Touchable Bodies: A Conversation with the Author of Touch Me, I'm Sick, Margeaux Feldman | Ep. 90 - The Prolific Hub Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Aliya Cheyanne (00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome back to the show.
I'm so excited to have you hereand I'm so excited to be joined
by a returning guest of theshow, margo Feldman.
Hi, margo.
Hey, so happy to be back.
I'm so happy to have you back.
This is so cool.
The last time we spoke, wetalked all about academia.
You're pursuing your MFA.

(00:20):
Now you're back.
You have it.
You have your PhD.
You're an author Touch me I'msick A memoir of essays and I'm
so excited to jump into all ofthe things.
So thank you for coming back.
This is going to be super fun.
So before I turn it over to youto introduce yourself a little
bit more for folks who haveheard Margo's episode on the

(00:43):
podcast in the past, we talkedabout a lot of things.
We talked about everythingacademia, everything, healing
and trauma and chronic illnessand identity.
We talked about so many things.
We touched on loneliness, likethat's a forever topic in the
stratosphere right now.
All these different things wetalked about so much and I'm
really just excited to revisitour conversation.

(01:05):
Talk all about Margo's new book, touch Me I'm Sick, and really
get into more about touch andhow we relate to one another
when folks have varyingabilities or are living with
disabilities or living withchronic illness, and I'm really
excited about this.
So before I keep going, I'mgoing to pause and kick it over

(01:30):
to Margo.
Margo, would you like to shareanything about who you are in
the world today?

Margeaux Feldman (01:35):
Yeah, I mean, like many things are the same
and many things have changed, asis being a human in the world,
I guess.
So, as you mentioned, I recentlycompleted an MFA in creative
writing, so I've just been likeleaning into like the

(01:55):
spaciousness of being out ofschool and also just really
thinking a lot, I guess, aboutwhere I want my attention and
focus to be these days.
Having spent so many years onInstagram creating the account
that I've run there, puttingtrauma education out into the

(02:18):
world, and for many years in theform of memes, I've actually
been really taking a step backfrom that, because I've just
really recognized the ways inwhich social media and we'll,
I'm sure, at some point, talkabout all of like the things
that have been so beautifulabout being human on the

(02:38):
internet.
I'm also really kind of likereckoning with I mean, I guess
this is a very long winded wayof saying I'm like recognizing
in this season of my life, howchallenging it is for me to just
be present with, like what ishere and now.
And a lot of that comes fromhow I've been shaped by social

(03:00):
media, and so I'm still a writer, I'm still an artist, social
media, and so I'm still a writer.
I'm still an artist Technically, I still exist on the internet
and on Instagram, but I'vereally been redirecting a lot of
my focus to just like beingable to do more writing in the
world, being able to do morereading and just being off of my

(03:22):
phone more.
So that's like, yeah, a littlebit about how I'm joining you
today.

Yeah, I love that, and we'll talk a lot more
about some of that later,because something we talked
about the first time around wascommunity and finding it through
online spaces, and I've sharedwith you previously on the show,
too, that I know of you andyour work because of the
Softcore Trauma page, and it'veshared with you previously on
the show, too, that I know ofyou and your work because of the
soft core trauma page, and itwas a page that really allowed
me to feel really seen and totalk through things in a softer

(03:54):
and a simpler and a sweeter waythan I've been used to doing,
and I know that you've also beentaking some space for yourself
and taking a step back from thatpage too, so I didn't want to
bring it up right away.
But I completely get it assomeone who I'm definitely in
the right now personally in theconsume more than I create camp

(04:17):
on that platform.
But even consumption is so notgood for us to the point where
recently I've actually startedimplementing a social media
limit for myself on my phone,like using some of the features
that are on my phone to help melimit myself.
I still have my days where I'mlike one more minute, 15 more

(04:38):
minutes, but my screen time hasbeen atrocious and I'm trying to
do better, especially when itcomes to Instagram and TikTok,
so I totally get taking the stepback.
So, yeah, let's dive into allthe things.
I don't want to.
I want to talk about that, butI want to focus all about your
book and Touch Me.
I'm Sick and I really want tostart with just the basic

(05:00):
understanding and basic level oftouch, because touch is so
important.
It means something different toeveryone.
Some of us need it, some of usdon't really want it, some of us
are deprived of it.
At the end of the day, it's anessential part of human life and
functioning.
But I really kind of want tolean into the title of your book

(05:22):
because when you hear thephrase touch me, I'm sick.
It brings up so many differentthings.
Like your mind can go in somany places, so I would love to
talk more about like what touchmeans to you now in this season,
but particularly when you'rethinking about trauma or through

(05:43):
the lens of like illness.
What does that mean to you inthis season?

Yeah, well, I mean thank you for like that
introduction and like way intojust like thinking about touch,
Because, yeah, I mean as humansand even you know, like I mean
there have been studies donewith animals too, like we are
creatures that like, crave andneed physical touch.

Yeah.

And you know, if we were lucky in, like our
early developmental years, wereceived loving, caring touch
from our caregivers.
You know when we cried theywould come and pick us up and
hold us and soothe us, and youknow we would come to understand
touch as something that wasvery safe and very regulating

(06:32):
for our nervous system.
Unfortunately, a lot of folksgrew up not receiving touch when
they needed it or grew uphaving experiences of touch that
wasn't consensual, and there'sa lot of touch that's like
really been like normalized.
That's always so interesting tome and I think about this a lot

(06:53):
with like kids as well asanimals, where there's like
you'll see parents introducingtheir children to someone new
and they're like, oh, give thisperson a hug.
And this child is like who areyou Like?
I don't know who you are in theworld new.
And they're like, oh, give thisperson a hug.
And this child is like, who areyou Like?
I don't know who you are in theworld, and they're scared.
And then they continue to kindof like be prompted to touch

(07:14):
rather than like being askedlike do you want to give this
person a hug?
And having that like yes or no,be like celebrated.
So at a very, very young age,we're actually already like,
really normalizing touch.
That like isn't consensual, andI think too about it, even with
like animals the number ofhumans in my life who've adopted
sweet little traumatizedanimals who, like, don't want to

(07:38):
be touched, like they're veryafraid of touch, but we as
humans, have been taught thatlike, like animals are there for
us to just touch, and so Ithink there's a lot of ways in
which we have come to see touchas something that we take and
something that we are like, owed, and there's a million

(07:59):
different examples I could giveof this even strangers coming up
to me on the street andgrabbing my arm and moving it
around so they can look at allof my tattoos, and there's like,
no question of like, can Itouch you?
So yeah, so I think there's amillion different reasons why we
can grow up with very fraughtrelationships to touch and like.

(08:20):
On the one hand, we have thislike neurobiological desire and
need for physical touch and thena lot of fear in our bodies
that we might not evenunderstand.
Why am I afraid of giving thisperson a hug?
Why do I not like to be hugged?
What is making me uncomfortablehere?

(08:43):
What is making me uncomfortablehere, and so we have this like
kind of gap, both and you know,living within us.
That actually creates a lot oflike inner chaos and turmoil
when it comes to fosteringintimate bonds with others, um,
and so I mean, those are justsome of the ways in which I'm

(09:05):
thinking about touch and for thebook, it really kind of begins
with situating my own traumaaround touch within, like a
history of sexual assault, yeah,and yeah, touch being something
that that was done to me inways that I didn't even fully

(09:25):
understand, I didn't want.
And then my own journey towardsseeking out touch, but in ways
that actually just replicatedthe trauma.
Because, like, that's what weoften do when we have trauma you
think that we're going to tryto avoid the things that
traumatize us, but actually, ifwe haven't processed the trauma,

(09:47):
we seek out experiences thatremind us of that, because
that's what we know, and wethink that, like, okay, if we
seek it out, then we havecontrol this time.
So there's all of that already,which is like a lot, and then

(10:10):
you know, so this is, you know,like me going through life being
like wanting and craving touchand intimacy and consistently
seeking it out from people whowould harm me and not care for
me, and then doing the work toshift that through my own

(10:31):
healing so that I could enterinto relationships where I could
receive safe, healthy, lovingtouch.

