In this episode, I’m thrilled to be joined by Salvatore Manzi, a leadership communications coach with over 20 years of experience helping analytical, introverted leaders amplify their impact. Salvatore shares his journey and his passion for empowering data-driven professionals to communicate their brilliant ideas with confidence, and to navigate high-stakes situations with poise and authenticity.
As an introvert himself, Salvatore has developed a unique approach to public speaking and leadership communication, focusing on frameworks, techniques, and strategies that help people move past fear and embrace their strengths. He also discusses how introverted and analytical leaders can overcome impostor syndrome, build effective teams, and present their work in ways that connect with a broader audience.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
How Data-Driven Leaders Can Be Promoted: Why doing the work is not enough—leaders must also learn how to speak about their accomplishments and engage with others in meaningful ways.
The Humble Brag Formula: A simple yet powerful way to share your achievements without feeling cringey, and how to frame your accomplishments to highlight the impact.
Overcoming the Spotlight Effect: Tips for introverts on stepping into the spotlight without shrinking, including how to control the spotlight and focus on your message rather than yourself.
Effective Communication Frameworks: The importance of understanding your audience and speaking to their cognitive style, whether it’s focusing on the “why,” “what,” “how,” or “what if.”
Building Emotional Intelligence: How practicing empathy and actively listening to others’ concerns can improve communication and strengthen relationships in high-stakes situations.
The Power of Integrity and Authenticity: Why staying true to yourself and your values is key to building trust and presence, and how to maintain that sense of authenticity in challenging conversations.
Salvatore’s insights on leadership communication and how to bridge the gap between introversion, data-driven work, and engaging conversation are invaluable for any quiet achiever or introverted leader looking to make a bigger impact.
Resources Mentioned:
Visit YouThenMePlaybook.com to learn more about Salvatore’s approach to leadership communication and check out his resources.
Connect with Salvatore Manzi on LinkedIn for more insights and opportunities to work with him.
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review The Quiet Warrior Podcast to help us reach more quiet achievers and introverted leaders around the world.
This episode was edited by Aura House Productions
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome, welcome to the QuietWarrior podcast.
Today's guest is SalvatoreManzi, a leadership
(00:44):
communications coach with over20 years of experience helping
technical, analytical andintroverted leaders amplify
their impact.
With emphasis on frameworks,principles and techniques,
salvatore empowers leaders toconnect authentically and
navigate high-stakes engagementswith confidence.
(01:04):
To connect authentically andnavigate high-stakes engagements
with confidence.
He's an introvert who learnedhow to harness the power of the
spotlight and has a passion forbuilding inclusive,
high-performing teamenvironments through effective
communication.
Welcome, salvatore, I'm sohappy to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thank you so much.
It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Salvatore, could you tell us more about your story
and your professional journey,and how you come to be doing
this work?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh, certainly I am a communications coach and my
journey has been that I kind ofgrew up in the public speaking
world.
My father spoke at conferencesand I followed in his footsteps.
I began speaking on stages incollege and I realized that when
I wanted to get more trainingon how to be a better speaker,
(01:52):
most of those trainings weredirected towards extroverts, not
introverts the how to polishyour charisma, how to organize
your extroverted tendencies noreal tools for introverts.
So I started doing my ownresearch and I went down the
path of studying psychology,neuroscience, things that would
(02:14):
help me understand how peopleprocess, connect, relate to a
conversation.
And then I came up with my ownframeworks that I use for any
different situation.
Studying different performingarts, I've found ways to
demonstrate presence and use mybody in a way that feels both
intentional and authentic.
And then I started working withstrategies, principles that
(02:37):
help me remember what it is thatI'm here for, to overcome the
imposter syndrome or the anxietyof public speaking.
And as I generated and workedwith these things, I began
working with other people whowere like, how do you get up on
those stages?
Like, how do you overcome thefear of public speaking?
A lot of people come to me with.
I got bypassed for a promotionbecause they said that I'm not a
(03:00):
good presenter or I don't knowhow to get my message to stick.
So I offer these frameworks,techniques and principles to
mostly analytical minded peopledata-driven leaders and helping
them to express their brilliantideas in ways that other people
can understand.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
What do you think it is about data-driven leaders
that makes it difficult for themto be seen as promotable?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
What I appreciate about this question is that it
really refines like what is itabout data-driven leaders as
opposed to?
And when I think about it,there's two things that come up.
Number one there's the ideathat my work should speak for
itself.
Right, I've done all this work,I've done the research, I've
proven, I built this system, Icreated this, I solved this
(03:52):
problem.
That should be enough to get mepromoted, but that's not enough
.
To actually get to another rank,to lead a team, to present the
next finding, to become thementor or the voice of a
department, to present the nextfinding, to become the mentor or
the voice of a department, needto be able to both do the work
and describe and speak about thework in a way that's engaging
and connecting with other people.
(04:12):
So that involves learning howto better talk about ourselves
and connect with others to ourmission.
The other part of it is thatthere's a tendency I find within
the analytical data-drivencommunity that we can fall into
a vibe where we just and theconversation is just going
(04:35):
really fast because we can skipall of the blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, we can get right tothe point, whereas the general
public would like more of theblah, blah blah and it's
learning how to become aneffective speaker for the entire
team, not just other analyticalpeople.
(04:55):
That's going to help a personget that promotion that they're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I think what you've identified is a conflict that I
find often with introverts aswell.
So I facilitate an introvertcommunity that helps build
social confidence and connection.
And one of the things thatmembers always say is they don't
like the small talk.
They just want to get to thedeep, juicy, life-enhancing type
(05:20):
of discussion.
So how do you then reconcilethat?
You know that you have to gothrough that in order to cater
to everyone else's preferencesso that you can be inclusive,
you can reach everyone, you'renot leaving anyone out and
you're engaging people'sinterests.
But that part of you doesn'tlike going into the shallow
(05:43):
stuff, the superficial stuff.
So how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I love this question a lot.
It speaks to me about how do Iconnect with different minds,
different types of mentalcognition, and I fall into.
There's a.
Bernice McCarthy has a systemcalled the format method of
learning, from Australia.
She's from Australia.
She came up with this in theeighties.
The research is relevant.
(06:08):
Even more relevant now it's howdesign people design their
learning programs.
And it's four questions that youask.
You've got the, the what, thehow and the what if.
So if I kind of think about,like I have a person in front of
me and they're one of thesefour types of thinkers, I need
to make sure that I hit all fourof those when I make a
(06:29):
connection to them.
Am I speaking to the why?
Am I demonstrating therelevance?
Am I speaking to the what Am Italking to?
What is the data behind it?
Am I speaking to the how?
Am I talking about how this canbe utilized and moved?
And am I speaking to the what if?
Am I talking about both therisks that could be faced in the
future and the potential thatwe haven't looked for?
(06:49):
So those four things aresomething that I'm thinking when
I go into these conversations.
Now, getting back to yourquestion how do I get through
the small talk to get to thegood stuff?
Is I figure out what kind ofperson I'm thinking I'm talking
with and I speak to theircognition style.
(07:09):
If they're why I want to speakto their why a little bit, and I
don't have to do the small talk, I can just get to the why of
importance.
If they're what I can get tothe what of importance, and that
way I can still.
I can dive past the small talkbut still make a connection with
that person individually.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It does make sense and it's interesting.
