June 10, 2025 • 46 mins
What if securing professional opportunities is less about networking and more about being a decent person? In a conversation with Lisa Cooper Ellison, a trauma-informed writing coach and host of the "Writing Your Resilience" podcast, we explore how authentic connections can open unexpected doors in content creation.
Lisa shares how her first major speaking opportunity on NPR arose from connecting with fellow writers rather than a strategic pitch. "These industries are small," she notes, emphasizing the importance of relationships in her work.
She discusses her journey from agency therapist to writing coach and podcaster, highlighting the benefits of consistent content creation in enhancing her skills and shaping her coaching programs. Lisa also candidly addresses the challenges of maintaining a podcast amid personal and professional obstacles, offering practical advice for dealing with self-doubt and disruptions.
Her metaphor of hill-running encourages creators to focus on the immediate path rather than the overwhelming larger picture. "Let progress, not perfection, be your North Star," she says.
Lisa’s insights provide a valuable framework for anyone looking to grow their content creation journey. Subscribe to the podcast for more conversations on developing your voice and building genuine connections.
If you've wondered why nothing is working in your business in 2025, you need a clear strategy. Download our free guide, Build Your Business's Strategic Foundation, where I'm walking you through a business model canvas and a customer journey map. You'll see how we use this at Proffitt Media, plus find templates for you to create your own. Go to krystalproffitt.com/strategy to download today.
Click the "Send Krystal a Text Message" link above to send us your questions, comments, and feedback on the show! (Pssst...we'll do giveaways in upcoming episodes so make sure you leave your name & podcast title.)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And this is the thing that I have learned time and
time again whatever industryyou're in because you know if
you're listening to this podcast, you could be in any industry
and it certainly may not be minebut these industries are small
and you never know what thatperson who's sitting in front of
you is going to do in theirlife and how, what role they're
(00:22):
going to play in your life.
You just have no idea.
And it may just be that you'vehad a lovely interaction, right,
it doesn't have to be that.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to thinkabout everybody Like what are
they going to do?
It could just be you've had alovely interaction and that
interaction energizes you andgives you confidence to have the
next lovely interaction withsomeone else.
Or maybe they're having a roughday and you've made their day,
(00:44):
and who knows what that's goingto open up for them.
I mean, it's just that simpleand clear.
And I think if everyone couldjust approach things that way
and I don't want to say everyone, because we all have our own
journeys, but I would say,imagine what the world would be
like if more of us approachedeverything that way.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Welcome to the Profit Podcast, where we teach you how
to start, launch and marketyour content with confidence.
I'm your host, crystal Profit,and I'm so excited that you're
here.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday, because if you've been
trying to figure out the worldof content creation, this is the
show that will help be yourtime-saving shortcut.
So let's get right to it, shallwe All?
(01:29):
Right, profit Podcast listeners, we have an extra special guest
on the show today.
Welcome, lisa.
How?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
are you?
I am doing wonderful today.
Thank you so much for having meon your show, Crystal.
It is just such a pleasure tosee you today.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, I'm so happy to chat with you.
So, lisa and I I feel like wego way back I mean, in reality
it hasn't been that long butalso it feels like I am very
familiar with your content andthe things that you're creating
because we work together in afew different ways.
But can you please telleverybody what type of content
(02:03):
creator you are and thedifferent ways that you create
content today and a little bitabout yourself?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, so my name is Lisa Cooper Ellison and I'm a
trauma-informed writing coach.
I'm going to say what that isvery quickly, because people
always ask like what the what?
Okay, so a trauma-informedwriting coach is someone who
understands what trauma is, howit impacts the nervous system,
and the biggest thing that I dofor people, regardless of the
types of projects they'reworking on, is I help them
(02:31):
regulate their nervous system sothey can maximize their
creativity.
And so the podcast which is oneof the biggest content creation
projects that I have is Writingyour Resilience, and this is a
podcast that is geared towardsanyone who wants to use the
writing process to understandtheir life, and so the tagline
(02:52):
is the more you work on yourstory, you will change lives,
especially your own, and that'sbecause, as we understand more
about ourselves, that ripplesout into everything, and to me,
that is more important thanactually publishing a book,
which I know will sound reallyodd to people who are writing,
because part of my role is I dohelp people, as a writing coach,
(03:14):
publish their books.
But if you don't understandyour story that you're telling
yourself, you can have all kindsof outward success and feel
miserable inside, so that innerwork that we do is so important,
and that's one of the things Ireally love to explore on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Okay, I'm so grateful that you explained all of that,
because it is, I think, that bydefinition.
We could go a bunch ofdifferent ways on what trauma
writing is, and I'm so curious.
So I know a little bit aboutyour background, but can you
share?
Before the podcast came about,was this something that you were
doing in your professional life, how did you actually get into
(03:57):
this and what did that look like?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, so I have to go back to 2012.
I am one of those people that Isay I got 2012 because I had
this goal of becoming atherapist and working for an
agency.
And all of my friends who werein graduate school with me they
were like, oh, I can't wait toget in private practice and have
my own business.
(04:20):
And I was like, you know, Ithink I really want to work at
an agency and get a paycheck.
And then I ended up, you know,doing that work and getting Lyme
disease and I got so sick thatI had to stop working.
And when I stopped working, Igot really clear about what was
important to me, and writing wasa huge piece of it.
(04:43):
So I loved everything I'dlearned about mental health and
I knew I wanted that to be apiece of what I did.
But writing, which had beenthis long-term goal, was also
important to me, and so, over aperiod of time and with the help
of many people who supported meon my journey, I ended up
learning so much about writingthat I started teaching writing
(05:05):
classes and I did some speaking,and then I built a business,
and so I started my business, Iwould say, in a baby way in
2015,.
I just kind of said I think I'mgoing to be an editor.
I just put it out there.
I didn't know anything aboutbusiness.
I do not come from the businessworld Like you come from the
business world.
I've been like, hey, we'regoing to do this thing and we're
(05:26):
going to figure it out, andthat's why I love working with
you, because you helped mefigure it out.
But I, I did that work and andI slowly built my business over
time.
I went full time in 2019.
And then, during the pandemic,when everything went online, it
actually allowed my business toskyrocket, because initially I
(05:49):
was working locally and thensuddenly I had access to this
national and internationalaudience.
And so I'm a person who is anintrovert.
I need a lot of time alone andI've been on social media.
An introvert, I need a lot oftime alone and I've been on
social media and I think youwere talking in a recent episode
(06:09):
of your podcast about how youwere on Facebook before Facebook
was used for business, and Iwas on Facebook and I've been on
some of the other platforms,but it just doesn't speak to me
and it didn't speak to the kindsof relationships I wanted to
build, and so people kept sayingto me you should run a podcast,
you should start a podcast,lisa, and there was a part of me
(06:30):
that's like no, that's tooscary, I don't want to do it.
But then I had this momentwhere I was like, yeah, I need
to start a podcast, and so I did, with the help of one of your
classes and some other supportsthat I had, and so what I've
loved about this process is thatit allows me to engage
(06:52):
authentically with people.
I get to know them, I'mbuilding new relationships and
it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, oh, my gosh.
Well, I thank you so much forsharing your journey and, like I
said earlier, like I'm sograteful that you're you've made
it into our universe here, youknow, for all the content
creating that we're doing, and Ithink that and I don't know if
anyone's ever given you thiscompliment, so I'm going to take
this opportunity to do it.
You have an incredible podcastvoice, and so I don't know if
(07:21):
that comes from your training asa therapist, but it is very
because, again, lisa and I'veworked together.
I've listened to severalepisodes of her podcast, and
more than just a casual listener.
Right, lisa went through thisprocess where she had asked me
to audit her podcast, so I waslistening to what she was
talking about and I was justlike gosh, it feels like I'm
(07:42):
sitting in a therapy session asfar as, like, this is a very
soothing conversation thatyou're having with your guests,
or sometimes it's that kick inthe pants that's like, hey, you
know, this is what we need tohear, whether it's, you know,
encouraging someone in a moreloving way, and I don't know.
So, if you've never heard that,I wanted to give you this
(08:03):
compliment because you do havesuch an incredible podcast voice
.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Oh well, thank you so much.
That makes my day and my heartis full hearing it.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, absolutely Well, I wanted to and I kind of
prefaced before we startedrecording that, lisa, and you
already mentioned this thatyou've done a lot of speaking,
and this is something that manypeople in this audience
specifically aspire to do.
Eventually, maybe they startedtheir podcast and they think, oh
, one day, maybe this industryevent will recognize what I'm
(08:37):
doing, they'll do a search onwho should we have to speak at
our event.
My podcast will pop up and thenI'll just you know, but like
the, the note from you know, theGmail gods will come to my
inbox and it will say pleasecome speak at our event.
Um, but I think that it'ssomething that it's very
mysterious how do you go fromcreating content online to
(09:00):
actually speaking at events?
And I would just love to hearsome of your experience that
you've had.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, and I think that is a dream of everyone.