Yeah.

And then I get sick and for me I have the
diagnosis of fibromyalgia, whichkind of like a catch-all
diagnosis in a way, wherebasically I just have like
widespread chronic pain in mybody.
Yeah, and when I first startedto experience that I didn't want

(10:59):
to be touched at all.
My partner at the time did notwant them to touch me.
I didn't want any kind ofintimacy like that because my
body was just like literallyjust in pain from sitting on the
couch, lying in bed.
So I didn't want that touchfrom them.

(11:20):
And then, as I started to kindof come to like accept that I
was going to live in this realmof chronic illness, I started to
think about the ways in which asick body is denied touch and
there's like so many ways we candefine like the sick body which
I can't get into me, think alot more about like the trauma

(11:46):
of touch, but the heal and thehealing of touch, and who gets
to receive touch and who isdenied that and why.
So yeah, I mean, I could go onand on.
So I'm going to like pausethere, there's a lot.

No, there's so much, you said so much and
several things have stood out tome so much.
So, even you bringing up howwe're introduced to touch and
consent from a young age, orlack of consent, like even with
kids, because that's prevalentin a lot of communities, like
telling the kid to go hungwhoever at Thanksgiving or

(12:20):
Christmas or when you first meetthem and it made me think about
there's a podcast host that Ilike.
Her name is Samaya Burton, andher show was formerly called Not
Just Another Sex Podcast.
Now it's called the BankruptMillionaire.
But she talks about her ownexperiences of growing up with
family and dealing with veryunhealthy dynamics within her

(12:42):
family when it comes to consentand sexual assault and touch and
all of that.
And she did an episode withsomeone else who I really admire
and respect, lavon Briggs, whoI've had on the show before too,
and they did an episodetogether.
They're both also survivors ofsexual assault and they also
talk about like stop tellingthese kids to just hug everybody

(13:03):
.
Like you're not teaching kidshow to have autonomy over their
own body.
You're teaching them thateverybody's just supposed to get
a hug, you're just supposed todo whatever the adult says, like
that's a natural like, no, like.
Allow kids to be like.
No, I don't want to hug thatperson, I don't know them, I'm
not comfortable, and I think youbringing that up is really
important.
Like that's something thatpeople need to be more mindful

(13:25):
of.
Like kids are whole beings withtheir own little intuition and
discernment too.
And like they have every rightto practice consent in their own
format, even at a young age,even as simple as a hug.
So even thinking about that isreally interesting.
You bringing up the example ofpets like it's so true, but I

(13:49):
almost kind of wanted to laughbecause I have a dog.
I adopted her at eight weeks.
She just turned five a coupleof weeks ago and like she likes
to snuggle on her own terms.
Yes, like when she's ready tosnuggle, I'm supposed to just be
like okay, but when I wantsnuggles, it's like whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa.
I didn't say I was ready yet.

(14:09):
And like sometimes, when I wantto give her snuggles, or like
little smooches, she'll be likeI'll be following her trying to
give her a smooch and her wholehead will be like girl, if you
don't no-transcript, because Iknow how painful and extreme it

(14:57):
can be and hell yeah, I wouldn'twant to be touched if I'm
having like a flare-up and I'min in pain.
So I totally get that.
But even you doing the workaround that to figure out what
does touch look like for me,even dealing with this like how
does this impact myrelationships, is really
powerful too.
So a lot of what you're sharingjust really resonated with me

(15:20):
in that context.
So thank you for sharing thatme in that context.
So thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, something I also want totalk about is when we're talking
about touch, we're also talkingabout how trauma lives in our
bodies.
You know you even mentioned, onthe episode we've done before,

(15:41):
the book the Body Keeps theScore.
Some other folks like you knowthere are other books around
that topic too, but that's apopular one too that people have
read.
So I would love to talk alittle bit more about the
relationship between trauma andchronic illness, because I know
something that we're learningabout now in this era especially
for my community, black womenin particular is that a lot of

(16:04):
untreated stresses and traumasare leading to autoimmune
diseases for us, and there's acorrelation there and that's
true for a lot of people.
So I would love to talk moreabout how that relationship
works and how it manifests, andespecially for people who are
leaning into more ways to try toremedy that and figure it out

(16:26):
and like understand theconnection.

I would love to hear some of your thoughts on
the relationship between thetwo ah, okay, yeah, I mean, this
is kind of what the whole bookis about, so I'm gonna give you
know a little little kind ofcliff's notes version.

Yeah, enough to make what folks want to read it
not.
Don't give the whole thing away, just a little taste so they
know they need to go get thebook.
Like I mean, you're asking meabout all my favorite topics of
just that.

Well, this could be like the whole episode,
but yeah, I think like for mewhat's so interesting is that
it's only like kind of recent,like historically, like 17th
century, that we started to seethe mind and body as separate.

(17:14):
So it's kind of called thislike mind-body dualism, as
though these two entities aresomehow totally disconnected
from one another, operatingseparately and like very
distinguishably from one anotherand like already in my brain,
I'm just kind of like well, buthow Like the mind is our brain
and our brain lives in our body.

And.

I think about like, one way of understanding
this.
If you think about, like whenyou're sick 99% of the time when
I'm sick, I am an emotionalbaby.
99% of the time when I'm sick,I am an emotional baby Mm-hmm, I
feel depressed and sad and like, and generally my disposition
is pretty happy, mm-hmm.
So the state of like we get aninjury and we're in pain, yeah,

(17:58):
like we are not going to be allsmiles in that situation.
So the pain that we'reexperiencing in our body impacts
our mind, it impacts our mood,it impacts our ability to like,
think, clearly, communicate, doall sorts of things that we use
our brilliant minds for right.
And so then, why wouldn't it bethe case that the opposite is

(18:18):
true, that what is happening inthe mind impacts our bodies?
And there's so much incrediblybrilliant, nerdy neuroscience
about this.
But you know, I'll kind ofoffer a couple of different
examples that I think can likeflesh this out.
And so, if we're thinking aboutlike trauma, specifically, one

(18:42):
of like the symptoms of traumais disordered sleep, because you
know you're having nightmares.
Um, because your brain is quiteliterally on the lookout for
danger, and so you know youmight be someone like me who's
gone your whole life thinking itwas totally normal to wake up

(19:05):
like multiple times during thenight, and I always thought it
was because I just like had asmall bladder and had to pee.
This was the logic that I cameup with in my brain, yeah, and
it wasn't until I started goingto my doctor to figure out why I
was like so chronically sick.
And she was like, well, how'syour sleep?
And I was like, oh, it's likepretty much the same.

