“It’s the Hope That Kills You” – Lessons from Ted Lasso

They say, “It’s the hope that kills you.” But Ted Lasso, and maybe the Gospel, would disagree.

This week on The Pulpit & Porch, Robert finally gets his wish: Tony watched Ted Lasso. And not only did he love it, he found a sermon hiding inside a soccer (or football) match. From the locker room to the living room, we’re unpacking what hope really means, why it’s so hard to hold onto, how it shapes our faith, and why sometimes it hurts before it heals.

Along the way, we talk about the difference between fragile hope and grounded hope, what we’ve learned from past guests like Jodi Ramey and Andrew Carrier, and how to keep hoping when life doesn’t play by the rules.

Whether you’re a Ted Lasso superfan or just someone who needs a reminder that hope still wins, pull up a chair, grab a biscuit, and join us on the porch.

Follow @ThePulpitAndPorch on Facebook & Instagram for more honest, hope-filled conversations.

#ThePulpitAndPorch #TedLasso #Hope #Faith #Podcast #Encouragement #ChristianPodcast #LifeLessons #Leadership #Perseverance #HopeWins

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
It's the hope that kills you. I love that quote, and not just
because it really challenges me to think about some things, but
it is a line that comes from what I think is maybe one of the
most well written TV shows that has ever been put out.
And if you've listened to our show for a while, you know that
I have been begging Tony to watch Ted Lasso for, I think the

(00:22):
entirety of the time that I havebeen on the show.
And it finally happened. He finally broke down, saw an
episode, and he has dove in and finished that first season.
And it's not just the show, and it's not just the optimism and
it's the humor or, you know, thebiscuits.
It's just a great, great show. But there's something about the

(00:44):
way that all of those lines cometogether that make us just have
a sense of hope, a sense of longing for something that we
can step into that means so muchmore than we ever thought it
could. So today, that's what we're
talking about. We're talking about hope from
the perspective of a mustache football coach from America, a

(01:04):
Brit saying it's the hope that kills you and what we can all
learn about living with hope in our everyday lives.
So grab a cup of coffee or maybesome tea and a biscuit if you've
got one, and settle in. We're talking about why hope
matters, how it shapes us, and what Ted Lasso can teach us
about living with a little more faith and a lot more laughter.

(01:26):
Welcome to the Pulpit and Porch.I'm Tony Maher and with me, as
always, is my friend Robert Kell.
Hey everybody, we are so glad you're here.
The pulpit and porch is where wekick back, put up our feet and
have real conversations about life, faith, growth, and maybe
even a little sports and pop culture.
If you're looking for a perfectly polished sermon,
you're probably in the wrong place.
Yeah, around here it's more about those honest heart to

(01:47):
heart conversations, like the one you have on a front porch
with good friends. Sometimes we stay on track,
sometimes we take the same group.
And honestly, that's half the fun, isn't it?
We dig into the highs, the lows,and all the in betweens of
living out your faith in real life.
Along the way, we may pull up a few extra chairs and invite some
friends under the porch to sharestories and ideas that just may
change the way that you see things.

(02:07):
So whether you're chasing your purpose, building your faith, or
just trying to live a little more fully, pull up a chair,
grab some sweet tea, and join us.
This is the pulpit and porch we got to see waiting for you.
I've been a bachelor the last week.

(02:30):
Did you watch season 2 of Ted Lasser?
I did not, but I finished season1 you.
Did finish over. The weekend and I'm sitting
there on I guess it was Saturdaywhen the final episode of season
1 came on and I saw the title ofthe episode and it immediately
hit me so I'm sitting there and I'm watching and going through
the episode and there I don't want to give any spoilers but

(02:51):
there's. Five years old, Six, almost 6,
and that's 5 1/2. And I'm sure you've dropped a
lot of spoilers over the years with me that I just didn't
retain pain as I was watching itbecause nothing has triggered
anything in my watching of the the first season.
But they're going into the last game of the season and they're
playing Manchester, which is a big power man.
City. Man City, because there's

(03:13):
another Manchester team. Manchester.
United, yeah, OK. I didn't know there was also a
Man City so I'm not up on my EPL.
And so that Man City that is like my middle son who is soccer
crazy, that is his team. He loves those guys.
And I'm a Man City fan right nowbecause of their coach.
You, you got to see Pep Guardiola in the, I think it's

(03:33):
how you say his last name. I'm not very good with all that
pronunciation stuff, but he was the coach that was in the show
as well. And I love.
And so I'm a Pep fan. So wherever he coaches is where
I'll be rooting for. All right, so you're about the
name on the back of the jersey, not the name on the front of?
The jersey? No, I'm about the coach, all
right. That's very different.
I could careless. But I don't understand.

(03:53):
So I played soccer for about 8-9years.
I still couldn't explain to you offsides, much like Ted Lasso.
And what I didn't get in the show is that so Jamie, the star
player, then gets claimed back by Man City.
I don't understand how one of the best players in All Star MVP
candidate is on loan to another team that you're playing
against. My thought was that Man City was

(04:16):
in a lower league or maybe a higher league, but yet they were
the Premier League and so I didn't quite understand all of
that dynamic. How then he they're playing
against them in this last game of the season when he was
playing for them, he wasn't traded.
He was claimed back because he was on loan.
I didn't get any of that but anyways the I would.
Say we do not have time for thatconversation.

(04:38):
I would love to explain all of that to you.
And the Premier League along with La Liga are are kind of
like the top things. But then there's the Champions
League and all these other like that's nothing.
I mean, that is such a joke and there's actually a conversation
around on an entire another league forming inside of the US.
The MLS is talking about aligning their schedule to

(05:01):
European in a more international.
Schedule Have you heard of Messi?
I have and he's the best player in a trash league and anybody's
welcome to e-mail in on that andI'll have that conversation.
I mean, I don't care. I mean, I mean, I'm not saying
I'm not, I'm not as good as any of those players, but I'm also
not want to be a professional footballer.

(05:21):
And and so like for me like that, it's it's there is.
You're in America, Say soccer. I honestly, I've spent way more
time around international players and coaches than I have
American players and coaches in my kids time of playing.
All three of my boys played played soccer locally here and

(05:43):
they have all played in that in that space.
And most of their coaches were not from these your parts.
They've had quite a few people invest from them.
They're international coaches. And then when I worked with the
in photography world, I worked with a local semi pro kind of
USL team that that was vast majority of it was half the

(06:03):
players were international. And so I think we had 19
countries one year that were involved or 2020.
I think the most we've had was like 21 or 22.
And so we had vast those times, like 18 or 19 countries and it
was awesome. And we had a kid one year, they
called him the French Messi and he spoke like 7 words of
English. But he was incredible.
He was so fun to watch. Had a guy one year with us that

(06:27):
played for like a week and 1/2. His name was Charlie and read so
good and he was, he was from England and he just absolutely
like like willed us to like 2 victories and then got picked up
by a pro team overseas and he was gone.
And that's just kind of how it works.
But anyway, so it's the last game of the last game of the

(06:48):
season. They're there, Man City.
They're playing Man City, they have to win to keep from being
relegated, which I think is brilliant.
I think that US sports should adopt this idea of relegation,
especially in college football, man, I think college football
would be great that you're relegated down to Division 20.
I think I think it's brilliant. And so, but Man City's the best

(07:09):
team and they have the best player.
And Lasso walks into the locker room in his his locker room.
The game hasn't even started yet.
And they're they're just down. They're defeated.
They know that they've already lost.
And as a coach, I've had times, not a football or soccer, but of
high school basketball, there are times when you can tell that
your team has already lost the game before the game's even

(07:29):
begun. And he walks into the locker
room and everyone's just downcast and he no, no, no, this
is before the game, before the game even starts, before the
game even. Starts because here's the quote
from the bar, right? Yeah, right.
And he walks in, he says, so youguys have this quote over here
that I don't really like. It's the hope that kills you.

