Do you freeze up at the thought of public speaking?
Feel like your quiet personality doesn’t “fit” on stage?
You’re not alone—and you don’t have to change who you are to be heard.
In this episode of The Quiet Warrior Podcast, I’m joined by speaker, comedian, and six-time author Mahlena-Rae Johnson, who calls herself the “Professor X for introverted CEOs with stage fright.”
With warmth, humor, and deep wisdom, Mahlena shares how introverts can embrace their own rhythm, speak with impact, and feel safe being seen—without performing or pretending.
We talk about:
– Why stage fright isn’t something to “cure”—and what to do instead
– The hidden power of preparation (and why introverts often overprepare)
– How to manage nerves, relate to your audience, and recover afterward
– What being a “Quiet Warrior” looks like in a world obsessed with visibility
– Mahlena’s 3-part framework from her book Speak Anyway (Relax • Relate • Release)
Whether you're a quiet achiever navigating leadership or an introvert dreaming of sharing your story, this episode is your permission slip to speak in a way that honors you.
Connect with Mahlena-Rae Johnson:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mahlena
Book: https://mahlenaspeaks.blogspot.com/2023/11/speak-an.html
Resources mentioned:
Gay Hendricks, The Big Leap | Conscious Luck | Your Big Leap Year
Call to action:
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, rate the show, and share it with someone who needs a little courage to speak anyway.
This episode was edited by Aura House Productions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to another episode of the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
Now today, I have got with mesomeone all the way from Toronto
, Canada.
She's a speaker, she's acomedian, a six-time author and
she's the Professor X forIntroverted CEOs with Stage
Fright.
Welcome, Melaina Rae Johnson,to the Quiet Warrior Podcast.
(00:59):
It's a delight to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
It's a delight to be here, Serena.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
What makes you call yourself Professor X for
introverted ed tech CEOs withstage fright?
I was just intrigued.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, I was trying to pick something that
encapsulated what I do in a waythat shows who I am.
So I have an entertainmentbackground.
I went to film school at LoyolaMarymount in Los Angeles and
then I went to business schoolat USC, which is one of the hubs
(01:35):
of entertainment.
So I love media and I also loveeducation.
I also love education and Ithink of myself as a person who
works in their zone of genius,and my zone of genius is to
unearth the superpower buriedinside of other leaders.
(01:57):
So with the superpower themeand the education theme, I
thought of Professor X and theeducation theme.
I thought of Professor X, whotries to teach his students and
his fellow teachers the best wayto bring out the superpowers
inside of each of them in aproductive way.
And that's what I want to dowith my fellow introverted CEOs
(02:18):
who may have stage fright or maynot have stage fright, but they
want to make their nextpresentation a success.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
If I remember also, professor X had a school you
know, especially dedicated andit was on his estate.
It was away from everyone.
It was a safe place for hisspecial young people to develop
their superpowers.
So would you say that safety isan essential part of an
(02:49):
introvert developing theirsuperpowers.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, I would.
The fun thing about me is thatI have discovered over the years
that I've always been a by atleast stubborn human being.
So, for instance, the accentthat I'm speaking with doesn't
reflect the places that Inecessarily was born or grew up
entirely.
(03:14):
I was born in Arkansas, in themiddle of the United States, and
I grew up in St Thomas in theUS Virgin Islands, and I speak
like the people on TV because Iwas raised by a VCR and a cable
box.
So, similarly, withintroversion, there are people
who wanted me to speak up more,say something louder, go and be
social.
(03:34):
I was like I like how I am, andthe thing that gave me the
safety to be who I am is myenvironment.
So there might've been a fewpeople who wanted me to change,
but for the most part the peoplein my life were supportive of
who I am.
Even though they may have saidtry to be more social, they
(03:59):
didn't chastise me for it, andthat's the kind of feeling that
I want to bring to other people.
The other thing is that,growing up in St Thomas, I was
sent St Thomas as part of the U?
S Virgin islands.
It's 80% black and matriarchal,so my existence was centered,
so I want to give other people asame sense of centeredness,
(04:21):
where, where um many peoplethink leaders have to be
extroverted, they have to beloud, they have to be in your
face all the time.
I want to give not only thepeople that I work with, but the
people I encounter the freedomto be themselves and to feel
like I am a person who not onlyaccepts them but celebrates them
(04:41):
for who they are.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
What is the connection between a matriarchal
community and that feeling ofcenteredness?
It sounded to me like whatyou're saying is, when you're
centered, you're not so worriedabout what other people think of
you and you're not trying sohard to fit into somebody else's
definition of how you should be.
But it's like you have a verysolid sense of yourself and you
(05:09):
can operate from that space.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yes, that is definitely true.
It is both my personality, sowhat I was born with and what's
inside of me, but also it's notsomething that I realized until
I left St Thomas that being in aspecifically Black and
matriarchal society allowed me,a Black woman, to say there's
lots of different ways to besomeone who looks like me.
(05:37):
The weirdness was when I hadinterest outside of the norms of
that society.
So when I had interest inthings like filmmaking or my
favorite TV shows or differentcomedians that other people
hadn't heard of because I waswatching Comedy Central so much,
the sense of who I was as ahuman wasn't questioned.
(06:03):
It was more of my interest thatpeople would find eccentric.
But I think the biggest thingthat happened for me in the
sense of accepting my interestsnot some, I guess some of what
of who I am was that theinternet got bigger so I could
(06:24):
find people who are interestedin feminism and interested in
the show Daria and interested inreruns of Get Smart and
interested in the originalDanger Mouse and connect with
those people in ways that Icouldn't before.
But there was never really aquestion of who I was as how I
(06:45):
presented in the world more ofwhy don't you speak up more,
even though, especially inschool, I was getting all the
answers right, so did I reallyneed to speak up more?
Or were people just trying tomake me what they thought of as
a better leader, even though Iled quietly, including in the
(07:05):
classroom?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And that is a problem .
I think a lot of our listenersface as well this pressure to
perform in a certain way to fitother people's expectations of
how we should be.
Now, why is it that people keeptelling quiet people to speak
up more or to speak louder?
What is it about being aquieter person that maybe makes
(07:29):
someone else uncomfortable?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Well, what I have found, not only with quiet
people but with the way that Ipresent, is it's a reflection of
that other person possiblywanting to fit in themselves,
and their proximity to themmakes them feel odd.
(07:54):
So, for example, in businessschool, I was not asked to speak
up more.
I raised my hand.
I had done a lot of preparationfor business school the month
before, reading all these booksabout how to get ready for
business school, and there'sthis whole thing about only
(08:15):
raising your hand once or twiceduring a class and then letting
other people speak Otherwise.
It feels like you're dominatingthe area.
So I was like, yeah, I canraise my hand once in class and
that'll be fine.
But there were people who didn'tlike my quirkiness, so they
would feel like they liked who Iwas, they liked what I was
(08:40):
bringing, but they didn't likethe presentation that I did it
in Like there's the time.
I doubt any of them arelistening, but if didn't like
the presentation that I did itin Like there there's the time.
I I doubt any of them arelistening, but if they are,
hello.
There is a time when someoneasked me why do you move your
hand so much like this?
And I was like, because I'mexcited about what I'm saying
and to them, that wasn't a wayto conduct yourself.
(09:01):
Like, like, the concept ofmoving my hand as I spoke about
something I was excited about,or just pumped in my fist like
this was too much for them tohandle and they told me that I
should change that because itthey thought it was an act like
I was performing and I was like,no, I'm just um in, uh, just
(09:23):
sharing my enthusiasm about thewords that are coming out of my
mouth with you.
So there are people who want tochange you because they want you
to be more normal, like them,in a way that they have seen the
world, and if you are doingsomething outside of that norm,
then it brings attention to themand they think a negative way
(09:46):
side of that norm.
Then it brings attention tothem and they think a negative
way.
So when people try to tellother people to be less quiet or
talk more, it's really aboutthem.
It's not about the person whoisn't talking, because the
person who isn't talking usuallyis just minding their business
and not getting anyone else intotrouble and also not saying
things that they haven'tresearched or have receipts for
(10:06):
or have thought out clearly.
