In this episode, we discuss the tragic case of a mother murdered despite a protection order. Her 17-year-old son discovering his mom's body while sheltering his younger siblings. The aftermath of domestic violence ripples through generations, reshaping how children form relationships and perceive safety at their most foundational level.
This episode unpacks the devastating psychological impact of domestic abuse on children through attachment theory. Tony Overbay explains how witnessing violence creates insecure attachment patterns—anxious, avoidant, or disorganized—that follow children into adulthood, while Dr. Jeff Jamison details the physical toll: persistently elevated cortisol levels, constant fight-or-flight activation, and developmental challenges that affect everything from academic performance to social connections.
For parents who've escaped abusive relationships, we offer a roadmap for helping children heal while navigating their own recovery.
We also tackle the complex emotional landscape facing abuse survivors—the guilt, empathy, and lingering attachment to abusers despite everything they've endured.
Healing isn't quick or linear, but with emotional consistency from the safe parent, children gradually distinguish between healthy and unhealthy relationships. If you're struggling with domestic violence or its aftermath, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-SAFE. Remember that healing is possible—even after the darkest experiences. You are NOT alone!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Q&A File, the ultimate
health and wellness playground.
I'm your host, Tricia Jamieson,a board-certified functional
nutritionist and lifestylepractitioner, ready to lead you
through a world of healthdiscoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry ofdisease prevention to nutrition
, exercise, mental health andbuilding strong relationships,
all spiced with diverseperspectives.
(00:29):
It's not just a podcast, it's acelebration of health, packed
with insights and a twist of fun.
Welcome aboard the Q&A Files,where your questions ignite our
vibrant discussions and lead toa brighter you.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Q&A Files.
I'm your host, Trisha Jameson,a functional nutritionist and
lifestyle practitioner and alife coach, and I'm committed to
(00:51):
your health and your well-being.
Joining me today are my twoesteemed professionals, Dr Jeff
Jameson, a board-certifiedfamily physician, and Tony
Overbay, a licensed marriage andfamily therapist.
So glad to have you both herewith me today.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi everybody.
Esteemed professional, I feellike I should let me take my
monocle out and greetingseveryone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
So, before we delve into today's topic, let's take a
moment to share somecelebrations.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Hey, wait, wait.
So the times that I'm prepared,we've not done them.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Tony, you are never prepared.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
One time I was.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
One time you were.
I've been hearing that you'reasking for celebrations with
your clients in classes, and sothat makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, I am.
Yeah, I do it when I don't haveanything prepared.
So thank you.
I'm kidding, no they're awesome, I do.
I love it because it does makeyou think more of it.
I think it's interesting,though, that I know that we
could do them here.
So what is it?
What's the psychological blockthat's occurring where I'm not
thinking?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
about it.
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Let me go lay down on my couch.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Let's discuss this.
Yeah, go lay on your couch andwe'll talk about it.
Are you going to lay on thevirtual couch?
No, I have a real couch rightthere.
I want you to be thinking, too,about your own celebrations,
because this is so good for youremotional, mental health as
Tony is sharing with us.
(02:14):
Oh, good Listening.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Ready set go.
Trisha, a long time ago youtalked about, I think, on here
or maybe you and I were talkingand it was about just getting
out five minutes of sunshine,yes, and so I normally start
seeing clients really early five, six, seven in the morning,
which is really funny because asa therapist, I thought, well,
there's some therapist law thatyou're not allowed to start
doing this before nine.
But then, as I start workingwith more people and then it
(02:40):
moved to eight and seven and sixand then with the advent of
virtual it can be whatever time,but I will work with some
people before they go to workand I really enjoy that.
So I would miss sometimes thesunshine.
And when you had mentioned that, I just I meant to tell you a
long time ago that I try to,even between clients, even if
it's just go out and walk aroundmy building or that sort of
(03:00):
thing, and I think of you oftenwhen I do that.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So I did that a couple of times this week.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So thank you, there's my.
I'm celebrating that andcelebrating you, Tricia.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh gosh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You're welcome, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Well, I appreciate that.
That was very awesome.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Well, today is March 15th and today we have two
inches of snow on the ground inSpokane.
Wow have two inches of snow onthe ground in Spokane, and I'm
not necessarily grateful forthat.
But a couple of weeks ago I wasgrateful to be able to take
Tricia and our son, braden, andwe flew from Spokane to Yakima,
where our daughter lives, and wespent the afternoon with them
(03:38):
and then flew back at night, andthat was exciting and fun, and
so I just got to do one of myfavorite things and do it with
my favorite people.
So that's a celebration for me,awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yes, that was so fun.
We got to see our fourgrandkids and we so enjoyed that
Tricia how about you?
Okay, well, my celebration isthat I just launched a new
program called Healing Hearts,and it's an eight-month program,
and this is a program whencouples literally are done, they
(04:12):
have thrown in the towel andthey can't take it anymore.
They feel so stuck, they're inthese painful cycles and they
just don't know how to breakfree.
So that is the couples that Iam looking for, and if that
happens to be you, give me acall, because I would love to
work with you and it's been sofun.
(04:34):
Hey, by the way.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I love that you're sharing that too and it's funny
because I will often think on myvirtual couch podcast or wake
up to narcissism.
It's so funny.
I will often not share thethings that I'm doing and I will
just joke and say I'm theworld's worst salesperson.
But I think it takes a lot ofcourage to say, hey, I can offer
this and I'm grateful that youdo, because I know that you have
a special set of skills and Iappreciate that I appreciate
(04:59):
Jameson Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
And you Well, thank you.
And you know it's been 37 yearsof compiling and putting things
together and just our ownmarriage that we've worked
through a lot of challenges, soI've got some pretty awesome
techniques and tools that I'veput together.
(05:21):
It's a full, very comprehensiveeight-month program, and
there's a lot of fun things todo too.
It's not just like heavy.
I've got some really fun things.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
And there's also some tools that we got from the
illustrious Tony Overbay.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Oh, yes, that are part of this and I give you full
credit.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I will take that credit Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yep absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
All right, well, thank you both for sharing your
celebrations.
Now, as we transition intoday's topic, I want to
acknowledge that the subjectmatter is super heavy and maybe
distressing to some listeners.
We'll be discussing a very,very tragic incident involving
domestic violence that resultedin the loss of a life and the
(06:07):
profound impact on a family.
Our aim is to shed light on therealities of domestic abuse
it's far reaching consequencesand to provide support and
resources for those who may bein similar situations in similar
situations.
So I'm going to share a storyand I'm going to actually read
(06:28):
it from the newspaper, becausethis is from a and I'm going to
get emotional.
But sorry, this is from a, myniece's in-laws family, and this
happened a couple of weeks ago.
They just had the funeral lastweekend, so it's been pretty
fresh for everybody.
Pretty raw.
(06:50):
Yes, pretty raw, but I did askfor permission to share this
today because it goes into aquestion from one of our
listeners.
On February 27, 2025, inKingston Washington, a
devastating event unfolded thatshook the community Celestia
Marie Contensi, a 48-year-oldmother of four, was tragically
(07:12):
killed in her home.
Her estranged husband, contensi, was arrested in connection
with her death.
This incident was not isolated.
With the culmination ofescalating domestic violence In
October 2024, celestia obtaineda protection order against
Catenci Due to prior incidentsof domestic violence.
(07:33):
Such orders are legal measuresto intend to protect individuals
from further harm byrestricting the abuser's access
to them.
Just two days before theincident, on February 25th 2025,
celestia filed for divorce, astep that often signifies a
critical point in abusiverelationships.
(07:53):
It's a period where the risk ofviolence can escalate as the
abuser feels a loss of control.
On the evening of February 26th,their 17-year-old son picked up
his dad from the SeaTac airportafter his return from a trip to
Mexico.
They drove to a property whichwas under construction and
designated as their father'sresidence due to the protection
(08:16):
order.
Upon arrival, his fatherallegedly threatened his son's
life with a nail gun, forced himto tie himself up with
extension cords and took hisphone and house key before
leaving him restrained.
The son managed to free himselfand ran approximately a mile to
their home.
Upon arrival, he discovered hismother's lifeless body.
(08:37):
She had been stabbed to death.
He found his 10-year-old andthree-year-old sisters hiding in
a bathroom.
They escaped through a windowand hid near a chicken coop
until authorities arrived.
Law enforcement apprehended thedad the husband, ex-husband
nearby after he crashed hisvehicle.
He was found with blood on hisclothes and he was taken into
(08:58):
custody without incident.
So this tragic eventunderscores the severe
consequences of domesticviolence and its profound impact
on families, particularly onchildren who witness such trauma
.
Exposure to domestic violencecan lead to a range of emotional
, psychological and behavioralissues in children, both in the
(09:21):
short and in the long term.
Children witnessing domesticviolence often experience
intense fear, anxiety anddepression.
These emotional scars canpersist into adulthood,
affecting their overallwell-being.
Such trauma may result inincreased aggression, social
withdrawal and difficulties informing healthy relationships.
Academic struggles are alsocommon due to concentration
(09:44):
issues.
Stress from domestic violencecan manifest physically in
children, leading to symptomslike headaches and stomach aches
.
Without prevention, theseadverse effects can extend into
adulthood, increasing the riskof mental health disorders and
perpetuating cycles of violence.
Understanding these potentialoutcomes highlights a critical
(10:05):
need for comprehensive supportsystems for children and
families affected by domesticviolence.
Finding a safe environment,access to mental health services
and educational support canhelp children heal and develop
resilience in the face of suchtraumatic experiences.
So this is like beyond heavyhere.
(10:27):
But what happens when thedamage has already been done,
when a parent is left trying tohelp their children heal while
navigating their own trauma?
This brings us to a heartfeltquestion from one of our
listeners, donna, who'sgrappling with the aftermath of
domestic abuse and its effectson her children and her new
(10:50):
relationship.
This is Donna's question.
Do either of you have anycomments first before we go into
her?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
question.
I jotted down some notes.
I appreciate you driving thisepisode, tricia, because there's
so many thoughts.
You driving this episode,tricia, because it's like I'm
there's so many thoughts, but Idon't I'm as I'm sounding right
now.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
This is where the ADHD is not a superpower, so it
can go a lot of differentdirections.
So, yeah, well, it's.
It's.
There's just so much.
There's so much here.
So I appreciate that I'll sharea question and we'll just
continue.
So Donna writes how can Iaddress the fact that my
children have been subjected totheir father's abusive behavior
for so long, leading to feelingsof abandonment and the
development of anxious, avoidantattachment styles?
(11:32):
They struggle with formingclose relationships, fearing
both intimacy and inevitablegoodbyes, especially given our
frequent moves from my ex's job.
Additionally, I find myselfgrappling with residual guilt
and empathy towards myex-partner, despite the harm he
has caused us.
How can I overcome thesefeelings?
(11:52):
Lastly, I navigate a newserious relationship.
What advice can you offer tohelp my partner understand and
cope with the ongoing challengesand fears stemming from my past
abusive relationship,especially considering the
potential threat my ex-partnerposes to our safety?
So, oh, my goodness, there areso many layers here and this is
(12:16):
so, so heartbreaking.
Donna, I just want to take amoment to acknowledge your
strength.
And she's actually part of ourgroup.
So Tony has a group, the WakingUp to Narcissism.
He's formed this platform forwomen to feel safe, to be part
of a very private group.
There's about 730 women inthere now.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
We have a group at this point, tricia, I mean, you
play a very active role in that,which I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Well, I appreciate that and yeah, so Tony and I, we
teach, we volunteer time andit's hard.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
It's heavy.
You're there for support aswell for them, as they share
their stories.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, and when you can see their healing and what
they're struggling with andthey're moving through things,
you're grateful.
You're grateful to be part ofthem because they are so
powerful and they don't evenknow it.
But I just deeply appreciatewhat Donna has gone through.
(13:13):
I've actually had anopportunity to get to know her
and she's amazing and she's socourageous.
So I just want to thank you forsharing your question.
I know that's hard because Iknow that this may resonate with
others who may be facingsimilar struggles.
So, to understand the impact ofwhat Dawn is asking, I'd like
to start from the beginning.
She mentions attachment styles,which is so important because
(13:37):
children exposed to domesticviolence often develop insecure
attachment styles as copingmechanisms and these patterns
can deeply influence theirability to form and maintain
health relationships as copingmechanisms and these patterns
can deeply influence theirability to form and maintain
health relationships as theygrow.
