138 - Unraveling The MARVEL & Mystery of "Agatha All Along" - The Project Infinite Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's the Infinite Podcast.
Go tell your friends.
It's the Infinite Podcast, myGod, it never ends.
It's the Infinite Podcast withRobin Korn for Q.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of
the Project Infinite Podcast,the podcast covering the
infinite and ever-expandingmultiverse of fandom For movies,
comics, TV shows, video games.
We've got you covered.
I'm Rob.
I'm here, as always, with Court, Court.
We were supposed to talk aboutVenom this week.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
It was Agatha all along.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, we got tricked.
We got tricked into doingsomething else, but by tricked I
mean neither of us have seenVenom yet.
Ag something else, but bytricked I mean, neither of us
have seen venom yet.
So, um, luckily, all along wasphenomenal.
Yes, I was gonna say that,luckily.
Um, we had another thing totalk about this week, uh, that
just wrapped up on halloween eveand that was agatha.
All along, um, we talked alittle bit about the first two

(00:59):
episodes and kind of like whatwe were thinking, you know,
going into the rest of theseason and happy to report that
this show was absolutelyfabulous.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
It was fun, it was dialed.
Jack Schaefer is a true star.
I mean, her pen on some paperis that's a potent mix, gives me
the goosebumps.
Yeah, in all seriousness, sheis.
She's quite incredible.
And I mean, once you you know,we talked about it you leave the
show with Catherine Hahn andthat's your first thought is
like I feel good, I gotCatherine Hahn with me, I got a

(01:31):
charismatic lead, we can operateoff of this.
But this show does two thingsvery well.
One's a bit spoiler, spoiler,spoiler really.
And one is I can say right nowit's it's Jack Schafer being,
you know, as incredible of awriter as she is.
But the other one is, you know,agatha's a villain.
She is.
She's not a good person.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
She never was and she never will be and she never has
been yeah, and obviously we'regonna dive into it, but I love
you know that Jack Schaefer dida lot of smart tv things with
this show, um, one of which wasshe used a lot of the marvelisms
against, yes, her audience, um,in the sense that, like, a lot

(02:11):
of people were probablyexpecting agatha to go the loki
route by the end of the show, oryou know, the classic kind of
like anti-hero, you know,villain turned anti-hero route,
um, and she, she used, sheweaponized that, yes, she did um
against us with the writing ofthe show, because for every, you
know, every two to threemoments where it seemed like, oh
, agatha might be learningsomething or she might be taking

(02:33):
a turn here, um, there's doublethat amount of moments that
make you go, oh no, she actuallysucks though, um, um to like a
grander scheme.
I mean, she does, and you knowthat's.
I'm struggling to even explainit because it's so well written
to the sense that, like, she's acomplicated character she is
very complicated, you know shedoes do things, obviously out of

(02:57):
incredibly selfish andantagonistic reasons, but she
also has this kind ofperspective and you learn that.
You know, obviously we're goingto talk about the finale, which
is different than pretty muchevery other finale Marvel's done
.
But I kind of I told you thatshe kind of adopted the the
Thrones-ism of you know, doingthe big action, action-y bit in

(03:17):
the Pet Ultimate episode andsaving the finale for a lot of
exposition and a lot of what'sto come.
And that's what always made theearlier not among other reasons
, but that's what has alwaysmade the earlier seasons of Game
of Thrones so successful isthey use that finale as a
springboard into the future andthat's what the finale of Agatha

(03:38):
did.
So yeah, I mean we're not goingto spend too much time up top
talking about it because it'sour main topic, but we do have
some other news, starting withCourt Cinema Corner.
First and foremost, tom Cruiseis back.
Fan favorite, channel favorite.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Tom Cruise Channel favorite.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
The man who saved cinema?
Yeah, he did, and he is.
What is he doing Court?

Speaker 1 (03:59):
What is he doing?
He's doing a Days of Thundersequel.
He can't help himself.
Wait is is he doing?
He's doing a days of thundersequel.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
He can't help himself .

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Wait is this gonna be tom cruise's thing?
I'm starting to think so isthat he's gonna sequelize every
single film he's been in.
It seems that way you knowwhat's the, you know what he
should do.
He should get joe kaczynski todirect every single one, it
doesn't matter what genre it is.
Um, this could actually bereally fun.
I'm shocked.
I'm not shocked that he'mshocked.
I'm not shocked.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
That he's doing this.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
I'm not shocked one bit.
It's funny.
It's one of those hindsight is20-20 things.
Using that logic, I'm notshocked one bit that he's doing
something like this.
I mean, I guess I can't beshocked that he does anything.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Why not?
I mean at this point, he'sbasically a stake in Paramount.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
At this point, he probably has like half their
stock in his back pocket at thispoint.
Yeah, I mean, this isessentially.
I mean, for those of you whohaven't seen the original days
of thunder um, this isessentially like nascar top gun,
and that's exactly why I thinkthis could and I was joking
about.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Well, obviously, joe kaczynski probably isn't going
to do it because he's alreadydoing f1 with desmond Edgerson
and Brad Pitt.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yeah, one racing movie is good enough.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Is it?
You got Gran Turismo and Needfor Speed.
Why can't there be both?
You're going to strap that kidto a $5 million racket.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
No, no.
What was Orlando Bloom doing inthat movie?
That was crazy.
Tony Scott directed the firstone.
You know he directed the firstone um.
You know, he directed the firstdays of the first days of
thunder.
He directed days of thunder umwould joe kaczynski do it.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
You think, oh, I have an idea.
Do you think tom himself woulddirect this movie?

Speaker 2 (05:36):
maybe this feels very passion.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Project d yeah it does like he wants another crack
using the all the technologythat they learned and and kind
of revolutionized on Top Gun 2.
I think he would probably belike let me get behind the
camera for this one, and in therace car, any actors you want to
see in here.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
I mean Glenn Powell's a layup right.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Glenn Powell would be good.
I feel like Paul Mescal mightbe good for something like this
as well, too.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Some of you heard this premise before.
Up character comes in, and thenglenn powell shows up as the
new hot shot and he's likeyou're past your prime, old man,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
And then he gets smoked and he gets smoked, but
then he learns a lesson yeah,and then he becomes good.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
You're the new days of thunder, glenn powell.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
He says to him at the end of the movie I'm trying to
think of some people that youcan grab in this movie.
I mean, like you said, GlennPowell is going to be a very
busy man, and then it's only amatter of time before Warner
Brothers or Disney yeah, buthe's like Tom Cruise's guy.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
So if Tom Cruise is like I want you in my Days of
Thunder sequel, glenn Powell'sjust going to be like yep, I'm
in.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Is it too on the nose to put Miles Teller in there?
Just do Top Gun again there.
Just do top gun again.
Yeah well, they're gonna haveto save the both of them,
because I'm assuming for top gunthree that maverick's gonna die
and then glenn powell and milesteller are gonna.
The two of them together aregonna kind of be the.
Yeah, you say that he can neverdie.
I wish goose was probablyrooster's probably, or goose was

(07:00):
probably trying to say that tohimself I mean this is fun.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I like the the first.
I like Days of Thunder.
Original recipe.
Days of Thunder.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Put Jake Gyllenhaal in that movie.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, it's.
I mean, the plot is going to bewhat we think it's going to be.
Probably Cole trickles back, hegets pulled into one last race
to redeem himself or something.
I don't remember what happenedto Days of Thunder.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Maybe he should be the racing coach for his kid.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Days of Thunder rewatch.
Days of Thunder retrospectiveyeah, we might have to, we're
going to have to, so that's fun.
I think that's really fun.
Good for Tom Cruise Stilltrying to get that Edge of
Tomorrow sequel made.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Somebody give that to him in a heartbeat, right?
How are we letting him do Daysof Thunder, but we're not
letting him do Edge of Tomorrow.
That might be his most, becauseBill Paxton's not with us
anymore, unfortunately, yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
All right, anyway, christopher Nolan.
So we talked a couple weeks agoabout what his next movie could
be and we thought it soundedsuspiciously like Ryan Coogler's
new movie.
And then it turns out I guessthat's not what it is?

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Well, the rumor is that this new movie is supposed
to be I think it's either aremake of something from the 80s
, if I'm not mistaken about whatis it?
It's first responders, likehelicopter first responders, and
there's a terrorist attack, orsomething like that.
I guess that's what the premiseof this new movie is, which I
think plays a little bit betterfor Tom Holland and Matt Damon
Sure Vampire 1930s horror moviefor Christopher Nolan as well
too.
And then you know what?
Also, lens Screen.
It's that too.
It's because it's because thiswhole idea that, you know, imax

(08:34):
said we have brand newtechnology for Chris to try on
the next movie.
I think that fact alone tellsme that this is going to be an
action movie.
Yeah, an action movie.
Yeah, especially after.
Oppenheimer, like you, sandwichthem in between, like right.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
This is the Nolan MO.
He does like a historical thingand then he does like a crazy
action thing.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, this could be real fun.
This movie can get real fun.
We're going to do our weeklycasting update.
Yeah, we're going to find out.
Yeah, this might be the one.
Tom Holland's Agent 5 is likeyes.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, we got him, we got him, we set him up.
So that's cool.
Good for Christopher Nolan.
Obviously, we'll see it.
We will be there, no matterwhat.
Oh yeah, so Godzilla newsTakashi Yamazaki has been given
a sequel to Godzilla Minus One,which I think is great because

(09:25):
that movie was great.
Yeah, um, I'm glad thatYamazaki is getting, you know,
kind of like that mainstream youknow appeal now as a director
because of Godzilla minus one.
Um, a different, obviously, adifferent take on Godzilla from
you know, recent Godzilla movieswhere he's like Godzilla is not
the main character anymore.

(09:45):
Nope, godzilla, and Godzilla is,you know, back to being the
minus one.
Godzilla movie basically madeGodzilla less of a character and
more of a force of nature.
Yeah, which I really, reallyliked about it.
Obviously, godzilla minus oneis really haunting, yeah, Um,
and I think it's cool that we'regoing to do a sequel Call it

(10:06):
Godzilla zero.
Haunting, yeah, um, and I thinkit's cool that we're gonna do a
sequel call it godzilla zero.
Godzilla minus one.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
godzilla's is still too many godzillas godzilla
voiced by keanu reeves I'mthinking, I'm back oh, no, no,
no.
Tokyo is like no I I said toyou before we hopped on I hope
they set this movie in in eitherin the modern day or the 80s or
something like that.
It would be fun.
Ooh, Tokyo landscape in modernday with Godzilla, but still

(10:30):
that same vibe as the firstmovie, I think would be great.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Godzilla's back again .

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, guess who's back, shit, back again.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
But no, I'd be curious, and I don't doubt that
they could.
But I would be curious if theycould kind of like pull the same
trick twice, but this Godzillamight make it like a different.
I guess, as long as the otherGodzillas are around, there's
always going to be room for theGodzilla, minus one Godzilla,
because you're always going toneed like that.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
He's the Batman of the Godzilla universe.
We're going to make our funevent movies, but then we're
also going to have our noirdetective Godzilla movie.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Godzilla vs Kong.
Godzilla vs Godzilla minus oneGodzilla.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Multiverse movie.
I'm not going to lie.
Godzilla minus one Godzilla isa problem.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, but Godzilla vs Kong Godzilla is like super
lizard.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
He's like God now.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
He got the pink power-up.
He got a super saiyan form hedid.
He's got multiple of them likeI don't know how you deal with
that godzilla um, did you haveanything else for your cinema?

Speaker 1 (11:33):
I mean just the tom holland and tom holland, lots of
tom holland in this.
Yeah, tom holland's gotmultiple.
I got tom holland news later.
Oh you do.
Yeah.
So tom holland and, uh, austinbutler and american speed, which
is going to be fun.
Um, two brothers that arenascar drivers, if I'm not
mistaken.
I can't remember if they're not.
They're nascar drivers butthey're smuggling weed across
the border.
How dare you in nascars, innascar, see it could be fun.

(11:57):
And then austin butler's inthat other movie that I'm really
that aronofsky's doing, thatI'm really looking forward to
where he's playing the baseballplayer.
I think that's going to be somefun stuff.
Matt Smith's in that movie witha big old mohawk.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, that movie I couldn't figure out.
Just based on the Matt Smithimage I'm like what is this
movie about?

Speaker 1 (12:14):
That's the most 90s baseball thing I've ever seen.
This movie's about baseball.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'm in, I'm intrigued .
Yeah, that's fun.
Good on Tom Holland.
He's doing things, he's back.
He took a break and now he'sback.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
You saw Tom Holland.
He was doing his press circuitthing.
They pulled the Spider-Manstuff out of him, unfortunately,
which I feel bad about.
Yeah, I mean, of course, butTom Holland, I believe he got
sober, if I'm not mistaken, yeah, and he came out with a uh,
non-alcoholic beer yeah, Ithought that was.
I thought that was quiteawesome yeah, good for him, man.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
I thought that was pretty awesome and it's cool
that he did this so young tooright before it got.
He's not even 30, yeah beforeit got out of control, right,
and he kind of, and he hadself-awareness too, which is
awesome and I mean, to be fair,like he's very close to robertey
Jr, so I'm sure I don't want topry into their personal lives,
right.
But I'm sure there wascommunication there because of,

(13:09):
obviously, downey's strugglewith substance abuse and stuff
like that.
So good.
On Tom Holland.
I got some Tom Holland stuffcoming up in a little bit.
But first Hollywood Reportercame with this nuclear missile
that a Game of Thrones film isin early development of warner
brothers.
Um, no writer, no director, no,nothing, it's just, it's
greenlit, let george rr martindo the whole thing I.

(13:32):
This has been a thing for a longtime of people being like do
this as a movie and I'm likethat's never gonna happen, like
that's ridiculous, like I gotnine seasons of tv and or eight
seasons of tv and now severalspinoffs, so I don't well, this
is the.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
This is the show, right?
This is the follow-up show thatwas promised.
I don't know.
This is the prince that waspromised, I don't I don't know
what this could be.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
I don't know if this could be a sequel series, a
sequel movie set in this in thethrones universe.
I don't know if this is goingto be like a oneoff.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Oh, you know what they should do Do it bright and
set it in the modern day.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Fairies' Lives Matter .

