February 18, 2025 • 76 mins
After years of struggling with incarceration and substance abuse, Sarah Keel experienced a profound transformation that led her to become the Executive Director at Renew Clinic. On this episode of The Radiant Mission Podcast, Sarah shares her deeply personal journey from darkness to light, inspired by an encounter with the gospel during her time in jail in 2007. Her story is not just one of redemption but also a testament to the power of faith, community, and prayer in overcoming addiction and supporting loved ones who face similar battles.
In our conversation, we address the deeply emotional and psychological ramifications of abortion, highlighting the often ignored links between abortion, mental health struggles, and substance abuse. Through personal experiences, we unpack the emotional scars that can follow and challenge societal desensitization to abortion's impact. By sharing these insights, we aim to open up a wider dialogue about the true effects of abortion and emphasize faith's role in spiritual healing and confronting past traumas.
We also navigate the complex realm of spiritual warfare, exploring how certain life choices can leave us vulnerable to spiritual attacks. Sarah and I discuss the importance of recognizing these challenges and the strength that faith offers in overcoming them. Our episode concludes with a powerful message of grace and redemption, reassuring listeners that no one is beyond the reach of God's love and healing power. Join us as we uncover the spiritual battles that many face and the victory that faith promises.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission podcast.
My name is Rebecca Toomey andwe are on a mission to encourage
and inspire you as you'renavigating through your life and
with your relationship withChrist.
We've been in a series on beingcountercultural in a secular
world and today I welcome a veryspecial guest.
Her name is Sarah Keel and sheis a wife, mom, lover of Jesus
(00:54):
and is the executive director atRenew Clinic.
Sarah has a long history ofincarceration, substance abuse
and mental health issues and shedid not grow up in a Christian
household, but she wasintroduced to the gospel message
while in jail in 2007.
Ever since, sarah has beengrowing in her relationship with
Christ.
She earned her bachelor'sdegree in applied behavioral
(01:15):
science, is a certified recoverycoach and a certified
transformational leadershiptrainer.
Sarah is currently working onher master's in global
apologetics from ColoradoChristian University and she's
been working in the mentalhealth industry since 2013 as a
high-risk educator, residentadvisor for at-risk youth in New
(01:37):
Mexico, fswii for TennesseeDepartment of Children's
Services, regional Faith-BasedCommunity Coordinator at MDC
State of Tennessee, and now theExecutive Director for Renew
Clinic.
I had the pleasure of meetingSarah after I heard her
testimony at our church,actually on Easter Sunday last
(01:59):
year, and I am just, sarah, sograteful that you are here today
.
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, and thank you for inviting me.
That was so kind.
I remember you coming up to meand I think it was on that
Easter Sunday and you said Ihave a podcast, I want to have
you on.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I was.
So I actually usually sit in theback to the left-hand side.
I just always we tend to sit inthe same place, and that day we
sat right in the middle, liketwo rows back.
It was like you were talkingright to me sharing your
testimony and it just honestlyresonated so much, especially as
(02:41):
someone who has multiple familymembers that have struggled
with addiction, and at thatmoment, when you shared your
testimony, I was thinking ofthose people.
I may have been sitting withone of them and I just was
thinking people need to hearthis that aren't here today
about what you've been throughand how God has gotten you
(03:04):
through it, but also how someonelike me who has family members
and loved ones and friends thatare going through addiction, can
help, what we can do to supportthe people around us, how we
can pray for them, what we couldpray for them, whatever the
(03:24):
case might be.
So I just knew I was literallysitting there like I have to
talk to her.
I actually think I was a littlebit crazy when I ran up to you.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I'm like so nice to meet you.
Come on the podcast.
Yeah, I just thought, wow, youlook like a movie star.
She must have a really popularpodcast.
She looks like a movie star,you're so sweet.
No but I love your heart forstory and just sitting here
talking to you the last halfhour, you know you're such a
(03:55):
sweet, sweet person and I canjust see Christ all over you and
I love what you're doing here.
So thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
So I have mentioned I got tohear that short version of your
testimony because I'm sure theywould they give you 20 minutes.
Whatever it was, it wasimpactful, maybe not even.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
No, not even it might've been 10.
It might've maybe 10.
I don't even know.
It could have been five, Ican't remember, but it wasn't
very long.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I knew a lot was missing, but the things that I
did hear and a lot of it wasvery heartbreaking.
You know, something that youdiscuss is abortion, and a lot
of it was really inspiring, andso I just knew that your story
is one that others need to hear.
So take your time.
Do not do this in five or 10minutes.
(04:47):
Take your time and walk usthrough your journey.
You know where do you want tostart.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I usually don't like it when people start where I'm
about to start, but I do feellike I should start as just
being a child.
So you had mentioned and I saidthis on stage and I'm going to
say it again I didn't grow up ina Christian home, but I always.
But I didn't grow up in anenvironment that was hostile to
Christ, Like we wouldoccasionally go to church on
(05:21):
Easter or Christmas, you knowthings like that, and I would
say that we were guided byChristian principles.
But I never knew and I heardabout Jesus, but it's not like I
understood doctrine or couldarticulate the gospel or, you
know, knew that Jesus is God inthe flesh.
(05:44):
You know I never had any Biblestudies or anything like that my
father, who adopted me when Iwas nine because I never met my
biological father he's also um,from what I know about him is
struggles with addiction as wellUm, so I was adopted when I was
(06:06):
I want to say I was eight Ithink I just said I was nine,
but I was eight but he is afaithful Jew and he is not a
Christian, but he has alwaysbeen very infatuated with like
Eastern religions and thingslike that and has always been
very infatuated with likeEastern religions and things
like that.
And you know he had a verystrict upbringing so he was
(06:28):
pretty strict and I think thatthere were some benefits to that
.
You know in my life that hetaught me, but I say all that to
say I was not raised aChristian.
You know it was more of auniversalist perspective about
God that.
You know you hear the differentstories or the different
(06:49):
metaphors of.
You know we're all looking atthe elephant from different
angles and some people describethis side of the elephant this
way.
I think my dad has even saidthis to me several times.
We went to a universalistUnitarian church a few times.
He was heavily involved in therecovery community.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Interesting Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yes.
So I remember when I was little, going to meetings and
listening to adults.
Was he recovering?
Was he Okay?
Yes, yes, yes.
Now I never knew him when hewas in active use, when he was
actively using, but yes, he's inrecovery.
(07:33):
So I spent a lot of mychildhood around adults.
I was an only child so you knowI was always around adults
talking about recovery, in therooms of AA and NA, going to
Al-Anon meetings, sitting aroundhaving coffee and cookies with
everyone, going to coffee shopsafter meetings.
So I just going to likeclassical guitar concerts, you
(07:55):
know just, I kind of what, whatyou would say is kind of like
what's like popular now with Idon't know, some of the, some of
the youth, some of the trendsthat I see.
It's like that's how I grew up,like that's how my home was.
You know just, you know just alittle new, agey and grungy.
(08:18):
I mean my dad, he, he did wellfor himself.
I'm just saying like thatgrunge style.
I guess you could say uh, in in.
You know, I remember playingwith ouija boards when I was in
the coffee shop like young, andnobody stopped me.
So I don't know, I just it'skind of a free-for-all.
You know, um, but there werestill, like I would say,
(08:43):
christian values that were stillthere in the home, but as far
as, like, the understanding ofwho God is, doctrines of grace,
that was definitely not a beliefin my home.
So, again, I say all that tosay I did not grow up believing
or being taught from a Christianperspective.
And I say all that to say I didnot grow up believing or being
taught from a Christianperspective.
(09:04):
However, when I was little, Ialways, like, was very
infatuated with God.
I always thought about Him alot.
I remember, you know, justbeing in the back of the car and
looking up out the back of thewindow at night, when I could
see the stars and just likereally dreaming about Him and
thinking about Him.
And I could perceive see thestars and just like really
(09:26):
dreaming about him and thinkingabout him and I could perceive
in the stars.
It reminds me in the in thepsalms, whenever it says you
know the heavens declare the.
You know his majesty.
I could absolutely perceive thatGod was real, he's powerful and
he's loving.
Um, I knew that about him at ayoung age, but that's about all
(09:49):
I knew.
But, you know, I think I had apretty good childhood.
The only thing I would sayreally hurt me was, you know, my
mom was married several timesand so I mean it was a traumatic
(10:15):
, I think, looking back on it,it is a traumatic experience to
feel like you're constantlylosing your mom to a man that
may or may not care about you.
You know now my adopted father.
He did adopt me and he stilltakes that very seriously to
this day.
He's still not a believer, buthe still takes that role in my
(10:36):
life very seriously, which I'mvery grateful for.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Did your mom and your stepdad or your adopted dad?
Did they end up splitting up?
They did, and she remarriedafter that.
She did yes, so you had kind ofthe now.
Did you ever know yourbiological father at all?
No, so you had that missinglink know yeah, missing.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
well, she had married when I was three and I loved
him very much and so when theydivorced, I know I mourned and
grieved.
