September 30, 2024 • 32 mins
In this episode, Dr. Dave Rabin and Dr. Jonathan Edwards tackle the controversial topic of ketamine in light of the tragic death of actor Matthew Perry. Together, they explore the safety profile of ketamine, its legitimate uses in treating depression and suicidal ideation, and dispel misinformation regarding its association with Perry's passing.Dr. Edwards, a leading expert in ketamine-assisted therapy and author of The Revolutionary Ketamine, offers his insights on the pressing need for effective mental health treatments. As suicide rates continue to rise, particularly among young people, this episode emphasizes the potential of ketamine as a life-saving treatment and the importance of therapy in conjunction with medication.Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of ketamine’s role in mental health and how it can potentially save lives.
- The Revolutionary Ketamine on Amazon
- Stopping Pain: A Revolutionary Approach on Amazon
- Dr. Jonathan Edwards' Website
- Subscribe to Dr. Edwards' Substack
- Web: https://psychedelic.support/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrDavidRabin
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdavidrabin
- Web: https://www.drdave.io/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Psychedelic Reports. Psychedelic drugs have played their part in
America's long strange trip toward an understanding of mind. All
during drugs The Psychedelic News.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Leading physicians, scientists, and experts share their wisdom about psychedelic
medicines and healing. Fifty years ago, psychedelic drugs were at
the center of America's counterculture.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
The brightest minds in psychedelic medicine the Psychedelic Report. We
use the kedemy assisted psychotherapy model that happens to have
psychedelic effects that were not predicted when the drug was
first developed.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
From researchers to investors.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I think the biggest mistake we pat as the culture
is the war of drugs. So physicians to shamans and
non private pioneers psychedelic drugs.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Recent research suggests some of them could have legitimate uses.
The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
lines of this exciting movement, The Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
your host, doctor Dave raven I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MBMA assisted therapy.
(01:21):
Today we discussed the uses of the medicine ketamine and
its safety profile in the context of Matthew Perry's tragic
death from the news media describing the situation. There is
a lot of misinformation about ketamine that has surfaced in
the public eye. A number of articles have come out
(01:43):
over the last several weeks discussing the risks of ketymine
and how ketamine was responsible for Matthew Perry's death, including
one article by Andrew Kine on CNN Health entitled has
Ketamine's time of Reckoning Arrived? Five Things to know after
Matthew Perry's death. Matthew Perry was a strong advocate for
(02:07):
folks struggling with addiction, and it is very clear to
anyone who works with ketamine as a clinician in the
clinical environment that Matthew Perry's care was clearly mismanaged by
those clinicians who were providing him said care. This creates
a real issue in the field of mental health where
(02:30):
ketamine is entering mental health and treatment as one of
the leading anti suicidal antidepressants that, when administered properly, is
extraordinarily safe and a powerful tool for helping those with
depression recover. Interestingly, it is also one of the only
antidepressants that has almost immediate anti suicidal effects. Those who
(02:55):
work with ketamine are also aware that in the proper
doses I mean, is an extremely safe medication when administered correctly. However,
the media and the way that the media in general
has approached this topic, not to mention the Los Angeles
County Medical Examiner's Office, who determined that the cause of
(03:16):
death were the acute effects of ketymine rather than drowning,
really cast a shadow on the use of this powerful
medicine in mental health patients. To break down this topic
and to really understand what happened to Matthew Perry, we
have a very special guest today who's really one of
(03:37):
the nations leading experts and physicians treating patients with ketemine.
That guest is doctor Jonathan Edwards. Doctor Edwards is an
antithesiologist and medical practitioner specializing in human health and optimization.
He is perhaps best known for treating mental health conditions
with kenemine, a dissociative anesthetic that is used for general anesthesia,
(04:02):
pain management, and depression. Doctor Edwards also uses ketamine to
help adolescents overcome depression and suicidal ideation. In today's interview,
we talk about his new book, The Revolutionary Ketamine, The
safe drug that effectively treats depression and prevents suicide. More
Americans have died from suicide than all wars since Vietnam.
(04:26):
The suicide rate among ten to twenty four year olds
in this country increase sixty two percent from two thousand
and seven through twenty twenty one. As doctor Edwards points
out in today's discussion, most people are not aware that
American children between the ages of ten and fourteen are
twice as likely to die from suicide than homicide. Doctor
(04:48):
Edwards explains that suicide is a pressing problem in America.
He also points out that police and firefighters are more
likely to die from suicide than in the line of duty.
This is a figure. Doctor Edwards then gives an overview
of ketamine and its ability to help treat depression suicidal thoughts.
Doctor Edwards pivots to mention the dark side of ketymine,
(05:10):
including ketemine misuse in overdose. Recent studies have reported a
worldwide increase in ketemine misuse and overdoses. Back in October,
Matthew Perry, one of the stars of the popular sitcom Friends,
died from what the Los Angeles coroner described as the
acute effects of ketymine. Because this was such a high
(05:32):
profile case, Doctor Edwards gave his opinion on what happened
to Matthew Perry and discuss the potential adverse effects of ketemine.
Doctor Edwards is a Board certified antiseesiologist who treats chronic
pain patients. He is the author of several books and
medical papers, including The Revolutionary Ketemine, Stopping Pain, Chasing Dukhar Suicide,
(05:55):
COVID nineteen Ketamine, and The Science of the Maratha On.
He practices medicine in Las Vegas, Nevada, and Port Orange, Florida.
Doctor Jonathan Edwards, thank you so much for taking the
time to join us today to discuss this rather sad
and timely topic around the uses of kennymine as a
(06:19):
medicine and the misuses in this particular case.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh, it's good to see you again, Dave. Thanks for
having me.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I really wanted to bring in on the show to
comment and help inform our community about what is really
going on when this tragic death of Matthew Perry, and
there's a lot of talk about the role of kenymine
in his death, and you know, they were even very
strong implications, like from I think it was from the
(06:46):
Los Angeles County Medical Examer's Office that said they determined
that the cause of death was the acute effects of kennemede.
