October 6, 2024 • 37 mins
Episode Summary:
I sat down with Ben Lai, founder of Sales Ethos, to explore the subject of sales and introversion. Ben shares his journey from nursing to becoming a sales expert, driven by his goal of professional speaking and his desire to care for people. He discusses the misconceptions people, especially introverts, have about sales, and how ethical selling aligned with personal values can lead to long-term success. Ben and I dive deep into how introverts can find their voice in the sales world, balance assertiveness with humility, and remain true to their values while thriving in business.
Key Topics:
- Ben’s background: from nursing to sales
- The meaning behind the term "Sales Ethos" and why values matter in business
- Why introverts struggle with sales and how to overcome it
- How to sell ethically without feeling "pushy"
- The importance of detaching from the sales outcome
- Building confidence by reflecting on past successes
- Balancing assertiveness with humility in sales
- Sales techniques rooted in psychology
- The role of mindset in becoming an effective salesperson
Memorable Quotes:
- “Sales is service; it’s not about manipulation.”
- “Ethical sales are the key to long-term success.”
- “Believe in yourself, and if you can’t yet, borrow someone else’s belief in you.”
- “Our prospective clients will believe in us to the degree that we believe in ourselves.”
Guest Bio:
Ben Lai is the founder of Sales Ethos, a business dedicated to teaching ethical sales techniques grounded in personal values. With a background in nursing, Ben combines his passion for helping others with his sales expertise to help introverts and entrepreneurs excel in sales without compromising their integrity.
Connect with Ben Lai:
- Website: Sales Ethos
- LinkedIn: Ben Lai on LinkedIn
Call to Action:
If you enjoyed this episode, take 5 seconds to rate and review it, and share it with someone who might benefit from Ben Lai’s insights.
This episode was edited by Aura House Productions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome, welcome to anotherepisode of the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
Today we want to talk about asubject that brings a little
(00:44):
fear and trembling into maybenot just introverts, but
everyone in general, and that isthe subject of sales.
How do we get good at sales?
What is sales actually?
Why do we get so nervous whenwe hear the word sales and that
we have to do some selling?
What are some of these typicalassumptions we make about people
(01:05):
who are in sales, and how doesthat affect the way we run our
businesses and how we projectourselves professionally?
So to help us today I haveBenjamin Lai from Sales Ethos.
Ben welcome to the QuietWarrior podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thank you for having me, Serena.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Ben, I'm really curious have you always been in
sales?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Goodness?
No, absolutely not.
Yeah, my career started innursing and my main motivation
for going into that professionwas just I liked the idea of
caring for people for a livingidea of caring for people for a
(01:48):
living.
So that's kind of mypersonality.
The reason that I went intosales was purely out of
necessity, and what actuallyhappened was that my long-term
goal has always been to doprofessional speaking and
educating.
The idea is that I can use theplatform to impact as many
people as possible, and Irealized along the way that if I
wanted to go down that pathway,I would need to start my own
(02:11):
business.
And if I'm going to start myown business, one of the core
skills required is sales.
Now, at that time, I had zerosales skills.
In fact, I would probably havenegative sales skills, if that's
if there's such a thing,because I'm a natural introvert.
On top of that, I'm also apeople pleaser Like I.
(02:33):
To put into perspective, Iliterally cannot sleep at night
if I think I've upset someone.
That's the kind of person I am.
So I went into sales completelyout of necessity and struggled
my way through until I becamegood at it and started calming
that part of my brain down thatsaid, you don't have to make
everyone happy.
And then the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
That's brilliant.
And tell me why you picked theword ethos?
Because ethos to me usuallyrepresents something to do with
values or character or thetraits of a person.
So what does sales ethos meanto you?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, sure, the word ethos actually goes back to the
ancient Greek language and theoriginal meaning is the way that
we do things.
So it's about the culture, it'sabout your values.
But since then it's kind ofevolved and developed to also
mean that the way that we dothings is through ethical means.
(03:32):
So my commitment right from thebeginning, since I entered into
the sales profession, was thatI would never compromise on my
Christian values while trying tobe successful at the same time.
And I discovered something veryinteresting it is by holding
onto those values and holdingthat integrity that you unlock
(03:54):
the ability to have long-termsuccess.
People who try to shortcut theprocess, who try to rip people
off the lie, cheat and steal inorder to get the sale, will
falter in the long term.
They may get some quick wins ifthey're lucky, but it's
definitely not a long-termstrategy.
So that's where it came from.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
That's really interesting.
I love how you've infused yourpersonal values and beliefs into
the way you operate, the wayyou run your business, because
isn't the business an extensionof ourselves?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's how we can bring.
Each of us can bring our uniquevalue to the marketplace,
because there is only one,serena Lowe, there is only one,
ben Lai, and, yes, there mightbe other sales trainers out
there, but we bring somethingunique to the marketplace by
being ourselves.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I love that.
So you've mentioned helpingothers, taking care of others
and then transitioning intosales.
Tell me, how does that connect?
Still for you in your business,now that your focus is on
helping people to sell better,how is that also a way of caring
for others or taking care of?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
others.
Yeah, that's a really greatquestion.
The two concepts, selling andhelping, often don't go together
, which is unfortunate, becausethe actual original meaning of
the word sales is service, ifyou look at the entomology of
the word.
And so, from that perspective,what I teach my clients, what I
(05:30):
always embody myself, is to viewthe sales process as a way of
helping people, whether they buyor not.
So, in the same way, serena,I'm sure that when you're
consulting with a potentialclient, you ask them a whole
bunch of questions, right?
And what do you find Like whenyou're asking people questions
(05:51):
about their current situation?
How is it that they get valuefrom you as a result of the
sales process?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I think it's because I structure my questions in such
a way to help them, to make iteasy for them to filter
themselves in or out.
So I'm not attached to theoutcome of whether they say yes
or no.
I'm more interested in helpingyou find whether you are a right
fit for this thing.
So I'm not persuading you, youare persuading yourself and I'm
simply offering you thescenarios offering you the
(06:27):
scenarios.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's brilliant, and it's
exactly what I would teach myclients as well.
You've instinctively taken on alot of what I teach, so, yeah,
you're absolutely right.
Allowing people to persuadethemselves by asking them
targeted questions is a way toactually help them to gain
clarity on what it is that theyreally want, and I think that's
one of the ways that Iconstantly get feedback from my
(06:51):
prospects that just the salesprocess in itself was valuable
From that perspective.
We should always feel goodabout it.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yes, I think that already takes a lot of the
pressure off, because when youtalked about people pleasing and
that inability to sleep atnight because you feel that you
let someone down, I mean I canrelate to that as well and one
part of you know, in the earlydays of my business, this whole
thing to do with sales andmarketing bothered me so much
because I felt like I was beingforced to be some pushy kind of
(07:23):
person trying to railroad peopleto take a certain stance, and
that was against my nature,because I didn't want to have
people say yes at all costs andfor everyone to say yes, because
as time went by, I realized noteveryone is the right person to
work with or this may not bethe right time.