So, yes, if someone's trying totell you to change whether they
want you to be louder orquieter or taller or shorter
it's usually about somethingthat's going on with that other
person, that they're insecurewith themselves and feel like if
they can change someone else,that can help them feel better.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Oh, that is the best.
That is the best mic drop sofar, and I'm expecting many more
to come from you, malena.
No expecting, yes, this idea ofit's on them.
It was never about me, it wasnever about you, not
specifically.
It's just a reflection of whereother people are in their
(10:50):
journey and their relationshipwith themselves.
So if we're out of sync withourselves, we're more likely to
notice things about other peoplethat sort of irritate us a
little bit, make usuncomfortable, make us reflect,
maybe make us look at ourselvesand you're right, we don't want
to look at ourselves.
Sometimes it takes courage tolook at ourselves, to look
inside ourselves, to askquestions that may disturb the
(11:14):
waters, and then it means I'vegot to go and change something
about myself, and change is hardwork.
Change is not something we doand you see the results
immediately.
It's a process and noteveryone's willing to go there.
So thank you for spotlightingthat, because I think that's
going to give anyone listening alot of perspective and a lot of
(11:37):
courage when they realize it'snot about them.
It's actually just a reflectionof where someone else is, and
just imagine if we had to alsoacquire that shape-shifting
superpower of trying to pleaseor mind-read every single person
we come across and thencalibrate our body language, our
tone, our accent, whatever,just to make them happy.
(11:59):
How much work would that be?
How much mental toll, emotionaltoll would that take on each
person?
It just doesn't make sense.
It still makes sense to comeback to your center to know who
you are, to be proud of that, tobe happy in that, to take
delight in that and just expressyourself authentically that way
that is true.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
It's something that I learned more about when I moved
from St Thomas to Los Angelesabout the one, the idea of code
switching, and to the idea ofrespectability pot politics.
So one code switching issomething I never did, which did
annoy some people in St Thomasthat I did it it wasn't that
(12:43):
many people, but some people inSt Thomas that I didn't.
It wasn't that many people.
But some people were like, oh,how long have you been here?
I was like, uh, for years.
And then they would say, well,you haven't learned the accent
yet.
I'm like, no, I just speak likethis, it's fine.
And then respectabilitypolitics is something I learned
more about when I came back tothe mainland United States,
(13:05):
about trying to change who youare to be acceptable,
specifically in corporateculture, and I just didn't feel
like I needed to do that orwanted to do that.
But so many people have boughtinto that and it's unfortunate.
It's not just an introvertedthing, but it is a uh, what is
(13:27):
it?
It's I wouldn't just say peopleof color thing, it'd be a
non-white people thing to feellike I have to change to be
accepted.
And, um, I saw more people inbusiness school do that with
their names, which is a wholething that I hadn't been
familiar with until then andsomething that I'm still
continuing to learn about now.
(13:48):
But I know who I am and how Iam, and I would rather learn
more about why people want tochange to fit in than condemn
them for doing that.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So you're talking about a healthy curiosity and
maybe some compassion as well,understanding the whys and the
wherefores, the story behind itand what drives people to try so
hard to fit in.
Coming from Singapore, I didn'treally have that problem with
the code switching and therespectability politics you
(14:23):
mentioned, not to that extent ofhaving to change my name or
anything and then migrating toAustralia.
I didn't have to do that aswell because I already had a
first name, an English soundingkind of first name.
So that was, I guess it waseasy for other people.
But I do know, know manyfriends, other women of color,
(14:46):
who have changed their firstnames because other people found
it difficult to pronounce andmaybe they were just tired of
having to correct theirpronunciation every time or
explain how it should sound, andso they just modified it, the
first name, to something that'sjust anglo-sounding, just to
(15:06):
make it easy for other people.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, well, I have had to tell people how my name
is pronounced since I couldpronounce my day.
So there is a uh, and the onlythe only thing that I have done
for me is just tell people tocall me by the first part of my
first name, because I like thatit had nothing to do with
(15:29):
anybody else, but there is aunderstanding of that had never
(15:50):
had the concept in my mind ofchanging the name that I was
given so that other people couldhave an easier time with this.
I was like, why, like,especially after I heard of I
think it was uh, was it a Dobus?
Uh, mother talking aboutTchaikovsky and Schwarzenegger
and and something else, probablyGalifianakis, and people can
figure out how to pronouncethose names.
So Uzo is fine it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's uh, that's a whole other conversation that
could take another hour if wewanted to dive deep into that
one.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Okay, what is next on Serena's list?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, but back to the central point of today's
conversation, which is stagefright, and I know a lot of
introverts, and maybe someextroverts too, will have
encountered that at some point.
I know I certainly have had mymind blank out when I was
standing and looking at 200people and suddenly forgot my
lines and lost my momentum for abit.
(16:48):
Talk to us about stage fright,how it affects people, and is it
something that can be cured?
Is it something that can beovercome?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Well, I like to say that I teach you how to feel the
fear and speak anyway.
So it's not necessarilysomething that you overcome or
try to cure like introversion.
They're related not necessarilythe same thing, because
extroverts have stage fright too, but stage fright is something
(17:18):
that I haven't had, because Iget excited about having my
allotted time on stage.
The thing that I get morenervous about is speaking in a
small group of people andwanting to say something and
someone else is still talking,and then I have this idea that I
wanted to share, but theconversations moved on to a
(17:41):
thing and I'm like can I stillsay that or not?
Is it my turn?
But when there's a stage,either a physical stage or a
stage online, where you'representing to a group of people
on Zoom or whatever platform youhave, it's nice to have the
time allotted for me, because itgives me a sense of structure,
(18:02):
of expectation, that I'm goingto speak for this amount of time
.
I will be ready for that amountof time and then, when the time
is done, I will leave the stageand recover by myself, and
hopefully the question andanswers are included in that
time For other people.
The concept of having that timeallotted for you to fill makes
(18:24):
them scared because they start.
They don't think of what couldgo right.
They think of what could gowrong, not outside things like
an earthquake or an alieninvasion or a fire.
They think they'll forget theirlines or they'll know what to
(18:44):
say, but no one will like it orit won't have the effect they
want.
So, understandably, people getafraid when there's a bunch of
people looking at them andexpecting them to perform in a
way that is suitable.
Perform in a way that issuitable, as I like to tell
(19:08):
people overall, if they get onemessage from me is that your
audience wants you to do well.
They don't want things to beawkward, they don't want things
to go wrong.
They want you to have anenjoyable time on stage, because
that means that they're havingan enjoyable time listening to
you, and they want it to go well.
Usually, you're not a stand-upcomedian with hecklers in the
(19:29):
audience throwing tomatoes atyou.
You're just delivering somesort of presentation or speech
or whatever you're doing, andthe people who have decided to
show up to listen or were forcedto go see you want it to go
well, because that means thattheir time was well spent.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I love that you mentioned some people might have
been forced to go see you andmight have ambivalent feelings
about being there.
But yes, I do agree and I findthat very helpful to think of it
, as when I'm in the audience,I'm actually mentally cheering
for the speaker.
I want them to do well.
Yes, I want it to be a good wayto use my time.
(20:08):
I'm there to learn somethingnew and I want this person to be
able to showcase what is itthat they're standing up there
for, and I also know what it'slike to be on the stage and
therefore I have thatsympathetic response towards
them.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
And.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I think most of us are kind people and good people.
We are all cheering for thespeaker.
We know it's not easy to be theone on the stage, and so there
is that feeling of goodwill andsupport.
And so I think when someone ison the stage and is given that
opportunity to speak, they doneed to realize that they are
already surrounded by a wave ofgoodwill and everybody there is
(20:48):
rooting for them, and to maybetap into or borrow some of that
energy for themselves and maybenot make it so much about
themselves too, but more likethey are being a conduit or they
are being a vehicle to sharesomething that could be
impactful to one or two peoplein the audience.
And if that's all that isalready, you've done something
(21:09):
amazing.
