62. Gaslight, Camera, Action! Spotting Fallacies Before They Fool You

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Have you ever walked away from a conversation feeling confused, defensive, and somehow at fault for something you didn't do? That's the disorienting power of logical fallacies – deceptive reasoning patterns that toxic partners deploy to maintain control and avoid accountability.

In this revealing episode, Tony Overbay and I decode the manipulative tactics that can make you question your own reality. We break down red herrings (distracting with irrelevant topics), straw man arguments (misrepresenting your position), whataboutisms (deflecting blame), and ad hominem attacks (targeting your character instead of addressing the issue).

What makes this conversation so powerful is our exploration of why emotionally immature individuals rely on these tactics. For many, it's not calculated malice but a desperate attempt to maintain a "one-up" position when they lack a solid sense of self. Understanding this doesn't excuse the behavior, but it helps explain why accountability feels so threatening to them and why they'll fight so hard to avoid it.

The most valuable takeaway? Practical strategies for maintaining your clarity when conversations twist. By pausing before responding, naming the tactic mentally, and remembering that you don't have to engage with every argument, you can protect your emotional well-being. We discuss how journaling creates a record that validates your experience when gaslighting makes you doubt yourself.

For the "pathologically kind" person caught in these dynamics, recognizing these patterns can feel uncomfortable – once you see them, you can't unsee them. But this awareness is the first step toward reclaiming your power and creating healthier relationships built on genuine communication rather than manipulation.

Ready to stand firmly in your truth? Listen now and discover how understanding logical fallacies can transform how you navigate difficult conversations and protect your emotional sovereignty.

Touch a nerve? Let us know, and leave a rating and a response. Questions? Send to us directly to [e-mail]. We can't wait to put YOUR question on The Q&A Files!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Q&A File, the ultimate
health and wellness playground.
I'm your host, tricia Jamieson,a board-certified functional
nutritionist and lifestylepractitioner, ready to lead you
through a world of healthdiscoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry ofdisease prevention, to
nutrition, exercise, mentalhealth and building strong
relationships, all spiced withdiverse perspectives.

(00:29):
It's not just a podcast, it's acelebration of health, packed
with insights and a twist of fun.
Welcome aboard the Q&A Files,where your questions ignite our
vibrant discussions and lead toa brighter you.
Welcome, friends, to anotherepisode of the Q&A Files.
I'm Tricia Jamieson, your host,a functional nutritionist and
lifestyle practitioner and alife coach, and I'm here with

(00:51):
our insightful Tony Overbay, alicensed marriage and family
therapist.
Tony, it's always so great tohave you on our show.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
It is so good to be here, and if there was ever a
time to go watch video clips ofus.
I am returning from spinalsurgery and I have the world's
greatest scar on my neck.
Do you see that?

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yes, it is pretty impressive.
I could see it right to thescreen.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm taking notes.
For any.
I need a good story.
I mean, I got involved in knifefight, the knife was stuck in
my neck, I saved a lady and somepuppies.
But I don't have the wholestory down, so I am taking
suggestions for the narrative.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Okay, well, we'll be thinking of them, and I know
that.
So Jeff isn't here with ustoday.
He's at a tennis tournamentwith our son, which I'll be
joining them in a little bit.
But I know that if he was herehe'd be wanting to ask you all
sorts of medical questions, soI'm glad.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
We'll save that for another time, right?

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yes, absolutely, we really will Cause without him
here.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Dr Jeff was one of the.
He was literally the firstperson that called it for what
it was when he saw my MRI andsaid here's what you're going to
need to do.
And it did and it all wentgreat.
And he's checked up on mepretty much daily, so I really
appreciate him.
That's been nice.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
He's pretty fantastic , so I love that.
Besides your recovery goingwell, pretty well, your surgery
went well as to be expected.
Do you have any othercelebrations you'd like to share
those?

Speaker 2 (02:15):
are some pretty decent celebrations there.
I know it's funny, but literallylast night my daughter Mackie,
who she and I do a podcastcalled the Mind, the Mirror and
Me, which I think is beautifulthere's probably 30 or so
episodes of that out there andshe'll join me on my lives on
TikTok or Instagram to dorelationship questions.
But she already is a licensedcosmetologist.
But when we moved to Arizonashe wanted a fresh start on

(02:36):
everything.
She'd had autoimmune diseasedetected.
She lost 70 pounds just throughhard work, diet and exercise,
felt amazing and said all right,part of this new journey is, I
want to do something new.
And she went to estheticianschool and she graduated last
night.
So we had the estheticianschool graduation last night.
She's already got a job and uhand so and she's given me, she's

(02:57):
given me many, many facials andskin routines along the way, so
I could not be happier.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
So that is that is a genuine celebration.
That is exciting.
Well, if we ever come down thatway, we'll have to make an
appointment with her.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, how about you?
Okay, tricia celebrations.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yes, my celebration is.
I'm heading to Utah next weekto see my grandchildren and our
kids, and I'm taking twograndchildren that are in Yakima
, which is about three and ahalf hours from here, with me,
and so they're going to go seecousins for the week, and then

(03:34):
I'll be back a week later.
So, I'm super excited.
I haven't seen these babies andour grandkids for over two
months, and that's been a longtime, so this Annie loves
grandchildren, so I'm excited.
But I want to follow up withyou, tony.
How's your diet going?

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Not good.
Yeah, not good at all.
Okay, because he promised, sowait a second.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yes, so on a previous episode he promised that he was
going to change his diet.
So we did a podcast onprocessed foods and ADHD and how
it impacts the brain and thegut, and so he was pretty
excited to make some changes.
So I had to just check up andsee where you did.

(04:20):
That's why I sent you thoseepisodes.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I know he literally sent me those.
So, yeah, but or yes, anne, orI really am In that moment.
Here's the funny story I wasgoing to say so actually this
week has been really goodbecause because everything I'd
read about this ACDF surgerysaid that after they move your
esophagus over for a couplehours, you're going to have this
I think it's called dysplasia,which is an incredible sore

(04:43):
throat.
For two or three weeks You'regoing to be on liquid diet, soft
diet, and I could not findanybody that didn't lose 10 or
15 pounds.
So in the three months or soleading up to surgery, right
Then three months or so leadingup to surgery, it hurt so bad
that I, you know, and you and Itraded a couple of texts where I
was going to exercise.
Anyway, my doctor said it's notlike you're going to hurt

(05:08):
yourself worse, but you're goingto deal with the pain, and I
thought I'm okay with that.
So I did as much as I could andit did hurt a lot, and so then
I really would back off and Iwas drowning my sorrows in food.
But it was also this immatureresponse of, yeah, but I'm going
to lose 10 or 15 pounds once,once I have surgery.
So I wake up from surgery, yeah,it's the most incredible sore
throat ever, and my first coupleof meals were a chocolate shake
and some mac and cheese andmashed potatoes.
But by the evening in thehospital then I was like it's

(05:31):
not so bad, and so then I ateeverything, and I ate everything
that entire weekend.
So not only had I already puton the 10 or 12 pounds that I
had planned on losing, but thenit turned on, oh, I'm sure.
But then it turned on, oh, Ihave Tricia, I have.
And I mean literally.
When I got on the scale of themorning of surgery, I thought,
okay, this is wrong.
And then she bumped it frompounds to kilos and I was like,

