141 - Farewell to the Arrowverse: Reflecting on a Decade of Superheroes - The Project Infinite Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's the Infinite.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Podcast Go tell your friends it's the Infinite
Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
My journey never ends .

Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's the Infinite.
Podcast with Rob and Kork theCube.
Hello everybody and welcome toanother episode of the Project
Infinite Podcast, the podcastcovering the infinite and
ever-expanding multiverse offandom for movies, comics, tv
shows, video games.
We got you covered.

(00:28):
I'm rob.
I'm here, as always, with court, court.
This episode, we knew, we knewit was coming.
You knew this was coming, peteyep.
Um, obviously, the ending ofsuperman and lois has marked the
end of dc comic tv network TVthings, I guess Right, more
commonly referred to as theArrowverse or the CW-verse, you

(00:52):
know, a long-runningunder-the-radar cinematic
universe in its own right thathad no right being as compelling
and as awkward and as it was,all of the things.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
It was campy, yeah, but it was ende of the things.
It was campy, yeah, but it wasendearing and it was.
It was tender at points.
It was there were somewonderful highs, there were some
extremely incredible lows, butat the end of the day, I mean,
it's just, it's nostalgia doneright, I think, is one way to
put it I think it is it's, it'sintimate character telling and
storytelling at points too, likeI'm not I'm not naive to the

(01:28):
fact that I know what thisuniverse is, but also the
nostalgia is personal.
Like this is like the Flash usedto debut and like the
Arrowverse used to debut, likeright on my birthday, and I'll
never forget because the Flashis my favorite DC character with
Mr Miracle.
Like I remember when that firstseason hit and I I already
loved the Flash and then theshow just comes out and I didn't
watch Arrow at the point.
It's like this serializedsuperhero television that was

(01:51):
just running all throughout mywhole late teens not my late
teens, my early to mid-teens andto my mid twenties.
This whole universe was runningthis whole time and it did such
a great job.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
It did a really nice job too of evolving over time.
I think DC got a little moreconfident in it as time went
along.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
I mean you saw the confidence once we got to Crisis
on Infinite Earths.
You saw the confidence thatthey had.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
To the point where they let them do Superman on TV
Supermanman, and they bought adceu character as well yeah, so
um, and did a really nice job,you know, evolving in terms of
the universe and letting itbecome more super heroic.
Obviously, you know arrow isextremely grounded.
Um, and then once we'll talk Imean we'll talk about the

(02:42):
introduction of barry allen andkind of what that meant for that
universe as we get into it.
But yeah, this episode is goingto be kind of our eulogy,
eulogizing of the Arrowverse,you know, our favorite moments,
characters.
It'll be a really kind ofinformal thing where we just
reminisce on the good times andthe bad times, yeah, and the
confusing times.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Somebody play the song from the end of Deadpool
and Wolverine.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Turn this on and the confusing times and everything
in between, yep.
But first we do have some news,starting with a bombshell, I
guess, but also one we kind ofsaw coming, insofar as Chris
Evans is coming back forAvengers Doomsday.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
I think the bombshell nature of that it it doesn't
come from the fact that he'scoming back.
I think it's the nature of whatshe's coming back, because it's
presumably as Captain Americais.
What the thought process is isthat he will be Captain America
once again.
And I mean, I know we havesimilar thoughts.
I don't know if they're thesame exact thoughts, but we have
very similar thoughts.
I think it's going to be akinto how we thought about Robert
Downey Jr coming back, as youknow, as Doctor Doom, as Dr Doom

(03:40):
, which is still polarizing, tosay the least, and I know we
have differing views on thatalone.
But how do you feel about thisone?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
I mean it's less jarring than the Robert Downey
Jr thing, because I feel likeonce the Robert Downey Jr thing
happened, it felt like thismoment was only a matter of time
, whereas the Robert Downey Jrthing completely came out of
left field, yeah, where nobodycould have seen that coming
Right.
But once that domino fell, itfelt like this was the next
logical step Sure sure.
So I'm not as jarred by it or assurprised, because now it feels

(04:16):
like what they're trying to doand what they're setting up is
taking shape a little bit withAvengers Doomsday.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
And, so far as I think, chris Evans is coming
back.
I think he's coming back as avariant, probably an evil
variant of Captain America.
All right, well, that's.
The rumors are kind ofcirculating, as is that the OG
Avengers will all come back andit's going to be some twisted
version led by Dr Doom, whichwould be Robert Downey Jr, so
has the face of Tony Stark.
This twisted version of theAvengers, which it's an
interesting concept, I mean, ithas its positive and its
negative.
So I mean, if you just shootdown the list, obviously you

(04:50):
just do Hydra, captain America.
That's the one piece that wenever saw.
It makes the most sense RobertDowney Jr.
Obviously he's going to be DrDoom in this.
We were kind of talking before.
You do Thunderstrike as anoption.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yeah, Thor's the only one that doesn't fit as neatly
into this because Thorhistorically in the comics it's
hard for him to be evil or beinggod of the god of thunder.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
I mean you can dip into the Donny Cates, the newer
Thor run and you can make him.
You can make him the Herald ofGalactus, if you want, and just
have it be an evil version ofThor.
That's the Herald of Galactus,because Galactus is going to be
in a movie before you get tothis movie.
That that's an option.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
You could do Beta Ray Bill.
You could do Donald Blake,because Donald Blake becomes
evil in that Donny Cates run aswell too.
So you can kind of pullThunderstrike is an easier one.

(05:30):
Just have him have theThunderstrike moniker, have him
be Donald Blake, and then it'sjust an evil version of him
no-transcript.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Last week with dc, like have some fun, sure.
Like make up, make like, if youwant to put this evil avengers
team together, like give themsome like original backstories,
right, who cares, it's amultiverse I like it it could be
any variant you want.
It doesn't have to benecessarily pulled from a comic
book run, even though like it'dbe cool to see.
Like maestro hulk, yeah youknow, in live action.
But like it doesn't have to bemaestro just because he's like

(06:15):
the most famous evil version ofhulk.
Like you could do.
You could do something elsewhere, like a hulk that you know
suppresses banner right andlike he is just a monster.
Like you could do that.
Like there's a lot of coolthings you could do.
Like it doesn't necessarily haveto be like a comic book
accurate thing, right um but Ido think the hydra captain
america is coming just because Ifeel like it's something people
have been wanting to see, sure,um, I think if chris evans was

(06:39):
going to come back as captainamerica, I think he would want
to do it differently.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Obviously you're not going to do Johnny Storm until
Secret Wars Again.
If you're going to do that way,maybe have him play both.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
I think you could do that.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Because Secret Wars.
All bets are off.
Once Secret Wars hits, I thinkDisney is going to give every
single resource, they're goingto make every single last call
to every single last actor thathas had the Marvel logo from the
beginning of the time to theend of time on any sort of movie
show, anything.
Yep um on on my thoughtsoverall.
I mean you know how I feelabout this.
You personally know how I feelabout this.
It's just I'm starting to getkind of sick of the, of the dis,

(07:18):
like the dis illusion thatthese new avengers do not matter
, like that's how it's startingto feel.
It was like like these we don'tcare, like we got to get some
money made and like, to thepoint, this is a business at the
end of the day.
I listened to Eric Kripke on theScript-A-Part podcast yesterday
and I mean he was talking aboutit too.
He was very transparent aboutit because I think he was

(07:40):
talking about Huey and how Hueywas like obviously he's Scottish
in the or he's Irish orScottish in the, in the Boys
comic and by Simon Pegg.
But they and he said I had toswitch it because it was an
American.
You know, this is an Americanshow and and Butcher already was
British so he couldn't have twomain leads.
He's like I knew like theyweren't, like that might not
have sold the same way.

(08:00):
So I'm not naive, like I knowthis is a business and I mean no
Way Home is always my NorthStar for this of like that
second half plays because of howincredible all those actors are
, but there's glaring holes inthat movie.
Like there are very, veryglaring holes and like nostalgia
, only there's a whole BlackMirror episode about it.
Nostalgia only takes you so far.

(08:20):
It only takes you so far.
And it's like a drug.
Like it like it's a release ofdopamine because this person's
here.
But like how much does thisactually carry?
Like, carry you.
I mean you look at X-Men 97,something that like pulls
organically.
Obviously it's coming from anact, like a cartoon from the 90s
, but like these are new,innovative stories that they
were pulling on and like it'sjust great storytelling, like

(08:42):
just straight up.
I mean you look at some ofMarvel's best.
Like you look at Daredeviltelevision show.
Like it's just greatstorytelling, that's all it's
relying on.
It's just it's not relying onnostalgia, it's just relying on
being good.
It's just because I was flippingthrough some of the TV shows,
some of the movies from afterPhase 3, and it's just like
Anthony Mackie's in nothing forhow many years?
Like he hasn't been in anythingfor three years.

(09:04):
She-hulk's been by the wayside.
I mean, we thought Amon Villaniwas going to be like their.
You know, throw her in anythingand get people excited, and
just nothing.
Like she's had one extrapost-credits scene after the
Marvels.
Like those are only projects.
Like it's just Chong Chi.
Chong Chi might be the biggestone out of that whole thing, and

(09:24):
I mean a movie that made money,a movie that was Reviewed well,
reviewed well.
A movie that invigorated a lotof like this, like need for
hand-to-hand action in the newage of the MCU as well too.
Like there were so many coolthings, like you can look at
Kate Bishop as well.
But there's so many thingswhere I'm feeling like these new
Avengers had such a great way.

(09:44):
Like obviously, ant-man and theWasp or Ant-Man.
Quantum Media has an overlayerover it.
That's looming.
That's that hurts them theirbrand going into these Avengers
movies.
But it's still Paul Rudd at theend of the day, you can still
get him in there.
Even Doctor Strange as well too.
Even even Wanda, even ElizabethOlsen as well too.
The whole framework of the newAvengers feels so backburnered.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
And it culminates in this because someone made an
interesting point.
It's an observation thatAvengers Endgame was the
send-off for the originalAvengers and we didn't even get
another Avengers movie withoutthose actors.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
And that's my thing, that's the big thing they're
coming back for the nextAvengers movie.
We couldn't even go.
And again, I I still think whatyou do is you switch secret
invasion and, like you, you makesecret invasion as big a deal
as it is in the comics.
Like you make the understandinglike secret invasion is going
to be this massive deal.
Um, you can.
What you can probably do isusurp the marvels for secret
invasion instead.

(10:41):
You can probably not make, youcould probably not make one or
two of those movies and makeSecret Invasion instead.
And like again, like I alreadytalked about this, like the
whole cell, this is your newAvengers.
Half of this team is fake.
Like half of these team isn'treal.
Anthony Mackie might be theonly one that's real in here.
That's the only one that's nota Skrull, and he has to figure
this out.
Like, imagine him taking themantle of Captain America to the
government, to the world, andnow being the leader of the

(11:03):
Avengers publicly and it's like,oh crap, like everything.
Like this is the biggestfailure I could have had.
Like, and then he has to pickhimself back up from that too.
You do a Falcon in the WinterSoldier Season 2 or Captain
American in the Winter SoldierSeason 2 and have the fallout.
Like there's so many routes youcould have taken and obviously
some things were unforeseenscene um but again, like even
chadwick poseman's passing, youstill made sure, like ryan

(11:26):
coogler made sure he got youguys leticia right.
Still didn't get used foranything like that's all I'm
thinking.
Like none of these charactersseem to be cared about yeah, and
I mean to.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
I mean to the black panther point.
It almost feels like the blackpanther mythos is so separate
now yeah, from all the othermarvel stuff.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Which is how ingrained was it before, like it
was the backbone the firstappearance of t'challa is in a
captain america movie, and thenthe the success of black panther
made the backdrop of infinitywar wakanda.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
So that shows you everything you need to know
black panther, I mean obviouslyblack panther 2 had so many
mitigating circumstances, but itjust felt it just feels like
now, like, and then going intoblack panther 3, like it just
feels like that character inthat corner of the Marvel
Universe feels so sealed off,right, I guess the only tether
to the greater Marvel Universein that movie is Ironheart Sure,
which we both feel was the mostshoehorned in part of Black

(12:16):
Panther 3.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Oh that was definitely the ask from the
studio, because they said weneed to make sure, but then
again, I don't know what thecircumstances were.
What was the rumor?
The rumor that jonathan majorswas supposed to be in ironheart,
um, and then he was removed.
Obviously, he was removed fromironheart, so that's why that
move, or that's why that showtook, because that show got made
in what?
2021?
like that show's been made foryears I believe it was 2022,

(12:39):
something like that two, threeyears later and now we're
finally getting the show in 2025, like something probably
happened where they had tocompletely shift the show yeah
um, but yeah, I mean, obviouslyI'm not, I'm not again, I'm not
naive to myself either, like,yeah, I'll take a bit in the
step, like I will still, and themovie's gonna make a bajillion
dollars, exactly, and that's andthat's.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
I guess that's the ultimate counter to anything
that we're saying is Spider-Man,the way home, made a billion
dollars, right?
Deadpool Wolverine made abillion dollars.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Cause most people are not us.
Like most people are notthinking.
Most people want the otherthing.
They want to turn their brainsoff and like, hey, there's that
person from my childhood orthere's that person from the
time of my life where thesemovies were were absolutely
incredible.
Like that's what they and Ican't knock it, I just can't
like.
But these are just my ownpersonal thoughts of like I
don't.
A part of me doesn't love itbecause, again, it's my whole

(13:28):
bias is it's taking away fromorganic storytelling that the
infinity saga was so reliant on.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yep, and I mean, at the end of the day, maybe maybe
they'll get there, sure, Maybewe will segue in cleanly into to
this.
Um, but like I said, it's Ijust felt, I felt this was
coming.
Once the robbie downing juniorthing will happen, like they're
gonna figure out a way to getthem all back, and that seems
like where we're headed.
Um, we got some, we got somecinema news, so we had a trailer

(13:55):
for 28 years later, yeah, the,the sequel to 28 days later.
Um, back we're back to ourroots, back to our zombie roots.
Is it too late?
Is it too late for zombiethings?
No, no.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
I mean Never too late .
And again, it's not the factthat it's too late, too early
for zombie things, it just needsto be a well-made thing.
I think that's what moderncinema, modern television, is
starting to understand, and it'sfunny that we just talked about
that for the biggest universein Hollywood and now we're kind
of flipping the point.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, I mean, all your favorites are back.
Danny Boyle is back, alexGarland is back writing, cillian
Murphy is going to be back andour original cinematographer,
anthony Dodd-Mandel, is back.
So the group is back together.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, iphone 16, 15, 16s.
They were shooting this on aswell, too, which is obviously
your move, gareth Edwards.
Listen this on as well, too,which is obviously your move,
gareth Edwards.
Listen.
Gareth Edwards should take aSuper 8 film camera or Super 16
and just film a whole movie onit and just see how it goes.
You've been challenged.
You've been challenged, GarethEdwards.
Is Gareth Edwards like in ourtop 3 directors in this whole

(14:58):
podcast?
I love him.
He's the man.
He's awesome.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
I told you he's going to make Jurassic the next
Jurassic Park.
I said it was going to be aniPhone, but I guess he has to
kiss you up the ante Right andEtch-a-Sketch.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
And Etch-a-Sketch would be crazy.
Give me a Razor, give me aMotorola Razor, like the first
one that had any sort of videocapability, and we're going to
make some cinema with it.
Yeah, how does this look likedune 2?
How did he, how did he get itto look that good?
Um, but this trailer looked fun.
Oh, it looks like I'm I'mexcited for this.
I'm really, I'm really in.
I mean danny boyle, I mean he's, he's an award winner and how

(15:32):
incredible.
And I mean you want to talk,feel.
And it was smart of him to putthat opening clip in from the
original movie as well, too.
Like to just get people caughtup, because how many zombie
properties were in between?
Oh, these two.
So it was good to get peoplecaught up, because how many
zombie?
properties were in between, oh,these two.
So it was good to get peoplecaught up immediately as well
too.
But again, it's just.
This movie looks it looksincredible.
I mean I, I'm such a big alexgarland fan I feel like he can

(15:54):
do no wrong.
I know he made men, doesn'tmatter, he can do no wrong, but
I mean this, just it looks itlooks intriguing.
Like it looks like this isgonna be like you know, your
quasi horror thriller zombie.
Like it.
Just it looks like this tone isdialed in as well too.
Yep, um, I think aaron taylor,johnson and ralph fines are
going to be incredible as well.
And then I think the I thinkthe exclusion of killian murphy

(16:14):
is is is coordinated.
Like there's a reason he's notin this as well too.
So I mean, I'm really lookingforward to it.
I'm I my attention you reallydo.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, I'm definitely in.
And then.
So Dune has been a talk of thetown insofar as Denis Villeneuve
was fighting vigorously yeah,he was as he should to allow the
score, the Hans Zimmer score ofDune II, to be recognized and
accepted for nomination at theOscars, and he has been swiftly

(16:47):
denied.
So Dune II will not be eligiblefor Best Original Score at the
Oscars due to much of the scorebeing too similar to the first
movie, and I don't think that'snecessarily fair.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
No, no, I mean to be blunt.
I think it's BS.
I think it's complete and utterBS.
I mean, I know you have tofollow certain rules, but I mean
you're usurping some absolutelyincredible score pieces that
were originated for this movie.
I mean, the two specific onesthat come to mind is the kiss,
the ring right where Paul takesthe throne over, and it's the
ride into the end of the movie.