So, I think, like what you said,that aspect of feeling safe to,
(07:47):
to be able to say no, but andto also not people, please, you
know.
So actually, the it sounds tome like what you're focusing on
is actually the best interestsof your client.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Absolutely, absolutely, and I actually have
just made that into a policy,absolutely, and I actually have
just made that into a policywhich I run my business by.
It's called the best interestpolicy and essentially it's
looking at things from theperspective of it's either going
(08:21):
to be win-win or no deal.
Referring to Steve Covey'sseven habits, he talks about
always seeking win-win.
I think that's a really greatpolicy to have.
But the important thing is thisright, you mentioned that you
don't want to be too pushy.
So in your own self-assessment,how do you feel like you fit in
on the scale?
Because on the one hand, wehave being completely passive,
on the other side, we have beingaggressive.
(08:43):
On the other side, we havebeing aggressive and somewhere
in the middle is a sweet spot ofbeing assertive.
So where do you feel you sit onthat spectrum?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I think I started off as being completely passive
because I just gave up on theidea I can never do this.
I'm an introvert, I can't sell,I can't be the aggressive
person and I don't like how itmakes me feel when I'm on the
other end.
Therefore, let me be passive.
But then, of course, I realizedthat passive means no sales and
no sales aggressive person, andI don't like how it makes me
feel when I'm on the other end.
Therefore, let me be passive.
But then, of course, I realizedthat passive means no sales and
no sales means no business.
So then I had to go looking forthat sweet spot.
(09:13):
Where is this magical balancebetween being assertive and
being completely passive?
And while I've not completelyarrived, I think I'm a lot
closer to it these days, andsimply by focusing more on the
other person's point of view,where they are in their journey,
what exactly do they need now?
And just getting curious andasking all those questions
(09:35):
without getting attached to theoutcome.
Yeah, yeah and that really putsthem, that makes them feel so
safe that they feel that I cantrust you.
I can tell you things.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yes, yes, actually, funnily enough, just this week I
posted one of my videos aboutdetaching from the outcome Right
, and it's such an importantconcept because it lowers your
own desperation and gets rid ofthis thing that we call
commission breath when you'retalking to your clients, rid of
this thing that we callcommission breath when you're
(10:05):
talking to your clients.
So the more desperate you are,the more you're going to repel
people, but the more detachedyou are with the exception of
really caring about the outcomefor the client then the more
trustworthy and the more aperson can feel like they can
open up to you.
So it sounds like you're veryclose, if not already there, in
(10:26):
striking that balance.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
But I'm curious to know from a sales trainer
perspective, Ben, how do youteach people to move towards
finding that sweet spot?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, that's a good question.
It all starts with mindset.
So, firstly, we have to dealwith three key areas.
One is our mindset around money, then secondly around business
and then thirdly around selling.
Each of us have a certainupbringing which will color our
(10:58):
perception about all three.
Now, what I usually find withmy clients is that the ones who
have wealthy parents oftentimesthey're entrepreneurial parents.
These people have no troublewith their money mindsets or
their business mindsets, butpeople who had parents who
really struggled, you know, theysay things like money doesn't
(11:21):
grow on trees and they're alwaysabout working harder in order
to earn money.
And then there's a lot of.
Even from a religiousperspective, some people falsely
believe that money is the rootof all evil.
Now, again, referring to theBible, the actual reference is
(11:44):
the love of money is a root ofall kinds of evil.
Big difference when you get soobsessed about money that you
start hurting other people toget it.
That's when it becomes reallyunhealthy.
But from that perspective, onceyou fix up these mindsets, then
it allows you, it unlocks yourability to sell more effectively
(12:06):
.
And then, just going on tosales, if you believe that sales
is something that you do forpeople, as a service to people,
then you're going to be muchmore comfortable being assertive
in the sales process.
From there it's mostly likeonce you have the intention in
place, the skills are very easyto implement, and then you can
(12:29):
strike that balance much easier.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
once you have that foundation in place, so we
talked about mindset and wetalked about skills.
And you're saying skills is theeasy part, because that's
something we can pick up and wecan get better at, just like
learning anything new.
So why is it that, particularlywith introverts, they feel such
an aversion to the idea ofputting themselves out there,
(12:55):
letting people know what they'redoing and inviting people to
work with them?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, I believe that the root of that comes from our
self-perception, andparticularly around our idea of
what humility is right.
So humility is often thought ofas not being able to boast
about yourself.
(13:21):
It's about deflectingcompliments.
You know, when someone says, oh, good job, serena, then you say
, oh no, it was nothing, itwasn't.
You know, it was luck or it wassomething else.
You don't take ownership of thevalue that you have brought in
that situation.
But true humility, if you thinkabout it, is having an accurate
(13:41):
self-assessment.
So here's the funny thing.
A funny quirk about people isthat we are very, very bad at
estimating our actual level ofcompetence.
In psychology it's called theDunning-Kruger effect.
So what it means is that forpeople who are actually quite
intelligent, they are constantlylooking at people who are
(14:04):
better than themselves and sothey feel inadequate.
And then on the other end of thespectrum, you've got people who
are genuinely incompetent andthey think that they're very
competent.
So most of the people that Italk to, they fit on onto that
higher end, and so that's thereason that we tend to downplay
our significance or the impactthat we can have on clients, and
(14:27):
this can be naturally remediedthroughout time as you serve
more and more clients and toincrease that self-perception
and that confidence.
But it takes a lot ofintrospection, as well as
self-reflection, in order toproperly put that foundation in
(14:49):
place.
Let me put it this way, serena,when thinking about the client
that you have impacted the mostwhat was their situation like
before they worked with you?
What was their situation likebefore they worked with you and
what was their situation likeafter they worked with you?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So when they first came to me, typically they would
be quite lacking inself-confidence, full of doubt,
constantly overthinking it andquestioning their worth, their
abilities.
And after they work with methey usually realize hang on,
actually I've got a lot ofstrengths.
It's just that they are thequieter kind of strengths that
(15:26):
you know.
Because we are in an extrovertbias culture, they might be
overlooked.
Those strengths are not valuedas much.
But once they learn how to tapinto those strengths, start
showcasing, using them much moreand taking ownership, like you
say, embracing those strengthsand being proud that you know,
hey, I'm actually pretty cool,you know, because I'm a good
(15:47):
listener, I'm a goodcommunicator, I really pay
attention to details, I'm verycareful with my work.
And then they discover they'vegot actually a pretty long list
of things that they cangenuinely be proud of, without
feeling like, oh, I've got tocringe or apologize or get
defensive or anything the minutesomebody compliments me.
So it's a very different energyonce they realize that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Fantastic.
And then how did that clientthen benefit from finding that
extra confidence, like whattangibly was the difference in
their workplace?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
For them in their workplace.
It meant being able to speak up, being able to actually
articulate their views and saythis is how I feel, or let me
come back to you because I needto think about this, and then
I'll come back to you with asolution.
So it's coming up with moreself-empowering ways to respond
to people instead of their usualinstinctive response.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Fantastic.
So when reflecting about thatparticular client, how does it
feel, even just recounting thestory?
