September 11, 2024 • 55 mins
How do we optimize our bodies and our brains for learning new things? In this episode of The Psychedelic Report, Dr. Dave Rabin welcomes back nutritional biochemist Shawn Wells to explore the often-overlooked topic of post-psychedelic supplementation. They discuss how to optimize the benefits of psychedelic experiences and ensure that the transformations achieved during these journeys can last longer.
Shawn shares his expertise on various supplements, nutrients, and dietary strategies that can enhance neuroplasticity, support mental health, and promote overall well-being after a psychedelic experience. The conversation covers essential topics such as hydration, the role of adaptogens, the importance of neurotransmitter repletion, and the impact of diet on recovery.
Tune in for valuable insights from leading experts in the field of Psychedelic Medicine.
Optimizing Psychedelic Medicine Experiences with Shawn Wells
Shawn shares his expertise on various supplements, nutrients, and dietary strategies that can enhance neuroplasticity, support mental health, and promote overall well-being after a psychedelic experience. The conversation covers essential topics such as hydration, the role of adaptogens, the importance of neurotransmitter repletion, and the impact of diet on recovery.
Tune in for valuable insights from leading experts in the field of Psychedelic Medicine.
Optimizing Psychedelic Medicine Experiences with Shawn Wells
- Web: https://shawnwells.com/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shawnwells
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrDavidRabin
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdavidrabin
- Web: https://www.drdave.io/
- Web: www.ApolloNeuro.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Psychedelic Reports.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Psychedelic drugs have played their part in America's long strange
trip toward an understanding of mind.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
All during drugs The Psychedelic News, leading physicians, scientists, and
experts share their wisdom about psychedelic medicines and healing. Fifty
years ago, psychedelic drugs were at the center of America's counterculture.
The brightest minds in psychedelic medicine the Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We use the kedemy assisted psychotherapy model that happens to
have psychedelic effects that were not predicted when the drug
was first developed.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
From researchers to investors.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I think the biggest mistake we pat as the culture
is the war of drugs.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So physicians to shamans and non private pioneers psychedelic drugs.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Recent research suggests some of them could have legitimate uses.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
lines of this exciting movement, The Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
your host, doctor Dave Raven. I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MBMA assisted therapy.
(01:21):
Today we're switching gears to go back to a topic
that is very interesting to me and something that's not
talked about that often, which is how to supplement after
a psychedelic experience to ensure that your improvements, your transformation,
whatever you were trying to get out of that experience
(01:42):
as the best chance of sticking around. The real question
is how do we optimize our bodies and our brains
for learning new things. Today I'm joined by a special
guest who is an expert in this particular area around
optimizing the body for learning and change and adaptation, transformation
and growth with supplements and nutrients. That's Sean Wells. He
(02:08):
is the world leading nutritional biochemist and expert on health optimization.
Sean has formulated over seven hundred supplements, food beverages and
cosmeceuticals and patented twenty novel ingredients and is now known
as the Ingredientologist, the Scientist of Ingredients. Formerly a chief
(02:28):
clinical dietitian with over a decade of experience, Sean has
counseled thousands of people on natural health solutions such as keto,
paleo fasting, and supplements. The reason why we took on
this topic today of how to make your psychedelic experiences
and the benefits that come from them last longer and
(02:49):
be more enjoyable, is because Sean and I have had
many of my most fun conversations on this very topic
and the topic that we covered on May twenty first,
in the first episode with Sean Wells on optimizing psychedelic
experiences and what nutrients, diet and supplements you can take
(03:09):
in advance to make sure that you have the best
possible psychedelic experiences and that your body is optimized for
those experiences. Because so many of you enjoyed that show
and asked for the information about what to take after,
I have brought Sean back to give us the lowdown
on what to take following psychedelic experiences and what not
(03:32):
to take to make sure that you have the most
long lasting benefits possible. Sean, thank you so much for
joining us today. It's such a pleasure to have you
back on the show.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Oh man, it's so good to be here. You know,
I love you. I love to talk about psychedelics and
the journey and the highs and lows of my hero's
journey and making impact. Like for me, this is I
just and I know you can appreciate this, but one
I get frustrated that psychedelics get you know, so pigeonholed,
(04:07):
and we're still at a point where it seems like
it's fringy, it seems like it's dangerous, it seems like
it's scary, and not to downplay that they're not highly
impactful and anything that's impactful. I've told people this before,
and supplement says, you know, a big supplement guy, and
it's like, look, anything that's efficacious has a risk. Like
(04:31):
the only things that don't have risks are things that
don't work, period, So you know that that's something that's important.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
There are also things that don't work that have risks.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That's a good point too, that's a really good point.
And I do have some concerns about maybe things getting
you know, legalized so quick and then people mixing them
with alcohol and celebrities you know, talking about like there's
the you know, this strain from Justin Bieber and this
strain from Kim Kardashian. You know, whatever it is, I
do have concerns about that. I'm not saying that those
(05:06):
celebrities are bad people. Is just giving random examples, but
you know, beyond that, Like I know, for me, these
compounds warp speed like put me in places that I
could have never ever, I believe truly got to in
eighty years. Like you know, the most important thing that
(05:29):
I see, and I'm kind of going on a tangent here,
but the most important thing that I've see as I've
continued to do this work, as I've looked at the science,
as I'm literally doing this in myself, and I've been
in the journey space with probably more than a thousand
people to this point, doing close to one hundred journeys.
Is disregulated nervous system is where the whole thing starts.
(05:52):
And of course I love you know, your device, the
Apollo and anything that works on that kind of paradigm,
you know, So that's that's where this whole thing starts.
And my full life I had a disregulated nervous system.
I was hyper vigilant, I was ultra sympathetic. I never yawned,
(06:16):
I didn't know how to fall asleep. I always felt
like I was in attack mode, mostly attacking myself. I
was definitely like not just the inner critic, I mean
it was it was a whole different level. Yeah, where
I was constantly criticizing myself, constantly be rating myself, and
(06:36):
my nervous system never felt at he's never felt safe.
And it's no wonder that I could never be successful
at intimacy or relationships because I was never safe with myself.
You know, as a man, you're supposed to you know,
create the container or like protect and provide. I couldn't
(06:58):
do that for myself.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So you know I look at like, yes, you know,
you have to do the work, but I look at
what psychedelics as the facilitator, not as the savior. And
this is true of you know, when you choose facilitators
to work with, don't trust anyone that's the guru, that's
the savior, that's the healer, that's the you know, on
(07:23):
and on and on, even doctors like yourself, Like it
has to be a facilitator, someone that facilitates your own empowerment,
your own growth, your own development, your own autonomy, your
own sovereignty. And for me, you know, that was you know,
I had two great facilitators, uh Ton Cole Whitty out
(07:44):
of Austin, and then I had, you know, some great
substances that also facilitated my development, and I just if
I didn't have those, I believe if I didn't have
the facilitators or the souther instances, I believe I would
be dead right now. And this is a conversation I
(08:04):
have with with audiences when I do my talks, is like, look,
there's you know, no matter where you stand, you know,
there's people right now that have fought for this country.
There's people right now that are you know, soldiers e mts,
people that are abuse victims that feel alone, that don't
(08:25):
have choices, that may take their own lives in the
next days or weeks or months to come. And so
no matter where you stand on these things, like I
and I know people listening right now are probably standing
with me, but you know, I implore you anyone listening, to
take a stand because it goes well beyond just you know,
(08:49):
fun substances or something that you can use on occasion,
and there's literally people dying that this may be the
only way that they can have a shift and learn
to feel safe in their body and therefore have people
around them that love them feel safe. So it's just
(09:10):
a little bit of a.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Tangent there, but no, I appreciate it, you know, and
that's very well said, and you know, grateful for your perspective,
because the fate of a lot of this work in
the psychedelic space is in question right now, and the
science and the results from the clinical trials have shown
that these medicines, when administered properly, under the proper guidance,
(09:34):
are nothing short of saving lives. Right We're seeing that
people's lives are being saved by the in some cases
anti suicidal properties and potent antidepressant properties of psychedelic medicines
in the way that because of the way that they
help us remake meaning and feel safe enough to remake
(09:56):
meaning around past traumatic events. And we need treatments like
this to be available. And I think you know, on
that note, we really appreciate you for taking the time,
in particular because you have a unique background in you know,
nutritional substances and supplements and the way that they interact
(10:18):
with the body. And one thing that has not been
a conversation in the clinical trials and science of psychedelics
world very much in at least not in the research
study side of it is what can we do that's
known and safe to augment the quality of our psychedelic experiences,
(10:40):
which is what we talked about together on our last
time we had you on the Psychedelic Report and also
today to talk about, you know, what we can do
nutritionally with supplements, with different tools in your domain of
expertise to improve the long lasting of effects of psychedelic experiences.
(11:02):
Because we talk a lot about the latest research about
how these substances, a lot of psychedelic medicines, ketamine, psilocybin,
likely NBMA, LSD, they all enhance what we call neuroplasticity,
and neuroplasticity is our ability to learn new things. So
we want to make sure we're learning the right new
things and those things stick right, And that is in
(11:23):
essence sort of like the whole fundamental goal of how
psychedelic medicines with the appropriate safe treatment are facilitating this
rapid learning of new patterns and restoring of new patterns
that are able to facilitate our own healing, our healing
that we did the work ourselves right, which is so
rewarding and so if it works for you, maybe we
(11:46):
can get right to it. And I would love to
hear about you know, maybe start by describing what is
the post psychedelic state like for people often that we're
ting to do something about.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, we're cracking open the operating system. To your point, right,
there's several things that are happening. You know this, but
maybe the people listening know some of this, but not
all of this. But like some of the key things
that are happening. Yes, neuroplasticity, so that means BDNF brain
or of neurotrophic factor means NNGF. Nerve growth factor means
(12:20):
m TOR because there's actually not just muscle protein synthesis
for you bodybuilders out there, but protein synthesis in the brain.