Right, I'm going to bediscovered by the powers that be
because I have done somethingmagnificent and what I would say
, and a colleague of mine whodoes so much in the field of
writing, Jane Friedman, we havethis conversation once that that
doesn't happen for anyonereally.
(09:28):
I mean, maybe there's someone Iknow that now that I've said
this someone is going to emailand say but it happened to me,
and so if it did, kudos to you.
But for the rest of us, a lotof it has to do with networking
and that can sound like thissuper fancy pants, scary, oh my
gosh, I have to like put on abusiness suit and do this like
(09:48):
special thing kind of experience, but it's not.
And so, you know, one of myfirst big speaking engagements,
which I'm really proud of andalso scared me to death, was
being on NPR.
So I was on an NPR show andthis is how it ended up I was at
(10:09):
a writing conference and I wasworkshopping my work with other
people and I was just a decenthuman being.
Right, that's how I was adecent human being who paid
attention, who listened, whogave them good feedback, who was
interested in what they had tosay and I didn't know that one
(10:31):
of the people in this classhappened to be an assistant
producer at NPR and then I hadthis lucky publication.
That happened.
I happened to say to my groupbecause I had told them before
hey, if you have something, Iwill support you.
Please send me an email withwhatever you've done and I will
share it with the people that Iknow.
So I was just following suitwith everyone else and said, hey
(10:55):
, I have this publication.
And she ended up taking it toher producer and her producer
was like I think I want thisperson on the show and there are
so many times where just beinga good friend not that idea that
, oh, you're that person who hasaccess to something, or if I
speak to you and I smile realbright or I pitch you, you're
(11:17):
going to give me someopportunity.
That's not what I did.
I was just like, oh, let's tryto be friends, let's see what we
have in common and that getsyou so far.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yes, oh my gosh, and I think that there's something
to be said because, like yousaid, it's so simple, but it's
also, I think, the thing thatand I don't really know how to
label it, but I do find thatthere's a lot of people that
will be opportunistic.
Whenever someone enters a roomor say you go to an industry
(11:52):
event and, all of a sudden, thefounder of the company is there,
or that one person that you'vealways wanted to meet, how can I
add value to that person's dayor give them something that
would hopefully be?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
memorable instead of trying to take for myself.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I think that that's what people default to, whether
it's like our upbringing orwhether it's how we were, you
know like, brought up in thisworld.
I have no idea what it is, butI feel I have the same reaction
as you, kind of like how can Ijust add value to this person's
day and treat them like a humanbeing?
And hopefully they'll walk awayfeeling like, huh, that was a
(12:32):
good interaction.
Or I wouldn't mind standing inline at you know the coffee line
with them for the next 10minutes while we're waiting in
between sessions or something ifyou're at an event, while we're
waiting in between sessions orsomething if you're at an event.
So I think that all that to saybeing just a decent human and
showing up to offer value tosomeone else's day can get you
(12:53):
so far, would you agree?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Oh, my gosh.
It gets you so much fartherthan you can ever imagine.
And this is the thing that Ihave learned time and time again
, Whatever industry you're in,because, if you're listening to
this podcast, you could be inany industry ever imagined.
And this is the thing that Ihave learned time and time again
whatever industry you're in,because you know, if you're
listening to this podcast, youcould be in any industry, and it
certainly may not be mine, butthese industries are small and
you never know who, what thatperson who's sitting in front of
(13:18):
you is going to do in theirlife and how, what role they're
going to play in your life.
You just have no idea.
And it may just be that you'vehad a lovely interaction, right?
It doesn't have to be that.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to thinkabout everybody, Like what are
they going to do?
It could just be you've had alovely interaction and that
(13:38):
interaction energizes you andgives you confidence to have the
next lovely interaction withsomeone else.
Or maybe they're having a roughday and you've made their day,
and who knows what that's goingto open up for them.
I mean, it's just that simpleand clear and I think if
everyone could just approachthings that way and I don't want
to say everyone, because we allhave our own journeys, but I
(13:58):
would say, imagine what theworld would be like if more of
us approached everything thatway.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yes, I totally agree.
And now that I'm thinking aboutyou know you getting approached
to speak and having yourpodcast and doing your business,
you know all of it kind of goeshand in hand together.
Is there something reallyspecific with your podcast that
has helped you in speaking onstage or going to these bigger
(14:25):
events?
Like I'm so curious, like whatthe synergy is between, like,
creating regular content andthen leveraging that into a
speaking topic or a discussion.
Has it helped in that way?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, I would say that having this podcast number
one, I would say it improves myspeaking skills.
So if you are a beginnerpodcaster, you're like, oh, I
really want to do these things.
How can I learn how to be abetter speaker?
Well, start a podcast and startspeaking, and that's going to
help.
But the more I do this, themore I become a subject matter
expert.
Just by the fact that I'mcontinuing to talk about this
(15:01):
topic, I am, you know, learningso much about this topic.
I am inviting people in who areexperts, and so that has led to
a few people pitching me thatsaid, hey, we heard your podcast
.
I love what you're doing.
Would you like to be on mypodcast or would you like to do
this thing?
And so I think it takes alittle bit of time and you have
(15:24):
to have some patience.
You know, hold the dream outthere, but show up and do the
work and and then theseopportunities will come about.
And and I think that's reallyone of the things is just having
doing that and having highquality guests and, you know,
continuing to put out content,like I'm going to celebrate this
(15:45):
with you on air, if we can.
I just launched my 70th episodeof my podcast.
Oh my gosh, how does that feel?
That feels amazing.
When I realized I was like ohmy gosh, number 70.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I mean, I just, I'm just thinking about like what,
like hearing you say that,because I know there's somebody
listening and what year did you,when did you launch your
podcast?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I launched it in January of 2024.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Okay, so someone is listening who maybe launched in
January 2025, right, and maybethey're only.
They haven't been superconsistent.
Maybe they've been trying, butmaybe they're on like episode 10
and they're like gosh episode70.
That sounds impossible.
That's like 30 away from ahundred.
Like Lisa's going to hit ahundred episodes pretty soon,
(16:37):
Like that's pretty significant.
But if you were that person youknow let's go back to, let's say
, april or May of 2024, do youhave any advice that you would
give to someone that's in thoseearlier months and stages of
launching their podcast?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, I think that's a great question and, as you
were talking, what was coming tomind is running.
So I used to be a runner and Iused to run races and we would
do hill training.
And hill training is such abear.
And I used to live inLouisville, kentucky, and I
(17:15):
lived near Iroquois Park, whichwas one of the main training
areas that people would go to,especially for the mini marathon
that was related to the Derby,and there was this hill they
called the bear.
They called it the bear becauseit was a mile straight up and I
ran the bear five days a weekat one point because that was
(17:36):
just like I would come home fromwork and that was how I dealt
with stress.
And here's what I learned aboutrunning up a hill you want to
look down right.
If you look up at the hill,you're going to feel really
tired because you're going to bethinking about how far you have
to go.
But if you just look straightdown, or you know just a little
ahead of you, all you see is theground and you don't see the
(17:59):
incline, even though you mayfeel it right.
You're not going to be able toget away from not feeling it,
but you're just going to seethat ground ahead of you, and to
me, that's really how I'vegotten to 70 episodes is by
looking just straight aheadrather than thinking about this
number.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Oh my gosh, so call me crazy.
So I'm a runner.
Right now.
I live in Houston, texas.
Folks, we're at, or below sealevel.
It is so flat here and I keepthinking about I want to run
that hill.
Now people are like there's noway I'm going to get to the end
(18:43):
of this thing, like this feelsimpossible, and I think that
that's where people feel whenthey think about downloads, or
they are like yes.
I'm going to get to my first10,000 downloads, or my first 1
million downloads, and it's justlike, oh my gosh, let's please
reframe it, rethink it and focuson something that is more
tangible.
And the thing for me that Ilove that really goes along with
what you're saying is theconsistency piece is like just
(19:06):
focus on consistency and maybespeaking a little bit better,
not stumbling over your words somuch or to your point getting
those right guests on.
I'm so curious in that vein,like from interviewing different
people on your show, is theresomething really specific about
interviewing that has helped youin other parts of your business
(19:28):
or in your content, or maybeeven speaking on stage?
I can't remember how often youinterview folks on your show.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Actually, to this point, a majority of my episodes
are interviews.
So I have probably interviewedI'm going to try to do math now
which creatives we try to getaway from it.
I would say I've done 65, Ithink 65 interviews Wow yeah.
So lots and lots of interviews,and I think what's been really
(19:59):
helpful about interviewing thathas helped me with the rest of
my business is that when I'mlistening to my guests and all
of my guests are part of myaudience, right, I, it's, it's
audience research always right.
So I'm, I'm paying attention inthe moment to that person, to
what they have to say, to how Ican, you know, let that
(20:23):
conversation we're having moveforward.
But then when I listen to itagain, I start listening to how
does this relate to the otherpeople that are also my
listeners, who happen to be mycustomers?
Because there is that greatsynergy, and so then I'll pay
attention to also who commentson the podcast, like who has
something to say and what hitthem, because, again, that's
(20:44):
market research and that helpsme understand what are the pain
points and how can I buildsomething in another part of my
business that might address thatpain point.
