June 1, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, we’re joined by Ella Zhang, an organisational development consultant and executive coach who shares how she has navigated multiple cultures and languages and embraced her bilingual identity to build confidence and communicate effectively.
Ella takes us through her story of migrating from China to Australia, overcoming challenges as a non-native English speaker, and how she transformed her accent from a barrier into a strength. This conversation offers powerful insights for bilingual, non-native English speakers and introverts who want to improve their communication skills, take responsibility for their personal growth, and use their unique cultural perspectives as an advantage.
Key Takeaways:
- Owning Your Bilingual Identity: How Ella embraced her accent as a unique superpower rather than something to hide, and how others can shift their mindset around language barriers.
- Self-Acceptance and Growth: The importance of accepting all parts of ourselves, including the parts we find uncomfortable, as a pathway to personal and professional growth.
- Feedback as a Tool for Growth: How asking for feedback, especially from those who are willing to give you constructive criticism, can accelerate your development and improve your communication skills.
- Self-Responsibility in Career Development: Why taking responsibility for your own growth is crucial, and how to use resources around you—books, mentors, and feedback—to continue evolving.
- Bicultural and Bilingual Advantage: Ella highlights how being bilingual and bicultural allows you to draw on the best from different cultural perspectives, giving you a unique advantage in communication and leadership.
Ella also shares insights from her upcoming book Upgrade, which explores the four internal operating systems that shape our personal and professional lives: mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical. This book is a guide to understanding how to keep these systems updated to maximize performance, especially for young professionals navigating cultural and language differences.
Resources Mentioned:
- Check out Ella Zhang’s book Upgrade
- Connect with Ella on LinkedIn to learn more about her work and leadership development strategies.
If you found this episode insightful, please rate and review The Quiet Warrior Podcast to help us reach more introverts and quiet achievers around the world.
This episode was edited by Aura House Productions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Serena Lo.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Welcome to the Quiet Warriorpodcast.
Today's guest is a passionatestrategic changemaker,
(00:44):
organizational developmentconsultant and executive coach
who is dedicated to facilitatingpersonal and professional
growth.
She blends her practicalexperience in Fortune 100
companies and startups with agenuine passion for leadership
development and culturaltransformation development and
(01:05):
cultural transformation and overthe years, she has supported
teams and individuals indiscovering their strengths and
navigating challenges through afocus on capability development
and strategic change.
Welcome, ella Zhang, to theQuiet Warrior podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you for having me, Serena.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Ella, tell us more about your journey of migration
and how did you learn to speakEnglish as well as you do?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Okay, I came here to do my master's degree in my
early 20s.
So I finished my bachelor'sdegree in China and I studied
law back then.
So my dream in my early stageis to be a lawyer, that I always
thought about my job or myfuture.
(01:53):
My vocation is about speakingup for the women who cannot
speak up for themselves.
So that is the seeds growingbigger in myself since high
school, growing bigger in myselfsince high school.
But the reality probably has adifferent plan for me.
So since I graduated fromuniversity and landed my legal
(02:18):
job, I quickly realized Iactually do not have the
personality to become the lawyerthat I wanted to be.
So come overseas to studyactually is one of the major
reasons for that is I need tofind another domain that I can
feel I can wholeheartedly investmyself.
So I came here to study finance.
The original plan is only useone year to finish my master's
(02:43):
degree and at least, if I finish, I can go back to China to
practice law in financialindustry.
And the reason I chose financeis because even I'm Chinese, I'm
Asian, but I'm terrible withmath.
So I thought that would take melonger to get bored, because
I'm not good at numbers.
(03:04):
That would take me longer toget bored because I'm not good
at numbers, but you have to say,really the universe has its own
plan.
So since I landed in Sydney, Ifeel like Sydney plays a spell
on me and I fall in love inthese places, and also because I
don't have any relatives inSydney, which means this is a
(03:27):
clean piece of land that I canmake decisions for myself and on
myself.
So I guess there's a part of mewho always have this desire for
freedom.
Now found a piece of land forfuel, my dream.
So, um, one job after another.
(03:49):
I stayed here for 25 years.
So by listening to me you mightnotice I do have asian accent.
That's because in china we onlystart to learn English in
probably junior high, probablywhen we were 12 or 13 years old.
So I do remember when I firstcame to Australia.
(04:13):
Having an accent has a bigbarrier to really make myself,
to see what the value, what theworth I can bring to the
organization, to the people Iinteract.
So when I'm saying this, I feelback then we were trained to be
(04:33):
perfect, we were trained to notto make mistakes.
So it feels like speakingperfect English without any
accent is one of the goals.
So for the first few years thathas been my struggle.
Even I.
For the first 10 years inAustralia, I stopped speaking
(04:56):
Chinese, reading Chinese,writing Chinese for the first 10
years, purely to make myselfimmersed in English.
But still, every single timewhen we project certain words
maybe because we speak anotherlanguage, so how we project
certain words is a little bitdifferent, comparing to the
(05:17):
locals.
So I remember I consulted acoach and my teacher in the
university how can I get rid ofmy accent?
And one of the teachers said whyyou need to get rid of that?
Because no one can speak as youdid.
So that's your personality.
Because when you speak peoplewill naturally ask you oh,
(05:39):
originally, where you come from.
Because you have a differentbackground, you have a different
culture, you carry differentsets of values and you have your
own style.
So make your accent to be yourstrengths.
It never needs to be yourweakness.
So, starting from that point, Istart to focus on what could be
(06:00):
the message that I share withthe world.
People come to me not because Ihave accent.
People come to me because wehave substance, when we have
conversations, so theconversation can add value to
people and when we can continueto add value to people through
the interactions, no one reallycares how you pronounce some
(06:23):
specific words.
Of course there are people.
They're going to pick up on you.
So when they pick up, you thinkokay, whatever the comments and
the feedback they provide toyou is useful, we take it, we
improve it, otherwise let it go,move on.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, I think those are yes those are amazing
communication insights, ella.
Thank you for sharing them,because I can imagine there will
be some listeners here who arenon-native English speakers who
also feel very sensitive abouttheir accent being different.
It makes them stand out, butnot for the right reasons, they
(07:05):
think.
But what you're saying and yourteacher is very wise too is
that your accent, in a sense, isyour superpower, as they like
to say at the ProfessionalMigrant Women Network, that I
don't think there's anybody whospeaks without an accent.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Exactly exactly.
It's a way couldn't stop make a, make a judgment in our mind.
We also think, oh, I lovebritish accents because that
sounds so noble, right, and wedon't like all the accents.
So we actually ourselves wecarry lots of bias and judgment
(07:41):
in ourselves.
So, on one hand, because wehave such bias and prejudice
inside of us, we judge aboutevery single person we encounter
quickly, based on their look,their language skill, their
accent, even judging about howthey dress themselves up.
(08:02):
So we make lots of judgment.
And also, at the same time,because we're judging so much,
there's something inside of usactually becomes extremely
sensitive.
So we're worried other peoplewere judging us as well.
So this is the game we play asa human, unconsciously.
(08:23):
So for me doing my work becausemy work involves me working with
a variety of people, and Iremember the first day when I
had my very first coachingsession with my clients the only
thing I noticed is my futus, myjudgment.
The flex shows up in myselfwhen I was in conversation with
(08:48):
my client.
At that time I thought, damn, Ican never be a very good coach
because I'm so judgmental.
I quickly make a judgment andsay, oh, this is a good, that is
bad.
This is not right.
So I quickly doing that.
But the beauty of working inthis industry is every single
conversation we had with peoplewe are healing some certain part
(09:10):
of ourselves.
So slowly we really start toaccept everyone as who they are,
but also, at the same time, weare accepting ourselves as who
we are.
The more acceptance we become,the less judgmental we become
and the less sensitive we are towhoever others, whatever kind
(09:32):
of comments others need to make.
I always share with my clientsthat if we're so damn easily to
be triggered by others' comments, be triggered by others'
comments regardless of others'intention.
But we get triggered, agitatedor get hurt about others' random
(09:54):
comments.
It really has nothing to dowith those people.
Actually, those people handover a very beautiful gift to us
because in that moment meanssomething inside of us requires
some work.
There's a trigger when we canbe triggered.