We're finding m TOUR is very important for that growth
and protection, neuroprotection and neuroplasticity. Neuroprotection neuroplasticity is the same
mechanisms because we're protecting existing neurons and creating new neurons
(12:44):
brain cells. And so to your point, neuroplasticity is the
ability to learn new things, which is fluid intelligence. As
we get older, that tends to decline. We're more crystallized intelligence,
which is kind of like as we get older, we
get better and better at finding the shortcuts, but we're
(13:04):
not as good at learning the new things. So this
is a way to keep your brain young as well
as take on new ideas. And of course there's all
the ways that you should be doing, like going to
new restaurants, new travels, new languages, new music, new friends,
new ideas, challenging your ideas. That's one thing I love
(13:26):
about getting into these psychedelic spaces. I have friends that
are extreme maga, conspiracy theory, left wing like whatever, like.
And you know what, there's a lot of respect and
love in these spaces no matter what ideal you're coming from.
And that's because we feel safe, so safe that we
(13:47):
can bring up ideas that are challenging.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Imagine that, like the fundamental assumptions we make about life
and other people and ourselves.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Exactly, we can have our own opinions and still resips others.
So one, we see neuroplasticity sky high. Two we see
neurotransmitters come back online, not just serotonin, all neurotransmitters. When
we're depressed, all neurotransmitters are down, not just serotonin. Across
(14:17):
the board, dopamine, acetylcholine, serotonin, endorphins, epinephrinor it's all down
because and same with neuroplasticity, all down, and same with
default mode network it's all the way up. It needs
your constructs there, and we want to feel less, and
the constructs are keeping us safe, and feeling less is
(14:41):
keeping us.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Safe because feelings are uncomfortable, exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And it can be traumatizing and your body doesn't know
whether this is new trauma or old trauma when you
keep reliving in right, but when we're in a safe environment,
and this is so important to your point because other
other wise, if neuroplasticity is up, neurotransmitters are up, default
mode networks turned down, and you're traumatized, that's a bad combination.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
This is why it's important, really, really really important to
be safe. And safe doesn't just mean safe to someone else.
Safe is what you deem safe. So even if this
facilitator is an amazing dude, he's been doing it for
twenty years, he's the best guy, but you're a woman
and you've been through sexual trauma and you just don't
(15:33):
feel safe around men.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yet, he's not the right guy. For you. Maybe the
right guy for all your friends, not for you. So
this is like really important that we're aware of what's
happening and how we can access the operating system and
rewrite the code. And so this is like the idea
(15:56):
that you've heard of with the you know, putting the
powder down on the slow over the ski tracks so
that you can find a new way to ski because
your brain will automatically want to keep going where they're
existing ski tracks are, so you can take a whole
new path. And this is where you can make massive
life changes that just really aren't possible even with the
(16:19):
best psychotherapy. And to your point, studies have shown yes,
psychotherapy can be great, but it's psychotherapy combined with neuroplasticity
and default mode network being down and empathy slash neurotransmitters
being turned up. And so my thought is how do
(16:40):
I keep those going in the weeks to come. So
it's important that you continue to have someone holding you
accountable that's hopefully that same facilitator or people that work
with you during that experience that are holding you accountable.
And then in those weeks to come, I want to
extend neuroplasticity. I want to bounce back with my neurotransmitters
(17:05):
because they get depleted. I want to replete them, not indefinitely,
but just for a period of time.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Until your body naturally takes over.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Again exactly exactly. And look, and you can make the
argument that there sometimes may be a reason, after we
have these massively expansive experiences neurotransmitters just flooding, that there
should be a time that things contract that we do
take time to kind of sit with it, to heal,
(17:38):
to let our nervous system relax. And this is what
happens in life, like when you go to that big
concert or you have like your wedding or you know whatever.
Like you can't do that indefinitely, but I do think
there is benefit to repeating some of these neurotransmitters. And
so what I like to do post journey is look
(18:01):
at hydration status is very important. It sounds so straightforward,
but I will tell you about eighty percent of the
population is dehydrated. Assume we know nothing, It has to
be said you cannot function well when you're dehydrated. You
will not sleep well, you will not think well, you
will not operate well. Your heart won't beat well. You
(18:22):
need the right electrolytes, and you need to be hydrated. Period.
It's like almost considered cliche or stupid, but it's not.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report. Can I just ask
you a quick question about that? Yeah, because you're one
hundred percent right that a lot of people, probably over
half of the Americans are dehydrated over half of the time,
and we just forget to drink water, and we also
forget to consume electrolytes which facilitate the absorption of water
(18:54):
into the cells.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
So I think a lot of people forget. And what
I'm starting to see become more common is and when
people drink too when people drink too much water because
I think they just need water, then they actually deplete
their cells of electrolytes, right, and they end up peeing
a lot of it out. It's still better than not
drinking water. But the best thing to do is to
drink water with a little bit of electrolyte in it,
(19:18):
like sodium, potassium, magnesium, right, And then that at least
that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that that
is actually the best way to get the most benefit
out of water. And you can feel it almost immediately
if you're dehydrated, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Sodium, you know, as like salt phobic, as we tend
to be about eighty percent of what we lose when
we're dehydrated through sweat or urine is sodium. Sodium is
absolutely critical to performance. I know as a ketogenic diet
or at least for a fair amount of my life.
That like, every time I would have sodium, whether I
(19:52):
was on keto or fasting, it would take away my appetite,
it would turn my brain back on, like I could
feel like literally lights come on, like it's cat or something.
And so I think a lot of us are saltphobic,
and so I would say, like, if nothing else, if
you can't get other electrolytes, throw a little salt in
your water and that's helpful. Magnesium is huge in terms
(20:16):
of muscle contraction, brain function, vowel regularity. I mean we're
hearing about that constantly too, Like the three that you
hear about that majority of Americans are deficient and essentially
they are dehydrated Vitamin D as well as magnesium. So
if you're suboptimal, that's not a good place to be.
(20:36):
So definitely, let's talk about getting to the foundation of
optimizing and then beyond that. I like the adaptogens before, during, well,
before and after. The reason I love the adaptogens is
they are bimodal, meaning that they work on both sides
of the equation. So you know, something like caffeine comes
(20:58):
at a cost, right, it gives you energy, but it
comes at a cost you might not sleep as well
things like that. With adaptagens, you sleep better and you
feel more focused and energized. Why because it's actually optimizing
you beyond what your potential is. It's actually increasing your
allostatic capacity or your stress bucket, right, And so adaptogens,
(21:21):
I feel like, are really a foundation at helping your
nervous system have a greater capacity for mental and physical stress.
Your body doesn't know the difference, and you're going through
a lot of mental stress in these situations, and so
you'll you'll be able to deal with more. And I
think that's so Like some of my favorites are like
(21:44):
Ashvia Ganda Rodeola Maka Lion's main gin saying probably Ashmaganda
Rodeol are my two favorites. But like I think, you know,
bringing those into the fold is going to be helpful
especially if you feel like it's been stressful, you feel
like leading up to it, you know, you know this
(22:05):
going into the the journey, I've seen people like have
you know, full on breakdowns because it's coming up from
unconscious to subconscious to conscious mind. As they say, the
journey starts when you commit to it, right, and so
there's a stress associated with that. People are going to
(22:26):
see me, how am I going to make this change? Like,
you know, I know I should get divorced, but it's
like it's just too much.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It's a lot.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Maybe maybe it'll happen for me somehow, like I can't
do this myself. And you know, there's a lot, there's
a lot going into these experiences. So you know, helping
your nervous system again get regulated when it's disregulated is important.
And I think you know, being on these adaptogens can
be helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Can I ask you about a couple of the adaptagens?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, CBD, awesome. So this is a really really really
great point, doctor Dave. Is that the endocannabinoid system the ecs, Like,
think about this for a second. This is almost like
the psychedelics thing. This is a system similar to like
musculo skeletal cardiovascular, the endocannabinoid system controls pain, the immune
(23:22):
system like recovery, wellness and kind of well being and mood.
How many doctors that specialize in the ECS.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
They don't even teach it in men spin they don't
teach it.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
They don't teach it. I mean, I think the four
to eight hours that yeah on nutrition is already not enough.
But there's a zero on the ECS. Yeah, And this
is crazy, like we don't test for it. We don't
know what the deficiencies are for. We don't know how
these phytocannabinoids being things like CBD, CBG, CBN, you know,
(24:00):
et cetera, et cetera. We don't know how they interact
or like when people are deficient in them, we don't know,
and so they can have very profound effects. The thing is,
it's just very bio individuals. Some people might need ten milligrams,
some people might need a hundred. So people it's better
combined with delta eight or combined with CBG or CBN.
(24:22):
You know, it just depends, and it's really something that
you'll have to explore because we don't have doctors, we
don't really have tests, and you just kind of got
to experiment with it. But that is a great point.
I love that because, yeah, it can have a massive
impact for some people like night and day impact on
their mood, on their pain, on their immune system. Absolutely,
(24:44):
So that's a that's a great one.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It's a great adaptogen And I love that you focus
on that area because I think, you know, this is
an up and coming area and maybe now dominant area
in like the biohacking and high performance space. But I
I think in the general population people don't realize what
adaptagen or adaptogenic really means. And it's probably like one
(25:07):
of the coolest properties in any substance that a substance
could have. Right, It's like you're talking about a molecules
or a group of molecules that from a plant that
increases our ability to be resilient and to bounce back
from stress and to fight off illness and to feel
better most of the time. Like, it's wide reaching implications
(25:29):
and usually over time, not usually immediate, but over time.
You know, in one to three months of taking some
of these these supplements or nutritional plants, et cetera, you know,
people start to see a real benefit, which is really great,
and you know, few to no side effects from adaptagens
taken over time, which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's a great point about resilience and the idea of
being harder to kill, about being anti fragile. You know,
I mentioned the idea of allostatic capacity an alistatic load,
but this is also the idea of positive adaptation, which
is known as hormesis. And hormesis is when you have
(26:11):
a U stress EU stress versus distress. So if you
think about like the kind of bell curve in the middle,
you have the Goldilocks zone, which is the right amount
of stress to force the maximum amount of adaptation. And
on one side kind of going up that bell curve,
(26:33):
you have the U stress, the EU stress, and on
the other side, as you're going down that curve, you
have distress. And look, there's things that depending on where
your stress bucket is. This is why this is really
important to understand this concept. Something that could be a
hormetic stress or a U stress normally can become a
(26:57):
distress in different environments. This or an excess exactly. So
like if I'm going through a divorce, if I just
got fired, if I just experienced a death of someone
close to me, or a pet or whatever, then things
that were you stresses right now are not like doing
(27:17):
you know, an extended fast or doing keto or you know,
cold plunging or hot sana or all these different things. Cool.