Speaker 1 (14:12):
No.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, I mean, my head has been spinning ever since
this announcement of what thestory could be.
I think a sequel series, asequel movie to the show, I
think is a definite possibility.
It all depends on, honestly, itdepends on George RR Martin, it
depends what his level ofinvolvement is going to be, and
I don't think he would come onboard for a sequel film to the

(14:40):
series.
So that makes me think.
My prevailing theory right nowis either something surrounding
the doom of valeria, becausethat could definitely carry a
major motion picture, the, whatthe doom my house survived.
The doom, because you get thevolcanoes, the dragons, the, the
big, big event, corals forlarian of wiping out let him

(15:01):
narrate that movie wiping outthe dragons and and setting the
targaryens up for futureconquest.
Um, I think robert's rebellionis a possibility, because that's
something that fans have beenclamoring for.
Um, when he was cool and hip.
Yeah, when robert rathian wascool.
Um, I think that makes a lot ofsense as a movie, just because
you don't have to tell a hell ofa lot of a story, because

(15:25):
people are already familiar withit.
So you kind of already set thestage of.
You know, you'd probably openthe movie with the abduction of
Lyanna Stark and kick off therebellion.
And the whole movie is aboutRobert Baratheon and Ned Stark
fighting the rebellion againstthe Mad King, and I think that
makes a lot of sense.

(15:45):
And then it just bleeds rightinto Game of Thrones and then
you're on your way.
Any actor that should play him.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
Young Robert Baratheon.
Didn't we look this up?

Speaker 2 (15:54):
one day you need someone kind of burly.
It sucks that Jason Momoa wasalready cast in Game of Thrones,
because I feel like he wouldhave been a good no that's using
the fall guy logic to castJason Momoa to save your movie.
Um, I think there's a.
I mean I quite liked we neversaw Robert Baratheon in young

(16:17):
Robert Baratheon live action,but I quite liked the young Ned
Stark actor who played him inseason seven of Game of Thrones.
When they do the flashback-ystuff, I think the guy from
freaking I forget who the guy'sname is from Vikings.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah .
I know exactly who you'retalking about.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like he'd be good as a young
Robert Baratheon.
I think it would just be cooljust to see all these characters
young you're talking about.
Yeah, yeah, I feel like he'd begood as a young robert
baratheon.
Um, I think it would just becool just to see all these
characters young.
Unfortunately, you do.
Ah, you could still do charlesdance as tywin lannister.
You could still do that thatwould be so fun oh god, he's so
good as tywin lannister man um,but I think it's yeah, I think

(17:02):
robert, wait a minute, listen,just hear me walk with me for a
second.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
Okay, henry cavill as a I think, robert Baratheon.
Wait a minute, listen, justhear me out, walk with me for a
second.
Okay, henry Cavill as a youngRobert Baratheon.
Like full brolic before he lethimself go.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
We've gotten Robert Baratheon.
We've gotten Henry Cavill fancasted in Game of Thrones a
trillion times.
I could see that, though, a lotof people really want him to be
Egg on the Conqueror, but Ithink people are just
Witcher-pilled because of that.
Sure, because he has a whitewig, and that People are like he
should be a Targaryen, like,hold on, yeah, relax.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, think about it.
You've seen full-bearded HenryCavill Like.
Imagine him as a young RobertBaratheon before he let himself
go.
Just before he let himself go,Just like a madman.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Swinging a big warhammer.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
That'd be cool.
Swinging a what A warhammer.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
I see what you did there.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
That's true, tom Hardy.
Tom Hardy's too old He'd bedoing a voice.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, doing a voice.
And then my other insane theoryfor what this movie could be is
George R R Martin doing hisversion of the finale of Game of
Thrones, just so he can get outof writing the book yeah, they
would never do that.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
They would never do that.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
That's my way out there theory.
But I mean, whatever man I'm in, I'll see Game of Thrones on
the big screen.
Why not?
Yeah, I think that's super funand interesting.
And I was just um.
But I mean, whatever man I'm,I'm in, I'll see game of thrones
on the big screen, why not?
Yeah, I think that's that'ssuper fun and interesting.
And I was just surprised by it.
Um, speaking of tv showsgetting green light into movies,
jack ryan is back.
Yeah, or he's coming back, shoutout krasinski man krasinski is

(18:38):
going to be starring in a jackryan movie, obviously for amazon
.
Um based, not based on the show, but like spinning off, not
even spinning off continuing theshow, um which I guess.
I guess this is just what we'redoing now for tv shows, big
prestige tv shows.
They're just getting a movie.
Just give them a film at theend of it.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Wait, we are reverting back in time, isn't
that?
Isn't this the thing that usedto happen back in the day?
Yes, I've seen the powerrangers movie from 95.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
That's so good oh, where's my autograph book?
We're gonna do that, yeah, oneday we have to um, uh, I've
never seen the jack ryan show,but I've heard it's.
I've heard it's good.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
So it's fun, is it?
He's good, krasinski good, Ithink.
He plays the line very well oflike government agent, but can
also get his hands dirty.
It's Jack Reacher's talent.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Oh, Jack Ryan should fight Reacher.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Sorry, jack Ryan, you're getting promptly murdered
.
Who's got the wittier blacksuperior?
Huh, the wittier black superiorguy, because for some reason,
all these government shows haveone.
I don't know.
Why is that the test like?
Why is that a thing I don'tknow and you know exactly.

(19:53):
You know, I'm right you areright, I'll have one um.
The one from reacher's like,he's like a jerk, he's like a
smug jerk, but but the one fromJack Ryan, he's funny, he's
funny, he's funny.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
So good for John Krasinski.
He's not directing, I wouldimagine right he could.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
I don't think there's a director of any sort yet.
I think that would be a goodchoice.
Just let him do it himself.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
What else have we got here?
Oh, spider-man, I did that.
Um, what else we got here?
Oh, spider-man, I did promise Ihad tom holland news.
Um.
So spider-man 4 officially hasa release date of july 24th 2026
.
Um, so there's a year and ahalf from now, that's gonna
approach really fast.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
It's gonna get here real, real fast yeah, yeah, um.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
it will be set between avengers, doomsday and
secret wars, um Wars, whichloosely confirms that Spider-Man
will probably be the maincharacter of these Avengers
movies.
Yeah, one of the maincharacters, yeah, which I think
makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
It makes sense.
It's still a bit unfortunate.
I mean this is other talk thanwhatever we talk about Doomsday
we do a Doomsday preview.
This is other talk thanwhatever we talk about doomsday
like we do a doomsday preview,like we can talk about more.
It still hurts a bit becauseobviously they did this
incredible setup to finally gethim to be the neighborhood
spider-man.
You get daredevil back into themcu.
They seem like they have goodchemistry together, like that

(21:20):
could have been such a funlittle street level.
And then spider-man goes inthere and he goes back.
He goes back down to all ofthem too.
You do Devil's Reign.
Essentially you just pivot alittle bit to get it from a
singular Daredevil versusKingpin to kind of like a
pivoted Spider-Man DaredevilKingpin triumvirate.
But they're going to make thatdoesn't make a billion dollars,

(21:41):
exactly.
You know who does make abillion dollars.
Exactly.
You know who does make abillion dollars.
Andrew garfield and tom hollandmake you, or tom holland and
and toby mcguire make you abillion dollars yeah, um, so
that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
They're framing spider-man is going to be the,
the core character of theseavengers movies which, let's be
honest, they wanted to do that,yeah, for a while, but they just
, obviously, he was inserted solate into the infinity saga that
, like you, couldn't how do youpivot?

Speaker 1 (22:06):
how do you pivot this to null?
Because we kind of know whatthis movie is going to be.
I can't, I still cannot believeit um, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
I mean having not seen venom, I don't.
I don't know um I don't knowwhat we sony is so unpredictable
it's insane.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
We don't know what they're making.
An agent venom movie movie Isaw yesterday too.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Insane, whatever they gotta doman Whatever it takes.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
But you, I'm assuming you just do, you just do Noel,
you have.
You know, you just have thefour of them.
There are the three of themplus Tom Hardy Plus Morbius no
them plus Tom Hardy Plus Morbiusno.
So when you do the three ofthem plus Tom, Hardy Plus Milo.
Morbius no, Anytime Matt Smithshows up in a thing, it

(22:51):
immediately becomes goaded.
So Exactly.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
I don't know.
I don't know what thisSpider-Man 4 movie's gonna be.
Kingpin versus Noel.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
You embarrassed me in front of Vanessa.
Maybe he'll become the ExtremeBeout.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Ooh man, kingpin with a symbiote.
I'm sure it's happened.
If it hasn't happened, itshould.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
I don't know man, I don't know.
I can't believe Daniel DustinCretton is going to direct this
movie, which that in and ofitself is cool.
That I really appreciate.
Yeah, because I think theaction is going to be tight.
Yep, the action's going to betight.
I think he does some reallysolid, like you know, some
groundwork character-wise.
I think he's good for that aswell too.
It's just my biggestunfortunate nature is that they

(23:37):
I do think that was the idea isthat they were going to do
Daredevil and Spider-Man versusKingpin.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
And they still might.
They still might to be fair,Like maybe Feige looks at the
Null thing and just is like youknow what?
Just do your own weird Nullmovie, Mm-hmm, and leave
Spider-Man out of it.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
I don't think he's naive, though I think he
understands.
Like that Billion with a Bkeeps the lights on.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, that's true, andrew and toby keep the lights
on or they both, or they both,or both sides win, and you just
get garfield to do the sonything with no, and then holland
does his own street level thingyeah, he joked about it too.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Like in the movie like I, I want to fight an alien
.
Like here's your chance.
Like here's your chance, here'syour chance.
I just don't.
I don't see a world where theymade a billion f the three of
them together and they don't dothat again.
And you get Andy Serkis to playNoel on top of that too.
You're not just going to wastehim, like Star Wars wasted him.
That's a different discussion.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, yeah, it's true .
There's a lot of interestingpivots that can take place with
this Noel thing.
They're almost certainlycutting bait with the other
characters, right?

Speaker 1 (24:46):
yeah, like morbius um webb.
Madam webb craven, see ya like.
We don't need any of you guyslike we don't need any of you
guys like just multi andespecially since this is going
to be after doomsday, that'sprobably gonna like nah, well,
it's probably gonna open themultiverse up and whatever
they're gonna probably explain.
I you know what I think thismovie's gonna do.
I think it's probably going toopen the multiverse up and
whatever they're going toprobably explain.
You know what I think thismovie is going to do.
I think it's going to anchorbeing it, but I think the anchor

(25:07):
being thing is going to alsomess with the web or whatever
it's called.
Across the Spider-Verse.
Those two things aren't goingto like the anchor beings.
They're going to do some stupidnot stupid, but they're going
to do things.
That's gonna mess with thatbecause they set it up in Across
the Spider-Verse.
I do also think we're gonna seesome Across the Spider-Verse

(25:28):
characters in that movie.
Take the full swing.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
I do like the idea of like Null's coming and then
Venom's like I need allies tofight.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Null and Morbius shows up and Venom's like nah,
you should do the same thingfrom Deadpool and Wolverine,
where he, like, peruses themultiverse.
Not you Get lost.
I think it has something to dowith Spider-Man.
You were right this time,michael Keaton, it did.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
It did have something I don't know, We'll see, I
guess which pivots nicely intothe Marvel sizzle reel that we
got, which I didn't know thatthey did until I watched the
last episode of Agatha Yep, lastepisode of Agatha Yep, and they
showed it and I was like ooh.
I said what's this?
I said wait, wait, I thought itwas a Deadpool and Wolverine
thing and then it was just likehere's everything I'm like whoa.
So what did we get in the sizzlereel?
We'll save Daredevil for last,because I know that's what you

(26:12):
want to talk about the most itlooks cute, it feels unnecessary
, sure, sure, I think that's allthat sony would give to marvel
as well, too.
Young spider-man, youngspider-man.
Um yeah, I mean it looks fine.
I I think it's.
It's really cool.

(26:33):
I like the animation style.
Animation is very differentlike the cel-shaded kind of
comic booky.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, harry osborn's got the waves yeah, yep, coleman
domingo is playing norman.
Let him play norman in themovies.
Hear me out, I'm, I'm hearingyou, I'm hearing you, I'm
listening.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Imagine that that'd be great.
He would cook.
Oh my god, that would beincredible look um, but yeah, it
looks, it looks fun.
I don't know if I'm necessarilydying to see it, but I think it
looks fun um marvel zombiesgood stuff could be properly
scary spooky.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
It's r-rated and that's the tv tvma which which
was my biggest.
Like the first f-bomb that goesoff in that show, I'm gonna be
like what the um, we didn't.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
I mean we didn't get.
We got to look at a couple ofdifferent things.
We got moon knight blade, yeahyep moon knight and blade.
That's cool.
Who's playing blade?
It'd be kind of hilarious ifit's marshall.
Yeah, the comedy would be kindof hilarious if it's Marshall.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Ali.
Yeah, the comedy would be offthe charts if it was.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
What If season three Yep, the last season, the final
season of what If we don't knowreally much about it?
As far as episodes and stuffObviously this is an episode
with the Red Guardian is in one.
I'm assuming Captain Carter isgoing to come back, much to my
dismay.
I'm just not a fan of thatcharacter anymore.
Yeah, first season, I was allon board.

(27:50):
Second season I'm like allright, I'm kind of over this.
She hasn't.
She's not interesting right now.
They took, they just made herCaptain America, but H I'm just
like that's not what that and alittle tougher, a little like.
Yeah, that's not what made thatcharacter fun in the first
season.
The first season she was funbecause she was really brash and
like look at me, I'm a cool,look how cool I am.