(05:52):
thank you, cause that that looksa little more palatable.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Oh my goodness, yeah, but so it's I.
I actually can see it in yourright earlobe.
You're right, I can see thatyou have put on weight.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Okay, don't make me stand up and show love handles,
because this is bad.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, well, now.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
I'm on it Now.
I'm on it.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, well, like I said, I say those two episodes
so you can just have a reminderof the things that you wanted to
change.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Thank you, I appreciate the reminder.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Okay, so let's dive into today's question and it
comes from a wonderful person.
Her name is Bella and she's amember of our group and it's
very powerful.
So we've mentioned severaltimes before that Tony and I
teach in a group that he puttogether and they are just

(06:52):
basically from narcissisticpartners.
And then they come into thisprivate group that we support
and Tony and I teach and Tony'samazing and he's a lifesaver to
so many of these women?
All right, this is her question.
She says I've started noticingthat when I make choices to

(07:14):
protect myself, like datingsomeone new or creating distance
from my ex, he twists theconversation to make it seem
like I'm the problem.
He brings up my actions todistract from his past abuse,
things like lying, cheating andmanipulation.
I've come to realize he's usinglogical fallacies like the red
herring and straw man to shiftblame and avoid accountability.

(07:38):
Which fallacies do victimsoften overlook, and how can
understanding these fallacieshelp individuals recognize
manipulation and maintain theirown emotional safety and clarity
?
So first of all, Bella, thankyou for this question and for
your courage to share, and it'sso well articulated and

(07:58):
incredibly insightful.
So let's start from the top.
So for those of you potentiallyhearing these terms for the
first time and wondering what afallacy is, let's start there.
So I'm just gonna share realquick and then I'm gonna ask
Tony a ton of questions.
But a fallacy is a mistakenbelief or a flawed way of
thinking that leads to invalidor a misleading argument.
In conversations, a fallacyoften sounds logical or

(08:23):
persuasive on the surface, butwhen you look closer it's built
on faulty reasoning, distractionor emotional manipulation.
Fallacies derail honestcommunication and make it hard
to resolve conflict, especiallyin emotionally charged
relationships.
So, Tony, as we're talkingabout fallacies today and I know

(08:45):
they can sound like somethingyou'd hear in a debate class,
but these show up in everydayarguments, yeah, especially in
unhealthy dynamics Can youexplain why learning about
fallacies matters in real lifecommunication and how they show
up in our relationships?

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, this is, and thank you, bella.
It's such a good questionbecause there's so much that
we've led up to in previousepisodes about what do we do
with our discomfort, or how dowe get out of our discomfort, or
how do we shift the blame ontosomeone else so that we don't
have to deal with our owngarbage that we bring into a
relationship.
And so the dynamic that we'retalking about now is you've got

(09:23):
and I refer, I call them thepathologically kind, the person
who is going to go overboard,maybe to their detriment, giving
someone the benefit of thedoubt, or being kind, or being
willing to go work on whateverit is.
So let's just say, forsimplicity's sake, the
narcissist will say, well, youknow, that's not even true, or
will you do this too?
Or, but they can, just they cansend the pathologically kind

(09:49):
person on a goose chase.
That has nothing to do withwhat the pathologically kind
person is saying or how they'reshowing up in their life, but
that pathologically kind personis going to feel like, well, I
can, I can show them thatthey're not, that they're not
accurate, or I can prove to themthat they don't really
understand and that I'm not theperson they think I am, so I'll
go do all the work.
So they might even say well, Idon't even like the way that you

(10:10):
say that and your tone is off.
I hear that one so often.
So I've got somebody cominginto my office working on their
tone when I know that their toneis fine.
But all that that narcissisticperson has to do is say, well,
geez, if you wouldn't keepyelling at me then I wouldn't
act this way.
And the pathologically kindperson's thinking I don't yell,
I mean, I'm not a yeller, isthis yelling?
Okay, I'll go, I'll startrecording myself, I'll start,

(10:32):
I'll work on it, I'll figure itout, because that pathologically
kind person is just, they'rewilling to give that
narcissistic person such abenefit of the doubt that then
that narcissist gets out ofwhatever their discomfort is by
just a simple phrase,misdirection, turning it back on
them, arguing something else.
And then what happens there isthat narcissist now feels better

(10:54):
and they are out of that momentand they can move on.
And that pathologically kindperson is going to go do the
work to figure out is theretruth in what that person said.
And then, once I show up andsay, okay, I did the work.
In essence, is there truth inwhat that person said, and then
once I show up and say, okay, Idid the work, in essence, now we
should be good.
But then it's another thing andanother thing.
I could keep going.

(11:15):
This is such a yeah, it's such apowerful thing, because I think
the part that I think I'mtrying to say over and over
again Tricia, because I see thisevery day in my practice and
I've even felt it before when Ifelt more insecure about myself
is somebody just had to saysomething Well, I think you're
this and I'm like, oh man, am I?
Okay?
Well, I'll go read all thebooks about that and I'll go
listen to all the podcasts aboutthat.
I don't think that's what I'mdoing or who I am.
I'll spend weeks or months onwhatever it is this person just

(11:37):
threw out at me, and then I'llcome back with the data, the
data.
Oh, I don't think I am, andthey're like I think you still
are like, oh man, what am Imissing?
So then I'll waste time eventrying to figure out if this
person is right, when allthey're doing is is pushing
something back onto me.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Right, well, and they weaponize these communications
and like instead of resolvingconflict or connecting with
empathy, yep, the one partneruses these tactics to deflect,
to blame and, just like you justmentioned, to confuse the other
person, and they even make themfeel like they are the problem.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, and so, and what can I say on that?
Note too that what is sofrustrating about it is that
this is why I talk about theconcept of an attack surface so
often is that the kind person,let's say that they divorce
their narcissistic partner Now,they would love nothing more
than to have a decentrelationship with them because
we have kids together or thosesort of things.
But then any interaction andI'm not a big all or nothing

(12:37):
person, but when the person istruly, truly immature,
narcissistic any interaction isproviding them with an attack
surface, even if you say, hey,I'm so glad we're getting along
well now.
This is one that came up in anoffice this week.
Then the narcissistic partnerwas saying, well, if we can do
it now, we could have done itthen.
So I don't know why you had toblow up the whole family, you
know.
And so then the person felthorrible and they're calling me

(12:59):
for an emergency session, saying, oh my gosh, did I do the wrong
thing?
And it's like man, that personstill has that control over the
kind person.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
So any, it's almost and they weren't even together.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
No, they were, they were, they were together.
They just had a decentco-parenting interaction.
But she had she had been fairlyno contact for quite some time.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Oh, that's what I meant.
So they're divorced?