(19:27):
I wake up like three to fourtimes during the night to go pee
, wow.
And she was just like Margo,that's not a thing.
And I was like what she's likemm-mm, like that's like your.
What we kind of figured out waslike, oh, this was actually

(19:53):
what I affectionately call mytrauma brain, or we can think
about as our sympathetic nervoussystem like waking me up to
basically check, like are wesafe?
Wow.
And so she sent me off for asleep study so that we could
like just really get a fullassessment.
And I woke up like 37 times anda lot of that is unconscious,
like you don't even you don'tcome to consciousness in that
like way, but it's like there'sso much that our body does to

(20:16):
regenerate while we're sleeping,yeah, and if we are constantly
waking up, we are interruptingso many different processes that
our body needs to rest, restore, regenerate, yeah, and so, for
me, what that essentially hasresulted in is this kind of

(20:37):
domino effect, where my musclesare tensing consistently, which
is like resulting in like thechronic pain that I have, wow.
There's a million otherexamples that we can think of
here that really show that likemind-body connection, you know,
with trauma.
Also, we're like often likevery hypervigilant and we hold

(21:00):
our bodies really tensely, tothe point where you know it's
like I'll go and get a massage,and massage therapist will be
like just relax, yeah.
Like well, I am relaxed, no, no, like really relax and like, if
you just like even like clenchyour fist as like an exercise

(21:21):
and hold your fist clenched fora couple minutes, your hands are
going to be sore after.
So there's all of these verymicroscopic ways that we are
holding our body in positions oftension constantly because to
be relaxed isn't safe and like.
So it's like, of course, I haveintense pain in my shoulders

(21:45):
and back because I've spent mywhole life on alert looking out
for danger, and so this ideathat trauma is something that
lives only in the mind and weneed to go to talk therapy and
that's how we're going to figureit out.
Famous people working in thisfield were starting to study
hysteria, this somaticunderstanding that our body is

(22:21):
all connected and the mind isconnected.
I mean, indigenous communitieshave understood that forever.
Communities with differenthealers, shamans and really
cultures that historically arenot white, have understood for a
long time this mind-bodyconnection and it's only really

(22:43):
kind of since around like the1980s that the world of mental
health has been like catchingback up and being like wait,
wait, actually like trauma livesin the body, lives in the mind
as well, but it's also in thebody and we can do so much
healing without actually evertalking about the story of the

(23:04):
traumatic event.
Yeah, we can heal by justlooking at what is happening in
our bodies, and so when I'mfeeling anxious, my therapist
will be like what does that feellike in your body?
Yeah, and for me it might looklike, oh, my shoulders are
caving inwards and forwards, I'mmaking myself small and as soon

(23:25):
as I recognize that, whathappens?
I expand?
Yeah, my shoulders openSuddenly, I'm taking deeper
breaths.
Suddenly, I'm feeling calmer.
What?
Who knew?
Who knew, I mean, and it's likeI laugh because, like, it
really should not be rocketscience, yeah, but this is so

(23:48):
many of us are unlearning theconditioning of the world that
we live in that has reallyworked to separate these two,
yeah, so yeah, there's a millionother examples of this, but
those are just a couple toreally just kind of like help us
think about, like how these twoare connected.

(24:09):
And so healing can't justaddress the mind, it has to
address the body, because traumalives there too.

Just address the mind, it has to address the
body, because trauma lives theretoo.
Yes, oh, my goodness, margo,waking up 37 times in the night
yeah, dude, oh yeah, I thoughtyou were going to say like a
much smaller number.
I'm like, do I need to sleep?
Because a bad night for me isgetting up like three or four
times to use the bathroom.

37 to wake up, that a lot, yeah oh, my god,
you know, and of course you dolike take things into
consideration, like you had todo the sleep study, like, yeah,
sleep institute, you take allthese things into consideration,
but what it really shows me islike, oh, like my body is like
afraid, yeah, and there's somany moments I don't realize.

(24:57):
And then I have people in mylife that I just like watch,
like sleep through the night andlike this, like joke with, like
my, my sweetheart, right now.
We're like I look at them whenthey sleep and they look like a
literal angel, like constant,and they sleep like through the
night, no problems, like they'revery, very regulated and and
they told me that they're likesometimes, margo, I wake up and

(25:20):
I see your face and you're justscowling and they're like, and
they're like, now that I knowwhat's going on for you in your
sleep, like that makes so muchsense.
There's like a lot that'shappening internally, like I'm
I'm not really resting.

There's like a lot that's happening internally,
like I'm not really resting,and so, yeah, I'm just like whoo
, show me what this like blessedfull night of sleep looks like
I want to know, and feels like,and to wake up from that.
I've heard before that I meanit's not a cure all for
everything, but a good night'srest really does so much for the
body because, like you said andas we know, our bodies are

(25:59):
recovering, they're repairing,they're healing through the
night and if they're not havingthe opportunity to do that
because the trauma, the fear,the hypervigilance, all of those
things are pushing throughduring our rest cycle, it's hard
for the body to repair and healitself.
So that's really that'sinteresting.
And even you talking about howtense our bodies are, when you

(26:22):
were talking, I literally did abody check on myself, like okay,
my jaw feels a little tight,like should I drop my?
And like even the massageexample, because I just had one
recently I was like I was tensein areas I was not expecting,
like it surprised me when theywere like working through
certain spots and I'm just like,well, it makes sense, because

(26:44):
if I'm at my desk for a longperiod of time and I'm like
crouched like this, that makessense.
And I had gone to a yoga eventrecently and we were just in
Shavasana, like just laying flat, and I thought I I thought I
was laying flat.
The facilitator came around andwas adjusting everyone.

(27:04):
I was like, oh, she's not goingto adjust me, like I'm good.
Next thing I know, I felt mylegs being lifted up and pulled
down.
I was like I know you're lying,like I'm, I'm not laying flat,
my body is still tense.
And she came and like pushed myshoulders down and like I was

(27:24):
just, like I wasn't laying down,like relaxed.
It's so crazy to me, like wejust don't notice how tense we
are sometimes and like what'seven driving it.
Notice how tense we aresometimes and like what's even
driving it.
So even just checking in in amoment, like while you were
talking, to say hey, let merelax my jaw a little, let me
put my shoulders down, let mebreathe a little bit more deeply

(27:45):
instead of so shallowly, likeit's so wild.

It's so wild, I know, I know it's truly.
I had to take like a whole eightweek long class on like
learning to breathe deeply,because when someone was like
take a deep breath and they'relike counting, I'm like like it
was literally painful.
It like felt like my lungs weregoing to explode, and that's
because all I've ever understoodis shallow breathing, again

(28:12):
because of trauma, breathingagain because of trauma, and
like we deep breathe when we'rerelaxed and at ease and
comfortable, but like if yourlife is very distressing, you
know, and there's all sorts ofdifferent things that like make
you know the world that we livein like an ongoing, like daily
trauma.
Like you know, we have to likelearn later in life how to do

(28:37):
some of these like very basicthings, like learning how to
take a deep breath, yeah, andand then like noticing the
difference there and how thatfeels, and so, yeah, I'd be
curious, you know, for everyonewho's like listening as we're
having this conversation, doinglike that little body check in
and just being like whoa, wait,actually like like sometimes

(28:59):
it's like I'll have thesemoments in therapy where my like
therapist will like catch melike she'll be like so, marco,
you've just been like grippingyour hands.
Yes, yeah, full time.
Are you aware of that?
And I'm like, huh, let them go.
And I'm like, oh, that feelsbetter, yeah, yeah, it's

(29:20):
sobering, to say the least it is1000%, 1000%.

Like even even thinking about that when you're
talking about the mind-bodyconnection, like how silly it is
for us to think that there'snot a connection, like so many
cultures, indigenous culturesand beyond, have known this,
just like you said.
But I think that's also just aresult of the society we live in
.
Like capitalism benefits fromthere being a sever between the

(29:50):
mind body connection.
We live in a like a whitedominant society.
That also benefits.
It goes hand in hand withcapitalism too.
The more we can travel back intime a little bit and just
remember the medicine thatalready exists, the better we
will all be.
I think that's really powerful.