You mentioned Bernice McCarthy,while I have not met her
personally or read her workdirectly, but when I was
training as a coach, this wasthe framework we were actually
taught to lead all ourpresentations with.
When facilitating a room fullof different personalities and
backgrounds, you always startwith a why, because people need
(07:50):
to understand the intention ofthis session, and then you talk
about the what and demystify allthe jargon.
You talk about the how, becausethat's what people came for,
the solutions, and then you talkabout what if, or the next
steps.
So it makes perfect sense to meand I'm very grateful to you
for mentioning her name, becausenow we can credit the source
correctly.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Right, yes, I mean, it's the source of so much work
out there too.
So thank you, bernice.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Thank you, bernice, indeed.
So you mentioned earlier thatit's not just about doing the
work well, we also need to learnto talk about it.
Now, with social media thesedays, I've noticed a lot of
people do this humble brag thing, and it's sometimes recommended
as a good way to get our workout there.
(08:36):
But I know a lot of data-drivenand introverts and quiet
achievers who would cringe atthe thought of having the
spotlight on them in any way.
And yet they're doing greatwork, but they don't want to
talk about it.
So what do we do?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Right.
There's two problems to this.
I love this question again howdo we get our work out there in
a way that doesn't make us feelcringy for talking about it?
It's important because if I'mnot letting other people know
what I'm up to, they don't knowhow to work with me, they don't
know what to come to me for myarea of expertise, they don't
(09:12):
know what problems I can solvefor them.
So it's critical that I'm ableto talk about my work in a
bigger audience, and one way todo that is called the humble
brag.
I think the problem forintroverts or analytical people
especially is that the worknever seems completely finished,
or there's always that onelittle data piece that could
still be refined.
(09:32):
Right, so I'm not ready topresent until I get all of this.
So the key is giving yourselfpermission to give.
Where you are today, give me anupdate.
What have you completed?
What do you know?
One easy way to do this isusing the framework of this is
what we know, this is what wedon't know.
Just start with that.
(09:55):
This is what we know, this iswhat we don't know.
Give yourself permission to nothave all the answers or have
all the math done before youpresent your work and I don't
know if I answered your questionexactly, but it's the
importance of using that humblebrag, even in a social context,
to talk about what it is thatI'm doing so that other people
(10:16):
know how to connect and engagewith me.
The humble brag formula is avery easy formula.
It's I did X on Y project andachieved Z, so I took this
action on this project andachieved this outcome.
Here's the key where a lot ofpeople mess up, and that is that
(10:40):
they put the emphasis on thewrong place.
Right, you can say the samesentence many different ways,
emphasize a different word andit has a different meaning,
right?
So we're not saying I did thisthing, da, da, da da.
We're making sure that we'reneutral tone throughout.
We're sticking to data only, noopinions.
We're talking about real ROI.
We're not talking aboutreflections and judgments.
(11:03):
So we're focused on the results, not what we did.
We're not talking aboutreflections and judgments, so
we're focused on the results,not what we did.
We're talking about the effects.
I'll give you an example from myworld.
I helped two capital investorsstart an investment fund that
raised $220 million, which was ahundred million over their goal
.
I just presented as data.
(11:24):
But now you know I work withcapital investors.
I can help them refine theirpitch in a way that's going to
help them exceed their goal andlike oh okay.
Well, if I'm out there raisingmoney, I want to call Salvatore,
because he's helped thesepeople, right?
And now people know a way towork with me, right?
Would you like to throw out onefrom your world, not to put you
(11:48):
on the spot, but I did?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Introverts don't like being put on the spot, but
let's say someone is seeking apromotion.
How would they frame theiraccomplishments in a way that
gets the attention of the peoplewho are the decision makers?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Well, you remember, when I was working on X project
with so-and-so and we achievedthese results.
That's what we did in that caseis we did these things.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yes, and I like that because you mentioned two things
there the giving yourselfpermission and then sticking to
the data.
So data-driven people are verygood at sticking to the data.
They have heaps of evidence attheir fingertips, so it's about
focusing on that rather than Ithink the problem is don't give
you the 100%.
You know everything that I knowabout this that's accurate,
(13:05):
that's been verified.
Then I'm leaving somethingimportant out.
I'm doing you an injustice or adisservice, or I'm not being
completely truthful.
So there is an element ofintegrity.
I think that's at stake there.
So what you said about givingpermission, think there's a
mistake there.
So what you said about givingpermission, that's important
because you narrowed it down towhat is the information you have
right now or what is theprogress you've got up to as of
(13:30):
today.
So as of today means it'slimited.
It's limited to right now, upto this point, and we are
acknowledging that things canchange.
Tomorrow there'll be moreinformation coming in.
The outcome might be a littlebit different, but as of today,
let's freeze that and just sayup till now.
So up till now, you can becomfortable giving this picture
(13:52):
of where you're up to.
That's your progress, but itdoesn't mean that it can't be
better tomorrow.
Do you think that is a helpfulway?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
yes, it is, and hearing you say that back it
helps me reframe the humblebragformula, because I still want to
put in that what we know andwhat we don't know, like I might
make something up to say youknow, while coding the ethereum
add-on for the blockchainproject that we're working on,
what we've know is that we'veaccomplished this thing and what
(14:23):
we're not sure with yet is thisthing.
So it allows yourself toelevate the work that you have
accomplished, while stillacknowledging there's work left
to do, and maintain your senseof integrity with your own data,
as you said, giving ourselvespermission to give that what we
did get done or what we do knowso far.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes, so hopefully that helps somebody out there
who's listening to this episode.
You know feel more comfortableabout doing that humble brag and
maybe we need to come up withanother alternative description.
Maybe the brag part is whatgets some of the data-driven
people.
They don't like the concept ofbragging.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Bragging also feels like pulling attention on
ourselves to begin with.
Yes, we don't need that.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, and it goes against probably all the values
we've been raised with about notbeing that.
In Australia we call it beingthe tall poppy.
You don't want to stick out toomuch because somebody might
chop you down.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
True, it's true.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
So safety lies in being excellent, but not too
excellent.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
I have a lot of quotes going through my mind
right now, but I love the tallpoppy.
I'm going to stick with that.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So you mentioned also helping data-driven individuals
and introverts with high-stakessituations.
So when somebody walks intothat kind of a conversation, a
discussion, they are already inthat heightened mental state.
They're sort of bracingthemselves a little bit.
How do you go into that with amore resourceful state so that
(15:58):
you feel I can handle this?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, and I'd be curious to hear your suggestions
on this as well, because for me, getting to that resourceful
state, it's different parts.
First of all, it's preparing toget there in the first place,
knowing that I have full controlover my physicality.
Am I taking a full breath?
(16:21):
Am I using my full body?
Am I taking up space?
This posturing is a feedbackloop for the brain that helps us
to feel a sense ofresourcefulness, even in
situations where we feel adesire to close in and calm and
like shut down.
If we physically put ourselvesout there, it's going to tell
(16:45):
the brain hey, we've got this,we've got space, let's keep
going.
So there's a physicality aspectFor me, especially with my
analytical I call it hyperanalytical mind, I can
perseverate about a particularunknown to a detriment of my
resourcefulness.
So I want to get out ahead ofthat.
(17:08):
And in that high stakessituation, my first question to
myself is how do I know I'm safe?
How do I know that I'm going tobe okay?
How do I know that this isgoing to work out?