The only reason we can betriggered is because there's a
trigger inside of us.
So it's our job to go throughthose co-created experiences
(10:18):
with others, to work and processour triggers until we can no
longer be triggered by others.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I feel there is something deeply philosophical
in there.
That's also very true, becauseother people are a mirror of us,
isn't it?
And what they show to ussometimes are those parts of us
that we really don't want to see, or that we don't like, or that
we have rejected, or that wefeel there's something wrong
(10:49):
about me, something not goodenough.
So when somebody holds a mirrorup to that it's, it's not a
comfortable feeling we have tolook at ourselves and then we
have to decide.
If I don't like this part of me,what am I going to do about it?
Do I accept it?
Do I change it?
Do I ignore it?
Do I just let it be?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I remember early days when I was so passionate about
personal development andprofessional development even
though now this is my work,combine those two together but
in my early days to embark onthe journey of a personal
development and a professionaldevelopment.
Honestly, I feel there are manymoments that somehow we were
(11:36):
put in the position to see theugly self.
When we learn all the skillsand the theories to be a better
human being, when we know thetheory, somehow we have this
illusion as if we know how to bea better self.
We just immediately become thatbetter self.
So there are situations.
(11:59):
The universe has its own way ofwork.
There are situations when weinteract with others or when we
encounter certain situations wesuddenly notice damn, I'm not as
good as I thought I am.
So those moments at thebeginning can be very
disappointing.
But I do hope whoever mayexperience those moments just be
(12:25):
self-assured, because only whenwe see the ugly self, we have
the opportunity to face it, towork on it, then we can truly
become the better version ofself.
If we saw that and we feel verydisappointed and disgust and we
(12:47):
put it aside, cover it up,ignore that In my work I see
lots of senior executives doesthat.
But honestly, whatever wecovered, they will show up in
different places unexpected.
So if we see the ugly self thatwe need to work on, my advice
(13:10):
is always work on it when yousaw it for the first time,
because that's the smallestissue for you to resolve.
If we put it aside, it willgrow.
It will grow.
It will find a way to get ourattention that we can no longer
avoid looking at it and workingon it.
(13:30):
But when you're passing thatstage, you know that a certain
part of us are not as perfect aswe want it, and we can also be
very okay with that.
So we understand it.
So when we accept, or at leastwhen we know, all parts of
ourself human is very complex.
So when we understand all partsof self and accept every single
(13:54):
parts of ourselves and alsohave this clear understanding
and insights in variety ofsituations, which part of us
have the tendency to come out toplay, so we can have a self
observing ourselves, when weobserve all this and accept all
this.
Actually, I think that is whereconfidence comes from, because
(14:17):
we know exactly why we behave acertain way in certain situation
and then we also know why we donot behave certain ways in
certain situation.
And then we also know why we donot behave certain ways in
certain in certain situation,because why and why not?
It's all the conscious choicesthat we made for ourselves.
So we know why and we also knowthe consequences of that.
(14:39):
So that's the confidence comesfrom.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I think this confidence you speak about is
much more powerful than the kindof confidence we get from
reading a book, trying toimplement the strategies there
from a cognitive perspective,but without addressing all those
deeper reasons, the root causesas to why we act in a certain
way.
And I think a lot of us are notconscious of these patterns that
(15:06):
play out.
And I think a lot of us are notconscious of these patterns
that play out.
Every time they pop up again,we get upset in a new way, we
get triggered in a new way.
But, as you say, when we acceptall parts of ourselves and
notice, I think the noticing isimportant because that's like
taking a step away, putting somedistance, some emotional
distance between me and thething that is happening that's
(15:27):
reflecting back to me, and it'slike a conscious pause.
I'm giving myself somebreathing space to notice what's
happening and then to ask somequestions, to get curious, to
get compassionate, to understandmyself better.
I think, ultimately, the wholepoint of all this, this exercise
, is to know ourselves, as yousay because, when we know
(15:50):
ourselves, so we can know others.
If we can accept ourselves, wecan accept others, because this
is that part of me that shows uplike this, maybe in somebody
else.
That's why my client shows upthis way too, exactly I totally
agree with you, serena.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
You spot on, because I always think ourselves is the
best object for us to study.
If we cannot build a positiverelationship with ourselves,
it's guaranteed we will havetrouble to build a
growth-inspiring relationshipwith others relationship with
(16:31):
others.
So, but I guess this is theprocess of growing up as well.
I trust a lot of people,probably just like me, we came
here in our early 20s.
We actually spent our youngadulthood in this new
environment and because it's anew environment, we meet people
who does not speak our language,who does not understand our
ritual and culture and value,who has whole different sets of
(16:52):
the ways to grow up.
So there's a lot of I won't usethe words of conflict, but I
will say difference, becausethose are different.
So, comparing to what we did,what we think, what we feel in
the past, then we can naturallyget the result we want.
When we came here, usually wesay, oh, it doesn't work how I
(17:12):
think in the past if I use thesame way of thinking, it doesn't
work here, because the peoplehere doesn't think as what we
did back home.
So those mini conflict ordifference, in my view that's
the best opportunity for us toknow, oh, why I think this way,
what drives me to think this wayand what is the process for me
(17:35):
to make decisions?
Because unless we have clarityabout that, we will always feel
like, oh, we're rejected, wecannot integrate, we are
excluded.
It is not Because, for me,working working this meant 25
years now here, working with thepeople in the learning,
development, organizationaldevelopment, leadership
(17:55):
development side of the business.
In my eyes.
Actually, I think the differencemade by race, by your original
country, on human behaviors isminimal.
We're just a human.
No matter what kind of languageyou experience, we all go
through similar paths.
(18:16):
As a human being, we need tohave the challenge and the
difficulties, adversities.
We're probably going toexperience some struggles in the
early stage of our career orlife.
In my view, that's veryblessing, because we're probably
going to experience somestruggles in the early stage of
our career or life.
In my view, that's veryblessing because we're young, we
can starting from zero againand we can adopt and learn and
(18:37):
quickly grab all different kindof theory and the tools to help
us to stand up again.
So that's a blessing if you're,if the listeners are in their
early stage 20, 30, even 40, Ithink whatever kind of challenge
we face, they are truly blessed.
But use that challenge as theopportunity for us to know about
(18:58):
ourselves and to adjustourselves, because who we are
sometimes I think who we arekeeps changing.
There are certain part of uswill stick.
There are certain of us can bevery flexible because we need to
acquire different skills, adifferent mindset and the
different patterns and differenthabits to make sure whatever
(19:22):
the way we think and do and feelworks for us can get us to
where we want it to be.
So if we want it to besomewhere, we have to change our
path sometime.
We probably also need to changethe gills sometimes, but that's
way in control of that.
But how do we know which part ofthe path we need to change the
(19:43):
gill?
Maybe because when we'rewearing different shoes on that
path and we feel the pain in ourfeet.
So that's the reminder we needto change our gears.
So it's all different.
Using those feedback fromoutside as the reminder Okay,
something needs to change,something needs to adjust,
something I need to review andsomewhere, something I need to
(20:04):
let go, something I need toreview and somewhere, something
I need to let go, something Ineed to acquire.
So I see human, if they canreally grow with the flow.
They just like the river,constantly have new information
coming, but also leave somethingbehind.
So we're constantly updatingourselves.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yes, I I really um resonate with the idea of
constantly updating ourselves,but I want to take a step back
for the benefit of thoselisteners who are maybe new in
australia, in their first yearshere.
Maybe they are still studyingin the university, maybe they've
just started in the workforce.
What do you notice asdifferences in, maybe, the work
(20:49):
culture between someone from anEastern background and someone
who's grown up in a Westernbackground?
What are the differences you'veseen?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I would say because I'm Chinese.
So the way we were raised up isto be humble.
My first challenge when I cameto australia is gosh, very.
The people are so damnconfident.
If they only know 50 of thetopic they will speak up as if
they know 100.
(21:20):
But for asian, the way we wereraised up is, unless we know
150% of the topic, you shouldshut up, let other people talk
right, because you don't knoweverything.
So that's how we raised.
I'm not saying one way is betterthan the other.
I always say we need to findwhat is the sweet spot in
(21:46):
between that we feel extremelyauthentic to do, to present
ourselves so in the workplace.
