December 21, 2025 • 33 mins
Today on The Quiet Warrior Podcast, I’m joined by Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves — leadership strategist, consultant, coach, facilitator, historian, and author of Leading with Courage: A Career-Long Guide for Idealistic Women. With more than 25 years in higher education and nonprofit leadership, Jodi brings both scholarship and lived wisdom to the conversation.
This episode is a gentle but powerful exploration of leadership for introverted, values-driven women — especially those working inside imperfect systems. Jodi shares how her own career journey moved from the pursuit of knowledge to the pursuit of connection, what she learned about navigating large groups as an introvert, and why values-driven leadership is essential for creating inclusive, compassionate workplaces.
Together, we explore:
- How introverts can thrive in leadership by honouring their energy, creating boundaries, and trusting the process
- Context awareness as a powerful (and often overlooked) leadership strength — especially for women and women of colour
- Why idealistic women need a different kind of leadership guidance than what mainstream corporate literature offers
- The emotional agility and relational intelligence women bring to organisational life
- How values-based decisions become catalysts for courage, clarity, and career direction
- The importance of intergenerational wisdom, and why Boomers, Millennials, and Gen Z have more to learn from each other than we think
- Jodi also shares remarkable stories from her book, including moments when women took a stand for their values — sometimes at the cost of their job — and how these choices shaped their leadership identities.
One Thing Jodi Wants You to Remember
“Standing up for your values — even in small moments — is what builds the courage to make bigger, life-changing decisions later on.”
Resources & Links
Get Jodi’s Book:
Leading with Courage: A Career-Long Guide for Idealistic Women
Learn more about Jodi’s work:
Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves | JVD Consulting LLC
Join The Visible Introvert Community for resources to help you thrive as an introvert: serenalow.com.au
If You Enjoyed This Episode…
Please leave a 5-star rating and review to help us reach more introverts, quiet achievers, and idealistic leaders around the world.
This episode was edited by Aura House Productions
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Serena Lo.
If you are used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial, and lack of goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith a calm, introspective, and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique, andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work, anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Hello and welcome.
Today's guest on the QuietWarrior Podcast is Dr.
Jodi Vandenberg Daves,leadership strategist, coach,
(00:46):
consultant, facilitator, editor,and author.
Her work with organizations andindividuals builds on more than
25 years of experience in highereducation, nonprofit leadership
power, authorship, powerteaching, and mentoring.
Jodi empowers leaders andfacilitates career journeys for
(01:06):
people at all stages with anemphasis on values, social
impact, and creating inclusivecommunities.
She is especially committed todeveloping diverse women's
leadership power and promotingworkplaces that help mothers and
other caregivers succeed.
Jodi's new book, Leading withCourage, A Career-Long Guide for
(01:26):
Idealistic Women, offers a boldand practical framework for
women seeking purpose-drivencareers grounded in justice and
authenticity.
Welcome, Jodi, to the QuietWarrior Podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
It's such a pleasure to be here.
I'm really excited for theconversation.
Thank you for having me.
You're very welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Jodi, could you start off by telling us a bit
about your own experience withintroversion and how it was like
for you at work when you had toface large groups?
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
Um, you know, it's somethingthat I think when I was growing
up, I don't know that I fullyidentified as an introvert, but
when I look back, I reallyenjoyed the sort of quietness of
being a student and then ascholar.
And branching out into learningto teach was a really big
learning curve for me.
(02:17):
And I think some of it was thejust wow, it's a lot to be up in
front of these groups andsounding smart.
And I think part of my journeyhas been from that pursuit of
knowledge for myself andespecially for social change out
into the classroom.
And then also maybe more intospaces where I can do smaller
(02:39):
connecting and mentoring.
And so, and that's, you know,really been part of my career
shift too.
I will say that I learned tolove public speaking over time.
It took a long time.
I think it took longer thanaverage for me.
But once I got good at it, Ireally it became something I
enjoy.
And I think that's partlybecause there's a role.
You have a role when you'redoing that.
(03:00):
That's a little different thanbeing in an amorphous group
where you're not sure what yourrole is.
And so I feel like it, it, itworks with me being an
introvert, but then I I havethat kind of accordion thing
where I expand out and then Ikind of um compress in.
And I know that you talk aboutthat quite a bit on your
podcast.
(03:20):
Um, but I think one of thethings I've also learned to
honor is my ability for deepconnections with people that
often happen happen in smallerspaces.
And again, I think that's partof the journey from the pursuit
of knowledge to the pursuit ofconnection and mutual
empowerment.
And so I still love pursuingknowledge and talking about
(03:40):
interesting intellectual thingsand the grand sweep of history
as a historian.
Uh, and I and I do enjoy somepublic speaking.
But I, you know, I think thatpart of the reason I didn't go
to a normal retirement age atthe university is that it was a
lot for me.
I remember like the meeting whenI would meet my first day of
students, I would say to myself,wow, if I had three classes on a
(04:03):
Tuesday, 85 minutes each, Iwould say, I just met like a
hundred people.
Like, that's a lot.
You know, and by about the thirdday of class, more of those
people would become people inthe sense that like they would
start speaking.
We would start developing adynamic.
But I learned to realize, wow,that's just a lot of launching
energy for me in a new semesteras an introvert.
(04:25):
So kind of learning to take careof myself around that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
I would love to hear more about how you took care of
yourself in the midst of that.
But before that, I wanted tohighlight also the pursuit of
knowledge that became a pursuitfor connection.
That is beautiful and that ispowerful.
I think a lot of our introvertsand quiet achievers can relate
to that because we're alllifelong learners.
(04:50):
We crave the next new thing,finding out more.
We're just endlessly curious.
But it's one thing to pursueknowledge uh in a vacuum.
We can be quite happy inside ourbubble doing that, and we don't
have to talk to anybody aboutit.
But that pursuit of connectionthat requires us to, as you say,
it requires an expense ofenergy.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
And you said that you know, those 100 people
became people.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
And I love that that observation because I I remember
times when I'm speaking to agroup of people and they are
other people, but then when youlook at each of them, and then
you recognize them and yourealize each of them is an
individual, each one withputting out their own energy,
putting out their own ideas, youknow, impressing their their
(05:38):
uniqueness upon the group, andthat affects the group dynamic.
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
So that change that noticing, wow, that is powerful.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So how did you take care ofyourself in the midst of
speaking to a hundred people aday?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
I think I had a lot of good boundaries around space.
You know, uh throughout many ofmy years as a professor, I
would, okay, I would expend thatenergy on my heavy teaching
days, and then I would go andretreat to the coffee shop and
do my write my lectures andthings like that on my
non-teaching days.
Even when I was a departmentchair, I would go, well, I'm a
department chair in theafternoon.
(06:18):
You know, I mean, I'll make I'llbe sure to make myself available
to people, but faculty come andgo anyway.
It wasn't like I needed to bearound all the time.
And so I think spatialboundaries were important to me.
And then um learning to trustthe process of, okay, it's going
to be like this.