(30:12):
Okay, I could, we could go on.
Now I'm like let's keep goingbecause there's so much more to
talk about.
You have already talked aboutsort of the era of hysteria,
when women were being labeled ashysterics, put in asylums,
being lumbotomized.
Is that the word Undergoinglumbotomy?

(30:33):
Like all these different things, and you've talked about that
in your work.
I know it's present in yourbook as well and I'm just really
interested in talking aboutthat a little bit more.
I'm not an expert in that area,so I'm so glad to be talking to
you and I don't know how muchfolks listening are as well, but
it's very interesting to be ina place in life where we have
platforms like TikTok and Idon't know why I keep getting

(30:55):
fed this kind of content.
But every now and then I'll getthe type of videos where it
shows people before and afterundergoing these labels or these
procedures and you'll see thelight leave people's eyes
because of medication ordifferent things and how
terrible life became in theaftermath of that.

(31:16):
We live in a society in thepresent day where people are
quick to be labeled crazy forwhatever they're experiencing,
whether it be mental healthissue or mental illness, whether
it be chronic pain, especiallypeople who identify as feminine
or women or non-binary like,whatever the case may be like.

(31:37):
We're so quick to be labeledall of these things and in a
society and in a world like that, it's kind of the other version
of becoming an untouchable,like we care about that phrase
of the untouchables, like peoplewho had leprosy in the Bible or
all these other kinds of things.
It's a new way of becoming theuntouchables and in this era

(32:00):
where you're saying, touch me,I'm sick, and combating that
narrative of being untouchable,I'm very curious about talking
about that a little bit more.
The people who are kind ofdeemed as too much, or crazy, or
hysteric.
What touch looks like for them?
Um, what intimacy looks likefor them?

so I would just love to hear some of your
thoughts around that yeah, Imean my first like response is
like oh, it can looked likereally embracing the idea of

(32:46):
like touch.
That's platonic, like holdinghands with my friends.
Yeah hands with my friends, yeah, and like cuddling with my
friends and doing the thingsthat we've like like been told,
like, oh, you just do that withlike a romantic partner or
person, like, yeah, you can havejust like such sweet touch, and

(33:09):
like I think like a lot ofpeople would be doing so much
better if they could openthemselves up to you know, touch
that can come from.
Yeah, like friends you know, asopposed to to partners.
And you know like there's somany ways to combat, like.

(33:31):
You know, these like storiesthat we've been told of like who
deserves touch, who doesn't.
You know, within a queercontext as well.
It's like you know, these likestories that we've been told of
like who deserves touch whodoesn't.
You know, within a queercontext as well.
It's like you know we have thehistory of, like the AIDS
epidemic and you know very muchlike bodies that were deemed
like untouchable.
Yeah, the sick body continuesto be thought of as untouchable.

(33:54):
I mean, Audre Lorde writesabout that in her cancer
journals feeling like people aretoo afraid to touch her body
because she's sick.
You know, and like reallyfeeling this, like, yeah, this
sadness and loneliness, eventhough there's like people in

(34:15):
her life, but like theloneliness we can experience
without having touch around us.
So I think like we can you know, I'm just like here to be like
how do we just like get creativeand break the molds and do
whatever it is we want, and howdo we have conversations with

(34:35):
people in our lives around howwe can like integrate more touch
just into our dynamics, likemassaging each other?
There's like this really cutepicture that like people are
starting to like turn into memeson the internet of like two of
the actors from like the showstranger things like two of like

(34:58):
the young boys and they're likewalking down the street with
like one of the actorsgirlfriend is there, but it's
the two boys that are holdinghands and she's like she's
having a great time, you know,and they're just having this
like moment of like intimacywith each other.
To me, that's so beautiful andthat shouldn't be like a
profound thing, right?

(35:18):
Yeah, but somehow it is and Ialso want to like honor that
like.
For some people, maybe touchisn't part of the equation.
I think we're having a lot moreconversations that are coming
from folks who identify as beinglike asexual, where it's like
they're not interested in likesexual touch in their bond or

(35:44):
what that looks like, looksdifferent to them and gets
negotiated differently, yeah,and may not exist at all in that
bond, but that doesn't meanthat there isn't intimacy, yeah,
so I don't know.
My encouragement is really forfolks to just like look within
themselves and be like what kindof touch do you desire and

(36:10):
which is like?
I mean, it sounds like an easyquestion, such a hard question
to answer and like how can youhave the conversations you need
to have to see if you can bringthat into your life?
And then I guess the otherpiece that I'll name is, like,
my own ongoing struggle rightnow is actually around
self-touch.

Yeah.

And doing a lot of work in my current
therapy around like just givingpleasurable touch to myself.
Not even touch that's likesexual, like, literally, just
like setting a timer for 10minutes and just running my
hands along my arms, along myhead you know the shaved head.
It's very like pleasurable tolike rub a shaved head and like,

(36:55):
but I struggle.
I feel immense discomfort whenit comes to having a
relationship of touch with myown body and that comes from
trauma, like absolutely and so,and that comes from like the
ways in which we've been taughtthat like touch is something
that comes from someone else,and so I think, another way of

(37:16):
if it feels too scary, toodangerous to receive touch from
others, how do you build thatrelationship of touch with
yourself?
And for me, it's like,literally, when my therapist was
like like do this for like anhour, and like she saw the look
on my face, she was like, okay,let's try doing this for 10
minutes together and I was like,okay, yeah, okay, great, great,

(37:38):
yeah, 10 minutes, we can do 10minutes.
You know, because I think that,like you know, when we live in
a world that has told people ofall kinds of like marginalized
experiences that like we areless worthy of touch.
It is like a politicallyradical like thing to touch

(38:01):
ourselves and to touch othersand to like redefine what touch
means for us.
And yeah, I don't know for me, Ijust get excited by like the
possibilities and then I think,also remembering like, yeah,
sometimes, like what you mightwant might be quote-unquote too
much for someone else, but thatdoesn't actually mean that what
you want is inherently bad aproblem.

(38:25):
It's like with any scenario.
It's like our needs, likesomeone else might not be able
to offer that to us, and I think, historically, the way that
we've been taught to respond tosomeone's needs that don't align
with ours is to make them feellike they're too much, because
then it's not about us, it'slike about them, and I think

(38:48):
about how much that's likedeeply connected to something
that's not even about like touchin, like the physical sense,
but like emotional, like youremotions are too much, like I
can't practice vulnerabilitywith you either at all, or even
a little bit, because it makesme too uncomfortable.

(39:09):
Yeah, but that's like actually,as someone who I historically
feel pretty comfortable talkingabout my feelings, oh, actually
I'm like, has that always beentrue?
Margo, I have a fraughtrelationship with talking about
my feelings um same same sameyeah, yeah, you know where.

(39:34):
Like it's all I really want todo is just talk about feelings,
and I have been taught that thatis like something that makes me
too much, and so I've had toset for myself boundaries around
.
Like you know, if I want tohave a deeper kind of intimacy
with someone, I need to knowthat my feelings are never too

(39:54):
much.
Yeah, and what that looks likeis just the other person being
accountable for their ownlimitations.
Yeah, and that's okay.
That doesn't actually mean thatwe're necessarily incompatible.
It means we got to collaborateand figure out how we can, like,
find the middle path together.