(28:13):
My super soldier power is likethat's what I wanted.
And then they were just likenah, she's just Captain America
and I'm like ugh B Wakanda.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
That looks good that animation looks awesome.
That animation looks so cooland I mean this is a cool, weird
Jiven project.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
He's involved in the creation of it, so I'm sure it's
going to be good.
Right, I'm sure the lore isgoing to be there.
The story is going to be reallygood.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Switching to live action Iron Heart, butcher,
butcher the Line.
This show could be okay.
This show has the potential tobe alright, a ringing
endorsement from the ProjectInfinite podcast.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
This show might be alright.
This show could be okay.
You know we got again.
This is just one of those, andmaybe I'll be wrong, because
Agatha proved me wrong and maybeAgatha is the gateway to this
sort of stuff, or Agatha becomesthe problem, where it's like we
expect everything to be Agathabut like, by the time this
Ironheart show comes out, it'llhave been four years since we've

(29:09):
seen Ironheart and that was thebig issue.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
And looking at the landscape, I think off of
everything that goes intoWakanda Forever.
I do think Marvel said put RiriWilliams in this thing.
We need her to get debutedsomewhere.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, and I think you know, know, I didn't.
I walked out of wakanda foreverliking her, yeah, but I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Ironheart was not my prevailing thought, walking out
of that exactly and imagine ifyou remove her from that movie
as well too.
Nothing changes.
Nothing changes.
You just figure out how to.
Who made the?
Whatever it is.
You can tease, tease it and belike this girl from Chicago made
this thing, and then us nerdswould be like I know, that ain't

(29:49):
who I think you're talkingabout over there.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, so honestly, I'm already thinking that the
first episode of Ironheart isgoing to be like reintroducing
her to us Because it's been solong and I'm just like you're
kind of wasting your firstepisode.
Like Agatha didn't do that,We'll talk about it.
I mean, we did talk about thefirst episode, but Agatha was
like you remember this, youremember?
No, they didn't even do that,they just dropped her into the

(30:11):
weird.
You're like, oh, it's weird.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Like WandaVision again, which I like that so much
, but we'll talk about that in asecond.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, what a Yep.
Not my hood.
He's not my hood.
Not my hood, oliver Queen's myhood, I'm sure he'll be fine.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Remember when Lance tried to arrest Oliver?
That was crazy.
Are you the man in this picture?
No, no.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Kind of want to take the lie detector test.
I love Arrow.
What a show.
Speaking of Arrow, oh, we can'tdo that yet.
Yeah, yeah, um wonder man dude.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Look, I have two of a team, one of the coolest guys
on the planet.
That was my takeaway.
That was my takeaway from thatcool.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
I went wait, is it wait?
Did he just carry this as areal base aura?

Speaker 1 (30:54):
no powers, no marvelisms of anything.
All his vibes.
All he did was walk to the.
He said I'm simon williamsauditioning for Wonder man.
I said wait, a Whoa, whoa, whoa.
His aura, his aura is blinding.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
I need some sunglasses, I can't see, and
then he had that one shot of himwhere he had sunglasses on.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, he had the tried and true 80s Wonder man
suit on.
I said wait a second, wait aWhoa.
So I think I don't know.
I like the vibes.
What is this show going to be?
It's a comedy, right.
I think they should lean intothis being like a comedy, like a
tried and true, like AbbottElementary, like you know your
ABCs, your NBCs, that's what.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
I think it is.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
I think that's such a better sell as well, too, to
like as She-Hulk was, like thisself-aware, you know, breaking
the fourth wall comedy.
I would like this as a triedand true comedy, with a little
bit of drama elements sprinkledin here too.
Ben Kingsley is going to be init.
Evan Peters is going to be inthis We'll talk about.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Evan Peters Grim.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Reaper is going to be in this movie as his brother
slash the villain of the show.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Not my favorite character, Grim Reaper.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Daniel Dustin Cretton is also.
He had like a.
Not only did he direct this, hewas like I think he was one of
the producers.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, he was adamant about this.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Obviously, my man from Snake Eyes that played
Snake Eyes was supposed to beWonder man.
I forget his name John SnakeEyes.
Nope, that's not it, Dude, whata pivot to get.
It's one of those things whereit's the Steven, those things
where, like it's the steven yoonconversation of him not playing
.
Obviously we were excited thathe got originally cast as bob,

(32:30):
as robert reynolds, but then youget, uh, you get lewis pullman
and you're like, wait a minute,I see it.
I still see it.
Like this is still a win-win onboth fronts.
Like this one feels like thatsame thing and, like I said, I'm
simon williams auditioning forwonder man.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
I said, wait a minute , wait a second yeah, I was just
caught off guard by the, by thecharisma.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
I was like wait a second and that's what you and
agatha is a perfect example ofthat.
Like that can, if yourwriting's tight, your charisma
can take that over the edge andlike, really get innovated with
that too yeah, um, thatdaredevil.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
We got some writing writers, show writers, episode
writers, a lot of Arrow, a lotof the Flash and a lot of the
Punisher.
I noticed and I'm like, ah, mypeople, these are my people.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Those are your people .
They actually called you andthey said is this good?
And you said yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
So it looks good to me, boss.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
I mean, what can we say?
This show looks amazing.
It looks dangerously good.
The action looks incredible.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
What are you going to do, right?

Speaker 1 (33:37):
All your favorites are back Jon Punisher's back Jon
the Punisher.
Jon the Punisher.
Barthol looks great, mrs.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
D'Onofrio looks great .

Speaker 1 (33:48):
This is gearing up to be pretty special and like a
show that can really go to thewell on as well too, of like.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
no, we're going to run this show for like as many
seasons as we can get out ofCharlie Cox yeah, I mean I'm,
yeah, I mean, you know, it'sjust one of those things where,
like I look at the and the castand I'm just like everyone's
gonna put it and it's like oneof those things, like we talked

(34:15):
about this show, like it'sproduction woes of, like it
feels like everyone that theyeventually got back is gonna
come into this like just give it200.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, because they probably walked into the room
and they were like hey, rememberwhen we decided to murder you
guys in the first episode notanymore, you get to be in the
show they were like well, thankyou.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
yeah, like I'm sure, I'm sure Debra Ann Wall's gonna
be great, elton Campbell's gonnabe great.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Bernd Dahl is probably gonna be really great.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Oh my gosh, he looks so good in this.
And then I mean Cox andD'Onofrio are gonna just bring
it over the top and we're gonnago?

Speaker 1 (34:39):
yep, they have one of the most special relationships
in this universe.
This is truthfully like likethey're going to work together,
or he might represent him, whichwould be all sorts of crazy.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, I just I can't say enough ever since.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Remember when they did, they gave him two suits in
the show and they and then theshow they said two suits, give
him every suit that he's everhad.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
18 episodes, though I hope, oh Lord.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Cause this is going to pull.
I think this is going to be acombination of it's got a little
bit of mark wade sprinkled inthere, but this really does feel
like frank miller mixed withchip zadarsky's run.
So I hope for a season two.
I hope the electra actresscomes back.
I hope she gets to play electraagain, who says she can't die
twice.
So I hope she comes back.

(35:22):
I hope they do tried and truedevil's reign and I hope they do
the whole zadarsky run inseason two.
Like get him in the prison,like get him to be a prisoner
and him just going insane inthere.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'm on board.
I mean, when that show comesout in March?
Yeah, that's four short monthsaway.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, I might have to request off for that.
I can't be bothered when theshow comes out For every week,
every week.
Don't talk to me.
My king is back.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Don't talk to him, for was it eight episodes, ten
episodes Thirteen, I thought.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
right, I thought they were going.
I don't know, hang on, it'seither nine or thirteen.
I think they're going.
It was eighteen, eighteenepisodes.
Eighteen episodes, though,that's a lot of episodes.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Wait, it's too many episodes, is what they said.
Premise Episodes, just says one.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
He only needs one episode to be goaded.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
There's only one on here.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Maybe they should end this Daredevil Nine episodes.
Maybe they should end this.
They cut it in half, jerks.
Maybe they should turn thisDaredevil show into and they
should end it with a movie.
That should be the vibes goingforward, man man.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
All right time to talk about agatha all along.
Um, what a show, holy moly man.
Just, I mean, we kind of talkedabout it when we talked about
episode one and two, but like,just, I've never, never, like
been a part, not been a part ofa show, I wasn't on it but like
witnessed like this justcollective apprehension to like

(36:57):
a show and being like, do wereally need this?
And then you watch the firstcouple and you're like, okay,
and then it just kept gettingbetter and better and better and
you're like, wait they?
By the time it was done I waslike, was that the best one?
Like what?
Like?
Was that the best?
Like one of the best, if notthe best one that they've ever
done?
And I think it's just atestament to jack shaffer,

(37:19):
obviously the the creative mindbehind this, um, and then just
this incredible cast that theyput together and just it's.
I hope, my, my hope is thatcoming out of this is marvel
learns from this show.
Yeah, in a sense, and it's alesson you probably would have
expected to learn from loki.
And it's that when you don'thave to like include all the

(37:42):
bells and whistles, like wedon't need this, like over the
top.
Yeah, notoriously the thesmallest budget that they've had
on any of these shows a lot ofpractical stuff um on this show
when it came to set design, whenit came to costuming, um, even
some stuff that I didn't thinkwas practical ended up being
practical.
Um, and just, I hope they learn.

(38:04):
You don't need a giant budgetto make this happen.
You don't need a bombastic,giant battle at the end, you
don't.
You don't need to like litter,litter the ground with future
easter eggs and dangling thingslike just give us nine to ten
episodes of well-written,well-acted, character-driven

(38:29):
show and you'll reap thebenefits of that, because you
have some immensely talentedpeople waiting for you.
And let those immenselytalented people be immensely
talented and you'll reap thebenefits.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
And I think that's ultimately what the mission
statement of the show was yeah,and I mean this is a testament
to like we said before, justsome dialed writing and
everybody being bought into thesame show.
I mean this is a testament tolike we said before, just some
dialed writing and everybodybeing bought into the same show.
I mean I can't stress thatenough.
For anything we've talked about, any projects we've talked
about, it's when everybody is onthe same page of the project
they're making, that projectwill automatically be a little

(39:05):
bit better.
A little bit better, it's anear perfect when that happens.
Automatically be a little bitbetter when a little bit better,
it's a near perfect when thathappens.
I mean your near perfectideology, for that is something
like dune dune and dune 2specifically, of like every
single person on that set knewexactly what movie they were
making, every single last personof them.
This show tells me that almosteverybody on that set, everybody
from that cast and crew, knewexactly what show they were

(39:26):
making.
And that starts with jackschaefer.
That starts exactly with herknowing this universe, knowing
the characters in this universe,and not only knowing the
characters but having the, thetrust to say no, no, no, no.
Agatha is not some redemptiveloki variant character.
That is, you know gonna be thisbig tri triumphant return to

(39:47):
heroism and correct, no, no, no,she's a bad person like I am a.
It's not that I'm a bad person,I'm a, I'm a human.
I think that's the biggest tellthat I can get from that show
how human of you to.
She probably might be one ofthe most relatable characters in
this universe at this point,especially after that ninth
episode yeah, like I texted you.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
The finale I said is the thing that gets revealed
about her in that ninth episodelike one of the most canonically
evil things that any characterhas done in the MCU to this
point, um, and the other thing,like I'm, I'm, I was worried
about this show, was I?
I just because of Marvel's, theMCU's track record, especially
over the last few years, like Ireally was afraid they were just

(40:26):
gonna like lean into the meme,yeah, of the character no, you
know what I mean.
And like lean into like lookhow wacky she is, whoa, no no,
and you know what helped too,and I think this was.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
It's kind of allegorical to think about it.
It's where the first episodestarts.
It's like a triple prongedallegory, because one is the
fact that they pay homage towandavision, but it's
likeandaVision in the 2020 eraof television.
Like that's the one piece oftelevision we didn't hit was
like the streaming era oftelevision we didn't hit.
So I thought that was funny.
And the fact that it's from thestreaming service, they kind of
you know, they play it off ofMayor of East Town with Kate

(41:00):
Winslet.
They kind of they make her forthat first episode.
I think is smart.
Your other piece for it, too, isunderstanding that you know you
have some leg room that youhave to operate with, too.
You have, you have a heavy lift, like you're following up the
first, and it's not only thefact that she, she does it, she
pays homage, she immediatelykills it and she's like no, no,

(41:21):
this is this own show.
Now I'm just giving you guysthe.
You know we were here at onepoint.
We're done with this.
Now we're we're done like thisis this is our own show.
But I mean, I can't stressenough how great Catherine Han
is.
Like she's dangerously good.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, and her range in the show is unbelievable.
She sells that character sowell, in the sense that, episode
to episode, you truly don'tknow what her motivations are.
You truly don't know what she'sgoing to do, right until the
moment that she does something.
And I think that's really rare,especially in this genre,

(41:56):
especially in the superherorealm.
You know, a lot of charactersare very cut and dry, there
aren't a lot of dimensionality.
This is all stuff we've talkedabout, you know, when we talk
about the shortcomings of someof these things.
And that brings me to like,like another point about the
just the, the supportingcharacters.
Yeah, they built, and it'ssomething, again, that not a lot
of these marvel shows have done.

(42:16):
You know, I think quite a fewof them fall short in developing
the supporting characters.
Um, this show was one.
Again, I was kind of worriedabout it, but at the same time,
I specifically rememberespecially the patty lupe
casting where I was like wow,like patty lupe, like yeah, like

(42:37):
that for those of you who don'tknow patty lupe, like she is,
she's like royalty on the stageyeah, she is like a mount
rushmore stage performer and I'mlike, wow, like patty luppone
is in this show?

Speaker 1 (42:50):
what are you doing?
What kind?

Speaker 2 (42:51):
of show, like I knew there was going to be like
musical, and the funny thing is,no, the musical part, obviously
the battle of the witch's road.
They use it, they sing it overand over and over again and it's
, it's great, it's a catchy song.
But, man, they built episodeseven around lillian, around
patty lu lupe, and they justtook this legendary actress and

(43:12):
said this is your episode.
Yep, and it paid incredibledividends because of what they
did with that character theprevious six episodes.
You know, they built that layerof like what is going on with
her, like what is she, what isher deal, know?
And then episode seven, they dothe lost memento thing with

(43:34):
Lilia and you know, and how thepieces and the pieces they
didn't.
What I love what they did withepisode seven is they didn't
force the pieces to fit, theyjust revealed to us slowly how
the pieces fit together and itmakes for like one of the most
satisfying conclusions I've everseen.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
It's hinging on borderline like prestige
television levels of writingespecially.
And then I mean Jack, shit, youknow, sometimes when the
showrunner slash director orshowrunner slash writers come in
to direct an episode, likeobviously Druckmann did the
first episode, which episodes of?
I think he did the first andthe eighth episode?
Yeah, he did the first episode,which episodes of?
I think he did the first andthe eighth episode?

