Discovering hidden pornography use in your marriage can feel like having the ground ripped from beneath your feet. The questions haunt you: Was it all a lie? Am I not enough? How could I have missed this? In this raw, courageous exploration of betrayal trauma, we address a heartbreaking letter from Paula, who recently discovered her husband's secret pornography use after eight years of marriage.
The emotional devastation of betrayal trauma runs deep, but healing begins with understanding an essential truth—this isn't about you. Dr. Jeff Jamison, Tony Overbay and I unpack why partners often internalize betrayal, questioning their own worth when confronting a partner struggling with pornography. We examine how early exposure (in this case, at age 10) creates neurological pathways that can lead to lifelong struggles with intimacy and authentic connection.
When trust shatters, the body responds as if under attack. We offer practical techniques for nervous system regulation—box breathing, self body scanning, and sensory grounding—while acknowledging the messy reality that healing isn't linear. The question "was our entire relationship a lie?" reveals the painful complexity survivors face as they sort through what was real and what wasn't.
One of the most liberating perspectives we share is that rebuilding trust isn't the betrayed partner's responsibility. The person who broke trust must demonstrate consistent, transparent behavior over time. This shifts the burden off the wounded partner and places it where it belongs—on the person doing the healing work.
Whether you've experienced betrayal or are struggling with pornography use yourself, this conversation offers compassionate insight without judgment. Next week, we'll explore the husband's perspective with equal depth and care. Remember, while pornography addiction damages relationships, it doesn't determine your worth or destiny. Healing is possible, even if the path forward feels impossible to imagine right now.
Have a question? Trouble in your marriage? Contact Trisha directly at trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com.
Be sure and catch Tony on his podcasts, The Virtual Couch and Waking up to Narcissism.
Leave us a comment! We love to hear your comments!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Trisha Jamison (00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the
ultimate health and wellnessplayground.
I'm your host, Trisha Jamison,a board-certified functional
nutritionist and lifestylepractitioner, ready to lead you
through a world of healthdiscoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry ofdisease prevention to nutrition
, exercise, mental health andbuilding strong relationships,
all spiced with diverseperspectives.
(00:29):
It's not just a podcast, it's acelebration of health, packed
with insights and a twist of fun.
Welcome aboard the Q&A Files,where your questions ignite our
vibrant discussions and lead toa brighter you.
Welcome, Wellness Warriors, toanother episode of the Q&A Files
.
I am Trisha Jamison, afunctional nutritionist and
lifestyle practitioner and alife coach, and your host today,
(00:52):
and I'm here with two amazinghumans Dr Jeff Jamison, a
board-certified family physician, and Tony Overbay, a licensed
marriage and family therapist.
Always so grateful for yourwisdom and honesty, and thank
you so much, both of you, forbeing here today.
Tony Overbay (01:06):
Hey, good to see you, happy to be here.
Trisha Jamison (01:07):
Yeah.
So before we dive in, let'sstart with what, tony, because I
know you have so many.
Tony Overbay (01:15):
Celebrations.
But, man, I'm going to be sokind and let one of you guys go
first.
Trisha Jamison (01:20):
Okay, jeff, I'm going to be so fine, I'm going
to let you go first.
Jeff Jamison (01:25):
Oh, Tony, thank you so much for letting that.
I'm just so grateful for Tonygetting me this opportunity.
Trisha Jamison (01:32):
Is that what we're doing?
He?
Jeff Jamison (01:36):
loves Tony.
Okay, so this last week ourdaughter Alyssa was able to be
here at our house with her kidsand we just had a wonderful time
with them and they were fun andoh busy.
You know they are busy kids,but they're wonderful.
Took three of them flying oneof the days and so we just flew
(01:58):
around the area and looked atthings and they were amazed and
you know all of those wonderfulchildhood things of being up in
the airplane and be able to seewhere you're going is pretty
cool.
So my gratitude has to do withgrandchildren, my daughter, our
daughter Alyssa, and flying.
Trisha Jamison (02:16):
Beautiful, perfect, tony.
Tony Overbay (02:19):
Okay, I really did have one today and it was what
we were talking to before we hitrecord.
And it's just the the, themiracle of modern medicine.
And I, since we last recorded,I got my what I've been calling
my new headshots, that are myx-rays, that have the hardware
in my neck, and it is wild, itis so crazy to think I have this
titanium plate and screws andcages and spacers, and my
(02:40):
vertebrae and my pain is gone,and to think that in the end of
December, I knew nothing wasbrewing underneath the surface.
And here we are in April, andit's wild.
I think about the therapy toolsthat I like to preach and
acceptance, and it just is, andthat happened.
And then, boy, though, whenthat happens to you, I never
(03:02):
anticipated being someone thatis walking around that has
titanium plate and screws intheir vertebrae and then is okay
, and I've been thinking so muchabout when I am healed, the
choices I get to make, movingforward of.
Do I try to keep hammering awayat the things, the person I was
, exercise wise and thingsbefore, or, but I think I'm
(03:25):
going to it's time to become aYogi and a Pilates guru, and
maybe not an ultra marathonrunner, and embrace all the
things that I don't even knowabout.
So I I've just had this mindshift over the last week of of
okay here, here we are next.
Next adventure with screws andplates in my neck.
Trisha Jamison (03:40):
I really appreciate that because probably
about a year and a half ago Ireally had to change my exercise
regimen from doing insanity,crazy workouts to not so much.
I walk a lot.
I do a lot of other thingsbecause I want to protect my
(04:01):
body and before it was like Iwas invincible, I could do
anything yes and so I appreciatethat mindset because just
thinking you're, you know, themore you work out, the better
you're gonna feel, and actuallyI feel like that's not true
anymore.
I've been able to enjoy so muchmore because I'm not so crazy
anymore.
Tony Overbay (04:20):
Still crazy but I love it.
I, yeah, right.
And then normally when werecorded these, I've tried to
have already had a whatever a 10mile run or whatever it's in,
and today I had a nice three anda half mile walk listening to
an audio book.
Isn't it fun?
Yeah, yes.
Trisha Jamison (04:39):
It was.
It was nice.
I took two of our grandkids,the four that were here this
week.
I took two of them, our10-year-old and 6-year-old, and
drove them.
Well, almost 11 hours, notmiles.
Tony Overbay (04:54):
I wish it was 11 miles.
Trisha Jamison (04:55):
Our 10-year-old wished it was 11 miles because
she kind of got sick on the wayhome and we went to Utah for a
week.
And we went to Utah for a weekand so our daughter, our third
daughter, michaela.
She has three children and theyhave a six-year-old and I took
a six-year-old and they're likebest buddies, so they've grown
(05:16):
up together.
They have missed each other somuch and so I took him and then
I took Lily, our 10-year-old, aswell, so she could help him,
because you know he likes tosleep with his sister and so
that was really helpful.
But they were amazing, theywere absolutely amazing.
(05:38):
We had so much fun.
And then, when we came home,our second daughter, alyssa, was
here with the other two and wejust enjoyed them with all four
kids and we just had a greattime.
So, had so much fun in Utah andbest grandma of the year award
goes to Right, but I got tospend time with our other
(05:59):
daughter, capri and her husband,colin, and Chase and Desireee,
and got to see their little baby, owen, and Owen was born on
Christmas Day and Michaela,their youngest, was born just
the day before Thanksgiving.
So we've got some sweet littlebabies that we get to enjoy, and
I was really, really missingthem, so it was so great to
spend some time there.
(06:20):
So that's my celebration andthank you so much for sharing
your celebrations.
Those are all awesome.
Now, today we're diving into adeeply emotional and complex
topic pornography andrelationships.
So over time we've had severalquestions come in on this topic,
(06:41):
but today I want to highlighttwo in particular in on this
topic.
But today I want to highlighttwo in particular, and one of
these questions came in a littlewhile ago and the second one
just came in this week, andthey're from two different
people, so two different stories, but they both center on the
same struggle how pornographyimpacts trust, intimacy and
(07:01):
emotional safety.
And what makes this so powerfulis that we get to look at it
from both a wife and a husband'sperspective.
They are not a married couple,but they are both speaking to
the pain and confusion that thisissue brings just from opposite
sides of the experience.
So I'm really glad we're ableto talk about this topic We'll
(07:24):
focus on one today, one questiontoday and one next week and I
think it offers a fuller pictureof the hurt, the hope and the
healing that's possible.
This is such a sensitive topicand I honestly don't know where
to start.
My husband and I have beenmarried for about eight years.
(07:48):
We have two young children,ages three and six.
I always thought we had a goodmarriage.
He had shared with me a longtime ago that he was first
exposed to pornography aroundthe age of 10 through a friend's
older brother.
Over the years he's mentionedjust on occasion that he might
be struggling again, but healways reassured me he was
(08:09):
keeping it in check and he washandling it.
So I had absolutely no ideaanything more serious was going
on.
But recently I found images onhis phone and that opened a door
I never wanted to walk through.
What I discovered wasoverwhelming websites, explicit
conversations and a hiddenPayPal account.
It turns out he's been payingfor things, for services and
(08:31):
things I didn't even knowexisted.
He's been living a second lifeand I only found out because I
stumbled upon it.
The part that wrecks me is thathe didn't come clean.
I had to find out myself isthat he didn't come clean.
I had to find out myself, andthat is so painful.
I've always tried to take careof myself.
I work out, I try to lookattractive and I genuinely
(08:52):
believed we had a strongconnection.
So I can't help but ask why fakewomen?
Why choose that over me?
Was our entire relationshipbased on lies?
Is this about me not beingenough, or is this about
something deeper inside of himthat I'll never be able to
understand?
I feel sick to my stomach, I'mfurious, but at the same time I
(09:16):
feel completely numb.
Most days I don't even knowwhat day it is.
I am overwhelmed and lost.
How do I even begin to recoverfrom this?
I'm struggling just to takecare of myself.
I don't know how to rebuildtrust or if I even want to.
And the hardest part, I stillhave to show up for my kids,
even when I feel like I'mfalling apart inside.
(09:36):
Can you please help me?
So, first of all, there's somuch pain in Paula's story
Betrayal, confusion, numbnessand that deep ache of not
knowing what's real anymore.
And what stood out to me themost was her question.
Why fake women?
Why choose that over me?
(09:58):
And, even more painfully, wasour entire relationship based on
lies.
So I've actually seen this manytimes.
When betrayal is uncovered andthere's this almost immediate
collapse into shame, she startsscanning her body, her behavior,
her worth.
It's like she's trying toretroactively figure out where
she failed, when really thisisn't about her failure at all.
(10:22):
So, tony, I want to start withyou.
You've walked alongside manywomen in this exact emotional
space.
Why is it that when betrayallike this happens, so many women
internalize it and begin toquestion their own worth?
And how can someone like Paulabegin to separate her value from
(10:46):
her partner's choices?
Tony Overbay (10:48):
This is such a good question.
I want to ask Trisha, tell meif this would be okay.
I want to just say, can youeither put her question in our
chat of Zoom or even text me,because I would love to almost
break it down.
This is so amazing and I'mgrateful for Paula for asking
this, and I want, of course, Idon't want to hog the show, but,
man, this is the world I workin every day and from both the
(11:11):
men and the women, anddefinitely not trying to plug my
book, but I've got a bookcalled he's a Porn Addict.
Now what An Expert and a FormerAddict Answer your Questions,
and it's a co-author with a guynamed Josh Shea and then we both
had eight chapters of questionslike these that then I answered
from.
I played the role of the expert, he played the role of the
addict, and we didn't know whateach other was going to say, and
(11:32):
then we just put them alltogether for the book and it's
just really fascinating, becauseI'm trying to shed light on my
view of working with a lot ofmen and women and then he was
saying, okay, here's where hewas at, and I just think it's so
interesting to her question is.
So there's so many layers here.
It's so deep, it is, it is andit's so good too, and I'm
grateful.
Yeah, we need to break thisdown in as many episodes as we
(11:55):
need to.
I think this could be reallypowerful and helpful, because
I'll just start.
I'll start addressing it whileyou're doing that too, Trisha.
But why does somebody, why doesPaula initially make it about
her?
And that is because she's ahuman and that's what we do.
And I've been thinking a lotabout this the last couple of
weeks.
I did a couples training fromthis amazing couples therapist
(12:15):
named Terry Real, and he hasthis concept where he talks
about what was adaptive.
That we did as a child ismaladaptive as an adult, and so
the adaptive part of our childis what has protected us as a
kid.
And I go back to this One ofthe first things that we do is
you know from the beginning, ifwe express our emotions, if we
do anything like that, ourparent will meet our needs.
I'm talking early.
(12:35):
We cry, we get fed, we you know, if we say we need something,
our parent will come to a rescue.
But then, the older we get,even the more expressive we get.
Our parents are busy in theirown lives and people are doing
their own things, and so we'restill just wired to think, okay,
why are people not making mefeel better?
And so then it must be me.
I mean, here's our core elementof shame that it's not just
(12:57):
that I am unworthy, I'munlovable because now I'm
expressing something and thisperson did it to me.
So it's one of those thingsthat we just kind of it's in our
programming and there's also aconcept of that.
And so that was adaptive as akid, because how would we know
any better?
We're egocentric as a kid.
Everything is happening to us.
It is we only know of our world, and so that was how we had to
(13:20):
adapt and survive as a kid,trying to make sense of things.
But then as an adult, now thatbecomes maladaptive, because
it's still just our immediatereaction is how could they do
this to me?
But then also part of that is Ineed to make sense of it and
that I can fix it.
If I can make it about me, Ican do something about it.
But in reality this is more,and I love what part of her
question is.
It's not necessarily about her.
(13:41):
I mean, it's a him issue andit's something that he is
struggling with, that he doesn'tknow how to communicate well,
that he is living the dual life,and so it isn't about her.
Jeff Jamison (13:51):
But, man, that is a hard concept to to believe,
right, and I'll pause because Idon't want to just keep going
but it just seems like there'sso much pain yeah, that happens
from that that it's it's hardfor her not to take it upon
herself, and I think one of thecore things that happen with
(14:12):
women anyway is that at theircore, they're comparative.
Yes, totally they compare, youknow, does my hair look as good
as so-and-so's hair?