(07:50):
And then the camera pans are on the locker room, and all of them
are shaking their heads saying, yeah, yeah.
And he says, I completely disagree with that.
It's the hope that drives you. It's the hope that keeps you
going the whole episode. It's titled The Hope that Kills
You. And that's what we're titling
our episode here today based offof the the inspiration came from
watching that episode and seeinghow we kind of have this

(08:12):
pessimistic mindset so often that that why hope?
Because hope is just going to let you down.
And so I want to kind of spend some time today talking about
hope in a different light. Today I want to spend some time
looking at how maybe we've misunderstood hope.
And from the from the perspective of an overly

(08:33):
optimistic American football coach who gets called overseas
to be football, to be a footballcoach, I want to spend some time
today talking about this idea ofhope.
First off, I just want to want to ask you.
You are as you've already well established, you are very well
cultured in all things you can I.

(08:55):
Don't know about that, but I've definitely, I've been a fan of
Ted Lasso and yeah. Why?
Why is that such a popular saying in that part of the
world? It's the hope that kills you.
So it's interesting, I was actually preaching months ago,
if not a year or so ago, and I was researching that quote and
looking through it and just really doing a deep dive on it.

(09:15):
And there was a reporter who just in a, in a soccer season,
big game coming up and just kindof some of this feeling of man,
I've got so much hope, but it's the hope that kills you.
And I, so I, I've always thought, man, how cool, how cool
would it be to be that guy to like really kind of come up with

(09:35):
something that I'm sure somebodysitting in the back of a pub.
You hope he copyrighted. It, you know, you write
something like that and you probably don't think about it.
I don't. And I don't know back when this
would have come out that. Pat Riley copyrighted 3 people
has made more of that than he has in.
Dumbest thing in the world. I don't think that should be
legal, but all this, all these things have just like you know

(09:57):
that the thing you kind of go, man, what?
How cool would it be to say something that literally has
transcended time and just cultures and all of this stuff?
And so it's you ask why, why, you know, why that phrase?
Why do you think it's just, I mean, I think it's true Like it
like we feel because of our feelings, not because it is true

(10:18):
itself, but the hope kills us because we get our hope placed
in something. It's, I mean, you, you pastored
in Northeast Tennessee. When I remember, it's not as bad
as it used to be, but there was a season of time here that if UT
lost a game on Saturday, church attendance was down like 14% the
next day. We knew that like we, we knew we

(10:40):
could almost, there was literally a percentage.
It was somewhere between like itwas between 10 and 14%.
It might have been like 12, but there was literally a number
that we knew if UT lost church attendance was going to be down
in that range of percentage. And, and it was.
And I it's because our hope is put in things that have the

(11:01):
ability and I guess any hope putin anything has the ability to
let us down. But that to me has just always
been that thought. As you know, Ted Lasso came out
August of 2020, which was the only good thing to come out of
2020 I feel like. The Dodgers and Lakers did win
championships that year, but theDodgers winning the World

(11:21):
Series, the Lakers winning the NBA Championship and Ted Lasso.
That's it. The other two don't matter.
No, it's just Ted Lasso. But that, that was a, that whole
thing is. So I've been kind of processing
that quote since 2020 and I, I love, I love that thought and
that idea. It's not just Brits that, it's
not just the English that. The quote might have started

(11:43):
there, but I agree with you. Yeah, I think that it it, we're
so about emotional self protection.
And that's what that phrase is all about, is emotional self
protection. Hope makes us vulnerable.
And if you have, if you don't ever expect anything, then you
can't be disappointed. But if you don't ever expect
anything, then you can't be inspired either.
And so I think it's a dangerous mindset to have, but it's based

(12:06):
out of this idea for self protection and emotional self
protection. Yeah, I don't disagree at all.
And you know, it's like when we put ourselves out there and we
take that step and we go, man, Ireally want to put some hope in
this. And I really want to be hopeful
that this is, you know, regardless what it is, that my

(12:26):
kid has a good day at school, that the doctor's visit comes
back negative, the, the test, the test come back negative,
that this date goes well, this test is successful.
This job interview really hits the way I want it to.
When we put all of our hope intothings, whether they're
personal, professional, emotional, mental, physical, it

(12:49):
really is a lot of weight to puton a word and and A and a
belief, But I think it's really the only thing we've got.
Yeah, What I've loved about the show so far, and I do think that
Jason Sudeikis is that the actorit is, I think that the Ted
Lasso character can be a bit over the top sometimes.
He's he's a little bit overly optimistic.
And maybe that's part of the theshtick is that he's overly

(13:10):
optimistic. But I love in that moment in the
locker room that he says I believe in hope and then he says
I believe in belief. And he has this handwritten off
centered belief post it note that's over top of the locker
room. And he has one on his mirror.
He has one on his office door. I might have that picture.
I might have that canvas at home.

(13:31):
Yeah, literally I bought the canvas.
It just says believe on it. But he believes that hope isn't
dangerous. He believes that cynicism is
dangerous. He his whole philosophy of life,
of coaching is built on believing the best about people
and believing the best about possible outcomes, even when it
looks foolish to the rest of theworld.

(13:51):
What? What do you, how, how does Ted
flip that idea on its head that it's the hope that kills you?
Well, I mean, I think it's what you just said.
I, I think it's belief. I think that I have to believe.
And it's really kind of an odd thing about me when I was in
photography, just really heavy and I thought, OK, this is my
path, this is my career. And I applied at so many jobs.

(14:16):
I applied to be that NFL teams, MLB teams like hockey.
I mean, just any colleges, what anywhere.
I saw inside of job openings that were available inside of
photography independent upon thesize of the organization.
Sometimes it also included videoand graphic design.
But I was applying for those things.

(14:37):
And I remember one day one of mykids looked at me and they go, I
don't know how you do that. And I'm like, well, it's just
just an e-mail. I've already got the resume tied
up. No, no, no, no, no.
How do you get so excited about something?
How do you have so much hope knowing that it's probably going
to crash down? I said, but what if it doesn't?
And they're like, but the next day you're fine.

(14:58):
And I said, because it was neverabout a specific job is about
the next step is about the is about the journey to go.
What if, I mean, what if that happened?
What if that opportunity was there?
And, and the thing for me and from my journey is I trust God
enough that I can have a hope inthe next opportunity.