What are you feeling on theinside?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I'm feeling so proud of them.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Fantastic, fantastic.
Okay, now here's another thingwhen it comes to our level of
confidence as as introverts,there's another psychological
trick that's at work that'spreventing us from promoting
ourselves and to be as assertiveas we need to be.
And I'm not sure what, what thelabel for this is called, but
but we have a tendency as humanbeings to evaluate ourselves
(17:19):
based on only the last few weeksof performance.
So that means if you serve thatclient, say, two years ago,
your brain has already kind offorgotten the feeling that you
achieved that absolutelyfantastic result for them, them.
And let's just say, you had adown month in June, which myself
(17:42):
and some colleagues we weresaying amongst ourselves, with
economic times it's been a bittough.
So the problem with our brainis that it's going to look at
that month and then make us feelaccording to that month,
(18:04):
according to that month.
So the cure for that is toreflect and to look back and
revisit all of the great stuffthat we have accomplished, to
raise that level of confidenceand confidence back to where
it's supposed to be, and thenthat then allows us to be as
assertive as we need to be.
Now I just had another quickcomment, because you were
mentioning the extroverts andour extrovert culture, there's
another really importantprinciple for us, as introverts,
(18:24):
to remember, and that is thatour prospective clients will
believe in us to the degree thatwe believe in ourselves.
Right?
What that means is there are alot of genuinely incompetent
people out in the marketplace,right?
So we mentioned the two ends ofthe spectrum, but for some
(18:47):
reason, these guys are reallygood at communicating.
They have a crappy product or acrappy service, but they're
really good at marketing andthey're really good at selling.
Because they're really good atselling, because they convey
themselves with confidence andpeople buy into that confidence.
So, then, for us as introvertswho are genuinely good at what
(19:08):
we do, we have a moralresponsibility to properly
represent ourselves and preventthem from making the mistake of
working with these charlatans,these unethical providers who
promise the world and thendeliver very little.
So we have a responsibility toreally promote ourselves if we
(19:31):
genuinely believe in what we do.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You've said a lot of different things in there and
suddenly I had a picture ofAvengers or superheroes of some
kind you know us quiet onesflying in to save the day.
The thing is, why is it thatpeople are so easily entranced
by those with the bigpersonalities, the big voices,
the ones who are really charmingand charismatic?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think that goes back to biology and neurology.
It is what it is.
We have these tendencies.
All we can do is observe howthe human brain and how human
psychology works.
We know that from observationthat people tend to buy in with
(20:18):
people who are charismatic,right and who have extroverted
personalities.
And, mind you, there are somany different factors that
influence a person's trust inanother.
Even things like the way thatwe dress has a very big impact
on our perception of a personand how much we trust them.
(20:39):
Another one is called beautybias.
The more beautiful you are orthe more handsome you are, the
more people are going to trustwhat you say.
Now, if you think about it,there's absolutely no connection
whatsoever between how we lookand the results that we can
provide, but nevertheless we areaware of these things and
(21:00):
therefore we take care of ourappearance so that that is not a
stumbling block for peopledoing business with us.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
You've reminded me of a book.
The author's name escapes me atthe moment, but I remember the
title very clearly it's calledPredictably Irrational.
He was talking about humannature and how, just like you
described, we fall for thosethings that the logical mind
would not fall for, but somehowthere is something in us that
instinctively just goes forcertain things.
(21:30):
So, even though there would bered flags and in our calmer
state we might not be so quickto say yes to those kinds of
people, but somehow in themoment they just seem really
persuasive and they somehowconvince us that they are the
right solution, they have theright answer, that product is
perfect for us and there willnever be a better time.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That's right, and the marketers and the salespeople
out there are fully aware of allof these factors and they will
exploit them as much as they can.
So increasing our awareness ofthose factors not only protects
ourselves from being duped, butit also allows us to be a little
bit more strategic with the waythat we promote ourselves,
(22:15):
which is where we actually getinto a very gray area when it
comes to ethical persuasionversus manipulation.
Right and just as a quickdefinition, if you want to avoid
manipulation, you must startwith number one the intent, your
intent for using any of thesepsychological strategies is to
(22:38):
benefit the other person and notfor only selfish gain.
So, going back to the win-winas long as there is a win-win,
it is okay to use thesetechniques.
Now there is one more criteria.
The other criteria is that itmust not in any way interfere
with the other person's autonomy, their ability to choose.
So you still have to allow theperson enough psychological
(23:02):
space to make an informeddecision, and that means not
using high pressure tactics, andit also means not using fear
tactics in order to get a personto buy from you.
So it is unfortunately a bit ofa gray area, but at the very
minimum, we should be aware ofthese things so that we're not
(23:23):
preventing people from doingbusiness with us.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I like how you emphasize that we are being
aware, so that we can removethese stumbling blocks that are
in the way of us working withcertain people, with certain
people, and the idea of alsobeing ethical, as opposed to the
not manipulating people, butbeing ethical because we want
the best for them and we arehelping them.
(23:47):
So we are actually.
Actually, we do need to bemasters of sales psychology,
then.
So what is sales psychology toyou as a sales trainer?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah, look, I think it's predominantly being aware
of how people think and howpeople make decisions.
Coming from a medical sciencebackground, we learn about all
of these persuasion tactics andpsychology and all the clinical
studies that prove them.
We then have an ethicalresponsibility to make sure that
(24:21):
we don't abuse these techniques.
But as long as you abide bythose two initial guidelines,
you should be in the safe zone,and I think for most of us, our
intention right from thebeginning is to help people
anyway.
So I would probably suggestthat we can be a little bit more
(24:46):
brave to use thesepsychological techniques,
because we know that we arestill looking out for people's
benefits at the end of the day.
I might just add one more thingon top of that, serena.
So you mentioned before thatbefore you engage with a client,
you're asking a lot ofquestions, right?
This is what I call the duediligence phase.
So when a person is decidingwhether to work with you,
they're going to check you out.
They're going to look at yourLinkedIn profile, your website,
(25:07):
to see how credible you are.
They're doing their duediligence, but you, as a service
provider, also have aresponsibility to do your due
diligence on the person thatyou're speaking to.
So if it so happens that theperson is not a good fit and you
cannot foreseeably give themthe outcome that they're looking
for, then you have theresponsibility to say to the
(25:30):
person I don't think we shouldwork together.
So don't forget all thepsychological persuasion
techniques.
You tell them I don't think weshould work together.
And having the guts to do thatis hard.
If you're coming from ascarcity mindset, if you're just
starting out your business forthe first time, you've got very
little money in the bank, you'vegot no income.
(25:52):
It's very, very hard to do.
I'll have to confess it washard for me as well.
But the more you commit to that, the more credibility you're
going to build with others andthe more trustworthy you're
going to be perceived as.
So that's how I would suggestyou go about in the sales
process.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I like that concept.
We're auditioning each other,so it's also about
self-responsibility.