And I think sometimes womenlook at women more than guys
look at women.
Trisha Jamison (14:28):
I agree with that Not in the same way Agreed.
Jeff Jamison (14:33):
But the thing that happens, I think, is that women
take the problem of pornographyand internalize it as that they
are comparing with the quotefake women, unquote on the
screen or on the page, andthey're trying to be somehow
able to compete with them.
And it's an impossible task andthey know it, but it still is
(14:57):
painful.
And I'm not sure how, tony may,you've got a lot more
understanding of this, of how tohelp women understand what's
going on within themselves sothat they can walk through this.
Tony Overbay (15:11):
So and I like well , I like what you're saying
there too, and this is funny.
I just wrote I watch me quotemyself.
How egotistical is that.
But I literally just waswriting about this yesterday,
about comparison in general.
So I was just right and I saidwe're all.
We're also hardwired with afundamental need for social
connection, to belong to a group, a tribe of people.
So I just said, in ourevolutionary past, being
separated from your group oryour tribe didn't just mean
(15:32):
you'd miss out on the latestmeme or out of the loop.
It meant that you were exposedto all the elements, including
predators, and you could die.
So how does your brain protectyou from being left out?
By running a continuous socialcomparison program?
Am I meeting a groupexpectation?
Am I wearing anything that willget me teased?
Am I at least better thanskinnier than, smarter than
funnier than, or a million otherthan's, the other people in my
tribe?
Have I said anything that willmake people think less of me?
(15:53):
Are my contributions valued?
Who, then, am I?
I need somebody to tell me whatI need to do.
And then and I just said, thankyou, social media.
But now I'm even comparingmyself to a version of me that I
think I need to be, or elseI've somehow even let myself
down.
So it's just that's exhausting.
So I think that's the constantprogramming that's going on in
our, in our minds, that's likethere for in our DNA.
So so much of this, I think, isjust it's visceral, it's
(16:14):
reactionary, so, and it has tocome to this boiling point
before you even are aware of it.
And then, immediately, that'swhere we go to the what is wrong
with me?
What can I do to fix this?
Why would he do this to me?
So I just, I just I hope thatI'm laying that case out enough
that how normal it is, but howjust reactionary it is.
And and again, our reactionsare part of that childhood
programming that I need to reactin order to get somebody to pay
(16:36):
attention to me and ultimatelyto make me feel better, and so
it's just so normal.
Trisha Jamison (16:41):
Right, and I think this is such a big problem
in our world and I think thatone of the unfortunate things,
we don't talk about it becauseit's so shamed, yeah, and it's
embarrassing and it's awful.
I mean on both spectrums, and Iappreciate, just as I've worked
(17:03):
with couples as well, howembarrassing and shaming it is
for the husband because he getson the shame train and how
devastating it is for the wife,yeah, because it's like and
we're going to talk all aboutthese different things.
So I'm just going to, we'regoing to break them down, but,
(17:25):
yes, I mean, it's just such adevastating piece of information
because you thought you knewyour spouse and to have this
exposed it's like what, whatwent wrong?
And just like you talked abouttony, they internalize it.
It's if they can find out thatthere's something wrong with
them then, they can change thatthing.
(17:46):
It's so hard to help womenunderstand that it has nothing
to do with them.
But how can you tell a womanwhen he's looking at all these
pictures and explicit thingsthat it has nothing to do with
them?
It's such a hard concept towrap their head around.
Tony Overbay (18:04):
Yeah.
And also that I still want tosay from like, we all three have
different perspectives.
I love mine is still thatnothing went wrong.
It was happening, it just is.
Now it has been brought tolight and now what do we do
about it really?
But then that is hard to.
I can't even imagine being herin that position, because then
she again, we want to make senseof things so bad.
(18:24):
We have this desperate need forto make sense and certainty and
we just think, if I can get allthe questions answered, if I
can make it make sense to me,then I'll feel better.
So that's even the part whereand I don't know if we want to
go down this path but even now,let's say, when she finds out
she goes and confronts herhusband.
This is where I've said, youknow, this is always hindsight,
(18:45):
it is.
But you want to say can youpause right there and find
someone that you can work withand an expert that you can work
with?
Because here comes the why didyou do this?
And now he's caught off guard,he feels shame.
And now here comes the, thebeloved staggered disclosure,
where now he doesn't even wantto think that he could have done
the things, that that he did soand he doesn't want to hurt her
.
He has the shame going.
(19:05):
So now let me just staggeredsome information, and and I just
I can't stress this enoughYou've got to her, which I know
it makes so much sense whereshe's saying I just need to know
, I need all the answers, and ifI can get the answers I'll feel
better and then it'll makesense to me.
He doesn't, honestly, even knowcompletely why he's done the
things he's done, and he'scertainly tried to bury those
(19:25):
with shame.
And so then, because of theshame, and so now he's going to
just give her a little bit, alittle bit, a little bit, which
is not going to make sense toher.
Trisha Jamison (19:33):
There's no way.
Tony Overbay (19:34):
It's not enough and it's not so she'll keep
saying more and that'll get himto say more.
And now here comes the pattern,the staggered disclosure that
if I just stay on this, thenhe'll say things, and he might
even say things that he doesn'teven believe himself.
Just trying to get her to feelbetter and him to.
Trisha Jamison (19:48):
It's such a pattern, and one of the things
that I tell my clients is youthink you want to know all the
information, but I, I assurethem that they don't, because
then your mind just spins andyou just think of all of these
crazy images.
That is never helpful, but theydon't understand that, they
(20:10):
can't appreciate, they're likeno, I want to know all of it.
I, I want him to be honest, Iwant him to disclose it all to
me, because then he's being openand vulnerable and yeah, so I,
I like to hear that a lotsometimes patients come to me
and they say you, they have thisproblem, whatever the problem
(20:31):
is, and it has happened to them.
Jeff Jamison (20:34):
And what they want to know is why did it happen to
them?
And the why question is almostnever answerable.
And when you say, well, if it'san easy one, like you fell down
and you broke your arm, that'swhy.
If it's an easy one like youfell down and you broke your arm
, that's why.
But the reason that they'retrying to know why is not
(20:55):
because they really want tounderstand the process, it's
because they want to get infront of it so that it doesn't
happen again or that they canfix it.
And that's the whole thing withpornography, I think, is that
you know, a person that isconfronted with the use or abuse
of pornography by their partnerhas a whole bunch of feelings
(21:18):
and they want to get to thebottom of it so they can stop it
from ever happening again.
And they think that goingthrough all that will somehow
reveal the answer, which isnever true.
Tony Overbay (21:29):
It's funny when you bring that up too, even just
like this, this neck surgery Ihad, I would love to.
I mean, I've had people say itmust be because of the running
and then, but my spinal surgeonsaid not necessarily that could
have even made it, helped.
You hang in there better, youknow, and I still, I still want
to know.
And then, and I think aboutthis as 20 year longitudinal
study on knees at a study atStanford, it shows that the more
(21:51):
you run, the better the bloodflow, the healthier you are.
But it's the running on thepitch or the camber of the road
or not swapping out your shoes,enough.
But we just want to.
We want to say no, it's becauseof this pornography, it's
because I'm not enough, it'sbecause you know, I don't work
out enough.
Jeff Jamison (22:09):
It's because and, but at some point attractive
enough.
Yeah, exactly, work out enough.
It's because, but at some pointMore attractive enough.
Tony Overbay (22:12):
Yeah, exactly All the this or that, yeah.
And so, even like with my neck,one of my friends reached out
and he said I just want you toknow, I don't think it's because
you're running.
And I had said, hey, you knowwhat?
I appreciate that, whatever itis, here we are, what do we do,
moving forward?
I know I'm not trying tocompare my spinal surgery with
the woman's feeling of betrayalI promise I'm not trying to do
(22:35):
that.
But I just love what you'resaying there, dr Jeff, and you
too, Trisha.
We do want to make sense of it,because our brain says if I can
make sense of it, my discomfortwill be gone, it'll never
happen again and we can move onand all is well.
And that isn't the way it works, unfortunately.
Trisha Jamison (22:45):
Excellent.
So I just want to give ourlisteners a couple key things
that they can do, and then wecan talk about these things.
And I think when I startworking with women in these
situations, I want them to focuson grounding themselves in
truth.
And what does that truth looklike?
And there's three things that Ifocus on.
(23:06):
One is name the emotion.
I feel betrayed, I feel angry,I feel numb.
Help them recognize how they'refeeling.
Two is affirm the reality.
They didn't cause this.
This is not because they're notenough.
This is not because they didsomething wrong and because,
(23:26):
just like you said, I thinkwomen have a propensity to take
the blame.
That's just kind of our natureoftentimes, and so it's an easy
thing to do.
But we have to anchor theirworth, and it's I am still
enough.
And that is number three.
So the more that you can focuson those three things name the
(23:48):
emotion, affirm your reality andanchor your worth that is going
to help ground you, so you canfocus on what's real, because
right now you're living in aworld of all these different
pieces don't make sense and it'sjust.
It's a real confusing place tobe.
Jeff Jamison (24:09):
And that can happen from any kind of trauma.
I mean it isn't justpornography trauma.
It can happen from any kind ofbetrayal trauma.
No matter how you're betrayed,you can feel that your whole
world is rocked, your whole ideaof what's true and what's not
true, and so all of those thingshappen in any of those.
(24:31):
So it applies at a ground levelfor all of that.
The other thing I wanted topoint out real quickly is that
pornography is pervasive in oursociety.
At this point you can get youknow it'd take you two seconds
to find pornography on theinternet if you wanted to find
it.
And so, if you're alive, you'veeither been exposed to or
(24:53):
you've used, in one form oranother, pornography, and so and
this goes for men and women Ithink that it's.
What is it, tony?
The statistics are like twothirds of men and one third of
all women become over users ofpornography as they get.
What's that stats?
Tony Overbay (25:13):
on.
I mean that it's all over theplace because so many people
don't disclose.
And then even within this andthis is what I think is part of
what even paula's questionsabout is that people will then
define it however they want,where people just say, okay, no,
I don't have a problem with it,and it can even be because it's
been since yesterday, and and Ibelieve that then the people
that are overcoming it.
(25:34):
In their mind, it's like everytime is the last time, and I'm
not saying that to be funny oranything, because I believe that
people genuinely believe thatno, I won't do it ever again,
because that helps themalleviate their own discomfort,
and they have to tell themselvesthat to make sense of things.
And then it's like they'll havea shelf life.
It could even be a couple ofdays a week where they're like,
no, I'm good until I'm not again.
(25:55):
Because I think one of thebiggest challenges is that what
do we do to get rid of ourdiscomfort?
A lot of times we will tellourselves no, I honestly, this
is it.
I know more and we feelresolute and we're going to do
it.
But the big difference is, whatdo I do when I wake up the next
day.
Do I start a meditation program?
Do I start doubling down on myspiritual practice?
Do I join a group?
Do I take a course?
(26:15):
Do I meet with the expert?
And usually we won't, becausethe very story we tell ourselves
is that, no, this is the lasttime.
Discomfort alleviated, wake upthe next day I feel good, and so
then I will never do it again.
Until I do so, yeah, right.
Trisha Jamison (26:30):
And next week we're going to talk about the
husband's perspective, so I wantto be able to focus on that,
because you have so much tooffer there, and so I don't want
to take it away.
Tony Overbay (26:44):
Well, let me go back into what Paul had said.
Let me ask you a question first.
I'll hang on a second.
So what I want to ask you, tony, is how do you help women who
feel invisible or replaced by afantasy world, and how do you
help them start claiming theirown voice and identity?
(27:06):
Therapist, who has some skillsin this area, because the fact
that, though, if the woman feelslike she has no voice, is
already prevalent if she'strying to find her voice, and so
then in that scenario, it'smost likely to have been in a
dynamic where, even if shestarts to express her voice, the
husband is very skilled in youknow, okay, no, you're right,
(27:28):
I'm a horrible person, or well,you look, I said I'm not going
to do it anymore.
There's a variety of buttonsthat can be pushed that get her
to then go back into this, theone down position.
So I think that she does needhelp, because she's probably
already been through this rodeoa few times of trying to express
herself about something thatshe really now has had enough of
or doesn't understand.
(27:48):
But he's also good atalleviating his shame, his
discomfort, his discomfort, andthen it just falls down into the
similar dynamics.
So I usually will get somebodycoming into my office that they
finally just say I don't, Idon't know what else to do, and
sometimes it is the very I can'tdo this anymore card that will
get him to finally say, okay,fine, like I 'll go to see
(28:08):
somebody.
So that's the part I just wantto normalize.
Is that the fact that shedoesn't have a voice and wants
to express it and something likethis has happened.
I would imagine it's not thefirst time where maybe something
like this has happened, but thefact and I and this is what I
like about our group wheresometimes I know, at least when
I'm doing the group call withwomen, by the time they get to
that call and they say how can Ido something, even though he
(28:32):
doesn't want to participate, andthen I've been framing this
okay.
So you got to the point whereyou were so frustrated that you
started looking for resourcesand you found a podcast and you
reached out to somebody there toget led into this private group
, to then be on a call everyother week to then ask the
question All of that I call themleading indicators that you
need additional help.
You need more help than justtrying to figure out how can I
(28:54):
say it different or how can Ishow up different, because
you've continued to do the workand then he's been able to get
out of that conversation or thatdiscomfort somehow.
So I think my biggest advicewould be you need more help, you
need support or yeah,definitely you don't know what
you don't know.
Jeff Jamison (29:13):
I love that phrase .
I mean.
I love especially when I get tohear some important things that
people have learned as they'vegone through the process of
understanding this thing.
I love how they go.
I just didn know X.
I just didn't know that if Iwere able to process it in this
(29:35):
way, I'd be free of it, yeah, orI'd be free of the guilt of
someone else's choices, right,right, and that's a big part
that I think women are havingsuch a hard time with is letting
go of their own guilt becauseof someone else's choices their
(29:56):
husband, boyfriend, whomever andletting go of that so that they
can feel free to make their ownchoices somebody hearing some
new information is going to sayyeah, but he's looking at other
women or yeah, but I, you know,and, and that's where it is
uncomfortable and how do we getrid of our discomfort and and
(30:17):
how?