How do I know that this isgoing to, you know, work out?
And usually it just like it'sjust.
Honestly, it sounds ridiculous,but just reminding myself that
no one's going to die here, noone's going to be physically
(17:30):
seriously telling myself, noone's going to physically be
harmed in this exchange, right?
So the worst that's going tohappen is there's going to be
some whatever.
So like just finding some wayof ceasing the perseveration or
focusing it onto something alittle bit more positive, like
how do I know I'm going to beokay?
(17:51):
How do I know that I'm prepared?
How do I know that I know thistopic?
How do I know that I deserve tobe here?
Like asking myself thesequestions to get into that, so
physically, mental, the feedbackloops.
But getting into thatresourceful state also involves
setting a goal or intention,because that's never going to
(18:17):
work out well for anybody.
Or is the goal to deepen thisconnection?
If my goal is in deepening thisconnection, not proving that my
data is right and your data iswrong, what's going to happen is
it's going to change mytonality, it's going to change
the way I interact with thatperson and it's going to enable
(18:37):
me to feel more resourceful,because I'm looking for a
solution to help us bridge to asolution in a high-stakes
situation.
Those are some high-level ideasthat I have for maintaining a
sense of resourcefulness.
There's a whole slew that'smore contextually based as well.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I like what you said about the physiological state
and the physicality of it.
I noticed also that you have 20plus years of mindfulness
training in yoga and mindfuldesign, so I'm sure that's been
very helpful for you.
So, to answer your question,what I do?
I believe that the work isongoing.
I do that work before I evenstep into that room with a high
(19:21):
stakes conversation, and that issomething it's a daily practice
of centeredness, of grounding,of checking in with myself, of
asking you know, how aligned amI, the version of who I am now,
with what it is I'm trying toachieve?
How is this helpful?
And thinking bigger, like whatyou said, it's not about one of
(19:42):
us being right and trying toprove the other person being
wrong.
That's a very that's a zero-sumkind of thinking that's not
going to be helpful, because youcan be right and you can walk
out of that room feeling, really, you know, like you've done
something amazing, but thenyou've left the other person
feeling deflated, defeated, notimpressed with you.
I would much rather strive for asituation where we come to that
(20:04):
deeper understanding, thatdeeper connection, maybe
discover that there is somethingmore that we can do together.
There are some other ways tocollaborate or there is some
more information we need, andthis conversation needs to
continue.
This is not the end.
It was just the beginning ofthat collaboration and because
it's data-driven, new dataalways comes in and then you can
(20:26):
look at it differently, you canexplore.
There's so many things you cando with the raw data right.
But it's the personality, it'sthe integrity, it's the ethics
we are bringing to thatconsideration, the analysis of
that data.
I think that makes the personunique and interesting and
that's the value we're bringing,not just a solution.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, trust.
It establishes trust.
Demonstrating one's emotionalintelligence, ability to read
the room, ability to respondwhat's in the room enables trust
to build.
And for me, executive presence,or what I prefer to call
leadership presence, is aboutbuilding and creating that sense
(21:15):
of trust with whomever mylistener is at the time, and
that comes from what you'retalking about.
Having that intention of thisis an ongoing.
This is one step along the wayof an ongoing relationship and
our unified search for the truthin whatever we're doing.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yes, because at the heart I think of the data-driven
person and the scientist.
We are questing for truth, andthe truth is out there.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It is out there, so it's like an adventure.
I remember when I was in myfirst calculus class in high
school and I got to the end ofan answer and it was like
Christmas and New Year's and mybirthday all at one and I'm like
why does this bring me so muchjoy to come to an absolute
(22:04):
answer after a full page ofnotes?
But like, ah, it's an answer.
It's like I don't know, itfloats my boat.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
I'm sure it's floating a lot of boats for the
people that are listening rightnow who identify and resonate
exactly with what you're saying.
I cannot claim to have had thesame experiences in my science
and maths classes, and maybethat's why I went into law
instead, but you brought up avery interesting point as well
about beyond trust.
Before that, you said safety,and I think safety is at the
(22:34):
heart of it.
It's when I don't feel safethat I start getting
hypervigilant, I start assumingthings of people, I start making
certain judgments andoverthinking it, and then I lose
that connection with a personor with the conversation, with
the humanness of this otherperson I'm actually talking to
(22:56):
and I start going into my headyeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Oh yeah, and I relate to that.
I call myself hyper-analytical,hyper-vigilant.
Those are my top two.
Like I'm constantly hyper, I'mscanning the room for safety and
the idea of psychologicalsafety became very popular in
organizations about 15 years agoand, as it's still a common
topic in culture, when do I feelI can trust, I can be myself,
(23:25):
when I can bring my full self, Ican make a mistake and still be
seen as a credible person.
I can be seen as iterative, andthat requires trusting oneself
right.
And self-regulation.
Um I I use a lot of differentself-regulation techniques to
make sure that my hypervigilance, which serves me well
(23:48):
I'm not gonna like shame it, butit's also not over amplifying
and causing me to immediatelyfind fault with the other as a
as a defense mechanism, likesome form of self-regulation
whether it's 5-4-3-2-1 orwhatever to help me get centered
and feel safe, to be myself, isenabling.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes, I think when you feel safe, then going into that
kind of high-stakesconversation, you are not
bracing yourself as thoughyou're going to be attacked.
It's more like you're meetingthe other person as an equal, as
a peer, and I think the feelingis very different, the energy
is very different too yeah, if Icould add one more thing, one
(24:30):
of the things I like to ask myclients when they are preparing
for a high stakes meeting.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
The first question I'll ask them is what's the
question you don't want them toask you and it's sort of like
ugh, like let's get it out ofthe way.
Let's get that one out of theway.
Let's not pretend like they'renot going to ask it or that
hopefully you'll deflect them ordistract them from asking it.
Let's just prepare for ananswer to the thing you don't
(24:56):
want to talk about.
Get that out of the way firstand it calms the mind a great
deal with the rest of thepresentation and the answer
might be I don't have an answerfor that right now, but I would
like to, and we'll get back toit.
We'll find out.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I mean, what it is is different, but knowing what
that is getting out of the wayhelps that's like meeting the
lion and not pretending thelion's not there, but actually
seeing that it's there and allright, what am I going to do
about it?
So it's that acceptance ofreality, acceptance of
possibility, as opposed todenying and pretending.
(25:31):
And that's back to integrityagain.
So integrity in that sensebrings you a sense of safety
because you are prepared that itmay happen and you have some
responses prepared for it, andso you're not caught off guard
and you're not going to bemaking things up on the spot,
because I think data-drivenpeople like introverts don't
(25:54):
like winging it.
We like to be prepared.
So this is part of thatpreparation, is it?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
so it makes a lot of sense yes, and that's the thing
to prepare for there, and I lovethat you brought that up as
well.
There's.
There is the trust.
There's something about beingable to establish trust, being
able to be present.
That's what creates thatpresence in an exchange like
that.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
I have a question for you about the spotlight.
How does an introvert step into?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
the spotlight without shrinking Without shrinking.
Well, there's many differentthings I have to say about this,
and I'm thinking of differentcontexts.
I'm going to start in generaland try to get specific.
First of all, we all oftentimessuffer from what's called the
spotlight effect, where weassume that other people are
paying more attention to us thanthey actually are.