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Oh, yes, yeah they're divorced, and so what happens,
though, is then she feels better.
Her central nervous system iscalm, she has a better
interaction with her kids.
She's realizing oh my gosh, Ishould have done this so much
sooner, which then now she feelslike oh you know what?
I can see him as a human, andhe's the father of my children,
and so I think I do want to benicer to him.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
But then the second, she interacts and it's, it's
like that narcissistic supply,it's it gives him the fuel Right
.
And I think also, when logicalfallacies become the norm, that
they erode the trust that youhave and they make you question
your own reality, which we'regoing to talk about here in a
minute too, and, and and, overtime you might stop speaking up
altogether, not because, youdon't have a voice, but because
every time you try theconversation gets twisted and

(14:06):
then you get more and moreconfused.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
And then one thing I love that you, the way you put
that.
It reminds me of kind of goingback to the surgery.
The second I woke up, my painin my back and arm was gone, and
what was so wild was and I eventhought about this before I
recorded a video on the wholeprocess I put on my YouTube
channel.
But I even thought about thisbefore I recorded a video on the
whole process I put on myYouTube channel, but I recorded
right before I was going in that, hey, I am constantly feeling

(14:30):
pain here my back, my neck, myarm and I just I thought I am
going to forget what that waslike as soon as it's gone and I
have.
But when I was going throughthat for three or four months, I
could not believe how it wasalways there.
The pain was always in my head,and so if I wasn't trying to be
truly present in a moment, mybrain reverted back to pain.

(14:51):
What if this pain never goesaway?
What should I do about the pain?
Is this what other people feelwith pain?

Speaker 1 (14:55):
And I think that often, when the and it's
overwhelming.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
It is, and that's why I talk about a waste of
emotional calories, truly.
And so when the narcissist usesthese logical fallacies to the
pathologically kind, they stillcontrol the pathologically kind
person, because now they'regoing off and instead of being
present and thinking about youknow the learning Portuguese, or
writing the next great novel,or being present with their kids

(15:19):
, they're thinking how okay, isthere truth in that what they
said?
And they ruminate and theyworry, and then they go back and
they try to have moreinformation and that doesn't go
well, and so they're gonnalisten to a podcast and they're
gonna it.
Just it consumes them and theydon't recognize that those are
all emotional calories beingspent on something other than
what could really help them growor develop a stronger sense of

(15:42):
self.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
Exactly so.
I really appreciate that, and Iknow that recognizing these
fallacies is definitely thefirst step forward in protecting
their emotional clarity and sothey can learn how to stand in
their truth.
Yeah, so I want to break downsome of the things that Bella
mentioned.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
So let's start with the red herring.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
The definition of the red herring.
Do you know what that is?
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Uh, I mean, or it's, it's somebody, just like the red
herring, is this?
It's a?
It's some irrelevant thing, arelevant topic, or it's anything
that will distract you from themain issue, and it's kind of
like a form of misdirection.
And I like that's the term youmay be already know this comes
from the it's.
The red herring is apparently avery strong smelling fish and
it will distract hounds off of atrail when they're hunting,

(16:31):
right.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yes, yes, well, and it's one of the things that I
share with my clients.
So I mean, it's a completelyunrelated topic to distract the
issue at hand and like I'll usean example of if you say it hurt
me when you lied, then theywill respond well, you never
cook dinner anymore.
Totally.
It's like so completely changesthe whole subject and puts you

(16:58):
on the defensive, making it feellike the issue is somehow your
fault now and it's like yeah, Iguess I didn't cook dinner last
week, right, right, and I meanthat's your question.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, and I watch that.
I can picture somebody doingthat on my couch.
And even if the person says,what does that have to do with
it?
Now it's, I just view thenarcissistic or incredibly
emotionally mature person.
They just need that otherperson to to interact in order
to know that they, they knowwhat to do.
Now, once I say that, and oncethe kind person says, what does
that have to do with it?

(17:29):
It's like, really, you have noidea how the correlation fits
between that.
That's wild to me, like I can'teven.
I don't even know if I shouldeven keep talking about this If
you can't put those piecestogether.
I mean, I've seen that happenso often in the couples therapy
setting.
It's right, and so even if theperson becomes differentiated
and they don't say anything, ifthe boundary is when you go off

(17:50):
on, you know, use the redherring tactic, then I don't say
a word.
Then the person is like, well,what do you have to say about
that?
Oh, nothing.
I'm curious about the question,you know.
But then the narcissist?
So, because you know they'reconfabulating in real time,
they're reactive, they gaslight.
Gaslighting is a childhooddefense mechanism, I mean, it's
built into them.

(18:10):
So, then they'll still beat youat that game.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
You know, yeah, oh well, I guess I won't say
anything too.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
You know tit for tat, whatever that looks like.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Exactly, exactly.
Okay, yeah, thank you.
So let's go to the straw manfallacy.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Do you want to take that?

Speaker 1 (18:25):
one Sure, okay.
So the straw man fallacy ismisrepresenting your position,
so it's easier to attack, andsome of the examples I'll use is
I need more communication andthey reply.
So now I'm a horrible partnerwho never says anything, right.
So it's like what?
So it exaggerates, it distortsyour point to make it seem

(18:48):
unreasonable, which derails whatthe real conversation.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, and I find that , like the straw man is in my
four pillars my fourth pillar isleaning in, staying present,
not adopting a victim mindsetthat I find the straw man is
probably one of the most usedtactics of no, you're right, I'm
just a horrible person.
I don't know what I'm doing.
I barely begin to rest all thetime Too often.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
I'll put it that way I mean, sometimes I'll hear my
children even say that and it'slike where did you learn that,
do you?
I mean, I don't feel like I saythat, I don't feel like Jeff is
saying that, but it's likesomehow you just learn some of
these, these tactics, or I don'tknow if they've, I don't know
if it's a human thing, and thenit works.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Well, I think, okay, honestly, the reason I kind of
snorted is, I can think of, Ithink I personally think that
that's one of those where it'sall of the above but where I'm
sure that we all do it.
We just aren't really aware ofit because that's not our
proudest moment.
So it's not like I'mremembering the moments where
I've just been like okay, well,I guess I'll just work more.
I guess you know you guys will.
Yeah, no, it's.
I mean, I know I've done itmany times and maybe not as

(19:52):
grandiose ways, but for sure.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, but the difference is you recognize what
you're doing now.
Well, I don't know if I did inmy 20s or 30s?

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, I think.
I did it plenty.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
And I appreciate that , and so I'm putting this
program together.
And we just went through thefour damaging behaviors that
couples do, and it's gaslighting, manipulating, projecting and
emotional immaturity.
How could I forget that one?

Speaker 2 (20:22):
This is what we're talking about right now
emotional immaturity.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
How could I forget that one?
This is what we're talkingabout right now, and it's just
crazy how, going back throughthose in just detail and in
different ways that you know asa child how you grew up your
defense mechanisms, you knowbeing in a place where your
needs weren't met, so you had todevise a different plan, a
different strategy, and so youknow, and it worked when you're

(20:47):
seven, but now that you're 37,that doesn't, that doesn't work
so well.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
And so now, it's funny to say that it
unfortunately, though, like thisis where somebody will say to
me and they'll say I can't keepdoing this.
But at some point, though, Ihave to bring some gentle
awareness of, well, you can,because you have been, but it's
like, but then, when you try tonot do it, then that
narcissistic person pushesbigger buttons to get you to
react or go back into intoenmeshment, or back into, you

(21:15):
know, alignment or your role.
So.
So that's one of the hardestparts of that point, and the
couples therapy is when somebodysays I can't keep doing this.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
It's like, well, you're telling yourself that
right now, but really you canbecause you have and you have
right, yeah, yeah, very good,okay, so these have been very
helpful and, just like we werejust talking about, these happen
all the time, sometimes evenpeople that don't have these
tendencies.
They do it because they are notaware, and I think this is just

(21:46):
also bringing awareness toeverybody, and I think it's
really important.
So do you know much about, likethe whataboutisms?