Yeah, yeah, I love that.
It kind of leans into whatyou've spoken about in terms of,
like, different modes of care,like queer modes of care and
like how people can find otherways to be intimate, to
experience some version of touch, even if it is not always
something that's physical, likeit's a form of intimacy that

(40:35):
isn't always physical.
When you were talking, it wasreminding me of two different
instances with friends recentlywhere when we were having like a
really vulnerable conversationand we were saying bye to each
other and just the way we likeleaned in and like gave each
other a hug and like she kind oflike rubbed my back a little
bit lightly, like that was aplatonic but intimate moment.
As someone who is not partnered, who is single, who's like a

(40:59):
little bit touch deprived, likeit felt really good to have my
friend touch me in that platonicway, like, especially after
that vulnerable conversation.
But I'm not always up for that.
Like I have like my longest bestfriend if she ever hears me she
might like laugh or get mad atthis, but like it's like
uninvited touch, sometimes Likewe'll just be doing, hanging out

(41:20):
, talking, whatever and she'llbe like like rubbed, like
playfully, and sometimes I'mlike I don't want that, like
don't don't do that.
Like we have to like be on thesame page in those moments.
So even just like identifyingthose things and figuring out
what works.
And I love what you shared, too, about needing to know that the

(41:43):
other person can witness youfully, with all of your emotions
, but under also understandingtheir capacity and their
limitations and collaborating onthat, because I think that's
really important too.
Like I'm definitely also in aseason where I have to like
mentally prepare myself forcertain conversations or I have
to say, like I really don't havecapacity for this today, or

(42:06):
maybe I got to call you back inan hour.
Maybe we have something likejust checking in with myself,
because, especially if you'relistening and you're like me,
you get overstimulated very easy.

Like it's not always um easy to just be fully
present in that way, and I findmyself having to make sure I'm
in a state where I'm moremindful and I can be fully
present so that I can show up ina way that doesn't make the
other person feel any kind ofway yeah, I mean, and I think
that that's like to me, thatlike another, like just

(42:39):
brilliant and beautiful part oflike practicing consent in
different ways, where, like mybesties and I like we have like
a little group chat between thethree of us and like we will ask
for consent, we'll be like hey,hey, does anyone have like
space to?
like talk to me right now aboutx, y or z thing, yeah, and and
then, like we're all to check inwith ourselves and be like,

(43:02):
okay, what is my like emotionalbandwidth, like what?
What?
Like in my day do I have time,you know?
And I think that another friendof mine has like said to me
like that they they really justwant to set to have me help them
, set the conditions for them toshow up.

(43:22):
Well, yeah, I think it's sobeautiful, right, because it's
like, it's really just like likewe all I mean I want to be
there, be present, be attuned,be able to hear and respond, and
like love on the person who'slike sharing something
vulnerable with me.

(43:42):
And if I try to show up in amoment where I'm distracted or
I'm like stressed because I havethis work deadline at the end
of the day, or I'm really tiredbecause I didn't sleep well the
night before and I'm cranky,like I'm actually showing up and
setting conditions that aregoing to lead to conflict.

(44:03):
And so I think there's thisbeautiful piece around like how
do we all check in withourselves and take
responsibility for how we wantto show up for each other, and
you know, and then like shareand like, own our own
limitations, because sometimes,like, the gap between the desire

(44:24):
and the capacity is big andit's just like, okay, well, like
, and it's not always like gonnabe that way, but in a
particular moment it might be.
Yeah, and that doesn't meanthat we still can't have that
intimacy, you know, or have thatconversation.

(44:44):
It just means that, like, we'reboth going to be more
thoughtful in planning that sothat it can go as well as
possible.

Yeah, 1000%.
I feel like we're also just inthis era too, where there is a
lot of therapy speak beingthrown around.
If I'm being very honest, likeI've someone who's been in talk
therapy on and off for like avery long time- for years and we
are in a place where there is alot of therapy speak being
thrown around.

(45:14):
People are setting and upholdingreal boundaries.
Some people just like the wordthere's a lot going on.
But there's also this narrativeof like okay, well, we're
becoming a little bit tooindividualistic and disconnected
because everything cannot justbe like we can't even have a

(45:36):
conversation anymore as friends,like everything got to be
therapy, like.
There's that narrative too, butI do think there is a balance.
I have 1000% had to tell afriend or a family member like I
don't know if this is one forme, you might need to talk to a
professional about this one.
And then there are momentswhere we can sit and talk about
deep, hard things.

(45:56):
As long as both of us are inthe space to do that for each
other, I think there is abalance.
I don't think it has to be oneonly or the other, but it's
interesting navigating this time, especially during an era where
a lot of people do feelisolated or lonely.
They don't feel connected tomany friends.
There are a lot of people inonline spaces who are talking

(46:18):
about how much they just don'tactually have friends in real
life.
So showing up online helps thema lot.
Like there's just a lothappening, and I think the more
we can kind of figure things outand build more intimacy
together like, the moresatisfied we'll all be.
As you've said, too, somethingthat comes to mind when you were
talking to about like platonicfriendship intimacy is like I I

(46:41):
don't remember who these girlswere.
It was a couple years ago, butthere was a video that went
viral of two friends in a pool,like in a in their backyard or
somebody's backyard, and one ofthem was standing and holding
her friend up and the otherfriend was just like peacefully
floating while her friend heldher up and I've I've never

(47:02):
forgotten the image of that,because I remember getting
really emotional when I firstsaw it, because I was just like
that's so beautiful, that's soso intimate, that's so just
sweet and pure, like what a nicething to be held by your friend
, yeah, like floating in thepool, like no demand, no
requirement, just quiet timetogether.
Yeah, and you're having thisvery beautiful experience.

(47:25):
Like little things like that, Ithink, are so powerful and I
hope more people find theirversion of that and feel that
you know, yes, 100%, ugh.

Now that visual is going to stay with me
too.

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, so sweet.
It was so sweet.
I wish I could like find itagain, but I've never forgotten
it.

Yeah.

And even just to circle back to something you
shared earlier about self-touch,even in a non-sexual way.
I hope you continue to explorethat.
I've attended two workshopsrecently where, at the end of
like a dance workshop, we wereinvited to like hug ourselves
and at first I felt a littlecorny and then I did it and I

(48:08):
was like, oh, this is actuallygreat, I needed this.
I was invited to do anotherworkshop where at the end of
that, we had to like kiss ourshoulders and I was like why am
I going to kiss myself?
Like kiss my own shoulder.
Like why would I do that?
At the end of it, it feltreally great.
I did another one where we hadto like massage our own stomachs
.
I've never thought to massagemy stomach before in my life,

(48:31):
but I did it and I was like Ihave the power and the agency to
do this for myself.
So I hope that you continue toexplore that in different ways
what that looks like for you.
Pleasure and comfortability.
Okay, so we have talked aboutso much I feel like one thing,
too that we I even justmentioned it just now with folks
who are finding intimacy orconnection and online spaces.

(48:54):
You obviously have so muchexperience with that.
I'm very curious to hear moreof your thoughts on what I don't
know just kind of navigatingchronic illness and connection
and what that looks like for you, how digital community has kind
of supported you in that andlike provided a mode of care for

(49:16):
you in a way, and how you'veseen that kind of play out for
maybe others too.

Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I'll preface this all bysaying that I mean it's weird
to be like I was lucky enough tolike already have people in my
life who were chronically illwhen I became chronically ill
which feels like a weird thingto be like I'm so lucky because
obviously I'm so sorry that theyhave to live with chronic pain
and like experience that yeah, Iknow that I did.