It's a natural physical,neurological condition that we
(26:53):
all have.
When we do something, we thinkmore people saw us do that than
actually saw us.
And when we're up speaking, wethink more people are paying
attention to us than they'reactually paying attention.
They're thinking about lunch,they're thinking about that last
email.
They're not paying attention.
Like 90% of them are kind ofhalf somewhere else, right?
So number one is to rememberthat when you take the spotlight
(27:17):
, you have to still get theirattention.
It's not just a matter of likenow the spotlight is on, you
have to engage them with thatspotlight.
Easiest way, as an introvert, toown the spotlight is to reflect
it onto somebody else.
Reflect it back onto somebodyelse in the room.
(27:37):
Ask them it onto somebody else.
Reflect it back onto somebodyelse in the room.
Ask them like the best, thebest, like I don't know if
you've ever had to give a toastat a wedding.
But the best tip for anintrovert, if you have to give a
toast at a wedding, is to saywell, let's toast the bride or
let's toast the couple.
Whatever what it does is, itimmediately takes the spotlight
off and back onto them.
Here's your chance to breatheEverybody.
(27:59):
Look at them.
That's great.
Okay, now they're coming backto me.
Here we go, right.
So, like, turn that spotlightand realize that you have
control of where that spotlightis going.
And since I have that control ofthe spotlight, I don't have to
keep it on me.
I could focus it on my message.
And that's where I go into thenot about me rhythm.
(28:20):
I have a mantra I do called notabout me.
I have to say it 10 timesbefore responding to somebody
who triggers me in some way orbefore I misinterpret something
it's not about me.
Not about me, not about me.
Not about me 10 times, right,because it's not about me.
They have a whole world that'sgoing on in their world and
they're saying something Ireceive or I reject, whatever,
(28:42):
but it's hit me.
But how I respond is areflection on me, not them.
So my ability to take thespotlight focus it not on me but
on my topic or on them, but onmy topic or on them, takes the
pressure off of me, allows me toown that spotlight, allows me
to be the spotlight guider andnot shrink or shrivel or be
(29:07):
afraid of the spotlight but toclaim it and use it for the
power that it actually offers.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I like that.
I've got a vision of somebodystanding in the spotlight but
also owning that space, becauseI think, with the intention with
which you stand in thespotlight, even when it happens
in an unplanned way for instance, when you are spontaneously
asked to say a few words andthat kind of situation can alarm
an introverted person becausewe don't like to wing it but
(29:40):
also taking those few moments tosay something to yourself that
calms you, helps you regulate,helps you center, helps you
remember it's not about you,helps you think about it, as
maybe it's an opportunity to getsome words of wisdom or
something encouraging out thereto the people that are actually
(30:01):
listening.
That's actually powerful becauseyou are redirecting but you're
also not shrinking.
You're accepting the challengeand I like that kind of thinking
, because this is called theQuiet Warrior podcast and we're
about helping quiet achieverselevate into quiet warriors, and
a warrior doesn't shrink fromthe opportunity or from the
(30:25):
situation that comes up.
They meet it, they meet it withcourage, they meet it with
compassion, they meet it in away accepting, without running
away from the possible dangerthat might be there.
(30:45):
So they are taking it, they aremeeting it, they are
recognizing and they are alsoreframing and seeing.
Okay, what can I do with thisspotlight while I have it for
all of these 5 seconds, 10seconds, 10 seconds.
Let me do some good with it.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Let me stand up.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Rise to the occasion instead of let me get out of
here as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, oh, nevermind.
You mentioned reframing, andthat is my go-to.
I have developed a whole seriesof contextual frameworks to use
too.
Like I have developed a wholeseries of contextual frameworks
to use, there's one impromptuwhen the spotlight comes to me
without any warning and I feelthat hiccup, I just reach for
(31:27):
that framework and I just followthat framework.
And because I have already aplan of how I'm going to
organize what I'm going to say,I don't have to think about the
whole thing of what I'm going tosay.
I just need to remember thefirst step and then get to the
next step and get to the nextstep, and so in those moments of
like intensity, I can still belike I just got to get one more
foot in front of the other.
(31:48):
First thing I need to do isthis Next thing I need to do is
this and then move through.
And when I work with people, Iwork with and coach them on how
to use the frameworks.
Once they have a framework, Icoach them on how to use the
delivery techniques and togetherit creates a presence around
(32:08):
what it is that they have toshare.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
That's fantastic.
I think frameworks are whatdata-driven people need to feel
safe.
It's something that cushionsyou and surrounds you and so you
don't feel like you're strandedout there in the middle of the
stage with a spotlight on youand nothing to hold on to.
So these are all things thatpeople can hold on to for that
(32:31):
temporary sense of safety, but Ithink ultimately, the safety
has to come from within.
So what the frameworks do isthey give you something, a
structure, which we love, butthen it also gives you time, I
think, to build up that innerstrength, inner conviction,
inner trust, knowing that,regardless of what else is
(32:52):
happening outside or what isbeing said to me right now, or
what I have to do in the nextfive minutes, or this high
stakes conversation I'm enteringinto, I will be okay.
I have built up all theseresources over the years.
I have access to thesecognitive resources as well.
I know these things.
I have worked on these otherthings with my colleagues and
(33:13):
this is the amount of you know.
This is all the wisdom or theknowledge that I'm about to
share.
What is the best way for me tocommunicate?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
and share that, so that is helpful to you.
That right there isresourcefulness Love it.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Thank you.
What is one final thing youwant our listeners to take away
from our conversation?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
You know, when I am working with a client, the first
principle I always teach is youthan me.
If I can make a point ofspeaking to you about what's
going on in your world, aboutyour concerns, about your hopes,
your wishes, your desires, yoursituation, before I get to me
and my agenda, my point, myanswer, I'm better equipped to
(33:58):
have a connection and aneffective conversation.
This is especially importantfor data-driven leaders, because
we don't always recognize thevalue of taking that extra step
to acknowledge, validate,express the empathy, whatever
(34:22):
for the listener's contributionor their presence.
Before we get to the point, weover-prioritize the answer.
I have the answer.
You have a question?
Here's the answer, and I don'thave to tell you how I got to
the answer.
I just have the answer.
But our listeners, unlessthey're like us, analytical,
unless they're already in ourvibe, they want a little bit of
(34:44):
warm up.
And if I can speak to you aboutyour thoughts, concerns, about
what you just shared, or iteratethat I understood what you just
told me.
Before I get to the answer, I'mable to start making those
connections and be seen assomebody who can communicate all
the great work that I've beendoing to the entire team and
lead the organization, you thenme.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
You, then me.
I like that.
I like that it speaks also tothe emotional intelligence you
highlighted earlier on as beingvery essential for communication
and for teamwork.
You highlighted earlier on asbeing very essential for
communication and for teamworkthe idea of also putting some
context to what we say, not justhitting someone with a bare
(35:29):
facts and expecting them to workout how this connects to that,
to that, because we arestorytellers and we love stories
and we resonate and identifybest when we receive a story,
read a story, hear a story andwe can understand this happened
and that happened and thathappened and this is the outcome
and this is the hero and thisis the villain and these are the
(35:51):
obstacles in between, and sothat makes sense for the, for
the human that we are speakingwith, and I think we need to
understand that.
