133 - Villains Turned Heroes: Why The Villain to Hero Trope is One of Media's Most Effective Arcs - The Project Infinite Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's the.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Infinite Podcast.
Go tell your friends, it's theInfinite Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
My God, it never ends .
It's the Infinite Podcast withRobin Korn for Q.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of
the Project Infinite Podcast, apodcast covering the infinite
and ever-expanding multiverse offandom, from movies, comics, tv
shows, video games.
We got you covered A little bitof everything today.
I'm Rob, I'm here, as always,with Court, court.
We're doing a fun topic againtoday.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, we love the topics.
Two for two on the weeks andtopics, I love it.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, me too.
So obviously Agatha all along.
I keep thinking back to likethe covenant chaos thing, but
it's agatha all along is comingout, uh, two weeks from now.
Um, so we thought, obviouslynext week I'm jumping on next
week's topic we're going to talkabout wandavision, because we
never properly talked about it,oh, no ever on this podcast,
because we started this afterwandavision was already we were

(01:01):
in contract negotiations forthis podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
We didn't know what was up.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, so next week we're going to talk about
WandaVision, but this week, inthe spirit of Agatha all along,
we're going to be talking aboutour favorite villain-to-hero
turns across all types of mediaVideo games, movies, tv shows.
Just a fun topic that we'rejust going to volley back and
forth on some of our favorites.
Um, we got some good ones, somegood ones cooked up, so look
forward to that.

(01:25):
Uh.
But first we do have some news,starting with I can't believe
I'm doing this minecraft.
So we got a trailer for theminecraft movie.
No good, I don't like it, Idon't like it, I, I.
Again.
We're going down this path,these video game adaptations of
why are we adapting things intolive action?

(01:46):
Specifically, I mean Minecraftmore than any game.
There's no story, it'sliterally just freedom incarnate
.
It's whatever the user wants itto be.
I don't see a point instoryboarding a Minecraft movie.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
So I'm always on the fence about that point, because
I do see where you're comingfrom of like this ip does not
have plot.
However, you know fallout hasplot, but I feel like fallout's
very free-ranged.
You know what I mean.
So you need a special type ofwriter.
I think the issue here is tone.
That's my problem with this,this is this just seems like

(02:24):
they don't know what type ofmovie they were going in to make
.
And I don't know what jasonmomoa is doing here.
I don't know what he's doinghere me either.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
It's like they're trying to do, it's like they're
trying to do with jason momoa,and that's what what jumanji
tried to do with the rock.
Sure, where they're having himplay against, type a little bit,
where the rock is.
Obviously in jumanji.
He's built like a, he's builtlike the rock, but he's
inhabited by the body of, likethis nerdy, scared teenager.
So that's how he's acting andit feels like they're going for

(02:54):
something similar here.
Um, and it just, I don't know,it just doesn't land.
And then jack black is playingsteve from minecraft.
Um, who's like, I guess, of allthe Minecraft characters, he is
the character.
He's Steve, he's SteveMinecraft, but I just this movie
looks like it's all over theplace and it just looks like

(03:17):
it's destined for oblivionessentially.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
I mean, I think it still might perform a little bit
because obviously it's going tobe wide release.
It's Minecraft yeah, kids loveMinecraft, Kids do love
Minecraft.
I do see potential in this ofbeing a fun, dumb little movie
that comes out and no harm, nofoul.
I just have a fear there'sgoing to be a lot of harm.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
And I mean to that point.
There's always a chance thatwe're aged, like we're aged out
of this and like we're just notthe target, Like we're not the
demo for this.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
I just mean as a movie, if you want to, if you
want to get technical, itdoesn't look great.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, I mean even even for like a kid's movie.
It doesn't look great, you know, and that's not really

(04:11):
indicative of like a children'smovie tone.
Um, so I don't, I don't know,like it just feels like.
It feels like they're makingthis movie and they're making it
like just not knowing who it'sfor, and that's always like my
refrain on the show is like whois this for, right?
Um, and I don't know, I don'tknow who this is for, um, so I
don't know.
I'm, I'm not, I'm not overlyoptimistic, uh, speaking of
things that I'm cautiously, butalso not overly optimistic for

(04:33):
the mandalorian and grogu.
So sigourney weaver has joined,joined the cast.
Who do you think she's playing?
Who knows john star?
wars um, yeah, I mean it couldbe.
Literally.
It's going to be somebody thatwas written for Sigourney Weaver
, presumably.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, I mean it's very encoded of what they did
with her for the Defenders.
You sign all-time great actorSigourney Weaver.
You're just like here's thisrole that has nothing to do with
anything.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, I mean funny enough, the last really not last
thing she was in, but like oneof the things that she's been in
recently that didn't do thatwas avatar.
Right, like it feels like she'sactually playing a character
instead of just playingsigourney weaver.
Right, playing two characters inavatar actually um, but yeah, I
, I can't imagine she's gonna beany.
I mean, she'll be someone ofconsequence, but I don't think

(05:23):
it'll be like we're not gonna beable to predict it.
She's gonna be someone that,like you said, like your
defender's point, like she'sgonna be someone that was
written sigourney weaver.
You know, this role is.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
We got you on right now it almost feels like we
casted you and now we're givingyou the role right right, it's
like and hollywood does thatit's just like they'll have to
create the character and they'llthink of somebody in their mind
and then, like they'll know theactor and they'll try to write
around the actor.
Usually when sigourney weavergets cast nowadays, I like this
is not barring avatar, becausethat was she already had been in

(05:53):
that franchise before, likesomething like that seems very
much of uh, you know, we knowwhat this is, we know, we know
who this is for.
This is for you, sigourney.
Like we're gonna write this foryou in the way that you're
encoded.
It's funny that we talk aboutthat and like obviously we're
gonna talk about terminatorjumping the gun a little bit
later.
But sure, how, in that era, likehow important sigourney weaver

(06:14):
was to movies, like yeah, she'sone of the all-time great.
Yeah, because I was thinkingabout, like her and linda
hamilton and terminator, likehow these are two women that
like revolutionized the genres,that they were the sci-fi genre
they were in, like they were,they are two and we I think we
talked about it as well we hadan episode where we talked about
some of our favorite favoritewoman characters and and movies
and tv and we immediately, likelinda hamilton and sigourney

(06:39):
weaver are always at the top ofthat list yeah, I mean, you talk
about alien, you talk aboutghostbusters, like she's.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
You know she's a staple of that kind of genre.
Right, you know she's stillcooking to this day, which is
really really great, right,speaking of people that are
still doing things, so Ocean's14 is officially happening.
This news hit, I think, today,um, or yesterday, I can't
remember, but uh, so far, bradPitt and George Clooney are both

(07:06):
going to return and thedirector will be Edward Berger,
who you may know as the directorof all quiet on the Western
front, which got a lot of uhawards buzz when it came out.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, I want a decent amount at the Oscars too.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
And uh, I I mean the Oceans movies have always been
stellar.
They're some of the best heistfilms and I mean I guess this
was only a matter of time.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
I suppose I mean in an era of returning to past
things and I see it too.
I know they just did that movieWolves.
I have a feeling that on thatset they were like we couldn't
do it again, right?
I genuinely think that'sexactly how the conversation
went.
They were like we couldn't doit again, right?
I genuinely think that'sexactly how the conversation
went.
They were like we couldn't thetwo, we couldn't do this, right.
Like the two of us couldn't dothis, and they were like wait a

(07:50):
minute maybe we can do thisagain.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
And I mean we've talked.
We talked about oceans.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
That's Entente, and I mean the Oceans franchise is, I
mean, just littered with moviestars.
So I'd be curious to see ifanyone else comes back.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
That's exactly what I was about to ask.
I want two actors that you wanton this new heist team.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Like new or returning .

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, we can do at all time.
But I mean, oh, I think let'sdo this.
I'm obviously not established,but I mean mean one like classic
actor, like somebody that'sbeen in hollywood for years, and
then somebody from that, thisnew guard that we've been
getting well, I mean, I wouldwant to see matt damon come back
that would be fun okay um, andthen I mean I think glenn powell
is tailor-made for this for anoceans movie like he just has.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
That you know he has it like you.
Like that's what these oceanscasts always had, like every
single one of them had, like it.
When you're talking aboutclooney damon, katherine zeta
jones, uh, bernie mack, doncheadle don cheadle, julia
roberts, like all these oceansactors always had like it.
So I feel like I feel like youknow glenn powell fits yeah,

(09:01):
it's that bill, especially afterhitman, like this, that was
kind of his audition to to be inthis oceans.
So I feel like Glenn Powellfits that bill, especially after
Hitman.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
That was kind of his audition to be in this Ocean's
Boobies, if he so choose.
But Glenn Powell is a very,very busy individual he's
working with.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Edgar Wright he sure is.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Obviously, hitman just came out, just got a lot of
buzz for him.
He's probably going to be themain character with Miles Teller
for Top Gun 3.
So he's got work for his work.
Um, you have to.
So an actor that's already beena like that's been around for a
while, I mean, I feel like itwould just be.
It would be too, it would betoo insane not to get paul run

(09:37):
into there.
I feel like that would be a fun, a fun addition to there too.
Um, and then austin butlerwould work in there too.
It's the same 100 percent.
I feel like he's the one thattalks to the lady, like to the,
to the bartender.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, distract everybody like that's his,
that's his type, like I feellike that would be fun yeah, I
agree that's a great pick and,honestly, someone that that
hasn't been in one that alwaysfelt like he always should have
been le Leo.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, I wonder if I don't even know how to say this
without sounding disrespectful,but I feel like for Leo, it was
beneath him to do an Oceansmovie.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, even though Brad Pitt was there and George
Clooney and George Clooney, butI just feel like that type of
genre just suits him.
Sure, I mean, gosling isanother one that I feel like
would yeah, yeah, he would be.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
If, the if, if he was younger, I feel like it would
have worked, but I yeah, I thinkhe's.
He's at that point where he'slike I need to be top build and
whatever I either equal topbuilder or the top build and
whatever I do, he's he is.
He is the.
Even the glenn powell's point.
He is the.
I am a movie star now maybe,but he is the movie star.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, zendaya would be fun
in there too.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Florence Pugh probably would be phenomenal in
an Ocean's movie.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Margot Robbie too, Margot.
Robbie yep, would be great, butyeah, I think that's fun.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Anya.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Taylor-Joy probably would be, oh yeah, incredible in
an oceans movie.
Yeah, yep, 100.
Yeah, that's true.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think it'scool, like I think you know,
take a, take a crack at one ofthese you know properties.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
You're gonna bring the actors back, maybe a sell
for the movie is like they tryto get their crew back, like the
og crew, and then this youngcrew comes along.
That's just so efficient and sofun.
Yeah, you get your, your AustinButler's, your Florence Pugh's,
your Zendaya's around.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Like time has passed you by Right, like you guys,
future's.
Now, old man, um, get some Paul.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Rudd's still on the young team Um we had some DC
news.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
So, first and foremost, uh, I didn't have this
in there, but I guess we couldpull it together.
But uh, joker is getting someearly reviews and they're not
great yeah see, I love I thinkthis started two years ago.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Venice film festival is going on right now.
It's that time of year I lovethis, the best time of year, um,
the fall season, into thewinter, right into the oscar
season.
Um, this is where you're gonnaget all your film festivals
going on, all your all.
I love this.
It's the best time of year thefall season, into the winter,
right into the Oscar season.
This is where you're going toget all your film festivals
going on, all your awards seasonchatter.
So you know, obviously, joker 1performed billion-dollar well
and, you know, oscar-worthy well, which is great, won two Oscars

(12:19):
right Score and Best Actor.
So you know, you're going intoa second one with the same team.
Like you gotta feel confident.
You do have you, you must haveto and you do have to.
So obviously you go to venicefilm festival.
11 minute standing ovation.
Now here's the thing I.
There was another movie that Iknow got very, very good reviews
and it got a six minutestanding ovation.

(12:40):
So this is my thing.
The longer the standing ovation, the worse the movie it thing.
The longer the standing ovation, the worse the movie.
It's a great.
You know it was last year wasthe big one where people were
trying to decipher the amount ofthe standing ovation and how
good the movie was going to be.
You can't go to seven minutes,but if you're under five minutes
, but if you're over 11 minutes,something's wrong.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, this is interesting, right, I think it's
.
I mean, who knows, at the endof the day, who knows if this
movie is going to be as asmiddling as as the reviews are
saying?
But at the same time, like inan.
You know, we've kind of talkedabout this before, like in an
era where now, like back then,right back then 2019, when joker
came out, like it was kind ofthis kind of like shock the

(13:22):
system, you know, kind of comicbook property.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
But now like and again, that was also in the era
where the MCU just finished, forlack of a better term Like that
was the not the end of the MCU,but that was like they did it.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Like comic book movies were comic booky, and
then this comic book movie atthe end of the year was just so
not comic booky, yeah, so andthen you got, you know, and then
the batman came out, which wasobviously super grounded, um,
and then just a lot of otherthings that just have grounded
the genre and I just I don'tknow if this movie is suffering
from that because, like you know, if this is just going to be

(13:56):
joker again, I just don't thinkpeople are going to take to it
and then also the second timearound.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
You add the musical element on top of that too yeah,
there could be.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
There could be a tonal conflict that obviously we
haven't seen because themovie's not out yet, but, like I
can imagine, you know it mightbe totally confusing.
Sure that's.
Musicals are hard to pull off,yeah, especially if the director
doesn't believe his movies yeah, well, that's, that's the thing
.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
It's like the where's the vision, like what's the
what's the through line of thisvision.
So yeah, and obviously you,obviously you know there's
stigma around you know aroundLady Gaga as well, like some
people don't think she can act.
I disagree with that point.
I also disagree with that.
But I mean, we'll see, we'llsee this is going to be an
interesting one.
I just hope.
I hope that people are beingtough on it now because you know

(14:41):
it's the Venice Film Festival,but then coppola released
megalopolis too and I'm like Idon't know who to believe
anymore.
Right, apparently that movie isjust like.
There's no words to describethat movie, like it is just a,
it's anarchy.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
I've heard right with ai, with ai generated quotes,
right, which isn't great.
Um, speaking of the batman, uh,we got a little bit little tiny
bit of sliver of detail frommatt reeves about what, the what
, the tone of the batman.
Uh, we got a little bit, littletiny bit of sliver of detail
from matt reeves about what, the, what, the tone of the second
movie is going to be and andwhere it could go in the future.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Um, he said this is basically going to be in another
mystery film, much like thefirst film was, and that he
isn't overly interested in everdiving into the more fantastical
elements of the batman universe, which I don't think people
should be surprised by, but forsome reason are I just think
it's because the limbo of wherehe was gonna fit in, and then I
I liked in the batman in thefirst one, how it was like

(15:33):
obviously this is very, very,very, very grounded, but there
was still.
There was still a sliver oflike hmm, maybe, maybe he could
do like a clay face.
So I mean that confirms likethis is gonna be like no one's
dark.
Like this is there's nosuperpowers, nothing like that.
Like this is this.
These are just crime thrillers,which is just great.
Some of the best batman storiesare crime thrillers I mean it's

(15:54):
probably sets up.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
You know, it either sets up probably one of two
things it's either setting upcourt of owls or it's setting up
h.
Those are.
I mean, I would say those areprobably the two prevailing
plots right now.
If it's going to be anothermystery film, yeah, and
obviously the first one had thethe hush kind of elements to it.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Well, I told you when that, when that first movie
came out, I said this might beone of the greatest setups to do
.
Hush and the second one.
What you're going to do isyou're going to make the hush
report hush reporter.
That's the point that thatreporter that you know was
killed.
You know inadvert, notinadvertently, but you know that
thomas wayne had killed ortaken care of that's hush's
father.
So, yeah, and then a kid thatgrew up with bruce wayne, like

(16:36):
that was friends with bruce whenhe was a kid like what a great
way to start the second one.
And then, if you can find a wayto do this like ultimate
conspiracy in Gotham, like youdid in the first one, but make
it Court of Owls, you really canstart to play around with some
things too.
You add a Robin into there too,you add Dick Grayson into there
.
You still can get yourquote-unquote comic book-y
elements.
But I think they're doing agood job of toeing the line.

