May 26, 2025 • 54 mins
What happens when pornography addiction shatters trust in a marriage? This powerful part two of a three episode series begins with Keith's raw confession—a 36-year-old husband and father whose pornography habit, which began at age 13, was discovered by his wife on their shared tablet. The pain and shame of that moment sparked profound questions about healing, redemption, and rebuilding trust.
Our expert panel delves into the neurological underpinnings of pornography use, explaining the Coolidge Effect and how the brain's dopamine system gets hijacked through novelty-seeking. We explore why traditional approaches of shame and self-loathing actually reinforce problematic behaviors rather than resolving them. This isn't just about stopping a behavior—it's about understanding the adaptive patterns that began in childhood and learning to respond to emotional needs in healthier ways.
For partners like Keith's wife who find themselves asking "Why wasn't I enough?", we offer compassionate insight into why pornography use rarely has anything to do with the spouse's attractiveness or sexual satisfaction. Instead, it often indicates deeper emotional regulation challenges that predate the relationship entirely. Both the person struggling with pornography and their hurt partner need guidance, understanding, and practical strategies to move forward.
The conversation weaves between scientific understanding and heartfelt wisdom, offering practical tools like the HALT method (recognizing when you're Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired), the vital importance of the "pause" before acting on urges, and why seeking specialized help makes all the difference. We distinguish between guilt (which can motivate change) and shame (which keeps people stuck), while emphasizing that healing begins with separating actions from identity.
Whether you're struggling with pornography yourself, supporting someone who is, or trying to rebuild trust after discovery, this episode offers both compassion and clarity for the journey ahead. Stay tuned for part two, where we'll address Keith's specific questions about breaking free, rebuilding trust, and finding forgiveness in himself and his relationship.
If you or someone you love is struggling with pornography, consider Tony's "Path Back" program. www.thepathback.org
If you have a burning question for us, please send it to: trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com! We would love hear what you have to say!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Trisha Jamison (00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the
ultimate health and wellnessplayground.
I'm your host, Trisha Jamison,a board-certified functional
nutritionist and lifestylepractitioner, ready to lead you
through a world of healthdiscoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry ofdisease prevention to nutrition
, exercise, mental health andbuilding strong relationships,
all spiced with diverseperspectives.
(00:29):
It's not just a podcast, it's acelebration of health, packed
with insights and a twist of fun.
Welcome aboard the Q&A Files,where your questions ignite our
vibrant discussions and lead toa brighter you.
Welcome, awesome listeners, toanother soul-stirring episode of
the Q&A Files.
I'm your host, Trisha Jamison,a functional nutritionist and
lifestyle practitioner and alife coach, here to walk you
(00:53):
through life's toughestquestions and brightest hopes.
I'm joined by my two incredibleco-hosts, dr Jeff Jamison, a
board-certified family physicianwhose science-meets meets
compassion approach alwaysinspires, and Tony Overbay, a
licensed marriage and familytherapist with a gift for
cutting straight to the truth.
So, Jeff and Tony, I appreciateyour wisdom and knowledge.
(01:14):
It's always a pleasure to haveyou both here with me today.
Jeff Jamison (01:17):
Cutting straight to the truth.
Comes, tony, right now.
Tony Overbay (01:19):
Okay, okay, but what I'm doing is to use a very,
very big word there.
Trisha, did you saysoul-stering?
Trisha Jamison (01:25):
I'm Googling this Soul-stering Yep.
Tony Overbay (01:27):
Soul-stering.
Okay, I'm on board.
All right, I was looking up.
Trisha Jamison (01:31):
What did you think?
I said?
Tony Overbay (01:32):
I was Googling soul-stering.
Trisha Jami (01:34):
S-O-L-S-T-E-R-I-N-G .
Tony Overbay (01:45):
Well, I'm down with that.
I'm okay with that.
I will stir a soul or two.
We're working on enunciationnext.
Okay.
Jeff Jamison (01:48):
Okay, okay, okay.
Trisha Jamison (01:52):
So let's start with celebrations.
Who's going to go first?
Jeff walked in and he had thebiggest grin on his face.
What did you just do thismorning?
Jeff Jamison (02:01):
Oh, I went flying this morning and it's a
beautiful, beautiful day and I'mlearning to fly a tail wheel
airplane and that is really funit.
It makes me a better pilot,keeps my rudder control much
more in the groove, if you will,it's a it's a great learning
experience.
So I had a great time just thismorning for that.
Trisha Jamison (02:22):
Awesome, fantastic, tony.
Okay, I have one, I do.
Tony Overbay (02:27):
I do.
I was going to say one of themis just that I'm back in
California, I travel.
I was traveling every otherweek back up to my practice here
, so I got to hang out with myson and his girlfriend and I'll
go see my parents.
But it's wild that I'm thatmany weeks away for our post,
this surgery.
That at one point seemed so faraway and anyway.
But I just this is meshamelessly promoting my other
podcast because I have solvedall things.
(02:50):
Mental health now, finally, Idid, I figured it out.
Yeah, it's kind of like mappingthe genome or whatever that
like project.
And we talk about it here whereI like saying everybody's
emotionally mature and I saythat.
And it mainly comes into playwhen people are calling people
narcissists.
And then I always like to makethat point narcissistic
personality disorder prettysmall percentage, what study you
(03:12):
look at?
Two to four or 5%.
But then I maintain but we'reall emotionally immature, so to
me that means a ton.
But I just released an episodefiguring it all out and I
realized that when I say it andI'm wanting everybody else to
just go, oh my gosh, yeah, I soget it.
But usually they're like okay,cool, so I'm not a narcissist.
And then, uh, I'm saying that'swhere it goes.
Jeff Jamison (03:32):
It stops, that's where it goes yeah, and so then.
Tony Overbay (03:34):
but I just I just laid out one I've worked on for
a long time and it just I gointo the what the real examples
look like and how our adaptivestrategies as kids, then they're
maladaptive when we becomeadults and that is the basis of
immaturity.
We're taking our little kidstuff and then we're carrying it
around in our big kid bodiesand into us.
It makes sense, but it got ushere.
(03:54):
So thank you, inner child, buttime to let the big kids take
over.
So I would encourage anybody togo listen to that episode.
Jeff Jamison (04:00):
Well, which podcast is it?
Tony Overbay (04:02):
So I threw it on both actually Waking.
Up the Narcissism and theVirtual Couch.
Yeah, oh, very good, because itis.
Trisha Jamison (04:08):
It's interesting because I actually listened to
it last night and the thing thatI found fascinating that's the
very thing that I'm working onin one of my modules is exactly
what you shared, so I thought weare definitely got these vibes
going on.
Tony Overbay (04:21):
So I was pretty excited about that too.
Trisha Jamison (04:26):
So it will be good.
So I'm celebrating this bluesky and it's supposed to be 71
degrees here today in Spokane,and it is an absolute lovely day
with the blossoms going crazyand I'm really excited to see
lilacs coming on.
We're the lilac city.
I love lilacs, my favoriteflower, so it's a gorgeous day
here.
Tony Overbay (04:44):
Now, dr Jeff and I , I train my male clients that
when our wives mention flowersand sunsets, we go oh man,
that's yeah, I love that.
That sounds great, oh howromantic, that sounds romantic.
Trisha Jamison (04:57):
Well done Okay okay, gentlemen, if we could
just get some.
Jeff Jamison (05:01):
If we could just have a beach to walk hand in
hand on the beach.
Trisha Jamison (05:04):
I'm good with that.
Yeah, let's go to a beach,honey.
Jeff Jamison (05:08):
Oh, I think we will, I think we will.
Trisha Jamison (05:11):
All right, thank you.
Now let's ease into somethingtender and real.
Today we're stepping into aspace that's very complex and
full of courage.
So last week we shared Paula'sstory a wife navigating the
heartbreak of discovering herhusband's hidden struggle with
pornography.
Her pain and questions abouttrust and worth struck a chord
(05:35):
with so many of you.
Now we're turning the lens toKeith, a man who's grappling
with his own side of this issue.
Keith's question came inrecently and it isn't tied to
Paula's story.
They're not a couple, but itechoes the same theme how
pornography can fracture trustand intimacy and what it takes
(05:56):
to heal.
Now, keith's vulnerability anddesire to change make this
conversation so powerful, solet's dive into his story with
open hearts.
Keith writes I'm 36, married tomy wife for 12 years and we
have two amazing kids, eight and10.
She's my rock, my home, my love,my life, but I've been hiding a
(06:18):
secret that's tearing me apart.
It started when I was 13 yearsold, when I stumbled across
pornography online one restlessnight.
What felt like innocentcuriosity grew into a habit I
couldn't shake.
Over time, it pulled me intodarker places.
I never imagined going Explicitchats, paid subscriptions that
(06:39):
led me into things that I nevercould imagine doing either.
I can't believe that was evenme.
I'm horrified at who I'vebecome.
Every time I swear I'll stop, Ifall back, deleting browser
histories, installing blockers,praying for strength, only to
end up in the same dark place.
A month ago my wife found out.
(07:01):
She saw my search history onour share tablet and the pain in
her eyes was like I had juststabbed her.
She didn't yell, she just criedquietly and asked why wasn't I
enough?
I had no words.
The shame is crushing.
I feel like a monster, a fraudwho's betrayed the woman I
cherish and the family we'vebuilt together.
(07:22):
I'm terrified.
I've destroyed our marriage andscarred our kids forever.
My heart aches knowing I'vemade her question her worth,
when she's everything to me.
I've tried so hard to stop.
I've gone weeks, even months,like I mentioned, using blockers
, praying, confessing to afriend, but stress or
disconnection always drags meback.
I'm living a double life thehusband and dad who adores his
(07:45):
family and the stranger Idespise and absolutely hate.
I don't want to be this manlying and hiding.
I want to be the husband andfather they deserve, but I'm
scared.
I'm too far gone.
Why can't I break free?
How do I rebuild my wife'strust when I'm drowning in guilt
?
How do I forgive myself forshattering her heart?
(08:06):
I'm begging for a way out.
Please help me.
That's heavy.
So Keith's story is so raw andheavy his shame, his shock and
how far he's fallen, his deeplove for his wife and kids and
his desperate hope to change.
(08:26):
So his questions why can't hebreak free, how to rebuild trust
and how to forgive himself area heartfelt cry for a path
forward.
So I'm so grateful we have Tonyand Dr Jeff here with us today.
Tony, you've guided many menthrough struggles like Keith's,
and your program, what is calledPathback, that's right.
Tony Overbay (08:50):
Thank you, pathbackrecoverycom.
I believe, or reach out to me.
Trisha Jamison (08:54):
And it's designed to help men caught in
the cycle to find their way out.
So, before we dive into Keith'squestions, can you share a
little bit about the Pathbackand how?
Tony Overbay (09:17):
it could support someone like Keith.
The best part of it, because Ijust think that it is about
connection with other guys,which maybe we'll find some time
to get to that today.
But what I address in the pathback is I really believe that I
look at people turning topornography as an unhealthy
coping mechanism.
We throw around the term sexaddict or pornography addict a
(09:38):
lot, but there actually is not adiagnosis of pornography
addiction.
You could be looking at impulsecontrol disorder or compulsive
behaviors, but most of thepeople that I find that are
saying that they are a pornaddict.
They're not.
It's something they turn to asa coping mechanism.
And I have identified five areasthat I think are when people
(09:59):
primarily turn to unhealthycoping mechanisms, whether it's
drinking, gambling, sex, porn.
It could be working, it couldbe you name it and it's when
they don't feel connected intheir marriage or they don't
feel like a good parent, whenthey're not connected in their
faith, their health or theircareer.
And so the path back there areagain.
There are modules, there arethings to do, but I think in the
calls I like to make the jokethat we don't talk about
(10:21):
pornography very often becausereally there's a, and I don't
want to jump ahead, but you needto know that you're okay.
You're a human going throughlife for the first time and this
happened and I just I willmaintain that I wrote down a lot
of things that he said.
I'm horrified who I've become.
You know that I'm a monster.
I'm terrified, I'm scaredDouble life I'm drugged back.
(10:43):
I mean that sounds so.
We all, I mean we took a breathwhen you were done reading that
and my heart goes out for himbecause and it's ironic this
episode I was talking aboutearlier that I feel like I
jokingly solved everything, isthat is our little kid version
of us showing up as an adultsaying I need to beat myself up
in order to get help or tochange.
And if that was the recipe, wewould not need Pathback, we
(11:07):
would not need your course, mycourses, we wouldn't need
therapists or coaches, becausewe're really good at beating
ourselves up and so far that is.
It doesn't work.
Jeff Jamison (11:16):
Yeah, and personal shame, just never helped anyone
.