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Oh, I do, yeah, I've got it.
So share that, please.
Okay, well, I was going to saythere's a, so that one and I
want to make sure there's.
I shared with Tricia rightbefore we jumped on that I
actually this is okay.
Here's the true confession is,I might even have in my bag, but
I have these logical fallacycards and it was one of the
first things.
I one of these things where Ilooked at them enough on social

(22:17):
media that then every every twoslides or whatever I was
scrolling through was another.
They were these different carddecks, card packs for different
things, and so I bought theseones for logical fallacies and
I've always wanted to createcontent based around these in
really short clips.
So I'm somewhat obsessed withthe logical fallacies and so I

(22:37):
have this document going thatI've always meant to do an
episode on, so I've got a few ofthese where I've already got
some notes.
So I want to just own the factthat it might sound a little bit
rehearsed, because this is someof the things that I've written
out.
The you too, or what about ism,is.
It's a big part of Darvo, whichis the deny attack, reverse the
victim and offender and wherethat's where they flip it back

(22:58):
on you.
Well, you've done things,things too or you're not perfect
either, and so it's just.
It's one of the and all ofthese just reek of emotional
immaturity Cause it's like, well, I just put it back on you, so
now, what are you going to sayabout that?
And uh yeah, totally yeah, andand it just and that's why I
started when we were talkingabout this today with it's.
It's that part of that.

(23:18):
What Ross Rosenberg calls thehuman magnet syndrome is you've
got the pathologically kindperson with the narcissist and
so it darn near, creates abreakup, resistant relationship,
because it's going to take thepathologically kind person to
really step out of the dynamicof the relationship.
But they spend so much timedefending what they need.
Not I was going to shoot onthem, should not be defending,

(23:40):
but they need not be defendingbecause when you really discover
your sense of self and whatboundaries are, again it's not a
.
You need to stop doing that,it's a.
Well, if you're going to go offon a you know off the topic,
then then I'm not going tocontinue the conversation, and
so you.
That's where you have to setboundaries in order to, in
essence, train your emotionallyimmature or narcissistic fill in

(24:01):
the blank partner, kid, entity,boss, statistic.
Fill in the blank partner, kid,entity, boss.
But if you continue to playinto it, then they get that fuel
and it will just continue thiscycle.
And that's part of even whatthe trauma bond is is that
you're still trying to get thisperson to understand, and so
every now and again they'llthrow you a bone and say, okay,
maybe you're right and oh, thatfeels better.

(24:21):
But then they'll also drive youcrazy and send you off trying
to figure out what's wrong withme, and it just keeps you in
that cycle over and over again.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Exactly, exactly.
One of the examples that I liketo use in those is if somebody
were to say I felt dismissedwhen you called or you ignored
my call.
And they may say well, youignored my call last week and so
it's so easy.
And what it does is it avoidsaccountability, which we're just

(24:52):
talking about, by flipping theblame and equalizing the
wrongdoing.
And even if it's not comparablebecause what is happening now
is what's important, not lastweek.
So if there was a situationlast week, he had an opportunity
to share or her what washappening, but if they chose not
to, but again, that's just oneof those.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Okay, I love that you brought that up, because this
is what is fascinating about asmuch as I love my beloved four
pillars that it is interestingbecause when somebody will say,
hey, can I take you on my trainof thought when you said this,
this is how I felt.
I am owning it, that's a mething.
And I'm saying to the otherperson OK, assuming good
intentions can't tell them thewrong questions, stay present.
But then when, like this ispart of that, it's difficult

(25:38):
because there is a realpossibility that you weren't
aware of something that you didand when it was brought up, it
does cause you to think of thatalso happening with your partner
.
So there's just a there's amuch more mature way to handle
that where.
That's why I like having such aframework, because I'm going to
hear my partner a lot.
I want to hear them, I want tohear everything they have to say

(25:59):
about it.
I want them to hand back overthe talking stick when they're
done.
And hand back over the talkingstick when they're done.
And now I even want to spendtime validating Thank you, and I
appreciate you saying that.
And then here's where theownership comes in.
You know when you say that,first of all, thank you, and it
helps me understand yourposition.
Check this out.

(26:20):
It makes me now want to say butyou did too, cause now we can
look at that with curiosity.
You know, this becomes a uhinstead of a me versus you, it's
a us versus a problem conceptand so, but you can see where
that.
That can take a lot ofself-reflection and
introspection to get to thepoint where I can own up to the
fact of like.
Okay, first of all, thank youfor bringing that to my
awareness.
I wasn't aware that must behard.
I'm so sorry that you've beengoing through that, thank you.

(26:41):
You know how can I show updifferent and have to own the
fact that, okay, maybe thatisn't something I can offer, but
I'm glad we're having aconversation.
But then I think one of theways to grow with another human
is to be able to then say okay,look at this.
I'm wanting to say you too.
I'm wanting to say well, I'mwanting to jump in.
Exactly, and I think that can bereally powerful.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
Well, and I think that that's that's really
important, because those arethose tendencies that we all
have, because we want to deflect, we want to, we want to like
hey, you're uncomfortable.
Sitting in that discomfort isnever comfortable.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
And so, what do you want?

Speaker 1 (27:15):
to do.
You want to share thatdiscomfort too, but it's also
the fact that just payingattention to the landscape, the
timing and even though you know,that's what makes us, those
people, more mature in thosesituations, because you're able
to have the discipline to holdoff and listen and validate and

(27:40):
hear what is uncomfortable forus because we screwed up, and
then be able to add maybeanother time even that's what I
always think of Okay, when we'rehaving a situation, I'll think,
oh, I'd love to share what hejust did, and I think, okay,
first of all, it will land flat,because then nothing will get
resolved, and so I will put alittle check mark in my brain

(28:04):
that down the road I'd like tosay, hey, do you remember when
we were having that conversation, when neither one of us felt
attacked or anything like that?
Or you know, there's noconflict, it's just.
I just wanted to share myfeelings about that as well.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, okay, and you're so smart with that too,
because I've even this is wheredifferentiation has come into
play and so I've rewritten andstarted refilming my marriage
course to just like kind of givethat a refresh, because I
started noticing more aboutsometimes I would have a couple
do the most beautifulfour-pillared conversation and
it wouldn't go well.
But then when you're havingeach person try to feel heard,

(28:40):
it's easy for me to say the goalto be heard is to be healed,
and I believe that as anattachment theory therapist.
But then at times then they'rekind of like now what do we do?
And I say well, you didn'targue and you didn't fight, so
over time you will start totrust this process and but
sometimes it's exactly what yousaid, where if somebody is
saying, hey, I need to sharesome really heavy things, and
this is a lot for me to share,and it takes a lot of courage

(29:02):
for me to put this out therethat that isn't always the time
for the other person to saythank you so much.
You know now let me take you onmy train of thought, and you
know so.
So the differentiation piece hasreally helped with.
Okay, I'm going to hear you andmake space for you and provide
that emotional safety for you.
But you're so right it's like,but I'm noticing things come up
in me.
So now that is a.
When you do that, this is a mething.

