December 20, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode, Dr. Dave Rabin engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Skippy Mesirow. They delve into the evolving landscape of psychedelic medicine, discussing recent setbacks in the FDA's decision regarding MDMA-assisted therapy and the implications for the broader psychedelic community. Skippy shares his journey as a facilitator in the psychedelic space, offering insights from his work in Colorado's movement and innovative approaches in Aspen. Together, they discuss the vital role of community, compassion, and collaboration in advancing therapies, reflect on the healing and creative energy of Burning Man, and emphasize the importance of unity among advocates for decriminalization and legalization.
Tune in for an inspiring call to action and valuable insights from two dedicated leaders in the field.
Tune in for an inspiring call to action and valuable insights from two dedicated leaders in the field.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Psychedelic Reports. Psychedelic drugs have played their part in
America's long strange trip toward an understanding of mind. All
during drugs The Psychedelic News.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Leading physicians, scientists, and experts share their wisdom about psychedelic
medicines and healing.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Fifty years ago, psychedelic drugs were at the center of
America's counterculture. The brightest minds in psychedelic medicine the Psychedelic Report.
We use the kedemy assisted psychotherapy model that happens to
have psychedelic effects that were not predicted when the drug
was first developed. From researchers to investors. I think the
biggest mistake we pat as the culture is the war
(00:38):
of drugs.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So physicians to shamans and non private pioneers psychedelic drugs.
Recent research suggests some of them could have legitimate uses.
The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
lines of this exciting movement, The Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
your host doctor Dave raven I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MDMA assisted therapy.
(01:22):
In the wake of the FDA's disappointing decision where they
did not approve MDMA assisted therapy for PTSD, an article
was published in The New York Times on December sixteenth
entitled Seeking Relief from Brain Injury, some Veterans turned to psychedelics.
Unable to find effective treatments at home, veterans with brain
(01:45):
injury symptoms are going abroad for psychedelics like ibogaine that
are illegal in the US. This has been a major
issue in America where those who have made the ultimate
sacrifice of risking their lives to protect are freedom and
the freedom of all American citizens have struggled to get
adequate treatment for mental health issues upon returning home. The
(02:09):
psychedelic movement is one major example of how we are
not taking good enough care of our veterans, and so
our veterans are taking their care into their own hands.
This article from December sixteenth in The New York Times,
authored by Dave Phillips, does a very nice job of
(02:30):
highlighting the challenges the veterans face in America seeking treatment,
and how the FDA has really done a disservice to
veterans by not making treatments like psychedelic assisted therapy more
available to those suffering from PTSD. This has caused a
(02:51):
tremendous backlash in the community where veterans and others who
have been struggling with PTSD and brain injury as well
well have started to seek treatment more commonly from those
who are untrained or from those providing care in unsupervised,
unregulated environments like overseas environments with medicines and drugs that
(03:16):
are not pharmaceutical grade and not regulated, which ultimately puts
these folks at more risk. Were MDMA assist to therapy
to b FDA cleared veterans would be able to access
these powerful treatments on US soil. To discuss the legalization
(03:39):
of psychedelics, which is a major topic in the news
right now, I'm joined by Skippy Mezsio. Skippy is at
the forefront of political innovation and wellness advocacy as the
founder of the Elected Leaders Collective. He is a certified
master coach, renown facilitator, and mediator, deeply involved in transformative
(04:03):
leadership and community engagement. Skippy also hosts the Healing of
Our Politics podcast on which I appeared recently, which you
should all check out, and serves on the Natural Medicine
Advisory Board and the Aspens Psychedelic Resource Center Board, focusing
on psychedelic healing, education, science, and harm reduction. His measurable
(04:26):
accomplishments include spearheading the Mobilized the Movement initiative and training
leaders in one hundred cities to enact one hundred new
psychedelic laws. Skippy is a seasoned speaker, and his past
roles have profoundly shaped his current initiatives. As the deputy
political director for Illinois and the five State Region in
(04:48):
the Obama for America two thousand and eight campaign, he
played a meaningful role in historic electoral victory. Skippy managed
Jesse White's twenty ten campaign for Secretary of State, a
chief White's largest victory margin. Over a twenty six year
political career on the Aspen City Council, he was instrumental
in launching initiatives that supported local businesses with six million
(05:11):
dollars in aid, creating over six hundred affordable housing units,
and established Aspen's first net zero waste goal by twenty fifty.
As an advocate and organizer, he led an effort to
pass about initiative that resulted in Aspen's highest ever voter
turnout by twenty six percent and evolved housing policy in
(05:31):
a meaningful way. Skippy is truly a remarkable human. Today,
I'm bringing you a conversation that we had back in September,
covering his impressions of the FDA's decision around MDMA assistant therapy,
the political landscape around psychedelic legalization, the attitudes at Burning
Man this year, and much more. Skippy, thank you so
(05:56):
much for joining us today. It's such a pleasure to
have you have my buddy. It's so nice to see you.
Nice to see you too. And you know, I think
a couple of things I wanted to talk to you about,
amongst which are you know, you just got back from
Burning Man, what was the vibe and energy like there?
Given that this was a very very challenging year in
(06:17):
the psychedelic community. We faced lots of setbacks, lots of delays,
and you know, there's a lot of people who are hopeful,
and there's a lot of people who are really having
a hard time. But before we even get to that,
I would love to first get your thoughts as somebody
who's been so active in the psychedelic community at large,
(06:38):
as a representative of the people, right and somebody who
has worked in the Colorado government, Aspen government, and you know,
Aspen in Colorado have these extremely progressive angles on the
way that I that they've addressed psychedelic medicine, psychedelics as medicine,
not just as you know, for recreational use, and I
(06:59):
think that's a really interesting model for all of us
to understand. I'd love to hear more about also what
you have experienced in that environment that we could all
learn from, and then what is coming that's really exciting
as well. And you know, and with that in mind,
let's start out with what do you think about everything
that's been going on in the you know, FDA's disappointing
(07:24):
decision around MBMA assisted therapy.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, I appreciate that, and I appreciate your coverage of it.
That Psychedelic Report has been a big part of my
information gathering around this as well. You know, I think
for me, as a former legislator, I'm always aware of
what I'm not aware of and I think that's really
important that we're not or I'm not making assumptions about
(07:49):
things I don't know, but really trying to get drown
groundshoede source material, layering that with my understanding of process,
but recognizing each process is different. And this has actually
been coming up for me a good amount. I'm currently
in a facilitator training through in Nuopa to be able
to legally deliver you know, psychedelic medicines in what I
(08:10):
would think of as a therapeutic environment. I'm not a doctor,
but a healing environment for folks come you know, January
or on. And I would say within that community, there's
been a lot of my perception fear, a lot of despondency,
(08:31):
a lot of confusion, and a lot of shock. And
the shock is the one that really gets me because
having been involved in a public process for a long time,
a denial of something game changing on round one is
not shocking. It's the expectation, right. We have to think
about the incentive structures that are there and then also
(08:53):
the publicly reinforcing container in which these decisions are made
for people that don't have a lived experience, who don't
have a tangential experience of someone else, like we can
forget as people who have been in the psychedelic ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I mean, what was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It like for you as a listener the first time
you ever tried a psychedelic of any kind. I know,
for me it was really scary.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I had all.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Kinds of stories. I was sure until I was probably
twenty something that acid and heroin are the two things
that you never do because you will instantly become addicted
and you will die. And the fact that those two
things can't happen at the same didn't matter. That's what
was going to happen to me. And I really felt
(09:39):
that way, And so I think we can forget that
for people who are making these decisions and the you know,
their social world does not provide, you know, alternative reality
of what these medicines can do. We're asking them to
take on a lot of perceived reputational risks. And as
(10:01):
a legislator, I can't tell you the number of times
that I have seen something that is like, deeply meaningful
and important that stands to have public benefit come forward
that makes perfect sense to me get rejected out of hand,
but then it comes back a second or third time.
And sometimes nothing changes and it gets accepted because it
just takes time for these things to work through the
gears of a public process in which the decision makers
(10:23):
are really in the panopticon. And so what I've been
trying to remind folks of who asked me this is
this process didn't start two years ago or four years
ago when you first heard of it. It's almost forty
years ago. This process is older than me. You know.
I've had conversations with Rick and I'll get some of
(10:44):
the details wrong on our podcast, the Healing Our Politics podcast,
And I mean it was I think twenty seven years
before the first trial even starts with seven or eight rejections.
So what I remind people of is this is a
long road. The people that got us here have had
more endurance and follow through than I could ever imagine happening.
(11:08):
I can't imagine better people to continue this forward. And
when this gets approved, and I do believe it will
get approved, we will look back at this moment as
a speed bump, but we will do so because we
chose to use this moment to double down on our
efforts to meet people who don't understand where this is
(11:31):
coming from. Where this is new with kindness and compassion
and curiosity, that we didn't demonize them and enemy them
and then create a conflict that creates more resistance for us,
but actually engages them and brings them into the circle
of trust and advocacy and expands the psychedelic universe as
a response. So, you know, to me, this is a
(11:55):
not surprising b It's our reality, and it's one that
will have a tremendous amount of harm for some very
real humans right now. And it's our responsibility to use
this challenge, to use this setback to move the movement forward,
just as you would with a challenging experience in your
own psychedelic experience. I think we have to trade it
(12:17):
that way.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I agree. I think that's an extremely thoughtful perspective to
look at this through. You know, at least for me
hearing you describe it in that way, it provides like
clarity to the lens that I'm looking at the situation through,
which is which is really great. And so I'm so
glad that we get to have this conversation. One thing
(12:39):
that troubles me about what has happened in this current situation,
And you know, I think that it's quite unprecedented that.
Not that the FDA denied it, that's not surprising, but
the way the manner in which this was, this whole
thing was conducted was alarming because as an outside group
(13:01):
was clearly influencing the FDA's decision by writing these letters
that they have you know, now openly published, so like
there's no secrets here, like they have said that they
were communicating to do this with the FDA, and the
media hasn't really the mainstream media and the media at
large just hasn't really talked about this, but they have
talked about MDMA in a way that is very damning
(13:23):
and the way that they convey the decision that was made.