(16:58):
And I mean that film was justit's funny, because I still like
this movie is like a nine outof 10.
When it came out, that moviekeeps aging like fine wine, even
after each.
It is insane how dangerouslygood that movie is.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, and then, and then also, it's been confirmed,
seemingly confirmed, that hewon't be showing up in the
penguin series.
Yeah, but Bruce Wayne might.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
I'm still, I still am holding that thing where Bruce
is going to show up himself.
Yeah, interesting Getting thatthe same, I think in the same
day as Agatha.
It's like Agatha's on the 18th,penguin's on the 19th, yeah
yeah, and some Green Lanternnews.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
So Josh Brolin has been reportedly offered the role
of Hal Jordan, and if JoshBrolin for some reason decides
he doesn't want to do it, ewanMcGregor and Matthew McConaughey
are also on the shortlist, soobviously we're going for an
older Hal.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Jordan.
Obviously, I'm so interested.
I saw that and got giddybecause I was very I wasn't
shocked at all.
I have a feeling I know whathis sell is and I kind of know.
I have a feeling I know whathis cell is.
I think a big piece of whathe's going to want his DCU to
look like, his legacy, is goingto be a big, a big through line,
and I can get it from the fact.

(18:14):
I mean, it's my point that Ialways said about the DCEU that
you should have made Ezra MillerWally West instead of Barry
Allen.
Like I think that James Gunn'sgonna do that with some of the
characters.
Like we might start with WallyWest.
Like we've how many times havewe seen Barry Allen since 2014?
Like we've seen a lot of him.
Like, obviously, to his help tothe Arrowverse didn't use Wally

(18:35):
West overtly too many times.
Like he was in a couple seasonsof the Flash.
That was it.
Like maybe you start with WallyWest and you do the thing where
you know they they knew eachother before and like what
that's going to help too isreally prop up Superman.
Like make Superman like he camein late to this, but like
everybody follows him when hegets there Cause of the symbol
of hope he is.
I think that's such aninteresting point so I'm all in.

(18:57):
I know some people and you knowI talked about it before we
hopped to people's brains of howJordan is not from a comic
center, like it's such a RyanReynolds sense, so like that's
the only version of how Jordanthey think exists.
It's like this brass, like youknow, fly boy.
That's, like you know, somewhatcharismatic, somewhat a jerk,
which he is, he still is andeven after what I'm about to say

(19:19):
, he's still.
He still is, but is.
But if you go post greenlantern rebirth, hal jordan,
after he was the specter, that'swhere I think brolin is perfect
for something like that, likethis, like I've seen some stuff,
like I've seen some stuff, Iwas dead and I was the specter
while I was dead.
Like I've seen things, likeI've seen things you people
couldn't believe shout out,blade runner.

(19:39):
But like I, like this mentorfigure type of role, especially
for somebody like hal j, likedon't run away from the fact
that he was that, that, like youknow he was your kind of, like
you know your Iceman slashhangman from the Top Gun series,
like he was, like that jerkthat used to fly around, and
then he got this green lanternring.
He learned responsibility andthen he died.
And then he you know he did, hecommitted some absolute

(20:06):
atrocities and then he died.
And then he came back to life,like put brolin in that role
where he's like I'm going toteach you john stort, who's
going to be the main characterof the show, like I'm going to
teach you how to not do what Idid, but also I who.
I think this lantern show isabout to be absolutely insane,
true detective inspired, likemurder mystery, which you're
gonna, if you, if you want toread what you're going to read
is you're going to go throughthe Geoff Johns run, it's, I

(20:26):
think they're going to doBlackest Night.
That's what I think this whole,because they said there's like a
conspiracy on Earth, like theconspiracy on Earth is, I think
they find Necron, like they find.
And then, next thing, you know,the Black Lantern rings are
literally taking everything over.
Like that would be insane ifthey just start with some, like
there's just some murders aroundand like you know the space
cops on Earth, or the space copslike oh, it's just like, can

(20:48):
you the Guardians?
Like can you handle this Likethis is nothing big.
Can you handle this?
Like, oh, the universe is aboutto end if we don't take care of
this?
Like I feel like that long-termstorytelling you inject it into
the background of some of themovies, like the lantern show
just blows up after that.
I feel like that's so cool andthat's why mcconaughey's on the
short list.
There's no way, that's, that's,they weren't gonna think about

(21:09):
that yeah, yeah, I think it's.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
I think it's a.
I think it's a superinteresting idea and like how
jordan's one of those charactersthat you know in live action
obviously hasn't had a lot ofplay.
So I feel like you can kind ofjust put him wherever you want
on the timeline and people justbuy him, like I don't, I mean,
obviously he's a belovedcharacter, but at the same time,
like it's kind of like the TonyStark thing with Iron man, like
you can kind of play a littlebit with what you want to do and

(21:34):
, like I think about this too.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Is he beloved or is the stigma of Hal Jordan beloved
because of what happened in themovie with Ryan Reynolds, Green
Lantern?

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, and then with Ryan Reynolds' Green Lantern,
yeah, and then obviously theanimated stuff.
Hal Jordan 2, when he's kickingaround, is also kind of brash.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, and that's cool and that's pre-Parallax,
pre-him, and that's the thingabout the best reveal of
Parallax.
Hal Jordan did those thingsObviously he was possessed, but
heordan did those things likeobviously he was possessed, but
like he still did those thingson impulse.
So yeah you know him destroying,like coast city getting

(22:11):
destroyed and like him having tocome back.
Like that.
Green lantern rebirth is one ofmy favorite comics ever.
Like that was.
I think that was the one of thefirst comics I read when I got
back into reading comics.
Like it's so, it's, it's justso uplifting for how to, because
it's like him coming back, likethat panel of him coming back,
it's like that's what it shouldfeel, like that's what a prime
looking at a prime version of acharacter should look like.

(22:33):
So I just like this kind ofcross between you know, and I
think james gunn said it, hesaid that for his movies there's
not going to be like astreamline where like yeah, you
know, we know from the mcu, likeand you know, it's kind of why
people like edgar wright leftand like how our theory of like
chloe xiao is like I want to dothese things, they're like just
relax, like pump the brakes alittle bit, like they wanted

(22:54):
that uniformity to an extentthrough things.
So I think james gunn probablywants the opposite.
He's probably like I'm gonnaget directors who are known for
these things and let them justoperate like I will.
I will weave this the way Ineed to weave it and then,
whatever the team-up movies are,we'll address when it gets
there.
But yep, I want you guys toplay around with your characters
however you deem fit, howtonally you deem fit, and then I

(23:17):
will worry about getting themback to where they need to yep
yeah, totally.
Um, who do you want to play JonStewart?
Because that's probably goingto be super duper important for
this.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
It depends, I guess, what you want him to, If you
want him to be younger or if youwant him to be a little bit
older.
I guess that would be the firstquestion, I think.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
I want him to be younger If they're going to do
this whole, because in thecomics Jon and Hal aren't too
much off in age, but for this itseems like they want the age
gap on purpose.
They want this definitive.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
If you want to do someone that's relatively young,
not like super young.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
No, I know.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
But like 30s, like late 20s, early 30s, I mean I
would give John Boyega a call.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
I think he would do it too.
I think he would do it and Ithink the sell is, especially
after you know Star Wars Yep,star Wars and his phenomenal
performances and then CloneTyrone Like I feel like he'd be
ready to step back into like afandom role, but like also, the
sell for him is like we're goingto do some cinema in here too,

(24:30):
like this, like the same thingthat you did before, like you're
gonna get to actually do theacting in this yep, and we
always talk about it theprogression of john voyeg is
acting from episode seven toepisode nine.
It is disgusting that theydidn't just make him the main,
one of the main characters ofthat thing.
Yeah, um, I love that johnvoyeg a pick.
I feel like that he would be,and especially with brolin, I
feel like he would be good.
Um, I think desmond idris wouldbe incredible for something
like that, and my brain isthinking in a true detective
sense of the fact of it too.
I feel like Desmond Idris wouldbe.

(24:51):
He'd be like this littleovertly cocky, but like he's
smart on top of that too.
Uh-huh, I feel like that willplay a role with Brolin's like
dude, I was you, like I was you.
I was.
I was running and gunning, Igot this power, I got this ring
and I was like I can do whateverthe heck I want and it's not
that simple.
And again, I like this wholething of just a small conspiracy

(25:14):
.
There's a couple dead bodiesthat are going around and the
next thing, you know, the BlackLanterns are all coming back.
I feel like that would be great.
It would be probably a goodfirst justice league movie if
you want to do somethingdifferent.
Sure fits james gunn's mold anduh, what's it called?
I know they're doing.
They're doing swap thing, right, supposedly.
Yeah, swap things important tothe, to the um, to the blackest

(25:36):
night story too.
So I have a feeling that's whathe's gonna do.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
I think he wants to do blackest night yeah, yeah, I
think I think that makes a lotof sense to me.
Um, yeah, I think I totallyagree with that.
That just is a good pick toofor john stewart.
But I just think, you know, Ithink you could easily pitch
this to john boy again.
Just be like, hey, you know,obviously the last thing didn't
go your way, but now we want togive you like your thing, you

(26:01):
know, and you're gonna let josh,like josh brolin's, gonna kind
of be like your figurative andliteral mentor, your thing, and
you're going to let Josh Brolinbe your figurative and literal
mentor and Josh Brolin,especially after Dune.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
I read the Dune photo book that they did for Dune 2
and just him talking about theyoung talent.
Josh Brolin seems like such agiving actor and I think that's
what they probably want for thisrole and this is why I love
what direction they're going forthe dcu, and especially after
james gunn's comments a few daysago like this is gonna be like

(26:32):
tonally what this, what?
Whatever the story needs, it'snot gonna be.
We need to fit something.
It's like whatever your storyneeds, like whoever the director
that like do what you need todo, as long as it's quality.
Do what you need to do, yep 100percent.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Um, and the last bit of news I got, so george george
rr martin has come out, uh, andthen since deleted, um, his
relatively scathing criticism ofof some elements of season two
of the house of the dragon andwhat he feels is going to happen
in season three or four, um, hejust had some issues with some
changes that were made, somecharacters that were omitted.

(27:07):
Hbo has defended Ryan Connelland company, basically saying,
like we believe in the vision,like we respect George Martin's
work, yada, yada, yada.
George Martin was criticalmostly of a couple things.
One mostly revolving around thefirst episode of the season,
the blood and cheese episode,you know, in which the major
change from Fire and Blood, hisstory, is that in the book Blood

(27:29):
and Cheese obviously givesHelena the choice of a child to
have executed and then Blood andCheese essentially make the

(27:51):
decision for her, which is thechange from the show where she
offers them a necklace and theneventually relents on one of the
children.
And then the other is theomission of Aegon's second son,
Maelor Targaryen, from the showentirely.
And George Martin likened it tothe butterfly effect,
essentially like Maelor as atoddler, obviously at the events
of Blood and Cheese, but thenprogresses to a more important
character later on.
And then he basically saidSeason 3 and 4 has potentially

(28:11):
more toxic changes in store fromthe source material, but then,
like I said, the blog post hassince been deleted.
So interesting, to say theleast, it feels like he might be
getting a little bit of likeSeason 8 Thrones PTSD
potentially.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
I thought of you know what's funny?
I actually thought about thattoo.
I thought about that when wewere talking about it before Of
like he there's probably fearthat comes with it, and like
it's known that he didn't haveThrones Like this, 8 was
Freestyling.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
I mean a lot of it didn't have thrones Like this.
Eight was six, seven and eightmostly were freestyling Right.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
But like see how there's dichotomy to that,
because six and seven arephenomenal, yeah, and then eight
is eight, yeah.
So it's funny.
This doesn't have to do withanything, but I love when people
are like it's the worst thingthat I've ever seen in my life.
And then I'm like season eightof Game of Thrones.
Some creators would murder tohave quality like that Most of

(29:08):
them would.
But I digress Anyway, on GeorgeRR's front.
How I'm kind of fallen is it'stough when you make the thing
and you have to give it away.
It's like giving away a child.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
He said that in the past too.
I think he's actually said thatexact thing about like it's
kind of like giving up a child,in a sense, like letting you
know, letting someone else adaptyour work Right.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
And it's you have to.
There's a level of trust thatyou need to have and I mean, I
know George watched Andor and hewas just like, yeah, they
finally get that.
This is actually politicalRight.
Anyway, I don't know how.
This is a tough one because,like you know, you want to be on

(29:54):
the creator side.
But like, how old is George now?

Speaker 2 (29:57):
He's 82 or 81.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
See, I don't want to be that like ageist, but you
know, part of this could be likedon't do this thing, don't
change anything, don't adaptanything to be different, like
dude, if you're not the solewriter of this, like you made
the decision, it's not up to you.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Obviously, we want your input, like you are the man
that made this possible, yeah,however, you're not directly on
the show as one of the headwriters.
You're just not.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, yeah, I mean at the end of the day, like you
know it's, it's great thatobviously they gave him some
some input.
I know he was, you know he wasyou, you know, kind of in the
writer's room with with thedirector, ryan condell, of the
showrunner and that should be.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Look at the respect that you're, that ryan's giving
you, like a lot of peopleprobably wouldn't do that of
like be like, we're gonna do ourown thing.
We, like you, did your part.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Like and at the end of the day too, like george
byron is a, is a, he's awriter's writer.
So like um and he's a, he's afantasy writer on top of that,
so like yeah, yep you know, I,I'm 90 sure there there are
probably I mean, I know for surethere are many things in game
of thrones that he wanted toprobably have in there and
probably a lot of things inhouse of the dragon that he

(31:13):
wants to have in there.
But the reality is like writingfor tv and writing for teeth
and writing for, you know,writing books are two different
things.
I mean, honestly, look, I'm notgonna begrudge him and I,
because he's, he's 90 milliontimes the writer I could ever
hope to be but a lot of the, alot of the Thrones episodes that
were penned by by George RRMartin are among the kind of

(31:34):
clunkiest.
You know, if you, if you gothrough his, his, his writing
credits on the show, his, hisshow, his, his, his episodes
often feel very expositiony, andthat's because he's a writer's
writer who doesn't write for tv.
So I just, I feel like there'san element of that too, where,
like he just sits back and islike, well, why did they put

(31:55):
this in?
Why did they put this in?
Well, you know, they, probablybecause they don't have plans to
expand on on it, like you know,for example, agon's second son,
or like they're probably nevergoing to touch upon it, because
I feel like this show isdestined probably to just end
after the dance ends, like afterthe civil war is over.
I think that's pretty much whenthe show ends.

