The Bucket-Brigade On The Path To Redemption with Jamie Wheal

In this episode, Dr. Dave Rabin sits down with Jamie Wheal, bestselling author of Stealing Fire, and celebrated author of Recapture the Rapture, to explore the evolving role of psychedelics in society, from their historical significance in the 1960s counterculture to their emerging therapeutic applications today. They deep dive into consciousness, psychedelics, the concept of ‘rapture’, the neuroscience of courage, and insights from Eric Kandel on how evolutionary learning mechanisms shape all decision-making. Examining the contrast between ancient plant medicine traditions and modern high-potency psychedelics, they highlight the challenges of integration, the risks of dependency, and the importance of preparation and support in therapeutic settings. They also address the commodification of psychedelics, the necessity of a sacramental approach, and the deeper spiritual and communal significance of these substances. Ultimately, they emphasize self-discovery, the acceptance of uncertainty, and the requirement for unity and responsible engagement with psychedelics to foster healing and collective transformation.

• Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/04/health/fda-mdma-psychedelic-therapy-psymposia.html
• Book: https://www.recapturetherapture.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiewheal/
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrDavidRabin
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdavidrabin
• Web: https://www.drdave.io/

The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku: https://brianmuraresku.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Psychedelic Reports. Psychedelic drugs have played their part in
America's long strange trip toward an understanding of mind.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
All during drugs The Psychedelic News.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Leading physicians, scientists, and experts share their wisdom about psychedelic
medicines and healing.

Speaker 4 (00:16):
Fifty years ago, psychedelic drugs were at the center of
America's counterculture.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
The brightest minds in psychedelic medicine the Psychedelic Report.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
We use the kedemy assisted psychotherapy model that happens to
have psychedelic effects that were not predicted when the drug
was first developed. From researchers to investors. I think the
biggest mistake we pat as the culture is the war
of drugs. So physicians to shamans and non private pioneers
psychedelic drugs. Recent research suggests some of them could have
legitimate uses.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
lines of this exciting movement, The Psychedelic Report.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
your host, doctor Dave Raven. I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MBMA assisted therapy.

(01:22):
Much has transpired since the last episode of the Psychedelic Report.
On a personal note, I now have a brand newborn
at home, which has absorbed quite a bit of my
time in a really nice way. There's no psychedelic experience
quite like looking into the eyes of your newborn child.
On a national level, we now have a new president

(01:44):
who is making moves quickly. We had devastating fires Rekavic
in La displacing so many and leaving even more engulfed
in grief. It should now be clear to everyone that
we are amidst one of the most challenging times we
have ever faced in the history of humanity, and on
top of that, we are more divided and less unified

(02:07):
than ever, despite having more opportunities connect with each other
to find common ground than ever before thanks to technology.
From a psychological and health perspective, nothing is more threatening
to the survival of our species than division. As we
evolved to adapt to stress by working together as one
of our strongest and most valuable survival skills, as a species.

(02:30):
Aside from the recent presidential election, we all witnessed further
evidence of this massive social division with the disappointing August
FDA ruling that denied clearance to MDMA assisted therapy. We
have been covering this debacle regularly since June on the
Psychedelic Report, because well, it seemed like there was something
fishy going on. On February fourth, twenty twenty five, Rachel

(02:55):
Knuer and Andrew Jacobs published a thorough piece in The
New York Times and typelled how a leftist activist group
helped torpedo a psychedelic therapy that surfaces the evidence that
verified our suspicions that the FDA's decision to refuse clearance
of MDMA therapy was intentionally manipulated by false claims made

(03:18):
by a radical anti capitalist advocacy group that calls themselves
Symposia with a p Rachel and Andrews's article details how
Symposia intentionally falsified documents and information about maps MDMA trials
to convince the FDA that the risk was much greater
than it actually is. While we still do not know

(03:41):
exactly what Symposia's motivations were as their leadership have refused
interviews by this host and many others, and refused to
disclose their funding sources. Much of Symposia's leadership has since
resigned due to claims of unethical practices by the organization.
This is concerning for many reasons, but the primary one

(04:01):
is that it demonstrates that our healthcare system and whether
new promising treatments that already have breakthrough status from the
FDA can be completely and utterly undermined by special interest groups,
and that the FDA is not capable of doing their
diligence of critically deciphering scientific evidence to come to an
independent conclusion to protect patients and all Americans and those

(04:26):
who are clearly suffering without adequate treatments available for their condition,
in this case PTSD, which disproportionately affects veterans and vulnerable populations.
This resulted because fear was exploited to divide us, and
this has now delayed legal access to some of the
best treatments we have ever discovered in the field of psychiatry,

(04:50):
including legal access to all psychedelic assisted therapy, for what
appears to be at least another five years. I hesitate
to say it, but as a practicing clinician who is
certified in both MBMA and ketamine assisted therapy and has
studied the history of medicine for quite some time. Preventing
psychedelic medicines from being cleared despite the significant evidence of

(05:14):
how effective and safe they are is like denying clearance
for antibiotics for infection. This is a very significant decision
that has a series of very significant consequences to the public,
including lack of trust and loss of faith of the
healthcare system. I highly recommend you all check out this

(05:36):
recent expose by Rachel Knuer because it is critical that
you know the truth. You can check it out in
the New York Times LinkedIn the show notes. And that
story broke right here on the Psychedelic Reboard several months
before the FDA made their final decision and before the
mainstream news was willing to pick up the story. Too bad,
the FDA wasn't listening to this show. And that brings

(05:59):
me to today. This week, I'm bringing you one of
my favorite interviews ever because it leaves no stone unturned. Today,
I'm joined by the Politzer Prize nominated best selling author
of Stealing Fire and Recapture the rapture Jamie Wheel. Jamie
is the founder of the Flow Genome Project, an international
organization dedicated to the research and training of human performance.

(06:23):
His work and ideas have been covered in The New
York Times, Financial Times, Wired, Entrepreneur, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, inc, Ted,
and many other locations where you likely have seen it.
Jamie Wheel was also our very first guest to kick
off The Psychedelic Report Episode one, and I couldn't be
more excited to have him back. I love this conversation

(06:45):
for so many reasons. The first is it's recorded with
a live audience, which means we get to be joined
by some surprise special guests, including Brian Mirr Rescue, author
of Immortality Key. We also cover everything from here feeling
in medicine, to philosophy, consciousness, psychedelics, and self actualization in

(07:05):
ways that I have never really hurt anyone described before.
And I learned so much from this conversation with Jamie.
And lastly, Jamie just has an incredible way with words,
and so with words being the way that we make
meaning and describe the world, it's really important for us
to update our dialogue and the way that we describe

(07:27):
the world around us, and Jamie provides a really nice
framework for doing that in his new book Recapture the Rapture,
which I highly recommend. Jamie describes rapture as a mindset
and a choice to believe that the world will end
and soon, so I need to protect myself at all costs,

(07:48):
makes us rapturous. This actually describes how many people believe
and act without realizing it. Maybe most people the finite
approach to life that actually accelerate rates oblivion. Or on
the contrary, there's what Jamie describes as the infinite approach
to life to believe that the world and humanity have

(08:09):
hope for a better, brighter future together for the long haul.
The long haul on Earth, the only planet that is
currently known to support human life, the infinite approach to
life and practicing this approach actually decreases our chances of
complete and total destruction by unifying us around a sustainable

(08:29):
future on Earth together. Which team are you on? Is
the way you're living your life, decreasing the ability for
the Earth to support human life or helping nurture the
Earth to support human life. Have you already given up
on humanity or do you still have hope that you
can tap into. Now that you know there is a

(08:51):
choice in the matter, which team will you choose to
be on. It's important to keep in mind that at
this time in human history, we still require the Earth
and the maintenance of the delicate balance of the environment
that is the Earth to survive as a human species. However,
the Earth does not exactly require us for survival. It

(09:13):
was here long before us and will remain long after us.
There are no other planets currently hospitable to humans, and
we are decades off from that at the earliest. I
hope you all enjoy listening to this as much as
we did recording it.

