July 18, 2024 • 47 mins
Tamara’s story is nothing short of extraordinary—a tale of survival, resilience, and the ultimate quest for joy beyond the shadows of a dark past. This week, we have the privilege of hearing from Tamara, a brave woman who escaped a cult over 25 years ago, along with her three children. Her journey from the grip of religious indoctrination and domestic violence to a life filled with self-expression and empowerment is a powerful testimony to human strength and the transformative power of therapy, especially EMDR. Tamara’s vibrant spirit and love for bright makeup and colors shine through as she reclaims her identity and finds beauty in everyday moments.
The harsh realities of domestic abuse and religious control underscore Tamara’s harrowing escape from a marriage filled with extreme violence. Her ex-husband’s threats and the church's perpetuation of a culture of silence and victim-blaming created a suffocating environment. It was her young son's heartbreaking declaration of his inability to protect her that catalyzed her decision to leave. This chapter of her life brings to light the critical role of therapy in healing trauma and the broader societal issues of isolation and shunning within cult-like communities. Our conversation dives deep into the impact of these experiences and the steps taken to break free and seek a new beginning.
Empowerment and community are central themes as we explore Tamara’s journey beyond her escape. She shares the triumphs of earning an associate degree and becoming the first female graduate in her religious community, symbolizing her breaking of generational cycles of abuse. Tamara’s reclamation of the stigmatized term "Jezebel" embodies her fight against imposed shame and the power of finding one's voice. Her story is a call to unity and allyship in the battle against patriarchy and marginalization. Join us as we celebrate Tamara's unyielding spirit and the transformative power of speaking authentically.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
Tamara and I had talked 20minutes off record.
I was like why the hell are wenot recording, because it was
such a great conversation.
But we connected for a bit.
We actually came across eachother through our mutual friend,
who you all know as Barb withthe Rebecca Girls a story that
(00:20):
we had covered, and so I am soglad you're here, thank you.
People ask me on the top of myDavid, you're a life coach.
You, your job is dealing withpeople's trauma.
You podcast and you're talkingabout trauma, like how are you
okay?
And I just simply learned howto enjoy the ride.
(00:44):
You know, we all have our shit.
We all have our things, and Ican cry about it and be mad at
it, or I can control it andlearn to enjoy it, and so that's
what I do, and so theseconversations inspire me.
So when people ask you that,when they're like you're
constantly talking about yourstory, like how are you not
depressed?
What is your response to that?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
There's more to my story than just my trauma.
There is life on the other sideof trauma and there is a
beautiful journey that's takenplace throughout the trauma that
has taught me so much aboutmyself, about the world I live
in and about other people worldI live in and about other people
(01:29):
, and I am determined to makesure that others know that the
trauma doesn't rule my life.
I want people to know that, nomatter what they go through,
there is another day and we canget through it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yes, I love that, before we get too deep into it
give us an introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I'm Tamara.
I've escaped a cult 25 plusyears ago now with my three
children and moved across thecountry, started life one day at
a time, one step at a time.
I am a mom of three beautifulgrown children and I have four
(02:10):
grandbabies, and one of my best,most thrilling things is that I
can look at my grandbabies andmy children and know that the
abuse stopped with me.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I love that because generational abuse is real.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, it is, Especially when you're in a high
controlled religion.
The boys are raised to abuse,the girls are raised to be
submissive.
So in order to not only stopthe abuse but make sure that it
never happens again can be afull-time job and is very
exhausting and overwhelming.
Again can be a full-time joband is very exhausting and
overwhelming, but I'm standingproud and tall today because I
(02:48):
was able to do this.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
And I know that most people only listen to my podcast
.
I do save the videos for somefuture projects and I do create
little tick talks from it.
But before we get into the deep, dark, heavy shed, I want to
say that I love your makeup, Ilove your style and you talk
(03:13):
with your hands, and so I'veseen some blue nails flashing
around.
I see the nose ring.
Once you left, the cult, thisorganization, this quote,
unquote church, whatever titlewe want to put to it.
Once you left, I'm sure therewas a process of you finding
yourself, and so are the brightmakeups and the bright colors,
(03:36):
which I love and they'restunning on you.
But is that a part ofexpressing yourself from
something that you did not getto do when you probably maybe
wanted to or didn't even knowyou wanted to like?
How did that play into yourlife?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I'm from South Florida, so the bright colors
just go along with me.
But the first thing I did whenI left and moved here to
Michigan I started therapypretty much right away and I
went to a female empoweringtherapist and she told me that
(04:11):
before I came back for my nextvisit I had to go get my nails
and my toes done.
And she asked for the week Iwant it done.
And when I came back the nextweek she looked at me and we
were going over in therapy.
I did it and she looked at meand she was like do you know why
I had to do this?
And I said I don't have a clue.
(04:33):
And my church voice still.
She said because when you are afemale, when you first wake up
in the morning, you don't lookat yourself in the mirror first.
The first thing is the extensionof yourself and that's your
hands.
When you see your hands done,pretty bright colors and all
(05:05):
ready to go, it instantly puts athought process in place for
the day that oh, these arepretty.
And even if you don't feelpretty on the inside and you
don't feel like you look prettyon the outside, you're always
going to look at your hands andsay that's pretty.
So since then and it's been 25years there's never been a week
that my fingers and toes aren'tdone, because she's absolutely
right.
The first thought I say in themorning was that's so pretty.
(05:26):
But yeah, now I do it justbecause of thrills.
And when someone says you can'tdo that because you're too old,
I was come back tomorrow andwatch it be done.
I go get the glitter and I goget the makeup and I say there
is no age to having fun makeup,and I say there is no age to
(05:49):
having fun what I say as a truecompliment.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
But when we were first logging in and I actually
got to see you because I've justseen you really through
pictures when so when I actuallygot to see you on zoom, I
immediately went to Tanya Tuckerand I love, love Tanya Tucker.
She is a powerhouse, she is astrong-willed woman.
She gets shit done.
And then, as I started talkingto you, I was like she is one of
(06:14):
those.
She's one of those women thatjust knows how to get stuff done
.
Like I love the hair, I lovethe makeup, I love the style, I
love the nails.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It is very Tanya tucker vibes for me my red hair
is the tiktok filter trend rightnow.
I went out and got red and putit in and I was like it's nice.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm usually bleach blonde, but this is a tiktok
trend start wherever you wantthere, but tell us what trauma
means to you, when it startedfor you and what it consisted of
.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Because I was raised in an apostolic Pentecostal
church, which is ahigh-controlled religion.
I don't even refer to itusually as a church.
My church was a cult.
I was in Michigan, sitting inpsychology class at about 27, 28
years old when I realized thatwhat had happened to me all
(07:09):
those years was illegal, notonly wrong.
I was 28 years old Because whenyou're raised in it from birth
and it's everyday life, youdon't know what's right or wrong
.
You only know what you're toldis right or wrong and if
(07:31):
everybody is approving it,you're just a little girl.
You don't know that whathappened to you, starting at the
age of four, was wrong andillegal, to the point that when
I left the high control church,I left because of domestic
violence.
That's how unprepared for theworld I was.
(07:52):
I didn't even say that what myfather had done to me was
illegal and wrong.
I only knew what my husband wasdoing to me was wrong and I was
away from the church for twoyears, sitting in a psychology
class, and when my professor wastalking about sexual abuse
(08:14):
being illegal, I had a completemeltdown in the classroom.
Oh my God, it was like anepiphany.
I can't believe.
I didn't know this, but youdon't know what you don't know.
I didn't have newspapers, weweren't allowed to have friends
outside the church.
There was no computers, notelephones, no radios, no
(08:40):
anything to get that informationto me.
So how do you get informationto a high-controlled religion
when nobody in that religion isoutside the four walls of that
church and you only associatewith everybody inside that
religion?