And then when she got marriedto my adopted father, I was very
angry because it went from likeI was very angry because it
(11:24):
went from like this, but I meanno disrespect to my parents at
all, to my adopted father, soI'm very grateful for him, but I
think he would not deny thefact that he was very strict,
very, very strict.
It's like a Jew from the BronxOK, he's very, very strict.
I got a D on my report cardlike Like I lost every privilege
(11:47):
, down to eating sweets, youknow, if I brought a D home
period, I mean it was, even ifit was a test I was grounded for
from everything you know.
So it went from like like a,almost like a free, a free
feeling, loving atmosphere toalmost like this uh, cold, rigid
atmosphere and that wasdevastating to me and I think it
(12:13):
affected me a lot more than Iever gave it credit.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
um, absolutely because you don't.
You don't have any way toarticulate those feelings.
As a child, Right, right.
We don't have that capabilityuntil we're grown to really even
understand that Right.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Right and I think you know you look back on how your
parents parented and they didthe best they could with what
they knew.
You know I mean he, he didn'thave a loving home either, so he
parented the way, the only wayhe knew to parent at the time.
And my mom's the same way.
I mean she, she's a very loving, nurturing, doting mother.
(12:57):
I mean she was, she was a verygood mom.
But still, the decisions ofadults can still hurt children
and I think it just provoked alot of anger inside of me.
I started to rebel very, veryyoung, at 12.
I started to rebel very, veryyoung, sneaking out, stealing
(13:21):
the car, messing around withboys and using drugs by the time
I was 13 and 14 years old, youknow taking pills, cocaine,
ecstasy, things like that andyou know it wasn't really cool.
(13:45):
You know the friends that I wasgrowing up with and had the
friends that I had.
You know they didn't reallystick around and so that was the
.
So I found other friends andstarted hanging out with
actually much older people,which you know I look back on.
(14:06):
Like some of the people that Ihung out with, I'm like, oh my
gosh, you were like 40 hangingout with, like high schoolers,
like what were you doing?
But I started using very earlyand started becoming sexually
active by the time I was 14.
14.
(14:30):
And, um, my mom and my adoptedfather they actually, I would
say that they ended up divorcingbecause they couldn't agree on
how to handle my rebellion.
Wow, um, I was sent todifferent group homes.
Um, I went, I was sent to achildren's home that I actually
ran away from because they justI was out of control, they
(14:51):
didn't know what to do with me,and so that was almost like an
attempt to save me.
It wasn't.
I don't look back at that andthink, oh my gosh, they hated me
.
I don't blame them.
I mean, they didn't know whatto do, and so they did the best
that they could.
I saw every counselor, everypsychiatrist.
I was on medication.
(15:14):
I was on juvenile probation.
I was in first time.
I went to juvenile detention Ithink I was 15 years old for
about 17 days, but I stayed onprobation.
My entire adolescence, I wouldsay I mean my entire teenage
years, was spent with a curfew,with a probation officer, with
(15:35):
someone to answer to, and so itactually took me a while to to
not feel like I have to lookover my shoulder or explain my
life to somebody, because I wasso used to that that was
actually something I had to getused to.
(15:56):
So, yeah, I mean just, Iexperienced a lot of adult
things at a very young age andwhen I became sexually active at
14, I ended up getting pregnantwhen I was 15.
And I was encouraged by theadults in my life to get an
abortion and, to be honest withyou at the time I treated it
(16:23):
very transactionally.
I treated it verytransactionally.
I didn't think too deeply aboutit.
I was more concerned about myboyfriend at the time.
What people thought about megetting back out there and
partying, feeling good, justvery self-centered, and so, you
(16:48):
know, getting going in andgetting that abortion.
I remember leaving and justthinking, treating it as if it
was just a medical procedure,but there was still something
that felt dirty about it.
It still felt very dirty, but Iwould say I spiraled after that
because it was just like alevel of dirty that I felt that
(17:10):
it's like, okay, I've kind ofcrossed this line, this level of
dirty you know, wow, did yourparents know about this?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Mm-hmm.
So they were aware ofeverything that was going on.
Mm-hmm, so they were aware ofeverything that was going on.
That had to be a very hardthing, that you'd been rebelling
for a couple of years and thenit was like you're 15 and
pregnant.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, you know my, my parents now are very
conservative, I would say verypro-life.
At the time they weren't though.
I mean it was, I think my momparticularly you know she was
not in a relationship with theLord, she was in survival mode
(17:52):
with me and I think she was verymuch in a similar place as I
was is just, like you know, justmaking decisions out of utter
survival mode, you know, and soI, you know she did encourage me
to get that, so, but I mean,she has completely changed her
(18:16):
mind about abortion now.
Um, yeah, and it's veryremorseful that she encouraged
me in that direction.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
What was that like for you to have an abortion and
to go through that experience.
You know, did anybody go withyou?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
My mom went with me.
My boyfriend at the time didnot, and I remember calling him
afterwards and it was just likenothing even happened.
You know, I felt like I feellike everybody just kind of,
even his mom included, just andshe actually blamed me for being
pregnant, like she, she, she'slike it's only one person is
(19:00):
involved in that process one totango, you know.
But she, I remember her blamingme and I'm I'm not mad at her
or anything like that, butthat's just what I remember.
Yeah and um you know, I thinkeverybody was just emotionally
spent from all the drama of ourrelationship, from us using
drugs and being crazy and wild.
(19:21):
I think everybody's just tiredof us and sick of the
relationship and just did notwant anything keeping us
together.
And so I think you know his mom, she's probably just really
tired of me.
So I don't blame her there.
But, to be honest with you, Iwas numb, I was so numb, I was
(19:43):
numb, I was so numb.
But there is a deep, dark, dark,horrific wound that happens to
a person, and I think that inour society we have become so
desensitized to the realities ofwhat abortion actually is that
(20:06):
our soul and our spirit know,but our mind is not connected to
it.
And so there's actually justthis disconnect where there's
this, this deep guilt thatpeople I think a lot of people
are walking around with who havehad an abortion, but their mind
doesn't know what that guilt iscoming from, because they do
(20:29):
not deem abortion as evil.
Because they're, becausethey're blind around with all
kinds of issues because of thescarring that abortion has left
on their soul, but their mindwon't even acknowledge that it
(20:52):
was evil.
Wow, and I think that that'skind of that's where I was at.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, yeah, cause you mentioned that you spiraled
after this, you and I hadchatted a little bit about this
and that it seems to be arecurring theme with many women
who have had abortions.
You know this is part of yourstory too, and other women that
I know have communicated withyou that or that.
You know I've been in thosecircles that it can lead to
substance abuse because of thedeep pain and guilt that comes
(21:29):
from.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Absolutely.
I mean I know women who thinkthat they've committed the
unpardonable sin from having anabortion.
I know several women personallythat either had a complete
mental breakdown and becamesuicidal after having an
abortion or that's where theiraddiction started was after
(21:51):
having an abortion.
And I mean I know very specificpeople that this has happened
to and I don't think that thecorrelation between the two is
addressed enough.
I don't think there's beenenough conversation.
You know the secular world, theliberal world, the pro-choice
movement wants to treat abortionas a good thing and to help the
(22:15):
mental health of women, and Ithink that that is such a naive,
intellectually dishonestposition because there's no way
that death brings healing to awoman.
And I would like to find astudy or for someone to do a
study on the correlation betweenthe two, but I don't know of
(22:39):
any numbers off the top of myhead, but I do know personally
several women where that was thepivotal moment for them in
their either mental breakdown ortheir very beginning point of
their addiction journey.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, you know, I'm very grateful for actually
social media tools likeInstagram, that we have
liveactionorg on Instagram nowand Lila Rose and you know a
bunch of different women thathave been speaking up about this
, that have been speaking upabout this, because I think that
(23:18):
you're right that there is this.
There's this battle to convinceteenagers that abortion is a
medical procedure and that it'shealth care, women's health care
.
But when you actually watch avideo about what happens during
an abortion or learn about thefact that life begins at
(23:40):
conception, it changes the game.
And I'll be honest with you, Iwas one of those people for a
long time that said, well, I'mpro-life and I would never get
an abortion.
But whatever people are goingto do, they're going to do life
and I would never get anabortion, but whatever people
are going to do, they're goingto do.
And over time it was justbecause I was naive, I didn't
know what was actually happeningduring an abortion and we
(24:02):
didn't have the internet when Iwas a kid sort of did, but I was
at the beginning stages of theAOL dial-up and all that stuff.
I remember it wasn't readilyavailable like it is today, and
I think that that's one of thepositives of social media and
the internet is exposing what'sreally going on behind closed
(24:25):
doors, that it's not just take apill and flush your uterus out.
It's nothing but a clump ofcells.