(32:16):
So I mean that's and that'sgoing to be the end of it.
So you know, I'm of two mindsabout it.
We talk all the time about howgreat it is having the creators
on board um when you'redeveloping an adaptation, but at
the same time, like you alsogotta, as the creator, also
gotta understand that sometimesthings are gonna happen that you
might not necessarily be onboard with um, and I think

(32:36):
that's kind of where we're at.
Yep, agreed, yeah.
So speaking of that, let's, uh,like I said, in the spirit of
Agatha all along, we are goingto talk about some of our
favorite villain to hero turnsto be TBD on.
If this is going to in facthappen to Agatha Harkness, I
don't particularly foresee it,but it is a fun idea.

(32:56):
I don't think she's going toever walk the path of, like.
You know well, obviously we'regoing to talk about Loki, so I
don't think she's ever going towalk that path.
But you know well, obviouslywe're going to talk about Loki,
so I don't think she's evergoing to walk that path.
But you know, I think she willprobably end this Hopefully
Maybe not even hopefully, likemaybe she will end the show with
a more nuanced perspective onher powers.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
Or she won't, or she won't, or she won't, we don't
know for sure.
So, yeah, we're just going to uhspitball and throw a couple of
these back and forth and, andI'll let you start, yeah, and I
mean, what a phenomenal idea.
As well, too, I think this isreally cool in the sense that,
you know, let's think about this, about this kind of from a
logical perspective, likewriting's fun, it's so, it's so

(33:41):
cool and like this idea that youcan take this absolutely
villainous, horrible person andlike the best part about this in
the episode idea is it's thehumanity.
Like, at the end of the day,we're all you know humans are
humanoid, and especially whenyou're doing the storytelling,
so the idea, and you know, let'sjust start with you know we'll
start with something that's alittle bit more.

(34:02):
You know, simple, let's startwith Yondu.
Like Yondu was this, you knowravager, that this pirate, this
cosmic pirate that was, you knowdidn't care about anybody,
anybody or anything, only crime.
And then you know, assubsequent pieces of guardians
media would come out, like, youlearn that like Yondu actually

(34:23):
did care a little bit and that'sthe humanity piece.
Like he was doing this horrible, terrible, egregious things,
but he still was like a personat the end of the day and you
know yondu's big on honor andrespect and you know, once he
got those things, we see how hewas and like even beyond honor
and respect, it's the rightthing to do and we see how you
get there in guardians too.
And like how informed Peter wasfrom Yondu.

(34:45):
Like it's funny how much Peterdid for Yondu.
And it's like it's not likehe's your dad like your father.
He's like he wasn't, but he wasyour daddy, like he he was and
just the entire MCU.
If anybody's ever nervous aboutwhat James Gunn's going to do in
the DCU, just go think aboutthe things, think lines like
that, throwaways like that.
Like you know, it's partMichael Rooker's performance,

(35:08):
but it's just, it's the writingon top of that, it's just the
understanding of hey, it's, it'ssuch fulfillment what you
you're going to make a pointabout it, it's just that
redemption.
You know I can be better.
I mean, I'll spoil it now.
A train's on this list it's avery recent one, but a train's
like a perfect example of this,of like the horrible, terrible

(35:30):
things, like like a train saysit.
He's like the way that kidlooked at me is better than any
of the things that I've everdone for vought this whole time,
because that was real, likethat was I, I act.
That kid looked at me like Iwas a, like I was a superhero.
That line is not.
It's intentional, like it'ssimple but it's intentional,

(35:50):
like that's what you're supposedto be, but like.
He actually looked at me like Iwas a superhero.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah yeah, yondu's a great one too, and I mean when
you think about the fact that hegets excommunicated by the
Ravagers, for, because you know,stallone's character says it
it's so crazy that Stallone's ina Guardians movie.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Two.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Guardians movies, two Guardians movies, but he says
it like we don't Ravagers don'tdeal in kids, so like even you
know, even the Ravagers madeYondu out to be a villain, and
then you obviously later findout that he didn't end up doing
what he Hell.

(36:28):
Yeah, he's cool, I'm MaryPoppins, y'all.
And yeah, he establishes thatfun little relationship with
Groot and Rocket.
Him and Rocket have a reallygreat heart-to-heart when
they're locked up by the rogueRavagers.
Yeah, that's a great Gondu's, agreat first choice.
I think I'm going to come outswinging and I'm just going to

(36:53):
go right to Jamie Lannister.
Jamie Lannister is a litmus test, for how scummy can I make this
character and still have youimpacted by his redemption arc
when we meet Jamie Lannister inseason 1 of Game of Thrones, he
is this cocky.
You know people always make thejoke that he looks like the

(37:16):
prince from Shrek.
This cocky, clean cut, justscum.
You just don't like him.
He's just you hate his gut.
You want to wring his littleneck, and nothing that happens
in the first couple seasons ofGame of Thrones makes you like
him anymore.
He killed the bad king.

(37:36):
He killed Aerys Targaryen.
He stabbed him in the back, sohe's getting shit for that he
betrayed his oath as a member ofthe Kingsguard.
He sleeps with his sister,incest.
No good, not on.
No good, we don't like that.
He pushes Bran out the windowin the pilot of Game of Thrones,
the first episode Right thethings we do for love Pushes

(37:57):
Bran out the window.
So he cripples Bran.
What else does he do?
He attacks Ned Stark on thestrings of King's.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Landing.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
And you know he's just.
You could tell he's ready tokill Robert Baratheon, Just
wants his guts dead, sprawledthroughout the city.
He's this cocky, arrogant,doesn't care about anyone other
than his sister.
But even in the early seasonsof Game of Thrones there's this
little bit there to him he caresabout Tyrion first and foremost

(38:29):
.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Right, right, yep, that's such a good point.
It's such a small.
It's not a small thing, but itis a little bit of a subtle
thing.
What do you mean?
Small?
Come on man, you know what Imean.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
He cares about Tyrion .
So there's a tiny bit of atether there, like a little bit
right, a little bit of atether's, confronted by ned in
the throne room not confronted,but like they.
That gets the king's landing.
Jamie's in the throne room andned's there and he's just like

(39:00):
ah you, king slayer, you prick,I hate your guts.
And jamie's like dude, I savedeveryone by doing what I did.
Like your, your father andbrother were burned alive.
Like I avenged not avenge them,but like.
And ned's like is that, is thatlike?
Is that what you tell yourself?
Like that you did what you didfor my, for my family.
Like you, just you broke anoath.

(39:21):
Like that's what you did, right.
And jamie's like oh, fuck, like, so it's like the, it's the
like.
He wants to justify the slayingof the mad king so badly.
But but everywhere he turnsKingslayer, oathbreaker, and
then you know he's fighting thiswar against Robb Stark.
He gets captured by Robb Starkand again he's back to being a

(39:42):
little prick.
He's just twisting a knife inCatelyn Stark.
Whenever they talk, he's likeah, your husband got his head
chopped off and your son is alsogoing to be dead soon, like you
suck, basically.
And then eventually he strikesthis deal with caitlin stark to
to return to king's landing inexchange for sense and aria,
which is also a lie, becausearia is long gone from king's

(40:02):
landing at this point, but ofcourse caitlin doesn't know that
.
So he sent she sends jamie tobe escorted to king's landing by
brian of tarth, right, um.
And then they are confronted bythe Boltons, who are bannermen
of House Stark.
In the ruckus, jaime Lannisterloses his hand Right, and then
so begins the redemption ofJaime Lannister, because he has
now been, he's lost his identity, which is this pristine

(40:28):
swordsman.
He's unmatched, he's peerless,and now he has lost his dominant
hand and he can no longer fight.
He's no longer the knight hewas.
Um.
The boltons make him wear hissevered hand around his neck as
they bring him back to thedreadfort, um, and as, as he is
housed by the boltons, um, heand brian share this scene

(40:49):
together in the tub, where hejust lets the guard down
completely because he hears theword one too many times about
breaking his oath BecauseBrienne is this knight.
That's all about oath, and allabout you got to honor your word
and you broke that word whenyou stabbed Aerys Targaryen in
the back and Jaime just goes.

(41:10):
You have no, basically no ideathat decision.
Like my father had stormedKing's landing and the old the
bad, king's only orders were forme to bring my father's head to
him.
And then he turned to hispyromancer and said burn them
all.
Like he was going to level thecity with wildfire and burn them
all, burn them all.

(41:31):
He kept saying over and overagain.
And what would you have done?
Like you know oath, like oathkeeper, like what would you have
done in my position?
And that's when you finallystart to see it.
And then he, he ends uprescuing brienne from a bear, um
, and then, and it's kind of onafter that, like he, he starts,
he gets back to king's landing,he reunites with cersei things

(41:52):
really aren't the same betweenthem and you start to see this
turn in him.
Obviously he tries to strike adeal for Tyrion's life during
Tyrion's trial and he was goingto succeed in that.
Except Tyrion obviously feltlike, no matter what Jaime
promised, it was always going tobe Tywin's final say.

(42:13):
So tyrian obviously demands thetrial by combat, which kind of
screws jamie's plans of rescuingtyrian and then, um, I mean,
ultimately what this results inis he he forsakes cersei, um to
go fight with john and up north,um, after he he sees Daenerys

(42:34):
in the open field with with thedragons, and he's like we, none
of this matters, none of thismatters, like she's going to
kill us all.
But if I don't go North andhelp defend the final, help
defend the kingdom, like thekingdom, not just King's landing
, we all die anyway.
And cersei labels him basicallya traitor.
Unfortunately, season eight, hebackpedals, goes back to cersei

(42:58):
.
They die together.
Um, I ultimately don't thinkthat's what's going to happen in
the books.
Um, my long-standing theory onthe books is we're going to go
down this redemption path and hewill ultimately do like a
kingslayer redux and have toslay cersei out of the good of
the realm.
Except this time people willrecognize him as a hero, right?
But that's just me theorycrafting, right.

(43:20):
And then I mean the one.
The one moment that sticks outwith Jamie is is he's kind of
being poked by a grand maester,kyburn basically saying you know
, jamie Lannister, like how manymen have you killed?
Like 10, 20, countless.
And Jaime goes countless has anice ring to it.
And then Qyburn goes and howmany lives have you saved?

(43:41):
And he's expecting, like, gothim, got him, kingslayer, you
prick, you don't care, you don'tsave lives, you end them.
And Jaime goes 500,000.
He goes, goes without even abeat.
Jamie answers and he says 500,000 because it's the population
of king's landing.
And you're like, oh, like he.
He really just he did the rightthing and he knows he did the

(44:03):
right thing and he's beenchastised his entire life for
doing the right thing.
And then he goes through thistransformative experience and
comes out the other end morenoble.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Right, it's compelling.
Yep, it's great long-termwriting.
I love long-term writing.
I love when long-term writingpays off as well too.
I mean one of my favorite thingsto think about in terms of
character work, becauseobviously this is also what we
want to do.
It's not that simple, yep, andthat's the greatest characters

(44:34):
you'll ever find will be thatidea.
It's not that simple.
It's not that simple if Jaime'sjust this, you know,
incest-driven, likeperfect-looking, like son of the
heir, like the heir of itdoesn't work like that.
He's a person and people arecomplicated and that's the
beauty of this episode is likeshowing the complications of

(44:56):
these villains and how humanityoftentimes wins out.
The next one that we can pullfrom is kind of the counter to
the humanity pulls out, but it'salso like the adaptation of
seeing the good of people can do, and that's the T-800.
And I mean this is a little bitmore of like a meta thing for
the T-800 and the idea from whatyou get to Terminator 1 to

(45:17):
Terminator 2.
But the trailer spoiled itObviously in 91, the trailer
spoiled this.
But if you did not see thistrailer and you go into
Terminator 2 and you see theheel turn and it's not even a
heel turn, it's one of the bestreveals in movie history of get
down.
And you're like, wait a wait, asecond.
And it's it's the crafting ofthe, of the first act of the

(45:41):
movie too, because they stillpresent the t-800 as, like you
know, as the bad guy.
He's like he's mowing throughtown.
He gets back to, like he's backin the past.
He's just like you know he heseems menacing again.
You're like, oh, shoot, likehe's back.
He's back, he's come to killjohn again.
And, like you know, this isit's gonna happen again.
Like how's john, how's kid johngonna escape any of this?

(46:02):
And he's just like get down.
And you're like, wait a minute,no shot.
Like he, he's a good guy thistime.
Like that we built a betterterm.
Yeah, we built a betterterminator.
And I mean, obviously you havethe t-1000 like I forget.
I always forget his name.
Uh, peacemaker's daddy is whatwe'll call him.
Yeah, um, he's like he's sosoft-spoken and he goes to

(46:22):
people.
He's like you haven't seen john.
You haven't seen john connor,have you?