You've changed someone'strajectory, someone's
perspective, someone's day, andthat as itself, I think, is
significant.
So maybe we need to be a lotkinder to ourselves yes, yes, we
do in general?
Yes, so a while ago youmentioned being in your zone of
(21:30):
excellence and being in yourzone of genius.
Talk to us about why thatmatters and what's the
difference between the two.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Well, I got the phrases from Gay Hendricks when
I read his book the Big Leap,and then I read subsequent books
of his, including ConsciousLuck and oh, loss of pencil.
And I just finished your BigLeap Year.
It's a 365-day, essentiallyjournal that follows along the
(22:00):
Big Le leap and the conceptsthat are in all of these books
is working your zone ofexcellence versus your zone of
genius.
So these are the two highestlevels.
There's two other ones, I thinkit's competence and stuff that
you're just not capable at atall.
So for a while, multiple years,I was working in my zone of
(22:26):
excellence, which was helpingstudents get into college,
university, graduate school, aswell as business school, medical
school, by helping them withtheir admissions packages,
including their standardizedtests, including the SAT, act,
(22:47):
gmat, gre, toefl and someCalifornia specific tests.
So I was great at helpingpeople do math and English in a
way that is standardized by USinstitutions.
I was good at helping themcreate an overall package, so
(23:07):
not just focusing on the testbut on what they are putting in
the rest of the application,including their essays, branding
themselves as a specific typeof student that would fit into a
specific type of school for thereasons that they have
established.
By visiting the school andtalking to admissions officers
(23:28):
and I was great at that I helpedpeople get into places like
Brown and Auburn.
One person got a fullscholarship to Berkeley and took
a partial scholarship to UCLA,notre Dame, I think it was a
University of Chicago, loyolaMed School.
(23:49):
So different places around theUnited States and I think some
other countries too.
But what I've discovered is Ilove talking to leaders, so
people who have gone throughschool and are now running their
own businesses, and identifyingthat what they're doing could
(24:15):
be so much more than whatthey're doing at the moment, so
recognizing that there'ssomething inside of them that
they're not necessarilybelieving in or listening to.
And because I'm an introvert andbecause I like performing on
stage as I used to study dancein both high school and
(24:36):
university, I also did stand upcomedy in both Los Angeles and
in Toronto I like being someonewho's on stage and I like doing
that, and I know that otherpeople don't like doing that,
but they have to to put to movetheir business forward.
So it would be easy to stay inmy zone of excellence, but it
(25:00):
would not be satisfying and it'sa lot harder to work in my zone
of genius, creating, developingmy coaching business in a
different way than is alreadyestablished.
But I know that working in myzone of genius will help me
exercise my superpower insteadof hiding it under a bushel
(25:21):
basket, because there's a bigrisk.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I love that Not hiding your light under a bushel
basket.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yes, it's something that Jim Gaffigan said in one of
his shows.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I see, but the connection though with improv
and comedy, I would imagine thatthe whole idea of improv is you
don't know, right.
There is a lot of uncertaintyin that whole exercise.
How does that sit with being anintrovert?
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Well, I haven't done improv specifically, so I was in
standup.
The difference between them isimprov is usually a group
setting and standup is usuallysingular.
There's exceptions to each rule.
But in standup you have to goon stage and your goal is to
make people laugh.
And it could be hard if you'renot prepared, which is why I
(26:23):
like to bring the preparation tomy coaching and emphasize that
in these presentations thatyou're doing, especially if
you're a CEO in ed tech, noone's expecting you to be funny.
They're expecting you to have abackground in education.
So they're not used to peoplenecessarily aiming to be funny.
(26:46):
They're usually expecting avery heartfelt story about how
you helped uh, your producthelps someone learn in a
classroom.
It helped a teacher to gettheir life back.
Um, it helps parents to connectbetter with your children.
So being prepared is the thingthat I would say is the link
(27:12):
between stand up and deliveringa text speech as a leader of
your company, but also knowingyour audience.
So in standup, the best peoplewho are on the road.
I've never been on the road, butif you're an on the road comic,
you have to adjust to eachdifferent venue.
(27:36):
So if you're going to a venuein Stockholm.
That's different than a venuein London, which is different
than a venue in Sydney.
You have to know what's goingon.
In each of your locations, thecustoms say things that are
relevant to the person you'retalking to.
(27:58):
For instance, these are thesocks that were on the bed right
now, but they have kangaroos,can you see it?
Uh, so I got these.
These aren't even mine, but, uh, but they were, they were a
gift.
Uh and um.
You talk, you speak to thepeople that are in front of you
(28:21):
at the time.
So when you're an ed tech,you're not always speaking to
the same audience, not only interms of teachers versus
superintendents versus investors.
You're also in differentlocations.
So a big city, a little city,sometimes different languages.
(28:42):
So incorporating the culture ofthe location that you're in and
the people that you're with isapplicable to both going on the
road during standup or going onthe road doing a pitching tour,
trying to get people to buy intoyour product or service.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And I would say that that is a general rule as well,
that applies to any kind ofpresentation, any kind of
occasion.
When you are speaking withpeople, if you make that extra
effort to cater what you'resaying to what's personal to the
other person like you with yourgorgeous kangaroo socks it
(29:29):
makes you more memorable.
It shows that you've put inthat extra effort, you've done
that extra prep, you've noticed,you've paid attention, and that
, too, is a trait of theintrovert, isn't it?
The attention to detail, thepreparation, that wanting to be
that student that goes in therehaving already done some reading
and eager to put up your hand,not because you're trying to
(29:51):
dominate the conversation or hogattention or anything, but
because you have something tosay that is of value and you
want to share that.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yes, that is true, but also allow for the wind.
I forgot where it was.
No, that that's.
I do remember.
It's from it's the quote fromget, where Max says to somebody
you forgot to allow for the wind.
And sometimes you need to allowfor the wind not only if you're
outside, but allow for magic tohappen when you're not
(30:22):
expecting it.
Example I planned my top of myoutfit and ironed my shirt and
my cardigan because I thought itwould be on video.
The socks came a few minutesago, well before we started,
because my feet were cold andthey were on the bed available.
(30:43):
So there's stuff that you canprepare for and be like, yes,
I'm ready.
And then there's stuff thatjust happens and you can let it
happen and it can be great.
So definitely be prepared, butalso allow for the magic to
happen.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I love that because I think a lot of times the
introverts stress comes from notbeing able to foresee every
single thing, not being able toprepare a hundred percent, and
that makes us really upset,because we want to be that good
student.
We want to be that you know,solidly prepared person who
knows what they're doing andknows what they're going to say.
But you are right the wind, thesun, the, the hormone levels
(31:22):
anything could be something thatderails us.
But also allowing the magic,allowing for the unexpected,
allowing for the quirks, the,the miracles, the little
serendipities andsynchronicities of, you know,
kangaroo socks showing up at theright time.
And also, I love the words onthe top that you've got on today
(31:44):
oh, yes, it's, it's my, it's ashirt that I made for my
business.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It says uh, what is your story?
So I was planning to wear.
I worn this to a conferencebefore and I put I have an
orange one as well.
It has a different thing on it.
I forgot exactly what it says,but I made them because I was
excited about.
Oh, this is my shirt for mybusiness.
And then people will come up tome and ask and not that many
people have, but it's still nice.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Really, I would have thought you would have had a
line of people coming up and,you know, asking you what is
your story, or wanting to tellyou their story.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Well, people, there's a lot going on at different
conferences, so people getdistracted.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's true, usually it's the coffee Right.
I?
That's true, usually it's thecoffee Right.
I wanted to ask you you have aprogram called Speak Anyway, the
number one public speakingguide for introverted CEOs with
stage fright.
Tell us more about that.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Well, that is my book , my sixth book, and it is a
short book.
It's short and funny, like me,and it's both a narrative and a
non-narrative guide.
So there's a story in it abouta pair of EdTech CEOs.
(33:02):
The main character is Jordan.
She and her friend Casey are atan EdTech conference where
Casey has just spoken and Jordanis expecting her chief
marketing officer of her companyto come deliver the final
keynote of the last day of theconference.