(17:23):
I mean, that is just.
That's one of those scorepieces.
When it starts to, you know, itstarts to swell and it starts
to crescendo.
It's like one of the ones thatwill ring in my head.
And like you want to talk aboutmodern love stories, funny
enough.
Um, a time of quiet between thestorms where, you know, paul
and Johnny are falling in lovewith each other.
Like that score piece was likelike I remember that one was one
of the first ones released andI was like I couldn't like this

(17:46):
is like it was like the mostbeautiful thing you'd ever heard
.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
And I'm like the fact that these things can't be
considered because of apercentage rule is just I think
it's absurd yeah, yeah, I thinkif they they wanted to you know
they wanted to recognize dunefor this like just say we're,
we're judging it based on thenew pieces, like it's still
eligible, but we're, we're,we're going to look at.

(18:11):
You know, if this thing isgoing to win, it's got to be
judged on the new additions.
Yeah, you know we're not goingto judge it on on the stuff from
the first movie.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, and I, and I mean, obviously there's been a
lot of movies that I didn't seethis year.
I've been notoriously badTowards the back half of the
year this is usually where Istart to cook, and I've been
really bad.
But I know, score-wise, like Idon't think there's any sort of
competition for this score.
If this score was submittedthere was no, there's no second
movie that I can put my fingeron that was even close to this

(18:41):
Like this is.
This would have been the clearwinner for best original score.
I mean and again, this is stillan original score there's still
so many pieces in here that areoriginal.
They're just remixed, and thenthere's still brand new score
pieces in here.
I just, I, I think it's just,it's a, it's a.
It's such like a discredit tosomebody that's been in this
business for so long as well too, is what a bit of a slap in the

(19:03):
face as well, too, of like, no,like it's too similar to your
first one.
So we don't think we can likethis like.
Come on, like that's.
So you're robbing the award ofsomebody that's deserving of it.
I mean, how many new pieces oftechnology and new pieces, the
new instruments that they madeand like they had to like, read,
like, invent the way that musicwas made for the score like and

(19:24):
you can't give it a bestoriginal score nomination, like
that's yeah, it's ridiculous,yeah, it's silly, um, but what
are you gonna do?
it's, it's the 2024 or 2025oscar best original score in my
book and it always will be.
I mean I, I think this movie isgonna.
I think this movie is gonnarack up every conceivable

(19:45):
technical award.
Yeah, like there's there'snothing better technically this
year.
It is the best score of thisyear.
It is the it's still.
I need, I need to see a nora,because I believe that's the
only one that's gonna be incontention with this.
Um and huge shout out to seanbaker.
That's one of my favoritefilmmakers.
I mean he won sundance off aniphone, so shout out to him as
well too.
Shout out to danny boyle, shoutout to sean baker.
But I mean at the end of theday and I mean it's funny

(20:08):
because I was looking because um, interstellar's back in
theaters, the 70 millimeter andpeople you hear about the
resales like people arereselling the tickets for like
215 bucks and like there'speople coming around the corner
be like, wait, is this one ofthe greatest movies?
And court sitting in the back Ilike I've been trying to say
this.
It always has been.
It always has been One of thegreatest films that's ever been
made.
People were like they wereobviously talking scale scope.
And then Dune 2 came up and itwas just like this is the best

(20:31):
picture of this year.
Like it, truthfully, is thebest movie of this year.
Yeah, timothee Chalamet couldget two best actor noms in the
same year.
I've been hearing of some reallygood things about a complete
unknown as well, too interesting, that'd be cool that would be
really cool I don't think theywould do that I don't think
they're gonna give it to him fordune, unfortunately, even

(20:51):
though I I believe that he putup.
He put up some work.
He staked his claim as one ofthe greatest young actors in
hollywood yeah, um, speaking ofbest young actors in hollywood,
jeremy allen white.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Um, he's a great actor.
He's one of best young actorsin.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Hollywood, Jeremy Allen White.
He's a great actor.
He's one of my favorite actors.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
But he's in Star Wars now.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
He is in Star Wars, but not in the way you think.
Not in the way you think hecould be like an edgy Jedi or
like a general that's reallystuck up, To quote the great
Marvel poet Madison, not in theway you think it's not what you
think.
Put her in doomsday and secretwars.
Yes, have her be the maincharacter.
I would love that.
I would love the entire.
They should do.

(21:29):
They should make madison awatcher.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
They should make madison and louise watchers I
want the entire marvel cinematicuniverse retold from madison's
perspective.
But anyway, jeremy allen white,um a surprise casting in this
movie that was already finished.
This movie's done already, buthe's in it now.
Yeah, the Mandalorian Grogu.
He will appear as the son ofJabba the Hutt.
Yeah, you couldn't have gotanybody else to do this.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Unless he loves Star Wars.
That's what I said.
Unless he just loves Star Wars.
But I feel like he screams likebroken jedi and you save him
maybe for these new movies thatyou're gonna get.
If you, yeah, why does?
He's a busy guy.
I also understand that job ofthe hutt's son well, and also
also to that point, it's a voicerole, like, yeah, he's just

(22:20):
gonna put his like pajamas onand just go to the studio record
and leave.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
He's gonna be like like you're not gonna know it's
him unless you know it's him.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Oh, but I made the point before we hopped on like
the funniest variant of this islike, if he still has the same
like, like tone is his voicefrom the bear, like it's the
same thing as, like that wouldbe the greatest that'd be worth
it, actually just this edgy,like just this edgy, jabba's son
, for no reason would be he'sedgy edgy would be pretty good.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
I'd be pretty in on that, actually.
But like, where is he coming?
I don't know.
There's so many questionsbecause, like boba fett runs
tattooing now, right, right.
So like is he is he, are wesupposed to root for him?

Speaker 1 (22:57):
I don't know what this movie is even about.
He's coming back to claim whyare they making this movie?

Speaker 2 (23:01):
why is this a?

Speaker 1 (23:02):
movie.
This should have just beenseason four.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
And also the Mandalorian doesn't have shit to
do with Tatooine.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
He was sitting on a bench outside of his house in
the last movie.
I don't know what this movie issupposed to be about.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
I know what it's supposed to be about, but I
don't know how he fits in this,me neither.
Move on.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Remember when Boba Fett turned into the Mandalorian
crazy I'm the main characternow um american psycho news.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yes, um, so we have our american psycho, and it's
austin butler outstanding pick.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Pretty good, um, I know what the a lot of the a lot
of the film.
The film nerdies like methought it was going to be jacob
lordy, because I know he metwith luca guadagnino also Also
you called your shot on that andyou were wrong.
Yeah, I was wrong.
And also huge shout out to LucaGuadagnino, because I mean
you're talking about a filmmakerthat was already in his what?
Late 50s by the time.
Call Me by your Name.
Came out Early 50s, maybe Late40s, early 50s, and like the

(23:59):
work he's a second.
Austin Butler was in threeepisodes of Arrow.
Yeah, you don't remember?
That was his boyfriend.
That turned out to be workingfor the League of Assassins.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Oh my.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
God, I did not know that.
I thought you were the Arrowguy.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
I thought we broke this down.
You're the Arrow guy and I'mthe Flash guy.
Yeah, but I didn't know that itwas Austin Butler.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, that's when he had his super long hair.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
He wasn't an LSU.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
He wasn't a movie star yet, but now he is, and now
that's why he's getting to playthe new American Psycho.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Arrow legend Arrow legend Austin Butler.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Arrow was a gateway to superstardom.
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
If we really want to talk, all right anyway.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Incredible incredible pick.
I mean, if you're somebody toplay patrick bateman, I mean
austin butler, as fade ralph hadkind of cemented.
That is like how incredible isthis about to be?

Speaker 2 (24:51):
and I mean he's a space psycho and now he's an
american psycho.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
I think the approach you do for this movie too is
like you kind of pull from bonesand all to be a little bit more
.
What's the word I'm looking for?
It's a little bit more likemelodic, if that's a good word
to use like it's, like it'ssublime.
I think that's the best way todescribe bones and all.
It's like it's a sublime horrorexperience.
I think that's the sameapproach you make for a movie
like this, and again, like thattenderness that you throw on top

(25:14):
of it.
I think that's what a glue toluca guadagnino is, like one of
his specialties, I mean what an?
absolute, incredible filmmakerthat that is.
And over the last seven yearslike how many films has he made
in the critically acclaimed like?
Every single movie he makes isa hit.
So, yeah, that's going to be,that's going to be something.
Maybe it's probably going toget him another Oscar nomination
and maybe a win.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Hmm, and then everything, really fucking.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Wow.
Um, I personally remember causeI I do love air on, like you.
I personally remember because Ido love Arrow, unlike you.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
I just didn't register that it was him.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
That was Theo's boyfriend that turned out to be
evil.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
I know the character, I know the character, but it
didn't.
It's him.
He's too famous and he's himnow.
He's too famous to be thatcharacter in Arrow.
So before we eulogize theArrowverse, we have to actually
eulogize the Sony Spider-Manweird spin-off universe.
Where Arrowverse, we have toactually eulogize the Sony
Spider-Man weird spin-offuniverse.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Where's my Hypno-Hustler movie?
We're never getting it.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
It's in the vault.
Maybe he'll show up in SecretWars.
Yeah, so, coming off the backof this Kraven movie not being
reviewed well, to the fact thatnobody apparently showed up at
the Kraven panel Like nobody,that's wild.
Not even one guy reviewed well.
To the fact that nobodyapparently showed up at the
craven panel at one of the yeah,like nobody, that's wild not

(26:28):
even one guy.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
I would have gone if I was at like a comic con and I
had some free time.
I'm like, oh craven panel, Iwould have walked in.
This is like a hollywood,budgeted movie like I'll be
there.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
So off the bones of that and and all the negative
reception, sony has decidedwe're done here, a decision that
they should have made,admittedly, probably like five
or six years ago they shouldhave been like.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
We're only making venom movies.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
They probably should have made their decision right,
but um, better better late thannever, but never late is better.
Um, yeah, so the sony universeis dead.
Um, besides, venom isbulletproof to all of this,
because it's of this they're thebest movies ever so what is
your favorite Sonyverse moviethat's not a Venom movie?

Speaker 1 (27:11):
oh, it's Morbius.
It's not even remotely close,it's Morbius having not seen
Kraven yet, I'm going to sayKraven that's actually the best
way to think about it, becauseMadam Web doesn't even deserve
to even be on this.
No, that's actually the bestway to think about it, because
madame webb doesn't even deserveto even be in on this.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
No no, um, what a ride don't do dumb things, says
they really they really, dan.
They really thought they hadsomething with this.
We're gonna do a whole universewithout spider-man in it, okay,
and guess what guys you got?
You got what you deserved, um,so I'm glad it's dead come on

(27:49):
man poor, poor michael keaton.
The vulture is just stuck inlimbo now.
I think I saw someone say thatoff, he's, he's back.
Like someone just officiallysaid that he's back in the mcu
now, like he just got backprobably had something to do
with spider-Man again.
Probably had something to dowith Morbius, though it's
Morbentown.
We're never going to see thatSinister Six movie, are we?

(28:09):
We never were Rowert.
Come on, man, you don't knowwhat about El Muerto?

Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, because what was the Sinister Six?
Bad Bunny was going to be in it.
Bad Bunny is El Muerto.
You were going to have more, soyou were gonna have donald
glover as him what are you guysdoing?
Jared leto is morbius.
What are we doing?
Uh, aaron taylor, johnson iscraven.
Um, dakota johnson is madamewebb.
Madame webb and venom, I guess.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
No, I've been much funnier venom's like nah no, no,
knowing that it would have beenthe sinister six fighting venom
maybe a billion dollar movie.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Venom's in it.
Venom's in it, just beating thecrap out of a bunch of people
nobody cares about.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
See, when you say it like that, like it's the Suicide
Squad, but Venom wins and hejust kills them all.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
It's like if Starro won in the Suicide Squad.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
That'd actually be amazing.
God, I'm available.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
I'm glad it's over.
I'm available.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Do the Cue the Deadpool Wolverine song For the
Venom.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
That's our new thing.
Just anytime, anything.
The Sonyverse.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Cue the thing, man.
That was a long time coming.
I can't believe they got thisfar and people still bought into
this.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
It's Venom's fault that they got this far.
It's true, it's Venom's fault,and the meme that Morbius became
had a golden child of uh-oh.
This thing is going to overstayits welcome by years.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
To be fair, I'll never forget when we saw Morbius
in the first ten seconds.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
That might have been one of the greatest We've had.
You know what was a funny moviewatch we had in the theater?
Funny enough, it was MatrixResurrections.
I don't know why.
That was super fun.
But that Morbius was, that wasa golden.
That was one of the best cinemawatches, because we didn't.
Any cinema etiquette was thrownout the window between the two
of us.
We didn't care at that.

(30:09):
Hey pal, you look like you needa doctor.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
I am a doctor.
I'll never forget.
Rob looked over at me.
He's like oh no bro, oh no,remember when they just
blatantly ripped off the, thedark knight score yeah, that was
crazy, that was insane what'sgoing on there.
I'm glad it's over.
Can't wait.
After Kraven comes out we'll doa Sony universe without
Spider-Man retrospective.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Venom's going to win every award.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
No.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Venom's disqualified.
Come on, what are we even doingit for?

Speaker 2 (30:35):
The memes yeah, so we can talk about Matt Smith for
half an hour.
Yeah, get Matt Smith in anactual good Marvel thing.
Yeah, make him Doctor Doom.
Yeah, the MCU's Doctor Doom,like I've been saying, that
would be great, god.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, it's still Game of Thrones, adjacent alums
playing Reed and Victor.
Yeah, also, did you see PedroPascal in the last few weeks?
Yeah, I'm sorry y'all Toanybody that was Henry Richards
is going to slap hard.
I don't remember if I was likeimmediately I wasn't against it,
but I was just like look wise.
And then I saw it.
I was like, oh, shut up court.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, I was pretty in on it.
Yeah, just because I enjoy hiswork.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
If you ever guys, ever find, when I was like maybe
not.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
I'm I'm sold.
You don't have to sell meanymore, but I'm sold.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
Oh I was going to.
I fear Matt Shackman might havecooked Like I'm talking
vehemently cooked on this one,because he probably didn't have
to live within the confines ofwhat the MCU superhero movies
were doing.
He might have just cookedsomething up, that's insane.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yep, I agree.
All right, it's time it.
I agree, alright, it's time.
It's time you can't see us, butwe have our Star Labs
sweatshirts on.
Yep, we're matching, we got ourStar.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Labs hoodies on Star Labs hoodies.
I got the crew neck on.
Yep, you got the original crewneck from.
So, okay, can we talk about thenumber one?
Unanswered questions that don'tmake any sense?
We're going to do that now.
No, we're just going to do getthe crew necks from.
Why did they have every sizeavailable, every size, what you
need, like.
What do you need?
Are you like?
Are you the villain or are youlike the anti-hero of the week

(32:09):
or like you?
Are you like the person thatlike needs to be in here?
Here's a star lab like.
Why did everybody wake up inthe star labs?
complimentary star labs crewneck amazon when they saw that
the star labs crew necks were inthe show and the store started
blowing up.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Start printing me money.
Harrison Wells Etsy store isgoing crazy, Blowing up man.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
Millions each year.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
But he didn't even need to be a scientist anymore.
No, but the Arrowverse, theCWverse I guess we can just
quick kind of Deadball erabaseball homage to Smallville,
yeah, kind of like that.
I kind of like in this likeblade with like superhero movies
, it's kind of what reallykicked it off, but doesn't.