Because I used to be thelearning development for
different kind of organizations.
So I was the person whoorganized the new employee
induction, this induction.
On the induction, I alwaysemphasize two points.
(22:08):
One is you need to takeinitiative.
The majority of theorganization, they have variety
of initiatives and the resourcesare provided to employee
learning resources particularly.
So you are because, justimagine, all those resources was
put in the basket by thecompany and you, as the
(22:30):
individual employee, you takethe responsibility to grow
yourself.
What does that mean?
You need to reach out, raiseyour hand, reach out the basket,
take the resources that youthink is available for you or
can be useful for you.
For example, your boss does nottake responsibility of your
(22:53):
learning and growth and you needto let your boss know what I
want to learn, what's the nextproject I love to do.
I need your help for me to getthere.
So you're responsible for yourpersonal growth and the
professional growth.
And take your manager, yourpeers, whoever in the company
that you think they have moreknowledge, more skill, more
(23:16):
experience than you.
Use them as your tools to getthere.
But if you shut up, be silentand hoping and wishing other
people can see your desire togrow, that is not responsible
for yourself.
So that's the very first thingBe responsible for your growth
(23:37):
in the workplace.
If you speak about it, otherpeople know what you want, but
if you do not, you keep silent.
No one has the responsibilityor obligation to guess what you
want.
But if you do not, you keepsilent.
No one has the responsibilityor obligation to guess what you
want.
The other thing is find thetalking to the smart people.
(23:57):
These smart people can besomeone in your circle or in the
society community that you'repart of, or this is some smart
people can be, someone written abook that just give you the
answer that you are part of, orthere's some smart people can be
someone written a book thatjust give you the answer that
you are searching for.
So that actually is for me.
That's my default pattern tosearch for answer back then Read
(24:19):
a book.
I still have been a vivid readerthese days like one book a week
minimum.
So most of the time when I havequestions and problems, worries
or frustrations, I feel likeeven in my closest circle I
couldn't find the right peopleto have a conversation.
Then read a book written bythose people who have the
(24:42):
solution for this just almostequals to have a direct
conversation with that person.
So your growth is yourresponsibility and we need to
learn how to be resourceful, touse our surroundings, the
resources, the people, theresources, the book, podcast,
(25:02):
anything that is relevant orthat we can reach out to use for
our own benefit, because allthis information is available
over there.
But don't ever wait for otherpeople to hand over the
resources to you ask you to use.
No, we need to take theresponsibility to reach out and
(25:23):
use them.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Those are very good points.
Number one would beself-responsibility, Number two
about being resourceful.
But I can imagine that somebodywho is listening to this, who
is introverted, who is thatquiet achiever, who, like you
say, is wishing someone wouldnotice and recognize their
competencies already, they mightbe thinking yes, that's very
good, Ella, but I'm too nervous,I'm too afraid to voice, you
(25:49):
know, to say that I need help,or to say this is what I need
for my professional development.
How do I go about speaking?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Okay, let me clarify here.
In a society we use a lot oflabels to separate people
introvert from extrovert.
I'm in the middle, I'm alsointrovert, I'm also extrovert.
I'm in the middle, I'm alsointrovert.
I'm also extrovert Whenever thesituation calls.
I don't think I need to clarifythat.
(26:16):
Introvert doesn't mean we don'thave the skills to speak.
We don't have the skills tobuild a relationship, we don't
have the skills to developourselves.
When we call someone isintrovert purely because this
person needs lots of me time torecover.
So that's how they gain energy.
(26:37):
When they have lots of energy,they can go out to dealing with
whatever the world, the societyrequire them to do.
So introvert can also be superskillful in terms of a building
relationship, in terms ofadvocating for themselves.
Introvert is not a nickname namefor people who haven't built
(26:58):
all those competencies.
So when we don't know how toreach out, asking for help, not
because we are introvert, it'sbecause we haven't built
competencies to articulate ourneeds in the way inviting others
to help us.
So when I coach youngergenerations, I always say make
(27:20):
yourself coachable.
What does that mean?
In the early stage of thecareer?
As an OD, usually we createthis framework to develop people
or identify high potentialemployees.
There's a certain kind ofbehavior we blended into the
capability framework to allowindividual employees and also
(27:43):
the business manager tounderstand what kind of behavior
we need to see that we can helpthis person to develop.
So there's one skill if you areat an early stage of a career
and you're really intimidated toreach out or build a fancy
network that makes you to be thecenter of the attention to
(28:05):
support you and help you be thecenter of the attention to
support you and help you theonly skills I think we need to
learn and feel very comfortableto learn and this can be
extremely beneficial for theearly careers is asking for
feedback, always asking forfeedback.
When I say this is verybeneficial, because this is
(28:26):
beneficial in multiple ways andcan provide people compound
effect afterwards if we reallymaster the skills.
Because first of all, you'reasking for feedback means first
of all, you accept you probablyonly focus on certain
(28:46):
perspective of the task or thesituations.
You would love to hear otherpeople's perspective and this
indicates you are regulating andmanaging your ego very well,
because usually the biggestproblem we observe in the
workplace for the youngergeneration or the early careers
(29:06):
when they first graduate fromuniversity when they have a lot
of academic education buthaven't had much of a real-life
application yet.
They usually think they knoweverything.
So in English there's words todescribe that situation we call
(29:27):
blissful ignorance.
When we are blissful ignorance,we are afraid to asking for
feedback because we anticipatewhat could be the negative
feedback for us.
So our ego cannot handle thatright.
We might feel hurt.
So we trust, tell yourself, wetrust everyone do their work to
(29:55):
the best of their knowledge.
But the best to the best of ourknowledge doesn't mean that's
the best solution for thesituation that we are facing.
So when we simply ask feedbackshows we are humble, we are open
to learn and through thatprocess we can also field out
(30:16):
whose feedback is useful for me.
So I need to keep this personclose to us, close to me, so in
the future we can always usethem as the sounding board for
the work we do Right or whosefeedback I probably feel doesn't
land very well with me.
Then why and how?
Is it because we have adifferent value system?
(30:37):
Is it because we have differentperspectives?
Is that because we have adifferent style?
So we don't connect very wellwhen we're not asking for the
feedback.
So other people also haveskills need to grow.
But for us, when we canidentify all those, we
(30:57):
understand which part of us thatwe need to focus on to grow,
which part of us we need tomaintain right.
So when we can really graspthese skills in the early three
years in the career, I thinkthis will help us to build a
very useful and valuable network, professionally and personally,
(31:22):
because that is the only wayother people would winning to
give you the feedback.
In my younger days, early days,I always believe whoever have
the guts and the courage come tome, give me constructive
feedback or criticism into myface.
Those are the people.
(31:42):
I want to keep them very closeto me.
I want to keep them very closeto me Because by human nature,
we all know telling ugly truthsprobably not going to end very
well.
So people trained to saysomething beautiful,
complimentary and praise you inyour face, but they may share
(32:06):
the ugly truth behind you.
So in the very early stage ofmy career, I want to change this
.
I don't want this.
I want people to have thecourage and the guts to tell me
the ugly truth into my face, andthey are the people I like to
keep very close to me, so that'sthe skill that's a very
(32:32):
interesting strategy yeah,that's a very simple way to do
that.
So I usually, even sometime whenI do report in the early days,
even sometime now, I always askwhat do you think you can add?
Is it anything I need to payattention to or what do you
think about this?
Um, can you tell me one thingthat this can be better?
So very simple, just as that.
(32:54):
Because at that time you shiftyour mind to focus on the task.
You want to make your task, theoutcome of the task you're
doing, to be as best, as betteras possible.
It's not about you, it's aboutyour work.
So when you separate yourselfand your work, your work is not
your identity.
So when people comment on thework you do, they are not
(33:17):
commenting on you, right?
So we want to make our work asgood as possible.
So we need to collaborate andtap into a variety of brilliant
minds to make sure the outcomeof the work we do is as good as
possible.
And this has nothing to do withwho I am.
(33:37):
No, it's not me, it's my work.
If we can separate this most ofthe time, we probably don't feel
very hurt and, plus, the bestfeedback usually people have the
guts to give us is sit in ourblind spot and lots of people,
when they were pointed to theirblind spot, they feel ashamed
(34:01):
because they think so high ofthemselves.