Speaker 2 (44:10):
yeah he did the first episode and then, no, no, he,
because craig mason did thefirst episode.
Um, I don't remember.
I think he did the third.
No, he didn't do the thirdepisode.
I can't remember which earlyseason episode he did, but he
did do the left behind episode.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
I do know that right so this episode, like I know
jack, probably pulled out allthe stops.
I know a lot of the budget wentto that episode.
You can definitely tell.
But you know this is one of thebest things tonally about this
show is it knows when to pushand pull.
Like this show has to kind ofgo on the wavelength of of tone
like and that's a difficultthing when your show has to kind

(44:46):
of your show, your project hasto, you know, fluctuate a little
bit in tone like.
In my opinion that's not toomuch of an issue as long as that
tone is where it's needed atthat point in the story.
Like you're, you're playingwith fire.
When you do something like that, like that's a but, like gone
right, you get episode sevenwhich is one of the better
episodes of television I've everseen.
Like that episode is fun.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
That is some phenomenal work it's man, it's
such it's so hard to pull offyep it's, it's somber, but it's
triumphant at the end like it isman.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
What a what a performance from patty lapone
but long for.
Like you know, event televisionlike that to pull off something
like that is remarkable, and Imean it's now one of the highest
rated episodes of televisionperiod.
I think it's one of the highestones that there's been.
Yeah it's outstanding and Iremember people like you know,
because scoopers will find a wayto get information.

(45:38):
I remember people were sayinglike once they, the last three,
were left, they were saying likeno, no, seven is like this is a
special episode of television.
Remind me a lot of the sandmanepisode that we, you know, we
talked about all the time.
Obviously, you get into likeLoki, season one, episode six,
like you're sitting there andyou're like I can't believe I'm
watching.
What I'm watching right now,like this is truthfully

(45:59):
incredible.
Like everybody's so locked in,they're dialed in, but there
there's so much of trust thatcomes like and like you said,
from somebody like patty laponeto go in somewhere like that and
like I don't need this.
Essentially, like I'm I'm oneof the most famous people who
ever stepped foot on a stagelike I don't truthfully need
this.
Like that sell to her to dothat is probably what got her

(46:20):
there yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
And then episode seven, when the pieces fall into
place and she launches intothat monologue you, you know,
you're just locked in, like it'sone of those.
You know, it's like that wetalked about the Top Gun
Maverick like the roller coaster, like the seatbelt, and you're
in your seat when she getsrolling, when she I forget what
the exact line is when she saysI know what I did wrong, you're

(46:44):
locked in bro, you're locked inin brother.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
You want her to win.
So bad because and it's thatlittle piece of that, you know
it gets that like almost likethat movie-esque, like aspect
ratio, and it flashes back tothe past for her and, like you
know, I forget what they call itum, the woman that I don't know
if that's her actual mother, um, but she says, like you know,
what does she say to her?
She's like why are you here?
Or like she's kind of basicallysay like it's not time yet, but

(47:08):
you'll get there.
You're here, but not yet.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
Or you already have been here.
Yeah, so I mean just Tai Luponman.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
She's the queen.
You know what this show does.
That like something like BobaFett didn't do it backburners
Agatha but still leaves her.
As I know.
This is the main character ofthis show, but you don't need to
be right this second.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
Well, you know why that's so good?
It's because of how goodCatherine Han is, that she makes
the most she's in WandaVision.
She makes the most of the timethat she's given and the lines
that she's given.
Everything that she delivers isvery snappy, very snappy,
delivered very deliberately, andyou get exactly what she was
trying to convey, like, even ifthere's an episode where she's

(47:51):
barely in it.
Yeah, I forget which episode itis, but she's barely in the
episode.
Um, it might be, I can'tremember exactly which episode
it was, but there's one where Iwas just like man, she was like
off screen for, like most ofthis, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (48:03):
uh, billy's up williams episode.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
The teens episode we teenager Damn use this full name
.
I mean we gotta talk aboutSasha Zamata, she again.
It's like what Patty LuPonething like when she needed to
rise to the occasion in episode8, where she gets that scene
with Agatha.
You're like.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
It's such a train that she goes on.
She's the definition of thisshow.
She goes on like a, like atrain ride, like it starts off
slow, you pick up steam, butonce you get to the destination
there's a relief that comes withit.
And there's it's it feels soearned as well, because you get
that fear that she's like thequippy side character that's
going into and that you can kindof rely on her to be like oh,

(48:47):
what the heck's going on.
And then you know, you start toget deeper and deeper into the
show.
You hit episode seven, therelationship she starts to have
with these characters with lilyespecially.
But then episode three does sucha great job not only setting up
the structure of the show withall the trials and how they're
they're working then it startsto dip into like let's do some
true character work, and theygive everybody some equal time

(49:08):
in episode three.
Like it's not like this, you'regonna, we're gonna focus on you
later, but it might not hitbecause there's another director
of this.
No, no, like all of you guysare gonna get equal setup.
I think the only character thatsuffers and I don't even think
it's a suffer, I just think it'sbecause it was she's the first
one up is alice might be, butit's still.
But still, that episode itselfprobably pulled on the

(49:29):
heartstrings the most outside ofepisode seven, because they did
such a great job of building upher as like the tether to the
witch's road.
And and a teen dot dot dot, thatshe was the one that was
tethered so much to the witch'sroad.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a great point about
you know, and and Allian was isgreat as Alice Gulliver,
because it builds to that moment.
So naturally, when you knowthat's what I again to your
point about building eachepisode kind of like around the
trials, like each character kindof gets a little bit of shine
and that's why it's cool thatthey got Jen's trial out of the

(50:04):
way so early so that it comesall the way back around to
episode eight where again itbrings it back to the agatha
point, like you think.
You think it's one thing aboutjen, like why she doesn't have
her powers, and then it'srevealed that it was agatha that
took her powers from her, andyou're like and she didn't even
care, like she didn't even.
She's like oh, I just took it, Ijust took a job.

(50:25):
Yeah, I didn't know if it wasyou, like who cares, right, and
that's how you know.
You're like jesus christ, like,and then you think it can't get
any worse.
And then it gets worse, and you, I mean again, I can't say
enough good things about thecast um, which brings me to joe
lock.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
What uh, what?
Uh, y'all must not, y'all musthave forgot.
Like, welcome to my momentperformance.
Yeah, um, I can immediatelytell they're going to shift him
immediately to the.
Yeah, it's going to be him andHim and why can't I remember her
name?
It's going to be him and MissMarvel are going to be the main
two characters, easily, of theYoung Avengers.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Also, they're going to probably put their foot on
the gas of that Young Avengersmovie to make sure that gets
made ASAP after this especiallyyeah, I mean, and what I love
about this show again and Ithink Jack Schaefer is very
deliberate with this is shedidn't she didn't mess around
with the, with the mystery of itall, like I don't.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
I think she deliberately tried to avoid a
WandaVision like escalation oftheory crafting, because if it
doesn't happen, everybody's likewell, this show is pointless.
And if it does happen, happen,everybody's like well, this show
is pointless.
And if it does happen, at theend they're just like.
We already knew this was goingto happen.
Then why did you care about it?

Speaker 2 (51:39):
So they do the reveal in episode four.
They're just like here.
He is Spoiler alert.
He's Wiccan.
He's Billy Maximoff.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Yeah, pulling straight from the comics,
somebody made a great pointSimplified the heck out of what
the comics tried to do with thatcharacter it makes.
So it's so much simpler, somuch easier to follow for, like
a casual viewer.
Essentially, when the hex wasbeing made or the hex was being,
you know, disbanded, and Wanda,wanda used the last bit of her
power to kind of put Billy andTommy's consciousness out into

(52:06):
the world for two dying souls toget.
So Billy gets into one andobviously, billy being the son
of the Scarlet Witch, he gets alittle bit of the better power
set.
He gets to do a lot more.
Yeah, he gets telepathic powers.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, and it's a great reveal.
I think everyone it's asatisfying reveal.
You know not, and this is youknow.
Going back to Game of Thrones,that's where game of thrones
flop like kind of flopped at theend, is they?
They did too much, trying tosubvert expectations when
they're like no, we didn't wantjohn snow to be the one to kill
the night king, because thatwould have been too obvious.

(52:39):
Yeah, but you built sevenseasons worth of television
making the night king johnsnow's antithesis.
Like sometimes you just got togive the people what they want.
Just give them what you've beenfeeding us.
Don't just be like, haha,tricked, ya, you know what I
mean.
That's where a lot of shows Ifeel like screw up.
They're like we tricked.
Ya, I don't want to be tricked.
You laid the groundwork for himto be Wiccan.

(53:02):
I'm glad that he's Wiccan.
I'm glad that he's not like anagent of Mephisto or he's not
like, you know, ralph Boneragain.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Like I'm glad that you just made him wicked.
Going to Jack Schaefer's pointabout and your point about Jack
Schaefer, I should say, is theunderstanding of hey, like no,
this is a tried and truetelevision show.
Like my fear is that this wasgoing to turn into a straight up
comedy.
Like, just tried and true.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Oh, no, it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
This show gets sad.
This show gets sad and somber,Especially the last three
episodes.
Oh Lord, yeah, it does.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
So he's, I mean he's great, and he's great, he's
great as teen he plays the naive.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
You know, I don't know what's going on, I don't
understand anything, and Agathacalls him out on it.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Agatha calls him out on it after the reveal, and
she's like you're just like yourmother.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
She's like what's this.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Let's say she doesn't like her, like Catherine
hotline sing songy voice what'sa sigil?
Like I don't know what that isLike she and she calls him.
I love that.
It's directly confronted andthen once that switch flips and

(54:11):
he becomes wiccan and he becomesbilly caplan he's like.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
He's like the switch flips.
I also love what they did withhis bonovation, because it does
two things a it separateshimself from wanda.
B it kind of it makes him his,his own separate entity of a
character that can lead rightinto the young aven Avengers
himself and be one of the maincharacters of Vision Quest.
Slash Young Avengers.
Like oh, you're looking forToby Tommy.

(54:36):
That's what I said.
It's so simple but it's so good.
Like I just want my brother.
That's it.
I don't know if and again, I'mstill William Kaplan.
Like William Kaplan still livesinside of me.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
I love that he took the adopted son approach of like
I don't really care about Wanda.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Yeah, she's not here.
I don't see her.
She wasn't really my mom RightLike Tommy's my brother, though,
and he's out there somewhere.
Like he's out there, so I canfeel his soul out there
somewhere I'm like I need to, Ineed to get him.
And she kind of tells him, Iknow how you can get him, like
you're not gonna like the waythat you do, but again, like he,
this.
This show operates with suchthese complexities for the

(55:19):
characters too and her justbeing like.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
You know, she's constantly after the reveal.
She's constantly reinforcinghim.
Don't be afraid of who you areand again because you don't know
her.
You're like is she doing thisto make him morph him into some
sort of thing for her own gains,or is she genuinely trying to
help him?

Speaker 1 (55:41):
the answer is yes.
To both yes, the answer is yes.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
The answer is yes to both 100.
That's exactly right.
It's exactly right because shecan't help herself.
She can't help herself but tofind the self satisfaction and
self preservation in any givensituation she's in doesn't
matter who it is, how it's done.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
I mean, she killed, sharon dies and she's just like
well, mrs Hart, that's not MrsHart, that's Sharon Davis.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
she's like nobody cares she was tremendous by the
way, oh yeah.
I wish she was in this show forlonger me too, but she was just
great as like.
And again it comes all backaround to the big reveal.
Like you understand why agathawas so flippant about this
entire thing, because spoiler itwas indeed agatha all along.

(56:26):
Yeah, it was, it was.
The Witch's Road is a con.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yep, it's not real until somebody made it real,
which is another incrediblereveal.
It's a double-stacked reveal.
It's a double-stacked reveal, adouble-stacked.
A Dave's, double A Dave'sdouble of the reveals.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, I thought that was brilliant.
I thought the reveal that Billycreating the road was going to
be the reveal.
And then they spend episodenine telling you no, she's a
horrible person, Even thoughthat she felt she had proper
motivation for doing what shedid.
But she wasn't killing witchesover centuries because of her

(57:05):
dead son.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
And you think that's what this whole show is leading
to that these witches didsomething to her or her coven
did no, no, no, she just lovespower and dragged her son into
it before he died.
And she dragged her son intothis whole charade that she was
putting up.
What a great plan she wascooking.
She was just like did I justthink of all this myself?

Speaker 2 (57:23):
That montage of her singing the ballad across
decades is like one of the mosthaunting things, and that's what
I was talking about earlierwhen I texted you.
I said is this one of the mostcanonically evil things a
character's done in the MCUbesides Thanos?

Speaker 1 (57:38):
She's just murdering these for power, these innocent
witches and some of thesewitches probably want things
that you know.
That you think at the beginningof this show she also because
you're thinking what she doesshe wants her son back.
But it's not like this.
You know this noble, I want?
No, no, I, just I.
And what other mother?

(57:58):
And that's why these charactersare complex.
Especially she is like I wantmy son back, like I, I want my.
And at the end of episode eight, where you know billy does his
thing on the road he leaves, jendoes her thing on the road, she
leaves, and like Agatha's leftthere, agatha's first thought is
like oh wait, I can bring Nikkiback if I do this quick spell,

(58:20):
like she's not thinking, like Ineed my thing.
At the end of the road, she'slike no, no, no, I can get Nikki
back if I plan it.
No, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
It's like that's her, it's the only way her mind
works yeah, it's, it's crazy, um, and it just again it brings
you back to, like the wiccanthing of like, and I love how
they did it, made it so likeback in wandavision, like they
always kind of had a connection,him and her.
When he's in the house, aftershe she's babysitting them and

(58:48):
she's like oh, how do you likethe house, or whatever, and he's
like it's quiet, he's likeyou're quiet, agnes, cause he
can't get in her mind.
And then episode eight comesand he finally does.
He finally gets in her mind atthe moment that he needed to the
most.
When he's like can you likeonce in your life, like like,
help someone else please?
And then she does, but she doesit as a she does.