Speaker 2 (46:26):
you haven't seen him around like robert patrick,
robert patrick, yeah, it's justlike you know, you haven't seen,
you haven't seen john connoranywhere.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Right, like he's charismatic, he's like a, he's
like a, like a guy, just what.
Like, so it's a normal coplooking.
And then he's like he gets,they get to the interaction.
You're like all right, likeit's on, like we'll see what
happens.
Maybe they both want john.
And then he's like no, no, I'myou sent me here.
Like I'm here to, I'm here toprotect you.
Like terminator 2 I watched itabout maybe two, three weeks ago

(46:55):
.
That is one of the best actionmovies you will ever find on
this planet and that will never,ever change.
And a lot of it is characterwork.
That's why, like, the actionitself is I mean it's, it is
just, it's it absurd good and itwill stand up, it'll hold up.
The visual effects will standup and hold up, and that's crazy
for a movie from 91, but it'sLinda Hamilton's turn in that

(47:18):
movie.
But it's all how it's soinformed by the T-800, too, it's
all.
It's all kind of reactionarytowards him and it's like what I
love about it is like, again,it's not that simple.
If the t-800 comes back, he'sjust a good guy.
Like he doesn't know, john,will these?
John, whatever orders he gives,like the t-800 will follow.
Like also like linda hamilton'snot immediately the perfect

(47:42):
person either, she's not asgreat.
Like she's.
She's ready to kill miles dyson.
Like she's ready to murder himin cold not in cold blood, like
to save the human race, butwho's who knows.
Like the a big part of thatmovie is the predestination
versus free will, like you know.
And he begs for his life.
He says, like I I won't, likeI'll, like I promise, like I
won't do, and she's I can't,there's, no, I can't take this

(48:03):
risk.
Like I can't risk you.
Like I've seen it, like I'veseen the future, you will
incinerate this planet.
Like I've seen it, it like man,what a phenomenal movie.
But, like I said, that thatreveal of the T 800 is just it
is.
It is second to none.
Like it's such a, it's such agreat way.
And like I love how it's amovie separated too.
So, like you are, you're goinginto the movie like, oh, all

(48:27):
right, arnold's.
Like no, he's actually the herothis time.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Yeah, yeah, and it's and it's, and one of the best
ways you know it's it's becomethe trope since.
But Terminator 2 kind of kindof pigeon, like, if you're going
to, if you're going to takeyour villain from your first
movie and make him a hero, howdo you instantly do that?
Make a bigger villain, like amore and literally, in this case
, like the T-1000 is a moreadvanced Terminator.
So you know, if you want tomake Arnold kind of fight from

(48:52):
underneath, you have to create acharacter that is more powerful
, faster than he is, which isbrilliant, which is why you
introduced the T-1000, makeArnold, make the T-800 the
underdog.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
And it's kind of allegorical too, because it's
like the humanity versustechnology.
Like humans obviously cannothold up, like in a fistfight
against the Terminator you'd beimmediately murdered.
But and I like how they kind ofplay that for Arnold too, like
they they show art, like in thefirst like art, or like he cuts
his arm open to show miles, likelook like you did it, like you
actually did the thing that youwere trying to do, yeah, and

(49:26):
like how the T 1000 alwaysadapts back, like he can adapt
back to looking human wheneverhe needs to Like I feel like
that's like it shows the, youknow, the humanity of the
Terminator, which I guess isoxymoronic in a way.
But you know I love thedichotomy between the two of
them of like, how you know theT-800 is essentially reverting

(49:46):
back to such like how human, howhuman of a machine.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean like how human, how human of a
machine.
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a greatone.
Um, I think I'm gonna go to the, to the video game room now at
this point.
I'm gonna go to a little gamecalled red dead redemption 2, um
, and I'm gonna go with arthurmorgan, um, obviously, I have
with the caveat you know, reddead redemption 2 is a
decision-driven narrative, um,in the sense that there is a low

(50:11):
honor version of arthur and alow honor version of arthur and
a high honor version of arthur.
I have decided and I think thegaming community at large would
agree, that the high honorversion of arthur morgan is the
quote-unquote canonical version,um, because it just makes sense
.
It just makes sense for thestory.
Um, that he would start this.
Start red dead 2, as this out,he's part of an outlaw gang.
He's Arthur is is essentiallythe the ace in the hole of the

(50:35):
Vanillin gang.
Right, whenever you needsomething done, arthur's the one
that gets it done.
And most notably man man.
The writing on the game is sogood man it is.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
That is some of the best.
What Red Dead 2 does so well is.
It presents itself as this likecool game, you know what I mean
?
Like the first.
Like it presents itself as likelike I want to be a cowboy.
Like this is cool.
Like I'm a gunslinger from theold west.
And then you start to get intothat story.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
You're like, oh, life is, life is something yeah, and
I mean's and what I mean aboutthe writing is pretty early on
in the game you get sent on thisinnocuous mission where you
have to basically collect debtfrom a character named Thomas
Downes and you don't thinkanything of it.
He's sick, obviously the man issick, and it's presented in a

(51:29):
way that you're supposed to viewArthur as this heartless person
and you're not supposed to feelparticularly good about it.
You beat up this sick man tocollect the debt that Devin's
like.
In the grand scope of thingsit's not a lot of money and then
you go on this wild journeythat is Red Dead Redemption 2.
I mean, I'm not going to gobeat for beat what happens, but

(51:51):
essentially Arthur getstuberculosis.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
And you're like, as the player, you're like how?

Speaker 1 (51:58):
did that happen?

Speaker 2 (52:00):
And then you get thrown all the way back to that
innocuous debt-collectingmission.
And then, lo and behold, sickThomas Downs had TB and he
coughs blood on Arthur, and youknow, at a random, you know, and
he coughs blood on Arthur andyou know, at a random, you know
nonsense moment of the game andthen you're like wait a second.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
It's the.
Why it's so incredible is,especially in a game that's like
that your Grand Theft Auto,your Red Dead Redemption, your
super, super open world itimmediately puts a clock, like
there's a clock that immediatelygoes onto it and you're like he
has this amount of time tobecome a human being.
Like this is this is all he'sgot left.
I think that's such a it's suchan interesting way to kind of,

(52:36):
you know, unravel theintricacies that are arthur
morgan.
Again, this is going to be thewhole.
It's the theme of this.
It's the theme.
It's like it's not that simple.
Like it's not that simple thathe's just this like, like I said
, this old west gunslinger thatlike will kill for money and
like will rob anybody it does.
Like, and again, you getintroduced to the you know the
his wife.
Like you get introduced to likeyou know the family that he

(52:58):
could have had and you know itstarts to break down to the
point of like, while arthur's ahuge like, he's a person like he
was, a person that just likewhat's the line he gives?
Like I'm in a bad way, like Iwould like I've seen that, like
I've seen some stuff, man, andthen he ultimately realizing,
reconciling with, with his, hismortality, he, he, he.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
He decides to kind of try to make amends through john
marston, in the sense that likehe sees john as this young guy
who got swept in this and nowjohn's in prison, he's been
apparently abandoned by dutch.
So arthur goes, takes it uponhimself to retch to john.
He realizes, realizeseventually how far gone dutch

(53:42):
becomes.
Uh, micah gets in dutch's headabout the, the traitor.
Um, people die and arthuressentially says like hey, man,
man, I ain't got time in thisworld, but I can set John up for
the future it's always funny inthe three points we made,
there's always a bigger fishuntil somebody builds a bigger

(54:05):
bomb.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
For whatever bad that there is, there's evil, there's
actual evil that's afoot inthis situation.
It it's Dutch.
Like Dutch is like Dutch.
And Micah, yeah, yeah, theytruthfully do not care about
anybody.
Like they will do whatever theyneed to get ahead, even if
that's at the sacrifice of whoyou thought was your brother,
arthur.
No, it's not.
Like I will do anything I needto do, I I will kill when I need

(54:28):
to.
Like Arthur's is there'sthere's a hint of morality, and
Arthur's doings Like there's nomorality.
For, for you know, there'spersonal gain.
Like same thing for Cerseiagainst Jamie.
Like even to the end, cerseiwould like a power is power.
Like I will do what I, I willdo what I must like.
And then again, for for the T800, like there's bigger, badder

(54:49):
version of me out there, andlike I will do you know what I
need, but I will also learn.
Like you know, it's the visionline for for the T 800.
Like humans are odd, but likethere's there's grace in their
failings.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Like yeah, and it culminates in for Arthur, not
culminates, but one of the finalmissions you do is you go back
to the downs house, find out.
And Arthur finds out Thomasdowns down's past, um, many,
many moons ago.
And his wife is just like what?
Like, what are you here to?
Like, collect another debt,like, and arthur's like no,
ma'am, like I'm here to give youthis, give you this money, um,

(55:21):
and she's like why are you doingthis, you know, and he just
goes.
And he just goes because youknow, I felt like I, I need, I
should, and then he just goesI'm sorry, ma'am.
And then, like that line, it'sjust like it's three words, but
it, it, it hits so hard, it'slike cause you literally return,
you return to the literal seatof the crime, basically, and
Arthur just says I'm sorry,ma'am.

(55:42):
And then you all, obviouslyArthur's journey, obviously the
high honor version of events.
You're confronted by Micah asyou're trying to escape with

(56:04):
John with the money.
Arthur leaves John, the money.
Micah kills John on a well.
Arthur dies.
Micah doesn't directly kill him, but he does die.
John buries him on a hilltop.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
You get to build a house with John.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
You get to build a house with John.
The ultimate tragedy ofArthur's sacrifice for John is
ultimately what happens to Johnin Red Dead Redemption Getting
pulled back into the outlaw lifeon behest of the FBI to hunt
down Dutch, and then the FBIturns on John and kills him.
So, like you know,unfortunately the tragic part

(56:40):
for Arthur is that his sacrificegave John the opportunity to
raise a family, but ultimatelyJohn also lost his life to the
life that Arthur was trying toget him away from.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yeah, no, that's good , that's a good one.
Um, I want to talk about?
I want to talk about magnusmagnus, please.
I want to talk about magneto,because he is the definition out
of all these points, this isgoing to be the first one of.
You know, the idea of he wasnever bad, but it it's.
It's.
It's the line that he throws tohim in X-Men first class, which

(57:14):
was such a such a brilliantcomic book movie about.
You know, I've been at the mercyof men, following orders my
whole life, like, and then goingto X-Men 97, like, never again.
Like, never again.
I have seen the absolutehorrors that humanity would have
.
But at this point, you knowthis is.

(57:36):
I guess this is a little bitmore X-Men 97 encoded, but you
know, I've seen everything I'veseen.
I've seen because of my, myreligion.
I've seen people murdered.
I've seen, because of my race,people murdered.
I've seen people because of mymutation, seen because of my
race, people murdered.
I've seen people because of mymutation, people murdered just
to be murdered, like Magneto hadevery right to want to be as

(58:00):
radicalized as he was.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
How many more of your bones will pave the way to
Xavier's future?

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Episode two, we talked about it.
You're like, wait, is he right?
Episode one is like cool asheck you know.
And then you get to episode two.
We talked about it.
You're like, wait, is he right?
Episode one is like cool asheck you know.
And then you get to episode twoand you're like wait a wait,
wait a minute.
Yeah, wait a minute.
So I guess this is a little bitmore.
I not not the fact that it'slike more x-men 97 encoded, it's
more of like how good x-men 97is and thinking about how well

(58:32):
it understands Magneto as acharacter as a person, even the
Singer Trilogy understood it Tothe point where, when you threw
out the name Magneto, I'm like,eh, but shit.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
In Days of Future Past he makes the heroic
sacrifice, yeah he does.
Magneto's the one who, whocloses, closes the door behind
behind him.
Yep, to keep you know, to keepwolverine and company alive but
in the same movie as his youngerself.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Like, what a better villain to hero like he.
He's ready to.
He, he's ready to kill thex-men for what he needs like
this, is that that's what I'msaying.
Like he has done horrible,terrible things.
Like he is, he is the villain.
He's plotted against the x-men.
How many times he has hisbrotherhood of evil mutants like
this is that's magneto, butit's that.
It's that piece of what he'sseen.

(59:22):
It's the piece of you know he's.
He's seen true evil and magnetois not true evil.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
He will never be yeah , yeah, that's a, it's a, it's a
great one.
Um, where do I want to go nowwith this?
Um, you know what we we gottatalk about?
Damien dark, I don't care.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah, let's have some fun for a little bit.
Uh, we gotta talk about damiendark.
Just refer arrowverseretrospective.
That's gonna be like a four.
That's gonna be like amonth-long week by week thing.
Yeah, break it up into likefive parts yeah, um, damien dark
, um 20 character 80.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Neil mcdonough yeah, I guess you could.
You could say about thischaracter um arrow season four.
He shows up um and it's not.
It's not great.
We've litigated arrow seasonfour in the past.
He is kind of just genericmagic-y villain guy who wants to
destroy the world, but there'sa certain charisma and a certain

(01:00:16):
charm there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Did the charisma save him on this one?

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
And then they decide, like they do with all you know,
to quote Tyrion Lannister.
To quote Tyrion, they take thecripples, bastards and broken
things of the Arrowverse and putthem in Legends of Tomorrow.
Yeah, then they make them good.
Well, they wait a bit, becausein season two of Legends of

(01:00:40):
Tomorrow, they bring Damian Darkback as a member of the.
What were they, masters?

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
of Evil, the Legion of Doom, not to be confused with
the Legion of Boom.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Him, malcolm Merlin, reverse Flash, they lose Spoiler
alert and then he returns inseason four.
Was it season four?

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
I can't remember I thought it was later than that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Eventually he comes back and he becomes a good guy.
But why does he become a goodguy?
Because he loves his daughter.
Because he loves his daughter.
And again, how human his nora,his nora, his nora doll.
Yeah, how human of him.
Who's who?
Nora starts out more evil thandamien dark.
Yeah, she's.
She's in a I'm in a bad way.

(01:01:24):
And then she meets brian andralph in real life.
In real life and on the show.
Right, they are together, whichis phenomenal.
And, yeah, damien darkeventually lives for his
daughter.
Um, he sacrifices himself forhis daughter to the point where
he becomes barry allen's moralconscience.
I don't even in season six ofthe, in the crossover episode of

(01:01:47):
the final season of the flash.
I don't understand.
Let's not even go there.
You're damien dark.
Why are you giving me soundmoral advice right now?
This?

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
doesn't make any sense, but I'm doing it because
it's my job.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Shout out New McDonagh.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
He's just having fun.
Oh, he's having a blast.
We talk about again the refrainthat we talk about constantly
on this show when are involvedin things that may not be the
best.
Um, he understood theassignment.
Yeah, he understood theassignment, and then he realized
that he could get away with alot of neil mcdonough isms.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Yeah, and it's it's pretty great, it is pretty great
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
He like once he got into that legend sphere and they
were just like are you damiendark anymore or you just neil
mcdonough in a trench coat?
And he's like both, both.
And they're like all right,yeah.
So like once he got outside ofarrow season four, like yeah, it
got the character got way moretolerable yeah, he just didn't
fit in.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
He didn't fit arrow, but he fit legends, like a like,
a like a glove.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Yeah, it was tremendous.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
So damian dark um I might have to re-watch legends,
because legends is the mostunhinged, incredible, weird show
I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
But also Hitcher.
Where it hurts, sometimes itdoes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
It does.
I'm telling you you see what II'm telling you when we decide
when the Arrowverse needs a full, because, to talk about it as a
whole, whenever we do thisfive-hour-long episode where we
actually bring all the stars on,you don't understand that
Arrowverse.
It was special.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
I mean, I don't want to assign you one like for your
next, but do you want to justtalk, Captain Cold, now.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Yeah, yeah, we're already here.
I mean, who better than CaptainCold to talk about a villain to
hero?
And I mean again, true villainto hero, true villain to hero
him, true villain, and I mean hewas just uh, but again his
whole thing too.
It's kind of like the magnetopoint of like my past defined me
, like my past is the reasonthat I'm here, like I am
villainous because of the thingsthat I went through, like he

(01:03:44):
was abused as a kid, like thetrauma that he went through and
like I say what you will, likethe flash and the flash and
legends did a good job abouttalking about that for captain
cold.
Like, talking about like,especially once you get to
season two for captain cold orseason two or season three
season, yeah, two, I think it istwo.
Yeah, the the mid-season finaleon christmas but yeah, I think

(01:04:06):
they're christmas, yeah merrychristmas, you're out of
marshmallows.
I'm gonna murder you.
But yeah, I mean they do such agood job and I mean a lot of
this goes to wetworth miller too.
Yes, it's just like again youstart arrows or you start flash
season one.
You're like this is just acackling tv show, corny villain.
And then you're like, wait, a,that's my favorite part about

(01:04:27):
the Arrowverse.
Like you get there and you'relike, oh, this is stupid fun.
And then you're like wait asecond, wait a minute.
Am I intrigued?
Am I invested in Captain Cold?
Captain Cold, heatwave,heatwave, arc.
Question mark In the prisonbreak guys For prison break guys
for prison break.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Genius bit of casting , by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Even Rip Hunter.
You start with Rip Hunter andyou're like he's this cool
British guy with a laser gun.
And then you get deeper intothe season and you're like, ah,
this is kind of sad oh no, oh,no, bro.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Yeah, I mean, obviously, they bring again
Cripples, bastards and BrokenThings.
They bring Captain Cold on toLegends, where the hero arc hits
fourth year, and he becomesalong with Katie Lotz and Sarah
Lance.
They're essentially the twoprotagonists.
They wanted to make Hawkman andHawkgirl a thing and it didn't
happen, Unfortunately forHawkman and Hawkgirl.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
No, no, no, unfortunately, for Hawkman
Hawkgirl was like it is what itis.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
We realized.
The Legends team realizedpretty early on that Sarah and
Snart were the main characters.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Almost to the detriment, because they tried to
make them a thing.
No good, no, no good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
No good, oh dear, oh dear, we almost went down a
dangerous path.
Yeah, um, but we didn't.
Um, but uh, yeah, and, like Isaid, legend season one, kind of
kickstart, like kick snarts,heroism turn in overdrive.
And obviously there's thiswhole through line of legend
season one of, like you guys aredestined, you know, you're on,

(01:06:04):
you're on fate's time,essentially, and it culminates
with captain cold's iconic,iconic line when he sacrifices
himself for sacrifices himself,he sacrifices himself.
Who would have thought, who'dhave thought captain cold would
have done that?
um, he would have like, found away out anything yeah, he grabs,
he's in the fusion core and hewhat's it with fusion cores?