You're not going to get to thelittle girls and the little boys
(09:00):
even through school, becausethey remove them from class.
Because if you're going to talkabout sex education you have to
send permission slips home.
We were exempt.
Current affairs we were exempt.
We got a letter from ourminister.
I could read a book, but thenthat book had to be approved by
(09:22):
my father and the pastor beforewe could read the book for book
reports.
So I was reading books by LouisMay Alcott from the time I was
six years old, because those arethe kind of books I was allowed
to read and do a book report on.
So if you have no outsideinformation, you're not allowed
(09:43):
to go to the police.
So if you have no outsideinformation, you're not allowed
(10:11):
to go to the police.
Nobody was allowed to go to DHSDepartment of Human Services
for.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Medicaid for food stamps.
It wasn't allowed Everybody.
Then the realization kicked inof what I was raised in we're
only as good as our leaders.
So if our leaders are sayingyou deserve this, shut up and
listen to me.
That's what you do.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Exactly, and you have to understand that women
weren't allowed to work outsidethe home.
We were taught not to look at aman straight in the eyes.
We were taught as females tolower our heads and not give
direct eye contact ever toauthority.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I want the picture to be painted.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
How recent is that you're referring to?
What they do tell people is whenwe have company, and when it
was just us the church people orthe people who were regulars
then he would teach how hewanted to teach and say what he
wanted to say.
So he was a very cautious andfiltered man and very
(11:19):
calculating and, as a matter offact, last week I went through
YouTube and his picture came upmy old pastor and they've
started uploading his sermons onYouTube.
I haven't listened to him in 25plus years and I was like, ok,
(11:39):
I have to do this, I have to dothis.
And when I turned that sermonon thinking about me sitting in
the pew as a little girl versusme now as a strong, independent
female that can critically thinkwhich, by the way, I had to
teach myself how to do that,because they take that from you
(11:59):
I was shocked at how my headkept shaking going.
I can't believe this is what isbeing taught, this is what's
being said, this is how thesethings are just completely over
and over again happening,because it's never stopped, it's
still going on.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
And what is so interesting, because it's the
lack of the better word.
But looking back on it, isthere that part of you that is
like how did I ever believe thisshit?
And then that other part of youis I know exactly why and how I
believe this.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Absolutely.
It's like, how did I stay thatlong?
And the other part of me islike how do I not stay?
I was not marketable.
I'd never worked outside thehome.
I had three little babies andone was deathly ill, born with
an IgG immune deficiency,subclass two and four.
(12:59):
So we got IV infusions everysix weeks.
What was I going to do?
Where was I going to go?
I didn't have anything to evenwork at Walgreens or work at
Walmart or work at CVS.
I had no skills whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And this was all part of their master plan, right.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Absolutely, absolutely, all part of their
master plan right?
That's how?
Absolutely absolutely, becauseif they can control the women,
they can control everything.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And isn't it funny how, if they can control women,
they can control everything.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
However, in their eyes, women are less than it's
insane, but I'm going to tellyou, behind every cult leader is
a woman that's poking him on.
The women of our churches todayare the most zealot, the most
(14:01):
obnoxious, the mean, cruel andfull of hatred, and they push
their agendas.
In almost every church I'veever been, if you tell me where
the clique of the women are, I'mgoing to tell you that's the
theme of that church, and I'venot been wrong yet.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Would you mind giving us an idea of the types of
trauma that you and children andother women in your same
situation have went through andare to this day as we're airing
this or recording this?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
podcast.
I know for a fact that mysexual abuse started at four
years old.
When it started.
That's my first memory and I'veoften said children were
remembering making snowmen andplaying in the ocean and
building sandcastles.
My first memory was beingsexually abused by my father.
(15:05):
And not only me, but there was20 other girls in the church I
was raised in that also weresexually abused.
Now I'm one of the few thatactually walked away from it.
Most have decided to forgiveand forget.
Let it go under the blood, notthis girl.
(15:27):
Then there was domesticviolence.
The church grooms you to be inan abusive relationship.
The domestic violence washorrific.
My children were.
He tried to kill my babies.
He booby-trapped the house withguns that the SWAT team had to
(15:50):
come in and disarmed.
The reason why I finally leftwas because my four-year-old son
came up to me and handed me thekeys and looked at me and said
Mama, I can't protect youanymore.
That snapped something in me.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
He was four.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
He was four.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So when he should be having memories of the beach and
the sand and everything thatyou just said that you did not
get Right, you then realize thatnow my children are not either.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Exactly, and that's what made me pack my babies and
walk away.
I'm not sure what gave me thestrength to do it, but the abuse
was horrific.
He proceeded to tell a judgethat he was allowed to rape me
(16:42):
because I was his property.
And the judge looked at him andsaid you do not have counsel.
I have to advise you to stopbecause you're incriminating
yourself.
He said I can't incriminatemyself, I have God on my side.
The only person I had in thecourtroom supporting me was a
(17:03):
victim rights person and aperson from the domestic
violence shelter, so one sat onone side of me and the other one
sat on the other side of me andI just sat there, shaking from
head to toe, knowing that he hasraped me before and it's not
(17:23):
going to stop.
He told the judge this piece ofpaper will not keep her
protected.
She's my property and that'swhat the men in that church
believe.
That's how they're taught.
I can't tell you how many timesI've been told growing up that
all men have tempers.
It's the woman's job to makesure they're doing what they're
(17:45):
supposed to be doing as a godlywoman and a good wife to help
make sure that those thingsdon't happen.
And then the beatings.
The young boys don't getspanking, we get beat to where
we're bloody and then they poursalt in it.
(18:06):
Just the amount of beatingsthat you get will put any little
child into submission, Justbecause you don't want that
anymore.
And of course they think sparethe rod, you spoil the child.
So they're bound and determinedto make sure they're not
spoiling a child.
When I think back of all thetimes that abuse happened and I
(18:30):
tell you that I can't evennumber the amount of incidences,
that's how many there were.
And it still happens.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Did your children go through the abuse as well, or
was it always directed towardyou, at least in your household?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
There was more than one time I laid my body over my
kids and took the beating frommy ex-husband because I told him
you cannot beat my babies thisway.
And then he would beat meharder with the strap and I
would just lay there and take itbecause as long as I was laying
(19:09):
my body over my babies, theyweren't getting it.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You were okay with it .
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Absolutely, my children have memories but
luckily I was able to escapeearly enough to where they're
just fate memories and luckily Ihave really strong children and
they've done the EMDR therapyto make sure that they address
(19:36):
those extra issues that may befloating around.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I love EMDR.
Emdr was life changing for me.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
We were taught that it was demon possession and that
you needed to have the demonprayed out of you, like
literally at the altar withsomebody shaking you back and
forth until the demon was gone.
First thing I did when I leftwas put myself into therapy, and
it's probably the only thingthat saved me from going down
(20:10):
some really dark, addictive typeof pathways.
Because one thing I learnedwhen you leave a cult, you
forever have tendencies to findother things to follow.
It's what you've known.
It's either another church,another religion, food, alcohol,
(20:31):
drugs.
The reason why these thingsbecome so addictive is because
you have been indoctrinated tohave that type of personality.
They take your criticalthinking away.
So, without critical thinkingand without being able to reason
what is actually going on ortriggering you, you just go to
something to get relief.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I wasn't a part of the call, but even in society, a
woman, a college student, iswalking from this dorm to
another dorm.
She gets attacked and raped.
The first question that we aretrained to think of is what was
she wearing, right, I don't givea damn, but you know what?
(21:18):
I was trained to think that way.
It took me hours old and myhusband put a pillow over my
(21:45):
face and raped me.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
How is that my fault?
But I'm supposed to ask forforgiveness.