Those are normally great right now in this situation that
you're going through might not be the ideal. You know,
doing self care might be ideal. This is where you
have to like listen to your nervous system.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
It's really important, Yeah, agreed, And so back to you
on the next group of substances that we should think.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, and so if you're dealing with a lot of
additional stress, hopefully or not, hopefully you're safe, Like it's
really important. This is another extremely important point I have
to make is that when you leave the safe environment
of your journey, you have to make sure you're going
back to a safe environment. Otherwise you will not feel safe.
(28:10):
Otherwise you will not be able to make change if
you're going back to an abusive situation or something like.
That's really important, Yeah, to remember to think about. So,
but if you are under additional stress, some other compounds
like Elphine or I love this compound from it's almost
called like the herbal x anax. If you will it's
(28:31):
called honakiel from Magnolia Bark. There's also the metabolite called
dihydro honakiel data and you can check that out as well,
So those might be helpful as well. Again, I don't
like over leaning on these substances, but I like kind
of using the tools and plugging the gaps and really
(28:52):
thinking about that. And so this is where you know,
working with a facilitator ongoing can be helpful as you're
thinking about, like, hey, where am I at right now?
What could I use? I also like microdosing following the journey. Now,
I have this idea called echo dosing. I think I've
talked to you about it. But what I would do is,
(29:14):
let's say your journey was you had MDA sassafras to
kind of had the heart open, have like the you know,
nervous system come down a few notches. Then you give
them a ceremonial cacao and psilocybin. Let's say it's you know,
something gentle like golden teacher, like penis envy would be
(29:35):
like a little bit more intense, and then on the
on the the next day, maybe you're doing watchuma also
called san pedro to help you ground to help you process.
So one thing that I might do in my microdosing,
this is the echo dosing idea, is microdose that whole journey,
where the microdose MDA, microdos ceremonial cacal, mike dos psilocybin
(30:01):
in that exact strain more ideally from that exact facilitator
in that exact mushroom, and then watch uma micro doosed
and now your body harkens back. So just think about
how like when you have music, you know it could
be relaxing music, and then you know that helps relax
your body. But if it's that exact song when you
(30:23):
had your exact epiphany or serendipitous thought when you're in
the journey, it's a whole different level to your body.
This is the same idea where yes, like some of
these things can help, and maybe even microdosing helps, but
if it's the exact thing in the exact combination, it
could be much more profound, especially if combined with that
(30:46):
exact playlist or whatever. Now you can really keep your
brain in these neuroplastic states and kind of like tune
your body back to these moments in microdoses and the
other side of the echo dose would potentially be knowing
what you're going to take as far as supplements post
(31:08):
journey and giving those during the journey. So this is
the idea of like echodosing, so that it creates kind
of a full circle and you're giving those during the
journey in micro doses so the body becomes aware.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Can I ask you a question about that? Yeah, So
one of the supplements I was going to ask you
about that's very commonly talked about using being used after
a journey is five HGP, which is a repletion tool
supplement that helps to repleat some of our serotonin in
our brains that when we use a lot of it
(31:43):
for different with different psychedelic medicines. And I have read
that we are that you're not supposed to take five
HGP before or during a psychedelic experience because of the
risk of having too much serotonin like potentially atonin syndrome situation.
You know, is that one of the ones that we
should say away from during and UH is that something
(32:06):
that could be helpful after to replete serotonin.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
This is a it's a great point, a great one
to bring up. But you know, just like the idea,
like the poisons in the dose, the efficacies in the dose,
and when I talk about echo doosing of microdosing, I'm
talking about one tenth to one twentieth the dose. So
let's say if you're taking two hundred milligrams post journey
for serotonin repletion, you know, we're talking about taking ten
(32:32):
or twenty milligrams, and I don't think that's going to
have much of a physiologic effect. It's more of like
a tuning the body for knowing in this idea of
echo doosing, you know, like definitely with like homeopathy, like
this is kind of a concept that's well known, and
(32:52):
I think there's as we see microdosing have more effect.
It's kind of justifying the idea of homeopathy fee and
of the body being aware of you know, these compounds.
And so I do think it's it's something that you
would have to experiment with, and there's there's a lot
(33:13):
of interesting questions that can come up there. But along
the lines of serotonin repletion, this is the only time
I like short term use of an SSRI that's natural,
and this would be Conna and Kana has more benefits
beyond like some natural SSRI effects. And by the way,
the serotonin theory for depression is been blown out of
(33:37):
the water fifteen times, like it's a very flawed theory.
I'm not saying that it can't impact depression. It most
certainly can, but to say it's wholly responsible when we're
seeing depression typically be almost all ten eleven neurotransmitters be down.
You know, the last two meta analyses in twenty seventeen
(33:59):
and twenty two saw like a very complex relationship with
SSRIs and depression. And I do think the idea of
repletion makes a lot of sense, So maybe using these
things long term would not.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You're listening to the psychedelic report.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
So repletion I like a kana extra so something like
zembrine is branded. But there's other conas out there that
are stronger, So you know, this is something to experiment with.
To your point, I like five HTP as a substrate
to make more serotonin. Also saffron in particular, like one
(34:44):
that's standardized to saffron. Now saffron is great at modulating
serotonin D three. Going back to a lot of us
are depressed, a lot of us are not getting enough sunshine,
a lot of us are deficient vitamin D. Some somewhere
from like seventy eighty percent. If you're a particular person
that lives in northern climates, the chances of you being
(35:07):
deficient is even higher because you're not getting the same
degree of sunshine as those in more southern climates. And
then if you're a person of color you have more melanin,
the chance is also higher of having low vitamin D levels.
And so I think it's important you know, somewhere in
like the five to ten thousand IU range. I think
(35:30):
like the rd RDI or RDA DRIs like, it changes
a lot depending on what you want to call it.
The clinical level that we're supposed to get is around
deficiency for rickets, and that's four hundred I use, which
is insane. Like the levels that we need is probably
(35:51):
five thousand for most of us. And I would say
if you're a person of color, if you're more northern climates,
if you're you know, a night shift worker, probably need
to be using ten thousand. So that's really important for
serotonin as well.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Can I have one thing of the vitamin D note?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
The one thing that's important to note about vitamin D
that a lot of people don't talk about because I
see this all the time of my patients. Is that
vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Great, So that means unlike vitamin C or vitamin b's
where you can take a lot, you can take way
more than you need and you'll just pee it out.
The extra we absorb. Vitamin D and A and E
and K. They're all fat soluble vitamins. So that means
it's possible to overdose on those vitamins as well. And
(36:39):
so if you are going to take high dose as
vitamin D, you should probably get your vitamin every day. Especially,
you should get your vitamin D level checked if you haven't,
because the symptoms of having too low vitamin D are
actually almost the same as the symptoms of having too
high vitamin D, and so they can get confused.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
So that's a great point. And also it's important if
you want to map smize absorption, you do want to
have it, let's say, with a faty meal. To your point,
it is fat soluble, and if you're using a dry D,
like a powderized D, they've shown that like it has
really poor bioavailability. Also, D is it's ideal that you
(37:17):
get D three. That's the better form versus always D
three and D three in combination with K two in
the MK seven form. I know there's a lot of
letters going on, but that's the ideal way to get
your D three. That's a great point. I think with
five thousand almost all people be generally save once a day.
(37:39):
The ten thousand, it's a good point. I definitely think
like there's populations that are at greater risk, so that
would be ideal, especially like there's a relationship with metabolic dysfunction,
which eighty seven percent of Americans are metabolically dysfunctional with
D three, so as well as chromium and some other things.
(38:01):
That's a whole other discussion that we could get into
is like blood sugar and its relation to disease, and yeah,
time valuable discussion. Again, going back to optimization, if you're
metabolically dysfunctional, moving your body, I'll make a quick note
of this, moving your body, getting sunshine, making sure you're
(38:21):
drinking your water, getting proper sleep. These are absolutely important things.
Getting enough protein in boluses throughout the day, probably three
to four times a day. You want twenty five to
forty grams of protein to optimize muscle protein synthesis. These
are just some basics. Taking like a solid multi vitamin
(38:43):
that has the methylated B vitamins in it. This is
really important. So this would be things like methyl cobolamin
which is important to brain function. Five methyl tetrahydrofoliate. You
know about this that about forty percent of the population
has the end thhfr gene where they do not process
(39:03):
fullic acid. Well, there's multiple enzymatic steps to convert fullic acid. Two.
Five methyl tetrahydrofoli or methyl folid maybe said easier. So
that's really important that you can actually be anemic even
though you're taking plenty of foli because you're not converting
it well, So this is really important. There's actually a
(39:24):
toxicity associated with B six that some people can have
in terms of nervous function that only happens with pyridoxine,
the synthetic form of B six. It does not happen
with P five p the coanzomated or active form of B.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Six, which you get from you can pick.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
It, well, yeah, you get from yeah, exactly exactly. But
if you get multivitamin or quality B vitamin, maybe from
like a thorn or metagenics or designs for health or
pure encapsulations like some of the more clinical, high end brands.
You know, they'll typically have the coanzomated forms. So this
(40:06):
is huge to get that. It's really nervous system in
all kinds of way, and so I would look to
that also with that multi If you're doing that, all
the minerals get them in organic forms like either what's
called like crab cycle intermediates or the amino acid key leads.
(40:29):
So this would be things like magnesium glycinate or magnesium
three in eight or magnesium citrate. These are like optimal
organic forms that are absorbed well. Things like carbonate and
oxide are not absorbed well. Maxician is a laxative though, right, Yeah,
that's true, so be careful of that one.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, that's that's the milk. That's the milk of magnesia maxim.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yes, exactly exactly, that's true. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I wanted to ask you a couple more quick questions
because I know we're already short on time, and I
love our conversations. This has been so educational for me,
and so I know it's been incredibly educational for the
audience as well, and I think talking about we could
have an entire discussion just on the exact types and
formulations of different vitamins and minerals you should be getting.