They think they have alreadyconsidered all the angles, all
the points, all the little, bigor small elements that they need
to put into their work.
But everyone we have blindspots.
So the first time when peoplepointing out your blind spot we
(34:24):
might feel gosh, does that meanall the hard work I did is
useless?
No, it's not.
So I learned to ask for blindspots.
Did I miss anything?
I did my best of thinking thisapart, but it's just the one
brain.
Did I miss anything?
So I will appreciate if you canlet me know if I missed
(34:46):
anything, not because I haven'tmade effort, I'm just
acknowledged I could have ablind spot, just like you could
also have a blind spot.
But whether you're going to askpeople to pointing out your
blind spot, your responsibility,not mine, but I responsible for
myself.
I wanted to connect with allthe people who have the
(35:09):
expertise and the competenciesto see my blind spot.
So if I can connect with allthose people which help me to
minimize my blind spot, I thinkI can do my work even better.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Isn't it?
That's very empowering, becauseI think what you said there
about separating my identityfrom what I do professionally is
very important.
A lot of us get the linesblurred and we think, you know,
when someone criticizes myperformance or my the way I
delivered or my communication,it becomes a criticism of me
personally, and so it's reallyimportant what you said there,
(35:51):
that the two things are separate.
Let's not confuse who we are,the essence of who we are, with
what we do, because what we docan always improve.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Exactly Because who we are is our character, our
values.
Right, that's who we are.
It's not the outcome of onepiece of work.
One piece of work comes fromknowledge, comes from skills,
comes from style, comes fromapproach, comes from connections
(36:22):
, comes from resources.
All those things have nothingto do with who you are.
Those are the things we'reconstantly building up and
constantly changing.
So those are two separatethings.
When we can separate these twothings, we can use whoever in
our circle extended circle evento help us to build the second
(36:47):
part of this task Moreresourceful, more perspective,
more skill, more experience,more knowledge, so we can make
our task have the best outcome,deliver the best outcome of that
.
But that has nothing to do withwho I am, what is my character,
(37:07):
what is my principle, what is mybelief?
Right, because sometimes I feelwe are so fearful to receive
different, to hear differentvoices, so fearful because we
feel like our ego is going to behurt, so we avoid all those
opportunities to challenge ouregos.
(37:28):
Sometimes, in my book I didn'tmention, ego is the thing that
we need to learn to manage whenwe grow up, because we do need
to have ego, just like we doneed to wear clothes every day
when we go out to see people.
But if we only focus oncomparing with others about how
(37:49):
I look in my clothes, that isnot going to be useful and
helpful for others to rememberus.
Because if you don't wantpeople to remember, you just,
like a person, carry all the bigbrands on your body but they
don't know who you are, don'tknow what you stand for, don't
(38:09):
know what is your quality.
They only remember oh, you're awhole bag of big brands, right?
So that's the ego.
We have to manage that.
It has its function, but don'tlet it over function.
So every single time when youhear someone say something about
you or your work, you feeloffended.
(38:30):
I always feel it's because ourego needs a lot of protection,
needs a lot of attention and ourego has this natural job to
compare us with others and weneed to feel we are better than
others.
That's how ego makes us feel.
But if we don't manage, if wedon't tame our ego in this way,
(38:51):
very soon the biggest ego we get, the biggest illusion we become
and the biggest distance wecreate between ourselves with
the reality.
But that's too deep theconversation, serena.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
There will have to be a conversation for another time
.
Yes, Talk to us about your bookUpgrade.
What is it about and who is itfor?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Okay Upgrade, because I have been coaching many
business owners, funders, withteams in the last five years,
six years, and I noticed lots ofpatterns in them.
So that got me to thinking alsoback then when I was in-house
consultant for learningdevelopment.
We bring so many programs,learning resources, to the
(39:37):
business.
Some employee can reallyinternalize the learning, but
others I feel they just learnthe theory and cognitively
that's all.
So you won't see much ofapplication.
They probably can share withyou lots of buzz buzzword, but
you won't see lots ofapplication in their daily life,
daily practice, so you alsowon't be able to see the
(40:00):
benefits they can get throughtheir work.
So that got me to thinking how,why certain people?
At a certain stage they canreally continue to take the
challenges and difficulties andgrow out of it more positively.
So that's when I thought, okay,we as a human being actually we
operate simultaneously on thisfull internal operating system.
(40:24):
I call them internal operatingsystem because no one see it,
but they do exist.
One is your mental operatingsystem comes from how we process
information and then makedecisions, and the second is
emotional operating system.
This is very important ifyou're in the workforce and you
(40:45):
would love to be the leader oneday, because eventually being a
leader really count on yourskills to build relationships
with others.
Because as a leader, we have tohave these skills to work with
and work through people to getthings done with minimal
friction.
And the third operating systemis spiritual operating system in
(41:07):
my view, and this is how wecarry out understand what could
be our co-values and also usecreative way to translate our
co-values into our daily work.
Honestly, this part, if we dovery well, give us lots of joy
and happiness, because that'sthe moment we feel we are in our
(41:28):
elements.
And a false operating system.
I call that a physicaloperating system because
majority of the people I workwith, we are knowledge worker.
We tend to believe oursmartness comes from our brain
and in our younger days we oftenforget our brain is a part of
the body and our body is thefactory.
(41:49):
It's the factory to pump up allthe smartness in our brain.
So in younger days we tend tothink as long as we don't get
sick, we're fine.
But I guess I experienced theburnout in my 30s, so that's the
time I started to understandhow human body and mind works.
So physical operating system.
(42:10):
Actually, I put a lot ofinformation over there to let
people to do some practice andexercise.
So for me, I'm a driven person,driven professionals I want to
maintain my high performance.
So when you're facing differentor complex situations, I always
ask myself what could be thefoundational habits that allow
(42:35):
me to maintain, or at leastcontinuously to access to the
high performance I decide tohave, rather than just to have a
high performance and drop downto the depression and go up
again.
That kind of roller coaster isnot sustainable for us to do our
work.
So those are four operatingsystem.
In my view, simultaneously,every human being will operate
(42:58):
on that.
So that book is purely helpingpeople to understand what is
their current default settingsof this operating systems and
what they can do to keep growingand upgrade their operating
systems.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Perfectly titled and thank you for sharing about the
mental, the emotional, thespiritual and physical operating
systems that all of us have andhow to upgrade, how to
acknowledge and how to upgradethem.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yes, I'm going to have two actually public
speaking next month, may andJuly in Sydney, and it's facing
all young professionals becausecurrently this book is already
evolved to inner edge capabilityframework that we work with
organizations to make it a partof the talent development.
(43:49):
So in May and July I was alsobooked to do some public
speaking with a bunch ofprofessionals to help them to
understand from individualperspective how can they start
to build all those habits toenable them keep this fall in
the operating system updated allthe time, because when it's
(44:12):
updated we really run at ourbest.
So we are not going to be theenemy of ourselves and we cannot
block ourselves most of thetime.
In my view, the older we get orthe mature we get, the senior
we get, the only enemy isourselves.
No one else outside ourselveswould block us, it's ourselves.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
On that note, I think we've spoken a lot today about
self-responsibility,self-leadership.
We've also talked about thestrengths and the benefits of
being bicultural, bilingual, ofstarting from a place of a
different culture, a differentbackground, a different language
, and then making thattransition into an
(44:57):
English-speaking culture withalso different cultural values,
and how to bring those twotogether and keep acknowledging,
accepting, working on beingopen to feedback, but also to
keep upgrading and updating whatwe have so that we can stay
current and relevant, able torespond, I think, and to adapt
to whatever is in front of us,but always remembering that our
(45:20):
identity, the essence of who weare, our character, our
principles and our values thosethings are a separate thing from
who we are, who we show up asprofessionally and what we do in
the world.
So thank you so much, ella, forthis wonderful perspective of
what it's like to be in themiddle of two cultures.
You know, navigating the two,not feeling that I have to be
(45:43):
one thing or the other thing, orthat was me and who am I now,
and then getting all confused,but actually actually to
beautifully integrate all partsof the environment that we are
in.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
You're right, because I think the beauty to be
bilingual, bicultural peoplehere is we have the opportunity
to pick the best from each, thenblend them together to be who
we are.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
That's the best opportunity we can have.