But her chief marketingofficer's wife goes into labor
(33:25):
with twins and Jordan has todeliver the speech.
So the book follows Jordan'sthree parts of her, I guess,
acceptance that she has toactually deliver the speech, not
the person who is skilled andtrained to do so she has.
(33:47):
The first part of the book isher relaxing because she knows
she can't be all tense, andpreparing for what's going to
happen, relating, which is whereshe's actually delivering the
speech and being in the moment.
So, knowing that she has donethe preparation, and now it's
time for her to not only deliverthe words to the audience but
(34:10):
also take them in.
And in the middle of thedelivery she does forget what
she's saying and just tells themwhat's happening instead of
trying to figure out where herplace is.
She explains the situation thatthere are babies being
delivered, they're fine, and nowshe's the one that has to be on
(34:32):
stage in front of thousands ofpeople.
And then the last part of thebook is release.
So releasing all of the anxietythat she built up and noting
that she prepared beforehand tohave space to recover and she
gave people an action step to dothat does not involve
(34:54):
bombarding her when she stepsoff the stage, but contacting
someone else who can take all oftheir questions that she will
get back to as soon as theconference is over.
So it also has things for youto do.
Along with Jordan, create yourown 30-second speech, go over
(35:17):
the preparation that you wouldhave during your presentation
and planning how you cancapitalize on the presentation
after without wearing yourselfout.
So I like to think it's funny.
It gives you actual things todo and it shows you an example
of someone who is in the sameposition as you an introverted
(35:39):
CEO who didn't expect to give aspeech, but learns how valuable
it can be to be the face of yourown company.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I love that.
Your three hours of relaxing,relating, releasing yes it came
from a different world.
Came from a different world.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yes, did you watch a different world?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
No I didn't Okay.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Well, it was on in the early 90s and it was about
an HBCU called Hillman Collegein Virginia and Debbie Allen not
only produced the show, she wasin the show as one of the main
characters therapist and shetold her to relax.
Relate release.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Fantastic.
That's a very succinct way tohelp someone who is going
through stage fright, which isalso a perfect segue to the
theme of the Quiet Warriorpodcast, because this is about
quiet achievers growing intoquiet warriors, and, to me, a
quiet warrior can rise to theoccasion when needed.
So, you know, in a case likeyours, where someone is asked to
(36:45):
do a presentation at the lastminute and they don't feel 100%
prepared, they're a little bitshocked by the whole thing there
is a process that you can takethem through to help them
actually rise to the occasionand deliver, and I love that.
What is your perception of whata quiet warrior is?
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Well, I like to think of a duck paddling across a
pond like synchronized swimmers.
So like the duck.
You see the calmness of theduck on the top of the pond and
underneath their little paddlesor paddling, their feet are
going every which way in thewater, but it looks really nice
(37:27):
on the top.
So sometimes I will say, forpeople who are working in
corporate environments or justemployees for whatever reason,
there's always a sense of youneed to look busy so that people
think that you're doingsomething, whereas people who
(37:49):
often are doing the mostefficiently, effectively, with
the best result, are notnecessarily loud about it.
They are getting the work done,not necessarily talking about
the work that they are doing allthe time because they're
actually doing the work.
Or sometimes they are not doingthings because they know that
(38:14):
will get in the way of actualproductivity happening.
So, being a quiet warrior for me, even though I do like to tell
people about what I'm doing sothey know and they stay informed
, because some people like towatch my videos or read my posts
and be excited for me A lot ofthe work that I'm doing I can't
(38:37):
do in front of everybody,because a lot of what I'm doing
now is connecting with peoplethrough 30-minute video calls,
people that I am inspired by, sothose are not things that I'm
recording and showing otherpeople.
It's building my community andstrengthening my village and
encouraging other people to dothe same, because that's where
(39:00):
the success lies.
It's not about being theloudest and the best and showing
everybody what you're doing allthe time.
Sometimes it is doing the workand you could do it quietly, or
you can do it and you can do itconfidently.
You can report back yourfindings afterwards, like I do,
(39:25):
tell people that I do have theselovely coffee chats and explain
the benefits of doing them.
But talking about what you'redoing all the time and trying to
make sure everyone hears you isnot necessarily the way to get
(39:46):
to your goal and it's not theway that introverts necessarily
like to function.
So if it takes you doingsomething quietly to win a war
or to plant your garden or toconnect with your community,
then do it in the way that'sbest for you and you can be
(40:07):
quiet about it if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
So there is a lot of freedom in that, I think,
because the pressure of being onsocial media, of trying to put
yourself out there, as we areencouraged to do so, often takes
a toll too.
It takes time away and energyaway from the deep work that
introverts love.
We love to go into our littlecave and meditate and ponder and
(40:32):
think up all the wise thingsthat's coming out of our spirits
and how to curate it and shapeit in a way that's
understandable to somebody else,that can be shared and makes it
shareable.
All that takes energy and thatkind of deep work is best done
in solitude, where we, theminute you have to talk about it
(40:55):
, a different kind of energycomes in, isn't it?
Which I think takes away fromthat the joy of that kind of
creative process.
So I really hear you there andI agree with you that it's
important to know how to balancethat need, for this is my time
to do my deep work, my research,my study.
(41:16):
When I'm ready to come out ofmy cave and share it with people
, I will do so, but I don't needto feel compelled to be talking
all the time, to be out thereall the time, to be exposed all
the time to have to comment andreceive comments and have to
think about all those otherthings because they can be
distracting.
Those are attention stealers,aren't they?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
They can be.
And so there's also a need torecognize that everything is not
for everybody body.
So there are people who do verywell by by being on display 24,
seven or however many hours aday they want to, and that is,
(42:00):
that is, a business model or alifestyle that works for them
and get gives them what theywant.
And also that is is a a reasonthat I didn't continue stand-up
comedy.
Um, not directly because of thelook at me, look at me thing,
but it's um for me.
(42:21):
I loved being able to write thejokes and deliver them and then
write new jokes and deliverthose.
But for so many standup comicsit is about the feeling of
people laughing at you andappreciating you and that's
what's fueling them.
And for me it was thecreativity.
And I don't need the attentionand the acceptance of a crowd
(42:48):
every night, but some peoplefeed off that and that works for
them.
For other people, doing thedeep work can be with another
person or it can be with a group, but it doesn't necessarily
need to be documented and shown,or it can be documented and
shown later.
So there's nothing wrong withwanting to be seen, but
(43:15):
expecting everyone to have thesame desired lifestyle is not
helpful.
We should really embrace theconcept of different
personalities and differentbusiness models and different
ways to be in the world, withoutpeople feeling like extroverts
(43:37):
are the right way to be andintroverts are the wrong way to
be.
We can all be all thesepersonalities all the time.
We just have to accept eachother and celebrate what works
for each person.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
I think that's a beautiful way to wrap up our
conversation today, malena, andwhat is the best way for people
to get in touch with you andfind out more about your work?
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Well, the best way to get in touch with me is on
LinkedIn.
It's linkedincom slash in slashMalena.
Touch with me is on LinkedIn.
It's linkedincom slash in slashMilena.
And if you type in the firstpart of my first name in Google
or Bing or your preferred searchengine, you will find
everything about me.
It's M-A-H-L-E-N-A and there'sonly a couple of us with that
(44:25):
name, so I'm the one.
It looks like me, fun and funny.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Love and funny love that.
Yes, so we're gonna have allyour you know, your website and
social media links and, uh, allall the necessary ways for
people to get in touch with youin the show notes as well, and
thank you so much for ourconversation today.
Thank you for bringing joy andbrightness on a topic like stage
(44:55):
fright.
Is there one final thing youwant to share with our listeners
today about stage fright andovercoming it and their
relationship with speaking?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
with speaking.
The main thing I want to say,like Serena said before, is that
we should all be kind toourselves.
So if you have stage fright oryou have anxiety about speaking,
it's okay to acknowledge thatit's not something to berate
yourself for or feel embarrassedabout.