(32:53):
I mean, obviously Smallvillehas a massive following, but it
ended in 2011, so it's kind oflike the BC era DC superhero
shows, you know.
You know, serialized dctv,serialized superman, yeah, um
tom welling, obviously we'lltalk about tom welling in a
little bit too.

(33:13):
When we talk about christ ondifferent earths.
Um tom welling, obviously justincredible performance as as
young clark kent.
Um smallville ends with himbecoming super proper and then
you think, all right, that wascool, that's it.
And then DC in 2012 comes outwith Arrow, which we've talked
about Arrow before.
On one of these episodes we dida full Arrow retrospective.

(33:36):
So Arrow comes out in 2012,obviously starring Stephen Amell
as Oliver Queen.
They do an Iron man with thecharacter.
Basically like we're just,we're gonna loosely do the green
arrow, but we're gonna makethem cool yeah, so let's talk
about that real quick.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
So the approach happens um, you get stephen
amell, this canadian actorthat's been in what, like he's
been in a little bit of the TVshow thing.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
He did the CW UPN pipeline that all these guys do
A little Law and Order.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
It's funny I just listen to, because I'm old now
and all I do is listen topodcasts.
I listen to the A24 podcastwith Coleman Domingo and
Sebastian Stan and they bothtalk about being on Law and
Order for a little bit.
So he did his thing.
He was here, he was there.
You bounce around television alittle bit.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, did.
A lot of you know rom-com TV,all that stuff.
Blue Mountain State he was infor a couple episodes.
Obviously did his NCIS.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
CSI vampire diaries all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Um new girl.
He was in for a bit.
So you know, typical CW goodlooking, short hair, blonde,
hair blue eyes, it's your AlanRichen, yeah, variant yeah, so
they get him.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
He's shirtless, yeah, all the time yeah, they
emcee-ed him in season one ofArrow.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
They faced one and two emcee-ed him anytime they
needed him on that salmon ladder.
He was on it in season one well, that's when they didn't know.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
They knew, but they were like we need to make this
edgy, it needs to be a CW teendrama.
And then I can't wait until westart talking about the Flash.
And then again it was the waythat the superhero landscape
overall was going.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, and they were like wait a minute, can we just
do superhero television.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
And then, yeah, and they were like, wait a minute,
can we just do superherotelevision?
And then he got better.
Yeah, as an actor, I want totalk about that because there's
two actors in that universe thatgot better, and it's tyler
heckling and it's steven amell.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
There's two actors that literally we watched them
get better.
Yeah he got better.
Um, the the chains kind of cameoff a little bit.
The cw shows where they coulddo a little, a little bit more,
a little bit more.
Season two it goes.
Season one is pretty grounded.
Season two it goes full.
Here's Deathstroke yeah, thatwas nuts.

(35:53):
And then, obviously, seasonthree.
We get the backdoor intro.
Grant Gustin shows up as BarryAllen and you're like you're the
Flash from DC Comics or youwill be.
He gets struck by lightning atthe end of arrow, at the end of
that little mini crossover, andyou're like are we?
This was 2012.
Like this is pre, likeeverybody knowing everything era

(36:14):
, so like nobody really knewthat the flash thing was coming.
And then he got struck bylightning at the end of the
episode.
You're like are they waiting?
Are they?
Are they going to do the flash?
Do we have the budget for that?
Do we have the budget to do theflash?
And they did have the budgetCause.
Then we get the flash.
Um, in 2014, grant Gustin,obviously starring as Barry
Allen.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Um, I'll never forget that first episode of the flash
.
I remember the anticipation wasreally good too.
I remember like and like it andit's funny because once the
season two.
It's funny because this episode, even this episode of this
podcast, is very near and dear,because a large part of our
friendship is built upon theArrowverse as well too.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
I met you while the Arrowverse was prime running.
There would even get timeslater we would watch episodes of
the Arrowverse.
This thing is so near and closeto this.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
It's so near and close to us.
And then you had to ask thequestion where, so where do they
go from here?
And then the cw had an answer.
Right.
They said what if we got allthe weird characters together
and made another show?
You're like, can you do that?
Legends, tomorrow is born.
Um, it started it's.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
It started out kind of like a like a like a tried
and true drama.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Like it started out kind of like a tried and true
drama.
It started out as they weregoing to centralize it around
Hawkman and Hawkgirl obviouslyTwo pretty important DC
characters, and then they weregoing to throw in a little
Captain Cold in there.
A little bit of Firestorm.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Kind of like all these C-lists.
It was like an amalgamation of,in my opinion, the Legion of
Superheroes, the legion ofsuperheroes and the suicide
squad kind of mixed into, likeits own team, yep um which the
justice league.
It was like the three of thoseteams mixed into one, which made
sense.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
It was cool yeah, and then unfortunately for for that
, not unfortunately for thatshow, because it worked out, but
the lead actors of for hawkmanand hawk girl just weren't there
and I don't know if it's themor if it's the writing of those
characters, and then that showkind of got.
I mean, that show predictablygot taken over by Wentworth
Miller and Katie Lotz.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, Rip Tyler as well too.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
Rip Hunter, yeah, or Rip Hunter, rip Hunter, yeah I
forget the actor's name, but Imean, I was going to say, like
most underrated character, it'shim.
For me it's Rip Hunter.
He is just the actor himself.
He's oozing charisma.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
He's absolutely incredible.
Yeah, that was, and then.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Supergirl.
Cbs stepped in and said hey,obviously we can't get Superman
but Supergirl on the table.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
And then they strike absolute gold with Melissaissa
benoist.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, um, just incredible supergirl yeah, it's
something to say that your threelead actors for the three
biggest shows that were likesingular characters are, yeah,
were that great and thatsynonymous with those characters
as well too.
And like it was to the point of, like I knew superman and lois
and we'll talk about this.
How like different it's not alike it doesn't, it's the most.
This isn't a CW show, that andStargirl.

(39:07):
But you know, I was likelonging for Melissa Benoist to
show up in that last season, oreven on like the flash forward
for Superman and Lois Spoilersbut I'm not going to say what
happens with the flash forward.
Like I was longing for her andbe like Aunt Kara's back, I
think that would have beenpretty cool.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Obviously, you get the massive which showed so much
confidence.
The CBS episode of Supergirlgets Grant Gustin to be in an
episode of Supergirl and thenyou're like, whoa, are we doing
this?
Then Supergirl gets moved tothe CW basically because of that
, which paves the way for inseason two of supergirl we get

(39:46):
tyler hecklund um, as supermanand we'll talk about that
obviously is probably one of ourspoiler alert.
That is one of my favoritemoments in the entire era versus
tyler hecklund's firstappearance superman.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
First episode of season two of supergirl, like I
remember, they released like amini clip from it and I was like
like wait a minute.
Is like is that Superman?
Is that, is that Superman?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Um, so yeah, legend, and then I didn't really, we
didn't really finish our thoughton legends tomorrow, where it
devolves into just a slapstickcomedy.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Well, I want to talk about season two, cause I think
season two and season three theyunderstand.
Especially season two, itstarts to really understand like
the tone of the show.
But then that's a show that,like there's that each season is
toned are massively differentfor whatever reason, but it does
such a good, that show doessuch a good job of that it does,
what all great comedy kind ofshows you divulges into like a

(40:37):
comedy, a comedy action at theend of the day, and then it it
one of the best moments of anyof the crossovers is the death
of Martin Stein.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, man and Crisis on Earth, exit.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Man and Crisis on Earth Exit.
That is my favorite crossover,I think.
I think I agree with you.
It is such a dialed-incrossover.
It gives all the characterssome shine.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Everyone gets something to do it gets this big
superhero lineup moment.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
That's probably the best one that we've gotten so
far.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, so Legends of Samaro goes on for quite a while
, Probably longer than anyonethought.
And then 2018, you know again,CW's full steam ahead.
They said who else can we do?

Speaker 1 (41:14):
We're going to go with Black Lightning, and you're
like whoa Black Lightning saidwhat if we spent 90% of the
budget on music in the firstthree episodes?
What are our thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (41:24):
And once again, which is a through line of all of
these shows you get an actor.
You get an actor's actor toplay your lead character, the
job Cress Williams did as.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Jefferson Pierce.
Is it the voice, is it thepresence?

Speaker 2 (41:37):
It's all of it, it's something so uncanny or not
uncanny.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
There's something so like tried and true about crest
williams's black light, and youknow what's funny?
He's so similar to barry in somany ways he's like a more.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
He's an older, more realized version of what barry
could become, and I love theframing for the entire show that
he was retired, like his heydaywas past him, something we'd
never seen before yep.
And then he comes out ofretirement to be black lightning
again and you know, one of myfavorite moments from that
character is the crossover,obviously, when he finally joins
the Arrowverse proper, oh man.
And he has a couple of reallygreat scenes with Grant Gustin,

(42:14):
and then he has the amazingscene with Grant in the
Elseworlds.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Not Elseworlds In the year after Crisis.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
What was that?
What was that event?
The Flash.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
I forget what it was.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
It was after Crisis Despero comes in, oh yeah, and
him and Grant have that amazingscene in their little Hall of
Justice where he kind of givesthem a pep talk, and I'm like
wow.
And then I guess the mostmaligned series of of all of
this is batwoman.
Um, it was their attempt atwe're gonna do gotham, we're

(42:52):
gonna do gotham city you'reitching to do batman.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
But I, I guarantee, because I think the, I think the
heads at warner brothers werelike you, we gave you superman,
you know they.
That's when I think thepreliminaries on the batman was
working.
Like ben affleck stilltechnically he still was batman
at that time like he still wasbatman yep, um.
So they were like we wereprobably might have two batman
running at the same, like wecan't have a third batman for

(43:16):
television.
But again.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
You know, obviously it didn't work out, but they
once again attached an a a liststar to their main.
They got ruby rose, which atthe time I was like wow right,
exactly they got ruby rose to dothis right.
That woman show right um.
I thought she was pretty good Ilike that I like the edge that
she brought to kate kane.
Um, I liked her scenes withsupergirl in the crossovers
that's probably my favorite partand, unfortunately, ruby rose

(43:39):
had a really horrifyingexperience.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, it just makes me sick on those on that.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
On that set, um, just felt like kind of the wheels
were falling off at that point,yeah, and they kind of stitched
that show together and you know,she had a really horrific back
injury, yeah.
Um, on set of soup on, uh, onthe set of bat woman, um, she
gets replaced by javisca leslie,who takes over the bat woman
mantle, but as ryan wilder, um,I enjoyed her bat woman.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
She actually was pretty solid and you have to
work with what you have at thatpoint when she's picking it up,
and I think she did a prettysolid job.
I can't really give anycritiques or complaints.
I think, for what she was given, that's not bad.
That's actually pretty good.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
The Arrowverse got so popular at one point that Matt
what the heck is his name thatplays Constantine.
Oh, at one point that, um, mattuh, what the heck is his name?
That plays constantine.
Oh, matt ryan.
Matt ryan came back, gotresurrected.
Constantine's another one ofthose bc before before, before
cw era, constant, theconstantine show on upn um, and
they seamlessly wove constantineinto the era of earth's canon.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
He was kind of like dr strange is in the mcu, like
he was the magic person thatlike multiple shows were going
to him.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yeah, that's one of the cool things about you know,
obviously season 4 of Arrowisn't great, but when
Constantine showed up I was like, oh shoot.
And Matt Ryan synonymous withConstantine I mean he voices him
in the animated seriesobviously has portrayed him in
several TV shows now.
Um, so, matt Ryan, it was coolthat he came back and the

(45:07):
Arrowverse popularized the artof the crossover.
Yeah, man.
Starting small with, obviously,the Arrow Flash crossovers, got
bigger with the Legends ofTomorrow crossovers.
Then they just got insane.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
When you're talking about Elseworlds, when you're
talking about Crisis on Earth X,when you're talking about the
invasion crossover and the pointI want to make about how
incredible that this is and likehow I can't overstate the
logistical nightmare thattelevision is, because when you
talk television and I don'tthink a lot of people realize
this when you talk about a film,that's it, it's your movie

(45:41):
television.
A lot of the times is writtenas the season is going on.
You're writing these, so thefact that they could pre-vis,
they can like pre-plan, all ofthese things, like the
logistical nightmare to probablyget flash and arrow together,
was probably a nightmare youtalk about once you get into
crisis on earth, once you getinto um, into invasion.

(46:02):
The fact that they goteverybody together for all those
crossovers is just incredible,like it is an incredible feat
that they did that together forall those crossovers is just
incredible.
It is an incredible feat thatthey did that.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yeah, and then I mean Christ on Infinite Earths is
obviously what everything wasbuilt into and it's where they
just did.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Did it before any movie did.
And these DC characters havebeen around for how long?
And they did it before anymovie could.
That says everything.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
They took every swing .
And you can say whatever youwant about Christ on Earth, but
at the end of the day, they gaveus just moments that, like you
never thought you'd see, um, yougot.
I mean, burt Ward came back asDick Grayson for like a smidge.
They're like they paid, andthat's something that Arrowverse
doesn't get enough credit forproperly kind of paying homage

(46:45):
to everything that came beforeit, of credit for properly kind
of paying homage to everythingthat came before it.
Whether it's oh, yeah, oh,whether it's bringing john
wesley ship in to portray barryallen's father, later have him
portray jay garrick and thenultimately have him reprise his
role as barry allen later on, um, whether it's bringing linda
carter in to to be the, thepresident of the united states
and supergirl what I want toeven go farther with that.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
To say is like this universe that so many people say
is stupid.
That's always going to be.
My counterpoint is like theseactors that were in these things
like had so much trust and likethere's so much like reverence
for it and like people are likethe creatives on there were like
no, we're going to make sure,like you guys, are done justice.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
They let Brandon Routh be Superman again.
Yeah incredibly so he came backas superman.
They gave us kevin conroy, yeahthey bought bruce wayne.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
They bought back, um, they bought back the lois lane
actress to play cara's mother,like yeah, so many pieces were
moving, to make sure they gaveus they finally gave us kevin
conroy as batman right andobviously you know, wasn't the
type of batman that peoplewanted him to be like.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
He ended up being evil.
King and kingdom come batman but, like still, you got to hear
kevin conroy do bruce wayne inlive action, right, and I just I
remember specifically when theycast him, I could not wait for
that episode.
And then when you hear the voiceyou know off screen, like you
hear him talk to kate for thefirst time and you're just like

(48:06):
that's bat dude, like regardlessof how the storyline ends up,
like he still got to be Batmanin live action, um, and it was
awesome, um, all the way youknow, and comes all the.
It comes all the way back toSmallville, as as Tom Welling
ultimately comes back also inChrist on infinite earth says,
as Clark Kent Um, awesome,awesome, back also in christ on

(48:29):
infinite earths.
As as clark kent um, awesome,awesome, awesome stuff.
Um, and then obviously supermanand lois you know being the
ending of it, um, you know thework that that entire cast and
crew did, um, and justunabashedly being superman, like
from tone to mannerisms, toeverything and it's such a
different approach to Superman,which I think it's something

(48:50):
that we hadn't seen ever beforein live-action.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
It's just one simple thing Give him kids.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Kind of like the Black Lightning thing.
Have him a little furtherremoved from being new.
Have him just be Superman.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Obviously, we didn't talk about Stargirl yet.
Hbo stepped in and was justlike, hey, we'll take some,
we'll take some stuff, and Ithink they did that after crisis
.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
They were like, wait a minute, we might be able to
invest into these shows and withstar girl, again, they followed
the same pattern, like they gotthis actress who can just
galvanize an entire show andthat's what they got with breck
messenger, like she's, she wastremendous to the point where
I'm putting my rankings in thehead star girl is high on that
list.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
It's the miss marvel, for when we were talking about
the shows, it's the one thatlike I wasn't expecting that
yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
So I mean, all that being said, um, let's just uh,
let's just start.
Let's just start talking somemoments and characters and yeah
you want to?