There's really actually no wayto make it that much easier to
(06:39):
meet that many new people andget to know them in the first
couple of weeks.
You just have to sort of do thebasic self-care things to
sustain yourself while you relaxinto, okay, this is not just a
random group of people.
This is that class that has thisparticular dynamic that has, you
know, these two or three peoplethat I've already gotten to know
in week two and I'm excited tosee them.
(06:59):
And, you know, we might chatafter class or they might come
to my office hours.
I also, you know, sometimeswould just um in some of my
smaller classes, I would kind ofshift the things around so that
um I would even re-jigger theway that we organize class.
So I would have office hoursignups for one brief
(07:19):
one-on-ones with me that I woulddo over two or three class
periods if it was a researchintensive or if it was one of my
leadership classes where Ireally wanted to get to know
them as individuals.
And that also was helpful forme.
Um yeah, those are a few things.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
Those few things are very useful things because I
think what you said particularlywas about trusting the process.
And there is an element there Ithink the the quiet achiever can
relate to because we sometimesstruggle to trust in our attempt
to control everything, tomanage, to anticipate, to
(07:57):
prepare, because we don't likewinging it.
We don't like making things upon the fly or having to respond
in the moment.
It's uh we just wireddifferently.
We like preparation and youknow, loads of it, the more the
better.
So for you saying that you know,trust the process, uh know that
it doesn't get very much easier.
There's there's not that manythings you can do to tweak it
(08:18):
because we're always looking forways to tweak and refine and you
know shorten the learning curveand all those things.
But this is also aboutrespecting uh the process, that
this is how academia works, thisis how your groups work, right?
These are the people that makeup the dynamic that influence
how you react and how you teachand how you communicate with
(08:39):
them in a way that they canlearn effectively and receive
the outcomes that they are theysigned up for.
So I think being sensitive toall those things.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Thank you.
And and I think I, you know, Ilearned, I mean, part of my I
think my leadership was tryingto empower other faculty to
teach the way they wanted toteach and what worked for them.
And I I once co-taught a classwith a person who was was a
wonderful teacher, but he wasactually way more, I will say,
almost touchy-feely than I am.
I think I found a little morecomfort in in kind of being
(09:11):
behind my academic mask a littlebit.
And, you know, I learned fromthat, but I thought, but it's
not exactly me.
And I'm also, you know, in inthe in a especially in a history
classroom.
Um, and I'm not someone who Ithink sort of has spent a lot of
time in let's do an icebreakerkinds of environments, or let's
(09:31):
do a lot of sharing, partlybecause of the field that I was
trained in, which is history,which even in the publishing
realm for historians, we don'ttend to publish with others like
a lot of other like economistsand others do.
There's that sort of like stayin your lane a little bit, but
but respect what you bring toyour lane.
Kind of learn to value thestrengths and who I am and and
the challenges of being a littlebit more introverted.
(09:54):
Uh, but just if I can own that,I can also help other people
around me own their strengths asteachers and in other ways as
professionals.
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
I think that's a very important point to
recognize.
When you said mask, all of us, Ithink, wear one at least, one
mask.
And when we go outprofessionally, we show up as a
certain kind of person, we puton a certain persona, and that
is necessary to get the workdone.
But you're also saying at thesame time to recognize what is
(10:25):
it that you bring to your rolethat is different from other
people?
What is it that makes uh makesit easier for your students to
receive what you are teachingthem in a particular way that
helps them?
So that is your unique strength.
And each of us has got a set ofthose uh skills and strengths
that we need to recognize andembrace and use more.
(10:46):
And that is a beautiful thing.
So, what uh inspired you toleave academia and move into
business?
What was that like for you?
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
I think I've always had an entrepreneurial streak
and um always play around withideas of this would be fun to
do, that would be fun to do, butI have a lot of papers to grade.
And um I was in academia a longtime.
I felt like I had just done somany things there.
I I literally created and taught21 different undergraduate
courses.
(11:14):
I ran large federal grants, Idid a lot of researching and
writing, I did a lot of justdifferent special projects.
I did academic leadership, I wasa department chair, I was a
faculty fellow helping mentorpeople on grants, all kinds of
you know, cool things.
But I think, you know, I startedto feel like I've explored a lot
(11:35):
of the corners of the box.
I had even stepped into sort ofpart-time, uh part-time work at
the university to do somenonprofit directing for my uh
diversity council in mycommunity, which was really
rewarding as well.
Um, but I I felt like I had Iwanted to kind of leave when I
was still in a good place withpeople and uh kind of doing well
(11:58):
with my work, but also able toexplore some other things.
And I think some of that doesconnect to how I framed it,
which is that pursuit ofconnection and wanting to do
that in different ways anddifferent spaces outside of
maybe the bureaucracy of theuniversity and bringing my
mentoring strength that I'vereally had developed over the
years into coaching and bringingmy kind of um speaking and
(12:21):
educating on empowering diverseleaders into other spaces as
well.
Because I had done really sinceprobably around 2012, I'd been
doing quite a bit of speaking inthe community.
And um, and you know, it's funto make your classroom a little
bit bigger, but also just learnfrom other people, engage people
outside of the academic world,um, and develop those coaching
(12:42):
and online learning umexperiences that I've been
doing.
Plus, I really, you know, it wasdifficult to envision, as my
last role, I was departmentchair, to envision finishing the
writing project that became thisbook.
Even though I had a sabbaticalto do it, I had a lot more.
I knew I wanted to get done as awriter and an author.
(13:05):
Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Let's talk about the book.
So it's called Leading withCourage: a career-long guide for
idealistic women.
What inspired it and who did youwrite it for?
SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
Well, I taught a course on gender and leadership,
gender, race, and leadership wasthe name of it by the end, um,
for quite a number of years.
And it was hard to find readingsthat inspired my students.
And part of the reason for thatis that the leadership
literature, it tend there tendsto be a big gap between the
people writing those and thepeople in my classroom.
(13:37):
And that's not just the peoplein my classroom.
I would also say the people inmy community, um, it tends to be
very um coastal elite focused,big corporate names, CEOs, and
even just the aspirations where,you know, nice girls get the
corner office.
Um, and and there's nothingwrong with, I want women to
aspire to the highest levels,and we absolutely need more
(13:59):
women at the highest levels,more diverse women, more people
of uh, you know, more genderdiversity altogether.
But I wanted to find a way totalk about leadership more
expansively.
So um, and and how we're, youknow, I saw leadership in my
students.
I see leadership in, you know, Isee leadership in the young
professionals I mentored in themid-career and the people,
(14:21):
people who are older.
And so I wanted to create aleadership, a kind of manual
that is really expansive of thewhole career journey, but is
also, and this is also what thebig divergence from I think a
lot of the other leadershipliterature, values-based,
particularly progressive socialjustice values, that diversity,
(14:44):
equity, inclusion, those values.
Um, you know, I had theprivilege of working with so
many young people who weredriven by those values and
goals.
And so I wanted to put that umthat kind of work out there.