(01:06:24):
And he waves like start youidiot, like get out of there.
I mean you know heat wave,obviously, villainy hero, um but
and then snart looks there areno strings on me, and then he
gets incinerated and you're likeyou feel, you felt it.
Legends has a way of doing thatand it ultimately culminates in
in you know, when the legendsget back to the modern day and

(01:06:47):
and barry barry the flash, thehero literally asks them like
where's snart?
like what happened and then likeuh, I think it's the adam kind
of gives him a look and barry'slike what happened?
And ralph says like he died, hedied a hero.
And bar goes a legend.
And I'm like, oh, that's thatwriting They'd be talking about

(01:07:08):
Um.
So it starts a great, greatchoice, um.
And then I he's come back in inin variations yeah, I hate fire
.
Um, where did I want to go nextwith one?
Um, fast and furious, don't doit.
I'm next with one um, fast andfurious, don't do it, I'm doing

(01:07:30):
it.
I'm talking about deckard shaw.
Damn it, fast and furious.
A franchise littered with withvillain to hero turns, um, none.
Probably the most popular oneis deckard shaw.
I flirted with hobbs, but hobbsisn't really a villain.
No, he's an antagonist, right,but he's not a villain, right,
he's not a bad guy, he's justthe Rock.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Yeah, I guess my point about another.
We're going to do another likemovie movie.
Did I just call Fast andFurious a movie movie?
They were movie movies before.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
But yeah, decker Shaw is.
We don't quite know how he gotonto the heroism side.
We don't really know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
No, he just showed up and he just was protecting Vin
Diesel's baby.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
So it's kind of, you know it's flimsy, but all things
in the Fast and Furiousuniverse are flimsy.
And again, this is kind of likethe Damien Darkpoint.
It's carried by the charisma ofJason Statham, where you're
just like I'm bored, like youwere the transporter.

(01:08:32):
That's right.
Right, maybe you are a herolike, maybe, like I instantly
buy jason statham as a cockneybritish good guy.
Right, like you know you, you,you have villainous features,
but you're a hero at heart,right, which is essentially
deckard shaw in a nutshell.
Yeah, that's all I wanted tosay about deckard sh.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
That's it.
He's Jason Seatham.
Yeah, oi.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Oi, hey man, he's British.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Oh, Billy Butcher reverse arc.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
He was beating that guy up in Fast X in a duffel bag
.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah, he was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
Or a heavy bag.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
That was so cranky.
Remember when he reconciledwith Han.
Yeah with Han, yeah when hekilled.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Han.
Yeah, but he didn't, becauseHan was a hologram the whole
time.
I hate everything.
Kurt Russell was behind it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
That Fast and Furious franchise is nuts.
Remember when Alan Richen wasin it?
Just make him kiss Dude, listen, listen, hollywood, hollywood,
you're on the phone with agenius.
Give Alan Richen and JasonMomoa the relationship and then
kill Alan Richen and really haveJason Momoa go off the absolute

(01:09:33):
deep end.
That's storytelling.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Oh man, good stuff, deckard Shaw.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
Deckard Shaw.
Let's talk about Bucky.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Yeah, let's talk about Bucky James.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Buchanan Barnes I can spell, I can spell, I can spell
.
One day we're gonna do aretrospective, specifically on
tommy lee jones, how you putthat gun down now.
I did not kill my wife but uh,yeah, talk about bookie, I mean
the, it's the, it's the beautyand the horror of buffy that's

(01:10:04):
the best way I can say it.
I mean, he has probably one ofthe best culminations of
overcoming.
You know what I mean when thatscene in Falcon and the Winter
Soldier where he's in Wakandaand he breaks his, that's true.
I think I texted you after that.
I said wait a second, why isthis episode making me feel

(01:10:26):
something right now?
And I mean you want to talkabout completely villainous,
like an assassin, like this wasan assassin with no mind or no
control.
Like imagine living in yourbody, like that.
It's kind in a way, it's kind ofthe same thought process as
jamie.
Like jamie, it's like you know,I was just a guy following some
orders and I made a decisionlike obviously Bucky didn't have
decision making to do,necessarily, but you know, I

(01:10:48):
think what Captain America 1does a great job of setting up,
like this is going to be.
There's so much tragedy in thisof like look at this cool,
charismatic James Bucky Barnes,like physically fit, like I'm
like a cool guy, you know, andthen like to get all of that
stripped away with you withoutwill and you know, say what you
will.
Falcon and the Winter Soldiershows that in a really, really

(01:11:08):
great way of how much evenpossibly better than Captain
America Civil War of this isfrightening.
This is frightening.
This man was just stripped ofevery single last thing that he
ever had and to go through howhe needed to get it back, that
is a true villain to hero.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, needed to get it back like that
is a true villain to hero.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean.
And it all culminates obviouslyin that scene, the falcon, the
winter soldier, when you see himget his programming stripped
away and how much it means tohim.
Yep, you know, and you knowmuch like kind of.
You know much like.
Jamie lannister carries thesins of his past.
Bucky also carries the sins ofhis past for a long time.
You know it's.

(01:11:45):
It's one of the core cruxescivil war, like excuse me, thank
you, um, you know he has toreconcile with the fact that he
killed Tony's parents, moreimportantly his mom, right, um.
But Tony even asked him in themidst of that fight, like do you
even remember her?

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
And B that fight like do you even remember her?
And bucky says I remember themall.
Yep, and you're like.
And then they play on that sowell in falcon and the winter
soldier, where you know, youthink it's like bucky's just
having lunch with this randomold guy and yeah, like, yeah, oh
, like he he murdered and hedoesn't know how to deal with it
too.
And the point that I don't thinkpeople think about enough is
like bucky and steve were likethey weren't kids but they were
young when they, when they werein in world war ii, like they
bucky was a young man when hedied, like that, and that has

(01:12:32):
how much growing he got to do,like he didn't get to do more
growing after that.
Like he was just he was, youknow, a cold-blooded, like,
no-minded assassin after that,like obviously, like there were
points where he could turn itoff but but then he would get
just put on ice when he wouldturn it off.
So to see what he went throughin Falcon and the Winter Soldier
, of like, and like I said, it'sthe horror of it too.

(01:12:53):
Like he not only for himself,but like overtly like he that's
like that scene where he goes toyou know he murders, whatever
his name is his son, like that'sscary.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
Like dang, whatever his name is son, like that's
scary like dang, he really hadno mind and no remorse after
this too, and like how powerfulhe is on top of that too.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Um, I'm gonna talk.
I'm gonna talk a little animehere.
I'm gonna talk about the princeof all saiyans.
We're gonna talk about vegeta.
Um, I mean, dragon ball isanother one that's littered with
this trope.
Um piccolo starts out this way,um tn starts out this way, but
vegeta obviously is, is the mostpopular.

(01:13:28):
I mean, he starts out on thebeginning of dragon ball z.
He is a, a world conqueror.
He's coming to earth to conquerearth.
Conquer earth, um with, withnapa, um, he is obviously goku's
chief rival to reluctant ally,to eventually sacrifices himself
for Earth when he becomes MajinVegeta, and he, you know, he

(01:13:49):
has a brief, brief, bucky-esquemind control going on and then
ultimately snaps out of it,sacrifices himself and becomes a
hero, a true hero.
He was a bit of a legend,wasn't he?
Driven, you know, mostly bypersonal gain and personal
desire, but eventually stepsoutside himself, has a family,

(01:14:09):
he marries Bulma, has trunks.
That also kind of changes hisperspective on things and it's a
great classic villain to heroarc for Vegeta Because, again,
obviously it's animated.
It's anime.
So the scale and the gravity ofwhat he's doing in the
beginning of Dragon Ball Z isnot as visceral, I say, like

(01:14:31):
Jamie Lannister pushing Brainout the window.
But I mean he destroys citiesand he kills a lot of people.
I know in the Dragon Balluniverse humans are kind of like
fodder.
But he does some pretty heinousstuff in the middle of Dragon
Ball Z.
But he does some pretty heinousstuff in the media of Dragon
Ball Z.
You know he's constantly pokingand prodding, constantly being
one-upped, constantly angry.

(01:14:51):
But it becomes an endearing.
He becomes angry Uncle Vegetaessentially by the time he gets
into Dragon Ball Super, to thepoint where he ends up in Dragon
Ball Super where he befriendsCabba Saiyan of an alternate
universe's Earth and heultimately sacrifices himself
again in the Tournament of Powerso that his universe can live

(01:15:12):
on.
That is not a hero.
Dang it, I don't know what is.
That's true, that's nice.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
Shout out Vegeta, you're always getting crapped on
online he is Vegeta, vegeta.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Who would win in a fight?
Stephen A Goku or Vegetar?

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
I'm going to have to go with Vegetar.
I'm going to have to go withGoku, because I don't know who
Vegetar is.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
You didn't think I knew Dragon Ball.
You don't you?

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
don't You're lying, buddy.
Do you want to talk about oneof the most classic movie
villains?
And we're going to switch overto the sports realms of movies.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
we're going to talk about apollo creed.
I love this one.
When you mentioned this to me,I was like that's such a good
one, one of the first ones andI'm like this is we're relating
towards antagonists, but I meanrocky is one of the classics.
I mean it's a, it's aconsummate classic he's as
villainous as you can get for aboxing movie.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
Until you get to Drago, and that's my point.

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
And again, there's always a bigger fish, a bigger
Russian fish Right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
Apollo's so interesting because it's such a
great person to put againstRocky in the first one too.
It's like the perfect counter,like this golden gloves, like
you know.
Again, charismatic like thisman is, he is him.
Like he has everything andeverything that he would ever
want.
And like what's this littleitalian guy from philadelphia

(01:16:39):
ever gonna think he's ever gonnado to me?
Like I am, I am the greatestlike, and it's it's your willful
ignorance of the underdog, Ithink is a perfect.
There's a blindness that comesalong with Apollo that he
couldn't be beat.

Speaker 2 (01:16:50):
Well, he gives Rocky the opportunity because he
thought that'd be fun.
Give him this.
Give this kid from Philly ashot at the champ.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
This is going to be great.
He's like obviously I'm goingto beat him, obviously I don't
have a problem, but promotional,this is great.
And then and again, likethinking about like a corporate
greed sense of it, like that wasapollo.
Apollo was so caught up in allof those things, and like after
he gets out of the ring withrocky, it's like you know, I'm a
different man now, like I.
I think what apollo reallygained was respect, like it was

(01:17:21):
a piece of his life that hedidn't have until he needed to
have it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Like he got respect and he got perspective on top of
that too and he won, but alsofelt like he needed to get his
lick back, exactly, exactly he'slike I actually have to, like I
might have won, but like I haveto, like, prove myself now as
like a fighter, right, that Ican beat this man right, and
then he doesn't, he loses toright, and then that ultimately
culminates in rocky 3, when youknow, rocky gets his brains beat

(01:17:47):
in by clever lang right and hego, where does he go to get, you
know, get his mojo back rightto apollo, and I mean again.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Another piece of this is you know, rest in peace to
carl weathers as well and it'sthe cell of like you know,
there's more to me too.
Like I'm not I wasn't alwayslike I'm I did this because of
you, know, I have to fight.
Like I too, like I'm not, Iwasn't always like I'm.
I did this because of you know,I have to fight Like I'm a
fighter, like I need to be this,like antagonistic person until
I don't have.
Like now I can step back, likenow I can teach you, you know, I

(01:18:17):
got to teach you like how to bepowerful again, how to be I'm
strong, like I'm strong, stronglike an ox, like I have to teach
you my ways a little bit too.
Like I love how, for him, hishero is more of like the wise
old sage he turns into, which isfunny, but then he does what
most wise old stages do theyunfortunately have to sacrifice
themselves for the younger onetoo.
So to get to Rocky four and tosee like it was all it's like,

(01:18:40):
it was like the Colson thing forthe Avengers, like Apollo
needed to die for Rocky to win,like that's kind of how it went
to go.
So Again, this is more of likea meta, like movie-thinking way
of it, but Apollo, going fromlike one of the most classic
antagonists in movie history tolike one of the most beloved
characters in movie history,really said something.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's a.
That's when you said that I waslike wait.
When you said that I was likewait.
That's actually genius.
Alright, it's time to get someheavy hitters.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
Loki you want to talk about the Scarlet Witch, or you
want to talk about Loki.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
Loki, I think, because Wanda kind of does a bit
of this.
She starts.
I wouldn't say she's a villainin Age of Ultron, she's like an
antagonist maybe she's tough,maybe she shouldn't even belong
on this list because it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
Again, this is like the meta way of thinking of like
she was presented as the, asthe villain, like in the comics
too.
Like her and quicksilver werejust villains against the
avengers until they weren't likeyeah, it's, it's the same
concept for her.
Essentially, she's not the badguy, she's just like.
She's like loki is a truetransformation, literally and
figuratively I can't say enoughgood things about that loki show

(01:19:55):
.
Like you, you just you can't.
And I will.
I I've always admitted it, Iwill always admit it to the end
of the day.
I was not not.
When they announced that Lokishow my first I said why, what
is?
What?
Is this Like?
This makes no, this makes no.
And this was post-Endgame.
I was like this makes no sense.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Yeah, you're gonna take Loki from Avengers 2012 and
just give him a show, not eventhat.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
I'm just why, like there's other characters that
like need, play and need, andlike new characters that we need
to see, but like loki's gettinghis own show and again that
just shows to the level offilmmaking that they were
working with and the level oftalent they were working with.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
But we didn't know we didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
But I mean, again, loki was a villain, but again,
it's not that simple.
Like, imagine your brother is,you know, touted to be the most
important man in the nine realmsand you have to live with that
every single day of your life,like you know, and then you find
out that that's not even yourbrother.
On top of that too, and thisisn't even your family, and,

(01:20:57):
like my blood is literallylittered with, like these
creatures that are, like builtupon being evil and antagonistic
, like but what was his tether?
It was his mother.
Like it's just, it's such asimple thing and it's like it's
one of the only good things thatThor 2 does of like it's just
that little piece where Loki,like they don't even have

(01:21:17):
dialogue in the scene.
I think I think one of theguards just comes whispers like
you know Frigga is dead and likelike Loki just lose like one
little flare up of anger.
And that was it, because youknow he's one of those, like
posh, like I have to have keepup appearances, but he's like he
let it go because he truthfullyloved his mother and I think he
truthfully loved all of them.
He just maybe not Odin, but Ithink he truthfully loved Thor

(01:21:39):
too.
He just didn't want to admit ituntil he did the sun will rise
on us again, brother.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
And then you get to Loki.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
And then tell me, man , what Loki the end of episode
one of Loki, does so simply.
It's like I always say it.
It's like.
It's so incredible, it'sradicalization.
It's like and you think aboutit too.
I remember I thought about it.
I was like, wow, this could belike a psychological course,
like how would you react if yousaw your entire life play out in

(01:22:12):
seconds?
Like you just saw everythingthat happened in your entire
life and no glorious purpose,like in a shot.
And like your glorious purposeis that you were murdered, and
that's it.
It by the person that said Iwill give you power to take your
throne.
Like that person just murderedyou, left you on the ground on a
ship and that was it.

