September 7, 2023 • 49 mins
Ever consider a career with the New Jersey Department of Corrections? There are so many unbelievable opportunities for advancement with the largest law enforcement agency in the state. Find out what those options are along with inside perspectives on how to get you there through RCBC's Law and Justice Program. We'll hear from NJDOC Acting Deputy Commissioner, Willie Bonds, RCBC Law and Public Service Assistant Professor, Joseph Rizzo, and RCBC 3+1 Law and Justice student, Jonathan D'Arpino.
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Jason Varga (00:03):
Welcome to the program pod a national award
winning program on the rcbcPodcast Network which takes a
deep dive into the programsoffered at rcbc through
different perspectives ofstudents, faculty and employers.
Hello, and welcome to theprogram pod. Yes, that's right,
the national award winningprogram here in rcbc Podcast
Network. And this is Jay Vargafor the first episode of the new
(00:24):
semester, which is underwayright now. Come back from my
summer break. Hope you enjoyedthe commencement Siri coverage.
But this time we're gonna betalking some criminal justice, I
guess three excellent guestswith us. I have Jonathan
D'Arpino, a current criminaljustice major at RCBC. Joe Rizzo
a fellow colleague of mine,RCBC, Assistant Professor in a
criminal justice program, andmaybe soon to be play caller for
(00:45):
the Philadelphia Phillies. AndWillie Bonds, Deputy
Commissioner for the New JerseyDepartment of Corrections who
has over 25 years ofcorrectional experience.
Gentlemen, welcome to theprogram pod. That's right. Hey,
Unknown (00:59):
thanks for having me.
Jason Varga (01:00):
On up. All right. So, as I usually like to start
with a student first here forthe rcbc So we're gonna start
with you, John. First of all,nice and easy. What brought you
to rcbc? are good. I'm sorry.And was criminal justice. Also
your first choice.
Unknown (01:15):
Criminal Justice was actually not my first choice.
Um, I came in with I think itwas education. But uh, I can
actually just took a break fromthat. And then I came back with
a new focus. So what kind ofcriminal justice? Yes.
Jason Varga (01:27):
So what made you What made you change? Like, why
did you want to be criminaljustice?
Unknown (01:31):
I guess. I came in like with I picked education because
I really wasn't actually surewhat I wanted to do. I just knew
I wanted to get into like a,like a public service. Really, I
kind of get just narrowed itdown after just taking some time
to think about it. And why didyou want to get into public
service? Both my parents arepublic servants. My mom is
actually support coordinator forpeople with special needs. And
(01:52):
then she also works for whichNew Jersey Department of
families and children families,sorry, okay, and then my dad's a
retired teacher.
Jason Varga (02:00):
Awesome. All right. So so actually speaking of
teaching and the weaver way,your teachers right next to you,
Joe Rizzo. You're actually justgetting out of your first class
this semester with ProfessorRizzo, aren't you? Yep. Yeah.
How was today's class? Good.Yeah.
Unknown (02:14):
You feel good to be back? Oh, yeah, definitely.
Jason Varga (02:16):
And you've had you've had class with Professor
Reza before, right? Yep. Yeah.So what are we learning from
him?
Jonathan D'Arpino (02:22):
The last class I took with it was
criminal law. So it was justkind of like a, like a kind of
an introductory thing tocriminal law, and just the whole
bunch of aspects of that. Okay.
Jason Varga (02:33):
And so what are you what are you looking to go from
here? Like, you know, criminaljustice, obviously, we'll talk
about it throughout the programcan offer various careers.
Right. So what are you trying tospecialize in? Where do you
think you're trying to go withthis?
Unknown (02:45):
So I came in thinking I wanted to get into law
enforcement, but now I'm kind oflooking at a law school as
another option. So I'm justweighing some different options
at the moment. Okay, just kindof going through and you're a
part of the three plus oneprogram. Yep. Yes. Is my junior
year. Okay.
Jason Varga (02:58):
So the best advice so far, you've taken away from,
you know, any of the criminaljustice classes, you know, for
other students that are comingin,
Unknown (03:06):
I guess, it would be like, kind of just stay diverse
and just be flexible. I mean,like I said, I came in like
thinking I wanted to do lawenforcement. But uh, a few
professors have kind of pointedme towards law school, too.
Jason Varga (03:18):
So we've been kind of thinking you're doing
education? Yeah. So it's theover Yeah, so yeah, definitely.
And what are some of thechallenges, you know, being a
student going through some ofthis program?
Unknown (03:28):
I guess the balance between working finding time to
spend with like, family friends,but uh, yeah, definitely just
balance. Do you mean,
Jason Varga (03:36):
I'll just go into college? Yeah, go to college and
work. Right. Right. So loopingin Professor Rizzo. Is it okay
to call you, Joe? Yes. Joe now,for anybody listening out there
as Joe and I work across thehallway from each other if your
criminal justice wing up thereand Laurel Hall and the 300
suites butts I talked to me awayin the radio, which we're gonna
split it into podcasts. But Joeand I are always talking
(03:59):
baseball a lot of the times andmaybe we'll have you do a little
play by play or something ofsorts. But before we get into
your background, I always liketo ask the faculty members, you
know, why did you pick aparticular student? And, you
know, our person who endorsedsocial media, Victoria Riley
from a marketing department isdoing an excellent story, John.
She said he's an awesome person.Want to know why you think he
(04:20):
was an awesome person?
Joseph Rizzo (04:22):
Well, my experiences with John and class
have been excellent. He's anexcellent student. He's driven,
he works hard. He cares aboutsuccess. And he mentioned law
school. He's an excellentwriter. And certainly that's
going to take him a long way,especially when it comes to
going to law school, but he hasa real interest in criminal
(04:43):
justice every class that he'shad with me. He, he, you can
tell immediately that he careshe wants to do well. So
unfortunate when Victoria askedme for names, Jonathan's one of
a number of really Good studentswho are here that I could have
recommended. And I'm gladJonathan was the one who decided
(05:07):
to do this. Like I said, he'sdone a great job here.
Jason Varga (05:12):
It's when you talk about a great writer, why? Why
is that important in that in hisfield?
Unknown (05:16):
Well, in almost any field, but especially in
criminal justice, you have to beable to communicate. I spent a
lot of time in my career workingfor the New Jersey Department of
Corrections, as has DeputyCommissioner bonds. And, you
know, communication is one ofthe biggest things that we deal
and I dealt with, and he'sdealing with, and simply writing
(05:38):
a report is, for many incriminal justice, law
enforcement name, it's everyday, you're asked to write a
report. And in many cases, itbecomes a legal document. So
that has to be written correctlyand properly. And it's sharing
information. And if you can't dothat it can make for some
(05:59):
stressful situations. AndJonathan is one of many of our
students who can communicate andwrite well, is that is that
true?
Jason Varga (06:08):
Deputy Commissioner?
Willie Bonds (06:09):
Oh, absolutely is true. Communication is a big,
big part of what we do. Thosefrom the outside who may not be
familiar with what we do, may beshocked to hear that. But having
great communication skills canmake or break you on any given
day, if you're not able toeither verbally articulate what
(06:29):
just took place and yourjustification for the actions
that you took, or the actionsthat you did not take. Or if
you're not able to memorializethose actions or your
justification in writing. It canbe it can lead to some
undesirable outcomes, I'll say,or, or at the very least just
(06:50):
difficult situations.
Jason Varga (06:51):
Gotcha. Yeah, I didn't realize that writing was
that important. But think abouthim and talk about just having
to put like I said, but thosereports and then being a legal
binding document, too. It's kindof it's out there. So, Joe,
you're starting to get into yourbackground. So let's, let's talk
about that. I can talk aboutyour own background, and kind of
like what led you up to rcbc andteaching here?
Unknown (07:10):
Well, it's a long story.
Jason Varga (07:12):
I got a little bit of time.
Unknown (07:13):
But I started a long time ago as a public school
teacher. And my neighbor came tome one day and said they need
teachers at the Garden StateCorrectional Facility. And I've
told this story many, manytimes. And to my students, I've
heard it more than once. Iactually thought he had he was,
(07:34):
it was speaking Greek to methat, are you kidding me? That
I'm going to actually you wantme to teach in prison with, you
know, convicted felons, etc,etc. And I had no concept of
what prison was to other thanwhat I'd seen on TV. And I made
the decision to do it, and spentthe next 27 years working for
(07:55):
the New Jersey Department ofCorrections. I will tell you,
and I think, again, DeputyCommissioner bonds will confirm
this. It is a field that manypeople do not think about going
into. In my wildest dreams, Inever thought this is where I
would go. But I'm very proud ofwhat I did there. And I still to
(08:15):
this day, get to talk about it.And I again, I became a teacher
there and was promoted up theranks, I became Director of
Education AssistantSuperintendent, and then I'm
going back over 20 years now Iwas promoted to prison
administrator, New Jerseydoesn't use the term Warden,
they use prison administrator.And that's what I became. I was
(08:37):
administrator of the MountainView correctional facility. And
then I became an administratorof our reception center, retired
and continued to work in thehalfway house field, which is in
conjunction with the Departmentof Corrections. I won't bore you
with all those details, but andthen, as luck would have it, I
(08:58):
became an adjunct professor, andwas hired here full time and
here I am. And yeah, it's been along but wonderful career for
myself. And to be here now atrcbc is just a really a
tremendous benefit to me.
Jason Varga (09:14):
And so what type of courses and content are you
specifically teaching here orCBS? Obviously, it's within the
criminal justice program.
Unknown (09:19):
Well, I teach the corrections classes here, I
teach community corrections,which really go hand in hand in
many respects. And I also teachcriminal law. I'm not a lawyer,
but I really enjoy teachingcriminal law. And as part of our
three plus one program, I teachtheories of crime, you know,
(09:39):
that was a course that we'vebeen teaching here since our
affiliation with RowanUniversity going back to 2016.
And I just finished that class.Jonathan is in that class, we
just finished that at 320. Soum, that's pretty much what I
teach here. And we So we have agreat program here, one of the
(10:02):
larger majors here, it has beenhistorically for many, many
years here, and it's continuingto grow in that regard. So we've
been blessed with a with a largecontingent of students
Jason Varga (10:15):
on Jahnavi. Taking a criminal law course. Yeah,
yeah. So is that what kind ofmade you start to think towards
that of getting sad being like,sad kind of going more towards
being law?
Unknown (10:24):
Yeah. And some family members that I've been to, and
he's in a retired judge as well.So, okay.
Jason Varga (10:30):
All right. So, Joe, you talked about you said, there
was obviously a lot of successstories, like John, do you still
keep in touch with otherstudents? Yeah,
Unknown (10:37):
I mean, we have a number of our, you know, in many
cases, they become policeofficers. And they can you know,
without going through names, andso forth, there's been a number
who become police officers, somestill keep in contact or ask for
references, you often get acall, Mr. Rizzo had you two
years ago, three years ago, I'mtrying to get this job, that
(10:57):
job, etc. And, you know, they'reasking for references and so
forth. So yeah, we still do alot of that, to try to help them
in that regard.
