August 25, 2024 • 26 mins
There’s plenty to learn from someone who’s travelled a very different path. In this episode we speak with Cain Cooke, Chairperson of the Real Estate Institute of South Australia.
Cain shares his diverse professional journey, from Real Estate to running Boost Juice to launching a tiny homes business. The discussion delves into the crucial intersection of technology and real estate, highlighting how AI can both facilitate and challenge the industry.
He emphasises the importance of humanising technology, using data effectively, and maintaining personal connections. Cain also provides actionable insights for smaller agencies on leveraging existing tools to enhance their operations.
The conversation ultimately underscores the need for adaptability and the continuous evolution of tech in real estate.
Learn more about Property Edge and join our mailing list at www.propertyedge.app
The Property Edge Podcast is brought to you by Land Services SA and our never ceasing quest for a deeper understanding of the property industry.
Time stamps:
00:00 Introduction to the Property Edge Podcast
01:09 Meet Cain Cook: A Journey Through Various Industries
02:29 Technology's Impact on Real Estate
05:00 The Role of Data in Real Estate
07:50 Mentorship and Training in Real Estate
10:09 AI in Real Estate: Opportunities and Risks
17:00 Leveraging Technology for Small Agencies
20:11 The Role of Agency Groups in Tech Adoption
25:06 Conclusion and Key Takeaways
Visit www.propertyedge.app/the-property-edge-podcast to see other episodes, see episode summaries and read transcripts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
sonic logo
Rob (00:03):
On today's episode or the property edge podcast.
Cain Cooke (00:06):
Real estate agents should be great at real estate,
not at technology.
I think AI is a risk for ourbusiness if we don't think about
it in the right way.
Don't expect that the systemthat you're using today is the
system that you're going to beusing in five or 10 years time
Mhm.
Rob Turnbull (00:23):
Hello and welcome to the Property Edge podcast.
My name's Rob Turnbull.
Join me on a journey ofdiscovery as we discover the
tools, the technology, theplatforms, the data, the AI that
are powering today's real estateand property leaders and giving
them the edge.
And this information will alsoguide our Property Edge workflow
(00:44):
in the future to understand whatelse we can put into Property
Edge to give you, the user, morecapabilities.
And today I'm joined withsomeone who will have a really
different perspective on this.
As the president of the RealEstate Institute of South
Australia, Cain Cook has done alot for the industry over the
last few years.
But he's not even involveddirectly in a real estate agency
anymore.
Good morning, Cain.
(01:04):
Thanks for joining.
Cain Cooke (01:05):
Good morning, Rob.
Thanks for having me on.
Rob Turnbull (01:08):
Now we just mentioned before we started
recording, that it's been about15 years since you were Century
21.
What, what have you been doingwith yourself since then?
Cain Cooke (01:16):
I've done a lot of different things, in the last 15
years.
I've went and run a little juicebar that everybody might be
familiar with called BoostJuice.
I've was part of the team thatbrought Specsavers to Australia.
I've run a South Australiancoffee chain Chibo.
Run an IT company and in thelast couple of years, I've
launched a couple of my ownventures one being a electric
(01:36):
motorcycle company, which Iguess is very much in the
technology space, and and a tinyhomes business as well.
So, I've kind of, traversed anumber of industries since
leaving the gold jacket behindgold being the a loose word, I
think, around the color of that.
But yeah.
It's, it certainly gives me areally interesting vantage point
(01:57):
from which to think about notonly the real estate industry,
but I guess business in general.
Rob Turnbull (02:03):
And so, as the RISA president, you're always
keeping connected with theindustry, obviously, and you'd
have some solid relationships,and you're operating almost
daily in that industry.
But you know, as I always harpon about, the technology is
great.
But if you haven't got theexecution there, that technology
doesn't matter whatsoever.
So sometimes rather thanupgrading technology, it's
important to upgrade people andhelp them understand that.
(02:25):
How have you seen that since youstepped away from the industry?
How have you seen technologychange things?
Cain Cooke (02:30):
In, in many, many ways and then in, in no ways at
all you know, I'm old enough toremember when I started in the
industry, you know, we used tostill take a, camera and digital
cameras would become a thing andwe'd take photos and then print
them out.
and stick them on a window card.
You know, that, that's when Istarted the industry.
or when the advertiser went fromblack and white sketches to
(02:51):
color which at the time was, youknow, a revelation.
I think industry, and from atechnology perspective we're
still doing a lot of the sameprocesses that we were doing
before, we've just removed a lotof the manual component.
So there's obviously a lot ofautomation and that allows
property managers salespeople todo volume.
(03:12):
I think that's the real shiftthat I've seen is the ability to
work faster, to sell more homes,to lease more homes, to manage
more homes.
That's the real shift.
The real observation that I'veseen is 20 years ago when I got
in, some of the sort of volumeof transactions that we're
seeing people do we never wouldhave dreamed of at that time.
(03:34):
And that's all because they'vegot a supportive ecosystem
around them.
And it allows great salespeoplein particular to really hone in
on what they're great at.
And fundamentally, this is apeople business.
So, when you have great peoplepeople listing and selling
property and they're not havingto worry about triplicate pads
(03:58):
to sign a contract, they canactually have, technology to
facilitate that process, thatthey've got prompters around the
relationships or things that areimportant to people that are on
their database they can reallylean into In my view, one of the
two most critical parts of anyreal estate transaction, whether
that be on PM or sales, andthat's human.
(04:19):
So building, building thoserelationships and then also
having the space andintelligence through systems,
data, and insight to negotiatethe best outcome for their
vendor or their landlord.
And at the end of the day,that's, That's the job for,
Rob Turnbull (04:36):
And you see that throughout, right?
So you see technology coming inand allowing humans to be better
at the best things that they cando that technology can't do for
them.
And then technology takes awayall the, all the painful stuff
and also serves up a lot ofinformation to them in the form
of data.
And data points that previouslycouldn't be collected or very,
very dispersely connected.
Serve them up right there andthen in a timely manner for
(04:57):
people to make decisions.