So something that also totallychanged my perspective and I
actually did share this on thepodcast quite a while ago is I
had a miscarriage and I was onlymy guess is about six or seven
weeks pregnant and I actuallypassed the baby and it was the
(24:51):
size of a grain of rice but hadalready developed a nose and
ears and it had a cord anumbilical cord and a tiny
placenta at six weeks andobviously having a miscarriage
is not a fun thing, right?
(25:13):
You get all excited when youfind out out.
You see those two lines andthen they start getting lighter
and that's not fun.
But when I found this baby inmy pad it was such a life
changing moment to say and liketo reconfirm life and that it is
building itself.
(25:33):
You know, through that process.
So I'm, I'm grateful for you,know you sharing your experience
with this to expose that it'snot all cupcakes and roses and
you know you're, you're sweepingaway all your troubles.
It can lead to realpsychological damage and pain?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Oh, totally.
And can I tell you somethingelse?
That's kind of weird andtwisted about the whole thing,
so, and I'm skipping a lot rightnow but I'll get to some of it.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
But just on the abortion piece for many, many
years.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I probably could have gone to a psychiatrist
somewhere and been diagnosedwith like obsessive thoughts,
ocd type things, right.
I mean I really struggled withand I think it was drug induced
um from like bad trips onmushrooms and things like that.
I mean some of these thoughtsnever even began to enter my
mind until I took some of thedrugs that I took and then I
(26:34):
dealt with ongoing mentaltorture for a long time.
God has delivered me, praiseGod.
But for the longest time, evenas a Christian, I struggled with
this thought, with this feelingthat I had killed someone and
(26:54):
didn't remember doing it, and ittormented me.
When I say it tormented me, itwould keep me up.
But I related it to and this isas a Christian, because I
became pro-life all theconservative positions.
Once I became a Christian I tookall conservative positions
right.
So intellectually I agree,positions right.
(27:18):
So intellectually I agreeAbortion is evil at this point,
but still not relating to mineas what had actually happened.
And I spent years with thisharassing thought I've killed
someone, I don't remember doingit and what I thought it was is.
I've spent so much time in ablackout.
I could have done somethinghorrible and I don't even
remember doing it and that'swhat I thought, that's why, and
(27:39):
so I kind of I surrendered allthe years that I don't remember,
you know.
But I mean I even went to likelooking up news stories Like has
anybody ever like in placesthat I used to live, has anybody
ever been like hit by a drunkdriver and nobody ever found out
who it was, or something?
I mean I was like obsessivelyand because I kind of, if I were
(28:01):
going to be like I said, if Iwere going to be diagnosed with
something clinical, I canunderstand like the OCD mind,
the, the obsessive thoughts, theruminating the, you know, and I
think that that's just demonicharassment.
Now I mean I really do, Nowthat I know, I've understood
kind of where some of that comesfrom.
But I never pinned down that Ihad not grieved and mourned my
(28:27):
abortion.
I was brushing it off tosomething else.
I mean that's how transactional, that's how disconnected I was
from the abortion as a Christian, pro-life Christian, several
(28:49):
years into being a Christian,and God, in His perfect timing,
removed that veil from me.
What.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I was going to ask is how did the veil drop for that?
How was that revealed?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
It was in time because he's very gentle.
But grief is a strange thing.
I mean now I can't hardly getthrough talking about it without
tears coming.
But I've made the promise Iwill never forget him again and
I believe God's revealed to me.
I was a boy, I was very, veryyoung in my pregnancy, so
(29:24):
there's no way I could haveknown anything.
I mean, I was, you know, sixweeks or something.
But I forgot him once.
I will never forget him againis my vow in his life.
It means something, it has valueand it has purpose and it has
(29:45):
totally motivated me to see thehorrors of abortion.
There is no exception.
There's no exception.
I mean I hated abortion before.
I hate it even more now.
You know, I was pro-life when Ibecame a Christian and I thought
I mean I just had so much zealbecause, logically, I'm like,
I'm just like thinking likelogically, like y'all, it's
(30:07):
murder, you know, and still notconnected to my own, totally
disconnected.
But when God removed that veilwas an adult, I had been a
christian for a while and um,the actually the floodgates more
(30:28):
so open, I would say justwithin a year ago.
Wow, yeah, and I've even becomemore pro-life as I've become an
adult and things like that, butto actually grieve and mourn
the blood that was on my ownhands and to actually recognize
what the sin I had committed, ofmy own child and my child's
(30:54):
blood being on my hand.
It's not a condemnation thought.
It's not a condemnation thought, it's not a tormenting thought,
it is not from the enemy, it istruly from the Lord for me to
actually grieve this thinginside of me that has been there
ever since.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
That has caused a lot of mental anguish and confusion
and distortion and I didn'teven connect it to that yeah, um
, I know it reminds me of howyou know I've this is something
I talk about sometimes that ourminds are like computers and we
(31:35):
store all these files and wehave our kind of conscious
thoughts and we have oursubconscious thoughts, and I
think that sometimes, whensomething is so painful, it's
like we put it in the back.
You know, we put it in a folderinside of a folder, inside of
another folder, and it's there,but we don't.
That's our subconscious right.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
It's like it's in the back and it sounds like you
have had multiple yeah it soundslike it was there.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
No, it's okay, it was there, but your, your mind,
didn't want to open the file youknow, it didn't, it didn't want
to open the folder that it wasin painful.
It was too painful.
But then there was anotherpiece of you that was saying
maybe it was the enemy, like yousaid.
You know you've killed someone.
(32:25):
You've killed someone and he'sprobably the one that talked you
into it in the first place.
That's the thing that's so sickabout the enemy is the things
that he talks us into doing andthen uses it to torture us later
.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I know, I know, I know he hates us.
He hates humans because we'rein, we're creating the image of
god.
That's why he hates us.
Whenever he looks at a humanbeing, he's reminded of his
worst enemy.
But yes, I mean the enemy isall up in, like causing us to
stumble and fall and sin andthen wants to torment us with it
(33:00):
.
You're absolutely right and Iabsolutely believe that the
tormenting thoughts like what ifyou've killed someone and you
don't remember it?
I mean I had no evidence that Ihad.
I mean I was thinking horrificLike what if I?
You know, I mean it's insanelike the thoughts that I would
actually entertain and not, Imean, what most people would
(33:22):
reasonably just say oh, that'sstupid.
I struggled, you know, puttingthoughts away.
I really did for a very longtime.
I don't care how ridiculous itwas.
If it crossed my mind, I wouldsit there and entertain it and I
thought that was just anotherone of those things.
But that one thing never wentaway and call it demonic the
(33:48):
subconscious mind.
I do think Satan was having aheyday.
But also the subconscious mindis trying to bring to the
forefront like there's somethinghere that needs to be dealt
with.
But God in his perfect time.
He helped me mature and helpedme grow in my faith and helped
me understand grace, and I thinkthat's when he really pulled
(34:12):
back the veil.
I was driving, I was on my wayto Nashville to meet with the
president of a college and theCEO of another organization
because they want to partnerwith Renew Clinic on something.
And I'm driving to Nashvilleand I just felt this grief
(34:36):
inside.
I'm like Lord, what is thatgrief?
And that's when it happened.
And I'm driving.
When I say I'm sobbing.
I mean I was grieving the lossof a child.
I was actually grieving in thatmoment, the loss of a child,
(34:57):
and I've needed to grieve thatever since it happened and I
never grieved it.
And I saw blood on my hands andthe Lord said hand this to me,
give this to me.
I've atoned for this kind ofthing and in my mentally,
(35:17):
spiritually, I handed the bloodover to him and then he reminded
me death doesn't no longer hasthe final say.
Death isn't the end anymore.
There's hope, like that's notthe final say of your story
anymore or of your child's storyanymore.
That's not the final say ofyour story anymore or of your
child's story anymore.
That's not the final say,because Christ lives and but
(35:41):
they were still grieving.
I pull up to the meeting.
I call my husband and I toldhim I can't stop crying, I'm
sobbing, I cannot stop crying,I'm grieving the abortion I had
when I was 15 years old and heprayed for me.
I was able to like pull myselftogether kind of like, put some
(36:04):
makeup on and walk in there.
I went to the bathroom.
I'm like Lord, please help mepull this together.
The president, I go and sitdown.
We're at a Mexican restaurant.
And I go and sit down.
We're at a Mexican restaurant,christian Brothers in Christ,
right, and we've all introducedeach other friendly.
And I feel like I'm such a fakeand phony at that point because
(36:26):
I was just weeping in theparking lot.
Now I'm like hi, I'm Sarah, youknow, like such a fake and
phony.
And then the president ofWilliamson College that's the
college, bless him.
He turned to me and he said so,how many children do you have?
(36:47):
And I started weeping.
I said okay, I got to telly'all something.
And I told them.
I sat there and I said the Lordhas, I've on my way here.
I've started grieving somethingI've never grieved before and
it was abortion that I had whenI was 15 years old and I'm
really grieving.
I feel like I have to vocalizethis to you all for me to even
(37:09):
move forward in this discussion.
They loved on me.
There was no condemnation atall.