Jason Varga (11:06):
And Wk Mr. Barnes, I will get to in a second I
promise I tried to live ineverybody in but you know, we're
promoting a program here alittle bit on the program pod of
rcbc. So, the these prisonadministrator, slash Warden, or
whatever you have, I'm sure youhave tons of stories. Yes, yeah.
Do you share some of thesestories in class? Yes, I do.
(11:26):
What can you share? Maybe? Well,
Unknown (11:28):
it's just the daily management and the the
individuals who you meet, youknow, when you when you work in
a system, as long as DeputyCommissioner bond, and I did put
us together, it's over 50 yearsof experience, you meet a lot of
individuals. And I'm not justtalking about the offender. And
I know there's a new name forthat now incarcerated person
(11:50):
that incarcerated. Thank you.Yeah, I want to make sure I get
that right, incarcerated person.But it's also the staff you get
to meet, I worked with sometremendous individuals in my
career, who taught me thingsthat I never even thought about
when I started working in abusiness. And I, I've, it's part
of the reason I was successful.And you get to meet a lot of
(12:14):
good people who really careabout what they're doing. And
it's a business where if youneed that support, you need that
guidance every day. You know,and certainly, I've worked with
some notorious offenders who,you know, were well known, not
only in New Jersey, but in theUnited States. But that's,
that's part of it. But you workwith a lot of most offenders
(12:37):
that you work with, they'regoing to be in and out of the
system. They're not staying for3040 50 years. That's not the
norm, you know, but, you know,but the thing that amazed, I
think the thing I can comment onprobably best was the experience
I had with the staff, and theirwillingness to put themselves in
(12:57):
harm's way to keep people safeand secure in very, very trying
and difficult situations. AndI'm sure again, you could he's
he, Deputy Commissioner bond isthe person who really should
talk about this, who's living itas we speak. You know, I've been
retired. And he certainly couldspeak in much more detail than I
(13:19):
could about some of that.
Jason Varga (13:20):
Well, let's use that little segue. One thing
from play, play by play Go. Butokay, again, Deputy
Commissioners bonds here. Wouldyou like to elaborate on that? A
little bit? What's before we getinto some more your background
stuff? What is some of the stuffyou see on a day to day basis?
Or what I was talking about
Unknown (13:41):
sinteres thing question. Because what was kind
of like two sides to it as i isee it anyway. People watch TV
shows like ours is one of themore you know, popular ones. And
people think that everydaycorrections life looks like
that. sensationalized to adegree of course, anything most
(14:02):
things you see on TV aresensationalized a bit. You know,
we do have some tryingsituations, we have some
dangerous situations andscenarios that play out on a day
to day, day to day basis,without a doubt. But on a normal
day, in most facilities, thingsare pretty routine, where you
have individuals getting up inthe morning, they're going to
(14:25):
work, they're going to school,they're going to some type of
program, you know, things ofthat nature, and those those
activities continue throughoutthe day. We do have individuals
unfortunately, who engage inbehavior that's less than
desirable and put our staff insome difficult situations up to
and including staff assaults.You know, those types of
(14:45):
situations, needless to say, areunfortunate and not good
situations for our staff. Butum, yeah, that's kind of what it
looks like on a day to dayperspective. Like, like Joe
said, you know, we do have aWhen people look at it from the
outside in, you know, peoplealways wondering what it's like
we do have some individuals whohave committed some crimes with
(15:08):
some, you know, very high, youknow, notoriety, it's probably
one of the more interestingthings is interacting with those
interacting with thoseindividuals on a day to day
basis, because we interact witheverybody, it doesn't matter if
they're there for a year, or ifthey're there for 4550 years, or
they're doing a life sentence,it doesn't matter, we are
interacting with them on a dailybasis, they are all offered
(15:31):
programming, education, and inall of the services that we
have, that are available for allof them. And just to piggyback
off of what you said, also, Joe,earlier about the incarcerated
population as a whole, at least,I would say anywhere between 80
to 85% of them are going home,we have a very small group, a
(15:51):
small percentage that areserving their life sentence or
multiple life sentences, ormaybe they're at an advanced
stage, and they have a very longsentence as well. And you know,
they may not make it home. Butoutside of that 80 to 85% of
these individuals are comingback to our community. So that's
why another reason it isincumbent upon us to make sure
(16:11):
that we are providing him withthe tools, education to
services, to help them hopefullysuccessfully reintegrate back
into society.
Jason Varga (16:20):
So what kind of tools and services are you
providing? What kind of give usan example? Try to help you know
better than to kind of get themready for that that society
adjustment again?
Unknown (16:29):
Well, one of the main things is education.
Unfortunately, a lot ofincarcerated individuals who end
up with us don't even have anhigh school education. So we
offer GED programs. And we alsooffer higher higher education as
well. Individuals who are thatinterested in motivated, can
(16:50):
obtain their associate's degreeor their bachelor's degree, we
even have a master's degreeprogram. So and these are
partnerships with, you know,obviously, higher education
institutions throughout thestate. On the on the higher ed
side, but um, so those are someof the things on the education
side, we have programming thataddresses substance use
(17:11):
disorders, we have programs thataddress anxiety, any type of use
disorder, whether it be I'msorry, I'm drawing a blank,
mental health issue. No, I wastalking about more specifically,
in a
Oh, yeah, yeah, AAA programs,GA,
(17:34):
any of those programs thataddress any type of addictions,
like you said, also, mentalhealth is a big part. A large
percentage of our incarceratedpopulations has some type of
mental health disorder. So wehave, we have what we call
inpatient mental health,housing, and we have outpatient,
(17:54):
obviously, inpatient is moreintense. But um, so in are a
host of other offerings as well,we have religious services that
are available to theincarcerated population, and
like I said, a bevy of otherprogramming.
Jason Varga (18:09):
So Joe, I know used to take students to think it was
a prison for state correction.Do you still do that? Yes, we
do. Is that a part of hisprogram or something you
oversee? In terms of I mean, Ididn't know for like the
listener or myself, or I don'tknow, you go into prisons and
such. I don't know if that's thesome of the prisons that he's
(18:30):
referencing, or some of theinmates and stuff do you take?
Do you guys team up together?Or, you know, where are you
taking students to kind of seethat for like,
Unknown (18:39):
well, we'll go, we're actually we're, like, we're
scheduled to go to Garden Stateon in October. And we I've done
that for many, many years. Andwe stopped, we're in COVID.
Shorts, you know. But again,thanks to Deputy Director bonds
and his support, we've been ableto start that, again, to be
quite frank. And he's been a bigsupporter of what we're trying
(19:02):
to do here with the students.And again, I'll say this, quite
frankly, he's a member of ouradvisory board here. He's been
nothing but supportive of theeducational piece here. He
speaks in my classes, and he'sencouraged others to get
involved and so forth. And soit's been great. And the touring
(19:24):
to prison adds so much to theclass, it really does. And the
students come back very, verydifferent than before. I tried
to do it right in the middle ofsemester, and their perspective
changes after they've been tothe prison. And then afterwards,
because now they understand manyof the things that we talk about
in class, you can only talk somuch or show a video about
(19:46):
prison life, and no one reallyunderstands it till they see it.
And he actually got to go to aprison and that's because of the
support we get from the NewJersey Department of
Corrections. And I can't thankthem enough because The feedback
that I get from the students isincredible. Many of them say I
never thought about working incorrections. And now by you
(20:09):
taking me to see what goes on,change my perspective, because
often they have a bias as as, asDeputy Director bonds has said
they think it's AWS and it is inAWS. I mean, certainly, can you
put yourself in harm's way?Absolutely. But that's part of
what many aspects of lawenforcement is. But once they
come back, their perspective haschanged. And they realize that
(20:31):
people are doing, you know, it'snot just marching them to eat
and so forth. There'sprogramming and treatment. And
again, for that's availablethroughout the state in New
Jersey and every correctionalfacility in the state. And one
thing I wanted to piggyback ontoon what Deputy Director Bond
said, there is a therapeuticcommunity also, there is an
(20:52):
entire prison and correct me ifI'm wrong, that's dedicated to
treatment for offenders withsubstance abuse. So I mean, it's
out there for them. And youknow, so there's a lot available
to them. But my point is, again,going back to that the students
get to now see it, you know,they see cells, they walk
hallways, they see what the off,the correctional police officer
(21:14):
has to go through on a dailybasis. It's just I can't say
enough about it. You know,
Jason Varga (21:19):
John, have you taken a tour yet?
Unknown (21:21):
No, I actually, I took his correction class, but I
believe it still wasn't offered,
Jason Varga (21:25):
because we're still kind of come back to come back
from it. So I'd be bonds. Why doyou think that's important?
Because I didn't know you'repart of the advisory board and
going into the classrooms seemslike you're really reaching out
to the community and beyond likeyour roles and responsibilities.
Why do you think that is soimportant?
Unknown (21:41):
Well, number one, on a personal level, it means a lot
to me. It's kind of how I wasbrought to corrections. I was
taking a class at CumberlandCounty College, and my professor
at the time was an associateWarden for the federal system.
And an individual spoke aboutthe fact that the state system
was going to be building afacility in Bridgeton, which is
now Southwood state prison, andI spoke about the process and
(22:05):
you know, how you would go aboutgetting hired, if you were
interested in then we actuallytoured Southern State
Correctional Facility in one ofmy classes, that was a that was
a totally different experience.Southern state at that time was
a lot different than it wasprior to us closing it about a
year ago. But anyway, but thatexperience opened my eyes to the
(22:26):
opportunities that wereavailable with the department.
So on a personal note, it meansa lot to me. But from the
department side, it means a lot.And it means a lot to our
commissioner, like she likes tosay all the time. We're trying
to we're trying to we're tryingto pull back the veil on what it
is that we do, because a lot ofpeople don't understand what we
do. They think everything'snegative, you know, there's all
(22:47):
these problems. Look, we do haveour problems. It is a
challenging environment. I'llgive you that for sure. But we
do a lot of positive things. Wehave great staff, they work
hard, they're dedicated, like,like Joe said, you know, our
correctional police officers,they put themselves in harm's
way, you know, at times whennecessary to protect, you know,
their fellow officer, otherstaff members, any incarcerated
(23:09):
population. But, you know, like,I like to tell officers, they
wear many hats, you know, theirofficers, there's counselors,
you know, they play a lot ofdifferent roles to get through a
day. Everybody that works forthe Department plays a role in
the successful reintegration ofincarcerated person. So, we're
trying to educate the publicabout some of our positives,
(23:32):
which there are many sounds likeit. Yeah. Yeah. So so it means a
lot to get that communityoutreach. Absolutely.
Jason Varga (23:39):
So you talked about, obviously, that just
experience and I think I toldyou, Joe, before, like, I, when
I was teaching radio production,you know, I used to bring the
students to the studio itself,because it's one thing to kind
of do it in the classroom andteach them out of the user voice
and stuff and to take them tothe actual broadcast booth,
right, then they could see therise, the real studio setup, and
then you do you can just kind ofsee like them is really starting
(24:00):
to take it in and want to gowith it. But deputy bond or
Commissioner deputy bonds, yousaid that that tour, but was
there also something else thatkind of led you to this career
path or, you know, Tibet, getyou to where you are today,
Unknown (24:13):
um, the opportunities, that professor at the time spoke
about, you know, he was speakingmore about the federal system,
which is, you know, very similarto ours, in a lot of ways, it is
corrections. But he just spokeabout the opportunities that
were available. When you talkabout advancement, when you get
in the door, there's so manydirections that you can go the
(24:33):
you know, we you know, we spenda lot of time talking about
officers and you know, uniformedstaff, that's where I came from.