And because I wouldn't ask forforgiveness, the church was told
that I was banished and I wasshunned and I was basically
brought to the front of thechurch and the women of the
church were told they were nolonger allowed to speak to me,
they were no longer allowed tohave anything to do with me and
(22:09):
they were no longer allowed tohave anything to do with my
children, while the abuser wasbrought to the front pew of the
church and prayed through.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
When you are shunned, does that mean you and the kids
cannot stay at foot back in thechurch, or do you still have to
go there and sit in the backrow with your toes between your
legs?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
We have to still go and sit in the back pew and
until I was willing to go to thealtar and ask forgiveness for
being an awful wife, that waswhere I would stay.
But when I say shun the womenof the church some cooked, some
(22:54):
sewed your clothes for you Eachwoman did their role.
So when you're shunned as afemale, that means you now are
cut off from everything.
So there's no clothes for thekids, no extra food, no coats,
shoes, nothing.
(23:14):
Even my mom had to shun me andthat was really eye-opening
because I really thought that Iwas raised in a church that
believed that God loved andGod's love was unconditional.
And that year that I stayed Irealized how conditional the
(23:36):
love was, that I was actuallytaught we weren't allowed to go
to the police for help.
It was called going to Egypt,weren't allowed to go to the
police for help.
It was called going to Egyptfor help because they were of
the world and I went to thepolice.
So when I went to the police,that was another black mark
against me, because now I tookthe church's information outside
(23:59):
the four walls of that church.
I didn't know what else to do.
Nobody else was protecting me,nobody else was helping me.
They watched, they raised mefrom the time I was a baby and
they still didn.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Church has with you breaking the church laws and
then really crossing lines bygoing to outside resources such
(24:33):
as police.
How are you still alive?
Because I feel like they wouldhave the power to disappear you.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Oh, absolutely, and there was many times that I knew
it was going to happen.
I came home with my childrenfrom going to the beach right
and when I was pulling up,something told me to pause.
So I, just when I got thatfeeling, I called the police.
They came in and went throughthe side windows Because of
(25:06):
course by now they knew my story, because I had been calling and
there was a gun booby trappedto go off the minute you open
the door.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So that was the booby trapping you were talking about
earlier.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yes, the door.
So that was the baby trappingyou were talking about earlier.
Yes, Whenever.
Whoever would be opening thedoor first, which chances are
would have been one of mychildren, but it was meant for
me.
And then the next time ithappened, because I didn't have
a paper trail.
You don't go to the police Ifit's domestic violence, you have
to have proof.
You've got to show that this isactually what's happening, not
(25:44):
my word against your word.
And because his word was beingbacked by 250 people in a church
, I had no words.
I had nothing, Because thepastor got up and told everybody
that they would stand with himbecause it would be better to
lose me than to lose him and thechildren.
(26:06):
So the church was instructed totestify against me.
But then he took him out on aboat to the intercoastal and he
flipped the boat and my babieswere six, four and two.
He left the babies in themiddle of the intercoastal and
he swam to get his boat.
(26:27):
Strangers pulled my babies outof the intercoastal waterways in
South Florida and after that Isaid I've got to get in to see a
divorce judge.
I have to leave, get in to seea divorce judge.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I have to leave, we are going to wind up dead.
So did you accept the fact thatyou, assuming per your religion
, would?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
spend the rest of eternity burning in torment and
torture by doing that Absolutely.
And the day I left, the pastorgot up and this is my last
service in the church.
He got up and said from now on,any sexual abuse, child abuse,
domestic violence, abuse, drugand alcohol abuse anything that
ends with abuse will be takencare of by the men of this
(27:22):
church, and if you go outside ofthis church to get help, do not
walk back in through thosedoors.
I walked up to my mom and dadnow, mind you, my dad was an
abuser too, but at this pointthe only thing I'm doing was
fighting domestic violence,because I can't even wrap my
(27:43):
head around the sexual assaultthat I received my whole life
right.
I walked up to my mom and dadand I said I'm not quite sure
what God you're trying to get meto love right now, but this is
not a God me and my children aregoing to serve.
I picked my babies up and Iwalked out that church.
Nothing could have prepared mefor what was on the other side
(28:08):
of those walls.
It's a freedom.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
It's not free.
I can imagine walking out andbeing like, okay, what do I do
now?
Do I find the next man to tellme what to do?
Do I find the next church bellto what do you do?
And to tell?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
me what to do.
Do I find the next church bell?
What do you do?
I didn't have a clue.
I didn't know what to do.
I was so lost Because you'reraised in high-controlled
religions to be in this worldbut not a part of this world.
So when I walked through thosedoors I now was a part of that
world that I had been taught mywhole life was evil, horrible,
(28:43):
awful, and if I did, I was goingstraight to hell.
And it took me years to justfigure out that.
Wait a minute, I don't have toask permission to do this.
Wait a minute, I can pick upthe newspaper and read it
anytime I want.
You mean to tell me I can turnthe radio on and play any music
(29:03):
I want on the radio.
Blow my mind.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That you can use your phone and get on Zoom and tell
your story to a total strangerBlows my mind.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Because not only was it not allowed, we knew if we
did it we were going to hell,and we believed it, and there is
a whole church down there thatstill believes it.
Freedom was wearing open-toeshoes and no pantyhose in South
Florida's heat.
The liberation came with Idon't have to wear pantyhose.
(29:41):
I'll never forget the first daythat I said I never have to
wear these things again.
Cut those things up, and now,if I want to, they're sahas, but
don't tell nobody.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Nobody will know Never.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
We weren't allowed to wear open-toed shoes.
We weren't allowed to wear red.
One of my first things that Idid was buy a red dress and I
wore that red dress to mydivorce.
I walked in there with myelbows showing because those
weren't allowed.
So it was very small things,but it was very empowering
things.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
There's a sense of pettiness of the red dress to
some of the divorce papers thatI love.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I can never tell you that.
I have not always been sassy.
Okay, so it just came like thenobody would know what I was
doing except him.
Like the divorce attorney, shedidn't have a clue.
The domestic violence theydidn't have a clue, but he knew
(30:51):
and that's all that mattered.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I'm not sure I stand with religion any longer.
For the longest time I believedin this American structured,
organized creation of this quoteunquote God Come to find out is
the most narcissistic, unloving, uncaring, unforgiving asshole
(31:14):
that I've ever heard of in mylife, and I do believe that if
there is a higher power, it isnot that, and so I feel
comfortable saying what I justsaid.
I had the realization, luckilypretty early in my adult life,
that if hell is filled withpeople like me, it can't be that
bad of a place.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
That's exactly what I say.
If I'm going to meet you inhell, I'm going to run there
with bells on because I'm goingto be with a friend.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
I guess we both answer that in humor.
But my question to you is wheredo you stand with religion now?
Is there a God to you?
Is there a relationship?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I tried.
When I left and moved up here Ididn't know what else to do.
So the best place that I feltmost at home was inside a church
singing the old gospel hymn.
But over the years I realizedI'm much too liberal.
Jezebel usually doesn't sit ona pew of a church.
I'm a secular humanist and I amproud of that.
(32:16):
So whatever that makes me kindto my fellow man, that makes me
compassionate, that makes meempathetic, that makes me go
above and beyond for theunderdog and to make sure that
everybody that knows me knowsthat they have a safe place
(32:37):
Bottom line.
And I would have never beenable to have said that if I was
sitting in the ApostolicPentecostal Church today.
I would be judgmental, I wouldnot be kind, I would not be
compassionate and I would not beChristlike.
Today I'm more Christ-like nowoutside of the church than I
(33:05):
ever was.
When I was raised and sitting ona pew.
There was never anything wronguntil I went to the pastor to
get help because he was beatingme so bad.
Nobody knew anything.
I couldn't take it anymorebecause of the rape and the
abuse.