No, you know, guilt canmotivate.
Tony Overbay (11:23):
Yeah.
Jeff Jamison (11:23):
Okay, and I think, I think that if you feel guilt
and you're like I, just you knowthis is something I need to do
different.
I need to quit smoking, I needto stop pornography, I need to
quit drinking, and this is I.
I feel guilt about those thingsand it motivates you to change.
That's great.
Tony Overbay (11:41):
Yeah.
Jeff Jamison (11:42):
However, shame, in my opinion, is where it does
the opposite.
It just makes you feel morestuck, it makes you feel more
unwell and it makes you feellike you can't progress, and it
actually makes you dive deeperinto whatever you're having
trouble with the part where andI have people often say that
(12:06):
they and I'm grateful whensomebody is very open and
vulnerable that they don't trulyunderstand the difference
between guilt and shame.
Tony Overbay (12:08):
And yeah, guilt is I feel bad, shame is I am bad.
And if we go back to what Trishand I are talking about with
the emotional immaturity, thatthat was a survival mechanism as
a kid, it was an adaptation toa situation that we were going
through.
So when we would eventually say, man, I am just so bad, that
(12:29):
was most likely a time where aparent then maybe would come
around and say, hey, you're okay, everything's going to be okay.
And so then we take thatadaptation because it worked for
our little child and we bringit into adulthood and our big
bodies and we still think thatthat's going to work.
So that's where this episodeI'm talking about that I did on
my podcast was giving yourselfgrace, thanking the inner child
(12:51):
that it got us where we are.
You are indeed alive and sothank you.
That was an adaptation.
Now it's maladaptive, now it'sin the way, so it's time to
again pass the baton.
Thank you, inner child.
But now that is not the righttool, because when we go to
shame, then we're doing that Alot of internal as an adult, and
(13:11):
so then there isn't anybodythere that's going to say it's
okay, especially if you feellike you have hurt somebody and
somebody has been blindsided andthey are reacting.
So that's where I go back to.
You have to know you're okay.
This is where you have toreparent, you have to heal your
inner child and that has to.
I would say unfortunately, butno, fortunately that will come
(13:32):
from you.
So that's why this has happened.
He feels the way he feels andright now, the more he beats
himself up, it's almost selfish.
I think we've talked here.
I did an episode a while agowhere I said the selfishness of
shame which I feel like issaying, or I think it's somebody
who's down on the ground andI'm saying, hey, let me kick you
.
You know, while you feel someshame also, you're being pretty
selfish.
So I realized that's a prettytough concept, right, but if
(13:53):
somebody, if he's like I justfeel so bad now that I know what
I've done to my wife and Ican't believe it, it's okay, I'm
okay, yeah, right, it's for herto rescue him, exactly, yeah,
which is not ideal right now.
Which?
Jeff Jamison (14:08):
then turns all the focus off of the issues and
onto your poor, poor me position, yep.
Trisha Jamison (14:16):
And that rescuing loop is so real.
I appreciate, though, howpeople get into this shame trap,
and I think it's reallyimperative, just like you said
to, but you know, whensomebody's in the shame cycle,
it's really hard for them tostart thinking for sure
cognitively and going, okay,well, what's creating the shame?
(14:37):
How do I go back and starthealing my inner child?
So what is the first step youcan think of in somebody in that
state of mind that they can dobecause they're in fight or
flight, they're in this hypermode?
Tony Overbay (14:51):
I was thinking of you and Critter Brain.
Trisha Jamison (14:52):
Critter Brain.
They're in Critter Brain, yes.
Tony Overbay (14:54):
Yeah.
So I think it's such a goodquestion because my first
recommendation is something thatwill literally never happen,
you know.
So maybe it's until somebodyfigures out a time machine, but
I just want to say it's a don't,don't do that.
Basically, it basically is thatokay, I want to jokingly say,
richie, take that out.
But no, that was very real.
(15:14):
But it's like I wish everybodycould hear proactively that if
you ever get caught, or if youwere ever discovered, or if you
ever just decide you need toconfess, hold up.
How about you talk to aprofessional therapist or a
coach?
Because a lot of times, if theperson gets caught, what happens
?
They feel horrible.
And now, what do I do to getrid of that discomfort?
I'm gonna put it right backover on you, whether I know it
(15:36):
or not.
I mean, shame is me saying Ineed you to manage my emotions
right now because I can't managemy own, and so the person needs
to, as quickly as they can,seek help from an outside source
who knows this area.
Because, yeah, they're going tohave to process a lot, and this
is going to sound maybe alittle bit bad of me, but having
done this for a long time andI'm pretty picky and choosy
(15:57):
about who I work with.
Sometimes I'll get somebody newand it breaks my heart.
It also is frustrating to thinkof how much work is ahead when
they are coming into you andthey're convinced they are
horrible, they are bad Cause.
It's almost like now they'recoming into you because they
need somebody to just say yeah,you are really bad, you know
(16:18):
yeah, and it's like not notgoing to happen, or because it's
like no, I tell me how you'refeeling, because you're human
and this is the first timeyou're going through life as you
and this has happened andthere's some acceptance, and
let's learn how to manage myemotions.
Change my relationship with myemotions.
Don't try to shove them down,don't try to push them away.
Uh, don't try to hand them overto somebody else to manage.
(16:38):
So I just think there's so muchthere's some people don't get
help right away that they'retrying to co-regulate each other
, and that's a mess.
Jeff Jamison (16:46):
And again, the reason for doing that is so that
you don't verbally vomit onyour loved ones, yeah, and so
that you can process some ofthat beforehand, because there's
a deep feeling of I need toconfess this to whoever I harmed
, which is a really importantthing at some point.
Trisha Jamison (17:03):
But you have to know how to deal with your own
emotions first yeah, exactly,you know, and just like he's
talking about, you know shamecan feel like he's defined by
his worst choices yeah, rightand that is where we have to
understand that it's his lovefor his family.
He's showing that he cares, soit's focusing on who he is at
(17:28):
his core, not who he is by hischoices.
Tony Overbay (17:33):
I like that.
Can I say thank you for thatBecause I think the part I think
about I love your guys' take onthis.
But he said double life andI've even been pretty dramatic
and said, man, the double livesthat people lead with addiction
and it's like are unhealthycoping mechanisms.
And now I have such a differentunderstanding of that is this
whole concept of whole objectrelations.
(17:54):
It's when they are present withtheir kids.
They are present with theirkids when they are acting out.
They are acting out whenthey're having good moments with
their spouse.
They're having good momentswith their spouse.
It's easy to now jump into theall or nothing black or white.
It was, oh my gosh, I was afraud.
No, you were a good dad whenyou were a good dad and you were
serving well in a churchposition, when you were and you
(18:16):
were having really goodconnection with your spouse.
It's actually those are thethings that make it more
difficult, because then onebeats themselves up and says,
well then, why am I doing this?
Versus check this out, I can behere, I do feel like a good dad
and I do this because I have tobe able to step back and notice
.
This is how I show up in thesedifferent situations because
that's the data we need and it'sabsent of the I'm doing it
(18:38):
wrong.
What's wrong with me?
I'm a monster, you know.
So the double life, oh, ofcourse, like there's an
acceptance there, might evenhave a triple life, I don't even
know.
I don't know how many lives onecould fit in there.
But that's the part wherenotice that, accept it and now
we can work with it.
And that's where that episodewhere I've basically figured out
(19:17):
all of life that I'm talkingabout earlier is.
It's wild when you can startworking these ways of oh, I do
go back to my all or nothing,black or white thinking.
That is immature.
Or there's immaturity and Ineed you to manage my emotions,
saying you know, okay, so thisis obviously means that it's
about me.
I wasn't enough, I mean I, I,and that's that's the normal
response, a hundred percent.
But it's like it is our immatureway that now, well, obviously
this is about me versus man,tell me about what is happening,
what is this about?
And then now I feel like it'sabout me, but that's a me thing.
But if I just say it's about menow, now prove to me that it's
(19:37):
about me, but that's a me thing.
But if I just say it's about me, now, now prove to me that it's
not, when he's like, well, it'snot, cause at that point then
she's saying I don't agree.
So I need you to make me feelbetter about this assumption I'm
making.
And that's where I startlooking at that.
That game's kind of rigged,because I don't like the way I
feel.
I think it's your fault.
Now you need to make me feelbetter, even though I'm not
really sure what I need rightnow.
(19:58):
So start dancing.
Trisha Jamison (20:00):
Well, I think too to speak into that a little
bit I think that the clientsthat I work with anyway too, is
if you're able to like I callthe green zone be thinking in
the green zone.
Your CEO is online, you'regoing to be able to logically
come up with those questions.
But because you're not either,you just got hit with a hammer
(20:23):
over the head.
Tony Overbay (20:24):
That CEO is gone right now.
Yes, and so it's hard.
They resigned.
Trisha Jamison (20:28):
So I don't know if, for me, I don't think that
this is about emotional maturity.
It's like you are so shockedyou don't even have time to
process it, and so I think thattaking a moment I mean, this is
when it takes time, and I thinkthat a lot of women get to this
place, but definitely not at thebeginning.
From what I've seen, it's likeI just can't like that's what.
Tony Overbay (20:52):
I want to say You're so right.
This is where and I'm sorry tocut you off so much, but it's
like I love this, because theyjust have to get to the point
where now they are listening tous or they're looking for help,
but you handle it the way youhandled it and it just was, and
neither of you did it wrong orbad, because I guess that's I
(21:13):
like what you're saying, becauseI would say it's pretty much
impossible to do it a good way,because it is happening.
Jeff Jamison (21:19):
You cannot be emotionally connected.
I mean, if you are notemotionally connected to the
person and they said, hey, thisand that happened, they'll go oh
, that sounds terrible.
But if you are emotionallyconnected and you love the
person and you're in an intimaterelationship that is tough,
Absolutely.
Trisha Jamison (21:38):
And I think that that is exactly why the husband
is so absolutely freaked outabout the fallout, because there
is such an emotional connectionand he completely understands
that if I share this information, she finds out all these things
are exposed.
Jeff Jamison (21:56):
Then there's no way and there's consequences
that may happen.
There's no way that she's goingto understand that it's not
about her, that it's about myown insecurities, all the junk
that I've been dealing withsince I was 13 or eight, or
there's so many stories outthere that it started so young
(22:16):
yeah but I think that in sodoing that creates this quagmire
of just this icky soup thatthey're both in and they cannot
get out of it and I think thatthe a difficult thing with
pornography, especially when it,when you're sexualized by
pornography at such an early agethat you don't know what you
(22:39):
don't know.
Then I have no idea, I'mcurious.
I know that when I observe thismaterial or consume it in
whatever way I am, that I have acertain feeling and it helps me
dissociate from the negativethings of my life.
And all of a sudden, sudden itbecomes a coping mechanism that
(22:59):
you had no idea was going tohappen and you wouldn't have
actually chose if you had anycognitive ability at that time.
Trisha Jamison (23:06):
Yeah, Exactly, exactly.
So, before we move on, I justwanted to one of the things that
I when I'm working with theseclients because what you say to
yourself is what you believe hekeeps calling himself a monster.
Tony Overbay (23:19):
He's a fraud.
Trisha Jamison (23:21):
I mean.
So he's going to show up likethat, and it's not about not
saying those things, but it's ifhe feels like he's a failure.
He can say I feel like I'm afailure, but then replacing it
with the person that he is.
So he's also a person that'slearning and he's growing and
(23:42):
he's trying to figure life out,and so sometimes those really
hard accusations that you makeabout yourself, which we're so
good at, all of us that can beyour focus.
Or you can say I'm enough andI'm working on it and I'm trying
to connect with someone youknow and I'm trying to become
the best person I can be, butI've got a lot of stuff that I
(24:04):
have to go through and workthrough in order to be that
person.
So I really try to stop themfrom saying because I've heard
that often I'm a monster, I'm aterrible person, I, you know, I
can never be trusted again.
And when you start puttingthose thoughts in your brain,
then it comes to fruition.
Jeff Jamison (24:21):
Those things will happen and so you just try to
change that narrative.
I love this so much, Trisha,and I look at this also not only
in the realm of pornography orthe way you're, you know, trying
to get out of a difficultsituation like this.
It also applies to people whosay my anxiety or my depression
(24:43):
or my bipolar disease, thesemental health issues are not the
who you are.
This is not your identity, andI would just as this.
I would try and have peoplechange their own narrative to
say when I feel anxiety, when Ifeel depressed when, I have
(25:05):
emotions that go up and down,when I feel that I am out of
control with my emotions.
You know that doesn't define whoyou are.
That just is part of the lifethat you have.