Speaker 5 (09:28):
Jamie.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
It's such a pleasure to have you with us. Thank
you so much for joining us today.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Happy to be here, and yeah, excited to kind of
follow up and try and paint the picture for the
next ten years and see what's up and if it
fits for our time together today. Happy to read a
couple of exits that are specific to psychedelics and their
place in society lately.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
I would love to hear a couple excerpts from you,
and I think our audience would as well.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
It's the end of the world and you know it
and will be Fine. A mutual friend and buddy of ours,
doctor Andrew Chuberman then for the neuroscientists, right, he just
published in Nature this fascinating research project that he and
his lab were doing on the role of courage in
the brain, and specifically they were using mice and they

(10:22):
were creating a looming effect like the shadow of a
hawk above them. And you know, not surprisingly, when a
regular little mouse sees the looming shadow of a bout
of prey, they fucking high tail it undercover, and then
two percent of them once they're safely hiding, then they
thump their tails and act like bosses. And what they
discovered is that the fight flight mechanism is just because

(10:43):
it's rhymes doesn't mean it's right. There's the fight freeze
or the flight freeze mechanism, and then there's this stand
year ground and fight mechanism, and that actually takes place
in the nucleus reunions in the brain. And then when
they stimulated that, it's the very specific region in the
brain that the mice would then actually turn and they'd

(11:05):
basically do the kind of Bruce Lee bring it on thing.
They would turn and they'd thump their tails in open
ground facing their mortal enemy. And then it gets even
more interesting because not only could they do that, you know,
you know that that sort of you know reduction, this
neuro mechanics, you know, push a certain stimulate a brain
region and I get a reflex response. They actually gave

(11:28):
mice the choice in between food and sex. They chose
to have their courage center stimulated. It was literally the
most and that also plays through into human studies, So
you're like, holy shit, you know, at the deepest level
of our being, we are hung wired for courageous action
in the face of overwhelming threat, and we choose it

(11:52):
over food and sex. Would rather be brave than get laid.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Incredible, and that actually reminds me of some of the
work that was very much inspiring to me, which I'm
sure you're familiar with, which is the work of Eric Candell,
you know, who won the Nobel Prize for discovering the
origins of learning and memory. And one of the things
that always stuck out to me about that work that
was so brilliant and incredible was he didn't do that

(12:20):
work first on humans. He did it on three hundred
million year old Iplicia c snails that only have twelve
thousand neurons so that you can isolate the neural pathways
similar to working in a mouse model, but even more simple.
And he showed over the last you know, really it
was like the latter half of the twentieth century that
the core connections in the way that our neurons form

(12:43):
connections the way our brains rewire in response to as
you were saying, threat safety, you know, the opportunities for
acts of courage and to make a decision to stand
and fight versus to flight or fly away, leave or
freeze or or you know, submit. Right, there are all
these these different ways of thinking about this, And what

(13:05):
was so fascinating that Candell showed is the fundamentally same
pathways with which these ancient sea snails learn how to
respond to fearful and safe stimuli are actually preserved evolutionarily
over time all the way through mammals and humans do
the same. Neurotransfers work exactly the same way, no, but

(13:26):
the cells function the same way in response to or
persistent triggers of threat as well as perceived threat and
safety stimuli, which is really fascinating. So, you know, going
back to what you're saying, it's so cool that we
are hardwired for these different abilities.

Speaker 4 (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And you know that that sort of
brings to mind also the sort of you know the
role of the dopamineergic system and how we are also
hard wired to seek novelty, you know, And so what
Robert Sapolski again at Stanford, you know, it talks about
the magic of and that idea that even something that's
pleasurable but becomes routine ceases to be as much fun.

(14:08):
And whether it's new mates or new states or new dates,
like anything we can do that spins the rolette wheel. Again.
We are overtly rewarded for discovery, and you know, you
sort of look at all of this thing you're like,
oh wow, this is a pretty interesting base code for

(14:31):
the origins of life. And now the question is is, like,
how many of those deep survival programs are now running
us off a cliff so they're sort of now paradoxically
undoing us. And then how many of our deep survival
programs can be part of our sort of redemption or salvation, you.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Know, going back to the way that many humans function
in different parts of the world, going back to ancient life.
It's not like people didn't use plant medicine, right, Like
we know ancient people chewed ephedera leaves, We know that
people use kava, We know that people used coca leaves, right,
and these different natural plant and they were much lowered potency,

(15:12):
lowered dose rather than comparing to the significantly isolated extract
that then becomes ten milligrams or thirty milligrams of your
adderall that you take every day. Right, that's like maybe
a thousand times or more what you get in one
efedera leaf without the entourage effect of all the other
plant alkaloids in the epheda. And so it stresses a
modernity in some ways to me seem to be doing

(15:36):
to us is forcing us to strengthen our medicine in
the prescription sense. Now, people who might have chewed e
fed or coca back in the day thousands of years
ago or in native cultures, now when they enter modernity
and they struggle with the stresses of modernity, they have
to take stronger e feda. There are tools that gets
pushed to them because of their personality type. And so

(15:58):
maybe when you'd answered in about your thoughts on psychedelics
and their role, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts
on non psychedelic medicines as well.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
Well, you know, I mean I did a fairly extended
research paper in grad school on this on the role
of psychedelics in the Native American Church in the late
nineteenth century, you know, after Indian removal, right, and just
kind of that sort of sliding scale of what did
it used to take to get us off? Basically through history,
there's this question, right, I mean, and it's been one
of the challenges of trying to find the you know,

(16:28):
origins of soma, the vadas or in kaikion and the
Elustinian mysteries, you know, and when people try or Amanita, mskyia,
you know, all of these things, and people try and
go back and re boot those experiences using that plant
material to the best of our ability, and most of
them are duds. You know, people are sick. There's a

(16:50):
whole bunch of things, and you kind of realize, oh shit,
back before a fully dense, calcified, separate rational ego identity
construct emerged, you know, in the Western tradition and elsewhere
in the sort of last two thousand years with a
huge booster shop, come the French Enlightenment, you know, you've
got Dick cart go and Cogito Ergo silm. Literally, my

(17:12):
cognition is my existence, I think. Yeah, those kinds of
things did not exist prior, and our senses of identities
were far more plastic, elastic, fluid and smeared across multi
generations and rooted in place. So the veil between the world,
I think, was far thinner. And for the most part,
we keep looking for the smoking pharmaceutical gun of the

(17:36):
ancient mysteries, but you throw in days of sleep, deprivation, fasting,
massively dense and weighty, you know, rituals that have been
carried on for perpetuity and eternity. Their entire community called
out and supporting them and led through it, and it
probably didn't take as much to part the veils. And

(17:59):
if you think about pre Columbian indigenous experience in North America,
you know, you know, a warrior could go to a mountain,
surround himself with a circle of stones, and stay there
without eating or sleeping for four days, and the odds
were solid that he would experience a vision of great spirit.