(29:23):
So I've got a, I've got a.
You know been trying to bebetter with handouts or whatever
.
I've got a thing where you canwrite that stuff down so you can
get back to it.
Cause I find, even in my ownrelationship where we might have
a moment where I'm holdingspace for one of my kids or my
wife and I want to yeah, but, orsay all the things and I think
I'm all mature by by thinking it.
But then I and I'll tell myselfyou know what, a couple of days

(29:44):
from now I'll circle backaround, but a couple of days
from now I forget completelywhat that was, because I think
we're so used to over decades oflife that I'm going to get, I'm
going to get rid of thatbecause it was uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah, oh, that's so good, so good.
Okay, one last one, uh adhominem.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
That was the one I wanted to make sure we got to,
cause this is the yeah.
Cause this is a.
Are you okay if I take that one?
Yes, go ahead.
Cause this is one.
I see, and especially I think,if anybody follows the world of
politics, that it just it drivesme crazy.
Where then it's just somebodywho then just, instead of
dealing with the issue, theythey call the other person names
, they refer like they make funof their stature, they make fun

(30:28):
of their speech, they make funof their dress, they make fun of
their.
You know it's an ad hominemattack.
It's attacking the personinstead of having to deal with
the argument or the information,and so to me, that is so
immature.
And so I recently on my podcastI never deal in the world of
politics, but I just broke downa particular thing and I just
looked at it from the immaturityof it.

(30:49):
And so then, but what'sdifficult about that is, if
somebody likes that, somebodydoes that, then they are also,
in my opinion, somewhat immature.
So then they're not coming tome being curious about hey, is
this immature of me when I, asan adult human being, make fun
of other adult human beings toput them down.

(31:10):
Nobody's saying that if that'swhat they do.
But if you know, so it just.
This is how, where you start tosee that polarity come up in I
don't know, in the nation or inrelationships or that divide
where if somebody thinks it'sokay to do that, then they're
doing it, and then those whoalso think it's okay to do that
are going to say, well, thatperson does it, so it must be
okay, and those who don't thinkit's okay to do that are saying

(31:33):
that's, I can't believesomebody's doing that.
And then they're the ones thatstart getting made fun of.
So it's, it's such a that adhominem one, it's.
I know that that one's one ofmine.
That, I think, is the highestlevels of emotional immaturity.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
I totally agree, and I think it discredits you
personally and it makes you feelinvalid and irrational, like
there is something so wrong withyou, your psycho.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
I think so, but then I'm so I had mentioned.
As soon as we're done, I'mgoing to record an episode of my
own that I'm doing for thevirtual couch that's around this
topic of where, you know, it'sthis German concept of umwelt
which is like basically yourwhole worldview and how we can
all have such a different,different worldview.
No doubt read something andthink how can anybody think that

(32:24):
?
And then you go read thecomments under it and then it's
like, oh wow, people that Ithought didn't think that, think
that, but they must be thinkingthat they can't believe I think
what I'm thinking and and itjust is, I think it's part of
that emotional immaturity is theinability to to sit with the
discomfort that I might notnecessarily be showing up in a
good way in this situationnecessarily be showing up in a

(32:48):
good way in this situation.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well, and I, I really I appreciate this because I've
just been amazed, like workingwith my clients, how often they
name call and that is somethingthat and I know a lot of people
do that and maybe that's justfrom what was modeled in their
home growing up too, but that'ssomething that Jeff and I've
never done.
We have lots of other issues,but that is not one of them.
We've never name called and Ijust I just feel like that when

(33:12):
I hear some of the things thatthey call each other, I just
think, wow, that has got to beso damaging and I I'm just
sometimes just shocked Try notto show the shock on my face
when I hear what they say toeach other, but it's just like,
oh my goodness, no wonderthere's a problem here.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
I'm with you, it's the same, and Wendy and I don't
either.
So that's where I have torealize.
So technically, that's aversion of me projecting what I
think is right onto others, butthat's a hard one when I do
think that's right to not dothis.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
It's so demoralizing when you call each other names.
It's just, you know words, youremember, and you remember how
they're said, you remember theirtone.
They're said in, you remembereverything surrounding that,
because you just cemented thatimage, that voice, that feeling
into your brain and so thosethings come up.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
And so, yeah, feeling into your brain and so those
things come up, and so, yeah,what's funny is I'm with you on
that, but I know that that's youand I interpreting the world
through our lens and thatapparently that is not the case
for everybody, because I watchpeople do this and then there
are times where neither one ofthem act like it's as big of a
deal.
I will never forget, years ago,a couple that happened to be I

(34:26):
knew them well from my churchcommunity.
They were pillars of the churchcommunity.
They reached out needingtherapy.
Of course I will protect all theconfidentiality, but they got
in my office and it was as ifthe minute the door was closed,
I thought I was talking to twosailors in a bar.
I mean, they were both justcursing each other up and down
and I was blown away, and one ofthem looked over at me and just
said sorry, this is probablyreally surprising to you, but

(34:48):
this is how we talk to eachother and I was like, oh, I mean
I will never forget that and itwas wild.
And then both of them had hadpretty chaotic upbringings where
the like, their faith community, had brought them some, some
clarity, some certainty, somevalidation, but they, you know
they would make jokes about theycouldn't take the fight out of
the dog or there's some somephrase like that.

(35:09):
And now they went on to to dowell together, but it was so
wild, so that's I love whatyou're saying I don't even know
what to say about that.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
That's one of the things that I really talk to my
couples, though, is I just feellike there's no place for name
calling.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
I think there's so many and I don't either.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah, I mean, there's so many other ways to
communicate and to share yourthoughts and feelings, but when
you start to literally dismantleyour foundation from sharing
all these terrible things abouteach other, I don't know how in
the world that could be helpfulin any way.
In any way, that's my feeling.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
So these are totally my feelings.
Well, nor do I, which is one ofthe things I love about doing
the couples therapy work is okay.
I can own the fact that that isme projecting what I think is
best for them, but they areliterally coming in saying how
can you help us?
And so at some point I eitherhave to accept the fact that
that is a part of the dynamicfor now and that if I can get

(36:12):
them the right tools, that maybethat'll calm that central
nervous system down, because Iknow that it's not going to all
of a sudden.
I'm not going to start jumpingin there throwing out the swear
words as well, but it was reallyinteresting because they were
able to really embrace tools aswell.
But it was really interestingbecause they were able to really
embrace tools.
But then when you really learnedthat both of them their
backgrounds, the way they grewup, their implicit memory, what
it felt like to be them, theslow residue of their own lived