In that space then, in thatserving up data space, what are
you seeing that, the top 10percent agencies, what are they
arming their teams with thatperhaps other agencies should
perhaps consider or look into?
Cain Cooke (05:12):
from my perspective, I think it's actually about the
interpretation of data.
So, you know, if, if we considerthat great real estate agent
their knowledge of the marketand the market dynamics now 20
years ago, we used to get thatfrom hitting the phone and
talking to our peers or we'd seeit under contract sticker go up
(05:33):
on a property and we'd call, youknow, what did you get for it?
What's it look like?
You know, so that we could getthose market insights.
Those market insights Nowavailable through things like
Property Edge, which is, a greatproduct, but, whether that be
through CoreLogic or acompetitive product as well.
I think what the great agenciesdo and great agents is actually
(05:55):
use that data and interpret itin real terms.
So it's all well and good for usto know that, you know, 8 Smith
Street sold for 2.
2 million.
But what does that actuallymean?
How did that happen?
sell for 2.
2 million.
What was the marketing campaignthat went behind it?
What did the buyer profile looklike?
(06:16):
What sort of conditions were setaround that contract?
Why did 8 Smith Street sell for2.
2, but two months ago, you know,7 Smith Street sold for 1.
8?
What's the difference on thatside of the street to the other?
So I think what's reallyimportant is how you interpret
that information, and we do havea tendency to get quite
(06:37):
transactional about it.
So we say, oh, this solved forthis, this solved for that, so
that means blah, and your homealso has four bedrooms, two
bathrooms, and is on a similarsized block, so it must mean
this.
actually, in truth,understanding how that home is
used, who lived in it whatimprovements have been made, its
proximity to services, schoolzones.
(07:01):
That's how you one, can win morebusiness, but two squeeze more
money out of, your buyers.
So I think the trap with data iswe're more informed than ever,
but what the top guys are doingis utilising that information
for interpretation.
Again, to probably go back tothe first point of humanising it
(07:21):
and making it something reallytangible for people who
primarily are buying with theirhearts, not their heads, to get
a better outcome for yourvendor.
And that means, what's lifegoing to be like living here?
What does it mean if I choosethis street versus two streets
over?
What does it mean to be in thisschool catchment versus that
school catchment?
We know these things now, wedon't have to hit the phone, but
(07:43):
what do they actually mean whenI'm living my life in this
place?
Rob Turnbull (07:47):
I love that point there.
How would an agency owner orprincipal then help their
younger or their newer agentsget that perspective, understand
the depth of that?
How would they mentor themthrough that?
Cain Cooke (08:01):
I think the great agencies are doing this by
bringing their recruits upthrough working underneath
experienced agents.
I always used to, butt upagainst this.
I was a young, young guy incentury 21 and we had very, very
experienced agents at the timein the early 2000s.
And I thought that I knew betterbecause, I was young, I was
(08:23):
enthusiastic, I wanted to changethe game.
But what really.
helped, and we're seeing thishappen in really formal
structures now, is where youhave the ability to slide
underneath the arm of somebodywho's been practicing for 10,
15, 20 years and really honedtheir craft.
So I think while the temptationfor new entrants to the industry
(08:47):
is to go, all right, I can goand get subscription to data.
I've got my form set.
We've got my CRM of I've got agreat network and I know, know
how to tap into that.
I can go and make money.
Sitting in a lounge room withsomebody who.
Has had these sorts ofconversations with vendors time
(09:07):
in time out or purchases to geta deal done and really
understanding the nuance of thecraft.
It is a nuanced craft dealingwith people, I think the
temptation often is to go, Oh,I'm going to go and work in a
big great agency because I wantto steal all their systems or
understand how efficient theyare.
It's not that it's the craft.
It's knowing when to pause, whatto say at the right time how to
(09:31):
read, the emotions of a humanbeing and then position things
in the right way to get the dealdone in the right way.
That's the power.
And I think the really greatagencies are offering that
through team structures, throughbeing able to work under elite
agents.
You might be two or three of youas a team and really hone your
(09:51):
craft.
before you stand up yourself andpotentially your own team and
pay that forward.
So it is much more structured inthat way these days for those
elite performers.
Rob Turnbull (10:02):
I love the term you use, humanizing it, because
that's really what it comes downto.
It's a people game, isn't it?
But if we skip away from peopleall of a sudden, and let's go to
the hot topic of the last coupleof years, AI.
I do remember some reallyinteresting people talking at
the recent REISA conference,actually, a couple of months
ago, about AI.
And there was quite some, Ithought, quite disturbing,
(10:23):
dystopian future where robotsand AI are going to be calling
all prospects.
And then.
We'll be calling using AI andresponding to AI.
Where do you see this fitting atthe moment?
What are agencies doing toembrace it?
And where do you think it'll go?
Cain Cooke (10:37):
There's a lot of parts for that question.
Rob that's a good one.
I think AI is a risk for ourbusiness if we don't think about
it in the right way.
There is this view that in thefuture, you know, I will have my
own AI version of Cain that willdeal with an AI version of Rob
and it'll know everything that Iknow and probably be a much
(10:57):
better version of me.
It'll be Cain on a good dayevery day.
And that I'll be able toinstruct that AI as to who I
want to engage with, how I wantto engage with them, and what's
important to me.
So actually getting through tothe human behind AI is going to
be extraordinarily difficult.
And for real estate agents, thatbecomes really challenging.
(11:19):
And what we do generally in ourindustry is we're really good at
adopting technology.
We're fantastic at doing thatearly, early days.
We love technology.
We're looking for the edge thereis an edge at the moment and we
are starting to see people useavatars of themselves to talk or
just try and sell property and,I generally think that's
(11:41):
dangerous.
I think the people that aregoing to win this game are the
ones that actually use AI not inthe sense of replicating
themselves but in taking awaythe mundane tasks.
So use AI to do all of the lowlevel tasks that aren't income
generating, to allow you tocompile information, to pull
(12:05):
reports together.