You know, whenever people say,oh, the church is so judgmental
and all this stuff, I've zerojudgment at that table.
But I just felt nothing butlove and acceptance and um, so
(37:34):
yeah, that's when the Lorddecided to remove the veils.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It's amazing how he works, but I'm grateful that you
opened up to them.
It's good to hear that you werejust like you know what.
Here's what's really going on.
I think that that allows for alot of opportunity to to just be
real with people you know.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
But going back to the addictionside of things, I mean that
goes to show you that, as aChristian, I mean God will
continue to deliver us fromthings and heal us from things.
That you know there's no likemoment, that there's a moment of
salvation, but there's no likeokay, this is the moment that I
(38:21):
was all better you know, yeah,everything was resolved because
this was at least 20 years later.
Yes, yes, 20 years, more than 20years later, I'm 37.
This was like last year, solike 2021 years later.
Yeah, and that's when the Lorddecided to heal something from
(38:44):
when I was 15 years old and forme to grieve.
And so now my heart is verysensitive to the abortion I had,
but I will take that pain.
I will take that pain.
I'll take the grief that.
I do not ever want to be numbto that again or to forget my
child again.
(39:04):
I will never forget him again.
But, yes, when I was a teen,after that abortion at 15.
I definitely spun out verypromiscuous.
Gosh, I can't even begin totell you just the crazy things
that I did.
And you know, I almost found myidentity at some point.
(39:27):
And just doing the most drugs,doing the craziest things, and I
just wanted an identity.
And I thought, ok, this issomething I'm really good at.
I'm really good at, like beinga criminal and getting in fights
and using a wanted an identity.
And I thought, okay, this issomething I'm really good at.
I'm really good at, like, beinga criminal and getting in
fights and using a bunch ofdrugs.
So I guess I'm just gonna goall in, you know.
And so that's what I did, and Iended up I was incarcerated
(39:50):
quite a bit.
I can't even tell you how manytimes I've been arrested.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
What were you getting arrested for, just like
underage drinking or Stupidstuff?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, I mean stupid stuff, like primarily DUI, like
DUI, underage drinking,shoplifting, driving with a
revoked license you know juststupid stuff.
But after you get like eightdriving with a revoked license,
you know just stupid stuff.
But after you get like eightdriving with a revoked license,
they lock you up for a while.
(40:18):
It's like okay, no way.
Yeah, I mean it's stupid, butand I was a dumb criminal I
remember being at a party.
I was so dumb and this wasGod's grace in my, my life.
I was at a party and they wereall.
It was like a kegger orsomething like that.
(40:39):
I mean, who who hasn't donethat as a teenager?
Maybe some people.
But but I was at a party andeveryone had been drinking.
The cops came.
They're passing out underagedrinking tickets.
Everyone's gotten one.
He.
He said did I miss anyone?
And I raised my hand.
That's the kind of dumbcriminal I am.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
You're like give it to me man.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
I was like I didn't get one, Slap me with another
one.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, I didn't get one.
Don't leave me out.
That's funny.
Were you the only one who didthat?
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yes, and then I was like, oh, you know, just like me
, I was just like, wait, what Ijust do?
Um, just dumb, um.
So it was just stuff like that,but I mean, but it ended it.
I was constantly on probation,constantly had a curfew, um, I I
did like a 30 somesome stint injail, a 60-day, some stint in
(41:36):
jail, you know, 17-day,three-day.
You know, it was just a bunchof like smaller stints, a lot of
treatment in and out oftreatment, you know, a lot of
secular treatment.
And it was when I was in jailthat there was a prison ministry
(41:57):
and they brought the gospel.
And this time that I was in jail, this specific time, god just
got me to a very low, low place.
I had burned every bridge.
I had no dignity, noself-respect, no true friends
anymore, really no place to gobecause I couldn't live with my
(42:20):
mom and I had no home.
At that point, I mean, I reallyhad no place to go and I had no
one trusted me, no self-respect, no hope.
I mean I was at such a lowplace.
(42:41):
I was locked up in one Countyon probation, missing a court
date in another County for thesame charge, and so I'm like
terrified, I'm just, you know,I'm really going to get slapped
with a couple of years orsomething, have to go to prison,
(43:01):
which I thought I was going togo to prison.
And so my my heart was ripe toreceive the gospel.
And there were some these olderladies that came.
They were old, I I mean theywere old ladies and they came in
to bring the gospel to thewomen in new hanover county jail
(43:28):
in williamton, in uh uh,wilmington, north carolina, and
they told us about the womanwith the bleeding disorder and
they brought a shawl like torepresent Jesus's garment and
they invited all the women inthe prison to come and to touch
the hem of his garment to behealed.
(43:48):
And I just dove to that garment.
Mind you, I did not grow up ina Christian home, I didn't grow
up Christian, but I knew, rightthen and there, what they're
saying is true.
I believe Jesus can forgive me,I believe Jesus can deliver me,
I believe Jesus can help me.
And I just remembered justdiving and started weeping.
(44:10):
And then all these other womenstarted clinging to the hem of
this garment and sobbing.
It was like Pentecost, I mean,it was like just the Holy Spirit
just came upon these women inthis room.
I'm sure that those two oldwomen.
It was such a blessing to be apart of that and to facilitate
(44:31):
that.
I'm so grateful, though, andthat was the beginning of my
journey with Christ.
That's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Wow, what, what a blessing that those women were
there.
And what a moving.
Moving I don't know what theword is, but like the you know
what the story and the you knowhem of his garment, like it just
wow, I like have the chills.
That's very cool, yes, veryneat.
(45:03):
And so that was a turning pointfor you as you started on a new
journey.
And I'm curious because you andI have talked about spiritual
warfare a little bit.
You mentioned being demonizedearlier, but you also have
brought up a couple of thingsthat I've had some conversations
(45:25):
with other women who have had,who have been demonized before
and have used Ouija boards askids or have been exposed to
other potential doorways todarkness and things of that
nature over their youth andteenage years.
So I'm curious about thespiritual warfare side of things
(45:47):
in the spiritual realm.
Is that something that camelater?
Is that something that camelater in your walk with Christ
that you kind of started to seethe spiritual realm or
understand or feel it?
I know everyone has kind of adifferent take on the sensing of
(46:08):
the spiritual realm in a sense,but I'd love for you to just
kind of speak to that a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Sure.
So I don't think I really dealtwith my tormentors until I was
later in my walk with Christ andI think, okay, so I do think
that there's some doors thatopen specifically hallucinate,
(46:35):
hallucinate, hallucinating onmushrooms, I mean.
I remember there was one nightand I've done them several times
, but there was one night I feltlike I was stuck in a nightmare
for and I didn't feel normalfor about a month.
Um, it's the first time I everexperienced like derealization,
depersonalization, which is likefeeling like you're in a dream,
(46:57):
you know, questioning like iseverything around me real?
And it's really demonic,suggestion type stuff that if
you don't, if you do not knowthe Lord or if you don't have a
biblical worldview, you don'teven know how to respond to
these demonic suggestions.
And so these suggestions, Ithink, came to me for the first
(47:19):
time when I took mushrooms.
Um, what if everything aroundyou is fake?
What if you're dreaming?
What if this is just a videogame?
What if you know all thesehorrific thoughts which,
clinically, they call itderealization, dep,
depersonalization, which can bedrug-induced, it can be
trauma-induced, but I and Ithink that there is something to
(47:43):
that and I also think that wemake ourselves vulnerable to
spiritual attack and to demonicsuggestions.
That's what I call it.
I call it a demonic suggestionbecause all the all the devil
really has to do sometimes isjust suggest something to
torment us.
You know, suggest, like to posea question that is either
(48:06):
circular or is impossible toanswer, or, you know, I can get
into that in a second, butthat's the first.
I think that that's when a doorreally opened for me was
tripping on mushrooms, smokingweed, stuff like that.
I just did not handle thatstuff well, I never really
(48:30):
enjoyed it, and there's a reasonfor that.
I mean, it just opened my mindup to questions, existential
questions, that I just didn'thave the answers to, was a
(48:55):
Christian.
Anytime I got overwhelmedbecause I was either a baby
Christian or still didn't havethe apologetic wit to me to be
able to answer some of the youknow, cunning and baffling,
demonic suggestions that wouldcome my way.
Anytime I got stressed out oroverwhelmed, those thoughts
would come back, and so thatwent on throughout my my adult
life.
Really, I would just, you know,just having phobias and you
(49:22):
know, clinically you can, youcan call, call it, you know
certain things, but I know thatthese were just tormentors that
I never really confronted faceto face or, you know,
spiritually, until I was more ofa mature believer and I was
(49:46):
never really taught aboutspiritual warfare.
I didn't really understand it.
It was very confusing but itactually helped me a lot when I
understood what actually washappening.
Because you know to know thatnot every thought that goes
through your head is from you.
You know, like praise God, youknow Awesome.
(50:10):
So I'm not blaspheming.
You know it's like no, that's ablasphemous thought, that's
being that you're beingtormented with.