(36:33):
experience, was, that was a realchallenge.
To meet them as close to wherethey are as I could to help them
get the tools for it to work.
But I had to do a lot of thatself-confrontation and having
this like counter-transferencewhere, okay, they say something
and my, my emotions are startingto get riled.
So I had to check myself andand I would allow myself to
check in with each of them attimes to make sure that you know

(36:55):
and that's where it was so wildto see oh, I'm the only one
getting riled up about that partof the conversation, and it was
really fascinating.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
I think what's interesting is neither one of
them like to be called names, sowith my clients anyway, it was
offensive.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, I was like these guys were okay with that
part.
That's why they were.
Yeah, so it's.
It's blew my mind.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
Yeah, so in with my clients.
They're not okay being callednames.
Neither one of them like it,but they do it just Just they're
flinging mud at each other andjust yeah.
Anyway, Interesting.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Okay, so ad hominem bad.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yep, gaslighting Bad.
I think most people know whatgaslighting is now, but it's
just basically denying yourreality to create confusion.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Good old.
All or nothing.
Black or white thinking isprobably one of the most
well-known cognitive distortions.
If you don't forgive me, thatmeans you never loved me, or
either you stay.
If you stay at work, that meansyou're abandoning me, and it
just reduces these choices toextremes.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Right, right, yeah, that never happened.
You're imagining things.
I never said that.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Right, okay, there's another one too, just a couple.
And I you did a nice job,tricia, of not being distracted.
When I went through my wholebag here I could not find the
cards.
I really thought that they werehere, but just some of them.
I have more on my notes that theappeal to pity, which is always
a fun one All of a sudden andit is that breaking, also
breaking my pillar four of goinginto victim mode.
You know, I only lied because Ididn't want to hurt you, or you

(38:28):
know, I had such a roughchildhood, that's why I act this
way.
So it's deflection and it'swrapped up in a nice wrapper of
guilt and so then it helps thatperson bypass anger and then
they want you now to caretakethem again Because you know it's
like oh man, yeah, it is yourchildhood, you know.
So therefore you can curse atme because, kind of back to the
conversation we were havingbefore, that's what I typically

(38:50):
see is one person that has notgrown up with that dynamic and
one person that has, and it'salmost like because, if you look
at that anxious, avoidantattachment pattern, or this
concept of what, somebody, whothey want to be, that often the
person that maybe grew up intheir home was more like a
library, maybe leans in a littlebit more, wanting that
excitement from the other person, or the person that grew up

(39:10):
with too much chaos sees thepeaceful person as that's who
they want to be.
So then they, in those moments,that are what, what will often
bring couples together andthat's why you have such of that
push and pull.
You know the pursuer withdrawalkind of a dynamic in general.
So what's fascinating aboutthis other one was that it was

(39:31):
truly a.
It was almost fascinating thatboth came together and cause,
you know, one of the poppsychology views is that chaos
meets chaos, but usually it'snot quite that way, you know
it's.
It's usually like you'relooking for something that
you're missing in the otherpartner, and so I think that's
what what I was like alsoprocessing with this other
couple, because they both werejust like a whole whirlwinds of
stuff that you know they gottogether.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
So it's really fascinating, yeah, okay.
So that brings me to thisquestion, tony why do
emotionally immature,narcissistic individuals rely so
heavily on these fallacies?

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Okay and it's, and I it is a good.
It is a good kind of like.
Wrapping it up with that partthat we're just talking about is
, I mean, it's the way that theyknow to connect with another
human.
Which is sad and this is wherewhen I break it down at its most
simple level is that we don'tright out of the womb, we don't
even know that we exist until weare interacting with our mom

(40:23):
and until we're interacting withanother human, we're just that
entity that all of a sudden is.
And then we exist and weinteract with other people and
that's the way we know we stillmatter.
And so then, through thenarcissistic or emotionally
mature person, they don't have atrue sense of self.
They're not trying to figureout really who they are, but
they know who they are inrelationship to another person.
But then, when they interactwith that other person, the way

(40:45):
that they know that they areokay is to take a one-up
position.
Because if they are one-up andsomebody's one down, I mean it
kind of goes back to the I don'twant to say the evolutionary,
biological joke of like, as longas you're faster than that guy,
then you're going to survivebecause the bear will get that
guy.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
So it's to protect their ego.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's where thenarcissistic or immature person
has to find themselves in thatrelationship.
Initially because they have tobe able to, to interact in an
immature way, to take the one-upposition and then, in one-up
even can be victim, I mean, andthat's why these logical
fallacies are so fascinating.
So, basically, when people arelaying out logical fallacies,
it's a, it's a narcissistplaybook, but then the thing
that people often think is thatit's always knowingly done and

(41:30):
and willingly manipulative andnefarious.
And while there are times whereI think it definitely can be, I
believe it's more of the airthat the immature breathes or
the fuel that the narcissist hasalways used for their supply
used for their supply.
And that's why it's so hard forsomebody to overcome a true

(41:50):
personality disorder, because itis their personality, it is who
they are, at their core, theircharacter.
Okay, now that doesn't mean itcan't happen.
But you can see where when Imake jokes about the unicorn, it
has to be a real, certain setof circumstances where they're
going to either lose everythingor they're locked into having to
do certain things for a longperiod of time, but then they
really can't change.
But they have to change attheir very core of what they

(42:12):
think is right or wrong.
So it goes back to that Ifsomebody at their very core
honestly thinks that it's okayto yell at somebody and call
them names, then you or I arenot going to do anything.
They might learn how to nottell us that that is what they
want to do, because that is theway they get out of their
discomfort.
But does it change at theircore where they have this

(42:32):
internal awakening and say thatis, I don't think I want to do
that anymore?
Because even if they're sayingit for a long period of time,
it's like they're still lookingfor the right thing to say, to
get out of that moment or totake that one up position.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
So it's like a true Okay, yeah Well, and I think too
that fallacies create a smokescreen, either to dodge shame,
shift blame or maintain control.
So for many.
It's a learned behavior, justlike you're talking about.
It doesn't excuse it, but itexplains why accountability can

(43:05):
feel so threatening to someonewho hasn't developed the
emotional maturity to someonewho hasn't developed the
emotional maturity.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
So, yeah yeah, it's a false self, because when
somebody truly starts to knowwho they are, then they want to
be more of that and there's lessof a need to manipulate,
control or coerce another person.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Exactly Right, okay.
So how can someone stay calmwhen they realize the
conversation has just beentwisted?

Speaker 2 (43:34):
This is the million-dollar question and I
struggle with this because thepathologically kind person has
been doing it for so long thatthen, when you start to even try
to get them to do all thesesnarches, four points of balance
find them a solid but flexiblesense of self, learning to know
who I am without needing othersto tell me and I don't know if

(43:56):
I've said this on one of ourepisodes before, but I in my
mind I've got this like mathformula 90% solid, 10% flexible
sense of self.
So I need to know I am okay,I'm leaving 10% open to
flexibility.
I want to hear what somebodyelse has to say about me, but
what if 90% of that time I don?
I want to hear what somebodyelse has to say about me.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
But what if 90% of that time you don't really want
to, but I know right?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Well, I think you can get to that if you know who you
are.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Because then at that point it's like oh, I'm open to
it, I was just being funny.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
I know, right, but it's kind of true, right, yeah
for sure.
But once you're like I'm, andI'm going to take ownership of
me.
And so what if 90 percent ofthe time, I'm?