I think we'll see it more andmore start to assist us in
completing contracts, form ones,those sorts of things.
And they'll probably do it muchbetter than we can remove any
errors.
but.
The way we survive, again, is togo back to that human piece.
It's be belly to belly, be toeto toe, have the conversations,
(12:28):
make meaningful connections withpeople, show up and care, and
then let the AI do all the stuffthat doesn't require you to be
an empathetic human.
And I think the real estateagents that are going to win in
this space are the ones that dothat.
gone are the days where youcould say, I'm a great real
estate agent because I know howto fill in a form one better
(12:52):
than anybody else.
And I'm meticulous with mypaperwork, there will be a time
where machines will do that forus.
In fact, I think it's closerthan we probably all realise and
the ones that will win againwill be the ones that can turn
up, can connect, can understandyour motivation for buying or
selling and produce a brilliantoutcome and then continue to
personalise that relationship.
Rob Turnbull (13:13):
What you're saying there seems pretty true at how
AI is being used at the moment.
Because it probably hasn't gotto a point where we can
confidently use it elsewhere.
But once again, you're right.
You know, we talked earlierabout your times at Century 21,
where technology was juststarting to develop, perhaps we
can compare the way that AI isoperating now, as in when we
started getting spreadsheets andemails happening, it just made
(13:36):
mundane tasks quicker and easierand gave us the opportunity to
do more volume every day.
Cain Cooke (13:41):
And I would say, you know, I was, there when we
started doing, you know,broadcast email alerts for just
listed, you know, that was sucha coup, but then did that and
then the person down the roadwas doing that and the other
person and then all of a suddenconsumers were being, and this
probably sounds reallyrudimentary for people that are
(14:01):
listening to this, that are, youknow, using really sophisticated
tools, but this was a thing, youknow, we could upload a photo to
the internet and then we couldemail people a just listed,, it
was, you know, cutting edgestuff.
In, you know, 2002, whatever itwas.
but what happened very rapidlyis that everybody was doing it
and we were spamming people.
So people were absolutely beinghammered Then what happened is
(14:23):
people started to think abouthow you create value.
So the people who could takethat technological leap and go,
how do I take what is being usedcurrently is just to kind of, I
think you'll like this house.
Here it is in your inbox,instead go I understand you, I
understand your motivations forbuying.
(14:44):
I understand that you wantunique insights about the
marketplace or what's happeningin your local area and creating
value for those people that arecommunicating with, they started
to win the race rather thanthose that were just uniformly
bombarding.
And I think that's probablygoing to be the same thing with,
well, any emerging technology isif we put ourselves and I'm
(15:07):
probably going to be bitcontroversial here, but many
people in the industry that haveheard me talk, I talk about this
all the time.
Proptech has made agencypractice really efficient.
Most of it is aimed at, us aspractitioners and making our
businesses more efficient sothat we can create more money.
Little of it is focused at theconsumer.
(15:29):
I'm and actually, in a lot ofcases, when we adopt some of
this technology, it requires theconsumer to do more.
So it requires them to inputdata for us to make our life
easier.
I think the agencies who arestarting to lean in and go, how
do I create value for the buyeror the seller?
The landlord or the tenant,rather than just efficiencies
(15:53):
for me, and don't get me wrong,efficiencies are very important
in business.
It's how we, how we do makemoney and we keep things moving.
But if we put the lens of, weare here to serve the end user.
and technology should do that,how do I create value for them
so that they choose me, versushow I've created value for
(16:16):
myself within my business byadopting all these technologies.
That's something I'm reallypassionate about, and I don't
think we're quite there yet but,As we do do that and the people
that are able to do that,they're going to win big time
because consumers will flock tothem.
Rob Turnbull (16:30):
I love how you flip that there, right?
You've talked about technology,let's get away from what
technology can do behind thescenes in our business, how
technology adds value, and it'sreally important.
And your perspective there thatfirst movers will get that first
jump is really a valid one.
And so on that, you know, thefirst movers tend to be the ones
that are more agile.
They tend to be the ones thatare more connected.
(16:51):
Potentially, they tend to bemedium to large in this space
because they actually have thecapability to take a step back.
They might have teams that cando this.
Do you have any recommendationsor any ideas for smaller
agencies and agents who mightwant to get on this and try and
understand how they can addvalue to their customer using
tech, given they've got theirday job, which is, you know,
being a real estate agent?
Cain Cooke (17:12):
Yeah.
Oh, look, I think it doesn'thave to be complicated.
So if we think about things likewe live in a world of social
media now, and a lot of these AItools are now integrated into,
you know, Instagram intoFacebook.
Meta's got them sitting there.
So that allows you to understandbetter.
You can use things like ChatGPTto help you create content in a
(17:36):
really tangible way.
You've got to, got to do itsensibly These tools are
universal.
they're not things that requireyou to you know, be turning over
50 million or a hundred milliondollars and have a team of
developers.
There's definitely business outthere that are doing that, and
they're gonna play with thesetools and do some things.
But if you're a smaller practiceor you are just starting out,
(17:58):
there's actually a myriad oftools that you can access
within.
Things that you're using everyday I think most of us even even
me these days, we spend a lotmore spend a lot more time on
Instagram than I probablyshould.
But those tools are actuallyembedded in there to help you
find customers to generatecontent.
And you don't have to pay forthem.
They already exist.
So, don't be afraid of leaninginto applications that you're
(18:24):
already using.
You're probably using Office 365Suite, most of us do, to do our
business.
That's got AI integrated into itthat can help you write things
faster.
It can help you proof.
So these are little things, Isuppose, but, they're all about
creating, those efficiencies foryourself.
And I would always kind ofrecommend to people, something
(18:48):
that I get talked a lot about isAI chatbots.
All the time people raise thisbecause I think, When we're in
real estate, we get conversationfatigue.
You know, we spend our days thephone and talking to people.
And if you're not doing that,you, you're not doing real
estate, you know, that's, that'sthe job.
but we do always kind of lookfor these shortcuts can I, use a
AI chat bot?