Another thing that I do and thisis me trying to work smart
rather than hard, and so, yeah,I have someone I'm going to do
this to, so I'm not going toname names, but if I'm going to
be on a panel and I have to readall of these people's books
(21:08):
because I'm a moderator, youbetter bet I'm probably going to
be asking these people forinterviews.
Like, would you like to be onmy podcast?
Because, again, saves me time.
Also, what I found is that thebest interviews end up being
content that I can teach, and sowe're recording this in May and
(21:30):
I'm getting ready to do awebinar for Jane Friedman and
this is going to be coming outafter that.
But what I can say is that Ithought about what are the four
or five episodes that had greatcontent that relate to this
subject and how can I do twothings Take these authors' words
(21:52):
and use their wisdom to teachthese concepts right, which
elevates those authors' work.
It also helps me spread the wordof the podcast and it gives
people something to listen tothat goes alongside it.
So we have this adjunctmaterial that they can listen to
.
So it's like, okay, I'm goingto teach you something for an
(22:13):
hour and 15 minutes If you wantto go deeper or you want to
understand this from a differentangle.
Here are different podcaststhat you can listen to that are
going to help you understandwhat I'm doing, and so these are
some of the ways that I use itsynergistically within my
business.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, I mean, and it makes the calls to action so
easy, right, Like if you'respeaking on stage and you're
like I don't really have anoffer right now or I'm not
really working one-on-one, but Ihave this big opportunity to
get in front of this audience,what is my call to action?
And it's really simple.
You can just say go listen tomy podcast.
(22:50):
Even better if you have a veryspecific episode.
That that audience can benefitfrom, and so I think that that's
a lovely way to tie everythingtogether, because I feel like,
after a while and this is forthose of you that are just
getting started with yourcontent things really start to
blend together in a beautifulway where maybe you heard
something from one of yourclients and with the work that
you do, lisa, I imagine it wouldprobably be anonymous, right?
(23:13):
So you would say I was workingwith someone the other day and
maybe you could share a littlebit about that interaction, of
working together on your podcast.
You can mention that in yournewsletter, but the idea is to
again work smarter, not harder,and have all of those lines kind
of blurred together, because atthe end of the day, you're
showing up and you're servingthat audience in such a lovely
(23:35):
way.
And while you were talkingabout your interviews, I thought
you know one thing that youprobably haven't even.
Maybe you're aware of this,maybe you're not, but I think
that listening is also a lovelyskill that you learn from doing
so many interviews that I betwhen you're interacting with
people, you're going tonetworking events, you're
(23:56):
meeting people at industryevents that you are likely
listening to them in a muchdeeper way than you were prior
to starting your podcast.
I don't know.
I say that out loud and I'mlike, well, maybe not because
she has, you know, a backgroundin, you know the training that
you do, but I don't know, Doesthat resonate with you at all?
Because I think that podcastinghas made me a profoundly better
(24:19):
speaker and listener.
But I don't know, has that beenyour experience?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I will say yes and no .
So I will say I have anadvantage and that I have a
graduate degree in clinicalmental health counseling and so
when I was doing that work wewere videotaped.
So the program I had was reallyintense and in the beginning we
would counsel each other andthese were all videotaped, and
then the videotapes would beanalyzed with our professor.
And I had this really hardprofessor and he would get you
(24:55):
for anything and one of thethings was like are you moving
your hands?
And he would tell you fidgetslowly, and he would actually
time how long you allowed thesilence to go.
So I learned some differentskills.
I learned, you know, a skillthat every podcaster can use is
that when someone speaks, orwhen you actually, when you ask
(25:15):
a question, or if they'respeaking, count in your head to
three, it's probably going tofeel like hours have gone by,
but it will actually not be thatlong.
So that was a strategy that Ilearned.
But, to your point, crystal, Iactually did become better at it
when I started podcastingbecause once again, I was being
(25:36):
videotaped and I would watchthose videotapes and I would
listen back to myself and Iwould start to think have I
given that person enough time toanswer or did I just start
speaking when they were stillprocessing?
And so, as I did that and I didit non-judgmentally, because I
think, especially with video, wecan start looking at ourselves
(25:58):
and going like, oh, that face Imade or my voice sounded, oh,
like, oh, that face I made or myvoice sounded.
And so if you can just pauseand say, can I be curious about
what's happening so that I canimprove, then you can take in
this data and say, okay, yeah,this part went really well.
Or oh, here's a growth edge,right, this is something that I
can work on.
And then choose one skill Like,don't try to make everything
(26:21):
better, choose one skill andmaybe that skill is pausing so
that you are giving yourselftime to think about it, or
you're giving your guests timeto process what you have just
shared with them.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Oh my gosh, like I feel like you just gave so many
nuggets of really good tips Likethese are so helpful.
I remember back in thebeginning and I will still find
myself doing it from time totime.
But if you haven't heard thistip before, I shared it a long
time ago and I'll share it everyonce in a while.
But I sit on my hands.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I used to sit on my hands.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I don't do it as much now, but when people are
talking, I will sit on my handsand I'm like Crystal, that is
your physical cue.
You shut your mouth, you mouth.
Do you do anything else?
Let the other person speak.
So I love all of these tips andI love the idea.
You're like yeah, we're already, we're recording this, we have
video, we have proof of what wecan work on and what we can
improve.
But I feel like we've beentalking about a lot of really
(27:15):
kind of sunshiny, rainbow thingswith our, you know, speaking
and content and businesses andpodcasts.
But I'm so curious and thiscould be for your writing
journey or for creating contentfor your podcast but have there
been any big mistakes or biglessons learned that you would
love to share from your journeywith the audience today?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, I'm so glad you went there because I think it
is important to be real.
Right, we want to keep it real,because it's not rainbows and
sunshine every day.
You know, you are on the hillright, you're on the bear and
you're putting one foot in frontof the other, and some days
that's really hard, and I thinkfor me, one of the challenges
that I faced is that I startedthis podcast.
(28:02):
I was really enthusiastic aboutit.
I did something that I think wasreally helpful is I recorded 10
episodes before I launched, soI had this in advance and as I
was recording these episodes andI had this hard launch date and
I had all of these things inplace, my dad ended up having a
major, major cardiac event, andthat cardiac event wasn't just a
(28:24):
one-off situation.
He has congestive heart failure,which is chronic.
So what?
That means that, as his primarycaregiver living in another
state, I will sometimesencounter these unpredictable
crises or events that require meto travel or that require my
(28:47):
attention in a way that takes itaway from the podcast, or it
puts me in a situation where I'mtrying to balance two things at
the same time, you know, my dadand my podcast, oh, by the way
and my business, and I'm awriter and so making time to
write and, oh my, there havedefinitely been times where I've
struggled to balance it all, tofigure out how to make it work.
(29:10):
And when that happens, and whenI get tired right, especially
when I get tired I get a littlecrunchy and then I'm like why am
I doing this?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Should I quit?
Is it worth it?
And then I'll think, okay, whatare the download numbers?
Give me some metric to make itbetter.
And of course, you and I'vetalked about this.
That does not make it better,it actually puts more pressure
on you.
So, yeah, that has certainlybeen a huge growth.
Edge for me is how can I begentle with myself and build
(29:43):
great processes so that I canweather all of the unpredictable
things that happen in life?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, and I think that I mean kudos to you for for
figuring it out, because I andI know I'm sure it's not like a
beautiful thing behind thescenes to like.
I mean, and you even said ityourself it's like I don't wanna
say, don't we all Cause that'skind of, you know, gaslighting
(30:16):
of like.
Yeah, you know I'm not gonnavalidate your feelings, but at
the same time, it truly doeshappen to everyone.
So, instead of people justthinking like it's always gonna
be, you know, no bumps, nobruises, like no hiccups along
the way.
It will absolutely happen.
It just depends on that flavorof the day, Like you just never
know.
(30:36):
It could be electricity one day, like your electricity goes out
, it could be the whole streetdecides to start mowing their
lawn at the same time.
It's like you just never knowwhat that thing's going to be.
So I think, finding thatflexibility and, you know,
understanding with maybeyourself or your guest or
whatever going on is such abeautiful thing to just adapt
(30:59):
and just say you know what?
I'm here for the long game, andit sounds like you've already
committed to that, and well,we'll just see, see how it goes.
But do you have any like onespecific um, I'm trying to think
of like specifically forpodcasting?
Do you have like a story toshare of like you, a guest
didn't show up, or maybe likemicrophone tech issues, or
(31:22):
something that you were able to,like, figure it out in the
moment, or it was something thatyou just couldn't recover and
you had to reschedule or justsay we'll try again another day?
Has any of that happened to you?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Oh, there have definitely been tech snafus and
what I found is that techproblems are going to happen and
I'm blessed, in my case, that Ihave a computer that I use and
a laptop.
So there have been times whereyou know, I have this beautiful
microphone, I have this setupthat you see, that has the
(31:58):
lighting that I like, and thenthere have been times where it
just didn't work.