(59:13):
See, again, this is thebrilliant part about this
character like she does do itsort of for him, but she also
does it as an fu.
Yeah to our final cast memberthat we have to talk about,
which is aubrey plaza as riovidal.
Yeah, the, the I would say thecasting got the most like ooh,
you gotta be somebody.
Yeah, you're Aubrey Plaza fromTV, from acting.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
And she is somebody.
She's somebody big, yeah, notmassive Like this, is like a
huge deal.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
But again, it's one of those things where like
people were like it could bethis, and then Jack Schaefer was
like it is this.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
It.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
It could be this.
And then Jack Schaefer was likeit is this, it is this.
Like here, we're not going todance around it too much.
The reveal is great.
Yep, it's properly haunting.
It's one of the.
I mean I guess we'll get intothe Let the Director Cook award,
but mine is for Jack Schaeferfor that seventh episode, the
death reveal.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Oh yeah, this one.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
We we got to give out some awards for this show.
Um, the death reveal isbrilliant and it's a.
This is, this is one of thosethings where it's a directing
choice and it's a writing choicethat amplifies the moment.
Because so easily, so easilyyou could any other, any lesser
writer or any lesser show wouldhave had lilia just flat out say
rio is death.
And you it would have been, itwould have been neat.
But for that moment to be herdoing flipping all the tarots

(01:00:34):
over, and then it flashes backand you hear aubrey off screen.
In the end, all roads lead tome and you're like home boy.
And then she goes, rio is cutto the card flipping, and then
that it's a great, it's a greatscore, by the way, that death,
that boom, boom, boom and you'relike and practical costume for

(01:01:03):
aubrey in her death form, withthe like, the half skull face
and the.
It's a great reveal.
It's a great reveal.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Um, it's a properly scary character I love aubrey
plaza in the scare, as thischaracter too, because she's
like she's so mundane aubreyplaza is I think that's why it
works so well, because she'sproperly like always, tonally,
this almost the same, like shedoesn't have like peaks or
valleys when she's talking,except when she's not Unless,
when she's not Unless when she'sprovoked to.

(01:01:34):
And I think it plays, because Ithink the big reveal that comes
from episode nine, which is soI love the structure, how they
flip it.
That's what I told you about.
The biggest thing that thisshow does is eight, and nine
Takes that whole thing fromWandaVision, where everybody's
like I remember everybody lovedepisode 8.
It was.
We're finally learning all theanswers in episode 9.
Oh no, you did a punchy finale.

(01:01:56):
Yeah, it's a superhero thing.
Of course they did a punchyfinale.
So Jack Shaver's like and we'redoing again.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
She directly confronts it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
When you have that shot of the citizens of westview
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
being like is it happening again?
Like that's a direct, that's adirect, it's a funny bit, like
it's a funny moment, but it'salso a direct confrontation of
wandavision right.
Being like, oh, we're doingthis again, like a big dark
circle swirling into witchesfighting each other.
Like we're doing this again.
And then it becomes more thanthat, right, and that's what I
love about it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Because Wanda dies.
I meant to say Agatha.
I had Wanda on the brain.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Agatha dies, agatha is killed.
Well, she takes death's powerand they put that, they put that
gun right in episode, right inepisode two, I'm not mistaken.
Like or episode one, like, ohno, it was two.
Yeah, hey, you can, you can doit to me.
Go ahead, you're, but you knowyou're gonna die from this,
right.
And she's like yeah, there's aliteral kiss of death.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Which poetry?
Um, it's like poetry, they rock.
And it's a literal kiss ofdeath that kills Agatha.
I love and again I love, andit's it's the King.
It's the Kang versus Ant-Manthing where you're like how can
Ant-Man conceivably beat Kang?
And then he does, and quantummania suffers for that.
You get to this and you're likehow can she beat death?

(01:03:22):
And you can't.
Agatha even says it to wiccan,like even the two of us together
can't beat her like this.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
That's the death, death with a capital d like, and
and jen substantiates it sowell too because she kind of
says like no, no, she's not,she's not evil, she has feeling.
And she has feelings for agathabecause she used to be a witch
at some point.
But but she's the originalgreen witch.
That's why she holds a knifeand a flower.
This is just the circle of life.

(01:03:53):
She's just the end piece ofthis entire thing.
That's all she is.
She's not this overtly evilpiece, unfeeling monster,
exactly.
And that's why Aubrey Plaza isperfect.
Because Aubrey Plaza isperfectly just.
She's always even-keeled,kiltered, like monotone, like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
That's exactly how aubrey plaza is and she borrowed
.
You know, obviously I Iwouldn't be able to say for sure
whether the, the game andversion of death, came before
the marvel version of death, butat least in that instance where
where this version of death,the aubrey version of death,
goes to collect alice, there iselements of like that, that game
in sandman death, where shekind of gives alice like a

(01:04:34):
minute.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Yeah and also she's just like and again, this is
where aubrey plaza comes intothe equation she's just like you
know she plays it for like ariddle, almost.
It's just like you know yousaid you died.
Your protection was like youdied protecting.
She's like how could I?

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
dead like well, because alice says like I had so
much more I wanted to do andalice and other than death is
like what else was there?
Like you died doing what yourpurpose was.
Like you broke your family'scurse, you found out what
happened to your mom and youdied protecting someone.
She's like, yeah, it's timeright, and I love that
realization.
It it's literally like aversion of that sandman scene

(01:05:09):
where the guy is dead and he'slooking down on his body.
He's like, ah, shit, yeah.
Like alice kind of has thatsame realization, like she
thinks.
She's kind of like she's like Igot away, I got away with it.
And then she looks down and shesees her body and she's like,
ah, shit, and.
And then death shows up andshe's like time to go like.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
The only finicky rule like lore piece that didn't
sell me was the billyreincarnation thing.
That's the only.
That's the only piece that liketripped me a bit on my on my
marathon run like her.
The ideology of like if youcan't do it like why not yeah,
because why couldn't you just goget that billy again, like,
aren't you all powerful to thepoint where you would know you?

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
think that.
Do you think there's part of itthat she just wanted to stick
it to agatha?

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
no, I think it's more of how powerful that wanda, so
subsequently, billy is likethey're the only beings that
would ever supersede death,would, and I think they're going
to play into that a little bittoo, for this wand of movie that
inevitably is going to have tocome, yeah, um, I think they're
going to play into that.
Like that want the scarlet,which is the only being that can

(01:06:15):
supersede death itself.
Like you were powerful enoughto create life.
Like what, what more do youwant out of death?
Of like like we can't defeatdeath.
Like you know I can't, but shecan, she can like, yeah, that's
the only thing that makes senseto me of why she can't, because
you know billy will just keeplike, his consciousness will
just keep jumping from body tobody.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
But doesn't she say that someone says as much that
you could.

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
Just you're just gonna come back again like and
well, that's where my confusionis, like, well, why can't she
just keep waiting like it's not,like she has a time limit,
she's death.
Yeah, maybe, I mean maybe, likethe line that lost me is like
because you'll look, becauseagatha's like you'll lose him,
why, like, just go get him again.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Well, I guess it's a sense, I guess it's because
death that's her whole thing islike she can't take them, like
she can't, she can't take anyone, like she can't kill anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Maybe because it's reincarnation baby.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
That's why she needed Agatha specifically to kill him
, to suck him dry, take hispowers and then kill him so that
he's just mortal.
Basically, at that point shetakes all his powers and he dies
.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
There's no way for him to reincarnate because the
the, the juice is gone, so thendeath can just collect him I
loved a little bit in episodeeight where she cuts the, cuts
the rope and just walks throughlike this paper.
Yeah, she cuts through the setbecause it's fake.
Yeah, she cuts through the set.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Um, there's, yeah, there's so much there, but that
the death stuff, that is justlike, again, it's a reveal
that's very satisfying and, like, the great part about the
reveal was like nobody wasasking, like, where's thanos?
Like nobody cares, right, um,except for all the people who
are like I kind of see, I get itand I love that Agatha dies

(01:08:12):
again, like as a.
Obviously she won't admit shesacrificed herself for, really,
but there was part of it, thatwas true, but also it was an F
you to her, to Rio, because thelast thing that Agatha says to
her is the moment I die, when Idie, I don't want to see your
face.
So how does agatha go out?
She dies and she becomes aghost.

(01:08:34):
Yep, because rio can't collecther, and I think that's awesome
and she's just like I.
I can't believe this worked.
Like, what is rio?
What does agatha say in episodefour?
Or, yeah, what does rio say inepisode four?
I?
hate ghosts agatha became theone thing that she can't stand.
Yep and bonus.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
We got ghost agatha yep, I can't believe your ghost
agatha from marvel.
I can't believe we got thereand, like katherine han's,
probably gonna stay there likeas most agatha, permanently.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Yes as just a annoyance for eternity first.
First an annoyance to Wiccanand then, most likely, an
annoyance to the Scarlet Witch,yep.
They gave her the gray hair,the purple costume.
I couldn't believe it.
That was the biggest reveal.
I was like, wait, they'reactually doing ghost acting and

(01:09:24):
it looked good.
Yeah, I was floored.
I was like I can't believe thatthis stupid show just went full
comics on us.
I couldn't believe it and didso in just like convincing.
Now I want to see Vision Quest.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Yes, what I never thought those.
My stupid nerd brain was likewell, you know, james spader's
gonna be in vision quest 2.
Like I was like, wait a minute,this show could be, could be
something so what happens now?

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
let's go find your brother.
I'm like I need another seasonnow, right?

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
give me the next season now, give me the, give me
the third part of this trilogy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Like hold, like wait I'm in no, don't leave me now,
come back, agatha, I need moreof that, like holy crap, man.
And then I mean, the only otherthing I want to touch upon is
obviously that scene where shecomes to take the sun.
Yeah, let's dive into episodenine, because boy, whole boy,

(01:10:29):
yeah, because you watch episode8 and you're like where else is
this going to go?

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
I thought the same thing I was just like is episode
9 going to be an extended postcredit scene?
Like, where do we?
We did the punchy finale.
What more do you want?
And Jack Shaver's like be anadult, grow up how about a
flashback?

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
and you finally get, and you finally get.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
She inverted her own writing from WandaVision to do
this, to invert episode 8 and 9.
It was insane.
We get the final buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
The final thing, the final mystery around Agatha is
her son, dating back toWandaVision.
You don't know what's up withher son.
And you finally get it, andit's heartbreaking.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Yep.
So Agatha's son was supposed todie at childbirth, seemingly.
Yep, ryo shows up and becauseRyo loves Agatha, she's an
exception.
She's like I'll give you alittle bit of time Come on Sean.
But when I come back, I'mcoming to collect, you don't?

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
get a second chance.
She did the Mandarin from Ironman 2.
You'll never see me coming andshe didn't?
She was sleeping.
How do you read that that shetook him while Agatha was asleep
, to make it easier on both ofthem?

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
I do think she loves Agatha.
I really I truthfully thinkthat this is the only person
that death has ever.
And what a person for death tolove Thanos somewhere.
My brother's Harry Styles whatan insane pairing.
I love canonically that in themcu that josh brolin and harry

(01:11:58):
styles are brothers.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
Yeah, it's the best thing ever smile, thanos, I am
smiling, I am smiling, I I needstarfox thanos adventures plot
twist.
Thanos is the funny one, yeah,he is the funny one.
Thanos is the funny one, yeah,he is the funny one.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
Star Fox is the weird one.
Should have sold you from a boxof parts.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Damn that was crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
He said that to his own daughter.
Yeah, that was nuts that headopted jerk.
Even Death was like ooh.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
Yikes.
But yeah, ryo comes or Ryo goesaway, away.
Agatha's like I need more timeand rio's like I'll give you
time, but who knows how, whenthat'll be.
And then the the cogs start onturning.
Nicky's whistling a tune andagatha's like what's that tune?
You got there, nick.
And he's like I don't know, Imade it up and he's like hmm, I

(01:12:46):
could also make this Down thewindy road.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
So good stuff.
And then a witch shows up, yeah, which is like, hey, howdy,
howdy, you guys need help.
And she's just like, yep, whatif we murdered?
What if I murdered all you guys, cause I love power?
And she was like, well, that'squite rude, that's, that's quite
rude.
How rude, how rude.
What are the Nikki?