(19:08):
That will kind of sound like meor will give people the answers
that I have to talk to them.
That comes up a lot.
They're okay in a realtransactional sense.
I think if you're, you're tryingto buy an item online or in
retail, I've worked in retail.
they kind of work.
They've been around for a whilein a certain sense, but when
you're talking about sellingyour largest asset or making
(19:30):
your largest investment, youwant to deal with a human being.
And you want to deal withsomebody that you can trust.
So, make sure that, even thoughwe do get conversation fatigue
and that's a real thing don'trely on technology to fill a gap
that, is the way you winbusiness is actually being is
human, human to human connectionand trust.
Rob Turnbull (19:52):
I love how this theme throughout this
conversation today has beenhumanizing things.
Cain Cooke (19:56):
Yes,
Rob Turnbull (19:56):
and I think it's quite valid because we do get
caught up a lot in, in, inplatforms and technology and how
we can do things.
End of the day, it's the personthat has to go out there, make
the phone call, go and, andclose a property, right?
So that's, that's pretty valid.
Just one final thing.
What's your view on agencygroups and their role in helping
their smaller agency memberslift up in their tech space?
Cain Cooke (20:20):
I actually probably see it in the same way that we
think about it in at the RealEstate Institute of South
Australia.
So, we think that our job is notto tell you what to do.
And I think marketing brandgroups kind of getting in that
space too.
And that is about helping youfind the best best system or
structure for you.
So there, there are some, youknow, prolific systems and
(20:45):
platforms that are being used, Ithink if I talk about property
Me everyone knows PropertyMe,there's lots of people using
that.
It doesn't mean that it'snecessarily right for you, for
your size of business, for theway you want to deliver your
experience.
In a lot of cases, it is, right?
It's, you know, I'm not takinganything away from it.
But when I think about brandgroups, when I think about
(21:05):
REISA, our job is to help.
When you consider there'sthousands and thousands of prop
techs and systems out there, ourjob is to help you make the
decision about what you use andwhat's best for you more
rapidly.
Because.
You can get lost very quicklyand and there is no one size
fits all system that does all ofthe things.
(21:27):
You need to use multiple systemsand pull them together and
helping you understand whereyour data lives, where the
developers are how these peopleare going to support you if
things go wrong.
Is it secure?
Where's the value that you canextract from it?
what parts of the system you'regoing to use who's a trusted
(21:50):
vendor versus, you know, who'sexperimental.
they're the jobs that we have.
Real estate agents should begreat at real estate, not at
technology.
Mm.
there are, there's amazingpeople out there who are really
good at this stuff.
And you need to lean into them.
So, if I think about the waythat I see real estate
practitioners and the way we winthe game, it's about becoming a
(22:11):
trusted advisor.
So, in the same way that we havean accountant, a lawyer, we
might have a financial advisor,there are trusted ecosystem of
people.
And we should always have a realestate agent.
I genuinely believe that.
But you also need somebody intechnology who's a trusted
advisor.
And brand groups can do that.
There's obviously lots ofexternal independent people as
well that can do that.
(22:31):
You can look to your yourinstitute or or even quite often
I find some of the bigger brandsare also really happy to share
what they're doing.
Maybe that's a very Adelaidething too, but in South
Australia, I think we're alwaysvery happy to share to say, Oh,
look, we're trying this, or weuse this system and it's great.
Or, or yeah, don't touch thatone because it's a, it's a bit
of a disaster zone.
So I think don't feel like youneed to be an expert in
(22:54):
technology.
I ran a technology business andI'm not an expert in technology,
but I was surrounded by peoplethat were, and I
Rob Turnbull (23:01):
asked them
Cain Cooke (23:01):
questions and they gave me great advice.
The role of brand is to providegood structure, good advisory,
in some cases, great systems.
And when I was at Century 21, wehad e sales, which was a web
based CRM, which was kind ofthis revolutionary thing at the
time.
That's just the way the worldworks now, right?
You know, wind the clock forward20 years, that's, we've all got
(23:25):
them.
and, that's the challenge iskeeping up.
But what I would say.
In that context, too, is thatour ability to be agile and Not
getting bogged down in systemsis also really important because
the space is dynamic.
There's something new comingaround the corner all the time.
(23:45):
I went to London Tech Week inJune.
And there I found guys from NewZealand called ApplyID that do
Anti money laundering check andID verification.
I was like, oh, that's great.
We can plug that in.
But my mindset went, yeah, wecan plug that in.
Not, going to go and wed myselfto these guys, how does this fit
(24:05):
into existing ecosystems thatsolves the problem?
So how do we, um, extract asmuch value as we can, and those
guys probably kill me for sayingthis, but how do we extract the
value now that's available bythem being, leading edge
integrated into our systemsahead of, you know, changes in
things like anti moneylaundering, which we're
expecting this year.
(24:27):
But position it in a way that ifsomething better comes along or
things change or expectationschange that we can adopt the
next best.
The system that we were using 15years ago is not the system that
anybody is using today.
Don't expect that the systemthat you're using today is the
system that you're going to beusing in five or 10 years time.
Rob Turnbull (24:46):
I think a real good insight there is the plug
it in thing.
I do this a lot at work.
Plug it in.
We just plug it in.
Because data's easy to plug in.
It really isn't, apparently.
But
Cain Cooke (24:54):
There's people who can do that for you.
Rob Turnbull (24:56):
That's right.
Yeah.
You get an expert.
But I guess that's what youwant, isn't it, from these
systems.
You want to have this plug andplay ability.
But then you also have the, theunplug ability.
And to plug something else in.
I think, so if I'm going to taketwo things away to the Property
Edge team at Land Services fromour conversation today, Cain.
One, it's going to be thatability to, to jump in and jump
out.
(25:16):
That, that plug thing that youjust talked about there, because
I think that's, that's valid.
And the other one is humanizingdata.
You know, we, we've madeProperty Edge to be this
platform where it's really easyto access loads of data.
Really, really good andpertinent data.
Unique and trustworthy data.
But how do we then take it aslevel up in the pyramid of, of,
use How do we humanize that?