Speaker 1 (44:32):
going to say I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
And if they're like, well, what do you think about it
?
Like, oh, I mean, I'm thinkingabout it, but no, I appreciate
that because we're so used to,that's where we play small or we
, you know, weothe yourself,which I think is takes a
tremendous amount of work.
His third point of balance isthen having a grounded response.

(44:55):
You can see all the work thatgets to that being grounded in
your response, which means notoverreacting, but we often
overlook not playing small aswell.
And then the fourth point ofbalance is oh, I will take
ownership of the things that Ineed to, and I'll even make
effort to change, but those areme things, and so that is a that
is a pursuit right there to getthose to become differentiated.

(45:17):
And so here's why your questionis so good, and I know I want
to get you to that tennis matchas soon as you can.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Oh, you're doing good , okay, but this, this is like I
love the soothe yourself one.
That is really sweet.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
And what I think is so hard about this is that when
one is working on becomingdifferentiated in the
relationship, they're coming outof enmeshment and so the other
partner is going to feelabandoned the narcissistic
partner.
So they're going to say newthings to get that person back
into enmeshment, and evenstarting to talk about things
like I don't even know if I wantto exist, or okay, I'll tell

(45:49):
everybody how bad you are.
So you have to learn that youknow, as you start to become
more differentiated and have astronger sense of self, that
they won't go.
Man, I'm so proud of you.
They'll say, oh, you thinkyou're better than me, or you
know new buttons, and so you thework basically becomes hiding
your buttons and then doing thework you need to do so that you

(46:09):
don't react to the buttons.
But I think the biggestchallenge that I think I've
identified is this we got thebody keeps the score.
So our body's telling us why onearth are you still doing this?
But we've got growth throughdiscomfort, and so I think that
those can feel similar, and soyou're the only one that is
ultimately going to know is thisIf my body is telling me this

(46:31):
is unsafe, then the boundaryneeds to come in.
If you do this, then I need toleave.
If I think that I'm kind ofstuck or I got to figure this
out, then the growth is going tocome from the discomfort.
But then the more I learn tosit with that discomfort, it
will be amped up against me.
And so when?
So I know that was a longanswer when you said how does

(46:52):
someone stay calm in a situationlike that?
Because if the narcissistpushes the buttons, well enough,
then all of a sudden we're intothat amygdala hijack and we
lose access to the wholeprefrontal cortex and we're just
in there.
I think you call it critterbrain, I love that.
And so now we're fight, flight,fawn, freeze, fib, all these
things, all of them.
And so then the person thathappens.

(47:14):
And when that happens, there'snot much you can do about it
other than try to build a timemachine and go back and work on
meditation a couple of years ago.
But it's just such a process togo through, so it's Right, yeah
, so boundary versus growththrough discomfort versus body
keeps the score.
It's a lot.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
So, so good, and I love all that you just shared.
One of the things that I talkabout but you talk about too,
and that is just step one is topause, because you don't have to
respond right away, and thatmoment of pause gives your
prefrontal cortex your CEO.
It will go back online.

(47:51):
If you can just take a stepback and just kind of allow
yourself to assess what's goingon from there, you can remind
yourself I'm not crazy and thisis a tactic, and so I have a
choice.
What do I want to do right now?
When you give yourself a choicethat is keeping that in line,
you're not in critter brainanymore, so it's just pausing,

(48:14):
breathing, take a moment, andthat way you're not going to.
You can then redirect theconversation or disengage in it
completely if needed, andbecause your emotional safety
does come first.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Well, said very well said, because your emotional
safety does come first.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Well, said very well, said no.
I think that what you said wasjust amazing as well.
So what should someone do ifthey recognize these patterns
but the other person refuses totake responsibility?

Speaker 2 (48:42):
And that's great too.
I mean, that's going to happen.
A lot of people are going tolisten to this episode.
They're going to recognize thatOne of the first things that
they're going to want to do istell their partner you know, hey
, they're going to recognizethat one of the first things
that they're going to want to dois tell their partner you know,
hey, I think you're doing thisand that's the and it's hard to
say, not the best idea, Cause Iknow this is where everybody is
going to do things the way thatthey think that they need to do.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
They want to hear it.
They want to hear all thethings that they're doing wrong.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Oh right, and and it's oh gosh, I know.
And that's where my first ruleof narcissist fight club is
don't don't tell the personthey're a narcissist and and I
can't tell you.
I get a lot of emails and I amgrateful for everybody who does.
I can't tell you how many.
I've thought about doing anepisode before where I just
search where the for the.
You know that phrase.
I know you said don't tell thenarcissist they're a narcissist.

(49:24):
But, and I would, I could do awhole episode on all those
emails that I get where they'relike, but whole episode on all
those emails that I get wherethey're like.
But I thought maybe it wasn'tgoing to be that bad and then
you know it made it worse.
So I think one of the firstthings to do is, if this
resonated with you, what we'retalking about today, go listen
to more Q and A files, listen tomore waking up to narcissism,
kind of educate yourself.

(49:45):
And if you can work with atherapist or a coach who who
deals with this type of work,because if you just go to
somebody that doesn't know whatTrisha and I are talking about,
then I think that you're goingto hear a lot of like well, but
you know there's two sides toevery story and what did you do
as well?
And or you know, I think you doneed to talk or coaching as an
individual and it can help youshow up different, which can, in

(50:15):
theory, raise the water in therelationship and then hopefully,
the other person floats andthey don't necessarily sink.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Excellent, thank you.
So one of the things that Ithought of when I just read that
question was, for me, what Iwould be sharing with my clients
is this is where boundariescome in.
So if someone repeatedly usesfallacies to avoid
accountability, you can't havehealthy conflict.
No good point, yeah, and atthat point it's not about

(50:46):
changing them which you'veshared, it's about protecting
you.
So you've got to limitemotional exposure, clarify
expectations as best you can and, just as Tony just shared, seek
outside support.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
And know that that might and this is a problem too,
I think, with thepathologically kind is it's
sometimes they feel like they'redoing the wrong thing or
something bad by going andgetting help and so they often
want to make sure and let theirpartner know.
And but if you're in a trulyemotionally unsafe relationship,
you you may have to to seekthis on your own.
I know, tricia, you've hadpeople that have done that, I

(51:22):
have too where, yeah, they'rekind of doing it on their own
and that's okay.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Well, they're trying to keep their sanity in place.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah, exactly, definitely Okay, and that's okay
Well they're trying to keeptheir sanity in place.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Yeah, exactly, definitely Okay.
So are there early signssomeone might be prone to using
these tactics?

Speaker 2 (51:37):
What a good question.
I think one of the mostdifficult things I see in the
couple's work that I do is theperson.
They feel like this wasn'tanything, it wasn't always
happening until it was.
But then if you go back and dosome kind of life review, it's
been there, it was just right.
The pathologically kind personwas just overlooking more,

(51:58):
giving the person much more of abenefit of the doubt, or all it
took was the person to throw alogical fallacy out there and
then the pathologically kindperson was doing all the work
for it.
So I know that I didn't exactlyanswer the question, but
because it's tough, because it'salready been happening, if
you're noticing it now, Right.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
And so I think about if someone avoids hard
conversations, blames othersconstantly or always needs to
win an argument.
That's a red flag.
And also if they twist yourwords or they make you feel like
you're walking on eggshellswhen expressing needs.
Fallacies have always probablybeen at play.