(41:17):
So it's a really great point that you make that
you know, getting the methylated forms in the consmatic you know,
forms of some of these from these reliable producers is
really important because then you're actually getting the intended effect
and more likely to get the intended effect that we
were hoping for. I wanted to circle back because I
know so many people always want to know about five HGP.
(41:38):
It sounds like your thumbs up for five HGP afterwards,
that can be helpful.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I am, I am. I. Again, it's going to matter
how long you stay on it, especially if you're using
this in conjunction with an SSRI that you're already on prescribe,
or if you're using something like Zeenbrand or Kana, you know,
you're using multiple strategies to replete, then you have to
(42:04):
be aware of that. Also, melatonin is going to be
involved in that serotonin synthesis pathway, So if you're taking melatonin,
especially in high doses, like if you're up you know,
near ten milligrams or something like that, you have to
be aware of that too. So yes, I am a
fan of it unless it's counter indicated for you, you
(42:27):
know you've had some kind of complication with it, But yes,
I do like it.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
And one another question people could bring up a lot
is when you're trying to fall asleep after having an
intense psychonolic experience. Five htp magnesium are typically pretty good bets.
Anything else that you'd suggest.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Yeah, again, it goes to like calming the nervous system down.
Sometimes there's a lot of thought happening. The brain is racing,
the brain is neuroplastic, you know, everything's kind of turned
up and turned on. So this is where yes, I
think as you said, magnesium five hdp like calming herbs,
(43:07):
things like valerian camomeal could be ideal. Elthianine I like before, during,
and after Elthenine is great amino acid. It's really good
at calming the brain as well as like when it's
combined with stimulants like caffeine, like my parizanthine for example,
it's really good at putting you more in that alpha
(43:28):
brain wave state, like a balanced zen state if you will,
where you're focused, but also in flow. So I'm a
big fan of l thianine as well. And then if
you need more. It depends like why you're not sleeping.
Like some people, it can be anxiety. I hope it's not,
but if it is, then you know, some of those
(43:49):
things like that I mentioned the Hana kiel could be
helpful as well. But I do like melatonin. I do
think that under one millionaire, especially like when you have
these late night journeys in particular, maybe if there's like
a lot of light around or you know, blue light
that you're exposed to, et cetera, you know it's okay
(44:11):
to go a little bit higher one off. When I'm
traveling a lot, I use higher doses to get my
body adjust circadiean rhythm wise, so you know, just it's
something to experiment with ahead of your journeys. But I
do like it so quickly going into a fetel coaling.
Some journeys are fun and playful, and you know, you're
(44:33):
dancing and things are good. Aceetyle Colling may not be
a big factor when you're doing deep work, when you're processing,
when you're kind of working through a trauma, when you're
visiting you know, relatives and talking to God and you know,
making a decision around like making a career shift or
a marriage shift or whatever. Then aceetle colling is going
(44:56):
to be involved and you're going to be burning through it.
A lot of these new tropic stacks revolve around a
cetyl coling because you're doing deep work, so this is
where a bioavailable form of coaling is going to be helpful.
So something like CDP coaling or alpha GPC is going
to be one of my favorites as the coaling donor,
it's the most bioavailable form, and then stacking that with
(45:21):
and acetyl colin estus inhibitors. So this is the same
idea as SSRI. So something like hooper zine a combined
with the alpha GPC would be helpful. And then maybe
even a setyl donor so something like acetyl locarnatine could
be helpful as well. So that would be kind of
(45:41):
the stack there to replete acetyl coaling and then kind
of get you going back to you know, being able
to process and do you know, focused work again. And
then I'm trying to think if there's anything else paraxanthine,
I'll just say like if you're if you were up
all night, if you're low on energy, I do this
(46:03):
is an ingredient I brought to the world. It's a
metabolite of caffeine. About sixty percent of us are slow
metabolizers of caffeine. We do not process it well. We
have all the side effects and very little benefit, Like
we're not converting it to what's really the active which
is the paraxanthine. Caffeine itself is more toxic as well
(46:25):
as the theopylene that's a metabolite as well. You're cutting
all that out. You're cutting out this metabolic difference is
the bioindividuality and going straight to parixanthine, which is a
very clean experience, and it actually increases neuroplasts. This the
increases BDNF, It increases nitric oxide in the brain via
(46:46):
PDE nine. In ambition, it decreases beta amyloid plaque. It
increases serotonin and acetylcholine and dopamine, and it increases glutathione
and catalyase. So this is really a a powerful neuroprotective
cocktail as well as giving you some energy as well.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
The metabolid of caffeine pairsanthine with that gives you most
of the benefits of a cup of coffee, but without
the downside.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Of the caffeine, yes, and I've found it's vastly potentiated
with blood flow ingredients, so things like arginine, citralline, you
know that you find it like a lot of pre workout.
I've found that, yes, that's great for pumps and all
those things. But I've also found that when you combine
it with like parisanthine, those those ingredients, that blood flow
(47:39):
cerebrally is quite enhanced and it really has the synergistic
cut back.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I think that's fantastic, by the way. And the a
seal coline repleation is something that I didn't even think about,
So that's really interesting for people to consider as a
way to augment their post experiences. And you know, the
last question I had for you was more from a
nutritional angle, you know, because a lot of a lot
of people, especially people who use psychedelic medicines recreationally, will
(48:08):
end their psychedelic experiences with cannabis and indica. Cannabis often
increases hunger and appetite and the munchies, and people tend
to go for simple carb and you know, high sugar
type things, and I am frankly suspicious of sugar. Is
something that might actually, you know, decrease the benefits that
(48:31):
you're getting from psychedelic experiences and protein being more favorable
to consume. Not one hundred percent sure that's true, but
I feel like it is based on how neurons, what
neurons like information wise, to receive to to learn stuff better.
But what are your thoughts on that one hundred percent?
Speaker 1 (48:46):
You know, it's not a joke you might have heard
like that. You know, having table sugar looks the same
on a on a brain scan as cocaine. Like it
literally is highly dopaminergic, like where you're you know, the
spike goes up and down, and dopamine's a good thing
when it's extended, so like exercise and things that you enjoy,
but sugar is a roller coaster that's just not healthy
(49:09):
for the brain. You know. Having foods that have some
sugars but some fiber that slow it down, like fruits
in their whole horm not injuices, is ideal. But I
agree with you protein absolutely, But in particular, one of
the things that I've really been researching and kind of
putting out there, besides the echo dosing thing that I
(49:31):
think a lot of people don't talk about or maybe
understand is the idea that fasting does hold a purpose
beyond just consuming less. When we're elevated in keytones, we
actually see that it's neuroprotective. You're improving energy production to
the brain, and it's anti inflammatory to the brain. And
(49:55):
we've seen it improved outcomes with traumatic brain injury, for example.
So when there's areas of the brain that are injured
like TBI, which can be from mental stress as well
as physiologic stress, like an insult to the brain, like
a physical insult to the brain, you know, like being
struck with a bat, or being in a car accident,
(50:15):
or you know something depression, and some of those things
can actually look like that. And so when we are
you know, turning these things on and rewiring and sending
new blood flow to them through potentially being elevated in keytnes,
I think that's something that we can lean into, and
that's something I've talked about in my lectures, is that
(50:39):
you know, taking something like berberine or dihydro burberine having
exogenous key tones, having like C eight mcts also called
cuprillic acid, having an extended fast going in you know,
depending what it looks like coming out, you could do
a ketogenic diet potentially, and that's going to have a
(51:02):
fair amount of protein to your point, as well as
elevated fat. And that's something that lean into is kind
of helping your brain rewire. And I do believe that, yes,
like this has been done for thousands of years, the fast,
you know, going into psychedelic experiences. And yes, there is
the kind of more philosophical level of a fast of
(51:23):
consuming less of the things that you normally consume. And
you know, whether it you know, be terrible movies and
porn and you know whatever, or also foods and alcohol
and sex and you know whatever. Yes, but it can
also be just consuming nothing and then having elevated key
(51:44):
tones and then it's helping the brain rewire in a
way that just was impossible, and it's really augmenting the
effects of a.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Psychedelic that's really interesting. And I'm so glad you brought
that up. And you know, I think the fasting is
especially doing it intern can be really really helpful. I
know a lot of the indigenous traditions also used around
psychedelic medicines, also used fasting in before ceremonies and that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
And we upregulating autophagy as well. When you're fast, and
autopogy is like taking that like little vacuum cleaner to yourselves,
cleaning out yourselves, making them young. It's like an synolytic
you know kind of effect as well. And this is
literally renewing ourselves. And like doctor Matt Cook talks about
when he does you know, ketamine that you know, he's
(52:32):
giving nads, giving exisomes, he's you know, doing these things
because when your brain is renewing, your body can renew.
So this is an optimal time when your nervous system
is down and relaxed, you actually can make physiologic changes.
When your body's in fight or flight all the time,
(52:53):
you're not absorbing nutrients. Well, you're not like renewing your body. Well,
you're in fight or flight. Your nutrients are being used differently.
Your body thinks that you're being attacked. It's not worrying
about cleaning and detoxing. That's when you're in parasympathetic, that's
when you're relaxed. So this is like the most optimal
time to actually potentially do some of these you know,
(53:15):
if you're working with the right facilitator, I do think
that's the next frontiers when we're administering peptides and exosomes
and you know, things like this during the journey potentially
or immediately thereafter.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Well, I think you are one hundred percent spot on,
and I really am grateful for your perspective. I want
to be extra respectful for your time because we're a
little bit over and just wanted to thank you again
for taking time to join me. I think that this
was undoubtedly the most comprehensive review of what to take
(53:52):
and what to eat after a psychedelic experience that I've
ever seen, short of you know, the actual indigenous tribal
traditions themselves. This is like very extensive, and I think
it gives our listeners a really incredible framework for how
to make sure they're getting the most out of their
experiences and they understand, you know, how to use these
(54:13):
supplement based and natural plant based tools to augment our
learning and recovery and healing that we can get with
and without psychedelic experiences, but particularly with because it just
makes these experiences more safer and easier for us to
access and get good results out of. So thank you again.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, you got it, You got it and if anyone
has a question you can hit me up at Sean
Wells Sahawn on Instagram. I forget whether I gave you
my stack and the last one, but I can give
you a print out stack for this one. It'd be
great for your notes people want to follow up. There
already are other clinics like Ceremonia using it, so there
(54:56):
actually is quite a bit more it can go into,
you know, pretty extreme depth. I like to do that.