How do we make it moredigestible for people to take
(25:38):
away and use in their own day today offering?
So I appreciate what you've donethere with those insights.
And let me thank you there forfor joining me today.
Absolute pleasure, Rob thanksfor having me on, That's been
some really interestingperspectives.
I hope the listeners at homehave received something that
they can take away into theirown business.
Certainly, we will be atProperty Edge.
And do remember, subscribe tothis podcast if you've got value
(25:59):
today.
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The Property Edge podcast is produced by Land
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Rob (00:03):
On today's episode or the property edge podcast.
Cain Cooke (00:06):
Real estate agents should be great at real estate,
not at technology.
I think AI is a risk for ourbusiness if we don't think about
it in the right way.
Don't expect that the systemthat you're using today is the
system that you're going to beusing in five or 10 years time
Mhm.
Rob Turnbull (00:23):
Hello and welcome to the Property Edge podcast.
My name's Rob Turnbull.
Join me on a journey ofdiscovery as we discover the
tools, the technology, theplatforms, the data, the AI that
are powering today's real estateand property leaders and giving
them the edge.
And this information will alsoguide our Property Edge workflow
(00:44):
in the future to understand whatelse we can put into Property
Edge to give you, the user, morecapabilities.
And today I'm joined withsomeone who will have a really
different perspective on this.
As the president of the RealEstate Institute of South
Australia, Cain Cook has done alot for the industry over the
last few years.
But he's not even involveddirectly in a real estate agency
anymore.
Good morning, Cain.
(01:04):
Thanks for joining.
Cain Cooke (01:05):
Good morning, Rob.
Thanks for having me on.
Rob Turnbull (01:08):
Now we just mentioned before we started
recording, that it's been about15 years since you were Century
21.
What, what have you been doingwith yourself since then?
Cain Cooke (01:16):
I've done a lot of different things, in the last 15
years.
I've went and run a little juicebar that everybody might be
familiar with called BoostJuice.
I've was part of the team thatbrought Specsavers to Australia.
I've run a South Australiancoffee chain Chibo.
Run an IT company and in thelast couple of years, I've
launched a couple of my ownventures one being a electric
(01:36):
motorcycle company, which Iguess is very much in the
technology space, and and a tinyhomes business as well.
So, I've kind of, traversed anumber of industries since
leaving the gold jacket behindgold being the a loose word, I
think, around the color of that.
But yeah.
It's, it certainly gives me areally interesting vantage point
(01:57):
from which to think about notonly the real estate industry,
but I guess business in general.
Rob Turnbull (02:03):
And so, as the RISA president, you're always
keeping connected with theindustry, obviously, and you'd
have some solid relationships,and you're operating almost
daily in that industry.
But you know, as I always harpon about, the technology is
great.
But if you haven't got theexecution there, that technology
doesn't matter whatsoever.
So sometimes rather thanupgrading technology, it's
important to upgrade people andhelp them understand that.
(02:25):
How have you seen that since youstepped away from the industry?
How have you seen technologychange things?
Cain Cooke (02:30):
In, in many, many ways and then in, in no ways at
all you know, I'm old enough toremember when I started in the
industry, you know, we used tostill take a, camera and digital
cameras would become a thing andwe'd take photos and then print
them out.
and stick them on a window card.
You know, that, that's when Istarted the industry.
or when the advertiser went fromblack and white sketches to
(02:51):
color which at the time was, youknow, a revelation.
I think industry, and from atechnology perspective we're
still doing a lot of the sameprocesses that we were doing
before, we've just removed a lotof the manual component.
So there's obviously a lot ofautomation and that allows
property managers salespeople todo volume.
(03:12):
I think that's the real shiftthat I've seen is the ability to
work faster, to sell more homes,to lease more homes, to manage
more homes.
That's the real shift.
The real observation that I'veseen is 20 years ago when I got
in, some of the sort of volumeof transactions that we're
seeing people do we never wouldhave dreamed of at that time.
(03:34):
And that's all because they'vegot a supportive ecosystem
around them.
And it allows great salespeoplein particular to really hone in
on what they're great at.
And fundamentally, this is apeople business.
So, when you have great peoplepeople listing and selling
property and they're not havingto worry about triplicate pads
(03:58):
to sign a contract, they canactually have, technology to
facilitate that process, thatthey've got prompters around the
relationships or things that areimportant to people that are on
their database they can reallylean into In my view, one of the
two most critical parts of anyreal estate transaction, whether
that be on PM or sales, andthat's human.
(04:19):
So building, building thoserelationships and then also
having the space andintelligence through systems,
data, and insight to negotiatethe best outcome for their
vendor or their landlord.
And at the end of the day,that's, That's the job for,
Rob Turnbull (04:36):
And you see that throughout, right?
So you see technology coming inand allowing humans to be better
at the best things that they cando that technology can't do for
them.
And then technology takes awayall the, all the painful stuff
and also serves up a lot ofinformation to them in the form
of data.
And data points that previouslycouldn't be collected or very,
very dispersely connected.
Serve them up right there andthen in a timely manner for
(04:57):
people to make decisions.
In that space then, in thatserving up data space, what are
you seeing that, the top 10percent agencies, what are they
arming their teams with thatperhaps other agencies should
perhaps consider or look into?
Cain Cooke (05:12):
from my perspective, I think it's actually about the
interpretation of data.
So, you know, if, if we considerthat great real estate agent
their knowledge of the marketand the market dynamics now 20
years ago, we used to get thatfrom hitting the phone and
talking to our peers or we'd seeit under contract sticker go up
(05:33):
on a property and we'd call, youknow, what did you get for it?
What's it look like?
You know, so that we could getthose market insights.
Those market insights Nowavailable through things like
Property Edge, which is, a greatproduct, but, whether that be
through CoreLogic or acompetitive product as well.
I think what the great agenciesdo and great agents is actually
(05:55):
use that data and interpret itin real terms.
So it's all well and good for usto know that, you know, 8 Smith
Street sold for 2.