(15:21):
I can have a hope in a situationthat I'm in.
I can have hope inside of that space.
And if it falls, I can trust that it was for my good.
Have you ever stopped hoping forsomething because it just hurt
too much too? I thought hard about this you,
you sent a few questions and that was one of them.
And I've really spent a lot of time trying to process through

(15:45):
that and I just can't remember anything.
And I think it's because of thatweird build I have that I am
totally good. Like, like I applied one time to
be. It's not often you get a chance
to apply for something you're going, this would be the
greatest job ever. I got to apply to be the Dallas.
Cowboy time when I called you and said, hey, how would you
like to step into? I didn't apply for that.

(16:06):
That was different. But I applied to be the Dallas
Cowboys photographer. I would have been the lead
photographer for the Dallas Cowboys and that position would
have been incredibly time consuming, but it'd been
incredibly cool. And I had and, and I was so
excited. But I mean and I, I.
And by now, you could have probably been the quarterback.

(16:26):
There's definitely a chance I could have been the head coach,
Maybe by now, probably. Probably do a better job.
Well, I mean, I I would have had, no, Jerry probably actually
has more football knowledge thanme.
So I would have been on a list. Now he's he's below his.
Now everybody else he hires actually has.
Football knowledge that right there is a hope that you need to
stop believing in. So I mean, I just, I mean, I put

(16:48):
that in and I just thought maybethis would be so cool.
And so I, I mean, I was looking,I was looking in Dallas like,
OK, where is this? How far to the stadium?
This, this and this and that, you know, and I was like, what
would a house cost? What would I have to make?
What would this be? What would that be?
And, and that was one of those moments that my kid looked at me
and goes, how do you do this? How do you get so invested?
How do you process? And I'm going, it's fun to

(17:09):
dream. And, and so I, I don't, again, I
don't, I just don't remember 1. And but that doesn't mean it's
not there. And I've really tried to process
through that. And so, yeah, so I, I can't
remember 1. And sometimes when you write a
question, it's because, you know, you may go, no, I didn't

(17:31):
have anything. But like, I'm always intrigued,
like when you write a question and I'm going, I can't wait to
get on the air and be like, did you, what's your thing?
What's your space in that? Because I'm always intrigued to
hear. I just think that so often times
disappointment conditions as to play it safe and, and there have
been so many times in my life where there's been something

(17:54):
that I've hoped for, something that I desired, that I, I had
dreams and aspirations for. And I've let go of it because of
the, the opportunity for disappointment.
And I can even come back to you.And IA couple of months ago we
made lists of our guests that wewould love to have on this show.

(18:17):
And after so many non responses back from people, you just stop
sending the emails. There are Times Now, well, I
will, I will get into a mode where I'm like, man, just worst
they can say is no, just send and I'll send out 50 emails in
an afternoon and get several responses back, 3 or 4 responses

(18:38):
back. Sometimes it's, you know, we
don't have time, not interested.Your show is not big enough.
Sorry. You know, you're an idiot.
And other times it's just no response.
And after so many non responses from people, you tend to just
feel like, you know what? I'm, I'm not going to put myself
out there. I'm not going to take the risk
that's involved in this to receive the reward.

(19:01):
And I don't like that mindset, but I find myself in that
mindset sometimes. I can see that.
Yeah. I mean, I guess there's, I mean,
in that in that light, I was trying to think of a situation
that I actually stepped into. There's probably some things of
like some. And again, maybe I don't
consider these. Maybe I consider hope something
once I start to take an action not and that might move it past

(19:24):
a dream. So sometimes I have dreams of
something and I go, man, that's a cool dream.
I love this idea, but I wouldn'tconsider it a hope until I
started to step into it. And so there are some things
that in, in how you said, what you just said there that I would
go, yeah, there's some thoughts and some dreams and some hopes
that maybe I have. Maybe it's a wrong word, or
maybe it's semantics. No, it could be semantics.

(19:45):
That's why I'm, that's why I'm adding in.
I don't, I don't know that I disagree with you.
I just hadn't thought of it thatway.
And when I look at it, I go, there's probably fear, there's
probably some anxiety, like whatif it doesn't go?
What if people think poorly of me?
What if it actually takes off? And now I've got to do it every
day for the rest of my life. That those are things I like

(20:05):
that I get. I mean, there I actually have a
worry of something being good sometimes.
And, and I know people are going, that's bonkers.
Robert, if you have an idea thatyou think would be successful,
why wouldn't you do it? And I'm going because let's just
say there was a podcast idea that you and I had kicked around
that we wanted to do. And and the thing another,
another show or something like that.
And we really felt like that thing has it.

(20:28):
My concern is, is that tomorrow,if we said we're now we're going
to give up another morning a week.
And I say that give up. We get the opportunity to and
our schedules allow that we we get the opportunity to do
another podcast and we do that. It it, it doesn't make money
tomorrow. So now I have to, I have to kind

(20:50):
of invest and do and give, give time to something that I'm
passionate about. And so I actually have a fear
inside of hope sometimes of whatcould happen if things go well.
And so maybe maybe I do have a little more fear inside of some
apprehension inside of hope thatI hadn't thought about until you
said what you said there. Glad that I could trigger

(21:12):
something. I'm I'm odd, man.
I'm telling you like I can have all the hope I can.
I can apply. I would apply right now to go be
the lead pastor's largest churchin America and wouldn't think
twice about it. And they'd be like, dude, you.
Are they hiring? I don't know who they are.
And so like I could apply to some church to where they've
asked for three doctorates. And I'll say I've done that.
Like somebody's like, oh, hey, with for this position with like
you'd have the doctorate and I'mgoing, I don't have a doctorate,

(21:34):
but let me tell you who I am. And sometimes they'll they'll
respond back and go, hey, thanks.
We're probably going to go a different direction.
I'm like, cool, but how do you know unless you ask?
And all they can say is no. And so at that point in time,
it's like, oh, but that's my jobto take something on that
becomes successful. There's an extra job that feels
like a lot. And so I get nervous about

(21:56):
things that I probably shouldn'tbe.
And I'm incredibly bold about things that I probably should be
a little more nervous about. I think so often our hope is
dependent upon outcomes. Agree.
It's dependent upon results. So what does it look like when
our hope depends on results? I think it's fragile or

(22:17):
fragilely. We're getting close to
Christmas. We are getting close, yeah.
No, we're still, I mean we're months out.
I mean, we're plural still couple months out from or so
from that, but not. If you walk into Hobby Lobby,
we're not or Lowe's or Home Depot.
It's all crazy. I think what our world is, you
know, I think when our world's based on outcome, not process,

(22:38):
we find our purpose and identityin the result and that starts to
really make hope AI think a fragile thing.
It's so difficult when our answers to prayer determine our
peace. That's a really good statement

(23:00):
when our answers to prayer determine our peace.
Because we pray our hope is driven on outcomes.
We pray with hope and yeah. And if we don't get the outcomes
that we want, if God doesn't answer our prayers in the way
that we want and the time that we want, that it determines our
entire outlook on life, our entire structure begins to fall

(23:24):
apart when our joy in life risesand falls on our circumstances.
That's a horrible place to live.Absolutely.
And so my, my question in that would probably be, would
probably be, I'm not sure yet. Wait a second.
It's actually going to be like, how do then do we, because when
you're talking there, like, do we confuse hope with like

(23:47):
optimism or maybe even wishful thinking and like how do you
balance those two things out? Yeah, you kind of said something
similar to that a little bit earlier in our conversation.
I think we absolutely do that optimism, right?
Optimism says things will work out.
Things are going to work out theway that I want them to.

