guys whohave these medical issues, and
(09:02):
then, on top of that, we have toprovide the security, because
they're also criminal, and sothat's a thing that they don't
ever show on TV.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Well, I mean, that's just some of the misconceptions
of the prisoners themselves,right and like, even so, that
there's a lot of misconceptionsto break up there.
And when you're talkingdirectly about the prisoners,
but going back to thecorrectional officers themselves
, what do you find is thebiggest misconception?
I mean, you live, right, youlived your life as a
correctional officer, right, youcan, you know, you have the
(09:35):
reputation out there of who acorrectional officer is.
So I guess, from yourperspective somebody who's lived
it what is the biggestmisconception and one
misconception you'd like toclear up?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, I've mentioned this before but it's such a good
analogy.
There is no one correctionalofficer, just like there's no
one inmate.
People ask me well, movie andTV, what's the most like real
life?
And I always go to Green Mile,even though that's a fantasy
movie if you look at the mainofficers in there.
Tom Hanks, that good, solid guy, comes to work every day, does
(10:06):
his job the way he's supposed to, he cares about people.
You got the big guy bull behindhim.
You know he's the good, strongguy, but he keeps his mouth shut
and he only deals with stuffwhen he has to.
You got the old man who'sworried about retirement and
policy right, and then they showthe rookie.
And the rookie in that movie isportrayed brilliantly because
he's always looking up to theother three, seeing what they do
(10:28):
and how they've made it throughthis career.
And then, off to the side, youhave Percy.
And yes, we do have Percy's,but we're judged by this couple
of percent of staff who arePercy's.
And I don't care whether you'rea lawyer, a doctor, a nurse,
whatever you are, all of youhave that type of employee there
.
The problem is when.
(10:48):
When that type of employeescrews up in my job.
People get hurt, people escapepeople uh, you know, get
excessive use of force, thattype of stuff.
Uh, it's not most of us, it'sjust a couple of us.
The rest of the people in hereare the coaches.
They're at your church, they'reyou know, they're great leaders
.
We learn leadership inside ourprisons because we lead people.
(11:12):
So when we go out in thecommunity we're often the t-ball
coach, we're often leading, youknow, the church study on
Sunday.
We're doing that kind of stuffbecause we're the leaders, not
only inside, but we're theleaders in the community.
But we don't talk about itbecause people have this twisted
view of what I do inside that Iwalk in there with a baseball
(11:36):
bat and just start whackingpeople.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right.
The public, at least what I'vegrown up, you know watching TV
and you know you see shows likeLocked Up or that and like
that's that's the averageperson's exposure to it.
Right Is kind of this roughedge.
One of the things that justblew my mind in doing this
research was a was a statisticthat came out that almost 30
percent of correctional officersare suffering from something
(12:02):
really close to PTSD, if notPTSD Right, which is at a level
of combat veterans andeverything.
So how, knowing thatcorrectional is right their moms
, their dads, their brothers,their sisters, their t-ball
coaches right and then you goand you look at a stat like that
from someone who lived theirlife in the system.
You know what is your take onthat.
(12:24):
How do we deal with it?
What does the public need toknow, because that's a crisis
level, and what do we have to doto deal with a crisis like that
?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Sure, and there's different levels of PTSD.
What we tend to see incorrections now there could be a
riot, there could be thatincident that causes PTSD.
But it's the cumulative PTSD.
It's the day in and day outmanipulation.
It's the day in and day outviolence.
It's the day in and day outself-mutilation that we see
(12:53):
amongst the inmates.
It's that type of stuff thatmake those little mind scars
that over a career you know youhave developed not only this,
this, um, how it's?
You don't look at the humanrace like you did 30 years ago.
Right, you've been.
You've had people try tomanipulate you every single day
(13:14):
of your career.
You've had people try tomanipulate you every single day
of your career.
You've had people violent infront of you most of your career
.
So you become very tough.