Tony Overbay (25:17):
Exactly.
Okay, I'll add a trio here andbring us all together too.
This is a quote I love.
The strongest force in thehuman personality is to act in
alignment with how you seeyourself.
So, however you identifyyourself, you're going to find a
way back to your home base.
Yeah, exactly, and this is whyI'm not a fan of when someone
labels themselves fill in theblank Right themselves fill in
the blank right.
I especially addict, whateveraddict it is yeah, because, then
(25:38):
if I, because I could be doingreally, really well.
Jeff Jamison (25:40):
But don't forget, I'm an addict, so I'm going to
find a way back to that homebase and I think that there are
some people that are addicts ofwhatever, whether it's
pornography, alcohol, otherdrugs, whatever it helps them to
stay focused on returningthemselves to normalcy by not
letting go of that, that need tostay on top of it yeah, it's
(26:01):
like I'm an addict, because yes,I'm saying it's yeah and so but
if it goes in the negative,where you're saying to yourself
or other people saying to you ohwell, you'll never amount to
anything because you're anaddict or you're never going to
get over this because you're anaddict.
That's where the problem becomesmore defeated rather than
(26:22):
having hope.
Trisha Jamison (26:23):
You know, and I think too, there's a lot of
people, I believe, that strugglewith that, because I feel like
they're angry and so I feel likethey also want them to be the
addict.
It's like I think it helps themmake more sense of the
situation and what's going onfor them.
Tony Overbay (26:42):
For the other, person for the spouse.
Trisha Jamison (26:44):
So it's like well, I do think you're an
addict because of all thesethings that have happened and
the things that you've done, andso, therefore, I think it gives
them permission to see them, asI guess, broken, so then they
can go get help.
Tony Overbay (27:01):
Yeah.
Trisha Jamison (27:02):
So I kind of see both sides here of the aisle.
It's like on the one side, Ithink that when they can make
sense of that term, then I feellike sometimes they can have
more compassion and grace forthem, feel like sometimes they
can have more compassion andgrace for them.
But when they're focusing onthat, this is more of a.
(27:22):
This isn't necessarily aboutthe spouse, because it's so hard
not to make it about you.
They're looking at, you know,naked women.
How can that not be about thespouse?
So it's so hard for them towrap their head around.
Oh, this is just about stress,this is just about disconnection
(27:42):
or or something that they'remissing.
It's like, no, no, no, this hasto be about me, because if I
fulfilled you, you wouldn't begoing to these sites and, and
you know, focusing on all their,these other terrible things.
So I just want to kind of speakinto that, because I appreciate
both sides of the aisle andwhere the women's coming from
(28:06):
and also, but I think Iappreciate the men too, because,
understanding so much more thanI ever have, especially working
with clients, it's I can seewhen, just like you were talking
about Tony, you're focusing onthe younger child and parents
and how they grew up, and it'snot about placing blame on
(28:29):
parents, but it definitely ishelping the person recognize
these tendencies and behaviorsthat have come from certain
behaviors from the parents.
So if they're not, heard,they're not listened.
Yes.
So what happens?
How do people start to gaslight, how do they start to
manipulate situations or projectthemselves or become more
(28:50):
emotionally immature?
I mean all of those behaviorsstemmed from a childhood or
something, an origin deep downthat came from that and so
understanding that, especiallyin a lot of times that the men,
when they're boys, you know itdoes start off with curiosity
(29:11):
and then you know I believe inSatan, I believe in God, and so
I think that you know Satan'svery real Call this the plague
of the century.
But I really believe that it'strue that he knows how to
manipulate children into beingmore curious and even you know,
and then tapping into all thesedifferent feelings inside them
(29:33):
and that a lot of that's justvery normal.
But then it goes into abnormalviewing and hiding and you know
he talks a lot about hiding andlying and because they can't
expose what they're doing,because it's so shameful,
exactly what we were justtalking about.
So if we could, if we couldstart early and help children
(29:56):
understand shame, understandthat this is not who you are,
but this is an action thatyou're doing that doesn't make
you feel good but it's not whoyou're becoming, because I think
that that shame, because it'snot talked about you can't, it's
(30:16):
so embarrassing, all thesedifferent things then they go
deep and they go down intodarker places.
Jeff Jamison (30:23):
And I think that it's important that parents that
might be listening to thisrecognize that this can start
early in a child's life.
This is so prevalent.
Trisha Jamison (30:32):
That's what we're talking about.
Jeff Jamison (30:33):
Yes, yeah, I mean early, I mean 13 is kind of on
the late end.
Yeah, it is, it's wild, okay,you know 9, 10 is when usually
most children have some earlyexposures to pornography of some
kind.
Well, I think now, but he'solder, so I think that that
would make sense For thisgentleman now, yes, I get that,
(30:58):
so I think 13 is more like eightor nine now.
I agree, yeah, yeah, and it's soprevalent.
It used to be that people inmine and Tony's era we had to go
find it.
It had to be an active thing,and I don't think that there's a
young man growing up, or ayoung woman in many cases, that
(31:19):
haven't had some exposure topornography at this point.
And so people dabble indifferent levels.
It's a spectrum.
Some people go, oh, you know,that's interesting, and then
that's all it becomes.
Then there's the people who useit once or twice a year, you
know, because of whateverstresses they're under, and then
there are people who use itoften, and there's all the
(31:44):
spectrum in between.
And it sounds like Keith hasgotten into the latter end of
that, where he's using it morefrequently and it's become a
coping mechanism that's reallyhard for him to let go of,
because he gets a benefit for it.
You know, it's a part of hislife that he doesn't like, but
(32:04):
it also helps him cope with therest of his life, and I'm not
saying that it's appropriate,but I am saying that it's
serving a purpose that allowshim to move forward in a way
that allows him to be who he isor he wants to be with his
family.
But there are still so manydetrimental things even in that
thinking.
Trisha Jamison (32:24):
And I think that that's what's so challenging
for spouses is to understandthat that is even a coping
mechanism.
It's like how in the worldcould that possibly be a coping
mechanism.
I go back to the.
Tony Overbay (32:36):
Every behavior is a need-seeking behavior and
that's where I was going to saywhen you were talking about yeah
, it makes sense that, how wouldshe not think it's about her?
But he has been coping this wayand it wasn't a childhood
adaptation as a way to get adopamine dump to check out, to
feel excited.
So that's the coping, that'sthe adaptation that he brings
(32:58):
into the marriage, and so manypeople I work with they do
assume that when I get marriedthen it will go away.
But it is a coping.
That's why I go so big on it'sa coping mechanism that they
bring into the marriage and itwas an adaptation that served
them to some point.
So it doesn't matter how muchsex they're having, or so when
she's saying, if I fulfilled you, you wouldn't do this, that's
(33:22):
again where I want to take astep back and that's why I go so
big on the concept of a copingmechanism.
There's the idea that somecoping mechanisms are more
socially acceptable.
Mine has always been exercise,I mean it just has, and
sometimes I feel very fortunate,not sometimes.
I often feel very fortunate thatmine has had a social
acceptability, but I nowrecognize that it was my so
desperate need to feel seen orunderstood or matter Couldn't
(33:45):
stop at a half marathon Couldn'tstop at a full marathon had to
run a hundred miles.
You know that's excessive.
But, it's like so.
It was an adaptive need seekingbehavior to help me cope with
things.
But now maybe spinal surgerywas the thing that said it did
you well for a while, but alittle maladaptive over time.
Trisha Jamison (34:04):
Right.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
And I think too that you know,especially at a 13-year-old and
younger, their little brains arelike sponges and it's soaking
up the instant reward of thedopamine dump.
And I think too, when they getthat dopamine hit, it creates a
shortcut for his brain and itstill craves more, which I think
(34:29):
sometimes pushes him towardeven riskier behaviors,
especially as he gets older, sohe can continue to feel that
rush again.
So I appreciate that piece asI've learned more about how they
start that process and whenthey're stressed and when
(34:50):
they're trying to figure lifeout and they feel awkward or
uncomfortable out, and they feelawkward or uncomfortable.
That makes them feel, you know,for a very short time it makes
them feel okay and so, yeah,okay, no, this is really good.
Tony Overbay (35:04):
It's.
This is where I wanted to get alittle nerdy when he said the
the, the part where he's movedon to things that he never
thought he would do.
Right, um, there's a conceptcalled the coolidge effect and
there's a, the person I thinkexplained this.
The best is this uh, kevinmageris.
He's a psychiatrist called theCoolidge effect, and there's a
the person I think explainedthis the best is this Kevin
Majerus.
He's a psychiatrist that worksout of Harvard Medical School,
and so, oh and this goes back towhat Jeff was talking about
(35:26):
yeah, and Jeff and my day, mydad had a stash of magazines
that were under a get rid of thevanity in the bathroom, so I
had to be home, he had to begone.
You know I had to be home, hehad to be gone.
You know I had to wait.
So there were, it just wasn't aconstant flood of that.
It was.
So kids now with their phonesand with the way that access to
social media and streaming videoI think this will make sense
(35:47):
here.
So this Coolidge effect, kevinMajera said scientists have
discovered that if you place amale rat in a cage with a
receptive female, they will mate.
But once done, the male ratwill not mate more times, even
if the female is still receptive.
He loses sexual interest.
But if right after you put inanother willing female, he will
immediately mate again, and thena third, and so on until he
nearly dies.
And that effect has been foundin every and he says every
(36:09):
animal studied, and this iscalled the Coolidge effect.
Now that's where we get into theconcept of dopamine.
So dopamine is the drug ofdesire.
When you see somethingdesirable, your brain pours out
dopamine, saying go for it, doit, do whatever it takes.
So then dopamine fixes yourattention on that desirable
object, giving you the power ofconcentration, and this is why I
thought it makes so much sense.
So when somebody clicks andsees a new pornographic image,
(36:30):
his lower brain thinks this isthe real thing, this is the lady
he must win over with all hismight.
And so he gets an enormousdopamine flood in his upper
brain, causing a wild amount ofelectrical energy.
The first exposure to a newfemale who is a potential mate
wasn't something that happenedto a lot of our early ancestors.
Maybe once in their lives Earlycaveman poured out all the
dopamine you know, or you seethe animal kingdom, the gorilla
(36:52):
beats his chest and throws dirtand stuff around and they're
like it is.
I will do everything I can toget this one willing female.
So the brain thinks this is areally big deal.
It doesn't know that now thegame has completely changed.
It doesn't understand thatthese are virtual females only.
So with each new one it causesanother flood of dopamine, time
after time, click after click.
As long as he continues, it's adopamine binge.
(37:12):
Here's why pornography causes avicious circle.
When somebody views pornography, he gets overstimulated by
dopamine, so his brain destroyssome dopamine receptors.
This makes him feel depleted.
So he goes back to pornography,but having fewer dopamine
receptors.
This time it requires more toget the same dopamine thrill,
but this causes his brain todestroy more receptors, so he
feels an even greater need forpornography to stimulate him.
So as guys keep gaming thedopamine system, they have to
(37:34):
find they have to usepornography for longer and
longer periods to have the sameeffect and they have to visit
more and more sites.
You have to stimulate.
Then eventually another emotion, fear or disgust or shock or
surprise.
So for porn use you need tostart moving to kinkier things,
things that make you afraid orthings that make you feel a bit
sick, and so you startexperimenting with various
perversions, and that's where Ihave seen, time after time time,
(37:55):
somebody that is telling methey're working on it and
they're not worried about that.
I'll bring awareness about theCoolidge effect often, and I
think it does go back to if it'sthere and it's a coping
mechanism and it's available andit becomes almost a ritual.
Then the person this is what'shappening.
So then they typically do spendmore and more time, longer and
(38:15):
longer, and I've worked withplenty of people not trying to
be dramatic, but who would havenever in a million years thought
that they would start lookingat what they're looking at or
then start acting outside oflooking at images to go to be,
because that's where people needthe dopamine fast and they need
(38:38):
to be able to get away fromdevices or to be able to even
just get a reset, because thatwill avoid getting on to those
worse and worse areas the brainis so amazing in this.
Jeff Jamison (38:49):
I just think this is such a cool thing how it
adapts to things.
This is a similar thing that wesee in medicine.
That's called the opioidanalgesic effect, where if
you're a person that has achronic pain issue and you're
treated with an opioid, thenover time that opioid won't work
(39:11):
as well because your bodydown-regulates the amount of
opioid receptors so that youneed more opioid in order to get
the same effect, and so it's avery interesting effect that
also that Coolidge obviouslycame up with.
Tony Overbay (39:30):
Actually, I have to tell you, dr Jeff the reason
it's called the Coolidge effectis kind of funny.