The data, the facts, are there,but they also need the story,
the context, that narrative, andthat's where I think you also
come in with your expertise as astoryteller, helping
(36:13):
data-driven professionals andleaders to craft those authentic
narratives to support the factsso they're not just here this
is the answer to this specificquestion you asked but also
creating a story that makessense to the person that's
listening, so that they can seehow things join up yeah, exactly
(36:35):
so so what is the bestwayvatore for people to find you
and connect with you and workwith you?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
You can go to youthenmeplaybookcom
Youthenmeplaybookcom.
I'll take you to my website andI'm reachable on LinkedIn.
Salvatore Manzi as well.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much, Salvatore,for coming on the Quiet Warrior
podcast today.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Thank you so much, reena, take care.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Thank you.
So that was another episode ofthe Quiet Warrior podcast with
Salvatore Manzi today, and ifyou've enjoyed this episode, I
would appreciate you rating andreviewing the podcast so that it
gets in front of more quietachievers around the world.
See you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
(37:24):
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive To receive
more uplifting content like this, connect with me on Instagram
at Serena Lo Quiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
(37:45):
See you on the next episode.
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome, welcome to the QuietWarrior podcast.
Today's guest is SalvatoreManzi, a leadership
(00:44):
communications coach with over20 years of experience helping
technical, analytical andintroverted leaders amplify
their impact.
With emphasis on frameworks,principles and techniques,
salvatore empowers leaders toconnect authentically and
navigate high-stakes engagementswith confidence.
(01:04):
To connect authentically andnavigate high-stakes engagements
with confidence.
He's an introvert who learnedhow to harness the power of the
spotlight and has a passion forbuilding inclusive,
high-performing teamenvironments through effective
communication.
Welcome, salvatore, I'm sohappy to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thank you so much.
It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Salvatore, could you tell us more about your story
and your professional journey,and how you come to be doing
this work?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh, certainly I am a communications coach and my
journey has been that I kind ofgrew up in the public speaking
world.
My father spoke at conferencesand I followed in his footsteps.
I began speaking on stages incollege and I realized that when
I wanted to get more trainingon how to be a better speaker,
(01:52):
most of those trainings weredirected towards extroverts, not
introverts the how to polishyour charisma, how to organize
your extroverted tendencies noreal tools for introverts.
So I started doing my ownresearch and I went down the
path of studying psychology,neuroscience, things that would
(02:14):
help me understand how peopleprocess, connect, relate to a
conversation.
And then I came up with my ownframeworks that I use for any
different situation.
Studying different performingarts, I've found ways to
demonstrate presence and use mybody in a way that feels both
intentional and authentic.
And then I started working withstrategies, principles that
(02:37):
help me remember what it is thatI'm here for, to overcome the
imposter syndrome or the anxietyof public speaking.
And as I generated and workedwith these things, I began
working with other people whowere like, how do you get up on
those stages?
Like, how do you overcome thefear of public speaking?
A lot of people come to me with.
I got bypassed for a promotionbecause they said that I'm not a
(03:00):
good presenter or I don't knowhow to get my message to stick.
So I offer these frameworks,techniques and principles to
mostly analytical minded peopledata-driven leaders and helping
them to express their brilliantideas in ways that other people
can understand.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
What do you think it is about data-driven leaders
that makes it difficult for themto be seen as promotable?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
What I appreciate about this question is that it
really refines like what is itabout data-driven leaders as
opposed to?
And when I think about it,there's two things that come up.
Number one there's the ideathat my work should speak for
itself.
Right, I've done all this work,I've done the research, I've
proven, I built this system, Icreated this, I solved this
(03:52):
problem.
That should be enough to get mepromoted, but that's not enough
.
To actually get to another rank,to lead a team, to present the
next finding, to become thementor or the voice of a
department, to present the nextfinding, to become the mentor or
the voice of a department, needto be able to both do the work
and describe and speak about thework in a way that's engaging
and connecting with other people.
(04:12):
So that involves learning howto better talk about ourselves
and connect with others to ourmission.
The other part of it is thatthere's a tendency I find within
the analytical data-drivencommunity that we can fall into
a vibe where we just and theconversation is just going
(04:35):
really fast because we can skipall of the blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, we can get right tothe point, whereas the general
public would like more of theblah, blah blah and it's
learning how to become aneffective speaker for the entire
team, not just other analyticalpeople.
(04:55):
That's going to help a personget that promotion that they're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I think what you've identified is a conflict that I
find often with introverts aswell.
So I facilitate an introvertcommunity that helps build
social confidence and connection.
And one of the things thatmembers always say is they don't
like the small talk.
They just want to get to thedeep, juicy, life-enhancing type
(05:20):
of discussion.
So how do you then reconcilethat?
You know that you have to gothrough that in order to cater
to everyone else's preferencesso that you can be inclusive,
you can reach everyone, you'renot leaving anyone out and
you're engaging people'sinterests.
But that part of you doesn'tlike going into the shallow
(05:43):
stuff, the superficial stuff.
So how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I love this question a lot.
It speaks to me about how do Iconnect with different minds,
different types of mentalcognition, and I fall into.
There's a.
Bernice McCarthy has a systemcalled the format method of
learning, from Australia.
She's from Australia.
She came up with this in theeighties.
The research is relevant.
(06:08):
Even more relevant now it's howdesign people design their
learning programs.
And it's four questions that youask.
You've got the, the what, thehow and the what if.
So if I kind of think about,like I have a person in front of
me and they're one of thesefour types of thinkers, I need
to make sure that I hit all fourof those when I make a
(06:29):
connection to them.
Am I speaking to the why?
Am I demonstrating therelevance?
Am I speaking to the what Am Italking to?
What is the data behind it?
Am I speaking to the how?
Am I talking about how this canbe utilized and moved?
And am I speaking to the what if?
Am I talking about both therisks that could be faced in the
future and the potential thatwe haven't looked for?
(06:49):
So those four things aresomething that I'm thinking when
I go into these conversations.
Now, getting back to yourquestion how do I get through
the small talk to get to thegood stuff?
Is I figure out what kind ofperson I'm thinking I'm talking
with and I speak to theircognition style.
(07:09):
If they're why I want to speakto their why a little bit, and I
don't have to do the small talk, I can just get to the why of
importance.
If they're what I can get tothe what of importance, and that
way I can still.
I can dive past the small talkbut still make a connection with
that person individually.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It does make sense and it's interesting.
You mentioned Bernice McCarthy,while I have not met her
personally or read her workdirectly, but when I was
training as a coach, this wasthe framework we were actually
taught to lead all ourpresentations with.
When facilitating a room fullof different personalities and
backgrounds, you always startwith a why, because people need
(07:50):
to understand the intention ofthis session, and then you talk
about the what and demystify allthe jargon.
You talk about the how, becausethat's what people came for,
the solutions, and then you talkabout what if, or the next
steps.
So it makes perfect sense to meand I'm very grateful to you
for mentioning her name, becausenow we can credit the source
correctly.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Right, yes, I mean, it's the source of so much work
out there too.
So thank you, bernice.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Thank you, bernice, indeed.
So you mentioned earlier thatit's not just about doing the
work well, we also need to learnto talk about it.
Now, with social media thesedays, I've noticed a lot of
people do this humble brag thing, and it's sometimes recommended
as a good way to get our workout there.
(08:36):
But I know a lot of data-drivenand introverts and quiet
achievers who would cringe atthe thought of having the
spotlight on them in any way.