You push people away and we getto where we don't trust people
because we're manipulated somuch.
That was the hardest thing forme.
The violence I could handle,that didn't bother me as much,
(13:37):
but the the constantmanipulation to where you
couldn't trust anybody.
And then you end up lookingaround and and and you don't
trust the people that areoutside and the people that are
around you and you start hangingout with just the people that
you know.
Um, one of the things I talkabout in my classes.
(13:57):
You know, when we're inside andyou get involved in the use of
force, you're on the bottom ofthat pile and you hit your body
alarm.
Here comes these 12 otherofficers and the sound of
running boots is just, I mean,it's unbelievable.
They're there to rescue you.
It's a level of love that mostpeople don't ever get to
experience, because they'rethere to rescue you and this
(14:17):
will happen many times during acareer.
And then you get outside andyou go home and your wife has
saved supper in the refrigeratorand that level of love doesn't
seem the same.
You know, it's not as strong,it's not as immediate and it
distorts our reality, becausemost people would look at that
(14:38):
and go, oh wow, she thoughtabout me, she took care of you
know, made sure I had somethingto eat when I got home.
But for us, we get this.
You know it's just twisted viewof love, of people, of trust,
and the main thing we can do istalk about it Quit.
You know every agency and somepeople aren't going to like that
(15:01):
I say this, but every agencyhas an employee assistance
program For most people, formost officers, that's being ran
by how do I say this nicely by apsychologist who has no idea
what we go through.
She's not in the trenches withus.
They're not in the T whatever.
(15:23):
They're not in the trencheswith us.
They don't understand it.
They want to talk pretty andexpect us to fall into that.
Well, that doesn't work for us.
We don't see pretty the sameway other people do.
I don't get to go home at 5o'clock.
I've worked for 16 hour shiftsin a row.
Twice in my career.
I worked more than 24 hours ina row.
(15:43):
And you're in a place whereyour situational awareness has
to be um, you know here, and youcan't see anything in front of
you except for the Mountain Dewthat's trying to keep you awake
and uh, so it's just.
It's a whole messed up world.
(16:03):
It's not normal and we live inthere.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
We exist in there and we make it somehow.
Well, yet you're an advocatefor correctional officers and
helping folks becomecorrectional officers, right?
So there's got to be somethingthat draws you to it.
So you know what.
What is it that keeps drawingyou to it and what are the types
of things that you're lookingat in order to fix?
You know some of those problems, like you know, we we saw 63
(16:27):
percent, based on one studyDon't even they don't.
They don't seek the servicesthat are provided to them.
You know, for one reason orother, maybe they perceive the
psychiatrist is going to be outof touch with them, maybe it's
another reason, but you knowwhat is it that draws you into
it?
Try to improve the system andhow do you see addressing some
(16:47):
of those problems?
Like you know, you got seriousmental health issues, but maybe
we either don't, officers don'ttake it, or you know it's, it's
just not adequate, right?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Everybody's got their own opinion.
I did.
I spent some time talking to aprofessor who did some study on
this and they asked me what Ithought about it and what I saw.
I'm a leader inside there.
I'm trying to get through theday.
I'm trying to promote, I'mtrying to become a lieutenant or
a captain or whatever.
The minute I go into EAP peoplestart looking at you like well,
(17:25):
if you can't take care of yourlife at home, how are you going
to be in charge here when theshit hits the fan?
And so we avoid it.
I'm not going to put myself ina position in front of other
staff or inmates to, because inour job that's taken advantage
of.
Um, if we show a weakness, ifthere's a chink in the armor,
(17:47):
somebody will stick a kniferight in that chink, you know.
So you can't ever let yourarmor down.
And until we move some of thisoutside of work, where it's not
being seen, whereconfidentiality actually happens
, which in the agencies, I'veseen that has caused a lot of
(18:08):
problems because people go lookfor help and then other people
find out and that's not the wayit's is.