So that's kind of where my heartis, but that's only a part of
what we do. There are, you know,there are more civilian
positions, we call them civilianif you're not a uniform civilian
positions. Dinorah uniformposition means there are more
actual officers or uniformedstaff, but I'm talking about
(24:57):
variety of decisions fromteachers, the maintenance staff
Add to chaplains, you talk aboutmedical professionals, I mean,
that's just barely, you know,scratching the surface of all
the numerous civilian titlesthat are available to
individuals. And once you get inthe door, then you have
opportunities within thatdivision or that unit to to
(25:19):
advance, you know, you may getto the point where you are the
supervisor of that unit. Andfrom there, you may want to go
further, maybe you do want torun a facility, you want to be
an administrator, so you cankind of work your way up the
tree. You know, a goes in somany directions, and there's so
many branches is just theopportunities are unbelievable.
I tell people, we just had agraduation on Friday, I believe
(25:41):
it was in my memories correct.And one of the things that I
told our recruits, I said,Listen, I said, a lot of people
don't know, this is what we'rethe largest law enforcement
agency in the state. Number one,I said, there are so many
opportunities in thisdepartment. I said no other law
enforcement agency officeroffers the opportunity that we
(26:01):
do, I said, just nobody canmatch. And I'm, I'm sorry, it's
bragging, but it's the truth,just by sheer numbers. So, you
know, that's kind of it in anutshell. For me, it was about
opportunity. And I was fortunateenough to get in the door. And I
was fortunate enough to takeadvantage of the opportunities
that were available.
Jason Varga (26:20):
And that's why I kind of like to have this show
because myself tuning inlistening are just to bring you
guys on the show. When I thinkkind of criminal justice and
like prison reform or whatever Ithink Warden I think just the
the jail guards, right. Andmaybe like the males or the
medical staff or lunch cafeteriastaff and stuff that no it
spiders out as deep as it dideven to like said medical
(26:40):
education, and all that. Andit's why I tried to inform and
educate as well, you know, herewithin the program, and it's
great to see you w getting intothe classroom. And you know,
hopefully, you know, John getsto kind of experience some of
that and decides, Okay, maybethere's other opportunities
going for that. So with that,how what does someone know if
criminal justice is, you know,right for them, or law or
(27:02):
whatever. They can open openflow before to you guys and I
can tap in John is second, too.
Unknown (27:08):
That's an interesting question. And I gave you my
story. Earlier, I never reallythought about working in
criminal justice. I was a publicschool teacher, and transitioned
that into teaching in prison.And then again, to piggyback the
opportunities were there foradvancement, and went back to
college, got my master's degree,so I could be the assistant
(27:32):
education supervisor, andeventually the director of
education, the same, I had toget the same credentials as a
school principal. So that meantthat I was still using my
education background, but I wasalso advancing into prison
system. And that's how I did it.You know, not to speak for
Deputy Commissioner bonds, buthe worked, he was promoted. He,
(27:54):
you know, he's not going to say,but he was promoted to sergeant
lieutenant, you know, and rightup the ranks. And that's how he
did it. But the opportunitiesare there. I think that's the
key piece of it, that again,too, are repeating. But I think
that's a big part of this, thatthose opportunities are there
for you. But like I said, Ididn't really plan on this. It
(28:14):
didn't even cross my mind to bequite frank, but I guarantee you
can get a lot of people who willsay the same thing that oh,
they, you know, again, I'll giveyou a quick story. When I was up
at Mountain View. Many of myemployees came from the
Phillipsburg, EastonPennsylvania area. And a lot of
them would say to me, I said,How'd you get working here?
(28:35):
Well, my, my neighbor got myneighbor said, they were hiring,
or they closed the plant, and weneeded jobs. And somebody said,
they're hiring out to prison.And that's kind of how it
evolved into back then. That'show the word was passed. But I
guarantee if you went to all theother prisons, many of the same
comments were there, or myfather worked here. My mother
(28:57):
worked here, you know, and theyhad a successful career, and the
opportunities there for me. Soit was passed on that way, also,
in many cases, and I suspectit's still that way today.
That's true. That is true. A lotof individuals or a lot of our
staff or legacy staff members.Yes. Where like you said someone
in your family where there'stheir father, their mother,
(29:19):
aunt, cousin, neighbor, youknow, whoever it may be that
introduced them to corrections,because let's be honest, I don't
think anybody growing upnecessarily as a child, so who I
want to go work for corrections.They don't even know what it is.
Yeah, honest. So at some pointin time, you're going to get
introduced some way or another.And that's typically how it
(29:42):
happens. Still, to this day,even though recruiting is much
more difficult. Nowadays. Yes.You know, many, many years ago,
we didn't even have to recruit.Yeah. We had more individuals
interested in seeking employmentwith the department. Then we had
vacancies. Now it's the otherway around. But that's kind of
being mirrored as you know, whatwe're seeing in society as a
(30:03):
whole. And particularly with lawenforcement, we're not the only
law enforcement agency that isstruggling with staffing.
Jason Varga (30:09):
Now. So some of the statistics and stuff might be
we're starting to resign or kindof changing careers. So, I guess
is that like the biggestchallenge right now in the
criminal justice system orcorrections and such as just the
staffing itself?
Unknown (30:24):
Absolutely. By far, that is our biggest challenge
right now. Because listen, inany field, no matter where you
work, you need what you needstaff. In order to get the job
done. In order for you to yourmission to be completed, you got
to have staff, you got to haveboots on the ground. So when you
don't have that, especially onthe uniform side, because this
(30:45):
is where it's more dire, on theuniform side, it leads to
burnout for staff because thewords right out my mouth, it's,
it's true, because when youhave, we have x amount of
officers that are scheduled fora shift, so if we have 20
vacancies, well, guess what,that's going to be filled by
(31:06):
somebody either working a doubleshift, or somebody coming in on
a day off? Well, that's fine,you know, for most individuals
to a degree because you know,everybody, not everybody, but a
lot of individuals like to makesome extra money, you know, by
way of overtime. So a little bitof overtime is actually a
positive thing for staff morale.However, when you're being
mandated to work several times aweek, it gets old, very frankly,
(31:30):
and staff gets tired, they getfrustrated, they get burned out.
And then when they get burnedout, guess what happens? They
stop coming to work. Now, that'sanother vacancy or another five
piquancy. So it quicklysnowballs into a very difficult
situation where we're doing moremandating of staff to work
(31:50):
overtime, then we certainlywould like to. So you know,
since since things have shiftedin that way, where now we have
to go out and recruit that's,that's exactly what we're doing.
We have a recruitment unit, youcan find them at any event
throughout the state, recruitingstaff on a regular basis, trying
(32:11):
to get staff in the door, tryingto educate people, as far as the
benefits of corrections. I mean,at the end of the day, as we all
know, one of the big thingsabout state employment is, you
know, the eligibility for apension, there aren't many
employers other than some statesthat are offering, you know,
retirement plans with definedbenefits. So that's something
(32:33):
that we still have not asgenerous as it used to be, you
know, many, many years ago forthose who've been around for a
while. But nonetheless, listen,it's still a very good, um,
defined benefit plan, and iscertainly worthwhile. It can set
you up for a nice retirement, ifyou know, for anybody who
chooses this career path. So in,you know, it is a law
(32:55):
enforcement field, a lot ofpeople are interested in law
enforcement, but they don'tthink a correction. So we're
educating them about that. Andwe educate them again, I know
I've mentioned this before, butcan't harp on it enough career
advancement. You know, if you'relooking to get ahead, if you
know, before I'm starting again,I typically start talking about
officers, because that's ourlargest segment of our staff.
(33:19):
There are so many opportunitiesfor advancement. So you know,
it's it's about what theindividual wants to do. If you
want to get in the door, youwant to be a sergeant, you want
to be a lieutenant, you want tobe a major, you want to move on
the administrative side. Theopportunities are plentiful.
Jason Varga (33:35):
That's always the hardest part. When you get into
the, into that field, it's howcan I continue to move up?
Right, instead of getting intoit, like with a call dead end
job or something? Right? And itseems like there's obviously
plenty of opportunities and tokind of make things right,
because I know, there's also Idon't want to I mean, you would
know, from professionalexperience, but the some type of
attention out there with thepublic justice system and law
(33:55):
enforcement in the correctionsin society, of course of social
media, kind of adding fuel tothe fire source. And those are
some of the other challenges.But I know people out there want
to make a difference. Right. Andthere's so many ways to make a
difference, you know, through,you know, your work. What do you
think they could do to try tomake the I don't know, public
access system? And I'll saybetter working? I guess a lot of
(34:16):
it has to do with comes down tostaffing a little bit, right?
Well,
Unknown (34:19):
since we're, we're speaking here, I think education
is a part of it. You know, Iwould argue that many that our
students are, we're trying tomake them aware of what society
you know, in terms of whatsociety is and what the criminal
justice system is nationwide.The good and the bad of it. I
think that's our responsibilityas educators, and if we provide
(34:40):
that for them, it gives them atleast an open mind in
considering any area of lawenforcement. And, you know, we
talked a lot today aboutcorrections kind of being like
that, you know, that's kind of aforgotten field. It's incumbent
on us to try to share that withthem. And certainly I'm by asked
obviously, because that's what Idid. So I'm proud of what I did.
(35:03):
And I certainly share that withthe students. But that doesn't
mean it's for everybody. Right,you know. So we try to give them
as many areas that they can workin local law enforcement to
state police, parole, probation.You know, court work drug court,
there's so much out there now,you know, and we try to expose
(35:23):
them to all of it. I thinkthat's our responsibility here
in criminal justice. And we Ithink we do a very good job with
that. I think if you ask, youknow, I asked John, if you asked
Jonathan, I think he's certainlybeen exposed to that. And he's
made, he's working on possiblymaking a decision to go to law
school, which is commendable.
Jason Varga (35:41):
Alright, John would like to elaborate on that a
little bit.
Unknown (35:43):
Yeah, like coming in, I definitely kind of had, like,
some certain notions about,like, what criminal justice
really was. But um, one of thefirst courses I took was
corrections. And that kind ofreally painted a picture of what
was really out there. And it'sjust like, so much more than
actually just law enforcement,there's so many different
aspects that you could get into.