And I love to do oral history,so I collected a lot of stories
for it, um, but I also put a lotof my own advice and experience,
(15:04):
um, you know, things I'dlearned, consulting and
coaching, it all kind of goes inthere.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
And research, research.
You know, it's research-based.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
So basically, you took all your skills, all your
experience, all your wisdom, allthe conversations as an
academic, and you put them intothe book to fill the gaps that
you had noticed between what wasout there and what people
actually needed and were lookingfor.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
I hope that's I hope that's how it lands as something
people are needing and lookingfor.
I I tried to make sure that Iwas talking to people in
different sectors of the economytoo, because a lot of the
leadership literature is onlyabout the corporate world.
I didn't, I had, you know, thecorporate world is in there.
Um, among the women Iinterviewed, the corporate world
is definitely in there.
But also in a smaller economylike the one I live in, you have
(15:52):
a lot of people who spend theirentire careers in healthcare or
in education or in government orin nonprofit work.
And as a historian, you know, Ivary into illuminating context.
And so I think that's anotherpiece that needed more
development in a lot of theadvice literature to women is
what are the contexts thatyou're experiencing?
And the context for, say,nonprofit work is often, you
(16:16):
know, scraping nickels off thefloor kind of budget situation.
And it's not sexism in thenonprofit world doesn't
necessarily look the same as ina male heavy leadership
corporate environment.
So, you know, you may be workingwith a lot of women, but the
context of underfunding and, youknow, in our in the case of the
(16:37):
United States, a hollowed-outstate that makes, you know,
providing resources reallychallenging can create sort of
burnout situations, you know,especially for young women who
are idealistic.
So I tried to really encompasssome of that context uh piece.
And and really, I believe thatcontext awareness is a very
important leadership skill.
(16:58):
It and it's a it's a skill thathelps you be sensitive to how
other people are experiencingthe context, but also to how
you're experiencing the contextand whether that context is
sustainable for you.
Maybe it's something you canlearn from for a little while,
but maybe it's not your contextforever.
But being able to identify whyis that, what's going on there,
kind of that systems thinking isI think an under sung element of
(17:24):
leadership.
SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
You mentioned idealistic women.
Yeah.
Why particularly idealisticwomen?
Well, what is it about them?
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
I had I had a challenge with the title.
Um but I think that it's aboutbeing values driven and seeing
your your work as part ofsomething bigger and and trying
to hang on to your ideals in inthe face of imperfect and
sometimes really imperfect invery gritty, challenging ways,
imperfect systems, you know, andso trying to nurture some
(18:01):
idealism and honor your values.
And I really argue in the bookthat we can empower ourselves
through through standing up forour values.
That I think that, you know, theindividualistic kind of ethos of
a lot of leadership advicesince, you know, tends to be
very transactional andadvancement oriented and, you
(18:24):
know, um, figure out your brand.
Um, it's nothing, you know,there's a lot of value in all of
that.
But I found with these womenthat I interviewed who had had
pretty purposeful careers thatthe moments of really standing
up for their values were werecritical for them in defining
who they were, in movingthemselves forward and in just
(18:46):
kind of um figuring out theimpact they wanted to make and
sticking with their purpose.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
What's an example or a story you can share from the
book about this part?
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Okay, so one story is someone who is um older now,
so she's actually a baby boomer.
We do still have some babyboomers in the workplace.
But when she was pretty young,she was an assistant, she was in
an assistant district attorney'soffice working there.
And she there was a victim ofsexual abuse.
Um, and this uh this person Iinterviewed was asked by her
(19:19):
boss to order a rape kit forthis young woman.
And my interviewee knew thatthis would yield nothing
because, and she was very young,she was like 14 years old, but
it would yield nothing becausethe abuse was not recent and it
would re-traumatize her.
And so my interviewee um said, Iwill not do it.
(19:40):
And they said, Well, you need todo it.
And then she called someone sheknew, she called a nurse, and
she said, I'm right, aren't I?
I'm right, that this is notgonna help.
And indeed that was the case.
And this person said, Um, I'venever done this in my whole
life.
I slammed the door, I and I quitthe job.
And I knew that it was the firsttime I'd really.
Thought about systems beingimperfect.
(20:01):
I was in my late 20s and I'm I'mparaphrasing here, but I knew
that I couldn't keep this job ifI wouldn't do what my boss said,
but I couldn't do what my bosssaid.
And so I went on to go, Idecided right then and there I
needed to go to graduate schooland and kind of make my own
journey a little different.
And so that would, it led to anempowering decision by drawing
(20:21):
that kind of line in the sand.
And I think, you know, um kindof more less dramatically, you
know, one of the women Iinterviewed said, I was asked to
lie once when I was, you know,pretty young.
And I was like, I'm I'm notgonna do that.
And I realized that those littledecisions empowered me to make
(20:41):
bigger decisions as time wenton.
Um, and then, you know, it canshow up in so many other ways,
like in how, you know, one ofthe amazing leaders I
interviewed who does lead herorganization.
She's the top of herorganization.
Um her part of her values inaction are making things really
consensus-driven in herorganization and having all
(21:02):
kinds of feedback mechanisms andhaving people have ways to vote
and have impact input on, say,their health insurance plan.
They all, as a they all, andthis is a large organization,
they recently decided um andworked it out through various
feedback mechanisms andcommittees and voting processes
to go to a four-day work week.
And those are things that shethat are living her values for
(21:27):
her.
Um, and and those, so those area few examples.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Fantastic examples.
What I'm hearing is regardlessof age or where you are in your
career, women can exert orpractice leadership even without
the leadership role.
Because this is you're talkingabout honoring your values,
drawing a line in the set.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Absolutely.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
And even coming to understand what your values are,
or I mean, maybe it's just maybeit's just speaking up in one
little situation.
Um, it just um it doesn'talways, again, it doesn't always
have to be a dramatic quitexperience or but but it's and
it's like learning that who youwant to work with and how you
(22:16):
want to spend your time and andwhat projects, if you have any
choice at all over your workassignment, how you can choose
projects that are going to alignwith your values.
So it's some of that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
So this is to do with self-awareness and also
being willing to advocate or tospeak up for your values when it
counts.
What do you see as women'sunique strengths that they bring
as leaders?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
So I think the context awareness is one
important piece of this becausewomen, and especially in the in
the US, I'll say women of color,there's a lot of research on
this, you know, having to moveand operate in systems that they
usually did not create and werecreated, not necessarily with
them in mind.
(23:07):
And going into spaces, if you'rethe only woman on a, you know, a
board in a tech company, or ifyou're the only woman of color
as a faculty member in a in adepartment in a predominantly
white university, you are seeingthings from a little bit
different angle than a lot ofother people do.
Um, and you're also sometimeshaving to code switch with how
(23:30):
you speak and with differentgroups that you interact with.
I mean, another example I cangive is, and I've heard this
many times from women who becomemothers, all of a sudden their
workplace looks different.
Oh, so we don't have anywhere topump for nursing mothers.
Oh, so this is what our leavepolicies are like.