You know, there's very very few articles that are talking
about how this treatment is literally life saving and really
could revolutionize mental health, which is the truth based on
the results of the trials, of which the last one,
I believe, was named one of the most top one
(13:44):
hundred important publications in the last one hundred years of
science by Science magazine. Right, so this is Science Journals,
so it's like a top tier journal in the world,
and these are this is known that the results are
so good. So to your point, we are going to
get it over the line. The good news is it's
going to be available at some point. The bad news
is we don't know when now because of the barriers
(14:04):
that are in place that will cause a aise. But
it will get through because the results are too good
for it not to get through.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And yeah, also it does offer that, you know, this
doesn't exist in a silo in a strange way, and
this is this is just my hypothesis based on going
through a lot of other, you know, kind of laterally
related legislative processes. This failure also increases the likelihood of
(14:30):
success of adjacent therapies, whether those are with psychedelic mushrooms,
et cetera, which are currently in trials under review and
coming forward sooner than this will come back. So we
also have to remember that. And you know, it's an
unfortunate truth of the universe whether and you know this,
whether you're an entrepreneur or you're passing a law, being
(14:52):
first is not always best in terms of your personal success. Right,
Like Apple and IBM weren't the first computer products. It
takes some time. So I agree with you with an exception,
which is ketymine, right, Is MDMA really the first Or
has ketamine been a legal psychedelic medicine that only started
(15:15):
being used for its psychedelic effects in large scale in
the early late nineties early two thousands. Wasn't that the
first FDA cleared or at least asketmine theer version? Wasn't
that the first FDA cleared psychedelic like five years ago
or something like that? Like why are we so resistant
as a culture?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Like I get that change in government is inherently resistant,
but like, do you think that the media's representation of
what's going on is doing a disservice to this movement
to get these groundbreaking therapeutic treatments out to all the
people who are suffering from millions of people suffering from
(15:52):
these you know, very hard to treatmental illnesses. Like is
the media serving the cause of getting people care and
access to this treatment or do you feel like what
they're doing is actually harmful.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I will not make the claim that I have a
full scope and understanding of everything that is or isn't
being written.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, of course does just your impressions, Like what is
the vibe you get when you see what's being conveyed
in the media.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Everyone who's listening is going to have heard of different
subsection of articles, et cetera. So I can't I can't
answer that question from a qualified, honest place. What I
can tell you is, and you know, we just had
a doctor Diana Smith on the Are you familiar with her?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
On our podcast?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
She just wrote a book called Remaking the Space between Us,
and it's you know, effectively, the thesis is like to
fix our politics. It's not about policy, it's about relationships.
And she focuses a lot on media and what she
talks about, which which I think I agree with, is
the media is a business and it focuses not on
(16:57):
what is right or wrong. Certainly, if we look at
say human outcomes around education or lifespan or a number
of things, over the last one hundred years, there have
been wild improvements, but you never read that in the paper.
You read, you know, somebody got hit by a car
yesterday and there.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Was a shooting.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And so I think the general predisposition of the media
is towards sensationalism as opposed to objective truth. And I
think that the psychedelic world has benefited from that. For
a long time, there was a lot of positive articles
about studies and stuff when that was new, etc. Now
(17:37):
that there's an opportunity for a shift, I think the
more sensational thing to report is the downside. And I
think many of us probably predicted this would come at
some point if we had a rational mindset, And so
now we're seeing it and it feels really different and
it feels unfair as a result of that. Partially that's
true based on the evidence of the studies, but part
(17:58):
of it is also you know, seeing or feeling it
in contrast to what we have.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Become used to.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The No Rules podcast, the first episode was all about,
you know, referees and the move to autumn. I don't
know what this thing like instant replay and cameras in
that and when they made that shift. According to that
podcast and Michael Lewis's writings on this, it made the
objectivity of calls and professional sports better. But the fans
(18:28):
didn't like it, and who liked it the least were
the star athletes, who, unbeknownst to them, had been getting
referential treatment and now they weren't right. And so I
do think there's this also this element of we've been
getting really great press and now we're kind of feeling
what others have felt and that can feel really hurtful.
I don't know if that quite answers your question. But
(18:49):
doctor Smith, what Diana suggests is it's up to us
to take ownership of our media environment as well. It's
up to us to question the since sational bias of media.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Not just up to us, but like and should be
taught as like a mandatory function of humans. Right, is
that you should question information coming in.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I couldn't agree more so.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a challenging moment in
terms of what is in the press, but I think
there's some larger dynamics going on.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah. I think that's you know, the point is well
taken given you know, you follow the money and you
usually can figure out what is motivating different parties to
make different decisions. Right, Sensationalism and particularly sensationalizing fear is
something that the mainstream media is doing for a very
very long time to make money. You're listening to the
(19:43):
Psychedelic Report. I think the main point that you made
that kind of got I want to make sure to
bring back up to emphasize is the idea that one
of the unfortunate side effects that we are likely to
see from the FDA's decision on MBMA assisted therapy is
that many of the other clinical approvals of psychedelic medicines
(20:06):
will likely be delayed or face other challenges that are
more similar to what MDMA assistet therapy has faced, in
large part because a lot of those clinical trials were
conducted in a way that was modeled directly after the
MAPS trials, because the MAPS trials had been conducted very
well under a high degree of rigor. So you know,
I think a lot of these groups were doing similar
(20:29):
study tactics and behaviors. So you know, there may be
a lot of challenges, and I think it's important for
people to understand that these decisions that get made have
a much wider reaching impact on the field.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I mean we'll only know
what we know when it happens. I think two things
can be true at the same time that seem to
be contrary on one hand, and you talked about this
with John Lubecki on your last podcast. Opponents of anything
are watching for playbooks that work, and so we are
likely to see the repetition or the increase of similar
(21:06):
types of attacks on future applications. I think that's that's
pretty likely, and so that will hamper, especially if the
press is now looking for those things and picking up
on them, will hamper the opportunity of those things to
move forward in a streamline way. I will also say that,
and I'll give just you know, a very local example
(21:26):
that anyone who's ever been through a land news zoning
process has. Right, Like in any community that is anti development,
whether you're a small mountain town or you're San Francisco,
you're a big city, people like to find reasons in
the code to deny things that you know, we can't
build this child center because there's just not enough parking.
(21:48):
Parking is never really the issue, but it is something
that's used to interject in the process, and people pick
up on that, and so in the next hearing they
come back and they say the same thing about parking.
But what I have a r is people in decision
making roles are very often queued into what's really going
on and what that strategy is. And if there is
(22:09):
evidence in rationale for an approval of something, you will
see the goalpost move. So the two spaces that were
the reason we couldn't do it, next time, maybe it
has to.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Be five or ten.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And so there is sort of a normalization around those
counter arguments as well that actually has them become less
significant over time. And that's sort of what I was
talking about about this failure potentially, you know, greasing the wheel,
so to speak, for future approvals, is those same levels
of critique now that they've been engaged out in the open,
(22:42):
they've been discussed. Counterexamples have come up because people listening
to this podcast have taken the effort and the interest
to do that to educate others to show up more
forcefully at a future hearing in the ways that are
permitted and allowed to them. You know, I don't necessarily
see that those things generally compound. They tend to lessen
over time. So I think it's a bit of both.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I completely agree, and you know, I think that's another
you know, it's a great way to think about this situation,
and I thank you for sharing that perspective to switch
gears for a moment. One of the things that you
have been working on that I find very interesting is
the Colorado psychedelic movement and where that interfaces with Colorado
(23:24):
politics like an Aspen and as we mentioned earlier. You know,
Colorado is one particular state that has set a very
interesting example for psychedelics and bringing psychedelics as medicine into
the community. Organ is another state that's been trying to
do that has had a lot of challenges. That being said,
(23:44):
can you talk a little bit about you know, what's
been happening in the Colorado scene that's been so progressive
and exciting for the psychedelic movement and Aspens specifically, since
you know that's where you were, and then we can
talk about what's coming.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And so I just also want to be super clear
about what I can and can't talk about and why,
and the why is always so that this process is successful.
So I did, as a sitting city council person in Aspen, Colorado,
having had healing experiences with psychedelic medicines myself that not
only improve my life, my well being, my mental health,
(24:20):
but also my leadership in those roles, suggested that Aspen,
which has a very progressive history around drug policy. On Raus,
Thompson famously loses by a couple of votes for mayor,
and the people that followed were many of the people
that I got to interact with early in my time
of service, and sadly we're kind of losing the last
of them with just the generational shift, but that a
(24:43):
town who has that history, has that pre existing culture,
and who has four times the national suicide rate should
be looking at every possible opportunity of healing out there.
And as a result of those comments, we put together
a community led working group which I facilitated. I didn't
(25:06):
lead very specifically, I helped facilitate. And there's some really
amazing leaders who came up from that. Martha hammil Laura
Betty who now run the Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center and
put on the Aspen Psychedelic Symposium and do work around
the country on psychedelic policy and harm reduction and training.
(25:27):
And Isaac Flanagan, who has been living in Ukraine doing
work on the front lines and trying to get not
just tools and healing modalities, but tools of victory to troops.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
On the front line.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And what we were able to put together was, you know,
as far as I know, the first municipal level model
for the therapeutic delivery of psychedelic medicines in the country.
And we did that with support of people who came
before us, as we always do. Graham Boyd, who you
know and had helped us with our policy framework, and
(26:05):
some of his legal team, Kevin Matthews who passed the
first psychedelic reform in the country with a large group
out of Denver, Melissa Lavasani out of d C. So
it was just amazing to see the relationality and camaraderie
in support of the psychedelic universe. And then to your point,
we took this longer community based approach because we wanted
(26:26):
something that really worked and responded to the need. And
we kind of got beat to the punch by Prop
One twenty two in which the Colorado voters adopted the
Natural Medicine Act, and that is a piece of legislation
that provides for kind of two paths to psychedelic use.
(26:47):
And I guess this is where I interjected to share
what I can and can't share. I can talk about
the Act, but I am I'm on as you mentioned,
the Governor's appointed board of fifteen people creating the regulatory
framework from within that I can't talk about the specific
policy work that we're doing. Those are all public meetings.