Tony Overbay (30:17):
and we typically fall back into the familiar.
And that's when we say okay, no, it is okay.
This time it is different.
He said he's going to stop or,you know, he may have shut me
down, but at least I was able tosay something this time before.
And it is different.
And, man, I know Trisha I thinkwe've talked about this before
doing work with couples is thatthey will be motivated to come
(30:38):
in and then sometimes just evencoming in a time or two, they
they're better, they feel better.
But you know, but we know it'sa, it's the long game.
I mean, if it's better thatfast, all you did was you both
felt better, that you didsomething, but you still don't
even know what you don't knowabout the tools that you need to
heal or for that to help.
Trisha Jamison (30:56):
Yeah, Well, and I'd like to just kind of speak
into this as well.
So she talks about reclaimingher voice and her identity, and
the thing that I'd like to shareabout that is it takes time.
This isn't something that'sgoing to just.
You know, you find thisinformation and there's a
process that happens, and sooften you want an immediate
(31:18):
result.
It's not possible, right all thepain and all the anguish, to
get to a place that then you canthink you can function.
You can then be taught newtools, but it unfortunately
(31:38):
that's a real thing and a lot oftimes my clients are just like
I don't want to feel this pain,I don't want to be in the space.
Why do I?
You know I didn't do this, Ididn't cause this.
Why do I have to feel this?
That's not fair and it's notObviously.
It's not fair and it'sfrustrating, and I totally
appreciate where they're comingfrom.
(31:59):
But one of the things that wetalk about, too, is, once you
learn and grow into the personthat you will get to become, you
will have a voice, you willhave a different identity, you
will grow in that space that youcan't even imagine who you'll
become.
Jeff Jamison (32:20):
I think it's also important to point out that some
people, when they're goingthrough this and they're angry
and upset and mad, they makechoices that they regret.
Yeah, and upset and mad, theymake choices that they regret.
Yeah, okay, and so you know,they go and pull a Carrie
Underwood and key the truck andrip apart their you know, or
whatever it is that they arewhen they're being vindictive
(32:42):
regarding this, that they maylater regret because they may
have to serve jail time, theymay have to do other things that
make an understanding moredifficult, as they have to go
through more problems that theycreated themselves.
So hang in there.
Trisha Jamison (33:01):
Well, I think that that's rare.
I don't the people that I workwith.
Tony Overbay (33:05):
They're not vindictive like that, but I'm
sure that there may be some likethat but I think that they're
just so lost and they're justtrying to function oh, I totally
agree but I I hear you, dr jeff, because it's like I just did
an episode on reactive, ofreactive abuse or reactive
response, and it's almost one ofthe the more difficult things
where in the episode I talkabout the fact that when the
(33:27):
person does react, that then andthen I even changed the concept
of reactive abuse to reactiveresponse because I loved it A
couple of women in our groupwere talking about how I thought
hearing that it's you know,it's reactive abuse would be
liberating.
But then it's the verypathologically kind women that
are saying but that means I amabusing back, that my behavior
(33:49):
is abusive and I'm saying, right, but it's because he did the
thing and it was a beautifulconversation around.
But I don't want to be theperson that does that just
because he did, and that episodealone has gotten so much
feedback because it is areaction and it may not be your
best moment, but to giveyourself grace, because it is a
(34:11):
reaction to something that youdid not see coming at all, and
so I feel like giving somebodythe grace that you are going to
react.
You're a human and so, yeah,it's hard to know what that
reaction will be, and so I thinkthe biggest part is forgiving
yourself for that, if that iswhere you're at.
Trisha Jamison (34:29):
Well, and I think too along those lines, is
there's some amazing supportgroups out there and I've heard
that they really focus on angerand how to channel that anger in
a positive, constructive way.
That can be so much morehelpful because you know they
are angry, they are frustrated,they are so hurt and sometimes
(34:50):
that carries into, like you justsaid, behaviors that are not
going to be conducive to feelinggood later.
So OK, so she also askedsomething so jarring Was our
whole relationship a lie?
This is one of the hardestparts, because the human brain
wants black and white answers.
Was it real or fake?
(35:12):
Was it love or deception?
And yet real relationships, youknow they're really that simple
right.
So how do you help someone holdthe complexity of love and
betrayal in the same space?
Tony Overbay (35:28):
Well, the way you just said that is so good
Because this is is right back toone of my favorite concepts
that I think is not talked aboutenough Whole object relations.
Emotional immaturity is all ornothing, black or white, because
it's easier.
Emotional maturity is to beable to see a person, an entity,
a group you know I help peoplenavigate a faith journey, faith
(35:48):
crisis, a lot of religiousorganization.
You name it as a whole objectand that means I can really
appreciate some things, I canlove some things.
I can be frustrated about somethings, I might not even like
some things, and the ability andI love the way you put that,
trisha to hold all of that isemotional maturity, where we, we
(36:11):
just want certainty, so itdoesn't even mean I have to do
anything about it right now.
Part of the process is startingto recognize I don't like this,
I never have, but I can'tappreciate this and we need to
address this.
You know there's all thesedifferent things, because this
is probably one of the numberone questions is was their whole
relationship built off of liesand was, you know?
And whole object relations?
No, but, and I love that.
(36:32):
We'll talk about this when weget to the men's version of it,
but that to the, the personstruggles with the unhealthy
coping mechanisms.
They want to be as present asthey can in that moment, because
then that helps them feel likethey're not a horrible human
being for the things thatthey've turned to that they're
not proud about.
So sometimes they're trying tobe even more present in those
moments.
(36:52):
So I'm thinking about a couplethis week where this is going on
and she talked about but man,every time we would travel
together, it was so amazing.
And it's like, of course,because that's where he could
say man, when we travel togetherand it's just the two of us and
we're in this amazing place andwe're having all these new
novel experiences and we'respending more time together.
And she's like so was that notreal?
(37:13):
I was like that was real, thatwas there, you were in that
moment.
But then he would even comehome and he would say it was
almost like pulling back in.
You know, the plane lands andhere comes the shame there to
escort me off the plane and tosay, oh, really Like.
So you're now, look what you'regoing to do.
You're coming home and you'vegot this weight of this person
that you've never told her about.
(37:34):
And now you're, you know, youthink that you got away with
something on the vacation.
He was talking about hisinternal monologue and it was so
wild.
And what I loved is that sheimmediately wanted to then say,
oh, that must be hard and she'slike, I'm still mad and I was
like, of course, course, but youcan still be mad and you can
still have had a good time onthe vacation and you can still
want to see something change.
So, yeah, that is emotionalmaturity, but it's difficult
(37:58):
because our brains are going towant to keep going back to.
I need to make sense of it.
You need to help me understandit's.
Trisha Jamison (38:04):
it's so tough yeah, and I feel like we can.
They can honor the good withoutexcusing the harm, but it does,
Because we want to stay in thatforward motion.
That present state, becausethat's where you want to live is
(38:36):
what happened in trying tofigure things out, just what we
just talked about.
So, Jeff Paula mentioned herhusband was exposed to
pornography at the age of 10.
From a medical anddevelopmental standpoint, what
can that kind of early exposuredo to the brain and how might
that shape adult behavior,especially in relationships?
Jeff Jamison (38:58):
Well, this is a hard one, because when a person
is sexualized this is what thisis called when you are exposed
at an earlier age than probablya person should to the realities
of sexualization or sexuality,it can turn on those brain
centers earlier than you'dotherwise like to have that
(39:20):
happen and you're not able atthose younger ages to recognize
the right or the wrong of it atthat point and you're just
noticing that it is and how youfeel.
And a lot of times childrencan't figure's exciting or that
makes me feel weird or upset.
They feel those things but theydon't know how to name them.
(39:53):
And so what happens is thebrain turns towards well, I
enjoyed that experience becausethe curiosity was something.
And then it leads a person toseek out more of those
experiences.
If it was enjoyable, if it wassomething that made them unhappy
(40:16):
or scared them, they'reunlikely to go after more of
those experiences and it mayturn them off to sexuality later
.
So everybody has their ownreaction to it.
How a child, though at an earlyage, and children are getting
exposed to pornography andsexuality earlier and earlier,
(40:39):
and how it can manifest, is thatand in some boys, for instance,
and girls, frankly if they'resexualized early, then they can
act out those things on otherchildren or other people, or
they're more accepting of it ifit happens to them from a
trusted friend or relative.
So it becomes a non, not a oh,somebody did something bad to me
(41:03):
.
Or they don't even know whathappened until their late teens
or early 20s.
And then when they go, oh mygosh, I can't even believe I
allowed that to happen.
And then they feel shamebecause they didn't stop it back
then and they feel like thatthey were a bad child because
they didn't stand up forthemselves or they didn't tell
(41:25):
the mom or tell the dad this wasgoing on and it just leads to
an incredible amount of pain andsophisticated feelings that are
really hard to figure out oninto adulthood.
So how am I doing, tony?
Is that?
Tony Overbay (41:40):
what you thought.
Yeah, I know that's so wellsaid and it's so complicated,
because I like where you justsaid it, unfortunately it just
kind of is.
And then I've worked withenough people where then even
when they would try to saysomething to the parent, they
don't know how to express thatand then the parent doesn't want
to think that that could behappening.
So then it's like, oh, it's notthat bad or it's not that big
of a deal, and I'm not evensaying it as a the parent doing
(42:01):
anything wrong, because it justwe just don't know how to
communicate about this.
And I have to tell you there'sa, there's a documentary right
now on this and I listened to aninterview with her.
Her name's Lauren Greenfield,it's on Hulu and it's called
social studies and it is themost fascinating thing where and
she talks about how difficultit was to she got a bunch of
teens to allow her to haveaccess to their phones for the
(42:24):
span of about a year, and thenshe's filming a documentary and
so it would show you whensomebody's talking, like at a
school assembly and then ahandful of students, that then
what they're doing with theirphone at the time.
And she talked about one of thebiggest challenges is she's
trying to present thedocumentary just to just say
this just is like here'sinformation, do with it what you
(42:45):
will, but the information iskind of scary.
I mean it really is, and uh,and it really made me rethink.
All my kids are adults now, butI would have probably handled
things differently, even withwith phones at that time,
because they are exposed andeven exposure is.
We don't even understand whatthat means now, cause exposure
to me was, um, like, honestly, akid found a you know, finds the
(43:06):
playboy in the field, puts aboy's life magazine cover over
it One of the greatest thingsI've ever seen done by a 13 year
old boy and then we had accessto a magazine, you know, and now
they're talking about thesevideos and going on TikTok and
and Instagram and you name it.
And then just the algorithm, theway that plays out it just I
(43:28):
can sound like such an old man.
I'm about to say, hey, kids,get off my lawn right now, but
it's, the exposure is so real.
And then they're trying to makesense of it with their brain
and they're not talking to theparents and they're turning to
each other and it is normalized.
It's so wild.
So that documentary is it'sactually it's quite
uncomfortable, but it's reallyreally powerful as well.
Trisha Jamison (43:49):
Well, thank you, and I really think too that you
know this is such an importantpiece to understand.
So when pornography becomes acoping mechanism, at age 10
years old.
It becomes part of thatperson's neurological reward
system Just exactly what Jeffwas talking about, and I think
that this doesn't mean hedoesn't love the person or isn't
(44:11):
attracted.
It just means his system haslearned to, like you talked
about, soothe or in a waybypasses emotional intimacy
later in life and understanding.
That doesn't excuse thebehavior, whether it's anxious,
disorganized, avoidant.
Tony Overbay (44:48):
there's a movement by psychologists to call it
your attachment orientation,even because just to really
understand that the attachmentyou bring into your relationship
was formed so long ago that youknow.
This is where I believe we'rein relationships to learn about
ourselves.
And we need to do that throughthe relationship with another
person, because we're going intothat relationship not knowing
(45:09):
who we are and but then theimmature version of that is I
still need this person, I needto hide from this person and I
need them to think that I'mperfect and uh, and I need them
to make me feel better.
And if you think about that,that's a lot of to put on
another person and to notrecognize about yourself.
Trisha Jamison (45:27):
Right, right, yeah, thank you.
I think that's awesome thatwe're talking about this,
because it's hard.
This is hard subject and one ofthe things that I feel is, when
your trust is shattered, yourbody can feel like it doesn't
belong to you anymore, andthat's real trauma, and so you
want to be able to, like youmentioned earlier, to confide in
(45:51):
people that can be helpful andto allow yourself.
You know that support person isgoing to be so important, just
like we talked about Tony, oryou know, coach or whatever that
understands this.
But, jeff, I want to ask you,what do you say to women who
(46:12):
feel like their safety has beenviolated emotionally and
physically and doesn't even knowwhere to begin with the next
steps?
Would you be able to help themknow what those next steps are?
Or, tony, you can share that aswell.
Jeff Jamison (46:33):
Well, I think Tony's got more information on
that one, but I would definitelysteer a person towards getting
more grounding help so that theycan figure out what they don't
know and to be able toincorporate and understand and
empower themselves.
Tony Overbay (46:42):
I mean really, and I think you're right and I
don't want to oversimplify it,but I like I just love the theme
of today's episode is that itis going to be all the things
that you're going to think thatare the right things to do and
I'm not trying to say are thewrong things to do but I would
just, I would just bring nothelpful, they're not as the.
They're not as helpful and itkind of goes back to this sounds
(47:03):
.
It sounds so trite, but if ournatural reactions and responses
were the way to heal naturally,then we would all be okay by now
.
Trisha Jamison (47:12):
I think about this so often right Like shaming
myself or beating myself up.
Tony Overbay (47:16):
It actually helped .
I would be out of a job,because then we would all just
you know, oh, I beat myself upand now I feel better, and now I
don't ever do it again.
That isn't the way it works,and I really think about this so
often, just when Dr Jeff wassaying earlier, it really is
that we don't know what we don'tknow.
So what do I need to learn?
What do I not know?
And it goes back to thisDunning-Kruger effect, where the
(47:38):
more that you learn that youknow, the more you understand
that you don't know.
And that is emotional maturity,because the more emotionally
immature we are, then we know,we think we know a thing.