Oh, so this is the limits of ourhealth insurance.
Um, and so that contextawareness from being feeling
(23:55):
like outsiders in any way, thoseare challenging experiences that
can be scarring and can be awfuland can drive people out, but
they can also be the stuff ofwisdom and leadership skills.
And that's why there's a lot ofresearch showing so many people
like to work with women leaders.
They do a lot more.
There's research showing thatthey are women leaders are more
likely to do diversity, equity,inclusion work.
(24:17):
They're more likely to say theyvalue that and actually do it.
Um they're more likely than menleaders to help other workers
manage burnout, which is a hugeissue in the workplace.
And so some of those pro-socialvalues that women are often
socialized into, now, of course,that can be exploited.
You know, as I started talkingabout nonprofits, and I and how
(24:39):
it's always a challenging kindof needle to thread.
How do we both name and claimthe emotional superpowers that
women tend to have?
Not all women, don't get mewrong, but women tend to have,
but not exploit them.
And I would add to thatemotional agility, um, ability
to listen to lots of differentperspectives.
(25:00):
Again, we have research showingthat women leaders are more
likely to take into accountmultiple perspectives before
making a decision.
And those are all things in a inan environment, our our
workplace environments now thatare so full of rapid change.
Um we and relationship buildinglike that, and the ability to
manage conflict and beemotionally agile and pay
(25:20):
attention to different groupsand constituencies, those are
what's needed.
I mean, the research literaturecalls it transformational
leadership.
Um, and it and it's women dohave a slight edge with it.
Anyone can do that.
There are men leaders who dothis, non-binary leaders who do
this, people who do this, right?
But women do tend to have alittle edge on some of these
(25:41):
things.
So hopefully those are someexamples that make sense.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Those are very helpful examples indeed.
What is one thing you want ourlisteners to take away from our
conversation today?
SPEAKER_00 (25:55):
Leadership is very expansive, and you're probably
already leading from whereveryou are.
So I would say learn to findyour strengths and get curious
about other ways to think aboutleadership skills, advocacy,
mentoring, team building, um,being the architects of
(26:17):
compassionate and innovativecultures in the workplace.
These are leadership skills thatyou can do as an introvert, that
you can do through buildingrelationships and through
building self-awareness.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
That's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (26:34):
So instead of just focusing on leadership as in a
role that I have or a title thatI have, I'm looking at
leadership from a place that Ialready occupy.
How can I do this better?
How can I foster those deepconnections with people?
How can I bring my uniquestrengths, staying in my own
lane, but at the same time alsoknowing what I care about, why I
(26:57):
care about those things, andspeaking up, communicating, I
think, much more.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
I think that is an aspect of leadership.
Absolutely.
And and that communication, um,you know, with the like you
mentioned with a lot ofintroverts, there's a
thoughtfulness to thatcommunication.
That is that is anothersuperpower.
And another woman I interviewed,yeah, I think something you said
made me think of it.
She said um that as a youngnurse, you know, she ended her
(27:24):
career as a VP in the HR realm,but you know, she had her
background was nursing.
Um, and she said, as a youngnurse, I started to realize, oh,
people are giving me moreresponsibility.
And you know, it was just thatself-awareness in and of itself
was good.
And then she said to herself,how can I do this authentically?
And I and I thought that wasjust such an important question
(27:45):
to notice, oh, moreresponsibility is coming my way.
How can I do it authentically?
Not just how can I please peopleand make sure that they are glad
they asked me to do it, but howcan I do it authentically?
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
That is next level thinking.
That goes beyond.
That's why I interviewed theseamazing women.
Yes, yes.
Wow.
Yeah, I want that for youngpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
I want I want young people to be able to, you know,
I think that's part of what Ihope this book will do is um
allow help foster some of thosethought patterns.
And oh, I could think about itthis way, even when you're
younger.
And that's part of the the joyof tapping into the wisdom of
(28:35):
some of my older interviewees.
Um, and I do hope the book alsofosters some intergenerational
conversations, because I feellike we're in a moment where
there's a lot of kind ofcultural memes about get out of
the way boomers, and Gen Z isout to lunch and whatever, you
know, just these kind of umideas that the generations don't
(28:57):
have anything to offer oneanother.
And as a historian, I'm I justcan't, I can't abide that.
Of course we do.
Of course we have a lot to offerone another.
But we need to understand thatwe do have some different
contexts generationally.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
I think that context awareness that you mentioned at
the start of this conversation,it feels like a theme that keeps
popping up in a very importantway.
Because when we understand thecontext that somebody has come
out of, you know, whatevergeneration they belong to, we
understand the bigger picture,we understand the history, what
what else was happening in theworld at that time that has
(29:32):
influenced their generation?
And then you look at it at a asa cross-generation, as a
historian, I'm sure, from a bigpicture point of view, these are
all the things that have beenhappening through the ages, or
what patterns am I noticing?
How are these patternsintersecting?
What can I do to help?
How can all of us uh understandeach other better?
How can we look beyond our ownimmediate environment and
(29:56):
constraints and problems?
And you know, this is the stuffthat I'm going through in my
daily life, but what is thisperson and that person and that
other person also going throughbecause of what has happened
before that I'm not aware of?
That's outside my time, uh mytime frame.
And I think when you when youstart looking at it that way,
that what what you've just saidabout how the generations need
(30:18):
to work together is inspiring meto think in a new direction with
that as well.
So that is that is very, veryhelpful, very um actually it's
quite exciting when you thinkabout you know what you said
about tapping into thecollective wisdom.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Hmm, I'm excited about it.
Yeah.
Yeah, like I said, I hopethere's some some more
intergenerational conversations,you know.
Um I I just and I do spend a lotof time kind of laying out the
context for the young peoplebecause I think it it's it's
also too easy for older peopleto say, well, I did it, that I
did it, I got through it, I gotthrough that hard time in my
life.
But some of the realities abouteconomic inequality and the
(30:57):
mental health challenges ofyounger people and the social
media piece and you know, thingslike that, so that it helps to
understand one another, but italso helps to understand that
older people, you know, couldhave been legally fired for
being gay in the United Statesor may have even come of age
when, you know, before thePregnancy Discrimination Act of
(31:18):
1978, they could be fired forbeing pregnant.
Um, so much racism was umallowed and you know not dealt
with.
Um, I'm not saying that that'snot still happening today too
much, but there we do have lawsand coalitions and more people
with with you know raising theirvoices on those issues.
And so the environment hasshifted in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
And where can we get a copy of your book?
SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
So uh it's distributed through Ingram Spark
and on bookshop.org to supportlocal bookstores and also at a
large retailer whose nameeveryone knows, and there's no
problem reason, probable reasonfor me to repeat it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
Excellent.
So we'll make sure to includeall the useful links for our
listeners.
And I just want to end bythanking you, Dr.
Jodi, for a very illuminatingconversation today from the
historical perspective, but alsomaking us aware of the
importance of context when we'retalking to people and about how
uh it's important to foster deepconnection with people wherever
(32:23):
we work, and about the strengthsof women in leadership.