Jason Varga (36:02):
Yeah, I think that just talking about the education
level, because some people makethese that they had to go and
have that perspective, once theystart going through it. And then
they're like, I don't want tohave a gun, I just want to be
gone by the desk and do theadministrative work, right. They
don't want to deal with some ofthe people in the public. But
the, it's kind of like an onionring, peeling back everything
else, you start to see, okay,this can spider into this, but
knowing that there's those jobopportunities and advancement,
(36:23):
and like you said, you know,pension, which we kind of
gravitated to here towardseducation, you know, because
there's a couple of times I wasconsidering leaving and stuff,
but it's kind of tough to leavewhen you have like that, that
pension kind of sitting rightthere known to take care of your
family and your legacy, right,you're kind of going on. But
tying it back a little bit tothis, you know, to our
programming a three plus one,John, the first student that's
(36:45):
maybe again, looking to kind ofget into what would you say
about that three plus oneprogram, and maybe why you would
recommend it to somebody,
Unknown (36:52):
especially for someone who wants to get into law
enforcement, like you can getinto like a local agency with 60
credits, or like, some of themdon't even have any record, like
just a high school diploma orGED. But like, it's picking off
both of those, both of theseguys that are just like
advancing your career in yourcareer, you're basically you're
gonna need a degree and it'sexpensive, you know, in rcbc is
(37:14):
a great option. It's just like,for me, it's like right down the
road. So I'm not reallytraveling that much. The cost of
tuition is pretty low as well.And that also mean the values
Shorrock, your gets a greateducation, just I mean, for?
Well, you know, what I'm saying?
Jason Varga (37:31):
That's all people see, they start to start, they
don't want to be in the debt ofstudent loans. Yeah. And then
they can get into education, getback into the field work, and
kind of right away which toparlay that question, their
Deputy Commissioner bonds,internships, do you guys offer
them? And maybe how does someonekind of go about trying to get
one they want to approach that
Unknown (37:52):
we do have internships, you know, like, like most people
during COVID, just abouteverything stopped, whether it'd
be, you know, internships, orjust about anything that
involved individuals from theoutside coming in the facility,
you know, pretty much came to ahalt. But now that we've, you
(38:13):
know, kind of returned to whatwe call our new normal and
things are opening back up, youknow, we certainly are open to
internships. I mean, you know,because of the work that we do,
obviously, our internships, I'mnot going to say that they're
limited, you wouldn't, we don'thave what they are somewhat
limited, they're not, you're notgoing to have any internships
for an officer, for example,you're not going to shadow an
(38:37):
officer, nothing like that. Butwe have internships in some of
our other you know, divisionsand units. The connections are
sometimes are made through tohigher educational institutions
who have ties to our department,and or through our human
resources department who thoseare the that's the division in
which I would refer anybody to,if they're interested in seeing
(39:00):
what type of internships areavailable to at any given time.
Jason Varga (39:04):
I would think shadowing an officer might be
quite an experience. Internshipitself. Joe, we are we're be
providing internships or do youoften the students are making
them aware throughout theprogram,
Unknown (39:17):
we do both through rcbc. It's a three credit course
that they can take through us.They are all required if they're
in three plus one as seniors totake to do a criminal justice
internship to graduate throughRowan University. So as an
example, Jonathan, probably nextyear, we'll be taking we'll be
(39:39):
doing an internship. And it hasto be approved by you know, the
internship supervisor, who willbe coming to class probably in
the next couple of months totalk to the students about that.
But they all have to do one yes.And I encourage them to take
something that they think theymight be interested in as
opposed to I'll just take thisbecause it's done. On the
(40:00):
street, because in the end, theybenefit benefits. Nobody, it
doesn't benefit the agency. Andit certainly doesn't benefit
them. And they're right backwhere they were. Because it
seems to me more so today than,you know, again, in my time, a
lot of the students aren't surewhere they want to go. They
often are debating back andforth about what area they want
(40:21):
to work in. And not just incriminal justice, but I think in
a lot of fields, but certainlyin criminal justice, that's an
issue. So I try to get them toconsider something that would be
something that they might wantto do,
Jason Varga (40:33):
I think it cuts you off. But internships also open
that door, right? And get you inso much about networking,
Unknown (40:39):
especially in today's world where there's such a need
for people. If you do well, inan internship, say, you know,
the Burlington County Office ofprobation, let's say as an
example, there's a good chanceyou might get a job, the same in
corrections, or, you know, someof the some of the local police
departments are using ourstudents for internships. Well,
(41:02):
they've exposed themselves,especially if they're doing
well, there's a good chancethat, you know, many of these
agencies have openings. There'salso been some freedom through
civil service today, theirrequirements have gotten correct
me from wrong are less strictthan they used to be because of
the need. So it's a tremendousopportunity right now in this
(41:23):
field. Yeah. It's unprecedented.In our, between my years and W
commissioners years, this isjust, it's unfathomable to both
of us that this happened.
Jason Varga (41:36):
Twice, right. I've always pushed my students for
internships as well. Oh, yeah.Because I said, it's just about,
again, who you know, gettingyour foot in the door, and then
you figure out, like you said,your work shows for itself,
because the biggest time and thebiggest, you know, catch 22 is
like, you know, you needexperience, but how do you get
experience without the actualexperience? Right? So you get in
there, you know, and I'm prettysure it's like, almost like a
(41:57):
small world. And you know, inyour fields, like a lot of
people know who other people areworking with no one radio,
people think radio broadcasting.It's such a huge avenue,
especially Philadelphia, like atop five market, top 10 market
and stuff. But really, we know alot of people are connected, you
jump in from radio station, aradio station, you know, you
have like that word of mouth, orlike that letter recommendation,
(42:20):
right? Sure. And you guys sayingthe same thing is for your
field?
Unknown (42:23):
Yeah, it can be. It's a large department. The field
itself is large as well, notjust state county corrections.
And you know, the Fed thefederal, the Federal has several
facilities here in New Jersey aswell. But a lot of us know each
other. If we don't know eachother directly. We know each
other indirectly, or we know,staff members that are part of
(42:46):
their teams, and so forth, andso on. So it's Corrections is a
large, but yet it's in someways, a small community all at
the same time.
Jason Varga (42:54):
All right. Well, before we get ready to wrap it
up, because we're kind of waypast time, but I said I just
getting into conversations, Iget really interested in curious
and trying to pass to educatethe listeners out there
listening, not knowing about alot of this stuff. Now used to
try to work in dad jokesthroughout the show, but trying
to find prison dad jokes. I'msure my Google search bar works
not going to be you know, Imight be getting a letter later,
(43:17):
or an email from MIT orsomething that's kind of going
on. So I'm gonna limit to justone. You don't feel like you
have to laugh for it, or it canbe whatever. And then we'll open
up the floor for some finalthoughts. Some comments,
suggestions and stuff, but whatdo you call call it when a
prisoner takes his own mug shot?Crickets? Crickets? A selfie?
(43:37):
Oh, boy. See, that's how bad itis. Boy, yeah, okay, good work.
I'm not gonna do some of theother ones. Because a lot of
them it's like, they're allplayed off the Sellner. Thanks.
So you're all cracking up nowoff this side? Because it's so
bad. Right? That's the way itis. But again, before we wrap it
up is any final remarks that anyof you would like to say to
somebody again, looking to getinto this field? I know we've
kind of touched base on it.Where to go and do websites to
(43:59):
promote programs, whatever thefloor is yours. I guess we can
start with John, anything youwant to say even just shout out?
Parents?
Unknown (44:07):
Yeah, shut up my parents definitely. I guess like
for someone who's already in thecriminal justice program at
rcbc, or any school. I mightsound like a professor and
administrator but uh, there's alot of great resources a school
has definitely there areinternships. There's an app
handshake. I think it's I'mhonest, I'm on there every day
(44:28):
looking at like, just differentopportunities that are out there
in the field. And that's likeanother thing it just kind of,
it's like a motivation. I guessyou can kind of really see
what's out there what you cando. It's interesting to look at
it. Yeah. John,
Jason Varga (44:39):
if our marks anything?
Unknown (44:41):
Well, I would say again, we as educators try to
expose them to the everythingthat's out there, and it's
available to them. And we alsogive them I think the other
thing is we give them both thepositives and the negatives of
working in this business. And Ithink that's important. We're
very honest with them. and tryto have them understand some of
(45:02):
the things we did do well, andwe didn't do well. And
oftentimes, some of the thingsthat I did when I was working
that today, I'd probably, youknow, would have been not would
have looked upon differentlythan they were back then. And we
share all that. And I thinkthat's important that they
understand that. And I reallybelieve that the experience, the
(45:22):
college experience, certainlyprepares them. For this type of
work. I really do. And I thinkit is a true benefit to the
employer, having theseindividuals who have a degree
from, you know, not only rcbc,but many of the colleges in this
credit
Jason Varga (45:39):
program. Yes, yeah, exactly. Yep.
Unknown (45:42):
Okay, so for me, I'm going to plug the department
Yeah. So efficiently. You know,just careful, I think it's a
Department of Corrections is awonderful career, it is
challenging. At the same time,it is very rewarding, though.
You know, for myself, I alwaysuse myself as an example, not
because I want to tell my story,per se, because I don't like
telling my story. But I share itfor those so that they can
(46:05):
understand what's possible forthem. When I started as an
officer, 25 years ago, I wouldhave never thought I'd be
sitting where I'm sitting rightnow, never would have thought
that in a million years. But yetit happened because I was
ambitious. And I, every time Iwas promoted into a position, I
mean, I always started thinkingabout what's next down a route.
(46:27):
So if I can do it, I like totell people, anybody can do it.
It's all about what you want todo what you want to see in your
career. If you are interested ina career in the New Jersey
Department of Corrections, youcan just go to the New Jersey
Department of Correctionshomepage, and it has all our
information and you know,different links to tell you
where to go in order to seekemployment. One good thing that
(46:50):
I do want to mention that peoplemay or may not know, you know,
we are a civil service, youknow, agency just like you know,
all state agencies, but for tobe an officer, you do not have
to take the civil service testanymore, you can take the civil
service test and be hired thatway. But thanks to the
legislator, in a governor whosigned off on a law, we are able
(47:14):
to hire directly from thestreets, we don't have to just
hire from the Civil Service listwe are we're actually doing both
nowadays. So individuals, like Isaid, can go to the website,
follow instructions and workthrough our recruitment unit in
order to complete theapplication, the background
check, and all of the thingsthat you need to do to get
hired. So most people were usedto the old way where you had to
(47:37):
sign up, you had to pay the fee,you had to take the civil
service as you had to wait foryour rankings to come out. Hope
the department called you soforth and so on, you don't, you
can still do that. And I wouldencourage anybody who's
interested in corrections tostill take the test when it's
available, but you don't have towait for that you can go to our
website, and we'll walk youright through the process. We
(47:58):
need people we want people. It'sa great career. So I encourage
anybody who's interested to goto our website,
Jason Varga (48:06):
and the website is Department of corrections.gov or
NJ or a J nj.gov. Alright, we'regonna just Google it,
Unknown (48:12):
you're gonna find it if you go to the to the state of
New Jersey homepage, where youhave all the agencies and audit
departments. That's one easy wayI direct people. You go there
and then you can you can
Jason Varga (48:24):
click on the sub links. Yep. Okay, awesome. All
right. Well, that's going to doit for this episode again, the
first one of the fall semesterthe fiscal 2023 or 24 Really,
but for the fall 2023 This hasbeen Jay Varga and again with my
go on my guests, Jonathan dark,you know, the criminal justice
major here rcbc system Professorrcbc, Joe Rizzo and of course
(48:48):
Deputy Commissioner of JerseyDepartment of Corrections.