Just as a client has theresponsibility to find the best
solution or service providerthat they can, based on their
circumstances, we too arefinding the best client that we
can get the outcomes for andthat it would also be a pleasure
(26:32):
to work with for the long termthat's right.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It has to be win-win or no deal yes, I think that's a
good one.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Now, how do you apply your sales framework in the
workplace to help people whohave trouble putting themselves
out there, speaking upappropriately, who feel that
they're constantly beingovershadowed or talked over?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, that's a great question, and the interesting
thing about sales training andsales skills is that they so
easily transfer to any othersituation.
And what I'm trying to say topeople more nowadays is that if
you want to be a high performingsalesperson and if you want to
(27:18):
be a quality salesperson, youneed to be a quality human being
, you need to be a good person,you need to be able to genuinely
care about other people and toconvey that sense of empathy and
compassion for others.
Otherwise, imagine this if youmeet someone they're using all
(27:38):
the sales techniques in the book, all the psychological
techniques in the book, but youget a little bit of a niggling
feeling that this person is onlyself-interested.
They're just trying to gettheir commission.
At the end of the day, all ofthese sales techniques will come
across as manipulative andunethical, which brings me back
to that point about the intentbeing the most important thing,
(28:03):
that point about the intentbeing the most important thing.
So, for the people in theworkplace, learning sales skills
will help you to listen better.
Introverts are generally prettygood at listening right, so we
usually don't have a problemwith that.
Asking better questions, beingable to present yourself and
your ideas better, being able tohold yourself in a certain way.
(28:23):
Self-image psychology is areally important part of
salesmanship, so this is one ofthe areas that I'm trying to
help my clients with right nowto help them to increase how
they see themselves, because howyou see yourself is how you
portray yourself to others, andhow you portray yourself to
(28:43):
others affects how much theybelieve in you.
So, learning the skills but,most importantly, changing the
way that you see yourself If youlearn salesmanship, you will
improve not only in theself-perception, but you'll also
improve in the actual, tangibleskills as well.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So that's back to awareness, and that's again
mindset, and then the element ofskills and practice and
building up that confidence on agradual level, because the more
you try, the more you attempt,the more you push, the more
practice you get under your belt, and so you refine the way you
present yourself to the world.
So who are the people that youlove working with?
(29:31):
Are they more like companies,organizations, or are they more
individual persons?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, ultimately, when I work with teams, it is
still technically working withindividuals, and that's the way
that I see every client thatwhile they might be part of a
group, every person needs theirindividual help to improve their
sales skills.
My favorite demographic to workwith are the entrepreneurs,
(30:02):
especially the solopreneurs.
They're out there, puttingthemselves out there.
Oftentimes they lack theself-confidence.
Now here's a funny story.
There was a time when I firstwent out that I was selling
sales training and but the ironywas my sales approach was
(30:28):
horrible.
It was absolutely cringeworthy.
I would go into these salesmeetings and be an absolute
nervous wreck saying that I canhelp you to increase your sales,
but my sales process washorrible.
Now the question is, why?
Why was it horrible?
It was horrible because I wasselling myself as the product.
Previously I was selling thecompany's products right and I
(30:49):
could present that really well.
But once it becomes about youand the value that you can bring
others, then that's where theself-sabotage comes in.
So one of the common thingsthat I do with the entrepreneur
space is not only helping themwith their sales skills, but
also to find the confidence topresent themselves and to, more
importantly, to charge whatthey're worth.
(31:13):
One of the things thatsolopreneurs constantly do is
that they charge way too littlefor what they are providing.
They provide all this value,but then they charge this much
for it, right?
So helping those, theentrepreneurs, to significantly
increase their prices Most ofthem, I help them to double
(31:33):
their prices, sometimes eventriple their prices up to market
rates.
I'm not a fan of overcharging,okay, so just as a disclaimer
yeah, the entrepreneurs Iabsolutely love working with
them to help them to increasetheir revenue, and for the
individual, it's a massiveimpact.
Like imagine Serena, like, ifwe doubled your revenue in the
(31:56):
next 12 months, what would thatmean for you and your family?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It would definitely mean more, you and your family.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It would definitely mean more holidays, more eating
out, all the fun things.
Yeah, it opens a lot moreoptions and you don't have to be
so strict about I'll say, oh,we can't because of these
restrictions.
Yeah, it's very liberating tohave some money left over.
But here's another quick,important point With all of that
extra funds, what charitablecauses would you support, Serena
(32:30):
?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I've got a list and it's very hard to pick one, but
I would think something likeDoctors Without Borders.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Ah, ah.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, helping people in remote regions?
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
So here's a really greatphilosophy that I've learned
from one of my heroes, Jim Rohn.
Jim Rohn said earn more thanyou need so you can help others
in need.
I think it's such a beautifulphrase earn more than you need
(33:08):
so you can help others in need.
If we have all of this excessmoney, very few of us want to
buy that house in Turek or thatLamborghini or that luxury yacht
.
If you really wanted to buythose things, that would be
perfectly okay, but most of usdon't want those things.
That would be perfectly okay,but most of us don't want those
things.
Most of us, we have causes thatwe care about, and to earn more
(33:29):
so that we can contribute tothose things, I think is a noble
ambition to have.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That's a really good quote.
So for any entrepreneurs outthere who are listening,
especially if you're anintrovert as well do remember to
reach out to Ben Lai on hiswebsite and his LinkedIn profile
, all of which we are going tobe attaching to the show notes.
Now, ben, do you have any lastwords, any one thing that you
want the introverts who arelistening to take away from
(33:56):
today's chat about sales?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
One takeaway I would say believe in yourself, believe
in yourself.
Two years ago I rocked up tothis business coach and he was
asking me about my goals, and atthat time I was only making a
very mediocre income from thisbusiness.
And he asked me what is yourgoal?
(34:21):
And I told him that my goal isto increase my revenue by X
amount.
It was a very small, modestamount.
And then he said you can do waybetter than that.
I thought what do you mean?
How much better?
He said you can double yourbusiness.
And I thought really, double?
He said yeah, absolutely, workwith me and I'll mentor you to
(34:47):
help you to double your business.
And so I said okay, if you sayso.
I worked with him for 12 monthsand, sure enough, through that
accountability and that beliefthat he had in me, I doubled my
business in 12 months.
But here's the funny thing thefollowing 12 months, without his
help, that self-belief stayedwith me and I doubled the
(35:10):
business yet again.
Now here's the funny part,serena, here's the irony.
When I had that conversationwith that mentor, at that time I
had already helped other peopleincrease their businesses by
double.
I'd done it for other people.
There was no reason I couldn'tdo it for myself.
All I needed was someone elseto help me to believe that it
(35:31):
was possible.
And so, as a takeaway messagewhatever your mind can believe
and conceive it can achieve, sobelieve in yourself.
Aim for that double revenue andwork towards it.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Fantastic.
I love that.
And I also love that youacknowledged that sometimes,
because I can imagine theintrovert's first objection to
what you said about believing inyourself is but what if I don't
believe in myself?
What if I haven't got that muchself-belief?
What if I'm full of doubts andoverthinking and so on?
And you answered that questiontoo, because you said sometimes
(36:07):
you need to borrow someoneelse's belief in you until you
can sustain your own self-belief.