So I did what I thought I wassupposed to do and go tell my
pastor that I was being rapedand abused, and that's when all
(33:28):
hell broke loose.
I was dumbfounded.
I had no idea.
I thought that we would becounseled or that something
would happen, or that somethingwould happen.
And when I realized that it wasused against me as a weapon,
and the next service that I gotup, everybody in the church was
(33:49):
told exactly what he did and Ijust sat there, I don't know.
I became this little girl likeall curled up, like this can't
be happening.
I didn't know, everybody wasgoing to know, and my pastor
went on to say that if you bringit to me, it comes to this
pulpit.
That's a mistake.
(34:10):
That's a mistake I would neverhave to make again.
When I told you I went back andlistened to his sermon, I
realized that I was scared todeath of that man, petrified
Because while I was listening tothat last week his sermon, I
looked at my body language and Iwas like this.
(34:31):
I was curled up in a ball,sitting in a chair with my legs
as far as my back brace wouldlet it go, and I was like, oh my
God, this man petrifies me.
That's why I was not able toever confront him again.
I literally had to feel myselfunfold from a curled up position
(34:55):
and regain my composure.
I was in my own basement in myown house, and that's how much
power that man has over people,not just me.
That legacy lives on throughhis kids and his grandkids and I
found that generations aftergenerations usually either get a
(35:16):
lot looser in their thoughtprocess or they dig down and get
stronger and get moreauthoritative.
The other thing is, in thesehigh controlled religions, if
women can't work, who's bringingin the money to the pulpit?
Taxes don't get to be paid.
Our pastor told us to pay incash.
Nothing has to be listed withthe IRS.
(35:37):
Who pays for that?
My dad was a design engineerfor Pratt Whitney and designed
the B-1 bomber, the fuel pumpsof the B-1 bomber.
He was a military engineer.
Do you think they were going tosuffer?
And listen to little old we, me, who brought in zero to the
(35:58):
church?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Follow the money.
If you want to know what'sgoing on, follow the money.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Can you tell me where you and your family are now
your parents or siblings?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'm the oldest of five.
The day I left was the last daythey spoke with me, and my
youngest brother reached out tomy daughter three or four years
ago, but my brothers and sistershave not even spoken.
You have we get to a place?
Speaker 1 (36:37):
in life where we get to create our family, we get to
pick and choose who is worthy tobe us.
And so when you just made thatstatement of all these siblings,
(37:02):
all these parents, no contact Iimmediately flashed back to the
conversation we had before.
We hit record of the familythat you've now created and how
protective you are of them.
There's so much beauty in thatand I'm so glad that your group
of friends has you and I'm soglad that you have them.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Thank you, so am I.
I didn't start talking out andsaying stuff until three years
ago and I realized that mychildren don't know what I look
like as a baby, or as afive-year-old or a teenager, or
the day I graduated from highschool, all those pictures were
in a book, right.
And as they've grown up, I'verealized that I've helped teach
(37:49):
them to build communities forthemselves and to create a
community.
And I was sitting there aboutthree years ago.
The epiphanies were happening.
Then I had not built me acommunity, I was still alone.
I relied on my children and mygrandbabies and I was like
they're getting their own lives.
But then I was like I'm okay bymyself and I'm like who am I
(38:13):
trying to fool?
So I decided that I wouldintentionally start making
connections, intentionalconnections with people that I
know that are good people.
Maybe they've been hurt as well, but they're good people.
And that's what I've starteddoing.
(38:34):
In all honesty, thanks forTikTok, because I would have
never done it any other way, butI have friends now that I can
call and check on me, and it'sreally awkward because I don't
know quite what to do with it,but anytime I get worried I just
reach up and grab my Jezebelthing and say you got this girl,
(38:56):
you got this, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
When you made the comment of sometimes it gets
uncomfortable or awkward and I'mnot sure what to do.
Just enjoy it, because when weget to the place in life where
we're able to pick and chooseour family, nothing is being
done out of obligation anymore.
(39:20):
Nothing is being done becauseit's what we should do.
Every time my phone rings nowit's because someone chose and
wants to call me.
Enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Something I need to be reminded because it's not
easy.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
We spoke a lot about your kids and you left 25 years
ago and was your oldest four.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
The oldest six, oh so six and four, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
So where are you all now?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I have one son is a hot spotter for the dnr.
He's a wild firefighter wow hewas a structural fireman and
decided that he needed moreexcitement in his life and
decided that being a wildfirefighter is what he would do.
Then my youngest son is amachinist for one of the big
(40:18):
three auto makers in the Detroitarea and he's a single dad, and
my daughter is a single mom andshe also works for one of the
auto factory workers.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
So they're doing fantastic.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Oh, and I have to tell you, I went to college when
I first moved up here and Icouldn't finish.
And I went back last year and Iam an associate degree graduate
.
It took me 19 years to facethat demon.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Look at you, man.
I did it, Woman Damn.
I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I am the first female with a college degree out of
the Apostolic Pentecostal Church.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Wow, Maybe somebody in this church or someone that
knows somebody affiliated withany organization like this could
hear this story and be like Igot to do something.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
And that is the whole reason that drives me.
I do my TikToks not for anybodyelse.
I do them as a living legacy,because there may be one little
girl sneaking in the roomlistening to TikTok.
And if my TikTok comes acrossher screen and she knows she's
not supposed to be listening toit because she belongs to a high
(41:48):
controlled religion, it maygive her the seed she needs to
make the adjustment I have onemore question.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
And then to the real fun question.
But would you change whathappened to you?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
I wish it didn't happen to me.
I wish that the memories andthe nightmares and the night
terrors were just something thatI could ignore and do away with
.
But I realized if I would havestayed, my daughter would have
(42:33):
been raped, my granddaughterwould have been raped, my sons
would have been beaten bloodyand would have become abusers
themselves.
So not only did I stop thecycle, it no longer exists in
our generational tree.
So for that I would lay down mylife, knowing that my children
(42:59):
were free of abuse Because it'snot a matter of oh, maybe they
wouldn't my father would havesexually raped my daughter and
my sons, guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
People want to say there's a choice.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
No, Pedophiles do not wake up miraculously healed.
They just wait for their nextvictim.
My mom is part of the reasonwhy I was abused.
She was a participant and everytime it happened she knew.
(43:37):
So if they would do that totheir own daughter, what would
they do to my children?
We cannot do it alone.
We must stand together.
We must become allies.
We must stand up and fightagainst patriarchy.
We must fight against abuse.
(43:57):
We must fight against those whodon't want minorities to be
heard or to be seen.
That doesn't take just youfighting alone.
You must have allies and wemust be stronger together.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
So, as we're coming to an end, before we started
recording, we had a conversationabout the word Jezebel and we
had connected on a couple ofsongs that we listened to, that
we know that we, like that usesthat term and what that term
means and the stigmas behindthat term.
And what is so important iswhen certain communities reclaim
(44:41):
that word right.
Remember back when 80s and 90s,when the word queer was a bad
word and the gay community mycommunity, like we, own the word
queer, like to me, this isgoing to be one of those words,
which is the word Jezebel.
But, I would love for you totell us the Jezebel story that
(45:08):
you have in connection to thatword, because I that's my
favorite.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Three years ago I had a sibling reached out to my
daughter, had not spoken to herprobably her whole life, but was
wanting to make a connection,and asked her if I had finally
put the abuse that happened tome under the blood and I've left
it alone.
Have I forgiven my abusers?
(45:34):
And if I haven't, basically Ihave the Jezebel spirit because
I won't leave it alone.
And when my daughter wasretelling me the story, I looked
(45:54):
at her.
I said I have been shamed, Ihave been shunned, I have been
called that name to be made funof in front of 200 people of a
church.
I will be damn if I run fromthat name any longer.