Right, it is.
It is such a gift and such ablessing and I'm very glad we
spoke today because what yousaid will be so encouraging, not
just for people in the earlystages of career, but, I think,
anyone who is navigating this.
You know, uh, the tension,maybe the the dance of cultures
and languages and differentvalues to thrive wherever we are
(46:32):
planted.
Yes, so I will post in the shownotes as well the link to your
book so that more people canlook, you know, check it out and
learn from you, and alsoconnect with you on LinkedIn
professionally to understandmore about your work and work
with you.
So, to all listeners, thank youso much for joining us on the
(46:53):
Quiet Warrior podcast.
If you have enjoyed thisepisode with Ella Chang, please
rate and review wherever you'relistening from, and we will see
you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
(47:13):
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serena LoQuiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
Hi, I'm Serena Lo.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Welcome to the Quiet Warriorpodcast.
Today's guest is a passionatestrategic changemaker,
(00:44):
organizational developmentconsultant and executive coach
who is dedicated to facilitatingpersonal and professional
growth.
She blends her practicalexperience in Fortune 100
companies and startups with agenuine passion for leadership
development and culturaltransformation development and
(01:05):
cultural transformation and overthe years, she has supported
teams and individuals indiscovering their strengths and
navigating challenges through afocus on capability development
and strategic change.
Welcome, ella Zhang, to theQuiet Warrior podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you for having me, Serena.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Ella, tell us more about your journey of migration
and how did you learn to speakEnglish as well as you do?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Okay, I came here to do my master's degree in my
early 20s.
So I finished my bachelor'sdegree in China and I studied
law back then.
So my dream in my early stageis to be a lawyer, that I always
thought about my job or myfuture.
(01:53):
My vocation is about speakingup for the women who cannot
speak up for themselves.
So that is the seeds growingbigger in myself since high
school, growing bigger in myselfsince high school.
But the reality probably has adifferent plan for me.
So since I graduated fromuniversity and landed my legal
(02:18):
job, I quickly realized Iactually do not have the
personality to become the lawyerthat I wanted to be.
So come overseas to studyactually is one of the major
reasons for that is I need tofind another domain that I can
feel I can wholeheartedly investmyself.
So I came here to study finance.
The original plan is only useone year to finish my master's
(02:43):
degree and at least, if I finish, I can go back to China to
practice law in financialindustry.
And the reason I chose financeis because even I'm Chinese, I'm
Asian, but I'm terrible withmath.
So I thought that would take melonger to get bored, because
I'm not good at numbers.
(03:04):
That would take me longer toget bored because I'm not good
at numbers, but you have to say,really the universe has its own
plan.
So since I landed in Sydney, Ifeel like Sydney plays a spell
on me and I fall in love inthese places, and also because I
don't have any relatives inSydney, which means this is a
(03:27):
clean piece of land that I canmake decisions for myself and on
myself.
So I guess there's a part of mewho always have this desire for
freedom.
Now found a piece of land forfuel, my dream.
So, um, one job after another.
(03:49):
I stayed here for 25 years.
So by listening to me you mightnotice I do have asian accent.
That's because in china we onlystart to learn English in
probably junior high, probablywhen we were 12 or 13 years old.
So I do remember when I firstcame to Australia.
(04:13):
Having an accent has a bigbarrier to really make myself,
to see what the value, what theworth I can bring to the
organization, to the people Iinteract.
So when I'm saying this, I feelback then we were trained to be
(04:33):
perfect, we were trained to notto make mistakes.
So it feels like speakingperfect English without any
accent is one of the goals.
So for the first few years thathas been my struggle.
Even I.
For the first 10 years inAustralia, I stopped speaking
(04:56):
Chinese, reading Chinese,writing Chinese for the first 10
years, purely to make myselfimmersed in English.
But still, every single timewhen we project certain words
maybe because we speak anotherlanguage, so how we project
certain words is a little bitdifferent, comparing to the
(05:17):
locals.
So I remember I consulted acoach and my teacher in the
university how can I get rid ofmy accent?
And one of the teachers said whyyou need to get rid of that?
Because no one can speak as youdid.
So that's your personality.
Because when you speak peoplewill naturally ask you oh,
(05:39):
originally, where you come from.
Because you have a differentbackground, you have a different
culture, you carry differentsets of values and you have your
own style.
So make your accent to be yourstrengths.
It never needs to be yourweakness.
So, starting from that point, Istart to focus on what could be
(06:00):
the message that I share withthe world.
People come to me not because Ihave accent.
People come to me because wehave substance, when we have
conversations, so theconversation can add value to
people and when we can continueto add value to people through
the interactions, no one reallycares how you pronounce some
(06:23):
specific words.
Of course there are people.
They're going to pick up on you.
So when they pick up, you thinkokay, whatever the comments and
the feedback they provide toyou is useful, we take it, we
improve it, otherwise let it go,move on.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, I think those are yes those are amazing
communication insights, ella.
Thank you for sharing them,because I can imagine there will
be some listeners here who arenon-native English speakers who
also feel very sensitive abouttheir accent being different.
It makes them stand out, butnot for the right reasons, they
(07:05):
think.
But what you're saying and yourteacher is very wise too is
that your accent, in a sense, isyour superpower, as they like
to say at the ProfessionalMigrant Women Network, that I
don't think there's anybody whospeaks without an accent.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Exactly exactly.
It's a way couldn't stop make a, make a judgment in our mind.
We also think, oh, I lovebritish accents because that
sounds so noble, right, and wedon't like all the accents.
So we actually ourselves wecarry lots of bias and judgment
(07:41):
in ourselves.
So, on one hand, because wehave such bias and prejudice
inside of us, we judge aboutevery single person we encounter
quickly, based on their look,their language skill, their
accent, even judging about howthey dress themselves up.
(08:02):
So we make lots of judgment.
And also, at the same time,because we're judging so much,
there's something inside of usactually becomes extremely
sensitive.
So we're worried other peoplewere judging us as well.
So this is the game we play asa human, unconsciously.
(08:23):
So for me doing my work becausemy work involves me working with
a variety of people, and Iremember the first day when I
had my very first coachingsession with my clients the only
thing I noticed is my futus, myjudgment.
The flex shows up in myselfwhen I was in conversation with
(08:48):
my client.
At that time I thought, damn, Ican never be a very good coach
because I'm so judgmental.
I quickly make a judgment andsay, oh, this is a good, that is
bad.
This is not right.
So I quickly doing that.
But the beauty of working inthis industry is every single
conversation we had with peoplewe are healing some certain part
(09:10):
of ourselves.
So slowly we really start toaccept everyone as who they are,
but also, at the same time, weare accepting ourselves as who
we are.
The more acceptance we become,the less judgmental we become
and the less sensitive we are towhoever others, whatever kind
(09:32):
of comments others need to make.
I always share with my clientsthat if we're so damn easily to
be triggered by others' comments, be triggered by others'
comments regardless of others'intention.
But we get triggered, agitatedor get hurt about others' random
(09:54):
comments.
It really has nothing to dowith those people.
Actually, those people handover a very beautiful gift to us
because in that moment meanssomething inside of us requires
some work.
There's a trigger when we canbe triggered.
The only reason we can betriggered is because there's a
trigger inside of us.
So it's our job to go throughthose co-created experiences
(10:18):
with others, to work and processour triggers until we can no
longer be triggered by others.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I feel there is something deeply philosophical
in there.
That's also very true, becauseother people are a mirror of us,
isn't it?
And what they show to ussometimes are those parts of us
that we really don't want to see, or that we don't like, or that
we have rejected, or that wefeel there's something wrong
(10:49):
about me, something not goodenough.
So when somebody holds a mirrorup to that it's, it's not a
comfortable feeling we have tolook at ourselves and then we
have to decide.
If I don't like this part of me,what am I going to do about it?
Do I accept it?
Do I change it?
Do I ignore it?
Do I just let it be?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I remember early days when I was so passionate about
personal development andprofessional development even
though now this is my work,combine those two together but
in my early days to embark onthe journey of a personal
development and a professionaldevelopment.