(49:48):
I was lucky enough to have acouple of humans in real life
who I was able to like lean on,but it was still like a very
isolating experience and for alot of people, like they don't
have anyone else around them whois living with chronic pain or
at least like recognizes thatthey're living with like chronic

(50:08):
pain or chronic illness in someway.
And and the reality is, when youare living with chronic illness
and chronic pain and this alsogoes for like mental illness and
some days like really barelyeven possible If you are lucky

(50:35):
to have like friends in yourcommunity who will like come
over and like make you dinnerand hang out with you like
that's, like you know you are soblessed and I have been so
blessed in that way, mm-hmm.
But for a lot of people, again,that also isn't the case, and so
you know, online community,whether that's through social

(50:55):
media or through, you know, likediscord or through like other
spaces, actually enablesconnection in ways that I think
the other people are so like, oh, like social media, like it's
not real and like it createsmore isolation.
And there are lots of ways inwhich yes, like it does.

(51:19):
There's these expectations ofhaving to perform, you know,
especially like perform likewellness, perform like fully
healedness, perform okayness,and that can like be really
exhausting and really isolatingwhen that's not actually what's
going on for you and that's likeyour experience.

(51:40):
And so for me, being like veryradically honest about you know,
my bad days allowed otherpeople to also be like, oh, I'm
having a bad day too, Like now Ifeel less alone in my bad day

(52:02):
and I think like I never takethose moments where someone has
like shared that with me lightly.
Like to me, I'm like I know thatthat it is a big deal to feel
seen and not alone in this world, even if it's literally because
of a meme that I made orbecause at one point in time,

(52:23):
when I was still, like you know,posting pictures of myself on,
like my social media, I posted aselfie I took in the bathtub
and then literally other peoplewere like I'm also in the bath
right now because of my chronicpain, and like it became this
whole conversation in thecomments and like we got to like
have this moment of intimacyand it's like intimacy with
total strangers, which I thinkis like one of the most

(52:46):
underrated and coolest forms ofintimacy and to me, is like so
queer and so radical becausewe've been taught that like we
can only have real deep intimacywith people that we know like
in real life or that we've knownfor a long time, and I've like
had just so many beautifulmoments of intimacy with

(53:08):
strangers.
And you know, I just wrapped upthis eight week long peer
support group that I run that'scalled Intimacy for Trauma
Babies, which is like short forbabies, which is like my term of
endearment.
It's a group of like 20 peoplewho are strangers to each other
and every week we meet and wetalk about readings and we do

(53:31):
reflection questions and peopleshare vulnerably and we're
talking about our struggles withintimacy and people are
practicing like their skillswith one another and that's with
strangers and in a way that canactually be easier than like
practicing it with people thatwe know.
That can actually be easierthan like practicing it with

(53:52):
people that we know, because wemight, number one, not even have
access to other people in ourlife that feel safe enough for
us to do that work with.
So that you know it's a wholeother like set of issues.
Have people, yeah, around us,but those are not the humans

(54:12):
that are going to show up andlike want to do this hard work
with us and as we start toorient ourselves towards
connections with people who aremore aligned in those ways,
we're so under practice in theskills that we want to bring to
intimacy.
So, yeah, I have a wholechapter in the book that's like
about social media and likeInstagram in particular, and

(54:34):
like building intimacy throughconnecting with strangers online
and like.
I do think that that gets leftout of the conversation a lot,
and I think that folks who aredisabled and chronically ill and
like struggling with trauma andother mental health stuff have

(54:56):
found people that they canconnect to through someone's
TikTok or through someone's memeor through whatever.
I think that's like a reallycool thing.

I think so too, and you shared so much.
That's so powerful.
And I heard before and I heardonce that the best way to
actually use social media is toshare a little bit of yourself,
to call others in who arealigned, who are connected all
of those things.
It just gets used for a lot ofother mess, good or bad.
But I think that's reallypowerful too.

(55:32):
Kind of related, but also not100% related when I think about
people who are thinking aboutintimacy, not just in friendship
, but even if it's romanticintimacy.
There's a whole communitygrowing.
I never actually watched LoveIsland.
I have just watched clips onTikTok.
Yes, uh-huh, but because ofthat I've been swept up in a

(55:55):
particular couple, theNicolandria couple.
But it's so interesting to seeonline the way that people are
exploring like what a healthyconnection looks like, to
actually have a supportivepartner that uplifts your dreams
and like re-evaluatingrelationships they've had, what

(56:18):
love looks like for them, whatintimacy looks like for them,
what protection and advocacylike all those things kind of
look like for them.
And there's a whole communityof strangers online who are
obsessed with this dynamic andthe situation and people are
finding their people that way.
They're talking about love andintimacy and relationship more.

(56:39):
They're talking about what itlooks like to be a good friend
or not a good friend.
They're reevaluating howthey've shown up.
They're reevaluating how theirpartners have shown up.
So I just think it's sointeresting to see things like
that kind of play out.
You mentioned, too, about justthe way that folks might be

(57:00):
isolating for various reasons,like maybe they feel too much or
too sick to be around others,or maybe others are treating
them that way, so they chooseisolation as a trauma response,
as a way of safety andprotection.
And social media for manypeople has allowed them to kind
of start creeping out of that,to blossom in their own time in

(57:24):
their own way and meet newpeople.
So I think that's reallypowerful too.
And I think about it too interms of other things, like it
doesn't always have to be maybeneurodivergence or mental health
or chronic illness.
Like I know, for some peopleit's just confronting parts of

(57:45):
themselves that don't feel greatabout.
I say some people parts ofthemselves that don't feel great
about.
I say some people.
I'm also talking about me, likesome people call it shadow work
and confronting the shadow,whatever it is, I have been
doing a lot of work aroundaccessing the parts of myself
that I feel like are cringe andnot great, and in doing that,
sometimes it's made me want toisolate and be like well, maybe

(58:07):
I just don't need to be aroundpeople, maybe I just need to be
by myself on my own and figuresome stuff out.
But through my friendships I'vebeen able to like, combat that
and be like no, I am worthy ofintimacy and touch and care too,
even if there are some parts ofme that I'm working through
that I don't deem as the best orgreat or that I think are kind

(58:30):
of ugly and untouchable.
You know, I think there's somuch that folds into that that's
really powerful.
And even on the note of likepeople who feel like they have
to perform healing or performwellness in this era online,
because most people want to showthe highlights and the
positives.
We don't like to show the hardstuff.

(58:52):
Yeah, all the time that stuff isrough and tough and then, when
people do, they get criticizedand ostracized for it.
We see so many my algorithm ontiktok.
All the time I see moms andwives talking about how friggin
hard it is, and then you havepeople in the comments being
like well, your mom suck it up.

(59:13):
Like you know, it's just like.
I don't mean to laugh at that,but it's just like when people
do want to express themselvesbecause they have nowhere else
to turn.
Like it's you're damned if youdo, you're damned if you don't.

So I just feel , like you know, being real,
being authentic, like showing upin the way that feels
comfortable to you, butchallenging yourself to like
connect in new ways or differentways, might just be a form of
care that could work in thisseason in this season Fun, and I

(59:54):
mean like I've also been verymuch in my like embracing my
cringe era Because, yeah,there's just like stuff,
especially as they do like a lotof work with like inner teen,
margo, who was real cringy, asour teenage selves are, and like
, but I think in those moments,you know, and it's so
interesting because like yeah,I've never really had people

(01:00:17):
respond negatively to me sharinglike my struggles, which is an
incredible gift, especially as,like my following grew and grew
and in fact it's just like theopposite of like people just
being like so grateful to likeknow that someone like me, who
they can look at and think likeMargo is like got it together,
like look at them, they've doneall this healing.