(18:20):
But follow the wars of Indian expansion, the US caverty
the decimation of the buffalo, the collapsing of lifeways, the
removal to reservations in different times and places, cheek by
jile with a ton of suffering people in a horrendous situation,
and suddenly the veil had thickened, and suddenly those folks
had become sussumed by the western fragmented he Goic identity.

(18:44):
And then you have this serendipitous rise of the Paye
de cult from northern Mexico, distributed through the diaspora of
the reservation system on the rail and transported via the
railways in Quantma Paco, and now you have a booster rocket.
So as our rational sense is and our wounding in
our sort of trauma sense, and our dislocation from an

(19:07):
enchanted world became increasingly intense, then the need in order
to be able to escape that gravitational pull via stronger
medicine becomes a necessary counterbalance.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Perhaps I love the way that you described that. I
think that is that is absolutely consistent with observers in
my clinical practice as well. The metaphor of the veil
is such a fascinating one. I think that you chose
because the other side of the metaphor of the veil
is that the veil can be lifted.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
Right, Yeah, absolutely, Now the question is how do we
do it? And can we do it skillfully and gracefully? Yeah,
for sure. And then I mean even implicit than that
is the notion of working through your issues or what
is my state experience? And can I get to my
happy place and then stay there as long as fucking possible?
You know, I mean I think there are structural flaws

(20:00):
even in that approach to the whole. You know, it's
just actually on a call yesterday with Michael Pollan and
a handful of other folks, and you know, he was
just describing again the obvious thing, which is that where
we are with the pharmacological model and the clinical medical
treatment model as well as the recreational model or default
setting that we're kind of experiencing these days, is that

(20:22):
that's an utter anomaly, an aberration, and that the connection
to a spiritual lineage and quite often some very explicit
element of community service, these things are absent. So in fact,
I just kind of scrolled down to a short passage
that speaks to this as ak if I just kind
of read it and then please Yeah, so this this

(20:44):
is from Recapture the rapture, and I gave you a
sideways answer to your question of like, what the fuck's
the book about, But it's basically to say, hey, right now,
we are in the grips of rapture ideologies where everybody
is sort of seeking to drive this off a cliff
to get to redemption for their chosen people. And it
could be a techno utopian rapture like uploading your consciousness

(21:05):
to computers. It can be a fundamentalist religious rapture. It
could be a contemporary conspiracy theory like plandemic or cuanon.
But they all share an underlying structure. And we're having
our collective future decided by one percent fringes on the side.
And the potential answer or response for the rest of

(21:26):
us really states that Yates quote from the Second Coming,
that poem of his. You know, he says whether he says,
the best lack all conviction while the worst are filled
with passionate intensity. And so the question, right, so the
question is, holy fuck, folks, the whack nuts are at
the wheel. How do the best of us, How do

(21:47):
the rest of us reclaim our lowercase rapture, our bliss,
our whole wholeness, our healing, our belonging, our connection. How
do we do that in time to chart a course
for our shared future that works for everyone.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report, that's.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
My blessing and curse. I feel like Melin and a
Sword and the Stone, Like I live backwards from in front,
so I am forever like signposting what's coming with no
idea the life I'm actually living. So I'm a little
clueless and subpar on the day to day, but as
far as long term vision, I seem to have been trained,
especially like in sort of historical anthropology and everything else,

(22:30):
to see what's coming sooner. So the book is broken
down into the first part is choose your Own Apocalypse,
and it's literally what is the state of things that
we're in right now? And then the middle section is
called the Alchemist's Cookbook, which is how can you create
self authenticating initiatory experiences into fully embodied humanity with household materials.

(22:51):
So let's bypass schedule one, Schedule two, let's make use
of Schedule three, Schedule four, and open source available both
compounds and protocols in order to initiate healing, inspiration, and connection.
And we actually ran a study with ten couples with
a sexual yoga becoming that basically did a full stack
integration of respiration, embodiment, substances, music, and sexuality and measured

(23:16):
it against a six metric protocol including the mEq thirty
for mystical experiences that came out of Hopkins that Roland
Griffith developed the flow scale inventory, so sort of momentary
peak states and flow states, the caps trauma scale, the
baseline waking HRV in the morning, and then the intimacy
itself and other scale and the panas scale. And so

(23:39):
over twelve weeks that combinatory stack without any schedule one
two compounds actually outperformed both talk therapy and existing psychedelic therapies.
So that's the general neck of the woods that we
were interested in playing. And so while I'm for sure
a well, deeply moved and feel a profound indebtedness to entheagens,

(24:06):
I'm also trying to sort of see three five years
ahead where the inevitable vse he captured Big Farmer Squeeze
commodification of this space runs aground as it's absolutely inevitably
going to and the recreational model itself continues to flame out, burnout,

(24:30):
and you will continue to have the dedicated underground keeping
the light as they have. And the question is is
can we actually instantiate something, you know, resembling a postmodern
sacramental relationship with these that actually holds the full spectrum
of the experience. I mean, the thing I'm always really

(24:53):
just baffled by is the number of I mean, there's
a great expression. I try to track down the origins
of the quote, but it's basically there is no Furvor
like the newly converted, right. And when you hear people
breathlessly talking about their psychedelic experiences and how they've been
deep into the study of medicine work for the last
and then they say two years, three years, five years,

(25:13):
You're like, what the fuck? You're a fucking newborn and
fixating on a specific mechanism of action for what is
a much longer project. So I actually just wrote this.
This is a section where I was like, everything I'd
learned about drugs I learned in kindergarten, because my mom
and my wife found my kindergarten report card and it
was it was just kind of a funny thing. So basically,

(25:35):
the idea that my kindergarten teacher said Jamie would make
more friends on the playground if he wasn't always correcting
the other kids on how to play the game right,
and they both start cracking up, And of course the
joke's on me. But the reality is is that that

(25:57):
was my core personality in front at age five. If
I had spent couch time telling about why am I
fucked up on the spectrum, poor social cues, etc. Etc.
I would look back to things that happened after that,
you know, getting transplanted from England to America, always feeling
like a misfit toy, etc. Right, and that all happened,

(26:21):
and the kindergarten kid was before all my mind bending,
life changing, heart opening, reality bending, entheogenic encounters. So that
sense of like how much can we change really, I
think is an absolutely critical, critical conversation. So I'll just
go to kind of pick up there and read this section.