So it probably means that wecan make sense of these other
things.
And, yeah, this is the way thisall works and we do that long
enough.
And that implicit memory, orwhat it feels like to be us, is
(47:59):
that I think I have pretty muchan idea of how everything works.
And I hear this so often, drJeff, I'm sure you do Trisha,
where somebody is saying, yeah,why do I need to go to a
therapist?
I'm sure I already know whatthey're going to do.
They're just going to validateme.
They're going to tell me this,they're going to take my money.
Or why do I even need to go toa doctor?
He's just going to tell me to.
You know, just take a couple.
(48:24):
I'm going to a therapistbecause there are things I must
blind spots, I must not know.
Or and thank goodness, I wentto a doctor when I thought my
back was hurting.
Really I was thinking, oh well,I'll give it six months and
we'll see.
And, as we were talking off theair here, if I would have done
that I'd have even more nervedamage.
So maybe the relationshipdamage go get help.
(48:44):
You do not know what you don'tknow, and that's okay and bless
your heart.
And we get to this point.
And now it's about what do youdo?
Because this is the time toheal, it really is moving
forward.
Trisha Jamison (48:54):
Yeah, that's so good.
Thank you both of you.
Tony, paula didn't hear thisfrom her husband.
She discovered it.
There's a rupture that happenswith betrayal, but when
discovery replaces disclosure,that rupture becomes
disorientation.
Can you speak to the differencebetween discovery and
(49:15):
disclosure and how that impactsthe healing process?
Tony Overbay (49:19):
You know what, and I'm not going to say I'm going
to make it sound like I'm goingto skirt this and want to hear
your thoughts because mine arejust.
I feel like in the world I workin, long ago I kind of I felt
like I let go of the if somebodyfound out, versus they were
told, because either way, evenwhen somebody told the other
person, that's usually beenbecause they're finally they've
(49:40):
had enough and they're trying toalleviate their guilt or
discomfort, because they'refinally they've had enough and
they're trying to alleviatetheir guilt or discomfort, and
it still is like dropping a bombon their partner.
Or if their partner finds out,then it's this like devastation,
but then from that pointforward it really does.
It's kind of the same fromwhere I've been working, because
now the person that receivesthe information or found out the
(50:03):
information on their own, it'slike let the games begin Now I
still wait why?
And I can't believe you, youknow, either you didn't tell me
or I can't even believe you toldme, you know, and it's.
It's so wild because I think itall falls back into the trying
to make sense of and and I worrythat this will sound dismissive
, or, but I hope you can kind ofsee where I'm going with this.
Is that it's I kind of go backto why didn't he tell me?
(50:25):
Well, because he didn't and hemaybe he would have had enough
external pressure eventuallyhappened, but you found it
sooner than he told you, or youknow, he told me.
Sometimes the person even tellsyou to alleviate their
discomfort and almost to ask forpermission.
And this is where I can have.
It can even be a challenge attimes.
I feel like I'm going on atangent.
(50:46):
But I even struggle sometimeswith the concept of confession,
because sometimes somebody Ijust feel so bad I need to tell
her, so I feel better and now Ijust put it on her.
Now it's on you.
I told you and so now you'regetting mad at me.
At least I told you, and that'sthe energy that can come into
the office.
So I'm not trying to dismissthat, but whether one finds it
(51:10):
or it is told to, them.
Trisha Jamison (51:12):
the aftershock is fairly similar.
Tony Overbay (51:13):
Okay, but I know that I can sound dismissive.
Trisha Jamison (51:15):
I will admit that I think that that's kind of
a trust thing, because they'retrusting each other and I think
that that becomes such a trustthing.
But what I've seen is thatwomen of discovery feel crazy.
They start questioning not justthe relationship but actually
their own instincts.
It's kind of like how come Ididn't see this, how come I
didn't feel that there wassomething off or wrong?
(51:37):
And what I just like to say isthey're not crazy.
You're experiencing betrayaltrauma, and that's why it's
important to just even like dosimple things, like write things
down, just so you canappreciate the process.
You want to get things out ofyour brain and out of your body
so you can start the healingprocess, and just by writing
(51:59):
things out, verbalizing things,that really is helpful.
You want to maybe even setboundaries, even temporary ones,
to reclaim your space and speakyour truth to again a therapist
or a coach or a safe friend,and I think that those pieces
are going to be really importantmoving forward.
But right now it's like yourlife is completely flipped
(52:23):
upside down.
It is so shattered, just likeshe says she has no idea where
to start, where to begin, andit's just like you just got to
live each day and just simplifyyour life, do anything you can
to just bring down the loads,because your brain is working so
hard to try to process what iseven happening and you're in
(52:44):
such a high emotional state thatyou don't even know what you
don't want or what you do want.
Like she said, she doesn't knowshe wants to keep that
relationship alive or you knowhow she can even trust, how can
she rebuild again.
You know, I think that there'sjust so much compassion and
grace that a person needs togive themselves in the situation
(53:04):
and there's so many highexpectations that they don't
feel like they can do that.
They have to show up big, theyhave to be there for their
little kids.
They have to, they have topretend too, and if there's
anything that I'd share is don'tpretend this is real, and the
more that you can take off themask because he's been wearing a
(53:24):
mask, you don't want to wear amask too.
You want to just be real, beraw, allow yourself to be
vulnerable because you're inthat state, and the more that
you can just focus on healingyou, and whether the
relationship continues or youknow, he's got to go on his own
(53:48):
healing journey and we're goingto talk about that next week,
but the most imperative thing isyou healing you and you focus
on what do I need right now?
What does my body need?
Do I need nourishment?
Do I need movement?
Do I need a friend?
Do I need someone to take careof my children?
Tony Overbay (54:01):
Sleep.
Trisha Jamison (54:01):
What do you need ?
Well, sleep is most of the time, doesn't happen because, you're
afraid to sleep because you'rein this fight or flight and it's
really hard.
Jeff Jamison (54:10):
Your nervous system is not going to be
relaxed, but it doesn't mean youdon't need it.
Trisha Jamison (54:13):
Yeah, you do need sleep.
I'm just saying that the morethat you can focus on safety,
the more that you can focus onwhere you're at.
Do a body scan.
Where are you feeling that pain?
You're at, do a body scan.
Where are you feeling that pain.
Hone in on some of these issuesand places that feel so painful
and dysregulated.
You will be able to start theprocess.
(54:36):
So, like I said, this is aprocess.
This takes time and it's notgoing to be something that
you're going to be able to doquickly, overnight, even the
next week, the next month, andtrust.
One of the biggest things thatI always hear is you know, how
can I trust him again?
And I don't know if this camefrom you, tony, or who, but it
(54:56):
was one of the things that Ialways share with them is it's
not your job to trust them.
They have to show you that theycan be trusted, and so they get
to take that off of their plate.
I think that that's the biggesthang up that they have is how
can I trust again?
Well, guess what you don't haveto.
They get to prove that to you.
Tony Overbay (55:17):
Okay, and I love it because, yeah, what I always
say, that is, you have to acceptthe fact that you may never
trust them again.
Because then, with thatacceptance, then I'm not always
trying to determine can I trustthis, can I not trust this?
Is this?
Because it's going to take timeand it's going to take, I say,
emotional consistency, it'sgoing to take stability, it's
going to take transparency, it'sgoing to take a lot of things
(55:38):
to rebuild.
So I first have to accept thefact I may never trust him again
and I tell the guy like, hey,you have to accept that too,
because if not the guy's goingto put off this energy of look,
I told you this, now you need totrust me.
It's like oh no, you need to doit because it's the right thing
to do.
It has to be outcome,independent and over time.
That'll start to build thetrust.
And and then if somebody says,well, how long, when will I know
(55:58):
, I don't know start the journey, because eventually you will
feel the, the guy will start tofeel that what he didn't know,
he didn't know.
Oh, this isn't as scary as Ithink it is being this open or
vulnerable or consistent, andthen the wife will start to
recognize I'm going to test forsafety.
We can talk about this nextweek too, because I tell the guy
oh, of course she's now goingto test for safety and that's
(56:20):
your job to provide thatemotional safety, emotional
consistency, emotional stabilityand then be grateful that she
is still there testing forsafety, because that means that
you have a chance to improveyourself and show her I get it.
This is the thing that changed.
So I really I love that part.
Trisha Jamison (56:36):
Yeah, and I think that this is one of the
most common places people orwomen get stuck because they're
carrying so much emotionalweight and that load that we
were just talking about.
But life doesn't stop.
The dishes still need to bedone, the kids still need to eat
dinner.
It's so imperative to bringthem back to regulation, not
(56:57):
perfection, and, like we talkedabout, there's certain things
that you can do.
Breathing Breathing is soimportant and I love what's
called the box breathing andit's you inhale for four counts,
you hold for four counts, youexhale for four counts and then
(57:18):
you hold again for four counts.
You do that six or seven times.
That starts to regulate yournervous system.
And it really really makes adifference when you pause for 30
seconds and you just put yourhand on your heart and you
continue to breathe.
That reminds yourself you areokay, you are worthy, you are
important.
That just helps you feel likeyou're inside your body and
(57:39):
because sometimes I've heardthat you know you feel so
disoriented you don't even feellike you're part of your body.
So that's going to be a reallyimportant piece.
And then again, just scanningyour body what do you need?
Do you need stillness?
Do you need movement.
Do you need nourishment?
What is it that you need?
Jeff Jamison (58:00):
and it's also going to take some trial and
error to figure out when you dothat Exactly.
And to be able to say, okay, Ithink I need movement.
Well, that I didn't needbecause, you know, or I, I need
to, I need to eat.
But sometimes the reaction isyou need to eat too much and so,
and so you have to.
Just, it takes some trial anderror.
Trisha Jamison (58:20):
Yep, and I think just doing everything you can
to stay present.
Sometimes a cold shower,holding ice cubes, makes you
feel like you're in a presentstate, going outside to the
sunshine.
There's just something aboutincorporating your five senses,
what you see.
You know five things.
(58:41):
You see and hear and you knowit's going to be just learning
some new techniques here.
And you know it's going to bejust learning some new
techniques and, just like Jeffsaid, it's not going to be.
You know you may hear a lot ofdifferent things and you need to
find what works for you, butthe thing that I just really
want to emphasize this again isa process and it takes time and
you have there's a healingjourney, and the more that you
(59:03):
allow yourself to go on thathealing journey and not try to
mask things, you'll be able tomove through it in a way that
will be conducive andcomfortable for each individual
person.
Jeff Jamison (59:14):
Well said yeah.
Trisha Jamison (59:16):
Do any of you have any last minute thoughts
that you'd like to share withour listeners?
Tony Overbay (59:21):
Tony, tony, I mean , I just I think that there was.
I'm so grateful we had thisepisode and for Paula's question
and I can't wait to get to nextweek.
But I think, if anything, whenTrisha we were saying that I
just and what Dr Jeff said in mymind I constantly have this
concept of it's your ownindividualized, customized
treatment plan, so doing you'regoing to figure out what does
work, what doesn't work, butjust know that any of it, that
(59:43):
you're not doing any of it wrong, first time you've ever been
you in this situation, it'shappening, so check that out.
It's like this is your chance aswell to get rid of your own
personal shame or guilt.
So you're, and nobody wantsthis to happen.
I know that and I know we'veall mentioned this a time or two
on this podcast, which I love.
Trisha Jamison (01:00:00):
That's why they hide it.
Tony Overbay (01:00:01):
Yeah, right, but then it's like it's such an odd
spot to be in where people say Iwish none of this would have
ever happened, but if they canembrace the moment and learn new
tools, this is what helpspeople grow to become better
themselves and can even improvethe relationship, which is wild
to think right now.
I promise that is a wildconcept, but it can be
(01:00:22):
potentially a thing.
Jeff Jamison (01:00:24):
My last thing is two things.
Number one give yourself graceand allow for the you not
knowing what to do next, andthat it's okay that you don't.
And then the last one, asTrisha and Tony, you both have
said, is time.
This is an incredible blessingto have time to let things work
(01:00:46):
through.
Sometimes it seems like youjust can't even go on another
step, but giving yourself timeand saying another day will
happen, the next day may be alittle better, and giving
yourself time will help so much.
Tony Overbay (01:01:02):
Well said.
Trisha Jamison (01:01:03):
Thank you both, and I want to pause and speak
directly to Paula and to anyoneelse listening who might feel
like this story could be theirown.
This is not your fault.
This isn't about you being lessthan unlovable or not enough.
His pornography issues didn'tstart with you and while his
(01:01:23):
choices carry real consequences,they are not a reflection of
your worth.
You are not broken and you arenot to blame and, most
importantly, you are not alone.
Healing takes time, just likewe've all been talking about.
The relationship may or may notsurvive, but you will and you
can start that healing today.
(01:01:45):
There is a lot of helpavailable, and if this story
resonated with you and if youand your spouse are navigating
emotional disconnection or feellike your marriage is hanging on
by a thread, I want to inviteyou into a deeper journey.
My eight-month Healing Heartsprogram is for couples who feel
like giving up but want one lasthonest, guided path forward.
(01:02:09):
If trust has been broken, ifconnection is lost, I want you
to know that there is a place tobegin.
This is that beginning, and ifthis is something that resonates
with you, please email me attrishajamisoncoaching@ gmailcom
and let's have a conversation.
Please email me attrishajamisoncoaching@gmailcom
and let's have a conversation.
And if this episode touchedyour heart or made you think of
(01:02:29):
someone you care about, pleaseshare it with them.
We grow this community throughconnection, and your stories,
your questions and your feedbackdeeply matter to us.
And if you haven't already,please hit subscribe and leave
us a review.
It helps more than you willever know.
And don't forget to send inyour brain questions.
Chances are, if it's on yourheart, someone else needs to
(01:02:53):
hear it too.
And next week we'll hear Keith'sstory.
Keith is a husband who's beenbattling a hidden struggle and
deep secret with pornography foryears and after seeing the
impact it's had on his marriage,he's finally ready to speak out
.
His question is raw, honest andincredibly brave.
He's not excusing his choices,but he's trying to understand
(01:03:15):
where they began and how tobreak the cycle.