And regardless of where we arein our career and what uh title
we have or where we are in theorganizational hierarchy, we can
still practice leadership,right?
Because first and foremost, weare leaders of ourselves.
And then when when we speak upabout our values and honor those
values, then we are also leadingothers and showing others and
(32:47):
empowering others to be leadersin their own circles too.
So I really appreciate this veryintellectual conversation with
you today.
I've learned a lot and I'm sureour listeners will as well.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Oh, thank you.
It's been such a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (33:02):
If you've enjoyed this episode of the Quiet
Warrior Podcast, be sure toleave a five-star rating and
review to help us reach moreintroverts and quiet achievers
around the world.
And for resources on how tothrive as an introvert, make
sure to join the visibleintrovert community at
serenalo.com.au.
See you on the next episode.
(33:23):
I'm so grateful that you're heretoday.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serenaloo,Quiet Warrior Coach.
(33:43):
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
Hi, I'm Serena Lo.
If you are used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial, and lack of goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith a calm, introspective, and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique, andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work, anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Hello and welcome.
Today's guest on the QuietWarrior Podcast is Dr.
Jodi Vandenberg Daves,leadership strategist, coach,
(00:46):
consultant, facilitator, editor,and author.
Her work with organizations andindividuals builds on more than
25 years of experience in highereducation, nonprofit leadership
power, authorship, powerteaching, and mentoring.
Jodi empowers leaders andfacilitates career journeys for
(01:06):
people at all stages with anemphasis on values, social
impact, and creating inclusivecommunities.
She is especially committed todeveloping diverse women's
leadership power and promotingworkplaces that help mothers and
other caregivers succeed.
Jodi's new book, Leading withCourage, A Career-Long Guide for
(01:26):
Idealistic Women, offers a boldand practical framework for
women seeking purpose-drivencareers grounded in justice and
authenticity.
Welcome, Jodi, to the QuietWarrior Podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
It's such a pleasure to be here.
I'm really excited for theconversation.
Thank you for having me.
You're very welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Jodi, could you start off by telling us a bit
about your own experience withintroversion and how it was like
for you at work when you had toface large groups?
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
Um, you know, it's somethingthat I think when I was growing
up, I don't know that I fullyidentified as an introvert, but
when I look back, I reallyenjoyed the sort of quietness of
being a student and then ascholar.
And branching out into learningto teach was a really big
learning curve for me.
(02:17):
And I think some of it was thejust wow, it's a lot to be up in
front of these groups andsounding smart.
And I think part of my journeyhas been from that pursuit of
knowledge for myself andespecially for social change out
into the classroom.
And then also maybe more intospaces where I can do smaller
(02:39):
connecting and mentoring.
And so, and that's, you know,really been part of my career
shift too.
I will say that I learned tolove public speaking over time.
It took a long time.
I think it took longer thanaverage for me.
But once I got good at it, Ireally it became something I
enjoy.
And I think that's partlybecause there's a role.
You have a role when you'redoing that.
(03:00):
That's a little different thanbeing in an amorphous group
where you're not sure what yourrole is.
And so I feel like it, it, itworks with me being an
introvert, but then I I havethat kind of accordion thing
where I expand out and then Ikind of um compress in.
And I know that you talk aboutthat quite a bit on your
podcast.
(03:20):
Um, but I think one of thethings I've also learned to
honor is my ability for deepconnections with people that
often happen happen in smallerspaces.
And again, I think that's partof the journey from the pursuit
of knowledge to the pursuit ofconnection and mutual
empowerment.
And so I still love pursuingknowledge and talking about
(03:40):
interesting intellectual thingsand the grand sweep of history
as a historian.
Uh, and I and I do enjoy somepublic speaking.
But I, you know, I think thatpart of the reason I didn't go
to a normal retirement age atthe university is that it was a
lot for me.
I remember like the meeting whenI would meet my first day of
students, I would say to myself,wow, if I had three classes on a
(04:03):
Tuesday, 85 minutes each, Iwould say, I just met like a
hundred people.
Like, that's a lot.
You know, and by about the thirdday of class, more of those
people would become people inthe sense that like they would
start speaking.
We would start developing adynamic.
But I learned to realize, wow,that's just a lot of launching
energy for me in a new semesteras an introvert.
(04:25):
So kind of learning to take careof myself around that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
I would love to hear more about how you took care of
yourself in the midst of that.
But before that, I wanted tohighlight also the pursuit of
knowledge that became a pursuitfor connection.
That is beautiful and that ispowerful.
I think a lot of our introvertsand quiet achievers can relate
to that because we're alllifelong learners.
(04:50):
We crave the next new thing,finding out more.
We're just endlessly curious.
But it's one thing to pursueknowledge uh in a vacuum.
We can be quite happy inside ourbubble doing that, and we don't
have to talk to anybody aboutit.
But that pursuit of connectionthat requires us to, as you say,
it requires an expense ofenergy.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
And you said that you know, those 100 people
became people.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
And I love that that observation because I I remember
times when I'm speaking to agroup of people and they are
other people, but then when youlook at each of them, and then
you recognize them and yourealize each of them is an
individual, each one withputting out their own energy,
putting out their own ideas, youknow, impressing their their
(05:38):
uniqueness upon the group, andthat affects the group dynamic.
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
So that change that noticing, wow, that is powerful.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So how did you take care ofyourself in the midst of
speaking to a hundred people aday?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
I think I had a lot of good boundaries around space.
You know, uh throughout many ofmy years as a professor, I
would, okay, I would expend thatenergy on my heavy teaching
days, and then I would go andretreat to the coffee shop and
do my write my lectures andthings like that on my
non-teaching days.
Even when I was a departmentchair, I would go, well, I'm a
department chair in theafternoon.
(06:18):
You know, I mean, I'll make I'llbe sure to make myself available
to people, but faculty come andgo anyway.
It wasn't like I needed to bearound all the time.
And so I think spatialboundaries were important to me.
And then um learning to trustthe process of, okay, it's going
to be like this.
There's really actually no wayto make it that much easier to
(06:39):
meet that many new people andget to know them in the first
couple of weeks.
You just have to sort of do thebasic self-care things to
sustain yourself while you relaxinto, okay, this is not just a
random group of people.
This is that class that has thisparticular dynamic that has, you
know, these two or three peoplethat I've already gotten to know
in week two and I'm excited tosee them.
(06:59):
And, you know, we might chatafter class or they might come
to my office hours.
I also, you know, sometimeswould just um in some of my
smaller classes, I would kind ofshift the things around so that
um I would even re-jigger theway that we organize class.
So I would have office hoursignups for one brief
(07:19):
one-on-ones with me that I woulddo over two or three class
periods if it was a researchintensive or if it was one of my
leadership classes where Ireally wanted to get to know
them as individuals.
And that also was helpful forme.
Um yeah, those are a few things.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
Those few things are very useful things because I
think what you said particularlywas about trusting the process.