(26:44):
So I don't think I'm alone in my efforts to
sabotage my own growth. After all, if psychedelic benefits extended
linearly from the studies we've been reading lately, then by
all accounts, baby boom or hippies would be galactic time
lords by now, if three sessions of MDMA therapy can
cure everything from depression to PTSD, why aren't thirty three

(27:08):
sessions turning that cat in the hat raver into a
bodie soopper. Because there's a dark underbelly to the groundbreaking
research that's been pouring out of places like JOHNS. Hopkins
in Imperial College over the last decade. Beyond the truly
astonishing statistics and accounts of complete remission of depression and

(27:28):
PTSD symptoms in just a few sessions, now the quieter,
sometimes desperate queries from patients six months later, and six
months after that, once the all two real limitations of
their flawed world and selves return back to the bottom
of the slide, Only this time there's no going back

(27:51):
to their old games. Old time You mystics used to
call that the dark knight of the soul, the hair
ball period. After you've seen the light and then had
it unceremoniously whisked away. It's always darkest and coldest just
before the dawn. Sometimes that next sunrise takes a lot

(28:13):
longer to arrive than we hoped, which begs the broader question,
how transformative can entheogens or sacred substances really be and
are we using them right? This is a real issue.
Arguably it's the issue when it comes to appropriate use

(28:34):
of psychedelic substances. Can we, as scholar Houston Smith once mused,
transform our passing illuminations into abiding light. As asymmetrically positive
as initial experiences can be, especially in structured therapeutic settings,

(28:54):
there appears to be an equal and opposite asymmetrical drop
off and benefit to subsequent efforts once we look beyond
the nearer chemistry of the experience, how much of the
breakthrough healing is prompted by a new direct sense that
there is, in fact, capital m more to life. What

(29:16):
at first is revelatory and uplifting, that is, I don't
have to live a life of suburban conformity, or I
am worthy of love can quickly become existentially overwhelming. Once
I've had my Eureker experience, I realize that all of
that more still irreducibly contains the human condition within it.

(29:42):
Welcome to the brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss. There's a
good reason why most never peer over the edge. Sometimes
more isn't always better, It's just more, a lot more. Wow.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Jamie, thank you so much for sharing that. I couldn't
agree more with the sentiment that you so eloquently summarized
in that passage. I mean, the whole reason why we
started the Psychedelic News Hour and the Psychedelic Clubhouse was
specifically for this purpose of helping people to understand exactly

(30:28):
what you just said. Helping people understand that these medicines
one of my favorite descriptions of them, and I can't
remember who described it this way, but they described it
as a non specific amplifier. And many of these medicines,
from MBMA to psilocybin, to ayahuasca, to any of the

(30:49):
things that that have been used that we've talked about here,
even meditative states can alter the filter, for lack of
a better term, between our awareness and all of that
that's stored beneath our awareness, the loving and wonderful, joyful
parts that we know and some of them that we don't,
and also the parts that we have shut away or

(31:12):
can't remember that are hurt parts and sore parts and
injured parts, and all of those parts are part of us.
But when we face them in these situations, they can
become overwhelming, scary. There can be existential threat and things
of this nature that arise just from the overwhelming nature

(31:35):
of trying to comprehend all this stuff without help, because
it really is transformative experience in one way or another.
And the whole point of doing the practices, the therapeutic work,
of the preparation and the work with a trained practitioner,
and then the integration work afterwards is I can't tell you,

(31:56):
even especially from doing work with my own patients, people
swear that when they do the clinical work with us,
and this happens with MBMA too and the soul cyber trials,
one of the most common reports is that they don't
believe they took the same drug that they took when
they were partying, because the experience to them was so
subjectively different and so much more profoundly safe. And I

(32:20):
think safety was one of the key things that really
helps people have these healing, transformative experiences that are long lasting.
That they swore it was a different drug, which is
just speaks so heavily to what you just said and
to how we need to really consider these things and
that set and setting and intention and preparation integration are

(32:42):
are critical, and having someone around who understands how to
help is so critical when you're having these experiences.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
Yes, although to be fair to your patients, right, I mean,
I think that MAPS has been accidentally on purpose flooding
the back door lane with pharmaceutical grade MDMA. And I
think there was a study and Vice maybe in twenty
ten where they did an assay across all of the
clubs in Miami, and I think only seventeen percent of
the so called molly had any MDMA in it. And

(33:14):
now street street purities are ratcheting up north of eighty
five percent. So it's not just our imaginations. It's getting better. Yeah,
you know, So this is the one economic time I
think that I've heard of trickled up, the trickodiwn theory
of economics actually paying out. The opposite is happening with
Kenymine and that's getting cut with fentanyl, and that's been
playing a rock pod and some of the respiratory arrest

(33:36):
tragedies and fatalities in our current community.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report, I mean.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah, I think the TLDR is Kenymine as tricksy as fuck,
and people don't necessarily die from it nearly as often
as they die on it or near it.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
In the same way most psychedelics for them.

Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah, and it, you know, And I think I was
talking with Eric Davis, who's a you know, sort of
scholar of the esoterica and transformational communities. He's based in
the Bay Area as well. And keep bottom line it
so beautifully because we were actually we were talking about
after Tony she died, and there's another couple of deaths
in the community sort of closely surrounding that that I

(34:24):
think prompted a lot of folks to wonder, what on
earth is going on here? And is this all as
copaesthetic as we like to tell ourselves and each other.
And and he said, he said, yes, this is the
ketamine experience. He's been given the cheek coage to reality.
You're seeing things as they actually and truly are. This

(34:49):
is vitally important. You are vitally important, and you need
to come back as soon as possible to receive the
rest of this messa it and I love that that
Friends and Neighbors is a slippery motherfucking slope. I mean,
in this conversation, you know, the languaging you're using, the

(35:11):
frameworks you're applying are completely appropriate for your role in
the medical health helping profession, right, so you're speaking within
that vernacular. My sense, you know, is an excitatory glutamate
receptor interaction, is it gaba? Is it this and that?
You know whatever we're studying? Who knows? Maybe perhaps right

(35:32):
then there's the question like Cayl Deseroth that Stanford that
has done that study with ketamine and with epileptic patients
as well as with mice and has actually found that
the dissociative experience actually plays a role in healing, and
that what's more is you can actually, you know, if
you get into three hoods delta wave induction stimulation, you
can precipitate the disembodied associative experience without any of the

(35:53):
pharmacological priming, and that still delivers antidepressive effects. So you're like,
oh fucking fascinating. So know, how do we crack this.
Nitrosoxide creates double you know, mit study from there in
the theology department found that double intitude delta waves persist
for three to twelve minutes after induction in the fifty
to fifty oxygen nitrosoxide blend, and people have profound ideation

(36:14):
in that states from William James to Winston Churchill, you know,
and you can create a deep brainstem reboot with the
electric stimulation of the cranial nerves, you know, through the
tongue and the ponds, you know, all the way to
the vague nerve. And you're like, hmm, okay, well, perhaps
actually the GOODS is a nervous system death rebirth initiatory

(36:36):
ritual involving a complete reset at the brainstem level that
appears to be congruent across spectra. And I think you've
seen probably the radar plots of like five NEO where
you get massive, massive synchronous integration, like basically the delta
wave lights up across the brain fully interconnected at peak

(36:57):
FIVEMEO experience. So you're like, oh, okay, so now we've
been focusing on the key and when and which key
fits in the lot, but we're not talking about what
happens when that door swings open wide and you step
through the threshold into the newness. And then that's the
challenge with the pharmacological and even the recreation I mean

(37:19):
the recreational models. People bungee jump into the back of beyond,
but there aren't too many cartographers. There's there's not too
many people you know, putting ladders up across the crevasses
and fixing ropes on the tough on the tough sections,
there's just joy riding. And I think until we really
start articulating the trons, like basically, well, you know, there's

(37:43):
a movement and it's not yet, but it'll become. It's
coming soon where people will need to choose to come
out as trons, you know, like trons dimensional beings where
you're like, here's my biograph self and I and and
where I park my meat suit in three D, right,

(38:07):
and here's the rest and so so that's the piece
that to me, like, as long as we're coming at
this from these exclusively clinical most I mean, the sacramental
model has baked in the encounter with the newminus, that's
the whole fucking point. And the fact that a, I mean,
I've just you know, we've sung two threads here. One
is we are no longer dependent on the specific key

(38:29):
in the lock. We know how to pick the lock
the nearest. The nearest somatic protocol is clean Christine, and
works every fucking time, you know, boost dopamine endorphins and
nantomide increase vagual tone. You know, upregulate down, down, regulate
respiratory protocols, switch out gas assisted blends. Do a brainstem

(38:54):
reset with electrical stimulation ketamine, nitrosoxide or five meo cul
that's pulse energy through said primate nervous system with light, sound, pain, orgasm.
You know, take your pick of way to load and
release energy through synapses. You know, hold your master as

(39:15):
long as possible. Don't flinch. Remember what you forgot? Do
your homework?