(52:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
And so the good news is you are understanding it now.
And then, what's the Chineseproverb?
The best time to plant a treewas 20 years ago, and the second
best time is right now.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
Right, Okay, so let's talk about what you can do.
Number one name the tactic,what's happening, Because when
you name it, it loses its power.
So you name what it is and thatfeels like a distraction from
what you brought up, and so themore that you can help them well

(53:15):
, it's not helping themunderstand what's happening,
because they know what they'redoing I really feel like.
I feel like they may not knowall these terms and tools and
things like that, but they knowwhat's been working for them and
I really feel like that.
That's just whether it's beenwhat they've been taught.
It's what works for them.
They get what they want, but,just like I said, by pulling out

(53:40):
naming that term, that can bevery, very powerful.
And then pause and reflect, takea step back, get your CEO back
online and breathe.
The more that you can focus onwhat's going on, the more
control you can have in yourlife, instead of just getting

(54:01):
lost in all these things thatare happening around you.
And then take a moment beforeengaging and ask yourself is
this about what I was originallyeven trying to say?
And so, going back to theoriginal question, or you know
how you're expressing yourself.
We started with A and we endedwith Z.

(54:23):
I want to go back to A, solet's get back to that original
question and then refocus.
And I love the thing that Tonyjust shared and that is to
self-soothe.
So often we don't even knowwhat that means, but this is
helping you because the morethat you can kind of go
internally he talks about justexpending a lot of emotional

(54:45):
calories this is going to bringthat energy back to center and
that's where you want to keepthat.
You know that energy.
And then as you go throughthese things it's document,
journal, those things are reallyhelpful to keep a record and
validate your experience,Because so often when you can
kind of read through what youwrote earlier and then at the

(55:08):
moment you think, okay, I mustbe crazy.
But then if you read it againand you see these patterns, then
you can go, wow, Okay, Wait asecond, I'm not crazy and that's
going to be really important.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Yeah, I love that you said that, because I've worked
with so many people that theyhave been told oh, you're
scorekeeping, or I can't believeyou, you're writing this down.
Or their, their own fear willsay well, I'm worried somebody
might read this.
Or you know, there's a lot ofyeah buts that come with
journaling or jotting thesethings down, but it becomes so
helpful, and so when I takenotes in therapy, it's

(55:41):
inevitable that the person willcome in and say, maybe I'll say
how's the week, and they'll say,oh, it was pretty bad.
This, this and this happened.
And pretty bad this, this andthis happened.
And I'll start talking about,okay, let's look at what's
really at play.
And they'll say, I mean, no, Imean, but it wasn't, it wasn't
horrible.
And then I'm a big fan of humorand I'm saying, okay, so, other
than the fact that they saidall of these hurtful things, it
wasn't so bad.
You know, and this is where Ioften like to say, the absence

(56:03):
of bad does not equal good.
It doesn't mean that things aregood, it just means that maybe
it was less worse this week.
And so when you can go back andread things.
But then I think, yeah, one ofthe hard things is when somebody
reads journals, they feel badand we can.
Maybe we can do a follow-upepisode on.
Let's talk about what to dowith our emotions, because our
emotions are there to guide us,but when they are uncomfortable

(56:25):
or big emotions, we often wantto just stuff them down because
we might have to do somethingabout them.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Right, and I'd love to do an episode in the future
about how, when your nervoussystem is struggling, that it's
felt in the body first and thenit goes to the brain, because I
think a lot of times that's amisconception.
A lot of people think thattheir thoughts are controlling
what's happening in their body,and it's actually the opposite.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
So we can talk about that later.
So today we learned thatlogical fallacies aren't just
abstract concepts.
They show up in real liferelationships in ways that are
painful and confusing.
They distort truth, they shutdown vulnerability and they keep
real connection just out ofreach.
But once you see them, namethem and respond with intention,

(57:14):
you start reclaiming youremotional safety and power.
So, Tony, do you have any lastminute thoughts?

Speaker 2 (57:21):
This was just.
This was I always want to say.
This was so much fun to talkabout the ways people were
emotionally manipulated, but Ijust I appreciate the question
and I appreciate the opportunitythat we got to be a little more
organic and both of us talkingabout the experiences that we
see in the office, because Iknow that every time I put out
an episode like this or that youdo, or we put one of these out,

(57:42):
it's going to reach people,that it's going to make them
feel some things and that it'sokay.
Yeah, and well, and you alreadyeven feel uncomfortable because
it's hard to self-confirm, right?
Because that means, once I knowit's hard to well, you can't
unknow anymore.
And then but that's part ofthat emotional maturity is
allowing yourself to feel andthink.
And once you know, once it's inyour head, you'll start to

(58:07):
notice more.
And then at some point Ipromise, as uncomfortable as
this might be, you're on a roadwhere you will at some point
feel better about yourself andthe situation that you will be
in.
But there's some uncomfortablethings that might come.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
And what does comfort do?

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Discomfort is where we grow and that builds our
emotional maturity.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Absolutely Perfect.
That was beautiful.
Well, we're absolutely lovingyour questions we've been
receiving and, bella, thank youagain for yours.
It wasn't just brave, it was sopowerful and I know you're
going to help so many othersfeel seen.
So we just really appreciateyou taking the time to send in
your question, and I know thereare more of you holding

(58:48):
questions in your heart.
You've told me in groups andsessions and messages, so here's
your invitation Please sendyour questions in, email us at
fyshajamesoncoaching at gmailcomand we may be featuring your
question in an upcoming episode.
If this episode brought youclarity, please share it.
Share it with a friend, asibling, a neighbor, someone who

(59:09):
needs it, and then hitsubscribe and leave us a review.
That's how this community growsand we're so grateful you're
part of it.
And if you're in a relationshipthat feels broken or beyond
repair, I want to remind you ofsomething there's still hope.
My eight-month Healing Heartsprogram is designed for couples
who feel lost but are stillholding onto a thread of hope.

(59:32):
It's a guided journey back tosafety, connection and trust,
with the tools, support andstructure you've been missing.
So please reach out to medirectly at Trisha Jamieson
coaching at gmailcom, becauseyou don't have to do this alone.
We'll see you next time on theQ&A files.
Until then, stay grounded, staykind and keep asking the

(59:52):
questions that matter.
Goodbye everybody.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
Thanks everybody.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to
share today's gems of wisdomwith you.
Your questions light up ourshow, fueling the engaging
dialogues that make ourcommunity extra special.
Keep sending your questions totrishajamesoncoaching at
gmailcom.
Your curiosity is our compass.
Please hit subscribe, spreadthe word and let's grow the
circle of insight and communitytogether.

(01:00:18):
I'm Trisha Jameson, signing off.
Stay curious, keep thriving andkeep smiling, and I'll catch
you on the next episode.