Honestly, I feel there are manymoments that somehow we were
(11:36):
put in the position to see theugly self.
When we learn all the skillsand the theories to be a better
human being, when we know thetheory, somehow we have this
illusion as if we know how to bea better self.
We just immediately become thatbetter self.
So there are situations.
(11:59):
The universe has its own way ofwork.
There are situations when weinteract with others or when we
encounter certain situations wesuddenly notice damn, I'm not as
good as I thought I am.
So those moments at thebeginning can be very
disappointing.
But I do hope whoever mayexperience those moments just be
(12:25):
self-assured, because only whenwe see the ugly self, we have
the opportunity to face it, towork on it, then we can truly
become the better version ofself.
If we saw that and we feel verydisappointed and disgust and we
(12:47):
put it aside, cover it up,ignore that In my work I see
lots of senior executives doesthat.
But honestly, whatever wecovered, they will show up in
different places unexpected.
So if we see the ugly self thatwe need to work on, my advice
(13:10):
is always work on it when yousaw it for the first time,
because that's the smallestissue for you to resolve.
If we put it aside, it willgrow.
It will grow.
It will find a way to get ourattention that we can no longer
avoid looking at it and workingon it.
(13:30):
But when you're passing thatstage, you know that a certain
part of us are not as perfect aswe want it, and we can also be
very okay with that.
So we understand it.
So when we accept, or at leastwhen we know, all parts of
ourself human is very complex.
So when we understand all partsof self and accept every single
(13:54):
parts of ourselves and alsohave this clear understanding
and insights in variety ofsituations, which part of us
have the tendency to come out toplay, so we can have a self
observing ourselves, when weobserve all this and accept all
this.
Actually, I think that is whereconfidence comes from, because
(14:17):
we know exactly why we behave acertain way in certain situation
and then we also know why we donot behave certain ways in
certain situation.
And then we also know why we donot behave certain ways in
certain in certain situation,because why and why not?
It's all the conscious choicesthat we made for ourselves.
So we know why and we also knowthe consequences of that.
(14:39):
So that's the confidence comesfrom.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I think this confidence you speak about is
much more powerful than the kindof confidence we get from
reading a book, trying toimplement the strategies there
from a cognitive perspective,but without addressing all those
deeper reasons, the root causesas to why we act in a certain
way.
And I think a lot of us are notconscious of these patterns that
(15:06):
play out.
And I think a lot of us are notconscious of these patterns
that play out.
Every time they pop up again,we get upset in a new way, we
get triggered in a new way.
But, as you say, when we acceptall parts of ourselves and
notice, I think the noticing isimportant because that's like
taking a step away, putting somedistance, some emotional
distance between me and thething that is happening that's
(15:27):
reflecting back to me, and it'slike a conscious pause.
I'm giving myself somebreathing space to notice what's
happening and then to ask somequestions, to get curious, to
get compassionate, to understandmyself better.
I think, ultimately, the wholepoint of all this, this exercise
, is to know ourselves, as yousay because, when we know
(15:50):
ourselves, so we can know others.
If we can accept ourselves, wecan accept others, because this
is that part of me that shows uplike this, maybe in somebody
else.
That's why my client shows upthis way too, exactly I totally
agree with you, serena.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
You spot on, because I always think ourselves is the
best object for us to study.
If we cannot build a positiverelationship with ourselves,
it's guaranteed we will havetrouble to build a
growth-inspiring relationshipwith others relationship with
(16:31):
others.
So, but I guess this is theprocess of growing up as well.
I trust a lot of people,probably just like me, we came
here in our early 20s.
We actually spent our youngadulthood in this new
environment and because it's anew environment, we meet people
who does not speak our language,who does not understand our
ritual and culture and value,who has whole different sets of
(16:52):
the ways to grow up.
So there's a lot of I won't usethe words of conflict, but I
will say difference, becausethose are different.
So, comparing to what we did,what we think, what we feel in
the past, then we can naturallyget the result we want.
When we came here, usually wesay, oh, it doesn't work how I
(17:12):
think in the past if I use thesame way of thinking, it doesn't
work here, because the peoplehere doesn't think as what we
did back home.
So those mini conflict ordifference, in my view that's
the best opportunity for us toknow, oh, why I think this way,
what drives me to think this wayand what is the process for me
(17:35):
to make decisions?
Because unless we have clarityabout that, we will always feel
like, oh, we're rejected, wecannot integrate, we are
excluded.
It is not Because, for me,working working this meant 25
years now here, working with thepeople in the learning,
development, organizationaldevelopment, leadership
(17:55):
development side of the business.
In my eyes.
Actually, I think the differencemade by race, by your original
country, on human behaviors isminimal.
We're just a human.
No matter what kind of languageyou experience, we all go
through similar paths.
(18:16):
As a human being, we need tohave the challenge and the
difficulties, adversities.
We're probably going toexperience some struggles in the
early stage of our career orlife.
In my view, that's veryblessing, because we're probably
going to experience somestruggles in the early stage of
our career or life.
In my view, that's veryblessing because we're young, we
can starting from zero againand we can adopt and learn and
(18:37):
quickly grab all different kindof theory and the tools to help
us to stand up again.
So that's a blessing if you're,if the listeners are in their
early stage 20, 30, even 40, Ithink whatever kind of challenge
we face, they are truly blessed.
But use that challenge as theopportunity for us to know about
(18:58):
ourselves and to adjustourselves, because who we are
sometimes I think who we arekeeps changing.
There are certain part of uswill stick.
There are certain of us can bevery flexible because we need to
acquire different skills, adifferent mindset and the
different patterns and differenthabits to make sure whatever
(19:22):
the way we think and do and feelworks for us can get us to
where we want it to be.
So if we want it to besomewhere, we have to change our
path sometime.
We probably also need to changethe gills sometimes, but that's
way in control of that.
But how do we know which part ofthe path we need to change the
(19:43):
gill?
Maybe because when we'rewearing different shoes on that
path and we feel the pain in ourfeet.
So that's the reminder we needto change our gears.
So it's all different.
Using those feedback fromoutside as the reminder Okay,
something needs to change,something needs to adjust,
something I need to review andsomewhere, something I need to
(20:04):
let go, something I need toreview and somewhere, something
I need to let go, something Ineed to acquire.
So I see human, if they canreally grow with the flow.
They just like the river,constantly have new information
coming, but also leave somethingbehind.
So we're constantly updatingourselves.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yes, I I really um resonate with the idea of
constantly updating ourselves,but I want to take a step back
for the benefit of thoselisteners who are maybe new in
australia, in their first yearshere.
Maybe they are still studyingin the university, maybe they've
just started in the workforce.
What do you notice asdifferences in, maybe, the work
(20:49):
culture between someone from anEastern background and someone
who's grown up in a Westernbackground?
What are the differences you'veseen?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I would say because I'm Chinese.
So the way we were raised up isto be humble.
My first challenge when I cameto australia is gosh, very.
The people are so damnconfident.
If they only know 50 of thetopic they will speak up as if
they know 100.
(21:20):
But for asian, the way we wereraised up is, unless we know
150% of the topic, you shouldshut up, let other people talk
right, because you don't knoweverything.
So that's how we raised.
I'm not saying one way is betterthan the other.
I always say we need to findwhat is the sweet spot in
(21:46):
between that we feel extremelyauthentic to do, to present
ourselves so in the workplace.
Because I used to be thelearning development for
different kind of organizations.
So I was the person whoorganized the new employee
induction, this induction.
On the induction, I alwaysemphasize two points.
(22:08):
One is you need to takeinitiative.
The majority of theorganization, they have variety
of initiatives and the resourcesare provided to employee
learning resources particularly.
So you are because, justimagine, all those resources was
put in the basket by thecompany and you, as the
(22:30):
individual employee, you takethe responsibility to grow
yourself.
What does that mean?
You need to reach out, raiseyour hand, reach out the basket,
take the resources that youthink is available for you or
can be useful for you.
For example, your boss does nottake responsibility of your
(22:53):
learning and growth and you needto let your boss know what I
want to learn, what's the nextproject I love to do.
I need your help for me to getthere.
So you're responsible for yourpersonal growth and the
professional growth.