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, you said it. You know, this is a great
segue because you know, you in part I think answered
my next question for you, which was going back to
to sort of the themes of your book and how
people can get to the other side as unscathed as
possible through this process. Is it sort of the culmination

(39:41):
of everything you just mentioned that that you think is
the path or there are other other things that we
need to be thinking about that we can do as individuals.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
Yeah, I mean I think even that, like again, that
very premise is also a fool's errand it's like it's
like hey, motherfuck, like like go you're white whale. If
you don't believe those capital and more like go bring
that bell. But as soon as you're done, come home,
come back. You're needed because the idea that somehow we

(40:15):
are going to escape the mortal coil, that we're somehow
going to bypass the vicisitudes of the human experience that
is a fool's errand at a minimum, and a sociopathic
fucking diversion at a maximum. And especially as we're experiencing
increasing intensity consequences and potentially dwindling resources as the planet's expanding,

(40:37):
you're like that shit don't fly anymore, you know. So
it's like unplugged from the matrix. Realize that you were fucking,
you know, living in a prison house.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Okay, you get a hug, you get a high five
and a towel and maybe a long weekend at the
spa to marvel in your newfound rebornness and on Monday
at eight am shop, you know.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Show up to work. So the fetishizing of our transcendence,
I think is one of the biggest problems. Like no shit, man,
that's fucking table stakes. And what's really needed is that
we check there isn't fact they're there, Like the idea
that we are just you know, starlight dressed up as matter. Right,

(41:24):
that sounds fantastical, and New Age workshops get flogged on
the promise of showing that to you in three, you know,
three easy days. But he's like, yeah, no, shit, go
contemplate it. And it's turtles up down on sideways as
far as the eye can see. So we come back
to this human experience twice born, and we're like, oh, fuck, okay,

(41:48):
this is this is Dorothy coming back to Kansas. This
is Ebenezer on Christmas morning, this is Jimmy Stewart right,
it's all those epifanic returns to our humanity. That's the
fucking inflection point. It's not the selfie on the summit.
It's holy shit. I was trying to get away from
the density and the pain and the suffering of this

(42:10):
eight decades that dropped in my lap, and I haven't
known what to do with. But now I do know
what to do with what's left and right, And now
I'm like, holy shit, Like I've gone to posable thumbs
and a prefrontal cortex and a spinal column correct connected
to erogenous zones, and I can fight, and I can fuck,
and I can weep, and I can grieve, and I
can build, and I can create and I can destroy. Amen,

(42:34):
I'm here, I'm in.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
And to add to that, I can feel, I'm allowed
to feel. I can know and I cannot know.

Speaker 5 (42:46):
And I think this is something I was talking with
Nickikins about yesterday actually, and in this talking about love
and this idea of you know, there are certain things
we know about, and then we're taught to believe we're
supposed to know hell of a lot more than we
actually know, and what.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
We know is.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Actually not a lot. You know, We're taught to say
that we know who we are as people. And a
big part of that box that we put ourselves into
that you were meant alluding to earlier that we have
to break out of, is the box that we create
for ourselves based on what we are taught to know
about ourselves, not the actual process itself of self discovery,

(43:32):
of actually freely admitting to ourselves. And this is one
of the most therapeutic things that I do in my
work with people, is helping people to come to a
point where they feel safe enough to freely admit to
themselves that it's okay to not know who they are.
And when you can admit to yourself that it's okay
to not know who you are and it's okay to
not know what you're capable of as a human being.

(43:56):
Then all of a sudden, it's like a light bulb
goes off, right like you were saying, all of a sudden,
we have access to a tremendous not more potential, an
infinite amount of opportunity that is always been there, but
we have to step out of that box to access it.
And the scientific studies that you mentioned in many others

(44:17):
have done some incredible work to show the mechanisms in
large part of how these medicines work and what they
do in the common ground between them, and one of
the fascinating things about them is that they serve two
purposes in my view, that I think are the two
most important things that I convey to people that I
think makes the biggest difference in their outcome in terms
of preparation for these transformative experiences. Number one is that

(44:41):
the medicine is a catalyst to a process that is
already going on inside of you. It does not make
the process happen. It accelerates a process that already exists chemically.
For a certain amount of time. And number two, that
acceleration of that internal p process, that whole experience with

(45:02):
the medicine, the medicine is is a teacher, and the
experience itself with the medicine is a teacher, as every
experience is. And so when we go into these experiences
with medicine and we have respect for the experience as
a teacher and to really take in except that we
don't know and ask the medicine to teach us and

(45:23):
help us understand what we need to know to reach
our highest level of ourselves, our fullest versions of ourselves,
our wholest selves, whatever you want to however you want
to describe it, you know, our next level of consciousness
and into as you said, like trans dimensional beings. We
need to we need to understand that we can be
safe enough to open up to these experiences and allow

(45:46):
them to teach us, you know, allow every experience to
be the growth opportunity that it was meant to be.

Speaker 4 (45:52):
Yeah, I mean, and although if we were going to
be really nitpicky like and I think this, you know,
it's what's sort of talking this out loud on behalf
of kind of everyone together in this conversation, which is,
and right there you stayed on the righteous side of it,
but you were right there at the watershed. The sort

(46:13):
of continental divide is slipping into proactive meaning making of
anthropomorphizing the medicine, presuming it has knowledge or wisdom that
it is teaching us. We're in a recipient role outside
our own selves, which can you know, which can subtly
you know, at least people feeling cocooned. It creates, It

(46:33):
can create dependency. And then the thing that I'm noticing
is a ship pile of functional medicine doctors who started
out doing blood tests and epigenetics and getting you good
prescriptions for a testosterone and are now prescribing ketamine and
are now having you know, and quite often under the
table additional enthegens on their menu, and are now way

(46:58):
out of their skis clipped with white glove executive concierge medicine.
So this is pay to play situations. And now they
are falling trapped to the to the Guru effect. People
are coming out of these death rebirth experiences. They're imprinting
on them like little ducklings mistaking a bonyard pig for

(47:18):
their mother. And these physicians who are undertrained and have
not understood the ironclad therapeutic maxim if you do not
fucking get up unto somebody's grill in a susceptible state
and makes sense for them, and so right, So this
is where the ontological frameworks, you know, even the classification
of it as medicine, which in your guy's case is

(47:40):
legit your physicians prescribing a pharmaceutical, But in the casual
counterculture it's a fucking face. I mean, I've even heard
people talk, but yeah, we were down in Cabo for
our girlfriend's thirtieth birthday and we were into some party
medicines and you're like, come on now, are you fucking serious,
Like like, that's not a word, that's not a concept.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
To tie that back to sort of what we were
talking about earlier, part of the understanding of how these
medicines work, I believe firmly can be democratized, you know,
to provide harm reduction measures for the community. We're starting
to see that in different ways where people are sort
of taking it on themselves to democratize information about how
to use psychedelic medicine safely. The third wave has taken

(48:23):
a crack at it there's a number of others out
there as well, And I totally am with you in
terms of what you were saying about the possibility of
people externalizing the locust of healing, Jamie, because that's actually
a critical thing to this whole process, is that we're
teaching people how to heal themselves.