You know, that creates a lot of wariness around kennymine
because most people don't stand the drug, they don't know
the origins, they don't know how safe it is, and
there's a lot of a lot more to it in
terms of, you know, how kenemine has been used and
(07:07):
what it's, what it's helpful for, and in this case,
it was clearly not being used at least we've seen
it seems like from the subsequent news that's come out
it was not being used in ethical ways. And so
could you comment a little bit about and maybe start
with updating us a little bit about where things are
at currently in this situation. Slash now investigation of the
(07:28):
folks who are working with Matthew Perry and kind of
what the impact this has had.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Sure, Yeah, yeah, Just a little background on myself. You know,
I'm also a medical doctor at twenty five year veteran anesthesiologists.
I've been using ketemine my whole career, you know. In addition,
I use ketymine as you know, to help treat mental
disease stop suicide, you know, And I work with psychiatrist
(07:55):
and psychologists like yourself in conjunction with ketymine therapy to
help people. So the whole Perry situation is giving ketymine
a black guy. Seems like any media source that can
jump on that bandwagon. It's just kind of going along
with it, saying that ketamine is a dangerous drug. It
(08:17):
you know, it should be better, it should be more
regulated so these kind of things can't happen, you know.
And it comes with people who have access to anesthetics,
especially are and when they're addicted to a substance, are
going to use it wrong. And it gives a whole name,
just a bad you know, just gives a bad name
(08:39):
to why we use it. This happened with Michael Jackson
and propofile and I just wrote that article my substack
and you know, the Perry situation is very reminiscent of
the Jackson situation. You know, they're post anesthetics. They were
both used irresponsibily, they were both addicted, and they both
(09:01):
had more than enough money to hire the right people
to keep them safe. Right at the end of the day,
the drug was used wrong in the wrong setting by
people who were not qualified to give the drug and
overlooked the environment it was given in and just completely
(09:22):
ignored the potential of what happened, and you know, the
whole So to go back to the corner report, Yeah,
he had over what we call you know, about three
thousand antagrams per milli lead concentration, which is consistent with
general anesthesia. Wow, that was at the time of his death.
You know. So what's interesting about.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
That, that's that's a coverall to the amount of ketamine
that you about somebody pushed in an operating room, Yeah,
to knock them out before going into the operating room
for surgery. Correct, Right, So, getting into getting into a
hot tub or a body of water under that any
lovel of sedation is known to be danger but under
that level of sedation where you basically lose control of
(10:03):
your body's ability to move is a really, really bad idea.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
But here is my beef with the whole foreigner situation.
I get the levels were that high, but what what
I've said from the get go that doesn't make sense
is there were no marks on his body suggesting intravenious
administration nor intramuscular administration. There was no kenemine paraphernalia found
on the premises when he when the when the police arrived,
(10:32):
he was known to have coronary stenosis of his left
anterior descending artery of over seventy percent. He had just
got done playing a couple hours of pickleball, and then
the latest, you know, in the latest news is that
he was using ketamine, I mean every day apparently. And
(10:53):
the quote from the New York Post said, he said
to his assistant, give me a big dose. You know.
It's like so obviously he's been doing this for a
long time, and he you know, we know he was
a seasoned user of ketamine and the clinics for at
least five years to my personal knowledge. But he was
clearly addicted to it, using it every day. And that's
(11:17):
just such the wrong message to put out in a
sad message, and what he did for addiction medicine and
addicts with this foundation, you know, was huge and all
that's gone now, So you know, in a sense, that's
what's really sad about.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It just adds this to the sadness of it. This
is totally avoidable, Like, this was completely avoidable because these
doses of ketamine are inherently safe when given under proper supervision,
right like in the o R. But the problem is
that there was a lot of human error introduced along
the way that resulted in this person being administered improper
(11:55):
doses of medicine on a daily basis that should not
be administered daily, a medicine that builds extreme tolerance. And
he was obviously in a lot of pain, right, Like,
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at what
Matthew Perry was going through and understand his journey a
little bit and to say and to say, hey, this
guy was probably in a lot of pain, which is
why he was numbing himself with ketamine. But it's our
(12:18):
job as clinicians to teach him how to do that
without becoming dependent on the addictive substance that could ultimately
kill you. Right if you have to use it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Right, you know that's the highlights. You have to have
therapy with this, you have to. It's just a it
goes hand in hand. I don't I don't believe in
the use of ketymine went out therapy.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
You know, Perry was once quoted saying that he didn't
like the side effects of ketamine and it felt like
he was hit with a shovel every time he used ketamine.
But he preferred that hangover effective, so to speak, being
hit by the shell rather than having to use the
(13:02):
shovel to dig his grave.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So that was in his book and I'm paraphrasing it.
But so I want to get back though to his
levels aketemene, and I think he was very used to
those levels, just like Jackson was used to his levels
of propofol. I mean, obviously, you know they both got
away with it for months to years, using it at
their homes. But the thing that still gets me is ketymine,
(13:30):
even at that dose, doesn't decrease your respirations. You know,
in fact, there's good studies to so it increases the respirations.
And let's just say, you know, he was so.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And right, which will knock out your respiration and.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Heart rate and everything, you know, and so his blood
pressure was pretty much supported, you know. And my point
is is even at that level akedemene, let's just say
he fell in the tub and started drowning. What bothers
me about this is that hypoxic response to drowning should
have overcome any effect of ketamine at least for a
(14:08):
minute to stick his head above a foot of water.
He wouldn't in that deep of water. I mean, I
could understand a deep pool, but you know, neither one
of us are there. And this is of course all speculation,
you know. It just bothers me that he was in
a jacuzzi and all he had to do was put
his head above water, maybe swallows him. But something else
(14:31):
happened at that moment where he could not do that.