Just encourage these guys andget them some actual training.
There's another guy out there.
You might reach out to WilliamYoung.
He's out in Nebraska and hedoes a lot with officer wellness
(18:30):
and check out his stuff.
He says that we're trained tobe the way we are from the time
we walk in the academy andthere's a lot of truth to that.
You know you're propped up tothat.
You know you're you're proppedup to be this person here.
You know, and you you can'tever let that down and we're not
(18:50):
trained how to let that down.
We're trained to deescalateeverybody else.
We're trained to calm and uh,you know, minimize violence
inside the prison, but nobodyteaches us how to do that inside
ourselves.
Nobody teaches us how to dealwith these feelings that that
come up every day lack of trust,that type of stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So so it's hard to understand for somebody like
myself, a regular person on thestreet.
Right, we never go into thekind of that high stress
environment, but you know, butin listening to one of your
shows you had a guest on thoughthat was talking about like
visiting Belize, right, yeah,and we know that there's some
programs where you have officersgoing to countries like Norway
(19:34):
and Germany and stuff like that.
So one of the things I want toquestion okay, you have this
environment, this is what we'retaught here.
Right, we have this systemwe've set up here in the States,
that's, you know how we, how wedo things here.
So can you just kind of giveyou a sense of like, well, what
are these things going on toBelize?
(19:54):
Do you think that some of thethings you learn there can be
applied here?
You know, how?
How does that fit into theconversation of what's going on
behind the scenes of people likeyourself, you know, going
outside of the United States totake a look at how other people
are doing things?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, jared Sadulsky who was on there, and it's an
amazing story down there and Ithink when you dig into that,
what you find is a lot of caring, a lot of religion.
You know not only that they doTED talks over the speakers for
the inmates, but they keep theinmates engaged all day long in
(20:33):
self-improvement.
Now here's what, once again,where we have to and this is
what our country is so bad aboutwhen we have these
conversations down there, youhave inmates who are mostly
drugs okay, and they are tryingto find ways for them to
rehabilitate, to stay out, tohave another life besides drugs,
(20:55):
because once you get in there,it's just self, you know, it
just builds on itself.
Those are one sort of inmates.
The other sort of inmates arethe violent inmates who don't
want to rehabilitate, and wekeep getting those mixed up when
we have those discussions aboutwhat's going on in Belize.
Those are inmates who havenothing.
So if you give them something,even if it's a little hope, even
(21:18):
if it's a skill, they're morewilling to grab a hold of it.
If you go over to the Norwaymodel, which I love, everybody
throws this out.
The last director of the Bureauof Prisons was big about talking
about the Norway model.
I challenge anybody to bring 50Norwegian correctional officers
over here and let them run ourprison, because I'll go sit in
their prison all day long.
They don't have the level ofinmates we have.
(21:41):
They don't have the history ofviolence that we have in this
country and you can look, ourcountry was founded on violence.
We're just a violent people.
We're not going to sit down anddo art projects in an apartment
when we go to prison.
It's just not going to happen.
These are people who have beenraised up, some of them in some
of the most horrible conditionsand inner cities, been in gangs.
(22:04):
I've talked to them.
We've been in gangs since theywere seven, eight years old, and
now you expect them to do anart project here.
Let me make a potholder.
That doesn't work for some ofthe inmates we've got, and we've
got to split up this discussionabout inmates.
We've got violent inmates whoneed to be managed one way, and
(22:25):
then we've got inmates who aregoing to be our neighbors and
need to be managed another way.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Well, I think you get to the core of why we want to
do series like this and startadvancing the conversation right
and to our listeners, I think,who appreciate the stories and
the coverage we've done in otherareas, is like you see this
narrative and then okay, okay,suddenly it comes out in the
public.
It's like, oh, we've been doingit all wrong, we should do what
norway does right.
(22:49):
Or you say, oh, this is thisright and like that's the point,
is like nothing.