Speaker 4 (48:39):
Right.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
That is the conversation that is the hippocratic approach to medicine.
The traditional origins of Western medicine, but also Eastern medicine
and tribal medicine all converge on this ancient approach to healing.
Our role as physicians, as healers, as caregivers is not
to make the patient the client dependent or reliant on

(49:01):
the healthcare system itself, the provider themselves, or the medicine themselves,
but to teach that the experience with the medicine and
with the provider is a therapeutic experience that teaches them
how to heal themselves so that they don't become reliant
on us.

Speaker 4 (49:19):
Right.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
We know well very well that our system is not
set up to support people being completely reliant on us.
It just doesn't work that way. So I think that
there's a really interesting movement now the Board of Medicine
is one organization that I work with that's focused on
this as well, that is really pushing to produce guidelines.
And I know some other groups that are doing interesting

(49:40):
work in this that are pushing guidelines and peer reviewed,
evidence based literature around how to take care of ourselves
better and how to provide these healing experiences of ourselves
with or without medicine more effectively at home.

Speaker 4 (49:58):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, but a dozen worthwhile points to follow
up on. I mean, the simplest is to your query of, like,
you know, time frame to success or failure in this movement.
You know, I started writing this book two years ago
after Stealing Fire had been out for a couple of years,
and I was like, oh shit, you know hey, gratifying

(50:18):
that it was helped crystallize the naming and the self
awareness of a movement as it was emerging. And then
within a couple of years I was like, oh, fuck me,
this is a children's crusade, man, and this is heading
straight off a cliff, same hippen turn. Never mind the
skid marks as the sixties and seventies and no one's
even noticing. So I would say, actually, the best thing

(50:40):
for us to do is actually, this thing is already
fucked irrevocably. It is going this is going off a cliff.
It is going to do all the horrible, terrible things
and there is no stopping it. That's okay and inevitable
and is not the whole ballgame. So rather than the
same way, it's I don't think it's particularly like. It's

(51:01):
not the unlock the rate limited to our transformation of
human consciousness and culture. Isn't the drugs, isn't the psychedelic experience,
you know, It's none of these things, Nor is it
the psychedelic renaissance, nor is it capitalization coming into the marketplace.
These are all just ephemera. And the real thing is,
can we as humans make the next move to fully

(51:25):
empowered and fully embodied homo ludins not just homo sapiens
who know, but homo ludins who play, you know, and
then choose to play the infinite game, which is all
of us, are none of us everywhere? Every win. That's it.
That's for all the marvels, right, because we have on
both sides of the political spectrum, you have people looking

(51:47):
to smash the global humanist project and take what's their
and there's been fascinating study came out of the University
in Australia just in the last six months on dot
triad and authoritarian personality trades and found that centrists who
basically were I believe what I believe, but live and
let live everyone else is entitled to also do that

(52:09):
didn't score on the dark tried or authoritarian scale at all.
But both social justice folks on the far left and
alt right white identitarians on the far right both were
off huts. And so you know, you roll this back
to the jack Yeah, you roll this shit back to
the Jacobins and Robespierre and the French Revolution. You think, oh, fact, man,

(52:30):
I mean, the French Revolution has some pretty damn good
ideas liberty, equality and fraternity, yay, you know, and that
did not stop the reign of terror. So what we're
seeing is that actually in the culture wars, far left
and alt right are actually playing on the same team.
They didn't realize that they're playing for the finite game.

(52:51):
They're playing win lose outcomes, and it doesn't matter what
flag you fucking flying or what uniform you think you're wearing,
it's finite versus team infinite. You know, and Tila just
shot in right, the Jesuit theologian, I mean, he nailed
this in the thirties. He's like, hey, I think the
way this is going to go down is there's going

(53:12):
to be three intersecting curves at the end of time,
and it's going to be the planet and you'd be
with this that long ago. He's like, the planetary carrying
capacity of this Earth, and then the intersection of those
drawn to Team Infinite and those committed to break from
that in separation and play for Team finite, he said,
and that that section of the newest for our collective

(53:35):
shared mind space that makes it to the end of
time together in love will become the body of Christ
together in the process of Christogenesis. And you're like, ah, fuck, okay,
that sounds like a pretty good one to shoot for,
like Bucky Fuller style. You know, well that works for
all the people with insulted would insult in none. Right,

(53:58):
You're like, okay, let's play that game. So I would
encourage us to like leapfrog over this whole train rad
be like, yes, necessary, but not sufficient. Help people get
to eighty twenty. You woken to broken, like you get
the twenty percent. You get the Pareto principle. You get
your eighty percent of your insights from your first twenty

(54:18):
percent of dabbling. Remember who you are, Remember what you forgot.
Note where you feel the wound of the world most acutely,
and where that intersects with your talent, right the intersection
of your talent and your trauma, and then go do
something about it. But that notion of I'm then going

(54:39):
to spend the remaining eighty percent of my time, life, money,
workshop weekends trying to polish the last twenty percent of
my perfectibility because I'm under the illusion that I'll then
be able to levitate above the clouds and none of
these things will hurt me anymore. That's one thing that's
bourgeois narcissism, from like you know, nineteen fifty to lately.

(55:01):
But lately it's sociopathic self indulgence. You're like that remaining
eighty percent of my time, money, and resources, instead of
getting my head above the clouds, could be devoted to
turning around and helping the least of my brothers and
sisters behind me just get their heads above the fucking waterline.
And let's actually set up a bucket Brigade of Redemption

(55:25):
instead of drowning in our swimming pool of it by ourselves.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
I mean, god damn, we're so wrapped around the axle
right now. If like our orthodox disagreements, and there's purity
tests left and right, you know, and if you say
the wrong thing or you use the wrong word, then
you're instantly identified and vilified and ostracized by an othered
because you're no longer considered one of us. And that

(55:57):
to me, like we're just never going to get to
be singing out of the same hembook. And on the
other hand, there's this profound amount of places we overlap,
you know, So it's like, well, are you taking a
stand for making sure there's no more leather and shoes
and you want to have everything become vegan like because

(56:17):
you've extended your sphere of concern all the way out
to animals, Well, hats off to you. I might actually
be really willing to fight the good fight for the
humans inside my country, but you're also a human inside
my country. So while your stand is on veganism worldwide,
perhaps we can get together on the humans inside our country,
or maybe that's too far off a stretch. And I'm

(56:38):
a red state, Blue state, Okay, so what about schools
inside our red state? Can we get together around that?
How about our community or our river? And can we
just find the furthest expanse of our shared sphere of
concern and agree to get together there, meet in mutuality