So, tony, could you pleaseexplain anxious and avoidant
attachment styles and how theymanifest in children who have
(13:57):
experienced trauma?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, oh man, what a good question.
So I just did an episode thatmaybe we can even link to on the
virtual couch, right it went,went into the, because there's
some new data out that talksabout how you can change your
attachment style.
But it's later in life andwe're almost looking at that,
calling it your attachmentorientation, because there's
been a belief for a long timethat you were almost locked into
(14:21):
the type of attachment stylethat you had.
But but it doesn't make sense.
I mean, it only makes sensethat once I'm aware of it, yeah,
it's going to be a process toto change that attachment style,
but that it.
You know, I never want somebodyto feel like they're locked in
and they can't do anything aboutit.
But there's a.
There's four attachment stylesthat typically we talk about.
(14:41):
So you've got secure, which Ilightheartedly again, this is
probably not the greatestexample, to go to joke set today
, so I'll try to minimize them,but you know that's an
attachment style that is, it'sabout healthy relationships.
A secure attachment is onewhere you you have a secure home
base, you can return back toyour parent is they don't make
it about them, you know they arethere for you and it's so
(15:03):
fascinating that somebody thathas a secure attachment with
their parent they don't evenknow.
I'll give you a quick example,and from my own life is the more
I learned about these thingsattachment styles the more I
tried to help my kids have asecure attachment.
And I really believe my son,who's the youngest and they're
all adults now has probably themost secure attachment with my
(15:24):
wife and I, and they're alladults now has probably the most
secure attachment with my wifeand I.
And what's fascinating about itis this most simple example of
him quitting his full ridebasketball scholarship to decide
to play golf.
That he didn't consult with usand it's because he felt
confident in himself and he knewthat we would support him.
And that, I know it sounds sosimple, right, but it's like I
(15:45):
know that my other kids that are, so they're so amazing, but I
know that they are still worriedabout how my wife or I will
take something.
So they do want us to you know,hey, what is your opinion,
which I appreciate, which that'sthe part that's so interesting
about attachment styles, whereit sounds like a great thing for
a kid to say but are theyasking my opinion because they
(16:07):
really just want to integrate itin with what they are already
wanting to do?
Or they already have what theywant to do made up and they just
want to make sure that they'rethey've checked all their blind
spots?
Or are they saying, hey, I knowthat if I do something wrong,
that you will be upset, so Iwant you to tell me what to do
so that you will feel betterabout it, which I think is
unfortunately the way that mostof us are are showing up in our
(16:31):
relationships with our kids,whether they're little or adults
.
So that secure attachment is,it's healthy, it's positive,
it's a positive view of oneselfand others and relationships,
and you've got the secure basethat you can return to.
Even if you go out there andyou you don't, I want to say,
mess up.
I'm still such an act clinicianwhere it's like it isn't
messing up, it's you trying forthe first time, but you know
that you're not going to have aparent that's going to say told
(16:52):
you so or yeah, I don't thinkyou would be good at that.
I mean none of that Cause.
That's like how about?
Hey, whatever you want to do,opinion me as a not you older
version of me.
Yeah, I don't know what thatwould be like for you to do that
.
So you tell me what you thinkabout that or what you would
like to do, and I got your back.
(17:13):
So I think that's a real secureattachment.
But then you've got avoidant,which is a type of insecure
attachment, and you preferindependence.
But it isn't the cool versionof that.
It's that I can't count onanybody.
My parent wasn't therenecessarily for me, and so then
I am more avoidant and I, andthen, even when somebody tries
(17:33):
to insert themselves into yourlife, then it is.
You pull back even more.
And then you've got the anxiousattachment style where you worry
, you're so afraid of beingabandoned or rejected, that then
you just you know you cravethis closeness and this intimacy
, but then you can becomeoverwhelming.
I am an anxious attachmentstyle person, and so if I'm
(17:55):
sitting with my own thoughts oremotions all of a sudden, and
the other person's just on theother side of the room doing
their own thing, it's hard tonot think okay, why are they not
telling me that everything'sokay?
So, are things not okay?
Maybe I better just check in.
Okay, are you good?
Like, is everything, you sure?
And if they're like, yeah, I'mgood, okay, all right, you seem
like you're not.
So I feel insecure.
Can you make me feel betterright now?
(18:17):
But I'm not really sure whatit's going to take, so you're
probably going to get it wrong.
And then I'm even going to sayyou don't care about me and I'm
broken.
So that anxious attachment is apretty heavy one.
And so so often the anxious andthe avoidant find themselves
together and and it becomes this, this push, pull dynamic, and
then you've got thisdisorganized where it's a, it's
a combination, and then that'sone where sometimes I feel like
(18:37):
I am, I want to avoid, andsometimes I'm, I need somebody
to tell me I'm okay.
And so those three are all theones that I typically find
people.
Somebody with a secureattachment is not typically
coming into therapy becausethey're good, or, if they do,
(18:59):
they park their unicorn outsideand they pay with gold from
their leprechaun.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Wow, okay, that was excellent.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I want the validation .
I'm like, are you sure, wasthat okay?
Yeah, okay that was excellent.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Thank you so much.
I want the validation.
I'm like are you sure Like wasthat?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
okay, yeah, yeah.
Well, it was all right, I'll doit again.
I'll do it again, trisha, Ipromise I'll be better.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I'll make it perfect.
Yeah, no, so thank you.
Donna's question highlights somany challenges that other
victims of domestic abuse face,not just in their own healing
but in helping their childrenrecover as well.
So I want to continue with Tonyand Dr Jeff to break this down
step by step.
Tony, we just talked about howchildren are exposed to domestic
violence and how often theydevelop insecure attachment
(19:42):
styles.
Often they develop insecureattachment styles.
How can a parent like Donnahelp shift her children toward a
more secure attachment, evenafter experiencing such
instability?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, it's so good of a question and my heart goes
out to Donna as well, because Ithink one of the things where I
first go and it is heavy is thatsomeone doesn't get into this
place or position overnight,that I know that it has been a
long buildup of things and I wasthe notes I was jotting down
even while you were.
We're telling the story is andnone of this is meant with any
(20:14):
bit of shame or anybody didanything wrong, because it's
just we find ourselves inrelationships with typically the
familiar and I'll just take aquick tangent.
I can think of one.
This is not one person thatcomes to mind where she was
married and then her husband.
There was abuse there and thenshe ended the marriage there and
(20:39):
then she ended the marriage.
And and I'm saying that thisway because usually the person's
you know, if there's physicalabuse, I'm gone, says the person
until there's physical abuse,and then they're still saying,
well, I don't think he'll do itagain.
And that's such a wild place towatch somebody go through.
But you want to be there tosupport them.
But this is cause.
That's why I say it's so uniquethat this lady she just like,
oh, he did that and but this isthat's why I say it's so unique
that this lady, she just like,oh, he did that and I was, I was
(21:00):
done, and I literally said, howdid you do that?
And then she had shared with methat her, that her parent had
said her dad had just alwaystold her like you don't put up
with that for a second, youdon't put up with that, and he
(21:21):
had modeled that.
You know, if somebody didsomething or whatever's, like
she said, her dad almost had thependulum swung too far over,
where he almost went too far,not giving someone a second
chance, but then, but then sheoperated from this place of oh
why, I'm not gonna put up withthat, and so good for her I know
but that.
but the reason I even say thatis like it's so rare to do that.
So somebody like donna'sposition, I think has this
opportunity now to try to createthis new dynamic with her kids,
but just know that so it almosthad to get to.
(21:42):
I hate saying it this way, butit's like nobody wants it to go
this way.
But now that it is here, nowyou have this opportunity to try
to change a dynamic in a familyand help your kids recognize
that hey, that isn't okay.
And one of these ways is by notmaking excuses for the abuser,
because so often this is wherethe I would say the wife in this
(22:02):
situation is typically thatwhat identifies pathologically
kind Kindness is great, but whenit's pathological it's to one's
detriment, and so that's thepart where I think the
pathologically kind piece comesin of I'm gonna continue to give
somebody the benefit of thedoubt, even when they're doing
things that I've told myself Iwouldn't put up with.
Or if somebody is allowingthose things to happen.
(22:27):
They really need to be able tolook introspectively and say why
am I allowing these things tohappen?
Is it because of the patternthat I saw modeled in my home?
Because if so, I now need tobreak this cycle, because am I
modeling this for my kids aswell, that it's okay to stay in
a relationship where there'sabuse?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So do you have any thoughts about how she can shift
her children toward a moresecure attachment?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah.
So I think a lot of it is goingto be, and it's so
uncomfortable because we all wewant to make things better right
now.
And I think I'm glad you're sogood at pulling me back into
there, because Cause I think, ohyeah, what I was starting to
say was uh, then I went on atangent, is it literally it took
so long to get to this pointthat it's the she's going to
want to just make them feelbetter right now, but it's going
(23:09):
to be a pretty gradual shift ofthey're going to need
professional help.
I mean, they really are,because typically the moms now
she's going through her ownstuff she's going to feel guilt,
she's going to feel like, whydidn't I do this sooner?
She's going to she needs somehelp with that, because there
needs to be an acceptance thatwell, I didn't know what I
didn't know, and I am here nowand now what do I do?
Moving forward?
(23:29):
Because that shame is there,it's our.
It's the way that we dealt withthings as a kid, where if we
beat ourselves up and got downsomebody, our parent, would come
in and say, hey, champ, it'sokay.
But I mean, Donna, I want herto know that it is okay, it
happened.
She didn't know what she didn'tknow.
Now here she is.
And so now, moving forward, findthose tools to be able to
validate your kids' emotions,that they're going to be upset,
(23:52):
they're going to be angry andtoo often that's where I was
going with that and give themspace and, yeah, exactly, and
allow them, cause it's going tofeel, make her feel bad, that
they are frustrated, angry.
And that's where often the mom,they have such a hard time
which I get of not saying youknow, hey, he, he was just your
dad's, just you know, he's not abad person, he's just going
(24:12):
through some stuff, or so youknow, do your best to not make
excuses for him.
I think that's where you canmeet your kid and say, man, what
is that Like?
How do you feel?
That sounds hard, you know.
And then and I think there's areal way to to not throw him
under the bus and still also sayI have been scared too, like
that has been really difficult,because now we're having a
shared experience with our kid,we're validating their emotions,
(24:35):
because if they're saying thatthey feel upset and hurt, and if
I'm, if that makes meuncomfortable as a parent.
So now I'm making excuses forthe, the abuser.
You know, then I'm, I'm doing acouple of things.
I'm showing my kid that theirfeelings are wrong with their
saying I'm so angry.
I'm saying, hey, don't, don'tbe angry, like right.
So I need to let them have that.
And then I also need to modelthat, yeah, I'm angry too, and
(24:57):
and now you can do somethingabout it, like we are not going
back into that again.
You know, this is where webreak that cycle, because all
those things are saying to yourkid your feelings are okay, I, I
, I'm not man.
That's where I was like earlier.
Oh, I have too many thoughts,because I've talked to plenty of
people that have said that theywatched things like that in
(25:19):
their family of origin and thatthey just thought, why did my
mom not leave, you know?
And almost like, did she notknow?
And then I will sit therethinking, oh no, I've worked
with that mom in that situationwhere she's saying I need to
make sure my kids don't know.
You know, I need to show themthat I am strong.
Well, the strength is doing thedifficult thing, and so often I
(25:42):
think the person in thatsituation thinks that I need to
just act like everything's okay.
I need to show the kids thatyou know, I need to make excuses
for the abuser.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I need to hold it together.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
He's strong, yeah right, but yeah, whatever that
strong means though.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And I think it's such a fine line between making sure
the children understand thetruth of the situation and not
being vindictive.
Yeah, that's a good point, andI think that sometimes who
doesn't want to be mad at theabuser and kind of and, like you
said before, throw them underthe bus and kind of, and, like
(26:17):
you said before, throw themunder the bus, right, and that's
, I think, the strength and thesecurity is being able to say
here's what's happened, here'swhere we are, and being able to
make that, of course, ageappropriate to the children.
Yeah, that's true too and thenproviding a safe environment for
them.
Hey, if I could add, jeff and Idon't mean to cut- you off.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I would say I don't mean to cut you off.
Obviously I do.
I'm literally cutting you off.
You still can cut, yeah, I will.
But there's also a part there,I think is so, and I like what
you're saying about being notvindictive, and I like that.