It's from President Coolidgeand apparently they were touring
a poultry factory and I willget this story wrong.
But it's called the CoolidgeEffect is kind of funny.
It's from President Coolidgeand apparently they were touring
a poultry factory and I willget this story wrong, but it's
really funny.
And so then Mrs Coolidge walksby and you can never tell if
this is a wives' tale.
But I mean it is literallycalled the Coolidge Effect and
(39:50):
where they tell the female thatthe male can mate over and over
again, like they're pointingthat out about this male rooster
.
Then when the president comesby they tell him that.
Oh, she says, make sure andtell that to the president when
he comes through this part ofthe tour.
So when the president comesthen he just says, wait, you're
(40:11):
saying it's with more than onefemale.
Like, so then it was, you know,mic drop, so she thought she
got him, and then he's sayingyeah, oh my gosh yeah right, I
know insert symbol and you knowdrum.
Anyway, I didn't mean to cut youoff, but it's like that is.
That is a funny part.
That is why it's called thecoolidge effect.
Trisha Jamison (40:27):
Oh, interesting interesting, I didn't know but.
Tony Overbay (40:29):
but I like where you're going with this, dr jeff,
because I've never understoodthat opioid part where people,
yeah, yeah, they need more andmore.
It makes sense Opioid-inducedhyperalgesia.
Jeff Jamison (40:38):
So basically, when you're not under opioid effect,
then what you normally might'vecalled yourself a person with
high pain tolerance, you becomea person with low pain tolerance
, and even the smallest amountof pain seems like a lot of pain
, and this is a it's awell-known effect and one of the
(40:58):
downsides to using long-termopioids.
Wow, that makes sense.
Trisha Jamison (41:03):
Yeah, that is fascinating, actually, Going
back to Keith's question, whenhe talks about how he has
spiraled into dark placesexplicit chats, paid
subscriptions and he stunnedhimself asking why can't I break
free?
And, despite his efforts, whatmight be driving this escalation
and how can he uncover thosedeeper triggers?
(41:25):
So we've talked a little bitabout that, but where can he
start the process of kind of hisfirst steps?
Tony Overbay (41:35):
And again, in a perfect world it is
uncomfortable and it is go finda therapist or a coach that
specializes, because often I dofind that people go to people
that don't specialize and thenit is more of just a check the
box.
And I think Jeff was talkingabout yeah, the guy will have a
need to confess.
And then this is where I doview this as a bit of the and I
(41:58):
know I'm in this emotionallyimmature lens currently, but it
is not helpful.
I mean, it's a step.
I was going to say confession.
When somebody says, okay, fine,I'll go, first of all, that is
not the attitude to then go gethelp.
But then I'm going to gobecause I want to check the box.
So then I'm going to go and I'mbasically okay, I did it, and
I'm just basically confessing.
And then I can have the personsay, hey, you're not like, even
(42:20):
if they came to me, it was okay.
Yeah, no, you're a human andyou're not broken and you're
going to figure this out andwhatever.
Well, that makes the personfeel better.
So now I feel better, so I'mgood and I did it and that.
So they need to go get help.
But but even in a grand schemeof things, if they can start
listening to more things,reading more things.
Just don't ignore it.
(42:41):
And that's what the brain doesso often.
Or people do in their moreemotionally immature state is
okay, no, I, I get it now, Iwon't do it again.
That makes them feel better inthat moment and so a lot of
people that are going to hearthis at some point you know
they're going to say, okay, no,that makes sense, get it now.
I don't even really need to gotalk to anybody.
Got Coolidge effect, got it.
I need to not beat myself up.
(43:01):
You the discomfort of lookingfor help.
It will be uncomfortable, Idon't need help.
So he's still at that space of.
He still wants to hide and notdivulge, even though he feels
like he's divulged.
Trisha Jamison (43:41):
He still hasn't allowed himself to be humble
enough.
I feel like to seek that helpbecause he just wants to control
what he can control.
So I feel like these patternsoften stem from we just kind of
talked about this.
You know the unaddressedemotions, and that could be from
stress.
You know the extra stress isfrom work or a disconnection at
(44:04):
home.
At times it could createanything.
That's what we've been talkingabout and it could also be from
old feelings of inadequacy.
One of the things that I try tohave my couples do is to begin
to notice what's happeninginside him before he hits the
urge, because so often there'sthese triggers and you kind of
(44:25):
start to feel something and soit's taking a second before that
action happens.
And pause I love that word,that's my favorite word is pause
and to just breathe, becausewhen you can get oxygen to the
brain you can start, put yourCEO back online and you're not
going after these urges like youcan just start to think, you
(44:48):
can allow yourself to to think,and so, for instance, if
somebody you know he had a longday and the kids are arguing, he
feels overwhelmed.
If somebody you know he had along day and the kids are
arguing.
He feels overwhelmed, is justtaking a pause and recognizing
am I stressed, am I lonely and Ilove the halt you know, hungry.
Tony Overbay (45:12):
What is it?
Hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
There's a better one.
That's a blast and the onlyreason I want to.
I never remember what it all isand I just like the B because
it's bored and I think one ofthe main triggers is boredom
People often think that it's Isaw.
I saw a beautiful woman orsomething it's like.
It's bored, bored andaccessible, I think is often the
main ones really.
Trisha Jamison (45:28):
So I think it's to just kind of go a little
deeper inside and allow yourselfto feel some of these, when you
start to feel a trigger, and toput something else in that
place, whether deep breathing,just writing a couple thoughts
down how he's feeling in anotebook.
What do you think about theseapps?
(45:49):
There's an app called Fortify.
Do they really offer dailyprogress?
Tony Overbay (45:56):
I heard it's like well, this is what I like.
I always like when we starttalking like the therapist and
coach, just like chocolate,peanut butter and orisa's,
because I, I notice right nowit's hard for me to not just
wanted to say I mean, you knowwhat the person, as long as
they're now aware they weren't.
You know, they didn't know whatthey didn't know.
Now they know, but they're notgoing to do like I.
I know that this is the way thatmost things play out, but that
(46:18):
part where now they're aware butthey don't really do, is often
the longest period.
And they got to get to the partwhere they're doing more than
they don't and eventually theybecome and and I, and so it's
still so funny in my inherentnature to just I want to tell
somebody what to do, but it'sstill like I mean, and I like
when you're saying, hey, do this, like, write it down, take a
breath, you know, and I thinkthat's where I always make the
joke about, and then, if youdon't, then let me know.
(46:41):
You know what Trish's advice is.
Trisha Jamison (46:42):
We'll come up with something else.
Tony Overbay (46:45):
And what I like about that is.
So the apps they're great,except for when they don't work.
They work until they don't.
So I have had many clientsstart them, stop them, start
them, stop them.
And then they're like man, Ican't even stay on the app, and
so my job is like saying okay,did it, was it working?
Well, totally was.
But then I stopped using it andlike let's go back to it.
It totally was, so then startusing it again.
(47:06):
Yeah, but I?
But what if I don't keep it up?
Well, we'll see about that.
You know, let's do it until youdon't.
And if you don't, why didn'tyou?
Because sometimes it's honestlyyeah, I forgot about it, I'm
like cool.
What are ways that we can workon to not forget and so that's?
Where I think people are almosttrying to convince themselves
see how broken I am.
I might as well just go do itagain.
Jeff Jamison (47:27):
But here's where accountability and commitment
therapy comes in.
I mean, this is where you'vegot to come up with your own.
Why?
Tony Overbay (47:34):
Eventually for sure.
Trisha Jamison (47:37):
You've got to come up with your own.
Why?
Eventually for sure, you've gotto come up with your own.
What am I going to do instead?
That humility piece?
Jeff Jamison (47:39):
absolutely yes.
You build in the pause and thenyou come up with your own.
Here's what I'm going to doinstead, before I get down that
slippery slope and into themiddle of the quagmire.
If a person can go, all right,whenever this happens, what I'm
going to do is I'm going to callmy wife, or I'm going to get up
(48:02):
and walk away from the computerand do something else, or
whatever it is.
And whatever that is.
If you catch yourself early,maybe it's just late at night
and you just need to go to bed.
Tony Overbay (48:17):
Then go to bed.
Go to bed.
Yes, that's Jeff Smith.
That tired piece is real.
Jeff Jamison (48:24):
You know it'll help you so much, and it's
finding out what you need to doand trying them on.
You can't just go well, if I dothis, then always it will work.
Absolutely.
You can't just go well, if I dothis, then always it will work.
There's no, always in the realmof people and knowing that
(48:44):
people are not always, never,and black and white and all
those things, you have to beable to have a spectrum of
options.
Tony Overbay (48:53):
Yeah, things work until they don't.
They work until they don't, andthat doesn't mean that it
didn't work or that it now okay.
Jeff Jamison (48:59):
Or it won't work in the future.
Tony Overbay (49:00):
It won't work in the future, and that's the
continual moving forward in thatthere's an absence of shame in
that thing that one is doingdime.
Trisha Jamison (49:12):
How you do one thing is how you do everything.
So if that person oftentimesjust gives up and quits,
something gets too hard and theydon't want to do it, that may
be a personality issue.
Or when a person is focusing onsomething for the wrong reason,
that could also be why he stops.
If he's doing it for the spouseand not for himself, then that
(49:36):
can create resentment and but itcan create the non-consistency
he's not, he's not followingthrough because he's he doesn't
really mean it, he's just doingit for her.
Tony Overbay (49:48):
Which is funny too , Trisha, because I and this is
where I go back to your rightand then also but if a guy
doesn't know what he doesn'tknow, and then because how many?
times have I heard somebody sayI just got to do it, I just got
to, I just got to do whatever Igot to do to save this marriage.
I do whatever I got to do toand it's like I know that's
(50:13):
actually not the case.
You and he's like man.
I'm not even doing me right,right now.
I must really be bad where it'slike man.
I hear you Tell me more aboutit, because that makes sense.
Of course I want to save mymarriage.
I'm terrified.
But then that's me saying Ijust need somebody to tell me
exactly what to do.
I can do it, check the boxesand we're good.
We're good Then that isn'tabout internal change, or yeah.
Trisha Jamison (50:35):
And that's what you just said, or Jeff's just
said, that you know it will workuntil it doesn't work because
he hasn't internally figured outthat this is, this is for him.
He really, truly wants to makethat change and one of the
things that I've had clients sayis I can't imagine being
someone different.
This has been such a part of mylife for so long.
(50:56):
I don't even know what thatlooks like and I can't even
imagine.
I don't think I can do it.
Tony Overbay (51:01):
I mean, they've already given up before they've
even tried, because it's likethey can't imagine life without
having these mechanisms thathe's been in place absolutely
yeah yeah, well, I think tony'sgot to get going here and yeah
but, man, if we have to pick upanother episode of this too, you
can tell that it's something.
Trisha Jamison (51:19):
Yeah, because we're like right in the middle,
we we need to continue focusingon some of these other questions
that he's asked.
I don't want to just leave himhanging, so let's just get on
next week and we'll start againright where we left off.
Tony Overbay (51:34):
Yeah, so, keith, hang on we're where we got to
work on those things, work onthose things.
We'll start again right wherewe left off.
Trisha Jamison (51:37):
Yeah, so Keith, hang on.
Tony Overbay (51:37):
Hang on, Keith Work on those things, work on
those things.
We'll get back to you, that'sright.
Trisha Jamison (51:42):
Okay, super Wow.
We're just scratching thesurface of Keith's powerful
story and there's so much moreto unpack His struggle to break
the cycle, rebuild trust withhis wife and find forgiveness
for himself.
We're going to dive deeper intothese questions next week in
part two, where we'll pick upright where we left off with
Tony, jeff and myself.
(52:02):
So stay tuned for morepractical steps, heartfelt
insights and hope for Keith'sjourney.
You won't want to miss it,keith.
We hear you, we see you andyou're not alone in this
struggle.
Your courage to share your painis a huge step forward and
there's hope for healing.
If you're battling pornographyand need extra support, tony's
(52:23):
the Path Back program is anincredible resource.
Reach out to him and we'llinclude the contact information
in the show notes below.
And for couples who arestruggling with no connection,
barely speaking, have hadbetrayal, trauma, navigating
heartache or feeling like thelove you once had has faded or
is lost, please know there's away forward.
(52:45):
My eight-month Healing Heartsprogram is a comprehensive,
transformative journey designedto help you build trust,
rediscover intimacy and helpheal deep wounds.
With one-on-one coaching calls,engaging worksheets and fun
activities and tools to bringyou closer together than ever,
(53:10):
you will find that love again,you will find that beauty on the
other side.
It's a space to find clarityand hope.