You know, but I was, I was man,I struggled big time with
things like that and you know.
But also having an abortion,that was an open door to demonic
torment, I mean, and again, Ididn't even know that's where it
(50:33):
was coming from.
It's like we have all thesewounds to our souls and all
these open doors and you know,so many adults and even
Christians are, you know,walking around thinking they
have some kind of disorder, whenit's like Christ can heal those
things.
And I'm not saying every singleissue that people have.
(50:54):
I know that there are actuallysome physical ailments that
people can have that can, thatcan cause, you know, severe
anxiety and depression.
I mean, if your thyroid's outof whack.
It can.
People can get suicidal.
I mean truly your, your body.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Or if you take birth control.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah, I mean medication, absolutely yeah, and
so it's not always demonic.
I don't want people to hearthat and think that's what I'm
saying, but for me personally, Ido think it's a combination of
how my brain works and havingopen doors and being demonically
(51:31):
harassed for a while.
But what was your originalquestion?
Speaker 1 (51:36):
I'm so sorry.
No, I just wanted you to talkmore about that because I think
that it's something that's nottalked about enough in the
church.
But here's the thing I grew upin the church, grew up in the
church, and even I did not havean understanding or talk about
(51:58):
spiritual warfare until the pastfew years, and so I don't think
it's the kind of thing thatwe're just like chit-chatting
about on Sundays or in Sundayschool or whatever the case
might be, and that's why I wantto have these conversations, so
that, if someone hasn't heardabout it before, now you have,
(52:18):
and now you can become moreaware that the enemy does
whisper to us and he does try toinfluence us, and he does.
It's interesting that you'reusing the word, you know,
demonic influence.
I think that's a good way ofcommunicating about it.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Or suggestion, or suggestion.
That's what you said.
Suggestion yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Um, one of the first series that I did on this
podcast with my sister was onspiritual warfare and kind of
talking about where the roots ofspiritual warfare come from,
with the Nephilim and theWatchers and all that, and we
had a discussion back then aboutoppression versus possession.
(53:04):
But since then my opinion haskind of shifted a little bit.
It's not that I don't want toget into the semantics of it
necessarily, but I've recentlyheard somebody use the word
demonized to say that, you know,from a biblical perspective the
word translates most similarlyto being demonized, which I
(53:28):
think is similar to what you'resaying, where you're being
influenced by demons, you'rebeing harassed by them, they're
attacking you in a sense.
They're demonizing you, they'rebothering you.
And I think that that's yeah,and I kind of resonated with
that explanation of it becausethat makes a lot of sense when I
(53:51):
think about times in my life.
It's like a gnat that is justcoming at you, but in a really
dark and evil way, and reallytwisted, psychologically twisted
way.
Absolutely In a manipulativeand horrific way.
Yeah, totally.
I mean, it's different fordifferent people, right, for
some people it may be suicidalstuff, which is the darkest of
(54:15):
dark.
But for other people and for alot of men that struggle with
things like pornography, it'sthat little whisper of nobody's
going to know.
Yeah, just just just do it,it's not, it's not really
hurting anybody, just do it,it's not, it's not really
hurting anybody.
Right, you know that it'salmost like the devil on one
(54:36):
shoulder and the you know theangel on the other.
Like which one are you going tolisten to?
And it's just an interestingthing.
But my original question wasjust kind of when, when that was
opened up for you?
Because I think that in myexperience and from the stories
that I've heard so far, it's notlike we all just wake up to
(54:56):
this with spiritual warfare as,like little children, we're not
able to understand or comprehendit, and then even as new
believers, it can be very hard.
It's not until many people havebeen spiritually attacked that
sometimes they recognize it thenat their lowest, or other
people recognize it during anattack, like I shared the story
(55:20):
of my son's birth with you andit's on the podcast all the
details, but that was a veryspecific attack that I
experienced in my life and therewas a couple other times where
I was able to, you know, kind ofrecognize it in the moment.
But it's just something forbelievers and, of course,
(55:40):
non-believers to be aware of andto be cognizant about that.
We are in a spiritual realm andthere are entities that want to
destroy us and destroy ourmarriages, our children, our
lives.
Like you said at the beginningof this, the enemy hates humans,
(56:03):
so he's going to do anything hecan to corrupt us.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
He hates us, like absolutely hates us.
He hates us Like absolutelyhates us, and he's actually the
enemy, is actually convinced.
You know, people like, forexample, satanist.
He's convinced them that he'sactually the good guy and we've
all been to see, I mean, it'sjust, it's so twisted, you know
and that he's actually theliberator of mankind.
(56:30):
You know, it's just, it's sopsychologically twisted and
unless people this is the thingis unless people understand how
Satan works you don't want toget so infatuated with demons
and Satan that that's all youthink about.
However, you need to also knowhow your enemy operates.
You've got to know his tactics.
You've got to know because histactics you've got to know,
(56:53):
because that's how I mean.
If you know how the enemyoperates, then you can identify.
Oh, I see what's happening here.
You know, this is just, this isjust a demonic attack or this
is like, this is evil.
You know, there are so manytimes that, like I had thoughts
going through my head that Ithought it was just me, you know
(57:15):
, and I'd either feel ashamed ofit or I would think it came
from my heart, and then I'd say,oh, my gosh, lord forgive me,
but the Lord kind of showed me,like when it comes to like
invasive thoughts.
It's kind of like I'm standingand he I don't know why this is
like.
The visual I got is likestanding outside and there's a
street and on the other side ofthe street there's somebody
(57:36):
standing on a sidewalk just likescreaming out explicits, right,
blaspheming, god, cussing,whatever.
I'm not sinning because I canhear it.
You know, I didn't ask to hearit, I don't want to hear it and
you know, but I'm not sinningbecause I can hear it.
I don't want to hear it and youknow, but I'm not sinning
because I can hear it.
And that's the same thing withlike invasive thoughts sometimes
is I don't think so much thatit's not always just the
(58:01):
invasive thought that'stormenting, it's people thinking
that it's them that'stormenting People thinking that
the thought is actuallyoriginating from them.
But if we can recognize thatthere are invasive thoughts and
you're not sinning just becauseyou simply hear it or experience
the thought, you know that initself dismantles the whole
(58:28):
thing.
Because I think Satan's tacticis for us to feel unnecessary
shame and guilt for things wehaven't even done sometimes and
so that was the way that I washarassed was invasive thoughts
For whenever it got really bad.
For me, it was invasivethoughts.
I do not believe that a true,genuine believer, like a
(58:50):
Christian, who's indwelled withthe Holy Spirit, can be fully,
full-on possessed by Satan.
I do not believe that a true,genuine believer, like a
Christian, who's indwelled withthe Holy Spirit, can be fully,
full on possessed by Satan.
I do not believe that's trueBecause Jesus is the strong man
who binds up the other, whobinds up the robber in the house
(59:10):
and actually, you know, clinton, jesus is.
This is the strong man.
I'm chopping up this scriptureright now.
I don't even know what I'mtrying to say but it's, it's
1030.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
So it's my fault for for making you do this in the
middle of the night.
Speaker 2 (59:28):
Oh my gosh, my words are like chopped up.
But Jesus is the strong man andI don't think that any person
indwelt with the Holy Spiritpersonally can be fully taken
over by Satan.
I do not believe that at all.
But we can be harassed andthere's different ways.
(59:49):
We all have kind of like akryptonite, so like Satan, has
been studying humans forthousands of years and he's much
smarter than we are Not smarterthan God, but smarter than
people.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
At times more strategic he's a lot older yeah,
a lot older.
More cunning and been watchingour families for generations,
Right so knows ourvulnerabilities and what can
hook us.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
But God can still give us victory, even over that
ancient serpent.
You know, even though we'veonly been on this earth 37, 38
years.
You know we don't know the insand outs of our family history,
like some of the.
You know some of the unseenrealm knows, of the unseen realm
(01:00:36):
knows.
But God still gives us victory,even in our weakness and our
frailty and even in ourfoolishness.
I mean he can give us victoryand he's given me victory, a
tremendous victory.
Some of the things I've beenharassed with, I mean, by God's
grace, I did not struggle todaythe way I used to struggle
(01:00:57):
mentally with some of thesethings from when I opened doors,
from whenever I was younger,and I do agree that that is a
thing Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
It takes time.
It reminds me of the saying inthat song tell the devil no, not
today.
Yeah, and that is kind of howit is right.
When he comes after us and he'sgot his whispers and his things
that he's trying to lead us offthe path with.
And I do agree with what yousaid about when the Holy Spirit
is in us and dwelling with usand it's kind of there's the
(01:01:30):
influence or the pressure couldbe there.
But as long as we're allowingthe Lord to reside in our hearts
, with us, we have thatprotection.
And I think that that's why alot of times when believers or
Christians are experiencing alot of this stuff, I tend to
(01:01:55):
notice it's when they're intheir lukewarm state, right,
they're like off the path doingtheir own thing, and then all
this crazy stuff starts tohappen and it's almost like it's
not like they've lost theirbelief in God, but they've
kicked the Holy Spirit out oftheir heart for that period of
(01:02:15):
time.