2 million.
But what does that actuallymean?
How did that happen?
sell for 2.
2 million.
What was the marketing campaignthat went behind it?
What did the buyer profile looklike?
(06:16):
What sort of conditions were setaround that contract?
Why did 8 Smith Street sell for2.
2, but two months ago, you know,7 Smith Street sold for 1.
8?
What's the difference on thatside of the street to the other?
So I think what's reallyimportant is how you interpret
that information, and we do havea tendency to get quite
(06:37):
transactional about it.
So we say, oh, this solved forthis, this solved for that, so
that means blah, and your homealso has four bedrooms, two
bathrooms, and is on a similarsized block, so it must mean
this.
actually, in truth,understanding how that home is
used, who lived in it whatimprovements have been made, its
proximity to services, schoolzones.
(07:01):
That's how you one, can win morebusiness, but two squeeze more
money out of, your buyers.
So I think the trap with data iswe're more informed than ever,
but what the top guys are doingis utilising that information
for interpretation.
Again, to probably go back tothe first point of humanising it
(07:21):
and making it something reallytangible for people who
primarily are buying with theirhearts, not their heads, to get
a better outcome for yourvendor.
And that means, what's lifegoing to be like living here?
What does it mean if I choosethis street versus two streets
over?
What does it mean to be in thisschool catchment versus that
school catchment?
We know these things now, wedon't have to hit the phone, but
(07:43):
what do they actually mean whenI'm living my life in this
place?
Rob Turnbull (07:47):
I love that point there.
How would an agency owner orprincipal then help their
younger or their newer agentsget that perspective, understand
the depth of that?
How would they mentor themthrough that?
Cain Cooke (08:01):
I think the great agencies are doing this by
bringing their recruits upthrough working underneath
experienced agents.
I always used to, butt upagainst this.
I was a young, young guy incentury 21 and we had very, very
experienced agents at the timein the early 2000s.
And I thought that I knew betterbecause, I was young, I was
(08:23):
enthusiastic, I wanted to changethe game.
But what really.
helped, and we're seeing thishappen in really formal
structures now, is where youhave the ability to slide
underneath the arm of somebodywho's been practicing for 10,
15, 20 years and really honedtheir craft.
So I think while the temptationfor new entrants to the industry
(08:47):
is to go, all right, I can goand get subscription to data.
I've got my form set.
We've got my CRM of I've got agreat network and I know, know
how to tap into that.
I can go and make money.
Sitting in a lounge room withsomebody who.
Has had these sorts ofconversations with vendors time
(09:07):
in time out or purchases to geta deal done and really
understanding the nuance of thecraft.
It is a nuanced craft dealingwith people, I think the
temptation often is to go, Oh,I'm going to go and work in a
big great agency because I wantto steal all their systems or
understand how efficient theyare.
It's not that it's the craft.
It's knowing when to pause, whatto say at the right time how to
(09:31):
read, the emotions of a humanbeing and then position things
in the right way to get the dealdone in the right way.
That's the power.
And I think the really greatagencies are offering that
through team structures, throughbeing able to work under elite
agents.
You might be two or three of youas a team and really hone your
(09:51):
craft.
before you stand up yourself andpotentially your own team and
pay that forward.
So it is much more structured inthat way these days for those
elite performers.
Rob Turnbull (10:02):
I love the term you use, humanizing it, because
that's really what it comes downto.
It's a people game, isn't it?
But if we skip away from peopleall of a sudden, and let's go to
the hot topic of the last coupleof years, AI.
I do remember some reallyinteresting people talking at
the recent REISA conference,actually, a couple of months
ago, about AI.
And there was quite some, Ithought, quite disturbing,
(10:23):
dystopian future where robotsand AI are going to be calling
all prospects.
And then.
We'll be calling using AI andresponding to AI.
Where do you see this fitting atthe moment?
What are agencies doing toembrace it?
And where do you think it'll go?
Cain Cooke (10:37):
There's a lot of parts for that question.
Rob that's a good one.
I think AI is a risk for ourbusiness if we don't think about
it in the right way.
There is this view that in thefuture, you know, I will have my
own AI version of Cain that willdeal with an AI version of Rob
and it'll know everything that Iknow and probably be a much
(10:57):
better version of me.
It'll be Cain on a good dayevery day.
And that I'll be able toinstruct that AI as to who I
want to engage with, how I wantto engage with them, and what's
important to me.
So actually getting through tothe human behind AI is going to
be extraordinarily difficult.
And for real estate agents, thatbecomes really challenging.
(11:19):
And what we do generally in ourindustry is we're really good at
adopting technology.
We're fantastic at doing thatearly, early days.
We love technology.
We're looking for the edge thereis an edge at the moment and we
are starting to see people useavatars of themselves to talk or
just try and sell property and,I generally think that's
(11:41):
dangerous.
I think the people that aregoing to win this game are the
ones that actually use AI not inthe sense of replicating
themselves but in taking awaythe mundane tasks.
So use AI to do all of the lowlevel tasks that aren't income
generating, to allow you tocompile information, to pull
(12:05):
reports together.
I think we'll see it more andmore start to assist us in
completing contracts, form ones,those sorts of things.
And they'll probably do it muchbetter than we can remove any
errors.
but.
The way we survive, again, is togo back to that human piece.
It's be belly to belly, be toeto toe, have the conversations,
(12:28):
make meaningful connections withpeople, show up and care, and
then let the AI do all the stuffthat doesn't require you to be
an empathetic human.
And I think the real estateagents that are going to win in
this space are the ones that dothat.
gone are the days where youcould say, I'm a great real
estate agent because I know howto fill in a form one better
(12:52):
than anybody else.
And I'm meticulous with mypaperwork, there will be a time
where machines will do that forus.
In fact, I think it's closerthan we probably all realise and
the ones that will win againwill be the ones that can turn
up, can connect, can understandyour motivation for buying or
selling and produce a brilliantoutcome and then continue to
personalise that relationship.
Rob Turnbull (13:13):
What you're saying there seems pretty true at how
AI is being used at the moment.