Willie boss. Gentlemen, thanksfor coming on the show Jim. Good
time. Good times. So again, togo learn more information about
rcbc Is programs you can visitrcbc.edu and for other rcbc
podcasts that we have, includingthe new Baron s podcasts
featuring powerful women abroadto county good rcbc.edu/podcasts
(49:11):
Also be sure to subscribe to theprogram pod and any where you
get your podcasts at so thatApple, Google Spotify and
everything else but so nexttime, thanks for listening and
enjoy
Welcome to the program pod a national award
winning program on the rcbcPodcast Network which takes a
deep dive into the programsoffered at rcbc through
different perspectives ofstudents, faculty and employers.
Hello, and welcome to theprogram pod. Yes, that's right,
the national award winningprogram here in rcbc Podcast
Network. And this is Jay Vargafor the first episode of the new
(00:24):
semester, which is underwayright now. Come back from my
summer break. Hope you enjoyedthe commencement Siri coverage.
But this time we're gonna betalking some criminal justice, I
guess three excellent guestswith us. I have Jonathan
D'Arpino, a current criminaljustice major at RCBC. Joe Rizzo
a fellow colleague of mine,RCBC, Assistant Professor in a
criminal justice program, andmaybe soon to be play caller for
(00:45):
the Philadelphia Phillies. AndWillie Bonds, Deputy
Commissioner for the New JerseyDepartment of Corrections who
has over 25 years ofcorrectional experience.
Gentlemen, welcome to theprogram pod. That's right. Hey,
Unknown (00:59):
thanks for having me.
Jason Varga (01:00):
On up. All right. So, as I usually like to start
with a student first here forthe rcbc So we're gonna start
with you, John. First of all,nice and easy. What brought you
to rcbc? are good. I'm sorry.And was criminal justice. Also
your first choice.
Unknown (01:15):
Criminal Justice was actually not my first choice.
Um, I came in with I think itwas education. But uh, I can
actually just took a break fromthat. And then I came back with
a new focus. So what kind ofcriminal justice? Yes.
Jason Varga (01:27):
So what made you What made you change? Like, why
did you want to be criminaljustice?
Unknown (01:31):
I guess. I came in like with I picked education because
I really wasn't actually surewhat I wanted to do. I just knew
I wanted to get into like a,like a public service. Really, I
kind of get just narrowed itdown after just taking some time
to think about it. And why didyou want to get into public
service? Both my parents arepublic servants. My mom is
actually support coordinator forpeople with special needs. And
(01:52):
then she also works for whichNew Jersey Department of
families and children families,sorry, okay, and then my dad's a
retired teacher.
Jason Varga (02:00):
Awesome. All right. So so actually speaking of
teaching and the weaver way,your teachers right next to you,
Joe Rizzo. You're actually justgetting out of your first class
this semester with ProfessorRizzo, aren't you? Yep. Yeah.
How was today's class? Good.Yeah.
Unknown (02:14):
You feel good to be back? Oh, yeah, definitely.
Jason Varga (02:16):
And you've had you've had class with Professor
Reza before, right? Yep. Yeah.So what are we learning from
him?
Jonathan D'Arpino (02:22):
The last class I took with it was
criminal law. So it was justkind of like a, like a kind of
an introductory thing tocriminal law, and just the whole
bunch of aspects of that. Okay.
Jason Varga (02:33):
And so what are you what are you looking to go from
here? Like, you know, criminaljustice, obviously, we'll talk
about it throughout the programcan offer various careers.
Right. So what are you trying tospecialize in? Where do you
think you're trying to go withthis?
Unknown (02:45):
So I came in thinking I wanted to get into law
enforcement, but now I'm kind oflooking at a law school as
another option. So I'm justweighing some different options
at the moment. Okay, just kindof going through and you're a
part of the three plus oneprogram. Yep. Yes. Is my junior
year. Okay.
Jason Varga (02:58):
So the best advice so far, you've taken away from,
you know, any of the criminaljustice classes, you know, for
other students that are comingin,
Unknown (03:06):
I guess, it would be like, kind of just stay diverse
and just be flexible. I mean,like I said, I came in like
thinking I wanted to do lawenforcement. But uh, a few
professors have kind of pointedme towards law school, too.
Jason Varga (03:18):
So we've been kind of thinking you're doing
education? Yeah. So it's theover Yeah, so yeah, definitely.
And what are some of thechallenges, you know, being a
student going through some ofthis program?
Unknown (03:28):
I guess the balance between working finding time to
spend with like, family friends,but uh, yeah, definitely just
balance. Do you mean,
Jason Varga (03:36):
I'll just go into college? Yeah, go to college and
work. Right. Right. So loopingin Professor Rizzo. Is it okay
to call you, Joe? Yes. Joe now,for anybody listening out there
as Joe and I work across thehallway from each other if your
criminal justice wing up thereand Laurel Hall and the 300
suites butts I talked to me awayin the radio, which we're gonna
split it into podcasts. But Joeand I are always talking
(03:59):
baseball a lot of the times andmaybe we'll have you do a little
play by play or something ofsorts. But before we get into
your background, I always liketo ask the faculty members, you
know, why did you pick aparticular student? And, you
know, our person who endorsedsocial media, Victoria Riley
from a marketing department isdoing an excellent story, John.
She said he's an awesome person.Want to know why you think he
(04:20):
was an awesome person?
Joseph Rizzo (04:22):
Well, my experiences with John and class
have been excellent. He's anexcellent student. He's driven,
he works hard. He cares aboutsuccess. And he mentioned law
school. He's an excellentwriter. And certainly that's
going to take him a long way,especially when it comes to
going to law school, but he hasa real interest in criminal
(04:43):
justice every class that he'shad with me. He, he, you can
tell immediately that he careshe wants to do well. So
unfortunate when Victoria askedme for names, Jonathan's one of
a number of really Good studentswho are here that I could have
recommended. And I'm gladJonathan was the one who decided
(05:07):
to do this. Like I said, he'sdone a great job here.
Jason Varga (05:12):
It's when you talk about a great writer, why? Why
is that important in that in hisfield?
Unknown (05:16):
Well, in almost any field, but especially in
criminal justice, you have to beable to communicate. I spent a
lot of time in my career workingfor the New Jersey Department of
Corrections, as has DeputyCommissioner bonds. And, you
know, communication is one ofthe biggest things that we deal
and I dealt with, and he'sdealing with, and simply writing
(05:38):
a report is, for many incriminal justice, law
enforcement name, it's everyday, you're asked to write a
report. And in many cases, itbecomes a legal document. So
that has to be written correctlyand properly. And it's sharing
information. And if you can't dothat it can make for some
(05:59):
stressful situations. AndJonathan is one of many of our
students who can communicate andwrite well, is that is that
true?
Jason Varga (06:08):
Deputy Commissioner?
Willie Bonds (06:09):
Oh, absolutely is true. Communication is a big,
big part of what we do. Thosefrom the outside who may not be
familiar with what we do, may beshocked to hear that. But having
great communication skills canmake or break you on any given
day, if you're not able toeither verbally articulate what
(06:29):
just took place and yourjustification for the actions
that you took, or the actionsthat you did not take. Or if
you're not able to memorializethose actions or your
justification in writing. It canbe it can lead to some
undesirable outcomes, I'll say,or, or at the very least just
(06:50):
difficult situations.
Jason Varga (06:51):
Gotcha. Yeah, I didn't realize that writing was
that important. But think abouthim and talk about just having
to put like I said, but thosereports and then being a legal
binding document, too. It's kindof it's out there. So, Joe,
you're starting to get into yourbackground. So let's, let's talk
about that. I can talk aboutyour own background, and kind of
like what led you up to rcbc andteaching here?
Unknown (07:10):
Well, it's a long story.
Jason Varga (07:12):
I got a little bit of time.
Unknown (07:13):
But I started a long time ago as a public school
teacher. And my neighbor came tome one day and said they need
teachers at the Garden StateCorrectional Facility. And I've
told this story many, manytimes. And to my students, I've
heard it more than once. Iactually thought he had he was,
(07:34):
it was speaking Greek to methat, are you kidding me? That
I'm going to actually you wantme to teach in prison with, you
know, convicted felons, etc,etc. And I had no concept of
what prison was to other thanwhat I'd seen on TV. And I made
the decision to do it, and spentthe next 27 years working for
(07:55):
the New Jersey Department ofCorrections. I will tell you,
and I think, again, DeputyCommissioner bonds will confirm
this. It is a field that manypeople do not think about going
into. In my wildest dreams, Inever thought this is where I
would go. But I'm very proud ofwhat I did there. And I still to
(08:15):
this day, get to talk about it.And I again, I became a teacher
there and was promoted up theranks, I became Director of
Education AssistantSuperintendent, and then I'm
going back over 20 years now Iwas promoted to prison
administrator, New Jerseydoesn't use the term Warden,
they use prison administrator.And that's what I became. I was
(08:37):
administrator of the MountainView correctional facility. And
then I became an administratorof our reception center, retired
and continued to work in thehalfway house field, which is in
conjunction with the Departmentof Corrections. I won't bore you
with all those details, but andthen, as luck would have it, I
(08:58):
became an adjunct professor, andwas hired here full time and
here I am. And yeah, it's been along but wonderful career for
myself. And to be here now atrcbc is just a really a
tremendous benefit to me.
Jason Varga (09:14):
And so what type of courses and content are you
specifically teaching here orCBS? Obviously, it's within the
criminal justice program.
Unknown (09:19):
Well, I teach the corrections classes here, I
teach community corrections,which really go hand in hand in
many respects. And I also teachcriminal law. I'm not a lawyer,
but I really enjoy teachingcriminal law. And as part of our
three plus one program, I teachtheories of crime, you know,
(09:39):
that was a course that we'vebeen teaching here since our
affiliation with RowanUniversity going back to 2016.
And I just finished that class.Jonathan is in that class, we
just finished that at 320. Soum, that's pretty much what I
teach here. And we So we have agreat program here, one of the
(10:02):
larger majors here, it has beenhistorically for many, many
years here, and it's continuingto grow in that regard. So we've
been blessed with a with a largecontingent of students
Jason Varga (10:15):
on Jahnavi. Taking a criminal law course. Yeah,
yeah. So is that what kind ofmade you start to think towards
that of getting sad being like,sad kind of going more towards
being law?
Unknown (10:24):
Yeah. And some family members that I've been to, and
he's in a retired judge as well.So, okay.
Jason Varga (10:30):
All right. So, Joe, you talked about you said, there
was obviously a lot of successstories, like John, do you still
keep in touch with otherstudents? Yeah,
Unknown (10:37):
I mean, we have a number of our, you know, in many
cases, they become policeofficers. And they can you know,
without going through names, andso forth, there's been a number
who become police officers, somestill keep in contact or ask for
references, you often get acall, Mr. Rizzo had you two
years ago, three years ago, I'mtrying to get this job, that
(10:57):
job, etc. And, you know, they'reasking for references and so
forth. So yeah, we still do alot of that, to try to help them
in that regard.
Jason Varga (11:06):
And Wk Mr. Barnes, I will get to in a second I
promise I tried to live ineverybody in but you know, we're
promoting a program here alittle bit on the program pod of
rcbc. So, the these prisonadministrator, slash Warden, or
whatever you have, I'm sure youhave tons of stories. Yes, yeah.
Do you share some of thesestories in class? Yes, I do.