I will become Jezebel.
It's what we're all called.
If you do anything wrong andyou're part of a church, it's oh
(46:17):
, don't get the Jezebel spirit.
Oh, don't be a Jezebel.
Oh, you can't be a JezebelBitch.
Yes, I can, yes, I will.
There's nothing to be shamedabout a woman who stands up for
what she believes in, forprotecting her country.
And so she killed men of God,so-called men of God.
(46:39):
She was protecting her kingdom.
She was a queen, and everysense of the word.
She was not afraid of somebodywho so called himself a man of
God.
She still said what needed tobe said, and that is what we
need to do today.
Anyone could be a Jezebel.
All we have to do is find ourvoice and start speaking our
(47:03):
truth and be authentic and ownit, and I will never let the
handle go.
I'm forever a Jezebel.
Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
Tamara and I had talked 20minutes off record.
I was like why the hell are wenot recording, because it was
such a great conversation.
But we connected for a bit.
We actually came across eachother through our mutual friend,
who you all know as Barb withthe Rebecca Girls a story that
(00:20):
we had covered, and so I am soglad you're here, thank you.
People ask me on the top of myDavid, you're a life coach.
You, your job is dealing withpeople's trauma.
You podcast and you're talkingabout trauma, like how are you
okay?
And I just simply learned howto enjoy the ride.
(00:44):
You know, we all have our shit.
We all have our things, and Ican cry about it and be mad at
it, or I can control it andlearn to enjoy it, and so that's
what I do, and so theseconversations inspire me.
So when people ask you that,when they're like you're
constantly talking about yourstory, like how are you not
depressed?
What is your response to that?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
There's more to my story than just my trauma.
There is life on the other sideof trauma and there is a
beautiful journey that's takenplace throughout the trauma that
has taught me so much aboutmyself, about the world I live
in and about other people worldI live in and about other people
(01:29):
, and I am determined to makesure that others know that the
trauma doesn't rule my life.
I want people to know that, nomatter what they go through,
there is another day and we canget through it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yes, I love that, before we get too deep into it
give us an introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I'm Tamara.
I've escaped a cult 25 plusyears ago now with my three
children and moved across thecountry, started life one day at
a time, one step at a time.
I am a mom of three beautifulgrown children and I have four
(02:10):
grandbabies, and one of my best,most thrilling things is that I
can look at my grandbabies andmy children and know that the
abuse stopped with me.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I love that because generational abuse is real.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, it is, Especially when you're in a high
controlled religion.
The boys are raised to abuse,the girls are raised to be
submissive.
So in order to not only stopthe abuse but make sure that it
never happens again can be afull-time job and is very
exhausting and overwhelming.
Again can be a full-time joband is very exhausting and
overwhelming, but I'm standingproud and tall today because I
(02:48):
was able to do this.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
And I know that most people only listen to my podcast
.
I do save the videos for somefuture projects and I do create
little tick talks from it.
But before we get into the deep, dark, heavy shed, I want to
say that I love your makeup, Ilove your style and you talk
(03:13):
with your hands, and so I'veseen some blue nails flashing
around.
I see the nose ring.
Once you left, the cult, thisorganization, this quote,
unquote church, whatever titlewe want to put to it.
Once you left, I'm sure therewas a process of you finding
yourself, and so are the brightmakeups and the bright colors,
(03:36):
which I love and they'restunning on you.
But is that a part ofexpressing yourself from
something that you did not getto do when you probably maybe
wanted to or didn't even knowyou wanted to like?
How did that play into yourlife?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I'm from South Florida, so the bright colors
just go along with me.
But the first thing I did whenI left and moved here to
Michigan I started therapypretty much right away and I
went to a female empoweringtherapist and she told me that
(04:11):
before I came back for my nextvisit I had to go get my nails
and my toes done.
And she asked for the week Iwant it done.
And when I came back the nextweek she looked at me and we
were going over in therapy.
I did it and she looked at meand she was like do you know why
I had to do this?
And I said I don't have a clue.
(04:33):
And my church voice still.
She said because when you are afemale, when you first wake up
in the morning, you don't lookat yourself in the mirror first.
The first thing is the extensionof yourself and that's your
hands.
When you see your hands done,pretty bright colors and all
(05:05):
ready to go, it instantly puts athought process in place for
the day that oh, these arepretty.
And even if you don't feelpretty on the inside and you
don't feel like you look prettyon the outside, you're always
going to look at your hands andsay that's pretty.
So since then and it's been 25years there's never been a week
that my fingers and toes aren'tdone, because she's absolutely
right.
The first thought I say in themorning was that's so pretty.
(05:26):
But yeah, now I do it justbecause of thrills.
And when someone says you can'tdo that because you're too old,
I was come back tomorrow andwatch it be done.
I go get the glitter and I goget the makeup and I say there
is no age to having fun makeup,and I say there is no age to
(05:49):
having fun what I say as a truecompliment.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
But when we were first logging in and I actually
got to see you because I've justseen you really through
pictures when so when I actuallygot to see you on zoom, I
immediately went to Tanya Tuckerand I love, love Tanya Tucker.
She is a powerhouse, she is astrong-willed woman.
She gets shit done.
And then, as I started talkingto you, I was like she is one of
(06:14):
those.
She's one of those women thatjust knows how to get stuff done
.
Like I love the hair, I lovethe makeup, I love the style, I
love the nails.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It is very Tanya tucker vibes for me my red hair
is the tiktok filter trend rightnow.
I went out and got red and putit in and I was like it's nice.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm usually bleach blonde, but this is a tiktok
trend start wherever you wantthere, but tell us what trauma
means to you, when it startedfor you and what it consisted of
.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Because I was raised in an apostolic Pentecostal
church, which is ahigh-controlled religion.
I don't even refer to itusually as a church.
My church was a cult.
I was in Michigan, sitting inpsychology class at about 27, 28
years old when I realized thatwhat had happened to me all
(07:09):
those years was illegal, notonly wrong.
I was 28 years old Because whenyou're raised in it from birth
and it's everyday life, youdon't know what's right or wrong
.
You only know what you're toldis right or wrong and if
(07:31):
everybody is approving it,you're just a little girl.
You don't know that whathappened to you, starting at the
age of four, was wrong andillegal, to the point that when
I left the high control church,I left because of domestic
violence.
That's how unprepared for theworld I was.
(07:52):
I didn't even say that what myfather had done to me was
illegal and wrong.
I only knew what my husband wasdoing to me was wrong and I was
away from the church for twoyears, sitting in a psychology
class, and when my professor wastalking about sexual abuse
(08:14):
being illegal, I had a completemeltdown in the classroom.
Oh my God, it was like anepiphany.
I can't believe.
I didn't know this, but youdon't know what you don't know.
I didn't have newspapers, weweren't allowed to have friends
outside the church.
There was no computers, notelephones, no radios, no
(08:40):
anything to get that informationto me.
So how do you get informationto a high-controlled religion
when nobody in that religion isoutside the four walls of that
church and you only associatewith everybody inside that
religion?
You're not going to get to thelittle girls and the little boys
(09:00):
even through school, becausethey remove them from class.
Because if you're going to talkabout sex education you have to
send permission slips home.
We were exempt.
Current affairs we were exempt.
We got a letter from ourminister.
I could read a book, but thenthat book had to be approved by
(09:22):
my father and the pastor beforewe could read the book for book
reports.
So I was reading books by LouisMay Alcott from the time I was
six years old, because those arethe kind of books I was allowed
to read and do a book report on.
So if you have no outsideinformation, you're not allowed
(09:43):
to go to the police.
So if you have no outsideinformation, you're not allowed
(10:11):
to go to the police.
Nobody was allowed to go to DHSDepartment of Human Services
for.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Medicaid for food stamps.
It wasn't allowed Everybody.