Was that all ketamine euphoria or was it an attempted
suicide or you know, successful, or did he have a
heart attack at the same time, you know, or did he.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Have a vaso vagel episode right like people want Like
a lot of people don't. People don't realize that sedatives
amplify this effect. But there are a lot of people
I've had it happened to me. Where you're in a
hot tub, you're submerged even below the waist, and then
you get in above the above, and all the blood
rushes to your legs almost instantly because you're right, and
(15:10):
then all that blood leaves your brain, leaves your like
your heart gets less blood because it's all down down there,
And that could also induce a fainting episode that combined
with the ketamine, could have done it right, right, So
it's a yeah regardless. I think the important note is
that there is a preponderance evidence that would strongly counter
(15:31):
what the Los Angeles County Medical Examitor's Office has been
saying and putting out, and much of the news has
been putting out that as clinicians who work with kenemine frequently,
this cause of death is not ketamine. It was, in
fact drowning.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, that one hundred percent, just like you know, you know,
it wasn't like you know, it's not like propofol killed
Michael Jackson. It was you know the fact that you know,
Conrad Murray used to run to the mill pul suck
cimeter and you know, wasn't you bluetooth enabled and got
to him as his airway obstructed and he was hypoxymic
(16:06):
for many minutes. That's what killed him. And you know
the same thing with Harry. You know, somebody who really
would have known what they're doing, could have recognized the
science and symptoms of what he was going through, perhaps
pulled him out of exactly he resuscitated him. You can
lose your airway on Kennedy. I've seen it happen.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, So anyway, a lot of speculation there, but I think,
like you said, it's it's so important to highlight ken mean,
is a safe drug used in the proper environment by
the proper professionals and people who care about giving it
to you if anything. Yeah, I hope that's what people
(16:50):
get from discussions like ours and articles like I've written.
That's the point, you know, it's like it saves lives.
We don't have any other drugs, as you know as
a psychiatrist, that do that. There is no other drug
that can take you from an acute suicidal ideation state,
change your hope equation, and then put you somewhere else
(17:14):
that you don't want to take your own life, at
least for that point in time, and maybe get you
that life saving help you know, that's going to help
you down the road.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah. Absolutely, And that's a great segue because that, to
me is one of the most underappreciated and under talked
about things about ketamine. And it's really quite incredible, as
at least from my understanding, the only anti suicidal antidepressant
that we have that is acutely anti suicidal. And you
(17:48):
wrote a book on this that that is a wonderful.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Book, revolutionary Akedemy.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I love the spinning entry, so the Yeah, so I
think I would love to talk about that, could you.
For most people have no idea. Most people don't realize
Number one, that antidepressants, the standard run of the mili
antipressants we all take for the most part, are not
considered acutely anti suicidal agents. So what that means is
(18:16):
that you come into your doctor, you come into the hospital,
and you say, I'm feeling depressed and I'm having these
thoughts about wanting to hurt myself, and the doctor will
often start you on a typical SSRI or tricyclic or
other more new or antidepressant, and that's usually the first line,
and even before talk therapy, which should be the first line,
and those do not have any significant benefit towards decreasing
(18:40):
suicidal thoughts expected for about twelve weeks. At twelve weeks,
and sometimes people don't have benefit for much much longer.
Ketamine with a single injection in somebody who comes into
the emergency room or a clinic acutely suicidal can have
a benefit of relieving their suicidal thoughts in their urge
(19:01):
to commit suicide for two weeks more and in some
cases without any therapy, but seemingly much better with therapy.
Could you talk a little bit about how this was
discovered if you if you remember the story.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
And yeah, yeah, history of it. Your revolutionary ketemye and
it's you know, it's a it's a derivative of angel
does as you know, you know PCP or finn cyclidinge,
which was used in operating rooms in the in the
late fifties and sixties. However, the close operative delirium was
so bad with that drug that the anti caesiologist so
(19:36):
we can't deal with this. We need another form of this.
It works great as an anesthetic, but you know, the
nightmares and bad side effects were just too much.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So the MCP delirium is real scary, very scary.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So ketamine was discovered because of the need to find
a new anesthetic from finn cyclody and basically it coincided
with the Vietnam War, so they developed ketamine. Ketamine was
kind of looked at as a research drug, but then
once they found out you know, it could be it
(20:11):
was a great anesthetic because you didn't need to support
somebody's respiratory you don't need to support somebody's blood pressure
so much, and it can be given without oxygen. It
makes it the ideal drug to be or anesthetic to
be used in rural areas. And then it happened to
be so in the Vietnam War, as you know, so
(20:34):
it was considered a buddy drug. You know, so if
your fellow soldier was injured, they could be given ketamine
reliably dissociate them from the trauma and get them to
safety without worrying about their breathing and you know, depending
on the wound, of course, but you know, their blood
(20:54):
pressure wouldn't suffer too much. Say is if you know
morphine right, they went into shock correct. Then it was
realized in the seventies it really gained traction in pediatric
anesthesia because you know, in anesthesia, especially in pediatrics. A
breathing patient is an alive patient. You wouldn't believe how
(21:16):
important that becomes in the operating room. We don't paralyze everybody.
So ketamine was known because it did not affect the
respirations as bad as other anesthetics, and so it became
very popular up until the advent of propofol, which most
people know. And then once propofol came around, you know,
that's just it's a more pleasant experience. It comes on
(21:42):
and off faster, doesn't have the risk of post operative
delirium with high doses of ketamine. But you know, ketymine
is still given every day in the operating room. And
finally in the nineties the British team found that ketymine
was helpful for this was like bulimia and anorexia. And
(22:03):
then that got to the Yale guys. So we're talking
John Crystal, doctor Birdman and all this stuff. And then
they showed that it helped depression, and then they showed
it helped suicide. And then the nih was so flustered.