My computer locked up and it'slike, okay, what are we going to
do as a backup and can wereschedule if needed?
Can we give ourselves somegrace that things are going to
happen?
And yeah, I think a lot of itcomes down to self-talk, like,
(32:19):
how are you talking to yourselfabout what's happening versus
what is happening?
Because if you startcatastrophizing, which you know,
right before we came on, mycomputer locked up and there was
a part of me that's like laptopand there was a part of me
that's like, ah, I'm supposed todo this thing and it just
happened.
And then I had to, like, take adeep breath and be like, yeah,
(32:41):
that's overwhelming, we don'twant this to happen, it's not
what we intended.
And then I said, okay, what aremy options?
So I got out my laptop and then, you know, told you what was
happening and then my computerdecided to come back online and
we figured it out.
But I think it was about mepausing and saying, yeah, it's
okay and I'll tell a littlefunny story.
That's not actually a techglitch, but I think, for people
(33:03):
who are starting on YouTube,this is something that happened
to me early on and it'ssomething I still have to think
about.
Is that when I started, youknow, at first doing the podcast
, and it's funny because I'vebeen on video for many years in
different ways.
But now I'm listening, right,and you're when you're listening
, you're still, and and when Iwas first doing this, I was
(33:26):
working on Zoom, just becausethat was the easiest way and so
you can see yourself.
And I remember trying to listento my guests and also going
what is happening to my face?
Does my face know what to do?
Like, my face has forgotten howto be a face.
Like, why do I have thatstrange look?
What is happening here?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
you just made someone's day, you just made my
day, saying that.
But I'm like, oh my gosh, I'mso glad Lisa said it, because I
feel like everyone has done thatand it's not only that, it's
what people will come to me,because I've had people say how
do you do that on video?
And I'm like, yeah, do what.
And they're like, no, how doyou do that?
And I'm like, what?
(34:14):
Like what is the that thatyou're talking about?
They're like how are youlooking into the camera?
Yet maybe someone is likeoffset to the side.
Like, how do you do that and notlook at the screen and how do
you do this?
And I'm like guys, this issince 2018.
Like I've just like there'sthings that you learn and you
adapt and you go and you flowwith all the different pieces of
it.
And I think that being willingto show up, even if it's just
(34:35):
you, even if it's just you onZoom no one else is even there,
it's just you Like be willing tolearn and fail and look a
little silly or make somemistakes and say you know what,
it's okay, cause I'm in it forthe long haul.
I think we'll make all thedifference in the world and so
thank you so much for sharingthat, because I know exactly
what you're talking about.
Like, I remember somebody toldme a long time ago I don't
(34:58):
remember if it was like a PatFlynn or Amy Porterfield, marie
Forleo, like someone really bigin the online business space,
and they said oh yeah, you'resupposed to blink when you're in
an interview, and I just itnever left my mind.
I can't remember who said it,but it just I always remember.
If I'm on a call, I'm like ohyeah, blink, blink.
So you don't look like you arebeing interrogated and you're
(35:20):
shocked like what's happening.
So, oh my gosh, that's such agood tip.
But okay, as we're lookingahead to the rest of 2025 and
all the things that you havecoming up for your business and
your content, is there somethingthat you're really excited?
Are you trying something new?
Are you looking at your contentin a different way?
(35:40):
Like, tell us all the thingsthat you have coming up, lisa.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Well, I'll tell you the thing that I am most excited
about, and that is that I amtaking a break and I think this
is really important for peopleto hear is that breaks are
important.
I am going to because I have somany podcast episodes.
We're going to have a best ofseries and you know I've already
got the dates.
I'm going to redo the introsand the outros so that it all
(36:06):
makes sense and it's not just mehosting the same content Again.
There's a context within all ofit.
But you know, this is somethingI learned from Marie Forleo is
that you have to have these downtimes, right.
If you're constantly going andgoing and going, you cannot
improve your business becauseyou cannot reflect on where
you've been or imagine where youwant to be.
(36:28):
And so in July, I am taking off, and I've done this as a third
year in a row and sometimes thatmeans I'm working really,
really hard in other parts ofthe year.
So it's not like, oh, this isjust easy, but I'm going to have
that time to reflect and I willhave a master class in the fall
.
That I am very excited about.
(36:49):
This is going to be a newprogram and it's something
people have been asking for.
People have been saying we needthis now, and they've been
asking for the book version.
Right, and I am working on thebook version, but books take
time, and I was like you know,why do I not have this packaged
in a certain way for people now?
Because this is somethingpeople need now.
(37:10):
And then I'm also working onthe book right, it doesn't have
to be an either, or it can be aboth, and so I'm really excited
about that and having time toplan and do that work, because
I'm not going to see clients inAugust.
That's another choice that I'mmaking so that I have the time
to really get that together, sothat people can get on the
(37:31):
waiting list now, and so beingon my sub stack is going to be
the best way.
And as I'm doing this, the otherthing I'm really thinking about
and this is where that thatsummer downtime is going to come
into play is that you know,when people hear that I'm a
trauma informed writing coachand they hear the word trauma,
what they think is like oh, youwant me to write about the
(37:53):
horrors of my life, or I onlyqualify to work with you if I
have a horrific life, so thenwhat happens is that people are
thinking about this in this,what I will say, the way of pain
right, and not the way ofpossibility.
And so when I think about theenergy that I want to put into
(38:16):
this program, where do I wantpeople to be Right?
So, when we think about ouraudience and we think about
customer offerings, we want tothink about the pain points like
what do people want?
We also want to think aboutwhere do we want them to be, and
I want them to free their voice.
I want them to find their power.
I want them to feel like theycan do anything right.
(38:36):
I want them to have thesefeelings, and this work that I
do, which I've been doing forabout 12 years now, actually
helps people do that.
Now it's just going to be inthis structured program, so I
don't have the title yet, butthat's going to be part of the
subtitle.
I already know that.
So find your voice and findyour power.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I love that so much.
Yeah, and I know we're going tohave links to your sub stack
and if you have that waitlistpage, we're going to get that in
there, because I think that allof this is so good.
I know that there's a lot ofaspiring writers in the audience
, and so I want y'all to gocheck this out and go learn from
Lisa.
Go listen to her podcast.
Like at a minimum, you need togo listen to her podcast Writing
(39:17):
your Resiliency and I just.
This has been such a fantasticconversation today, lisa, and I
thank you so much for coming on.
Are you up for our rapid firequestions before we let you go?
Why, yes, I am Okay.
Well, let's just jump right in.
So the first one is what's apiece of advice that you would
(39:37):
give to a brand new podcaster orcontent creator?
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I would say let progress, not perfection, be
your North Star and allowyourself to just do the work.
There's this whole study aroundhow you know, they had people
try to make one perfect pot andthen they had other people try
to make one perfect pot and thenthey had other people try to
make all the pots they could andthe people who actually made
the best pots were the ones whomade lots of them.
So you know, just go and do thework, and what you're hoping to
(40:05):
create will happen through theprocess.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I love that one foot in front of the other on the
bear right.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Go and head down and go climb the bear.
Okay, what is?
Uh?
My next question is what is thedream podcast you would love to
be on and who is your dreampodcast guest you'd love to
interview?
Speaker 1 (40:24):
I would love to be on .
We can do hard things.
I would love to be on thatpodcast and I actually believe
it or not.
No two people who have been onthat podcast Amazing.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
What about?
Who would you love to interview?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Oh, there are so many people.
But when I was thinking aboutthis, two people came to mind
Elizabeth Gilbert, because she'sso wise and she's such a
fantastic writer, and Dan Harris, because he's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yes, yes, oh my gosh, these are so good.
And now I'm thinking about Ithink that you may be the third
or fourth person who said we cando hard things.
So I mean, it's happened like.
We've had people like this isthis is your place to put it out
into the universe.
It's happened before, so okay.
Last question Do you consideryourself a perfectionist?
Speaker 1 (41:13):
I would say I am a perfectionist in recovery, so
can that come out now?
Yes, it can Case in point whatwas I thinking about my face,
but I also have learned overtime to give myself a lot more
grace.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Oh, I love that so much, Lisa.
Lisa, this has been so much funtoday.
Where can everyone connect withyou and learn more about all
the things that you're doing?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, I would say, go to my website,
lisacooperellisoncom, and if youwant to sign up for my sub
stack, which will give you mypodcast episodes in your inbox
every week, you can go tolisacooperellisonsubstackcom.
You can also go to writing yourresilience podcastcom If you
just want to get access to thepodcast.
And I would say I'm also onYouTube at Lisa Cooper Ellison
(42:00):
and that is a great place tojust leave a comment.
And one thing that I havestarted doing, which I know
you're doing to crystal, is thatI give shout outs on my podcast
when people give me comments,and it has been so much fun
because I'm getting morecomments right, more people are
writing to me and then theywrite to me personally when they
hear their name about how muchit means to them, so you could
(42:22):
hear your name on my show.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yes, I love this so much.
I love that you're doing thisbecause I think it is so fun and
it's such a great way just togive a little something back to
your audience.