(24:08):
That's what optimism is. Optimism is things will work out
the way that I want them to. Hope says.
Even if they don't work out the way that I want them to, God is
still good. God is still in control.
Now, yeah, and I think that's the hard thing and I don't, I
think it causes us just like a, you know, I'm actually wearing

(24:32):
the hat of a fake football football team on my head today.
I wear the AFC Richmond hat all the time.
So this is my ignorance. AFC Richmond is not.
A real club, not a real. Club, but Man City.
Is Man City is every other team that's mentioned, which is super
interesting to me because there is a real team that comes into
play very heavily in a couple seasons in the in the third

(24:54):
season. And I just found it really weird
that that team comes to play in the way that it does because I'm
like, why would you want to be labeled that way?
But they are and they're a real club.
The other thing that I love about the show is it reminds me
of Cheers because you have threeguys who just live in the bar
the whole time. Same same three guys are there
every single time. Yeah.

(25:14):
And then there's a couple of stragglers that float in and
out. You get the old man that reads
the paper that's in and out there sometimes.
And, and so yeah, there's just some really fun characters that
constantly pop up in and and thetown feels really, really small
to be as big as it is. And I think it's something
that's probably pretty cool about about England and, and,
and how that that all plays out.But but no, yeah, I mean, I

(25:36):
love, I love what you're saying.They're wrapped around that idea
of that, you know, when you start to get something that's
just wishful thinking. Because see, for me, like, and I
go so like hope for me is I put this in and I go, I have a hope
that I have the skill set. I have the ability, so I have
the talent, I've put in the workand I'm capable and competent

(25:57):
enough to do this job, the position that I'm applying for
or this opportunity that I'm looking into.
But it is like when I start to get into looking at like what a
house would cost 30 minutes away.
There's some wishful thinking inside of that, but those things
aren't tied to my hope. And and so maybe like I said,

(26:20):
maybe that's where I'm the weirdduck inside of this and I just
go, that was fun. I got to learn from the process.
Maybe a lot like Don Staley doing like she talks about where
she interviewed for the New YorkKnicks job and you just she just
goes, I know the process now andI'm going mate, you know, I
think she'd like to have the job.
I think it would have been very intriguing for her.
I think it'd been intriguing forthe NBA.

(26:41):
I'm not sure how she would do inthat role.
She's a brilliant basketball mind.
But I just kind of go like, I understand the process a lot.
Like when I heard Dawn's interview, parts of it, there's
some things that I don't understand because she's way
smarter than me and I haven't gone through that kind of stuff.
But like when you go, I just, oh, I know the process now.
I think it's part of it for me. I don't know if you're thinking.

(27:03):
I am, I just, I'm, I'm envious of your, your view there.
And and no, I think that's a great way to live.
I wish that I had more of that. Yeah, but I'm envious of like
any. Again, I think The thing is the
beauty of this, see, This is whycommunity is so important.
And and I think it's one of the things that you and I have a ton

(27:23):
of fun when we get to do projects together.
And I love the fact that we go to church together.
I love the fact that you're a part of our teaching team.
I love the fact that of all of these spaces and moments that
your that your wife is, you know, of course, she and my wife
are good friends and that she's a part of like leadership at the
church and does some really, youknow, what probably feels would

(27:46):
feel small to a lot of people, but she creates a culture and a
vibe and an energy for a group of people that helps just do a
lot of good stuff. And and I love all of those
things. But one of the things you do is
some of the things that cripple me, like fears that I would have
that if something goes well, youwould never have that thought.

(28:06):
If you felt like this is a good idea, God's put it on my heart.
You would step into it and you would give it insane amounts of
time, like almost compulsive, obsessive amounts of time.
And and and it's something that and I make that sound like a bad
thing, like it's you would not over commit to it, but you would

(28:28):
you would commit at a very serious high level.
It would not ruin your family. You would still have date night
with your wife. You would still have the time
set aside for your kids. You would be the trips or the
things you're doing. You wouldn't go shutting down
everything for eight months. So I can just do this.
You would still that it's that'sthe thing that I I I look at and

(28:48):
value about your investment in my life with some things.
And so you and I are really opposites that kind of I think
have have ability and to encourage and shave each other
and some stuff. Yeah, my wife is going to call
me as soon as she hears this andsay I can't believe that you
just admitted that on air in front of thousands of people.

(29:09):
And I've been saying that to you.
And she's she's going to this next sound bite.
She's going to cut, splice, record and play back to me over.
She probably will make it every time I call her this what I'm
about to say. No, she can't make it when you
call because that means you're not there.
She will make it when. Everyone else calls.
I'm not an optimist, but I'm very hopeful.

(29:33):
And so in thinking about what I just said a minute ago, that
when you ask the question about optimism and wishful thinking,
that optimism is saying things are going to work out the way
that I want. That's not, that's not me.
A lot of times that I just don'thave that optimistic attitude.
I've, I've experienced so many things in life that have jaded

(29:54):
me and made me so cynical on things that that I don't have a
lot of optimism that things are going to work out the way that I
want. But I have incredible hope that
they're going to work out that God is still in control.
And no matter how they work out,that things are still going to
be OK. And I wish that I had more of
your optimism on things, but I'm, but I'm also very glad that

(30:14):
even in the disappointment sometimes or, or in the lack of
wishful thinking that I still have this grounded faith that
God is ultimately in control andthings are going to work out the
way that they're supposed to work out.
We were talking before the show for probably way too long about
some stuff. And I used to quote that we both
heard this, this one leader say that, you know, like he he tries

(30:37):
to walk into life with the idea and the mentality of believe the
best, don't assume the worst. And The thing is, and I'm that
way, I try and be that way with people, but I'm going to assume
the worst person. So if you call me and say, hey,
can we have a conversation? My assumption is that it's not
good. You are not that way.
I'm not that way at all. And you and so like you and I

(30:58):
are hopeful about think like you're hopeful, like you just
said, inside of conversations and people and those things.
And I'm anxious inside of that. And I'm hopeful in things that I
can look at and, and go, I thinkhere's a next step.

(31:19):
Here's an opportunity, whether it's for me, my family, my kids,
and, and I think it's been something that's a lot of fun in
that space to kind of build thatculture of, hey, take a risk,
like go for the no fail forward,whatever.
You know, the worst they can sayis no.
And, and the boys are like, whathappens if they say no?
And I'm like the. Sun still rises tomorrow.