Then the realization kicked inof what I was raised in we're
only as good as our leaders.
So if our leaders are sayingyou deserve this, shut up and
listen to me.
That's what you do.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Exactly, and you have to understand that women
weren't allowed to work outsidethe home.
We were taught not to look at aman straight in the eyes.
We were taught as females tolower our heads and not give
direct eye contact ever toauthority.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I want the picture to be painted.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
How recent is that you're referring to?
What they do tell people is whenwe have company, and when it
was just us the church people orthe people who were regulars
then he would teach how hewanted to teach and say what he
wanted to say.
So he was a very cautious andfiltered man and very
(11:19):
calculating and, as a matter offact, last week I went through
YouTube and his picture came upmy old pastor and they've
started uploading his sermons onYouTube.
I haven't listened to him in 25plus years and I was like, ok,
(11:39):
I have to do this, I have to dothis.
And when I turned that sermonon thinking about me sitting in
the pew as a little girl versusme now as a strong, independent
female that can critically thinkwhich, by the way, I had to
teach myself how to do that,because they take that from you
(11:59):
I was shocked at how my headkept shaking going.
I can't believe this is what isbeing taught, this is what's
being said, this is how thesethings are just completely over
and over again happening,because it's never stopped, it's
still going on.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
And what is so interesting, because it's the
lack of the better word.
But looking back on it, isthere that part of you that is
like how did I ever believe thisshit?
And then that other part of youis I know exactly why and how I
believe this.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Absolutely.
It's like, how did I stay thatlong?
And the other part of me islike how do I not stay?
I was not marketable.
I'd never worked outside thehome.
I had three little babies andone was deathly ill, born with
an IgG immune deficiency,subclass two and four.
(12:59):
So we got IV infusions everysix weeks.
What was I going to do?
Where was I going to go?
I didn't have anything to evenwork at Walgreens or work at
Walmart or work at CVS.
I had no skills whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And this was all part of their master plan, right.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Absolutely, absolutely, all part of their
master plan right?
That's how?
Absolutely absolutely, becauseif they can control the women,
they can control everything.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And isn't it funny how, if they can control women,
they can control everything.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
However, in their eyes, women are less than it's
insane, but I'm going to tellyou, behind every cult leader is
a woman that's poking him on.
The women of our churches todayare the most zealot, the most
(14:01):
obnoxious, the mean, cruel andfull of hatred, and they push
their agendas.
In almost every church I'veever been, if you tell me where
the clique of the women are, I'mgoing to tell you that's the
theme of that church, and I'venot been wrong yet.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Would you mind giving us an idea of the types of
trauma that you and children andother women in your same
situation have went through andare to this day as we're airing
this or recording this?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
podcast.
I know for a fact that mysexual abuse started at four
years old.
When it started.
That's my first memory and I'veoften said children were
remembering making snowmen andplaying in the ocean and
building sandcastles.
My first memory was beingsexually abused by my father.
(15:05):
And not only me, but there was20 other girls in the church I
was raised in that also weresexually abused.
Now I'm one of the few thatactually walked away from it.
Most have decided to forgiveand forget.
Let it go under the blood, notthis girl.
(15:27):
Then there was domesticviolence.
The church grooms you to be inan abusive relationship.
The domestic violence washorrific.
My children were.
He tried to kill my babies.
He booby-trapped the house withguns that the SWAT team had to
(15:50):
come in and disarmed.
The reason why I finally leftwas because my four-year-old son
came up to me and handed me thekeys and looked at me and said
Mama, I can't protect youanymore.
That snapped something in me.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
He was four.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
He was four.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So when he should be having memories of the beach and
the sand and everything thatyou just said that you did not
get Right, you then realize thatnow my children are not either.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Exactly, and that's what made me pack my babies and
walk away.
I'm not sure what gave me thestrength to do it, but the abuse
was horrific.
He proceeded to tell a judgethat he was allowed to rape me
(16:42):
because I was his property.
And the judge looked at him andsaid you do not have counsel.
I have to advise you to stopbecause you're incriminating
yourself.
He said I can't incriminatemyself, I have God on my side.
The only person I had in thecourtroom supporting me was a
(17:03):
victim rights person and aperson from the domestic
violence shelter, so one sat onone side of me and the other one
sat on the other side of me andI just sat there, shaking from
head to toe, knowing that he hasraped me before and it's not
(17:23):
going to stop.
He told the judge this piece ofpaper will not keep her
protected.
She's my property and that'swhat the men in that church
believe.
That's how they're taught.
I can't tell you how many timesI've been told growing up that
all men have tempers.
It's the woman's job to makesure they're doing what they're
(17:45):
supposed to be doing as a godlywoman and a good wife to help
make sure that those thingsdon't happen.
And then the beatings.
The young boys don't getspanking, we get beat to where
we're bloody and then they poursalt in it.
(18:06):
Just the amount of beatingsthat you get will put any little
child into submission, Justbecause you don't want that
anymore.
And of course they think sparethe rod, you spoil the child.
So they're bound and determinedto make sure they're not
spoiling a child.
When I think back of all thetimes that abuse happened and I
(18:30):
tell you that I can't evennumber the amount of incidences,
that's how many there were.
And it still happens.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Did your children go through the abuse as well, or
was it always directed towardyou, at least in your household?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
There was more than one time I laid my body over my
kids and took the beating frommy ex-husband because I told him
you cannot beat my babies thisway.
And then he would beat meharder with the strap and I
would just lay there and take itbecause as long as I was laying
(19:09):
my body over my babies, theyweren't getting it.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You were okay with it .
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Absolutely, my children have memories but
luckily I was able to escapeearly enough to where they're
just fate memories and luckily Ihave really strong children and
they've done the EMDR therapyto make sure that they address
(19:36):
those extra issues that may befloating around.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I love EMDR.
Emdr was life changing for me.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
We were taught that it was demon possession and that
you needed to have the demonprayed out of you, like
literally at the altar withsomebody shaking you back and
forth until the demon was gone.
First thing I did when I leftwas put myself into therapy, and
it's probably the only thingthat saved me from going down
(20:10):
some really dark, addictive typeof pathways.
Because one thing I learnedwhen you leave a cult, you
forever have tendencies to findother things to follow.
It's what you've known.
It's either another church,another religion, food, alcohol,
(20:31):
drugs.
The reason why these thingsbecome so addictive is because
you have been indoctrinated tohave that type of personality.
They take your criticalthinking away.
So, without critical thinkingand without being able to reason
what is actually going on ortriggering you, you just go to
something to get relief.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I wasn't a part of the call, but even in society, a
woman, a college student, iswalking from this dorm to
another dorm.
She gets attacked and raped.
The first question that we aretrained to think of is what was
she wearing, right, I don't givea damn, but you know what?
(21:18):
I was trained to think that way.
It took me hours old and myhusband put a pillow over my
(21:45):
face and raped me.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
How is that my fault?
But I'm supposed to ask forforgiveness.
And because I wouldn't ask forforgiveness, the church was told
that I was banished and I wasshunned and I was basically
brought to the front of thechurch and the women of the
church were told they were nolonger allowed to speak to me,
they were no longer allowed tohave anything to do with me and
(22:09):
they were no longer allowed tohave anything to do with my
children, while the abuser wasbrought to the front pew of the
church and prayed through.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
When you are shunned, does that mean you and the kids
cannot stay at foot back in thechurch, or do you still have to
go there and sit in the backrow with your toes between your
legs?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
We have to still go and sit in the back pew and
until I was willing to go to thealtar and ask forgiveness for
being an awful wife, that waswhere I would stay.
But when I say shun the womenof the church some cooked, some
(22:54):
sewed your clothes for you Eachwoman did their role.
So when you're shunned as afemale, that means you now are
cut off from everything.