Thomas Enzel told me the story. They were so flustered
that they did a will to live, a will to
(22:24):
die study, and they couldn't believe the results that how
kenymine increased the will to live side of the study
so much that the fact that ketymine stopped suicide became
undeniable at that point, And that's when you started seeing
this increase in mental health practitioners using ketamine kind of
(22:48):
the way it is now. I mean, you have to
realize it's still not FDA approved, so to speak, for
mental health purposes, but the effects are so obvious and
it's the only drug you know that we have. And
Thomas Insol again his quote was that ketamine is the
most significant discovery in fifty years for combating suicide.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
You're listening to the psychedelic report. That's incredible. And for
those who don't know Tom insult, thomasul is the former
head of the National in Suits of Health, right correct,
So it's a big statement coming from the former head
of the National Institutes of Health that ketamine is the
biggest discovery in the area of suicide in the last
fifty years. They fund most of that research. So you know,
(23:36):
I think the two things I want to ask you
is about that will to Live Will to die study?
Number one, can you send that to me.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Sure I reference is in the book, for sure? Yeah,
I would.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I would love to check that out. I've never actually
read at firsthand. And number two, what year was that.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh to early two thousands, two thousand and six or seven,
if I'm not maybe late two thousand something like that.
It was after the Berman, it was after the Crystal
and Bergman studies.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
At you right, I just want to reiterate the synopsis
of what you described, which is that as of the
early two thousands, we're talking like almost twenty years ago,
if not twenty years ago, it was undeniable that ketamine
had distinct and significant therapeutic effects in the way of
(24:27):
reducing suicidal ideation and symptoms of depression.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Well as a a fun aside. It was even known
in the seventies. So there's a there's an article by
doctor Domino. He was a pharmacist who specialized in mental
health and even help run a clinic. And there's an
article called Taming the Ketymine Tiger, and it's it's by
(24:52):
Edward Domino in the seventies. And his exact quote, if
I recall, was that he had a patient who was
addicted to fen cyclidine and ketamine at that time, and
he asked the patient. He says, why are you addicted
to this? What's the catch? And the patient says to him, Oh,
(25:12):
that's easy, doctor, I've been on antide depressants for years,
but they don't work. Ketamine it works. Because he asked, like,
why did you stop your antidepressants, and it's because the
ketamine worked so much better for her. And that article
was in nineteen seventy two. I think. So we've known
(25:33):
about the mental health benefits of things like ketamine for
a long time. But let's remember, you know, all that
research was squashed in a sense or suppressed with the
advent of you know, Nixon in his war on psychedelics.
And I think that was one of the big things
why it took so long for ketymine to kind of
(25:56):
come out of its shell and be what it is today.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It's really interesting and I think just to drive everybody's
attention to how long it takes to get great discoveries
from the bench to the bedside, right, even like, this
is an incredible discovery, incredible discovery. The former head of
the ANIMH has admitted this is an incredible discovery. And
(26:22):
yet as a society, as a medical community. We have
still struggled to provide ketamine as a early line antidepressant treatment,
and we've really struggled with guidelines around how to do
that safely for patients so that it can be scaled
more effectively throughout the psychiatry community, right because right now,
(26:46):
I mean, I would venture to say probably like ninety
percent of psychiatrists and don't do ketymine work. But Thomas
Insel has said as you said, and that evidence is
undeniable from these studies and proposals from the seventies. But
you know, going to Yale's work in the early two thousands,
right that we know that this is effective, extremely effective
(27:08):
for depression and suicidality, and yet the psychiatry community is
very very behind on this and patients are more in
need than ever. You know, do you see any opportunities
for how we can as a community, as a field,
do a better job of bringing this medicine to the
community at scale safely.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah. I think it's happening through people like Robert F.
Kennedy right now at the top. You know, people like
that need to get behind psychedelics for the use of
mental health disorders, and you need to see this shouted
from the rooftops from our politicians. Every president, including the
(27:50):
current have had task courses for suicide. Yeah, the rate
of suicide has only gone up almost more than fifty
thousand people per year, and as you know it, you know,
it dips down into the thirty thousands. I mean, but
come on, I mean, tens of thousands of people and
we can't we can't help them. So whatever we're doing
(28:12):
I don't think is you know, it's a hard question.
It goes exactly into what you're asking. So where does
it need to come from? I think it needs to
come from the acceptance of government officials, politicians, business people,
small business owners. It needs to come from the acceptance
of parents. If a parent thought and could recognize the
(28:37):
signs of their child wanting to take their own life,
what parent wouldn't use a kat mean to at least
give it a shot. And I have received hundreds of
emails exactly in that manner, so that those are some
of the arguments I make in the Revolutionary Akedemy. But
you know, I think that's where it's it's ultimately going
(29:01):
to come from. And make no mistake, very influential people
have all a lot of them have tried ketamine, I
mean elon musk Ke.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Mean use is extremely common right.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Now, extremely common. Yeah, yeah, So I think we're we're
at a better place than we were ten years ago
with it, and I just hope the trend keeps going
and things like you and I are doing helped get
past these black eyes of the Matthew Perry story for example.
You know, we can take two steps back and then
(29:34):
you know, and then hopefully four to five steps forward.
You know. It's just it's going to take those kinds
of efforts, you know, to further the cause, I think,
and at the end of the day, save lives. That's
what it does. You know, everybody it's not the panacea,
but for a lot of people, it is the difference,
you know.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, absolutely, And it's you know, it's really encouraging to
hear that from another practitioner who's actively doing this work
and who's been doing this work for with ketamine for
longer than most people that I know, And so I
really just appreciate you and and all your hard works,
sharing the knowledge and the wisdom that we've learned from
(30:12):
the medical community about how powerful this medicine is, how
safe the medicine is when used properly, and you know
what the real potential of it is to transform the
mental health space and the way we look at psychiatric disorders,
because that's really what it's doing. And you know, if
Tom Insel can can get it, you know, I think
anybody can, right. So, I mean those are big words
(30:35):
that most people have not heard from him, right, They
don't really people don't realize that the head of the
NIH has recognized Kennemine as being this important, right So
I think that's that's great. You know, it's great to
be reminded of that as we wrap this conversation. And
would you mind sharing just to wrap up, would you
mind just sharing with people where they can find you
(30:56):
your book and if you want people to follow up
with you?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, yeah, just actually you can Jonathan Edwards zimd dot com,
Jonathan's bed with an h so at John Edwards zimd
on most social media, you know, my ex Instagram and
things like that. I actually just put out for National
Suicide Awareness Day yesterday. I put out a couple of
(31:20):
videos and some articles on my substack apparently have gone
very well. Yeah, and I'm reachable, you know, so I'm
happy to happy to help where I can, and that's
where you can find me.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Doctor Jonathan Edwards, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Thanks for listening to The Psychedelic Report. Visit us at
the Psychedelic Report dot com. This show is recorded weekly
on Clubhouse with a live audience. The Psychedelic Report was
brought to you by a poly neuroscience and produced by
Future Medicine Media. Will I am a doctor, I'm not
(32:00):
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The Psychedelic Report as personal medical advice because we don't
know you. If you have questions about anything you hear
on this show, please consult with your doctor.