Because it probably hasn't gotto a point where we can
confidently use it elsewhere.
But once again, you're right.
You know, we talked earlierabout your times at Century 21,
where technology was juststarting to develop, perhaps we
can compare the way that AI isoperating now, as in when we
started getting spreadsheets andemails happening, it just made
(13:36):
mundane tasks quicker and easierand gave us the opportunity to
do more volume every day.
Cain Cooke (13:41):
And I would say, you know, I was, there when we
started doing, you know,broadcast email alerts for just
listed, you know, that was sucha coup, but then did that and
then the person down the roadwas doing that and the other
person and then all of a suddenconsumers were being, and this
probably sounds reallyrudimentary for people that are
(14:01):
listening to this, that are, youknow, using really sophisticated
tools, but this was a thing, youknow, we could upload a photo to
the internet and then we couldemail people a just listed,, it
was, you know, cutting edgestuff.
In, you know, 2002, whatever itwas.
but what happened very rapidlyis that everybody was doing it
and we were spamming people.
So people were absolutely beinghammered Then what happened is
(14:23):
people started to think abouthow you create value.
So the people who could takethat technological leap and go,
how do I take what is being usedcurrently is just to kind of, I
think you'll like this house.
Here it is in your inbox,instead go I understand you, I
understand your motivations forbuying.
(14:44):
I understand that you wantunique insights about the
marketplace or what's happeningin your local area and creating
value for those people that arecommunicating with, they started
to win the race rather thanthose that were just uniformly
bombarding.
And I think that's probablygoing to be the same thing with,
well, any emerging technology isif we put ourselves and I'm
(15:07):
probably going to be bitcontroversial here, but many
people in the industry that haveheard me talk, I talk about this
all the time.
Proptech has made agencypractice really efficient.
Most of it is aimed at, us aspractitioners and making our
businesses more efficient sothat we can create more money.
Little of it is focused at theconsumer.
(15:29):
I'm and actually, in a lot ofcases, when we adopt some of
this technology, it requires theconsumer to do more.
So it requires them to inputdata for us to make our life
easier.
I think the agencies who arestarting to lean in and go, how
do I create value for the buyeror the seller?
The landlord or the tenant,rather than just efficiencies
(15:53):
for me, and don't get me wrong,efficiencies are very important
in business.
It's how we, how we do makemoney and we keep things moving.
But if we put the lens of, weare here to serve the end user.
and technology should do that,how do I create value for them
so that they choose me, versushow I've created value for
(16:16):
myself within my business byadopting all these technologies.
That's something I'm reallypassionate about, and I don't
think we're quite there yet but,As we do do that and the people
that are able to do that,they're going to win big time
because consumers will flock tothem.
Rob Turnbull (16:30):
I love how you flip that there, right?
You've talked about technology,let's get away from what
technology can do behind thescenes in our business, how
technology adds value, and it'sreally important.
And your perspective there thatfirst movers will get that first
jump is really a valid one.
And so on that, you know, thefirst movers tend to be the ones
that are more agile.
They tend to be the ones thatare more connected.
(16:51):
Potentially, they tend to bemedium to large in this space
because they actually have thecapability to take a step back.
They might have teams that cando this.
Do you have any recommendationsor any ideas for smaller
agencies and agents who mightwant to get on this and try and
understand how they can addvalue to their customer using
tech, given they've got theirday job, which is, you know,
being a real estate agent?
Cain Cooke (17:12):
Yeah.
Oh, look, I think it doesn'thave to be complicated.
So if we think about things likewe live in a world of social
media now, and a lot of these AItools are now integrated into,
you know, Instagram intoFacebook.
Meta's got them sitting there.
So that allows you to understandbetter.
You can use things like ChatGPTto help you create content in a
(17:36):
really tangible way.
You've got to, got to do itsensibly These tools are
universal.
they're not things that requireyou to you know, be turning over
50 million or a hundred milliondollars and have a team of
developers.
There's definitely business outthere that are doing that, and
they're gonna play with thesetools and do some things.
But if you're a smaller practiceor you are just starting out,
(17:58):
there's actually a myriad oftools that you can access
within.
Things that you're using everyday I think most of us even even
me these days, we spend a lotmore spend a lot more time on
Instagram than I probablyshould.
But those tools are actuallyembedded in there to help you
find customers to generatecontent.
And you don't have to pay forthem.
They already exist.
So, don't be afraid of leaninginto applications that you're
(18:24):
already using.
You're probably using Office 365Suite, most of us do, to do our
business.
That's got AI integrated into itthat can help you write things
faster.
It can help you proof.
So these are little things, Isuppose, but, they're all about
creating, those efficiencies foryourself.
And I would always kind ofrecommend to people, something
(18:48):
that I get talked a lot about isAI chatbots.
All the time people raise thisbecause I think, When we're in
real estate, we get conversationfatigue.
You know, we spend our days thephone and talking to people.
And if you're not doing that,you, you're not doing real
estate, you know, that's, that'sthe job.
but we do always kind of lookfor these shortcuts can I, use a
AI chat bot?
(19:08):
That will kind of sound like meor will give people the answers
that I have to talk to them.
That comes up a lot.
They're okay in a realtransactional sense.
I think if you're, you're tryingto buy an item online or in
retail, I've worked in retail.
they kind of work.
They've been around for a whilein a certain sense, but when
you're talking about sellingyour largest asset or making
(19:30):
your largest investment, youwant to deal with a human being.
And you want to deal withsomebody that you can trust.
So, make sure that, even thoughwe do get conversation fatigue
and that's a real thing don'trely on technology to fill a gap
that, is the way you winbusiness is actually being is
human, human to human connectionand trust.
Rob Turnbull (19:52):
I love how this theme throughout this
conversation today has beenhumanizing things.
Cain Cooke (19:56):
Yes,
Rob Turnbull (19:56):
and I think it's quite valid because we do get
caught up a lot in, in, inplatforms and technology and how
we can do things.
End of the day, it's the personthat has to go out there, make
the phone call, go and, andclose a property, right?