(31:40):
Exactly. And and I'm like, what's the
word? I mean, if they say no, should I
go try out for this team? Do you want to play for that
team? Well, that'd be fun.
I'm like, then go do it. Like what if they what if they
cut me? What if they don't?
I like, I like, but, and so I don't have any apprehension
about those types of things. But I do struggle sometimes in

(32:01):
having hope. I have a very low hope of people
and, and I and it's, and it's a growth thing.
We talk about that. It's not like I have no hope.
I just, it's a it's my, I would have a lower hope in that space
and I don't trust. And so there's just like you
said that about, oh, hey, here'sthe things.
I have hope and I'm going, yeah,I don't have hope in that.
I don't have not, at least not as much as you.
And so I, I just think we're allin those spaces and against why

(32:24):
communities important because, you know, it was like 3 weeks
ago, we're sitting at a coffee shop on, on the back porch
outside. It's a gorgeous day and we're
just enjoying a a small breeze and it was still kind of hot,
but it had cooled down that day a little bit.
And we're sitting up there almost in some jackets on a, you
know, on a day like a three O clock in an afternoon, drinking

(32:46):
some coffee and tea. And, and we're just like, and
you said some pretty hard stuff.And, and it's like, yeah, that's
why community is important because I need to grow up here.
I need to have AI, need to have a better outlook.
And I think that's The thing is that hope really comes from an
outlook thing, an outlook lens. And if you're looking through a
lens where it's so negative and tearing you down and you're just

(33:09):
like, oh, there's no way this will work.
But like, but what if it does? And what's the worst that
happens if it doesn't? And so that's my whole thing.
I'm trying to get to with peopleis OK, what if every
conversation isn't about me? What, what if I'm not the center
of everyone else's world? And it's like, yeah, maybe I
hadn't thought about that. And so that's just my, that's a

(33:31):
personal struggle for me. And so I'm having hope in the
fact of that God is working. And that's hard for me to be
like, oh, hey, God's working good in these ideas, but he's
not working good in relationships.
So maybe hope isn't about outcomes, hope is about outlook.
Yeah, because, I mean, I don't know.
I mean, we're coming up here in a second, like one of the

(33:51):
questions you asked, and I just love, you know, we talk, you
know, faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction
of things not seen. I mean, it's this hope, you
know, it's a faith that we have and when we hope, I'm sure you
have that verse in yours as well.
I mean that we are in your notesas well.
We both kind of is just doing some leg work in this thing.
Like it's just this. I mean, that's how I feel about

(34:13):
about life so much. Is it really?
I need to be taking better notes.
That was really good. You used the two.
You did a good pastor thing there.
You outcome, not outlook, outlook, not outcome.
Yeah. And I think it's about outlook
of just trusting that, hey, here's the potential of where

(34:34):
God could be leading. And and I think that the outcome
doesn't matter as much. That's the hope.
Yeah, and that and the. Outcome doesn't matter as much.
But it's also why they say, say it's the hope that kills you.
And, and, and that's that's where that quote comes from.
When your when your life is built on the outcome, hope, hope
is destructive. Well, and I think in our culture

(34:56):
to today, especially outside of faith, that faith is viewed as
foolishness. Yeah, it's naive.
Faith is not certainty. Faith is confidence in the one
who is certain. Does that make sense?
I don't know that I'm saying that right.
I mean, I don't know that that'swrong.

(35:17):
I mean, like I said, even just the verse that we, I just, you
know, Hebrews 11 to 1, you know,faith is assurance of things
hoped for. I mean, faith is a confidence
and assurance in in what we, we hope for.
Now, here's the thing for me andyou and and I don't, I don't
know that everybody listens to our show.
I mean, like we do a this, we, we don't do this.

(35:38):
I don't know, we do a lot of this type of conversation and
everything we do, we want to point it back to Jesus, even in
the interviews that we do. But you and I don't get to sit
here a lot and just have a topicand and rattle through it.
But if because for you and I, our hope is in creator God,
Yahweh, I mean ABBA like it's this space of we trust that we

(36:01):
can have faith in the assurance of the things we hope for.
And if our hope doesn't land theway we maybe think it should, we
trust that how it lands is stillthe best thing for us.
You said earlier that hope was fragile.
I think fragile hope is dependent on outcomes, but

(36:24):
resilient hope is dependent on God's character.
Because the thing you, the question that was asked in
though, is what does it look like when our hope depends on
results? And I said, I think it looks
fragile. So like, you know, and in
parentheses, even with the question that you sent me to
kind of process through, what does it look like when our hope,
when our hope depends on resultsand in parentheses, you put wins

(36:47):
job relationships. Yeah, yeah.
When our hope is based on that, I think it's incredibly fragile.
Mel. Mel and I were driving the
other. Day when our hope is built on
God's character, then it stands the disappointments.
It withstands the outcomes that we weren't hoping for.
Mel and I were driving the otherday.
I mean, we're in just a weird season.
We've got some things that are really, really, really, really

(37:10):
good and we've got some things that are really, really hard
right now. We had a family member that
that's not with us and it, it passed away a few weeks ago, a
couple weeks ago now. And, and, and, and we're just
wanting to journey alongside with the family and, and, and
well, and, and be in that space and, and we're struggling
through that of just the, the hurt that they're feeling, the

(37:32):
hurt that we're feeling inside of all of that.
And, and I told Mel we were driving the other day and I
said, there are moments you haveto want to Take Me Out into the
on the back porch and just throwme off.
And she laughed and she didn't say no.
And, and we were, and I said, Emil, there are moments that you
drive that, that, that you wouldbe in the same say no.

(37:54):
And I said, and there's moments that you and I like that you and
I would be struggling and you'redoing something.
I'm going, it makes no sense. And it's just, it's like
infuriating to me, like why we can't wrap our brains around
this thought. And so I said there's moments
where life is hard, but our hopeisn't based on our hope starts
being based in in like you said,in a relationship with Jesus,

(38:17):
which leads us to going, OK, this, this is a flawed human
that that I love dearly that Godhas blessed me with.
And I get a chance to figure outmy brokenness as well as help
them journey through theirs at the same time.
And I think that's the thing about this is like you said,
when when our hope is based in the wrong thing, you throw

(38:40):
people off the back deck. When it's based in the fact of
that God is good and that everything else, when that's the
foundation and everything else stacks on top of that.
When things crumble a little bitthat are on top of that, we
still land on a firm foundation.And that for me is, is, is the
result here. I love the Hope conversation and

(39:01):
it's I love the fact that it's apart of Advent.
I love the fact that it's the opening week of Advent, isn't
it? Hope is the first week I think
inside of Hope Lovejoy. I I never get the order correct.
I feel like it's hope, Lovejoy, peace.
But anyway, I, I could be wrong on that, but I like, I love, I
just love the concept of hope. And I was like you in 2024 or

(39:24):
2020. I mean, when I was watching this
for the first time and that popped up and I thought, I
cannot wait to see what the hopethat kills you means.
So we've seen in the last coupleof months, we've had guests on
that have personified this idea and we're going to take a quick
break. But then when we come back, I
want to dive into a little of Andrew Carrier's story, a little

(39:44):
bit of Jodie Ramey's story and how they have shown this idea of
resilient hope. We'll be right back after a
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(40:05):
leadership development, strategic planning, or community
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Visit higherministries.com to learn more and thank them for
sponsoring our podcast. So over the last couple of
months we have had some really, really incredible guests that
have sat down on the porch with us.
One of those, about a month, month and 1/2 half ago or so is