(56:58):
and get to work help. And then if it turns
out that beyond that boundary we are actually adversarial, we
are in opposition. At least we can do it looking
each other in the eye and committing to fight the
good fight. And so when you know you quarantine, it's
kind of impact on people's mental health, it's ability to

(57:19):
connect and all that kind of stuff. It feels to
me that there is a very natural sort of progression,
almost like Russian nesting dolls, you know, that takes us
from biohacking all the way to bodhisata, you know, And
it's basically self, you know, like can I look after

(57:39):
an energized, vitalized resource biopsychosocial self system you know, formerly
known as me? And if I can, I've got sleep, diet, rest, movement, integration,
stable psychology, et cetera. And I've got enough juice leftover,
and perhaps I can love a partner, Perhaps we can

(57:59):
raise thriving children. Perhaps I have enough to care for
my family. And if my family is thriving and I
have enough left and then perhaps I can become a
leader in my community. And it's the same in my community,
then perhaps a leader in my nation or the world. Now,
the thing, the key there is that that's a sliding scale.
I get, I fall off a ladder. Then suddenly I'm

(58:20):
back to the bottom of the slide and just looking
out for me, and my capacity to care for the
world is reduced. It's situational, it's fungible, and it's environmentally dependent.
But the more I can care for each of those
nested dolls, the further my concern and my impact can be.

(58:41):
And just to give each other all patience, because it's
a rough time and a lot of people are deco
hearing yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Without a doubt, And that metaphor of the nested dolls
is such a powerful one and really resonates, I think
with the whole thing we've been talking about here today.
And I just wanted to thank you again for taking
the time to join us. This has been an incredible
hour so far with you, and if you have a
few minutes left, I would just love to give people

(59:09):
the opportunity to ask a couple questions. Yeah, of course,
I think Brian's up first.

Speaker 4 (59:15):
Brian, how are you my men? What's up? What's up? Everybody?

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Good to see Good to see you guys.

Speaker 6 (59:22):
To brother Jamie, how are you man?

Speaker 4 (59:23):
Good to hear you too.

Speaker 6 (59:26):
I'm feeling apocalyptic this Friday. Do you mind if we
talk apocalypse?

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Let's do it.

Speaker 6 (59:31):
So you mentioned one of our shared favorite Jesuit mystics,
the Great Tehada Shadan and the end of Time, and
I'm curious. You know what. You mentioned this concept of
Team Omega, which very much dovetails with some of the
things that I've been working on, and this concept of
mystical pluralism. You know, Alan Watts likened it to setting

(59:53):
up a democracy in the Kingdom of Heaven, this idea
of a popular outbreak of mysticism, and I think psychedelics
could be a very powerful way.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
To do that.

Speaker 6 (01:00:04):
And I guess my question for you, Jamie is is
what happens after that practice of resurrection? So when these
things are happening right with the incoming death of the planet.
So with the impending death of the planet and the
rending a part of the NA sphere, and this unique
moment when this tiny percentage of the universe is succeeding

(01:00:27):
to synthesize itself across time and space. What does crystogenesis
actually look like? You've practiced resurrection, you've had the death
and rebirth. Maybe there's some critical mass of people who've
done it. What does that bucket brigade look like? What
does service look like to you? When you've discovered the
only thing worth discovering in this human body complex, which

(01:00:50):
is the love of the divine spark that resides in
all of us. What does that bucket brigade look like
on the path to redemption?

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
I mean, I think that is obviously that's the Rilka
kind of thing of like live the questions, you know,
I mean, that's a beautiful question for us to live into.
And you know, there's a couple of things you talked
about Watts's mystical pluralism. William James expressed something similar. You know,
that kind of rational mysticism or transcendental humanism, mystical pluralism,

(01:01:24):
they're all in that same neck of the woods, which
is what is something that is immersive, experiential, experimental, non doctrinal,
non dogmatic, and earlier we were just kind of sharing
that sort of the protocol, like the nerve physiological protocol
to precipitate a death rebirth experience which tends to love

(01:01:47):
you into the information layer in which the implicate order
is revealed and disclosed to you in a perfect way
for you and only you. So then the question becomes
is we don't actually need all of the mythologies, which
is where the doctrine and the dogma comes, and we
can have interpreted frameworks and kind of trim tad instruction guides,
but we can actually let the mystery stay the mystery
in the middle, because there's used to be asymmetrically delivered.

(01:02:10):
Like one lucky mystic would have a breakthrough experience on
a mountaintop or in a cave. They'd come back down,
hair on fire and tell the rest of the klan
all about it, and then generations upon generations of accretion
and calcification would a crew around that initial insight. No
one else you know, how to fucking get there, and
they wanted to take his word for it, and then
you ended up with a priest class that were the interpreters,
privileged interpreters, et cetera, et cetera, And so we end

(01:02:31):
up with devolved, calcified, moribund traditional religion. I mean, not
not to dismiss it the values of a blanket, but
like that is a a general dynamic. And today when
you're talking about this practicing resurrection and at Team Omega,
the idea that we can all go and see for ourselves.
Therefore we don't need to burn a single calorie on

(01:02:54):
presuming to name the mystery. We can literally just bow
down to it. We can let the burning bush burn.
And then as a result, what does life look like? Well,
life looks like the sort of you know Xenox setting
parable of like, you know, the final stage of enlightenment
in that zen parable isn't slinging lightning bolts from Olympus.

(01:03:16):
It's it's it's you know, you've boarded up your house,
the wise men and scholars can't find you, and you're
down in the marketplace with helping hands. So like the
Bucket Brigade, to me looks like kick ass community gardens
and potlucks and dance jams and intergenerational childcare and us

(01:03:38):
doing this human thing just a little better, just a
little lighter, just a little more joyfully and a little
more inclusively then we've figured out out how to do
until now.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Thank you so much for that beautifully crafted answer. The
way that you describe the simple things that we can
do is elegant, and I think it really brings to
heart how within our grasp all of this really is.
And I really appreciate you, Brian for coming up and
asking that great question as mail. I hope I said
your name.

Speaker 7 (01:04:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's me. Yeah, what's going on, guys? Awesome stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
Again.

Speaker 7 (01:04:18):
I think one of the things I wanted to touch
on here is the area I think of ethics you mentioned,
I think all three of you probably mentioned and discuss
for a little bit, and who honestly is going to
be the providers of this space? I mean, are we
going to go to institution route with colleges and universities
developing like PhD programs inside D programs, or even like

(01:04:42):
potentially another kind of credited program to like credential potential providers,
or are we going to go to the traditional route
and just kind of stick with the psychiatrist that potentially
don't even have any experience in this space altogether, So
I'm just curious on like what your thoughts right revision
is for that space and who potentially could be confidentialized

(01:05:04):
and if it's not going to be the institutions or universities,
and are there potential opportunities for alternative providers not necessarily
medical in that case.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
So, yeah, are you referring to psychedelic psychotherapy specifically or
any kind.

Speaker 7 (01:05:20):
Of yes, psychedelic assistant therapies.