So I love that you're doingthat.
But, lisa, this has been sogood.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Thank you so much for having me, Crystal.
It's been an absolute pleasure,Well.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I hope that you enjoyed this chat with Lisa as
much as I did, because it was sofun getting to hear her story,
how she helps people, but alsojust the journey of being a
creator, showing up consistentlyand all of that hard work
really paying off.
So make sure you go listen toher podcast.
(43:02):
If you are a writer in any sortof capacity, please go listen
and learn from the powerfulstories that Lisa shares on her
show and just go check it out,because it is so worth listening
to.
But that's all I have for youtoday.
So make sure you follow andsubscribe to learn more about
digital marketing strategies,content strategies and
(43:24):
everything else in between.
And, as always, remember, keepit up.
We all have to start somewhere.
And this is the thing that I have learned time and
time again whatever industryyou're in because you know if
you're listening to this podcast, you could be in any industry
and it certainly may not be minebut these industries are small
and you never know what thatperson who's sitting in front of
you is going to do in theirlife and how, what role they're
(00:22):
going to play in your life.
You just have no idea.
And it may just be that you'vehad a lovely interaction, right,
it doesn't have to be that.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to thinkabout everybody Like what are
they going to do?
It could just be you've had alovely interaction and that
interaction energizes you andgives you confidence to have the
next lovely interaction withsomeone else.
Or maybe they're having a roughday and you've made their day,
(00:44):
and who knows what that's goingto open up for them.
I mean, it's just that simpleand clear.
And I think if everyone couldjust approach things that way
and I don't want to say everyone, because we all have our own
journeys, but I would say,imagine what the world would be
like if more of us approachedeverything that way.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Welcome to the Profit Podcast, where we teach you how
to start, launch and marketyour content with confidence.
I'm your host, crystal Profit,and I'm so excited that you're
here.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday, because if you've been
trying to figure out the worldof content creation, this is the
show that will help be yourtime-saving shortcut.
So let's get right to it, shallwe All?
(01:29):
Right, profit Podcast listeners, we have an extra special guest
on the show today.
Welcome, lisa.
How?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
are you?
I am doing wonderful today.
Thank you so much for having meon your show, Crystal.
It is just such a pleasure tosee you today.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, I'm so happy to chat with you.
So, lisa and I I feel like wego way back I mean, in reality
it hasn't been that long butalso it feels like I am very
familiar with your content andthe things that you're creating
because we work together in afew different ways.
But can you please telleverybody what type of content
(02:03):
creator you are and thedifferent ways that you create
content today and a little bitabout yourself?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, so my name is Lisa Cooper Ellison and I'm a
trauma-informed writing coach.
I'm going to say what that isvery quickly, because people
always ask like what the what?
Okay, so a trauma-informedwriting coach is someone who
understands what trauma is, howit impacts the nervous system,
and the biggest thing that I dofor people, regardless of the
types of projects they'reworking on, is I help them
(02:31):
regulate their nervous system sothey can maximize their
creativity.
And so the podcast which is oneof the biggest content creation
projects that I have is Writingyour Resilience, and this is a
podcast that is geared towardsanyone who wants to use the
writing process to understandtheir life, and so the tagline
(02:52):
is the more you work on yourstory, you will change lives,
especially your own, and that'sbecause, as we understand more
about ourselves, that ripplesout into everything, and to me,
that is more important thanactually publishing a book,
which I know will sound reallyodd to people who are writing,
because part of my role is I dohelp people, as a writing coach,
(03:14):
publish their books.
But if you don't understandyour story that you're telling
yourself, you can have all kindsof outward success and feel
miserable inside, so that innerwork that we do is so important,
and that's one of the things Ireally love to explore on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Okay, I'm so grateful that you explained all of that,
because it is, I think, that bydefinition.
We could go a bunch ofdifferent ways on what trauma
writing is, and I'm so curious.
So I know a little bit aboutyour background, but can you
share?
Before the podcast came about,was this something that you were
doing in your professional life, how did you actually get into
(03:57):
this and what did that look like?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, so I have to go back to 2012.
I am one of those people that Isay I got 2012 because I had
this goal of becoming atherapist and working for an
agency.
And all of my friends who werein graduate school with me they
were like, oh, I can't wait toget in private practice and have
my own business.
(04:20):
And I was like, you know, Ithink I really want to work at
an agency and get a paycheck.
And then I ended up, you know,doing that work and getting Lyme
disease and I got so sick thatI had to stop working.
And when I stopped working, Igot really clear about what was
important to me, and writing wasa huge piece of it.
(04:43):
So I loved everything I'dlearned about mental health and
I knew I wanted that to be apiece of what I did.
But writing, which had beenthis long-term goal, was also
important to me, and so, over aperiod of time and with the help
of many people who supported meon my journey, I ended up
learning so much about writingthat I started teaching writing
(05:05):
classes and I did some speaking,and then I built a business,
and so I started my business, Iwould say, in a baby way in
2015,.
I just kind of said I think I'mgoing to be an editor.
I just put it out there.
I didn't know anything aboutbusiness.
I do not come from the businessworld Like you come from the
business world.
I've been like, hey, we'regoing to do this thing and we're
(05:26):
going to figure it out, andthat's why I love working with
you, because you helped mefigure it out.
But I, I did that work and andI slowly built my business over
time.
I went full time in 2019.
And then, during the pandemic,when everything went online, it
actually allowed my business toskyrocket, because initially I
(05:49):
was working locally and thensuddenly I had access to this
national and internationalaudience.
And so I'm a person who is anintrovert.
I need a lot of time alone andI've been on social media.
An introvert, I need a lot oftime alone and I've been on
social media and I think youwere talking in a recent episode
(06:09):
of your podcast about how youwere on Facebook before Facebook
was used for business, and Iwas on Facebook and I've been on
some of the other platforms,but it just doesn't speak to me
and it didn't speak to the kindsof relationships I wanted to
build, and so people kept sayingto me you should run a podcast,
you should start a podcast,lisa, and there was a part of me
(06:30):
that's like no, that's tooscary, I don't want to do it.
But then I had this momentwhere I was like, yeah, I need
to start a podcast, and so I did, with the help of one of your
classes and some other supportsthat I had, and so what I've
loved about this process is thatit allows me to engage
(06:52):
authentically with people.
I get to know them, I'mbuilding new relationships and
it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, oh, my gosh.
Well, I thank you so much forsharing your journey and, like I
said earlier, like I'm sograteful that you're you've made
it into our universe here, youknow, for all the content
creating that we're doing, and Ithink that and I don't know if
anyone's ever given you thiscompliment, so I'm going to take
this opportunity to do it.
You have an incredible podcastvoice, and so I don't know if
(07:21):
that comes from your training asa therapist, but it is very
because, again, lisa and I'veworked together.
I've listened to severalepisodes of her podcast, and
more than just a casual listener.
Right, lisa went through thisprocess where she had asked me
to audit her podcast, so I waslistening to what she was
talking about and I was justlike gosh, it feels like I'm
(07:42):
sitting in a therapy session asfar as, like, this is a very
soothing conversation thatyou're having with your guests,
or sometimes it's that kick inthe pants that's like, hey, you
know, this is what we need tohear, whether it's, you know,
encouraging someone in a moreloving way, and I don't know.
So, if you've never heard that,I wanted to give you this
(08:03):
compliment because you do havesuch an incredible podcast voice
.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Oh well, thank you so much.
That makes my day and my heartis full hearing it.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yes, absolutely Well, I wanted to and I kind of
prefaced before we startedrecording that, lisa, and you
already mentioned this thatyou've done a lot of speaking,
and this is something that manypeople in this audience
specifically aspire to do.
Eventually, maybe they startedtheir podcast and they think, oh
, one day, maybe this industryevent will recognize what I'm
(08:37):
doing, they'll do a search onwho should we have to speak at
our event.
My podcast will pop up and thenI'll just you know, but like
the, the note from you know, theGmail gods will come to my
inbox and it will say pleasecome speak at our event.
Um, but I think that it'ssomething that it's very
mysterious how do you go fromcreating content online to
(09:00):
actually speaking at events?
And I would just love to hearsome of your experience that
you've had.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, and I think that is a dream of everyone.
Right, I'm going to bediscovered by the powers that be
because I have done somethingmagnificent and what I would say
, and a colleague of mine whodoes so much in the field of
writing, Jane Friedman, we havethis conversation once that that
doesn't happen for anyonereally.
(09:28):
I mean, maybe there's someone Iknow that now that I've said
this someone is going to emailand say but it happened to me,
and so if it did, kudos to you.
But for the rest of us, a lotof it has to do with networking
and that can sound like thissuper fancy pants, scary, oh my
gosh, I have to like put on abusiness suit and do this like
(09:48):
special thing kind of experience, but it's not.
And so, you know, one of myfirst big speaking engagements,
which I'm really proud of andalso scared me to death, was
being on NPR.
So I was on an NPR show andthis is how it ended up I was at
(10:09):
a writing conference and I wasworkshopping my work with other
people and I was just a decenthuman being.