What happens when a man iswilling to look inward, own his
story and start doing the work?
We hope you'll join us for thenext conversation, because it's
one that could change the way wetalk about shame, healing and
hope from the other side ofbetrayal.
So we're here, we're listeningand we're honored to be part of
(01:03:38):
your healing journey.
We'll see you next time on theQ&A Files.
Goodbye everybody.
Thanks everybody.
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&AFiles, delighted to share
today's gems of wisdom with you.
Your questions light up ourshow, fueling the engaging
dialogues that make ourcommunity extra special.
Keep sending your questions totrishajamesoncoaching@ gmail.
com.
Your curiosity is our compass.
(01:04:01):
Please hit, subscribe, spreadthe word and let's grow the
circle of insight and communitytogether.
I'm Trisha Jamison, signing off.
Stay curious, keep thriving andkeep smiling, and I'll catch
you on the next episode.
Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the
ultimate health and wellnessplayground.
I'm your host, Trisha Jamison,a board-certified functional
nutritionist and lifestylepractitioner, ready to lead you
through a world of healthdiscoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry ofdisease prevention to nutrition
, exercise, mental health andbuilding strong relationships,
all spiced with diverseperspectives.
(00:29):
It's not just a podcast, it's acelebration of health, packed
with insights and a twist of fun.
Welcome aboard the Q&A Files,where your questions ignite our
vibrant discussions and lead toa brighter you.
Welcome, Wellness Warriors, toanother episode of the Q&A Files
.
I am Trisha Jamison, afunctional nutritionist and
lifestyle practitioner and alife coach, and your host today,
(00:52):
and I'm here with two amazinghumans Dr Jeff Jamison, a
board-certified family physician, and Tony Overbay, a licensed
marriage and family therapist.
Always so grateful for yourwisdom and honesty, and thank
you so much, both of you, forbeing here today.
Tony Overbay (01:06):
Hey, good to see you, happy to be here.
Trisha Jamison (01:07):
Yeah.
So before we dive in, let'sstart with what, tony, because I
know you have so many.
Tony Overbay (01:15):
Celebrations.
But, man, I'm going to be sokind and let one of you guys go
first.
Trisha Jamison (01:20):
Okay, jeff, I'm going to be so fine, I'm going
to let you go first.
Jeff Jamison (01:25):
Oh, Tony, thank you so much for letting that.
I'm just so grateful for Tonygetting me this opportunity.
Trisha Jamison (01:32):
Is that what we're doing?
He?
Jeff Jamison (01:36):
loves Tony.
Okay, so this last week ourdaughter Alyssa was able to be
here at our house with her kidsand we just had a wonderful time
with them and they were fun andoh busy.
You know they are busy kids,but they're wonderful.
Took three of them flying oneof the days and so we just flew
(01:58):
around the area and looked atthings and they were amazed and
you know all of those wonderfulchildhood things of being up in
the airplane and be able to seewhere you're going is pretty
cool.
So my gratitude has to do withgrandchildren, my daughter, our
daughter Alyssa, and flying.
Trisha Jamison (02:16):
Beautiful, perfect, tony.
Tony Overbay (02:19):
Okay, I really did have one today and it was what
we were talking to before we hitrecord.
And it's just the the, themiracle of modern medicine.
And I, since we last recorded,I got my what I've been calling
my new headshots, that are myx-rays, that have the hardware
in my neck, and it is wild, itis so crazy to think I have this
titanium plate and screws andcages and spacers, and my
(02:40):
vertebrae and my pain is gone,and to think that in the end of
December, I knew nothing wasbrewing underneath the surface.
And here we are in April, andit's wild.
I think about the therapy toolsthat I like to preach and
acceptance, and it just is, andthat happened.
And then, boy, though, whenthat happens to you, I never
(03:02):
anticipated being someone thatis walking around that has
titanium plate and screws intheir vertebrae and then is okay
, and I've been thinking so muchabout when I am healed, the
choices I get to make, movingforward of.
Do I try to keep hammering awayat the things, the person I was
, exercise wise and thingsbefore, or, but I think I'm
(03:25):
going to it's time to become aYogi and a Pilates guru, and
maybe not an ultra marathonrunner, and embrace all the
things that I don't even knowabout.
So I I've just had this mindshift over the last week of of
okay here, here we are next.
Next adventure with screws andplates in my neck.
Trisha Jamison (03:40):
I really appreciate that because probably
about a year and a half ago Ireally had to change my exercise
regimen from doing insanity,crazy workouts to not so much.
I walk a lot.
I do a lot of other thingsbecause I want to protect my
(04:01):
body and before it was like Iwas invincible, I could do
anything yes and so I appreciatethat mindset because just
thinking you're, you know, themore you work out, the better
you're gonna feel, and actuallyI feel like that's not true
anymore.
I've been able to enjoy so muchmore because I'm not so crazy
anymore.
Tony Overbay (04:20):
Still crazy but I love it.
I, yeah, right.
And then normally when werecorded these, I've tried to
have already had a whatever a 10mile run or whatever it's in,
and today I had a nice three anda half mile walk listening to
an audio book.
Isn't it fun?
Yeah, yes.
Trisha Jamison (04:39):
It was.
It was nice.
I took two of our grandkids,the four that were here this
week.
I took two of them, our10-year-old and 6-year-old, and
drove them.
Well, almost 11 hours, notmiles.
Tony Overbay (04:54):
I wish it was 11 miles.
Trisha Jamison (04:55):
Our 10-year-old wished it was 11 miles because
she kind of got sick on the wayhome and we went to Utah for a
week.
And we went to Utah for a weekand so our daughter, our third
daughter, michaela.
She has three children and theyhave a six-year-old and I took
a six-year-old and they're likebest buddies, so they've grown
(05:16):
up together.
They have missed each other somuch and so I took him and then
I took Lily, our 10-year-old, aswell, so she could help him,
because you know he likes tosleep with his sister and so
that was really helpful.
But they were amazing, theywere absolutely amazing.
(05:38):
We had so much fun.
And then, when we came home,our second daughter, alyssa, was
here with the other two and wejust enjoyed them with all four
kids and we just had a greattime.
So, had so much fun in Utah andbest grandma of the year award
goes to Right, but I got tospend time with our other
(05:59):
daughter, capri and her husband,colin, and Chase and Desireee,
and got to see their little baby, owen, and Owen was born on
Christmas Day and Michaela,their youngest, was born just
the day before Thanksgiving.
So we've got some sweet littlebabies that we get to enjoy, and
I was really, really missingthem, so it was so great to
spend some time there.
(06:20):
So that's my celebration andthank you so much for sharing
your celebrations.
Those are all awesome.
Now, today we're diving into adeeply emotional and complex
topic pornography andrelationships.
So over time we've had severalquestions come in on this topic,
(06:41):
but today I want to highlighttwo in particular in on this
topic.
But today I want to highlighttwo in particular, and one of
these questions came in a littlewhile ago and the second one
just came in this week, andthey're from two different
people, so two different stories, but they both center on the
same struggle how pornographyimpacts trust, intimacy and
(07:01):
emotional safety.
And what makes this so powerfulis that we get to look at it
from both a wife and a husband'sperspective.
They are not a married couple,but they are both speaking to
the pain and confusion that thisissue brings just from opposite
sides of the experience.
So I'm really glad we're ableto talk about this topic We'll
(07:24):
focus on one today, one questiontoday and one next week and I
think it offers a fuller pictureof the hurt, the hope and the
healing that's possible.
This is such a sensitive topicand I honestly don't know where
to start.
My husband and I have beenmarried for about eight years.
(07:48):
We have two young children,ages three and six.
I always thought we had a goodmarriage.
He had shared with me a longtime ago that he was first
exposed to pornography aroundthe age of 10 through a friend's
older brother.
Over the years he's mentionedjust on occasion that he might
be struggling again, but healways reassured me he was
(08:09):
keeping it in check and he washandling it.
So I had absolutely no ideaanything more serious was going
on.
But recently I found images onhis phone and that opened a door
I never wanted to walk through.
What I discovered wasoverwhelming websites, explicit
conversations and a hiddenPayPal account.
It turns out he's been payingfor things, for services and
(08:31):
things I didn't even knowexisted.
He's been living a second lifeand I only found out because I
stumbled upon it.
The part that wrecks me is thathe didn't come clean.
I had to find out myself isthat he didn't come clean.
I had to find out myself, andthat is so painful.
I've always tried to take careof myself.
I work out, I try to lookattractive and I genuinely
(08:52):
believed we had a strongconnection.
So I can't help but ask why fakewomen?
Why choose that over me?
Was our entire relationshipbased on lies?
Is this about me not beingenough, or is this about
something deeper inside of himthat I'll never be able to
understand?
I feel sick to my stomach, I'mfurious, but at the same time I
(09:16):
feel completely numb.
Most days I don't even knowwhat day it is.
I am overwhelmed and lost.
How do I even begin to recoverfrom this?
I'm struggling just to takecare of myself.
I don't know how to rebuildtrust or if I even want to.
And the hardest part, I stillhave to show up for my kids,
even when I feel like I'mfalling apart inside.
(09:36):
Can you please help me?
So, first of all, there's somuch pain in Paula's story
Betrayal, confusion, numbnessand that deep ache of not
knowing what's real anymore.
And what stood out to me themost was her question.
Why fake women?
Why choose that over me?
(09:58):
And, even more painfully, wasour entire relationship based on
lies.
So I've actually seen this manytimes.
When betrayal is uncovered andthere's this almost immediate
collapse into shame, she startsscanning her body, her behavior,
her worth.
It's like she's trying toretroactively figure out where
she failed, when really thisisn't about her failure at all.
(10:22):
So, tony, I want to start withyou.
You've walked alongside manywomen in this exact emotional
space.
Why is it that when betrayallike this happens, so many women
internalize it and begin toquestion their own worth?
And how can someone like Paulabegin to separate her value from
(10:46):
her partner's choices?
Tony Overbay (10:48):
This is such a good question.
I want to ask Trisha, tell meif this would be okay.
I want to just say, can youeither put her question in our
chat of Zoom or even text me,because I would love to almost
break it down.
This is so amazing and I'mgrateful for Paula for asking
this, and I want, of course, Idon't want to hog the show, but,
man, this is the world I workin every day and from both the
(11:11):
men and the women, anddefinitely not trying to plug my
book, but I've got a bookcalled he's a Porn Addict.
Now what An Expert and a FormerAddict Answer your Questions,
and it's a co-author with a guynamed Josh Shea and then we both
had eight chapters of questionslike these that then I answered
from.
I played the role of the expert, he played the role of the
addict, and we didn't know whateach other was going to say, and
(11:32):
then we just put them alltogether for the book and it's
just really fascinating, becauseI'm trying to shed light on my
view of working with a lot ofmen and women and then he was
saying, okay, here's where hewas at, and I just think it's so
interesting to her question is.
So there's so many layers here.
It's so deep, it is, it is andit's so good too, and I'm
grateful.
Yeah, we need to break thisdown in as many episodes as we
(11:55):
need to.
I think this could be reallypowerful and helpful, because
I'll just start.
I'll start addressing it whileyou're doing that too, Trisha.
But why does somebody, why doesPaula initially make it about
her?
And that is because she's ahuman and that's what we do.
And I've been thinking a lotabout this the last couple of
weeks.
I did a couples training fromthis amazing couples therapist
(12:15):
named Terry Real, and he hasthis concept where he talks
about what was adaptive.
That we did as a child ismaladaptive as an adult, and so
the adaptive part of our childis what has protected us as a
kid.
And I go back to this One ofthe first things that we do is
you know from the beginning, ifwe express our emotions, if we
do anything like that, ourparent will meet our needs.
I'm talking early.
(12:35):
We cry, we get fed, we you know, if we say we need something,
our parent will come to a rescue.
But then, the older we get,even the more expressive we get.
Our parents are busy in theirown lives and people are doing
their own things, and so we'restill just wired to think, okay,
why are people not making mefeel better?
And so then it must be me.
I mean, here's our core elementof shame that it's not just
(12:57):
that I am unworthy, I'munlovable because now I'm
expressing something and thisperson did it to me.
So it's one of those thingsthat we just kind of it's in our
programming and there's also aconcept of that.
And so that was adaptive as akid, because how would we know
any better?
We're egocentric as a kid.
Everything is happening to us.
It is we only know of our world, and so that was how we had to
(13:20):
adapt and survive as a kid,trying to make sense of things.
But then as an adult, now thatbecomes maladaptive, because
it's still just our immediatereaction is how could they do
this to me?
But then also part of that is Ineed to make sense of it and
that I can fix it.
If I can make it about me, Ican do something about it.
But in reality this is more,and I love what part of her
question is.
It's not necessarily about her.
(13:41):
I mean, it's a him issue andit's something that he is
struggling with, that he doesn'tknow how to communicate well,
that he is living the dual life,and so it isn't about her.
Jeff Jamison (13:51):
But, man, that is a hard concept to to believe,
right, and I'll pause because Idon't want to just keep going
but it just seems like there'sso much pain yeah, that happens
from that that it's it's hardfor her not to take it upon
herself, and I think one of thecore things that happen with
(14:12):
women anyway is that at theircore, they're comparative.
Yes, totally they compare, youknow, does my hair look as good
as so-and-so's hair?
And I think sometimes womenlook at women more than guys
look at women.
Trisha Jamison (14:28):
I agree with that Not in the same way Agreed.
Jeff Jamison (14:33):
But the thing that happens, I think, is that women
take the problem of pornographyand internalize it as that they
are comparing with the quotefake women, unquote on the
screen or on the page, andthey're trying to be somehow
able to compete with them.
And it's an impossible task andthey know it, but it still is
(14:57):
painful.
And I'm not sure how, tony may,you've got a lot more
understanding of this, of how tohelp women understand what's
going on within themselves sothat they can walk through this.
Tony Overbay (15:11):
So and I like well , I like what you're saying
there too, and this is funny.
I just wrote I watch me quotemyself.
How egotistical is that.
But I literally just waswriting about this yesterday,
about comparison in general.
So I was just right and I saidwe're all.