And yet they're doing greatwork, but they don't want to
talk about it.
So what do we do?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Right.
There's two problems to this.
I love this question again howdo we get our work out there in
a way that doesn't make us feelcringy for talking about it?
It's important because if I'mnot letting other people know
what I'm up to, they don't knowhow to work with me, they don't
know what to come to me for myarea of expertise, they don't
(09:12):
know what problems I can solvefor them.
So it's critical that I'm ableto talk about my work in a
bigger audience, and one way todo that is called the humble
brag.
I think the problem forintroverts or analytical people
especially is that the worknever seems completely finished,
or there's always that onelittle data piece that could
still be refined.
(09:32):
Right, so I'm not ready topresent until I get all of this.
So the key is giving yourselfpermission to give.
Where you are today, give me anupdate.
What have you completed?
What do you know?
One easy way to do this isusing the framework of this is
what we know, this is what wedon't know.
Just start with that.
(09:55):
This is what we know, this iswhat we don't know.
Give yourself permission to nothave all the answers or have
all the math done before youpresent your work and I don't
know if I answered your questionexactly, but it's the
importance of using that humblebrag, even in a social context,
to talk about what it is thatI'm doing so that other people
(10:16):
know how to connect and engagewith me.
The humble brag formula is avery easy formula.
It's I did X on Y project andachieved Z, so I took this
action on this project andachieved this outcome.
Here's the key where a lot ofpeople mess up, and that is that
(10:40):
they put the emphasis on thewrong place.
Right, you can say the samesentence many different ways,
emphasize a different word andit has a different meaning,
right?
So we're not saying I did thisthing, da, da, da da.
We're making sure that we'reneutral tone throughout.
We're sticking to data only, noopinions.
We're talking about real ROI.
We're not talking aboutreflections and judgments.
(11:03):
So we're focused on the results, not what we did.
We're not talking aboutreflections and judgments, so
we're focused on the results,not what we did.
We're talking about the effects.
I'll give you an example from myworld.
I helped two capital investorsstart an investment fund that
raised $220 million, which was ahundred million over their goal
.
I just presented as data.
(11:24):
But now you know I work withcapital investors.
I can help them refine theirpitch in a way that's going to
help them exceed their goal andlike oh okay.
Well, if I'm out there raisingmoney, I want to call Salvatore,
because he's helped thesepeople, right?
And now people know a way towork with me, right?
Would you like to throw out onefrom your world, not to put you
(11:48):
on the spot, but I did?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Introverts don't like being put on the spot, but
let's say someone is seeking apromotion.
How would they frame theiraccomplishments in a way that
gets the attention of the peoplewho are the decision makers?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Well, you remember, when I was working on X project
with so-and-so and we achievedthese results.
That's what we did in that caseis we did these things.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yes, and I like that because you mentioned two things
there the giving yourselfpermission and then sticking to
the data.
So data-driven people are verygood at sticking to the data.
They have heaps of evidence attheir fingertips, so it's about
focusing on that rather than Ithink the problem is don't give
you the 100%.
You know everything that I knowabout this that's accurate,
(13:05):
that's been verified.
Then I'm leaving somethingimportant out.
I'm doing you an injustice or adisservice, or I'm not being
completely truthful.
So there is an element ofintegrity.
I think that's at stake there.
So what you said about givingpermission, think there's a
mistake there.
So what you said about givingpermission, that's important
because you narrowed it down towhat is the information you have
right now or what is theprogress you've got up to as of
(13:30):
today.
So as of today means it'slimited.
It's limited to right now, upto this point, and we are
acknowledging that things canchange.
Tomorrow there'll be moreinformation coming in.
The outcome might be a littlebit different, but as of today,
let's freeze that and just sayup till now.
So up till now, you can becomfortable giving this picture
(13:52):
of where you're up to.
That's your progress, but itdoesn't mean that it can't be
better tomorrow.
Do you think that is a helpfulway?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
yes, it is, and hearing you say that back it
helps me reframe the humblebragformula, because I still want to
put in that what we know andwhat we don't know, like I might
make something up to say youknow, while coding the ethereum
add-on for the blockchainproject that we're working on,
what we've know is that we'veaccomplished this thing and what
(14:23):
we're not sure with yet is thisthing.
So it allows yourself toelevate the work that you have
accomplished, while stillacknowledging there's work left
to do, and maintain your senseof integrity with your own data,
as you said, giving ourselvespermission to give that what we
did get done or what we do knowso far.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes, so hopefully that helps somebody out there
who's listening to this episode.
You know feel more comfortableabout doing that humble brag and
maybe we need to come up withanother alternative description.
Maybe the brag part is whatgets some of the data-driven
people.
They don't like the concept ofbragging.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Bragging also feels like pulling attention on
ourselves to begin with.
Yes, we don't need that.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, and it goes against probably all the values
we've been raised with about notbeing that.
In Australia we call it beingthe tall poppy.
You don't want to stick out toomuch because somebody might
chop you down.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
True, it's true.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
So safety lies in being excellent, but not too
excellent.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
I have a lot of quotes going through my mind
right now, but I love the tallpoppy.
I'm going to stick with that.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So you mentioned also helping data-driven individuals
and introverts with high-stakessituations.
So when somebody walks intothat kind of a conversation, a
discussion, they are already inthat heightened mental state.
They're sort of bracingthemselves a little bit.
How do you go into that with amore resourceful state so that
(15:58):
you feel I can handle this?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, and I'd be curious to hear your suggestions
on this as well, because for me, getting to that resourceful
state, it's different parts.
First of all, it's preparing toget there in the first place,
knowing that I have full controlover my physicality.
Am I taking a full breath?
(16:21):
Am I using my full body?
Am I taking up space?
This posturing is a feedbackloop for the brain that helps us
to feel a sense ofresourcefulness, even in
situations where we feel adesire to close in and calm and
like shut down.
If we physically put ourselvesout there, it's going to tell
(16:45):
the brain hey, we've got this,we've got space, let's keep
going.
So there's a physicality aspectFor me, especially with my
analytical I call it hyperanalytical mind, I can
perseverate about a particularunknown to a detriment of my
resourcefulness.
So I want to get out ahead ofthat.
(17:08):
And in that high stakessituation, my first question to
myself is how do I know I'm safe?
How do I know that I'm going tobe okay?
How do I know that this isgoing to work out?
How do I know that this isgoing to, you know, work out?
And usually it just like it'sjust.
Honestly, it sounds ridiculous,but just reminding myself that
no one's going to die here, noone's going to be physically
(17:30):
seriously telling myself, noone's going to physically be
harmed in this exchange, right?
So the worst that's going tohappen is there's going to be
some whatever.
So like just finding some wayof ceasing the perseveration or
focusing it onto something alittle bit more positive, like
how do I know I'm going to beokay?
(17:51):
How do I know that I'm prepared?
How do I know that I know thistopic?
How do I know that I deserve tobe here?
Like asking myself thesequestions to get into that, so
physically, mental, the feedbackloops.
But getting into thatresourceful state also involves
setting a goal or intention,because that's never going to
(18:17):
work out well for anybody.
Or is the goal to deepen thisconnection?
If my goal is in deepening thisconnection, not proving that my
data is right and your data iswrong, what's going to happen is
it's going to change mytonality, it's going to change
the way I interact with thatperson and it's going to enable
(18:37):
me to feel more resourceful,because I'm looking for a
solution to help us bridge to asolution in a high-stakes
situation.