Right, that's how I was adecent human being who paid
attention, who listened, whogave them good feedback, who was
interested in what they had tosay and I didn't know that one
(10:31):
of the people in this classhappened to be an assistant
producer at NPR and then I hadthis lucky publication.
That happened.
I happened to say to my groupbecause I had told them before
hey, if you have something, Iwill support you.
Please send me an email withwhatever you've done and I will
share it with the people that Iknow.
So I was just following suitwith everyone else and said, hey
(10:55):
, I have this publication.
And she ended up taking it toher producer and her producer
was like I think I want thisperson on the show and there are
so many times where just beinga good friend not that idea that
, oh, you're that person who hasaccess to something, or if I
speak to you and I smile realbright or I pitch you, you're
(11:17):
going to give me someopportunity.
That's not what I did.
I was just like, oh, let's tryto be friends, let's see what we
have in common and that getsyou so far.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yes, oh my gosh, and I think that there's something
to be said because, like yousaid, it's so simple, but it's
also, I think, the thing thatand I don't really know how to
label it, but I do find thatthere's a lot of people that
will be opportunistic.
Whenever someone enters a roomor say you go to an industry
(11:52):
event and, all of a sudden, thefounder of the company is there,
or that one person that you'vealways wanted to meet, how can I
add value to that person's dayor give them something that
would hopefully be?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
memorable instead of trying to take for myself.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I think that that's what people default to, whether
it's like our upbringing orwhether it's how we were, you
know like, brought up in thisworld.
I have no idea what it is, butI feel I have the same reaction
as you, kind of like how can Ijust add value to this person's
day and treat them like a humanbeing?
And hopefully they'll walk awayfeeling like, huh, that was a
(12:32):
good interaction.
Or I wouldn't mind standing inline at you know the coffee line
with them for the next 10minutes while we're waiting in
between sessions or something ifyou're at an event, while we're
waiting in between sessions orsomething if you're at an event.
So I think that all that to saybeing just a decent human and
showing up to offer value tosomeone else's day can get you
(12:53):
so far, would you agree?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Oh, my gosh.
It gets you so much fartherthan you can ever imagine.
And this is the thing that Ihave learned time and time again
, Whatever industry you're in,because, if you're listening to
this podcast, you could be inany industry ever imagined.
And this is the thing that Ihave learned time and time again
whatever industry you're in,because you know, if you're
listening to this podcast, youcould be in any industry, and it
certainly may not be mine, butthese industries are small and
you never know who, what thatperson who's sitting in front of
(13:18):
you is going to do in theirlife and how, what role they're
going to play in your life.
You just have no idea.
And it may just be that you'vehad a lovely interaction, right?
It doesn't have to be that.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to thinkabout everybody, Like what are
they going to do?
It could just be you've had alovely interaction and that
(13:38):
interaction energizes you andgives you confidence to have the
next lovely interaction withsomeone else.
Or maybe they're having a roughday and you've made their day,
and who knows what that's goingto open up for them.
I mean, it's just that simpleand clear and I think if
everyone could just approachthings that way and I don't want
to say everyone, because we allhave our own journeys, but I
(13:58):
would say, imagine what theworld would be like if more of
us approached everything thatway.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yes, I totally agree.
And now that I'm thinking aboutyou know you getting approached
to speak and having yourpodcast and doing your business,
you know all of it kind of goeshand in hand together.
Is there something reallyspecific with your podcast that
has helped you in speaking onstage or going to these bigger
(14:25):
events?
Like I'm so curious, like whatthe synergy is between, like,
creating regular content andthen leveraging that into a
speaking topic or a discussion.
Has it helped in that way?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, I would say that having this podcast number
one, I would say it improves myspeaking skills.
So if you are a beginnerpodcaster, you're like, oh, I
really want to do these things.
How can I learn how to be abetter speaker?
Well, start a podcast and startspeaking, and that's going to
help.
But the more I do this, themore I become a subject matter
expert.
Just by the fact that I'mcontinuing to talk about this
(15:01):
topic, I am, you know, learningso much about this topic.
I am inviting people in who areexperts, and so that has led to
a few people pitching me thatsaid, hey, we heard your podcast
.
I love what you're doing.
Would you like to be on mypodcast or would you like to do
this thing?
And so I think it takes alittle bit of time and you have
(15:24):
to have some patience.
You know, hold the dream outthere, but show up and do the
work and and then theseopportunities will come about.
And and I think that's reallyone of the things is just having
doing that and having highquality guests and, you know,
continuing to put out content,like I'm going to celebrate this
(15:45):
with you on air, if we can.
I just launched my 70th episodeof my podcast.
Oh my gosh, how does that feel?
That feels amazing.
When I realized I was like ohmy gosh, number 70.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I mean, I just, I'm just thinking about like what,
like hearing you say that,because I know there's somebody
listening and what year did you,when did you launch your
podcast?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
I launched it in January of 2024.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Okay, so someone is listening who maybe launched in
January 2025, right, and maybethey're only.
They haven't been superconsistent.
Maybe they've been trying, butmaybe they're on like episode 10
and they're like gosh episode70.
That sounds impossible.
That's like 30 away from ahundred.
Like Lisa's going to hit ahundred episodes pretty soon,
(16:37):
Like that's pretty significant.
But if you were that person youknow let's go back to, let's say
, april or May of 2024, do youhave any advice that you would
give to someone that's in thoseearlier months and stages of
launching their podcast?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, I think that's a great question and, as you
were talking, what was coming tomind is running.
So I used to be a runner and Iused to run races and we would
do hill training.
And hill training is such abear.
And I used to live inLouisville, kentucky, and I
(17:15):
lived near Iroquois Park, whichwas one of the main training
areas that people would go to,especially for the mini marathon
that was related to the Derby,and there was this hill they
called the bear.
They called it the bear becauseit was a mile straight up and I
ran the bear five days a weekat one point because that was
(17:36):
just like I would come home fromwork and that was how I dealt
with stress.
And here's what I learned aboutrunning up a hill you want to
look down right.
If you look up at the hill,you're going to feel really
tired because you're going to bethinking about how far you have
to go.
But if you just look straightdown, or you know just a little
ahead of you, all you see is theground and you don't see the
(17:59):
incline, even though you mayfeel it right.
You're not going to be able toget away from not feeling it,
but you're just going to seethat ground ahead of you, and to
me, that's really how I'vegotten to 70 episodes is by
looking just straight aheadrather than thinking about this
number.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Oh my gosh, so call me crazy.
So I'm a runner.
Right now.
I live in Houston, texas.
Folks, we're at, or below sealevel.
It is so flat here and I keepthinking about I want to run
that hill.
Now people are like there's noway I'm going to get to the end
(18:43):
of this thing, like this feelsimpossible, and I think that
that's where people feel whenthey think about downloads, or
they are like yes.
I'm going to get to my first10,000 downloads, or my first 1
million downloads, and it's justlike, oh my gosh, let's please
reframe it, rethink it and focuson something that is more
tangible.
And the thing for me that Ilove that really goes along with
what you're saying is theconsistency piece is like just
(19:06):
focus on consistency and maybespeaking a little bit better,
not stumbling over your words somuch or to your point getting
those right guests on.
I'm so curious in that vein,like from interviewing different
people on your show, is theresomething really specific about
interviewing that has helped youin other parts of your business
(19:28):
or in your content, or maybeeven speaking on stage?
I can't remember how often youinterview folks on your show.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Actually, to this point, a majority of my episodes
are interviews.
So I have probably interviewedI'm going to try to do math now
which creatives we try to getaway from it.
I would say I've done 65, Ithink 65 interviews Wow yeah.
So lots and lots of interviews,and I think what's been really
(19:59):
helpful about interviewing thathas helped me with the rest of
my business is that when I'mlistening to my guests and all
of my guests are part of myaudience, right, I, it's, it's
audience research always right.
So I'm, I'm paying attention inthe moment to that person, to
what they have to say, to how Ican, you know, let that
(20:23):
conversation we're having moveforward.
But then when I listen to itagain, I start listening to how
does this relate to the otherpeople that are also my
listeners, who happen to be mycustomers?
Because there is that greatsynergy, and so then I'll pay
attention to also who commentson the podcast, like who has
something to say and what hitthem, because, again, that's
(20:44):
market research and that helpsme understand what are the pain
points and how can I buildsomething in another part of my
business that might address thatpain point.
Another thing that I do and thisis me trying to work smart
rather than hard, and so, yeah,I have someone I'm going to do
this to, so I'm not going toname names, but if I'm going to
be on a panel and I have to readall of these people's books
(21:08):
because I'm a moderator, youbetter bet I'm probably going to
be asking these people forinterviews.
Like, would you like to be onmy podcast?
Because, again, saves me time.
Also, what I found is that thebest interviews end up being
content that I can teach, and sowe're recording this in May and
(21:30):
I'm getting ready to do awebinar for Jane Friedman and
this is going to be coming outafter that.
But what I can say is that Ithought about what are the four
or five episodes that had greatcontent that relate to this
subject and how can I do twothings Take these authors' words
(21:52):
and use their wisdom to teachthese concepts right, which
elevates those authors' work.