So that's, that's pretty valid.
Just one final thing.
What's your view on agencygroups and their role in helping
their smaller agency memberslift up in their tech space?
Cain Cooke (20:20):
I actually probably see it in the same way that we
think about it in at the RealEstate Institute of South
Australia.
So, we think that our job is notto tell you what to do.
And I think marketing brandgroups kind of getting in that
space too.
And that is about helping youfind the best best system or
structure for you.
So there, there are some, youknow, prolific systems and
(20:45):
platforms that are being used, Ithink if I talk about property
Me everyone knows PropertyMe,there's lots of people using
that.
It doesn't mean that it'snecessarily right for you, for
your size of business, for theway you want to deliver your
experience.
In a lot of cases, it is, right?
It's, you know, I'm not takinganything away from it.
But when I think about brandgroups, when I think about
(21:05):
REISA, our job is to help.
When you consider there'sthousands and thousands of prop
techs and systems out there, ourjob is to help you make the
decision about what you use andwhat's best for you more
rapidly.
Because.
You can get lost very quicklyand and there is no one size
fits all system that does all ofthe things.
(21:27):
You need to use multiple systemsand pull them together and
helping you understand whereyour data lives, where the
developers are how these peopleare going to support you if
things go wrong.
Is it secure?
Where's the value that you canextract from it?
what parts of the system you'regoing to use who's a trusted
(21:50):
vendor versus, you know, who'sexperimental.
they're the jobs that we have.
Real estate agents should begreat at real estate, not at
technology.
Mm.
there are, there's amazingpeople out there who are really
good at this stuff.
And you need to lean into them.
So, if I think about the waythat I see real estate
practitioners and the way we winthe game, it's about becoming a
(22:11):
trusted advisor.
So, in the same way that we havean accountant, a lawyer, we
might have a financial advisor,there are trusted ecosystem of
people.
And we should always have a realestate agent.
I genuinely believe that.
But you also need somebody intechnology who's a trusted
advisor.
And brand groups can do that.
There's obviously lots ofexternal independent people as
well that can do that.
(22:31):
You can look to your yourinstitute or or even quite often
I find some of the bigger brandsare also really happy to share
what they're doing.
Maybe that's a very Adelaidething too, but in South
Australia, I think we're alwaysvery happy to share to say, Oh,
look, we're trying this, or weuse this system and it's great.
Or, or yeah, don't touch thatone because it's a, it's a bit
of a disaster zone.
So I think don't feel like youneed to be an expert in
(22:54):
technology.
I ran a technology business andI'm not an expert in technology,
but I was surrounded by peoplethat were, and I
Rob Turnbull (23:01):
asked them
Cain Cooke (23:01):
questions and they gave me great advice.
The role of brand is to providegood structure, good advisory,
in some cases, great systems.
And when I was at Century 21, wehad e sales, which was a web
based CRM, which was kind ofthis revolutionary thing at the
time.
That's just the way the worldworks now, right?
You know, wind the clock forward20 years, that's, we've all got
(23:25):
them.
and, that's the challenge iskeeping up.
But what I would say.
In that context, too, is thatour ability to be agile and Not
getting bogged down in systemsis also really important because
the space is dynamic.
There's something new comingaround the corner all the time.
(23:45):
I went to London Tech Week inJune.
And there I found guys from NewZealand called ApplyID that do
Anti money laundering check andID verification.
I was like, oh, that's great.
We can plug that in.
But my mindset went, yeah, wecan plug that in.
Not, going to go and wed myselfto these guys, how does this fit
(24:05):
into existing ecosystems thatsolves the problem?
So how do we, um, extract asmuch value as we can, and those
guys probably kill me for sayingthis, but how do we extract the
value now that's available bythem being, leading edge
integrated into our systemsahead of, you know, changes in
things like anti moneylaundering, which we're
expecting this year.
(24:27):
But position it in a way that ifsomething better comes along or
things change or expectationschange that we can adopt the
next best.
The system that we were using 15years ago is not the system that
anybody is using today.
Don't expect that the systemthat you're using today is the
system that you're going to beusing in five or 10 years time.
Rob Turnbull (24:46):
I think a real good insight there is the plug
it in thing.
I do this a lot at work.
Plug it in.
We just plug it in.
Because data's easy to plug in.
It really isn't, apparently.
But
Cain Cooke (24:54):
There's people who can do that for you.
Rob Turnbull (24:56):
That's right.
Yeah.
You get an expert.
But I guess that's what youwant, isn't it, from these
systems.
You want to have this plug andplay ability.
But then you also have the, theunplug ability.
And to plug something else in.
I think, so if I'm going to taketwo things away to the Property
Edge team at Land Services fromour conversation today, Cain.
One, it's going to be thatability to, to jump in and jump
out.
(25:16):
That, that plug thing that youjust talked about there, because
I think that's, that's valid.
And the other one is humanizingdata.
You know, we, we've madeProperty Edge to be this
platform where it's really easyto access loads of data.
Really, really good andpertinent data.
Unique and trustworthy data.
But how do we then take it aslevel up in the pyramid of, of,
use How do we humanize that?
How do we make it moredigestible for people to take
(25:38):
away and use in their own day today offering?
So I appreciate what you've donethere with those insights.
And let me thank you there forfor joining me today.
Absolute pleasure, Rob thanksfor having me on, That's been
some really interestingperspectives.
I hope the listeners at homehave received something that
they can take away into theirown business.
Certainly, we will be atProperty Edge.
And do remember, subscribe tothis podcast if you've got value
(25:59):
today.
Head over to propertyedge.
app if you'd like moreinformation about what we do,
and also to sign up for ourmonthly newsletter.
Until the next time, bye bye.
sonic logo
Duncan (26:14):
The Property Edge podcast is produced by Land
Services S A.
Learnings from the show helpinform the ongoing development
of the Property Edge propertyresearch platform.
Visit w w w dot propertyedge dotapp to learn more.
And yes, well done if you pickedit, this is an ai voice.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.