Just acknowledge that speakingis something that provide that
that gives you anxiety, but alsoit gives you an opportunity to
(45:40):
share your story and who you are, because more of us, especially
introverts, need to share ourstories in a way that makes
sense for us.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Thank you.
Thank you, Melaina, and thankyou for listening to this
episode of the Quiet Warriorpodcast.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, I encourage you to
review it, rate it on yourlistening platform and share
this episode with a friend whocould benefit from understanding
how we can speak and share ourstories and be ourselves
(46:12):
authentically in a world that isnoisy and chaotic and that
doesn't always make room for thequiet ones.
So thank you and I'll see youon the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Together, we can help more introverts thrive To
receive more uplifting contentlike this.
Connect with me on Instagram at.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Serena Lo Quiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to another episode of the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
Now today, I have got with mesomeone all the way from Toronto
, Canada.
She's a speaker, she's acomedian, a six-time author and
she's the Professor X forIntroverted CEOs with Stage
Fright.
Welcome, Melaina Rae Johnson,to the Quiet Warrior Podcast.
(00:59):
It's a delight to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
It's a delight to be here, Serena.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
What makes you call yourself Professor X for
introverted ed tech CEOs withstage fright?
I was just intrigued.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, I was trying to pick something that
encapsulated what I do in a waythat shows who I am.
So I have an entertainmentbackground.
I went to film school at LoyolaMarymount in Los Angeles and
then I went to business schoolat USC, which is one of the hubs
(01:35):
of entertainment.
So I love media and I also loveeducation.
I also love education and Ithink of myself as a person who
works in their zone of genius,and my zone of genius is to
unearth the superpower buriedinside of other leaders.
(01:57):
So with the superpower themeand the education theme, I
thought of Professor X and theeducation theme.
I thought of Professor X, whotries to teach his students and
his fellow teachers the best wayto bring out the superpowers
inside of each of them in aproductive way.
And that's what I want to dowith my fellow introverted CEOs
(02:18):
who may have stage fright or maynot have stage fright, but they
want to make their nextpresentation a success.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
If I remember also, professor X had a school you
know, especially dedicated andit was on his estate.
It was away from everyone.
It was a safe place for hisspecial young people to develop
their superpowers.
So would you say that safety isan essential part of an
(02:49):
introvert developing theirsuperpowers.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, I would.
The fun thing about me is thatI have discovered over the years
that I've always been a by atleast stubborn human being.
So, for instance, the accentthat I'm speaking with doesn't
reflect the places that Inecessarily was born or grew up
entirely.
(03:14):
I was born in Arkansas, in themiddle of the United States, and
I grew up in St Thomas in theUS Virgin Islands, and I speak
like the people on TV because Iwas raised by a VCR and a cable
box.
So, similarly, withintroversion, there are people
who wanted me to speak up more,say something louder, go and be
social.
(03:34):
I was like I like how I am, andthe thing that gave me the
safety to be who I am is myenvironment.
So there might've been a fewpeople who wanted me to change,
but for the most part the peoplein my life were supportive of
who I am.
Even though they may have saidtry to be more social, they
(03:59):
didn't chastise me for it, andthat's the kind of feeling that
I want to bring to other people.
The other thing is that,growing up in St Thomas, I was
sent St Thomas as part of the U?
S Virgin islands.
It's 80% black and matriarchal,so my existence was centered,
so I want to give other people asame sense of centeredness,
(04:21):
where, where um many peoplethink leaders have to be
extroverted, they have to beloud, they have to be in your
face all the time.
I want to give not only thepeople that I work with, but the
people I encounter the freedomto be themselves and to feel
like I am a person who not onlyaccepts them but celebrates them
(04:41):
for who they are.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
What is the connection between a matriarchal
community and that feeling ofcenteredness?
It sounded to me like whatyou're saying is, when you're
centered, you're not so worriedabout what other people think of
you and you're not trying sohard to fit into somebody else's
definition of how you should be.
But it's like you have a verysolid sense of yourself and you
(05:09):
can operate from that space.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yes, that is definitely true.
It is both my personality, sowhat I was born with and what's
inside of me, but also it's notsomething that I realized until
I left St Thomas that being in aspecifically Black and
matriarchal society allowed me,a Black woman, to say there's
lots of different ways to besomeone who looks like me.
(05:37):
The weirdness was when I hadinterest outside of the norms of
that society.
So when I had interest inthings like filmmaking or my
favorite TV shows or differentcomedians that other people
hadn't heard of because I waswatching Comedy Central so much,
the sense of who I was as ahuman wasn't questioned.
(06:03):
It was more of my interest thatpeople would find eccentric.
But I think the biggest thingthat happened for me in the
sense of accepting my interestsnot some, I guess some of what
of who I am was that theinternet got bigger so I could
(06:24):
find people who are interestedin feminism and interested in
the show Daria and interested inreruns of Get Smart and
interested in the originalDanger Mouse and connect with
those people in ways that Icouldn't before.
But there was never really aquestion of who I was as how I
(06:45):
presented in the world more ofwhy don't you speak up more,
even though, especially inschool, I was getting all the
answers right, so did I reallyneed to speak up more?
Or were people just trying tomake me what they thought of as
a better leader, even though Iled quietly, including in the
(07:05):
classroom?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And that is a problem .
I think a lot of our listenersface as well this pressure to
perform in a certain way to fitother people's expectations of
how we should be.
Now, why is it that people keeptelling quiet people to speak
up more or to speak louder?
What is it about being aquieter person that maybe makes
(07:29):
someone else uncomfortable?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Well, what I have found, not only with quiet
people but with the way that Ipresent, is it's a reflection of
that other person possiblywanting to fit in themselves,
and their proximity to themmakes them feel odd.
(07:54):
So, for example, in businessschool, I was not asked to speak
up more.
I raised my hand.
I had done a lot of preparationfor business school the month
before, reading all these booksabout how to get ready for
business school, and there'sthis whole thing about only
(08:15):
raising your hand once or twiceduring a class and then letting
other people speak Otherwise.
It feels like you're dominatingthe area.
So I was like, yeah, I canraise my hand once in class and
that'll be fine.
But there were people who didn'tlike my quirkiness, so they
would feel like they liked who Iwas, they liked what I was
(08:40):
bringing, but they didn't likethe presentation that I did it
in Like there's the time.
I doubt any of them arelistening, but if didn't like
the presentation that I did itin Like there there's the time.
I I doubt any of them arelistening, but if they are,
hello.
There is a time when someoneasked me why do you move your
hand so much like this?
And I was like, because I'mexcited about what I'm saying
and to them, that wasn't a wayto conduct yourself.
(09:01):
Like, like, the concept ofmoving my hand as I spoke about
something I was excited about,or just pumped in my fist like
this was too much for them tohandle and they told me that I
should change that because itthey thought it was an act like
I was performing and I was like,no, I'm just um in, uh, just
(09:23):
sharing my enthusiasm about thewords that are coming out of my
mouth with you.
So there are people who want tochange you because they want you
to be more normal, like them,in a way that they have seen the
world, and if you are doingsomething outside of that norm,
then it brings attention to themand they think a negative way
(09:46):
side of that norm.
Then it brings attention tothem and they think a negative
way.
So when people try to tellother people to be less quiet or
talk more, it's really aboutthem.
It's not about the person whoisn't talking, because the
person who isn't talking usuallyis just minding their business
and not getting anyone else intotrouble and also not saying
things that they haven'tresearched or have receipts for
(10:06):
or have thought out clearly.
So, yes, if someone's trying totell you to change whether they
want you to be louder orquieter or taller or shorter
it's usually about somethingthat's going on with that other
person, that they're insecurewith themselves and feel like if
they can change someone else,that can help them feel better.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Oh, that is the best.
That is the best mic drop sofar, and I'm expecting many more
to come from you, malena.
No expecting, yes, this idea ofit's on them.
It was never about me, it wasnever about you, not
specifically.
It's just a reflection of whereother people are in their
(10:50):
journey and their relationshipwith themselves.