You can go to them. And the reason that I
can't talk about it. Here is to get the policy right,
(27:11):
two things have to happen. You actually have to have
a right policy, and you have to have public trust.
So to have public trust, we want to make sure
that everyone is in the conversation, that those conversations are public,
that information is freely shared, that it's the same information
for all decision makers. And what I can say is,
I've been through a lot of public processes and this
(27:32):
is by far the best one that I've ever experienced,
and so I want to honor that and welcome people
to and you could probably put in the show notes.
I can give you an email for a staffer so
that if people do want to have input, they want
to come give back for testimony, they want to offer
direct feedback on proposed or promulgated rules, they have an
avenue to do that. But that's the appropriate place for that.
(27:56):
So with that said, Natural Medicine Act allows for two
ways to access psychedelic medicines. One is what's considered personal use.
That's already in place, that happened quite a while ago,
and that allows for individuals to grow hold and use
medicines within their own life. But it does not allow
(28:19):
for the exchange of money, the exchange of services, the
transport of those medicines, etc. All of those things are
reserved for what is called the regulated market, and so
we've been in a process of rulemaking creating a framework
for the regulated delivery of those medicines. And you could
(28:41):
think of that as facilitated co facilitated therapeutic healing, coaching,
indigenous like a lot of these other kind of useforms
that are more structured and could involve the exchange of
money for services. Those fall into the regulated market. And
(29:01):
so we're standing up an entire framework from A to B,
soup to nuts within a year. That's never happened to
my knowledge. In the state of Colorado, I think there
are over thirty state boards, and my understanding unverified, but
I believe I heard this from a staff or is
our single board was over a third of total man
hours last year for all of those boards. So it's
(29:24):
been a heavy lift. The first year is psilocybin only,
and then the second year the law allows for it
but does not require the expansion to include other medicines
which include a broader scope of psilocybin or silasin containing compounds,
DMT containing compounds mescaline containing compounds, with the exclusion of
(29:45):
peyote for Native American rights and ecological reasons. I believe
that also would include some other things. It does not
include synthetics at this point, although that's a conversation that
could happen we find ourselves in that process. The initial
rules are published, they are approved, they are promulgated, they
(30:07):
are on the state website. People can check those out.
There are already a number of training facilities that will
be training facilitators that have been approved. There are others
in the pipeline and there will be additional releases over
the coming months around facilitator training, licensing, healing centers, et cetera.
(30:29):
To be ready for service delivery January one, and then
the potential expansion thereafter.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Wow, that is such an impressive amount of work.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
That's a lot, but it's wildly I mean, yeah, the
millennia of work that has been done by folks to
allow for these medicines to reach people is just awe
inspiring and to be able to play some very small role,
some link in the chain, as Rick always says, to
continue to move these opportunities for healing and connection forwar.
(31:04):
It is just just an incredible honor.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Absolutely. You know. The thing that interests me most about
this topic and how much work is being done in
the state of Colorado that's so exciting. On the forefront
really of this movement, you know, is basically this topic
that you and I have discussed before, maybe a couple
times now, which is that there is a perceived gap
(31:30):
or rivalry perhaps between folks who are heavy proponents of
decriminalization of psychedelics and and who are mostly recreational users
for the large part, and then the other side, which
is legalization, which has no problem with d crim but
(31:52):
wants to make sure that the legalization goes through accordingly,
because legalization makes it completely legal, so it is all
of dcrem plus allows doctors to provide it to patients
and therapists illlegally prevented to patients, and creates research opportunities
that open up. So there's a lot of obvious benefits
to the legalization process. But there's a lot of folks
who are focused on and who are sort of in
(32:13):
some ways, you know, radically focused on the decriminalization over all.
Else that seems to be some part of what was
motivating this outside group symposia in their contact with the
FDA to basically delay and BNA assisted therapy can getting
legally approved because they're all focused on d CRIM and
(32:35):
they think d CRIM should be the focus for everyone.
So I'm curious as somebody who has who is you
know involved in both sides of it? Have you seen
any of this as well over the last couple of years,
and how do you think this is being handled in Colorado?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
And there's so many different ways that I could go
with that. Any movement, in my observation of great social
change requires people with perspectives on both polls and everywhere
in between. The social rights movement required MLK and Malcolm X.
(33:15):
I think this is the nature of change and the
nature of humanity.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
But like the question, isn't it bipolar? Though, like when
we're actually have the same goals?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Right? Let me let me continue. I think I think
that that is the reality. We have to exist within
our reality. And regardless of where you fall on that spectrum,
I think it's your responsibility to ask, do I want
to be right or do I want to be successful?
(33:48):
Do I want this to be about victory or outcomes?
And to be honest as a coach, do I want
this to be about me?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Or do I want me?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
This to be about the outcomes? And I think it's
all of our responsibility to ask those things and to
try to meet the other side with understanding and compassion
and the opportunity to collaborate, and to recognize that not
(34:18):
one of us, despite whatever we may think, knows, we
just don't know. We can't predict the future, we don't
know what's in other people's heads. And our responsibility is
to move this forward as collaboratively, constructively, and collectively as
(34:39):
we can. That doesn't mean we can't have rigorous debates,
It doesn't mean that we can't disagree. Those things are great,
we should do those things. But if there is any
movement that has existed that should be able to move
past the petty bullshit and the caricacter attack and the
demonization of one another, it should be those in the
(35:01):
psychedelic movement. And if you can't do that, maybe you
should question whether these medicines are working the way that
you think that they are. Right, that's my personal opinion,
And yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Maybe you're maybe you're not using them properly. Yeah, the
outcomes that you could be getting of such ventualization right, Yeah,
that's right, which also, you know, for for some on
somewhere on that spectrum would be a data point of
how these medicines should be or should not be administered.
You're listening to the psychedelic report and also recognizing people
(35:35):
have different base rationale for why these medicines should be available. Now,
for some people it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Is really for the opportunity to heal. For others, this
is simply an argument of personal freedom. And until you
can openly disclose and talk about where you're coming from,
it's hard to find a workable place. But if you
see the opposing side of anything as an enemy to demonize,
(36:01):
then it is within yourself that you will be most
benefited by looking. That's been my experience.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I think that makes a lot of sense, you know.
I think part of what psychedelic medicines teach our patients
and that we learn in our trainings is like one
of the core sentiments, going back to your comment about
maybe if you feel more divided from your fellow person
and from your community and you're using medicine, perhaps you're
(36:30):
not using medicine, right, Like when the single biggest sentiment,
one of the first biggest, most important sentiments that every
single one of our patients, we make sure that they
realize this on their own. We set up the environment
for them to recognize and feel this on their own
in their experience. Is like two or three major things
takeaways right from their first Ketemine experiences with therapy. It's
(36:55):
we have more in common than we do different. Yeah, right,
We're all human first. We're all human first, and we
have more in common than we do different. So if
we have more in common than we do different, then
we can always work together to find a middle ground
before we blow every single thing like sky high.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Right, absolutely, I mean this is I mean, look, this
is what I do for a living, This is what
I do professionally. This is what I do as a leader.
Now is I help leaders like you listening heal your communities.
We do that by doing the inner work. And one
of the one of the tenants of that work is
sort of the bigger the reaction, the bigger the trigger,
(37:36):
the bigger the opportunity, like the bigger the arrow inwards.
These reactions are life in the universe's way of telling
us where we can apply the work to better ourselves.
But what I can promise you is that will not
inhibit you from being successful. That will make you more successful. Right,
If we think about the leaders that we almost universally
(37:59):
lion eze, whether that's Nelson Mandela or Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt,
or Winston Churchill, these are folks who were leaders in
their younger life. They were leaders with passion, they were
leaders with ferocity. They were leaders of a claim that
(38:19):
people saw benefiting. But the commonality amongst them is they
had very severe struggle somewhere in the middle of their life.
Either they were locked up for twenty eight years, they
experienced polio, they had severe depression, and instead of being
taken out by those things, they use those things to
look inward. They built understanding of self and from that
(38:42):
place then they were able to empathize with those who
are not like them. They were able to expand their
circle of understanding. And it was from that place that
they were then able to go out and do the
work of bridging and healing externality, bringing people into together
in ways that were perhaps imperfect but fundamentally change the
(39:04):
course of history. And we lionize those people for that.
They become legendary for that. So yeah, it's slower. Yeah,
it's fucking hard. I don't know if I can swear
on your podcast. That's where mind. But that is how
you become a transformational leader is by bringing in those
who differ with you, having enough security and self confidence
(39:27):
in yourself to be able to hear opposing views, to
hold things in contest, to have dissonance in your own mind,
and so you know, if you're feeling these things, great,
so have I I'm sure Dave has too.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
We all have. We're Humanness is normal. The question is
what do you want to do with it?
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Not for the benefit of yourself, but for the benefit
of all of us. And I think we have a
special opportunity within the psychedelic movement to really model that
for our broader politics.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah, I think that's a great that's a great point.
We as we say right, like as above, so below,
you heal yourself by doing the work to bring all
the parts of yourself together as one person, and that
reflects outward into the community in the way that we
build relationships and make sure that everybody remembers always that
(40:17):
you know, one of the most important rules of being
human is that we're all human first. We always wants
needs and desires.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, can I make this take it back to the
Aspen process to make it a little more specific about
what this might look like in real life. And then
I want to ask you about burning Man before you
wrap up good, because I was really disappointed we didn't
talk about that. So, you know, in the Aspen process,
it was a totally open call, right, everybody was welcome,
and we really took the time to hear where everyone
(40:45):
was coming from and not just their policy prescriptions, but
why they care about this. What's their lived experience. Did
they have a friend whose life was saved, They have
a personal experience with psychedelic medicines, did they you know,
read a Michael Pollan article like, we took the ten
to get to know each other's humans first, to learn
our motivations so that we're not just jumping down each
other's throat around disagreement. And we heard from everybody, and
(41:07):
we had a very wide spectrum of what people did
or didn't want to do, and then we had some
you know, facilitated conversations where everybody really got to have
a voice and we came to consensus. Consensus is something
you can live with. It's not exactly what you want.