(01:22:32):
I would probably think somethings of my life.
I would, I would, I wouldprobably want to rework some
things, and it's just, it's thatsimple thing to show again how
human he like, how you know howhuman he is like, how much of a
person he is.
He's's like I am, I'm stillmyself, like, I'm still like a
jerk, I'm still like I'm still.
I'm still Loki.
But Maybe this isn't, maybethis is more than me.

(01:22:54):
And again, it's the DoctorStrange, it's one of the.
It's one of the best lines fromthe MCU I've ever heard.
Dr Strange goes through allthese trials and you know he's
still thinking about how to savethings.
And she said it's not about you, nothing of this is about you.
Like this is about protectionof the multiverse and we need
your help.
So, like I said for Loki, it'sas simple as like it's one

(01:23:18):
that's, the personal gain versusthis is bigger than you could
ever imagine.
Like this is more than youcould ever imagine.
And I still can't believe.
Season two took the swing.
And like you want to talk aboutlanding endings for something
yeah, what a what an ending thatloki season two had, oh for
sure, and making him you knowgod, like I'm talking the god

(01:23:40):
god of stories, loki.
And like you want to talk aboutyour sacrifice point.
Like he literally sacrificedhimself to sit at the end of
time to reignite all themultiverses.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
And just the genius of Tom Hiddleston was, you know,
the mastermind behind reusingthe For you, for All of Us.
Because when he delivers it inThor 1, he doesn't truly believe
it when he says you know, I didit, Father, I did it for you,
for all of us.
And Odin kind of sees throughit Like no, you didn't.

(01:24:11):
No, you didn't, you did thisfor yourself.
Like you didn't do this, youdidn't do any of this for us.
Like what are you kidding me?
But then when he brings it backin Loki season two, when he
says for you, for all of us,like he means it you know, I'm
doing this for, so that not justall of us in this room, like

(01:24:32):
all of us in the entiremultiverse, I'm doing this for
all of us.
And and you buy it, you buy itbecause of the transformation
that he's since undergone andwhat an incredible chance.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):
And I mean you know he's informed by love, his love
for sylvie, and he's informed byyou know the past love for his
mother and his love for mobius,for mobius, and it's just like
he, he grew like it showed.
Like I said, like it's such agenius.
Part of that show is like showme everything from my life.
Like, oh god, like I just Ijust saw everything that I've

(01:25:02):
ever needed to see and like it'ssuch I love the abrupt way it
ends.
It's just like end, like like.
It's like like it was like a,like a short film, like just
finn, like this is this.
Is it so what an incrediblecharacter journey that he went
on, how it informs all the othercharacters, like the character
work for loki inside of theconfines of the show itself, but
the mcu as a whole, it's.

(01:25:23):
It's nothing short incredible.
And I think Tom Hiddleston helpsit for Thor 2.
Tom Hiddleston gets it throughthe Thor 2's writing.
It helps because if it's nothim it might fail and fall and
they might not trust him again.
Then you get to Ragnarok andyou're like again the layers
start to peel and peel.
And then you get to the Lokishow and you're like, well,
thinking of the MCU, stillyou're thinking of Thor 2 and
you're like, how good could thisget?

(01:25:45):
It's the best that it couldhave ever got.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
Yeah, I mean yeah Again, having Hiddleston being
able to do what he can do, itjust takes it to another level
and it just makes for one of themost compelling character arcs
in Marvel, like in the MCU yeah,I mean, we even talked about it
.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
we were like, when, you know, we, we made our claim
for you know, we made our claimfor, you know, main character,
like our first thought was Loki.
Like we were like at this point, especially at, like, what
better way would you do?
For you know, at the time, kangdynasty, like you know, all
this multiversal stuff washappening like, what a, what an

(01:26:26):
incredible arc to get back to.
Like you find out that loki,like kang's plot is to kill loki
because he knows that he's theone that's holding all these
timelines together.
And, like you know, theavengers have to, like through
dr strange, like go protect loki.
And you know, thor and lokifinally meet again and he said,
I, I told you the sun would riseon like, would rise on us again
.
That's that cinema they talkabout that we're never gonna get

(01:26:49):
um.

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):
You got, you got another one, you got one more.
We'll do one more one morepiece.

Speaker 1 (01:26:54):
Oh, don't do this to me.
Just one more piece, steveharrington.

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):
No, that was a fun one let's do, let's talk about
steve, yeah it doesn't have itdoesn't have to be our one more,
but we could.
We could about Steve a littlebit.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
And again, this is a little bit more of a meta way of
thinking of it, but you knowStranger Things in-universe too.
Like Steve was a jerk, I hatedhim yeah.
I hated him Season one hatedhim.
He did bad things.
Like he did bad things, hebroke Nancy's heart.
He broke Nancy's wait.

(01:27:28):
Wait a minute, once you getfurther for steve's art.
Nancy broke steve's heart andthen he becomes the best guy he
becomes the best guy, becausethe best part about steve's
whole thing of being, becauseagain, in the meta sense he, he
was like the your 80s cool, likegreat hair, great hair.
And then like on a two-prongedfront.
Then you get to What's-His-Name, you get to Dacre Montgomery in

(01:27:49):
Season 2, and you're just like,oh no, there was a bigger fish.
Oh, in T-1000.
There was a T-1000.
It's the T-1000 of 80s jerks,80s teen jerks.
And Steve showed his humanitythrough that.
He was the T-800.
He was the outdated model.
And then again, get down, heprotected the kids.

(01:28:10):
He's their mom now I don't knowhow any of this.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
He's got a great friendship with Robin.
He's back.
Will they?
Will they with Nancy?

Speaker 1 (01:28:18):
Right, but he's so accepting of Robin on top of
that too, and all the kids.
He'll give his life, happilyfor any of them, he's the best
guy, but he wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
Yeah, I can't.
I still remember how much Ihated him in season one.
He's just, you're scum.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
Yeah, he's scummy.
He's just scummy.
80's gonna break your heartbefore you find the guy that has
the heart of gold, the guy thathas the heart of gold which
they play on with him, andJonathan, and then you realize
he should have just stayed withSteve.
Jonathan might just be weirdyeah, he might be like a weird
guy, but Steve's protective hecan provide.

(01:28:58):
Dude, he works at the what's itcalled the video store.
No, no, oh yeah, he got his jobat the video store.
Heck, yeah, nice Steve.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
Steve the video store .
No, no, oh yeah, he got a jobat the video store.
Heck, yeah, nice steve.
Steve, he's the, he's the besthe's.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
Yeah, he's so cool, I fucking hated his guts, but now
you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
Now I only want the best for steve yeah, yeah, yeah,
I thought man, I thought he wasgonna die last season yeah, I
thought he was.

Speaker 1 (01:29:23):
I thought he was a goner a gonerer.

Speaker 2 (01:29:26):
But then Eddie stepped in and said hold my beer
, I'm the goner.
Actually this season let's talkabout Sheef Palpatine.
Just kidding, we're actuallynot going to talk about Sheef
Palpatine.

Speaker 1 (01:29:38):
Should I go with mine first, because this is, I mean,
anakin.
There's no other way than toend on Anakin.
Yeah, I'm going to go with DocOck.
Yes, as a whole.
Yes, and I mean your Doc Ock.
You know, from comics you cango for maybe not the Spider-Man
games, he's a bad guy but he hasthe inverse arc.

(01:30:00):
He goes from a good guy to avillain.
But you know comic Doc Ock likeand you know comic doc ock like
and you know movie doc ock,specifically spider-man 2 we can
kind of focus on more of like.
You know he wasn't a bad guy,he just, you know, obviously his
brain was being infected on topof that too.
But you know noble sacrifice,sometimes it's simple, like that

(01:30:20):
noble sacrifice to understandthis is bigger than me.
And like again, another piecewe don't talk about enough is
what have I done?
Like I like seeing the horrorof what you created, like that's
a big piece for bucky.
Like I saw the horror of whatI've done never again.
Like I can no more.
He built the sun.
Yeah, he did build the sun.
Nice, I love how I think Ithink cinema sense talks about

(01:30:43):
he's like absolutely insanescientific advancement being
usurped by another insanescientific advancement is insane
.
Man makes a sentient roboticsystem that attaches to the
brain cells to make sure thatthey work and he's like this is
nothing.
I made the sun and you're likehuh, huh, huh.

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
I will not die a monster.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
Character actor, Alfred Molina.
He's the best.
He is the best.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
What did you do with my machine?
I thought he really became ahero.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
Yeah, he did Twice.
He did that.
He pulled the same arc twice.
That's the genius of Alfred.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Molina yeah, shout out to him, it's a great yeah.
I of Alfred Molina yeah, shoutout to him, it's a great yeah.
I mean, yeah, it's.
I think we also tweaked.
I think we also one of thethings, one of the many things
maybe not many things, but oneof the things we did get right
about Spider-Man the Way Homewas we were like Doc Ock's going
to turn into a good guy, right,mm-hmm, first he got thrown out

(01:31:42):
of a building by Electro, thenhe got thrown off of the Statue
of Liberty by Green Goblin.
It's a good thing he has thosearms.
Peter, my boy, how are youdoing?
Trying to do better?

Speaker 1 (01:31:58):
Not enough of that I have my gripes with.
Look, I'm a second half trutherof no Way Home.
The second half of no Way Homegoes absolutely wildly insane.
The first half it feelsartificial, does not feel like
an actual movie.
The hell.

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
There I was Sitting in the grid.

Speaker 1 (01:32:18):
Sitting in the grid recharging and then oh shit.
Jamie Foxx was cooking in thatmovie, because he was just Jamie
Foxx, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):
There was nothing at all.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
Max Dillon and Electro about him Absolutely not
.
He switched universes in adeadpool.
Understanding the universe knewthat he looked like jamie foxx,
so like he took jamie foxx'sconsciousness into max dylan's,
like knowledge.
That's how I think about it,because how did he get a
hairline?
He got a fresh cut hairline youduck uck what was handmaid

(01:33:01):
doing in that movie?
You know thomas hayden church.
They said can you record like12 lines?

Speaker 2 (01:33:05):
he's like sure can you, can you literally and
figuratively phone this in.

Speaker 1 (01:33:11):
I love the headcanon that he wanted to be in the
movie but it was going to be tooexpensive so they were like one
of them can't be in this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:33:19):
Spider-Man and the Way Home.

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
They cut Reese Fonz Cowards, Not my king.

Speaker 2 (01:33:23):
Reese.

Speaker 1 (01:33:24):
Fonz Not the best character actor Rishi Fonz, Otto
Hightower.
Arc TBD.
Yeah, yeah, it might be coming.
It might be on the way.
My grandson is a fool.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
Alright, let's talk about Vader.

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
This is the archetype of the.
Yeah, this is it, this is theone, this is the one.
Can Space Hitler be redeemed?
Come on man, why'd you have tosay it like that?

Speaker 2 (01:33:47):
Now I don't want to answer.

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
Hear me out no, palpatine was Space Hitler.
True, what are you talkingabout?

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
All right, let's talk about Space Hitler.
No, no, no, no, no.
If you play the arc in reverse,no, no.
If you play Palpatine's arc inreverse, he goes from Space
Hitler to well-intentionedgalactic senator.

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
He turns into Tim Walls.

Speaker 2 (01:34:16):
Senator Sheev, should we talk about Vader and Kylo
Ren at the same?

Speaker 1 (01:34:20):
time.
Yeah, Kylo Ren's my man.
I have so much, I have so muchheart for Kylo Ren, and I wish
things would have unraveleddifferently.

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
I mean, the problem with Kylo Ren's villain-to-hero
arc is the Last Jedi.
Well, he goes fromvillain-to-hero in about 30
minutes, right.

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):
With no explanation.
Oh and Rise of Skywalker.
There's explanation, but it'slike he sees his dad.
I can't believe Harrison Fordcame back for this Me either.
I can't believe harrison fordcame back for me either.
I can't believe he did it.
He should have said no.
No, he wanted to have 300million dollars to make indiana
jones, so he was saying yes toeverything I was stunned when he
showed back up.

Speaker 2 (01:34:54):
I was like wait a minute, no, not like this.
That was more shocking thanwhen the rock came back to fast
and furious no, it wasn't, no,it wasn't, no, it wasn't no, it
wasn't, but yeah, I mean.
I mean Kylo Ren, it could havebeen special, which is honestly
like.
When I saw Force Awakens forthe first time, I was sure I was
absolutely, 100%, thousandpositive.

(01:35:16):
I'm like, oh, they're going todo a reverse Anakin with Kylo
Ren and they're going to starthim on the dark side and by the
end of the thing he's going tobe on the light side, and they
just didn't do it until the last20 minutes of Rise of Skywalker
and then he became cool.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
Yeah, he was so cool.
He's like he should have madeone of them flicks.

Speaker 2 (01:35:39):
Not my fan favorite character is the Knights of Ren.
I'm bringing that bit back fromepisode 5 of the podcast what's
his name?