I don't know.
It's interesting to kind of seethe struggles of some believers
over the years that I'vepersonally known.
It's like I know they believein God, years that I've
personally known.
It's like I know they believein God, but they're just being
pulled away and pulled off thepath.
(01:02:38):
And yeah, I just think thatit's important for us to all
recognize the spiritual realmfor what it is, expose it,
expose the enemy, like you said,just have an awareness and not
that it's all the time.
Again, like you said, itshouldn't be our obsession.
When I first started studyingspiritual warfare, it actually
really freaked my husband out.
(01:02:59):
He was like what are yougetting into?
What is this about?
And it really scared him.
But I used to tease him.
I'd be like what's the matter?
Am I stirring up your demons?
Am I making them mad?
I'd be like what's the matter?
Am I stirring up your demons?
Am I making them mad?
But there is a side to thatthat we have to own each of our
(01:03:19):
own.
I had to own my own things thatI was allowing the enemy to
influence me on and to kind ofspeak over me, and yeah.
So anyway, I think this is,this was a good little sidebar
for us to have.
Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah, well, I mean, we have the flesh, too, that
we're battling our flesh.
We have Satan and we have theworld, and it's all three, you
know.
So some it's a combination ofall three and you know, I don't
think that a genuine believercan, you know, make themselves
(01:03:55):
not be sealed or remove the HolySpirit from them.
I don't think the Bible saysthat he is faithful.
He will finish what he hasstarted Now.
Does he allow dark nights ofthe soul?
Absolutely?
Will he even allow, you know, ademonic harassment, because
(01:04:20):
he's sovereign?
I mean, he's got he does allowit, I mean, but it's not to harm
us.
It would be to deliver us,because, if there's any point at
which Satan can, or to humbleus, you know, paul talks about
his, his thorn in the flesh, andit was.
(01:04:43):
He called it a harassingmessenger from Satan and he
begged the Lord to remove it.
I mean, I had actually resolvedin my mind for several years
that not several years, butseveral months, because I went
through a really hard time backin 2018 with this kind of stuff.
I had resolved in my mind okay,maybe this is just a thorn in
(01:05:05):
my flesh to keep me humble,because that's what the Holy
Spirit told Paul is you know,when you're weak, I'm strong,
like my grace is sufficient foryou.
And the Lord did not removethat thorn, which Paul said was
a harassing messenger from Satan.
And that thorn was there tokeep Paul humble.
(01:05:28):
And you know, people want tosay that the thorn could have
been some kind of physicalailment, but Paul literally said
it was a harassing messengerfrom Satan and God allowed it.
Well, look at Job.
Yeah, look at Job.
Job was tortured for life.
Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Yes, yeah, I mean, and God allowed that.
Mm-hmm, because I mean, and Godallowed that, because I mean,
(01:06:16):
yeah, it just.
It was further evidence ofhuman choice, though, which was
cool in the end, that eventhrough his torture, he wasn't
cursing God or denying him.
He stuck with the Lord, and Ithink that that's such a
powerful example for us toobserve and to live by is like
even with being tormented, henever gave up God and God didn't
give up on him.
Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
He never gave up God and God didn't give up on him.
Right, if the breakdown happens, whether it's because of a
physical mental breakdown orit's a demonic attack or
unresolved trauma whatever labelyou want to put on it God is
sovereign, he allows it and youknow, sometimes, I know, for me
(01:06:53):
there's been a treasure on theother side.
I wouldn't have gotten anyother way and I'm grateful for
some of those times Nevergrateful for a demonic attack,
don't get me wrong but thespiritual lessons that can come.
(01:07:13):
Because whenever we cling toChrist in those vulnerable
moments, because we're weak,we're flesh, we can't fight the
spiritual realm in our ownstrength.
Whenever we are under spiritualattack, demonic harassment,
whatever, that puts us in a veryvulnerable place to truly throw
ourselves on christ and we'revery, you know, we're reliant
(01:07:35):
upon him in those moments,unlike, you know, other times in
our life when we're notexperiencing that.
And then so, whenever we're inthat place of relying on him at
such a vulnerable place, itteaches deep, teaches us very
deep spiritual realities that weprobably wouldn't learn
otherwise.
You know, you have some giantsof the faith, like John Bunyan,
(01:07:57):
who wrote Pilgrim's Progress,and if you read his spiritual
autobiography Grace Abounding tothe Chief of Sinners.
He struggled.
It brought me so much comfortwhen I read that because I mean,
he struggled a lot with thatobsessive thinking and thought
that he had lost his salvationand the harassments of Satan and
just the mental battle thatwent on for years.
(01:08:18):
And God was training him duringthat time in holiness and was
preparing him for ministry.
And his ministry is stillaffecting the church centuries
later and I think god used andmolded him through his, his dark
(01:08:38):
nights of the soul from theharassments of satan.
Nobody wants to go through that.
It's not fun, for there's noquestion it's.
It can be awful, um, but itteaches us to endure in a way
that I don't know that manyother things can, because that
that's a battle that can only befought by throwing ourselves on
(01:09:00):
Christ.
Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Absolutely.
I was joking around.
At the end of the year I keptseeing all these memes that were
like Lord, as we're going intothis next year, could you send
me some of the easy stuff?
No more of your hard battles,that kind of stuff going around
and it was like all this contentwas being thrown at me that
(01:09:23):
said you're not going to learngrace or you're not going to
learn forgiveness unless you gothrough all these hard things.
And it can be, it can suck, itcould really suck to get thrown
this stuff because we, you know,we're, we're human and it's not
an easy thing, but we areforged in the fire.
(01:09:44):
We are forged when we have togo through these hard times and
these hard things, but God isthere to walk through it with us
and to pull us out of the otherside.
And that's what I love aboutyour testimony so much is that
you went through so many yearsof such just pain and things
(01:10:08):
that sucked I'll just use thatword again no, just not great
pain, no other word for it.
Yeah, and now where you are in,the place that you're in and the
position that you're in, withwhat you're doing with your life
you know, working with RenewClinic, which we're going to
talk about later on it's just anincredible thing and an example
(01:10:32):
that no one is too far gone, noone.
There's no one that cannot besaved by the blood of Jesus.
You know he's there for usthrough our struggles and
through our heartbreak andhardships and hard times and all
of that hard times and all ofthat for us.
(01:10:56):
So, that said, is thereanything else you wanted to
either share about yourtestimony or kind of share, as
we're wrapping up this episode?
Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
I think the last piece I want to include is the
beginning of my walk with Christwas in that jail and he began
to give me a hunger for his word.
I remember I felt more freeincarcerated in that jail than
I'd ever felt outside of jail.
And it's not because I was injail, it's because I knew Jesus
(01:11:27):
Like I, finally, like my facehas been turned to him.
But it wasn't until after I gotout, where, if there was like a
born again experience thatpeople had I know not everybody
has like it's not like a bigfirecracker experience for
everybody, but for me it was Iwas by myself in my room and I
(01:11:51):
was praying.
I had gotten out of jail, I wasin my room and all of a sudden
I saw him, not with my, and hislove and his forgiveness was
(01:12:15):
poured into my heart in a waythat I will never forget and it
was overwhelming.
I was weeping, but with joy.
I had never had that beforeever and it was just like
pouring into me and I didn'tknow how else to express that.
(01:12:36):
And so I found like an oldsheet and I cut it in like just
like a rectangular shape, andthen my mom, actually when I was
17,.
My mom, I grew up an only child, but my mom had my brother when
I was 17 years old and so atthe time I was like 18 when this
(01:12:58):
happened and I found some ofhis Crayola paints spirit, which
was the erected cross handscoming up from the flames and
the blood, like touching thehands, like atoning, like people
, like reaching up to him anyway, but that I painted, filled
(01:13:24):
with the spirit of God in a wayI'd never been filled before,
and I still have that to thisday, that piece of cloth that I
mean I'm not an artist at all,but I will I still have.
And there was a period of time Idoubted my salvation and that
piece of cloth was a greatcomfort to me.
(01:13:46):
And so and he's been teachingme and walking with me ever
since.
He has never left me, he'snever forsaken me.
I thought that I have pushedmyself over the ledge of
salvation and lost it before andwent through a very dark time
and I have sinned horrificallyas a Christian, but he has never
(01:14:12):
left me, he's never forsaken me.
And I'm not saying it's okay todo those things, but I am just
attesting to His faithfulness.
To finish what he said he wasgoing to what he has started and
that nothing can pluck us outof His hand and we still should
work out our salvation with fearand trembling.
I'm not dismissing that at all.
(01:14:35):
I'm seriously just attesting tohis faithfulness.
He has been so faithful in mylife.
Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Amazing.
That's beautiful, Sarah.
I love it.
Thank you so much for sharingyour testimony and talking about
all these things with me.
Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
Yeah, thanks for having me Awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
Well, if you are looking to find Sarah outside of
the podcast, sarah can be found.
Actually, you have a podcast.
Yeah, yes, the Waging Warpodcast.
I will link in the show notes alink to your YouTube channel
and all that good stuff.
And Sarah can also be found atRenewKnoxvillecom R-E-N-E W.
(01:15:20):
Any other resources that youwant me to throw out there
channels.
Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
We're a new clinic Knoxville.
That's where you can kind ofsee the podcast, the video.
But you can download the WagingWar podcast on any podcast
platform Awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
I love it Well.
Thank you, sarah, for beinghere.
Thank you everyone for tuningin, being on this journey,
thanks for having me.
Yeah, this has been awesome andmore to chat about too.
So everybody stay tuned.
If you would like to followalong outside the podcast, be
sure to join the mission onInstagram, facebook, youtube, at
(01:16:03):
the Radiant Mission.
And today we are going to closewith one of Sarah's favorite
verses, which is 1 John 5,verses 20 through 21.
We know that the Son of God hascome and has given us
understanding so that we mayknow Him, who is true, and we
are in Him, who is true, bybeing in His Son, jesus Christ.
(01:16:24):
So he is the true God andeternal life.
Dear children, keep yourselvesfrom idols.
We are wishing you a radiantweek and we'll see you next time
.
Bye, everyone.
Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission podcast.
My name is Rebecca Toomey andwe are on a mission to encourage
and inspire you as you'renavigating through your life and
with your relationship withChrist.
We've been in a series on beingcountercultural in a secular
world and today I welcome a veryspecial guest.
Her name is Sarah Keel and sheis a wife, mom, lover of Jesus
(00:54):
and is the executive director atRenew Clinic.
Sarah has a long history ofincarceration, substance abuse
and mental health issues and shedid not grow up in a Christian
household, but she wasintroduced to the gospel message
while in jail in 2007.
Ever since, sarah has beengrowing in her relationship with
Christ.
She earned her bachelor'sdegree in applied behavioral
(01:15):
science, is a certified recoverycoach and a certified
transformational leadershiptrainer.
Sarah is currently working onher master's in global
apologetics from ColoradoChristian University and she's
been working in the mentalhealth industry since 2013 as a
high-risk educator, residentadvisor for at-risk youth in New
(01:37):
Mexico, fswii for TennesseeDepartment of Children's
Services, regional Faith-BasedCommunity Coordinator at MDC
State of Tennessee, and now theExecutive Director for Renew
Clinic.
I had the pleasure of meetingSarah after I heard her
testimony at our church,actually on Easter Sunday last
(01:59):
year, and I am just, sarah, sograteful that you are here today
.
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, and thank you for inviting me.
That was so kind.
I remember you coming up to meand I think it was on that
Easter Sunday and you said Ihave a podcast, I want to have
you on.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I was.
So I actually usually sit in theback to the left-hand side.
I just always we tend to sit inthe same place, and that day we
sat right in the middle, liketwo rows back.
It was like you were talkingright to me sharing your
testimony and it just honestlyresonated so much, especially as
(02:41):
someone who has multiple familymembers that have struggled
with addiction, and at thatmoment, when you shared your
testimony, I was thinking ofthose people.
I may have been sitting withone of them and I just was
thinking people need to hearthis that aren't here today
about what you've been throughand how God has gotten you
(03:04):
through it, but also how someonelike me who has family members
and loved ones and friends thatare going through addiction, can
help, what we can do to supportthe people around us, how we
can pray for them, what we couldpray for them, whatever the
(03:24):
case might be.
So I just knew I was literallysitting there like I have to
talk to her.
I actually think I was a littlebit crazy when I ran up to you.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I'm like so nice to meet you.
Come on the podcast.
Yeah, I just thought, wow, youlook like a movie star.
She must have a really popularpodcast.
She looks like a movie star,you're so sweet.
No but I love your heart forstory and just sitting here
talking to you the last halfhour, you know you're such a
(03:55):
sweet, sweet person and I canjust see Christ all over you and
I love what you're doing here.
So thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
So I have mentioned I got tohear that short version of your
testimony because I'm sure theywould they give you 20 minutes.
Whatever it was, it wasimpactful, maybe not even.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
No, not even it might've been 10.
It might've maybe 10.
I don't even know.
It could have been five, Ican't remember, but it wasn't
very long.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I knew a lot was missing, but the things that I
did hear and a lot of it wasvery heartbreaking.
You know, something that youdiscuss is abortion, and a lot
of it was really inspiring, andso I just knew that your story
is one that others need to hear.
So take your time.
Do not do this in five or 10minutes.
(04:47):
Take your time and walk usthrough your journey.
You know where do you want tostart.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I usually don't like it when people start where I'm
about to start, but I do feellike I should start as just
being a child.
So you had mentioned and I saidthis on stage and I'm going to
say it again I didn't grow up ina Christian home, but I always.
But I didn't grow up in anenvironment that was hostile to
Christ, Like we wouldoccasionally go to church on
(05:21):
Easter or Christmas, you knowthings like that, and I would
say that we were guided byChristian principles.
But I never knew and I heardabout Jesus, but it's not like I
understood doctrine or couldarticulate the gospel or, you
know, knew that Jesus is God inthe flesh.
(05:44):
You know I never had any Biblestudies or anything like that my
father, who adopted me when Iwas nine because I never met my
biological father he's also um,from what I know about him is
struggles with addiction as wellUm, so I was adopted when I was
(06:06):
I want to say I was eight Ithink I just said I was nine,
but I was eight but he is afaithful Jew and he is not a
Christian, but he has alwaysbeen very infatuated with like
Eastern religions and thingslike that and has always been
very infatuated with likeEastern religions and things
like that.
And you know he had a verystrict upbringing so he was
(06:28):
pretty strict and I think thatthere were some benefits to that
.
You know in my life that hetaught me, but I say all that to
say I was not raised aChristian.
You know it was more of auniversalist perspective about
God that.
You know you hear the differentstories or the different
(06:49):
metaphors of.
You know we're all looking atthe elephant from different
angles and some people describethis side of the elephant this
way.
I think my dad has even saidthis to me several times.
We went to a universalistUnitarian church a few times.
He was heavily involved in therecovery community.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Interesting Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yes.
So I remember when I was little, going to meetings and
listening to adults.
Was he recovering?
Was he Okay?
Yes, yes, yes.
Now I never knew him when hewas in active use, when he was
actively using, but yes, he's inrecovery.
(07:33):
So I spent a lot of mychildhood around adults.
I was an only child so you knowI was always around adults
talking about recovery, in therooms of AA and NA, going to
Al-Anon meetings, sitting aroundhaving coffee and cookies with
everyone, going to coffee shopsafter meetings.
So I just going to likeclassical guitar concerts, you
(07:55):
know just, I kind of what, whatyou would say is kind of like
what's like popular now with Idon't know, some of the, some of
the youth, some of the trendsthat I see.
It's like that's how I grew up,like that's how my home was.
You know just, you know just alittle new, agey and grungy.
(08:18):
I mean my dad, he, he did wellfor himself.
I'm just saying like thatgrunge style.
I guess you could say uh, in in.
You know, I remember playingwith ouija boards when I was in
the coffee shop like young, andnobody stopped me.
So I don't know, I just it'skind of a free-for-all.
You know, um, but there werestill, like I would say,
(08:43):
christian values that were stillthere in the home, but as far
as, like, the understanding ofwho God is, doctrines of grace,
that was definitely not a beliefin my home.
So, again, I say all that tosay I did not grow up believing
or being taught from a Christianperspective.
And I say all that to say I didnot grow up believing or being
taught from a Christianperspective.
(09:04):
However, when I was little, Ialways, like, was very
infatuated with God.
I always thought about Him alot.
I remember, you know, justbeing in the back of the car and
looking up out the back of thewindow at night, when I could
see the stars and just likereally dreaming about Him and
thinking about Him.
And I could perceive see thestars and just like really
(09:26):
dreaming about him and thinkingabout him and I could perceive
in the stars.
It reminds me in the in thepsalms, whenever it says you
know the heavens declare the.
You know his majesty.
I could absolutely perceive thatGod was real, he's powerful and
he's loving.
Um, I knew that about him at ayoung age, but that's about all
(09:49):
I knew.
But, you know, I think I had apretty good childhood.
The only thing I would sayreally hurt me was, you know, my
mom was married several timesand so I mean it was a traumatic
(10:15):
, I think, looking back on it,it is a traumatic experience to
feel like you're constantlylosing your mom to a man that
may or may not care about you.
You know now my adopted father.
He did adopt me and he stilltakes that very seriously to
this day.
He's still not a believer, buthe still takes that role in my
(10:36):
life very seriously, which I'mvery grateful for.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Did your mom and your stepdad or your adopted dad?
Did they end up splitting up?
They did, and she remarriedafter that.
She did yes, so you had kind ofthe now.