So please reach out to me atTrishaJamisonCoaching at
gmailcom to start theconversation today To our
amazing listeners.
If this episode moved you,please share it with someone who
needs it and hit subscribe.
Please leave us a review andhelp us grow this beautiful
community of hearts just likeyours.
Your stories and questions arewhat make this space so special.
(53:33):
So please send us yourquestions at Trisha
Jamisonaching at gmailcom, andthank you for joining us today.
Stay strong, keep shining andwe'll see you next week for part
two of Key Story.
Goodbye everyone.
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&AFiles, delighted to share
today's gems of wisdom with you.
Your questions light up ourshow, fueling the engaging
(53:53):
dialogues that make ourcommunity extra special.
Keep sending your questions toTrisha Jamison coaching at
gmailcom.
Your curiosity is our compass.
Please hit subscribe, spreadthe word and let's grow the
circle of insight and communitytogether.
I'm Trisha Jamison signing off.
Stay curious, keep thriving andkeep smiling, and I'll catch
you on the next episode.
Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the
ultimate health and wellnessplayground.
I'm your host, Trisha Jamison,a board-certified functional
nutritionist and lifestylepractitioner, ready to lead you
through a world of healthdiscoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry ofdisease prevention to nutrition
, exercise, mental health andbuilding strong relationships,
all spiced with diverseperspectives.
(00:29):
It's not just a podcast, it's acelebration of health, packed
with insights and a twist of fun.
Welcome aboard the Q&A Files,where your questions ignite our
vibrant discussions and lead toa brighter you.
Welcome, awesome listeners, toanother soul-stirring episode of
the Q&A Files.
I'm your host, Trisha Jamison,a functional nutritionist and
lifestyle practitioner and alife coach, here to walk you
(00:53):
through life's toughestquestions and brightest hopes.
I'm joined by my two incredibleco-hosts, dr Jeff Jamison, a
board-certified family physicianwhose science-meets meets
compassion approach alwaysinspires, and Tony Overbay, a
licensed marriage and familytherapist with a gift for
cutting straight to the truth.
So, Jeff and Tony, I appreciateyour wisdom and knowledge.
(01:14):
It's always a pleasure to haveyou both here with me today.
Jeff Jamison (01:17):
Cutting straight to the truth.
Comes, tony, right now.
Tony Overbay (01:19):
Okay, okay, but what I'm doing is to use a very,
very big word there.
Trisha, did you saysoul-stering?
Trisha Jamison (01:25):
I'm Googling this Soul-stering Yep.
Tony Overbay (01:27):
Soul-stering.
Okay, I'm on board.
All right, I was looking up.
Trisha Jamison (01:31):
What did you think?
I said?
Tony Overbay (01:32):
I was Googling soul-stering.
Trisha Jami (01:34):
S-O-L-S-T-E-R-I-N-G .
Tony Overbay (01:45):
Well, I'm down with that.
I'm okay with that.
I will stir a soul or two.
We're working on enunciationnext.
Okay.
Jeff Jamison (01:48):
Okay, okay, okay.
Trisha Jamison (01:52):
So let's start with celebrations.
Who's going to go first?
Jeff walked in and he had thebiggest grin on his face.
What did you just do thismorning?
Jeff Jamison (02:01):
Oh, I went flying this morning and it's a
beautiful, beautiful day and I'mlearning to fly a tail wheel
airplane and that is really funit.
It makes me a better pilot,keeps my rudder control much
more in the groove, if you will,it's a it's a great learning
experience.
So I had a great time just thismorning for that.
Trisha Jamison (02:22):
Awesome, fantastic, tony.
Okay, I have one, I do.
Tony Overbay (02:27):
I do.
I was going to say one of themis just that I'm back in
California, I travel.
I was traveling every otherweek back up to my practice here
, so I got to hang out with myson and his girlfriend and I'll
go see my parents.
But it's wild that I'm thatmany weeks away for our post,
this surgery.
That at one point seemed so faraway and anyway.
But I just this is meshamelessly promoting my other
podcast because I have solvedall things.
(02:50):
Mental health now, finally, Idid, I figured it out.
Yeah, it's kind of like mappingthe genome or whatever that
like project.
And we talk about it here whereI like saying everybody's
emotionally mature and I saythat.
And it mainly comes into playwhen people are calling people
narcissists.
And then I always like to makethat point narcissistic
personality disorder prettysmall percentage, what study you
(03:12):
look at?
Two to four or 5%.
But then I maintain but we'reall emotionally immature, so to
me that means a ton.
But I just released an episodefiguring it all out and I
realized that when I say it andI'm wanting everybody else to
just go, oh my gosh, yeah, I soget it.
But usually they're like okay,cool, so I'm not a narcissist.
And then, uh, I'm saying that'swhere it goes.
Jeff Jamison (03:32):
It stops, that's where it goes yeah, and so then.
Tony Overbay (03:34):
but I just I just laid out one I've worked on for
a long time and it just I gointo the what the real examples
look like and how our adaptivestrategies as kids, then they're
maladaptive when we becomeadults and that is the basis of
immaturity.
We're taking our little kidstuff and then we're carrying it
around in our big kid bodiesand into us.
It makes sense, but it got ushere.
(03:54):
So thank you, inner child, buttime to let the big kids take
over.
So I would encourage anybody togo listen to that episode.
Jeff Jamison (04:00):
Well, which podcast is it?
Tony Overbay (04:02):
So I threw it on both actually Waking.
Up the Narcissism and theVirtual Couch.
Yeah, oh, very good, because itis.
Trisha Jamison (04:08):
It's interesting because I actually listened to
it last night and the thing thatI found fascinating that's the
very thing that I'm working onin one of my modules is exactly
what you shared, so I thought weare definitely got these vibes
going on.
Tony Overbay (04:21):
So I was pretty excited about that too.
Trisha Jamison (04:26):
So it will be good.
So I'm celebrating this bluesky and it's supposed to be 71
degrees here today in Spokane,and it is an absolute lovely day
with the blossoms going crazyand I'm really excited to see
lilacs coming on.
We're the lilac city.
I love lilacs, my favoriteflower, so it's a gorgeous day
here.
Tony Overbay (04:44):
Now, dr Jeff and I , I train my male clients that
when our wives mention flowersand sunsets, we go oh man,
that's yeah, I love that.
That sounds great, oh howromantic, that sounds romantic.
Trisha Jamison (04:57):
Well done Okay okay, gentlemen, if we could
just get some.
Jeff Jamison (05:01):
If we could just have a beach to walk hand in
hand on the beach.
Trisha Jamison (05:04):
I'm good with that.
Yeah, let's go to a beach,honey.
Jeff Jamison (05:08):
Oh, I think we will, I think we will.
Trisha Jamison (05:11):
All right, thank you.
Now let's ease into somethingtender and real.
Today we're stepping into aspace that's very complex and
full of courage.
So last week we shared Paula'sstory a wife navigating the
heartbreak of discovering herhusband's hidden struggle with
pornography.
Her pain and questions abouttrust and worth struck a chord
(05:35):
with so many of you.
Now we're turning the lens toKeith, a man who's grappling
with his own side of this issue.
Keith's question came inrecently and it isn't tied to
Paula's story.
They're not a couple, but itechoes the same theme how
pornography can fracture trustand intimacy and what it takes
(05:56):
to heal.
Now, keith's vulnerability anddesire to change make this
conversation so powerful, solet's dive into his story with
open hearts.
Keith writes I'm 36, married tomy wife for 12 years and we
have two amazing kids, eight and10.
She's my rock, my home, my love,my life, but I've been hiding a
(06:18):
secret that's tearing me apart.
It started when I was 13 yearsold, when I stumbled across
pornography online one restlessnight.
What felt like innocentcuriosity grew into a habit I
couldn't shake.
Over time, it pulled me intodarker places.
I never imagined going Explicitchats, paid subscriptions that
(06:39):
led me into things that I nevercould imagine doing either.
I can't believe that was evenme.
I'm horrified at who I'vebecome.
Every time I swear I'll stop, Ifall back, deleting browser
histories, installing blockers,praying for strength, only to
end up in the same dark place.
A month ago my wife found out.
(07:01):
She saw my search history onour share tablet and the pain in
her eyes was like I had juststabbed her.
She didn't yell, she just criedquietly and asked why wasn't I
enough?
I had no words.
The shame is crushing.
I feel like a monster, a fraudwho's betrayed the woman I
cherish and the family we'vebuilt together.
(07:22):
I'm terrified.
I've destroyed our marriage andscarred our kids forever.
My heart aches knowing I'vemade her question her worth,
when she's everything to me.
I've tried so hard to stop.
I've gone weeks, even months,like I mentioned, using blockers
, praying, confessing to afriend, but stress or
disconnection always drags meback.
I'm living a double life thehusband and dad who adores his
(07:45):
family and the stranger Idespise and absolutely hate.
I don't want to be this manlying and hiding.
I want to be the husband andfather they deserve, but I'm
scared.
I'm too far gone.
Why can't I break free?
How do I rebuild my wife'strust when I'm drowning in guilt
?
How do I forgive myself forshattering her heart?
(08:06):
I'm begging for a way out.
Please help me.
That's heavy.
So Keith's story is so raw andheavy his shame, his shock and
how far he's fallen, his deeplove for his wife and kids and
his desperate hope to change.
(08:26):
So his questions why can't hebreak free, how to rebuild trust
and how to forgive himself area heartfelt cry for a path
forward.
So I'm so grateful we have Tonyand Dr Jeff here with us today.
Tony, you've guided many menthrough struggles like Keith's,
and your program, what is calledPathback, that's right.
Tony Overbay (08:50):
Thank you, pathbackrecoverycom.
I believe, or reach out to me.
Trisha Jamison (08:54):
And it's designed to help men caught in
the cycle to find their way out.
So, before we dive into Keith'squestions, can you share a
little bit about the Pathbackand how?
Tony Overbay (09:17):
it could support someone like Keith.
The best part of it, because Ijust think that it is about
connection with other guys,which maybe we'll find some time
to get to that today.
But what I address in the pathback is I really believe that I
look at people turning topornography as an unhealthy
coping mechanism.
We throw around the term sexaddict or pornography addict a
(09:38):
lot, but there actually is not adiagnosis of pornography
addiction.
You could be looking at impulsecontrol disorder or compulsive
behaviors, but most of thepeople that I find that are
saying that they are a pornaddict.
They're not.
It's something they turn to asa coping mechanism.
And I have identified five areasthat I think are when people
(09:59):
primarily turn to unhealthycoping mechanisms, whether it's
drinking, gambling, sex, porn.
It could be working, it couldbe you name it and it's when
they don't feel connected intheir marriage or they don't
feel like a good parent, whenthey're not connected in their
faith, their health or theircareer.
And so the path back there areagain.
There are modules, there arethings to do, but I think in the
calls I like to make the jokethat we don't talk about
(10:21):
pornography very often becausereally there's a, and I don't
want to jump ahead, but you needto know that you're okay.
You're a human going throughlife for the first time and this
happened and I just I willmaintain that I wrote down a lot
of things that he said.
I'm horrified who I've become.
You know that I'm a monster.
I'm terrified, I'm scaredDouble life I'm drugged back.
(10:43):
I mean that sounds so.
We all, I mean we took a breathwhen you were done reading that
and my heart goes out for himbecause and it's ironic this
episode I was talking aboutearlier that I feel like I
jokingly solved everything, isthat is our little kid version
of us showing up as an adultsaying I need to beat myself up
in order to get help or tochange.
And if that was the recipe, wewould not need Pathback, we
(11:07):
would not need your course, mycourses, we wouldn't need
therapists or coaches, becausewe're really good at beating
ourselves up and so far that is.
It doesn't work.
Jeff Jamison (11:16):
Yeah, and personal shame, just never helped anyone
.
No, you know, guilt canmotivate.
Tony Overbay (11:23):
Yeah.
Jeff Jamison (11:23):
Okay, and I think, I think that if you feel guilt
and you're like I, just you knowthis is something I need to do
different.
I need to quit smoking, I needto stop pornography, I need to
quit drinking, and this is I.
I feel guilt about those thingsand it motivates you to change.
That's great.
Tony Overbay (11:41):
Yeah.
Jeff Jamison (11:42):
However, shame, in my opinion, is where it does
the opposite.
It just makes you feel morestuck, it makes you feel more
unwell and it makes you feellike you can't progress, and it
actually makes you dive deeperinto whatever you're having
trouble with the part where andI have people often say that
(12:06):
they and I'm grateful whensomebody is very open and
vulnerable that they don't trulyunderstand the difference
between guilt and shame.
Tony Overbay (12:08):
And yeah, guilt is I feel bad, shame is I am bad.