And there is an element there Ithink the the quiet achiever can
relate to because we sometimesstruggle to trust in our attempt
to control everything, tomanage, to anticipate, to
(07:57):
prepare, because we don't likewinging it.
We don't like making things upon the fly or having to respond
in the moment.
It's uh we just wireddifferently.
We like preparation and youknow, loads of it, the more the
better.
So for you saying that you know,trust the process, uh know that
it doesn't get very much easier.
There's there's not that manythings you can do to tweak it
(08:18):
because we're always looking forways to tweak and refine and you
know shorten the learning curveand all those things.
But this is also aboutrespecting uh the process, that
this is how academia works, thisis how your groups work, right?
These are the people that makeup the dynamic that influence
how you react and how you teachand how you communicate with
(08:39):
them in a way that they canlearn effectively and receive
the outcomes that they are theysigned up for.
So I think being sensitive toall those things.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Thank you.
And and I think I, you know, Ilearned, I mean, part of my I
think my leadership was tryingto empower other faculty to
teach the way they wanted toteach and what worked for them.
And I I once co-taught a classwith a person who was was a
wonderful teacher, but he wasactually way more, I will say,
almost touchy-feely than I am.
I think I found a little morecomfort in in kind of being
(09:11):
behind my academic mask a littlebit.
And, you know, I learned fromthat, but I thought, but it's
not exactly me.
And I'm also, you know, in inthe in a especially in a history
classroom.
Um, and I'm not someone who Ithink sort of has spent a lot of
time in let's do an icebreakerkinds of environments, or let's
(09:31):
do a lot of sharing, partlybecause of the field that I was
trained in, which is history,which even in the publishing
realm for historians, we don'ttend to publish with others like
a lot of other like economistsand others do.
There's that sort of like stayin your lane a little bit, but
but respect what you bring toyour lane.
Kind of learn to value thestrengths and who I am and and
the challenges of being a littlebit more introverted.
(09:54):
Uh, but just if I can own that,I can also help other people
around me own their strengths asteachers and in other ways as
professionals.
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
I think that's a very important point to
recognize.
When you said mask, all of us, Ithink, wear one at least, one
mask.
And when we go outprofessionally, we show up as a
certain kind of person, we puton a certain persona, and that
is necessary to get the workdone.
But you're also saying at thesame time to recognize what is
(10:25):
it that you bring to your rolethat is different from other
people?
What is it that makes uh makesit easier for your students to
receive what you are teachingthem in a particular way that
helps them?
So that is your unique strength.
And each of us has got a set ofthose uh skills and strengths
that we need to recognize andembrace and use more.
(10:46):
And that is a beautiful thing.
So, what uh inspired you toleave academia and move into
business?
What was that like for you?
SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
I think I've always had an entrepreneurial streak
and um always play around withideas of this would be fun to
do, that would be fun to do, butI have a lot of papers to grade.
And um I was in academia a longtime.
I felt like I had just done somany things there.
I I literally created and taught21 different undergraduate
courses.
(11:14):
I ran large federal grants, Idid a lot of researching and
writing, I did a lot of justdifferent special projects.
I did academic leadership, I wasa department chair, I was a
faculty fellow helping mentorpeople on grants, all kinds of
you know, cool things.
But I think, you know, I startedto feel like I've explored a lot
(11:35):
of the corners of the box.
I had even stepped into sort ofpart-time, uh part-time work at
the university to do somenonprofit directing for my uh
diversity council in mycommunity, which was really
rewarding as well.
Um, but I I felt like I had Iwanted to kind of leave when I
was still in a good place withpeople and uh kind of doing well
(11:58):
with my work, but also able toexplore some other things.
And I think some of that doesconnect to how I framed it,
which is that pursuit ofconnection and wanting to do
that in different ways anddifferent spaces outside of
maybe the bureaucracy of theuniversity and bringing my
mentoring strength that I'vereally had developed over the
years into coaching and bringingmy kind of um speaking and
(12:21):
educating on empowering diverseleaders into other spaces as
well.
Because I had done really sinceprobably around 2012, I'd been
doing quite a bit of speaking inthe community.
And um, and you know, it's funto make your classroom a little
bit bigger, but also just learnfrom other people, engage people
outside of the academic world,um, and develop those coaching
(12:42):
and online learning umexperiences that I've been
doing.
Plus, I really, you know, it wasdifficult to envision, as my
last role, I was departmentchair, to envision finishing the
writing project that became thisbook.
Even though I had a sabbaticalto do it, I had a lot more.
I knew I wanted to get done as awriter and an author.
(13:05):
Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Let's talk about the book.
So it's called Leading withCourage: a career-long guide for
idealistic women.
What inspired it and who did youwrite it for?
SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
Well, I taught a course on gender and leadership,
gender, race, and leadership wasthe name of it by the end, um,
for quite a number of years.
And it was hard to find readingsthat inspired my students.
And part of the reason for thatis that the leadership
literature, it tend there tendsto be a big gap between the
people writing those and thepeople in my classroom.
(13:37):
And that's not just the peoplein my classroom.
I would also say the people inmy community, um, it tends to be
very um coastal elite focused,big corporate names, CEOs, and
even just the aspirations where,you know, nice girls get the
corner office.
Um, and and there's nothingwrong with, I want women to
aspire to the highest levels,and we absolutely need more
(13:59):
women at the highest levels,more diverse women, more people
of uh, you know, more genderdiversity altogether.
But I wanted to find a way totalk about leadership more
expansively.
So um, and and how we're, youknow, I saw leadership in my
students.
I see leadership in, you know, Isee leadership in the young
professionals I mentored in themid-career and the people,
(14:21):
people who are older.
And so I wanted to create aleadership, a kind of manual
that is really expansive of thewhole career journey, but is
also, and this is also what thebig divergence from I think a
lot of the other leadershipliterature, values-based,
particularly progressive socialjustice values, that diversity,
(14:44):
equity, inclusion, those values.
Um, you know, I had theprivilege of working with so
many young people who weredriven by those values and
goals.
And so I wanted to put that umthat kind of work out there.
And I love to do oral history,so I collected a lot of stories
for it, um, but I also put a lotof my own advice and experience,
(15:04):
um, you know, things I'dlearned, consulting and
coaching, it all kind of goes inthere.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
And research, research.
You know, it's research-based.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
So basically, you took all your skills, all your
experience, all your wisdom, allthe conversations as an
academic, and you put them intothe book to fill the gaps that
you had noticed between what wasout there and what people
actually needed and were lookingfor.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
I hope that's I hope that's how it lands as something
people are needing and lookingfor.
I I tried to make sure that Iwas talking to people in
different sectors of the economytoo, because a lot of the
leadership literature is onlyabout the corporate world.
I didn't, I had, you know, thecorporate world is in there.
Um, among the women Iinterviewed, the corporate world
is definitely in there.
But also in a smaller economylike the one I live in, you have
(15:52):
a lot of people who spend theirentire careers in healthcare or
in education or in government orin nonprofit work.
And as a historian, you know, Ivary into illuminating context.