(11:26):
What can you share? Maybe? Well,
Unknown (11:28):
it's just the daily management and the the
individuals who you meet, youknow, when you when you work in
a system, as long as DeputyCommissioner bond, and I did put
us together, it's over 50 yearsof experience, you meet a lot of
individuals. And I'm not justtalking about the offender. And
I know there's a new name forthat now incarcerated person
(11:50):
that incarcerated. Thank you.Yeah, I want to make sure I get
that right, incarcerated person.But it's also the staff you get
to meet, I worked with sometremendous individuals in my
career, who taught me thingsthat I never even thought about
when I started working in abusiness. And I, I've, it's part
of the reason I was successful.And you get to meet a lot of
(12:14):
good people who really careabout what they're doing. And
it's a business where if youneed that support, you need that
guidance every day. You know,and certainly, I've worked with
some notorious offenders who,you know, were well known, not
only in New Jersey, but in theUnited States. But that's,
that's part of it. But you workwith a lot of most offenders
(12:37):
that you work with, they'regoing to be in and out of the
system. They're not staying for3040 50 years. That's not the
norm, you know, but, you know,but the thing that amazed, I
think the thing I can comment onprobably best was the experience
I had with the staff, and theirwillingness to put themselves in
(12:57):
harm's way to keep people safeand secure in very, very trying
and difficult situations. AndI'm sure again, you could he's
he, Deputy Commissioner bond isthe person who really should
talk about this, who's living itas we speak. You know, I've been
retired. And he certainly couldspeak in much more detail than I
(13:19):
could about some of that.
Jason Varga (13:20):
Well, let's use that little segue. One thing
from play, play by play Go. Butokay, again, Deputy
Commissioners bonds here. Wouldyou like to elaborate on that? A
little bit? What's before we getinto some more your background
stuff? What is some of the stuffyou see on a day to day basis?
Or what I was talking about
Unknown (13:41):
sinteres thing question. Because what was kind
of like two sides to it as i isee it anyway. People watch TV
shows like ours is one of themore you know, popular ones. And
people think that everydaycorrections life looks like
that. sensationalized to adegree of course, anything most
(14:02):
things you see on TV aresensationalized a bit. You know,
we do have some tryingsituations, we have some
dangerous situations andscenarios that play out on a day
to day, day to day basis,without a doubt. But on a normal
day, in most facilities, thingsare pretty routine, where you
have individuals getting up inthe morning, they're going to
(14:25):
work, they're going to school,they're going to some type of
program, you know, things ofthat nature, and those those
activities continue throughoutthe day. We do have individuals
unfortunately, who engage inbehavior that's less than
desirable and put our staff insome difficult situations up to
and including staff assaults.You know, those types of
(14:45):
situations, needless to say, areunfortunate and not good
situations for our staff. Butum, yeah, that's kind of what it
looks like on a day to dayperspective. Like, like Joe
said, you know, we do have aWhen people look at it from the
outside in, you know, peoplealways wondering what it's like
we do have some individuals whohave committed some crimes with
(15:08):
some, you know, very high, youknow, notoriety, it's probably
one of the more interestingthings is interacting with those
interacting with thoseindividuals on a day to day
basis, because we interact witheverybody, it doesn't matter if
they're there for a year, or ifthey're there for 4550 years, or
they're doing a life sentence,it doesn't matter, we are
interacting with them on a dailybasis, they are all offered
(15:31):
programming, education, and inall of the services that we
have, that are available for allof them. And just to piggyback
off of what you said, also, Joe,earlier about the incarcerated
population as a whole, at least,I would say anywhere between 80
to 85% of them are going home,we have a very small group, a
(15:51):
small percentage that areserving their life sentence or
multiple life sentences, ormaybe they're at an advanced
stage, and they have a very longsentence as well. And you know,
they may not make it home. Butoutside of that 80 to 85% of
these individuals are comingback to our community. So that's
why another reason it isincumbent upon us to make sure
(16:11):
that we are providing him withthe tools, education to
services, to help them hopefullysuccessfully reintegrate back
into society.
Jason Varga (16:20):
So what kind of tools and services are you
providing? What kind of give usan example? Try to help you know
better than to kind of get themready for that that society
adjustment again?
Unknown (16:29):
Well, one of the main things is education.
Unfortunately, a lot ofincarcerated individuals who end
up with us don't even have anhigh school education. So we
offer GED programs. And we alsooffer higher higher education as
well. Individuals who are thatinterested in motivated, can
(16:50):
obtain their associate's degreeor their bachelor's degree, we
even have a master's degreeprogram. So and these are
partnerships with, you know,obviously, higher education
institutions throughout thestate. On the on the higher ed
side, but um, so those are someof the things on the education
side, we have programming thataddresses substance use
(17:11):
disorders, we have programs thataddress anxiety, any type of use
disorder, whether it be I'msorry, I'm drawing a blank,
mental health issue. No, I wastalking about more specifically,
in a
Oh, yeah, yeah, AAA programs,GA,
(17:34):
any of those programs thataddress any type of addictions,
like you said, also, mentalhealth is a big part. A large
percentage of our incarceratedpopulations has some type of
mental health disorder. So wehave, we have what we call
inpatient mental health,housing, and we have outpatient,
(17:54):
obviously, inpatient is moreintense. But um, so in are a
host of other offerings as well,we have religious services that
are available to theincarcerated population, and
like I said, a bevy of otherprogramming.
Jason Varga (18:09):
So Joe, I know used to take students to think it was
a prison for state correction.Do you still do that? Yes, we
do. Is that a part of hisprogram or something you
oversee? In terms of I mean, Ididn't know for like the
listener or myself, or I don'tknow, you go into prisons and
such. I don't know if that's thesome of the prisons that he's
(18:30):
referencing, or some of theinmates and stuff do you take?
Do you guys team up together?Or, you know, where are you
taking students to kind of seethat for like,
Unknown (18:39):
well, we'll go, we're actually we're, like, we're
scheduled to go to Garden Stateon in October. And we I've done
that for many, many years. Andwe stopped, we're in COVID.
Shorts, you know. But again,thanks to Deputy Director bonds
and his support, we've been ableto start that, again, to be
quite frank. And he's been a bigsupporter of what we're trying
(19:02):
to do here with the students.And again, I'll say this, quite
frankly, he's a member of ouradvisory board here. He's been
nothing but supportive of theeducational piece here. He
speaks in my classes, and he'sencouraged others to get
involved and so forth. And soit's been great. And the touring
(19:24):
to prison adds so much to theclass, it really does. And the
students come back very, verydifferent than before. I tried
to do it right in the middle ofsemester, and their perspective
changes after they've been tothe prison. And then afterwards,
because now they understand manyof the things that we talk about
in class, you can only talk somuch or show a video about
(19:46):
prison life, and no one reallyunderstands it till they see it.
And he actually got to go to aprison and that's because of the
support we get from the NewJersey Department of
Corrections. And I can't thankthem enough because The feedback
that I get from the students isincredible. Many of them say I
never thought about working incorrections. And now by you
(20:09):
taking me to see what goes on,change my perspective, because
often they have a bias as as, asDeputy Director bonds has said
they think it's AWS and it is inAWS. I mean, certainly, can you
put yourself in harm's way?Absolutely. But that's part of
what many aspects of lawenforcement is. But once they
come back, their perspective haschanged. And they realize that
(20:31):
people are doing, you know, it'snot just marching them to eat
and so forth. There'sprogramming and treatment. And
again, for that's availablethroughout the state in New
Jersey and every correctionalfacility in the state. And one
thing I wanted to piggyback ontoon what Deputy Director Bond
said, there is a therapeuticcommunity also, there is an
(20:52):
entire prison and correct me ifI'm wrong, that's dedicated to
treatment for offenders withsubstance abuse. So I mean, it's
out there for them. And youknow, so there's a lot available
to them. But my point is, again,going back to that the students
get to now see it, you know,they see cells, they walk
hallways, they see what the off,the correctional police officer
(21:14):
has to go through on a dailybasis. It's just I can't say
enough about it. You know,
Jason Varga (21:19):
John, have you taken a tour yet?
Unknown (21:21):
No, I actually, I took his correction class, but I
believe it still wasn't offered,
Jason Varga (21:25):
because we're still kind of come back to come back
from it. So I'd be bonds. Why doyou think that's important?
Because I didn't know you'repart of the advisory board and
going into the classrooms seemslike you're really reaching out
to the community and beyond likeyour roles and responsibilities.
Why do you think that is soimportant?
Unknown (21:41):
Well, number one, on a personal level, it means a lot
to me. It's kind of how I wasbrought to corrections. I was
taking a class at CumberlandCounty College, and my professor
at the time was an associateWarden for the federal system.
And an individual spoke aboutthe fact that the state system
was going to be building afacility in Bridgeton, which is
now Southwood state prison, andI spoke about the process and
(22:05):
you know, how you would go aboutgetting hired, if you were
interested in then we actuallytoured Southern State
Correctional Facility in one ofmy classes, that was a that was
a totally different experience.Southern state at that time was
a lot different than it wasprior to us closing it about a
year ago. But anyway, but thatexperience opened my eyes to the
(22:26):
opportunities that wereavailable with the department.
So on a personal note, it meansa lot to me. But from the
department side, it means a lot.And it means a lot to our
commissioner, like she likes tosay all the time. We're trying
to we're trying to we're tryingto pull back the veil on what it
is that we do, because a lot ofpeople don't understand what we
do. They think everything'snegative, you know, there's all
(22:47):
these problems. Look, we do haveour problems. It is a
challenging environment. I'llgive you that for sure. But we
do a lot of positive things. Wehave great staff, they work
hard, they're dedicated, like,like Joe said, you know, our
correctional police officers,they put themselves in harm's
way, you know, at times whennecessary to protect, you know,
their fellow officer, otherstaff members, any incarcerated
(23:09):
population. But, you know, like,I like to tell officers, they
wear many hats, you know, theirofficers, there's counselors,
you know, they play a lot ofdifferent roles to get through a
day. Everybody that works forthe Department plays a role in
the successful reintegration ofincarcerated person. So, we're
trying to educate the publicabout some of our positives,
(23:32):
which there are many sounds likeit. Yeah. Yeah. So so it means a
lot to get that communityoutreach. Absolutely.
Jason Varga (23:39):
So you talked about, obviously, that just
experience and I think I toldyou, Joe, before, like, I, when
I was teaching radio production,you know, I used to bring the
students to the studio itself,because it's one thing to kind
of do it in the classroom andteach them out of the user voice
and stuff and to take them tothe actual broadcast booth,
right, then they could see therise, the real studio setup, and
then you do you can just kind ofsee like them is really starting
(24:00):
to take it in and want to gowith it. But deputy bond or
Commissioner deputy bonds, yousaid that that tour, but was
there also something else thatkind of led you to this career
path or, you know, Tibet, getyou to where you are today,
Unknown (24:13):
um, the opportunities, that professor at the time spoke
about, you know, he was speakingmore about the federal system,
which is, you know, very similarto ours, in a lot of ways, it is
corrections. But he just spokeabout the opportunities that
were available. When you talkabout advancement, when you get
in the door, there's so manydirections that you can go the
(24:33):
you know, we you know, we spenda lot of time talking about
officers and you know, uniformedstaff, that's where I came from.