It also helps me spread the wordof the podcast and it gives
people something to listen tothat goes alongside it.
So we have this adjunctmaterial that they can listen to
.
So it's like, okay, I'm goingto teach you something for an
(22:13):
hour and 15 minutes If you wantto go deeper or you want to
understand this from a differentangle.
Here are different podcaststhat you can listen to that are
going to help you understandwhat I'm doing, and so these are
some of the ways that I use itsynergistically within my
business.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, I mean, and it makes the calls to action so
easy, right, Like if you'respeaking on stage and you're
like I don't really have anoffer right now or I'm not
really working one-on-one, but Ihave this big opportunity to
get in front of this audience,what is my call to action?
And it's really simple.
You can just say go listen tomy podcast.
(22:50):
Even better if you have a veryspecific episode.
That that audience can benefitfrom, and so I think that that's
a lovely way to tie everythingtogether, because I feel like,
after a while and this is forthose of you that are just
getting started with yourcontent things really start to
blend together in a beautifulway where maybe you heard
something from one of yourclients and with the work that
you do, lisa, I imagine it wouldprobably be anonymous, right?
(23:13):
So you would say I was workingwith someone the other day and
maybe you could share a littlebit about that interaction, of
working together on your podcast.
You can mention that in yournewsletter, but the idea is to
again work smarter, not harder,and have all of those lines kind
of blurred together, because atthe end of the day, you're
showing up and you're servingthat audience in such a lovely
(23:35):
way.
And while you were talkingabout your interviews, I thought
you know one thing that youprobably haven't even.
Maybe you're aware of this,maybe you're not, but I think
that listening is also a lovelyskill that you learn from doing
so many interviews that I betwhen you're interacting with
people, you're going tonetworking events, you're
(23:56):
meeting people at industryevents that you are likely
listening to them in a muchdeeper way than you were prior
to starting your podcast.
I don't know.
I say that out loud and I'mlike, well, maybe not because
she has, you know, a backgroundin, you know the training that
you do, but I don't know, Doesthat resonate with you at all?
Because I think that podcastinghas made me a profoundly better
(24:19):
speaker and listener.
But I don't know, has that beenyour experience?
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I will say yes and no .
So I will say I have anadvantage and that I have a
graduate degree in clinicalmental health counseling and so
when I was doing that work wewere videotaped.
So the program I had was reallyintense and in the beginning we
would counsel each other andthese were all videotaped, and
then the videotapes would beanalyzed with our professor.
And I had this really hardprofessor and he would get you
(24:55):
for anything and one of thethings was like are you moving
your hands?
And he would tell you fidgetslowly, and he would actually
time how long you allowed thesilence to go.
So I learned some differentskills.
I learned, you know, a skillthat every podcaster can use is
that when someone speaks, orwhen you actually, when you ask
(25:15):
a question, or if they'respeaking, count in your head to
three, it's probably going tofeel like hours have gone by,
but it will actually not be thatlong.
So that was a strategy that Ilearned.
But, to your point, crystal, Iactually did become better at it
when I started podcastingbecause once again, I was being
(25:36):
videotaped and I would watchthose videotapes and I would
listen back to myself and Iwould start to think have I
given that person enough time toanswer or did I just start
speaking when they were stillprocessing?
And so, as I did that and I didit non-judgmentally, because I
think, especially with video, wecan start looking at ourselves
(25:58):
and going like, oh, that face Imade or my voice sounded, oh,
like, oh, that face I made or myvoice sounded.
And so if you can just pauseand say, can I be curious about
what's happening so that I canimprove, then you can take in
this data and say, okay, yeah,this part went really well.
Or oh, here's a growth edge,right, this is something that I
can work on.
And then choose one skill Like,don't try to make everything
(26:21):
better, choose one skill andmaybe that skill is pausing so
that you are giving yourselftime to think about it, or
you're giving your guests timeto process what you have just
shared with them.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Oh my gosh, like I feel like you just gave so many
nuggets of really good tips Likethese are so helpful.
I remember back in thebeginning and I will still find
myself doing it from time totime.
But if you haven't heard thistip before, I shared it a long
time ago and I'll share it everyonce in a while.
But I sit on my hands.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I used to sit on my hands.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I don't do it as much now, but when people are
talking, I will sit on my handsand I'm like Crystal, that is
your physical cue.
You shut your mouth, you mouth.
Do you do anything else?
Let the other person speak.
So I love all of these tips andI love the idea.
You're like yeah, we're already, we're recording this, we have
video, we have proof of what wecan work on and what we can
improve.
But I feel like we've beentalking about a lot of really
(27:15):
kind of sunshiny, rainbow thingswith our, you know, speaking
and content and businesses andpodcasts.
But I'm so curious and thiscould be for your writing
journey or for creating contentfor your podcast but have there
been any big mistakes or biglessons learned that you would
love to share from your journeywith the audience today?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, I'm so glad you went there because I think it
is important to be real.
Right, we want to keep it real,because it's not rainbows and
sunshine every day.
You know, you are on the hillright, you're on the bear and
you're putting one foot in frontof the other, and some days
that's really hard, and I thinkfor me, one of the challenges
that I faced is that I startedthis podcast.
(28:02):
I was really enthusiastic aboutit.
I did something that I think wasreally helpful is I recorded 10
episodes before I launched, soI had this in advance and as I
was recording these episodes andI had this hard launch date and
I had all of these things inplace, my dad ended up having a
major, major cardiac event, andthat cardiac event wasn't just a
(28:24):
one-off situation.
He has congestive heart failure,which is chronic.
So what?
That means that, as his primarycaregiver living in another
state, I will sometimesencounter these unpredictable
crises or events that require meto travel or that require my
(28:47):
attention in a way that takes itaway from the podcast, or it
puts me in a situation where I'mtrying to balance two things at
the same time, you know, my dadand my podcast, oh, by the way
and my business, and I'm awriter and so making time to
write and, oh my, there havedefinitely been times where I've
struggled to balance it all, tofigure out how to make it work.
(29:10):
And when that happens, and whenI get tired right, especially
when I get tired I get a littlecrunchy and then I'm like why am
I doing this?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Should I quit?
Is it worth it?
And then I'll think, okay, whatare the download numbers?
Give me some metric to make itbetter.
And of course, you and I'vetalked about this.
That does not make it better,it actually puts more pressure
on you.
So, yeah, that has certainlybeen a huge growth.
Edge for me is how can I begentle with myself and build
(29:43):
great processes so that I canweather all of the unpredictable
things that happen in life?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, and I think that I mean kudos to you for for
figuring it out, because I andI know I'm sure it's not like a
beautiful thing behind thescenes to like.
I mean, and you even said ityourself it's like I don't wanna
say, don't we all Cause that'skind of, you know, gaslighting
(30:16):
of like.
Yeah, you know I'm not gonnavalidate your feelings, but at
the same time, it truly doeshappen to everyone.
So, instead of people justthinking like it's always gonna
be, you know, no bumps, nobruises, like no hiccups along
the way.
It will absolutely happen.
It just depends on that flavorof the day, Like you just never
know.
(30:36):
It could be electricity one day, like your electricity goes out
, it could be the whole streetdecides to start mowing their
lawn at the same time.
It's like you just never knowwhat that thing's going to be.
So I think, finding thatflexibility and, you know,
understanding with maybeyourself or your guest or
whatever going on is such abeautiful thing to just adapt
(30:59):
and just say you know what?
I'm here for the long game, andit sounds like you've already
committed to that, and well,we'll just see, see how it goes.
But do you have any like onespecific um, I'm trying to think
of like specifically forpodcasting?
Do you have like a story toshare of like you, a guest
didn't show up, or maybe likemicrophone tech issues, or
(31:22):
something that you were able to,like, figure it out in the
moment, or it was something thatyou just couldn't recover and
you had to reschedule or justsay we'll try again another day?
Has any of that happened to you?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Oh, there have definitely been tech snafus and
what I found is that techproblems are going to happen and
I'm blessed, in my case, that Ihave a computer that I use and
a laptop.
So there have been times whereyou know, I have this beautiful
microphone, I have this setupthat you see, that has the
(31:58):
lighting that I like, and thenthere have been times where it
just didn't work.
My computer locked up and it'slike, okay, what are we going to
do as a backup and can wereschedule if needed?
Can we give ourselves somegrace that things are going to
happen?
And yeah, I think a lot of itcomes down to self-talk, like,
(32:19):
how are you talking to yourselfabout what's happening versus
what is happening?
Because if you startcatastrophizing, which you know,
right before we came on, mycomputer locked up and there was
a part of me that's like laptopand there was a part of me
that's like, ah, I'm supposed todo this thing and it just
happened.
And then I had to, like, take adeep breath and be like, yeah,
(32:41):
that's overwhelming, we don'twant this to happen, it's not
what we intended.
And then I said, okay, what aremy options?
So I got out my laptop and then, you know, told you what was
happening and then my computerdecided to come back online and
we figured it out.