And that's the power ofmentoring and coaching and
having another person comealongside who actually genuinely
believes in what you are doingand is there to walk alongside
you and encourage you and giveyou that accountability and that
support.
And it's wonderful that that'swhat you are now doing for your
(36:28):
clients, and so you know anyonewho needs that assistance to
gain your self-belief that youcan sell.
You can sell ethically, you cansell with integrity, you can
sell in a way that lets yousleep at night, because you know
that you are helping so manyother people from a genuine
place.
And make sure you reach out toBen at his links below.
(36:50):
So, ben, thank you so much forcoming on the Quiet Warrior
podcast today and sharing withus your sales ethos.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
It was an absolute pleasure, Serena.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
And that was another episode of the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
If you've enjoyed this episodewith Ben Lai, do remember to
rate and review this episode,and also to share it with a
friend.
See you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
(37:21):
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serena LoQuiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome, welcome to anotherepisode of the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
Today we want to talk about asubject that brings a little
(00:44):
fear and trembling into maybenot just introverts, but
everyone in general, and that isthe subject of sales.
How do we get good at sales?
What is sales actually?
Why do we get so nervous whenwe hear the word sales and that
we have to do some selling?
What are some of these typicalassumptions we make about people
(01:05):
who are in sales, and how doesthat affect the way we run our
businesses and how we projectourselves professionally?
So to help us today I haveBenjamin Lai from Sales Ethos.
Ben welcome to the QuietWarrior podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thank you for having me, Serena.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Ben, I'm really curious have you always been in
sales?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Goodness?
No, absolutely not.
Yeah, my career started innursing and my main motivation
for going into that professionwas just I liked the idea of
caring for people for a livingidea of caring for people for a
(01:48):
living.
So that's kind of mypersonality.
The reason that I went intosales was purely out of
necessity, and what actuallyhappened was that my long-term
goal has always been to doprofessional speaking and
educating.
The idea is that I can use theplatform to impact as many
people as possible, and Irealized along the way that if I
wanted to go down that pathway,I would need to start my own
(02:11):
business.
And if I'm going to start myown business, one of the core
skills required is sales.
Now, at that time, I had zerosales skills.
In fact, I would probably havenegative sales skills, if that's
if there's such a thing,because I'm a natural introvert.
On top of that, I'm also apeople pleaser Like I.
(02:33):
To put into perspective, Iliterally cannot sleep at night
if I think I've upset someone.
That's the kind of person I am.
So I went into sales completelyout of necessity and struggled
my way through until I becamegood at it and started calming
that part of my brain down thatsaid, you don't have to make
everyone happy.
And then the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
That's brilliant.
And tell me why you picked theword ethos?
Because ethos to me usuallyrepresents something to do with
values or character or thetraits of a person.
So what does sales ethos meanto you?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, sure, the word ethos actually goes back to the
ancient Greek language and theoriginal meaning is the way that
we do things.
So it's about the culture, it'sabout your values.
But since then it's kind ofevolved and developed to also
mean that the way that we dothings is through ethical means.
(03:32):
So my commitment right from thebeginning, since I entered into
the sales profession, was thatI would never compromise on my
Christian values while trying tobe successful at the same time.
And I discovered something veryinteresting it is by holding
onto those values and holdingthat integrity that you unlock
(03:54):
the ability to have long-termsuccess.
People who try to shortcut theprocess, who try to rip people
off the lie, cheat and steal inorder to get the sale, will
falter in the long term.
They may get some quick wins ifthey're lucky, but it's
definitely not a long-termstrategy.
So that's where it came from.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
That's really interesting.
I love how you've infused yourpersonal values and beliefs into
the way you operate, the wayyou run your business, because
isn't the business an extensionof ourselves?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's how we can bring.
Each of us can bring our uniquevalue to the marketplace,
because there is only one,serena Lowe, there is only one,
ben Lai, and, yes, there mightbe other sales trainers out
there, but we bring somethingunique to the marketplace by
being ourselves.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I love that.
So you've mentioned helpingothers, taking care of others
and then transitioning intosales.
Tell me, how does that connect?
Still for you in your business,now that your focus is on
helping people to sell better,how is that also a way of caring
for others or taking care of?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
others.
Yeah, that's a really greatquestion.
The two concepts, selling andhelping, often don't go together
, which is unfortunate, becausethe actual original meaning of
the word sales is service, ifyou look at the entomology of
the word.
And so, from that perspective,what I teach my clients, what I
(05:30):
always embody myself, is to viewthe sales process as a way of
helping people, whether they buyor not.
So, in the same way, serena,I'm sure that when you're
consulting with a potentialclient, you ask them a whole
bunch of questions, right?
And what do you find Like whenyou're asking people questions
(05:51):
about their current situation?
How is it that they get valuefrom you as a result of the
sales process?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I think it's because I structure my questions in such
a way to help them, to make iteasy for them to filter
themselves in or out.
So I'm not attached to theoutcome of whether they say yes
or no.
I'm more interested in helpingyou find whether you are a right
fit for this thing.
So I'm not persuading you, youare persuading yourself and I'm
simply offering you thescenarios offering you the
(06:27):
scenarios.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's brilliant, and it's
exactly what I would teach myclients as well.
You've instinctively taken on alot of what I teach, so, yeah,
you're absolutely right.
Allowing people to persuadethemselves by asking them
targeted questions is a way toactually help them to gain
clarity on what it is that theyreally want, and I think that's
one of the ways that Iconstantly get feedback from my
(06:51):
prospects that just the salesprocess in itself was valuable
From that perspective.
We should always feel goodabout it.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yes, I think that already takes a lot of the
pressure off, because when youtalked about people pleasing and
that inability to sleep atnight because you feel that you
let someone down, I mean I canrelate to that as well and one
part of you know, in the earlydays of my business, this whole
thing to do with sales andmarketing bothered me so much
because I felt like I was beingforced to be some pushy kind of
(07:23):
person trying to railroad peopleto take a certain stance, and
that was against my nature,because I didn't want to have
people say yes at all costs andfor everyone to say yes, because
as time went by, I realized noteveryone is the right person to
work with or this may not bethe right time.
So, I think, like what you said,that aspect of feeling safe to,
(07:47):
to be able to say no, but andto also not people, please, you
know.
So actually, the it sounds tome like what you're focusing on
is actually the best interestsof your client.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Absolutely, absolutely, and I actually have
just made that into a policy,absolutely, and I actually have
just made that into a policywhich I run my business by.
It's called the best interestpolicy and essentially it's
looking at things from theperspective of it's either going
(08:21):
to be win-win or no deal.
Referring to Steve Covey'sseven habits, he talks about
always seeking win-win.
I think that's a really greatpolicy to have.
But the important thing is thisright, you mentioned that you
don't want to be too pushy.
So in your own self-assessment,how do you feel like you fit in
on the scale?
Because on the one hand, wehave being completely passive,
on the other side, we have beingaggressive.
(08:43):
On the other side, we havebeing aggressive and somewhere
in the middle is a sweet spot ofbeing assertive.