(01:00:38):
It's like actually like I'mstill a mess, I'm like still
figuring it out.
I just like wrote an essay formy sub stack that was called
like I'm so happy dot dot dotand I want to blow everything up
because it's like there's somuch that I'm like dealing with
consistently, you know, inwardlystruggling with.

(01:00:59):
But when I hear those kinds oflike negative responses, what I
get curious about then is likeoh oh, wow, seeing that person's
cringe made you feel a wayabout your own cringe and like
you can't let yourself havefeelings, so you need to tell
this other person to suck it up,because that's actually what

(01:01:21):
you're actually doing is.
You're actually talking toyourself pretty much, and so I
hope, whoever that person is outthere who is getting those
comments, I hope that they knowthat it's not actually a dumb
problem.
You know, and unfortunately,when we do make ourselves
vulnerable online, like we doopen ourselves up to all kinds
of projections from others, yeah, but if we can start to really

(01:01:45):
see, like, oh, like I've kind oflike been thinking a lot about
how Ecocentric it is and I saythat in a nonjudgmental way that
, like I make everything aboutme, this must be because I'm a
problem.
It must be because, like I didor said something must be, you
know, like I make myself theproblem because if I'm the
problem, I can fix me.

(01:02:05):
Yeah, I'm the problem, I canfix me.
Yeah, but 99% of the time, it'sactually, whatever is going on
for that other person Like theydidn't get enough sleep the
night before they feel a wayabout themselves Like actually
it has nothing to do with me.
So I need to just be here on myown journey of being like okay,

(01:02:28):
like, okay, like like I,recently speaking of too much,
watched the show too much, whichis Lena Dunham's new show um,
and it's really great and likemade me so cringy like the whole
time because, like the kind oflike main characters of the show
are like women who are likevery flawed, very cr cringy, and

(01:02:49):
I was like the whole time I waswatching, I was like feeling
resistance in me and I was like,oh, this must be touching upon
something in me that I see, thatI recognize that I don't want
to own, that I don't want tolove, and in not loving those
parts of me, I'm actuallycontributing to my own suffering

(01:03:10):
.
Yeah, and what is it?
So?
Yeah, that's why I'm just likeokay, if we all have parts of
ourselves that feel cringy, howcan we actually like embrace
those parts of us?
Because actually, those likecringy, messy parts of us
whatever language we want to useare actually just like the most
beautiful and like really justneed love.

(01:03:34):
And once we give them that love, they stop screaming so loudly.
What a wild thing what a wildthing.

Aliya Cheyanne (01:03:42):
Integrating the shadow.
Yes, yeah, it's so true.
It's so interesting how showsand film can like help us to see
that and recognize that too.
And also, like I saw somethingthe other day that says it was
like what is something along thelines of what is it a habit or
a thing that people do that somefolks would deem is like rude,

(01:04:05):
but it's actually healthy?
And someone responded to it andthey were like confrontation,
like people think burying theiremotions and feelings and
processing everything alone andinternally is emotionally mature
.
And actually it's not.
Like confrontation is healthy,like talking about your, your
thing, what's going on with you,is healthier.
And I kind of got the ick whenI saw that, because I was like I

(01:04:28):
was on the heels of a bigfamily blow up thing and I was
just like, oh, am I emotionallyimmature?
Because I buried all of myemotions, my feelings in this
situation instead of just havinga confrontation.
So it's just so interesting howwe see things sometimes and it
like it calls out whatever mightbe going on and like forces us

(01:04:52):
to reckon with it andacknowledge it and ultimately
accept it for the most part, formost things, and move forward
with it, you know.
So that's interesting.

Margeaux Feldman (01:05:06):
I mean, culture is a mirror for us,
right, like I love I watch allthe reality dating shows, love
Island, I can't do becausethere's just too many episodes.
Yeah, it's overwhelming.
I cannot commit to that manyepisodes Like, yeah, whether
it's like a meme, tweet or, yeah, a movie, or for me, so much

(01:05:26):
like mirroring has come throughliterature and like books that
I've read and I'm like aliterature student, I'm a writer
and so, like we are getting allthese opportunities all the
time to have things reflected tous and it's like this beautiful
gift actually that we have ashumans to be like.
What do I want to do whensomething is being reflected to
me?
Yeah, is being reflected to me?

(01:05:48):
Yeah, and I'm in this likeinteresting other part of my
journey that's like similar toyours, but on the other end,
where I'm actually learning that, like not every feeling and
thought that I have needs to beprocessed with someone else,
yeah, you know, and that there'sa lot of work I can do
internally either just like andthen never like, maybe I never

(01:06:08):
need to bring that to someoneelse, or maybe I bring it after
I've done the work to like,actually process it, um, and
learning to have thatdiscernment because, like the
part of me that wants to sayeverything, that's not my adult
self, that's like the youngerpart of me that was told to be
silent all the time, that wastold to like not stir the pot,

(01:06:32):
to not have confrontation, tolike just keep everything
bottled up.
And so, with trauma, it's likewe swing from like one end of
the pendulum to the other.
So it's like, well, I neverspoke up and said I was feeling.
So now it's like everythingthat I feel I need to like speak
, yeah, and how, like that's alot, I think a lot, I have a lot

(01:06:53):
of feelings.
So I'm actually building andlike, and I feel resistance, or
someone in my life who's reallyhelping me with this lesson.
And every time they say to me,like you know, margo, like you
could have just like processthat first before like bringing
that to me, and I feel angry andI feel resistance and I'm just

(01:07:13):
like but I'm feeling thatactually, because they're not
wrong like and there's like alesson in there for me.
So, yeah, whenever, wheneverI'm teaching, whenever I'm like
having just like a conversationwith someone, and they're like
really resistant to something,I'm like, hmm, like I know, for

(01:07:34):
me that's like time to explore.

Yeah, 1000%.
Oh man, thank you for sharingthat, margo, and it's so true.
I know on either end of thescale, I know that folks might
feel seen in, that Folks mightbe able to resonate with what
you're sharing, and also theother end, what I shared.
So it's all about finding thebalance and learning new modes
to relate and recognizing what'scoming up and when, because,

(01:08:00):
like you said, it could be innerteenager, it could be child
stuff.
You know that's always what itgoes back to, that kind of
conditioning conditioning.
So it's just like how do weallow our adult selves to take
control while also allowing ouryoung, the younger versions of
us, to still feel seen and heardin the way that they might not
have been during their time?

oh, you just summarized the whole journey of
healing baby.
That's it, that's it, that's it.
No big deal, no big deal.

But on that topic of healing, I want to
circle back to Touch Me.
I'm Sick because I know writingand as a writer, writing brings
up so much when you're tellingyour story, when you're writing
through experiences andprocessing those emotions all
over again with an adult lensnow like it can bring up so much

(01:08:51):
.
So I'm very curious about howwriting Touch Me I'm Sick kind
of allowed you to retell orbetter understand your story and
also how it might have impactedyou or changed how you even
view your own story andnarrative.