So that's kind of where my heartis, but that's only a part of
what we do. There are, you know,there are more civilian
positions, we call them civilianif you're not a uniform civilian
positions. Dinorah uniformposition means there are more
actual officers or uniformedstaff, but I'm talking about
(24:57):
variety of decisions fromteachers, the maintenance staff
Add to chaplains, you talk aboutmedical professionals, I mean,
that's just barely, you know,scratching the surface of all
the numerous civilian titlesthat are available to
individuals. And once you get inthe door, then you have
opportunities within thatdivision or that unit to to
(25:19):
advance, you know, you may getto the point where you are the
supervisor of that unit. Andfrom there, you may want to go
further, maybe you do want torun a facility, you want to be
an administrator, so you cankind of work your way up the
tree. You know, a goes in somany directions, and there's so
many branches is just theopportunities are unbelievable.
I tell people, we just had agraduation on Friday, I believe
(25:41):
it was in my memories correct.And one of the things that I
told our recruits, I said,Listen, I said, a lot of people
don't know, this is what we'rethe largest law enforcement
agency in the state. Number one,I said, there are so many
opportunities in thisdepartment. I said no other law
enforcement agency officeroffers the opportunity that we
(26:01):
do, I said, just nobody canmatch. And I'm, I'm sorry, it's
bragging, but it's the truth,just by sheer numbers. So, you
know, that's kind of it in anutshell. For me, it was about
opportunity. And I was fortunateenough to get in the door. And I
was fortunate enough to takeadvantage of the opportunities
that were available.
Jason Varga (26:20):
And that's why I kind of like to have this show
because myself tuning inlistening are just to bring you
guys on the show. When I thinkkind of criminal justice and
like prison reform or whatever Ithink Warden I think just the
the jail guards, right. Andmaybe like the males or the
medical staff or lunch cafeteriastaff and stuff that no it
spiders out as deep as it dideven to like said medical
(26:40):
education, and all that. Andit's why I tried to inform and
educate as well, you know, herewithin the program, and it's
great to see you w getting intothe classroom. And you know,
hopefully, you know, John getsto kind of experience some of
that and decides, Okay, maybethere's other opportunities
going for that. So with that,how what does someone know if
criminal justice is, you know,right for them, or law or
(27:02):
whatever. They can open openflow before to you guys and I
can tap in John is second, too.
Unknown (27:08):
That's an interesting question. And I gave you my
story. Earlier, I never reallythought about working in
criminal justice. I was a publicschool teacher, and transitioned
that into teaching in prison.And then again, to piggyback the
opportunities were there foradvancement, and went back to
college, got my master's degree,so I could be the assistant
(27:32):
education supervisor, andeventually the director of
education, the same, I had toget the same credentials as a
school principal. So that meantthat I was still using my
education background, but I wasalso advancing into prison
system. And that's how I did it.You know, not to speak for
Deputy Commissioner bonds, buthe worked, he was promoted. He,
(27:54):
you know, he's not going to say,but he was promoted to sergeant
lieutenant, you know, and rightup the ranks. And that's how he
did it. But the opportunitiesare there. I think that's the
key piece of it, that again,too, are repeating. But I think
that's a big part of this, thatthose opportunities are there
for you. But like I said, Ididn't really plan on this. It
(28:14):
didn't even cross my mind to bequite frank, but I guarantee you
can get a lot of people who willsay the same thing that oh,
they, you know, again, I'll giveyou a quick story. When I was up
at Mountain View. Many of myemployees came from the
Phillipsburg, EastonPennsylvania area. And a lot of
them would say to me, I said,How'd you get working here?
(28:35):
Well, my, my neighbor got myneighbor said, they were hiring,
or they closed the plant, and weneeded jobs. And somebody said,
they're hiring out to prison.And that's kind of how it
evolved into back then. That'show the word was passed. But I
guarantee if you went to all theother prisons, many of the same
comments were there, or myfather worked here. My mother
(28:57):
worked here, you know, and theyhad a successful career, and the
opportunities there for me. Soit was passed on that way, also,
in many cases, and I suspectit's still that way today.
That's true. That is true. A lotof individuals or a lot of our
staff or legacy staff members.Yes. Where like you said someone
in your family where there'stheir father, their mother,
(29:19):
aunt, cousin, neighbor, youknow, whoever it may be that
introduced them to corrections,because let's be honest, I don't
think anybody growing upnecessarily as a child, so who I
want to go work for corrections.They don't even know what it is.
Yeah, honest. So at some pointin time, you're going to get
introduced some way or another.And that's typically how it
(29:42):
happens. Still, to this day,even though recruiting is much
more difficult. Nowadays. Yes.You know, many, many years ago,
we didn't even have to recruit.Yeah. We had more individuals
interested in seeking employmentwith the department. Then we had
vacancies. Now it's the otherway around. But that's kind of
being mirrored as you know, whatwe're seeing in society as a
(30:03):
whole. And particularly with lawenforcement, we're not the only
law enforcement agency that isstruggling with staffing.
Jason Varga (30:09):
Now. So some of the statistics and stuff might be
we're starting to resign or kindof changing careers. So, I guess
is that like the biggestchallenge right now in the
criminal justice system orcorrections and such as just the
staffing itself?
Unknown (30:24):
Absolutely. By far, that is our biggest challenge
right now. Because listen, inany field, no matter where you
work, you need what you needstaff. In order to get the job
done. In order for you to yourmission to be completed, you got
to have staff, you got to haveboots on the ground. So when you
don't have that, especially onthe uniform side, because this
(30:45):
is where it's more dire, on theuniform side, it leads to
burnout for staff because thewords right out my mouth, it's,
it's true, because when youhave, we have x amount of
officers that are scheduled fora shift, so if we have 20
vacancies, well, guess what,that's going to be filled by
(31:06):
somebody either working a doubleshift, or somebody coming in on
a day off? Well, that's fine,you know, for most individuals
to a degree because you know,everybody, not everybody, but a
lot of individuals like to makesome extra money, you know, by
way of overtime. So a little bitof overtime is actually a
positive thing for staff morale.However, when you're being
mandated to work several times aweek, it gets old, very frankly,
(31:30):
and staff gets tired, they getfrustrated, they get burned out.
And then when they get burnedout, guess what happens? They
stop coming to work. Now, that'sanother vacancy or another five
piquancy. So it quicklysnowballs into a very difficult
situation where we're doing moremandating of staff to work
(31:50):
overtime, then we certainlywould like to. So you know,
since since things have shiftedin that way, where now we have
to go out and recruit that's,that's exactly what we're doing.
We have a recruitment unit, youcan find them at any event
throughout the state, recruitingstaff on a regular basis, trying
(32:11):
to get staff in the door, tryingto educate people, as far as the
benefits of corrections. I mean,at the end of the day, as we all
know, one of the big thingsabout state employment is, you
know, the eligibility for apension, there aren't many
employers other than some statesthat are offering, you know,
retirement plans with definedbenefits. So that's something
(32:33):
that we still have not asgenerous as it used to be, you
know, many, many years ago forthose who've been around for a
while. But nonetheless, listen,it's still a very good, um,
defined benefit plan, and iscertainly worthwhile. It can set
you up for a nice retirement, ifyou know, for anybody who
chooses this career path. So in,you know, it is a law
(32:55):
enforcement field, a lot ofpeople are interested in law
enforcement, but they don'tthink a correction. So we're
educating them about that. Andwe educate them again, I know
I've mentioned this before, butcan't harp on it enough career
advancement. You know, if you'relooking to get ahead, if you
know, before I'm starting again,I typically start talking about
officers, because that's ourlargest segment of our staff.
(33:19):
There are so many opportunitiesfor advancement. So you know,
it's it's about what theindividual wants to do. If you
want to get in the door, youwant to be a sergeant, you want
to be a lieutenant, you want tobe a major, you want to move on
the administrative side. Theopportunities are plentiful.
Jason Varga (33:35):
That's always the hardest part. When you get into
the, into that field, it's howcan I continue to move up?
Right, instead of getting intoit, like with a call dead end
job or something? Right? And itseems like there's obviously
plenty of opportunities and tokind of make things right,
because I know, there's also Idon't want to I mean, you would
know, from professionalexperience, but the some type of
attention out there with thepublic justice system and law
(33:55):
enforcement in the correctionsin society, of course of social
media, kind of adding fuel tothe fire source. And those are
some of the other challenges.But I know people out there want
to make a difference. Right. Andthere's so many ways to make a
difference, you know, through,you know, your work. What do you
think they could do to try tomake the I don't know, public
access system? And I'll saybetter working? I guess a lot of
(34:16):
it has to do with comes down tostaffing a little bit, right?
Well,
Unknown (34:19):
since we're, we're speaking here, I think education
is a part of it. You know, Iwould argue that many that our
students are, we're trying tomake them aware of what society
you know, in terms of whatsociety is and what the criminal
justice system is nationwide.The good and the bad of it. I
think that's our responsibilityas educators, and if we provide
(34:40):
that for them, it gives them atleast an open mind in
considering any area of lawenforcement. And, you know, we
talked a lot today aboutcorrections kind of being like
that, you know, that's kind of aforgotten field. It's incumbent
on us to try to share that withthem. And certainly I'm by asked
obviously, because that's what Idid. So I'm proud of what I did.
(35:03):
And I certainly share that withthe students. But that doesn't
mean it's for everybody. Right,you know. So we try to give them
as many areas that they can workin local law enforcement to
state police, parole, probation.You know, court work drug court,
there's so much out there now,you know, and we try to expose
(35:23):
them to all of it. I thinkthat's our responsibility here
in criminal justice. And we Ithink we do a very good job with
that. I think if you ask, youknow, I asked John, if you asked
Jonathan, I think he's certainlybeen exposed to that. And he's
made, he's working on possiblymaking a decision to go to law
school, which is commendable.
Jason Varga (35:41):
Alright, John would like to elaborate on that a
little bit.
Unknown (35:43):
Yeah, like coming in, I definitely kind of had, like,
some certain notions about,like, what criminal justice
really was. But um, one of thefirst courses I took was
corrections. And that kind ofreally painted a picture of what
was really out there. And it'sjust like, so much more than
actually just law enforcement,there's so many different
aspects that you could get into.
Jason Varga (36:02):
Yeah, I think that just talking about the education
level, because some people makethese that they had to go and
have that perspective, once theystart going through it. And then
they're like, I don't want tohave a gun, I just want to be
gone by the desk and do theadministrative work, right. They
don't want to deal with some ofthe people in the public. But
the, it's kind of like an onionring, peeling back everything
else, you start to see, okay,this can spider into this, but
knowing that there's those jobopportunities and advancement,
(36:23):
and like you said, you know,pension, which we kind of
gravitated to here towardseducation, you know, because
there's a couple of times I wasconsidering leaving and stuff,
but it's kind of tough to leavewhen you have like that, that
pension kind of sitting rightthere known to take care of your
family and your legacy, right,you're kind of going on. But
tying it back a little bit tothis, you know, to our
programming a three plus one,John, the first student that's
(36:45):
maybe again, looking to kind ofget into what would you say
about that three plus oneprogram, and maybe why you would
recommend it to somebody,
Unknown (36:52):
especially for someone who wants to get into law
enforcement, like you can getinto like a local agency with 60
credits, or like, some of themdon't even have any record, like
just a high school diploma orGED. But like, it's picking off
both of those, both of theseguys that are just like
advancing your career in yourcareer, you're basically you're
gonna need a degree and it'sexpensive, you know, in rcbc is
(37:14):
a great option. It's just like,for me, it's like right down the
road. So I'm not reallytraveling that much. The cost of
tuition is pretty low as well.And that also mean the values
Shorrock, your gets a greateducation, just I mean, for?