And if we go back to what Trishand I are talking about with
the emotional immaturity, thatthat was a survival mechanism as
a kid, it was an adaptation toa situation that we were going
through.
So when we would eventually say, man, I am just so bad, that
(12:29):
was most likely a time where aparent then maybe would come
around and say, hey, you're okay, everything's going to be okay.
And so then we take thatadaptation because it worked for
our little child and we bringit into adulthood and our big
bodies and we still think thatthat's going to work.
So that's where this episodeI'm talking about that I did on
my podcast was giving yourselfgrace, thanking the inner child
(12:51):
that it got us where we are.
You are indeed alive and sothank you.
That was an adaptation.
Now it's maladaptive, now it'sin the way, so it's time to
again pass the baton.
Thank you, inner child.
But now that is not the righttool, because when we go to
shame, then we're doing that Alot of internal as an adult, and
(13:11):
so then there isn't anybodythere that's going to say it's
okay, especially if you feellike you have hurt somebody and
somebody has been blindsided andthey are reacting.
So that's where I go back to.
You have to know you're okay.
This is where you have toreparent, you have to heal your
inner child and that has to.
I would say unfortunately, butno, fortunately that will come
(13:32):
from you.
So that's why this has happened.
He feels the way he feels andright now, the more he beats
himself up, it's almost selfish.
I think we've talked here.
I did an episode a while agowhere I said the selfishness of
shame which I feel like issaying, or I think it's somebody
who's down on the ground andI'm saying, hey, let me kick you
.
You know, while you feel someshame also, you're being pretty
selfish.
So I realized that's a prettytough concept, right, but if
(13:53):
somebody, if he's like I justfeel so bad now that I know what
I've done to my wife and Ican't believe it, it's okay, I'm
okay, yeah, right, it's for herto rescue him, exactly, yeah,
which is not ideal right now.
Which?
Jeff Jamison (14:08):
then turns all the focus off of the issues and
onto your poor, poor me position, yep.
Trisha Jamison (14:16):
And that rescuing loop is so real.
I appreciate, though, howpeople get into this shame trap,
and I think it's reallyimperative, just like you said
to, but you know, whensomebody's in the shame cycle,
it's really hard for them tostart thinking for sure
cognitively and going, okay,well, what's creating the shame?
(14:37):
How do I go back and starthealing my inner child?
So what is the first step youcan think of in somebody in that
state of mind that they can dobecause they're in fight or
flight, they're in this hypermode?
Tony Overbay (14:51):
I was thinking of you and Critter Brain.
Trisha Jamison (14:52):
Critter Brain.
They're in Critter Brain, yes.
Tony Overbay (14:54):
Yeah.
So I think it's such a goodquestion because my first
recommendation is something thatwill literally never happen,
you know.
So maybe it's until somebodyfigures out a time machine, but
I just want to say it's a don't,don't do that.
Basically, it basically is thatokay, I want to jokingly say,
richie, take that out.
But no, that was very real.
(15:14):
But it's like I wish everybodycould hear proactively that if
you ever get caught, or if youwere ever discovered, or if you
ever just decide you need toconfess, hold up.
How about you talk to aprofessional therapist or a
coach?
Because a lot of times, if theperson gets caught, what happens
?
They feel horrible.
And now, what do I do to getrid of that discomfort?
I'm gonna put it right backover on you, whether I know it
(15:36):
or not.
I mean, shame is me saying Ineed you to manage my emotions
right now because I can't managemy own, and so the person needs
to, as quickly as they can,seek help from an outside source
who knows this area.
Because, yeah, they're going tohave to process a lot, and this
is going to sound maybe alittle bit bad of me, but having
done this for a long time andI'm pretty picky and choosy
(15:57):
about who I work with.
Sometimes I'll get somebody newand it breaks my heart.
It also is frustrating to thinkof how much work is ahead when
they are coming into you andthey're convinced they are
horrible, they are bad Cause.
It's almost like now they'recoming into you because they
need somebody to just say yeah,you are really bad, you know
(16:18):
yeah, and it's like not notgoing to happen, or because it's
like no, I tell me how you'refeeling, because you're human
and this is the first timeyou're going through life as you
and this has happened andthere's some acceptance, and
let's learn how to manage myemotions.
Change my relationship with myemotions.
Don't try to shove them down,don't try to push them away.
Uh, don't try to hand them overto somebody else to manage.
(16:38):
So I just think there's so muchthere's some people don't get
help right away that they'retrying to co-regulate each other
, and that's a mess.
Jeff Jamison (16:46):
And again, the reason for doing that is so that
you don't verbally vomit onyour loved ones, yeah, and so
that you can process some ofthat beforehand, because there's
a deep feeling of I need toconfess this to whoever I harmed
, which is a really importantthing at some point.
Trisha Jamison (17:03):
But you have to know how to deal with your own
emotions first yeah, exactly,you know, and just like he's
talking about, you know shamecan feel like he's defined by
his worst choices yeah, rightand that is where we have to
understand that it's his lovefor his family.
He's showing that he cares, soit's focusing on who he is at
(17:28):
his core, not who he is by hischoices.
Tony Overbay (17:33):
I like that.
Can I say thank you for thatBecause I think the part I think
about I love your guys' take onthis.
But he said double life andI've even been pretty dramatic
and said, man, the double livesthat people lead with addiction
and it's like are unhealthycoping mechanisms.
And now I have such a differentunderstanding of that is this
whole concept of whole objectrelations.
(17:54):
It's when they are present withtheir kids.
They are present with theirkids when they are acting out.
They are acting out whenthey're having good moments with
their spouse.
They're having good momentswith their spouse.
It's easy to now jump into theall or nothing black or white.
It was, oh my gosh, I was afraud.
No, you were a good dad whenyou were a good dad and you were
serving well in a churchposition, when you were and you
(18:16):
were having really goodconnection with your spouse.
It's actually those are thethings that make it more
difficult, because then onebeats themselves up and says,
well then, why am I doing this?
Versus check this out, I can behere, I do feel like a good dad
and I do this because I have tobe able to step back and notice
.
This is how I show up in thesedifferent situations because
that's the data we need and it'sabsent of the I'm doing it
(18:38):
wrong.
What's wrong with me?
I'm a monster, you know.
So the double life, oh, ofcourse, like there's an
acceptance there, might evenhave a triple life, I don't even
know.
I don't know how many lives onecould fit in there.
But that's the part wherenotice that, accept it and now
we can work with it.
And that's where that episodewhere I've basically figured out
(19:17):
all of life that I'm talkingabout earlier is.
It's wild when you can startworking these ways of oh, I do
go back to my all or nothing,black or white thinking.
That is immature.
Or there's immaturity and Ineed you to manage my emotions,
saying you know, okay, so thisis obviously means that it's
about me.
I wasn't enough, I mean I, I,and that's that's the normal
response, a hundred percent.
But it's like it is our immatureway that now, well, obviously
this is about me versus man,tell me about what is happening,
what is this about?
And then now I feel like it'sabout me, but that's a me thing.
But if I just say it's about menow, now prove to me that it's
(19:37):
about me, but that's a me thing.
But if I just say it's about me, now, now prove to me that it's
not, when he's like, well, it'snot, cause at that point then
she's saying I don't agree.
So I need you to make me feelbetter about this assumption I'm
making.
And that's where I startlooking at that.
That game's kind of rigged,because I don't like the way I
feel.
I think it's your fault.
Now you need to make me feelbetter, even though I'm not
really sure what I need rightnow.
(19:58):
So start dancing.
Trisha Jamison (20:00):
Well, I think too to speak into that a little
bit I think that the clientsthat I work with anyway too, is
if you're able to like I callthe green zone be thinking in
the green zone.
Your CEO is online, you'regoing to be able to logically
come up with those questions.
But because you're not either,you just got hit with a hammer
(20:23):
over the head.
Tony Overbay (20:24):
That CEO is gone right now.
Yes, and so it's hard.
They resigned.
Trisha Jamison (20:28):
So I don't know if, for me, I don't think that
this is about emotional maturity.
It's like you are so shockedyou don't even have time to
process it, and so I think thattaking a moment I mean, this is
when it takes time, and I thinkthat a lot of women get to this
place, but definitely not at thebeginning.
From what I've seen, it's likeI just can't like that's what.
Tony Overbay (20:52):
I want to say You're so right.
This is where and I'm sorry tocut you off so much, but it's
like I love this, because theyjust have to get to the point
where now they are listening tous or they're looking for help,
but you handle it the way youhandled it and it just was, and
neither of you did it wrong orbad, because I guess that's I
(21:13):
like what you're saying, becauseI would say it's pretty much
impossible to do it a good way,because it is happening.
Jeff Jamison (21:19):
You cannot be emotionally connected.
I mean, if you are notemotionally connected to the
person and they said, hey, thisand that happened, they'll go oh
, that sounds terrible.
But if you are emotionallyconnected and you love the
person and you're in an intimaterelationship that is tough,
Absolutely.
Trisha Jamison (21:38):
And I think that that is exactly why the husband
is so absolutely freaked outabout the fallout, because there
is such an emotional connectionand he completely understands
that if I share this information, she finds out all these things
are exposed.
Jeff Jamison (21:56):
Then there's no way and there's consequences
that may happen.
There's no way that she's goingto understand that it's not
about her, that it's about myown insecurities, all the junk
that I've been dealing withsince I was 13 or eight, or
there's so many stories outthere that it started so young
(22:16):
yeah but I think that in sodoing that creates this quagmire
of just this icky soup thatthey're both in and they cannot
get out of it and I think thatthe a difficult thing with
pornography, especially when it,when you're sexualized by
pornography at such an early agethat you don't know what you
(22:39):
don't know.
Then I have no idea, I'mcurious.
I know that when I observe thismaterial or consume it in
whatever way I am, that I have acertain feeling and it helps me
dissociate from the negativethings of my life.
And all of a sudden, sudden itbecomes a coping mechanism that
(22:59):
you had no idea was going tohappen and you wouldn't have
actually chose if you had anycognitive ability at that time.
Trisha Jamison (23:06):
Yeah, Exactly, exactly.
So, before we move on, I justwanted to one of the things that
I when I'm working with theseclients because what you say to
yourself is what you believe hekeeps calling himself a monster.
Tony Overbay (23:19):
He's a fraud.
Trisha Jamison (23:21):
I mean.
So he's going to show up likethat, and it's not about not
saying those things, but it's ifhe feels like he's a failure.
He can say I feel like I'm afailure, but then replacing it
with the person that he is.
So he's also a person that'slearning and he's growing and
(23:42):
he's trying to figure life out,and so sometimes those really
hard accusations that you makeabout yourself, which we're so
good at, all of us that can beyour focus.
Or you can say I'm enough andI'm working on it and I'm trying
to connect with someone youknow and I'm trying to become
the best person I can be, butI've got a lot of stuff that I
(24:04):
have to go through and workthrough in order to be that
person.
So I really try to stop themfrom saying because I've heard
that often I'm a monster, I'm aterrible person, I, you know, I
can never be trusted again.
And when you start puttingthose thoughts in your brain,
then it comes to fruition.
Jeff Jamison (24:21):
Those things will happen and so you just try to
change that narrative.
I love this so much, Trisha,and I look at this also not only
in the realm of pornography orthe way you're, you know, trying
to get out of a difficultsituation like this.
It also applies to people whosay my anxiety or my depression
(24:43):
or my bipolar disease, thesemental health issues are not the
who you are.
This is not your identity, andI would just as this.
I would try and have peoplechange their own narrative to
say when I feel anxiety, when Ifeel depressed when, I have
(25:05):
emotions that go up and down,when I feel that I am out of
control with my emotions.
You know that doesn't define whoyou are.
That just is part of the lifethat you have.
Tony Overbay (25:17):
Exactly.
Okay, I'll add a trio here andbring us all together too.
This is a quote I love.
The strongest force in thehuman personality is to act in
alignment with how you seeyourself.
So, however you identifyyourself, you're going to find a
way back to your home base.
Yeah, exactly, and this is whyI'm not a fan of when someone
labels themselves fill in theblank Right themselves fill in
the blank right.
I especially addict, whateveraddict it is yeah, because, then
(25:38):
if I, because I could be doingreally, really well.
Jeff Jamison (25:40):
But don't forget, I'm an addict, so I'm going to
find a way back to that homebase and I think that there are
some people that are addicts ofwhatever, whether it's
pornography, alcohol, otherdrugs, whatever it helps them to
stay focused on returningthemselves to normalcy by not
letting go of that, that need tostay on top of it yeah, it's
(26:01):
like I'm an addict, because yes,I'm saying it's yeah and so but
if it goes in the negative,where you're saying to yourself
or other people saying to you ohwell, you'll never amount to
anything because you're anaddict or you're never going to
get over this because you're anaddict.