I want to hear what the kid'sexperience is, because I think
sometimes we don't even noticethat if I'm going to tell them
(26:59):
how, like the truth, which Itotally understand, they're
still, like you say, ageappropriate.
They may not even be reallyaware of some of the things
going on.
So at that point I might evenbe projecting things onto them
that, hey, champ, I'm sure thatyou're feeling this way, and all
of a sudden then they're likeoh, I'm not, but I should I be.
So I love starting from a placeof man.
How are you feeling?
What is that like?
(27:20):
Because we just have to createthat safety.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And I want to just share, too, that I think that
when you're living in a homelike that, they feel like it's
normal.
They may have all this anxietyand all this stuff going on, but
they don't know that it's notnormal.
Yeah, cause they've grown uplike that.
They've grown up with all thesedifferent things, and so they.
How would they know different?
But the one thing that I alsowanted to add, or ask this
question, and that is what doyou do when the spouse that is
(27:47):
abusive is sharing all thesethings about the other person?
Because they're trying to makethem look good, you know, and so
they're filling their little?
narcissism style yeah they'refilling their little brains with
all this because they want todeflect their own behavior on to
you know, definitely don't wantto have you know, reflect on
(28:10):
them and we get this all thetime in our group is you know,
this is what?
This is what's happening.
This is what he's saying to mykids.
What do I do?
How do I handle this?
What do I say?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
That's interesting too, tricia.
It's like and it's so easy forme to say this, and I always, I
do always it's not, it isn'talways statement all or nothing.
I know that it can sound easyfor me to say and it can sound
dismissive, but life is thislong game and those are in those
moments we want to deal with it, we want to feel better about
it now, we want to get rid ofour anxiety now.
(28:43):
And so this is where I do sayemotional consistency becomes so
important, because thenarcissistic person, the abuser,
they are going to lackemotional consistency.
And so it is going to be hardin some moments when the kid is
going to buy into thenarcissistic, let's say, dad's
narrative, and so in that momentit's hard.
The work, the differentiationwork in the the abused partner
(29:05):
becomes being able to to sitwith their own discomfort,
because it's easy for them tonot want to now vindictively
throw that partner under the busand in that sense he has now
power over her through the kid.
And so, right, I want to beable to provide that space,
because over time, you know, bytheir fruits you shall know them
, kind of a thing, and I knowthat now, from doing this long
(29:27):
enough that it is.
Somebody said the other day andI like it it's so cookie cutter
that he is going to say thingsto make her look bad, but if she
continues to show up they willeventually learn she is not bad.
And so then, and so that's,that's the long game.
And then this is where I thinkwhy, when people separate from
(29:47):
when they're in abusive oremotionally neglectful
relationships, why it has a netpositive effect.
Because when they're, the momis in the relationship with that
abuser and she's still tryingto manage his emotions and
buffer for the kids and the kidsare trying to read the room and
see what version of dad we'regetting today that when they
eventually separate over time,when she is with the kids, they
(30:09):
are going to have the chance tohave a secure attachment.
They're going to feel like thatshe gets to be curious, she's
not trying to manage thehusband's emotions, and so
they're going to start to feelbecause the kid gets their sense
of self from externalvalidation.
So they'll get a realconnection with her because now
she can be curious, she canvalidate their feelings and she
can be there for them and be herbest self.
And they're going to go meetwith dad whenever, and dad's
(30:31):
still going to be somethingdifferent.
Yes, feel exactly so.
Now they're going to realize oh, dad is the one now that's like
manipulative Dad is the onethat is diffusing his, his anger
, his frustration.
Sometimes he's going to beDisneyland dad.
Sometimes he's going to say shejust wants all my money
sometime.
So they're learning now.
I almost think that now talkabout that polarity.
Now they get to see truly whata real attachment looks like and
(30:54):
what a surface level one lookslike.
But it's the long game and thatcan be really frustrating.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, exactly, that's so good.
Thank you for sharing that, andI'm glad that that question
came up, because we get that allthe time in our group.
Dr Jeff, from a medicalstandpoint, we know that living
in chronic fear takes a hugetoll on the body.
What are some of the physicaleffects of prolonged stress and
(31:19):
trauma, especially in children?
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Oh boy, big question when this kind of trauma in
children happens.
First of all, their level ofcortisol is elevated on an
ongoing basis, so they're infight or flight or fawn or
freeze more often than not, andso they don't do a very good job
(31:42):
of coping with life in general.
They're often having trouble inschool, they act out in ways
that they don't even understand,and because children,
especially in the younger agegroups, they're really not that
good at understanding their ownfeelings, especially in the
younger age groups, they'rereally not that good at
understanding their own feelings, and so when you say what's
wrong, they go I don't know, I'mjust mad, you know.
(32:03):
Or they don't even have a clueof why they're acting the way
they are.
So the way through that isfirst of all to try and get them
out of the situations that arecausing this ongoing fear and
problem, and that's sometimeshard for the abused spouse to
provide.
(32:24):
Often the abuser is the this isa typical, but it's not always
this way but it's typically themale that's the abuser and it's
the female who's being abused,and also the male is often the
breadwinner.
So they have a difficult timeextracting themselves away from
(32:45):
being provided for and theirchildren to these abusers
because they're afraid of losingthe financial support that
(33:07):
they're getting.
So getting to the place wherethey can provide a safe
environment is really the onlyway that they can change this
direction for their children,and there are lots and lots of
resources for that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And we'll talk about some of those too.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Okay, so there are resources, but it's to make that
change.
With, especially, the threat ofviolence, that is a very
difficult thing for the personwho's being abused to walk
through.
And those children?
Now what other things happen tothose kids?
They tend to be poor performersin school to maintain
(33:53):
relationships with their friendsbecause they are acting out in
ways that other friends thathave normal attachment even, or
even some other differentattachment styles.
They just can't put up withthese poor kids and so they need
, like Tony said before,professional help, and it's
going to be the long game, butthe first course and the first
(34:17):
step is safety.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Well, and I'm just going to add to that, going back
to the first story, withCelestia and her family, she had
a restraining order and I guessthat day, the day before so,
the husband came in on a flightevening flight or nine o'clock
at night and then this eventhappened at 1 am.
(34:39):
But what was interesting isthere was a car that.
So the neighbors all knew aboutthis restraining order and were
protecting her too, and veryaware of everything going on.
But there was a car that hadpulled up and so they called the
police that day, just hoursbefore so that's what's so
(35:00):
heartbreaking is, the policeactually were there that day and
uh, so people were trying towatch over her and help her, and
so that was just still so sad.
What was?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
that.
Well, what's so difficult aboutthis is and I had even written
a note that says you never thinkthat this will happen to you
unless it does but then and thebut.
I'm speaking out of both sidesof my mouth on this as well,
because the fear of this, likethe, the things that don't
happen very often can also keepsomeone from doing things like
(35:33):
trying to get help, becausethey're so worried that it will
trigger the person to dosomething.
So I, it, just I.
My heart goes out to the yeahbuts.
You can, yeah, but anything.
Here it's almost like, well,yeah, but if I do the
restraining order, then he'sgoing to lose his mind, because
I've read this story but I'vealso worked with plenty, plenty
of people that get a restrainingorder and it works.
It does I mean the majority ofpeople it works.
(35:55):
But then you'll hear one ofthese and then I I always feel
bad where somebody will say,yeah, but I read one time that,
and then it's, and then it'ssound.
That's where it just gets outin the weeds.
Because then I'm now sayingI've never been you.
You know I've.
I've got my experience withother people that are in similar
situations but different, whereit's worked.
But there is the chance thatyou know there is Dateline NBC
(36:17):
for Pete's sake, and that youknow that stuff, their stories
and every and so it's so hard.
And then the person that isnavigating it, like Donna, is
where I'm going to say theiremotional baseline is fairly low
, dr Jeff, their cortisol levelsare high.
And so I think, going back tothis long game I was thinking
about I don't know what year itwas, probably in the 80s, 90s
(36:37):
the Julia Roberts movie Sleepingwith the Enemy.
Do you guys remember that?
Are we of age?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I think I remember that, yes.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And it probably is completely different.
It was probably a rom-com.
I know it wasn't that, but Iwas going to say I'd probably
forgotten truly and confabulatedthe story.
But it was like she had justplotted for so long what her
escape would look like.
And I've thought about thatmany times where when I'm
working with somebody and theyfeel trapped, like Dr Jeff
saying, when it's thebreadwinner and they feel
financially stuck and I meanI've had people that have it's
(37:06):
been years where they've justhad to start thinking and
dreaming and hoping and they'vestarted to saving money and
dreaming and hoping and they'vestarted to saving money.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yes, going back to school online.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I've had somebody.
I had somebody sneak an onlinedegree for three years, you know
, and their, their spouse didn'tknow, I mean.
So there's so many ways to toraise that baseline, even when
you're going through a lot ofthings.
And that's one of the mostdifficult things, cause I go
back to my beloved acceptanceand commitment therapy, where
it's the first time you're beingyou going through life in that
moment, with all the thingsyou're going through, so it
(37:37):
could look a lot of differentways.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, those comments,
tony.
I have another question.
So many parents worry thattheir children will carry these
patterns into adulthood.
What steps can Donna take tohelp her children break the
cycle and develop healthyrelationships?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
finding group or community, whether it's through
sports or theater or you know,finding a real sense of purpose.
Because I think, yeah, what DrJeff's talking about is that
they typically do start toisolate or do worse in school or
feel like what's wrong withthem or then turn down healthy
coping mechanisms.
So this is where I think thatjust helping somebody find
community is a really good idea.
A church group or you knowsomething where you can really
get a kid involved, where theyaren't just in their head and
(38:35):
isolating and in their room.
You know that sort of thing canbe a real big step.
Because a lot of times even Iused to do more teenager therapy
.
I really don't do much of thatanymore, but it's fascinating
because even teenager therapy, aparent is going to send a kid
to therapy and say and basicallyand basically with this thought
of can you fix him?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Fix him.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
And then I know teenager therapy is a long game
because the teenager isn't theone typically that says, hey, I
think I want to go talk to somebald old man about my problems
that I've never even know thatthey exist.
But then if they go and it'sregular and it's consistent, a
good therapist or coach whoknows the world of the teenager
is going to in essenceacknowledge I know that you
(39:13):
don't necessarily want to behere, but since we're here,
let's play some games.
Let me ask you questions.
Help me understand high schoolthese days and it becomes a
rapport building concept.
So then when the kid eventuallydoes feel safe, now they may
actually say, hey, I think I'mcurious what you have an opinion
on.
I'm probably not going to do it, but you know, and that's such
a long game and I've had reallysuccessful stories with that,
(39:35):
but I'm talking it's years, youknow, down the road,
unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So, Tony, what age could you recommend for children
that are in these situations?
How young can you have a childin therapy?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
So so this is.
I will say this is not.
I don't know this area, so Irefer.
Matter of fact, I know someone.
I think we should have come onhere and talk to an amazing
child therapist who also has areally fascinating backstory.
What's her?
name Her name is Jamie Miller.
She's written a book aboutparenting, she's been on the
View she's she's the most humbleperson in the world, but she
(40:11):
she's my go-to for kid therapyand because play therapy is such
a thing, so you can get a kidinto therapy.
But what therapy looks like isso different and what is
fascinating is okay, quick tripdown memory lane when you get
out of grad school you have totake a practicum course,
basically going and doingvolunteer therapy at a nonprofit
(40:32):
and, shockingly, not knowing myADHD at the time, I put that
off.
So then most of the practicumsites were taken, so I ended up
doing mine with.
The company was called, or thegroup was called the Child Abuse
Prevention Council, and so thenI was doing kid therapy with
people that were mandated to bethere.
So I got really good at Jengaand other board games, but
because when you're playinggames the kids can express
(40:58):
themselves.
But I also learned of somethings like sand tray therapy,
and I remember thinking I justdidn't get it until you were
finally playing in a sand traywith a kid who is now getting
the army men and justaggressively fighting with each
one of them or having them dothings that like okay, why would
a kid know that that's what youknow?
Or having them do things thatlike okay, why would a kid know
that that's what you know?
Barbie and Ken could do, if youknow what I mean.
(41:19):
Yeah, but it's like it finallymade sense of where, oh, play
therapy they, if they didn'tknow, if they didn't hear things
, if they didn't see things,then they wouldn't have their,
their toys acting out thesethings.