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Yeah, you want to volley some moments?
Yeah, I mean, who's your guy,gal or other in the DC in the
Arrowverse?
I mean I know who it is, yeahit's Oliver Queen.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
There's just something I don't know.
Just I loves not just the arcof that character but obviously
steven amell's portrayal of him.
But he brought when you got tothe crossovers there was this
gravitas that oliver had he'sbatman.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
He was fine, he was like he was the.
He was the one that, like every, and he even says, like you
guys all have powers, I, I don't, but you still will listen to
me.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
I just remember the Invasion crossover.
When they're all together andSisko, they're arguing back and
forth, they're like we need aleader whatever.
And Sisko goes well.
I trust Oliver.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Obviously he's having a tiff with Barry, and again
that goes to this universe ofthese crossovers.
They still have to navigatetheir own show's current story.
That was going on and theybleed them into the crossover as
well.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
But yeah, oliver Queen, it was always like the
thing, like he had this likecalming presence and then,
ultimately, when he dies inCrisis, you're like that's like
I'm superman's there and itstill felt like they killed
superman.
I'm like man, he can't actuallybe gone right like this, like
that's not, that can't.

(51:14):
That's oliver queen man to thepoint where, like when he comes
back in the flash, that lastseason of flash, when he came
back, it was the greatest thingever, like he played all the
hits, you know.
So for me, for me it's oliverlike and you know stephen
amell's portrayal and wow,harrison ford just showed up.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
I just was gonna say the exact same thing.
I was just thinking.
We both have the game awards upright now and everybody's
freaking out because harrisonford just walked out.
That's incredible.
Um, wow, all the last of uslive action actors are there.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
Besides Pedro Interesting.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
But yeah, Stephen Amell man, his ascent from CW,
good looking guy to bona fidelike actual actor.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, to the point where, like Netflix, gave him a
show with his cousin, which waspretty cool yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
He played Firestorm, which is pretty cool.
So for me yeah, for me it'sOliver.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
And then for you, I mean you can just say it's barry
allen.
I mean it's funny, like I don'tknow, and even like even our
relationship is like this, whichI think is the funniest thing
ever.
Yeah, like this is a veryoliver barry relationship too.
Like I mean you want to talkabout like just like a sweet man
, you know what I mean.
Like just like a sweet man, youknow what I mean.
Like just like a sweet person,a sweet presence, and like he
was the hope, like he was thewhole part of this universe and

(52:33):
like they were Batman andSuperman, like he was the whole
part.
And like you want to talk aboutGrant Gustin, like we talk about
the Stephen Amell thing of.
Like he molded himself, likeGrant Gustin walked in being a
good, really good actor.
Like he walked in being areally good actor, he walked in
somebody you can root for weekin, week out.
And like again, you want totalk like your Christopher
Reeves is like your people thatare like you know they have that

(52:55):
feeling of like there's more.
I feel like Grant Gustin alsohad that bit of more, like he
had that angst early in seasonone, but like once he faded away
from that.
And like especially you getinto season two, season three,
like for as whatever happens onthe later seasons of the Flash,
like one shining piece to holdthrough was Grant Gustin.
It's always him and like, evenlike because this is just

(53:16):
development in general in lifelike even Grant Gustin still got
better, Like he still got.
And then, like you know, youchange his character, you give
his character some children aswell too.
Like he turned into that father, like but I can't say enough
great things about Grant Gustinand like how much of like a
backbone he is to this universeof like I get again like he's
the perfect inverse to Oliver,like he is like this hopeful,

(53:37):
you know, somewhathappy-go-lucky, like this, like
triumphant character, I think isthe best thing to describe him.
And it's just and like.
The Flash was already one of myfavorite comic book characters
as well too, and you know thisabsolute hit that they came out
with like.
I remember like we always talkabout it this way, like when
normal, like when regular peoplethat like aren't obsessed with
this are like week in, week outtalking about did you watch the

(53:58):
Flash, did you watch it?
That's when I knew thisuniverse had some.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
It shows you, that's not a birthmark cole no, come on
, man, that guy's also in the cwhe is, he's jimmy olsen.
He's james olsen.
Yeah, my bad, he's too cool tobe jimmy olsen.
Um, yeah, so I'll.
I mean oliver and barry,obviously easy ones.
Um, just a couple, I guess acouple I also want to highlight

(54:24):
um wentworth miller, yeah, ascaptain cold, just kind of like
your Grant Gustin thing.
Just stepped on set and you'relike wait, is he the best actor
on the planet?
Understood the assignment ofplaying Captain Cold but also
giving that character a littleoomph, which culminates in
Legend Season 1, which isobviously his finest hour as

(54:45):
Captain Cold.
There are no strings on me.
I mean, granted, they tried theguy and gal relationship with
him and Sarah and just didn'twork.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
I mean I'll throw it over to the villain side.
I mean I just want to.
I mean I'll let you take thearrow and I'll take the flash
one if you want unless you wantto switch actually, I'll take
the arrow and you take the flashone.
I'll take the Flash one if youwant, unless you want to switch.
Actually, I'll take the Arrowone, you take the Flash one
because he turned out to be theultimate villain of this entire
universe.
But I mean, I'll talk ManuBennett for a second.
You want to talk like somebodythat?
Because Malcolm Merlyn, theactor John Bowerman, yeah.
John Bowerman.

(55:19):
Like incredible.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Oh, we love John.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
Bowerman, one of those situations where he's like
a Loki, like he's going to bein this for a while.
Like you don't have to worryabout him leaving.
But Manu Bennett man, when hestepped in, like you want to
talk immediately, raising stakesand a reason immediately like
for a season two to be so.
Like cause a lot of times thiswill happen in shows.
Like the season two is likemight get a little comfortable.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Like you that was like an absolute kick drive, so
and it was to the point where,like manda bennett, we're like,
is he actually are we, are theyjust gonna do deathstroke?
And then he showed up in thefull gear and you're like, oh,
shoot, um.
But yeah, I mean, you're notgonna be able to look past any
villain on this in thisarrowverse and not talk about

(56:01):
tom cavanaugh yeah yeah, go off,go off, man.
Um, I would say tom cavanaughand matt letcher, to be honest
with you, like, just the conceptand character and execution of
the reverse flash, um in thearrow verse has, was nothing
short of just absolutelyremarkable.
Um, that, reveal the man in theyellow suit, reveal merry
christmas, yep.

(56:21):
Um, everything about reverseflash was just expertly handled.
Um, and he got.
He got a little campy at theend.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Everybody gets campy in this universe.
Even Oliver does.
Everybody, yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yeah, everyone gets.
He got a little campy at theend but still, anytime again, it
was anytime.
He spoke.
You, you heard it.
Um, and yeah, I mean just thereverse flash.
That first season of the flashis built upon, it's really just
built upon, the relationshipbetween Barry and Wells.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Why did you kill my mother?

Speaker 2 (56:52):
Because I hate you Dog.
Oh, new Witcher game Sick.
Yeah, yeah, I was just there,it is.
But yeah, I mean the reverseflash and you know it's a when
you go down the list of thoseArrowverse villains.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
It's a, it's a deep, it's a deep sleep, damn man, a
lot of them.
They keep alive too, which Iappreciate they keep a lot of
them alive like you're talkingabout Deathstroke.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
You're talking about Merlin.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Tobias Whale if you want to dip there.
Tobias Whale's a tremendous oh,you want to talk about
underrated.
What icicle you can throw inthere from stargirl as well?
Well too, icicle was a, he wasa problem a bona fide lunatic.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Yeah, yeah, he was.
But um, tobias whale is a greatone, I mean a villain so good
they just used him for theentire run of black lightning.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
However absurd that the scenarios became, he just
was a constant um prometheustalk about.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Talk about this was what this arrowverse did so well
, they took these charactersthat no one had heard of or gave
a shit about and they made themjust incredible either heroes
or villains.
Prometheus is probably the bestexample of that.
Prometheus is this d-tier,e-tier batman villain, um, who's
kind of sort of a darkreflection of batman, but not

(58:07):
really.
Yeah, um, that's kind of likehis backstory.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah, because what is what is he big he's?
I think he's pretty big in the,uh, in the grant morrison run
of batman, but like nobody'sthinking about prometheus, but
then, um, I always forget what'sthe actor's name.
Um steps in as well too.
And oh, you want to talk aboutone of the best bait and
switches as well too.
You just think.
You just know he's vigilantebecause, again, adrian chase
yeah adrian chase, like you justknow he's vigilante.

(58:32):
You dip into the comics like is,this is the area?
You just hop on.
You go on google like who isadrian chase?
That's vigilante, and they keptintercutting him with vigilante
.
They make it a point I thinkit's like the sixth or seventh
episode, I'm pretty sure, whereit's literally like he's got to
go.
Vigilante immediately shows upand you're like all right, just
oliver and the team are the onlyones that don't know he's
vigilante.
Like everybody knows it's him.

(58:52):
And then the bait and switch tomake him prometheus, like it's
to the point where, like heshowed up in in she hulk, we
couldn't trust he showed up andhe's, he's an abed el.
I can't trust him.
I can never trust him, everagain.
Um, tremendous villain, oh mygod.
Um, reinvigorated arrow,because, arrow all intensive
purposes was about to die, likethat show was.

(59:14):
Like might not have recoveredfrom that season four, yeah,
season five of arrow got arrow.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
It's happy ending, yeah essentially yeah, um, got
us to cry, son.
And for there's got us, youknow, three more seasons of
arrow, which is built on theback of josh cigar's performance
as prometheus and and stevenamell's counter performance as
all of which I think, I stillthink.
I think season five of arrow isthe best.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Probably he was, yeah , yeah because, finally, this is
the actor I wanted to and Iliked it.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
man um, trying to think of other villains, I mean
Supergirl villains, I think areprobably the weakest.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Sure, but I still have a lot of mental capacity.
It's held for Reign in seasonthree.
I think that was probably themost.
I think it was the mostpersonal, technically personal
villain that she'd had to her aswell, too, I think she was
pretty.
Yep, she's the most memorable,my opinion.
I don't think maxwell lord, orI forget, um, it's her.
Who is it?
It's her aunt or whatever isthe villain of season one.
I forget what it is but um, Ithink rain is the one that was

(01:00:15):
like the most personal stake.
You like rooting for her a bitas well too.
I always like to say that's oneof the best dog walk like.
So this is how the arrow verseis set up the penultimate, you
do the crossover in the episodeeight and then the episode nine
is the mid-season finale forbefore the winter break, and
that's when you dog walk thehero and you want to talk about
rain, dog walking, supergirl,throughout this, throughout.

(01:00:36):
Um, what city were they in?
They were in national city,national city.
Yeah, dog walked her throughnational city.
I was like now, that's how you,that's how you go into a
mid-season finale yeah, yeah, ohyeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
I mean, we can talk about our favorite dog walkings
real quick.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Oh, I mean, I know what my number one will always
be.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
It's when.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Zoom just demolished Barry To the point where Barry's
speed wasn't even gone.
He was just like I can't walkanymore.
He's like Barry, you're here.
He's like I don't want to be.
That was bad.
That was bad.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Yeah, Zoom.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Man Zoom Teddy, Sears man Teddy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Sears and Tony Todd, tony Todd.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Oh, RIP Tony Todd who did the voice.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Who did the voice of Zoom proper when he was masked
up?
Yeah, I mean, oliver got kickeda few times.
I mean the Ra's al Ghul one ispretty notable, yep, because
again Oliver had that aura ofinvincibility about him, like,
even though he was human, likeeven though he was a human man,
um, he had that aura ofinvincibility about him, like he

(01:01:36):
can't lose a fight, like a handto hand, like, yeah, the dark
archer kicked him a bit but herecovered.
Um, and then raz al ghul juststraight up, kills him and
you're like wait a second.
Stabbed him straight up, killshim, and you're like wait a
second.
Stabbed him, kicked him off amountain, and you're like it's
traumatizing.
You're like wait a second.
And then I mean Legends ofTomorrow never really had that.

(01:02:00):
I mean the Legion of Doompretty much does it.
But Legends again was a littlemore lighthearted, so like they
never really get, except forseason one.
Vandal Savage does it.
But legends again was a littlemore light-hearted, so like,
yeah, they never really get,except for season one.
Vandal savage yeah, is that alaser gun?
That's the best arrowversemoment actually.
Um, I'm trying to think ofother villains the thinker um
great performance.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
I do agree with that just poorly executed, yeah,
especially once you it's sotough to write the smartest
character in the room characters, because the writers also need
to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Especially once you lose the actor.
They subbed him out at the endof the season for the.
What's the character's name?
The elastic guy.
What is his name?

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Oh, what's his name that got removed from the
universe.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Yeah, so he becomes the stand-in for the thinker,
the elongated man.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Yeah, he did me ralph did me.
That's it, oh no, from softgame sick um, this is gonna be
what the last few minutes ofthis is.
We're just gonna interject um,interject some game award stuff
into this, yeah trying to figureout what this is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
It's not bloodborne, it is from soft, though.
Is it another dark souls game?
Hmm, hmm, it's looking verydark souls.
He, I'll see what happens in.
The title card pops up Um man,what was I talking about?
Oh, the thinker.
Yeah, who else was villains?
Godspeed?
I remember being really cool.
We were really hyped forGodspeed and it just didn't.
Disappointment, bigdisappointment for Godspeed.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
I mean you want to talk about John Cryer as Lex
Luthor and then subsequentlyMichael?

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Kudlitz yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
And two very different, but two very really
good performances I like theCryer performance as the
businessman.
Lex Luthor and he's the CW one,but then you get into the
Superman one.
That's like a little Kudlitz,when this final season when he

(01:03:52):
becomes like lex luther, likeproper, and he like shaves his
head, shaves the beard.
They do such a good role intoit as well too.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Yeah, and you're like , oh shit, yeah like that oh,
this is super, wait a minute.
Um, yeah, cutlets, hisperformance is on, just he's on
another level.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Man, it's tremendous because this is the lex luther
that's finding like I.
I don't sick of this I'm sickof like, I'm sick of super, I'm
sick of this I'm sick of.
Superman, I'm notbusinessmanning, I'm not CEOing,
I'm not power suiting.
Let's fight.
I'm ruining your whole life.
Let's just fight and I'm goingto give you the worst thing ever
.
I'm taking down Superman andI'm taking down Lois Lane.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Yep, which is a great take on it.
Any other characters you wantto talk about?

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
I mean the last one, um, before maybe we just get out
some awards, we can just getthrough some awards is it's
tyler hecklin as superman?
That's the last one.
I really just want to like,yeah, highlight and talk about.
I mean he really you want totalk about like the closer in
baseball, like he was the closerin baseball that came in and
shut the game down.
Unbelievable that that firstepisode he shows up in supergirl

(01:04:45):
.
That I'll never forget thatfeeling, like I.
There was a feeling that Ican't put into words you could
tell right away.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
You can tell right away that he just got it, and I
mean I mean the world now oh no,it's another elden ring dlc.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
No, rob's not gonna sleep for years now man this is
crazy.
Oh no, I should have known bythe frame rate too, because the
frame rate was very Elden Ring-y.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
But I didn't put two and two together.
Man Game of the Year 2026?
.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Night Rain.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Another Elden Ring DLC.
All right.
Tyler Hoechlin man, yeah.
When he shows up that firstepisode of Supergirl and just
him on the phone with PerryWhite, he's like yes, mr White.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Right, yep, I understand Mr White, yes, he
said.
Well, actually, mr, I said waita minute, like wait a second,
and then he looks at the app andyou're like wait, wait a second
.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
And then he shows up when he does that first
crossover and he confrontsDeegan Evil, superman.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
He's like hi, yeah, and he looks he goes nice suit.
I'm like no, he gets it, hegets it, he gets it, he gets it,
he gets it.
But then super superman andlois gets announced and you're
like okay, another cw show.
And this is like, this is wherethe cw, the cracks were really
starting.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
final fantasy oh, it's the pc version of rayburn
oh okay.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Um, this is where the this is where the cracks were
becoming ever so apparent.
Improved lighting, thank you,thank you.
Thank you, pc.
Um, this is where the crackswere starting to become quite
glaring, but then hbo becomingever so apparent.
Improved lighting, thank you,keep going, keep going.
Thank you, pc.
This is where the cracks werestarting to become quite glaring
, but then HBO was like we'llhelp out a bit.
Yeah, here's some HBO money.
That first episode like I canshow that pilot of Superman.
I remember, I remember this isfunny my father was home and we

(01:06:23):
watched the pilot and he waslike wow, that was actually
really good.
Like it was like a mini movie.
You get moved by it From thejump.
Yeah, because they hit.
You understand, this is anolder Superman.
He's not old, but he's a littleolder.
Like you bring all yourSmallville classics Lana Lang
Obviously Lois is with him andthis is a family drama.