And so I think that's anotherpiece that needed more
development in a lot of theadvice literature to women is
what are the contexts thatyou're experiencing?
And the context for, say,nonprofit work is often, you
(16:16):
know, scraping nickels off thefloor kind of budget situation.
And it's not sexism in thenonprofit world doesn't
necessarily look the same as ina male heavy leadership
corporate environment.
So, you know, you may be workingwith a lot of women, but the
context of underfunding and, youknow, in our in the case of the
(16:37):
United States, a hollowed-outstate that makes, you know,
providing resources reallychallenging can create sort of
burnout situations, you know,especially for young women who
are idealistic.
So I tried to really encompasssome of that context uh piece.
And and really, I believe thatcontext awareness is a very
important leadership skill.
(16:58):
It and it's a it's a skill thathelps you be sensitive to how
other people are experiencingthe context, but also to how
you're experiencing the contextand whether that context is
sustainable for you.
Maybe it's something you canlearn from for a little while,
but maybe it's not your contextforever.
But being able to identify whyis that, what's going on there,
kind of that systems thinking isI think an under sung element of
(17:24):
leadership.
SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
You mentioned idealistic women.
Yeah.
Why particularly idealisticwomen?
Well, what is it about them?
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
I had I had a challenge with the title.
Um but I think that it's aboutbeing values driven and seeing
your your work as part ofsomething bigger and and trying
to hang on to your ideals in inthe face of imperfect and
sometimes really imperfect invery gritty, challenging ways,
imperfect systems, you know, andso trying to nurture some
(18:01):
idealism and honor your values.
And I really argue in the bookthat we can empower ourselves
through through standing up forour values.
That I think that, you know, theindividualistic kind of ethos of
a lot of leadership advicesince, you know, tends to be
very transactional andadvancement oriented and, you
(18:24):
know, um, figure out your brand.
Um, it's nothing, you know,there's a lot of value in all of
that.
But I found with these womenthat I interviewed who had had
pretty purposeful careers thatthe moments of really standing
up for their values were werecritical for them in defining
who they were, in movingthemselves forward and in just
(18:46):
kind of um figuring out theimpact they wanted to make and
sticking with their purpose.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
What's an example or a story you can share from the
book about this part?
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Okay, so one story is someone who is um older now,
so she's actually a baby boomer.
We do still have some babyboomers in the workplace.
But when she was pretty young,she was an assistant, she was in
an assistant district attorney'soffice working there.
And she there was a victim ofsexual abuse.
Um, and this uh this person Iinterviewed was asked by her
(19:19):
boss to order a rape kit forthis young woman.
And my interviewee knew thatthis would yield nothing
because, and she was very young,she was like 14 years old, but
it would yield nothing becausethe abuse was not recent and it
would re-traumatize her.
And so my interviewee um said, Iwill not do it.
(19:40):
And they said, Well, you need todo it.
And then she called someone sheknew, she called a nurse, and
she said, I'm right, aren't I?
I'm right, that this is notgonna help.
And indeed that was the case.
And this person said, Um, I'venever done this in my whole
life.
I slammed the door, I and I quitthe job.
And I knew that it was the firsttime I'd really.
Thought about systems beingimperfect.
(20:01):
I was in my late 20s and I'm I'mparaphrasing here, but I knew
that I couldn't keep this job ifI wouldn't do what my boss said,
but I couldn't do what my bosssaid.
And so I went on to go, Idecided right then and there I
needed to go to graduate schooland and kind of make my own
journey a little different.
And so that would, it led to anempowering decision by drawing
(20:21):
that kind of line in the sand.
And I think, you know, um kindof more less dramatically, you
know, one of the women Iinterviewed said, I was asked to
lie once when I was, you know,pretty young.
And I was like, I'm I'm notgonna do that.
And I realized that those littledecisions empowered me to make
(20:41):
bigger decisions as time wenton.
Um, and then, you know, it canshow up in so many other ways,
like in how, you know, one ofthe amazing leaders I
interviewed who does lead herorganization.
She's the top of herorganization.
Um her part of her values inaction are making things really
consensus-driven in herorganization and having all
(21:02):
kinds of feedback mechanisms andhaving people have ways to vote
and have impact input on, say,their health insurance plan.
They all, as a they all, andthis is a large organization,
they recently decided um andworked it out through various
feedback mechanisms andcommittees and voting processes
to go to a four-day work week.
And those are things that shethat are living her values for
(21:27):
her.
Um, and and those, so those area few examples.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Fantastic examples.
What I'm hearing is regardlessof age or where you are in your
career, women can exert orpractice leadership even without
the leadership role.
Because this is you're talkingabout honoring your values,
drawing a line in the set.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Absolutely.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
And even coming to understand what your values are,
or I mean, maybe it's just maybeit's just speaking up in one
little situation.
Um, it just um it doesn'talways, again, it doesn't always
have to be a dramatic quitexperience or but but it's and
it's like learning that who youwant to work with and how you
(22:16):
want to spend your time and andwhat projects, if you have any
choice at all over your workassignment, how you can choose
projects that are going to alignwith your values.
So it's some of that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
So this is to do with self-awareness and also
being willing to advocate or tospeak up for your values when it
counts.
What do you see as women'sunique strengths that they bring
as leaders?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
So I think the context awareness is one
important piece of this becausewomen, and especially in the in
the US, I'll say women of color,there's a lot of research on
this, you know, having to moveand operate in systems that they
usually did not create and werecreated, not necessarily with
them in mind.
(23:07):
And going into spaces, if you'rethe only woman on a, you know, a
board in a tech company, or ifyou're the only woman of color
as a faculty member in a in adepartment in a predominantly
white university, you are seeingthings from a little bit
different angle than a lot ofother people do.
Um, and you're also sometimeshaving to code switch with how
(23:30):
you speak and with differentgroups that you interact with.
I mean, another example I cangive is, and I've heard this
many times from women who becomemothers, all of a sudden their
workplace looks different.
Oh, so we don't have anywhere topump for nursing mothers.
Oh, so this is what our leavepolicies are like.
Oh, so this is the limits of ourhealth insurance.
Um, and so that contextawareness from being feeling
(23:55):
like outsiders in any way, thoseare challenging experiences that
can be scarring and can be awfuland can drive people out, but
they can also be the stuff ofwisdom and leadership skills.
And that's why there's a lot ofresearch showing so many people
like to work with women leaders.
They do a lot more.
There's research showing thatthey are women leaders are more
likely to do diversity, equity,inclusion work.
(24:17):
They're more likely to say theyvalue that and actually do it.
Um they're more likely than menleaders to help other workers
manage burnout, which is a hugeissue in the workplace.
And so some of those pro-socialvalues that women are often
socialized into, now, of course,that can be exploited.
You know, as I started talkingabout nonprofits, and I and how
(24:39):
it's always a challenging kindof needle to thread.
How do we both name and claimthe emotional superpowers that
women tend to have?
Not all women, don't get mewrong, but women tend to have,
but not exploit them.