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The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
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Speaker 1 (00:57):
The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
your host, doctor Dave raven I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MBMA assisted therapy.
(01:21):
Today we discussed the uses of the medicine ketamine and
its safety profile in the context of Matthew Perry's tragic
death from the news media describing the situation. There is
a lot of misinformation about ketamine that has surfaced in
the public eye. A number of articles have come out
(01:43):
over the last several weeks discussing the risks of ketymine
and how ketamine was responsible for Matthew Perry's death, including
one article by Andrew Kine on CNN Health entitled has
Ketamine's time of Reckoning Arrived? Five Things to know after
Matthew Perry's death. Matthew Perry was a strong advocate for
(02:07):
folks struggling with addiction, and it is very clear to
anyone who works with ketamine as a clinician in the
clinical environment that Matthew Perry's care was clearly mismanaged by
those clinicians who were providing him said care. This creates
a real issue in the field of mental health where
(02:30):
ketamine is entering mental health and treatment as one of
the leading anti suicidal antidepressants that, when administered properly, is
extraordinarily safe and a powerful tool for helping those with
depression recover. Interestingly, it is also one of the only
antidepressants that has almost immediate anti suicidal effects. Those who
(02:55):
work with ketamine are also aware that in the proper
doses I mean, is an extremely safe medication when administered correctly. However,
the media and the way that the media in general
has approached this topic, not to mention the Los Angeles
County Medical Examiner's Office, who determined that the cause of
(03:16):
death were the acute effects of ketymine rather than drowning,
really cast a shadow on the use of this powerful
medicine in mental health patients. To break down this topic
and to really understand what happened to Matthew Perry, we
have a very special guest today who's really one of
(03:37):
the nations leading experts and physicians treating patients with ketemine.
That guest is doctor Jonathan Edwards. Doctor Edwards is an
antithesiologist and medical practitioner specializing in human health and optimization.
He is perhaps best known for treating mental health conditions
with kenemine, a dissociative anesthetic that is used for general anesthesia,
(04:02):
pain management, and depression. Doctor Edwards also uses ketamine to
help adolescents overcome depression and suicidal ideation. In today's interview,
we talk about his new book, The Revolutionary Ketamine, The
safe drug that effectively treats depression and prevents suicide. More
Americans have died from suicide than all wars since Vietnam.
(04:26):
The suicide rate among ten to twenty four year olds
in this country increase sixty two percent from two thousand
and seven through twenty twenty one. As doctor Edwards points
out in today's discussion, most people are not aware that
American children between the ages of ten and fourteen are
twice as likely to die from suicide than homicide. Doctor
(04:48):
Edwards explains that suicide is a pressing problem in America.
He also points out that police and firefighters are more
likely to die from suicide than in the line of duty.
This is a figure. Doctor Edwards then gives an overview
of ketamine and its ability to help treat depression suicidal thoughts.
Doctor Edwards pivots to mention the dark side of ketymine,
(05:10):
including ketemine misuse in overdose. Recent studies have reported a
worldwide increase in ketemine misuse and overdoses. Back in October,
Matthew Perry, one of the stars of the popular sitcom Friends,
died from what the Los Angeles coroner described as the
acute effects of ketymine. Because this was such a high
(05:32):
profile case, Doctor Edwards gave his opinion on what happened
to Matthew Perry and discuss the potential adverse effects of ketemine.
Doctor Edwards is a Board certified antiseesiologist who treats chronic
pain patients. He is the author of several books and
medical papers, including The Revolutionary Ketemine, Stopping Pain, Chasing Dukhar Suicide,
(05:55):
COVID nineteen Ketamine, and The Science of the Maratha On.
He practices medicine in Las Vegas, Nevada, and Port Orange, Florida.
Doctor Jonathan Edwards, thank you so much for taking the
time to join us today to discuss this rather sad
and timely topic around the uses of kennymine as a
(06:19):
medicine and the misuses in this particular case.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh, it's good to see you again, Dave. Thanks for
having me.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I really wanted to bring in on the show to
comment and help inform our community about what is really
going on when this tragic death of Matthew Perry, and
there's a lot of talk about the role of kenymine
in his death, and you know, they were even very
strong implications, like from I think it was from the
(06:46):
Los Angeles County Medical Examer's Office that said they determined
that the cause of death was the acute effects of kennemede.
You know, that creates a lot of wariness around kennymine
because most people don't stand the drug, they don't know
the origins, they don't know how safe it is, and
there's a lot of a lot more to it in
terms of, you know, how kenemine has been used and
(07:07):
what it's, what it's helpful for, and in this case,
it was clearly not being used at least we've seen
it seems like from the subsequent news that's come out
it was not being used in ethical ways. And so
could you comment a little bit about and maybe start
with updating us a little bit about where things are
at currently in this situation. Slash now investigation of the
(07:28):
folks who are working with Matthew Perry and kind of
what the impact this has had.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Sure, Yeah, yeah, Just a little background on myself. You know,
I'm also a medical doctor at twenty five year veteran anesthesiologists.