So it just became fascinating.
But as soon as I was done withmy practicum, I realized, and I
felt bad at the time oh, I don't, I'm not a good kid therapist
because I kept wanting to win atJenga, you know, all of a
sudden I'm like, okay, like I,yeah, anyway, nothing but jokes
(41:41):
there.
But I think it's importantbecause you can get a kid into
therapy.
But it's not talk therapy andit is play therapy or art
therapy or, and those things aresignificant.
But I just don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Animal therapy yeah, good for children.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I'm trying to get an equine therapist on my virtual
couch podcast because I had aclient that they were doing
equine therapy and it wasfascinating because you can't
gaslight a horse, apparently,and they're going to feel your
energy and vibe and so that's areally neat thing too.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to do therapy.
(42:15):
What is it Getting a kid intodance, I mean like movement and
things like that.
So I just think there's a lotof different ways to just get a
kid involved so they'll start tofeel and interact and do.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
And I think feeling is so key because so often they
just bottle those things upbecause they feel shame.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I think boys especially need to have
something where they're physical, yes, where there's physical
movement, where they're taking abat and hitting a ball or
they're up against each othergetting tackled or they're
tackling someone and there's alot of aggression that can be
taken out in positive ways, thatway that I think that is super
(43:01):
helpful.
But getting it, you know youhave to match the kid with the
right activity and some kids,you know they may be, they
really need to have somethingwhere they're hitting something
but yet they're so little thatthey get creamed every time they
go to football.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
So you know there's just… oh, martial arts with kids
.
I know there's some studies outthere.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because a lot of martial arts.
There isn't a lot of hitting ofeach other, there's a lot of
discipline and understanding.
That's a really good one, andunderstanding that's a really
good one, I think martial artsis.
You know, we've got someexperience with Taekwondo in our
family and it's been incrediblyhelpful.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yeah, definitely I'd love to Dr Jeff.
Do you have a gi that you wear?
Speaker 3 (43:45):
No, but my son who had yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I want to say something very quickly too,
before I forget.
This one is and I feel badsaying this next part because
the person in Donna's situationhas.
I can't imagine all theemotions that she's dealing with
as well, but it's hard becauseto not it's hard to keep your
your stuff together all the timearound your kids, but how
important that is to make sureyou have an outlet for a
(44:09):
counseling group, that sort ofthing.
Because while we want to showour kids that emotions are good
and that's where I go back tosecure attachment, I want to, I
want them to see a healthy doseof, you know, parental emotion.
But there's also a version ofthat where the parent is so
distraught that then the kidfeels like they have to manage
the parents' emotions.
Oh yeah, and I don't want that.
(44:31):
That happens a lot, yeah,parents emotions, oh yeah, and
and I and I don't want that thathappens a lot.
Right, yeah to for donna,because I can't, I cannot
imagine what she's going through, like I, for I literally can't,
and so I it's so easy for me tosay so.
You need to make sure you do itthis way, and I remember you
know not to go on.
But when my I had a daughteralmost dying a car wreck and I
had always said oh, you, youknow, you acknowledge your
emotions and you sit with themand you invite them to come with
(44:51):
you, and I think I've shared onhere before.
Then, after this happened, andthe third day in a row, where
I'm sobbing and eating wholebags of Reese's peanut butter
cups, I'm thinking, oh, I thinkI need to go back and apologize
to the people that I'm saying,oh, just take the emotions in
and invite them with you whereit's like I don't want to get
out of bed, and so I know thatit's.
We never know how it's going tolook until we're there.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
All right.
So Dawn also shares that shestruggles with feelings of guilt
and even empathy toward her ex,despite everything she and the
kids have been through.
Tony, why do people oftenstruggle with guilt and how can
she begin to release thosefeelings?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah, the back to that pathological kindness,
because you know, this is whereRoss Rosenberg calls it the
human magnet syndrome that theserelationships are often breakup
resistant and the person thatis typically the one that
finally breaks up with or callsit is that it has to almost
always be the pathologicallykind.
So, and that's where you cansee how long that's going to
take for that person who is kindto a fault to finally say I am
(45:58):
I'm going to say, quote, givingup on this person.
And I think that's one of thehard things and that's why the
whole concept of a trauma bondis so fascinating.
It's intermittent reinforcementthat the person that is
providing you with thepunishment also does provide you
with the reward.
So when you're doing therapywith somebody that's in the
middle of a trauma bond and youfinally they admit that this is
what he does and this is how Ifeel, and you start to validate
(46:20):
that, you watch quickly asthey're like, I mean, but it's
not all bad, I mean he's goodtoo, I mean, and you watch that
yo-yo.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
They feel guilty, they do.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
They feel guilty of saying because it's like, oh,
but I feel bad saying that andthat's where it's like, that's
where the work needs to start.
So, acceptance, of course she'sgoing to feel guilty and
empathetic, and this is thatwhole object relations.
She can view this entiresituation, the whole object of.
Isn't that fascinating that Ican be angry, I can be sad, I
can also have hope, I can thinkit's me, I can think it's him.
(46:50):
It's not all or nothing, youknow, it's not black or white.
And emotional maturity is beingable to let all of those
emotions in and then being ableto observe them.
At what times is it that I feellike I can't, like I just, oh, I
want to reach out to him, causethat's the part where back to
the human magnet syndrome, andRoss Rosenberg talks about
pathological loneliness.
So when somebody who has been soused to interacting with this
(47:11):
other human, be it good or bad,to know that they exist, then
all of a sudden, when they don'thave that interaction, there's
a void left there and that thatleads to this pathological
loneliness.
And too often, you know, youreturn back to your drug of
choice, which is narcissistic,lover, and then the cycle
repeats.
And so just being able toacknowledge that, oh, this, I am
(47:31):
feeling it right now, or I amwanting to text him.
I often have clients that areexperiencing a trauma bond if
they can text me, and every nowand again when one does, and
especially if I'm not like Iforget that I suggested that I
get a text from you know, aclient.
She's like I just miss you sobad and I'm like, oh, this is,
this is kind of weird, you knowthey're.
They're like oh wait, no, she's, that's what she wants to text
(47:52):
the you know, the, the ex, youknow, because when she's feeling
lonely now and there's so manythings going on here, tricia,
she's also projecting onto himthat well, he then says right.
(48:13):
But now all of a sudden, oh hereshe is and he's like oh, I know
what to do with this.
I can manipulate her to make mefeel better, to take the one up
position, and that's why itbecomes so important to go no
contact or you know to, to blockpeople that are abusive.
But then we go back to thewhole problem here.
But that person that is beingasked to block them, well, I
feel bad because I know he willbe sad if he finds out he's
(48:37):
blocked.
No, no, he's not thinking aboutyou.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
And that feels bad to say, but it's more.
The reality From the bond is sosubdued, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Oh so, yeah.
So accepting the fact thatshe's having all those feelings,
all those emotions, is one ofthe first steps, and to be able
to recognize the patterns.
When do I feel this way?
A lot of women that I work with, it's big on the weekends or
the evenings when they are morealone, and so then you can start
to take action to make sure on.
You know, I've got a lady rightnow.
Sunday afternoons are the worst, and so now she's trying to
(49:07):
find ways to interact withpeople and communicate with
friends and be proactive.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Yeah, it wasn't part of Donna's question, wasn't it?
How to help her currentrelationship.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yeah, so that's the next question that I have
actually, oh sorry.
I always get ahead of things.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
I was just thinking because you said that part.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
That is so good, but before I get to that one, I have
two more questions.
This is for Jeff, and it's oneof the biggest challenges after
leaving an abusive relationshipis rebuilding a sense of safety,
not just emotionally, butpractically as well.
Dr Jeff, what would yourecommend to Donna, who's still
dealing with the threat of herex and the fear that he could
(49:49):
harm her or her children?
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Oh gosh, the fear that he could harm her or her
children.
Oh gosh.
The hard part about this isthat she still, as I recall
she's still sharing or has somecontact with her children, and
he has the children most of thetime, so he's got a lever over
her.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, he tricked her into signing something and so he
does have custody and she'sdesperately trying to get those
children back.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Okay.
So this puts an incredibletwist on how to make this thing
work, because the children arethe lever, they are the tool
that he's using against her, andthat is, I think, a typical
tool, for the abuser is to usethe children against the person
(50:35):
who's abused.
And, if you can, the good thingto do in my mind is to get them
away from the abuser and toblock that even for a time,
because sometimes the best thingyou can do is separate from
that and allow some normalcy tohappen.
(50:55):
That isn't always easy to do,nor is it always possible to do,
but having some distance there,I think, is probably the first
step besides recognizing thatthere's a problem.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, thank you, that was excellent and I
full-heartedly agree witheverything that you's a problem.
Yeah, thank you, that wasexcellent and I full heartedly
agree with everything that youboth are sharing.
So this is our last question.
Donna is now in a seriousrelationship, but her partner's
struggling to understand theweight of what she's been
through, tony.
How can she help him navigateand support her healing without
(51:32):
it overwhelming the relationship?
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Great question and normal, very normal, and this is
where she needs to have thecourage to be known.
So oftentimes I think someonein her situation worries that if
I express these things then hewill think I am crazy.
But in a healthy relationshipshe needs to give him the this
will sound like I'm being tryingto be funny relationship.
She needs to give him the thiswill sound like I'm being trying
to be funny, but she needs togive him the opportunity to
(51:56):
think that she is crazy, becauseif it's a healthy relationship,
he will not think that.
He will be grateful that she'sopening up and I loved with
Tiffany the interview we did.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Right that we talked a little bit about this, of
where you have to be able toexpress yourself, to give that
person the opportunity to knowyou, and if you do express
yourself and they don't takethat well, that that is the red
flag.
So it will also help you reallyunderstand the relationship and
this relationship.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
I think he's scared.
I think he's scared of whathe's seen and the potential.
I think he has children too.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And that's a different aspect too.
So I mean, if there's thechance where she's holding back
of how she's feeling, that's onething, but if the situation is
scary, then there is anacceptance of that situation is
scary, then there is anacceptance of that, and that's.
That can be really difficultbecause you know he has a right
to feel all the way the feelingshe does as well.
I guess I was looking at thatas one of these where she's not
(53:02):
right she's, she's holding backand assuming when he does
something.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
I think she's sharing everything.
I think he's afraid of thewhole situation and the ex
coming into, creating harm,creating issues.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
And I hear that I've worked with that and there's
just so many variables.
This is sometimes where I knowthat people are looking to the I
want to air quote experts foranswers and I know that we can
provide just some answers to thebest that we know how.
But I hate this as a cop out.
But every situation has so manydifferent variables that I have
(53:39):
no idea what you know, whatthat feels like to be him, or,
or what what his tolerance is tostress, or what he's protecting
his kids.
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
You know, and he loves her and yeah, it's very
convoluted, I think.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
So I know that's not.
I don't have a good answer forthat, because then I want to do
what most therapists do and saythey must go to therapy, and
then that's the way to just.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
Everyone needs therapy Right.
Push that off or coaching orsomething.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, that's hard, though that's really hard and
they need to go to the doctortoo there you go?
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Everyone needs a doctor.
Oh, yes, okay.
So, as we conclude, I want toexpress our deepest gratitude to
Donna for her insightfulquestion.
Your courage in sharing yourexperiences not only aid your
healing journey, but alsoresonate with many of our
listeners who may be facingsimilar challenges,
(54:33):
unfortunately.
We also want to extend ourdeepest, heartfelt condolences
to the family of Celestia MarieContensi, whose tragic loss
underscores the profound impactof domestic violence.
For those wishing to supporther for surviving children
during this difficult time, aGoFundMe has been established.
As close family members will beraising these beautiful
(54:55):
children.
We'll also include that in thelink in our show notes for
anyone interested incontributing.
And remember, if you or someoneyou know is experiencing
domestic abuse or violence ofany sort, resources are
available, such as the NationalDomestic Violence Hotline at
1-800-799-SAFE.
Again, it's 1-800-799-SAFE.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
Thank you, dr.
Jeff, and you are not alone.
Speaker 1 (55:20):
Yeah, you're not alone.
There's so many people, there'sa lot of resources out there.
That is the first thing thatjust came up when I searched
that.
So thank you, dr Jeff and Tony,for your invaluable insights
today and, to our listeners,thank you for being here and
supporting our show.
So please subscribe, leave us areview and share this podcast
with anyone who might benefitfrom this very difficult topic.