(01:06:45):
Like they built a family dramawith hbo's money for the cw and
that first episode is like theperfect chef's kiss.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Yeah, when he reveals himself to his sons, like the
acting.
You just feel you like, youjust feel moments in that show
in ways that that you just don't.
There's actual cinema in thisshow.
Oh yeah, oh, my god, yeah, um,but man, that's just the moments
.
Quiet moments in the show areincredible.
Um, the family drama isn'tgreeting, no, which I think is

(01:07:16):
super important, especially forlike these cw shows where we'll
talk about, like you know, stuffthat didn't work and I think a
lot of the teen kind of dramadoesn't, doesn't land for me.
But the superman and loisthere's a maturity to the drama
that feels real, like, fromwhether it's jordan having like
anxiety that feels real.
You know what I mean to like.

(01:07:38):
I mean all the stuff in seasonthree with lois and the cancer,
and what season I mean we'lltalk.
Obviously I don't want this todevolve into the superman lois
podcast, but that season three,the idea of lois having cancer
and it being the one thing thatsuperman can't save her from so
much.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
I mean, obviously I hate it, and how like and how
you see the struggle in him, thewhole season of being like man
that, that that scene where he'stalking to that other woman
that has cancer, and I'm like wedon't deserve this show because
she has no idea.
Obviously she has no idea thatshe's talking to literal
Superman, who's another cat game.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
You could never be stray maybe we'll do a stray
crossover but yeah, man god,tyler Hoechlin.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Alright, let's give out some awards, yeah yeah,
let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
Let's go through our tier list.
Um, do you want to do theuniverse specific ones or do you
want to roll through ours first?

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
we'll roll through ours first, I guess through ours
.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
First, let's talk some, let's give some awards out
.
We haven't done this in a while.
I don't know, because we didn'tdo it for gladiator we did not
do it for gladiator just givedenzel all the awards yeah, yeah
, denzel actually, denzelactually didn't have to work for
any of the awards.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
Whatever movie you reviewed before gladiator didn't
deserve them is what theconsensus I came to was.
I don't remember what moviethat was no, we did before
gladiator.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah, what did we do before gladiator?

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
I don't know, but I remember specifically we're not
giving awards because they don't.
It didn't deserve it.
What movie could it have beenthat we hated that much?

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
No, we didn't hate the movie, did we?
Or did we just not need to giveout awards for this movie?

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
No see, now you're making me want to look it up.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
See, we're so famous now where we can't even remember
the episodes that we're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Whatever movie, oh Joker, yeah, that's right, it
was Joker 2.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Yeah, you're right, no awards.
You're right, no awards for you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Joker too um I won't, let's, let's just let's run
through all these best cinemamoment in the arrow verse yeah,
man, it's gonna be hard not tosee superman and lois, right,
sure, yeah, I mean, um, Ispecific, specific cinema moment
, huh, I, you know what I'mgonna say.
It's the the runawayinosaurepisode of the Flash.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
I fear that the Flash is going to own a lot of the
most emotional moments.
The Flash- might take the reinson that one, Because that is
just Ooh.
I'm glad you said that one.
You know which one I'm going touse.
I can't remember if it was theFlash episode or the Legends
episode, but the one withCaptain Cold and his younger

(01:10:10):
self, I think that was theLegends episode.
It was the Legends episode.
Man, oh man, out of a seasonone to start attacking like that
well, that's you know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
They had so much confidence in Wentworth Miller
to be like this is it's supposedto be a show about Hawkman and
Hawkgirl, but Captain Cold andWhite Canary are the actual main
characters of the show.
And that episode, yeah, when hegoes back and he gives his
younger self a pep talk,basically saying like, hey, it's
going to be all right, yeah.
Like be there for your sisterand it's going to be all right.

(01:10:42):
And he just kind of like I'mlike oh shit, went.
I'm like oh shit, wentworthMiller, you're doing the acting
Wentworth.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Miller, best actor to join the franchise.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Ooh, I mean, how deep can we go, whatever you want,
because obviously Grant GustinWe'll talk after or do you want
to talk like supportingcharacter, basically?
We'll do supporting character.
This might be controversial,given you know my stance on this

(01:11:15):
character's relationships.
I'm going to say Emily BetteRickards as Felicity.
Okay, I think she's a genuineinjection of those first few
seasons of Arrow before, like,the Olicity drama takes over the
show.
She's a legitimate injection oflike this character's awesome
Like for this show.
That's good.
He needs her in this show.

(01:11:37):
He bounces off of Diggle, butthey have a different
relationship, sure, whereasFelicity comes in and she's just
like this.
She belongs in the Flashuniverse, but she's stuck in the
Arrow universe and I feel likethat was always the best thing
for her until she took over theshow.
Yeah, in seasons four andonward.

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
That's good.
I'm going to think 2020 Vision.
It's Brandon Routh.
2020 Vision, thinking all theway through and to culminate, to
finally get the Getting himback as Superman.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
There's a lot of people that you could pick for
this, to be honest with you.
I mean into the Arrowverseproper, like Chris Williams when
they brought him in for BlackLightning immediate.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
I can go to Beck Bresinger as well and say the
same exact thing.
It's the same concept.
Like this universe legends isthe only one we won't use for
this, but each of the maincharacters for every single show
, every single last one of themhit.
Yeah, every single last one ofthem yeah um favorite side
character.
Uh, three, two, one jesse lmartin yeah, joe west.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
Um, this is a great category for this universe, in
particular because there are awell, they built a whole tv show
around side characters.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Yep, I mean, you know what I'll remix.
It's gonna be, it's gonna bemartin stein.
You know, I'm gonna save thatone.
Actually, I'm gonna save thatone.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
I'm gonna stick with joe west and I'm gonna save
jesse l martin's great, I meanagain one of those like steady
hands, reliable.
We're getting an actor's actoron set, someone who's done he
did a bajillion seasons of lawand order um, we're sliding him
into the detective role likehe's gonna, he's gonna crush it
and then he's just gonna that.
Joe west's dad, dad wisdom,yeah, that he's just famous for.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
Jesse L Martin.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
If I had to pick a different one that wasn't Jesse
L Martin.
Man, it's tough.
I'm going to say I might go toBlack Lightning on this one and
say James Remar, that's actuallypretty good, Similar to the
Jesse L Martin thing.
Obviously you have CressWilliams already, but you're
going to bring in anotheractor's actor.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
To to that point.
For that character, you have tohave a little bit more of
something, because you have tocounter chris williams at the
end of the day.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Like you need, like you need, instead of like a,
instead of like a felicity or acisco, you need like an alfred
right for black lightning, andthat's, they got that what jay
did?
Yeah, he's like he's likealfred for black lightning, like
right, which I thought wasreally a really inspired and
again kind of like surprisingcasting that like damn they got.
Like james remar, I'm for thecw, cw, james remar, what are

(01:14:20):
you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
um, oh, the saddest moment all start.
It's easily when Barry goesback in the Splash, season 1,
and he can't save his mother.
He's like it's your Barry momand she's just like I don't
understand.
He's like, wait, barry, and sherealizes that it's actually him
.
I don't even want to thinkabout it anymore.
The.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
Flash has two of those.
It's that and it's the death ofhis father, which is man.
Oh god, I can't.
I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
I'm a jurist man.
It's the death of his fatherwhich is man man.
Oh God, I can't, I can't, man,I can't, I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
What's yours, man?
It's the death of Martin Stein.
Man.
Talk about something that youjust didn't see coming Like at
all.
Mm-hmm, you're like you can'tkill a legend Like they're the
fun, yeah they're the fun ones.
They're the fun, whimsical ones.
Like you can't and like thatmoment, like when they're split
and Stein gets shot, your heartdrops and you just realize like

(01:15:15):
there's no way out of this, likehe's going to die, and he
starts telling Jefferson aboutlike his daughter like that he
just established thisrelationship with and it's in a
crossover of all things.
so you're like they're all gonnamake it like the crossovers,
like this, like the you knowit's the fun, it's the comic
book thing like they're gonnaall team up and have a fun

(01:15:37):
adventure and beat the bad guyand all go their separate ways
and go their separate ways.
Like no one's actually supposedto die in these things, I think
.
Granted, oliver dies in christon infinite earth that was
pre-planned.
Yeah, you knew that was cominglike yeah, you knew you didn't
know it was gonna happen, thefirst episode of christ's son of
the earth.
But man, martin stein thing andvictor garber again your
cinema's victor garber likeactor's actor like brought so

(01:15:59):
much gravitas to that martinstein role from when he first
shows up as as the professormartin stein and then he's him
and he has two.
He obviously is with Robbie andMel the first time and then
obviously hits his stride withFran's drama as Jefferson
Jackson and Firestorm isincredible.
I love that character and boththose actors bring so much to

(01:16:21):
the role.
But the death of Martin Steinlike that hit me, like that hurt
, Like that one hurt uh.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
Best relationship it's martin stein and and
jackson yeah, that's, that's theone.
That's why I specifically savedthat one.
That is the best relationship.
And then it's maybe not, butfor me it is, it's so good man I
can just spitball these.
I mean I can go superman lo.
Yep, that's a big one.
I can do Jonathan and Jordan aswell too.

(01:16:51):
They have a pretty specialrelationship as well too.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Oliver and.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Dig, oliver, and Dig, that's one of the first
inceptors of this entire thing.
You can go Black Lightning andhis daughters on top of that too
.
You have so many different onesyou can pull from in here.
I mean, yeah, I didn't do likethe breakfast clubby teen piece
from from stargirl, like there'sso many different places.
They're good.
You know, it's a sad moment inthis universe when, um, what's
the magician from stargirl?

(01:17:15):
What was his name?
Yeah, when, when, uh, when,when his son died.
Oh, my god, I'll never forgetthat.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
I said wait a wait, wait, no um, yeah, there's a lot
of good ones.
Um, uh, no, I'm not sayingbarry and iris and I'm not
saying all of them.
Felicity, those relationshipswere fine.
You could do dig and lila, for,like the, I like digging lila.
I mean, realistically, the bestone is probably clark and lois,
right?

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
I think it's.
It's either clark and lois or Idon't know man, that Black
Lightning, and it's Jeffersonand his daughters.
I think that one's a really mygirls.
Yeah, my girls, that's thebackbone of the only reason that
he kept going.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Variations of John Wesley Shipp and Grant Gunston.
Oh my, God, that's a really goodone, Whether it's Barry and his
dad, whether it's Barry andJake Eric, or whether it's Barry
and Older Barry, those twotogether just click.
They just work together really,really well.
Most heroic moment I mean I'mbiased for this one it's
Oliver's sacrifice in Christ'sUnder the Fingers.

(01:18:21):
That's a really good one.
That frame talk about cinemamoments that frame of him
reaching back and there'snothing in his quiver and he's
staring down like the demons,whatever they are, sort of
discount parademons, and likehis quiver's empty, and you're
like, oh no, like this is it?
Like it hits you, like it hitsyou in that moment Cause, like

(01:18:41):
you know, Christ on InfiniteEarths is basically, they set it
up that Oliver was going to dieLike he knew.
But you get to the end of thatfirst episode and like he shoots
the monitor and like just likedisables them.
Like barry like is calling outto oliver and he vanishes and
it's just oliver by himself andhe reaches back and the quiver
is empty and he just like youjust see it like in his eyes

(01:19:02):
where, like he knows, and hejust kind of like deep sighs and
like the music swells and heruns in there and then next time
you see him, he like appears onthe bed and you're like, ah
shit.
And like all these like it'sfunny because like the way they
frame it is like all these superpowerful dc characters like are
surrounding the green arrowyeah, it's like the flash is

(01:19:25):
there.
Supergirl is there.
The green arrow yeah, it's likethe flash is there.
Supergirl is there, superman isthere, and they're all just
like watching like god die.
You're like, oh shit.
Um, also, my real answer forbest introduction to the
universe is katherine mcnamara,as me, but we'll save that for

(01:19:45):
another category.
Um, what's yours?

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
my most heroic moment .
I can mean I can easily go burythe end of season one, him
jumping into that portal and notknowing what's gonna happen,
and to him be such a young heroto us also not knowing what's
gonna happen.
Yeah yeah, that's man, that'swhen that universe had the
absolute juice.
When you're like, yep, I'mintrigued.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
Season one of the flash ends with him jumping into
a wormhole and you're like, yep, I'm intrigued.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
Season one of the Flash ends with him jumping into
a wormhole and you're like,excuse me, that can't be it.
No, that was, and that in factwas not it.
Open the multiverse for thewhole universe.

Speaker 2 (01:20:16):
Welcome to.
Earth 2.

Speaker 1 (01:20:17):
What?
There's another Earth, huh,multiple Earths.
Infinite scroll infinite earths, talos.
He said how many earths arethere?
Talos?
Infinite?
Oh my god.
Oh my god, you knew and youdidn't want me to know.

(01:20:38):
I don't think there's enoughroom in this universe.
I think that's your style.
The monitor to the?
Oh my god.
Oh my god, yeah, I'm gonna haveto go with that one.
That's your stuff.
The monitor to the end oh myGod, yeah, I'm going to have to
go with that one.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
That's a good one.
A crisis is imminent,something's coming.
Someone way more powerful thanmyself, uh-oh.
Also, shout out to CaptainCold's Sacrifice.
There are no strings on me.
It's pretty good.
Earth 90, barry Allen, sacrryallen sacrifice oh, that's good,
that's really christ onoffenders um black lightning
also.

Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
Well, he gets replaced.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
He was gonna so yeah, um the wells, the sacrifice of
wells.
Wells is plural, um, at the endof the season seven of the
flash, it's either six or sevenwhen he talks to the different
wells.

Speaker 1 (01:21:29):
Superman, season 3.
Superman and Lois, season 3.
Against Doomsday, greatDoomsday, dang Doomsday.
Every time, superman, they'reDoomsday scissors.

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
Yeah, there's a lot of good ones.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
Let me run through.
Let's do this favorite legacy.
Actor in this universe.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
I was going to say, yeah, I was going to bring that
one up.
I was going to bring that up asa category, like favorite, kind
of like not cameo, but, likeyou know, homage casting.
I guess you can say yeah mine'seasily.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
It's john wesley ship .
I don't even that's probablythe correct answer.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
Um, I'm just gonna say kevin conroy.
Um, just seeing him play someversion of ruse wayne in live
action was just like catharticright for.
Like anyone that grew up onbatman, the animated series like
man clark always serve intosomething with a name or a flag
or a badge and I'm like that'sbatman dude, like that's batman,

(01:22:25):
like I don't care, I don't carethat he's beating up supergirl
and batwoman, I don't care, he'sbatman like um, what's your
favorite heat check performance?

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
I have a weird wild dog.
Wild dog is good.
I have a weird way to thinkabout mine.
It's legends of tomorrow itselfis a concept, because I don't
understand.
You know what it actually is.
It's probably star girl, if Iwant to think about it that way
even in the heat of battle, hedon't miss yeah, star girl came
in immediately.
It felt different, like it feltdifferent.

(01:22:55):
Obviously it was coming out onhbo max at that time too, but it
felt different.
It was one of the bestweek-to-week watches that I'd
ever had in this universe aswell, too, and this is deep into
this universe like a week toweek.
I'm invested in this.
I was really surprised at doestitan scan into this whole
conversation technically?