And take your manager, yourpeers, whoever in the company
that you think they have moreknowledge, more skill, more
(23:16):
experience than you.
Use them as your tools to getthere.
But if you shut up, be silentand hoping and wishing other
people can see your desire togrow, that is not responsible
for yourself.
So that's the very first thingBe responsible for your growth
(23:37):
in the workplace.
If you speak about it, otherpeople know what you want, but
if you do not, you keep silent.
No one has the responsibilityor obligation to guess what you
want.
But if you do not, you keepsilent.
No one has the responsibilityor obligation to guess what you
want.
The other thing is find thetalking to the smart people.
(23:57):
These smart people can besomeone in your circle or in the
society community that you'repart of, or this is some smart
people can be, someone written abook that just give you the
answer that you are part of, orthere's some smart people can be
someone written a book thatjust give you the answer that
you are searching for.
So that actually is for me.
That's my default pattern tosearch for answer back then Read
(24:19):
a book.
I still have been a vivid readerthese days like one book a week
minimum.
So most of the time when I havequestions and problems, worries
or frustrations, I feel likeeven in my closest circle I
couldn't find the right peopleto have a conversation.
Then read a book written bythose people who have the
(24:42):
solution for this just almostequals to have a direct
conversation with that person.
So your growth is yourresponsibility and we need to
learn how to be resourceful, touse our surroundings, the
resources, the people, theresources, the book, podcast,
(25:02):
anything that is relevant orthat we can reach out to use for
our own benefit, because allthis information is available
over there.
But don't ever wait for otherpeople to hand over the
resources to you ask you to use.
No, we need to take theresponsibility to reach out and
(25:23):
use them.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Those are very good points.
Number one would beself-responsibility, Number two
about being resourceful.
But I can imagine that somebodywho is listening to this, who
is introverted, who is thatquiet achiever, who, like you
say, is wishing someone wouldnotice and recognize their
competencies already, they mightbe thinking yes, that's very
good, Ella, but I'm too nervous,I'm too afraid to voice, you
(25:49):
know, to say that I need help,or to say this is what I need
for my professional development.
How do I go about speaking?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Okay, let me clarify here.
In a society we use a lot oflabels to separate people
introvert from extrovert.
I'm in the middle, I'm alsointrovert, I'm also extrovert.
I'm in the middle, I'm alsointrovert.
I'm also extrovert Whenever thesituation calls.
I don't think I need to clarifythat.
(26:16):
Introvert doesn't mean we don'thave the skills to speak.
We don't have the skills tobuild a relationship, we don't
have the skills to developourselves.
When we call someone isintrovert purely because this
person needs lots of me time torecover.
So that's how they gain energy.
(26:37):
When they have lots of energy,they can go out to dealing with
whatever the world, the societyrequire them to do.
So introvert can also be superskillful in terms of a building
relationship, in terms ofadvocating for themselves.
Introvert is not a nickname namefor people who haven't built
(26:58):
all those competencies.
So when we don't know how toreach out, asking for help, not
because we are introvert, it'sbecause we haven't built
competencies to articulate ourneeds in the way inviting others
to help us.
So when I coach youngergenerations, I always say make
(27:20):
yourself coachable.
What does that mean?
In the early stage of thecareer?
As an OD, usually we createthis framework to develop people
or identify high potentialemployees.
There's a certain kind ofbehavior we blended into the
capability framework to allowindividual employees and also
(27:43):
the business manager tounderstand what kind of behavior
we need to see that we can helpthis person to develop.
So there's one skill if you areat an early stage of a career
and you're really intimidated toreach out or build a fancy
network that makes you to be thecenter of the attention to
(28:05):
support you and help you be thecenter of the attention to
support you and help you theonly skills I think we need to
learn and feel very comfortableto learn and this can be
extremely beneficial for theearly careers is asking for
feedback, always asking forfeedback.
When I say this is verybeneficial, because this is
(28:26):
beneficial in multiple ways andcan provide people compound
effect afterwards if we reallymaster the skills.
Because first of all, you'reasking for feedback means first
of all, you accept you probablyonly focus on certain
(28:46):
perspective of the task or thesituations.
You would love to hear otherpeople's perspective and this
indicates you are regulating andmanaging your ego very well,
because usually the biggestproblem we observe in the
workplace for the youngergeneration or the early careers
(29:06):
when they first graduate fromuniversity when they have a lot
of academic education buthaven't had much of a real-life
application yet.
They usually think they knoweverything.
So in English there's words todescribe that situation we call
(29:27):
blissful ignorance.
When we are blissful ignorance,we are afraid to asking for
feedback because we anticipatewhat could be the negative
feedback for us.
So our ego cannot handle thatright.
We might feel hurt.
So we trust, tell yourself, wetrust everyone do their work to
(29:55):
the best of their knowledge.
But the best to the best of ourknowledge doesn't mean that's
the best solution for thesituation that we are facing.
So when we simply ask feedbackshows we are humble, we are open
to learn and through thatprocess we can also field out
(30:16):
whose feedback is useful for me.
So I need to keep this personclose to us, close to me, so in
the future we can always usethem as the sounding board for
the work we do Right or whosefeedback I probably feel doesn't
land very well with me.
Then why and how?
Is it because we have adifferent value system?
(30:37):
Is it because we have differentperspectives?
Is that because we have adifferent style?
So we don't connect very wellwhen we're not asking for the
feedback.
So other people also haveskills need to grow.
But for us, when we canidentify all those, we
(30:57):
understand which part of us thatwe need to focus on to grow,
which part of us we need tomaintain right.
So when we can really graspthese skills in the early three
years in the career, I thinkthis will help us to build a
very useful and valuable network, professionally and personally,
(31:22):
because that is the only wayother people would winning to
give you the feedback.
In my younger days, early days,I always believe whoever have
the guts and the courage come tome, give me constructive
feedback or criticism into myface.
Those are the people.
(31:42):
I want to keep them very closeto me.
I want to keep them very closeto me Because by human nature,
we all know telling ugly truthsprobably not going to end very
well.
So people trained to saysomething beautiful,
complimentary and praise you inyour face, but they may share
(32:06):
the ugly truth behind you.
So in the very early stage ofmy career, I want to change this
.
I don't want this.
I want people to have thecourage and the guts to tell me
the ugly truth into my face, andthey are the people I like to
keep very close to me, so that'sthe skill that's a very
(32:32):
interesting strategy yeah,that's a very simple way to do
that.
So I usually, even sometime whenI do report in the early days,
even sometime now, I always askwhat do you think you can add?
Is it anything I need to payattention to or what do you
think about this?
Um, can you tell me one thingthat this can be better?
So very simple, just as that.
(32:54):
Because at that time you shiftyour mind to focus on the task.
You want to make your task, theoutcome of the task you're
doing, to be as best, as betteras possible.
It's not about you, it's aboutyour work.
So when you separate yourselfand your work, your work is not
your identity.
So when people comment on thework you do, they are not
(33:17):
commenting on you, right?
So we want to make our work asgood as possible.
So we need to collaborate andtap into a variety of brilliant
minds to make sure the outcomeof the work we do is as good as
possible.
And this has nothing to do withwho I am.
(33:37):
No, it's not me, it's my work.
If we can separate this most ofthe time, we probably don't feel
very hurt and, plus, the bestfeedback usually people have the
guts to give us is sit in ourblind spot and lots of people,
when they were pointed to theirblind spot, they feel ashamed
(34:01):
because they think so high ofthemselves.
They think they have alreadyconsidered all the angles, all
the points, all the little, bigor small elements that they need
to put into their work.
But everyone we have blindspots.
So the first time when peoplepointing out your blind spot we
(34:24):
might feel gosh, does that meanall the hard work I did is
useless?
No, it's not.
So I learned to ask for blindspots.
Did I miss anything?
I did my best of thinking thisapart, but it's just the one
brain.
Did I miss anything?
So I will appreciate if you canlet me know if I missed
(34:46):
anything, not because I haven'tmade effort, I'm just
acknowledged I could have ablind spot, just like you could
also have a blind spot.
But whether you're going to askpeople to pointing out your
blind spot, your responsibility,not mine, but I responsible for
myself.
I wanted to connect with allthe people who have the
(35:09):
expertise and the competenciesto see my blind spot.