(55:42):
We'd love to hear yourquestions on mental health,
medicine, nutrition andrelationships.
Please send them to TrishaJameson coaching at gmailcom.
We're here to support you andanswer any questions you may
have, and I'd like to leave youwith this.
Remember you are not alone,just like Dr Jeff said, and help
is available.
Stay safe, take care and we'llsee you next time.
(56:03):
Goodbye everyone.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Bye everyone.
Thank you everybody.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to
share today's gems of wisdomwith you.
Your questions light up ourshow, fueling the engaging
dialogues.
I'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Hello and welcome to the Q&A File, the ultimate
health and wellness playground.
I'm your host, Tricia Jamieson,a board-certified functional
nutritionist and lifestylepractitioner, ready to lead you
through a world of healthdiscoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry ofdisease prevention to nutrition
, exercise, mental health andbuilding strong relationships,
all spiced with diverseperspectives.
(00:29):
It's not just a podcast, it's acelebration of health, packed
with insights and a twist of fun.
Welcome aboard the Q&A Files,where your questions ignite our
vibrant discussions and lead toa brighter you.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Q&A Files.
I'm your host, Trisha Jameson,a functional nutritionist and
lifestyle practitioner and alife coach, and I'm committed to
(00:51):
your health and your well-being.
Joining me today are my twoesteemed professionals, Dr Jeff
Jameson, a board-certifiedfamily physician, and Tony
Overbay, a licensed marriage andfamily therapist.
So glad to have you both herewith me today.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi everybody.
Esteemed professional, I feellike I should let me take my
monocle out and greetingseveryone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
So, before we delve into today's topic, let's take a
moment to share somecelebrations.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Hey, wait, wait.
So the times that I'm prepared,we've not done them.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Tony, you are never prepared.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
One time I was.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
One time you were.
I've been hearing that you'reasking for celebrations with
your clients in classes, and sothat makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, I am.
Yeah, I do it when I don't haveanything prepared.
So thank you.
I'm kidding, no they're awesome, I do.
I love it because it does makeyou think more of it.
I think it's interesting,though, that I know that we
could do them here.
So what is it?
What's the psychological blockthat's occurring where I'm not
thinking?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
about it.
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Let me go lay down on my couch.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Let's discuss this.
Yeah, go lay on your couch andwe'll talk about it.
Are you going to lay on thevirtual couch?
No, I have a real couch rightthere.
I want you to be thinking, too,about your own celebrations,
because this is so good for youremotional, mental health as
Tony is sharing with us.
(02:14):
Oh, good Listening.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Ready set go.
Trisha, a long time ago youtalked about, I think, on here
or maybe you and I were talkingand it was about just getting
out five minutes of sunshine,yes, and so I normally start
seeing clients really early five, six, seven in the morning,
which is really funny because asa therapist, I thought, well,
there's some therapist law thatyou're not allowed to start
doing this before nine.
But then, as I start workingwith more people and then it
(02:40):
moved to eight and seven and sixand then with the advent of
virtual it can be whatever time,but I will work with some
people before they go to workand I really enjoy that.
So I would miss sometimes thesunshine.
And when you had mentioned that, I just I meant to tell you a
long time ago that I try to,even between clients, even if
it's just go out and walk aroundmy building or that sort of
(03:00):
thing, and I think of you oftenwhen I do that.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So I did that a couple of times this week.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So thank you, there's my.
I'm celebrating that andcelebrating you, Tricia.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh gosh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You're welcome, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Well, I appreciate that.
That was very awesome.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Well, today is March 15th and today we have two
inches of snow on the ground inSpokane.
Wow have two inches of snow onthe ground in Spokane, and I'm
not necessarily grateful forthat.
But a couple of weeks ago I wasgrateful to be able to take
Tricia and our son, braden, andwe flew from Spokane to Yakima,
where our daughter lives, and wespent the afternoon with them
(03:38):
and then flew back at night, andthat was exciting and fun, and
so I just got to do one of myfavorite things and do it with
my favorite people.
So that's a celebration for me,awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yes, that was so fun.
We got to see our fourgrandkids and we so enjoyed that
Tricia how about you?
Okay, well, my celebration isthat I just launched a new
program called Healing Hearts,and it's an eight-month program,
and this is a program whencouples literally are done, they
(04:12):
have thrown in the towel andthey can't take it anymore.
They feel so stuck, they're inthese painful cycles and they
just don't know how to breakfree.
So that is the couples that Iam looking for, and if that
happens to be you, give me acall, because I would love to
work with you and it's been sofun.
(04:34):
Hey, by the way.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I love that you're sharing that too and it's funny
because I will often think on myvirtual couch podcast or wake
up to narcissism.
It's so funny.
I will often not share thethings that I'm doing and I will
just joke and say I'm theworld's worst salesperson.
But I think it takes a lot ofcourage to say, hey, I can offer
this and I'm grateful that youdo, because I know that you have
a special set of skills and Iappreciate that I appreciate
(04:59):
Jameson Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
And you Well, thank you.
And you know it's been 37 yearsof compiling and putting things
together and just our ownmarriage that we've worked
through a lot of challenges, soI've got some pretty awesome
techniques and tools that I'veput together.
(05:21):
It's a full, very comprehensiveeight-month program, and
there's a lot of fun things todo too.
It's not just like heavy.
I've got some really fun things.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
And there's also some tools that we got from the
illustrious Tony Overbay.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Oh, yes, that are part of this and I give you full
credit.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I will take that credit Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yep absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
All right, well, thank you both for sharing your
celebrations.
Now, as we transition intoday's topic, I want to
acknowledge that the subjectmatter is super heavy and maybe
distressing to some listeners.
We'll be discussing a very,very tragic incident involving
domestic violence that resultedin the loss of a life and the
(06:07):
profound impact on a family.
Our aim is to shed light on therealities of domestic abuse
it's far reaching consequencesand to provide support and
resources for those who may bein similar situations in similar
situations.
So I'm going to share a storyand I'm going to actually read
(06:28):
it from the newspaper, becausethis is from a and I'm going to
get emotional.
But sorry, this is from a, myniece's in-laws family, and this
happened a couple of weeks ago.
They just had the funeral lastweekend, so it's been pretty
fresh for everybody.
Pretty raw.
(06:50):
Yes, pretty raw, but I did askfor permission to share this
today because it goes into aquestion from one of our
listeners.
On February 27, 2025, inKingston Washington, a
devastating event unfolded thatshook the community Celestia
Marie Contensi, a 48-year-oldmother of four, was tragically
(07:12):
killed in her home.
Her estranged husband, contensi, was arrested in connection
with her death.
This incident was not isolated.
With the culmination ofescalating domestic violence In
October 2024, celestia obtaineda protection order against
Catenci Due to prior incidentsof domestic violence.
(07:33):
Such orders are legal measuresto intend to protect individuals
from further harm byrestricting the abuser's access
to them.
Just two days before theincident, on February 25th 2025,
celestia filed for divorce, astep that often signifies a
critical point in abusiverelationships.
(07:53):
It's a period where the risk ofviolence can escalate as the
abuser feels a loss of control.
On the evening of February 26th,their 17-year-old son picked up
his dad from the SeaTac airportafter his return from a trip to
Mexico.
They drove to a property whichwas under construction and
designated as their father'sresidence due to the protection
(08:16):
order.
Upon arrival, his fatherallegedly threatened his son's
life with a nail gun, forced himto tie himself up with
extension cords and took hisphone and house key before
leaving him restrained.
The son managed to free himselfand ran approximately a mile to
their home.
Upon arrival, he discovered hismother's lifeless body.
(08:37):
She had been stabbed to death.
He found his 10-year-old andthree-year-old sisters hiding in
a bathroom.
They escaped through a windowand hid near a chicken coop
until authorities arrived.
Law enforcement apprehended thedad the husband, ex-husband
nearby after he crashed hisvehicle.
He was found with blood on hisclothes and he was taken into
(08:58):
custody without incident.
So this tragic eventunderscores the severe
consequences of domesticviolence and its profound impact
on families, particularly onchildren who witness such trauma
.
Exposure to domestic violencecan lead to a range of emotional
, psychological and behavioralissues in children, both in the
(09:21):
short and in the long term.
Children witnessing domesticviolence often experience
intense fear, anxiety anddepression.
These emotional scars canpersist into adulthood,
affecting their overallwell-being.
Such trauma may result inincreased aggression, social
withdrawal and difficulties informing healthy relationships.
Academic struggles are alsocommon due to concentration
(09:44):
issues.
Stress from domestic violencecan manifest physically in
children, leading to symptomslike headaches and stomach aches
.
Without prevention, theseadverse effects can extend into
adulthood, increasing the riskof mental health disorders and
perpetuating cycles of violence.
Understanding these potentialoutcomes highlights a critical
(10:05):
need for comprehensive supportsystems for children and
families affected by domesticviolence.
Finding a safe environment,access to mental health services
and educational support canhelp children heal and develop
resilience in the face of suchtraumatic experiences.
So this is like beyond heavyhere.
(10:27):
But what happens when thedamage has already been done,
when a parent is left trying tohelp their children heal while
navigating their own trauma?
This brings us to a heartfeltquestion from one of our
listeners, donna, who'sgrappling with the aftermath of
domestic abuse and its effectson her children and her new
(10:50):
relationship.
This is Donna's question.
Do either of you have anycomments first before we go into
her?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
question.
I jotted down some notes.
I appreciate you driving thisepisode, tricia, because there's
so many thoughts.
You driving this episode,tricia, because it's like I'm
there's so many thoughts, but Idon't I'm as I'm sounding right
now.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
This is where the ADHD is not a superpower, so it
can go a lot of differentdirections.
So, yeah, well, it's.
It's.
There's just so much.
There's so much here.
So I appreciate that I'll sharea question and we'll just
continue.
So Donna writes how can Iaddress the fact that my
children have been subjected totheir father's abusive behavior
for so long, leading to feelingsof abandonment and the
development of anxious, avoidantattachment styles?
(11:32):
They struggle with formingclose relationships, fearing
both intimacy and inevitablegoodbyes, especially given our
frequent moves from my ex's job.
Additionally, I find myselfgrappling with residual guilt
and empathy towards myex-partner, despite the harm he
has caused us.
How can I overcome thesefeelings?
(11:52):
Lastly, I navigate a newserious relationship.
What advice can you offer tohelp my partner understand and
cope with the ongoing challengesand fears stemming from my past
abusive relationship,especially considering the
potential threat my ex-partnerposes to our safety?
So, oh, my goodness, there areso many layers here and this is
(12:16):
so, so heartbreaking.
Donna, I just want to take amoment to acknowledge your
strength.
And she's actually part of ourgroup.
So Tony has a group, the WakingUp to Narcissism.
He's formed this platform forwomen to feel safe, to be part
of a very private group.
There's about 730 women inthere now.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
We have a group at this point, tricia, I mean, you
play a very active role in that,which I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Well, I appreciate that and yeah, so Tony and I, we
teach, we volunteer time andit's hard.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
It's heavy.
You're there for support aswell for them, as they share
their stories.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, and when you can see their healing and what
they're struggling with andthey're moving through things,
you're grateful.
You're grateful to be part ofthem because they are so
powerful and they don't evenknow it.
But I just deeply appreciatewhat Donna has gone through.
(13:13):
I've actually had anopportunity to get to know her
and she's amazing and she's socourageous.
So I just want to thank you forsharing your question.
I know that's hard because Iknow that this may resonate with
others who may be facingsimilar struggles.
So, to understand the impact ofwhat Dawn is asking, I'd like
to start from the beginning.
She mentions attachment styles,which is so important because
(13:37):
children exposed to domesticviolence often develop insecure
attachment styles as copingmechanisms and these patterns
can deeply influence theirability to form and maintain
health relationships as copingmechanisms and these patterns
can deeply influence theirability to form and maintain
health relationships as theygrow.
So, tony, could you pleaseexplain anxious and avoidant
attachment styles and how theymanifest in children who have
(13:57):
experienced trauma?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, oh man, what a good question.
So I just did an episode thatmaybe we can even link to on the
virtual couch, right it went,went into the, because there's
some new data out that talksabout how you can change your
attachment style.
But it's later in life andwe're almost looking at that,
calling it your attachmentorientation, because there's
been a belief for a long timethat you were almost locked into
(14:21):
the type of attachment stylethat you had.
But but it doesn't make sense.