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
technically, because there's that one episode of
titans where beast boy goes intothe multiverse and grant gustin
runs around him not actualgrant gustin and then he well,
he crosses over into Stargirlyeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
I don't know man.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
Um, he checked, he checked performance by Firestorm
.
If I had to, sorry man, if Ihad to pick an actor, I mean,
you want to talk about someonethat was just like he became.
He was like the main villain ofa season, but like, as soon as
he came on screen, like the vibewas different.
And it's Neil McDonagh asDamien Dark.

Speaker 1 (01:23:42):
You want to talk about having fun.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
Can we talk about a guy just hijacking any scene or
season of TV he's in?
I would say Damien Dark.
I would also say Matt Letcher'sreverse Flash, to the point
where they finally brought himback at the end of the Flash
season 8 and then he gotreplaced again by Harrison Wells
.
Not those guys.

Speaker 1 (01:24:06):
These Harrison Wells, not those guys, these guys.
Funniest moment.
This might be one of thetoughest ones that we've ever
had.
Oh man, I'm just going to keepthis very simple because it's
very early in this universe.
It's the black driver joke.
I think it kills me everysingle time.
That's pretty good.
Just your black driver Typecastmeans your black driver time.

Speaker 2 (01:24:23):
That's pretty good.
I'm just your black driver.
Typecast means you're a blackdriver.

Speaker 1 (01:24:26):
That's pretty good, oh, you know what it is.
It might be early, oliver.
It's funny how Arrowverse, orArrow season one, is like
supposed to be the least funnyout of all these shows.
Oh god, he's hilarious but thenit's like it's also hilarious
it's incredible you know whatthe funniest thing in this whole
universe is?
It's Oliver's voice change towhen he's the Arrow versus when
he's Oliver Queen.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
He goes up an octave he goes to like Well, yeah, he
does the.
He's natural Stephen Amell whenhe's Oliver Queen.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):
When he's Oliver Queen, when he's party boy,
oliver Queen.

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):
The Black Driver joke is pretty good.
It's just like the Looneyoneytunes nature of lance versus the
hood.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Oh, oh, never mind, it's the um.
You know what it is.
It's the groundhog day episodeof legends.
It's hilarious.
That episode always kills meyeah, the looney tunes.

Speaker 2 (01:25:18):
Nature of season one.
Lance versus the hood is prettyfunny, where, like he's pinning
Lance to cars, he like puts himup against the car and he's
like, detective, you need tolisten.
And he's like I'm going to getyou and he never gets him.
Are you the man in this picture?
Maybe, but he's like talking toLaurel about the lie detector

(01:25:40):
and he's like I kind of want totake the polygraph and if I fail
, best exposition dump.
This is a good one is it themonitor explaining the concepts
of the multivit I was going to?

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
say the same thing, is it?
Last night I saw a superhero.
He was black.
Come on.
Man said this is for thestreets black lightning's back.
That is an exposition dump inthe theme song.
Is it early season one that is?

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
an exposition.
It's helping to really work.
It is, is it no?
Is?
Is it early season one?

Speaker 1 (01:26:07):
no, don't talk about the monologues.
Don't do it the name of theisland no no, it's Baron Ryder
explaining everything in seasonfour of Bear Girl.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
Mr Queen, look at this ancient artifact that I
found.
Baron Ryder could easily win,actually that might be the
funniest moment is Baron Ryderinexplicably trusting Oliver.
It's my white savior character.
I'm in All of a sudden.
You're my right-hand man.
What?

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
Yeah, the one guy on the island that's been with him
the whole time.
He said come on, man.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
This is a man with vision, and then he betrays him.
You know who's not a man withvision, wanda Sorry.
How could you do this to me, MrQueen?
You've betrayed me.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
Best source material callback.

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
I'll tell you what One of my favorite early ones
was the Solomon Grundy thing.
Do you remember that?
Yeah, that's good when theyfound the Solomon Grundy story
on dude's kitchen table andDiggle read it out and I'm like
what?

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
And then they did Solomon Grundy in Stargirl.

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
Is it also the Batman being an urban legend?

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
I do quite like that, and they made Elseworlds such
this reliant piece on it and Ithink that's pretty good.
That's source material callback.
I mean I know the early Flashhas a lot of stuff they pull
right from the comics as welltoo it just like the integration
of all all three flashes yeah,within the confines of like one
oh you know what it is.

(01:27:30):
It's when jay garrick's helmetcomes through and like, and then
the whole your mind, becauseyou have to wait a whole season,
you have to wait a whole offseason, so it's like the
multiverse concept coming into.
I love that the helmet comesthrough and Reverse Flash is
like I gotta go, I gotta go, man, that's pretty good.
Best NPC oh, it's Evelyn fromArrow, season 5.

(01:27:53):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):
No, artemis, they butchered that character.
They really did.
God, that was terrible.
I didn't like that.
That's the one thing aboutArrow Season 5 that I didn't
like that.
That's the one thing aboutArrow Season 5 that I didn't
like, because every characterwas so dialed in, except for her
.
They ruined the Artemischaracter pretty spectacularly,
to the point where they didn'treally care about yeah Best NPC.
Huh, is it the fire guy from?

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to get what he
never could Money.
You know, this universe isincredible, cause you can have
moments like from like Supermanand Lois, like these or like the
runaway dinosaur, but then alsoyou get these absurd episodes
where Iris becomes the flash andit's like this slapstick, like
90s comedy.
Is it the second?

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
iteration of the Royal Flush game that talk
nothing but oh yeah, yeah, andthen they're immediately dealt
with and the flash just clownsthem yeah, you know it's a good
relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:28:49):
That doesn't make any sense but still is good.
It's the family from like whenoliver makes a decision to be
like I'm not just gonna huntthese high-end criminals like,
I'm gonna hunt everybody I don'tdo street crime diggle and and
Diggle's like why not?
Man, that's messed up.
I just thought about thatFavorite action sequence.

Speaker 2 (01:29:07):
Oh, I like the Arrow Season 2 finale fight, the
constant flipping back and forthbetween Oliver fighting
Deathstroke on yeah, yeah incurrent day and him fighting him
on the island, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
I quite like that.
That's really good.
That's a really good one.
I'm going to go Superman versusJohn Henry Irons.
Woo boy, you want to talk aboutthe?
Oh, okay, you know what Newcategory alert Best?

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
reveal in the whole era.
I was going to say that, yeah,I mean, there's quite a few good
ones, but that John Henry Ironsone Lord, holy smokes.
You're not the man of Steel Iam, I am.
You're like whoa.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Because Rob was upset they were going to do a Black
Lex Luthor before that thatreveal is incredible, and they
do that constantly in their showtoo.

Speaker 2 (01:30:01):
Whether it's that, whether it's Lex turning Bizarro
into Doomsday.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
That was a really good one, and it's such a good
way to not waste time Like wastetime because you don't have a
lot of time.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
Not just Lex turning Bizarro into Doomsday, but just
the Bizarro concept in generalOf him being a Superman from an
alternate Earth.
That kind of gets warped intoBizarro Is really cool.
I'm a superhero, lois.
I go where people need me to goand then he just goes full
bizarro at the end.
But that john henry irons oneis wild.

(01:30:31):
It's actually wild like god.
That one is good.
Yeah, um, the reverse flash oneobviously is great I'm gonna
stick with my adrian chase oneadrian Chase.
One is tremendous, the Zoom one.

Speaker 1 (01:30:44):
Yeah, that Zoom one, oh yeah, well, that Zoom one had
everybody and, like I said,this is when this universe was
really starting to cook, likethat Flash Season 2, arrow
Season 4, unfortunately, arrowSeason 4 suffers a lot, but
that's when the universe overallwas getting super, super
popular.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
That Zoom reveal man, that scream, that grant lets
out when he's just fed up withbeing betrayed by his mentors.
It keeps happening if I had anickel for every mentor that
betrayed me, I'd have twonickels, but it's weird that it
happened twice man, man, thatthat zoom reveal is something.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
That zoom reveal is something man, um, we'll do.
Favorite line oh, woof, woof, Imean the that lightning, that
lightning berry.
I mean I'm, I'm gonna probablystill stick with it like the
like why did you kill my mother?
Because I hate you like I.
You want to talk about pure,like a pure hater, like an
actual person that just like Iactually like, because most

(01:31:41):
people are fake haters.
That is a real life, genuine.
I hate you from the bottom ofmy heart.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
I time travel, barry, I mean realistically, like for
me, and it's obviously just onethat's just gonna stick from now
until it's already.
You have failed the city, likethat's just.

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):
You're just like, you're just in, you're just in
on everything at that point,using the same logic, because
they play it right in the firstepisode.
It's run, barry, run I mean.
And then you, you can play itemotionally, you can play it
campy, you can play it so manyways, but I mean the, that
reverse, or you know what?
I'll go further.
The first reverse flash peptalk from episode one of like
how the lightning chose him.

(01:32:17):
I don't remember the exactquote, but like that whole.
That's like the firstmotivational speech where it's
like wait, am I, am I into this?
And we were, we were locked inI mean, yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):
You have failed the city for me, just because, like
when he comes back in flashseason eight, ramsey rosso, you
have failed this city and I'mlike, hey, we're so bad.
Yeah, we've never been more bad.
Um, favorite shot, um I'm stillthinking about lines.
You jumped this on me.
Oh, my bad um okay, give me aline.
The essence of heroism is todie so others can live, which is

(01:32:49):
all of it at the end of arrowthat's pretty good it's pretty
good.
It's pretty good man dang manfavorite shot.
Um, I feel like everything Ihave to pick from is Superman
and the Lost Beast, because Ijust think of that scene where
he floats in front of the sunsfor the first time and he's
silhouetted by the sun in thebackground and he flies up in

(01:33:11):
the air and it's that wide ofhim in front of the truck and
the kids and you're like that'sSuperman, dude, like it just is,
like that's the most Supermanthing I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (01:33:21):
I mean I can just pull from when they recreated
the original Superman number onefrom 1940.
Um, when they do the montagesequence in episode one.
Oh, when he catches the car hecatches the car and he's just
like that's a cool suit.
Thanks, my mom made it for me.
Like what were they cooking?

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):
I.

Speaker 1 (01:33:37):
I I remember watching that first episode of my like
draw dropped.
I like I couldn't believe itman, merry christmas.

Speaker 2 (01:33:44):
It's iconic.
You never forget where you werewhen you said that yep, merry
christmas, you're out ofmarshmallows I checked how'd you
get in my house?

Speaker 1 (01:33:54):
I haven't asked about marshmallows, we're not worried
about that favorite performance.
This is, wow, so many good ones.
Yeah, we'll do favorite villainand then favorite hero, so
we'll volley back between.
I mean, my favorite villainperformance is Manu Bennett.
Specifically for me, it's ManuBennett as Deathstroke.
I mean, you want to talk aboutthe ideology of instilling fear,

(01:34:14):
of like this hero cannot beatthis man.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
The highs and highs, the highs.
It's because he didn't overstayhis welcome in ways that Tom
Cavanaugh, I think, might have.

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
And you want to talk about a plan like an absolute
dialed in plan.
He had an absolute dialed inplan the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:34:30):
Also the moments, like the moment when he comes
back in season five, and I'llnever forget that moment where
Oliver, like they're talking tohim and Oliver's talking to him
and he's like you know, the Mirmirror crew wore off a long time
ago like I remember everythingthat I did.
Um, I killed your mom.
Like why are you asking me to?

Speaker 1 (01:34:49):
help you.
You want to talk about a oneword line choose.

Speaker 2 (01:34:53):
Oh man, that's one of the saddest moments in that
university's choose but whenoliver pulls out the, when
oliver pulls out the deathstrokemask and shows it to him and,
like you see, likeade recoil asif a ghost has just entered his
body.
Mando Bennett just understoodthat character's journey and,
like I said, the highs never gotlow with Deathstroke because

(01:35:14):
obviously DC made the CW takehim away until they were allowed
to reuse him again, whereas theReverse Flash obviously the
Season 1 highs of Reverse Flashflash were great but he never
quite gets back there.
No, it's tough as the reverseflash like there's a little bit
of season.
Was it season six?
When I love the um, the futurereverse flash when he kills all

(01:35:35):
those guys, when he or is thatseason five with nora?
yeah, yeah, season five when hisplan comes to fruition and he's
like the unfortunate thing is,gentlemen, you're all dead.
And then you're like, oh no,but he also, he never quite get
back to season one, thon,whereas like manu bennett, like
he's tremendous in season twoand then he goes away and he

(01:35:57):
comes back in season five andhe's great again.
So like it's probably the mostconsistent, um, because merlin
kind of suffers in the same waythat thon suffers, where he kind
of overstays a little bit.
Yeah, um, unfortunately, zoom.
It also happens to zoom, likewhen they bring him back in
season eight lord where he justbecomes a cop.

(01:36:17):
He loves killing cops.

Speaker 1 (01:36:18):
I don't understand um hero performance for me.
I'm going to go a differentroute for this one.
Not a different route becauseit's still 100% valid.
But I'm not going to pick GrantGustin because that's too easy,
or Tyler Hecklin.
I'm going to go with MelissaBenoist as Supergirl.
That's great.
I mean you want to talk aboutshe had some ultimate pressure

(01:36:39):
just from not being Superman.
Like she had some ultimatepressure right away.
She had the cbs money insteadof the cw money.
You know what I mean like.
So she had.
She had a lot of shoes to filland I mean from the first second
she is on the screen.
I buy her as supergirl.
I believe in her as supergirl.

Speaker 2 (01:36:55):
I love she's so good supergirl she does what
supergirl, what tyler hacklindoes superman like, and you know
what she does really well.

Speaker 1 (01:37:01):
She bounces off every single crossover character so
incredibly.
I love her relationship withbarry.

Speaker 2 (01:37:06):
Yep, I love it.
They're so magnetic together.

Speaker 1 (01:37:10):
I mean it culminates in that the musical yeah, the
duet, the musical is incredible,yeah it's just you want to
slice it yeah, they play on thefact that victor garber and
jesse l martin are, and johnbarman, yep our broadway alums.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
They bring in Darren Criss to play Music Meister,
which is an incredible bit ofcasting.
Shout out, glee, that musicalepisode.
I remember being like ugh,we're doing a musical episode.
And then I watched it and I'mlike this is amazing, everyone's
cooking.
Carlos Valdez was cooking inthat episode.
Is this a Transformers game?
Is it Transformers?
Is it Transformers or Warhammer?

(01:37:42):
I can't tell.

Speaker 1 (01:37:45):
It looks like Transformers.
It might be.
No, I don't think this isTransformers.
Nope, steel Hunters.

Speaker 2 (01:37:52):
It's Transformers adjacent.

Speaker 1 (01:37:54):
Now we get into the two most tough categories
Favorite character.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
I mean it's not that tough for me yeah me neither.
Also, I do want to shout outperformance-wise Katie Lotz.

Speaker 1 (01:38:04):
Oh yeah, yeah, that's a really good one too.

Speaker 2 (01:38:06):
As Sarah, lance, that character.
You never knew what was goingon with that character.
Is she just there to die?
Is she there to be part ofOliver's tragic backstory?
Then she comes back as BlackCanary and you're like, oh, this
is interesting.
Then she canary and you're like, oh, this is interesting.
Then she dies again and you'relike, oh, okay, so she's just

(01:38:27):
there to die.
Then she comes back and shebecomes the white canary and
like she has this whole arcabout her rebirth and then she
becomes one of the staples.
She becomes to the legends whatoliver was to his team.
Like she's the stabilizingforce.
Um, she has, unfortunately,like that.
I would have loved to have seenher integrated more back into
arrow, especially, like you know, after laurel dies.

(01:38:50):
Um, I would have liked to seenher like kind of vibe more with
the arrow crew.
Right, obviously you needed herfor legends because, like she
was like the driving force ofthat show, especially after you
lose wentworth miller in seasonone.
Like it's pretty much her showat that point, with a bunch of
supporting characters.
Um, but I love her performanceas Sarah.
Um, it was weirdly enough likethe relationship I bought the

(01:39:12):
most out of, like all ofOliver's relationships Cause
they were kind of like forged by, like equal fires, like they
were bonded by their trauma,which I always bought Right and
I liked that they leaned intothat a lot in.