So there's no clothes for thekids, no extra food, no coats,
shoes, nothing.
(23:14):
Even my mom had to shun me andthat was really eye-opening
because I really thought that Iwas raised in a church that
believed that God loved andGod's love was unconditional.
And that year that I stayed Irealized how conditional the
(23:36):
love was, that I was actuallytaught we weren't allowed to go
to the police for help.
It was called going to Egypt,weren't allowed to go to the
police for help.
It was called going to Egyptfor help because they were of
the world and I went to thepolice.
So when I went to the police,that was another black mark
against me, because now I tookthe church's information outside
(23:59):
the four walls of that church.
I didn't know what else to do.
Nobody else was protecting me,nobody else was helping me.
They watched, they raised mefrom the time I was a baby and
they still didn.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Church has with you breaking the church laws and
then really crossing lines bygoing to outside resources such
(24:33):
as police.
How are you still alive?
Because I feel like they wouldhave the power to disappear you.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Oh, absolutely, and there was many times that I knew
it was going to happen.
I came home with my childrenfrom going to the beach right
and when I was pulling up,something told me to pause.
So I, just when I got thatfeeling, I called the police.
They came in and went throughthe side windows Because of
(25:06):
course by now they knew my story, because I had been calling and
there was a gun booby trappedto go off the minute you open
the door.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So that was the booby trapping you were talking about
earlier.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yes, the door.
So that was the baby trappingyou were talking about earlier.
Yes, Whenever.
Whoever would be opening thedoor first, which chances are
would have been one of mychildren, but it was meant for
me.
And then the next time ithappened, because I didn't have
a paper trail.
You don't go to the police Ifit's domestic violence, you have
to have proof.
You've got to show that this isactually what's happening, not
(25:44):
my word against your word.
And because his word was beingbacked by 250 people in a church
, I had no words.
I had nothing, Because thepastor got up and told everybody
that they would stand with himbecause it would be better to
lose me than to lose him and thechildren.
(26:06):
So the church was instructed totestify against me.
But then he took him out on aboat to the intercoastal and he
flipped the boat and my babieswere six, four and two.
He left the babies in themiddle of the intercoastal and
he swam to get his boat.
(26:27):
Strangers pulled my babies outof the intercoastal waterways in
South Florida and after that Isaid I've got to get in to see a
divorce judge.
I have to leave, get in to seea divorce judge.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I have to leave, we are going to wind up dead.
So did you accept the fact thatyou, assuming per your religion
, would?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
spend the rest of eternity burning in torment and
torture by doing that Absolutely.
And the day I left, the pastorgot up and this is my last
service in the church.
He got up and said from now on,any sexual abuse, child abuse,
domestic violence, abuse, drugand alcohol abuse anything that
ends with abuse will be takencare of by the men of this
(27:22):
church, and if you go outside ofthis church to get help, do not
walk back in through thosedoors.
I walked up to my mom and dadnow, mind you, my dad was an
abuser too, but at this pointthe only thing I'm doing was
fighting domestic violence,because I can't even wrap my
(27:43):
head around the sexual assaultthat I received my whole life
right.
I walked up to my mom and dadand I said I'm not quite sure
what God you're trying to get meto love right now, but this is
not a God me and my children aregoing to serve.
I picked my babies up and Iwalked out that church.
Nothing could have prepared mefor what was on the other side
(28:08):
of those walls.
It's a freedom.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
It's not free.
I can imagine walking out andbeing like, okay, what do I do
now?
Do I find the next man to tellme what to do?
Do I find the next church bellto what do you do?
And to tell?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
me what to do.
Do I find the next church bell?
What do you do?
I didn't have a clue.
I didn't know what to do.
I was so lost Because you'reraised in high-controlled
religions to be in this worldbut not a part of this world.
So when I walked through thosedoors I now was a part of that
world that I had been taught mywhole life was evil, horrible,
(28:43):
awful, and if I did, I was goingstraight to hell.
And it took me years to justfigure out that.
Wait a minute, I don't have toask permission to do this.
Wait a minute, I can pick upthe newspaper and read it
anytime I want.
You mean to tell me I can turnthe radio on and play any music
(29:03):
I want on the radio.
Blow my mind.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That you can use your phone and get on Zoom and tell
your story to a total strangerBlows my mind.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Because not only was it not allowed, we knew if we
did it we were going to hell,and we believed it, and there is
a whole church down there thatstill believes it.
Freedom was wearing open-toeshoes and no pantyhose in South
Florida's heat.
The liberation came with Idon't have to wear pantyhose.
(29:41):
I'll never forget the first daythat I said I never have to
wear these things again.
Cut those things up, and now,if I want to, they're sahas, but
don't tell nobody.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Nobody will know Never.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
We weren't allowed to wear open-toed shoes.
We weren't allowed to wear red.
One of my first things that Idid was buy a red dress and I
wore that red dress to mydivorce.
I walked in there with myelbows showing because those
weren't allowed.
So it was very small things,but it was very empowering
things.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
There's a sense of pettiness of the red dress to
some of the divorce papers thatI love.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I can never tell you that.
I have not always been sassy.
Okay, so it just came like thenobody would know what I was
doing except him.
Like the divorce attorney, shedidn't have a clue.
The domestic violence theydidn't have a clue, but he knew
(30:51):
and that's all that mattered.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I'm not sure I stand with religion any longer.
For the longest time I believedin this American structured,
organized creation of this quoteunquote God Come to find out is
the most narcissistic, unloving, uncaring, unforgiving asshole
(31:14):
that I've ever heard of in mylife, and I do believe that if
there is a higher power, it isnot that, and so I feel
comfortable saying what I justsaid.
I had the realization, luckilypretty early in my adult life,
that if hell is filled withpeople like me, it can't be that
bad of a place.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
That's exactly what I say.
If I'm going to meet you inhell, I'm going to run there
with bells on because I'm goingto be with a friend.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
I guess we both answer that in humor.
But my question to you is wheredo you stand with religion now?
Is there a God to you?
Is there a relationship?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I tried.
When I left and moved up here Ididn't know what else to do.
So the best place that I feltmost at home was inside a church
singing the old gospel hymn.
But over the years I realizedI'm much too liberal.
Jezebel usually doesn't sit ona pew of a church.
I'm a secular humanist and I amproud of that.
(32:16):
So whatever that makes me kindto my fellow man, that makes me
compassionate, that makes meempathetic, that makes me go
above and beyond for theunderdog and to make sure that
everybody that knows me knowsthat they have a safe place
(32:37):
Bottom line.
And I would have never beenable to have said that if I was
sitting in the ApostolicPentecostal Church today.
I would be judgmental, I wouldnot be kind, I would not be
compassionate and I would not beChristlike.
Today I'm more Christ-like nowoutside of the church than I
(33:05):
ever was.
When I was raised and sitting ona pew.
There was never anything wronguntil I went to the pastor to
get help because he was beatingme so bad.
Nobody knew anything.
I couldn't take it anymorebecause of the rape and the
abuse.
So I did what I thought I wassupposed to do and go tell my
pastor that I was being rapedand abused, and that's when all
(33:28):
hell broke loose.
I was dumbfounded.
I had no idea.
I thought that we would becounseled or that something
would happen, or that somethingwould happen.
And when I realized that it wasused against me as a weapon,
and the next service that I gotup, everybody in the church was
(33:49):
told exactly what he did and Ijust sat there, I don't know.
I became this little girl likeall curled up, like this can't
be happening.
I didn't know, everybody wasgoing to know, and my pastor
went on to say that if you bringit to me, it comes to this
pulpit.
That's a mistake.
(34:10):
That's a mistake I would neverhave to make again.
When I told you I went back andlistened to his sermon, I
realized that I was scared todeath of that man, petrified
Because while I was listening tothat last week his sermon, I
looked at my body language and Iwas like this.