And some people couldn't live with that, and some people said, hey,
I'm a psychotherapist and this is a little too lenient
(41:30):
for me. I'm concerned about my license, Like I just
don't think that I can support this. Someone else said, hey,
I you know, my belief is that this is a
human rights issue, that we should have fundamental freedoms and
if there's going to be any restriction, like I can't
in my constitution get behind this. And our response wasn't like, well,
fuck you, you're an asshole. We'll get out of here.
It was like, we totally get that, we hear you,
(41:52):
we understand this is what's important to you, and this
is where we are to move something forward. And we
just want you to know that we have heard what
you said. We've incre grated it the best we can.
And if you have a change of heart at any point,
or you just want to come back and you're not
even going to vote for this thing, but you want
to continue to have influence, like this door is open,
you are welcome here. And that worked as not a kill.
(42:14):
It's a genuine invitation. With that I did too, but
you know it's a genuine invitation and that's the perspective
and the actions we took that I think are quite effective.
And you know, I mentioned Kevin Matthews. Kevin Matthews and
a large group of people remarkably in twenty nineteen past
(42:36):
the first psilocybin reform d crim in Denver at a
time when nobody thought this was possible and people were
laughing rather than even campaigning against them in many cases.
But you know, Kevin had a vision that he came
to me with a couple of years ago for something
called mobilize the movement, and so I helped him bring
(42:56):
this vision forward. We did a full day training at
Psychologic Science twenty three that kicked it off. But Kevin
and MTM are training one hundred leaders in one hundred
cities to pass one hundred new psychedelic laws, and part
and parcel to that is not prescribing what those laws are.
It's recognizing that every community is different, that what's possible
(43:18):
in one place is not possible in another, what's beneficial
in one place might not be beneficial in the same
way in another, and that we should lean into and
accept the laboratory of democracy that we have, allow results
to come forward and learn as we go, and not
require or let perfection be the enemy of the possible,
(43:40):
not allow divergent views around this to make one of
us right or wrong, but simply to make space for
all of it, and then let the evidence demonstrate what
we want and trust that we.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
All want to be well.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
We all want to heal, We all want to be
loved and to love, to connect and be together, and
we will, as human organisms naturally matriculate to the things
that are working.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
And we want to feel good.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
We want to feel good. And let it be known
that love more is on the shirt that I look
at it, David, and I do want to love more
and I want to be loved more. We can take
a moment and pause, to take a breath and find
that trust in our fellow human beings as we would
want them to trust in us.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah. Absolutely, And with that, I think it's a perfect
segue into your experience at Burning Man this year, because
these are a lot of the sentiments you just described
so eloquently, are you know, the core philosophies of Burning
Man and really at the heart of this experience And
I'm curious give it all the challenges the psychedelic community
(44:43):
has faced this year. What was the tone of Burning Man?
How was it overall?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, well, one, we were genuinely bummed that you and
Catherine weren't there.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
That was our main that was what we went in with.
So hopefully next year. I'm also very biased. I got
engaged on Plia this year, which.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Is very exciting. Thank you, so exciting. So that was
pretty remarkable in so many ways. I was the best
burn I've ever had. I kind of say that every time.
I think a lot of us that have been going
for a while, certainly, I mean, I met a guy
who was I think eighty five this year, was at
(45:22):
his twenty ninth burn, who just built a brand new
art car.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
He's eighty five, and.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
He's driving around on a thirty foot tall Howe on stilt,
so with the biggest smile on his face, and his
son is there, and it's you know, it's just it's remarkable,
right like what people do and are. But our hope,
candidly and sorry if I'm excluding you from the club,
is that a year of intense heat and a year
(45:49):
of rain would mean that some of the folks who
were drawn to Burning Man not to be participatory, but
to be extracting images for personal benefit would be less
encouraged to go and maybe we were looking for that,
but that's kind of what we experienced. There was a
few less people there and we were kind of just
back in it together and that felt really good. But yeah,
(46:12):
the lingering shadow of the like Ghost decision was also there.
I mean, you know, I had those conversations. I tried
to not super effectively, the late night conversation, like convey
my appreciation to some of the folks on the maps,
like Ghost Team, who I can't imagine how hard that
(46:35):
is for them, you know, just to offer gratitude for
their effort. But you know, that feeling is there too.
But I can't leave the ply in order to people
that I went with that I know, can't leave without
feeling rejuvenated and recharged in the just unbelievable possibility and
(46:59):
create activity of the human spirit, and to feel so
lucky for the wild presentation of reality in which on
this tiny blue dot floating through empty space at thousands
of miles an hour on an average arm of an
average spiral universe galaxy, you know, in the middle of nothing,
(47:22):
that somehow life decided to constitute and I happened to
be born at the moment within that lifespan that we
could decide to like cheaply make LEDs to turn an
old bus into a forty foot tall jellyfish that plays music,
Like what in the world is that? But how lucky
I am to get to see.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
It, which makes me real jealous, Oh my god. But
also school bus and the jellyfish, school.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Bus, you name it, it's out there.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Do you lise to me?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
But there's also such solemn and deep moments I was
I was out at there was an art piece called
We Will Dance Again. And you know, October seventh, hundreds
of concertgoers and a peace festival in the southern desert
and the Negev of Israel were murdered viciously, and some
(48:19):
of the people that were at that event, and you know,
has got to be one of the most astounding protests
of the human spirit. Come back to Burning Man and
rebuild a central art piece from there identically, and put
memorials to those who lost their lives, and do a
ceremony for those who lost their lives while celebrating peace,
(48:44):
and then turn, at the moment that the attack starts
into a dance party with the same DJ set that
was playing when it happened. I can't imagine how hard
that must have been, and what an absolute stand against violence,
(49:07):
which we should equally have for what's going on in
gossip right now. You know, it's a it's an absolute
travesty on all sides. And so you also get these
just incredible moments of defiance and healing and connection that
you know I I certainly will never forget.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, absolutely, that's a great visual to take away. And
you know, I just really appreciate you taking the time
for this. I know it took a while for us
to get the scheduled with my crazy schedule, So really,
I too, my friend, your patience and.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Add one more things before we kind of sign off.
It's just a recognition that the people listening to this,
like you guys, are our future, You as much as
I or Dave are responsible and how the opportunity to
guide our path forwards. And it's not easy to do.
(50:08):
It's not easy to step into the public arena where
people are going to criticize you publicly, where they're going
to cast dispersions and make assumptions and say nasty stuff
on social media or podcasts, and yet it's necessary to
move us forwards, and that is why I do the
(50:29):
work that I do supporting leaders like you with their
internal journeys. You could be outwardly more successful, and we
know that that's not always available to everybody in terms
of finances or time or reputational harm. And so we
are really lucky to start a foundation and launch resources
recently specifically to support you. The Healing Our Politics podcasts,
(50:53):
which I'm sure Dave will linked to in the show notes,
is all about bringing and David is one of them,
the world's best expert forward to take the best of
what they've learned and then translated specifically to support you
and your public service journey, and also to share stories,
like real human stories from other servants who are going
through it, who are struggling, who are dealing with their
(51:13):
own mental health challenges, etc. So you know that you're
not alone, and to build community around that so you.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Don't actually have to be alone.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
That we don't have to feel like we're on the
universal ends of this policy discussion and we just have
to like tough it out or give up like that
doesn't work. There's an opportunity to come together to get
support and it's really like the honor of my life
to be able to do that. And I just want
to finish by saying, like, you are welcome, and you
are one of us. If you see yourself as a
(51:42):
political healer or just a public servant, or just a
citizen who gives a shit, there's a place for you
in this community, and we'd be lucky to have you.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
I love it. Great words to end on. Thank you
so much for your time, and thank you for reminding
all of us something that's been very inspiring to me
that I think I learned from Captain Planet, which is
that any like it's a real throwback, right, but like
any one of us has the ability to change the
world for the better. You know, it just takes one
(52:13):
person with the will to do what needs to be done, right, Like,
there's certain things that just fucking need to be done,
and they're not necessarily enjoyable tasks, but they got to
be done. And the people who really like you and
many of the incredible folks that we work with, we
have had the right mentorship to understand how to execute
(52:38):
on that part of our potential, which is like, literally,
I don't like the I don't like the phrase willpower
as much as I like the power of our will, right,
the power of our intention to execute on how great
we see the world could be in our own vision, right,
which is like burning men being like a micro, a
really great microcausing of that. Everybody's like, right, everybody just
(53:00):
like blossoming in their own way and showing it and
sharing it, right. And it's such a beautiful, incredible, awe inspiring,
joy inspiring, connecting concept that reminds us every single moment
that you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, And they are blossoming and they're growing, but they're
also struggling and fearing and feeling isolated and connected and
that's all part of the human experience. And to have
an impact in the public space does not require you
to know how to do it. It just requires you to
do it exactly Margaret Meade, I think it is her quote,
(53:37):
which I'm sure I'm gonna butcher, is like, never be
surprised that a small group of impassioned citizens can change
the world, because they are the only thing that ever has.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
I love it. Thank you so much, Skippy, really appreciate
you joining us. Can you just let everybody know where
to find you?
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Oh, I can and thank you. I love you, dude.
I so appreciate you and how you show up in
this world and you inspire me truly like daily, like
truly daily stuff. Some of the stuff that you share
on our podcast I use at least weekly. So thank you, Michael, Thanks,
thank you for your kind words. Yeah, you can find
my Instagram is at skippy meserro s k I p
(54:16):
P y m E s I r o W. The
projects the coaching work is at as Elected Leaders collective
dot com. Don't don't be fool, it's not just for
elective leaders. We just desperately are overdue for a name
change Elected Leaders Collective dot com. And then you can
check out the podcast and the community around that at
Healingourpolitics dot com. It's available on all of the major
(54:39):
networks or places that you would listen to a podcast,
I think, and go check it out. There's some good
new stuff, including a new drop today with Jerry Colonna
if you don't know him, and his work is remarkable.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
And we met on the boat together. Yeah, Jerry's awesome.