Speaker 1 (01:39:25):
Um, yeah, season two, um yeah, also like the bit of
taboo nature behind theirrelationship of like there was.
You know, that wasn't anorganic relationship like they
were.
There was cheating involvedwhen that relationship started.
Yeah, and it's like again andthen that led into like they
were connected in ways that justoliver and and sarah never
could be.
Yeah, so, and yeah I mean theoliver and laurel, I mean oliver

(01:39:48):
and laura could ever or laurelcould have ever been I just they
just gave up on that yeah, tooquickly I agree, I think those
actors had a spark and theydidn't let them get that spark
when they both matured as actors.

Speaker 2 (01:40:02):
Yeah, that I think in a way could have been really
special.

Speaker 1 (01:40:05):
Even if it was, even if they played it you know how I
think about it even if theyplayed it as like because they
kind of touch on this if theyplayed it as like a Black Widow
and Captain America situation inthe later stages of the
Infinity Saga, that's exactlyhow I would have played it Like
our romantic relationship mightbe gone, but like we're still.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
I'm still tethered to you in a way that nobody else
and they play with that idea inseason at the end of season two
of arrow when she, when he is sobeaten down and he's down there
and he's like I can't beatslade and she goes.
I forget the exact dialogue is,but she basically says like I
know, I may not know anythingabout hoods and vigilantes, but
I know you, oliver, like I knowyou better than I know my own

(01:40:43):
name, like the like back of myhand.
She's like you don't, you don'tgive up, like that's your and
she's the one that pulls him outof his stupor, which is what
laurel should have always been.
But obviously felicity's testedbetter with the audiences, so
they, they move forward withthat being the relationship.
But it could have.

(01:41:03):
Laurel should have stuck aroundmore than season four.
We shouldn't have had to loseKatie Cassidy in season four.
I mean, we get her back, theybring her back with Black Siren
and they kind of hint.

Speaker 1 (01:41:16):
And then they sprinkled her in throughout the
multiverse.

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):
But one of my favorite episodes of Arrow,
weirdly enough, is the invasionepisode, the 100th episode.
Yep, and you look at whatOliver's.
I always make this argumentLike Oliver's ideal life that
he's dreaming about is beingmarried to Laurel Mm-hmm, like
that's what he wants in hisdreams and it's like Borderlands
4.
Borderlands 4.

(01:41:40):
Holy crap and Brutalance 4 andit's never referenced.
Don't get me.
You're gonna get me going.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
Don't let me get me going and then this is the one,
and I knew this was gonna be thetoughest one going in, you knew
this was coming Pete yourfavorite scene or moment in this
absolute universe.
I mean, it's hard to pick justone this is how I'm gonna
approach it, because you wannatalk about Coleman.
It's the fact that crisis oninfinite works earth's even

(01:42:08):
worked is the reason that's thebest thing, because each
character gets their shine.
Each character gets someintimate moments, they get their
action moments, and it's it'salso the fact that it was arrows
last season, for that as well,too, really plays into the
reason that it worked.
So, like it was the whole thingof like you're doing in
infinity war and end game, butyou still know iron man's the

(01:42:29):
main character.
It's the same thing you'redoing christ on infinite earths,
like captain america's stillthere, the flash is still there.
You know supergirl's stillthere, like thor's, but like
this is an iron man and this,this is a, this is a, this is an
arrow thing, like this is agreen arrow.
He is the main character and heis the block that built this
entire thing.

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):
Yeah, and they did it in a really tasteful, really
beautiful way too.

Speaker 1 (01:42:49):
Legacy.
Talk about the legacy of the DCcomics as a whole, the DC
landscape as a whole.

Speaker 2 (01:42:56):
Yeah, I mean it's hard to top that you can pick
man.
Yeah, people say they can bashthis universe all they want, but
there's some genuine momentswhere, like you feel things for
these moments.

Speaker 1 (01:43:09):
Yeah, did we just do the same thing at the same time?

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
What are you doing here, clive?
What is this?
Oh, is he going wait?
What is this?
What is happening?
What is going on in FinalFantasy 16?
I don't know.
What did final fantasy 16 showup?
Oh, he's in tekken.
Wait, excuse me, they'reputting clive in tekken.
That's, that's awesome.
Oh, they put clive in tekken,that's awesome.

(01:43:32):
Oh, that stage is sick too.
Oh, they gave him his driveform.
That's amazing.
Huh, all right, very cool.
Claves and tekken, that'sawesome.
Oh, he said, the only fantasyhere is yours.
Oh god, that's good.
Um, all of us moments.
Um, honestly, one of the mostsurprisingly moving moments for

(01:43:53):
me was arrow in arrow season.
Is it season eight?
yeah, season eight, when, whenthe kids come to the present
timeline and oliver's, this islike my, my daughter is here,
and like both Stephen Amell andKat McNamara, bring like their
games in that scene where she'sjust like cause her whole story
is like she's so distanced fromhim because he's obviously gone

(01:44:15):
at that point, and then she seeshim and they both are like
looking at each other.
Like this is like surreal Likethey play the surreal nature of
it so well.
Um, and I mean that you know, Ialways thought the mia queen
character had a little bit ofjuice to her.
Um, in a way, obviously we'renever gonna get to see.
Well, she was supposed to getthat show, yeah, which I think
could have been good.

(01:44:36):
Um, probably would have beendecent to like.
Okay, probably wouldn't havebeen great, but it probably
would have had moments.
Um, but that one sticks out tome.
Um, I like the first officialreintroduction of black
lightning, sure, when he suitsback up and he deals with those
guys at the motel, and it'sproperly brutal in a way that,

(01:44:57):
like, I kind of wasn't expecting.

Speaker 1 (01:44:58):
Oh yeah, I always say that black lightning has like
black lightning was the firstexample of that universe like
feeling a bit different.
I know he's technically on adifferent Earth too, but like it
felt a bit different.

Speaker 2 (01:45:08):
He slams some guy through a car and you're like
woo, woo, you're like oh Jesus,so that's good.
Obviously, the Flash has alitany of incredible moments.
I love when Jay pulls him outof the time stream and gives him
a talking to yeah, that's agood one, and he gives the
little cup.
The cup metaphor is effective,I think.

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
You know what's a good one?
That season finale of StargirlSeason 1, that big fight that
they have as well too, that'sdecently, not decently.
That's actually pretty welldone.
There's a lot of good momentsin Stargirl Season 1.

Speaker 2 (01:45:46):
There's a lot of good moments in star girl season one
.
There's a lot, a lot of goodmoments in there too, and I mean
, of course, obviously supermanand lois is littered with them.
It's just we're gonna, wedefault back to that a lot like
there's moments.
And then there's superman andlois moments, um, when you're
just like god, what is, what arethey doing to me?
Um, but all those, all theseshows have really really moving
moments.

Speaker 1 (01:46:05):
Um, even like legends , like in the later seasons, has
moments like um, I'm quite fondof Rip's relationship with his
wife and like cause, like I said, the most underrated character
in this universe I think it'sRip Hunter.
Like he's the one that like alot of the stuff moves through
him honestly to stuff movesthrough him honestly to the
point where, like they messedaround with this character a
little bit, like they made him avillain for a little bit, like
they were kind of gettinginnovative with this character

(01:46:26):
too, and I think it's theperformance that helps too.

Speaker 2 (01:46:28):
Yeah, arthur Darvill, yeah, who played Rip Hunter.
Like you know, he's like Doctorwho when he comes in.

Speaker 1 (01:46:37):
But with Rips that episode rips, hawkman dies.
Yeah, I'll never forget whenHawkman died and you texted me
like no way, no shot.
They killed this guy in thepilot episode Hawkman, you suck
I love.

Speaker 2 (01:46:51):
Can we just Hawkman corner for a minute?

Speaker 1 (01:46:52):
Yeah, just give me Because I got you this Funko.
Pop up here.
Hawkman is one of the best gaggifs that I've ever gotten you.
What they that I've ever gottenyou?

Speaker 2 (01:47:07):
what they tried so hard to make that character cool
.
Is he cool?
No, no, he wasn't.
Actually he's.
He's.
He's incredible, like to thepoint where, like he shows up in
that crossover and like cisco's, like trying to get what hawk
girl?
And then hawkman shows up andhe's like I'm the main character
.
He fights the flash and arrow,he knocks oliver off his bike,
which I'm like come on, stoptrying to make this a thing.
Then he dies, which is great.
Good for him.

(01:47:28):
Do you want to joke?
For the last part of this?
He comes back.
Yeah, of course he comes back.
They kill Vandal Savage and thenmy all time, my all time, maybe
my all time favorite Arrowversemoment is in the pilot of
legends tomorrow, where riphunter gets them, gets them all
together, and hawkman and hawkrow are there and rip hunter is
basically like have you guysheard of vandal savage and

(01:47:49):
hawkman's?
Like why did you say that name?
He's like we need to stopvandal savage from destroying
time and hawkman's like that'simpossible.
Like we dealt with vandalsavage and rip hunter's like did
you?
And he's like yeah, flashinggreen arrow killed vandal savage
and ruf punch is like ah see,that's the problem.
That's where you guys messed up.
You guys have to kill, you twohave to kill vandal, savage and
hawkman's like oh god and thenhe dies and vandal savage kills

(01:48:13):
him and then he comes back atthe end of at the end of the
season.
That's like evil hawkman, yeah,no nobody cares and he gets
snapped out of it.
And then we never see thosecharacters again.

Speaker 1 (01:48:24):
No, it's just crazy.
Like Hawkman and Hawkgirl aretwo big DC characters, they
didn't even make it into Crisis.
No, they didn't even get askedto come back.
Insane.
Let's end this on a little joke.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
Let's talk about fun stuff.
It's fast, is barry.
He's never fast enough, butit's always way too fast.
How fast is he?
How fast is he?
Sometimes he gets punched bynormal people right.

Speaker 1 (01:48:50):
Other times he can stop time yeah, literally he can
for like for hours.
He can stop time and have wholeepisodes, like when a nuclear
bomb has already exploded.

Speaker 2 (01:48:58):
One of the coolest episodes, oh yeah, time is real
aroverse, by the way, is theflash time episode super, super,
super low-key, underratedcharacter was Jesse Quick as
well too.

Speaker 1 (01:49:06):
Yeah, what's some wasted characters.

Speaker 2 (01:49:10):
Wally West.

Speaker 1 (01:49:11):
That's the absolute.

Speaker 2 (01:49:12):
Wally West is the biggest offender, and then
Hawkman and Hawkgirl, you can go.

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):
Yeah, you can maybe even go Ronnie as well too, but
I don't think it's as egregious,because they immediately got
jackson their relationship wasbetter.

Speaker 2 (01:49:23):
Yeah, yeah, I mean wally's.
The wally west character isprobably the biggest offender,
especially for, like, probablysomeone like you that like
probably grew up with the wallywest flash.

Speaker 1 (01:49:31):
Well, that's, and something I've talked about a
whole bunch too, is, like I knewjohn storden, wally west is
green lantern and flash firstbecause of justice league,
unlimited, like when that showwas really at its stride, I I
was like four, five, six, like Iwas growing up, and like in the
comics too I believe BarryAllen had came back at that time
, but like any toys that I like,even comics like it was Wally

(01:49:53):
West, like Wally West was theFlash and the fact that, like
you know, keenan Longsdale cookfor a little bit, but I don't
know what the relationship waslike between them, between him

(01:50:14):
and him, and CW and WarnerBrothers, because that is like
the prime example of you'retalking about.
You know it was.
It's funny because in thatuniverse sidekicks aren't really
a thing like the charactersthey chose to lead their shows,
don't truth?
It's obviously Oliver has, hehas, what's his name?
He is Roy, is Roy he getsArsenal, which is really well

(01:50:36):
done by by Colton Colton Hayes,yeah, Colton Hayes, just
littered with with littered withTeen Wolf alums.

Speaker 2 (01:50:43):
Yeah, I mean they had a real opportunity at one time
to toy with the Young Justicething.

Speaker 1 (01:50:47):
Yeah, they did.
They just didn't do it.
They really could have YepBecause you had.

Speaker 2 (01:50:51):
Like imagine.
I mean, obviously Legendsturned out to be great, but
imagine, in place of Legendsthey do Young Justice instead
with, you know, arsenal, kidFlash, but they just got the
ball.

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):
I think by the time Wally properly becomes Kid Flash
.
Colton Haynes is gone.
Yeah, I think he's long gone bythen anyway too.
But yeah, it's unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (01:51:11):
Other unanswerable questions why did John Diggle
give up being the Green Lantern?

Speaker 1 (01:51:15):
I don't know, man, I don't know.
I don't know, because the CWsaid this is Superman and Lois.
Let's be for real.
Um, john did diggle shows up insuperman and lois.
That was crazy.
Who?
Knows man maybe he's the airreverse john diggle, but he also
might not be, I don't know.
Man and lila gets name dropped.
I'm harbinger now she, that'sliterally.

Speaker 2 (01:51:36):
She literally says that, yeah, he has that whole
come to jesus moment, with thereverse flash of all people
about why he shouldn't be GreenLantern.

Speaker 1 (01:51:44):
Right, I don't know, man, you want to do the big one.
How does time travel work inthis universe?

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):
I'm going to do the reverse flash Time travel Barry.

Speaker 1 (01:51:55):
Do you understand how crazy it is that the writers
literally looked at us and justflipped us off and said it
doesn't matter, because Legendstime travel mechanics differ
from the Flashes?
When he time travels differsfrom the multiverse approach to
time.
Nobody knows man.

Speaker 2 (01:52:09):
Don I saw you die?
Or did you Time travel, Barry?
Yeah, I watched you get erasedfrom existence Multiple times.

Speaker 1 (01:52:16):
But there's multiple Earths, but then sometimes in
this universe they'll be likewell, a different decision will
create a multiple Earth.
But, then there's sometimeslike but time travel doesn't
change anything, the negativespeed force.
I don't even want to, I don'teven want it.
Man, if you talk about the four, the, what are some of the
dumbest?
The forces, the forces ispretty dumb oh, the forces man.

Speaker 2 (01:52:35):
Barry's mom is the speed force started as a good
idea, started as a touching ideaand then devolved into nonsense
nonsense, isn't dion?

Speaker 1 (01:52:43):
you remember dion?
The still force, still forcethe strength force, fuerza
fuerza.

Speaker 2 (01:52:52):
What happened, man?
Um, what else you know?
What's funny, though makingseason four of arrow about magic
at all, was what?
What an approach.
Oliver beat damien Dark withthe power of positivity.
I think so.
I think so, mr Queen.

Speaker 1 (01:53:06):
It did give us Baron Ryder though, yeah, yeah, maybe
the greatest character to comeout of this universe Magic
Season four of Arrow havingmagic was.

Speaker 2 (01:53:15):
We didn't need that.

Speaker 1 (01:53:16):
And anarchy, and not anarchy as a concept, it just
had the character of Anarchy andno one cared.

Speaker 2 (01:53:23):
Damien Dark was building Tranquility Lane
underground.
Nobody noticed and he was goingto launch all of the nukes.
Remember when Felicity nukedthat town and never talked?

Speaker 1 (01:53:31):
about it again.
Yeah, that was crazy.
Murdered all those heaps ofpeople.
She talked about it for a bit.
Remember Ragman?
Yeah man, oh yeah, one of ourfavorite characters in this
whole universe.

Speaker 2 (01:53:41):
The character's so OP that they had to write him out
of the show.
They did.

Speaker 1 (01:53:43):
They were like wait a minute, you can't be an arrow,
you're him, you can't be anarrow.

Speaker 2 (01:53:48):
Character's so OP.
They had to detonate him in anuclear explosion and he said
that nuclear blast destroyed myrags yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:53:55):
Huh, yeah, I don't know how this works what else?

Speaker 2 (01:54:01):
what else is good in the Arrowverse?

Speaker 1 (01:54:02):
the thinker as a whole.
Whatever the that scene, though, the thinker got a hallway
fight question mark, yeah, thatwas crazy, that was crazy, that
was nuts.

Speaker 2 (01:54:12):
I don't know man, the reverse flash just at any time.

Speaker 1 (01:54:16):
The lightsaber fight at the end of the Flash season 6
, oh, the, the season finale ofFlash no, or the series finale
of Flash no, or the seriesfinale.
We talked about it.
Execute Delta maneuvers what?
Why don't you guys practicethis?
If it's one thing I love, it'skilling cops.
Oh, I'll dive even deeper intothat.
When Savitar shows up, it's thefunniest thing because that's

(01:54:37):
also just Barry.
I think it's the funniest thingon planet Earth because Barry's
in that suit.
Then he just gets stabbed.
Yeah, how did he die?
He's wearing a metal suit.
I don't get it.