(34:31):
I was curled up in a ball,sitting in a chair with my legs
as far as my back brace wouldlet it go, and I was like, oh my
God, this man petrifies me.
That's why I was not able toever confront him again.
I literally had to feel myselfunfold from a curled up position
(34:55):
and regain my composure.
I was in my own basement in myown house, and that's how much
power that man has over people,not just me.
That legacy lives on throughhis kids and his grandkids and I
found that generations aftergenerations usually either get a
(35:16):
lot looser in their thoughtprocess or they dig down and get
stronger and get moreauthoritative.
The other thing is, in thesehigh controlled religions, if
women can't work, who's bringingin the money to the pulpit?
Taxes don't get to be paid.
Our pastor told us to pay incash.
Nothing has to be listed withthe IRS.
(35:37):
Who pays for that?
My dad was a design engineerfor Pratt Whitney and designed
the B-1 bomber, the fuel pumpsof the B-1 bomber.
He was a military engineer.
Do you think they were going tosuffer?
And listen to little old we, me, who brought in zero to the
(35:58):
church?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Follow the money.
If you want to know what'sgoing on, follow the money.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Can you tell me where you and your family are now
your parents or siblings?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'm the oldest of five.
The day I left was the last daythey spoke with me, and my
youngest brother reached out tomy daughter three or four years
ago, but my brothers and sistershave not even spoken.
You have we get to a place?
Speaker 1 (36:37):
in life where we get to create our family, we get to
pick and choose who is worthy tobe us.
And so when you just made thatstatement of all these siblings,
(37:02):
all these parents, no contact Iimmediately flashed back to the
conversation we had before.
We hit record of the familythat you've now created and how
protective you are of them.
There's so much beauty in thatand I'm so glad that your group
of friends has you and I'm soglad that you have them.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Thank you, so am I.
I didn't start talking out andsaying stuff until three years
ago and I realized that mychildren don't know what I look
like as a baby, or as afive-year-old or a teenager, or
the day I graduated from highschool, all those pictures were
in a book, right.
And as they've grown up, I'verealized that I've helped teach
(37:49):
them to build communities forthemselves and to create a
community.
And I was sitting there aboutthree years ago.
The epiphanies were happening.
Then I had not built me acommunity, I was still alone.
I relied on my children and mygrandbabies and I was like
they're getting their own lives.
But then I was like I'm okay bymyself and I'm like who am I
(38:13):
trying to fool?
So I decided that I wouldintentionally start making
connections, intentionalconnections with people that I
know that are good people.
Maybe they've been hurt as well, but they're good people.
And that's what I've starteddoing.
(38:34):
In all honesty, thanks forTikTok, because I would have
never done it any other way, butI have friends now that I can
call and check on me, and it'sreally awkward because I don't
know quite what to do with it,but anytime I get worried I just
reach up and grab my Jezebelthing and say you got this girl,
(38:56):
you got this, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
When you made the comment of sometimes it gets
uncomfortable or awkward and I'mnot sure what to do.
Just enjoy it, because when weget to the place in life where
we're able to pick and chooseour family, nothing is being
done out of obligation anymore.
(39:20):
Nothing is being done becauseit's what we should do.
Every time my phone rings nowit's because someone chose and
wants to call me.
Enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Something I need to be reminded because it's not
easy.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
We spoke a lot about your kids and you left 25 years
ago and was your oldest four.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
The oldest six, oh so six and four, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
So where are you all now?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I have one son is a hot spotter for the dnr.
He's a wild firefighter wow hewas a structural fireman and
decided that he needed moreexcitement in his life and
decided that being a wildfirefighter is what he would do.
Then my youngest son is amachinist for one of the big
(40:18):
three auto makers in the Detroitarea and he's a single dad, and
my daughter is a single mom andshe also works for one of the
auto factory workers.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
So they're doing fantastic.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Oh, and I have to tell you, I went to college when
I first moved up here and Icouldn't finish.
And I went back last year and Iam an associate degree graduate
.
It took me 19 years to facethat demon.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Look at you, man.
I did it, Woman Damn.
I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I am the first female with a college degree out of
the Apostolic Pentecostal Church.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Wow, Maybe somebody in this church or someone that
knows somebody affiliated withany organization like this could
hear this story and be like Igot to do something.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
And that is the whole reason that drives me.
I do my TikToks not for anybodyelse.
I do them as a living legacy,because there may be one little
girl sneaking in the roomlistening to TikTok.
And if my TikTok comes acrossher screen and she knows she's
not supposed to be listening toit because she belongs to a high
(41:48):
controlled religion, it maygive her the seed she needs to
make the adjustment I have onemore question.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
And then to the real fun question.
But would you change whathappened to you?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
I wish it didn't happen to me.
I wish that the memories andthe nightmares and the night
terrors were just something thatI could ignore and do away with
.
But I realized if I would havestayed, my daughter would have
(42:33):
been raped, my granddaughterwould have been raped, my sons
would have been beaten bloodyand would have become abusers
themselves.
So not only did I stop thecycle, it no longer exists in
our generational tree.
So for that I would lay down mylife, knowing that my children
(42:59):
were free of abuse Because it'snot a matter of oh, maybe they
wouldn't my father would havesexually raped my daughter and
my sons, guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
People want to say there's a choice.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
No, Pedophiles do not wake up miraculously healed.
They just wait for their nextvictim.
My mom is part of the reasonwhy I was abused.
She was a participant and everytime it happened she knew.
(43:37):
So if they would do that totheir own daughter, what would
they do to my children?
We cannot do it alone.
We must stand together.
We must become allies.
We must stand up and fightagainst patriarchy.
We must fight against abuse.
(43:57):
We must fight against those whodon't want minorities to be
heard or to be seen.
That doesn't take just youfighting alone.
You must have allies and wemust be stronger together.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
So, as we're coming to an end, before we started
recording, we had a conversationabout the word Jezebel and we
had connected on a couple ofsongs that we listened to, that
we know that we, like that usesthat term and what that term
means and the stigmas behindthat term.
And what is so important iswhen certain communities reclaim
(44:41):
that word right.
Remember back when 80s and 90s,when the word queer was a bad
word and the gay community mycommunity, like we, own the word
queer, like to me, this isgoing to be one of those words,
which is the word Jezebel.
But, I would love for you totell us the Jezebel story that
(45:08):
you have in connection to thatword, because I that's my
favorite.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Three years ago I had a sibling reached out to my
daughter, had not spoken to herprobably her whole life, but was
wanting to make a connection,and asked her if I had finally
put the abuse that happened tome under the blood and I've left
it alone.
Have I forgiven my abusers?
(45:34):
And if I haven't, basically Ihave the Jezebel spirit because
I won't leave it alone.
And when my daughter wasretelling me the story, I looked
(45:54):
at her.
I said I have been shamed, Ihave been shunned, I have been
called that name to be made funof in front of 200 people of a
church.
I will be damn if I run fromthat name any longer.
I will become Jezebel.
It's what we're all called.
If you do anything wrong andyou're part of a church, it's oh
(46:17):
, don't get the Jezebel spirit.
Oh, don't be a Jezebel.
Oh, you can't be a JezebelBitch.
Yes, I can, yes, I will.
There's nothing to be shamedabout a woman who stands up for
what she believes in, forprotecting her country.
And so she killed men of God,so-called men of God.
(46:39):
She was protecting her kingdom.
She was a queen, and everysense of the word.
She was not afraid of somebodywho so called himself a man of
God.
She still said what needed tobe said, and that is what we
need to do today.
Anyone could be a Jezebel.
All we have to do is find ourvoice and start speaking our
(47:03):
truth and be authentic and ownit, and I will never let the
handle go.
I'm forever a Jezebel.
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