So the the reality,everything's a lot more.
It's not as black and white,right and and sure, there may be
things we can learn, but, justlike you know a lot of the
things ivpPs covered, electionreform is different from state
to state, locality to localitybecause of the circumstances,
(23:12):
correctional, you know prisonreform and you know things
related to correctional officersand the prisoners are going to
be fundamentally different.
You know in California, missouri, belize and Norway different.
You know in California,missouri, belize and Norway, and
so, but what are the?
You know?
Is there something that we cantake away that can help advance
the public policy conversationabout prison reform?
(23:35):
If there was something that waslike, hey, I wish people
understood maybe you alreadycovered it, but something I
really wish people understoodthat.
So, whether it's a legislatorgoing into a hearing about, you
know, the next correctionalofficer bill or union contract
or whatever it is that, hey, ifI could fix the misconception
(23:56):
here, right, whatever othermisconceptions still exist, this
would help advance our goals ofgood policy that has nothing to
do with partisanship, hasnothing to do with anything
other than having improvingsociety outside and inside the
walls of prison.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Sure, let me start with.
There's two sides to it.
One is fixing what's going onwith correctional officers, and
COVID and short staffing did doone of those, which is it
brought up pay, and our pay hascome up in many areas which was
needed.
The thing that hasn't increasedis training.
You've got to give theseofficers the skills and I'm
(24:36):
talking not just leadershiptraining.
There's a difference betweenhard skills and soft skills,
right, and the hard skills,which is firearms, which is less
lethal, that type of stuff.
We train them at that.
What we don't train them on issoft skills, and I'll talk,
before we get done, about a bookI've just it'll come out next
week called power skills.
And this is what I believe,because we need to be able to
(24:58):
have staff who can talk toinmates, who can deescalate to
inmates who can deescalate, whocan self-regulate their own
emotions, who are empathetic andcan have appropriate
relationships, because we dohave a relationship with inmates
on the inside.
Now, people will see that wordand they go oh my God, but it's
like having a relationship withanybody else at work.
(25:19):
Here's the line, here's what wecan do, here's how I can help
you, and so we have that.
We need to teach those socialskills.
We need to teach EQ to thoseofficers.
We need to give them the littletips and tricks and things that
it takes to be able tocommunicate, because it was
tough for me.
I came from the country and Igot thrown in a prison full of
(25:42):
gang members from downtown StLouis and Kansas City.
We didn't immediately speaktheir same language right, so I
had to learn all that.
I had to learn that stuff Onthe other side.
I'll tell you what I've seen.
That has worked and I think itneeds to be expanded.
I worked at a place calledOzark Correctional Center.
It turned into a drug treatmentcamp, but it was a work camp
(26:05):
and they would bring thoseinmates in.
They only had a couple of yearsleft in their sentence.
Every day we'd take them outand they worked at Tyson Foods,
rainbow Paint Company, all theseplaces with people, the regular
people in the society.
They got paid the same as thoseguys did.
A quarter of that went to thevictim's fund for the society.
(26:26):
They got paid the same as thoseguys did.
A quarter of that went to thevictim's fund for the state.
A quarter of it went to whatthey called housing and busing,
which was paid for the guy thattook them to work.
A quarter of it went on acommissary account and a quarter
of it went in a savings account.
Now let me tell you, when Iworked at Missouri State Pen, I
saw them take a guy who had 30years in, walk him out the front
door.
He's released and they gave hima check for $3.45 and said
(26:49):
don't come back.
What do you think's going tohappen there?
They didn't give him any skills.
He doesn't have any money.
He's going to go back to whathe knows when.
At Ozark Correctional Center Isaw these guys who they would go
out of there with $15,000,$20,000.
And this was 20 years ago thatthey had saved up over a couple
of years.
You can buy a small car.
You can pay the first month'swater deposit.
(27:13):
You can pay first and lastmonth's rent.