So if I can connect with allthose people which help me to
minimize my blind spot, I thinkI can do my work even better.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Isn't it?
That's very empowering, becauseI think what you said there
about separating my identityfrom what I do professionally is
very important.
A lot of us get the linesblurred and we think, you know,
when someone criticizes myperformance or my the way I
delivered or my communication,it becomes a criticism of me
personally, and so it's reallyimportant what you said there,
(35:51):
that the two things are separate.
Let's not confuse who we are,the essence of who we are, with
what we do, because what we docan always improve.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Exactly Because who we are is our character, our
values.
Right, that's who we are.
It's not the outcome of onepiece of work.
One piece of work comes fromknowledge, comes from skills,
comes from style, comes fromapproach, comes from connections
(36:22):
, comes from resources.
All those things have nothingto do with who you are.
Those are the things we'reconstantly building up and
constantly changing.
So those are two separatethings.
When we can separate these twothings, we can use whoever in
our circle extended circle evento help us to build the second
(36:47):
part of this task Moreresourceful, more perspective,
more skill, more experience,more knowledge, so we can make
our task have the best outcome,deliver the best outcome of that
.
But that has nothing to do withwho I am, what is my character,
(37:07):
what is my principle, what is mybelief?
Right, because sometimes I feelwe are so fearful to receive
different, to hear differentvoices, so fearful because we
feel like our ego is going to behurt, so we avoid all those
opportunities to challenge ouregos.
(37:28):
Sometimes, in my book I didn'tmention, ego is the thing that
we need to learn to manage whenwe grow up, because we do need
to have ego, just like we doneed to wear clothes every day
when we go out to see people.
But if we only focus oncomparing with others about how
(37:49):
I look in my clothes, that isnot going to be useful and
helpful for others to rememberus.
Because if you don't wantpeople to remember, you just,
like a person, carry all the bigbrands on your body but they
don't know who you are, don'tknow what you stand for, don't
(38:09):
know what is your quality.
They only remember oh, you're awhole bag of big brands, right?
So that's the ego.
We have to manage that.
It has its function, but don'tlet it over function.
So every single time when youhear someone say something about
you or your work, you feeloffended.
(38:30):
I always feel it's because ourego needs a lot of protection,
needs a lot of attention and ourego has this natural job to
compare us with others and weneed to feel we are better than
others.
That's how ego makes us feel.
But if we don't manage, if wedon't tame our ego in this way,
(38:51):
very soon the biggest ego we get, the biggest illusion we become
and the biggest distance wecreate between ourselves with
the reality.
But that's too deep theconversation, serena.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
There will have to be a conversation for another time
.
Yes, Talk to us about your bookUpgrade.
What is it about and who is itfor?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Okay Upgrade, because I have been coaching many
business owners, funders, withteams in the last five years,
six years, and I noticed lots ofpatterns in them.
So that got me to thinking alsoback then when I was in-house
consultant for learningdevelopment.
We bring so many programs,learning resources, to the
(39:37):
business.
Some employee can reallyinternalize the learning, but
others I feel they just learnthe theory and cognitively
that's all.
So you won't see much ofapplication.
They probably can share withyou lots of buzz buzzword, but
you won't see lots ofapplication in their daily life,
daily practice, so you alsowon't be able to see the
(40:00):
benefits they can get throughtheir work.
So that got me to thinking how,why certain people?
At a certain stage they canreally continue to take the
challenges and difficulties andgrow out of it more positively.
So that's when I thought, okay,we as a human being actually we
operate simultaneously on thisfull internal operating system.
(40:24):
I call them internal operatingsystem because no one see it,
but they do exist.
One is your mental operatingsystem comes from how we process
information and then makedecisions, and the second is
emotional operating system.
This is very important ifyou're in the workforce and you
(40:45):
would love to be the leader oneday, because eventually being a
leader really count on yourskills to build relationships
with others.
Because as a leader, we have tohave these skills to work with
and work through people to getthings done with minimal
friction.
And the third operating systemis spiritual operating system in
(41:07):
my view, and this is how wecarry out understand what could
be our co-values and also usecreative way to translate our
co-values into our daily work.
Honestly, this part, if we dovery well, give us lots of joy
and happiness, because that'sthe moment we feel we are in our
(41:28):
elements.
And a false operating system.
I call that a physicaloperating system because
majority of the people I workwith, we are knowledge worker.
We tend to believe oursmartness comes from our brain
and in our younger days we oftenforget our brain is a part of
the body and our body is thefactory.
(41:49):
It's the factory to pump up allthe smartness in our brain.
So in younger days we tend tothink as long as we don't get
sick, we're fine.
But I guess I experienced theburnout in my 30s, so that's the
time I started to understandhow human body and mind works.
So physical operating system.
(42:10):
Actually, I put a lot ofinformation over there to let
people to do some practice andexercise.
So for me, I'm a driven person,driven professionals I want to
maintain my high performance.
So when you're facing differentor complex situations, I always
ask myself what could be thefoundational habits that allow
(42:35):
me to maintain, or at leastcontinuously to access to the
high performance I decide tohave, rather than just to have a
high performance and drop downto the depression and go up
again.
That kind of roller coaster isnot sustainable for us to do our
work.
So those are four operatingsystem.
In my view, simultaneously,every human being will operate
(42:58):
on that.
So that book is purely helpingpeople to understand what is
their current default settingsof this operating systems and
what they can do to keep growingand upgrade their operating
systems.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Perfectly titled and thank you for sharing about the
mental, the emotional, thespiritual and physical operating
systems that all of us have andhow to upgrade, how to
acknowledge and how to upgradethem.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yes, I'm going to have two actually public
speaking next month, may andJuly in Sydney, and it's facing
all young professionals becausecurrently this book is already
evolved to inner edge capabilityframework that we work with
organizations to make it a partof the talent development.
(43:49):
So in May and July I was alsobooked to do some public
speaking with a bunch ofprofessionals to help them to
understand from individualperspective how can they start
to build all those habits toenable them keep this fall in
the operating system updated allthe time, because when it's
(44:12):
updated we really run at ourbest.
So we are not going to be theenemy of ourselves and we cannot
block ourselves most of thetime.
In my view, the older we get orthe mature we get, the senior
we get, the only enemy isourselves.
No one else outside ourselveswould block us, it's ourselves.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
On that note, I think we've spoken a lot today about
self-responsibility,self-leadership.
We've also talked about thestrengths and the benefits of
being bicultural, bilingual, ofstarting from a place of a
different culture, a differentbackground, a different language
, and then making thattransition into an
(44:57):
English-speaking culture withalso different cultural values,
and how to bring those twotogether and keep acknowledging,
accepting, working on beingopen to feedback, but also to
keep upgrading and updating whatwe have so that we can stay
current and relevant, able torespond, I think, and to adapt
to whatever is in front of us,but always remembering that our
(45:20):
identity, the essence of who weare, our character, our
principles and our values thosethings are a separate thing from
who we are, who we show up asprofessionally and what we do in
the world.
So thank you so much, ella, forthis wonderful perspective of
what it's like to be in themiddle of two cultures.
You know, navigating the two,not feeling that I have to be
(45:43):
one thing or the other thing, orthat was me and who am I now,
and then getting all confused,but actually actually to
beautifully integrate all partsof the environment that we are
in.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
You're right, because I think the beauty to be
bilingual, bicultural peoplehere is we have the opportunity
to pick the best from each, thenblend them together to be who
we are.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
That's the best opportunity we can have.
Right, it is.
It is such a gift and such ablessing and I'm very glad we
spoke today because what yousaid will be so encouraging, not
just for people in the earlystages of career, but, I think,
anyone who is navigating this.
You know, uh, the tension,maybe the the dance of cultures
and languages and differentvalues to thrive wherever we are
(46:32):
planted.
Yes, so I will post in the shownotes as well the link to your
book so that more people canlook, you know, check it out and
learn from you, and alsoconnect with you on LinkedIn
professionally to understandmore about your work and work
with you.
So, to all listeners, thank youso much for joining us on the
(46:53):
Quiet Warrior podcast.
If you have enjoyed thisepisode with Ella Chang, please
rate and review wherever you'relistening from, and we will see
you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
(47:13):
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serena LoQuiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.