Well, you know, what I'm saying?
Jason Varga (37:31):
That's all people see, they start to start, they
don't want to be in the debt ofstudent loans. Yeah. And then
they can get into education, getback into the field work, and
kind of right away which toparlay that question, their
Deputy Commissioner bonds,internships, do you guys offer
them? And maybe how does someonekind of go about trying to get
one they want to approach that
Unknown (37:52):
we do have internships, you know, like, like most people
during COVID, just abouteverything stopped, whether it'd
be, you know, internships, orjust about anything that
involved individuals from theoutside coming in the facility,
you know, pretty much came to ahalt. But now that we've, you
(38:13):
know, kind of returned to whatwe call our new normal and
things are opening back up, youknow, we certainly are open to
internships. I mean, you know,because of the work that we do,
obviously, our internships, I'mnot going to say that they're
limited, you wouldn't, we don'thave what they are somewhat
limited, they're not, you're notgoing to have any internships
for an officer, for example,you're not going to shadow an
(38:37):
officer, nothing like that. Butwe have internships in some of
our other you know, divisionsand units. The connections are
sometimes are made through tohigher educational institutions
who have ties to our department,and or through our human
resources department who thoseare the that's the division in
which I would refer anybody to,if they're interested in seeing
(39:00):
what type of internships areavailable to at any given time.
Jason Varga (39:04):
I would think shadowing an officer might be
quite an experience. Internshipitself. Joe, we are we're be
providing internships or do youoften the students are making
them aware throughout theprogram,
Unknown (39:17):
we do both through rcbc. It's a three credit course
that they can take through us.They are all required if they're
in three plus one as seniors totake to do a criminal justice
internship to graduate throughRowan University. So as an
example, Jonathan, probably nextyear, we'll be taking we'll be
(39:39):
doing an internship. And it hasto be approved by you know, the
internship supervisor, who willbe coming to class probably in
the next couple of months totalk to the students about that.
But they all have to do one yes.And I encourage them to take
something that they think theymight be interested in as
opposed to I'll just take thisbecause it's done. On the
(40:00):
street, because in the end, theybenefit benefits. Nobody, it
doesn't benefit the agency. Andit certainly doesn't benefit
them. And they're right backwhere they were. Because it
seems to me more so today than,you know, again, in my time, a
lot of the students aren't surewhere they want to go. They
often are debating back andforth about what area they want
(40:21):
to work in. And not just incriminal justice, but I think in
a lot of fields, but certainlyin criminal justice, that's an
issue. So I try to get them toconsider something that would be
something that they might wantto do,
Jason Varga (40:33):
I think it cuts you off. But internships also open
that door, right? And get you inso much about networking,
Unknown (40:39):
especially in today's world where there's such a need
for people. If you do well, inan internship, say, you know,
the Burlington County Office ofprobation, let's say as an
example, there's a good chanceyou might get a job, the same in
corrections, or, you know, someof the some of the local police
departments are using ourstudents for internships. Well,
(41:02):
they've exposed themselves,especially if they're doing
well, there's a good chancethat, you know, many of these
agencies have openings. There'salso been some freedom through
civil service today, theirrequirements have gotten correct
me from wrong are less strictthan they used to be because of
the need. So it's a tremendousopportunity right now in this
(41:23):
field. Yeah. It's unprecedented.In our, between my years and W
commissioners years, this isjust, it's unfathomable to both
of us that this happened.
Jason Varga (41:36):
Twice, right. I've always pushed my students for
internships as well. Oh, yeah.Because I said, it's just about,
again, who you know, gettingyour foot in the door, and then
you figure out, like you said,your work shows for itself,
because the biggest time and thebiggest, you know, catch 22 is
like, you know, you needexperience, but how do you get
experience without the actualexperience? Right? So you get in
there, you know, and I'm prettysure it's like, almost like a
(41:57):
small world. And you know, inyour fields, like a lot of
people know who other people areworking with no one radio,
people think radio broadcasting.It's such a huge avenue,
especially Philadelphia, like atop five market, top 10 market
and stuff. But really, we know alot of people are connected, you
jump in from radio station, aradio station, you know, you
have like that word of mouth, orlike that letter recommendation,
(42:20):
right? Sure. And you guys sayingthe same thing is for your
field?
Unknown (42:23):
Yeah, it can be. It's a large department. The field
itself is large as well, notjust state county corrections.
And you know, the Fed thefederal, the Federal has several
facilities here in New Jersey aswell. But a lot of us know each
other. If we don't know eachother directly. We know each
other indirectly, or we know,staff members that are part of
(42:46):
their teams, and so forth, andso on. So it's Corrections is a
large, but yet it's in someways, a small community all at
the same time.
Jason Varga (42:54):
All right. Well, before we get ready to wrap it
up, because we're kind of waypast time, but I said I just
getting into conversations, Iget really interested in curious
and trying to pass to educatethe listeners out there
listening, not knowing about alot of this stuff. Now used to
try to work in dad jokesthroughout the show, but trying
to find prison dad jokes. I'msure my Google search bar works
not going to be you know, Imight be getting a letter later,
(43:17):
or an email from MIT orsomething that's kind of going
on. So I'm gonna limit to justone. You don't feel like you
have to laugh for it, or it canbe whatever. And then we'll open
up the floor for some finalthoughts. Some comments,
suggestions and stuff, but whatdo you call call it when a
prisoner takes his own mug shot?Crickets? Crickets? A selfie?
(43:37):
Oh, boy. See, that's how bad itis. Boy, yeah, okay, good work.
I'm not gonna do some of theother ones. Because a lot of
them it's like, they're allplayed off the Sellner. Thanks.
So you're all cracking up nowoff this side? Because it's so
bad. Right? That's the way itis. But again, before we wrap it
up is any final remarks that anyof you would like to say to
somebody again, looking to getinto this field? I know we've
kind of touched base on it.Where to go and do websites to
(43:59):
promote programs, whatever thefloor is yours. I guess we can
start with John, anything youwant to say even just shout out?
Parents?
Unknown (44:07):
Yeah, shut up my parents definitely. I guess like
for someone who's already in thecriminal justice program at
rcbc, or any school. I mightsound like a professor and
administrator but uh, there's alot of great resources a school
has definitely there areinternships. There's an app
handshake. I think it's I'mhonest, I'm on there every day
(44:28):
looking at like, just differentopportunities that are out there
in the field. And that's likeanother thing it just kind of,
it's like a motivation. I guessyou can kind of really see
what's out there what you cando. It's interesting to look at
it. Yeah. John,
Jason Varga (44:39):
if our marks anything?
Unknown (44:41):
Well, I would say again, we as educators try to
expose them to the everythingthat's out there, and it's
available to them. And we alsogive them I think the other
thing is we give them both thepositives and the negatives of
working in this business. And Ithink that's important. We're
very honest with them. and tryto have them understand some of
(45:02):
the things we did do well, andwe didn't do well. And
oftentimes, some of the thingsthat I did when I was working
that today, I'd probably, youknow, would have been not would
have looked upon differentlythan they were back then. And we
share all that. And I thinkthat's important that they
understand that. And I reallybelieve that the experience, the
(45:22):
college experience, certainlyprepares them. For this type of
work. I really do. And I thinkit is a true benefit to the
employer, having theseindividuals who have a degree
from, you know, not only rcbc,but many of the colleges in this
credit
Jason Varga (45:39):
program. Yes, yeah, exactly. Yep.
Unknown (45:42):
Okay, so for me, I'm going to plug the department
Yeah. So efficiently. You know,just careful, I think it's a
Department of Corrections is awonderful career, it is
challenging. At the same time,it is very rewarding, though.
You know, for myself, I alwaysuse myself as an example, not
because I want to tell my story,per se, because I don't like
telling my story. But I share itfor those so that they can
(46:05):
understand what's possible forthem. When I started as an
officer, 25 years ago, I wouldhave never thought I'd be
sitting where I'm sitting rightnow, never would have thought
that in a million years. But yetit happened because I was
ambitious. And I, every time Iwas promoted into a position, I
mean, I always started thinkingabout what's next down a route.
(46:27):
So if I can do it, I like totell people, anybody can do it.
It's all about what you want todo what you want to see in your
career. If you are interested ina career in the New Jersey
Department of Corrections, youcan just go to the New Jersey
Department of Correctionshomepage, and it has all our
information and you know,different links to tell you
where to go in order to seekemployment. One good thing that
(46:50):
I do want to mention that peoplemay or may not know, you know,
we are a civil service, youknow, agency just like you know,
all state agencies, but for tobe an officer, you do not have
to take the civil service testanymore, you can take the civil
service test and be hired thatway. But thanks to the
legislator, in a governor whosigned off on a law, we are able
(47:14):
to hire directly from thestreets, we don't have to just
hire from the Civil Service listwe are we're actually doing both
nowadays. So individuals, like Isaid, can go to the website,
follow instructions and workthrough our recruitment unit in
order to complete theapplication, the background
check, and all of the thingsthat you need to do to get
hired. So most people were usedto the old way where you had to
(47:37):
sign up, you had to pay the fee,you had to take the civil
service as you had to wait foryour rankings to come out. Hope
the department called you soforth and so on, you don't, you
can still do that. And I wouldencourage anybody who's
interested in corrections tostill take the test when it's
available, but you don't have towait for that you can go to our
website, and we'll walk youright through the process. We
(47:58):
need people we want people. It'sa great career. So I encourage
anybody who's interested to goto our website,
Jason Varga (48:06):
and the website is Department of corrections.gov or
NJ or a J nj.gov. Alright, we'regonna just Google it,
Unknown (48:12):
you're gonna find it if you go to the to the state of
New Jersey homepage, where youhave all the agencies and audit
departments. That's one easy wayI direct people. You go there
and then you can you can
Jason Varga (48:24):
click on the sub links. Yep. Okay, awesome. All
right. Well, that's going to doit for this episode again, the
first one of the fall semesterthe fiscal 2023 or 24 Really,
but for the fall 2023 This hasbeen Jay Varga and again with my
go on my guests, Jonathan dark,you know, the criminal justice
major here rcbc system Professorrcbc, Joe Rizzo and of course
(48:48):
Deputy Commissioner of JerseyDepartment of Corrections.
Willie boss. Gentlemen, thanksfor coming on the show Jim. Good
time. Good times. So again, togo learn more information about
rcbc Is programs you can visitrcbc.edu and for other rcbc
podcasts that we have, includingthe new Baron s podcasts
featuring powerful women abroadto county good rcbc.edu/podcasts
(49:11):
Also be sure to subscribe to theprogram pod and any where you
get your podcasts at so thatApple, Google Spotify and
everything else but so nexttime, thanks for listening and
enjoy
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