(40:26):
Andrew Carrier, who talked with us about his cancer diagnosis
and the battle that he went through with that.
And if you haven't listened to that episode, you need to go
back and find the episodes with Andrew Carrier.
They were some of, I think our most powerful episodes that
we've done. We've gotten some incredible
feedback from people on those episodes and his story of

(40:48):
resilience, his story of hope. Yeah, that's one of the ones
Melissa told me. She's like, you've got to tell
me when I can't listen to these in public.
I think she had to go in. She was at work and had to go
into like a room nobody else wasin and just like, take a second
and catch her breath. I mean, she's like, that was
incredibly heavy and powerful. And then just last week we had

(41:08):
the story of Jodie Raimi and that was another two parter.
We couldn't fit. We can't fit these heavy stories
into one episode. And so we had the last two weeks
have been hearing the story of Jodie and the loss of her son
Josh. That came out of a very
unexpected circumstance and veryheartbreaking situation there.
But through it all, Jodie and Andrew both lived out this idea

(41:36):
of hope that that we're talking about a hope not in outcomes,
but in the hope of something more solid.
What did you notice in their stories?
I think that the thing that was consistent in in both of them,
it's a little bit of what you just said.

(41:57):
I mean, like, I think about Andrew talking about this, this
life and raising his boys and, and you know, a wife that he
loves and he's just like, you know, I wasn't, wasn't ready.
He was ready, but he didn't wantto leave.
He wanted to be here for them. And so for him, like you talked
about determination. I just remember him talking

(42:18):
about like on my lunch break, I'm a run over here and get
radiation. And I mean, hey, and then this
and this and this and, and I'm just going like the commitment
and the, and the trust, the hopethat you have that God is, is
working and whether the test results come back how you want
them or they come back with the harder news.

(42:39):
It's I think Matt Chandler, one time when he had cancer, he just
said really going to have some, some really good things to
praise God for or some harder things to praise him through.
But either way, he gets the praise.
And I think that's the thing forme with both of them, with with
Andrew and with Jody, is that inside of some moments, and I
just think about Jodie, she had some moments of just real

(43:00):
rejoicing even in her story. And like, hey, we got to this
place and I saw God working and it was so good.
And then a lot of times and it and honestly, and then this, the
main story that we were talking about, it led to something that
shortly after that was really hard.
And I just, I think though that for them, it was a that was

(43:23):
good. It was a really like, I've got
something I can pray, really want to.
That's something we can praise God for or we've got something
we're going to praise him through.
But either way he gets the praise.
And I think that's the thing about both of them that was
incredibly powerful for me inside of that, the side of
their story. Now you actually have a much, a

(43:44):
much deeper connection to both of the I met them both for the
first time when they sat in the studio.
And so you have a deeper connection to their families to
I mean, you've been around for the birth of kids and you've
seen a ton of life change and life journey and you've been a
part of those really hard moments first hand.
And So what about you? What kind of stood out as
someone who wasn't hearing this story for the first time?

(44:06):
Neither of them pretended that everything was OK.
They both showed hope that was honest.
That's really good. It wasn't always nice and neat,
sometimes it was messy, but it was honest.
They've lived in the tension of their circumstance, but they
never let go of God's goodness in their life.

(44:30):
And I think that's what really stood out to me for both of them
as they didn't try to pretend that everything was OK.
They didn't try to pretend like it was all going to work out.
Andrew hoped that things were going to work out.
And Jody's situation, she knew that things weren't going to
work out the way that she wantedthem to.
She wanted her son back. And that wasn't going to happen

(44:50):
on this side of eternity. But they believed in God's
goodness. And I loved, loved, loved what
you just said. Because our next question was
how does biblical hope differ from the fingers crossed type of
hope? And you answered it so perfectly
right there. And what you said is that it's

(45:11):
it's not a hope and maybe it's even if.
Yeah, I I love that, you know, just and some of these things
pop out to me because I love movies and and I know these
verses out of this verse outsideof that, but I always I always
think of remember the Titans that anybody's anytime someone
quotes Isaiah 4031. I just want people to start
singing it in the middle of a gymnasium with a football team

(45:34):
and you know, you know, but those who hope in the Lord,
they'll renew their strength andyou know, they'll soar on wings
like eagles. And then I can hear the guy Rev
going like eagles. Y'all like eagles y'all I mean,
and you know, they will run and not grow weary.
They will walk and not be faint.And I think that's the thing for
me is that like even though, but.

(45:56):
I love the verse before that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 4030,
Yeah. I'll let you quote it.
I can't off the top of my head. I didn't.
I didn't transfer that one into my notes.
I can look it up if I need to. Even.
Yeah, but. Those who trust in the.
Lord, those who trust in the Lord, he will renew their
strength. Their strength is gone.

(46:19):
So there are times in life when our our strength is going to be
gone. There are times in life where
it's going to feel like I've gotnothing left but those who trust
or hope in the goodness of God that He will renew their
strength. He's not going to keep it from
dwindling. But if you hold on to Him, if

(46:41):
you have faith in Him, if you have a hope in Him, if you trust
in Him, that that faith will be renewed.
And sometimes it will be renewedto this level.
And I know that we're not. I'm talking to you emotion for
everyone to not be able to see. Sometimes it will be at the
mountain level and you will be soaring.
Other times, man, you're going to barely be able to walk.

(47:05):
You know, it's interesting. But I'm going to renew your
strength. You think about like this here
and maybe I'm off. You can say, Robert, that's bad
theology, but I was sitting in amen's group yesterday morning
and we were just talking about the the sermon from this past
Sunday and we're preaching to Jonah right now And he said,
man, the verse that I have loved.
This guy's like reading Jonah for the first time and a newer

(47:27):
believer and just following man loves Jesus and just really
taking some steps here. And he said I love the fact that
he says in the in the deepest roots, like down in the in the
in the mountain in the deepest roots in the mountain that God
is there. He's you were there, you were
present. And so like you said, it's in
this deep root like things like Jonah 2627, but like or like

(47:51):
you're talking about here what we're talking about like wings,
like eagles. And it is just that thing of God
is in both of those spaces the. Beautiful thing about hope that
is grounded in Christ is that hope doesn't eliminate our
struggle. Hope doesn't eliminate our pain.
It doesn't get rid of our grief,but it redeems it.