We're also hardwired with afundamental need for social
connection, to belong to a group, a tribe of people.
So I just said, in ourevolutionary past, being
separated from your group oryour tribe didn't just mean
(15:32):
you'd miss out on the latestmeme or out of the loop.
It meant that you were exposedto all the elements, including
predators, and you could die.
So how does your brain protectyou from being left out?
By running a continuous socialcomparison program?
Am I meeting a groupexpectation?
Am I wearing anything that willget me teased?
Am I at least better thanskinnier than, smarter than
funnier than, or a million otherthan's, the other people in my
tribe?
Have I said anything that willmake people think less of me?
(15:53):
Are my contributions valued?
Who, then, am I?
I need somebody to tell me whatI need to do.
And then and I just said, thankyou, social media.
But now I'm even comparingmyself to a version of me that I
think I need to be, or elseI've somehow even let myself
down.
So it's just that's exhausting.
So I think that's the constantprogramming that's going on in
our, in our minds, that's likethere for in our DNA.
So so much of this, I think, isjust it's visceral, it's
(16:14):
reactionary, so, and it has tocome to this boiling point
before you even are aware of it.
And then, immediately, that'swhere we go to the what is wrong
with me?
What can I do to fix this?
Why would he do this to me?
So I just, I just I hope thatI'm laying that case out enough
that how normal it is, but howjust reactionary it is.
And and again, our reactionsare part of that childhood
programming that I need to reactin order to get somebody to pay
(16:36):
attention to me and ultimatelyto make me feel better, and so
it's just so normal.
Trisha Jamison (16:41):
Right, and I think this is such a big problem
in our world and I think thatone of the unfortunate things,
we don't talk about it becauseit's so shamed, yeah, and it's
embarrassing and it's awful.
I mean on both spectrums, and Iappreciate, just as I've worked
(17:03):
with couples as well, howembarrassing and shaming it is
for the husband because he getson the shame train and how
devastating it is for the wife,yeah, because it's like and
we're going to talk all aboutthese different things.
So I'm just going to, we'regoing to break them down, but,
(17:25):
yes, I mean, it's just such adevastating piece of information
because you thought you knewyour spouse and to have this
exposed it's like what, whatwent wrong?
And just like you talked abouttony, they internalize it.
It's if they can find out thatthere's something wrong with
them then, they can change thatthing.
(17:46):
It's so hard to help womenunderstand that it has nothing
to do with them.
But how can you tell a womanwhen he's looking at all these
pictures and explicit thingsthat it has nothing to do with
them?
It's such a hard concept towrap their head around.
Tony Overbay (18:04):
Yeah.
And also that I still want tosay from like, we all three have
different perspectives.
I love mine is still thatnothing went wrong.
It was happening, it just is.
Now it has been brought tolight and now what do we do
about it really?
But then that is hard to.
I can't even imagine being herin that position, because then
she again, we want to make senseof things so bad.
(18:24):
We have this desperate need forto make sense and certainty and
we just think, if I can get allthe questions answered, if I
can make it make sense to me,then I'll feel better.
So that's even the part whereand I don't know if we want to
go down this path but even now,let's say, when she finds out
she goes and confronts herhusband.
This is where I've said, youknow, this is always hindsight,
(18:45):
it is.
But you want to say can youpause right there and find
someone that you can work withand an expert that you can work
with?
Because here comes the why didyou do this?
And now he's caught off guard,he feels shame.
And now here comes the, thebeloved staggered disclosure,
where now he doesn't even wantto think that he could have done
the things, that that he did soand he doesn't want to hurt her
.
He has the shame going.
(19:05):
So now let me just staggeredsome information, and and I just
I can't stress this enoughYou've got to her, which I know
it makes so much sense whereshe's saying I just need to know
, I need all the answers, and ifI can get the answers I'll feel
better and then it'll makesense to me.
He doesn't, honestly, even knowcompletely why he's done the
things he's done, and he'scertainly tried to bury those
(19:25):
with shame.
And so then, because of theshame, and so now he's going to
just give her a little bit, alittle bit, a little bit, which
is not going to make sense toher.
Trisha Jamison (19:33):
There's no way.
Tony Overbay (19:34):
It's not enough and it's not so she'll keep
saying more and that'll get himto say more.
And now here comes the pattern,the staggered disclosure that
if I just stay on this, thenhe'll say things, and he might
even say things that he doesn'teven believe himself.
Just trying to get her to feelbetter and him to.
Trisha Jamison (19:48):
It's such a pattern, and one of the things
that I tell my clients is youthink you want to know all the
information, but I, I assurethem that they don't, because
then your mind just spins andyou just think of all of these
crazy images.
That is never helpful, but theydon't understand that, they
(20:10):
can't appreciate, they're likeno, I want to know all of it.
I, I want him to be honest, Iwant him to disclose it all to
me, because then he's being openand vulnerable and yeah, so I,
I like to hear that a lotsometimes patients come to me
and they say you, they have thisproblem, whatever the problem
(20:31):
is, and it has happened to them.
Jeff Jamison (20:34):
And what they want to know is why did it happen to
them?
And the why question is almostnever answerable.
And when you say, well, if it'san easy one, like you fell down
and you broke your arm, that'swhy.
If it's an easy one like youfell down and you broke your arm
, that's why.
But the reason that they'retrying to know why is not
(20:55):
because they really want tounderstand the process, it's
because they want to get infront of it so that it doesn't
happen again or that they canfix it.
And that's the whole thing withpornography, I think, is that
you know, a person that isconfronted with the use or abuse
of pornography by their partnerhas a whole bunch of feelings
(21:18):
and they want to get to thebottom of it so they can stop it
from ever happening again.
And they think that goingthrough all that will somehow
reveal the answer, which isnever true.
Tony Overbay (21:29):
It's funny when you bring that up too, even just
like this, this neck surgery Ihad, I would love to.
I mean, I've had people say itmust be because of the running
and then, but my spinal surgeonsaid not necessarily that could
have even made it, helped.
You hang in there better, youknow, and I still, I still want
to know.
And then, and I think aboutthis as 20 year longitudinal
study on knees at a study atStanford, it shows that the more
(21:51):
you run, the better the bloodflow, the healthier you are.
But it's the running on thepitch or the camber of the road
or not swapping out your shoes,enough.
But we just want to.
We want to say no, it's becauseof this pornography, it's
because I'm not enough, it'sbecause you know, I don't work
out enough.
Jeff Jamison (22:09):
It's because and, but at some point attractive
enough.
Yeah, exactly, work out enough.
It's because, but at some pointMore attractive enough.
Tony Overbay (22:12):
Yeah, exactly All the this or that, yeah.
And so, even like with my neck,one of my friends reached out
and he said I just want you toknow, I don't think it's because
you're running.
And I had said, hey, you knowwhat?
I appreciate that, whatever itis, here we are, what do we do,
moving forward?
I know I'm not trying tocompare my spinal surgery with
the woman's feeling of betrayalI promise I'm not trying to do
(22:35):
that.
But I just love what you'resaying there, dr Jeff, and you
too, Trisha.
We do want to make sense of it,because our brain says if I can
make sense of it, my discomfortwill be gone, it'll never
happen again and we can move onand all is well.
And that isn't the way it works, unfortunately.
Trisha Jamison (22:45):
Excellent.
So I just want to give ourlisteners a couple key things
that they can do, and then wecan talk about these things.
And I think when I startworking with women in these
situations, I want them to focuson grounding themselves in
truth.
And what does that truth looklike?
And there's three things that Ifocus on.
(23:06):
One is name the emotion.
I feel betrayed, I feel angry,I feel numb.
Help them recognize how they'refeeling.
Two is affirm the reality.
They didn't cause this.
This is not because they're notenough.
This is not because they didsomething wrong and because,
(23:26):
just like you said, I thinkwomen have a propensity to take
the blame.
That's just kind of our natureoftentimes, and so it's an easy
thing to do.
But we have to anchor theirworth, and it's I am still
enough.
And that is number three.
So the more that you can focuson those three things name the
(23:48):
emotion, affirm your reality andanchor your worth that is going
to help ground you, so you canfocus on what's real, because
right now you're living in aworld of all these different
pieces don't make sense and it'sjust.
It's a real confusing place tobe.
Jeff Jamison (24:09):
And that can happen from any kind of trauma.
I mean it isn't justpornography trauma.
It can happen from any kind ofbetrayal trauma.
No matter how you're betrayed,you can feel that your whole
world is rocked, your whole ideaof what's true and what's not
true, and so all of those thingshappen in any of those.
(24:31):
So it applies at a ground levelfor all of that.
The other thing I wanted topoint out real quickly is that
pornography is pervasive in oursociety.
At this point you can get youknow it'd take you two seconds
to find pornography on theinternet if you wanted to find
it.
And so, if you're alive, you'veeither been exposed to or
(24:53):
you've used, in one form oranother, pornography, and so and
this goes for men and women Ithink that it's.
What is it, tony?
The statistics are like twothirds of men and one third of
all women become over users ofpornography as they get.
What's that stats?
Tony Overbay (25:13):
on.
I mean that it's all over theplace because so many people
don't disclose.
And then even within this andthis is what I think is part of
what even paula's questionsabout is that people will then
define it however they want,where people just say, okay, no,
I don't have a problem with it,and it can even be because it's
been since yesterday, and and Ibelieve that then the people
that are overcoming it.
(25:34):
In their mind, it's like everytime is the last time, and I'm
not saying that to be funny oranything, because I believe that
people genuinely believe thatno, I won't do it ever again,
because that helps themalleviate their own discomfort,
and they have to tell themselvesthat to make sense of things.
And then it's like they'll havea shelf life.
It could even be a couple ofdays a week where they're like,
no, I'm good until I'm not again.
(25:55):
Because I think one of thebiggest challenges is that what
do we do to get rid of ourdiscomfort?
A lot of times we will tellourselves no, I honestly, this
is it.
I know more and we feelresolute and we're going to do
it.
But the big difference is, whatdo I do when I wake up the next
day.
Do I start a meditation program?
Do I start doubling down on myspiritual practice?
Do I join a group?
Do I take a course?
(26:15):
Do I meet with the expert?
And usually we won't, becausethe very story we tell ourselves
is that, no, this is the lasttime.
Discomfort alleviated, wake upthe next day I feel good, and so
then I will never do it again.
Until I do so, yeah, right.
Trisha Jamison (26:30):
And next week we're going to talk about the
husband's perspective, so I wantto be able to focus on that,
because you have so much tooffer there, and so I don't want
to take it away.
Tony Overbay (26:44):
Well, let me go back into what Paul had said.
Let me ask you a question first.
I'll hang on a second.
So what I want to ask you, tony, is how do you help women who
feel invisible or replaced by afantasy world, and how do you
help them start claiming theirown voice and identity?
(27:06):
Therapist, who has some skillsin this area, because the fact
that, though, if the woman feelslike she has no voice, is
already prevalent if she'strying to find her voice, and so
then in that scenario, it'smost likely to have been in a
dynamic where, even if shestarts to express her voice, the
husband is very skilled in youknow, okay, no, you're right,
(27:28):
I'm a horrible person, or well,you look, I said I'm not going
to do it anymore.
There's a variety of buttonsthat can be pushed that get her
to then go back into this, theone down position.
So I think that she does needhelp, because she's probably
already been through this rodeoa few times of trying to express
herself about something thatshe really now has had enough of
or doesn't understand.
(27:48):
But he's also good atalleviating his shame, his
discomfort, his discomfort, andthen it just falls down into the
similar dynamics.
So I usually will get somebodycoming into my office that they
finally just say I don't, Idon't know what else to do, and
sometimes it is the very I can'tdo this anymore card that will
get him to finally say, okay,fine, like I 'll go to see
(28:08):
somebody.
So that's the part I just wantto normalize.
Is that the fact that shedoesn't have a voice and wants
to express it and something likethis has happened.
I would imagine it's not thefirst time where maybe something
like this has happened, but thefact and I and this is what I
like about our group wheresometimes I know, at least when
I'm doing the group call withwomen, by the time they get to
that call and they say how can Ido something, even though he
(28:32):
doesn't want to participate, andthen I've been framing this
okay.
So you got to the point whereyou were so frustrated that you
started looking for resourcesand you found a podcast and you
reached out to somebody there toget led into this private group
, to then be on a call everyother week to then ask the
question All of that I call themleading indicators that you
need additional help.
You need more help than justtrying to figure out how can I
(28:54):
say it different or how can Ishow up different, because
you've continued to do the workand then he's been able to get
out of that conversation or thatdiscomfort somehow.
So I think my biggest advicewould be you need more help, you
need support or yeah,definitely you don't know what
you don't know.
Jeff Jamison (29:13):
I love that phrase .
I mean.
I love especially when I get tohear some important things that
people have learned as they'vegone through the process of
understanding this thing.
I love how they go.
I just didn know X.
I just didn't know that if Iwere able to process it in this
(29:35):
way, I'd be free of it, yeah, orI'd be free of the guilt of
someone else's choices, right,right, and that's a big part
that I think women are havingsuch a hard time with is letting
go of their own guilt becauseof someone else's choices their
(29:56):
husband, boyfriend, whomever andletting go of that so that they
can feel free to make their ownchoices somebody hearing some
new information is going to sayyeah, but he's looking at other
women or yeah, but I, you know,and, and that's where it is
uncomfortable and how do we getrid of our discomfort and and
(30:17):
how?
Tony Overbay (30:17):
and we typically fall back into the familiar.
And that's when we say okay, no, it is okay.
This time it is different.
He said he's going to stop or,you know, he may have shut me
down, but at least I was able tosay something this time before.
And it is different.
And, man, I know Trisha I thinkwe've talked about this before
doing work with couples is thatthey will be motivated to come
(30:38):
in and then sometimes just evencoming in a time or two, they
they're better, they feel better.
But you know, but we know it'sa, it's the long game.
I mean, if it's better thatfast, all you did was you both
felt better, that you didsomething, but you still don't
even know what you don't knowabout the tools that you need to
heal or for that to help.
Trisha Jamison (30:56):
Yeah, Well, and I'd like to just kind of speak
into this as well.
So she talks about reclaimingher voice and her identity, and
the thing that I'd like to shareabout that is it takes time.