So where do you feel you sit onthat spectrum?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I think I started off as being completely passive
because I just gave up on theidea I can never do this.
I'm an introvert, I can't sell,I can't be the aggressive
person and I don't like how itmakes me feel when I'm on the
other end.
Therefore, let me be passive.
But then, of course, I realizedthat passive means no sales and
no sales aggressive person, andI don't like how it makes me
feel when I'm on the other end.
Therefore, let me be passive.
But then, of course, I realizedthat passive means no sales and
no sales means no business.
So then I had to go looking forthat sweet spot.
(09:13):
Where is this magical balancebetween being assertive and
being completely passive?
And while I've not completelyarrived, I think I'm a lot
closer to it these days, andsimply by focusing more on the
other person's point of view,where they are in their journey,
what exactly do they need now?
And just getting curious andasking all those questions
(09:35):
without getting attached to theoutcome.
Yeah, yeah and that really putsthem, that makes them feel so
safe that they feel that I cantrust you.
I can tell you things.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yes, yes, actually, funnily enough, just this week I
posted one of my videos aboutdetaching from the outcome Right
, and it's such an importantconcept because it lowers your
own desperation and gets rid ofthis thing that we call
commission breath when you'retalking to your clients, rid of
this thing that we callcommission breath when you're
(10:05):
talking to your clients.
So the more desperate you are,the more you're going to repel
people, but the more detachedyou are with the exception of
really caring about the outcomefor the client then the more
trustworthy and the more aperson can feel like they can
open up to you.
So it sounds like you're veryclose, if not already there, in
(10:26):
striking that balance.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
But I'm curious to know from a sales trainer
perspective, Ben, how do youteach people to move towards
finding that sweet spot?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, that's a good question.
It all starts with mindset.
So, firstly, we have to dealwith three key areas.
One is our mindset around money, then secondly around business
and then thirdly around selling.
Each of us have a certainupbringing which will color our
(10:58):
perception about all three.
Now, what I usually find withmy clients is that the ones who
have wealthy parents oftentimesthey're entrepreneurial parents.
These people have no troublewith their money mindsets or
their business mindsets, butpeople who had parents who
really struggled, you know, theysay things like money doesn't
(11:21):
grow on trees and they're alwaysabout working harder in order
to earn money.
And then there's a lot of.
Even from a religiousperspective, some people falsely
believe that money is the rootof all evil.
Now, again, referring to theBible, the actual reference is
(11:44):
the love of money is a root ofall kinds of evil.
Big difference when you get soobsessed about money that you
start hurting other people toget it.
That's when it becomes reallyunhealthy.
But from that perspective, onceyou fix up these mindsets, then
it allows you, it unlocks yourability to sell more effectively
(12:06):
.
And then, just going on tosales, if you believe that sales
is something that you do forpeople, as a service to people,
then you're going to be muchmore comfortable being assertive
in the sales process.
From there it's mostly likeonce you have the intention in
place, the skills are very easyto implement, and then you can
(12:29):
strike that balance much easier.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
once you have that foundation in place, so we
talked about mindset and wetalked about skills.
And you're saying skills is theeasy part, because that's
something we can pick up and wecan get better at, just like
learning anything new.
So why is it that, particularlywith introverts, they feel such
an aversion to the idea ofputting themselves out there,
(12:55):
letting people know what they'redoing and inviting people to
work with them?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, I believe that the root of that comes from our
self-perception, andparticularly around our idea of
what humility is right.
So humility is often thought ofas not being able to boast
about yourself.
(13:21):
It's about deflectingcompliments.
You know, when someone says, oh, good job, serena, then you say
, oh no, it was nothing, itwasn't.
You know, it was luck or it wassomething else.
You don't take ownership of thevalue that you have brought in
that situation.
But true humility, if you thinkabout it, is having an accurate
(13:41):
self-assessment.
So here's the funny thing.
A funny quirk about people isthat we are very, very bad at
estimating our actual level ofcompetence.
In psychology it's called theDunning-Kruger effect.
So what it means is that forpeople who are actually quite
intelligent, they are constantlylooking at people who are
(14:04):
better than themselves and sothey feel inadequate.
And then on the other end of thespectrum, you've got people who
are genuinely incompetent andthey think that they're very
competent.
So most of the people that Italk to, they fit on onto that
higher end, and so that's thereason that we tend to downplay
our significance or the impactthat we can have on clients, and
(14:27):
this can be naturally remediedthroughout time as you serve
more and more clients and toincrease that self-perception
and that confidence.
But it takes a lot ofintrospection, as well as
self-reflection, in order toproperly put that foundation in
(14:49):
place.
Let me put it this way, serena,when thinking about the client
that you have impacted the mostwhat was their situation like
before they worked with you?
What was their situation likebefore they worked with you and
what was their situation likeafter they worked with you?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So when they first came to me, typically they would
be quite lacking inself-confidence, full of doubt,
constantly overthinking it andquestioning their worth, their
abilities.
And after they work with methey usually realize hang on,
actually I've got a lot ofstrengths.
It's just that they are thequieter kind of strengths that
(15:26):
you know.
Because we are in an extrovertbias culture, they might be
overlooked.
Those strengths are not valuedas much.
But once they learn how to tapinto those strengths, start
showcasing, using them much moreand taking ownership, like you
say, embracing those strengthsand being proud that you know,
hey, I'm actually pretty cool,you know, because I'm a good
(15:47):
listener, I'm a goodcommunicator, I really pay
attention to details, I'm verycareful with my work.
And then they discover they'vegot actually a pretty long list
of things that they cangenuinely be proud of, without
feeling like, oh, I've got tocringe or apologize or get
defensive or anything the minutesomebody compliments me.
So it's a very different energyonce they realize that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Fantastic.
And then how did that clientthen benefit from finding that
extra confidence, like whattangibly was the difference in
their workplace?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
For them in their workplace.
It meant being able to speak up, being able to actually
articulate their views and saythis is how I feel, or let me
come back to you because I needto think about this, and then
I'll come back to you with asolution.
So it's coming up with moreself-empowering ways to respond
to people instead of their usualinstinctive response.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Fantastic.
So when reflecting about thatparticular client, how does it
feel, even just recounting thestory?
What are you feeling on theinside?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I'm feeling so proud of them.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Fantastic, fantastic.
Okay, now here's another thingwhen it comes to our level of
confidence as as introverts,there's another psychological
trick that's at work that'spreventing us from promoting
ourselves and to be as assertiveas we need to be.
And I'm not sure what, what thelabel for this is called, but
but we have a tendency as humanbeings to evaluate ourselves
(17:19):
based on only the last few weeksof performance.
So that means if you serve thatclient, say, two years ago,
your brain has already kind offorgotten the feeling that you
achieved that absolutelyfantastic result for them, them.
And let's just say, you had adown month in June, which myself
(17:42):
and some colleagues we weresaying amongst ourselves, with
economic times it's been a bittough.
So the problem with our brainis that it's going to look at
that month and then make us feelaccording to that month,
(18:04):
according to that month.