That'll be a great show. That's a good one. Yeah,
So check that out everyone, and thank you for joining
us and We'll see you next time. Job for now,
Thanks for listening to The Psychedelic Report. Visit us at
the Psychedelic Report dot com. This show is recorded weekly
(55:15):
on Clubhouse with a live audience. The Psychedelic Report was
brought to you by a poly neuroscience and produced by
Future Medicine Media. While I am a doctor, I'm not
your doctor, so please don't take anything you hear on
The Psychedelic Report as personal medical advice because we don't
know you. If you have questions about anything you hear
(55:37):
on this show, please consult with your doctor.
The Psychedelic Reports. Psychedelic drugs have played their part in
America's long strange trip toward an understanding of mind. All
during drugs The Psychedelic News.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Leading physicians, scientists, and experts share their wisdom about psychedelic
medicines and healing.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Fifty years ago, psychedelic drugs were at the center of
America's counterculture. The brightest minds in psychedelic medicine the Psychedelic Report.
We use the kedemy assisted psychotherapy model that happens to
have psychedelic effects that were not predicted when the drug
was first developed. From researchers to investors. I think the
biggest mistake we pat as the culture is the war
(00:38):
of drugs.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So physicians to shamans and non private pioneers psychedelic drugs.
Recent research suggests some of them could have legitimate uses.
The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
lines of this exciting movement, The Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
your host doctor Dave raven I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MDMA assisted therapy.
(01:22):
In the wake of the FDA's disappointing decision where they
did not approve MDMA assisted therapy for PTSD, an article
was published in The New York Times on December sixteenth
entitled Seeking Relief from Brain Injury, some Veterans turned to psychedelics.
Unable to find effective treatments at home, veterans with brain
(01:45):
injury symptoms are going abroad for psychedelics like ibogaine that
are illegal in the US. This has been a major
issue in America where those who have made the ultimate
sacrifice of risking their lives to protect are freedom and
the freedom of all American citizens have struggled to get
adequate treatment for mental health issues upon returning home. The
(02:09):
psychedelic movement is one major example of how we are
not taking good enough care of our veterans, and so
our veterans are taking their care into their own hands.
This article from December sixteenth in The New York Times,
authored by Dave Phillips, does a very nice job of
(02:30):
highlighting the challenges the veterans face in America seeking treatment,
and how the FDA has really done a disservice to
veterans by not making treatments like psychedelic assisted therapy more
available to those suffering from PTSD. This has caused a
(02:51):
tremendous backlash in the community where veterans and others who
have been struggling with PTSD and brain injury as well
well have started to seek treatment more commonly from those
who are untrained or from those providing care in unsupervised,
unregulated environments like overseas environments with medicines and drugs that
(03:16):
are not pharmaceutical grade and not regulated, which ultimately puts
these folks at more risk. Were MDMA assist to therapy
to b FDA cleared veterans would be able to access
these powerful treatments on US soil. To discuss the legalization
(03:39):
of psychedelics, which is a major topic in the news
right now, I'm joined by Skippy Mezsio. Skippy is at
the forefront of political innovation and wellness advocacy as the
founder of the Elected Leaders Collective. He is a certified
master coach, renown facilitator, and mediator, deeply involved in transformative
(04:03):
leadership and community engagement. Skippy also hosts the Healing of
Our Politics podcast on which I appeared recently, which you
should all check out, and serves on the Natural Medicine
Advisory Board and the Aspens Psychedelic Resource Center Board, focusing
on psychedelic healing, education, science, and harm reduction. His measurable
(04:26):
accomplishments include spearheading the Mobilized the Movement initiative and training
leaders in one hundred cities to enact one hundred new
psychedelic laws. Skippy is a seasoned speaker, and his past
roles have profoundly shaped his current initiatives. As the deputy
political director for Illinois and the five State Region in
(04:48):
the Obama for America two thousand and eight campaign, he
played a meaningful role in historic electoral victory. Skippy managed
Jesse White's twenty ten campaign for Secretary of State, a
chief White's largest victory margin. Over a twenty six year
political career on the Aspen City Council, he was instrumental
in launching initiatives that supported local businesses with six million
(05:11):
dollars in aid, creating over six hundred affordable housing units,
and established Aspen's first net zero waste goal by twenty fifty.
As an advocate and organizer, he led an effort to
pass about initiative that resulted in Aspen's highest ever voter
turnout by twenty six percent and evolved housing policy in
(05:31):
a meaningful way. Skippy is truly a remarkable human. Today,
I'm bringing you a conversation that we had back in September,
covering his impressions of the FDA's decision around MDMA assistant therapy,
the political landscape around psychedelic legalization, the attitudes at Burning
Man this year, and much more. Skippy, thank you so
(05:56):
much for joining us today. It's such a pleasure to
have you have my buddy. It's so nice to see you.
Nice to see you too. And you know, I think
a couple of things I wanted to talk to you about,
amongst which are you know, you just got back from
Burning Man, what was the vibe and energy like there?
Given that this was a very very challenging year in
(06:17):
the psychedelic community. We faced lots of setbacks, lots of delays,
and you know, there's a lot of people who are hopeful,
and there's a lot of people who are really having
a hard time. But before we even get to that,
I would love to first get your thoughts as somebody
who's been so active in the psychedelic community at large,
(06:38):
as a representative of the people, right and somebody who
has worked in the Colorado government, Aspen government, and you know,
Aspen in Colorado have these extremely progressive angles on the
way that I that they've addressed psychedelic medicine, psychedelics as medicine,
not just as you know, for recreational use, and I
(06:59):
think that's a really interesting model for all of us
to understand. I'd love to hear more about also what
you have experienced in that environment that we could all
learn from, and then what is coming that's really exciting
as well. And you know, and with that in mind,
let's start out with what do you think about everything
that's been going on in the you know, FDA's disappointing
(07:24):
decision around MBMA assisted therapy.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, I appreciate that, and I appreciate your coverage of it.
That Psychedelic Report has been a big part of my
information gathering around this as well. You know, I think
for me, as a former legislator, I'm always aware of
what I'm not aware of and I think that's really
important that we're not or I'm not making assumptions about
(07:49):
things I don't know, but really trying to get drown
groundshoede source material, layering that with my understanding of process,
but recognizing each process is different. And this has actually
been coming up for me a good amount. I'm currently
in a facilitator training through in Nuopa to be able
to legally deliver you know, psychedelic medicines in what I
(08:10):
would think of as a therapeutic environment. I'm not a doctor,
but a healing environment for folks come you know, January
or on. And I would say within that community, there's
been a lot of my perception fear, a lot of despondency,
(08:31):
a lot of confusion, and a lot of shock. And
the shock is the one that really gets me because
having been involved in a public process for a long time,
a denial of something game changing on round one is
not shocking. It's the expectation, right. We have to think
about the incentive structures that are there and then also
(08:53):
the publicly reinforcing container in which these decisions are made
for people that don't have a lived experience, who don't
have a tangential experience of someone else, like we can
forget as people who have been in the psychedelic ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I mean, what was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It like for you as a listener the first time
you ever tried a psychedelic of any kind. I know,
for me it was really scary.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I had all.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Kinds of stories. I was sure until I was probably
twenty something that acid and heroin are the two things
that you never do because you will instantly become addicted
and you will die. And the fact that those two
things can't happen at the same didn't matter. That's what
was going to happen to me. And I really felt
(09:39):
that way, And so I think we can forget that
for people who are making these decisions and the you know,
their social world does not provide, you know, alternative reality
of what these medicines can do. We're asking them to
take on a lot of perceived reputational risks. And as
(10:01):
a legislator, I can't tell you the number of times
that I have seen something that is like, deeply meaningful
and important that stands to have public benefit come forward
that makes perfect sense to me get rejected out of hand,
but then it comes back a second or third time.
And sometimes nothing changes and it gets accepted because it
just takes time for these things to work through the
gears of a public process in which the decision makers
(10:23):
are really in the panopticon. And so what I've been
trying to remind folks of who asked me this is
this process didn't start two years ago or four years
ago when you first heard of it. It's almost forty
years ago. This process is older than me. You know.
I've had conversations with Rick and I'll get some of
(10:44):
the details wrong on our podcast, the Healing Our Politics podcast,
And I mean it was I think twenty seven years
before the first trial even starts with seven or eight rejections.
So what I remind people of is this is a
long road. The people that got us here have had
more endurance and follow through than I could ever imagine happening.
(11:08):
I can't imagine better people to continue this forward. And
when this gets approved, and I do believe it will
get approved, we will look back at this moment as
a speed bump, but we will do so because we
chose to use this moment to double down on our
efforts to meet people who don't understand where this is
(11:31):
coming from. Where this is new with kindness and compassion
and curiosity, that we didn't demonize them and enemy them
and then create a conflict that creates more resistance for us,
but actually engages them and brings them into the circle
of trust and advocacy and expands the psychedelic universe as
a response. So, you know, to me, this is a
(11:55):
not surprising b It's our reality, and it's one that
will have a tremendous amount of harm for some very
real humans right now. And it's our responsibility to use
this challenge, to use this setback to move the movement forward,
just as you would with a challenging experience in your
own psychedelic experience. I think we have to trade it
(12:17):
that way.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I agree. I think that's an extremely thoughtful perspective to
look at this through. You know, at least for me
hearing you describe it in that way, it provides like
clarity to the lens that I'm looking at the situation through,
which is which is really great. And so I'm so
glad that we get to have this conversation. One thing
(12:39):
that troubles me about what has happened in this current situation,
And you know, I think that it's quite unprecedented that.
Not that the FDA denied it, that's not surprising, but
the way the manner in which this was, this whole
thing was conducted was alarming because as an outside group
(13:01):
was clearly influencing the FDA's decision by writing these letters
that they have you know, now openly published, so like
there's no secrets here, like they have said that they
were communicating to do this with the FDA, and the
media hasn't really the mainstream media and the media at
large just hasn't really talked about this, but they have
talked about MDMA in a way that is very damning
(13:23):
and the way that they convey the decision that was made.