So anyway, it was great talking to you, doctor Dave,
and I really love our conversations.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Thanks for listening to The Psychedelic Report. Visit us at
the Psychedelic Report dot com. This show is recorded weekly
on Clubhouse with a live audience. The Psychedelic Report was
brought to you by Apollo Neuroscience and produced by Future
Medicine Media. While I am a doctor, I'm not your doctor,
(55:33):
So please don't take anything you hear on The Psychedelic
Report as personal medical advice, because we don't know you.
If you have questions about anything you hear on this show,
please consult with your doctor.
The Psychedelic Reports.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Psychedelic drugs have played their part in America's long strange
trip toward an understanding of mind.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
All during drugs The Psychedelic News, leading physicians, scientists, and
experts share their wisdom about psychedelic medicines and healing. Fifty
years ago, psychedelic drugs were at the center of America's counterculture.
The brightest minds in psychedelic medicine the Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We use the kedemy assisted psychotherapy model that happens to
have psychedelic effects that were not predicted when the drug
was first developed.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
From researchers to investors.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I think the biggest mistake we pat as the culture
is the war of drugs.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So physicians to shamans and non private pioneers psychedelic drugs.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Recent research suggests some of them could have legitimate uses.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
lines of this exciting movement, The Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
your host, doctor Dave Raven. I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MBMA assisted therapy.
(01:21):
Today we're switching gears to go back to a topic
that is very interesting to me and something that's not
talked about that often, which is how to supplement after
a psychedelic experience to ensure that your improvements, your transformation,
whatever you were trying to get out of that experience
(01:42):
as the best chance of sticking around. The real question
is how do we optimize our bodies and our brains
for learning new things. Today I'm joined by a special
guest who is an expert in this particular area around
optimizing the body for learning and change and adaptation, transformation
and growth with supplements and nutrients. That's Sean Wells. He
(02:08):
is the world leading nutritional biochemist and expert on health optimization.
Sean has formulated over seven hundred supplements, food beverages and
cosmeceuticals and patented twenty novel ingredients and is now known
as the Ingredientologist, the Scientist of Ingredients. Formerly a chief
(02:28):
clinical dietitian with over a decade of experience, Sean has
counseled thousands of people on natural health solutions such as keto,
paleo fasting, and supplements. The reason why we took on
this topic today of how to make your psychedelic experiences
and the benefits that come from them last longer and
(02:49):
be more enjoyable, is because Sean and I have had
many of my most fun conversations on this very topic
and the topic that we covered on May twenty first,
in the first episode with Sean Wells on optimizing psychedelic
experiences and what nutrients, diet and supplements you can take
(03:09):
in advance to make sure that you have the best
possible psychedelic experiences and that your body is optimized for
those experiences. Because so many of you enjoyed that show
and asked for the information about what to take after,
I have brought Sean back to give us the lowdown
on what to take following psychedelic experiences and what not
(03:32):
to take to make sure that you have the most
long lasting benefits possible. Sean, thank you so much for
joining us today. It's such a pleasure to have you
back on the show.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Oh man, it's so good to be here. You know,
I love you. I love to talk about psychedelics and
the journey and the highs and lows of my hero's
journey and making impact. Like for me, this is I
just and I know you can appreciate this, but one
I get frustrated that psychedelics get you know, so pigeonholed,
(04:07):
and we're still at a point where it seems like
it's fringy, it seems like it's dangerous, it seems like
it's scary, and not to downplay that they're not highly
impactful and anything that's impactful. I've told people this before,
and supplement says, you know, a big supplement guy, and
it's like, look, anything that's efficacious has a risk. Like
(04:31):
the only things that don't have risks are things that
don't work, period, So you know that that's something that's important.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
There are also things that don't work that have risks.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
That's a good point too, that's a really good point.
And I do have some concerns about maybe things getting
you know, legalized so quick and then people mixing them
with alcohol and celebrities you know, talking about like there's
the you know, this strain from Justin Bieber and this
strain from Kim Kardashian. You know, whatever it is, I
do have concerns about that. I'm not saying that those
(05:06):
celebrities are bad people. Is just giving random examples, but
you know, beyond that, Like I know, for me, these
compounds warp speed like put me in places that I
could have never ever, I believe truly got to in
eighty years. Like you know, the most important thing that
(05:29):
I see, and I'm kind of going on a tangent here,
but the most important thing that I've see as I've
continued to do this work, as I've looked at the science,
as I'm literally doing this in myself, and I've been
in the journey space with probably more than a thousand
people to this point, doing close to one hundred journeys.
Is disregulated nervous system is where the whole thing starts.
(05:52):
And of course I love you know, your device, the
Apollo and anything that works on that kind of paradigm,
you know, So that's that's where this whole thing starts.
And my full life I had a disregulated nervous system.
I was hyper vigilant, I was ultra sympathetic. I never yawned,
(06:16):
I didn't know how to fall asleep. I always felt
like I was in attack mode, mostly attacking myself. I
was definitely like not just the inner critic, I mean
it was it was a whole different level. Yeah, where
I was constantly criticizing myself, constantly be rating myself, and
(06:36):
my nervous system never felt at he's never felt safe.
And it's no wonder that I could never be successful
at intimacy or relationships because I was never safe with myself.
You know, as a man, you're supposed to you know,
create the container or like protect and provide. I couldn't
(06:58):
do that for myself.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So you know I look at like, yes, you know,
you have to do the work, but I look at
what psychedelics as the facilitator, not as the savior. And
this is true of you know, when you choose facilitators
to work with, don't trust anyone that's the guru, that's
the savior, that's the healer, that's the you know, on
(07:23):
and on and on, even doctors like yourself, Like it
has to be a facilitator, someone that facilitates your own empowerment,
your own growth, your own development, your own autonomy, your
own sovereignty. And for me, you know, that was you know,
I had two great facilitators, uh Ton Cole Whitty out
(07:44):
of Austin, and then I had, you know, some great
substances that also facilitated my development, and I just if
I didn't have those, I believe if I didn't have
the facilitators or the souther instances, I believe I would
be dead right now. And this is a conversation I
(08:04):
have with with audiences when I do my talks, is like, look,
there's you know, no matter where you stand, you know,
there's people right now that have fought for this country.
There's people right now that are you know, soldiers e mts,
people that are abuse victims that feel alone, that don't
(08:25):
have choices, that may take their own lives in the
next days or weeks or months to come. And so
no matter where you stand on these things, like I
and I know people listening right now are probably standing
with me, but you know, I implore you anyone listening, to
take a stand because it goes well beyond just you know,
(08:49):
fun substances or something that you can use on occasion,
and there's literally people dying that this may be the
only way that they can have a shift and learn
to feel safe in their body and therefore have people
around them that love them feel safe. So it's just
(09:10):
a little bit of a.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Tangent there, but no, I appreciate it, you know, and
that's very well said, and you know, grateful for your perspective,
because the fate of a lot of this work in
the psychedelic space is in question right now, and the
science and the results from the clinical trials have shown
that these medicines, when administered properly, under the proper guidance,
(09:34):
are nothing short of saving lives. Right We're seeing that
people's lives are being saved by the in some cases
anti suicidal properties and potent antidepressant properties of psychedelic medicines
in the way that because of the way that they
help us remake meaning and feel safe enough to remake
(09:56):
meaning around past traumatic events. And we need treatments like
this to be available. And I think you know, on
that note, we really appreciate you for taking the time,
in particular because you have a unique background in you know,
nutritional substances and supplements and the way that they interact
(10:18):
with the body. And one thing that has not been
a conversation in the clinical trials and science of psychedelics
world very much in at least not in the research
study side of it is what can we do that's
known and safe to augment the quality of our psychedelic experiences,
(10:40):
which is what we talked about together on our last
time we had you on the Psychedelic Report and also
today to talk about, you know, what we can do
nutritionally with supplements, with different tools in your domain of
expertise to improve the long lasting of effects of psychedelic experiences.
(11:02):
Because we talk a lot about the latest research about
how these substances, a lot of psychedelic medicines, ketamine, psilocybin,
likely NBMA, LSD, they all enhance what we call neuroplasticity,
and neuroplasticity is our ability to learn new things. So
we want to make sure we're learning the right new
things and those things stick right, And that is in
(11:23):
essence sort of like the whole fundamental goal of how
psychedelic medicines with the appropriate safe treatment are facilitating this
rapid learning of new patterns and restoring of new patterns
that are able to facilitate our own healing, our healing
that we did the work ourselves right, which is so
rewarding and so if it works for you, maybe we
(11:46):
can get right to it. And I would love to
hear about you know, maybe start by describing what is
the post psychedelic state like for people often that we're
ting to do something about.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, we're cracking open the operating system. To your point, right,
there's several things that are happening. You know this, but
maybe the people listening know some of this, but not
all of this. But like some of the key things
that are happening. Yes, neuroplasticity, so that means BDNF brain
or of neurotrophic factor means NNGF. Nerve growth factor means
(12:20):
m TOR because there's actually not just muscle protein synthesis
for you bodybuilders out there, but protein synthesis in the brain.
We're finding m TOUR is very important for that growth
and protection, neuroprotection and neuroplasticity. Neuroprotection neuroplasticity is the same
mechanisms because we're protecting existing neurons and creating new neurons
(12:44):
brain cells. And so to your point, neuroplasticity is the
ability to learn new things, which is fluid intelligence. As
we get older, that tends to decline. We're more crystallized intelligence,
which is kind of like as we get older, we
get better and better at finding the shortcuts, but we're
(13:04):
not as good at learning the new things. So this
is a way to keep your brain young as well
as take on new ideas. And of course there's all
the ways that you should be doing, like going to
new restaurants, new travels, new languages, new music, new friends,
new ideas, challenging your ideas. That's one thing I love
(13:26):
about getting into these psychedelic spaces. I have friends that
are extreme maga, conspiracy theory, left wing like whatever, like.
And you know what, there's a lot of respect and
love in these spaces no matter what ideal you're coming from.