So the cure for that is toreflect and to look back and
revisit all of the great stuffthat we have accomplished, to
raise that level of confidenceand confidence back to where
it's supposed to be, and thenthat then allows us to be as
assertive as we need to be.
Now I just had another quickcomment, because you were
mentioning the extroverts andour extrovert culture, there's
another really importantprinciple for us, as introverts,
(18:24):
to remember, and that is thatour prospective clients will
believe in us to the degree thatwe believe in ourselves.
Right?
What that means is there are alot of genuinely incompetent
people out in the marketplace,right?
So we mentioned the two ends ofthe spectrum, but for some
(18:47):
reason, these guys are reallygood at communicating.
They have a crappy product or acrappy service, but they're
really good at marketing andthey're really good at selling.
Because they're really good atselling, because they convey
themselves with confidence andpeople buy into that confidence.
So, then, for us as introvertswho are genuinely good at what
(19:08):
we do, we have a moralresponsibility to properly
represent ourselves and preventthem from making the mistake of
working with these charlatans,these unethical providers who
promise the world and thendeliver very little.
So we have a responsibility toreally promote ourselves if we
(19:31):
genuinely believe in what we do.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You've said a lot of different things in there and
suddenly I had a picture ofAvengers or superheroes of some
kind you know us quiet onesflying in to save the day.
The thing is, why is it thatpeople are so easily entranced
by those with the bigpersonalities, the big voices,
the ones who are really charmingand charismatic?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think that goes back to biology and neurology.
It is what it is.
We have these tendencies.
All we can do is observe howthe human brain and how human
psychology works.
We know that from observationthat people tend to buy in with
(20:18):
people who are charismatic,right and who have extroverted
personalities.
And, mind you, there are somany different factors that
influence a person's trust inanother.
Even things like the way thatwe dress has a very big impact
on our perception of a personand how much we trust them.
(20:39):
Another one is called beautybias.
The more beautiful you are orthe more handsome you are, the
more people are going to trustwhat you say.
Now, if you think about it,there's absolutely no connection
whatsoever between how we lookand the results that we can
provide, but nevertheless we areaware of these things and
(21:00):
therefore we take care of ourappearance so that that is not a
stumbling block for peopledoing business with us.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
You've reminded me of a book.
The author's name escapes me atthe moment, but I remember the
title very clearly it's calledPredictably Irrational.
He was talking about humannature and how, just like you
described, we fall for thosethings that the logical mind
would not fall for, but somehowthere is something in us that
instinctively just goes forcertain things.
(21:30):
So, even though there would bered flags and in our calmer
state we might not be so quickto say yes to those kinds of
people, but somehow in themoment they just seem really
persuasive and they somehowconvince us that they are the
right solution, they have theright answer, that product is
perfect for us and there willnever be a better time.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That's right, and the marketers and the salespeople
out there are fully aware of allof these factors and they will
exploit them as much as they can.
So increasing our awareness ofthose factors not only protects
ourselves from being duped, butit also allows us to be a little
bit more strategic with the waythat we promote ourselves,
(22:15):
which is where we actually getinto a very gray area when it
comes to ethical persuasionversus manipulation.
Right and just as a quickdefinition, if you want to avoid
manipulation, you must startwith number one the intent, your
intent for using any of thesepsychological strategies is to
(22:38):
benefit the other person and notfor only selfish gain.
So, going back to the win-winas long as there is a win-win,
it is okay to use thesetechniques.
Now there is one more criteria.
The other criteria is that itmust not in any way interfere
with the other person's autonomy, their ability to choose.
So you still have to allow theperson enough psychological
(23:02):
space to make an informeddecision, and that means not
using high pressure tactics, andit also means not using fear
tactics in order to get a personto buy from you.
So it is unfortunately a bit ofa gray area, but at the very
minimum, we should be aware ofthese things so that we're not
(23:23):
preventing people from doingbusiness with us.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I like how you emphasize that we are being
aware, so that we can removethese stumbling blocks that are
in the way of us working withcertain people, with certain
people, and the idea of alsobeing ethical, as opposed to the
not manipulating people, butbeing ethical because we want
the best for them and we arehelping them.
(23:47):
So we are actually.
Actually, we do need to bemasters of sales psychology,
then.
So what is sales psychology toyou as a sales trainer?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah, look, I think it's predominantly being aware
of how people think and howpeople make decisions.
Coming from a medical sciencebackground, we learn about all
of these persuasion tactics andpsychology and all the clinical
studies that prove them.
We then have an ethicalresponsibility to make sure that
(24:21):
we don't abuse these techniques.
But as long as you abide bythose two initial guidelines,
you should be in the safe zone,and I think for most of us, our
intention right from thebeginning is to help people
anyway.
So I would probably suggestthat we can be a little bit more
(24:46):
brave to use thesepsychological techniques,
because we know that we arestill looking out for people's
benefits at the end of the day.
I might just add one more thingon top of that, serena.
So you mentioned before thatbefore you engage with a client,
you're asking a lot ofquestions, right?
This is what I call the duediligence phase.
So when a person is decidingwhether to work with you,
they're going to check you out.
They're going to look at yourLinkedIn profile, your website,
(25:07):
to see how credible you are.
They're doing their duediligence, but you, as a service
provider, also have aresponsibility to do your due
diligence on the person thatyou're speaking to.
So if it so happens that theperson is not a good fit and you
cannot foreseeably give themthe outcome that they're looking
for, then you have theresponsibility to say to the
(25:30):
person I don't think we shouldwork together.
So don't forget all thepsychological persuasion
techniques.
You tell them I don't think weshould work together.
And having the guts to do thatis hard.
If you're coming from ascarcity mindset, if you're just
starting out your business forthe first time, you've got very
little money in the bank, you'vegot no income.
(25:52):
It's very, very hard to do.
I'll have to confess it washard for me as well.
But the more you commit to that, the more credibility you're
going to build with others andthe more trustworthy you're
going to be perceived as.
So that's how I would suggestyou go about in the sales
process.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I like that concept.
We're auditioning each other,so it's also about
self-responsibility.
Just as a client has theresponsibility to find the best
solution or service providerthat they can, based on their
circumstances, we too arefinding the best client that we
can get the outcomes for andthat it would also be a pleasure
(26:32):
to work with for the long termthat's right.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It has to be win-win or no deal yes, I think that's a
good one.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Now, how do you apply your sales framework in the
workplace to help people whohave trouble putting themselves
out there, speaking upappropriately, who feel that
they're constantly beingovershadowed or talked over?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, that's a great question, and the interesting
thing about sales training andsales skills is that they so
easily transfer to any othersituation.
And what I'm trying to say topeople more nowadays is that if
you want to be a high performingsalesperson and if you want to
(27:18):
be a quality salesperson, youneed to be a quality human being
, you need to be a good person,you need to be able to genuinely
care about other people and toconvey that sense of empathy and
compassion for others.
Otherwise, imagine this if youmeet someone they're using all
(27:38):
the sales techniques in the book, all the psychological
techniques in the book, but youget a little bit of a niggling
feeling that this person is onlyself-interested.
They're just trying to gettheir commission.