Yeah, well, so this question is like sort of
the whole project of like mythesis for my MFA, which
basically is about realizing theways in which I used academic
writing and research to actuallybetter understand myself.
But I didn't consciously knowthat that's what I was doing at

(01:09:26):
the time.
And so, for example, like yeah,with my dissertation, like
Touch Me, I'm Sick began as myPhD dissertation, so that's like
that.
So we're going back in time tolike 2014 here, and it started
off as just like I'm justinterested in how the desires of
like girls and women and femmesor whoever have been like

(01:09:49):
pathologized.
And I had this moment where Iwe have our qualifying exams in
our third year, where, basically, you have to like read all of
these books in like your fieldof study and then like write
some essays and do like an oralexam.
And as I was writing the essays, what I realized was every

(01:10:10):
single book that I had plannedto write about at that point in
time centered around a girl witha dead or missing mother, and
my mom died when I was 11.
Yeah, and that I was just likewhat?
And then I started to realize,like I've always thought, that I
was just like drawn to traumastudies as a field because, like

(01:10:35):
, I started as a psychologymajor in university and I'm just
interested in the human mind,no, no, it's that I was like
actually trying to understandmyself, yes, but I wasn't ready
for therapy at that point, Iwasn't ready to do that work for
myself personally.
So I did it intellectually andI'm a very cerebral person, so

(01:10:56):
that's not surprising to anyonewho actually knows me.
But somehow it was a shock tome to realize like, oh, I'm
drawn towards writing about andthinking about certain texts
because they reflect somethingback to me about myself.
So you know, as I was workingon the dissertation and writing

(01:11:17):
it, you know I mean this waslike an academic, like I didn't
exist in this, like narrative,because that's not seen as like
academic writing.
It used to be very objective,not subjective.
And then I got sick and then Irealized that this connection
between trauma and chronicillness, the dissertation

(01:11:39):
shifted and I had to startwriting about myself because
there was just no way for me tonot do that.
But even still, by the time Isubmitted it there was very
little of me actually in thebook.
It was very academic.
And then I spent, I took sometime away from it because I
needed some space.
And then when I came back to it, I was like, all right, I need

(01:12:00):
to like strip this of a lot ofthe academic stuff and I want
more of me to be in there,because everything that I'm
writing about is me.
It's like, of course it is youknow.
So, yeah, the book has this likereally kind of funny history
and like one of my best friendsis reading it right now before

(01:12:20):
it comes out and and they knowmy writing from like my MFA and
from my contemporary like momentthat I'm in, where it's like,
yeah, like this book, I mean, Idefended my dissertation in 2021
.
And now the book is coming outin 2025.
So I could do like a sense oflike time has passed.
Of course, my writing haschanged.
I'm not in an academic likeprogram like that anymore, but I

(01:12:42):
think, yeah, like you know tocome back to your question it's
like I don't know if I couldhave written about myself
without the academic and kind oflike more like intellectual
research based elements of thatare.
A lot of them are still in thebook, because I am also an
educator and I nerd out aboutlearning.

(01:13:04):
So you know, I like I wantpeople to learn things about
like trauma and hysteria andintimacy and care and all of
these things, and then likeadding myself into it.
I mean that part actually feltreally easy and I think writing
about our own lived experiencefor me personally has been so

(01:13:24):
healing.
Part of the process of healingfrom trauma is actually sharing
your story with an empatheticlistener, and for me I've just
chosen to do that with likehundreds of thousands of people
on the internet, and now it'slike going to be even more
potentially potential people inthe world which feels you know.

(01:13:45):
That's not to say that thereisn't like terror and fear there
about being like hi everyone,you are going to read all about
my messiness.

You're about to be really seen.

Yes, and there's even a chapter in the
book that, like, I think I'mgoing to like approach my
publisher about like rewritingit for the paperback edition,
because there's stuff that'sshifted for me and I'm like I
don't know if I love thischapter anymore.
Like it represents me in aparticular moment in my own
thinking and understanding ofmyself, and so the idea that

(01:14:19):
like people are gonna like readthis chapter, that to me feels a
little bit messier than I wouldlike it to be.
It's also scary, but I'm justtrying to lean into the
messiness and that we get to behumans who are growing and
evolving and changing.
And overall, I know thatreading books that reflected my

(01:14:43):
experience to me wastransformational and if my
writing can have an impact oneven just like one person, like
that feels so worth it.
So I think also like knowingthat when we write about our
healing, it can be healing forothers, like that's what really

(01:15:06):
allows me to like push throughall of like the fear.
Yeah, I mean not gonna read bookreviews.
I'm not gonna read the comments, you know gonna do stuff to
protect myself, you know as muchas I can because, of course,
like I am sensitive creaturethat still wants everyone to
like me and but overall I justfeel like blessed that I got to

(01:15:28):
write a book and that book isgoing to exist in the world

(01:15:49):
allow others to do the same,just by our very existence and
our very journey.

So it's so interesting to hear I know the
last time we spoke, you hadshared about how and why you
started your blog as an ode toyour mom and fashion and how it
evolved into softcore drama,like the page and everything
else.
So it's so interesting to hearthe backstory of your book and
how you consciously orunconsciously gravitated toward

(01:16:12):
authors with a similarexperience, and how you've had
to put and allowing yourself tobe seen, because in doing this

(01:16:32):
honest work, you're allowingsomeone else to heal, to also
feel seen, to explore and tomeet some part of themselves
more deeply.
So I think that's reallybeautiful.
So kudos to you thank you.

Thank you for those reflections.

I know, margo, we have talked about so so much
and I know we're.
At time I was so excited forour conversation.
I recently wrote some musingsaround touch.
As someone, like I said, who issingle and like, who does feel
a little touch deprived and islooking for more platonic
intimacy with my friends and Iwas so excited for our

(01:17:10):
conversation and to talk moreabout Touch Me.
I'm Sick.
This conversation was reallyhealing for me and really
beautiful.
Thank you for sharing so muchand showing up so marvelously
and brilliantly today.
I've loved our conversation.
Can you let folks know where toget Touch Me?
I'm Sick when it comes out.

(01:17:31):
Where to support your work,where to learn more, all of the
things.

Yes, well, first, just like thank you for
having me back for anotherconversation.
I just feel like so energizedand my brain is like so like
invigorated by like thequestions that you brought to
the table, and I'm just sograteful to like get to talk
about these things.
It's all my special interests,cool.
Let's just stop, but you cantouch me, I'm sick.

(01:17:59):
Anywhere the books are sold.
Yes, my favorite thing is topre-order from your local
bookstore Because it tells thebookstore, like, in case they
haven't heard of the book, maybethey want to have it in their
bookstore.
Plus, they just love an indiebookstore.
But if that is not accessible,either just because of your
location or because of cost, youcan also find it on like amazon

(01:18:24):
, barnes and noble, like all oflike the, the big guys.
It comes out on sept, september9th, and pre-orders really like
do make a difference.
So even if you're like that'snot out yet, maybe I'll just
wait, you know, if it doesn'tmatter, maybe just put that
pre-order in.

Yeah.

And yeah, if you follow me, you will hear
some stuff soon about my booktour and where I'm going to be
and where we can connect.
And then, yeah, otherwise, youcan find me mostly these days on
my sub stack, which is calledCareScapes, and I'm sure the
link for that will be put intothe show notes so you can find

(01:19:03):
it.
But I'm using that space toshare my memes once a week and
then also like longer formessays based on whatever it is
I'm working through in myhealing journey at the moment.
And yeah, I mean technically,my Instagram still exists.
So if you have not, if you'renot familiar with soft core
trauma, you can check that outand the archive exists there for

(01:19:26):
you, and sometimes theyperiodically pop on there to
like share some stuff.

Yeah, amazing, and I will make sure all of
those links are available in theshow notes so that folks can
access them easily and find them.
Thank you again, margo, thiswas really great.

Yeah, thank you, Leah.
I had such a great time.

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Touchable Bodies: A Conversation with the Author of Touch Me, I'm Sick, Margeaux Feldman | Ep. 90

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Touchable Bodies: A Conversation with the Author of Touch Me, I'm Sick, Margeaux Feldman | Ep. 90