I mean, it only makes sensethat once I'm aware of it, yeah,
it's going to be a process toto change that attachment style,
but that it.
You know, I never want somebodyto feel like they're locked in
and they can't do anything aboutit.
But there's a.
There's four attachment stylesthat typically we talk about.
(14:41):
So you've got secure, which Ilightheartedly again, this is
probably not the greatestexample, to go to joke set today
, so I'll try to minimize them,but you know that's an
attachment style that is, it'sabout healthy relationships.
A secure attachment is onewhere you you have a secure home
base, you can return back toyour parent is they don't make
it about them, you know they arethere for you and it's so
(15:03):
fascinating that somebody thathas a secure attachment with
their parent they don't evenknow.
I'll give you a quick example,and from my own life is the more
I learned about these thingsattachment styles the more I
tried to help my kids have asecure attachment.
And I really believe my son,who's the youngest and they're
all adults now has probably themost secure attachment with my
(15:24):
wife and I, and they're alladults now has probably the most
secure attachment with my wifeand I.
And what's fascinating about itis this most simple example of
him quitting his full ridebasketball scholarship to decide
to play golf.
That he didn't consult with usand it's because he felt
confident in himself and he knewthat we would support him.
And that, I know it sounds sosimple, right, but it's like I
(15:45):
know that my other kids that are, so they're so amazing, but I
know that they are still worriedabout how my wife or I will
take something.
So they do want us to you know,hey, what is your opinion,
which I appreciate, which that'sthe part that's so interesting
about attachment styles, whereit sounds like a great thing for
a kid to say but are theyasking my opinion because they
(16:07):
really just want to integrate itin with what they are already
wanting to do?
Or they already have what theywant to do made up and they just
want to make sure that they'rethey've checked all their blind
spots?
Or are they saying, hey, I knowthat if I do something wrong,
that you will be upset, so Iwant you to tell me what to do
so that you will feel betterabout it, which I think is
unfortunately the way that mostof us are are showing up in our
(16:31):
relationships with our kids,whether they're little or adults
.
So that secure attachment is,it's healthy, it's positive,
it's a positive view of oneselfand others and relationships,
and you've got the secure basethat you can return to.
Even if you go out there andyou you don't, I want to say,
mess up.
I'm still such an act clinicianwhere it's like it isn't
messing up, it's you trying forthe first time, but you know
that you're not going to have aparent that's going to say told
(16:52):
you so or yeah, I don't thinkyou would be good at that.
I mean none of that Cause.
That's like how about?
Hey, whatever you want to do,opinion me as a not you older
version of me.
Yeah, I don't know what thatwould be like for you to do that
.
So you tell me what you thinkabout that or what you would
like to do, and I got your back.
(17:13):
So I think that's a real secureattachment.
But then you've got avoidant,which is a type of insecure
attachment, and you preferindependence.
But it isn't the cool versionof that.
It's that I can't count onanybody.
My parent wasn't therenecessarily for me, and so then
I am more avoidant and I, andthen, even when somebody tries
(17:33):
to insert themselves into yourlife, then it is.
You pull back even more.
And then you've got the anxiousattachment style where you worry
, you're so afraid of beingabandoned or rejected, that then
you just you know you cravethis closeness and this intimacy
, but then you can becomeoverwhelming.
I am an anxious attachmentstyle person, and so if I'm
(17:55):
sitting with my own thoughts oremotions all of a sudden, and
the other person's just on theother side of the room doing
their own thing, it's hard tonot think okay, why are they not
telling me that everything'sokay?
So, are things not okay?
Maybe I better just check in.
Okay, are you good?
Like, is everything, you sure?
And if they're like, yeah, I'mgood, okay, all right, you seem
like you're not.
So I feel insecure.
Can you make me feel betterright now?
(18:17):
But I'm not really sure whatit's going to take, so you're
probably going to get it wrong.
And then I'm even going to sayyou don't care about me and I'm
broken.
So that anxious attachment is apretty heavy one.
And so so often the anxious andthe avoidant find themselves
together and and it becomes this, this push, pull dynamic, and
then you've got thisdisorganized where it's a, it's
a combination, and then that'sone where sometimes I feel like
(18:37):
I am, I want to avoid, andsometimes I'm, I need somebody
to tell me I'm okay.
And so those three are all theones that I typically find
people.
Somebody with a secureattachment is not typically
coming into therapy becausethey're good, or, if they do,
(18:59):
they park their unicorn outsideand they pay with gold from
their leprechaun.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Wow, okay, that was excellent.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I want the validation .
I'm like, are you sure, wasthat okay?
Yeah, okay that was excellent.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Thank you so much.
I want the validation.
I'm like are you sure Like wasthat?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
okay, yeah, yeah.
Well, it was all right, I'll doit again.
I'll do it again, trisha, Ipromise I'll be better.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I'll make it perfect.
Yeah, no, so thank you.
Donna's question highlights somany challenges that other
victims of domestic abuse face,not just in their own healing
but in helping their childrenrecover as well.
So I want to continue with Tonyand Dr Jeff to break this down
step by step.
Tony, we just talked about howchildren are exposed to domestic
violence and how often theydevelop insecure attachment
(19:42):
styles.
Often they develop insecureattachment styles.
How can a parent like Donnahelp shift her children toward a
more secure attachment, evenafter experiencing such
instability?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, it's so good of a question and my heart goes
out to Donna as well, because Ithink one of the things where I
first go and it is heavy is thatsomeone doesn't get into this
place or position overnight,that I know that it has been a
long buildup of things and I wasthe notes I was jotting down
even while you were.
We're telling the story is andnone of this is meant with any
(20:14):
bit of shame or anybody didanything wrong, because it's
just we find ourselves inrelationships with typically the
familiar and I'll just take aquick tangent.
I can think of one.
This is not one person thatcomes to mind where she was
married and then her husband.
There was abuse there and thenshe ended the marriage there and
(20:39):
then she ended the marriage.
And and I'm saying that thisway because usually the person's
you know, if there's physicalabuse, I'm gone, says the person
until there's physical abuse,and then they're still saying,
well, I don't think he'll do itagain.
And that's such a wild place towatch somebody go through.
But you want to be there tosupport them.
But this is cause.
That's why I say it's so uniquethat this lady she just like,
oh, he did that and but this isthat's why I say it's so unique
that this lady, she just like,oh, he did that and I was, I was
(21:00):
done, and I literally said, howdid you do that?
And then she had shared with methat her, that her parent had
said her dad had just alwaystold her like you don't put up
with that for a second, youdon't put up with that, and he
(21:21):
had modeled that.
You know, if somebody didsomething or whatever's, like
she said, her dad almost had thependulum swung too far over,
where he almost went too far,not giving someone a second
chance, but then, but then sheoperated from this place of oh
why, I'm not gonna put up withthat, and so good for her I know
but that.
but the reason I even say thatis like it's so rare to do that.
So somebody like donna'sposition, I think has this
opportunity now to try to createthis new dynamic with her kids,
but just know that so it almosthad to get to.
(21:42):
I hate saying it this way, butit's like nobody wants it to go
this way.
But now that it is here, nowyou have this opportunity to try
to change a dynamic in a familyand help your kids recognize
that hey, that isn't okay.
And one of these ways is by notmaking excuses for the abuser,
because so often this is wherethe I would say the wife in this
(22:02):
situation is typically thatwhat identifies pathologically
kind Kindness is great, but whenit's pathological it's to one's
detriment, and so that's thepart where I think the
pathologically kind piece comesin of I'm gonna continue to give
somebody the benefit of thedoubt, even when they're doing
things that I've told myself Iwouldn't put up with.
Or if somebody is allowingthose things to happen.
(22:27):
They really need to be able tolook introspectively and say why
am I allowing these things tohappen?
Is it because of the patternthat I saw modeled in my home?
Because if so, I now need tobreak this cycle, because am I
modeling this for my kids aswell, that it's okay to stay in
a relationship where there'sabuse?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So do you have any thoughts about how she can shift
her children toward a moresecure attachment?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah.
So I think a lot of it is goingto be, and it's so
uncomfortable because we all wewant to make things better right
now.
And I think I'm glad you're sogood at pulling me back into
there, because Cause I think, ohyeah, what I was starting to
say was uh, then I went on atangent, is it literally it took
so long to get to this pointthat it's the she's going to
want to just make them feelbetter right now, but it's going
(23:09):
to be a pretty gradual shift ofthey're going to need
professional help.
I mean, they really are,because typically the moms now
she's going through her ownstuff she's going to feel guilt,
she's going to feel like, whydidn't I do this sooner?
She's going to she needs somehelp with that, because there
needs to be an acceptance thatwell, I didn't know what I
didn't know, and I am here nowand now what do I do?
Moving forward?
(23:29):
Because that shame is there,it's our.
It's the way that we dealt withthings as a kid, where if we
beat ourselves up and got downsomebody, our parent, would come
in and say, hey, champ, it'sokay.
But I mean, Donna, I want herto know that it is okay, it
happened.
She didn't know what she didn'tknow.
Now here she is.
And so now, moving forward, findthose tools to be able to
validate your kids' emotions,that they're going to be upset,
(23:52):
they're going to be angry andtoo often that's where I was
going with that and give themspace and, yeah, exactly, and
allow them, cause it's going tofeel, make her feel bad, that
they are frustrated, angry.
And that's where often the mom,they have such a hard time
which I get of not saying youknow, hey, he, he was just your
dad's, just you know, he's not abad person, he's just going
(24:12):
through some stuff, or so youknow, do your best to not make
excuses for him.
I think that's where you canmeet your kid and say, man, what
is that Like?
How do you feel?
That sounds hard, you know.
And then and I think there's areal way to to not throw him
under the bus and still also sayI have been scared too, like
that has been really difficult,because now we're having a
shared experience with our kid,we're validating their emotions,
(24:35):
because if they're saying thatthey feel upset and hurt, and if
I'm, if that makes meuncomfortable as a parent.
So now I'm making excuses forthe, the abuser.
You know, then I'm, I'm doing acouple of things.
I'm showing my kid that theirfeelings are wrong with their
saying I'm so angry.
I'm saying, hey, don't, don'tbe angry, like right.
So I need to let them have that.
And then I also need to modelthat, yeah, I'm angry too, and
(24:57):
and now you can do somethingabout it, like we are not going
back into that again.
You know, this is where webreak that cycle, because all
those things are saying to yourkid your feelings are okay, I, I
, I'm not man.
That's where I was like earlier.
Oh, I have too many thoughts,because I've talked to plenty of
people that have said that theywatched things like that in
(25:19):
their family of origin and thatthey just thought, why did my
mom not leave, you know?
And almost like, did she notknow?
And then I will sit therethinking, oh no, I've worked
with that mom in that situationwhere she's saying I need to
make sure my kids don't know.
You know, I need to show themthat I am strong.
Well, the strength is doing thedifficult thing, and so often I
(25:42):
think the person in thatsituation thinks that I need to
just act like everything's okay.
I need to show the kids thatyou know, I need to make excuses
for the abuser.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I need to hold it together.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
He's strong, yeah right, but yeah, whatever that
strong means though.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And I think it's such a fine line between making sure
the children understand thetruth of the situation and not
being vindictive.
Yeah, that's a good point, andI think that sometimes who
doesn't want to be mad at theabuser and kind of and, like you
said before, throw them underthe bus and kind of, and, like
(26:17):
you said before, throw themunder the bus, right, and that's
, I think, the strength and thesecurity is being able to say
here's what's happened, here'swhere we are, and being able to
make that, of course, ageappropriate to the children.
Yeah, that's true too and thenproviding a safe environment for
them.
Hey, if I could add, jeff and Idon't mean to cut- you off.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I would say I don't mean to cut you off.
Obviously I do.
I'm literally cutting you off.
You still can cut, yeah, I will.
But there's also a part there,I think is so, and I like what
you're saying about being notvindictive, and I like that.
I want to hear what the kid'sexperience is, because I think
sometimes we don't even noticethat if I'm going to tell them
(26:59):
how, like the truth, which Itotally understand, they're
still, like you say, ageappropriate.
They may not even be reallyaware of some of the things
going on.
So at that point I might evenbe projecting things onto them
that, hey, champ, I'm sure thatyou're feeling this way, and all
of a sudden then they're likeoh, I'm not, but I should I be.
So I love starting from a placeof man.
How are you feeling?
What is that like?