That's where the problem becomesmore defeated rather than
(26:22):
having hope.
Trisha Jamison (26:23):
You know, and I think too, there's a lot of
people, I believe, that strugglewith that, because I feel like
they're angry and so I feel likethey also want them to be the
addict.
It's like I think it helps themmake more sense of the
situation and what's going onfor them.
Tony Overbay (26:42):
For the other, person for the spouse.
Trisha Jamison (26:44):
So it's like well, I do think you're an
addict because of all thesethings that have happened and
the things that you've done, andso, therefore, I think it gives
them permission to see them, asI guess, broken, so then they
can go get help.
Tony Overbay (27:01):
Yeah.
Trisha Jamison (27:02):
So I kind of see both sides here of the aisle.
It's like on the one side, Ithink that when they can make
sense of that term, then I feellike sometimes they can have
more compassion and grace forthem, feel like sometimes they
can have more compassion andgrace for them.
But when they're focusing onthat, this is more of a.
(27:22):
This isn't necessarily aboutthe spouse, because it's so hard
not to make it about you.
They're looking at, you know,naked women.
How can that not be about thespouse?
So it's so hard for them towrap their head around.
Oh, this is just about stress,this is just about disconnection
(27:42):
or or something that they'remissing.
It's like, no, no, no, this hasto be about me, because if I
fulfilled you, you wouldn't begoing to these sites and, and
you know, focusing on all their,these other terrible things.
So I just want to kind of speakinto that, because I appreciate
both sides of the aisle andwhere the women's coming from
(28:06):
and also, but I think Iappreciate the men too, because,
understanding so much more thanI ever have, especially working
with clients, it's I can seewhen, just like you were talking
about Tony, you're focusing onthe younger child and parents
and how they grew up, and it'snot about placing blame on
(28:29):
parents, but it definitely ishelping the person recognize
these tendencies and behaviorsthat have come from certain
behaviors from the parents.
So if they're not, heard,they're not listened.
Yes.
So what happens?
How do people start to gaslight, how do they start to
manipulate situations or projectthemselves or become more
(28:50):
emotionally immature?
I mean all of those behaviorsstemmed from a childhood or
something, an origin deep downthat came from that and so
understanding that, especiallyin a lot of times that the men,
when they're boys, you know itdoes start off with curiosity
(29:11):
and then you know I believe inSatan, I believe in God, and so
I think that you know Satan'svery real Call this the plague
of the century.
But I really believe that it'strue that he knows how to
manipulate children into beingmore curious and even you know,
and then tapping into all thesedifferent feelings inside them
(29:33):
and that a lot of that's justvery normal.
But then it goes into abnormalviewing and hiding and you know
he talks a lot about hiding andlying and because they can't
expose what they're doing,because it's so shameful,
exactly what we were justtalking about.
So if we could, if we couldstart early and help children
(29:56):
understand shame, understandthat this is not who you are,
but this is an action thatyou're doing that doesn't make
you feel good but it's not whoyou're becoming, because I think
that that shame, because it'snot talked about you can't, it's
(30:16):
so embarrassing, all thesedifferent things then they go
deep and they go down intodarker places.
Jeff Jamison (30:23):
And I think that it's important that parents that
might be listening to thisrecognize that this can start
early in a child's life.
This is so prevalent.
Trisha Jamison (30:32):
That's what we're talking about.
Jeff Jamison (30:33):
Yes, yeah, I mean early, I mean 13 is kind of on
the late end.
Yeah, it is, it's wild, okay,you know 9, 10 is when usually
most children have some earlyexposures to pornography of some
kind.
Well, I think now, but he'solder, so I think that that
would make sense For thisgentleman now, yes, I get that,
(30:58):
so I think 13 is more like eightor nine now.
I agree, yeah, yeah, and it's soprevalent.
It used to be that people inmine and Tony's era we had to go
find it.
It had to be an active thing,and I don't think that there's a
young man growing up, or ayoung woman in many cases, that
(31:19):
haven't had some exposure topornography at this point.
And so people dabble indifferent levels.
It's a spectrum.
Some people go, oh, you know,that's interesting, and then
that's all it becomes.
Then there's the people who useit once or twice a year, you
know, because of whateverstresses they're under, and then
there are people who use itoften, and there's all the
(31:44):
spectrum in between.
And it sounds like Keith hasgotten into the latter end of
that, where he's using it morefrequently and it's become a
coping mechanism that's reallyhard for him to let go of,
because he gets a benefit for it.
You know, it's a part of hislife that he doesn't like, but
(32:04):
it also helps him cope with therest of his life, and I'm not
saying that it's appropriate,but I am saying that it's
serving a purpose that allowshim to move forward in a way
that allows him to be who he isor he wants to be with his
family.
But there are still so manydetrimental things even in that
thinking.
Trisha Jamison (32:24):
And I think that that's what's so challenging
for spouses is to understandthat that is even a coping
mechanism.
It's like how in the worldcould that possibly be a coping
mechanism.
I go back to the.
Tony Overbay (32:36):
Every behavior is a need-seeking behavior and
that's where I was going to saywhen you were talking about yeah
, it makes sense that, how wouldshe not think it's about her?
But he has been coping this wayand it wasn't a childhood
adaptation as a way to get adopamine dump to check out, to
feel excited.
So that's the coping, that'sthe adaptation that he brings
(32:58):
into the marriage, and so manypeople I work with they do
assume that when I get marriedthen it will go away.
But it is a coping.
That's why I go so big on it'sa coping mechanism that they
bring into the marriage and itwas an adaptation that served
them to some point.
So it doesn't matter how muchsex they're having, or so when
she's saying, if I fulfilled you, you wouldn't do this, that's
(33:22):
again where I want to take astep back and that's why I go so
big on the concept of a copingmechanism.
There's the idea that somecoping mechanisms are more
socially acceptable.
Mine has always been exercise,I mean it just has, and
sometimes I feel very fortunate,not sometimes.
I often feel very fortunate thatmine has had a social
acceptability, but I nowrecognize that it was my so
desperate need to feel seen orunderstood or matter Couldn't
(33:45):
stop at a half marathon Couldn'tstop at a full marathon had to
run a hundred miles.
You know that's excessive.
But, it's like so.
It was an adaptive need seekingbehavior to help me cope with
things.
But now maybe spinal surgerywas the thing that said it did
you well for a while, but alittle maladaptive over time.
Trisha Jamison (34:04):
Right.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
And I think too that you know,especially at a 13-year-old and
younger, their little brains arelike sponges and it's soaking
up the instant reward of thedopamine dump.
And I think too, when they getthat dopamine hit, it creates a
shortcut for his brain and itstill craves more, which I think
(34:29):
sometimes pushes him towardeven riskier behaviors,
especially as he gets older, sohe can continue to feel that
rush again.
So I appreciate that piece asI've learned more about how they
start that process and whenthey're stressed and when
(34:50):
they're trying to figure lifeout and they feel awkward or
uncomfortable out, and they feelawkward or uncomfortable.
That makes them feel, you know,for a very short time it makes
them feel okay and so, yeah,okay, no, this is really good.
Tony Overbay (35:04):
It's.
This is where I wanted to get alittle nerdy when he said the
the, the part where he's movedon to things that he never
thought he would do.
Right, um, there's a conceptcalled the coolidge effect and
there's a, the person I thinkexplained this.
The best is this uh, kevinmageris.
He's a psychiatrist called theCoolidge effect, and there's a
the person I think explainedthis the best is this Kevin
Majerus.
He's a psychiatrist that worksout of Harvard Medical School,
and so, oh and this goes back towhat Jeff was talking about
(35:26):
yeah, and Jeff and my day, mydad had a stash of magazines
that were under a get rid of thevanity in the bathroom, so I
had to be home, he had to begone.
You know I had to be home, hehad to be gone.
You know I had to wait.
So there were, it just wasn't aconstant flood of that.
It was.
So kids now with their phonesand with the way that access to
social media and streaming videoI think this will make sense
(35:47):
here.
So this Coolidge effect, kevinMajera said scientists have
discovered that if you place amale rat in a cage with a
receptive female, they will mate.
But once done, the male ratwill not mate more times, even
if the female is still receptive.
He loses sexual interest.
But if right after you put inanother willing female, he will
immediately mate again, and thena third, and so on until he
nearly dies.
And that effect has been foundin every and he says every
(36:09):
animal studied, and this iscalled the Coolidge effect.
Now that's where we get into theconcept of dopamine.
So dopamine is the drug ofdesire.
When you see somethingdesirable, your brain pours out
dopamine, saying go for it, doit, do whatever it takes.
So then dopamine fixes yourattention on that desirable
object, giving you the power ofconcentration, and this is why I
thought it makes so much sense.
So when somebody clicks andsees a new pornographic image,
(36:30):
his lower brain thinks this isthe real thing, this is the lady
he must win over with all hismight.
And so he gets an enormousdopamine flood in his upper
brain, causing a wild amount ofelectrical energy.
The first exposure to a newfemale who is a potential mate
wasn't something that happenedto a lot of our early ancestors.
Maybe once in their lives Earlycaveman poured out all the
dopamine you know, or you seethe animal kingdom, the gorilla
(36:52):
beats his chest and throws dirtand stuff around and they're
like it is.
I will do everything I can toget this one willing female.
So the brain thinks this is areally big deal.
It doesn't know that now thegame has completely changed.
It doesn't understand thatthese are virtual females only.
So with each new one it causesanother flood of dopamine, time
after time, click after click.
As long as he continues, it's adopamine binge.
(37:12):
Here's why pornography causes avicious circle.
When somebody views pornography, he gets overstimulated by
dopamine, so his brain destroyssome dopamine receptors.
This makes him feel depleted.
So he goes back to pornography,but having fewer dopamine
receptors.
This time it requires more toget the same dopamine thrill,
but this causes his brain todestroy more receptors, so he
feels an even greater need forpornography to stimulate him.
So as guys keep gaming thedopamine system, they have to
(37:34):
find they have to usepornography for longer and
longer periods to have the sameeffect and they have to visit
more and more sites.
You have to stimulate.
Then eventually another emotion, fear or disgust or shock or
surprise.
So for porn use you need tostart moving to kinkier things,
things that make you afraid orthings that make you feel a bit
sick, and so you startexperimenting with various
perversions, and that's where Ihave seen, time after time time,
(37:55):
somebody that is telling methey're working on it and
they're not worried about that.
I'll bring awareness about theCoolidge effect often, and I
think it does go back to if it'sthere and it's a coping
mechanism and it's available andit becomes almost a ritual.
Then the person this is what'shappening.
So then they typically do spendmore and more time, longer and
(38:15):
longer, and I've worked withplenty of people not trying to
be dramatic, but who would havenever in a million years thought
that they would start lookingat what they're looking at or
then start acting outside oflooking at images to go to be,
because that's where people needthe dopamine fast and they need
(38:38):
to be able to get away fromdevices or to be able to even
just get a reset, because thatwill avoid getting on to those
worse and worse areas the brainis so amazing in this.
Jeff Jamison (38:49):
I just think this is such a cool thing how it
adapts to things.
This is a similar thing that wesee in medicine.
That's called the opioidanalgesic effect, where if
you're a person that has achronic pain issue and you're
treated with an opioid, thenover time that opioid won't work
(39:11):
as well because your bodydown-regulates the amount of
opioid receptors so that youneed more opioid in order to get
the same effect, and so it's avery interesting effect that
also that Coolidge obviouslycame up with.
Tony Overbay (39:30):
Actually, I have to tell you, dr Jeff the reason
it's called the Coolidge effectis kind of funny.
It's from President Coolidgeand apparently they were touring
a poultry factory and I willget this story wrong.
But it's called the CoolidgeEffect is kind of funny.
It's from President Coolidgeand apparently they were touring
a poultry factory and I willget this story wrong, but it's
really funny.
And so then Mrs Coolidge walksby and you can never tell if
this is a wives' tale.
But I mean it is literallycalled the Coolidge Effect and
(39:50):
where they tell the female thatthe male can mate over and over
again, like they're pointingthat out about this male rooster
.
Then when the president comesby they tell him that.
Oh, she says, make sure andtell that to the president when
he comes through this part ofthe tour.
So when the president comesthen he just says, wait, you're
(40:11):
saying it's with more than onefemale.
Like, so then it was, you know,mic drop, so she thought she
got him, and then he's sayingyeah, oh my gosh yeah right, I
know insert symbol and you knowdrum.
Anyway, I didn't mean to cut youoff, but it's like that is.
That is a funny part.