Speaker 1 (01:35:48):
what's his name from the Acolyte, everybody's thirst
trap favorite?
What's his name in theAlchimere?
He's probably one of theknights of Ren all your
favorites are there.

Speaker 2 (01:36:01):
I'm bringing this bit back axe guy hammer guy, sword
guy another axe guy?

Speaker 1 (01:36:07):
was there a guy with a gun?
I can't remember.
The gun is so out of place.
It seems much funnier, but itdoesn't work.
There's a guy with a mace.
I think it was a mace hawkgirl's like I want.

Speaker 2 (01:36:16):
I want copyright infringement yeah, one time one
day we're gonna talk aboutjustice league unlimited one day
we're gonna talk about theknights of ren, knights of ren
retrospective.
I'll give you retrospective,the knights of ren.
They have such deep, tragicbackstories.
The one guy why do they have,why do they have weird medieval

(01:36:38):
weapons in star wars?

Speaker 1 (01:36:39):
I don't understand.
I don't know who the knights ofren?
They didn't even have.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):
Like none of them even had.
Like it wasn't even like the.
You know like the praetorianguards had.
Like they None of them even had, like it wasn't even like the.
You know like the PraetorianGuards had.
Like they had stabs, but likethey had, like they were like
cool, yeah, they had likeelectric bits at the end.
That's because Rian Johnson'scool the Knights of Ren just had
regular weapons.

Speaker 1 (01:37:07):
I don't know.
I don't know Because Vader gaveall the he gave all the
lightsabers to the to theInquisitors.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
Kylo Ren saw the Inquisitors and said never again
, never again, never again,while I get my underlings
lightsabers.
You get an axe.

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
You get a sword you also get an axe.
I'm telling you.
One of them had a gun, but itonly works.
Weapon Can't even be fired.
It's a bayonet.

Speaker 2 (01:37:25):
It's a space bayonet.
Alright, we gotta talk aboutDarth Vader.
It's enough about the Knightsof Ren.
I'm gonna time code that bit.

Speaker 1 (01:37:34):
Knights of Ren talk.
Knights of Ren Wait Villains toheroes.
Who knows Pending art.

Speaker 2 (01:37:38):
No, he killed them all, didn't he?

Speaker 1 (01:37:41):
Did he kill all the Knights of Ren?
I think they are all.
Oh yeah, yeah, he had to murderall of them because he was cool
again.
He just got a nice long sleeve.
It was kind of tough when hepulled the lightsaber from he
David Blaine-ed that, but thenhe just, and then it turned into
like a, and then it turned intolike an Edgar Wright movie.

Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
He had like a little.
He's like with the lightsaber.
That was cool.
You're never going to guesswhat's behind my back.
The lights have rendered like.
Surely it's not a lightsaber,right?

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
This is a Buster Keaton skit.
Now it was a lightsaber You'reunarmed Am.

Speaker 2 (01:38:14):
I Am.
I Did you check behind your earfor this lightsaber.
Cut his head off.
That would have been so muchbetter.
What if he kept making itdisappear and found it in
different spots?

Speaker 1 (01:38:33):
Ray's, just like putting it in different spots.

Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
Somebody that's never watched Star Wars, that
listened to that bit is probablylike what I may not have my
lightsaber now, but did youcheck behind your cape?
Cape, I don't even have a cape,do you?
He's just making differentthings appear and disappear.
Where's my axe?

Speaker 1 (01:38:53):
Said axe guy of the.

Speaker 2 (01:38:54):
Knights of Ren.

Speaker 1 (01:38:56):
Check your shoe, check your stomach.
Oh no, he murdered me.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, got your nose, got your nose, whoa.
No, it's a lightsaber in my, inmy face.
Oh no, he does have my nose.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
Kylo Ren street magician.

Speaker 1 (01:39:14):
That's it.
That's the Kylo Ren portion.
I don't even want to commit toeven talking about his arc
anymore.
I just want to talk about Vadernow.
It wasn't good.

Speaker 2 (01:39:20):
I didn't it unearned.
You can't just become a goodguy.

Speaker 1 (01:39:23):
I told you that I mean, the big thing for Kylo Ren
is like they should have keptthe number one, should have kept
him alive.
Yeah, you would have kept himalive and you did that whole
thing.
Yeah, oh boy, it would havebeen great.
You could have had him comeback for these new movies and
been like alright, I'm going totrain some Jedi.
Everybody in the galaxy is likewait, a minute, wait hold on a

(01:39:44):
second.

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
Aren't you the guy who trained the knights of red?

Speaker 1 (01:39:46):
no, they don't care about that.
They care about the planetmurdering.
Those guys were what?
That's what everybody hates theknights of red.
They're just like.
I can't believe you trained theknights of red.
He's like you don't rememberlike the five planets he blew up
.
Remember star killer?
Yeah, star killer was an issuevillain hero arc for the death
star.

Speaker 2 (01:40:04):
They built a bigger death they built a bigger death.
Talk about, talk about anakinall right, we're gonna talk
about vader um, that was crazythey did build a bigger death
star.
They did, we did the death starand then they built a bigger
palpatine or a smaller palpatine.
He was cutting ass, I don'tknow.
They did build a biggerpalpatine.
It was Supreme Leader Snoke.

(01:40:25):
He was bigger Palpatine.

Speaker 1 (01:40:27):
How did his lightning control all of those ships I
have?
I have?
You don't understand how manyquestions I have.

Speaker 2 (01:40:45):
Where do you get all the steel for all the starter
droids?

Speaker 1 (01:40:48):
Look, I'm very forgiving when it comes to lore,
because lore is stupid, lore isdumb.
But how is he alive, palpatine?

Speaker 2 (01:41:05):
I don't know why is ray's granddaughter fortnight
explained it, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:41:11):
if I'm not mistaken, I want to like curl up into a
ball fortnight explained who arethe?

Speaker 2 (01:41:18):
knights of ren.
What do you mean?
We?

Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
already established this, but like no, no, no, let
me rephrase.
Why are Knights of Ren?

Speaker 2 (01:41:26):
It'd be kind of funny if all the guys like those guys
like were all known for theirweapons but they were all
actually skilled with eachother's weapons.
Like, axe Guy was actually goodwith the big hammer, but they
gave him the axe instead.
Classic Kylo Ren diversion.

Speaker 1 (01:41:46):
Dude.
What did his character turninto in the last 30 minutes of
that movie?
He turned into han solo.
But like he was fully committedin the last, in the last jedi,
he did.
He did turn into han solo.
He got cool.
He remembered he was on soloson.
Yeah, he said.
He said enough of being leia'sson and luke's, luke's nephew,
I'm, I'm han solo's kid.
Wait a minute, I'm just cool.
Now wait a a minute.

(01:42:06):
Look at my hair, I rock.
And then he got murdered.
Yeah, what was that?

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
And then they kissed, but then he died anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:42:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:42:15):
But they're a diet in the Force.
I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:42:19):
Don't do it, don't try it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:21):
Speaking of that, we gotta talk about Anakin.
All right, speaking of that, wegotta talk about anakin.

Speaker 1 (01:42:28):
Um go ahead because this, yeah, go ahead, go ahead,
talk about anakin.
I mean, what do you think?
And, like I said, all timemarks.
And I mean, you know, from ameta perspective, from like the
outside, looking in perspective,you know, starting four, five,
six, what an absolute swing forin the 70s doing sci-fi, and
said, yeah, I'm gonna start withthe fourth, fifth and six and
sixth and you're going to haveto.
He said, you know you guysmight not like it, but your kids

(01:42:50):
are going to love it, like theMarty McFly starting four, five,
six, are you?

Speaker 2 (01:42:55):
nuts and making Darth Vader literally the scariest,
most evil thing.

Speaker 1 (01:43:00):
You don't even know if he's a person under there and
I mean mean this is the best.
Darth vader is the villain.
He it's not he in movie talkand in like pop culture talk.
Darth vader is the one like heis the.
He is the end, all be all.
He is the.
Like you look any ranking listlike best villains, most

(01:43:20):
important, it is darth vaderwill be one on every single one
of those lists yeah and I'msorry if you didn't put him when
you're lying to yourself.
It's darth vader.
He in cinema history, it'sdarth vader.
He is the villain.
There is no bigger villain,there's no more.
Thanos was creeping a littlebit that I that will give brolin
some credit.
Thanos was creeping, but I meanguess what they were comparing

(01:43:40):
him to.
He's like michael jordan.
Like what are you gettingcompared to?
You're getting compared toDarth Vader.
Yeah, so to give him an arc inthe 70s and 80s is something,
because you know movies didn'tovertly have that, especially in
like there was a lot.
The 70s and 80s were very clear, cut and dry for like your big
blockb and they were alsopredicated on the heroes.

(01:44:04):
Right, and exactly like the 80saction hero.
Like there's no subtlety inlike trying to think of Indiana
Jones.
Like there's no Nazis Right,right, exactly Like there's no
subtlety to this.
Like you're a Nazi, drago,right, you're just the punchy
bad guy, you're the robotic Idon't know if you're a human or
not the t-800, t-800, like youwere.

(01:44:24):
Just you showed up and you'relike a slasher, like it's yeah I
mean, you're movie slashers,yeah right, like that's who you
are.
Darth vader, like you are,you're the big old bad guy that
comes around with the redlightsaber, as opposed to
everybody's blue and greenlightsaber.
Like that's who you are, untiltill empire until empire.
Until george lucas said what ifI made one of the greatest
movies of all time?

(01:44:46):
I am your father huh, have youseen like kids watching that
with their parents for the firsttime?
Like videos of that I haven'tjust like I've seen.
I saw some videos of like peoplewatching star wars for the
first time and like it's acompilation it's cool as hell
yeah, and they're just like,excuse me, and like because you
can't run and this is why he'sthe great hell.

(01:45:07):
Yeah, and they're just likeexcuse me, and like because you
can't run away and this is whyhe's the biggest and greatest
villain of all time.
You can't run away from whoDarth Vader is Like.
He is the villain.
So for him to be like no, no,no, no, no, he killed Ben.

Speaker 2 (01:45:19):
Or did he Ben killed himself?
If you strike me down, I shallonly become all power.

Speaker 1 (01:45:25):
How does that work?
Hacks how does that?

Speaker 2 (01:45:27):
work yeah he's hacking.
How does that work?
He's hacking the system.
How does that work?
But yeah, I mean that singularmoment.
Like you're conditioned througha new hope, throughout a new
hope and most of Empire, thatDarth Vader killed Luke's father
, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:45:42):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:45:45):
They were cooking.

Speaker 1 (01:45:49):
Ben told me everything he told me, you
killed my father.
No, I am your father.
What you said?
What now?

Speaker 2 (01:45:53):
brother, and then you get to return of the jedi, and
that's what return of the jedigoes for it's.
It's luke's story, but returnof the jedi also applies to
vader right and it's like youknow, again as much bad as
you've done.

Speaker 1 (01:46:11):
My father's still in there.
The jedi that I've heard wasdid all these great things.
You're still in there.
You're in there somewhere.
Like I need, I need, I need you.
Like what?
Did you say an arrow roy?
I need you to stop.
We talked about arrow verse alot today.
We did um, but yeah, I mean, ona serious note, like I need you

(01:46:33):
to.
I need you to find who you wereagain and like it came through.
Like anakin skywalker is stillanakin skywalker, like the fly
boy that you know did all thisgood throughout, as much as ever
.
Like you know, tough and ruggedas he ever was, like he still
was a good person.
You know an did all this goodthroughout that, as ever, like
you know, tough and rugged as heever was, like he still was a
good person you know, anakinSkywalker is dead.
Anakin is gone, only I remainman, he can act, he's got aura,

(01:47:01):
he's got presence.
Hayden, yeah, remember inepisode what was it?
Episode four, where he was juststanding there Menacingly, but
I didn't know if it was a visionor not, but he was just
standing there.
I was like, oh shoot.

Speaker 2 (01:47:11):
You were warned.
You were warned what defeatwould bring.
I will tolerate your failure.

Speaker 1 (01:47:17):
no longer Remember when he showed up in Fallen
Order and you were like what the?

Speaker 2 (01:47:23):
But going back to Return of the Jedi, that's where
the movie culminates, thetrilogy culminates.
Palpatine realizes, finallyrealizes, that he can't turn
Luke, so he's like, alright,fine, I'm just gonna fry you.

Speaker 1 (01:47:37):
With my space lightning.
Watch this.
I'm gonna use this to create afull army later.

Speaker 2 (01:47:43):
And Vader finally, finally, snaps Don't touch my
son.
They added that in there-release Don't touch my son,
jerk, don't touch my son, don'tdo it, that's my son.

Speaker 1 (01:47:55):
Bleeding alone.
It was established in the lastmovie.
And then he dies Honorably,Honorably, nobly, but that leads
Anakin to be able to go intothe what?

Speaker 2 (01:48:04):
do you call it Space heaven?

Speaker 1 (01:48:06):
Force Heaven, force Heaven.
Now I can be a Force Ghost.

Speaker 2 (01:48:09):
And I can be the original actor, and then I can
be Hayden Christensen in there-release.
In the re-release version, Ican become Hayden Christensen.
How does that work?
How did he become HaydenChristensen again?
Technology, wait, I want to beyoung Anakin.
When I was good Question mark,he did some weird things.

Speaker 1 (01:48:27):
He did some bad things.
Yeah, he did some questionablethings.
I saw the Clone Wars.

Speaker 2 (01:48:35):
Yeah, I want you to be the great Jedi hero you were.

Speaker 1 (01:48:36):
I'm pretty sure that was Obi-Wan.
You're looking for Obi-Wan,aren't you?
The Tusken Raiders Is this?

Speaker 2 (01:48:40):
Tusken Raiders Remember when he slaughtered
that village of women andchildren?

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
He didn't mean it, not just the women, not just the
men, but the women and thechildren.
You know what Padme said weshould have a baby, right now.

Speaker 2 (01:48:57):
If only Luke could be there.
You were kind of a bratactually, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:02):
Shouldn't I get Obi-Wan?
I feel like this fits Obi-Wan alittle bit more.
Was he my dad?
They both had blonde hair.
Look, padme and Anakin didn'thave blonde hair.

Speaker 2 (01:49:16):
These questions.

Speaker 1 (01:49:17):
These Come on, boy.
Matt Merk these questions.

Speaker 2 (01:49:20):
These questions need to be answered these questions.
What you cooking.
Obi-wan, what were you cooking?
Padme presumably Anakin's, thefather isn't, he Is he, is he?

Speaker 1 (01:49:32):
Or did you just try to get the trail off of you,
buddy?

Speaker 2 (01:49:34):
Remember when she died because of sadness, that
robot was beside itself.

Speaker 1 (01:49:44):
I was just thinking about the robot.
I was just thinking the robotwas beside itself.
I was just thinking about therobot.
I was just thinking the robotwas like I don't know what's
happening and I'm a robot, Ihave all the knowledge in the
galaxy.
I don't understand why she'sdying.
It makes no sense.
The robot said in my thousandyears of being being a robot,

(01:50:09):
being a birth robot, I don'tknow why she's dying.
She's never been more healthythan right now.
And she just died.
I don't get it.
Did her heart stop?
No, she just died.
I don't know what to tell you.
Oh god, that would have been somuch funnier if that robot was

(01:50:29):
Alan Tudyk.
That would have been infinitelymore funny yeah, that robot was
shocked.