(48:13):
Yeah, yeah. It, it's, it just brings, it
brings us the ability. How do I, I don't know how I'm
trying to think how to say this brings us the ability to take
the next step when our hope is grounded in something that's

(48:35):
bigger than us. I mean, if I mean, you and I
talk, we, we both love our sports teams.
I love the Celtics. I mean, if my hope was grounded
in the Celtics when Tatum went down in the play, I mean, I
really thought like we, we may repeat like we were good last
year. I mean, Christophe was playing
well and staying healthy. And I mean, there were some good

(48:58):
teams, but defensively, our teamis built to stop teams like SGA.
They're, you know, built like SGA and all this stuff.
Like I thought we could play with this team.
And when he went down, if my hope was only in a sports team
and some people go, Robert, that's the silliest thing I've
ever heard. But Tony, you and I both know
people that their entire life and hope is and not like you and

(49:21):
I joke about your your fandom and how crazy it can be, but
your entire hope is not based on, at the end of the day, like
you want the Dodgers to win the World Series.
If they don't, you'd be a littlebummed out, but.
It doesn't. I'd be a lot bummed out.
And let's let's be real here. But but it doesn't, it doesn't
change your outlook on life. Changes my outlook on

(49:44):
everything. I don't eat, I don't sleep.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe maybe this whole thing is broken.
I just think that in that space,if our if our foundation is
right and our hope is in the right thing, it's you're not
blowing your family up over the Dodgers losing, I don't think.
No, I'm not. They may be a little tired of
you after. A couple of years.

(50:04):
They're already tired of me. No, it's.
I did tell Amanda the other day you were out and she was at
church and we were talking. I just said if the Cubs, if the
Dodgers can get swept, I need the Cubs to win and the Cubs
sweep the Dodgers and then this and I said I'll be good.
That's what you were hoping for.Well, I'm, I'm, I'm more of a

(50:26):
Cubs fan than a Dodgers fan. I'm glad that your hope was
based on outcomes and those outcomes failed.
And I don't care. I see.
The thing is, I have not cared at all.
I don't know that I'm overly excited about whoever wins the
World Series this year. It might be.
I might be a Seattle fan right now.
So yeah. Yeah, I, I, I'm still, I love,

(50:47):
love, love what you said a a fewminutes ago.
And I think that it, it really just summarizes and everything
that I would want to say is thathope isn't maybe it's even if I
love that we should make that a T-shirt.
You should throw that on bumper stickers because I think that
was incredible. And I think that's what we saw

(51:09):
out of Andrew's story is that I'm, I'm hopeful that I'm going
to be cured of this. I'm hopeful that my kids are
going to have a dad. But even if I still hope in you,
God, I still hope in you, Jesus.And man, that's the kind of
faith that I want to have. That's the kind of hope that I
want to have. That's the kind of life that I

(51:30):
want to live. And the kind of strength that I
want to exhibit to everyone around me is not maybe.
But even if I still praise you, even if you're still my God,
even even if the outcome isn't the one that I'm pushing for,
that I'm praying for, that I'm hoping for, my hope isn't

(51:50):
grounded in the outcome. My hope is grounded in you.
And it's one of the things people ask a lot, especially,
you know, if you're ever at the church to probably get a chance
to, to be a part of. And if you're over there and,
and I'm preaching that day or ifyou see me worshiping or
something like that, like I'm, I'm, I'm a relatively emotional
person and, and, and so, but it's, it's, that is why like

(52:16):
what you're talking about is when we sing a song and, and
it's just going like Christ is afirm foundation like these.
We, we, there was something meant to go that was said and I
was just processing through a song that we sing.
And I'm just going and I feel those things deep in who I am
because I really believe that iswho God is.
And when I'm teaching like and get a chance to preach and teach

(52:40):
on a pretty consistent basis, myheart is just so moved because I
want people to feel that. And that's what draws.
It's not that I'm nervous or upset or scared or anything like
that. I'm incredibly comfortable on a
stage. I just want for people so deeply
what God does for me and even more, I mean, even at a higher

(53:02):
level. And I think that's why like what
we're talking about here is I just have a hope and that that
God is is who he says he is. And I can trust that and that in
that I can follow the ways of Jesus, and it will make my life
better and more complete. So we both have hopes
personally, we have hopes professionally.

(53:23):
We have hopes for this show thatwe're sitting on right now.
And we've we've talked about those hopes.
We've talked about those dreams,those expectations that we have
for this show. And while I think that we're
very thrilled with what we've been able to do and what we've
been able to accomplish, we havea hope that we wanted to see it
grow. We wanted to see it do bigger
because I feel like the stories that we're telling have impact.

(53:46):
I think feel like Andrew's stories, Jodie's stories, the,
the stories that we've been sharing, that we've been
hearing, that we've been hearingourselves here on this show are
stories that could really enrichthe lives of other people if
they would hear it. They just need to hear it.
And we have hopes. We've laid out goals for these
things. And yet you look, we were

(54:07):
talking just earlier that only 11% of our listeners subscribe
to this show. And so if you're listening to
this right now and you have not subscribed to our show, please
hit pause and go hit that like button, hit that subscribe
button, that plus button on whatever platform you're
listening to. We have a whopping 12 followers
on Facebook. I have no idea on Instagram.

(54:27):
I don't know how to look and seeon Instagram, but we have a
whole 12 followers on Instagram.Our last episode had several
1000 listeners to it, and yet wehave 12 followers on Facebook.
How do we balance trusting God'stiming while actively pursuing

(54:51):
hopes in dreams? Sorry, I was in a different.
Because I'm like, come on, God, these are great stories.
People need to hear this. You're looking up how many
people like. Us.
Well, you were asking something and I was I was.
I mean, you know, you got me into work mode, not into.
Is it less than 12 I? Didn't get to it.

(55:12):
I assume this when when I read this question.
You're gonna tell me we've got 4?
1000 followers on is it even followers or likes or what is it
on? Instagram it is, it is followers
like what I think Augustine getscredit for this work like it
depends on you praise if it depends on God.
I think that for me is why there's hope there.
I mean, we have a responsibilityin the process, but we live that

(55:34):
responsibility through hope and trust that the effort that we
put in that God will will help us to grow in the ways we need
to grow. And if it lands in the way that
we're thinking, awesome. And he's prepared us for that
moment. If it doesn't, he's equipping us
for what's next and what's there.
And so for me, like that's that balance for me is the balancing

(55:55):
or that is like trust that I'm praying like it depends the
fully on God. I'm working like it depends on
me and I'm trusting that he's marrying those two things
together. So is there a difference between
ambition and calling? I mean, I think so.
I think ambition can lead us to kind of step on or over people's

(56:17):
kind of a cutthroat pursuit. And I think a hopeful calling.
I don't know how, how do I say this steps with a a purpose that
that only leads like it not onlyleads us, I guess, to those
dreams that we have, but it alsobrings us along in the process
and brings others along in the process and has a trust that

(56:38):
that God's working the process. So I mean, you know, ambition is
kind of a cutthroat pursuit and hopeful calling steps through a
process that leads us to some things.
I know. Do you agree I.
Love that. I completely agree with that.
I, I would have probably just said something like ambition is
about self. Ambition is about our our self.
And yeah, I think you said it perfectly.

(56:58):
Purpose is about a calling. And so yeah, I, I, I love that.
Why don't we take a quick break and then when we come back from
the break, we're going to switchthings up a little bit and I'm
going to try to throw you off track with a little truth or
trash. I hate when I'm the I'm the kind
of guest on this part of it. Is your ministry ready to reach

(57:20):
new heights? Higher Ministries is here to
help you grow, lead, and serve with excellence.
From leadership coaching to practical resources for church
management, they offer everything you need to take your
ministry to the next level. We're proud to have them as our
sponsor. Visit higherministries.com today
and see how they can help you make a greater impact.