So if we're out of sync withourselves, we're more likely to
notice things about other peoplethat sort of irritate us a
little bit, make usuncomfortable, make us reflect,
maybe make us look at ourselvesand you're right, we don't want
to look at ourselves.
Sometimes it takes courage tolook at ourselves, to look
inside ourselves, to askquestions that may disturb the
(11:14):
waters, and then it means I'vegot to go and change something
about myself, and change is hardwork.
Change is not something we doand you see the results
immediately.
It's a process and noteveryone's willing to go there.
So thank you for spotlightingthat, because I think that's
going to give anyone listening alot of perspective and a lot of
(11:37):
courage when they realize it'snot about them.
It's actually just a reflectionof where someone else is, and
just imagine if we had to alsoacquire that shape-shifting
superpower of trying to pleaseor mind-read every single person
we come across and thencalibrate our body language, our
tone, our accent, whatever,just to make them happy.
(11:59):
How much work would that be?
How much mental toll, emotionaltoll would that take on each
person?
It just doesn't make sense.
It still makes sense to comeback to your center to know who
you are, to be proud of that, tobe happy in that, to take
delight in that and just expressyourself authentically that way
that is true.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
It's something that I learned more about when I moved
from St Thomas to Los Angelesabout the one, the idea of code
switching, and to the idea ofrespectability pot politics.
So one code switching issomething I never did, which did
annoy some people in St Thomasthat I did it it wasn't that
(12:43):
many people, but some people inSt Thomas that I didn't.
It wasn't that many people.
But some people were like, oh,how long have you been here?
I was like, uh, for years.
And then they would say, well,you haven't learned the accent
yet.
I'm like, no, I just speak likethis, it's fine.
And then respectabilitypolitics is something I learned
more about when I came back tothe mainland United States,
(13:05):
about trying to change who youare to be acceptable,
specifically in corporateculture, and I just didn't feel
like I needed to do that orwanted to do that.
But so many people have boughtinto that and it's unfortunate.
It's not just an introvertedthing, but it is a uh, what is
(13:27):
it?
It's I wouldn't just say peopleof color thing, it'd be a
non-white people thing to feellike I have to change to be
accepted.
And, um, I saw more people inbusiness school do that with
their names, which is a wholething that I hadn't been
familiar with until then andsomething that I'm still
continuing to learn about now.
(13:48):
But I know who I am and how Iam, and I would rather learn
more about why people want tochange to fit in than condemn
them for doing that.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So you're talking about a healthy curiosity and
maybe some compassion as well,understanding the whys and the
wherefores, the story behind itand what drives people to try so
hard to fit in.
Coming from Singapore, I didn'treally have that problem with
the code switching and therespectability politics you
(14:23):
mentioned, not to that extent ofhaving to change my name or
anything and then migrating toAustralia.
I didn't have to do that aswell because I already had a
first name, an English soundingkind of first name.
So that was, I guess it waseasy for other people.
But I do know, know manyfriends, other women of color,
(14:46):
who have changed their firstnames because other people found
it difficult to pronounce andmaybe they were just tired of
having to correct theirpronunciation every time or
explain how it should sound, andso they just modified it, the
first name, to something that'sjust anglo-sounding, just to
(15:06):
make it easy for other people.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, well, I have had to tell people how my name
is pronounced since I couldpronounce my day.
So there is a uh, and the onlythe only thing that I have done
for me is just tell people tocall me by the first part of my
first name, because I like thatit had nothing to do with
(15:29):
anybody else, but there is aunderstanding of that had never
(15:50):
had the concept in my mind ofchanging the name that I was
given so that other people couldhave an easier time with this.
I was like, why, like,especially after I heard of I
think it was uh, was it a Dobus?
Uh, mother talking aboutTchaikovsky and Schwarzenegger
and and something else, probablyGalifianakis, and people can
figure out how to pronouncethose names.
So Uzo is fine it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's uh, that's a whole other conversation that
could take another hour if wewanted to dive deep into that
one.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Okay, what is next on Serena's list?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, but back to the central point of today's
conversation, which is stagefright, and I know a lot of
introverts, and maybe someextroverts too, will have
encountered that at some point.
I know I certainly have had mymind blank out when I was
standing and looking at 200people and suddenly forgot my
lines and lost my momentum for abit.
(16:48):
Talk to us about stage fright,how it affects people, and is it
something that can be cured?
Is it something that can beovercome?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Well, I like to say that I teach you how to feel the
fear and speak anyway.
So it's not necessarilysomething that you overcome or
try to cure like introversion.
They're related not necessarilythe same thing, because
extroverts have stage fright too, but stage fright is something
(17:18):
that I haven't had, because Iget excited about having my
allotted time on stage.
The thing that I get morenervous about is speaking in a
small group of people andwanting to say something and
someone else is still talking,and then I have this idea that I
wanted to share, but theconversations moved on to a
(17:41):
thing and I'm like can I stillsay that or not?
Is it my turn?
But when there's a stage,either a physical stage or a
stage online, where you'representing to a group of people
on Zoom or whatever platform youhave, it's nice to have the
time allotted for me, because itgives me a sense of structure,
(18:02):
of expectation, that I'm goingto speak for this amount of time
.
I will be ready for that amountof time and then, when the time
is done, I will leave the stageand recover by myself, and
hopefully the question andanswers are included in that
time For other people.
The concept of having that timeallotted for you to fill makes
(18:24):
them scared because they start.
They don't think of what couldgo right.
They think of what could gowrong, not outside things like
an earthquake or an alieninvasion or a fire.
They think they'll forget theirlines or they'll know what to
(18:44):
say, but no one will like it orit won't have the effect they
want.
So, understandably, people getafraid when there's a bunch of
people looking at them andexpecting them to perform in a
way that is suitable.
Perform in a way that issuitable, as I like to tell
(19:08):
people overall, if they get onemessage from me is that your
audience wants you to do well.
They don't want things to beawkward, they don't want things
to go wrong.
They want you to have anenjoyable time on stage, because
that means that they're havingan enjoyable time listening to
you, and they want it to go well.
Usually, you're not a stand-upcomedian with hecklers in the
(19:29):
audience throwing tomatoes atyou.
You're just delivering somesort of presentation or speech
or whatever you're doing, andthe people who have decided to
show up to listen or were forcedto go see you want it to go
well, because that means thattheir time was well spent.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I love that you mentioned some people might have
been forced to go see you andmight have ambivalent feelings
about being there.
But yes, I do agree and I findthat very helpful to think of it
, as when I'm in the audience,I'm actually mentally cheering
for the speaker.
I want them to do well.
Yes, I want it to be a good wayto use my time.
(20:08):
I'm there to learn somethingnew and I want this person to be
able to showcase what is itthat they're standing up there
for, and I also know what it'slike to be on the stage and
therefore I have thatsympathetic response towards
them.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
And.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I think most of us are kind people and good people.
We are all cheering for thespeaker.
We know it's not easy to be theone on the stage, and so there
is that feeling of goodwill andsupport.
And so I think when someone ison the stage and is given that
opportunity to speak, they doneed to realize that they are
already surrounded by a wave ofgoodwill and everybody there is
(20:48):
rooting for them, and to maybetap into or borrow some of that
energy for themselves and maybenot make it so much about
themselves too, but more likethey are being a conduit or they
are being a vehicle to sharesomething that could be
impactful to one or two peoplein the audience.
And if that's all that isalready, you've done something
(21:09):
amazing.
You've changed someone'strajectory, someone's
perspective, someone's day, andthat as itself, I think, is
significant.
So maybe we need to be a lotkinder to ourselves yes, yes, we
do in general?
Yes, so a while ago youmentioned being in your zone of
(21:30):
excellence and being in yourzone of genius.
Talk to us about why thatmatters and what's the
difference between the two.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Well, I got the phrases from Gay Hendricks when
I read his book the Big Leap,and then I read subsequent books
of his, including ConsciousLuck and oh, loss of pencil.
And I just finished your BigLeap Year.
It's a 365-day, essentiallyjournal that follows along the
(22:00):
Big Le leap and the conceptsthat are in all of these books
is working your zone ofexcellence versus your zone of
genius.