(01:13:12):
What's Nikki and Alex up tothese days from full house?
I gotta be pushing 40 by thistime.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Absolutely Um.
And then we get this um, weflash forward, and now Nikki is
in on the con.
He's like mom, I don't, why dowe kill witches?
Yeah, and I was like what.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
There's no catch, like they just do this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
She's like I need that power yeah, she doesn't
even give him a good reason.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
No, she's just like I'm or what does she say?
If we don't do it to them,they'll do it to us, and no,
they won't, and she's just likeyou gotta you know this is
survival of the fittest killer.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
Be killed yeah it's literally killer be killed,
right, but like, no, they won't,but anyway, that's besides.
Well, it's because she'sgaslighting her son, um, but I
mean, she loves him, that'snever in doubt, but she's a
lunatic and a sociopath, but sheloves her son, right.
So then they fall asleep in thewoods and then rio shows up

(01:14:06):
again and she's again verygently, kind of like, gives him
one of these like, and he, butshe does make sure to tell him
to kiss agatha before they go,and agatha wakes up and her son
is gone rio's aubrey plaza.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
Slash rio, slash death.
They're like properly haunting.
She just stands there and I'mlike I get like she's just
standing there menacingly.
I'm like get chills.
I'm like, oh, get away.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Yeah, but there's also like a, an elegance to her.
Yeah, there's a peace thatcomes with it and especially
like in that form, when she haslike the green dress and she's
like she has the torch and shejust kind of like gives him like
the get over here, mm-hmm.
Um, and he goes and then, likeyou, kind of you get why
Agatha's mad?
Mm-hmm, because, like youdidn't, but Rio treats Agatha

(01:14:57):
the way that she treats anyoneelse, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Like you don't get to choose when you say goodbye
right, you're lucky I loved you.
To give you some time yeah,like I gave you six years.
She probably broke like someabsolute.
Oh, I wonder if they'll everpay that off like that death
broke some, like absolute cosmicrule.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
Well, I think that's also partially to like.
Going back to your point aboutbilly, why she's so mad.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
Yeah, about billy, right like reincarnation's got
to be like the thing she hatesthem.
Like, yeah, you're not allowedto come back, like that doesn't
work that way.
Yeah, and like I said, what'smore powerful than death and
extended and prolonged life thatthe scarlet witch is able to
create?
And they, they make and Iwonder if that was intentional
from jack to make sure they saythat line.
And and I don't know if theypaid off in wandavision and if

(01:15:43):
it was multiverse of madness.
Like you know she's, she hasthe ability to.
The scarlet witch has theability to.
Oh no, they say it inwandavision.
Uh, agatha says it at the inthe finale, like the scarlet
witch capable of creating life,and like she's in they even say
it in the 80s episode.
Like you know, you're able tolike bring sparky back.
You know you're able to raisethe.
Bring Sparky back.
You know you're able to raisethe dead and Agatha's the one

(01:16:03):
who goes.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
You can do that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
You can do that and like she's like ooh, you might
be important to get my son backfrom Rio.
Like you might be the one thatI need, or I can just take your
power from you and I don't evenneed you to do this.
Ooh, jack, you might be cookingon some long form stuff there.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
And then her son dies and you think, oh, this is like
she's gonna make a turn here.
Nope, she creates the witch'sroad and she just siphons the
life force.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
What a sick, sadistic thing that she's just like.
Well, I'm gonna keep getting mypower.
This is my homage to my son tokeep getting power and keep
killing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
And circling all the way back around.
She was just going to do thatto the characters in the show
Until an unforeseen circumstancecame along.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
Billy Maximoff came along and said and created the
road Because he can create life.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
Because he needed the road to find his brother.
Yep, and you find out.
Agatha knew that the entiretime that he did it.
She knew that from thebeginning and it was all his
fault.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
And oh that little, that little yell that she gives
him in the beginning on episodeeight of like you know, if you
don't know, then shut up likeyou don't, like she knew, she
knows like she, she knows, likehe's making this up.
He doesn't even know he'smaking this up as he goes Until
he.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
I love that realization, when he starts
looking around his room and he'slike, ah crap, I did this,
didn't I?
And then I love that they dovebriefly at the end of.
Well, not even briefly.
It feels like it is going to bekind of like part of his
character going forward that hemakes that realization that
because he did what he did, hegot lilia and sharon and alice

(01:17:52):
killed yep.
He did that, yep, because theroad was never real right and
then, but the realization thatagatha gives him is you also
helped.

Speaker 1 (01:18:02):
Jen Right, she's like you know, you lost three, but
you got one.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Again her own Agatha way.
She tries to make him feelbetter about that and I love
their dynamic at the end of theshow when he's like when she
goes you know I'd never havegotten along with my fellow
witches Like I'm a witch killerand he goes.
So am I.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
And you're like, oh wonder if they're gonna play it
off.
If he's a witch killer, maybehe turns into the witch killer
to try to kill his own mother,which he eventually comes back
and then we get, like I said, weget Ghost Agatha and just
outstanding.
I can't wait, I can't wait tosee this stupid freaking thing
continue they got me I mean youlast remarks like I owe this

(01:18:45):
show the biggest Publicly.
I owe this show the biggest youcan go back to.

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
I think we've been doing this podcast long enough
where you can go back to ustalking about this show.
When it was incepted and wewere like why, I'm actually
probably going to go back andlisten to the older ones and
just be like what were ourthoughts on this?
Because I don't think any of itwas ever like I can't wait for
this, until like the firsttrailer, when they were like and
we were like Wait a second, huh, huh, wait a minute.

(01:19:10):
And then there was like thewhole like title switching and
like it felt like the show waslike didn't know what it was
trying to be title switchingthing was also part of the
marketing right and you're likeshe, jack, is just smarter than
us.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
Yeah, she is, she is, she's, I think in her career
like going forward, she's gonnaturn into like one of the more
notable writers in hollywood,like somebody that people try to
get.
I want to see if she wants, ifshe's ever gonna, she will
eventually like do somethingoutside of marvel.
Like I'm really keen to seewhatever that would be too.
I think she's really I mean,it's clear she has an affinity
for this.
These characters give her justgive her this like do something
outside of Marvel.
Like I'm really keen to seewhatever that would be too.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
I think she's really, I mean, it's clear she has an
affinity for this, thesecharacters.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
Give her, just give her this sect of the like.
If James Gunn is like the onethat you run through for all the
space stuff in the MCU, likegive her all the mystical stuff
in the.
Give her everything.
Like let her spearheadeverything down there, the
Midnight Suns, werewolf by Nightsequel, like whatever you're
going to do down there, give itto her.
Let her kind of like spearheadthat flagship, that piece, even

(01:20:08):
if that dips into the DoctorStrange stuff, because I think
we talked about it.
Like just let her write thenext Doctor Strange movie so
that at least because the DoctorStrange 3 is going to run into
the problem of we need to makesense and fast track for you
knowtrack for Secret Wars.
So if that's going to be thecase, at least let her be the
one to try to contextualize youknow what she's probably also

(01:20:28):
going to do Probably fix theerror of Doctor Strange's
character from Multiverse ofMadness, to be like you're going
to learn something for once.
This time You're actually goingto change a bit as a character.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
Yeah, it's clear that she has an affinity for these
characters and I agree with you.
I think she absolutely haswarranted a little bit more
stake in the game, right, interms of the mystical side.
She clearly understands thesecharacters.
She clearly understands Wanda,she clearly understands Agatha,
she clearly understands Wiccan.

Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
The most important one is that she understands
Wanda.
That's the most important onethat they need to get back to.

Speaker 2 (01:21:04):
So I can't imagine a world.
I mean, and poor Lizzie Olsenjust going to the Andrew
Garfield school of I don't knowwhat you're talking about kind
of basically let it slip whenshe was, like I think someone
directly asked her on a panel orsomething.
She was like is Wanda evercoming back?
She's like I can't tell you,but I don't know.
Yeah, come on.

(01:21:25):
Yeah, for such a great actress,not great.
So I mean, the worst keptsecret in Marveldom is that
Wanda's eventually coming backand, to the point that I made, I
don't know, years ago, at thispoint she's due to be like the
main character of, of whateverthey're trying to do yeah makes

(01:21:46):
the most sense.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
Like put her around everything, like comics wise.
You think about it like houseof m was kind of you know she
was the central piece of that.
Like do the same thing but justturn it more of like a heroic
version of it and then pivot ittowards secret wars.
Like what a triumphant returnthat she can have to come back
against Dr Dool.
Like you think about the personthat lost everything.

(01:22:08):
Like that's Wanda.
Like she is, she can be, shecan truthfully be the savior of
the MCU.
And like, again, if you'regoing to do the comic thing,
like to pick the character, haveher be the one to reset the
entire multiverse back to, backto square one, back to square
one, back to phase one.
Put the mutants back into themain timeline.
Put the Fantastic Four backinto the main timeline.

(01:22:28):
Switch some things up.
So like Anthony Mackie's beenCaptain America for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
Give Hearn Hiddleston a little room to cook together.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
He's gotta come back because whatever and you gotta
get back to your Infinity Warendgame, Thor, and that's why I
think that's important that theRusso's are there, because I
think that Chris Hemsworth isgonna be important to that too.
The scene where they reunitewith each other and I told you,
I told you that the sun wouldrise on us again I told you
that's gonna mean something.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
Yeah, I'm all for giving Jack Schafer whatever she
wants on the side of the MarvelUniverse Because, like I said,
she's just smarter than us.
She put the show together andeverything paid off.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
It's rare to say something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
Especially for these Marvel, disney Plus shows.
How many times do you leave afinale feeling a little deflated
about one thing or another?
Every character got somethingby the end of the show.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
And to counter my point about Alice being maybe
the most underdeveloped, it'svery important that Rio was
there to show up to take her.
Of all of them, that was themost important thing they could
have done.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
Yeah, every character got something and that's
ultimately.
We talk about this all the timewith, like the character driven
stuff.
We talked about it with Joker,like what was the ultimate
shortcoming of that movie.
It was like the charactersdidn't go anywhere and I didn't
really care.
Right, this show, I cared.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
We didn't even talk about episode six.
Like the William Caplan originstory episode, we didn't talk
about that.
We didn't talk about the scenewhere Tommy gets a body and
Tommy's out there somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:23:59):
Agatha did I just kill a boy so that my brother
could live Agatha's like maybe Idon't care.
He's back, isn't he?
I mean, I guess, before we dosome awards, we can kind of just
speculate on the futures ofsome of these characters.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
Vision Quest is going to be a combination of,
obviously, tom King's Vision runand the beginning of the Young
Avengers run, the core YoungAvengers run.
It's going to be kind of acombination of that, maybe some
Age of Ultron sprinkled in there, some like dream sequence Age
of Ultron.
It's going to be basically likeVision you have a heart, this
is your life, this is your life.

(01:24:37):
Vision you have a heart, I amVision.
Which Vision?
I request a liberation.
So, which vision I request aliberation.
Um, so I'd imagine wiccan willshow up in that as well.
Yeah, um, I'm adding jackschaefer to the project infinite
whiteboard I love that she'sthe first writer to go up on the
board.
Um.
Would we see agatha in visionquest?

(01:24:57):
I don't think it's a.
I don't think there's any doubt, especially after the show,
that that you're you're itchingto get katherine han back any
way.
That you can just like joe lock, like it.
You don't just be like, yeah,you guys can hang out.
No, no, they're getting both ofthem back.
Um jen midnight suns, that'd befun.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):
Get a potions witch in there too because nerd, nerd,
nerd marveldom jennifer kale isthe cousin of johnny blaze.
That'd be fun, that'd be realfun.
So you can use her as kind of aconduit to ghost rider.
That would be kind of fun got acousin, that's that's.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
He's kind of a hothead.
That's why they don't let mewrite yes, yeah, I'd immediately
put that line in there.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
She would have said that episode.
She would have said that inepisode nine.
Yeah, and then the lincoln parktheme would have started
playing um, I guess the mostinteresting one is when do we
think we're gonna see ari plazaagain?

Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
I would maybe just make her the villain of whatever
this agatha agatha show,whatever this wand of movie
would be, like the like, thefallout of whatever this trilogy
is, like the movie to thetrilogy.
I would just make her maybe herand Mavisto the main pieces of
that, because it seems likethat's what they're.
We still haven't gotten him.
We said his name, we did sayhis name we do not say his name,

(01:26:15):
tell Mr Fist, tell Mr Fist.
And he immediately got his headbashed in.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
Tell Mr Fisto, tell Mr F got his head bashed in,
remember mr fisto tell miss tellmr fisto yeah, conspicuous by
his absence.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
Mr mephisto, um, we're getting there yeah, it's
hard to put mephisto in becauseof foreign audiences too.
It's hard because he's thedevil Right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:44):
Are we going to see Ralph Boner ever?

Speaker 1 (01:26:45):
again.
Well, in Wonder man I believethat he's supposed to be in.
That could be fun.
He cooked a bit.
Oh, evan Peters comes back.
He did cook and he cooked.
I like tortured Ralph Boner.
It's the best, it makes themost sense.
And again it's Jack Schlaferbeing like no, no, no, you know

(01:27:08):
you're gonna be a crazy loonthat just had a witch possess
his body like this makesabsolute sense.

Speaker 2 (01:27:10):
Whatever happened to character progression?
That actually made sense.
Jack shivers said I got youguys.
God, really really good.
Man really enjoyed this show.
I can't believe I'm saying that, you know, now that it's over.
I'm just like and maybe youknow you could say, was it as
good as we're making it sound,or were our expectations too low
?
No, I think it was.
I think it was that good.
I genuinely do.
I don't think it's ourexpectations being so far

(01:27:31):
exceeded that we were floored bymediocrity.
I don't think this was mediocreat all.
From again writing design,everything it was directing,
everything was just performances.
So, yeah, let's give out someawards.
Yeah, let's do it because weskipped.
We skipped the joker becausejoker didn't deserve any awards

(01:27:52):
yeah, yeah, I don't think itever did.

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
Oh, joker, what a movie.
Um, you're gonna do best cinemamoment.

Speaker 2 (01:28:02):
Uh, do the full award set for this one Best cinema
moment I'm going to say is theLilia sequence.
The Lilia sequence.
I episode seven best cinemamoment.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
I'm going to go with the cinematic nature of episode
nine.

Speaker 2 (01:28:16):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (01:28:17):
A lot of it did feel, feel very movie esque in there
as well too, which I appreciated.
Uh, best character that doesn'tneed to be in this.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
What's his name?

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
The neighbor Herb Herb, yeah, no he needed to be
there, did he yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
So that they could do the callback to her defense.
Hey, neighbor.

Speaker 1 (01:28:39):
That's a good one who didn't need to be in this
Agatha.
Come on, You're kiddingyourself.
Um best actor to join thefranchise?
Uh, Patty LuPone, Patty LuPone.
Oh, it's Joe Locke, because ofthe future ramifications of him
being there Like hit, I think.
If you think about it this way,his work in this show fast

(01:29:01):
track that Young Avengers movie.
I agree it gave all thesecharacters like where was Cassie
Lang going to get reintroduced?
Kate Bishop, Kamala Khan.

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
Who's playing Cassie Lang?

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
It'll be Catherine Nguyen.
But still to my point, theyprobably felt a bit of limbo.
If you really want to get intoit.
Joe Locke kind of got them backon track to where they were
supposed to go yeah, cause Ithink people were kind of
cooling off on the younger thing.
And that immediately, like itwas like that classic, like
prime MCU thought process oflike, okay, now, like
everybody's like, go read thisyoung Avengers book.