At the end of the day, all ofthese sales techniques will come
across as manipulative andunethical, which brings me back
to that point about the intentbeing the most important thing,
(28:03):
that point about the intentbeing the most important thing.
So, for the people in theworkplace, learning sales skills
will help you to listen better.
Introverts are generally prettygood at listening right, so we
usually don't have a problemwith that.
Asking better questions, beingable to present yourself and
your ideas better, being able tohold yourself in a certain way.
(28:23):
Self-image psychology is areally important part of
salesmanship, so this is one ofthe areas that I'm trying to
help my clients with right nowto help them to increase how
they see themselves, because howyou see yourself is how you
portray yourself to others, andhow you portray yourself to
(28:43):
others affects how much theybelieve in you.
So, learning the skills but,most importantly, changing the
way that you see yourself If youlearn salesmanship, you will
improve not only in theself-perception, but you'll also
improve in the actual, tangibleskills as well.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So that's back to awareness, and that's again
mindset, and then the element ofskills and practice and
building up that confidence on agradual level, because the more
you try, the more you attempt,the more you push, the more
practice you get under your belt, and so you refine the way you
present yourself to the world.
So who are the people that youlove working with?
(29:31):
Are they more like companies,organizations, or are they more
individual persons?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, ultimately, when I work with teams, it is
still technically working withindividuals, and that's the way
that I see every client thatwhile they might be part of a
group, every person needs theirindividual help to improve their
sales skills.
My favorite demographic to workwith are the entrepreneurs,
(30:02):
especially the solopreneurs.
They're out there, puttingthemselves out there.
Oftentimes they lack theself-confidence.
Now here's a funny story.
There was a time when I firstwent out that I was selling
sales training and but the ironywas my sales approach was
(30:28):
horrible.
It was absolutely cringeworthy.
I would go into these salesmeetings and be an absolute
nervous wreck saying that I canhelp you to increase your sales,
but my sales process washorrible.
Now the question is, why?
Why was it horrible?
It was horrible because I wasselling myself as the product.
Previously I was selling thecompany's products right and I
(30:49):
could present that really well.
But once it becomes about youand the value that you can bring
others, then that's where theself-sabotage comes in.
So one of the common thingsthat I do with the entrepreneur
space is not only helping themwith their sales skills, but
also to find the confidence topresent themselves and to, more
importantly, to charge whatthey're worth.
(31:13):
One of the things thatsolopreneurs constantly do is
that they charge way too littlefor what they are providing.
They provide all this value,but then they charge this much
for it, right?
So helping those, theentrepreneurs, to significantly
increase their prices Most ofthem, I help them to double
(31:33):
their prices, sometimes eventriple their prices up to market
rates.
I'm not a fan of overcharging,okay, so just as a disclaimer
yeah, the entrepreneurs Iabsolutely love working with
them to help them to increasetheir revenue, and for the
individual, it's a massiveimpact.
Like imagine Serena, like, ifwe doubled your revenue in the
(31:56):
next 12 months, what would thatmean for you and your family?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It would definitely mean more, you and your family.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It would definitely mean more holidays, more eating
out, all the fun things.
Yeah, it opens a lot moreoptions and you don't have to be
so strict about I'll say, oh,we can't because of these
restrictions.
Yeah, it's very liberating tohave some money left over.
But here's another quick,important point With all of that
extra funds, what charitablecauses would you support, Serena
(32:30):
?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I've got a list and it's very hard to pick one, but
I would think something likeDoctors Without Borders.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Ah, ah.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, helping people in remote regions?
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
So here's a really greatphilosophy that I've learned
from one of my heroes, Jim Rohn.
Jim Rohn said earn more thanyou need so you can help others
in need.
I think it's such a beautifulphrase earn more than you need
(33:08):
so you can help others in need.
If we have all of this excessmoney, very few of us want to
buy that house in Turek or thatLamborghini or that luxury yacht
.
If you really wanted to buythose things, that would be
perfectly okay, but most of usdon't want those things.
That would be perfectly okay,but most of us don't want those
things.
Most of us, we have causes thatwe care about, and to earn more
(33:29):
so that we can contribute tothose things, I think is a noble
ambition to have.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That's a really good quote.
So for any entrepreneurs outthere who are listening,
especially if you're anintrovert as well do remember to
reach out to Ben Lai on hiswebsite and his LinkedIn profile
, all of which we are going tobe attaching to the show notes.
Now, ben, do you have any lastwords, any one thing that you
want the introverts who arelistening to take away from
(33:56):
today's chat about sales?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
One takeaway I would say believe in yourself, believe
in yourself.
Two years ago I rocked up tothis business coach and he was
asking me about my goals, and atthat time I was only making a
very mediocre income from thisbusiness.
And he asked me what is yourgoal?
(34:21):
And I told him that my goal isto increase my revenue by X
amount.
It was a very small, modestamount.
And then he said you can do waybetter than that.
I thought what do you mean?
How much better?
He said you can double yourbusiness.
And I thought really, double?
He said yeah, absolutely, workwith me and I'll mentor you to
(34:47):
help you to double your business.
And so I said okay, if you sayso.
I worked with him for 12 monthsand, sure enough, through that
accountability and that beliefthat he had in me, I doubled my
business in 12 months.
But here's the funny thing thefollowing 12 months, without his
help, that self-belief stayedwith me and I doubled the
(35:10):
business yet again.
Now here's the funny part,serena, here's the irony.
When I had that conversationwith that mentor, at that time I
had already helped other peopleincrease their businesses by
double.
I'd done it for other people.
There was no reason I couldn'tdo it for myself.
All I needed was someone elseto help me to believe that it
(35:31):
was possible.
And so, as a takeaway messagewhatever your mind can believe
and conceive it can achieve, sobelieve in yourself.
Aim for that double revenue andwork towards it.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Fantastic.
I love that.
And I also love that youacknowledged that sometimes,
because I can imagine theintrovert's first objection to
what you said about believing inyourself is but what if I don't
believe in myself?
What if I haven't got that muchself-belief?
What if I'm full of doubts andoverthinking and so on?
And you answered that questiontoo, because you said sometimes
(36:07):
you need to borrow someoneelse's belief in you until you
can sustain your own self-belief.
And that's the power ofmentoring and coaching and
having another person comealongside who actually genuinely
believes in what you are doingand is there to walk alongside
you and encourage you and giveyou that accountability and that
support.
And it's wonderful that that'swhat you are now doing for your
(36:28):
clients, and so you know anyonewho needs that assistance to
gain your self-belief that youcan sell.
You can sell ethically, you cansell with integrity, you can
sell in a way that lets yousleep at night, because you know
that you are helping so manyother people from a genuine
place.
And make sure you reach out toBen at his links below.
(36:50):
So, ben, thank you so much forcoming on the Quiet Warrior
podcast today and sharing withus your sales ethos.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
It was an absolute pleasure, Serena.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
And that was another episode of the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
If you've enjoyed this episodewith Ben Lai, do remember to
rate and review this episode,and also to share it with a
friend.
See you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
(37:21):
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serena LoQuiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
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