And I would add to thatemotional agility, um, ability
to listen to lots of differentperspectives.
(25:00):
Again, we have research showingthat women leaders are more
likely to take into accountmultiple perspectives before
making a decision.
And those are all things in a inan environment, our our
workplace environments now thatare so full of rapid change.
Um we and relationship buildinglike that, and the ability to
manage conflict and beemotionally agile and pay
(25:20):
attention to different groupsand constituencies, those are
what's needed.
I mean, the research literaturecalls it transformational
leadership.
Um, and it and it's women dohave a slight edge with it.
Anyone can do that.
There are men leaders who dothis, non-binary leaders who do
this, people who do this, right?
But women do tend to have alittle edge on some of these
(25:41):
things.
So hopefully those are someexamples that make sense.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Those are very helpful examples indeed.
What is one thing you want ourlisteners to take away from our
conversation today?
SPEAKER_00 (25:55):
Leadership is very expansive, and you're probably
already leading from whereveryou are.
So I would say learn to findyour strengths and get curious
about other ways to think aboutleadership skills, advocacy,
mentoring, team building, um,being the architects of
(26:17):
compassionate and innovativecultures in the workplace.
These are leadership skills thatyou can do as an introvert, that
you can do through buildingrelationships and through
building self-awareness.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
That's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (26:34):
So instead of just focusing on leadership as in a
role that I have or a title thatI have, I'm looking at
leadership from a place that Ialready occupy.
How can I do this better?
How can I foster those deepconnections with people?
How can I bring my uniquestrengths, staying in my own
lane, but at the same time alsoknowing what I care about, why I
(26:57):
care about those things, andspeaking up, communicating, I
think, much more.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
I think that is an aspect of leadership.
Absolutely.
And and that communication, um,you know, with the like you
mentioned with a lot ofintroverts, there's a
thoughtfulness to thatcommunication.
That is that is anothersuperpower.
And another woman I interviewed,yeah, I think something you said
made me think of it.
She said um that as a youngnurse, you know, she ended her
(27:24):
career as a VP in the HR realm,but you know, she had her
background was nursing.
Um, and she said, as a youngnurse, I started to realize, oh,
people are giving me moreresponsibility.
And you know, it was just thatself-awareness in and of itself
was good.
And then she said to herself,how can I do this authentically?
And I and I thought that wasjust such an important question
(27:45):
to notice, oh, moreresponsibility is coming my way.
How can I do it authentically?
Not just how can I please peopleand make sure that they are glad
they asked me to do it, but howcan I do it authentically?
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
That is next level thinking.
That goes beyond.
That's why I interviewed theseamazing women.
Yes, yes.
Wow.
Yeah, I want that for youngpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
I want I want young people to be able to, you know,
I think that's part of what Ihope this book will do is um
allow help foster some of thosethought patterns.
And oh, I could think about itthis way, even when you're
younger.
And that's part of the the joyof tapping into the wisdom of
(28:35):
some of my older interviewees.
Um, and I do hope the book alsofosters some intergenerational
conversations, because I feellike we're in a moment where
there's a lot of kind ofcultural memes about get out of
the way boomers, and Gen Z isout to lunch and whatever, you
know, just these kind of umideas that the generations don't
(28:57):
have anything to offer oneanother.
And as a historian, I'm I justcan't, I can't abide that.
Of course we do.
Of course we have a lot to offerone another.
But we need to understand thatwe do have some different
contexts generationally.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
I think that context awareness that you mentioned at
the start of this conversation,it feels like a theme that keeps
popping up in a very importantway.
Because when we understand thecontext that somebody has come
out of, you know, whatevergeneration they belong to, we
understand the bigger picture,we understand the history, what
what else was happening in theworld at that time that has
(29:32):
influenced their generation?
And then you look at it at a asa cross-generation, as a
historian, I'm sure, from a bigpicture point of view, these are
all the things that have beenhappening through the ages, or
what patterns am I noticing?
How are these patternsintersecting?
What can I do to help?
How can all of us uh understandeach other better?
How can we look beyond our ownimmediate environment and
(29:56):
constraints and problems?
And you know, this is the stuffthat I'm going through in my
daily life, but what is thisperson and that person and that
other person also going throughbecause of what has happened
before that I'm not aware of?
That's outside my time, uh mytime frame.
And I think when you when youstart looking at it that way,
that what what you've just saidabout how the generations need
(30:18):
to work together is inspiring meto think in a new direction with
that as well.
So that is that is very, veryhelpful, very um actually it's
quite exciting when you thinkabout you know what you said
about tapping into thecollective wisdom.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Hmm, I'm excited about it.
Yeah.
Yeah, like I said, I hopethere's some some more
intergenerational conversations,you know.
Um I I just and I do spend a lotof time kind of laying out the
context for the young peoplebecause I think it it's it's
also too easy for older peopleto say, well, I did it, that I
did it, I got through it, I gotthrough that hard time in my
life.
But some of the realities abouteconomic inequality and the
(30:57):
mental health challenges ofyounger people and the social
media piece and you know, thingslike that, so that it helps to
understand one another, but italso helps to understand that
older people, you know, couldhave been legally fired for
being gay in the United Statesor may have even come of age
when, you know, before thePregnancy Discrimination Act of
(31:18):
1978, they could be fired forbeing pregnant.
Um, so much racism was umallowed and you know not dealt
with.
Um, I'm not saying that that'snot still happening today too
much, but there we do have lawsand coalitions and more people
with with you know raising theirvoices on those issues.
And so the environment hasshifted in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
And where can we get a copy of your book?
SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
So uh it's distributed through Ingram Spark
and on bookshop.org to supportlocal bookstores and also at a
large retailer whose nameeveryone knows, and there's no
problem reason, probable reasonfor me to repeat it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
Excellent.
So we'll make sure to includeall the useful links for our
listeners.
And I just want to end bythanking you, Dr.
Jodi, for a very illuminatingconversation today from the
historical perspective, but alsomaking us aware of the
importance of context when we'retalking to people and about how
uh it's important to foster deepconnection with people wherever
(32:23):
we work, and about the strengthsof women in leadership.
And regardless of where we arein our career and what uh title
we have or where we are in theorganizational hierarchy, we can
still practice leadership,right?
Because first and foremost, weare leaders of ourselves.
And then when when we speak upabout our values and honor those
values, then we are also leadingothers and showing others and
(32:47):
empowering others to be leadersin their own circles too.
So I really appreciate this veryintellectual conversation with
you today.
I've learned a lot and I'm sureour listeners will as well.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Oh, thank you.
It's been such a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (33:02):
If you've enjoyed this episode of the Quiet
Warrior Podcast, be sure toleave a five-star rating and
review to help us reach moreintroverts and quiet achievers
around the world.
And for resources on how tothrive as an introvert, make
sure to join the visibleintrovert community at
serenalo.com.au.
See you on the next episode.
(33:23):
I'm so grateful that you're heretoday.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serenaloo,Quiet Warrior Coach.
(33:43):
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
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