Speaker 5 (01:05:23):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Well, the quick answer is that at this point, there
are very specific rules about what kind of medical doctors
that are you know, Western train that are licensed and
board certified can provide specific prescriptions to Kenemy. And then
there are some other healthcare providers that have prescription privileges

(01:05:45):
in different states that can potentially provide KEDEMY if they
get the proper licenses from the DEA. And that's the
way it is right now. Will that change, It's hard
to say, Probably not anytime soon. MBMA is the same way.
It requires a license that can be only used in
clinical trials at this time. So at this point in

(01:06:06):
the US, it looks like for the indefinite I shouldn't
say the indefinite future. I would say for at least
five years at least. I don't see it changing any
quicker than that. These medicines are all going to be
you know, regulated through the FDA as prescription and the
DEA as prescription drugs that require a licensed board certified

(01:06:31):
in good standing prescriber to be able to prescribe, which
is usually a doctor. There are always other people providing
these things, but to get the pharmaceutical grade medical treatments
you will likely have to go that path. And to
add MAPS is doing a ton of trainings of people.

(01:06:52):
The Ketymene Research Foundation by Phil Wolf's by Phil Wolfson
who founded Keademy, Assistant Psychotherapy and Psychotherapy Associates are all
training people to do psychedelic assisted psychotherapy with MBMA and
ketemine respectively. They both use a very similar technique in
terms of the psychotherapy approach, so if you learn one,

(01:07:13):
it's relatively easy to do the other. So we use
a lot of those treatments, and we also have a
training program for clinical ketamine assisted psychotherapy with PHILS technique
on the Board of Medicine, and so there are lots
of interesting opportunities for that. There are also religious organizations
that provide medicine, and then people go outside of the

(01:07:35):
country as well, which isn't necessarily recommended. To make sure
that we, I know, be respectful of Jamie's time, and
he has to head out soon, so Tomy, you're up.

Speaker 8 (01:07:45):
Hey, guys, thank you so much for this hour. This
has been amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:07:50):
Jamie.

Speaker 8 (01:07:51):
My question is regarding a time when Ken Wilbur had
humongous biceps and you asked him a question, and I'm
going to flip it and ask you in this time
you asked him about the relationship between the relative and

(01:08:11):
the absolute side of the street, and since then, I
think you have some experience regarding the answer, and I
want to ask you, what's your advice to people who
are passively working on the wake up process and sometimes
indulge in indigens and on the other hand, is heavily

(01:08:33):
heavily invested in actually bettering the world and making impact
and balancing the two sides.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
What's your advice? Well, good memory, that was probably gosh,
fifteen years ago. I mean, it sounds like in the
framing of your question that you know the answer, you
know truly and you know slightly more technical, is my
best advice is I mean a don't mistake the selfie

(01:09:05):
on the summit for the completed journey. And our goal
is always returning home with helping hands. And rather than
us trying to escape the restraints of this human condition,
embrace the limitations of it. And it's very hard to

(01:09:27):
fucking do that when we're pile driven down into the
dirt with the densities of it. So periodizing our peak
states and our deep healing and then engaging in relationship
becomes a flywheel of exosis, cathosis, communitas, and it's how

(01:09:51):
we go on. It's how we do this thing. There
isn't an end, there's not a bypass or an escape patch.
And if we balance them with daily foundational practices and
weekly sabbath practices and monthly deep dives and seasonal weekends
and annual week long blow out the pipes, then we

(01:10:14):
have a way to keep our flywheel humming right without
having to engage in the stop stop start, stop, too hot,
too cold. We can stay in the goldilocks sweet spot
of effectively the closest I think sematic reference point most
folks on this call would have would be the afterglow

(01:10:35):
of an MDMA experience where therapeutic work, insights shifts can
happen in a fluid way, and let's do that, but
not too much of that, just enough of that to
remember who we are, what we've forgotten, and what's ours

(01:10:56):
to do. And then, you know this sim simple miss
is the only difference between an alchemist and an addict
is the scoreboard. So am I or am I not
turning my passing illuminations into abiding light? And if I am,

(01:11:18):
then the game is just stay awake, build stuff, help.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Out, well said, thank you? Can you say those three
things that you that we need to remember again for
everyone because those are really important.

Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
The last three that I just said.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
The second to last three, the remember who we are
and what.

Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
We are there to do? Yeah, I mean I don't
remember the exact that I know the general neck of
the woods. So it's definitely like experience and amnesis or
experience the forgetting of the forgetting, which is another way
of saying a deep remembering. All right, And and Shulgan
talked about that too. She's like, anytime I get back
to that place, I you know, it seems profoundly familiar

(01:12:04):
and as if as if I've been here before, So
go back to that place. Remember what conversation, what thread,
what insight, what inspiration that is ours to take back
from there, come back into this realm. Don't fumble the
fucking football in the end zone, you know, like it's

(01:12:24):
no good. It's no good if it slips out through
our fingers, Like oh yeah, right. I totally had the
meaning of life and what I'm supposed to do next,
and I kind of forgot it because I was drooling
and gathering wool, Like remember what we forgot? Go and
do what's ours to do, and find our brothers and
sisters like this human we don't we don't need tech

(01:12:46):
think to get overly complicated and were sure, shit don't
need to get I mean, I think you know. To me,
it's far less about whether you have MDPHD, you know, MS,
or whatever else it would be after your name. It's
less the letters. It's are you a virgin or a narcissist?
Both of those are contraindicated. If you don't know the place,
if you don't know the places you're sending people, you

(01:13:07):
probably shouldn't be sending them there. And if you're tempted
to take the claim if you're attempted to harvest that
false light that is coming off the pharmacological glow you
probably shouldn't be leading folks. So basically, I think there's
kind of an informal litnus and this is for both
recreational and medical space, an throwne sacramental. This is really

(01:13:31):
kind of writ large across the use of entheogens. There's
at least four like over traps, and I think we're
all kind of sniffing around each other to see if
anyone's fallen into them. Or you just getting a visceral hit,
which is have you become a bliss junkie? Right? Are
you just tapping the buzzer for more pretty light? Have
you become an epiphany whore?

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:13:53):
Are you so obsessed with your quote unquote personal journey
that you can't get your own head out your ass
and your first ever pursuing that diminishing bell curve? Have
you become seduced by your newest reality tunnel instead of
remembering they're all fucking reality tunnels and the right and
the goal is not just to upgrade my eight iOS

(01:14:16):
version for a new twenty you know, a new augmented
reality Pokemon version it's they're all reality tunnels, and look
at your home screen and see all of the apps,
and even look at the hand that's holding the phone.
And then the final one is, you know, are you
grabbing the one ring of power? Have you taken the
claim as a golden god? You know? And it's kind

(01:14:38):
of it's right, it's kind of it's like Ron Burgundy
d MT edition, you know, like everybody's kind of a
big deal in in hyperspace, you know. So do we
set do we set down that that halo when we
come back into these realms.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
Right and and and always remembering the tokens that about
being about ourselves, the tokens of being human being part
of this consciousness that we are we all despite no
matter what novelty or unfamiliarity we see in each other,
no matter how much adversity we see between each other,
we're always human first. We are always more similar than
we are different. And that fundamental understanding is a wonderful

(01:15:18):
foundation to nurture into community and these acts of kindness
and healing that we've been talking about. Thanks for listening
to The Psychedelic Report. Visit us at the Psychedelic Report
dot com. This show is recorded weekly on Clubhouse with
a live audience. The Psychedelic Report was brought to you

(01:15:42):
by a poly neuroscience and produced by Future Medicine Media.
While I am a doctor, I'm not your doctor, So
please don't take anything you hear on The Psychedelic Report
as personal medical advice because we don't know you. If
you have questions about anything you hear on this show,
please consult with your doctor.