You can move to a differentneighborhood.
You don't have to go live inyour mom's house where all your
buddies that got you into drugsstill live.
Those were the things that I sawwork.
Those guys didn't come back.
Some of them went back to workat the same company on Monday as
a supervisor.
We'd let them out on Friday andthey'd hire them back.
(27:33):
They were such good workers.
So there's stuff like that outthere all across the country.
It's not just what I saw inMissouri.
You give them an opportunity, atrue opportunity.
You know it's not enough to sayhere's how you fill out a check
, here's what a checkbook wouldlook like If you ain't got no
money.
You know it doesn't help.
(27:56):
So give them the opportunities.
Put them back to work is one ofthe things that this country
needs, because I absolutely hateseeing the level of money that
we spend for people to sitinside cells.
And I know there's this wholeargument about well, it's slave
labor.
No, it's not.
It's paying back the publictaxpayer for what you're costing
(28:18):
.
We should be putting them.
There should be a piece oftrash anywhere on any highway in
the United States.
And it doesn't mean we don'tpay them.
We can pay them and give themsomething to learn some work
ethic and to have some moneywhen they walk out the door.
That's what everybody needs,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, well, I think that that last quote you just
said, I mean there shouldn't bea piece of trash in the street.
You think about that and thenconnect it back to prison,
popularity, and then the policy,the level of policy discussion
we have outside of oh, is thisslave labor or is it not slave
labor?
Right, I understand some of thesentiments behind that, but
(29:00):
it's disconnected with reality,right, and so that's what we're
trying to grow.
I mean, I could talk to you,and I'm sure you could talk for
probably months about this stuff, and I know you have on your
podcast, so, in kind of closingit out, so somebody listens to
this and they go wow, I want tolearn a lot more about this
stuff.
Where do they find you?
(29:20):
Who else should they belistening to?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
How can somebody become more educated about?
You know the real life behindthe walls of prison?
Sure sure you know there's kindof a little group of us that
has, you know, gained whateverpopularity in the last few years
.
Of course myself, you can findme at wwwtheprisonofficerpodcast
.
There's also a former FloridaDOC guy and his name is Gary
York.
He's got a podcast on YouTube.
Anthony Ganji's out of NewJersey and he's got several
things on YouTube and a fewbooks.
(29:51):
And then William Young out ofNebraska and he's got a couple
of books and he focuses reallyon wellness.
But he's quite a character.
I love his podcast too.
He brings a whole level ofenergy to it that some of the
others don't.
But you know, that's all outthere.
For the correctional officersthat are listening, I would like
to say May 26th, power Skillsfor Correctional Officers and
(30:15):
Emergency Responders and Beyondcomes out, and Power Skills is
strictly talking about EQ andthe social skills and how that
makes you a better officer,strictly talking about EQ and
the social skills and how thatmakes you a better officer.
If you can learn how to talk,if you can learn how to listen,
you've got power skills, and sothat'll be coming out if anybody
wants to look that up on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
We'll have to drop a promo to power skills and,
michael, I very much appreciateyou coming on.
There's no possible way wecould educate ourselves as much
as somebody who's lived the lifeand then has dedicated his I
should say lack of retirement tostaying engaged and improving
the system, so I want to thankyou Again.
(30:56):
you're listening to theIndependent Voter Podcast.
This is our special series onhow it really works healthcare
behind bars.
Michael Cantrell.
Thank you so much.
I hope we stay in touch andhave an opportunity to continue
the discussion with you.
Anytime I'd be happy to comeback.
Thank you much and to theaudience, later this summer
we're going to publish the fullseries how it Really Works at
(31:19):
IVNus to our listeners.
I hope you visit IVNus andcheck out the full series where
we dive deeper into these issuesof health care behind bars.
You know, just this is oneissue.
We talk about the justicesystem.
We talk about prison reform.
If we really want to havereform, we need to understand
(31:40):
how it really works.
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