Speaker 2 (01:50:37):
The babies are perfectly healthy, but we're
losing her.

Speaker 1 (01:50:39):
Obi-Wan's like huh, you didn't mean, you're losing
her.
What does that even mean?
Blood pressure spiking?
No, get back losing her.
What does that even mean?
Blood pressure spiking?
No, get back in there.
Get back in there.
Save my wife?
What, nothing, nothing.
Save Padme, just get back inthere.

Speaker 2 (01:50:52):
Get back in there and fix it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:54):
Oh God, we were supposed to talk about the.
Now we're talking about howegregious that was.
Why is Padme dead Vader killedher?
Well, that's what Palpatinesaid obi-wan killed her because
he didn't want anybody to knowyou did it and because you
didn't want me to know.

Speaker 2 (01:51:13):
It would seem, in your anger you killed her, um.
But yeah, vader, vader's arc,um.
I mean, yeah, luke, you know,vader sacrifices himself and
he's laying there and luke islike come back, come back with
us.
And vader's like nah, man, nah,for reasons beyond our

(01:51:36):
understanding, I'm dying said no, I don't think I will I got
zapped one too many times, kid.
I'm sorry that Force Lightningis a bitch.

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):
Until I can Force Ignite an entire fleet.
There's no logic.
I don't understand.
Also, what happened to Rey'slightning powers?
She's good, that's a bad thing.
I don't have an answer for you.
You know what's the funny thing?
I've been doing this for thelast two months, for whatever
reason.
I've been running through badmovies, really bad fandom movies

(01:52:13):
, and just finding them overtlyfun.
Yeah, so I ran through FourStick.
I watched Daredevil.
I've just been watchingwhatever I could get my hands on
so I might watch the Rise ofSkywalker, just to be like.
This is so funny and dumb.
Yahoo, shut up, shut up, forge,shut up, forge.

(01:52:34):
Rip, beast, you would haveloved Forge Anakin.
Yeah, that was supposed to besuch a serious ending and we
talked about how we were goingto end with that and then we
were like why is Padme even dead?
Because is it's only one?

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
the father, because part of the the anakin deal is
is the prequel stuff too.
Yeah, it's funny even how howthe comics really dug into how
incredible it was for him tooand, like, really humanized him
at the end of the day yeah, andI mean, you know, say what you
want about the obi-wan show, butlike that, that ending scene

(01:53:09):
with them is is perfectlyemblematic of of the fall and
the eventual re-rise because,like obi-wan's trying to appeal,
it's anakin.
That scene is anakin convincinghimself that anakin doesn't
exist.
If that makes sense, right,like that's what it was.
It's not anakin convincingobi-Wan that Anakin doesn't
exist.
It's Anakin have to convincehimself that Anakin doesn't

(01:53:30):
exist, right Like staringObi-Wan down and hearing Obi-Wan
going I'm sorry, anakin for allof it and Anakin going,
anakin's not in there, pal haveyou.

Speaker 1 (01:53:41):
did you read that as like the last apology From who?
From?

Speaker 2 (01:53:45):
Anakin.

Speaker 1 (01:53:48):
Yeah, read that as like the last apology.
From who?
From anakin.
Yeah, I don't know what, Idon't know if I was like in the
minority for it, but I alwaysread that as like the last, like
closure, like obviously it wasclosure, but like it was like an
.

Speaker 2 (01:53:56):
Like I said, it's like an apology basically saying
like you didn't, you didn't dothis, like I'm, so like I did, I
did this and like also likeit's.

Speaker 1 (01:54:05):
You know, obviously the mask was broken, but I'm
sorry that I got to this, but Ican't go back now.

Speaker 2 (01:54:12):
Yeah, like I'm, yeah, like.
Yeah, like you know, I'vebecome this monster.
So like I have to, in a weirdway, like I have to see it
through, like there's no goingback now, like even if I wanted
to come back and maybe a part ofme does want to come back like
I've done so many heinous thingsthat like and that's the
important piece of like there'sa, there's a little, and that's

(01:54:33):
finally what luke finally pullsin in the return of the jedi.

Speaker 1 (01:54:36):
Like there's still a piece of me in here, like
anakin's still in here, I justI'm gone.
And like padme's gone on top ofthat, like Padme was probably
the only thing that could havesaved me, she's gone.
And like what other way to?
You know, you're my brother andlike I, I want you to bring me
back.
But I'm so embarrassed, I'm sodisgusted with like I, you can't

(01:54:59):
.
Like I.
Just I failed you and I can'tsay those words as Vader, but I
can, you know, I can kind ofsubliminally give it to you as
Anakin for a second, while youcan see it, the last time you're
ever going to see my face.
And then Luke, and then whatbetter way to bring you back
than the sun?

Speaker 2 (01:55:24):
Yeah, and that's.
I think that's ultimately likethe point that Luke pulls on is
like, yeah, like you've, you'vedone all these terrible things,
but like you can still, you canstill come back.
Like you can still come back,you can still come back to the
light, even after all thesethings.
That's the point.
That's the point, I think, thatultimately, I think the old
guard of the Jedi, the reasonthey fall, is because of that.
Their world is so black andwhite and I think that's why
their hubris obviously leads totheir downfall and the return of
the Sith.
But Luke's point is and Luke'spoint, honestly, even the sequel

(01:55:46):
trilogy is along those linesthis isn't a black and white
thing.
There is no inherent good andevil.
We make good choices, we makebad choices, but even when we
make the horrible choices, wecan still make that one good
choice that brings us back tothe side of the light Two or
three moments wade.
This episode was sponsored bycolossus.

(01:56:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great,that's a great point, though,
like that's ultimately whatluke's point is about.
Vader like you, you, you stillhave a chance, like even while
he's like staring palpatine downand vader is still kind of
staying out of it, like luke islike you still have a chance to
make this right, even like aspalpatine's killing luke.

(01:56:37):
Like you still have a chance tomake this right and then he
eventually does and itultimately makes all the
difference, like it enables himto, I guess, become more in tune
with the Force and return toObi-Wan and Anakin's side and be
.
You know.
I guess you don't truly know ifhe's been forgiven.
I guess, in reality, it doesn'tmatter If he's been forgiven by

(01:57:00):
the powers that be.
That doesn't really matter.
What matters is Luke forgavehim and that's all that really
matters.
It doesn't really matter ifmatters is luke forgave him,
yeah, and that's all that reallymatters.
Like it doesn't really matterif anyone else forgave him like
luke and, to be honest, likeluke never probably felt like he
had to forgive him for anything.
He just, you know, wanted tofree his father from the
darkness, yeah, and heultimately does.

(01:57:20):
And I think that's why vader's.
You know, obviously you don'tever see him be a hero after
becoming Darth Vader.
He just has this one heroic act, but because of all the evil he
had done, that one heroic actmeans a lot, right?
I think is kind of the gist.
Like it's not.

(01:57:41):
You know, I kind of made thejoke earlier like how do you
forgive?
Like basically Space Hitler,but like it's more complex than
that, it's not.
You know, I kind of made thejoke earlier like how do you
forgive?
Like basically space Hitler,but like it's more complex than
that, it's not that simple.
Like it's not about it's notthat simple, it's not.
It's not about forgiving him,it's about him making this act.
You know he made a choice.

Speaker 1 (01:57:59):
Yeah.
At the end, like yeah, I mean,one of the biggest parts of this
episode is it's not about thethings, it's not about who you
are, it's about the things thatyou do.
Yeah, and you know as manyhorrible, terrible acts that
you've done, like Vader's.
One good act was killing theEmperor who was about to, you
know, fully incinerate thisuniverse.

(01:58:21):
Like you did it, like you savedthe galaxy like you did it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:28):
Like you, you saved the galaxy.
And, and I mean, and thebeautiful part about an
invader's case is, like you know, you'll like nobody will ever
know yeah, and that sacrificelike he didn't, he, and that's
the part that's like that.
I think that's kind of the pointI'm making about the
forgiveness pieces, like hedidn't do it to be forgiven and
he didn't do it to be absolved.
You know what I mean?
Because he, he, he knew, youknow, if he had, if he did this,

(01:58:48):
a, he would probably die and b,no one would know that it was
darth vader who saved, yeah,saved, the galaxy even if it was
darth vader, how would thepublic perception?

Speaker 1 (01:58:58):
they probably wouldn't believe that.

Speaker 2 (01:58:59):
No absolutely not they wouldn't you know, and so
really the only people that knoware, you know, our main players
.
But it's not like they went,went around broadcasting it to
the galaxy that darth vadersaved the empire, or saved the
galaxy, rather like, so I thinkthat's part of it too.
Like again, like, going back tolike the forgiveness piece.
He wasn't doing it forforgiveness or absolution, he

(01:59:19):
was doing it to save his son atthe end of the day, like, and
doing it because he, where theprequel trilogy informs that
decision is, he's done it.
He did it out of like the thedecades long you know,
gaslighting that the emperor didto him like the emperor, made
him just as much a monster as hemade himself, and that's a lot

(01:59:40):
of the point I mean it's thebucky point.

Speaker 1 (01:59:42):
Like bucky didn't do that to himself, like, but he
has to live with the things thathe's done yeah, I mean he's.

Speaker 2 (01:59:48):
You know, as soon as vader gets out of that not even
out of the chair, yet he's stillstrapped to it when the emperor
tells him you killed padme outof your anger, like he's already
twisting anakin, you know soyeah you know, anakin, you know,
like you said, it's, it's thestandard, it's the standard
bearer.
So, um, I guess that's it.

(02:00:09):
That's it Got to end on.
Got to end on Vader.
Got to end on the, on the man,the man himself, Alex Rodriguez,
nope, nope, axe guy from theKnights of Red.
No, until he was slain down bythat murderous Kylo Ren.
That murderous Ben Solo struckhim down.

(02:00:30):
But yeah, that's going to do itfor us this week.
You can follow us on Twitter atProject INF underscore pod.
You can follow us on Facebook.
You can follow us on YouTube atthe Project Infinite podcast.
You can follow us on InstagramAt the Project Infinite pod.

Speaker 1 (02:00:44):
Next week like I said at the top of the episode, we
are to talk about one division.
I am so, so, so freakingexcited me too.

Speaker 2 (02:00:48):
I'm really some of you got, you don't?

Speaker 1 (02:00:49):
understand.
You don't understand that onedivision era the grip the world
was shut down.

Speaker 2 (02:00:55):
Yeah, I mean we'll talk about all that stuff,
because all that stuff doesinform what happened with that
show and like how it had likethat kind of like old school tv,
like after each episode peoplejumped online to theorize yeah,
what is happening on this show?

Speaker 1 (02:01:11):
the aerospace engineer, I must say I was.
You drank the kool-aid I I.
I made the kool-aid.
You made and mixed the kool-aid.
I was the kool-Aid, I was theKool-Aid man, I was in.
Man, that's wild, and that'swhy Loki was such a great
follow-up, because then we werelike, surely nothing will happen

(02:01:33):
in Loki.
And then Kang showed up and Iwas like, oh shoot.

Speaker 2 (02:01:36):
Yeah, so we're going to talk about WandaVision and
it'll be a good fun time.
I'm excited.
I honestly have not watchedthat show since it aired Me
neither, so I'm excited to goback to it.

Speaker 1 (02:01:50):
No, I did, I watched, I did one watch through, but it
was more of like a let me putthis on to sleep.

Speaker 2 (02:01:54):
Yeah, no, I haven't.
I haven't watched it since itended, I just remembered.

Speaker 1 (02:02:07):
I was a great.

Speaker 2 (02:02:07):
Her final scarlet witch costume was perfect.

Speaker 1 (02:02:08):
Yeah, and then shackman on top of that, who's
doing fantastic four?
And we're going to talk abouthow informed that 50s and 60s
inspired that he was going forin wandavision, like how much of
the right person he was forfantastic four.
I'm excited, man, I was likehis.
We talk about it with, liketimothy chalamet doing the king
before doing dune.
Like him doing this wasimportant for him to get to
Fantastic Four.
There's so many factors that gointo this.

(02:02:29):
And then we get to talk aboutElizabeth Olsen and how
important she is.

Speaker 2 (02:02:33):
And Paul Bettany, the greatest troll who's ever
trolled.
There's an actor I worked withthat I've wanted to work with my
whole career.

Speaker 1 (02:02:43):
Al Pacino as Bethesda .
Yo, we were all in, people wereunhinged, we were all in People
were unhinged.

Speaker 2 (02:02:52):
That show was unhinged, not the show, but the
it's because we just 2019,.

Speaker 1 (02:02:57):
We saw Endgame and everybody was in it and then
2020, and then even KevinFeige's like you got, this is
there's no punches pulled.
This is like an extension ofthe movies.
We're like, oh shoot, they'regoing to do it.
And then they did it.
Then it was just the ship oftheses.

Speaker 2 (02:03:13):
I request elaboration .

Speaker 1 (02:03:15):
The memes that were born out of that ship.

Speaker 2 (02:03:17):
Obi-Wan said the robot after he said Padme was
dying.

Speaker 1 (02:03:22):
It was like the Jennifer Lawrence meme.
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
How did?

Speaker 2 (02:03:28):
she die.
I request elaboration.
Nope, nope, you can't just walkout like that robot.
You gotta tell me what's goingon here.
Man, what a wacky ending tothat movie, um white vision
don't call him white vision.
Vashon Agatha, all along WhiteVision, white Vision, don't call
him White.

Speaker 1 (02:03:47):
Vision, vashon Agatha all along.
Evan Peters was in that show.
He was Tug.
This is going to be a fun one.

Speaker 2 (02:03:56):
I'm excited.
That's it.
What an era From me.

Speaker 1 (02:04:00):
Careful man, this is hard.
You were going to call meApollo Creed.

Speaker 2 (02:04:05):
I was going to say, I was gonna say the captain cole
to the podcast there are nostrings on me.

Speaker 1 (02:04:10):
God, he's good.

Speaker 2 (02:04:11):
Thank you what worth miller?
Everybody that was crazy.
He popped in for that twosecond cameo and then he left.
You're out of marshmallows.

Speaker 1 (02:04:23):
I checked.

Speaker 2 (02:04:27):
Who's he doing?

Speaker 1 (02:04:28):
in that show?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:04:30):
He was on fire, which is ironic because he was
Captain Cold.

Speaker 1 (02:04:33):
Come on, man Get us out.
We gotta go, man we do gotta go.

Speaker 2 (02:04:36):
All right, guys, we'll see you next week for
WandaVision.
I am super excited for that.
Until then, goodbye.

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133 - Villains Turned Heroes: Why The Villain to Hero Trope is One of Media's Most Effective Arcs

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}133 - Villains Turned Heroes: Why The Villain to Hero Trope is One of Media's Most Effective Arcs