You know, there's very very few articles that are talking
about how this treatment is literally life saving and really
could revolutionize mental health, which is the truth based on
the results of the trials, of which the last one,
I believe, was named one of the most top one
(13:44):
hundred important publications in the last one hundred years of
science by Science magazine. Right, so this is Science Journals,
so it's like a top tier journal in the world,
and these are this is known that the results are
so good. So to your point, we are going to
get it over the line. The good news is it's
going to be available at some point. The bad news
is we don't know when now because of the barriers
(14:04):
that are in place that will cause a aise. But
it will get through because the results are too good
for it not to get through.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And yeah, also it does offer that, you know, this
doesn't exist in a silo in a strange way, and
this is this is just my hypothesis based on going
through a lot of other, you know, kind of laterally
related legislative processes. This failure also increases the likelihood of
(14:30):
success of adjacent therapies, whether those are with psychedelic mushrooms,
et cetera, which are currently in trials under review and
coming forward sooner than this will come back. So we
also have to remember that. And you know, it's an
unfortunate truth of the universe whether and you know this,
whether you're an entrepreneur or you're passing a law, being
(14:52):
first is not always best in terms of your personal success. Right,
Like Apple and IBM weren't the first computer products. It
takes some time. So I agree with you with an exception,
which is ketymine, right, Is MDMA really the first Or
has ketamine been a legal psychedelic medicine that only started
(15:15):
being used for its psychedelic effects in large scale in
the early late nineties early two thousands. Wasn't that the
first FDA cleared or at least asketmine theer version? Wasn't
that the first FDA cleared psychedelic like five years ago
or something like that? Like why are we so resistant
as a culture?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Like I get that change in government is inherently resistant,
but like, do you think that the media's representation of
what's going on is doing a disservice to this movement
to get these groundbreaking therapeutic treatments out to all the
people who are suffering from millions of people suffering from
(15:52):
these you know, very hard to treatmental illnesses. Like is
the media serving the cause of getting people care and
access to this treatment or do you feel like what
they're doing is actually harmful.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I will not make the claim that I have a
full scope and understanding of everything that is or isn't
being written.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, of course does just your impressions, Like what is
the vibe you get when you see what's being conveyed
in the media.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Everyone who's listening is going to have heard of different
subsection of articles, et cetera. So I can't I can't
answer that question from a qualified, honest place. What I
can tell you is, and you know, we just had
a doctor Diana Smith on the Are you familiar with her?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
On our podcast?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
She just wrote a book called Remaking the Space between Us,
and it's you know, effectively, the thesis is like to
fix our politics. It's not about policy, it's about relationships.
And she focuses a lot on media and what she
talks about, which which I think I agree with, is
the media is a business and it focuses not on
(16:57):
what is right or wrong. Certainly, if we look at
say human outcomes around education or lifespan or a number
of things, over the last one hundred years, there have
been wild improvements, but you never read that in the paper.
You read, you know, somebody got hit by a car
yesterday and there.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Was a shooting.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And so I think the general predisposition of the media
is towards sensationalism as opposed to objective truth. And I
think that the psychedelic world has benefited from that. For
a long time, there was a lot of positive articles
about studies and stuff when that was new, etc. Now
(17:37):
that there's an opportunity for a shift, I think the
more sensational thing to report is the downside. And I
think many of us probably predicted this would come at
some point if we had a rational mindset, And so
now we're seeing it and it feels really different and
it feels unfair as a result of that. Partially that's
true based on the evidence of the studies, but part
(17:58):
of it is also you know, seeing or feeling it
in contrast to what we have.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Become used to.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The No Rules podcast, the first episode was all about,
you know, referees and the move to autumn. I don't
know what this thing like instant replay and cameras in
that and when they made that shift. According to that
podcast and Michael Lewis's writings on this, it made the
objectivity of calls and professional sports better. But the fans
(18:28):
didn't like it, and who liked it the least were
the star athletes, who, unbeknownst to them, had been getting
referential treatment and now they weren't right. And so I
do think there's this also this element of we've been
getting really great press and now we're kind of feeling
what others have felt and that can feel really hurtful.
I don't know if that quite answers your question. But
(18:49):
doctor Smith, what Diana suggests is it's up to us
to take ownership of our media environment as well. It's
up to us to question the since sational bias of media.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Not just up to us, but like and should be
taught as like a mandatory function of humans. Right, is
that you should question information coming in.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I couldn't agree more so.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a challenging moment in
terms of what is in the press, but I think
there's some larger dynamics going on.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah. I think that's you know, the point is well
taken given you know, you follow the money and you
usually can figure out what is motivating different parties to
make different decisions. Right, Sensationalism and particularly sensationalizing fear is
something that the mainstream media is doing for a very
very long time to make money. You're listening to the
(19:43):
Psychedelic Report. I think the main point that you made
that kind of got I want to make sure to
bring back up to emphasize is the idea that one
of the unfortunate side effects that we are likely to
see from the FDA's decision on MBMA assisted therapy is
that many of the other clinical approvals of psychedelic medicines
(20:06):
will likely be delayed or face other challenges that are
more similar to what MDMA assistet therapy has faced, in
large part because a lot of those clinical trials were
conducted in a way that was modeled directly after the
MAPS trials, because the MAPS trials had been conducted very
well under a high degree of rigor. So you know,
I think a lot of these groups were doing similar
(20:29):
study tactics and behaviors. So you know, there may be
a lot of challenges, and I think it's important for
people to understand that these decisions that get made have
a much wider reaching impact on the field.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I mean we'll only know
what we know when it happens. I think two things
can be true at the same time that seem to
be contrary on one hand, and you talked about this
with John Lubecki on your last podcast. Opponents of anything
are watching for playbooks that work, and so we are
likely to see the repetition or the increase of similar
(21:06):
types of attacks on future applications. I think that's that's
pretty likely, and so that will hamper, especially if the
press is now looking for those things and picking up
on them, will hamper the opportunity of those things to
move forward in a streamline way. I will also say that,
and I'll give just you know, a very local example
(21:26):
that anyone who's ever been through a land news zoning
process has. Right, Like in any community that is anti development,
whether you're a small mountain town or you're San Francisco,
you're a big city, people like to find reasons in
the code to deny things that you know, we can't
build this child center because there's just not enough parking.
(21:48):
Parking is never really the issue, but it is something
that's used to interject in the process, and people pick
up on that, and so in the next hearing they
come back and they say the same thing about parking.
But what I have a r is people in decision
making roles are very often queued into what's really going
on and what that strategy is. And if there is
(22:09):
evidence in rationale for an approval of something, you will
see the goalpost move. So the two spaces that were
the reason we couldn't do it, next time, maybe it
has to.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Be five or ten.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And so there is sort of a normalization around those
counter arguments as well that actually has them become less
significant over time. And that's sort of what I was
talking about about this failure potentially, you know, greasing the wheel,
so to speak, for future approvals, is those same levels
of critique now that they've been engaged out in the open,
(22:42):
they've been discussed. Counterexamples have come up because people listening
to this podcast have taken the effort and the interest
to do that to educate others to show up more
forcefully at a future hearing in the ways that are
permitted and allowed to them. You know, I don't necessarily
see that those things generally compound. They tend to lessen
over time. So I think it's a bit of both.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I completely agree, and you know, I think that's another
you know, it's a great way to think about this situation,
and I thank you for sharing that perspective to switch
gears for a moment. One of the things that you
have been working on that I find very interesting is
the Colorado psychedelic movement and where that interfaces with Colorado
(23:24):
politics like an Aspen and as we mentioned earlier. You know,
Colorado is one particular state that has set a very
interesting example for psychedelics and bringing psychedelics as medicine into
the community. Organ is another state that's been trying to
do that has had a lot of challenges. That being said,
(23:44):
can you talk a little bit about you know, what's
been happening in the Colorado scene that's been so progressive
and exciting for the psychedelic movement and Aspens specifically, since
you know that's where you were, and then we can
talk about what's coming.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And so I just also want to be super clear
about what I can and can't talk about and why,
and the why is always so that this process is successful.
So I did, as a sitting city council person in Aspen, Colorado,
having had healing experiences with psychedelic medicines myself that not
only improve my life, my well being, my mental health,
(24:20):
but also my leadership in those roles, suggested that Aspen,
which has a very progressive history around drug policy. On Raus,
Thompson famously loses by a couple of votes for mayor,
and the people that followed were many of the people
that I got to interact with early in my time
of service, and sadly we're kind of losing the last
of them with just the generational shift, but that a
(24:43):
town who has that history, has that pre existing culture,
and who has four times the national suicide rate should
be looking at every possible opportunity of healing out there.
And as a result of those comments, we put together
a community led working group which I facilitated. I didn't
(25:06):
lead very specifically, I helped facilitate. And there's some really
amazing leaders who came up from that. Martha hammil Laura
Betty who now run the Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center and
put on the Aspen Psychedelic Symposium and do work around
the country on psychedelic policy and harm reduction and training.
(25:27):
And Isaac Flanagan, who has been living in Ukraine doing
work on the front lines and trying to get not
just tools and healing modalities, but tools of victory to troops.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
On the front line.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And what we were able to put together was, you know,
as far as I know, the first municipal level model
for the therapeutic delivery of psychedelic medicines in the country.
And we did that with support of people who came
before us, as we always do. Graham Boyd, who you
know and had helped us with our policy framework, and
(26:05):
some of his legal team, Kevin Matthews who passed the
first psychedelic reform in the country with a large group
out of Denver, Melissa Lavasani out of d C. So
it was just amazing to see the relationality and camaraderie
in support of the psychedelic universe. And then to your point,
we took this longer community based approach because we wanted
(26:26):
something that really worked and responded to the need. And
we kind of got beat to the punch by Prop
One twenty two in which the Colorado voters adopted the
Natural Medicine Act, and that is a piece of legislation
that provides for kind of two paths to psychedelic use.
(26:47):
And I guess this is where I interjected to share
what I can and can't share. I can talk about
the Act, but I am I'm on as you mentioned,
the Governor's appointed board of fifteen people creating the regulatory
framework from within that I can't talk about the specific
policy work that we're doing. Those are all public meetings.
You can go to them. And the reason that I
can't talk about it. Here is to get the policy right,
(27:11):
two things have to happen. You actually have to have
a right policy, and you have to have public trust.
So to have public trust, we want to make sure
that everyone is in the conversation, that those conversations are public,
that information is freely shared, that it's the same information
for all decision makers. And what I can say is,
I've been through a lot of public processes and this
(27:32):
is by far the best one that I've ever experienced,
and so I want to honor that and welcome people
to and you could probably put in the show notes.