I've been using ketemine my whole career, you know. In addition,
I use ketymine as you know, to help treat mental
disease stop suicide, you know, And I work with psychiatrist
(07:55):
and psychologists like yourself in conjunction with ketymine therapy to
help people. So the whole Perry situation is giving ketymine
a black guy. Seems like any media source that can
jump on that bandwagon. It's just kind of going along
with it, saying that ketamine is a dangerous drug. It
(08:17):
you know, it should be better, it should be more
regulated so these kind of things can't happen, you know.
And it comes with people who have access to anesthetics,
especially are and when they're addicted to a substance, are
going to use it wrong. And it gives a whole name,
just a bad you know, just gives a bad name
(08:39):
to why we use it. This happened with Michael Jackson
and propofile and I just wrote that article my substack
and you know, the Perry situation is very reminiscent of
the Jackson situation. You know, they're post anesthetics. They were
both used irresponsibily, they were both addicted, and they both
(09:01):
had more than enough money to hire the right people
to keep them safe. Right at the end of the day,
the drug was used wrong in the wrong setting by
people who were not qualified to give the drug and
overlooked the environment it was given in and just completely
(09:22):
ignored the potential of what happened, and you know, the
whole So to go back to the corner report, Yeah,
he had over what we call you know, about three
thousand antagrams per milli lead concentration, which is consistent with
general anesthesia. Wow, that was at the time of his death.
You know. So what's interesting about.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
That, that's that's a coverall to the amount of ketamine
that you about somebody pushed in an operating room, Yeah,
to knock them out before going into the operating room
for surgery. Correct, Right, So, getting into getting into a
hot tub or a body of water under that any
lovel of sedation is known to be danger but under
that level of sedation where you basically lose control of
(10:03):
your body's ability to move is a really, really bad idea.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
But here is my beef with the whole foreigner situation.
I get the levels were that high, but what what
I've said from the get go that doesn't make sense
is there were no marks on his body suggesting intravenious
administration nor intramuscular administration. There was no kenemine paraphernalia found
on the premises when he when the when the police arrived,
(10:32):
he was known to have coronary stenosis of his left
anterior descending artery of over seventy percent. He had just
got done playing a couple hours of pickleball, and then
the latest, you know, in the latest news is that
he was using ketamine, I mean every day apparently. And
(10:53):
the quote from the New York Post said, he said
to his assistant, give me a big dose. You know.
It's like so obviously he's been doing this for a
long time, and he you know, we know he was
a seasoned user of ketamine and the clinics for at
least five years to my personal knowledge. But he was
clearly addicted to it, using it every day. And that's
(11:17):
just such the wrong message to put out in a
sad message, and what he did for addiction medicine and
addicts with this foundation, you know, was huge and all
that's gone now, So you know, in a sense, that's
what's really sad about.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It just adds this to the sadness of it. This
is totally avoidable, Like, this was completely avoidable because these
doses of ketamine are inherently safe when given under proper supervision,
right like in the o R. But the problem is
that there was a lot of human error introduced along
the way that resulted in this person being administered improper
(11:55):
doses of medicine on a daily basis that should not
be administered daily, a medicine that builds extreme tolerance. And
he was obviously in a lot of pain, right, Like,
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at what
Matthew Perry was going through and understand his journey a
little bit and to say and to say, hey, this
guy was probably in a lot of pain, which is
why he was numbing himself with ketamine. But it's our
(12:18):
job as clinicians to teach him how to do that
without becoming dependent on the addictive substance that could ultimately
kill you. Right if you have to use it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Right, you know that's the highlights. You have to have
therapy with this, you have to. It's just a it
goes hand in hand. I don't I don't believe in
the use of ketymine went out therapy.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
You know, Perry was once quoted saying that he didn't
like the side effects of ketamine and it felt like
he was hit with a shovel every time he used ketamine.
But he preferred that hangover effective, so to speak, being
hit by the shell rather than having to use the
(13:02):
shovel to dig his grave.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So that was in his book and I'm paraphrasing it.
But so I want to get back though to his
levels aketemene, and I think he was very used to
those levels, just like Jackson was used to his levels
of propofol. I mean, obviously, you know they both got
away with it for months to years, using it at
their homes. But the thing that still gets me is ketymine,
(13:30):
even at that dose, doesn't decrease your respirations. You know,
in fact, there's good studies to so it increases the respirations.
And let's just say, you know, he was so.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And right, which will knock out your respiration and.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Heart rate and everything, you know, and so his blood
pressure was pretty much supported, you know. And my point
is is even at that level akedemene, let's just say
he fell in the tub and started drowning. What bothers
me about this is that hypoxic response to drowning should
have overcome any effect of ketamine at least for a
(14:08):
minute to stick his head above a foot of water.
He wouldn't in that deep of water. I mean, I
could understand a deep pool, but you know, neither one
of us are there. And this is of course all speculation,
you know. It just bothers me that he was in
a jacuzzi and all he had to do was put
his head above water, maybe swallows him. But something else
(14:31):
happened at that moment where he could not do that.
Was that all ketamine euphoria or was it an attempted
suicide or you know, successful, or did he have a
heart attack at the same time, you know, or did he.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Have a vaso vagel episode right like people want Like
a lot of people don't. People don't realize that sedatives
amplify this effect. But there are a lot of people
I've had it happened to me. Where you're in a
hot tub, you're submerged even below the waist, and then
you get in above the above, and all the blood
rushes to your legs almost instantly because you're right, and
(15:10):
then all that blood leaves your brain, leaves your like
your heart gets less blood because it's all down down there,
And that could also induce a fainting episode that combined
with the ketamine, could have done it right, right, So
it's a yeah regardless. I think the important note is
that there is a preponderance evidence that would strongly counter
(15:31):
what the Los Angeles County Medical Examitor's Office has been
saying and putting out, and much of the news has
been putting out that as clinicians who work with kenemine frequently,
this cause of death is not ketamine. It was, in
fact drowning.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, that one hundred percent, just like you know, you know,
it wasn't like you know, it's not like propofol killed
Michael Jackson. It was you know the fact that you know,
Conrad Murray used to run to the mill pul suck
cimeter and you know, wasn't you bluetooth enabled and got
to him as his airway obstructed and he was hypoxymic
(16:06):
for many minutes. That's what killed him. And you know
the same thing with Harry. You know, somebody who really
would have known what they're doing, could have recognized the
science and symptoms of what he was going through, perhaps
pulled him out of exactly he resuscitated him. You can
lose your airway on Kennedy. I've seen it happen.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, So anyway, a lot of speculation there, but I think,
like you said, it's it's so important to highlight ken mean,
is a safe drug used in the proper environment by
the proper professionals and people who care about giving it
to you if anything. Yeah, I hope that's what people
(16:50):
get from discussions like ours and articles like I've written.