(27:20):
Because we just have to createthat safety.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
And I want to just share, too, that I think that
when you're living in a homelike that, they feel like it's
normal.
They may have all this anxietyand all this stuff going on, but
they don't know that it's notnormal.
Yeah, cause they've grown uplike that.
They've grown up with all thesedifferent things, and so they.
How would they know different?
But the one thing that I alsowanted to add, or ask this
question, and that is what doyou do when the spouse that is
(27:47):
abusive is sharing all thesethings about the other person?
Because they're trying to makethem look good, you know, and so
they're filling their little?
narcissism style yeah they'refilling their little brains with
all this because they want todeflect their own behavior on to
you know, definitely don't wantto have you know, reflect on
(28:10):
them and we get this all thetime in our group is you know,
this is what?
This is what's happening.
This is what he's saying to mykids.
What do I do?
How do I handle this?
What do I say?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
That's interesting too, tricia.
It's like and it's so easy forme to say this, and I always, I
do always it's not, it isn'talways statement all or nothing.
I know that it can sound easyfor me to say and it can sound
dismissive, but life is thislong game and those are in those
moments we want to deal with it, we want to feel better about
it now, we want to get rid ofour anxiety now.
(28:43):
And so this is where I do sayemotional consistency becomes so
important, because thenarcissistic person, the abuser,
they are going to lackemotional consistency.
And so it is going to be hardin some moments when the kid is
going to buy into thenarcissistic, let's say, dad's
narrative, and so in that momentit's hard.
The work, the differentiationwork in the the abused partner
(29:05):
becomes being able to to sitwith their own discomfort,
because it's easy for them tonot want to now vindictively
throw that partner under the busand in that sense he has now
power over her through the kid.
And so, right, I want to beable to provide that space,
because over time, you know, bytheir fruits you shall know them
, kind of a thing, and I knowthat now, from doing this long
(29:27):
enough that it is.
Somebody said the other day andI like it it's so cookie cutter
that he is going to say thingsto make her look bad, but if she
continues to show up they willeventually learn she is not bad.
And so then, and so that's,that's the long game.
And then this is where I thinkwhy, when people separate from
(29:47):
when they're in abusive oremotionally neglectful
relationships, why it has a netpositive effect.
Because when they're, the momis in the relationship with that
abuser and she's still tryingto manage his emotions and
buffer for the kids and the kidsare trying to read the room and
see what version of dad we'regetting today that when they
eventually separate over time,when she is with the kids, they
(30:09):
are going to have the chance tohave a secure attachment.
They're going to feel like thatshe gets to be curious, she's
not trying to manage thehusband's emotions, and so
they're going to start to feelbecause the kid gets their sense
of self from externalvalidation.
So they'll get a realconnection with her because now
she can be curious, she canvalidate their feelings and she
can be there for them and be herbest self.
And they're going to go meetwith dad whenever, and dad's
(30:31):
still going to be somethingdifferent.
Yes, feel exactly so.
Now they're going to realize oh, dad is the one now that's like
manipulative Dad is the onethat is diffusing his, his anger
, his frustration.
Sometimes he's going to beDisneyland dad.
Sometimes he's going to say shejust wants all my money
sometime.
So they're learning now.
I almost think that now talkabout that polarity.
Now they get to see truly whata real attachment looks like and
(30:54):
what a surface level one lookslike.
But it's the long game and thatcan be really frustrating.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, exactly, that's so good.
Thank you for sharing that, andI'm glad that that question
came up, because we get that allthe time in our group.
Dr Jeff, from a medicalstandpoint, we know that living
in chronic fear takes a hugetoll on the body.
What are some of the physicaleffects of prolonged stress and
(31:19):
trauma, especially in children?
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Oh boy, big question when this kind of trauma in
children happens.
First of all, their level ofcortisol is elevated on an
ongoing basis, so they're infight or flight or fawn or
freeze more often than not, andso they don't do a very good job
(31:42):
of coping with life in general.
They're often having trouble inschool, they act out in ways
that they don't even understand,and because children,
especially in the younger agegroups, they're really not that
good at understanding their ownfeelings, especially in the
younger age groups, they'rereally not that good at
understanding their own feelings, and so when you say what's
wrong, they go I don't know, I'mjust mad, you know.
(32:03):
Or they don't even have a clueof why they're acting the way
they are.
So the way through that isfirst of all to try and get them
out of the situations that arecausing this ongoing fear and
problem, and that's sometimeshard for the abused spouse to
provide.
(32:24):
Often the abuser is the this isa typical, but it's not always
this way but it's typically themale that's the abuser and it's
the female who's being abused,and also the male is often the
breadwinner.
So they have a difficult timeextracting themselves away from
(32:45):
being provided for and theirchildren to these abusers
because they're afraid of losingthe financial support that
(33:07):
they're getting.
So getting to the place wherethey can provide a safe
environment is really the onlyway that they can change this
direction for their children,and there are lots and lots of
resources for that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And we'll talk about some of those too.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Okay, so there are resources, but it's to make that
change.
With, especially, the threat ofviolence, that is a very
difficult thing for the personwho's being abused to walk
through.
And those children?
Now what other things happen tothose kids?
They tend to be poor performersin school to maintain
(33:53):
relationships with their friendsbecause they are acting out in
ways that other friends thathave normal attachment even, or
even some other differentattachment styles.
They just can't put up withthese poor kids and so they need
, like Tony said before,professional help, and it's
going to be the long game, butthe first course and the first
(34:17):
step is safety.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Well, and I'm just going to add to that, going back
to the first story, withCelestia and her family, she had
a restraining order and I guessthat day, the day before so,
the husband came in on a flightevening flight or nine o'clock
at night and then this eventhappened at 1 am.
(34:39):
But what was interesting isthere was a car that.
So the neighbors all knew aboutthis restraining order and were
protecting her too, and veryaware of everything going on.
But there was a car that hadpulled up and so they called the
police that day, just hoursbefore so that's what's so
(35:00):
heartbreaking is, the policeactually were there that day and
uh, so people were trying towatch over her and help her, and
so that was just still so sad.
What was?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
that.
Well, what's so difficult aboutthis is and I had even written
a note that says you never thinkthat this will happen to you
unless it does but then and thebut.
I'm speaking out of both sidesof my mouth on this as well,
because the fear of this, likethe, the things that don't
happen very often can also keepsomeone from doing things like
(35:33):
trying to get help, becausethey're so worried that it will
trigger the person to dosomething.
So I, it, just I.
My heart goes out to the yeahbuts.
You can, yeah, but anything.
Here it's almost like, well,yeah, but if I do the
restraining order, then he'sgoing to lose his mind, because
I've read this story but I'vealso worked with plenty, plenty
of people that get a restrainingorder and it works.
It does I mean the majority ofpeople it works.
(35:55):
But then you'll hear one ofthese and then I I always feel
bad where somebody will say,yeah, but I read one time that,
and then it's, and then it'ssound.
That's where it just gets outin the weeds.
Because then I'm now sayingI've never been you.
You know I've.
I've got my experience withother people that are in similar
situations but different, whereit's worked.
But there is the chance thatyou know there is Dateline NBC
(36:17):
for Pete's sake, and that youknow that stuff, their stories
and every and so it's so hard.
And then the person that isnavigating it, like Donna, is
where I'm going to say theiremotional baseline is fairly low
, dr Jeff, their cortisol levelsare high.
And so I think, going back tothis long game I was thinking
about I don't know what year itwas, probably in the 80s, 90s
(36:37):
the Julia Roberts movie Sleepingwith the Enemy.
Do you guys remember that?
Are we of age?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I think I remember that, yes.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And it probably is completely different.
It was probably a rom-com.
I know it wasn't that, but Iwas going to say I'd probably
forgotten truly and confabulatedthe story.
But it was like she had justplotted for so long what her
escape would look like.
And I've thought about thatmany times where when I'm
working with somebody and theyfeel trapped, like Dr Jeff
saying, when it's thebreadwinner and they feel
financially stuck and I meanI've had people that have it's
(37:06):
been years where they've justhad to start thinking and
dreaming and hoping and they'vestarted to saving money and
dreaming and hoping and they'vestarted to saving money.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yes, going back to school online.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I've had somebody.
I had somebody sneak an onlinedegree for three years, you know
, and their, their spouse didn'tknow, I mean.
So there's so many ways to toraise that baseline, even when
you're going through a lot ofthings.
And that's one of the mostdifficult things, cause I go
back to my beloved acceptanceand commitment therapy, where
it's the first time you're beingyou going through life in that
moment, with all the thingsyou're going through, so it
(37:37):
could look a lot of differentways.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, those comments,
tony.
I have another question.
So many parents worry thattheir children will carry these
patterns into adulthood.
What steps can Donna take tohelp her children break the
cycle and develop healthyrelationships?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
finding group or community, whether it's through
sports or theater or you know,finding a real sense of purpose.
Because I think, yeah, what DrJeff's talking about is that
they typically do start toisolate or do worse in school or
feel like what's wrong withthem or then turn down healthy
coping mechanisms.
So this is where I think thatjust helping somebody find
community is a really good idea.
A church group or you knowsomething where you can really
get a kid involved, where theyaren't just in their head and
(38:35):
isolating and in their room.
You know that sort of thing canbe a real big step.
Because a lot of times even Iused to do more teenager therapy
.
I really don't do much of thatanymore, but it's fascinating
because even teenager therapy, aparent is going to send a kid
to therapy and say and basicallyand basically with this thought
of can you fix him?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Fix him.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
And then I know teenager therapy is a long game
because the teenager isn't theone typically that says, hey, I
think I want to go talk to somebald old man about my problems
that I've never even know thatthey exist.
But then if they go and it'sregular and it's consistent, a
good therapist or coach whoknows the world of the teenager
is going to in essenceacknowledge I know that you
(39:13):
don't necessarily want to behere, but since we're here,
let's play some games.
Let me ask you questions.
Help me understand high schoolthese days and it becomes a
rapport building concept.
So then when the kid eventuallydoes feel safe, now they may
actually say, hey, I think I'mcurious what you have an opinion
on.
I'm probably not going to do it, but you know, and that's such
a long game and I've had reallysuccessful stories with that,
(39:35):
but I'm talking it's years, youknow, down the road,
unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So, Tony, what age could you recommend for children
that are in these situations?
How young can you have a childin therapy?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
So so this is.
I will say this is not.
I don't know this area, so Irefer.
Matter of fact, I know someone.
I think we should have come onhere and talk to an amazing
child therapist who also has areally fascinating backstory.
What's her?
name Her name is Jamie Miller.
She's written a book aboutparenting, she's been on the
View she's she's the most humbleperson in the world, but she
(40:11):
she's my go-to for kid therapyand because play therapy is such
a thing, so you can get a kidinto therapy.
But what therapy looks like isso different and what is
fascinating is okay, quick tripdown memory lane when you get
out of grad school you have totake a practicum course,
basically going and doingvolunteer therapy at a nonprofit
(40:32):
and, shockingly, not knowing myADHD at the time, I put that
off.
So then most of the practicumsites were taken, so I ended up
doing mine with.
The company was called, or thegroup was called the Child Abuse
Prevention Council, and so thenI was doing kid therapy with
people that were mandated to bethere.
So I got really good at Jengaand other board games, but
because when you're playinggames the kids can express
(40:58):
themselves.
But I also learned of somethings like sand tray therapy,
and I remember thinking I justdidn't get it until you were
finally playing in a sand traywith a kid who is now getting
the army men and justaggressively fighting with each
one of them or having them dothings that like okay, why would
a kid know that that's what youknow?
Or having them do things thatlike okay, why would a kid know
that that's what you know?
Barbie and Ken could do, if youknow what I mean.
(41:19):
Yeah, but it's like it finallymade sense of where, oh, play
therapy they, if they didn'tknow, if they didn't hear things
, if they didn't see things,then they wouldn't have their,
their toys acting out thesethings.
So it just became fascinating.
But as soon as I was done withmy practicum, I realized, and I
felt bad at the time oh, I don't, I'm not a good kid therapist
because I kept wanting to win atJenga, you know, all of a
sudden I'm like, okay, like I,yeah, anyway, nothing but jokes
(41:41):
there.
But I think it's importantbecause you can get a kid into
therapy.
But it's not talk therapy andit is play therapy or art
therapy or, and those things aresignificant.