I can give you an email for a staffer so
that if people do want to have input, they want
to come give back for testimony, they want to offer
direct feedback on proposed or promulgated rules, they have an
avenue to do that. But that's the appropriate place for that.
(27:56):
So with that said, Natural Medicine Act allows for two
ways to access psychedelic medicines. One is what's considered personal use.
That's already in place, that happened quite a while ago,
and that allows for individuals to grow hold and use
medicines within their own life. But it does not allow
(28:19):
for the exchange of money, the exchange of services, the
transport of those medicines, etc. All of those things are
reserved for what is called the regulated market, and so
we've been in a process of rulemaking creating a framework
for the regulated delivery of those medicines. And you could
(28:41):
think of that as facilitated co facilitated therapeutic healing, coaching,
indigenous like a lot of these other kind of useforms
that are more structured and could involve the exchange of
money for services. Those fall into the regulated market. And
(29:01):
so we're standing up an entire framework from A to B,
soup to nuts within a year. That's never happened to
my knowledge. In the state of Colorado, I think there
are over thirty state boards, and my understanding unverified, but
I believe I heard this from a staff or is
our single board was over a third of total man
hours last year for all of those boards. So it's
(29:24):
been a heavy lift. The first year is psilocybin only,
and then the second year the law allows for it
but does not require the expansion to include other medicines
which include a broader scope of psilocybin or silasin containing compounds,
DMT containing compounds mescaline containing compounds, with the exclusion of
(29:45):
peyote for Native American rights and ecological reasons. I believe
that also would include some other things. It does not
include synthetics at this point, although that's a conversation that
could happen we find ourselves in that process. The initial
rules are published, they are approved, they are promulgated, they
(30:07):
are on the state website. People can check those out.
There are already a number of training facilities that will
be training facilitators that have been approved. There are others
in the pipeline and there will be additional releases over
the coming months around facilitator training, licensing, healing centers, et cetera.
(30:29):
To be ready for service delivery January one, and then
the potential expansion thereafter.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Wow, that is such an impressive amount of work.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
That's a lot, but it's wildly I mean, yeah, the
millennia of work that has been done by folks to
allow for these medicines to reach people is just awe
inspiring and to be able to play some very small role,
some link in the chain, as Rick always says, to
continue to move these opportunities for healing and connection forwar.
(31:04):
It is just just an incredible honor.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Absolutely. You know. The thing that interests me most about
this topic and how much work is being done in
the state of Colorado that's so exciting. On the forefront
really of this movement, you know, is basically this topic
that you and I have discussed before, maybe a couple
times now, which is that there is a perceived gap
(31:30):
or rivalry perhaps between folks who are heavy proponents of
decriminalization of psychedelics and and who are mostly recreational users
for the large part, and then the other side, which
is legalization, which has no problem with d crim but
(31:52):
wants to make sure that the legalization goes through accordingly,
because legalization makes it completely legal, so it is all
of dcrem plus allows doctors to provide it to patients
and therapists illlegally prevented to patients, and creates research opportunities
that open up. So there's a lot of obvious benefits
to the legalization process. But there's a lot of folks
who are focused on and who are sort of in
(32:13):
some ways, you know, radically focused on the decriminalization over all.
Else that seems to be some part of what was
motivating this outside group symposia in their contact with the
FDA to basically delay and BNA assisted therapy can getting
legally approved because they're all focused on d CRIM and
(32:35):
they think d CRIM should be the focus for everyone.
So I'm curious as somebody who has who is you
know involved in both sides of it? Have you seen
any of this as well over the last couple of years,
and how do you think this is being handled in Colorado?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
And there's so many different ways that I could go
with that. Any movement, in my observation of great social
change requires people with perspectives on both polls and everywhere
in between. The social rights movement required MLK and Malcolm X.
(33:15):
I think this is the nature of change and the
nature of humanity.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
But like the question, isn't it bipolar? Though, like when
we're actually have the same goals?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Right? Let me let me continue. I think I think
that that is the reality. We have to exist within
our reality. And regardless of where you fall on that spectrum,
I think it's your responsibility to ask, do I want
to be right or do I want to be successful?
(33:48):
Do I want this to be about victory or outcomes?
And to be honest as a coach, do I want
this to be about me?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Or do I want me?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
This to be about the outcomes? And I think it's
all of our responsibility to ask those things and to
try to meet the other side with understanding and compassion
and the opportunity to collaborate, and to recognize that not
(34:18):
one of us, despite whatever we may think, knows, we
just don't know. We can't predict the future, we don't
know what's in other people's heads. And our responsibility is
to move this forward as collaboratively, constructively, and collectively as
(34:39):
we can. That doesn't mean we can't have rigorous debates,
It doesn't mean that we can't disagree. Those things are great,
we should do those things. But if there is any
movement that has existed that should be able to move
past the petty bullshit and the caricacter attack and the
demonization of one another, it should be those in the
(35:01):
psychedelic movement. And if you can't do that, maybe you
should question whether these medicines are working the way that
you think that they are. Right, that's my personal opinion,
And yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Maybe you're maybe you're not using them properly. Yeah, the
outcomes that you could be getting of such ventualization right, Yeah,
that's right, which also, you know, for for some on
somewhere on that spectrum would be a data point of
how these medicines should be or should not be administered.
You're listening to the psychedelic report and also recognizing people
(35:35):
have different base rationale for why these medicines should be available. Now,
for some people it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Is really for the opportunity to heal. For others, this
is simply an argument of personal freedom. And until you
can openly disclose and talk about where you're coming from,
it's hard to find a workable place. But if you
see the opposing side of anything as an enemy to demonize,
(36:01):
then it is within yourself that you will be most
benefited by looking. That's been my experience.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I think that makes a lot of sense, you know.
I think part of what psychedelic medicines teach our patients
and that we learn in our trainings is like one
of the core sentiments, going back to your comment about
maybe if you feel more divided from your fellow person
and from your community and you're using medicine, perhaps you're
(36:30):
not using medicine, right, Like when the single biggest sentiment,
one of the first biggest, most important sentiments that every
single one of our patients, we make sure that they
realize this on their own. We set up the environment
for them to recognize and feel this on their own
in their experience. Is like two or three major things
takeaways right from their first Ketemine experiences with therapy. It's
(36:55):
we have more in common than we do different. Yeah, right,
We're all human first. We're all human first, and we
have more in common than we do different. So if
we have more in common than we do different, then
we can always work together to find a middle ground
before we blow every single thing like sky high.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Right, absolutely, I mean this is I mean, look, this
is what I do for a living, This is what
I do professionally. This is what I do as a leader.
Now is I help leaders like you listening heal your communities.
We do that by doing the inner work. And one
of the one of the tenants of that work is
sort of the bigger the reaction, the bigger the trigger,
(37:36):
the bigger the opportunity, like the bigger the arrow inwards.
These reactions are life in the universe's way of telling
us where we can apply the work to better ourselves.
But what I can promise you is that will not
inhibit you from being successful. That will make you more successful. Right,
If we think about the leaders that we almost universally
(37:59):
lion eze, whether that's Nelson Mandela or Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt,
or Winston Churchill, these are folks who were leaders in
their younger life. They were leaders with passion, they were
leaders with ferocity. They were leaders of a claim that
(38:19):
people saw benefiting. But the commonality amongst them is they
had very severe struggle somewhere in the middle of their life.
Either they were locked up for twenty eight years, they
experienced polio, they had severe depression, and instead of being
taken out by those things, they use those things to
look inward. They built understanding of self and from that
(38:42):
place then they were able to empathize with those who
are not like them. They were able to expand their
circle of understanding. And it was from that place that
they were then able to go out and do the
work of bridging and healing externality, bringing people into together
in ways that were perhaps imperfect but fundamentally change the
(39:04):
course of history. And we lionize those people for that.
They become legendary for that. So yeah, it's slower. Yeah,
it's fucking hard. I don't know if I can swear
on your podcast. That's where mind. But that is how
you become a transformational leader is by bringing in those
who differ with you, having enough security and self confidence
(39:27):
in yourself to be able to hear opposing views, to
hold things in contest, to have dissonance in your own mind,
and so you know, if you're feeling these things, great,
so have I I'm sure Dave has too.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
We all have. We're Humanness is normal. The question is
what do you want to do with it?
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Not for the benefit of yourself, but for the benefit
of all of us. And I think we have a
special opportunity within the psychedelic movement to really model that
for our broader politics.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah, I think that's a great that's a great point.
We as we say right, like as above, so below,
you heal yourself by doing the work to bring all
the parts of yourself together as one person, and that
reflects outward into the community in the way that we
build relationships and make sure that everybody remembers always that
(40:17):
you know, one of the most important rules of being
human is that we're all human first. We always wants
needs and desires.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, can I make this take it back to the
Aspen process to make it a little more specific about
what this might look like in real life. And then
I want to ask you about burning Man before you
wrap up good, because I was really disappointed we didn't
talk about that. So, you know, in the Aspen process,
it was a totally open call, right, everybody was welcome,
and we really took the time to hear where everyone
(40:45):
was coming from and not just their policy prescriptions, but
why they care about this. What's their lived experience. Did
they have a friend whose life was saved, They have
a personal experience with psychedelic medicines, did they you know,
read a Michael Pollan article like, we took the ten
to get to know each other's humans first, to learn
our motivations so that we're not just jumping down each
other's throat around disagreement. And we heard from everybody, and
(41:07):
we had a very wide spectrum of what people did
or didn't want to do, and then we had some
you know, facilitated conversations where everybody really got to have
a voice and we came to consensus. Consensus is something
you can live with. It's not exactly what you want.
And some people couldn't live with that, and some people said, hey,
I'm a psychotherapist and this is a little too lenient
(41:30):
for me. I'm concerned about my license, Like I just
don't think that I can support this. Someone else said, hey,
I you know, my belief is that this is a
human rights issue, that we should have fundamental freedoms and
if there's going to be any restriction, like I can't
in my constitution get behind this. And our response wasn't like, well,
fuck you, you're an asshole. We'll get out of here.