(57:40):
All right, Robert, you ready fora little truth or trash Robert
Kell edition? My goodness, no, I'm not, but
let's do it. We've got a couple of great ones
for you here and we're we're going to rapid fire these
things. Here we go.
You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out.
Oh. Truth.
You can't handle the truth. Every family's got that one
cousin nobody claims until they win the lottery.

(58:01):
Truth. You can't handle the truth.
If you have to say no offense, offense has already been taken.
Truth. You can't handle the truth.
Yard work counts as cardio if you complain loud enough.
Trash. Trash.
You can tell a lot about the person by the way they treat the
waitress. Truth.

(58:22):
You can't handle the truth. Vacation calories don't count,
but they still show up. Can can I say truth?
But in my heart, no, that's trash.
Nothing brings out your prayer life like putting together IKEA
furniture. I've never put together, oh, my
goodness. I've never put together a piece
of IKEA and I've put together furniture.

(58:42):
And I would say it's truth, but like, I, I have, or maybe, you
know, yeah, there's nothing thatchallenges you to not say words
you haven't said since you were a teenager.
Then when you're putting together weird assembly
furniture. I I don't care what you say,
that one is truth. Can't.
Handle the truth. True, everybody says they love

(59:02):
fall until it's time to rake theleaves.
Oh I'm I'm trash on that one. I love.
Fall, you like raking leaves. I love fall and I that's what I
have to deal with leaves to get it.
I love it. Did you hear my leaf story from
last year? Did that tell you what happened?
I don't remember your leaf storyfrom last year so I feel like
it's something that should be told again.
So we when, when my dad passed away, we have this, they had, my

(59:28):
parents had this big huge mower.They had four acres of land.
Well, we have 1/2 acre lot. But mom's like you need that
mower. And so this huge John Deere
riding mower from like the 90s, but it's still a great mower.
And I'm out there and I'm going,I'm just going to blow the
leaves up. And as I'm blowing them, it's
pushing them some, well, some ofthe leaves get on the, the, I

(59:50):
guess the exhaust that are there.
And, and I've never seen this happen.
And next thing I know I have a pile of leaves the size of your
desk that are on fire, burning like flames.
Like huge. In our front yard, a water hose
isn't long enough to get up there.
I actually had to call the fire department and get them to come
in and and they, they got out some little like squirt gun and

(01:00:13):
squirt it down. And I was like, guys, I'm so
sorry. And they're like, hey, This is
why we're here. And I was like, I appreciate why
you're here, but I am so sorry. But that's my, I do love fall.
I love fall so much. It is hands down my favorite
season. I mean when I can a hoodie.
You wear a hoodie in summer. I I don't wear one in the summer

(01:00:33):
a lot but I do I love hoodie in shorts.
That's my favorite weather. This is it.
The older I get, the more I realize naps are wasted on
children. Truth.
You can't handle the truth. You're not running late, you
just underestimated life. Trash.
Trash. Half of adulthood is just saying
we should get together sometime and never doing it.

(01:00:54):
You can't. I've got three of those
appointments right now that's happening.
The older I get, the more I understand why my parents sat in
the car for 10 minutes after getting home.
I will say trash. I enjoy coming home trash.
You just survived. Truth or trash?
Oh my goodness. OK, so since I was the truth or

(01:01:18):
trash guy, like as we're, as we're wrapping up here and kind
of stepping through this, I'll, I'll ask you a couple of
questions and you can help us kind of maybe put a put a ribbon
on this conversation today. But why do you think God asks us
to hope anyway, even knowing we might get hurt?
Oh, I think because our hope keeps us connected to him.

(01:01:39):
It's a it's an act of faithful obedience that says you're worth
the risk. Yeah, that's like my thoughts
around that were, you know, a little bit different.
I said more to how we build faith.
But I love what you said there that that is really, really
good. So like in that space, like with

(01:02:01):
the risk of us getting hurt, what happens to our heart when
we decide that the hoping is notworth it and we stop hoping what
happens to her? And like to us as people, we
stop hoping We, we, we. Harden up.
We stop dreaming and I think when we stop dreaming we stop
loving. When we stop loving, we stop
believing that things can changeand we start living a life of

(01:02:24):
self preservation, self protection instead of a life of
faith. Yeah, I'm, I'm not in that.
I'm not a doctor and I'm trying to process through some of this
stuff. One of the things I thought
about inside of that idea and, and even listen to you talk
there was when we stop hoping, it's what creates this apathy in

(01:02:45):
our life that we have no ambition to step forward.
I think it's what creates anxiety and worry and anger and
fear. I think a lot of these emotions
we feel if we if we feel like wecan't trust the, you know, the
God of the Bible to be a foundation and that he really is
working all things for good for those who trust him and are

(01:03:08):
called according to his purpose.If we don't believe that step,
then we, when we stop hoping, itjust creates an anxiety,
especially if we have a faith connection inside of
Christianity and, and that idea.Yeah.
The last, I guess the last thingthat I would say is, is like if

(01:03:29):
you were going to kind of send people out and going, OK, like
here's the step. Here's a way that you can, that
you can maybe start to take a small step of hope.
Like what small act of hope can someone take this week?
Some small step towards hope in their life that could help them

(01:03:51):
to start to to believe again? Pray again, believe again, try
again. Maybe for some of our listeners
out there, it's been a long timesince you've tried.
Maybe it's been a long time since you've believed that life
can look any different. Maybe it's been quite a while

(01:04:15):
since you've prayed, and maybe your prayers need to not be
outcome driven, but just driven in the hope that God is still in
control. God still has his hands on your
life and on your situation, and that regardless of the outcome

(01:04:36):
that you have hope that God is still good.
Yeah, I think that's great. I agree with that 100%.
My thoughts are very much aligned to that.
Just take that step, you know, believe again, believe in a
dream you had for your career. Believe in that dream that you
had as you know you have, I guess not had, but have as a

(01:04:59):
parent, as a spouse, a son, a daughter, a friend.
And believe in, you know, believe in the hope that you
have in in faith. Well, that is all the time that
we have for this edition of the Pulpit and Porch podcast.
I want to thank you for tuning in and listening to us ramble on
about hope today. Remember that hope is risky.
Hope can hurt. Hope can make you feel like

(01:05:20):
you're standing on the edge of disappointment.
But here's the truth. Hope also lifts us up, carries
us, and sustains us. Hope is what held Joni, Jodie
Ramey, and Andrew Carrier through seasons that felt
unbearable, and it's what turns ordinary dreams into
extraordinary lives. And it's what reminds us that
even in the mess, even in the chaos, even when the outcome is

(01:05:41):
uncertain, that God is good. So go ahead and hope again.
Dream again, pray again. And maybe, just maybe, pass
someone a biscuit while you're at it.
Because hope isn't the thing that kills us.
It's the thing that keeps us coming back to the porch ready
to live, ready to love and to believe a little more tomorrow
than we did today. So thanks for listening to the

(01:06:02):
Pulpit and Porch. Subscribe to the Pulpit and
Porch. Share the Pulpit and Porch,
follow us on Facebook and we'll see you next week on the Porch.