That's the point, you know, it's like it saves lives.
We don't have any other drugs, as you know as
a psychiatrist, that do that. There is no other drug
that can take you from an acute suicidal ideation state,
change your hope equation, and then put you somewhere else
(17:14):
that you don't want to take your own life, at
least for that point in time, and maybe get you
that life saving help you know, that's going to help
you down the road.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah. Absolutely, And that's a great segue because that, to
me is one of the most underappreciated and under talked
about things about ketamine. And it's really quite incredible, as
at least from my understanding, the only anti suicidal antidepressant
that we have that is acutely anti suicidal. And you
(17:48):
wrote a book on this that that is a wonderful.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Book, revolutionary Akedemy.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I love the spinning entry, so the Yeah, so I
think I would love to talk about that, could you.
For most people have no idea. Most people don't realize
Number one, that antidepressants, the standard run of the mili
antipressants we all take for the most part, are not
considered acutely anti suicidal agents. So what that means is
(18:16):
that you come into your doctor, you come into the hospital,
and you say, I'm feeling depressed and I'm having these
thoughts about wanting to hurt myself, and the doctor will
often start you on a typical SSRI or tricyclic or
other more new or antidepressant, and that's usually the first line,
and even before talk therapy, which should be the first line,
and those do not have any significant benefit towards decreasing
(18:40):
suicidal thoughts expected for about twelve weeks. At twelve weeks,
and sometimes people don't have benefit for much much longer.
Ketamine with a single injection in somebody who comes into
the emergency room or a clinic acutely suicidal can have
a benefit of relieving their suicidal thoughts in their urge
(19:01):
to commit suicide for two weeks more and in some
cases without any therapy, but seemingly much better with therapy.
Could you talk a little bit about how this was
discovered if you if you remember the story.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
And yeah, yeah, history of it. Your revolutionary ketemye and
it's you know, it's a it's a derivative of angel
does as you know, you know PCP or finn cyclidinge,
which was used in operating rooms in the in the
late fifties and sixties. However, the close operative delirium was
so bad with that drug that the anti caesiologist so
(19:36):
we can't deal with this. We need another form of this.
It works great as an anesthetic, but you know, the
nightmares and bad side effects were just too much.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So the MCP delirium is real scary, very scary.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So ketamine was discovered because of the need to find
a new anesthetic from finn cyclody and basically it coincided
with the Vietnam War, so they developed ketamine. Ketamine was
kind of looked at as a research drug, but then
once they found out you know, it could be it
(20:11):
was a great anesthetic because you didn't need to support
somebody's respiratory you don't need to support somebody's blood pressure
so much, and it can be given without oxygen. It
makes it the ideal drug to be or anesthetic to
be used in rural areas. And then it happened to
be so in the Vietnam War, as you know, so
(20:34):
it was considered a buddy drug. You know, so if
your fellow soldier was injured, they could be given ketamine
reliably dissociate them from the trauma and get them to
safety without worrying about their breathing and you know, depending
on the wound, of course, but you know, their blood
(20:54):
pressure wouldn't suffer too much. Say is if you know
morphine right, they went into shock correct. Then it was
realized in the seventies it really gained traction in pediatric
anesthesia because you know, in anesthesia, especially in pediatrics. A
breathing patient is an alive patient. You wouldn't believe how
(21:16):
important that becomes in the operating room. We don't paralyze everybody.
So ketamine was known because it did not affect the
respirations as bad as other anesthetics, and so it became
very popular up until the advent of propofol, which most
people know. And then once propofol came around, you know,
that's just it's a more pleasant experience. It comes on
(21:42):
and off faster, doesn't have the risk of post operative
delirium with high doses of ketamine. But you know, ketymine
is still given every day in the operating room. And
finally in the nineties the British team found that ketymine
was helpful for this was like bulimia and anorexia. And
(22:03):
then that got to the Yale guys. So we're talking
John Crystal, doctor Birdman and all this stuff. And then
they showed that it helped depression, and then they showed
it helped suicide. And then the nih was so flustered.
Thomas Enzel told me the story. They were so flustered
that they did a will to live, a will to
(22:24):
die study, and they couldn't believe the results that how
kenymine increased the will to live side of the study
so much that the fact that ketymine stopped suicide became
undeniable at that point, And that's when you started seeing
this increase in mental health practitioners using ketamine kind of
(22:48):
the way it is now. I mean, you have to
realize it's still not FDA approved, so to speak, for
mental health purposes, but the effects are so obvious and
it's the only drug you know that we have. And
Thomas Insol again his quote was that ketamine is the
most significant discovery in fifty years for combating suicide.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
You're listening to the psychedelic report. That's incredible. And for
those who don't know Tom insult, thomasul is the former
head of the National in Suits of Health, right correct,
So it's a big statement coming from the former head
of the National Institutes of Health that ketamine is the
biggest discovery in the area of suicide in the last
fifty years. They fund most of that research. So you know,
(23:36):
I think the two things I want to ask you
is about that will to Live Will to die study?
Number one, can you send that to me.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Sure I reference is in the book, for sure? Yeah,
I would.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I would love to check that out. I've never actually
read at firsthand. And number two, what year was that.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh to early two thousands, two thousand and six or seven,
if I'm not maybe late two thousand something like that.