It was like, we totally get that, we hear you,
(41:52):
we understand this is what's important to you, and this
is where we are to move something forward. And we
just want you to know that we have heard what
you said. We've incre grated it the best we can.
And if you have a change of heart at any point,
or you just want to come back and you're not
even going to vote for this thing, but you want
to continue to have influence, like this door is open,
you are welcome here. And that worked as not a kill.
(42:14):
It's a genuine invitation. With that I did too, but
you know it's a genuine invitation and that's the perspective
and the actions we took that I think are quite effective.
And you know, I mentioned Kevin Matthews. Kevin Matthews and
a large group of people remarkably in twenty nineteen past
(42:36):
the first psilocybin reform d crim in Denver at a
time when nobody thought this was possible and people were
laughing rather than even campaigning against them in many cases.
But you know, Kevin had a vision that he came
to me with a couple of years ago for something
called mobilize the movement, and so I helped him bring
(42:56):
this vision forward. We did a full day training at
Psychologic Science twenty three that kicked it off. But Kevin
and MTM are training one hundred leaders in one hundred
cities to pass one hundred new psychedelic laws, and part
and parcel to that is not prescribing what those laws are.
It's recognizing that every community is different, that what's possible
(43:18):
in one place is not possible in another, what's beneficial
in one place might not be beneficial in the same
way in another, and that we should lean into and
accept the laboratory of democracy that we have, allow results
to come forward and learn as we go, and not
require or let perfection be the enemy of the possible,
(43:40):
not allow divergent views around this to make one of
us right or wrong, but simply to make space for
all of it, and then let the evidence demonstrate what
we want and trust that we.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
All want to be well.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
We all want to heal, We all want to be
loved and to love, to connect and be together, and
we will, as human organisms naturally matriculate to the things
that are working.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
And we want to feel good.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
We want to feel good. And let it be known
that love more is on the shirt that I look
at it, David, and I do want to love more
and I want to be loved more. We can take
a moment and pause, to take a breath and find
that trust in our fellow human beings as we would
want them to trust in us.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah. Absolutely, And with that, I think it's a perfect
segue into your experience at Burning Man this year, because
these are a lot of the sentiments you just described
so eloquently, are you know, the core philosophies of Burning
Man and really at the heart of this experience And
I'm curious give it all the challenges the psychedelic community
(44:43):
has faced this year. What was the tone of Burning Man?
How was it overall?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, well, one, we were genuinely bummed that you and
Catherine weren't there.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
That was our main that was what we went in with.
So hopefully next year. I'm also very biased. I got
engaged on Plia this year, which.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Is very exciting. Thank you, so exciting. So that was
pretty remarkable in so many ways. I was the best
burn I've ever had. I kind of say that every time.
I think a lot of us that have been going
for a while, certainly, I mean, I met a guy
who was I think eighty five this year, was at
(45:22):
his twenty ninth burn, who just built a brand new
art car.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
He's eighty five, and.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
He's driving around on a thirty foot tall Howe on stilt,
so with the biggest smile on his face, and his
son is there, and it's you know, it's just it's remarkable,
right like what people do and are. But our hope,
candidly and sorry if I'm excluding you from the club,
is that a year of intense heat and a year
(45:49):
of rain would mean that some of the folks who
were drawn to Burning Man not to be participatory, but
to be extracting images for personal benefit would be less
encouraged to go and maybe we were looking for that,
but that's kind of what we experienced. There was a
few less people there and we were kind of just
back in it together and that felt really good. But yeah,
(46:12):
the lingering shadow of the like Ghost decision was also there.
I mean, you know, I had those conversations. I tried
to not super effectively, the late night conversation, like convey
my appreciation to some of the folks on the maps,
like Ghost Team, who I can't imagine how hard that
(46:35):
is for them, you know, just to offer gratitude for
their effort. But you know, that feeling is there too.
But I can't leave the ply in order to people
that I went with that I know, can't leave without
feeling rejuvenated and recharged in the just unbelievable possibility and
(46:59):
create activity of the human spirit, and to feel so
lucky for the wild presentation of reality in which on
this tiny blue dot floating through empty space at thousands
of miles an hour on an average arm of an
average spiral universe galaxy, you know, in the middle of nothing,
(47:22):
that somehow life decided to constitute and I happened to
be born at the moment within that lifespan that we
could decide to like cheaply make LEDs to turn an
old bus into a forty foot tall jellyfish that plays music,
Like what in the world is that? But how lucky
I am to get to see.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
It, which makes me real jealous, Oh my god. But
also school bus and the jellyfish, school.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Bus, you name it, it's out there.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Do you lise to me?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
But there's also such solemn and deep moments I was
I was out at there was an art piece called
We Will Dance Again. And you know, October seventh, hundreds
of concertgoers and a peace festival in the southern desert
and the Negev of Israel were murdered viciously, and some
(48:19):
of the people that were at that event, and you know,
has got to be one of the most astounding protests
of the human spirit. Come back to Burning Man and
rebuild a central art piece from there identically, and put
memorials to those who lost their lives, and do a
ceremony for those who lost their lives while celebrating peace,
(48:44):
and then turn, at the moment that the attack starts
into a dance party with the same DJ set that
was playing when it happened. I can't imagine how hard
that must have been, and what an absolute stand against violence,
(49:07):
which we should equally have for what's going on in
gossip right now. You know, it's a it's an absolute
travesty on all sides. And so you also get these
just incredible moments of defiance and healing and connection that
you know I I certainly will never forget.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, absolutely, that's a great visual to take away. And
you know, I just really appreciate you taking the time
for this. I know it took a while for us
to get the scheduled with my crazy schedule, So really,
I too, my friend, your patience and.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Add one more things before we kind of sign off.
It's just a recognition that the people listening to this,
like you guys, are our future, You as much as
I or Dave are responsible and how the opportunity to
guide our path forwards. And it's not easy to do.
(50:08):
It's not easy to step into the public arena where
people are going to criticize you publicly, where they're going
to cast dispersions and make assumptions and say nasty stuff
on social media or podcasts, and yet it's necessary to
move us forwards, and that is why I do the
(50:29):
work that I do supporting leaders like you with their
internal journeys. You could be outwardly more successful, and we
know that that's not always available to everybody in terms
of finances or time or reputational harm. And so we
are really lucky to start a foundation and launch resources
recently specifically to support you. The Healing Our Politics podcasts,
(50:53):
which I'm sure Dave will linked to in the show notes,
is all about bringing and David is one of them,
the world's best expert forward to take the best of
what they've learned and then translated specifically to support you
and your public service journey, and also to share stories,
like real human stories from other servants who are going
through it, who are struggling, who are dealing with their
(51:13):
own mental health challenges, etc. So you know that you're
not alone, and to build community around that so you.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Don't actually have to be alone.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
That we don't have to feel like we're on the
universal ends of this policy discussion and we just have
to like tough it out or give up like that
doesn't work. There's an opportunity to come together to get
support and it's really like the honor of my life
to be able to do that. And I just want
to finish by saying, like, you are welcome, and you
are one of us. If you see yourself as a
(51:42):
political healer or just a public servant, or just a
citizen who gives a shit, there's a place for you
in this community, and we'd be lucky to have you.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
I love it. Great words to end on. Thank you
so much for your time, and thank you for reminding
all of us something that's been very inspiring to me
that I think I learned from Captain Planet, which is
that any like it's a real throwback, right, but like
any one of us has the ability to change the
world for the better. You know, it just takes one
(52:13):
person with the will to do what needs to be done, right, Like,
there's certain things that just fucking need to be done,
and they're not necessarily enjoyable tasks, but they got to
be done. And the people who really like you and
many of the incredible folks that we work with, we
have had the right mentorship to understand how to execute
(52:38):
on that part of our potential, which is like, literally,
I don't like the I don't like the phrase willpower
as much as I like the power of our will, right,
the power of our intention to execute on how great
we see the world could be in our own vision, right,
which is like burning men being like a micro, a
really great microcausing of that. Everybody's like, right, everybody just
(53:00):
like blossoming in their own way and showing it and
sharing it, right. And it's such a beautiful, incredible, awe inspiring,
joy inspiring, connecting concept that reminds us every single moment
that you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, And they are blossoming and they're growing, but they're
also struggling and fearing and feeling isolated and connected and
that's all part of the human experience. And to have
an impact in the public space does not require you
to know how to do it. It just requires you to
do it exactly Margaret Meade, I think it is her quote,
(53:37):
which I'm sure I'm gonna butcher, is like, never be
surprised that a small group of impassioned citizens can change
the world, because they are the only thing that ever has.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
I love it. Thank you so much, Skippy, really appreciate
you joining us. Can you just let everybody know where
to find you?
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Oh, I can and thank you. I love you, dude.
I so appreciate you and how you show up in
this world and you inspire me truly like daily, like
truly daily stuff. Some of the stuff that you share
on our podcast I use at least weekly. So thank you, Michael, Thanks,
thank you for your kind words. Yeah, you can find
my Instagram is at skippy meserro s k I p
(54:16):
P y m E s I r o W. The
projects the coaching work is at as Elected Leaders collective
dot com. Don't don't be fool, it's not just for
elective leaders. We just desperately are overdue for a name
change Elected Leaders Collective dot com. And then you can
check out the podcast and the community around that at
Healingourpolitics dot com. It's available on all of the major
(54:39):
networks or places that you would listen to a podcast,
I think, and go check it out. There's some good
new stuff, including a new drop today with Jerry Colonna
if you don't know him, and his work is remarkable.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
And we met on the boat together. Yeah, Jerry's awesome.
That'll be a great show. That's a good one. Yeah,
So check that out everyone, and thank you for joining
us and We'll see you next time. Job for now,
Thanks for listening to The Psychedelic Report. Visit us at
the Psychedelic Report dot com. This show is recorded weekly
(55:15):
on Clubhouse with a live audience. The Psychedelic Report was
brought to you by a poly neuroscience and produced by
Future Medicine Media. While I am a doctor, I'm not
your doctor, so please don't take anything you hear on
The Psychedelic Report as personal medical advice because we don't
know you. If you have questions about anything you hear
(55:37):
on this show, please consult with your doctor.
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