And that's because we feel safe, so safe that we
(13:47):
can bring up ideas that are challenging.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Imagine that, like the fundamental assumptions we make about life
and other people and ourselves.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Exactly, we can have our own opinions and still resips others.
So one, we see neuroplasticity sky high. Two we see
neurotransmitters come back online, not just serotonin, all neurotransmitters. When
we're depressed, all neurotransmitters are down, not just serotonin. Across
(14:17):
the board, dopamine, acetylcholine, serotonin, endorphins, epinephrinor it's all down
because and same with neuroplasticity, all down, and same with
default mode network it's all the way up. It needs
your constructs there, and we want to feel less, and
the constructs are keeping us safe, and feeling less is
(14:41):
keeping us.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Safe because feelings are uncomfortable, exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And it can be traumatizing and your body doesn't know
whether this is new trauma or old trauma when you
keep reliving in right, but when we're in a safe environment,
and this is so important to your point because other
other wise, if neuroplasticity is up, neurotransmitters are up, default
mode networks turned down, and you're traumatized, that's a bad combination.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
This is why it's important, really, really really important to
be safe. And safe doesn't just mean safe to someone else.
Safe is what you deem safe. So even if this
facilitator is an amazing dude, he's been doing it for
twenty years, he's the best guy, but you're a woman
and you've been through sexual trauma and you just don't
(15:33):
feel safe around men.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yet, he's not the right guy. For you. Maybe the
right guy for all your friends, not for you. So
this is like really important that we're aware of what's
happening and how we can access the operating system and
rewrite the code. And so this is like the idea
(15:56):
that you've heard of with the you know, putting the
powder down on the slow over the ski tracks so
that you can find a new way to ski because
your brain will automatically want to keep going where they're
existing ski tracks are, so you can take a whole
new path. And this is where you can make massive
life changes that just really aren't possible even with the
(16:19):
best psychotherapy. And to your point, studies have shown yes,
psychotherapy can be great, but it's psychotherapy combined with neuroplasticity
and default mode network being down and empathy slash neurotransmitters
being turned up. And so my thought is how do
(16:40):
I keep those going in the weeks to come. So
it's important that you continue to have someone holding you
accountable that's hopefully that same facilitator or people that work
with you during that experience that are holding you accountable.
And then in those weeks to come, I want to
extend neuroplasticity. I want to bounce back with my neurotransmitters
(17:05):
because they get depleted. I want to replete them, not indefinitely,
but just for a period of time.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Until your body naturally takes over.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Again exactly exactly. And look, and you can make the
argument that there sometimes may be a reason, after we
have these massively expansive experiences neurotransmitters just flooding, that there
should be a time that things contract that we do
take time to kind of sit with it, to heal,
(17:38):
to let our nervous system relax. And this is what
happens in life, like when you go to that big
concert or you have like your wedding or you know whatever.
Like you can't do that indefinitely, but I do think
there is benefit to repeating some of these neurotransmitters. And
so what I like to do post journey is look
(18:01):
at hydration status is very important. It sounds so straightforward,
but I will tell you about eighty percent of the
population is dehydrated. Assume we know nothing, It has to
be said you cannot function well when you're dehydrated. You
will not sleep well, you will not think well, you
will not operate well. Your heart won't beat well. You
(18:22):
need the right electrolytes, and you need to be hydrated. Period.
It's like almost considered cliche or stupid, but it's not.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report. Can I just ask
you a quick question about that? Yeah, because you're one
hundred percent right that a lot of people, probably over
half of the Americans are dehydrated over half of the time,
and we just forget to drink water, and we also
forget to consume electrolytes which facilitate the absorption of water
(18:54):
into the cells.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
So I think a lot of people forget. And what
I'm starting to see become more common is and when
people drink too when people drink too much water because
I think they just need water, then they actually deplete
their cells of electrolytes, right, and they end up peeing
a lot of it out. It's still better than not
drinking water. But the best thing to do is to
drink water with a little bit of electrolyte in it,
(19:18):
like sodium, potassium, magnesium, right, And then that at least
that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that that
is actually the best way to get the most benefit
out of water. And you can feel it almost immediately
if you're dehydrated, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Sodium, you know, as like salt phobic, as we tend
to be about eighty percent of what we lose when
we're dehydrated through sweat or urine is sodium. Sodium is
absolutely critical to performance. I know as a ketogenic diet
or at least for a fair amount of my life.
That like, every time I would have sodium, whether I
(19:52):
was on keto or fasting, it would take away my appetite,
it would turn my brain back on, like I could
feel like literally lights come on, like it's cat or something.
And so I think a lot of us are saltphobic,
and so I would say, like, if nothing else, if
you can't get other electrolytes, throw a little salt in
your water and that's helpful. Magnesium is huge in terms
(20:16):
of muscle contraction, brain function, vowel regularity. I mean we're
hearing about that constantly too, Like the three that you
hear about that majority of Americans are deficient and essentially
they are dehydrated Vitamin D as well as magnesium. So
if you're suboptimal, that's not a good place to be.
(20:36):
So definitely, let's talk about getting to the foundation of
optimizing and then beyond that. I like the adaptogens before, during, well,
before and after. The reason I love the adaptogens is
they are bimodal, meaning that they work on both sides
of the equation. So you know, something like caffeine comes
(20:58):
at a cost, right, it gives you energy, but it
comes at a cost you might not sleep as well
things like that. With adaptagens, you sleep better and you
feel more focused and energized. Why because it's actually optimizing
you beyond what your potential is. It's actually increasing your
allostatic capacity or your stress bucket, right, And so adaptogens,
(21:21):
I feel like, are really a foundation at helping your
nervous system have a greater capacity for mental and physical stress.
Your body doesn't know the difference, and you're going through
a lot of mental stress in these situations, and so
you'll you'll be able to deal with more. And I
think that's so Like some of my favorites are like
(21:44):
Ashvia Ganda Rodeola Maka Lion's main gin saying probably Ashmaganda
Rodeol are my two favorites. But like I think, you know,
bringing those into the fold is going to be helpful
especially if you feel like it's been stressful, you feel
like leading up to it, you know, you know this
(22:05):
going into the the journey, I've seen people like have
you know, full on breakdowns because it's coming up from
unconscious to subconscious to conscious mind. As they say, the
journey starts when you commit to it, right, and so
there's a stress associated with that. People are going to
(22:26):
see me, how am I going to make this change? Like,
you know, I know I should get divorced, but it's
like it's just too much.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It's a lot.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Maybe maybe it'll happen for me somehow, like I can't
do this myself. And you know, there's a lot, there's
a lot going into these experiences. So you know, helping
your nervous system again get regulated when it's disregulated is important.
And I think you know, being on these adaptogens can
be helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Can I ask you about a couple of the adaptagens?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, CBD, awesome. So this is a really really really
great point, doctor Dave. Is that the endocannabinoid system the ecs, Like,
think about this for a second. This is almost like
the psychedelics thing. This is a system similar to like
musculo skeletal cardiovascular, the endocannabinoid system controls pain, the immune
(23:22):
system like recovery, wellness and kind of well being and mood.
How many doctors that specialize in the ECS.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
They don't even teach it in men spin they don't
teach it.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
They don't teach it. I mean, I think the four
to eight hours that yeah on nutrition is already not enough.
But there's a zero on the ECS. Yeah, And this
is crazy, like we don't test for it. We don't
know what the deficiencies are for. We don't know how
these phytocannabinoids being things like CBD, CBG, CBN, you know,
(24:00):
et cetera, et cetera. We don't know how they interact
or like when people are deficient in them, we don't know,
and so they can have very profound effects. The thing is,
it's just very bio individuals. Some people might need ten milligrams,
some people might need a hundred. So people it's better
combined with delta eight or combined with CBG or CBN.
(24:22):
You know, it just depends, and it's really something that
you'll have to explore because we don't have doctors, we
don't really have tests, and you just kind of got
to experiment with it. But that is a great point.
I love that because, yeah, it can have a massive
impact for some people like night and day impact on
their mood, on their pain, on their immune system. Absolutely,
(24:44):
So that's a that's a great one.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It's a great adaptogen And I love that you focus
on that area because I think, you know, this is
an up and coming area and maybe now dominant area
in like the biohacking and high performance space. But I
I think in the general population people don't realize what
adaptagen or adaptogenic really means. And it's probably like one
(25:07):
of the coolest properties in any substance that a substance
could have. Right, It's like you're talking about a molecules
or a group of molecules that from a plant that
increases our ability to be resilient and to bounce back
from stress and to fight off illness and to feel
better most of the time. Like, it's wide reaching implications
(25:29):
and usually over time, not usually immediate, but over time.
You know, in one to three months of taking some
of these these supplements or nutritional plants, et cetera, you know,
people start to see a real benefit, which is really great,
and you know, few to no side effects from adaptagens
taken over time, which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's a great point about resilience and the idea of
being harder to kill, about being anti fragile. You know,
I mentioned the idea of allostatic capacity an alistatic load,
but this is also the idea of positive adaptation, which
is known as hormesis. And hormesis is when you have
(26:11):
a U stress EU stress versus distress. So if you
think about like the kind of bell curve in the middle,
you have the Goldilocks zone, which is the right amount
of stress to force the maximum amount of adaptation. And
on one side kind of going up that bell curve,
(26:33):
you have the U stress, the EU stress, and on
the other side, as you're going down that curve, you
have distress. And look, there's things that depending on where
your stress bucket is. This is why this is really
important to understand this concept. Something that could be a
hormetic stress or a U stress normally can become a
(26:57):
distress in different environments. This or an excess exactly. So
like if I'm going through a divorce, if I just
got fired, if I just experienced a death of someone
close to me, or a pet or whatever, then things
that were you stresses right now are not like doing
(27:17):
you know, an extended fast or doing keto or you know,
cold plunging or hot sana or all these different things. Cool.
Those are normally great right now in this situation that
you're going through might not be the ideal. You know,
doing self care might be ideal. This is where you
have to like listen to your nervous system.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
It's really important, Yeah, agreed, And so back to you
on the next group of substances that we should think.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, and so if you're dealing with a lot of
additional stress, hopefully or not, hopefully you're safe, Like it's
really important. This is another extremely important point I have
to make is that when you leave the safe environment
of your journey, you have to make sure you're going
back to a safe environment. Otherwise you will not feel safe.