(01:29:35):
Like you need to read thisimmediately.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Best car bit um her driving inepisode one the fake, the fake
car, the fake.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
I'm gonna go the fake car when she goes.
Well, that's kind of what itleads into, is my point of like
oh, we didn't even talk aboutthat bit.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
No, we didn't really freaking.
Episode one inversion episodein episode, was episode six.
Right is the wicked backstory,right when you see the events of
episode one from hisperspective?
Because and you see howfucking- trapped.

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
She was because think about the whole hex.
But it's just in agatha's mindnow.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
It's not even like projected outward, it's well,
you see, like the damage thatwanda did to her and not just to
her, the whole community.

Speaker 1 (01:30:13):
They're afraid like we don't say her name.
Oh, and it's so crazy becauselike her house is like that
house from like yourneighborhood, that's like
haunted.
Like her house is actually thehaunted house that spits on it
she spits on the plot when shewalks by.

Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
Yep, um, yeah, like when she's like, and this is not
a car best side character uh,it's lily yeah she's incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:30:38):
Am I wispy or am I kooky?

Speaker 2 (01:30:39):
but you could have you could, I could realistically
pick any of them.
Yeah for that, jen alice, butlilia.
Obviously she gets the biggroundswell moment in episode
seven um best send-off.

Speaker 1 (01:30:50):
It's lilia.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
It's lilia again.
Yeah, I mean, that's the bestend off for any character you
can, even in the history ofsend-offs uh, saddest moment.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
I'll remix mine to jen finding out that agatha was
the one that bound her.
That was properly like shazir,shazir zameda being like no, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna act now.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
You have no power.
You have no power over me.
You have no power over me.
It's good, um, it's not, maybenot the saddest moment, but it
is that when rio comes tocollect alice again, it like
gave me that, that vibe, thesame vibe that the salmon
episode gave me, like it's justsomething about death.
When it's portrayed that way inmedia just gets me of like this

(01:31:34):
, like calm, like inevitability.
That just really kind of getsme and like the character
realizing like, ah shit, likeI'm dead, like you know what I
mean, and like you know her justgiving alice like that time,
and like they kind of just likewalk away together.
I'm just like you know thattype of that, that that type of
scene always, always gets mebest relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):
Um, I'm gonna say agatha and wicked, I'm gonna say
wanda and agatha, because she,she is always present, she never
leaves her mind rent free andagatha's mind will be will be
wanda and agatha, because she,she is always present, she never
leaves her mind rent free.
And agatha's mind will be willbe wanda maximoff you're so much
like your mother you just wantto see the crown um most

(01:32:16):
underrated character, uh mostunderrated character.
Is it Alice?

Speaker 2 (01:32:23):
I was going to say, yeah, probably Alice.
Yeah, yeah, it's probably Alice, just because she gets the
least to do but also maximizesthe most of it.
Mm-hmm, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:32:34):
Mm-hmm, you're a protection witch.
You died protecting everyone.
What more is there?
You want Best, most heroicmoment.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
Um, this is just Lillia again Lillia taking out
the Salem Seven.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
We gotta talk about the Salem Seven, because guess
who they are exactly like fromStar Wars, the Knights of Ren.
They are actually the Knightsof Ren.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Another great bait and switch by Jack Schaefer.
Yeah, you think the Salem Sevenare a big deal.
No, they're getting murked.
Tower tower reversed bitch.
Yeah, that's what she shouldhave said, if I was writing the
show, that's what the line wouldhave been.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
No, mine would have been boom, you're looking for
this, and then don cheadlesomehow would have been a main
character again in this show.
Mine would have been lilysaying tower reversed bitch then
they got impaled on a ceilingof swords.
That was great, Because you'rethinking too.
You're like, oh, they're goingto come back.
And then they did it.
They were murdered.
They were brutally murdered byLillian.
That time traveling witchkilled the Salem Seven.

(01:33:39):
Favorite cameo it's Ralph.

Speaker 2 (01:33:41):
Boner, that was incredible, best set.

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
The best set the Road .
The Road is quaint.
The Road the main like we'llremix that one.
What's your favorite trial um?

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
I liked the.

Speaker 1 (01:33:54):
I I liked the the 80s Ouija board trial it's good
stuff paid a lot of homage tomovies, things like that.
I thought that was pretty cool,I don't know why that I really
I felt the most can.
For some weird reason it wasthe episode eight trial, because
this was like the ramp to getinto your finale was the episode

(01:34:15):
eight trial of like.
And then you know, jen foundingup and finding out that Agatha
was the one that that bound her.
Yeah, yeah, the modernisticnature of like.
You know, I'm in a morgue andlike this is it Like we're close
to the end, like you can feelhow close to the final piece,
but there was a puzzle piecethat was missing.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
Yeah, that's a great.
Yeah, that's a great pick Best1v1?
.
I mean, the Agatha Rio showdownis pretty good.
Yeah, I mean, the Agatha Rioshowdown is pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:34:43):
Yeah, I don't think there's any.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
And it's cool this whole time you're kind of not
rooting.
You're not really rooting forAgatha, but when she gets her
powers back and she's fullyAgatha'd up, you're like yes.
I'm thinking I'm back.
I like that her costume comeswith her powers.
Yeah, yep, she got her powersback and all of a sudden, the
big purple dress is back.
She's basically Thor.

(01:35:07):
At that point there is a Thorelement.
How did he braid his?

Speaker 1 (01:35:10):
beard.
Nope, nope don't ask questions.
Best heat check performance,it's Patti LuPone.

Speaker 2 (01:35:16):
Does she qualify for a heat check?

Speaker 1 (01:35:19):
Yeah, she's like if you were in a game, an nba game,
and like you had a solid like15 going into the fourth, but
then you like that's a, you'resolid like prime for like a 25
point game.
Billy's parents they're good,they're really good.

Speaker 2 (01:35:32):
That episode's really like sad it is really sad,
properly sad, because, likethese parents get their son back
but don't realize that they'renot his son, not their son and
he's such a good person thathe'll never say anything.
He said I still don't know whothey are but they're my parents,
but they're my parents like Ihave a mom, is what he says to
agatha, and you're just like oh,hey, I like that funniest

(01:35:54):
moment oh, that's the teenager.
Damn, use his full name.
That got quite a chuckle out ofme.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:05):
That's such a smart line I think it's agatha, as
kate winslet of the mayor ofeast town is her over, like her
over-exaggerated accent yep, andjust her being the detective,
the streaming detective, because, like I said, I think it's so
smart if that was the last pieceof television we didn't click
into from total loser or totallylying?

Speaker 2 (01:36:30):
Let's find out.

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
I think we found her by the water.
When he said water, I couldn'tbelieve it.
He said we found her by thewater.
What did he say?
Best exposition dump?
Uh, I think it's one.
It was probably theconversation between Agathon and
Rio in episode eight, Becausethat gave the most like.
This is we're getting there.

(01:36:54):
I liked.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
See, it's funny.
I might go back to episodeseven.
The out-of-sequence expositiondump that Lily is trying to give
to Jen is pretty good, she'slike.

Speaker 1 (01:37:04):
you already told me that's where we're going.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
This is the next trial.
The son of the Scarlet Witchsent us down here.
She's like he's the son of theScarlet Witch.
Yeah, you told me.

Speaker 1 (01:37:15):
You told me Best source material callback Wiccan
Ghost Agatha.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
Ghost Agatha's pretty good.
Ghost Agatha's pretty good.
Ghost Agatha's good.
That Wiccan costume is great.
Yeah, did you see like thebehind the scenes Of how the
cape is put together?
Right, it's like Elements ofWanda's cape and then elements
of Vision's cape On the inside,right?
I'm like that's cool, that iscool.
Is he cool?

Speaker 1 (01:37:38):
Yeah, he's cool, I'm Jack.
He said I'm Joe Locke, y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
Only Wiccan can make a bodysuit look cool with just a
cape Right, it's just a treeman.
But it's just Ghost Agatha thatgot me.
I was like Ghost Agatha.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
Hell yeah, is it?
The road itself is the bestsource material callback it's
like was Wizard of Ozzy.
Well, that was the point.
Agatha was the Wizard of Oz.
I think Jack Schafer kind oftalked about that too.
That was one of the main, ifnot the main, inspiration for

(01:38:13):
this show and it was a con itwas Agatha all along.
What?

Speaker 2 (01:38:18):
was the next one best NPC what's his name?
The mustache when he's likepeeking at Agatha and like Best
NPC.
What's his name?
The mustache, when he's peekingat Agatha and she hits him.
Emma Caulfield came back again.
Remember when they thought shewas Mephisto In WandaVision.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
Well, it's not that true.
They thought she was Clea.
Me too I did.
She's just Dottie.
It's just a tree man.
It's just dotty.
She's just dotty.
It's just a tree.
It's just a tree.

Speaker 2 (01:38:46):
Um favorite action sequence uh action sequence huh
shows doesn't have a lot ofaction sequences, no, doesn't
need them.
I like the.
I did like the little standoffwith the, with the ghost
agatha's mom.
Yeah, that's where you see.
See like Rio rock up for thefirst time.

Speaker 1 (01:39:06):
Oh my God, thinking long form about that Like it's a
combination of our hatred forit's, like it's hating your,
your, your girlfriend's mean mom.
Yeah, that won't accept you.
Mix with you.
Just hating ghosts in general.

Speaker 2 (01:39:18):
Cause you're like you're deaf, so like that's
another double meaning behind it.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:39:24):
That was good.
That's good.
Best song 3, 2, 1, the Balladof the Witch's Robe.
Which version.

Speaker 2 (01:39:30):
I like the creepy Catherine Han solo version in
episode 9, where she's singingit across time.

Speaker 1 (01:39:38):
Favorite musical moment.
It's maybe all of them comingtogether to take off that
horrifying demon that was afterthe band, yeah, the band moment,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:39:47):
Favorite line oh man, that's a good one um, wait,
you're looking for tobycatherine on man.
She's so good.
Um, I, it's a.
Um, what do you?
Uh?
Why do you let them say oh, orwhat she says?

(01:40:08):
The real when she says thetruth is too awful.
You're like oof but also pattylapone.
I loved being a witch.
Like that moment.
Yeah, it hits you.
Hits you with like a ton ofbricks, I think mine's gonna to
be.

Speaker 1 (01:40:22):
You are just like your mother, who Favorite world
building or lore moment.
Let's go find your brother.

Speaker 2 (01:40:35):
I think it's the Honestly.
I think it's the insertion ofdeath into the MCU.

Speaker 1 (01:40:39):
Yeah, that's big time , that's big time Favorite shot.
It'sty falling at the beginningand subsequently end of that
episode is quite incredible yeahI would agree with that
favorite performance three, two,one, catherine, it's not hard
sometimes but just a showlittered with tremendous
performances.

Speaker 2 (01:40:59):
Favorite character, um agatha I.
I think that character wasuniquely interesting in
WandaVision and became even moreinteresting in the show Right,
because she's not a good.

Speaker 1 (01:41:13):
Last one there is a nice person.
I can't believe that Jack hadthe confidence to be like no
she's and to end the show onthat note.

Speaker 2 (01:41:20):
No, it's like she's the reinforcement of what she
did and like she's fun.

Speaker 1 (01:41:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:41:28):
But she's not.
She's not a nice person, no.

Speaker 1 (01:41:32):
It's going to be the teen slash, william Kaplan slash
, most importantly for the nerds, billy Maximoff.

Speaker 2 (01:41:37):
I'm not that nice.
I'm not that nice.

Speaker 1 (01:41:40):
Favorite moment.

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):
Man show has so many good ones.
I think it's the tarot cardreading it's it gives me chill,
like I just got goosebumps whenyou just said that it's the
score ramping up, it's therealization.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
It's also what?
What a way to put the reveal ofdeath into there, to sneak it
in there too, because thatreveal in of itself is not too
much shock factor alone, but toput it in that stake moment like
that really amplifies it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:09):
That's what works, and I love just the again that I
can't believe when that episodetethers and weaves together and
you, like you're, you'rewatching it happen.
You're watching those momentstether together and you're
watching them.
You're watching lily or revisitmoments that we have already
seen in the show and they'reweaving together.
It's surreal to watch.

(01:42:30):
It's like you're having anout-of-body experience.
You're like you, you're waiting.
You're waiting because this ishow our brains work, not just
our brains, but any brains.
You're waiting for the, for theplot hole, right?
You're waiting for this verycomplex, convoluted scene to
fall apart and go aha, thatdoesn't make sense, but it all
weaves together seamlessly.

(01:42:50):
Yep, it's quite incredible,giving you know, all the members
of each member of the covengetting attributed their own
tarot to the moment, like yousaid, the death reveal to Lily,
are really believing it and likewhen she's about to.
I mean, they're about to leaveand lilia you know, jen's like
I'm not going before you andlilia goes.

Speaker 1 (01:43:09):
You're the path ahead , jennifer like I was like damn,
I really love being a witch,and it's also to end the episode
on her finally going to sitdown, knowing, because her, her
brain or her power doesn't workin a in a linear like that was
the most linear that she wasever going to get is finally
paying off back to her life as acircle.

(01:43:29):
So she's like Dr Manhattan sheonly sees things as everything
Her.
She just has confusion behindhers, but she finally figured it
out.

Speaker 2 (01:43:37):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:43:38):
How sweet.
And that's Agatha all along.

Speaker 2 (01:43:43):
Yeah, I mean, mean, I'm just, I was stunned.
I was stunned week in and weekout, being like this show is
incredible, um, just a great job.
Great job all around.
Keep doing this.
Great job, jack.
Keep doing these things.
Keep doing stuff like thisMarvel not the witchy stuff the
witchy stuff is great, but justlike good television.

(01:44:03):
Good tell, do good television,not the witchy stuff the witchy
stuff is great, but just likeGood television, good tele, do
good television.

Speaker 1 (01:44:06):
Do good television, good to television, with good
characters and good writing.
Nine episode minimum.

Speaker 2 (01:44:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:44:12):
That was my spiel.
Nine episode minimum.