Those are some high-level ideasthat I have for maintaining a
sense of resourcefulness.
There's a whole slew that'smore contextually based as well.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
I like what you said about the physiological state
and the physicality of it.
I noticed also that you have 20plus years of mindfulness
training in yoga and mindfuldesign, so I'm sure that's been
very helpful for you.
So, to answer your question,what I do?
I believe that the work isongoing.
I do that work before I evenstep into that room with a high
(19:21):
stakes conversation, and that issomething it's a daily practice
of centeredness, of grounding,of checking in with myself, of
asking you know, how aligned amI, the version of who I am now,
with what it is I'm trying toachieve?
How is this helpful?
And thinking bigger, like whatyou said, it's not about one of
(19:42):
us being right and trying toprove the other person being
wrong.
That's a very that's a zero-sumkind of thinking that's not
going to be helpful, because youcan be right and you can walk
out of that room feeling, really, you know, like you've done
something amazing, but thenyou've left the other person
feeling deflated, defeated, notimpressed with you.
I would much rather strive for asituation where we come to that
(20:04):
deeper understanding, thatdeeper connection, maybe
discover that there is somethingmore that we can do together.
There are some other ways tocollaborate or there is some
more information we need, andthis conversation needs to
continue.
This is not the end.
It was just the beginning ofthat collaboration and because
it's data-driven, new dataalways comes in and then you can
(20:26):
look at it differently, you canexplore.
There's so many things you cando with the raw data right.
But it's the personality, it'sthe integrity, it's the ethics
we are bringing to thatconsideration, the analysis of
that data.
I think that makes the personunique and interesting and
that's the value we're bringing,not just a solution.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, trust.
It establishes trust.
Demonstrating one's emotionalintelligence, ability to read
the room, ability to respondwhat's in the room enables trust
to build.
And for me, executive presence,or what I prefer to call
leadership presence, is aboutbuilding and creating that sense
(21:15):
of trust with whomever mylistener is at the time, and
that comes from what you'retalking about.
Having that intention of thisis an ongoing.
This is one step along the wayof an ongoing relationship and
our unified search for the truthin whatever we're doing.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yes, because at the heart I think of the data-driven
person and the scientist.
We are questing for truth, andthe truth is out there.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It is out there, so it's like an adventure.
I remember when I was in myfirst calculus class in high
school and I got to the end ofan answer and it was like
Christmas and New Year's and mybirthday all at one and I'm like
why does this bring me so muchjoy to come to an absolute
(22:04):
answer after a full page ofnotes?
But like, ah, it's an answer.
It's like I don't know, itfloats my boat.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
I'm sure it's floating a lot of boats for the
people that are listening rightnow who identify and resonate
exactly with what you're saying.
I cannot claim to have had thesame experiences in my science
and maths classes, and maybethat's why I went into law
instead, but you brought up avery interesting point as well
about beyond trust.
Before that, you said safety,and I think safety is at the
(22:34):
heart of it.
It's when I don't feel safethat I start getting
hypervigilant, I start assumingthings of people, I start making
certain judgments andoverthinking it, and then I lose
that connection with a personor with the conversation, with
the humanness of this otherperson I'm actually talking to
(22:56):
and I start going into my headyeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Oh yeah, and I relate to that.
I call myself hyper-analytical,hyper-vigilant.
Those are my top two.
Like I'm constantly hyper, I'mscanning the room for safety and
the idea of psychologicalsafety became very popular in
organizations about 15 years agoand, as it's still a common
topic in culture, when do I feelI can trust, I can be myself,
(23:25):
when I can bring my full self, Ican make a mistake and still be
seen as a credible person.
I can be seen as iterative, andthat requires trusting oneself
right.
And self-regulation.
Um I I use a lot of differentself-regulation techniques to
make sure that my hypervigilance, which serves me well
(23:48):
I'm not gonna like shame it, butit's also not over amplifying
and causing me to immediatelyfind fault with the other as a
as a defense mechanism, likesome form of self-regulation
whether it's 5-4-3-2-1 orwhatever to help me get centered
and feel safe, to be myself, isenabling.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes, I think when you feel safe, then going into that
kind of high-stakesconversation, you are not
bracing yourself as thoughyou're going to be attacked.
It's more like you're meetingthe other person as an equal, as
a peer, and I think the feelingis very different, the energy
is very different too yeah, if Icould add one more thing, one
(24:30):
of the things I like to ask myclients when they are preparing
for a high stakes meeting.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
The first question I'll ask them is what's the
question you don't want them toask you and it's sort of like
ugh, like let's get it out ofthe way.
Let's get that one out of theway.
Let's not pretend like they'renot going to ask it or that
hopefully you'll deflect them ordistract them from asking it.
Let's just prepare for ananswer to the thing you don't
(24:56):
want to talk about.
Get that out of the way firstand it calms the mind a great
deal with the rest of thepresentation and the answer
might be I don't have an answerfor that right now, but I would
like to, and we'll get back toit.
We'll find out.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I mean, what it is is different, but knowing what
that is getting out of the wayhelps that's like meeting the
lion and not pretending thelion's not there, but actually
seeing that it's there and allright, what am I going to do
about it?
So it's that acceptance ofreality, acceptance of
possibility, as opposed todenying and pretending.
(25:31):
And that's back to integrityagain.
So integrity in that sensebrings you a sense of safety
because you are prepared that itmay happen and you have some
responses prepared for it, andso you're not caught off guard
and you're not going to bemaking things up on the spot,
because I think data-drivenpeople like introverts don't
(25:54):
like winging it.
We like to be prepared.
So this is part of thatpreparation, is it?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
so it makes a lot of sense yes, and that's the thing
to prepare for there, and I lovethat you brought that up as
well.
There's.
There is the trust.
There's something about beingable to establish trust, being
able to be present.
That's what creates thatpresence in an exchange like
that.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
I have a question for you about the spotlight.
How does an introvert step into?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
the spotlight without shrinking Without shrinking.
Well, there's many differentthings I have to say about this,
and I'm thinking of differentcontexts.
I'm going to start in generaland try to get specific.
First of all, we all oftentimessuffer from what's called the
spotlight effect, where weassume that other people are
paying more attention to us thanthey actually are.
It's a natural physical,neurological condition that we
(26:53):
all have.
When we do something, we thinkmore people saw us do that than
actually saw us.
And when we're up speaking, wethink more people are paying
attention to us than they'reactually paying attention.
They're thinking about lunch,they're thinking about that last
email.
They're not paying attention.
Like 90% of them are kind ofhalf somewhere else, right?
So number one is to rememberthat when you take the spotlight
(27:17):
, you have to still get theirattention.
It's not just a matter of likenow the spotlight is on, you
have to engage them with thatspotlight.
Easiest way, as an introvert, toown the spotlight is to reflect
it onto somebody else.
Reflect it back onto somebodyelse in the room.
(27:37):
Ask them it onto somebody else.
Reflect it back onto somebodyelse in the room.
Ask them like the best, thebest, like I don't know if
you've ever had to give a toastat a wedding.
But the best tip for anintrovert, if you have to give a
toast at a wedding, is to saywell, let's toast the bride or
let's toast the couple.
Whatever what it does is, itimmediately takes the spotlight
off and back onto them.