But I think it was about mepausing and saying, yeah, it's
okay and I'll tell a littlefunny story.
That's not actually a techglitch, but I think, for people
(33:03):
who are starting on YouTube,this is something that happened
to me early on and it'ssomething I still have to think
about.
Is that when I started, youknow, at first doing the podcast
, and it's funny because I'vebeen on video for many years in
different ways.
But now I'm listening, right,and you're when you're listening
, you're still, and and when Iwas first doing this, I was
(33:26):
working on Zoom, just becausethat was the easiest way and so
you can see yourself.
And I remember trying to listento my guests and also going
what is happening to my face?
Does my face know what to do?
Like, my face has forgotten howto be a face.
Like, why do I have thatstrange look?
What is happening here?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
you just made someone's day, you just made my
day, saying that.
But I'm like, oh my gosh, I'mso glad Lisa said it, because I
feel like everyone has done thatand it's not only that, it's
what people will come to me,because I've had people say how
do you do that on video?
And I'm like, yeah, do what.
And they're like, no, how doyou do that?
And I'm like, what?
(34:14):
Like what is the that thatyou're talking about?
They're like how are youlooking into the camera?
Yet maybe someone is likeoffset to the side.
Like, how do you do that and notlook at the screen and how do
you do this?
And I'm like guys, this issince 2018.
Like I've just like there'sthings that you learn and you
adapt and you go and you flowwith all the different pieces of
it.
And I think that being willingto show up, even if it's just
(34:35):
you, even if it's just you onZoom no one else is even there,
it's just you Like be willing tolearn and fail and look a
little silly or make somemistakes and say you know what,
it's okay, cause I'm in it forthe long haul.
I think we'll make all thedifference in the world and so
thank you so much for sharingthat, because I know exactly
what you're talking about.
Like, I remember somebody toldme a long time ago I don't
(34:58):
remember if it was like a PatFlynn or Amy Porterfield, marie
Forleo, like someone really bigin the online business space,
and they said oh yeah, you'resupposed to blink when you're in
an interview, and I just itnever left my mind.
I can't remember who said it,but it just I always remember.
If I'm on a call, I'm like ohyeah, blink, blink.
So you don't look like you arebeing interrogated and you're
(35:20):
shocked like what's happening.
So, oh my gosh, that's such agood tip.
But okay, as we're lookingahead to the rest of 2025 and
all the things that you havecoming up for your business and
your content, is there somethingthat you're really excited?
Are you trying something new?
Are you looking at your contentin a different way?
(35:40):
Like, tell us all the thingsthat you have coming up, lisa.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Well, I'll tell you the thing that I am most excited
about, and that is that I amtaking a break and I think this
is really important for peopleto hear is that breaks are
important.
I am going to because I have somany podcast episodes.
We're going to have a best ofseries and you know I've already
got the dates.
I'm going to redo the introsand the outros so that it all
(36:06):
makes sense and it's not just mehosting the same content Again.
There's a context within all ofit.
But you know, this is somethingI learned from Marie Forleo is
that you have to have these downtimes, right.
If you're constantly going andgoing and going, you cannot
improve your business becauseyou cannot reflect on where
you've been or imagine where youwant to be.
(36:28):
And so in July, I am taking off, and I've done this as a third
year in a row and sometimes thatmeans I'm working really,
really hard in other parts ofthe year.
So it's not like, oh, this isjust easy, but I'm going to have
that time to reflect and I willhave a master class in the fall
.
That I am very excited about.
(36:49):
This is going to be a newprogram and it's something
people have been asking for.
People have been saying we needthis now, and they've been
asking for the book version.
Right, and I am working on thebook version, but books take
time, and I was like you know,why do I not have this packaged
in a certain way for people now?
Because this is somethingpeople need now.
(37:10):
And then I'm also working onthe book right, it doesn't have
to be an either, or it can be aboth, and so I'm really excited
about that and having time toplan and do that work, because
I'm not going to see clients inAugust.
That's another choice that I'mmaking so that I have the time
to really get that together, sothat people can get on the
(37:31):
waiting list now, and so beingon my sub stack is going to be
the best way.
And as I'm doing this, the otherthing I'm really thinking about
and this is where that thatsummer downtime is going to come
into play is that you know,when people hear that I'm a
trauma informed writing coachand they hear the word trauma,
what they think is like oh, youwant me to write about the
(37:53):
horrors of my life, or I onlyqualify to work with you if I
have a horrific life, so thenwhat happens is that people are
thinking about this in this,what I will say, the way of pain
right, and not the way ofpossibility.
And so when I think about theenergy that I want to put into
(38:16):
this program, where do I wantpeople to be Right?
So, when we think about ouraudience and we think about
customer offerings, we want tothink about the pain points like
what do people want?
We also want to think aboutwhere do we want them to be, and
I want them to free their voice.
I want them to find their power.
I want them to feel like theycan do anything right.
(38:36):
I want them to have thesefeelings, and this work that I
do, which I've been doing forabout 12 years now, actually
helps people do that.
Now it's just going to be inthis structured program, so I
don't have the title yet, butthat's going to be part of the
subtitle.
I already know that.
So find your voice and findyour power.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I love that so much.
Yeah, and I know we're going tohave links to your sub stack
and if you have that waitlistpage, we're going to get that in
there, because I think that allof this is so good.
I know that there's a lot ofaspiring writers in the audience
, and so I want y'all to gocheck this out and go learn from
Lisa.
Go listen to her podcast.
Like at a minimum, you need togo listen to her podcast Writing
(39:17):
your Resiliency and I just.
This has been such a fantasticconversation today, lisa, and I
thank you so much for coming on.
Are you up for our rapid firequestions before we let you go?
Why, yes, I am Okay.
Well, let's just jump right in.
So the first one is what's apiece of advice that you would
(39:37):
give to a brand new podcaster orcontent creator?
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I would say let progress, not perfection, be
your North Star and allowyourself to just do the work.
There's this whole study aroundhow you know, they had people
try to make one perfect pot andthen they had other people try
to make one perfect pot and thenthey had other people try to
make all the pots they could andthe people who actually made
the best pots were the ones whomade lots of them.
So you know, just go and do thework, and what you're hoping to
(40:05):
create will happen through theprocess.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I love that one foot in front of the other on the
bear right.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Go and head down and go climb the bear.
Okay, what is?
Uh?
My next question is what is thedream podcast you would love to
be on and who is your dreampodcast guest you'd love to
interview?
Speaker 1 (40:24):
I would love to be on .
We can do hard things.
I would love to be on thatpodcast and I actually believe
it or not.
No two people who have been onthat podcast Amazing.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
What about?
Who would you love to interview?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Oh, there are so many people.
But when I was thinking aboutthis, two people came to mind
Elizabeth Gilbert, because she'sso wise and she's such a
fantastic writer, and Dan Harris, because he's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yes, yes, oh my gosh, these are so good.
And now I'm thinking about Ithink that you may be the third
or fourth person who said we cando hard things.
So I mean, it's happened like.
We've had people like this isthis is your place to put it out
into the universe.
It's happened before, so okay.
Last question Do you consideryourself a perfectionist?
Speaker 1 (41:13):
I would say I am a perfectionist in recovery, so
can that come out now?
Yes, it can Case in point whatwas I thinking about my face,
but I also have learned overtime to give myself a lot more
grace.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Oh, I love that so much, Lisa.
Lisa, this has been so much funtoday.
Where can everyone connect withyou and learn more about all
the things that you're doing?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, I would say, go to my website,
lisacooperellisoncom, and if youwant to sign up for my sub
stack, which will give you mypodcast episodes in your inbox
every week, you can go tolisacooperellisonsubstackcom.
You can also go to writing yourresilience podcastcom If you
just want to get access to thepodcast.
And I would say I'm also onYouTube at Lisa Cooper Ellison
(42:00):
and that is a great place tojust leave a comment.
And one thing that I havestarted doing, which I know
you're doing to crystal, is thatI give shout outs on my podcast
when people give me comments,and it has been so much fun
because I'm getting morecomments right, more people are
writing to me and then theywrite to me personally when they
hear their name about how muchit means to them, so you could
(42:22):
hear your name on my show.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yes, I love this so much.
I love that you're doing thisbecause I think it is so fun and
it's such a great way just togive a little something back to
your audience.
So I love that you're doingthat.
But, lisa, this has been sogood.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Thank you so much for having me, Crystal.
It's been an absolute pleasure,Well.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I hope that you enjoyed this chat with Lisa as
much as I did, because it was sofun getting to hear her story,
how she helps people, but alsojust the journey of being a
creator, showing up consistentlyand all of that hard work
really paying off.
So make sure you go listen toher podcast.
(43:02):
If you are a writer in any sortof capacity, please go listen
and learn from the powerfulstories that Lisa shares on her
show and just go check it out,because it is so worth listening
to.
But that's all I have for youtoday.
So make sure you follow andsubscribe to learn more about
digital marketing strategies,content strategies and
(43:24):
everything else in between.
And, as always, remember, keepit up.
We all have to start somewhere.
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