This isn't something that'sgoing to just.
You know, you find thisinformation and there's a
process that happens, and sooften you want an immediate
(31:18):
result.
It's not possible, right all thepain and all the anguish, to
get to a place that then you canthink you can function.
You can then be taught newtools, but it unfortunately
(31:38):
that's a real thing and a lot oftimes my clients are just like
I don't want to feel this pain,I don't want to be in the space.
Why do I?
You know I didn't do this, Ididn't cause this.
Why do I have to feel this?
That's not fair and it's notObviously.
It's not fair and it'sfrustrating, and I totally
appreciate where they're comingfrom.
(31:59):
But one of the things that wetalk about, too, is, once you
learn and grow into the personthat you will get to become, you
will have a voice, you willhave a different identity, you
will grow in that space that youcan't even imagine who you'll
become.
Jeff Jamison (32:20):
I think it's also important to point out that some
people, when they're goingthrough this and they're angry
and upset and mad, they makechoices that they regret.
Yeah, and upset and mad, theymake choices that they regret.
Yeah, okay, and so you know,they go and pull a Carrie
Underwood and key the truck andrip apart their you know, or
whatever it is that they arewhen they're being vindictive
(32:42):
regarding this, that they maylater regret because they may
have to serve jail time, theymay have to do other things that
make an understanding moredifficult, as they have to go
through more problems that theycreated themselves.
So hang in there.
Trisha Jamison (33:01):
Well, I think that that's rare.
I don't the people that I workwith.
Tony Overbay (33:05):
They're not vindictive like that, but I'm
sure that there may be some likethat but I think that they're
just so lost and they're justtrying to function oh, I totally
agree but I I hear you, dr jeff, because it's like I just did
an episode on reactive, ofreactive abuse or reactive
response, and it's almost one ofthe the more difficult things
where in the episode I talkabout the fact that when the
(33:27):
person does react, that then andthen I even changed the concept
of reactive abuse to reactiveresponse because I loved it A
couple of women in our groupwere talking about how I thought
hearing that it's you know,it's reactive abuse would be
liberating.
But then it's the verypathologically kind women that
are saying but that means I amabusing back, that my behavior
(33:49):
is abusive and I'm saying, right, but it's because he did the
thing and it was a beautifulconversation around.
But I don't want to be theperson that does that just
because he did, and that episodealone has gotten so much
feedback because it is areaction and it may not be your
best moment, but to giveyourself grace, because it is a
(34:11):
reaction to something that youdid not see coming at all, and
so I feel like giving somebodythe grace that you are going to
react.
You're a human and so, yeah,it's hard to know what that
reaction will be, and so I thinkthe biggest part is forgiving
yourself for that, if that iswhere you're at.
Trisha Jamison (34:29):
Well, and I think too along those lines, is
there's some amazing supportgroups out there and I've heard
that they really focus on angerand how to channel that anger in
a positive, constructive way.
That can be so much morehelpful because you know they
are angry, they are frustrated,they are so hurt and sometimes
(34:50):
that carries into, like you justsaid, behaviors that are not
going to be conducive to feelinggood later.
So OK, so she also askedsomething so jarring Was our
whole relationship a lie?
This is one of the hardestparts, because the human brain
wants black and white answers.
Was it real or fake?
(35:12):
Was it love or deception?
And yet real relationships, youknow they're really that simple
right.
So how do you help someone holdthe complexity of love and
betrayal in the same space?
Tony Overbay (35:28):
Well, the way you just said that is so good
Because this is is right back toone of my favorite concepts
that I think is not talked aboutenough Whole object relations.
Emotional immaturity is all ornothing, black or white, because
it's easier.
Emotional maturity is to beable to see a person, an entity,
a group you know I help peoplenavigate a faith journey, faith
(35:48):
crisis, a lot of religiousorganization.
You name it as a whole objectand that means I can really
appreciate some things, I canlove some things.
I can be frustrated about somethings, I might not even like
some things, and the ability andI love the way you put that,
trisha to hold all of that isemotional maturity, where we, we
(36:11):
just want certainty, so itdoesn't even mean I have to do
anything about it right now.
Part of the process is startingto recognize I don't like this,
I never have, but I can'tappreciate this and we need to
address this.
You know there's all thesedifferent things, because this
is probably one of the numberone questions is was their whole
relationship built off of liesand was, you know?
And whole object relations?
No, but, and I love that.
(36:32):
We'll talk about this when weget to the men's version of it,
but that to the, the personstruggles with the unhealthy
coping mechanisms.
They want to be as present asthey can in that moment, because
then that helps them feel likethey're not a horrible human
being for the things thatthey've turned to that they're
not proud about.
So sometimes they're trying tobe even more present in those
moments.
(36:52):
So I'm thinking about a couplethis week where this is going on
and she talked about but man,every time we would travel
together, it was so amazing.
And it's like, of course,because that's where he could
say man, when we travel togetherand it's just the two of us and
we're in this amazing place andwe're having all these new
novel experiences and we'respending more time together.
And she's like so was that notreal?
(37:13):
I was like that was real, thatwas there, you were in that
moment.
But then he would even comehome and he would say it was
almost like pulling back in.
You know, the plane lands andhere comes the shame there to
escort me off the plane and tosay, oh, really Like.
So you're now, look what you'regoing to do.
You're coming home and you'vegot this weight of this person
that you've never told her about.
(37:34):
And now you're, you know, youthink that you got away with
something on the vacation.
He was talking about hisinternal monologue and it was so
wild.
And what I loved is that sheimmediately wanted to then say,
oh, that must be hard and she'slike, I'm still mad and I was
like, of course, course, but youcan still be mad and you can
still have had a good time onthe vacation and you can still
want to see something change.
So, yeah, that is emotionalmaturity, but it's difficult
(37:58):
because our brains are going towant to keep going back to.
I need to make sense of it.
You need to help me understandit's.
Trisha Jamison (38:04):
it's so tough yeah, and I feel like we can.
They can honor the good withoutexcusing the harm, but it does,
Because we want to stay in thatforward motion.
That present state, becausethat's where you want to live is
(38:36):
what happened in trying tofigure things out, just what we
just talked about.
So, Jeff Paula mentioned herhusband was exposed to
pornography at the age of 10.
From a medical anddevelopmental standpoint, what
can that kind of early exposuredo to the brain and how might
that shape adult behavior,especially in relationships?
Jeff Jamison (38:58):
Well, this is a hard one, because when a person
is sexualized this is what thisis called when you are exposed
at an earlier age than probablya person should to the realities
of sexualization or sexuality,it can turn on those brain
centers earlier than you'dotherwise like to have that
(39:20):
happen and you're not able atthose younger ages to recognize
the right or the wrong of it atthat point and you're just
noticing that it is and how youfeel.
And a lot of times childrencan't figure's exciting or that
makes me feel weird or upset.
They feel those things but theydon't know how to name them.
(39:53):
And so what happens is thebrain turns towards well, I
enjoyed that experience becausethe curiosity was something.
And then it leads a person toseek out more of those
experiences.
If it was enjoyable, if it wassomething that made them unhappy
(40:16):
or scared them, they'reunlikely to go after more of
those experiences and it mayturn them off to sexuality later
.
So everybody has their ownreaction to it.
How a child, though at an earlyage, and children are getting
exposed to pornography andsexuality earlier and earlier,
(40:39):
and how it can manifest, is thatand in some boys, for instance,
and girls, frankly if they'resexualized early, then they can
act out those things on otherchildren or other people, or
they're more accepting of it ifit happens to them from a
trusted friend or relative.
So it becomes a non, not a oh,somebody did something bad to me
(41:03):
.
Or they don't even know whathappened until their late teens
or early 20s.
And then when they go, oh mygosh, I can't even believe I
allowed that to happen.
And then they feel shamebecause they didn't stop it back
then and they feel like thatthey were a bad child because
they didn't stand up forthemselves or they didn't tell
(41:25):
the mom or tell the dad this wasgoing on and it just leads to
an incredible amount of pain andsophisticated feelings that are
really hard to figure out oninto adulthood.
So how am I doing, tony?
Is that?
Tony Overbay (41:40):
what you thought.
Yeah, I know that's so wellsaid and it's so complicated,
because I like where you justsaid it, unfortunately it just
kind of is.
And then I've worked withenough people where then even
when they would try to saysomething to the parent, they
don't know how to express thatand then the parent doesn't want
to think that that could behappening.
So then it's like, oh, it's notthat bad or it's not that big
of a deal, and I'm not evensaying it as a the parent doing
(42:01):
anything wrong, because it justwe just don't know how to
communicate about this.
And I have to tell you there'sa, there's a documentary right
now on this and I listened to aninterview with her.
Her name's Lauren Greenfield,it's on Hulu and it's called
social studies and it is themost fascinating thing where and
she talks about how difficultit was to she got a bunch of
teens to allow her to haveaccess to their phones for the
(42:24):
span of about a year, and thenshe's filming a documentary and
so it would show you whensomebody's talking, like at a
school assembly and then ahandful of students, that then
what they're doing with theirphone at the time.
And she talked about one of thebiggest challenges is she's
trying to present thedocumentary just to just say
this just is like here'sinformation, do with it what you
(42:45):
will, but the information iskind of scary.
I mean it really is, and uh,and it really made me rethink.
All my kids are adults now, butI would have probably handled
things differently, even withwith phones at that time,
because they are exposed andeven exposure is.
We don't even understand whatthat means now, cause exposure
to me was, um, like, honestly, akid found a you know, finds the
(43:06):
playboy in the field, puts aboy's life magazine cover over
it One of the greatest thingsI've ever seen done by a 13 year
old boy and then we had accessto a magazine, you know, and now
they're talking about thesevideos and going on TikTok and
and Instagram and you name it.
And then just the algorithm, theway that plays out it just I
(43:28):
can sound like such an old man.
I'm about to say, hey, kids,get off my lawn right now, but
it's, the exposure is so real.
And then they're trying to makesense of it with their brain
and they're not talking to theparents and they're turning to
each other and it is normalized.
It's so wild.
So that documentary is it'sactually it's quite
uncomfortable, but it's reallyreally powerful as well.
Trisha Jamison (43:49):
Well, thank you, and I really think too that you
know this is such an importantpiece to understand.
So when pornography becomes acoping mechanism, at age 10
years old.
It becomes part of thatperson's neurological reward
system Just exactly what Jeffwas talking about, and I think
that this doesn't mean hedoesn't love the person or isn't
(44:11):
attracted.
It just means his system haslearned to, like you talked
about, soothe or in a waybypasses emotional intimacy
later in life and understanding.
That doesn't excuse thebehavior, whether it's anxious,
disorganized, avoidant.
Tony Overbay (44:48):
there's a movement by psychologists to call it
your attachment orientation,even because just to really
understand that the attachmentyou bring into your relationship
was formed so long ago that youknow.
This is where I believe we'rein relationships to learn about
ourselves.
And we need to do that throughthe relationship with another
person, because we're going intothat relationship not knowing
(45:09):
who we are and but then theimmature version of that is I
still need this person, I needto hide from this person and I
need them to think that I'mperfect and uh, and I need them
to make me feel better.
And if you think about that,that's a lot of to put on
another person and to notrecognize about yourself.
Trisha Jamison (45:27):
Right, right, yeah, thank you.
I think that's awesome thatwe're talking about this,
because it's hard.
This is hard subject and one ofthe things that I feel is, when
your trust is shattered, yourbody can feel like it doesn't
belong to you anymore, andthat's real trauma, and so you
want to be able to, like youmentioned earlier, to confide in
(45:51):
people that can be helpful andto allow yourself.
You know that support person isgoing to be so important, just
like we talked about Tony, oryou know, coach or whatever that
understands this.
But, jeff, I want to ask you,what do you say to women who
(46:12):
feel like their safety has beenviolated emotionally and
physically and doesn't even knowwhere to begin with the next
steps?
Would you be able to help themknow what those next steps are?
Or, tony, you can share that aswell.
Jeff Jamison (46:33):
Well, I think Tony's got more information on
that one, but I would definitelysteer a person towards getting
more grounding help so that theycan figure out what they don't
know and to be able toincorporate and understand and
empower themselves.
Tony Overbay (46:42):
I mean really, and I think you're right and I
don't want to oversimplify it,but I like I just love the theme
of today's episode is that itis going to be all the things
that you're going to think thatare the right things to do and
I'm not trying to say are thewrong things to do but I would
just, I would just bring nothelpful, they're not as the.
They're not as helpful and itkind of goes back to this sounds
(47:03):
.
It sounds so trite, but if ournatural reactions and responses
were the way to heal naturally,then we would all be okay by now
.
Trisha Jamison (47:12):
I think about this so often right Like shaming
myself or beating myself up.
Tony Overbay (47:16):
It actually helped .
I would be out of a job,because then we would all just
you know, oh, I beat myself upand now I feel better, and now I
don't ever do it again.
That isn't the way it works,and I really think about this so
often, just when Dr Jeff wassaying earlier, it really is
that we don't know what we don'tknow.
So what do I need to learn?
What do I not know?
And it goes back to thisDunning-Kruger effect, where the
(47:38):
more that you learn that youknow, the more you understand
that you don't know.
And that is emotional maturity,because the more emotionally
immature we are, then we know,we think we know a thing.
So it probably means that wecan make sense of these other
things.
And, yeah, this is the way thisall works and we do that long
enough.
And that implicit memory, orwhat it feels like to be us, is
(47:59):
that I think I have pretty muchan idea of how everything works.
And I hear this so often, drJeff, I'm sure you do Trisha,
where somebody is saying, yeah,why do I need to go to a
therapist?
I'm sure I already know whatthey're going to do.
They're just going to validateme.
They're going to tell me this,they're going to take my money.
Or why do I even need to go toa doctor?
He's just going to tell me to.
You know, just take a couple.
(48:24):
I'm going to a therapistbecause there are things I must
blind spots, I must not know.
Or and thank goodness, I wentto a doctor when I thought my
back was hurting.
Really I was thinking, oh well,I'll give it six months and
we'll see.
And, as we were talking off theair here, if I would have done
that I'd have even more nervedamage.