Speaker 2 (01:44:14):
It's there, man, like it's there.
And every show that they'vedone has had elements of this
right.
Every show has had moments.
Hawkeye had moments, ms marvelhad moments, moon night had
moments.
I would say this wanda visionloki probably put it together
the most consistently right.
Um falcon lunar soldier hadmoments.

(01:44:36):
Falcon lunar soldier gets closeto being consistent, but the
the flag smasher stuff kind ofhurts it pretty badly.

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
Moon Knight is an example of getting a really
complex and interestingcharacter.
But that's the perfect exampleof when people don't know what
show.
This is across the board thatpeople's idea of what this
show's tone should be wereshifting from once it got on the
page.
People's idea of what thisshow's tone should be were
shifting from before the.
From once it got on the page.
People's idea of what the showwas like.

(01:45:07):
I guarantee you call that.
Call to Ethan Hawk and he saysyes, I guarantee you his version
of the show that he got wasprobably different from other
people's versions of the showthat they got.

Speaker 2 (01:45:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, like you said, it's,it's it, it's the buy-in across
the board, it's knowing whatkind of show you wanted to make.
And, crazy enough, it's aboutnot telling the world which kind
of show you want to make, Right, because we?

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
didn't know.
Experience it like you have toexperience it.
Be here with us.

Speaker 2 (01:45:34):
We didn't really know what the show was going to be.
Nobody knew.
Nobody knew what the show wasgoing to be.
Nobody knew what the idea was.
The only reason the Wiccan andRio stuff got out was because of
Funko.

Speaker 1 (01:45:46):
Funko, let that cat out of the bag, that it was
Wiccan and death Um and I can'tstress enough that I owe this
show the biggest apology onplanet earth Me too.

Speaker 2 (01:45:55):
The biggest of apologies.
I can admit when I'm wrong.
I did not think.
We did not think we needed thisshow.
We thought it was.
Like I said, my biggest fearfor the show was they were just
going to make it a meme and theywere like look how wacky
Catherine Han is.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
Am I wacky or am I kooky?

Speaker 2 (01:46:15):
And then they made that line emotional, like I
thought this was going to be theCatherine Han one-woman show
starring some other people, andthat's not what it was it was.
And again, like the refrain toyour point, the unabashed
confidence to say she is not agood person.
At the end of this is justshe's agatha harkness.

(01:46:38):
She doesn't need to fit intoanybody else's mode it's so rare
, especially this marvel stuff,for them to just be like this
person is bad, so they're badpeople, but we can still make
them compelling.
It's her.
Loki did this until he made histurn, thanos.
Thanos is incredibly compelling, like agatha's on that pedestal

(01:47:02):
.

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
As far as MCU villains, she just is, and
that's the point.
She is a villain.

Speaker 2 (01:47:09):
And I said it to you the other day has a casting ever
been more impactful for the MCUaside from Downey, than this
For the character?
Because Agatha Harkness waswhat D-list E what D-list,
e-list, f-list yeah, but becauseof Catherine Han, like this
character is in the zeitgeistnow, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:47:31):
Like I guarantee you, comics are going to start.
Comics already started doing it.
Agatha Harkness is like youngnow and like younger now and she
looks like Catherine Han Right,and you know, star lord went
through that like star lord.
Nick fury, nick fury famouslywent through that yep, no, she's
in midnight suns.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
Yeah, video game.
Yeah, agatha plays a prettyprominent role in that.
I still love that game.
Go play midnight suns if youhaven't played it.
It's a great, great bit ofmarvel story storytelling right
right up there.
Guardians of the galaxy oof,what I've been dying to replay
that game.

Speaker 1 (01:48:02):
What a game remember when we were playing that game
we were like wait a minute, isthis one of the best stories?
Is this movie?
Is this game cooking?
It had lore.
The lore was detailed, it wasthought out, but those
characters were so amazingcharacters, man characters drive
it, at least for us bigcharacter guys over here we are
big character guys.

Speaker 2 (01:48:23):
We love characters and character actor Alfred
Molina.
We do love Alfred Molina.
That's it.
It was Agatha all along.

Speaker 1 (01:48:35):
Damn.
Billy really made the roadhimself, just like his mama.

Speaker 2 (01:48:40):
Yep.
And she said unlike your mother, you actually did something
interesting with your powers.
Yeah, she's always got to justkick Wanda one more time, which
is great, and that's the thing.
I am looking forward to seeingthose two together again, but in
ghost form, and imagine justthe fire and fury when Wanda
sees her son that she's beenlooking for for years with

(01:49:03):
Agatha Harkness.

Speaker 1 (01:49:05):
And on top of that, what Wanda's probably going to
think is that Agatha probablytold her son like that's not
your mom, that's not your mom,even though that's his own idea,
like there's so much, there'sso much more meat on the Wanda
Maximoff bone and I've said thisbefore and I'll say it again,
like till I'm, till I'm toldotherwise or proven wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:49:27):
That is one of the most dimensional, compelling
characters that they have in themcu.

Speaker 1 (01:49:32):
That episode nine really locked that in.

Speaker 2 (01:49:35):
Wow, really locked that in wanda is the emotional
core of the mcu and to see thatcharacter again is going to be
an absolute treat, especiallythe fact that they're able to,
if they can, continue this intothe vision thing and build on
this even more, like there is areally special payoff coming

(01:49:58):
that I'm very excited for.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
I'm watching the three of those things all
together.
You're going to need to watchMultiverse of Madness.
Sorry, but seeing the four ofthose projects kind of weaved
all into whatever the ScarletWitch payoff movie would be, how
do you do this Wanda movie?
That's the question.
Well, you're probably gonnahave to link this to the Young
Avengers as well too.

Speaker 2 (01:50:21):
I mean, maybe it's something like once you know
it's kind of like.
She's kind of like a.
She becomes kind of like a,like a Horcrux where, like
Billy's awoken, tommy awakens,vision awakens, and then Wanda's
like whoop, like I'm back, likemy family is tethered back
together and now she comes back.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
Well, what I'm thinking is also whoever the
main villain of that movie isshe.
That villain pulled her outright before she was crushed.
Rio could have been real to belike hey, you need to die.
Oh, like I said, it can be athing to be like wanda, you know
it's, it was wanda all along.
Like rio's, like it's your timeto go.

(01:51:02):
But then, like I said, what'sthe only thing more powerful
than death?
A being with the ability tocreate life.

Speaker 2 (01:51:11):
That's what every mother does.

Speaker 1 (01:51:15):
And then Billy's like you're not my mom.
This is why they don't let uswrite it, because we would have
just put all those lines oneafter another, after another.
We can't help it, agatha it wasagatha all along.
She should have sung the songagain.
No, jack sheriff was like no,she's not singing the song again
I thought we were gonna get thesong again.
To be fair, or another song,but we didn't need it.

Speaker 2 (01:51:35):
no, we got the battle of the witches road and that
was enough.
Um cool.
Next week we're probably gonnado venom, venom, venom, venom,
ba-da-da-da.
It's the third Venom.

Speaker 1 (01:51:47):
Chantel Adjofor is in this one.
For some reason, noel's in thisone.
Noel is in this one, played byAndy Serkis.

Speaker 2 (01:51:52):
What the I can't wait .
$300 million.
It's making money.

Speaker 1 (01:51:59):
It is making money.
And to their point, I thinkthey think in their head like,
yeah, the Spider-Men in here,bitches, love Venom.
They're really going to do theKing in Black story for
Spider-Man 4.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):
Yeah, they are.

Speaker 1 (01:52:22):
And they're not afraid to say it either.

Speaker 2 (01:52:24):
Why we're cooking.
Let this man cook, no, let thisstudio cook.

Speaker 1 (01:52:32):
We gotta go man.

Speaker 2 (01:52:33):
We do gotta go.
You can follow us on Twitter atProject INF underscore pod.
You can follow us on Wait, whatdid I say?

Speaker 1 (01:52:39):
Did I say Twitter?

Speaker 2 (01:52:40):
You can follow us on Twitter.
Follow us on Twitter at ProjectInfinite underscore pod.
I almost said it twice.
You can follow us on YouTube atYouTubecom slash Project
Infinite pod.
You can follow us on Instagramat the Project Infinite pod.
You can follow us on TikTokTikTok yes, the TikTok's up.
We don't have video, but wehave clips.
Joker.

Speaker 1 (01:52:59):
We gotta get an editing guy to just put the
comic panels over it and likethe movie screenshots and things
like that.
We won't pay, but you'll havefun.
We're looking for an intern.

Speaker 2 (01:53:11):
Why'd you make the first movie then?

Speaker 1 (01:53:17):
One of my best lines.

Speaker 2 (01:53:18):
That's pretty good, you can follow us on TikTok, the
Project Infinite pod.
You can follow us on Facebook.
That's it Next week we're gonnatalk about venom venom, venom,
venom they ain't gonna know whathit them.
Not you, father.
You father, they did it.
Get that man an oscar.

(01:53:42):
Get that symbiote an oscar.
Let this man cook.
They should put carnage in thenext deadpool movie,
specifically that version ofcarnage.
Yeah, um, uh, all right, that'sit from me.
From the oh, a lot of goodchoices to pick this week.
Uh man, oh man.

(01:54:03):
From the Careful, I do gotta becareful still.

Speaker 1 (01:54:10):
One day I'm gonna make it, so you have to do it.
It's gonna be funny.

Speaker 2 (01:54:15):
From the Don't Don't what.
I was gonna say the AgathaHarkness.
I was gonna say the BillyKaplan of the podcast.
I'm not that nice he is, though.
I was going to say the BillyKaplan of the podcast.
I'm not that nice he is, thoughhe doesn't want you to think
that, but he is.
I'm not that nice.
I'm not that nice man.
I love his acting switch, yeah,from when he goes from teen to

(01:54:40):
Billy Kaplan, he's like, oh,he's a little sinister, this kid
, this guy.
And he's got the glowy hands,mm-hmm.
Then the Billie Eilish songplayed Good stuff.
He got a crown.
He got a Scarlet Witch crown.
Yep, good for him.
I'm happy.
I'm happy for him.
Who's going to play his brother?

Speaker 1 (01:54:59):
question mark well, you know you need the other guy
from heartstopper to playhulkling.
Yeah, who do you get to playhis brother?
Trying to think of these likeyoung adult shows that are
running right now buddy from, uh, buddy from 13 reasons why?

Speaker 2 (01:55:16):
which one?
The freaking main character?

Speaker 1 (01:55:19):
no, no no, no he's, he doesn't give off speed guy
enough.

Speaker 2 (01:55:23):
Oh, you need a speed guy, huh, you need like a.

Speaker 1 (01:55:26):
I'll tell you what.
What's his name?
From Outer Banks, the friendcharacter from Outer Banks, if
he wasn't, I mean, how old isJolok?
He's like 20.
Jolok's young, if the kid thatwe wanted to play Johnny Storm,
if he was a little bit younger.

Speaker 2 (01:55:41):
He's 21 now.

Speaker 1 (01:55:42):
If the guy from Outer Banks was a little younger he
would have been a great speed.
I forgot what his name is Pattysomething.
Patty Considine Nope that's notit, patty Considine is speed,
this grown adult that wasgetting bullied and that was
drowned.

Speaker 2 (01:56:00):
And he's British for some reason, and he's British
for some reason.

Speaker 1 (01:56:02):
Yeah, don't let him lose his accent Patty Considine.

Speaker 2 (01:56:07):
Matt Smith, matt Smith, he could do it.
They could have me believe thatMatt Smith is a teenage guy.

Speaker 1 (01:56:16):
Yeah, I like it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:17):
Wow, good for Joe Locke.

Speaker 1 (01:56:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56:21):
Yeah, all right.
Yeah, I guess we'll see thesecharacters again.
Vision Quest I didn't think Iwas excited for it, and now I'm
excited for it.

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
Now I'm kinda like I'm interested what do y'all?

Speaker 2 (01:56:32):
you had my attention, now you.
You had my curiosity, now youhave my attention.
Marvel and James Spader'scoming back.

Speaker 1 (01:56:37):
Yeah, he is James Spader, who's not done anything
since.

Speaker 2 (01:56:41):
Age of Ultron.
Yeah, not done anything sinceAge of Ultron.
So crazy.
He did Blacklist.
He did Age of Ultron.

Speaker 1 (01:56:45):
He said Y'all take it easy.

Speaker 2 (01:56:48):
James Spader, you want to be Ultron again.
He's like sure.

Speaker 1 (01:56:50):
He's like no, they're like here's $1 billion.
He said.
You see, the thing aboutmeteors, the purity of them.
Ultron had some bars.
We might need to talk about Ageof Ultron one day I'm down
cause.
I think that is one of the mostunderrated Marvel movies that

(01:57:12):
there's ever been there were adozen extinction level events
before even the dinosaurs gottheirs.

Speaker 2 (01:57:17):
Every time the earth settles, god throws the stones
at it and trust me, and trust me, he's winding up.
You know, this church is in thecenter of this town, god throws
the stones at it and, trust me,he's winding up.

Speaker 1 (01:57:25):
You know, this church is in the center of this town,
so everybody can be equally asclose to God.
He said it's so funny, thegeometry.
He said the geometry of belief.
What was?

Speaker 2 (01:57:38):
he cooking.
Yo, yo, yo Yo, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
The human race will have everyopportunity to improve.
And if they don't ask, noahJesus.
You know what my favorite lineof Ultron is, and it's not even
like a philosophical line.

(01:57:59):
It's the inner Starkism of whenhe's flying away and the hulk
jumps into the back of thequinjet and you just hear ultron
off screen.

Speaker 1 (01:58:09):
Oh, for god's sake why would he even say that
there's no god?
He believes he was.
So done with the adventures,bro.

Speaker 2 (01:58:19):
he said, oh, for god's sake, like, like, the Hulk
just ravaged him.
Yeah, we are going to drop, weare going to do Age of Ultron.

Speaker 1 (01:58:27):
At some point yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:29):
Yeah, where'd her accent go?
Alright, guys, we'll see younext week for Venom.
Until then, goodbye Peace.

All Episodes

138 - Unraveling The MARVEL & Mystery of "Agatha All Along"

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}138 - Unraveling The MARVEL & Mystery of "Agatha All Along"