(28:10):
Otherwise you will not be able to make change if
you're going back to an abusive situation or something like.
That's really important, Yeah, to remember to think about. So,
but if you are under additional stress, some other compounds
like Elphine or I love this compound from it's almost
called like the herbal x anax. If you will it's
(28:31):
called honakiel from Magnolia Bark. There's also the metabolite called
dihydro honakiel data and you can check that out as well,
So those might be helpful as well. Again, I don't
like over leaning on these substances, but I like kind
of using the tools and plugging the gaps and really
(28:52):
thinking about that. And so this is where you know,
working with a facilitator ongoing can be helpful as you're
thinking about, like, hey, where am I at right now?
What could I use? I also like microdosing following the journey. Now,
I have this idea called echo dosing. I think I've
talked to you about it. But what I would do is,
(29:14):
let's say your journey was you had MDA sassafras to
kind of had the heart open, have like the you know,
nervous system come down a few notches. Then you give
them a ceremonial cacao and psilocybin. Let's say it's you know,
something gentle like golden teacher, like penis envy would be
(29:35):
like a little bit more intense, and then on the
on the the next day, maybe you're doing watchuma also
called san pedro to help you ground to help you process.
So one thing that I might do in my microdosing,
this is the echo dosing idea, is microdose that whole journey,
where the microdose MDA, microdos ceremonial cacal, mike dos psilocybin
(30:01):
in that exact strain more ideally from that exact facilitator
in that exact mushroom, and then watch uma micro doosed
and now your body harkens back. So just think about
how like when you have music, you know it could
be relaxing music, and then you know that helps relax
your body. But if it's that exact song when you
(30:23):
had your exact epiphany or serendipitous thought when you're in
the journey, it's a whole different level to your body.
This is the same idea where yes, like some of
these things can help, and maybe even microdosing helps, but
if it's the exact thing in the exact combination, it
could be much more profound, especially if combined with that
(30:46):
exact playlist or whatever. Now you can really keep your
brain in these neuroplastic states and kind of like tune
your body back to these moments in microdoses and the
other side of the echo dose would potentially be knowing
what you're going to take as far as supplements post
(31:08):
journey and giving those during the journey. So this is
the idea of like echodosing, so that it creates kind
of a full circle and you're giving those during the
journey in micro doses so the body becomes aware.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Can I ask you a question about that? Yeah, So
one of the supplements I was going to ask you
about that's very commonly talked about using being used after
a journey is five HGP, which is a repletion tool
supplement that helps to repleat some of our serotonin in
our brains that when we use a lot of it
(31:43):
for different with different psychedelic medicines. And I have read
that we are that you're not supposed to take five
HGP before or during a psychedelic experience because of the
risk of having too much serotonin like potentially atonin syndrome situation.
You know, is that one of the ones that we
should say away from during and UH is that something
(32:06):
that could be helpful after to replete serotonin.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
This is a it's a great point, a great one
to bring up. But you know, just like the idea,
like the poisons in the dose, the efficacies in the dose,
and when I talk about echo doosing of microdosing, I'm
talking about one tenth to one twentieth the dose. So
let's say if you're taking two hundred milligrams post journey
for serotonin repletion, you know, we're talking about taking ten
(32:32):
or twenty milligrams, and I don't think that's going to
have much of a physiologic effect. It's more of like
a tuning the body for knowing in this idea of
echo doosing, you know, like definitely with like homeopathy, like
this is kind of a concept that's well known, and
(32:52):
I think there's as we see microdosing have more effect.
It's kind of justifying the idea of homeopathy fee and
of the body being aware of you know, these compounds.
And so I do think it's it's something that you
would have to experiment with, and there's there's a lot
(33:13):
of interesting questions that can come up there. But along
the lines of serotonin repletion, this is the only time
I like short term use of an SSRI that's natural,
and this would be Conna and Kana has more benefits
beyond like some natural SSRI effects. And by the way,
the serotonin theory for depression is been blown out of
(33:37):
the water fifteen times, like it's a very flawed theory.
I'm not saying that it can't impact depression. It most
certainly can, but to say it's wholly responsible when we're
seeing depression typically be almost all ten eleven neurotransmitters be down.
You know, the last two meta analyses in twenty seventeen
(33:59):
and twenty two saw like a very complex relationship with
SSRIs and depression. And I do think the idea of
repletion makes a lot of sense, So maybe using these
things long term would not.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You're listening to the psychedelic report.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
So repletion I like a kana extra so something like
zembrine is branded. But there's other conas out there that
are stronger, So you know, this is something to experiment with.
To your point, I like five HTP as a substrate
to make more serotonin. Also saffron in particular, like one
(34:44):
that's standardized to saffron. Now saffron is great at modulating
serotonin D three. Going back to a lot of us
are depressed, a lot of us are not getting enough sunshine,
a lot of us are deficient vitamin D. Some somewhere
from like seventy eighty percent. If you're a particular person
that lives in northern climates, the chances of you being
(35:07):
deficient is even higher because you're not getting the same
degree of sunshine as those in more southern climates. And
then if you're a person of color you have more melanin,
the chance is also higher of having low vitamin D levels.
And so I think it's important you know, somewhere in
like the five to ten thousand IU range. I think
(35:30):
like the rd RDI or RDA DRIs like, it changes
a lot depending on what you want to call it.
The clinical level that we're supposed to get is around
deficiency for rickets, and that's four hundred I use, which
is insane. Like the levels that we need is probably
(35:51):
five thousand for most of us. And I would say
if you're a person of color, if you're more northern climates,
if you're you know, a night shift worker, probably need
to be using ten thousand. So that's really important for
serotonin as well.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Can I have one thing of the vitamin D note?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
The one thing that's important to note about vitamin D
that a lot of people don't talk about because I
see this all the time of my patients. Is that
vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Great, So that means unlike vitamin C or vitamin b's
where you can take a lot, you can take way
more than you need and you'll just pee it out.
The extra we absorb. Vitamin D and A and E
and K. They're all fat soluble vitamins. So that means
it's possible to overdose on those vitamins as well. And
(36:39):
so if you are going to take high dose as
vitamin D, you should probably get your vitamin every day. Especially,
you should get your vitamin D level checked if you haven't,
because the symptoms of having too low vitamin D are
actually almost the same as the symptoms of having too
high vitamin D, and so they can get confused.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
So that's a great point. And also it's important if
you want to map smize absorption, you do want to
have it, let's say, with a faty meal. To your point,
it is fat soluble, and if you're using a dry D,
like a powderized D, they've shown that like it has
really poor bioavailability. Also, D is it's ideal that you
(37:17):
get D three. That's the better form versus always D
three and D three in combination with K two in
the MK seven form. I know there's a lot of
letters going on, but that's the ideal way to get
your D three. That's a great point. I think with
five thousand almost all people be generally save once a day.
(37:39):
The ten thousand, it's a good point. I definitely think
like there's populations that are at greater risk, so that
would be ideal, especially like there's a relationship with metabolic dysfunction,
which eighty seven percent of Americans are metabolically dysfunctional with
D three, so as well as chromium and some other things.
(38:01):
That's a whole other discussion that we could get into
is like blood sugar and its relation to disease, and yeah,
time valuable discussion. Again, going back to optimization, if you're
metabolically dysfunctional, moving your body, I'll make a quick note
of this, moving your body, getting sunshine, making sure you're
(38:21):
drinking your water, getting proper sleep. These are absolutely important things.
Getting enough protein in boluses throughout the day, probably three
to four times a day. You want twenty five to
forty grams of protein to optimize muscle protein synthesis. These
are just some basics. Taking like a solid multi vitamin
(38:43):
that has the methylated B vitamins in it. This is
really important. So this would be things like methyl cobolamin
which is important to brain function. Five methyl tetrahydrofoliate. You
know about this that about forty percent of the population
has the end thhfr gene where they do not process
(39:03):
fullic acid. Well, there's multiple enzymatic steps to convert fullic acid. Two.
Five methyl tetrahydrofoli or methyl folid maybe said easier. So
that's really important that you can actually be anemic even
though you're taking plenty of foli because you're not converting
it well, So this is really important. There's actually a
(39:24):
toxicity associated with B six that some people can have
in terms of nervous function that only happens with pyridoxine,
the synthetic form of B six. It does not happen
with P five p the coanzomated or active form of B.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Six, which you get from you can pick.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
It, well, yeah, you get from yeah, exactly exactly. But
if you get multivitamin or quality B vitamin, maybe from
like a thorn or metagenics or designs for health or
pure encapsulations like some of the more clinical, high end brands.
You know, they'll typically have the coanzomated forms. So this
(40:06):
is huge to get that. It's really nervous system in
all kinds of way, and so I would look to
that also with that multi If you're doing that, all
the minerals get them in organic forms like either what's
called like crab cycle intermediates or the amino acid key leads.
(40:29):
So this would be things like magnesium glycinate or magnesium
three in eight or magnesium citrate. These are like optimal
organic forms that are absorbed well. Things like carbonate and
oxide are not absorbed well. Maxician is a laxative though, right, Yeah,
that's true, so be careful of that one.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, that's that's the milk. That's the milk of magnesia maxim.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yes, exactly exactly, that's true. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I wanted to ask you a couple more quick questions
because I know we're already short on time, and I
love our conversations. This has been so educational for me,
and so I know it's been incredibly educational for the
audience as well, and I think talking about we could
have an entire discussion just on the exact types and
formulations of different vitamins and minerals you should be getting.
(41:17):
So it's a really great point that you make that
you know, getting the methylated forms in the consmatic you know,
forms of some of these from these reliable producers is
really important because then you're actually getting the intended effect
and more likely to get the intended effect that we
were hoping for. I wanted to circle back because I
know so many people always want to know about five HGP.
(41:38):
It sounds like your thumbs up for five HGP afterwards,
that can be helpful.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I am, I am. I. Again, it's going to matter
how long you stay on it, especially if you're using
this in conjunction with an SSRI that you're already on prescribe,
or if you're using something like Zeenbrand or Kana, you know,
you're using multiple strategies to replete, then you have to
(42:04):
be aware of that. Also, melatonin is going to be
involved in that serotonin synthesis pathway, So if you're taking melatonin,
especially in high doses, like if you're up you know,
near ten milligrams or something like that, you have to
be aware of that too. So yes, I am a
fan of it unless it's counter indicated for you, you
(42:27):
know you've had some kind of complication with it, But yes,
I do like it.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
And one another question people could bring up a lot
is when you're trying to fall asleep after having an
intense psychonolic experience. Five htp magnesium are typically pretty good bets.