So maybe the relationshipdamage go get help.
(48:44):
You do not know what you don'tknow, and that's okay and bless
your heart.
And we get to this point.
And now it's about what do youdo?
Because this is the time toheal, it really is moving
forward.
Trisha Jamison (48:54):
Yeah, that's so good.
Thank you both of you.
Tony, paula didn't hear thisfrom her husband.
She discovered it.
There's a rupture that happenswith betrayal, but when
discovery replaces disclosure,that rupture becomes
disorientation.
Can you speak to the differencebetween discovery and
(49:15):
disclosure and how that impactsthe healing process?
Tony Overbay (49:19):
You know what, and I'm not going to say I'm going
to make it sound like I'm goingto skirt this and want to hear
your thoughts because mine arejust.
I feel like in the world I workin, long ago I kind of I felt
like I let go of the if somebodyfound out, versus they were
told, because either way, evenwhen somebody told the other
person, that's usually beenbecause they're finally they've
(49:40):
had enough and they're trying toalleviate their guilt or
discomfort, because they'refinally they've had enough and
they're trying to alleviatetheir guilt or discomfort, and
it still is like dropping a bombon their partner.
Or if their partner finds out,then it's this like devastation,
but then from that pointforward it really does.
It's kind of the same fromwhere I've been working, because
now the person that receivesthe information or found out the
(50:03):
information on their own, it'slike let the games begin Now I
still wait why?
And I can't believe you, youknow, either you didn't tell me
or I can't even believe you toldme, you know, and it's.
It's so wild because I think itall falls back into the trying
to make sense of and and I worrythat this will sound dismissive
, or, but I hope you can kind ofsee where I'm going with this.
Is that it's I kind of go backto why didn't he tell me?
(50:25):
Well, because he didn't and hemaybe he would have had enough
external pressure eventuallyhappened, but you found it
sooner than he told you, or youknow, he told me.
Sometimes the person even tellsyou to alleviate their
discomfort and almost to ask forpermission.
And this is where I can have.
It can even be a challenge attimes.
I feel like I'm going on atangent.
(50:46):
But I even struggle sometimeswith the concept of confession,
because sometimes somebody Ijust feel so bad I need to tell
her, so I feel better and now Ijust put it on her.
Now it's on you.
I told you and so now you'regetting mad at me.
At least I told you, and that'sthe energy that can come into
the office.
So I'm not trying to dismissthat, but whether one finds it
(51:10):
or it is told to, them.
Trisha Jamison (51:12):
the aftershock is fairly similar.
Tony Overbay (51:13):
Okay, but I know that I can sound dismissive.
Trisha Jamison (51:15):
I will admit that I think that that's kind of
a trust thing, because they'retrusting each other and I think
that that becomes such a trustthing.
But what I've seen is thatwomen of discovery feel crazy.
They start questioning not justthe relationship but actually
their own instincts.
It's kind of like how come Ididn't see this, how come I
didn't feel that there wassomething off or wrong?
(51:37):
And what I just like to say isthey're not crazy.
You're experiencing betrayaltrauma, and that's why it's
important to just even like dosimple things, like write things
down, just so you canappreciate the process.
You want to get things out ofyour brain and out of your body
so you can start the healingprocess, and just by writing
(51:59):
things out, verbalizing things,that really is helpful.
You want to maybe even setboundaries, even temporary ones,
to reclaim your space and speakyour truth to again a therapist
or a coach or a safe friend,and I think that those pieces
are going to be really importantmoving forward.
But right now it's like yourlife is completely flipped
(52:23):
upside down.
It is so shattered, just likeshe says she has no idea where
to start, where to begin, andit's just like you just got to
live each day and just simplifyyour life, do anything you can
to just bring down the loads,because your brain is working so
hard to try to process what iseven happening and you're in
(52:44):
such a high emotional state thatyou don't even know what you
don't want or what you do want.
Like she said, she doesn't knowshe wants to keep that
relationship alive or you knowhow she can even trust, how can
she rebuild again.
You know, I think that there'sjust so much compassion and
grace that a person needs togive themselves in the situation
(53:04):
and there's so many highexpectations that they don't
feel like they can do that.
They have to show up big, theyhave to be there for their
little kids.
They have to, they have topretend too, and if there's
anything that I'd share is don'tpretend this is real, and the
more that you can take off themask because he's been wearing a
(53:24):
mask, you don't want to wear amask too.
You want to just be real, beraw, allow yourself to be
vulnerable because you're inthat state, and the more that
you can just focus on healingyou, and whether the
relationship continues or youknow, he's got to go on his own
(53:48):
healing journey and we're goingto talk about that next week,
but the most imperative thing isyou healing you and you focus
on what do I need right now?
What does my body need?
Do I need nourishment?
Do I need movement?
Do I need a friend?
Do I need someone to take careof my children?
Tony Overbay (54:01):
Sleep.
Trisha Jamison (54:01):
What do you need ?
Well, sleep is most of the time, doesn't happen because, you're
afraid to sleep because you'rein this fight or flight and it's
really hard.
Jeff Jamison (54:10):
Your nervous system is not going to be
relaxed, but it doesn't mean youdon't need it.
Trisha Jamison (54:13):
Yeah, you do need sleep.
I'm just saying that the morethat you can focus on safety,
the more that you can focus onwhere you're at.
Do a body scan.
Where are you feeling that pain?
You're at, do a body scan.
Where are you feeling that pain.
Hone in on some of these issuesand places that feel so painful
and dysregulated.
You will be able to start theprocess.
(54:36):
So, like I said, this is aprocess.
This takes time and it's notgoing to be something that
you're going to be able to doquickly, overnight, even the
next week, the next month, andtrust.
One of the biggest things thatI always hear is you know, how
can I trust him again?
And I don't know if this camefrom you, tony, or who, but it
(54:56):
was one of the things that Ialways share with them is it's
not your job to trust them.
They have to show you that theycan be trusted, and so they get
to take that off of their plate.
I think that that's the biggesthang up that they have is how
can I trust again?
Well, guess what you don't haveto.
They get to prove that to you.
Tony Overbay (55:17):
Okay, and I love it because, yeah, what I always
say, that is, you have to acceptthe fact that you may never
trust them again.
Because then, with thatacceptance, then I'm not always
trying to determine can I trustthis, can I not trust this?
Is this?
Because it's going to take timeand it's going to take, I say,
emotional consistency, it'sgoing to take stability, it's
going to take transparency, it'sgoing to take a lot of things
(55:38):
to rebuild.
So I first have to accept thefact I may never trust him again
and I tell the guy like, hey,you have to accept that too,
because if not the guy's goingto put off this energy of look,
I told you this, now you need totrust me.
It's like oh no, you need to doit because it's the right thing
to do.
It has to be outcome,independent and over time.
That'll start to build thetrust.
And and then if somebody says,well, how long, when will I know
(55:58):
, I don't know start the journey, because eventually you will
feel the, the guy will start tofeel that what he didn't know,
he didn't know.
Oh, this isn't as scary as Ithink it is being this open or
vulnerable or consistent, andthen the wife will start to
recognize I'm going to test forsafety.
We can talk about this nextweek too, because I tell the guy
oh, of course she's now goingto test for safety and that's
(56:20):
your job to provide thatemotional safety, emotional
consistency, emotional stabilityand then be grateful that she
is still there testing forsafety, because that means that
you have a chance to improveyourself and show her I get it.
This is the thing that changed.
So I really I love that part.
Trisha Jamison (56:36):
Yeah, and I think that this is one of the
most common places people orwomen get stuck because they're
carrying so much emotionalweight and that load that we
were just talking about.
But life doesn't stop.
The dishes still need to bedone, the kids still need to eat
dinner.
It's so imperative to bringthem back to regulation, not
(56:57):
perfection, and, like we talkedabout, there's certain things
that you can do.
Breathing Breathing is soimportant and I love what's
called the box breathing andit's you inhale for four counts,
you hold for four counts, youexhale for four counts and then
(57:18):
you hold again for four counts.
You do that six or seven times.
That starts to regulate yournervous system.
And it really really makes adifference when you pause for 30
seconds and you just put yourhand on your heart and you
continue to breathe.
That reminds yourself you areokay, you are worthy, you are
important.
That just helps you feel likeyou're inside your body and
(57:39):
because sometimes I've heardthat you know you feel so
disoriented you don't even feellike you're part of your body.
So that's going to be a reallyimportant piece.
And then again, just scanningyour body what do you need?
Do you need stillness?
Do you need movement.
Do you need nourishment?
What is it that you need?
Jeff Jamison (58:00):
and it's also going to take some trial and
error to figure out when you dothat Exactly.
And to be able to say, okay, Ithink I need movement.
Well, that I didn't needbecause, you know, or I, I need
to, I need to eat.
But sometimes the reaction isyou need to eat too much and so,
and so you have to.
Just, it takes some trial anderror.
Trisha Jamison (58:20):
Yep, and I think just doing everything you can
to stay present.
Sometimes a cold shower,holding ice cubes, makes you
feel like you're in a presentstate, going outside to the
sunshine.
There's just something aboutincorporating your five senses,
what you see.
You know five things.
(58:41):
You see and hear and you knowit's going to be just learning
some new techniques here.
And you know it's going to bejust learning some new
techniques and, just like Jeffsaid, it's not going to be.
You know you may hear a lot ofdifferent things and you need to
find what works for you, butthe thing that I just really
want to emphasize this again isa process and it takes time and
you have there's a healingjourney, and the more that you
(59:03):
allow yourself to go on thathealing journey and not try to
mask things, you'll be able tomove through it in a way that
will be conducive andcomfortable for each individual
person.
Jeff Jamison (59:14):
Well said yeah.
Trisha Jamison (59:16):
Do any of you have any last minute thoughts
that you'd like to share withour listeners?
Tony Overbay (59:21):
Tony, tony, I mean , I just I think that there was.
I'm so grateful we had thisepisode and for Paula's question
and I can't wait to get to nextweek.
But I think, if anything, whenTrisha we were saying that I
just and what Dr Jeff said in mymind I constantly have this
concept of it's your ownindividualized, customized
treatment plan, so doing you'regoing to figure out what does
work, what doesn't work, butjust know that any of it, that
(59:43):
you're not doing any of it wrong, first time you've ever been
you in this situation, it'shappening, so check that out.
It's like this is your chance aswell to get rid of your own
personal shame or guilt.
So you're, and nobody wantsthis to happen.
I know that and I know we'veall mentioned this a time or two
on this podcast, which I love.
Trisha Jamison (01:00:00):
That's why they hide it.
Tony Overbay (01:00:01):
Yeah, right, but then it's like it's such an odd
spot to be in where people say Iwish none of this would have
ever happened, but if they canembrace the moment and learn new
tools, this is what helpspeople grow to become better
themselves and can even improvethe relationship, which is wild
to think right now.
I promise that is a wildconcept, but it can be
(01:00:22):
potentially a thing.
Jeff Jamison (01:00:24):
My last thing is two things.
Number one give yourself graceand allow for the you not
knowing what to do next, andthat it's okay that you don't.
And then the last one, asTrisha and Tony, you both have
said, is time.
This is an incredible blessingto have time to let things work
(01:00:46):
through.
Sometimes it seems like youjust can't even go on another
step, but giving yourself timeand saying another day will
happen, the next day may be alittle better, and giving
yourself time will help so much.
Tony Overbay (01:01:02):
Well said.
Trisha Jamison (01:01:03):
Thank you both, and I want to pause and speak
directly to Paula and to anyoneelse listening who might feel
like this story could be theirown.
This is not your fault.
This isn't about you being lessthan unlovable or not enough.
His pornography issues didn'tstart with you and while his
(01:01:23):
choices carry real consequences,they are not a reflection of
your worth.
You are not broken and you arenot to blame and, most
importantly, you are not alone.
Healing takes time, just likewe've all been talking about.
The relationship may or may notsurvive, but you will and you
can start that healing today.
(01:01:45):
There is a lot of helpavailable, and if this story
resonated with you and if youand your spouse are navigating
emotional disconnection or feellike your marriage is hanging on
by a thread, I want to inviteyou into a deeper journey.
My eight-month Healing Heartsprogram is for couples who feel
like giving up but want one lasthonest, guided path forward.
(01:02:09):
If trust has been broken, ifconnection is lost, I want you
to know that there is a place tobegin.
This is that beginning, and ifthis is something that resonates
with you, please email me attrishajamisoncoaching@ gmailcom
and let's have a conversation.
Please email me attrishajamisoncoaching@gmailcom
and let's have a conversation.
And if this episode touchedyour heart or made you think of
(01:02:29):
someone you care about, pleaseshare it with them.
We grow this community throughconnection, and your stories,
your questions and your feedbackdeeply matter to us.
And if you haven't already,please hit subscribe and leave
us a review.
It helps more than you willever know.
And don't forget to send inyour brain questions.
Chances are, if it's on yourheart, someone else needs to
(01:02:53):
hear it too.
And next week we'll hear Keith'sstory.
Keith is a husband who's beenbattling a hidden struggle and
deep secret with pornography foryears and after seeing the
impact it's had on his marriage,he's finally ready to speak out
.
His question is raw, honest andincredibly brave.
He's not excusing his choices,but he's trying to understand
(01:03:15):
where they began and how tobreak the cycle.
What happens when a man iswilling to look inward, own his
story and start doing the work?
We hope you'll join us for thenext conversation, because it's
one that could change the way wetalk about shame, healing and
hope from the other side ofbetrayal.
So we're here, we're listeningand we're honored to be part of
(01:03:38):
your healing journey.
We'll see you next time on theQ&A Files.
Goodbye everybody.
Thanks everybody.
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&AFiles, delighted to share
today's gems of wisdom with you.
Your questions light up ourshow, fueling the engaging
dialogues that make ourcommunity extra special.
Keep sending your questions totrishajamesoncoaching@ gmail.
com.
Your curiosity is our compass.
(01:04:01):
Please hit, subscribe, spreadthe word and let's grow the
circle of insight and communitytogether.
I'm Trisha Jamison, signing off.
Stay curious, keep thriving andkeep smiling, and I'll catch
you on the next episode.
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