So these are the two highestlevels.
There's two other ones, I thinkit's competence and stuff that
you're just not capable at atall.
So for a while, multiple years,I was working in my zone of
(22:26):
excellence, which was helpingstudents get into college,
university, graduate school, aswell as business school, medical
school, by helping them withtheir admissions packages,
including their standardizedtests, including the SAT, act,
(22:47):
gmat, gre, toefl and someCalifornia specific tests.
So I was great at helpingpeople do math and English in a
way that is standardized by USinstitutions.
I was good at helping themcreate an overall package, so
(23:07):
not just focusing on the testbut on what they are putting in
the rest of the application,including their essays, branding
themselves as a specific typeof student that would fit into a
specific type of school for thereasons that they have
established.
By visiting the school andtalking to admissions officers
(23:28):
and I was great at that I helpedpeople get into places like
Brown and Auburn.
One person got a fullscholarship to Berkeley and took
a partial scholarship to UCLA,notre Dame, I think it was a
University of Chicago, loyolaMed School.
(23:49):
So different places around theUnited States and I think some
other countries too.
But what I've discovered is Ilove talking to leaders, so
people who have gone throughschool and are now running their
own businesses, and identifyingthat what they're doing could
(24:15):
be so much more than whatthey're doing at the moment, so
recognizing that there'ssomething inside of them that
they're not necessarilybelieving in or listening to.
And because I'm an introvert andbecause I like performing on
stage as I used to study dancein both high school and
(24:36):
university, I also did stand upcomedy in both Los Angeles and
in Toronto I like being someonewho's on stage and I like doing
that, and I know that otherpeople don't like doing that,
but they have to to put to movetheir business forward.
So it would be easy to stay inmy zone of excellence, but it
(25:00):
would not be satisfying and it'sa lot harder to work in my zone
of genius, creating, developingmy coaching business in a
different way than is alreadyestablished.
But I know that working in myzone of genius will help me
exercise my superpower insteadof hiding it under a bushel
(25:21):
basket, because there's a bigrisk.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I love that Not hiding your light under a bushel
basket.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yes, it's something that Jim Gaffigan said in one of
his shows.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I see, but the connection though with improv
and comedy, I would imagine thatthe whole idea of improv is you
don't know, right.
There is a lot of uncertaintyin that whole exercise.
How does that sit with being anintrovert?
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Well, I haven't done improv specifically, so I was in
standup.
The difference between them isimprov is usually a group
setting and standup is usuallysingular.
There's exceptions to each rule.
But in standup you have to goon stage and your goal is to
make people laugh.
And it could be hard if you'renot prepared, which is why I
(26:23):
like to bring the preparation tomy coaching and emphasize that
in these presentations thatyou're doing, especially if
you're a CEO in ed tech, noone's expecting you to be funny.
They're expecting you to have abackground in education.
So they're not used to peoplenecessarily aiming to be funny.
(26:46):
They're usually expecting avery heartfelt story about how
you helped uh, your producthelps someone learn in a
classroom.
It helped a teacher to gettheir life back.
Um, it helps parents to connectbetter with your children.
So being prepared is the thingthat I would say is the link
(27:12):
between stand up and deliveringa text speech as a leader of
your company, but also knowingyour audience.
So in standup, the best peoplewho are on the road.
I've never been on the road, butif you're an on the road comic,
you have to adjust to eachdifferent venue.
(27:36):
So if you're going to a venuein Stockholm.
That's different than a venuein London, which is different
than a venue in Sydney.
You have to know what's goingon.
In each of your locations, thecustoms say things that are
relevant to the person you'retalking to.
(27:58):
For instance, these are thesocks that were on the bed right
now, but they have kangaroos,can you see it?
Uh, so I got these.
These aren't even mine, but, uh, but they were, they were a
gift.
Uh and um.
You talk, you speak to thepeople that are in front of you
(28:21):
at the time.
So when you're an ed tech,you're not always speaking to
the same audience, not only interms of teachers versus
superintendents versus investors.
You're also in differentlocations.
So a big city, a little city,sometimes different languages.
(28:42):
So incorporating the culture ofthe location that you're in and
the people that you're with isapplicable to both going on the
road during standup or going onthe road doing a pitching tour,
trying to get people to buy intoyour product or service.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And I would say that that is a general rule as well,
that applies to any kind ofpresentation, any kind of
occasion.
When you are speaking withpeople, if you make that extra
effort to cater what you'resaying to what's personal to the
other person like you with yourgorgeous kangaroo socks it
(29:29):
makes you more memorable.
It shows that you've put inthat extra effort, you've done
that extra prep, you've noticed,you've paid attention, and that
, too, is a trait of theintrovert, isn't it?
The attention to detail, thepreparation, that wanting to be
that student that goes in therehaving already done some reading
and eager to put up your hand,not because you're trying to
(29:51):
dominate the conversation or hogattention or anything, but
because you have something tosay that is of value and you
want to share that.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yes, that is true, but also allow for the wind.
I forgot where it was.
No, that that's.
I do remember.
It's from it's the quote fromget, where Max says to somebody
you forgot to allow for the wind.
And sometimes you need to allowfor the wind not only if you're
outside, but allow for magic tohappen when you're not
(30:22):
expecting it.
Example I planned my top of myoutfit and ironed my shirt and
my cardigan because I thought itwould be on video.
The socks came a few minutesago, well before we started,
because my feet were cold andthey were on the bed available.
(30:43):
So there's stuff that you canprepare for and be like, yes,
I'm ready.
And then there's stuff thatjust happens and you can let it
happen and it can be great.
So definitely be prepared, butalso allow for the magic to
happen.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I love that because I think a lot of times the
introverts stress comes from notbeing able to foresee every
single thing, not being able toprepare a hundred percent, and
that makes us really upset,because we want to be that good
student.
We want to be that you know,solidly prepared person who
knows what they're doing andknows what they're going to say.
But you are right the wind, thesun, the, the hormone levels
(31:22):
anything could be something thatderails us.
But also allowing the magic,allowing for the unexpected,
allowing for the quirks, the,the miracles, the little
serendipities andsynchronicities of, you know,
kangaroo socks showing up at theright time.
And also, I love the words onthe top that you've got on today
(31:44):
oh, yes, it's, it's my, it's ashirt that I made for my
business.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It says uh, what is your story?
So I was planning to wear.
I worn this to a conferencebefore and I put I have an
orange one as well.
It has a different thing on it.
I forgot exactly what it says,but I made them because I was
excited about.
Oh, this is my shirt for mybusiness.
And then people will come up tome and ask and not that many
people have, but it's still nice.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Really, I would have thought you would have had a
line of people coming up and,you know, asking you what is
your story, or wanting to tellyou their story.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Well, people, there's a lot going on at different
conferences, so people getdistracted.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's true, usually it's the coffee Right.
I?
That's true, usually it's thecoffee Right.
I wanted to ask you you have aprogram called Speak Anyway, the
number one public speakingguide for introverted CEOs with
stage fright.
Tell us more about that.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Well, that is my book , my sixth book, and it is a
short book.
It's short and funny, like me,and it's both a narrative and a
non-narrative guide.
So there's a story in it abouta pair of EdTech CEOs.
(33:02):
The main character is Jordan.
She and her friend Casey are atan EdTech conference where
Casey has just spoken and Jordanis expecting her chief
marketing officer of her companyto come deliver the final
keynote of the last day of theconference.
But her chief marketingofficer's wife goes into labor
(33:25):
with twins and Jordan has todeliver the speech.
So the book follows Jordan'sthree parts of her, I guess,
acceptance that she has toactually deliver the speech, not
the person who is skilled andtrained to do so she has.
(33:47):
The first part of the book isher relaxing because she knows
she can't be all tense, andpreparing for what's going to
happen, relating, which is whereshe's actually delivering the
speech and being in the moment.
So, knowing that she has donethe preparation, and now it's
time for her to not only deliverthe words to the audience but
(34:10):
also take them in.
And in the middle of thedelivery she does forget what
she's saying and just tells themwhat's happening instead of
trying to figure out where herplace is.