Anything else that you'd suggest.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Yeah, again, it goes to like calming the nervous system down.
Sometimes there's a lot of thought happening. The brain is racing,
the brain is neuroplastic, you know, everything's kind of turned
up and turned on. So this is where yes, I
think as you said, magnesium five hdp like calming herbs,
(43:07):
things like valerian camomeal could be ideal. Elthianine I like before, during,
and after Elthenine is great amino acid. It's really good
at calming the brain as well as like when it's
combined with stimulants like caffeine, like my parizanthine for example,
it's really good at putting you more in that alpha
(43:28):
brain wave state, like a balanced zen state if you will,
where you're focused, but also in flow. So I'm a
big fan of l thianine as well. And then if
you need more. It depends like why you're not sleeping.
Like some people, it can be anxiety. I hope it's not,
but if it is, then you know, some of those
(43:49):
things like that I mentioned the Hana kiel could be
helpful as well. But I do like melatonin. I do
think that under one millionaire, especially like when you have
these late night journeys in particular, maybe if there's like
a lot of light around or you know, blue light
that you're exposed to, et cetera, you know it's okay
(44:11):
to go a little bit higher one off. When I'm
traveling a lot, I use higher doses to get my
body adjust circadiean rhythm wise, so you know, just it's
something to experiment with ahead of your journeys. But I
do like it so quickly going into a fetel coaling.
Some journeys are fun and playful, and you know, you're
(44:33):
dancing and things are good. Aceetyle Colling may not be
a big factor when you're doing deep work, when you're processing,
when you're kind of working through a trauma, when you're
visiting you know, relatives and talking to God and you know,
making a decision around like making a career shift or
a marriage shift or whatever. Then aceetle colling is going
(44:56):
to be involved and you're going to be burning through it.
A lot of these new tropic stacks revolve around a
cetyl coling because you're doing deep work, so this is
where a bioavailable form of coaling is going to be helpful.
So something like CDP coaling or alpha GPC is going
to be one of my favorites as the coaling donor,
it's the most bioavailable form, and then stacking that with
(45:21):
and acetyl colin estus inhibitors. So this is the same
idea as SSRI. So something like hooper zine a combined
with the alpha GPC would be helpful. And then maybe
even a setyl donor so something like acetyl locarnatine could
be helpful as well. So that would be kind of
(45:41):
the stack there to replete acetyl coaling and then kind
of get you going back to you know, being able
to process and do you know, focused work again. And
then I'm trying to think if there's anything else paraxanthine,
I'll just say like if you're if you were up
all night, if you're low on energy, I do this
(46:03):
is an ingredient I brought to the world. It's a
metabolite of caffeine. About sixty percent of us are slow
metabolizers of caffeine. We do not process it well. We
have all the side effects and very little benefit, Like
we're not converting it to what's really the active which
is the paraxanthine. Caffeine itself is more toxic as well
(46:25):
as the theopylene that's a metabolite as well. You're cutting
all that out. You're cutting out this metabolic difference is
the bioindividuality and going straight to parixanthine, which is a
very clean experience, and it actually increases neuroplasts. This the
increases BDNF, It increases nitric oxide in the brain via
(46:46):
PDE nine. In ambition, it decreases beta amyloid plaque. It
increases serotonin and acetylcholine and dopamine, and it increases glutathione
and catalyase. So this is really a a powerful neuroprotective
cocktail as well as giving you some energy as well.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
The metabolid of caffeine pairsanthine with that gives you most
of the benefits of a cup of coffee, but without
the downside.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Of the caffeine, yes, and I've found it's vastly potentiated
with blood flow ingredients, so things like arginine, citralline, you
know that you find it like a lot of pre workout.
I've found that, yes, that's great for pumps and all
those things. But I've also found that when you combine
it with like parisanthine, those those ingredients, that blood flow
(47:39):
cerebrally is quite enhanced and it really has the synergistic
cut back.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I think that's fantastic, by the way. And the a
seal coline repleation is something that I didn't even think about,
So that's really interesting for people to consider as a
way to augment their post experiences. And you know, the
last question I had for you was more from a
nutritional angle, you know, because a lot of a lot
of people, especially people who use psychedelic medicines recreationally, will
(48:08):
end their psychedelic experiences with cannabis and indica. Cannabis often
increases hunger and appetite and the munchies, and people tend
to go for simple carb and you know, high sugar
type things, and I am frankly suspicious of sugar. Is
something that might actually, you know, decrease the benefits that
(48:31):
you're getting from psychedelic experiences and protein being more favorable
to consume. Not one hundred percent sure that's true, but
I feel like it is based on how neurons, what
neurons like information wise, to receive to to learn stuff better.
But what are your thoughts on that one hundred percent?
Speaker 1 (48:46):
You know, it's not a joke you might have heard
like that. You know, having table sugar looks the same
on a on a brain scan as cocaine. Like it
literally is highly dopaminergic, like where you're you know, the
spike goes up and down, and dopamine's a good thing
when it's extended, so like exercise and things that you enjoy,
but sugar is a roller coaster that's just not healthy
(49:09):
for the brain. You know. Having foods that have some
sugars but some fiber that slow it down, like fruits
in their whole horm not injuices, is ideal. But I
agree with you protein absolutely, But in particular, one of
the things that I've really been researching and kind of
putting out there, besides the echo dosing thing that I
(49:31):
think a lot of people don't talk about or maybe
understand is the idea that fasting does hold a purpose
beyond just consuming less. When we're elevated in keytones, we
actually see that it's neuroprotective. You're improving energy production to
the brain, and it's anti inflammatory to the brain. And
(49:55):
we've seen it improved outcomes with traumatic brain injury, for example.
So when there's areas of the brain that are injured
like TBI, which can be from mental stress as well
as physiologic stress, like an insult to the brain, like
a physical insult to the brain, you know, like being
struck with a bat, or being in a car accident,
(50:15):
or you know something depression, and some of those things
can actually look like that. And so when we are
you know, turning these things on and rewiring and sending
new blood flow to them through potentially being elevated in keytnes,
I think that's something that we can lean into, and
that's something I've talked about in my lectures, is that
(50:39):
you know, taking something like berberine or dihydro burberine having
exogenous key tones, having like C eight mcts also called
cuprillic acid, having an extended fast going in you know,
depending what it looks like coming out, you could do
a ketogenic diet potentially, and that's going to have a
(51:02):
fair amount of protein to your point, as well as
elevated fat. And that's something that lean into is kind
of helping your brain rewire. And I do believe that, yes,
like this has been done for thousands of years, the fast,
you know, going into psychedelic experiences. And yes, there is
the kind of more philosophical level of a fast of
(51:23):
consuming less of the things that you normally consume. And
you know, whether it you know, be terrible movies and
porn and you know whatever, or also foods and alcohol
and sex and you know whatever. Yes, but it can
also be just consuming nothing and then having elevated key
(51:44):
tones and then it's helping the brain rewire in a
way that just was impossible, and it's really augmenting the
effects of a.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Psychedelic that's really interesting. And I'm so glad you brought
that up. And you know, I think the fasting is
especially doing it intern can be really really helpful. I
know a lot of the indigenous traditions also used around
psychedelic medicines, also used fasting in before ceremonies and that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
And we upregulating autophagy as well. When you're fast, and
autopogy is like taking that like little vacuum cleaner to yourselves,
cleaning out yourselves, making them young. It's like an synolytic
you know kind of effect as well. And this is
literally renewing ourselves. And like doctor Matt Cook talks about
when he does you know, ketamine that you know, he's
(52:32):
giving nads, giving exisomes, he's you know, doing these things
because when your brain is renewing, your body can renew.
So this is an optimal time when your nervous system
is down and relaxed, you actually can make physiologic changes.
When your body's in fight or flight all the time,
(52:53):
you're not absorbing nutrients. Well, you're not like renewing your body. Well,
you're in fight or flight. Your nutrients are being used differently.
Your body thinks that you're being attacked. It's not worrying
about cleaning and detoxing. That's when you're in parasympathetic, that's
when you're relaxed. So this is like the most optimal
time to actually potentially do some of these you know,
(53:15):
if you're working with the right facilitator, I do think
that's the next frontiers when we're administering peptides and exosomes
and you know, things like this during the journey potentially
or immediately thereafter.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Well, I think you are one hundred percent spot on,
and I really am grateful for your perspective. I want
to be extra respectful for your time because we're a
little bit over and just wanted to thank you again
for taking time to join me. I think that this
was undoubtedly the most comprehensive review of what to take
(53:52):
and what to eat after a psychedelic experience that I've
ever seen, short of you know, the actual indigenous tribal
traditions themselves. This is like very extensive, and I think
it gives our listeners a really incredible framework for how
to make sure they're getting the most out of their
experiences and they understand, you know, how to use these
(54:13):
supplement based and natural plant based tools to augment our
learning and recovery and healing that we can get with
and without psychedelic experiences, but particularly with because it just
makes these experiences more safer and easier for us to
access and get good results out of. So thank you again.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, you got it, You got it and if anyone
has a question you can hit me up at Sean
Wells Sahawn on Instagram. I forget whether I gave you
my stack and the last one, but I can give
you a print out stack for this one. It'd be
great for your notes people want to follow up. There
already are other clinics like Ceremonia using it, so there
(54:56):
actually is quite a bit more it can go into,
you know, pretty extreme depth. I like to do that.
So anyway, it was great talking to you, doctor Dave,
and I really love our conversations.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Thanks for listening to The Psychedelic Report. Visit us at
the Psychedelic Report dot com. This show is recorded weekly
on Clubhouse with a live audience. The Psychedelic Report was
brought to you by Apollo Neuroscience and produced by Future
Medicine Media. While I am a doctor, I'm not your doctor,
(55:33):
So please don't take anything you hear on The Psychedelic
Report as personal medical advice, because we don't know you.
If you have questions about anything you hear on this show,
please consult with your doctor.
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