That is why it's called thecoolidge effect.
Trisha Jamison (40:27):
Oh, interesting interesting, I didn't know but.
Tony Overbay (40:29):
but I like where you're going with this, dr jeff,
because I've never understoodthat opioid part where people,
yeah, yeah, they need more andmore.
It makes sense Opioid-inducedhyperalgesia.
Jeff Jamison (40:38):
So basically, when you're not under opioid effect,
then what you normally might'vecalled yourself a person with
high pain tolerance, you becomea person with low pain tolerance
, and even the smallest amountof pain seems like a lot of pain
, and this is a it's awell-known effect and one of the
(40:58):
downsides to using long-termopioids.
Wow, that makes sense.
Trisha Jamison (41:03):
Yeah, that is fascinating, actually, Going
back to Keith's question, whenhe talks about how he has
spiraled into dark placesexplicit chats, paid
subscriptions and he stunnedhimself asking why can't I break
free?
And, despite his efforts, whatmight be driving this escalation
and how can he uncover thosedeeper triggers?
(41:25):
So we've talked a little bitabout that, but where can he
start the process of kind of hisfirst steps?
Tony Overbay (41:35):
And again, in a perfect world it is
uncomfortable and it is go finda therapist or a coach that
specializes, because often I dofind that people go to people
that don't specialize and thenit is more of just a check the
box.
And I think Jeff was talkingabout yeah, the guy will have a
need to confess.
And then this is where I doview this as a bit of the and I
(41:58):
know I'm in this emotionallyimmature lens currently, but it
is not helpful.
I mean, it's a step.
I was going to say confession.
When somebody says, okay, fine,I'll go, first of all, that is
not the attitude to then go gethelp.
But then I'm going to gobecause I want to check the box.
So then I'm going to go and I'mbasically okay, I did it, and
I'm just basically confessing.
And then I can have the personsay, hey, you're not like, even
(42:20):
if they came to me, it was okay.
Yeah, no, you're a human andyou're not broken and you're
going to figure this out andwhatever.
Well, that makes the personfeel better.
So now I feel better, so I'mgood and I did it and that.
So they need to go get help.
But but even in a grand schemeof things, if they can start
listening to more things,reading more things.
Just don't ignore it.
(42:41):
And that's what the brain doesso often.
Or people do in their moreemotionally immature state is
okay, no, I, I get it now, Iwon't do it again.
That makes them feel better inthat moment and so a lot of
people that are going to hearthis at some point you know
they're going to say, okay, no,that makes sense, get it now.
I don't even really need to gotalk to anybody.
Got Coolidge effect, got it.
I need to not beat myself up.
(43:01):
You the discomfort of lookingfor help.
It will be uncomfortable, Idon't need help.
So he's still at that space of.
He still wants to hide and notdivulge, even though he feels
like he's divulged.
Trisha Jamison (43:41):
He still hasn't allowed himself to be humble
enough.
I feel like to seek that helpbecause he just wants to control
what he can control.
So I feel like these patternsoften stem from we just kind of
talked about this.
You know the unaddressedemotions, and that could be from
stress.
You know the extra stress isfrom work or a disconnection at
(44:04):
home.
At times it could createanything.
That's what we've been talkingabout and it could also be from
old feelings of inadequacy.
One of the things that I try tohave my couples do is to begin
to notice what's happeninginside him before he hits the
urge, because so often there'sthese triggers and you kind of
(44:25):
start to feel something and soit's taking a second before that
action happens.
And pause I love that word,that's my favorite word is pause
and to just breathe, becausewhen you can get oxygen to the
brain you can start, put yourCEO back online and you're not
going after these urges like youcan just start to think, you
(44:48):
can allow yourself to to think,and so, for instance, if
somebody you know he had a longday and the kids are arguing, he
feels overwhelmed.
If somebody you know he had along day and the kids are
arguing.
He feels overwhelmed, is justtaking a pause and recognizing
am I stressed, am I lonely and Ilove the halt you know, hungry.
Tony Overbay (45:12):
What is it?
Hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
There's a better one.
That's a blast and the onlyreason I want to.
I never remember what it all isand I just like the B because
it's bored and I think one ofthe main triggers is boredom
People often think that it's Isaw.
I saw a beautiful woman orsomething it's like.
It's bored, bored andaccessible, I think is often the
main ones really.
Trisha Jamison (45:28):
So I think it's to just kind of go a little
deeper inside and allow yourselfto feel some of these, when you
start to feel a trigger, and toput something else in that
place, whether deep breathing,just writing a couple thoughts
down how he's feeling in anotebook.
What do you think about theseapps?
(45:49):
There's an app called Fortify.
Do they really offer dailyprogress?
Tony Overbay (45:56):
I heard it's like well, this is what I like.
I always like when we starttalking like the therapist and
coach, just like chocolate,peanut butter and orisa's,
because I, I notice right nowit's hard for me to not just
wanted to say I mean, you knowwhat the person, as long as
they're now aware they weren't.
You know, they didn't know whatthey didn't know.
Now they know, but they're notgoing to do like I.
I know that this is the way thatmost things play out, but that
(46:18):
part where now they're aware butthey don't really do, is often
the longest period.
And they got to get to the partwhere they're doing more than
they don't and eventually theybecome and and I, and so it's
still so funny in my inherentnature to just I want to tell
somebody what to do, but it'sstill like I mean, and I like
when you're saying, hey, do this, like, write it down, take a
breath, you know, and I thinkthat's where I always make the
joke about, and then, if youdon't, then let me know.
(46:41):
You know what Trish's advice is.
Trisha Jamison (46:42):
We'll come up with something else.
Tony Overbay (46:45):
And what I like about that is.
So the apps they're great,except for when they don't work.
They work until they don't.
So I have had many clientsstart them, stop them, start
them, stop them.
And then they're like man, Ican't even stay on the app, and
so my job is like saying okay,did it, was it working?
Well, totally was.
But then I stopped using it andlike let's go back to it.
It totally was, so then startusing it again.
(47:06):
Yeah, but I?
But what if I don't keep it up?
Well, we'll see about that.
You know, let's do it until youdon't.
And if you don't, why didn'tyou?
Because sometimes it's honestlyyeah, I forgot about it, I'm
like cool.
What are ways that we can workon to not forget and so that's?
Where I think people are almosttrying to convince themselves
see how broken I am.
I might as well just go do itagain.
Jeff Jamison (47:27):
But here's where accountability and commitment
therapy comes in.
I mean, this is where you'vegot to come up with your own.
Why?
Tony Overbay (47:34):
Eventually for sure.
Trisha Jamison (47:37):
You've got to come up with your own.
Why?
Eventually for sure, you've gotto come up with your own.
What am I going to do instead?
That humility piece?
Jeff Jamison (47:39):
absolutely yes.
You build in the pause and thenyou come up with your own.
Here's what I'm going to doinstead, before I get down that
slippery slope and into themiddle of the quagmire.
If a person can go, all right,whenever this happens, what I'm
going to do is I'm going to callmy wife, or I'm going to get up
(48:02):
and walk away from the computerand do something else, or
whatever it is.
And whatever that is.
If you catch yourself early,maybe it's just late at night
and you just need to go to bed.
Tony Overbay (48:17):
Then go to bed.
Go to bed.
Yes, that's Jeff Smith.
That tired piece is real.
Jeff Jamison (48:24):
You know it'll help you so much, and it's
finding out what you need to doand trying them on.
You can't just go well, if I dothis, then always it will work.
Absolutely.
You can't just go well, if I dothis, then always it will work.
There's no, always in the realmof people and knowing that
(48:44):
people are not always, never,and black and white and all
those things, you have to beable to have a spectrum of
options.
Tony Overbay (48:53):
Yeah, things work until they don't.
They work until they don't, andthat doesn't mean that it
didn't work or that it now okay.
Jeff Jamison (48:59):
Or it won't work in the future.
Tony Overbay (49:00):
It won't work in the future, and that's the
continual moving forward in thatthere's an absence of shame in
that thing that one is doingdime.
Trisha Jamison (49:12):
How you do one thing is how you do everything.
So if that person oftentimesjust gives up and quits,
something gets too hard and theydon't want to do it, that may
be a personality issue.
Or when a person is focusing onsomething for the wrong reason,
that could also be why he stops.
If he's doing it for the spouseand not for himself, then that
(49:36):
can create resentment and but itcan create the non-consistency
he's not, he's not followingthrough because he's he doesn't
really mean it, he's just doingit for her.
Tony Overbay (49:48):
Which is funny too , Trisha, because I and this is
where I go back to your rightand then also but if a guy
doesn't know what he doesn'tknow, and then because how many?
times have I heard somebody sayI just got to do it, I just got
to, I just got to do whatever Igot to do to save this marriage.
I do whatever I got to do toand it's like I know that's
(50:13):
actually not the case.
You and he's like man.
I'm not even doing me right,right now.
I must really be bad where it'slike man.
I hear you Tell me more aboutit, because that makes sense.
Of course I want to save mymarriage.
I'm terrified.
But then that's me saying Ijust need somebody to tell me
exactly what to do.
I can do it, check the boxesand we're good.
We're good Then that isn'tabout internal change, or yeah.
Trisha Jamison (50:35):
And that's what you just said, or Jeff's just
said, that you know it will workuntil it doesn't work because
he hasn't internally figured outthat this is, this is for him.
He really, truly wants to makethat change and one of the
things that I've had clients sayis I can't imagine being
someone different.
This has been such a part of mylife for so long.
(50:56):
I don't even know what thatlooks like and I can't even
imagine.
I don't think I can do it.
Tony Overbay (51:01):
I mean, they've already given up before they've
even tried, because it's likethey can't imagine life without
having these mechanisms thathe's been in place absolutely
yeah yeah, well, I think tony'sgot to get going here and yeah
but, man, if we have to pick upanother episode of this too, you
can tell that it's something.
Trisha Jamison (51:19):
Yeah, because we're like right in the middle,
we we need to continue focusingon some of these other questions
that he's asked.
I don't want to just leave himhanging, so let's just get on
next week and we'll start againright where we left off.
Tony Overbay (51:34):
Yeah, so, keith, hang on we're where we got to
work on those things, work onthose things.
We'll start again right wherewe left off.
Trisha Jamison (51:37):
Yeah, so Keith, hang on.
Tony Overbay (51:37):
Hang on, Keith Work on those things, work on
those things.
We'll get back to you, that'sright.
Trisha Jamison (51:42):
Okay, super Wow.
We're just scratching thesurface of Keith's powerful
story and there's so much moreto unpack His struggle to break
the cycle, rebuild trust withhis wife and find forgiveness
for himself.
We're going to dive deeper intothese questions next week in
part two, where we'll pick upright where we left off with
Tony, jeff and myself.
(52:02):
So stay tuned for morepractical steps, heartfelt
insights and hope for Keith'sjourney.
You won't want to miss it,keith.
We hear you, we see you andyou're not alone in this
struggle.
Your courage to share your painis a huge step forward and
there's hope for healing.
If you're battling pornographyand need extra support, tony's
(52:23):
the Path Back program is anincredible resource.
Reach out to him and we'llinclude the contact information
in the show notes below.
And for couples who arestruggling with no connection,
barely speaking, have hadbetrayal, trauma, navigating
heartache or feeling like thelove you once had has faded or
is lost, please know there's away forward.
(52:45):
My eight-month Healing Heartsprogram is a comprehensive,
transformative journey designedto help you build trust,
rediscover intimacy and helpheal deep wounds.
With one-on-one coaching calls,engaging worksheets and fun
activities and tools to bringyou closer together than ever,
(53:10):
you will find that love again,you will find that beauty on the
other side.
It's a space to find clarityand hope.
So please reach out to me atTrishaJamisonCoaching at
gmailcom to start theconversation today To our
amazing listeners.
If this episode moved you,please share it with someone who
needs it and hit subscribe.
Please leave us a review andhelp us grow this beautiful
community of hearts just likeyours.
Your stories and questions arewhat make this space so special.
(53:33):
So please send us yourquestions at Trisha
Jamisonaching at gmailcom, andthank you for joining us today.
Stay strong, keep shining andwe'll see you next week for part
two of Key Story.
Goodbye everyone.
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&AFiles, delighted to share
today's gems of wisdom with you.
Your questions light up ourshow, fueling the engaging
(53:53):
dialogues that make ourcommunity extra special.
Keep sending your questions toTrisha Jamison coaching at
gmailcom.
Your curiosity is our compass.
Please hit subscribe, spreadthe word and let's grow the
circle of insight and communitytogether.
I'm Trisha Jamison signing off.
Stay curious, keep thriving andkeep smiling, and I'll catch
you on the next episode.
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