Speaker 2 (01:54:51):
He just got stabbed by Nora no.

Speaker 1 (01:54:53):
You know what they did for Godspeed.
They did the same thing thatEcho did to Wilson Fisk.
He just made him feel bad.

Speaker 2 (01:55:00):
Cecile's arc is wild, wild.
Cecile's arc is wild, wild.
Cecile's arc is absolutely wild.
Oh man, what that character,man cecile look, the flash made
some baffling decisions.

Speaker 1 (01:55:15):
I mean, you know talking big picture.
Um, before we get out of here,I mean this universe had to go
through covet as well too.
Like it had to go through that.
That was a really I was areally trying time for that
whole universe as well too.
It kind of turned the wholecorner for that universe.
The only show that didn'tsuffer from that, I think, was
Superman and Lois, and maybeStargirl, because the Flash is
by far the most glaring sufferedfrom COVID.

Speaker 2 (01:55:39):
That show got hurt, bad by COVID, really bad.
I mean it's tough.
It was a show that you knowVirtua Fighter.

Speaker 1 (01:55:46):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:55:49):
Man, yeah, the Flash.
It had moments at the end thereand then just some.
That series finale is puzzlingto this day.

Speaker 1 (01:55:58):
Insane.

Speaker 2 (01:55:59):
Especially when you compare it.

Speaker 1 (01:56:00):
I mean we'll talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:56:01):
Superman and Lois obviously insane, especially
when you compare it.

Speaker 1 (01:56:02):
I mean, we'll talk about superman and lois,
obviously, but when you comparethe superman and lois finale,
it's like the flash finale, it's, it's my, it's my thought about
the coyness, like when thingsare coy and when things like the
super, like the flash finale,wanted to be so coy for some
reason, like you know.
You know, in flash rebirth,like the splash page, when barry
comes, like it's everybody,like max mercury, jay, garrick,
his kids, it's Barry, it'severybody, it's Jesse Quick,

(01:56:27):
everybody's on the splash page.
I thought they were going to dothat.
I thought they were going toend the season on the splash
page.
Grant's monologue at the end isstill great.
It's still great, but man, ohman, you transition to that
Superman and Lois finale.
They give doomsday shows up,lex luther shows up, but it's
not that.

Speaker 2 (01:56:47):
It's the legacy of superman played throughout the
year where the flash family wasjust played for, like, look at
all these villains that we canbring back.
Well, also, like, when you dosomething like that, it d it
deprioritizes all of thosevillains and all the emotion
that those villains ever had, orany nuance they get.

Speaker 1 (01:57:03):
Yeah, they all slapstick.

Speaker 2 (01:57:04):
It's not they all get every single one of them, even
including thon.

Speaker 1 (01:57:09):
Get one noted it turns into like a stupid fan
film at the end of the day,where she's like that superman
and lois finale had so much likelike the ranger and grab like
I'm not like I'm not, I'm trustme, I'm not the person that's
like this is ridiculous, thatthis character is being this
character.

Speaker 2 (01:57:24):
But like, come on, yeah, like when you got Cecile
just taking out, godspeed, yeah,when you have Curtis not Curtis
, what's his name?
Oh, black Hole yeah him andAllegro like take out Thawne,
yeah, and then the matchups makeno sense.
Nora takes out Savitar.

Speaker 1 (01:57:45):
And that's his father .
That would have made sense.
That could have made sense.

Speaker 2 (01:57:48):
We litigated this when we talked about the Flash,
yeah, but like Nora versusSavitar could have had a little
something, a little juice to it,but they obviously it's one
episode.
It's a 140-minute episode wherethey show, so they shoehorned
all these like zoom.

Speaker 1 (01:58:01):
Like zoom becoming what he became, eddie coming
back, and like zoom becomingthis like obsessed with killing
cops what was the point?

Speaker 2 (01:58:11):
I don't understand even the zoom like costume like
took like a notable step back.
Like the mask didn't match thecolor of the costume.
Like.
They were better they I toldyou they should.
They were better off justmaking it eddie and reverse
flash against barry and doing itthat way, instead of like
trying to integrate, caitlinbecame like a goddess.

(01:58:33):
What was going on there?

Speaker 1 (01:58:35):
it's the fact that, like you talk about the flash
and like the highs and highs ofthe flash and Team Flash and the
Flash family, and then likewhat's it?
Choblain, Cecile, Allegra andwhatever I forget his name.

Speaker 2 (01:58:50):
They integrated.
They did not need that series.
They needed that series finaleto be about the Flash.

Speaker 1 (01:58:55):
Kojima's here.

Speaker 2 (01:58:56):
Everybody loves him.
That series finale needed to beabout Barry.
You could have even said, youcould have even made it about
Barry and Iris.
You could have conceivably donethat In the way that the Arrow
series finale was about Oliver,in the way that the Supergirl
finale was about Kara, the waythat the Superman and Lois
finale was about Clark and Lois,the Black Lightning finale

(01:59:20):
obviously that show kind ofended abruptly in a weird way.
The Legends finale was abouttheir journey.
The Legends journey, the Flashfinale was just like look, we're
going to make you, look, exit,look, look All these characters.
Look, those characters nooffense to them were not the
heartbeat of the show.

Speaker 1 (01:59:38):
Sisko wasn't even there, first and foremost, which
is such a disservice you shouldhave amended, whatever Carlos
Valdez and Warner Brothers likeCisco wasn't there, caitlyn was
not Caitlyn anymore, so like Joewas barely there.

Speaker 2 (01:59:51):
Joe was not there.
Obviously, jesse L Martin hadhealth stuff going on, but like
there's, then in that case, likeif you're gonna do that, just
make that finale about Barry andIris.

Speaker 1 (02:00:01):
Like if you're gonna do that, just make that finale
about barry and iris simplified,sometimes less is more and the
superman and lois finale youwant to talk about.
Play the hits, play the down tothe characters down, like they
weren't pulling every singlesuperman, villain, no doomsday,
lex luther, that's it so I meanblame it serums.

Speaker 2 (02:00:16):
Unfortunately, the flash probably has the weakest
series finale on all of them.

Speaker 1 (02:00:19):
Oh yeah, which is really sad.

Speaker 2 (02:00:21):
Yep um for a show that probably has maybe the best
individual season of any ofthese shows season one or season
two, take your pick.
Um, to have it end like thatwas just yeah.
Really a shame, um, because,honestly, like there were
concerns about superman and loisgoing into this final season,
like the budget got cut a lot ofthese characters got cut or

(02:00:43):
reduced, Like everyone got likereduced roles and people were
like, are they going to justkind of throw this together and
just end it?
But they didn't, thank goodness.
Um, so I'm kind of glad thatSuperman and Lois you know as
much, as as much as I love theflash I'm glad that Superman and
Lois got to be the end of this,instead of the Flash being the
end of this.
As detached as Superman andLois is to everything else,

(02:01:04):
People are going to rememberthis as the end of the CW-verse
and I think that's really great.
I think it deserves that Agreedand I can't wait.
One of these days I'm justgoing to go back and watch them
all again.

Speaker 1 (02:01:18):
I might do the episode order thing and watch as
they were coming out thisuniverse.
I might do the episode orderthing and like watch as they
were coming out.
This universe means a lot to usand shout out the Arrowverse
man.
Shout out to the Arrowverse wow, what a universe man would you
say you're a guardian angel?

Speaker 2 (02:01:34):
I love that they brought that back.
As cheesy as it was.
I love that they brought thatspeech back at the end of
Oliver's cameo in Flash Season 8.
Are you a guardian angel?
Are you you know?
Are you the hope for your city?
You know?
Saving people in a flash andthen he disappears.

Speaker 1 (02:01:52):
Not bad.

Speaker 2 (02:01:53):
I loved it.
Not bad Good stuff.
Alright, guys, where can theyfind us, man?
They can find us on theTwitters the X's Project INF
underscore pod.
You can follow us on Facebook.
You can follow us on InstagramAt the Project Infinite pod.
You can follow us on TikTok atthe Project Infinite podcast.
Next week, we're going to talkabout Superman and Lois proper

(02:02:16):
and talk about all the goodthings, because that show is
littered with nothing but goodthings for the most part.
Um, it has its ups and downs,but not it's not anywhere near
as glaring as any of these othershows.
Um, we'll talk about, like, theside characters and stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:02:32):
I think all of them are really, really compelling
yeah, that family drama fromseason one down to the the
cancer arc for lois, from seasonthree, the vulnerability of
clark down to, you know, hittingyour big villains.
And this show hits all the bigSuperman villains.
It does.
It hits all the big Supermanvillains outside of Brainiac.
Brainiac was the only one whichwas on the cards they were
planning on doing Brainiac andDarkseid in future seasons Right

(02:02:53):
, which would have been awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:02:55):
But yeah, I mean John Henry Irons and his daughter
Great, I love the Lana, the Langfamily, the Lang slash Cushing
family.
Even Kyle, like Kyle Cushing,who feels like this one-note
kind of like commentary on acertain sect of America, becomes
this really kind of compellingcharacter in his own right.

(02:03:20):
You know, when he divorces Lanaand he has a thing with christy
and that stuff is all reallygreat man, um, jordan and
jonathan, obviously tremendous,tremendous stuff.
Um, what was his dad?
Yeah, um, all that good, allthat stuff.
And then obviously the.
The introduction of lex lutherin the final season is just

(02:03:42):
Couldn't have been better.
I know people were bullish onthe Michael Kudlitz, him having
the tough guy, me included.

Speaker 1 (02:03:50):
And then I started swatching and I said oh my god.

Speaker 2 (02:03:53):
Yeah, you realize, much like Superman, this Lex
Luthor is at a very differentpoint of his life from the Lex
Luthor that we typically know.
He's a Lex Luther like to yourpoint.
That is kind of over it andhe's kind of just one note ready
to just take, but alsoincredibly smart.
Still, you see, that brillianceit's a ruthless brilliance, in
a way that, like criers lexwould was kind of like

(02:04:15):
manipulative brilliance.
Couplice's brilliance is morebrute force, yeah, but it's also
cunning.
When he confronts we'll talkabout the the final season.
But like when he confrontsjordan in one of the season, one
of the scenes in the finalseason, when he's like, when he
basically says like you're notbuilt for this kid, like I'm lex
luther and you're superman'sson, like we're not on the same

(02:04:38):
level, I don't care if you havepowers.
Like I've been fighting yourdad for a decade, like you're
not on my level, right, um, soyeah, I can't, I can't wait to
talk about the show it's really,really impressive.
Um, so that's it.
Next week we'll talk aboutsuperman and lois.
So from me and probably theeasiest one of these I could
have ever done, the barry allenof the podcast, yes, um waiting

(02:05:03):
for this yeah, that was theeasiest one of these I could
have done.
It was a layup who'd they seerob?

Speaker 1 (02:05:10):
which superhero did they see?
What was he, bro?
Come on man, what was he?
He?

Speaker 2 (02:05:19):
he was real strong.
That that's not the line.

Speaker 1 (02:05:24):
Last night I saw Superhero.
He was what.
Why did they put that?

Speaker 2 (02:05:27):
in a theme song.
Because this is for the streetsBlack Lightning's back Every
other show had an instrumentaltheme song and then Black
Lightning comes in and it'sexposition.

Speaker 1 (02:05:37):
I said it's the best exposition dump because it gets
right to the point.
He indeed was black and he wasback.

Speaker 2 (02:05:44):
The island that they found me on was leon you, it's
mandarin for purgatory cooked.

Speaker 1 (02:05:50):
I've been away for five years that lost found
footage of him shot on an iPhone.
Gareth Edwards probably shotthose bits from the pilot.

Speaker 2 (02:06:09):
Oh man, I didn't know .
You studied Russian in college,Oliver.

Speaker 1 (02:06:11):
I didn't know.
You wanted to sleep with mymother, walter, whoa, whoa, whoa
.

Speaker 2 (02:06:18):
This guy's a menace.

Speaker 1 (02:06:27):
Yo, what were they cooking in the early cw there?
There was mad racial jokes inthe early part of the season.
What did tommy say?
He said uh, giants, steelers,giants against black president,
that's new.
They made the dingle joke.
When he goes to russia, he'slike I haven't seen anybody like
you.
And he's like what do you mean?
The guy rubs his face.
He's like oh no, yo, oh no ohgod, ah man remember the

(02:07:02):
huntress.

Speaker 2 (02:07:03):
Yeah, talk about tortured souls.

Speaker 1 (02:07:06):
Yeah, oliver and helena bernielli but they might
have been the most meant foreach other in the whole universe
man.

Speaker 2 (02:07:11):
That romance, that romantic tension was tensioning
you remember cupid?

Speaker 1 (02:07:14):
she was a psycho.
Her name's cupid remember whenthey did the suicide squad?
Yeah, it was still better thanthe 2016 oh, do you remember the
arrow?
Versus.
Am Amanda Waller.
Yeah, yeah, she was an issue,god yo.
She blew up that city dog.
That was crazy, blew up thewhole city.

Speaker 2 (02:07:29):
That was nuts.

Speaker 1 (02:07:30):
That was the most Amanda Waller thing I've ever
seen yo, I can't believe theykilled that kid from Stargirl or
that early in the season onthat bus.
Man, I was like bro come on man.
Supposed to be the fun showremember when they went to
woodstock and legends, yolegends, oh no, oh yeah, we
can't yeah we can't, we can'tleave without talking about
that's the last thing we'regoing to talk about, actually

(02:07:51):
barack obama.

Speaker 2 (02:07:53):
I'm going to make america grod again this show,
this universe.

Speaker 1 (02:07:59):
unfortunately, stuff not unfortunately, but it dude
it did play into all the realworld stuff that was going on.
Barack Obama, barack Obama.

Speaker 2 (02:08:09):
Yo, they did Gorilla.

Speaker 1 (02:08:10):
Remember when they gave Gorilla Grodd super speed?
Yeah, they did, they did thething.

Speaker 2 (02:08:15):
Dude, we didn't even scratch the surface.
That's the crazy thing, Dude Ineed a part two.
We're gonna need a part.
We're just gonna have have totalk.
Part two is just gonna be allthe crazy yeah, crazy fun
moments.
We did the series.
We really love these things,amazing moments.
But next, next time we talkabout the universe, it's gonna
be the this thing's absurd.
The fun stuff, the good stuff,the map.

(02:08:37):
Remember when the legendsturned into muppets?

Speaker 1 (02:08:39):
yeah bibo bibo, one of the most important beings in
this whole universe funny, I seearguably more important than
the actual monitor, if we reallywant to talk about it there's a
whole other monitor discussionyeah, man what does he do I?

Speaker 2 (02:08:54):
don't know man let's get out of here yeah we'll watch
.
Watch the rest of the gameawards yeah, um, I said all the
socials already, so yeah, nextweek.
Superman and Lois, you have notfailed this city no, no, you
have failed this multiverse nothis best.
No, nope, nope, nope, nope we'renot gonna, we're not gonna talk

(02:09:15):
about that one, we're not,we're not gonna bring that up.
See, that's, that's.
That was my Morbius moment withArrow Season four, when they
opened on arrow season four andit was like it felt like I was
watching an episode of likeseventh heaven.
I'm like, oh no.
And then he said full citysmoky, I failed this omelet.
And I'm like, oh no, I am thegreen arrow.

(02:09:38):
Oh man, why don't you have apress conference in a warehouse
and go back to season one,oliver, when, when Malcolm
Merlin was like what do youthink about Green Arrow, lame,
lame?
Um, alright, guys, we will seeyou next week for some Superman
and Lois discussion.
Until then, goodbye.

Speaker 1 (02:09:55):
Last night I saw a superhero.
He was black.
He said this is where thestreets black lightning's back
man, I had to let you cook withthat one.

Speaker 2 (02:10:02):
Yeah.

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141 - Farewell to the Arrowverse: Reflecting on a Decade of Superheroes

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}141 - Farewell to the Arrowverse: Reflecting on a Decade of Superheroes