But I just don't know.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Animal therapy yeah, good for children.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I'm trying to get an equine therapist on my virtual
couch podcast because I had aclient that they were doing
equine therapy and it wasfascinating because you can't
gaslight a horse, apparently,and they're going to feel your
energy and vibe and so that's areally neat thing too.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to do therapy.
(42:15):
What is it Getting a kid intodance, I mean like movement and
things like that.
So I just think there's a lotof different ways to just get a
kid involved so they'll start tofeel and interact and do.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
And I think feeling is so key because so often they
just bottle those things upbecause they feel shame.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I think boys especially need to have
something where they're physical, yes, where there's physical
movement, where they're taking abat and hitting a ball or
they're up against each othergetting tackled or they're
tackling someone and there's alot of aggression that can be
taken out in positive ways, thatway that I think that is super
(43:01):
helpful.
But getting it, you know youhave to match the kid with the
right activity and some kids,you know they may be, they
really need to have somethingwhere they're hitting something
but yet they're so little thatthey get creamed every time they
go to football.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
So you know there's just… oh, martial arts with kids
.
I know there's some studies outthere.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because a lot of martial arts.
There isn't a lot of hitting ofeach other, there's a lot of
discipline and understanding.
That's a really good one, andunderstanding that's a really
good one, I think martial artsis.
You know, we've got someexperience with Taekwondo in our
family and it's been incrediblyhelpful.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Yeah, definitely I'd love to Dr Jeff.
Do you have a gi that you wear?
Speaker 3 (43:45):
No, but my son who had yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I want to say something very quickly too,
before I forget.
This one is and I feel badsaying this next part because
the person in Donna's situationhas.
I can't imagine all theemotions that she's dealing with
as well, but it's hard becauseto not it's hard to keep your
your stuff together all the timearound your kids, but how
important that is to make sureyou have an outlet for a
(44:09):
counseling group, that sort ofthing.
Because while we want to showour kids that emotions are good
and that's where I go back tosecure attachment, I want to, I
want them to see a healthy doseof, you know, parental emotion.
But there's also a version ofthat where the parent is so
distraught that then the kidfeels like they have to manage
the parents' emotions.
Oh yeah, and I don't want that.
(44:31):
That happens a lot, yeah,parents emotions, oh yeah, and
and I and I don't want that thathappens a lot.
Right, yeah to for donna,because I can't, I cannot
imagine what she's going through, like I, for I literally can't,
and so I it's so easy for me tosay so.
You need to make sure you do itthis way, and I remember you
know not to go on.
But when my I had a daughteralmost dying a car wreck and I
had always said oh, you, youknow, you acknowledge your
emotions and you sit with themand you invite them to come with
(44:51):
you, and I think I've shared onhere before.
Then, after this happened, andthe third day in a row, where
I'm sobbing and eating wholebags of Reese's peanut butter
cups, I'm thinking, oh, I thinkI need to go back and apologize
to the people that I'm saying,oh, just take the emotions in
and invite them with you whereit's like I don't want to get
out of bed, and so I know thatit's.
We never know how it's going tolook until we're there.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
All right.
So Dawn also shares that shestruggles with feelings of guilt
and even empathy toward her ex,despite everything she and the
kids have been through.
Tony, why do people oftenstruggle with guilt and how can
she begin to release thosefeelings?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah, the back to that pathological kindness,
because you know, this is whereRoss Rosenberg calls it the
human magnet syndrome that theserelationships are often breakup
resistant and the person thatis typically the one that
finally breaks up with or callsit is that it has to almost
always be the pathologicallykind.
So, and that's where you cansee how long that's going to
take for that person who is kindto a fault to finally say I am
(45:58):
I'm going to say, quote, givingup on this person.
And I think that's one of thehard things and that's why the
whole concept of a trauma bondis so fascinating.
It's intermittent reinforcementthat the person that is
providing you with thepunishment also does provide you
with the reward.
So when you're doing therapywith somebody that's in the
middle of a trauma bond and youfinally they admit that this is
what he does and this is how Ifeel, and you start to validate
(46:20):
that, you watch quickly asthey're like, I mean, but it's
not all bad, I mean he's goodtoo, I mean, and you watch that
yo-yo.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
They feel guilty, they do.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
They feel guilty of saying because it's like, oh,
but I feel bad saying that andthat's where it's like, that's
where the work needs to start.
So, acceptance, of course she'sgoing to feel guilty and
empathetic, and this is thatwhole object relations.
She can view this entiresituation, the whole object of.
Isn't that fascinating that Ican be angry, I can be sad, I
can also have hope, I can thinkit's me, I can think it's him.
(46:50):
It's not all or nothing, youknow, it's not black or white.
And emotional maturity is beingable to let all of those
emotions in and then being ableto observe them.
At what times is it that I feellike I can't, like I just, oh, I
want to reach out to him, causethat's the part where back to
the human magnet syndrome, andRoss Rosenberg talks about
pathological loneliness.
So when somebody who has been soused to interacting with this
(47:11):
other human, be it good or bad,to know that they exist, then
all of a sudden, when they don'thave that interaction, there's
a void left there and that thatleads to this pathological
loneliness.
And too often, you know, youreturn back to your drug of
choice, which is narcissistic,lover, and then the cycle
repeats.
And so just being able toacknowledge that, oh, this, I am
(47:31):
feeling it right now, or I amwanting to text him.
I often have clients that areexperiencing a trauma bond if
they can text me, and every nowand again when one does, and
especially if I'm not like Iforget that I suggested that I
get a text from you know, aclient.
She's like I just miss you sobad and I'm like, oh, this is,
this is kind of weird, you knowthey're.
They're like oh wait, no, she's, that's what she wants to text
(47:52):
the you know, the, the ex, youknow, because when she's feeling
lonely now and there's so manythings going on here, tricia,
she's also projecting onto himthat well, he then says right.
(48:13):
But now all of a sudden, oh hereshe is and he's like oh, I know
what to do with this.
I can manipulate her to make mefeel better, to take the one up
position, and that's why itbecomes so important to go no
contact or you know to, to blockpeople that are abusive.
But then we go back to thewhole problem here.
But that person that is beingasked to block them, well, I
feel bad because I know he willbe sad if he finds out he's
(48:37):
blocked.
No, no, he's not thinking aboutyou.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
And that feels bad to say, but it's more.
The reality From the bond is sosubdued, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Oh so, yeah.
So accepting the fact thatshe's having all those feelings,
all those emotions, is one ofthe first steps, and to be able
to recognize the patterns.
When do I feel this way?
A lot of women that I work with, it's big on the weekends or
the evenings when they are morealone, and so then you can start
to take action to make sure on.
You know, I've got a lady rightnow.
Sunday afternoons are the worst, and so now she's trying to
(49:07):
find ways to interact withpeople and communicate with
friends and be proactive.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Yeah, it wasn't part of Donna's question, wasn't it?
How to help her currentrelationship.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yeah, so that's the next question that I have
actually, oh sorry.
I always get ahead of things.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
I was just thinking because you said that part.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
That is so good, but before I get to that one, I have
two more questions.
This is for Jeff, and it's oneof the biggest challenges after
leaving an abusive relationshipis rebuilding a sense of safety,
not just emotionally, butpractically as well.
Dr Jeff, what would yourecommend to Donna, who's still
dealing with the threat of herex and the fear that he could
(49:49):
harm her or her children?
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Oh gosh, the fear that he could harm her or her
children.
Oh gosh.
The hard part about this isthat she still, as I recall
she's still sharing or has somecontact with her children, and
he has the children most of thetime, so he's got a lever over
her.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, he tricked her into signing something and so he
does have custody and she'sdesperately trying to get those
children back.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Okay.
So this puts an incredibletwist on how to make this thing
work, because the children arethe lever, they are the tool
that he's using against her, andthat is, I think, a typical
tool, for the abuser is to usethe children against the person
(50:35):
who's abused.
And, if you can, the good thingto do in my mind is to get them
away from the abuser and toblock that even for a time,
because sometimes the best thingyou can do is separate from
that and allow some normalcy tohappen.
(50:55):
That isn't always easy to do,nor is it always possible to do,
but having some distance there,I think, is probably the first
step besides recognizing thatthere's a problem.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, thank you, that was excellent and I
full-heartedly agree witheverything that you's a problem.
Yeah, thank you, that wasexcellent and I full heartedly
agree with everything that youboth are sharing.
So this is our last question.
Donna is now in a seriousrelationship, but her partner's
struggling to understand theweight of what she's been
through, tony.
How can she help him navigateand support her healing without
(51:32):
it overwhelming the relationship?
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Great question and normal, very normal, and this is
where she needs to have thecourage to be known.
So oftentimes I think someonein her situation worries that if
I express these things then hewill think I am crazy.
But in a healthy relationshipshe needs to give him the this
will sound like I'm being tryingto be funny relationship.
She needs to give him the thiswill sound like I'm being trying
to be funny, but she needs togive him the opportunity to
(51:56):
think that she is crazy, becauseif it's a healthy relationship,
he will not think that.
He will be grateful that she'sopening up and I loved with
Tiffany the interview we did.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Right that we talked a little bit about this, of
where you have to be able toexpress yourself, to give that
person the opportunity to knowyou, and if you do express
yourself and they don't takethat well, that that is the red
flag.
So it will also help you reallyunderstand the relationship and
this relationship.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
I think he's scared.
I think he's scared of whathe's seen and the potential.
I think he has children too.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And that's a different aspect too.
So I mean, if there's thechance where she's holding back
of how she's feeling, that's onething, but if the situation is
scary, then there is anacceptance of that situation is
scary, then there is anacceptance of that, and that's.
That can be really difficultbecause you know he has a right
to feel all the way the feelingshe does as well.
I guess I was looking at thatas one of these where she's not
(53:02):
right she's, she's holding backand assuming when he does
something.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
I think she's sharing everything.
I think he's afraid of thewhole situation and the ex
coming into, creating harm,creating issues.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
And I hear that I've worked with that and there's
just so many variables.
This is sometimes where I knowthat people are looking to the I
want to air quote experts foranswers and I know that we can
provide just some answers to thebest that we know how.
But I hate this as a cop out.
But every situation has so manydifferent variables that I have
(53:39):
no idea what you know, whatthat feels like to be him, or,
or what what his tolerance is tostress, or what he's protecting
his kids.
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
You know, and he loves her and yeah, it's very
convoluted, I think.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
So I know that's not.
I don't have a good answer forthat, because then I want to do
what most therapists do and saythey must go to therapy, and
then that's the way to just.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
Everyone needs therapy Right.
Push that off or coaching orsomething.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, that's hard, though that's really hard and
they need to go to the doctortoo there you go?
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Everyone needs a doctor.
Oh, yes, okay.
So, as we conclude, I want toexpress our deepest gratitude to
Donna for her insightfulquestion.
Your courage in sharing yourexperiences not only aid your
healing journey, but alsoresonate with many of our
listeners who may be facingsimilar challenges,
(54:33):
unfortunately.
We also want to extend ourdeepest, heartfelt condolences
to the family of Celestia MarieContensi, whose tragic loss
underscores the profound impactof domestic violence.
For those wishing to supporther for surviving children
during this difficult time, aGoFundMe has been established.
As close family members will beraising these beautiful
(54:55):
children.
We'll also include that in thelink in our show notes for
anyone interested incontributing.
And remember, if you or someoneyou know is experiencing
domestic abuse or violence ofany sort, resources are
available, such as the NationalDomestic Violence Hotline at
1-800-799-SAFE.
Again, it's 1-800-799-SAFE.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
Thank you, dr.
Jeff, and you are not alone.
Speaker 1 (55:20):
Yeah, you're not alone.
There's so many people, there'sa lot of resources out there.
That is the first thing thatjust came up when I searched
that.
So thank you, dr Jeff and Tony,for your invaluable insights
today and, to our listeners,thank you for being here and
supporting our show.
So please subscribe, leave us areview and share this podcast
with anyone who might benefitfrom this very difficult topic.
(55:42):
We'd love to hear yourquestions on mental health,
medicine, nutrition andrelationships.
Please send them to TrishaJameson coaching at gmailcom.
We're here to support you andanswer any questions you may
have, and I'd like to leave youwith this.
Remember you are not alone,just like Dr Jeff said, and help
is available.
Stay safe, take care and we'llsee you next time.
(56:03):
Goodbye everyone.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Bye everyone.
Thank you everybody.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to
share today's gems of wisdomwith you.
Your questions light up ourshow, fueling the engaging
dialogues.
I'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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