She explains the situation thatthere are babies being
delivered, they're fine, and nowshe's the one that has to be on
(34:32):
stage in front of thousands ofpeople.
And then the last part of thebook is release.
So releasing all of the anxietythat she built up and noting
that she prepared beforehand tohave space to recover and she
gave people an action step to dothat does not involve
(34:54):
bombarding her when she stepsoff the stage, but contacting
someone else who can take all oftheir questions that she will
get back to as soon as theconference is over.
So it also has things for youto do.
Along with Jordan, create yourown 30-second speech, go over
(35:17):
the preparation that you wouldhave during your presentation
and planning how you cancapitalize on the presentation
after without wearing yourselfout.
So I like to think it's funny.
It gives you actual things todo and it shows you an example
of someone who is in the sameposition as you an introverted
(35:39):
CEO who didn't expect to give aspeech, but learns how valuable
it can be to be the face of yourown company.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I love that.
Your three hours of relaxing,relating, releasing yes it came
from a different world.
Came from a different world.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yes, did you watch a different world?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
No I didn't Okay.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Well, it was on in the early 90s and it was about
an HBCU called Hillman Collegein Virginia and Debbie Allen not
only produced the show, she wasin the show as one of the main
characters therapist and shetold her to relax.
Relate release.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Fantastic.
That's a very succinct way tohelp someone who is going
through stage fright, which isalso a perfect segue to the
theme of the Quiet Warriorpodcast, because this is about
quiet achievers growing intoquiet warriors, and, to me, a
quiet warrior can rise to theoccasion when needed.
So, you know, in a case likeyours, where someone is asked to
(36:45):
do a presentation at the lastminute and they don't feel 100%
prepared, they're a little bitshocked by the whole thing there
is a process that you can takethem through to help them
actually rise to the occasionand deliver, and I love that.
What is your perception of whata quiet warrior is?
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Well, I like to think of a duck paddling across a
pond like synchronized swimmers.
So like the duck.
You see the calmness of theduck on the top of the pond and
underneath their little paddlesor paddling, their feet are
going every which way in thewater, but it looks really nice
(37:27):
on the top.
So sometimes I will say, forpeople who are working in
corporate environments or justemployees for whatever reason,
there's always a sense of youneed to look busy so that people
think that you're doingsomething, whereas people who
(37:49):
often are doing the mostefficiently, effectively, with
the best result, are notnecessarily loud about it.
They are getting the work done,not necessarily talking about
the work that they are doing allthe time because they're
actually doing the work.
Or sometimes they are not doingthings because they know that
(38:14):
will get in the way of actualproductivity happening.
So, being a quiet warrior for me, even though I do like to tell
people about what I'm doing sothey know and they stay informed
, because some people like towatch my videos or read my posts
and be excited for me A lot ofthe work that I'm doing I can't
(38:37):
do in front of everybody,because a lot of what I'm doing
now is connecting with peoplethrough 30-minute video calls,
people that I am inspired by, sothose are not things that I'm
recording and showing otherpeople.
It's building my community andstrengthening my village and
encouraging other people to dothe same, because that's where
(39:00):
the success lies.
It's not about being theloudest and the best and showing
everybody what you're doing allthe time.
Sometimes it is doing the workand you could do it quietly, or
you can do it and you can do itconfidently.
You can report back yourfindings afterwards, like I do,
(39:25):
tell people that I do have theselovely coffee chats and explain
the benefits of doing them.
But talking about what you'redoing all the time and trying to
make sure everyone hears you isnot necessarily the way to get
(39:46):
to your goal and it's not theway that introverts necessarily
like to function.
So if it takes you doingsomething quietly to win a war
or to plant your garden or toconnect with your community,
then do it in the way that'sbest for you and you can be
(40:07):
quiet about it if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
So there is a lot of freedom in that, I think,
because the pressure of being onsocial media, of trying to put
yourself out there, as we areencouraged to do so, often takes
a toll too.
It takes time away and energyaway from the deep work that
introverts love.
We love to go into our littlecave and meditate and ponder and
(40:32):
think up all the wise thingsthat's coming out of our spirits
and how to curate it and shapeit in a way that's
understandable to somebody else,that can be shared and makes it
shareable.
All that takes energy and thatkind of deep work is best done
in solitude, where we, theminute you have to talk about it
(40:55):
, a different kind of energycomes in, isn't it?
Which I think takes away fromthat the joy of that kind of
creative process.
So I really hear you there andI agree with you that it's
important to know how to balancethat need, for this is my time
to do my deep work, my research,my study.
(41:16):
When I'm ready to come out ofmy cave and share it with people
, I will do so, but I don't needto feel compelled to be talking
all the time, to be out thereall the time, to be exposed all
the time to have to comment andreceive comments and have to
think about all those otherthings because they can be
distracting.
Those are attention stealers,aren't they?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
They can be.
And so there's also a need torecognize that everything is not
for everybody body.
So there are people who do verywell by by being on display 24,
seven or however many hours aday they want to, and that is,
(42:00):
that is, a business model or alifestyle that works for them
and get gives them what theywant.
And also that is is a a reasonthat I didn't continue stand-up
comedy.
Um, not directly because of thelook at me, look at me thing,
but it's um for me.
(42:21):
I loved being able to write thejokes and deliver them and then
write new jokes and deliverthose.
But for so many standup comicsit is about the feeling of
people laughing at you andappreciating you and that's
what's fueling them.
And for me it was thecreativity.
And I don't need the attentionand the acceptance of a crowd
(42:48):
every night, but some peoplefeed off that and that works for
them.
For other people, doing thedeep work can be with another
person or it can be with a group, but it doesn't necessarily
need to be documented and shown,or it can be documented and
shown later.
So there's nothing wrong withwanting to be seen, but
(43:15):
expecting everyone to have thesame desired lifestyle is not
helpful.
We should really embrace theconcept of different
personalities and differentbusiness models and different
ways to be in the world, withoutpeople feeling like extroverts
(43:37):
are the right way to be andintroverts are the wrong way to
be.
We can all be all thesepersonalities all the time.
We just have to accept eachother and celebrate what works
for each person.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
I think that's a beautiful way to wrap up our
conversation today, malena, andwhat is the best way for people
to get in touch with you andfind out more about your work?
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Well, the best way to get in touch with me is on
LinkedIn.
It's linkedincom slash in slashMalena.
Touch with me is on LinkedIn.
It's linkedincom slash in slashMilena.
And if you type in the firstpart of my first name in Google
or Bing or your preferred searchengine, you will find
everything about me.
It's M-A-H-L-E-N-A and there'sonly a couple of us with that
(44:25):
name, so I'm the one.
It looks like me, fun and funny.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Love and funny love that.
Yes, so we're gonna have allyour you know, your website and
social media links and, uh, allall the necessary ways for
people to get in touch with youin the show notes as well, and
thank you so much for ourconversation today.
Thank you for bringing joy andbrightness on a topic like stage
(44:55):
fright.
Is there one final thing youwant to share with our listeners
today about stage fright andovercoming it and their
relationship with speaking?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
with speaking.
The main thing I want to say,like Serena said before, is that
we should all be kind toourselves.
So if you have stage fright oryou have anxiety about speaking,
it's okay to acknowledge thatit's not something to berate
yourself for or feel embarrassedabout.
Just acknowledge that speakingis something that provide that
that gives you anxiety, but alsoit gives you an opportunity to
(45:40):
share your story and who you are, because more of us, especially
introverts, need to share ourstories in a way that makes
sense for us.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Thank you.
Thank you, Melaina, and thankyou for listening to this
episode of the Quiet Warriorpodcast.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, I encourage you to
review it, rate it on yourlistening platform and share
this episode with a friend whocould benefit from understanding
how we can speak and share ourstories and be ourselves
(46:12):
authentically in a world that isnoisy and chaotic and that
doesn't always make room for thequiet ones.
So thank you and I'll see youon the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Together, we can help more introverts thrive To
receive more uplifting contentlike this.
Connect with me on Instagram at.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Serena Lo Quiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.