It was after the Berman, it was after the Crystal
and Bergman studies.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
At you right, I just want to reiterate the synopsis
of what you described, which is that as of the
early two thousands, we're talking like almost twenty years ago,
if not twenty years ago, it was undeniable that ketamine
had distinct and significant therapeutic effects in the way of
(24:27):
reducing suicidal ideation and symptoms of depression.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Well as a a fun aside. It was even known
in the seventies. So there's a there's an article by
doctor Domino. He was a pharmacist who specialized in mental
health and even help run a clinic. And there's an
article called Taming the Ketymine Tiger, and it's it's by
(24:52):
Edward Domino in the seventies. And his exact quote, if
I recall, was that he had a patient who was
addicted to fen cyclidine and ketamine at that time, and
he asked the patient. He says, why are you addicted
to this? What's the catch? And the patient says to him, Oh,
(25:12):
that's easy, doctor, I've been on antide depressants for years,
but they don't work. Ketamine it works. Because he asked, like,
why did you stop your antidepressants, and it's because the
ketamine worked so much better for her. And that article
was in nineteen seventy two. I think. So we've known
(25:33):
about the mental health benefits of things like ketamine for
a long time. But let's remember, you know, all that
research was squashed in a sense or suppressed with the
advent of you know, Nixon in his war on psychedelics.
And I think that was one of the big things
why it took so long for ketymine to kind of
(25:56):
come out of its shell and be what it is today.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It's really interesting and I think just to drive everybody's
attention to how long it takes to get great discoveries
from the bench to the bedside, right, even like, this
is an incredible discovery, incredible discovery. The former head of
the ANIMH has admitted this is an incredible discovery. And
(26:22):
yet as a society, as a medical community. We have
still struggled to provide ketamine as a early line antidepressant treatment,
and we've really struggled with guidelines around how to do
that safely for patients so that it can be scaled
more effectively throughout the psychiatry community, right because right now,
(26:46):
I mean, I would venture to say probably like ninety
percent of psychiatrists and don't do ketymine work. But Thomas
Insel has said as you said, and that evidence is
undeniable from these studies and proposals from the seventies. But
you know, going to Yale's work in the early two thousands,
right that we know that this is effective, extremely effective
(27:08):
for depression and suicidality, and yet the psychiatry community is
very very behind on this and patients are more in
need than ever. You know, do you see any opportunities
for how we can as a community, as a field,
do a better job of bringing this medicine to the
community at scale safely.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah. I think it's happening through people like Robert F.
Kennedy right now at the top. You know, people like
that need to get behind psychedelics for the use of
mental health disorders, and you need to see this shouted
from the rooftops from our politicians. Every president, including the
(27:50):
current have had task courses for suicide. Yeah, the rate
of suicide has only gone up almost more than fifty
thousand people per year, and as you know it, you know,
it dips down into the thirty thousands. I mean, but
come on, I mean, tens of thousands of people and
we can't we can't help them. So whatever we're doing
(28:12):
I don't think is you know, it's a hard question.
It goes exactly into what you're asking. So where does
it need to come from? I think it needs to
come from the acceptance of government officials, politicians, business people,
small business owners. It needs to come from the acceptance
of parents. If a parent thought and could recognize the
(28:37):
signs of their child wanting to take their own life,
what parent wouldn't use a kat mean to at least
give it a shot. And I have received hundreds of
emails exactly in that manner, so that those are some
of the arguments I make in the Revolutionary Akedemy. But
you know, I think that's where it's it's ultimately going
(29:01):
to come from. And make no mistake, very influential people
have all a lot of them have tried ketamine, I
mean elon musk Ke.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Mean use is extremely common right.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Now, extremely common. Yeah, yeah, So I think we're we're
at a better place than we were ten years ago
with it, and I just hope the trend keeps going
and things like you and I are doing helped get
past these black eyes of the Matthew Perry story for example.
You know, we can take two steps back and then
(29:34):
you know, and then hopefully four to five steps forward.
You know. It's just it's going to take those kinds
of efforts, you know, to further the cause, I think,
and at the end of the day, save lives. That's
what it does. You know, everybody it's not the panacea,
but for a lot of people, it is the difference,
you know.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, absolutely, And it's you know, it's really encouraging to
hear that from another practitioner who's actively doing this work
and who's been doing this work for with ketamine for
longer than most people that I know, And so I
really just appreciate you and and all your hard works,
sharing the knowledge and the wisdom that we've learned from
(30:12):
the medical community about how powerful this medicine is, how
safe the medicine is when used properly, and you know
what the real potential of it is to transform the
mental health space and the way we look at psychiatric disorders,
because that's really what it's doing. And you know, if
Tom Insel can can get it, you know, I think
anybody can, right. So, I mean those are big words
(30:35):
that most people have not heard from him, right, They
don't really people don't realize that the head of the
NIH has recognized Kennemine as being this important, right So
I think that's that's great. You know, it's great to
be reminded of that as we wrap this conversation. And
would you mind sharing just to wrap up, would you
mind just sharing with people where they can find you
(30:56):
your book and if you want people to follow up
with you?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, yeah, just actually you can Jonathan Edwards zimd dot com,
Jonathan's bed with an h so at John Edwards zimd
on most social media, you know, my ex Instagram and
things like that. I actually just put out for National
Suicide Awareness Day yesterday. I put out a couple of
(31:20):
videos and some articles on my substack apparently have gone
very well. Yeah, and I'm reachable, you know, so I'm
happy to happy to help where I can, and that's
where you can find me.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Doctor Jonathan Edwards, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Thanks for listening to The Psychedelic Report. Visit us at
the Psychedelic Report dot com. This show is recorded weekly
on Clubhouse with a live audience. The Psychedelic Report was
brought to you by a poly neuroscience and produced by
Future Medicine Media. Will I am a doctor, I'm not
(32:00):
your doctor, so please don't take anything you hear on
The Psychedelic Report as personal medical advice because we don't
know you. If you have questions about anything you hear
on this show, please consult with your doctor.
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