Here's your chance to breatheEverybody.
(27:59):
Look at them.
That's great.
Okay, now they're coming backto me.
Here we go, right.
So, like, turn that spotlightand realize that you have
control of where that spotlightis going.
And since I have that control ofthe spotlight, I don't have to
keep it on me.
I could focus it on my message.
And that's where I go into thenot about me rhythm.
(28:20):
I have a mantra I do called notabout me.
I have to say it 10 timesbefore responding to somebody
who triggers me in some way orbefore I misinterpret something
it's not about me.
Not about me, not about me.
Not about me 10 times, right,because it's not about me.
They have a whole world that'sgoing on in their world and
they're saying something Ireceive or I reject, whatever,
(28:42):
but it's hit me.
But how I respond is areflection on me, not them.
So my ability to take thespotlight focus it not on me but
on my topic or on them, but onmy topic or on them, takes the
pressure off of me, allows me toown that spotlight, allows me
to be the spotlight guider andnot shrink or shrivel or be
(29:07):
afraid of the spotlight but toclaim it and use it for the
power that it actually offers.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I like that.
I've got a vision of somebodystanding in the spotlight but
also owning that space, becauseI think, with the intention with
which you stand in thespotlight, even when it happens
in an unplanned way for instance, when you are spontaneously
asked to say a few words andthat kind of situation can alarm
an introverted person becausewe don't like to wing it but
(29:40):
also taking those few moments tosay something to yourself that
calms you, helps you regulate,helps you center, helps you
remember it's not about you,helps you think about it, as
maybe it's an opportunity to getsome words of wisdom or
something encouraging out thereto the people that are actually
(30:01):
listening.
That's actually powerful becauseyou are redirecting but you're
also not shrinking.
You're accepting the challengeand I like that kind of thinking
, because this is called theQuiet Warrior podcast and we're
about helping quiet achieverselevate into quiet warriors, and
a warrior doesn't shrink fromthe opportunity or from the
(30:25):
situation that comes up.
They meet it, they meet it withcourage, they meet it with
compassion, they meet it in away accepting, without running
away from the possible dangerthat might be there.
(30:45):
So they are taking it, they aremeeting it, they are
recognizing and they are alsoreframing and seeing.
Okay, what can I do with thisspotlight while I have it for
all of these 5 seconds, 10seconds, 10 seconds.
Let me do some good with it.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Let me stand up.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Rise to the occasion instead of let me get out of
here as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, oh, nevermind.
You mentioned reframing, andthat is my go-to.
I have developed a whole seriesof contextual frameworks to use
too.
Like I have developed a wholeseries of contextual frameworks
to use, there's one impromptuwhen the spotlight comes to me
without any warning and I feelthat hiccup, I just reach for
(31:27):
that framework and I just followthat framework.
And because I have already aplan of how I'm going to
organize what I'm going to say,I don't have to think about the
whole thing of what I'm going tosay.
I just need to remember thefirst step and then get to the
next step and get to the nextstep, and so in those moments of
like intensity, I can still belike I just got to get one more
foot in front of the other.
(31:48):
First thing I need to do isthis Next thing I need to do is
this and then move through.
And when I work with people, Iwork with and coach them on how
to use the frameworks.
Once they have a framework, Icoach them on how to use the
delivery techniques and togetherit creates a presence around
(32:08):
what it is that they have toshare.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
That's fantastic.
I think frameworks are whatdata-driven people need to feel
safe.
It's something that cushionsyou and surrounds you and so you
don't feel like you're strandedout there in the middle of the
stage with a spotlight on youand nothing to hold on to.
So these are all things thatpeople can hold on to for that
(32:31):
temporary sense of safety, but Ithink ultimately, the safety
has to come from within.
So what the frameworks do isthey give you something, a
structure, which we love, butthen it also gives you time, I
think, to build up that innerstrength, inner conviction,
inner trust, knowing that,regardless of what else is
(32:52):
happening outside or what isbeing said to me right now, or
what I have to do in the nextfive minutes, or this high
stakes conversation I'm enteringinto, I will be okay.
I have built up all theseresources over the years.
I have access to thesecognitive resources as well.
I know these things.
I have worked on these otherthings with my colleagues and
(33:13):
this is the amount of you know.
This is all the wisdom or theknowledge that I'm about to
share.
What is the best way for me tocommunicate?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
and share that, so that is helpful to you.
That right there isresourcefulness Love it.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Thank you.
What is one final thing youwant our listeners to take away
from our conversation?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
You know, when I am working with a client, the first
principle I always teach is youthan me.
If I can make a point ofspeaking to you about what's
going on in your world, aboutyour concerns, about your hopes,
your wishes, your desires, yoursituation, before I get to me
and my agenda, my point, myanswer, I'm better equipped to
(33:58):
have a connection and aneffective conversation.
This is especially importantfor data-driven leaders, because
we don't always recognize thevalue of taking that extra step
to acknowledge, validate,express the empathy, whatever
(34:22):
for the listener's contributionor their presence.
Before we get to the point, weover-prioritize the answer.
I have the answer.
You have a question?
Here's the answer, and I don'thave to tell you how I got to
the answer.
I just have the answer.
But our listeners, unlessthey're like us, analytical,
unless they're already in ourvibe, they want a little bit of
(34:44):
warm up.
And if I can speak to you aboutyour thoughts, concerns, about
what you just shared, or iteratethat I understood what you just
told me.
Before I get to the answer, I'mable to start making those
connections and be seen assomebody who can communicate all
the great work that I've beendoing to the entire team and
lead the organization, you thenme.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
You, then me.
I like that.
I like that it speaks also tothe emotional intelligence you
highlighted earlier on as beingvery essential for communication
and for teamwork.
You highlighted earlier on asbeing very essential for
communication and for teamworkthe idea of also putting some
context to what we say, not justhitting someone with a bare
(35:29):
facts and expecting them to workout how this connects to that,
to that, because we arestorytellers and we love stories
and we resonate and identifybest when we receive a story,
read a story, hear a story andwe can understand this happened
and that happened and thathappened and this is the outcome
and this is the hero and thisis the villain and these are the
(35:51):
obstacles in between, and sothat makes sense for the, for
the human that we are speakingwith, and I think we need to
understand that.
The data, the facts, are there,but they also need the story,
the context, that narrative, andthat's where I think you also
come in with your expertise as astoryteller, helping
(36:13):
data-driven professionals andleaders to craft those authentic
narratives to support the factsso they're not just here this
is the answer to this specificquestion you asked but also
creating a story that makessense to the person that's
listening, so that they can seehow things join up yeah, exactly
(36:35):
so so what is the bestwayvatore for people to find you
and connect with you and workwith you?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
You can go to youthenmeplaybookcom
Youthenmeplaybookcom.
I'll take you to my website andI'm reachable on LinkedIn.
Salvatore Manzi as well.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much, Salvatore,for coming on the Quiet Warrior
podcast today.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Thank you so much, reena, take care.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Thank you.
So that was another episode ofthe Quiet Warrior podcast with
Salvatore Manzi today, and ifyou've enjoyed this episode, I
would appreciate you rating andreviewing the podcast so that it
gets in front of more quietachievers around the world.
See you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
(37:24):
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive To receive
more uplifting content like this, connect with me on Instagram
at Serena Lo Quiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
(37:45):
See you on the next episode.
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