Did you ever know yourbiological father at all?
No, so you had that missinglink know yeah, missing.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
well, she had married when I was three and I loved
him very much and so when theydivorced, I know I mourned and
grieved.
And then when she got marriedto my adopted father, I was very
angry because it went from likeI was very angry because it
(11:24):
went from like this, but I meanno disrespect to my parents at
all, to my adopted father, soI'm very grateful for him, but I
think he would not deny thefact that he was very strict,
very, very strict.
It's like a Jew from the BronxOK, he's very, very strict.
I got a D on my report cardlike Like I lost every privilege
(11:47):
, down to eating sweets, youknow, if I brought a D home
period, I mean it was, even ifit was a test I was grounded for
from everything you know.
So it went from like like a,almost like a free, a free
feeling, loving atmosphere toalmost like this uh, cold, rigid
atmosphere and that wasdevastating to me and I think it
(12:13):
affected me a lot more than Iever gave it credit.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
um, absolutely because you don't.
You don't have any way toarticulate those feelings.
As a child, Right, right.
We don't have that capabilityuntil we're grown to really even
understand that Right.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Right and I think you know you look back on how your
parents parented and they didthe best they could with what
they knew.
You know I mean he, he didn'thave a loving home either, so he
parented the way, the only wayhe knew to parent at the time.
And my mom's the same way.
I mean she, she's a very loving, nurturing, doting mother.
(12:57):
I mean she was, she was a verygood mom.
But still, the decisions ofadults can still hurt children
and I think it just provoked alot of anger inside of me.
I started to rebel very, veryyoung, at 12.
I started to rebel very, veryyoung, sneaking out, stealing
(13:21):
the car, messing around withboys and using drugs by the time
I was 13 and 14 years old, youknow taking pills, cocaine,
ecstasy, things like that andyou know it wasn't really cool.
(13:45):
You know the friends that I wasgrowing up with and had the
friends that I had.
You know they didn't reallystick around and so that was the
.
So I found other friends andstarted hanging out with
actually much older people,which you know I look back on.
(14:06):
Like some of the people that Ihung out with, I'm like, oh my
gosh, you were like 40 hangingout with, like high schoolers,
like what were you doing?
But I started using very earlyand started becoming sexually
active by the time I was 14.
14.
(14:30):
And, um, my mom and my adoptedfather they actually, I would
say that they ended up divorcingbecause they couldn't agree on
how to handle my rebellion.
Wow, um, I was sent todifferent group homes.
Um, I went, I was sent to achildren's home that I actually
ran away from because they justI was out of control, they
(14:51):
didn't know what to do with me,and so that was almost like an
attempt to save me.
It wasn't.
I don't look back at that andthink, oh my gosh, they hated me
.
I don't blame them.
I mean, they didn't know whatto do, and so they did the best
that they could.
I saw every counselor, everypsychiatrist.
I was on medication.
(15:14):
I was on juvenile probation.
I was in first time.
I went to juvenile detention Ithink I was 15 years old for
about 17 days, but I stayed onprobation.
My entire adolescence, I wouldsay I mean my entire teenage
years, was spent with a curfew,with a probation officer, with
(15:35):
someone to answer to, and so itactually took me a while to to
not feel like I have to lookover my shoulder or explain my
life to somebody, because I wasso used to that that was
actually something I had to getused to.
(15:56):
So, yeah, I mean just, Iexperienced a lot of adult
things at a very young age andwhen I became sexually active at
14, I ended up getting pregnantwhen I was 15.
And I was encouraged by theadults in my life to get an
abortion and, to be honest withyou at the time I treated it
(16:23):
very transactionally.
I treated it verytransactionally.
I didn't think too deeply aboutit.
I was more concerned about myboyfriend at the time.
What people thought about megetting back out there and
partying, feeling good, justvery self-centered, and so, you
(16:48):
know, getting going in andgetting that abortion.
I remember leaving and justthinking, treating it as if it
was just a medical procedure,but there was still something
that felt dirty about it.
It still felt very dirty, but Iwould say I spiraled after that
because it was just like alevel of dirty that I felt that
(17:10):
it's like, okay, I've kind ofcrossed this line, this level of
dirty you know, wow, did yourparents know about this?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Mm-hmm.
So they were aware ofeverything that was going on.
Mm-hmm, so they were aware ofeverything that was going on.
That had to be a very hardthing, that you'd been rebelling
for a couple of years and thenit was like you're 15 and
pregnant.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, you know my, my parents now are very
conservative, I would say verypro-life.
At the time they weren't though.
I mean it was, I think my momparticularly you know she was
not in a relationship with theLord, she was in survival mode
(17:52):
with me and I think she was verymuch in a similar place as I
was is just, like you know, justmaking decisions out of utter
survival mode, you know, and soI, you know she did encourage me
to get that, so, but I mean,she has completely changed her
(18:16):
mind about abortion now.
Um, yeah, and it's veryremorseful that she encouraged
me in that direction.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
What was that like for you to have an abortion and
to go through that experience.
You know, did anybody go withyou?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
My mom went with me.
My boyfriend at the time didnot, and I remember calling him
afterwards and it was just likenothing even happened.
You know, I felt like I feellike everybody just kind of,
even his mom included, just andshe actually blamed me for being
pregnant, like she, she, she'slike it's only one person is
(19:00):
involved in that process one totango, you know.
But she, I remember her blamingme and I'm I'm not mad at her
or anything like that, butthat's just what I remember.
Yeah and um you know, I thinkeverybody was just emotionally
spent from all the drama of ourrelationship, from us using
drugs and being crazy and wild.
(19:21):
I think everybody's just tiredof us and sick of the
relationship and just did notwant anything keeping us
together.
And so I think you know his mom, she's probably just really
tired of me.
So I don't blame her there.
But, to be honest with you, Iwas numb, I was so numb, I was
(19:43):
numb, I was so numb.
But there is a deep, dark, dark,horrific wound that happens to
a person, and I think that inour society we have become so
desensitized to the realities ofwhat abortion actually is that
(20:06):
our soul and our spirit know,but our mind is not connected to
it.
And so there's actually justthis disconnect where there's
this, this deep guilt thatpeople I think a lot of people
are walking around with who havehad an abortion, but their mind
doesn't know what that guilt iscoming from, because they do
(20:29):
not deem abortion as evil.
Because they're, becausethey're blind around with all
kinds of issues because of thescarring that abortion has left
on their soul, but their mindwon't even acknowledge that it
(20:52):
was evil.
Wow, and I think that that'skind of that's where I was at.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, yeah, cause you mentioned that you spiraled
after this, you and I hadchatted a little bit about this
and that it seems to be arecurring theme with many women
who have had abortions.
You know this is part of yourstory too, and other women that
I know have communicated withyou that or that.
You know I've been in thosecircles that it can lead to
substance abuse because of thedeep pain and guilt that comes
(21:29):
from.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Absolutely.
I mean I know women who thinkthat they've committed the
unpardonable sin from having anabortion.
I know several women personallythat either had a complete
mental breakdown and becamesuicidal after having an
abortion or that's where theiraddiction started was after
(21:51):
having an abortion.
And I mean I know very specificpeople that this has happened
to and I don't think that thecorrelation between the two is
addressed enough.
I don't think there's beenenough conversation.
You know the secular world, theliberal world, the pro-choice
movement wants to treat abortionas a good thing and to help the
(22:15):
mental health of women, and Ithink that that is such a naive,
intellectually dishonestposition because there's no way
that death brings healing to awoman.
And I would like to find astudy or for someone to do a
study on the correlation betweenthe two, but I don't know of
(22:39):
any numbers off the top of myhead, but I do know personally
several women where that was thepivotal moment for them in
their either mental breakdown ortheir very beginning point of
their addiction journey.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, you know, I'm very grateful for actually
social media tools likeInstagram, that we have
liveactionorg on Instagram nowand Lila Rose and you know a
bunch of different women thathave been speaking up about this
, that have been speaking upabout this, because I think that
(23:18):
you're right that there is this.
There's this battle to convinceteenagers that abortion is a
medical procedure and that it'shealth care, women's health care
.
But when you actually watch avideo about what happens during
an abortion or learn about thefact that life begins at
(23:40):
conception, it changes the game.
And I'll be honest with you, Iwas one of those people for a
long time that said, well, I'mpro-life and I would never get
an abortion.
But whatever people are goingto do, they're going to do life
and I would never get anabortion, but whatever people
are going to do, they're goingto do.
And over time it was justbecause I was naive, I didn't
know what was actually happeningduring an abortion and we
(24:02):
didn't have the internet when Iwas a kid sort of did, but I was
at the beginning stages of theAOL dial-up and all that stuff.
I remember it wasn't readilyavailable like it is today, and
I think that that's one of thepositives of social media and
the internet is exposing what'sreally going on behind closed
(24:25):
doors, that it's not just take apill and flush your uterus out.
It's nothing but a clump ofcells.
So something that also totallychanged my perspective and I
actually did share this on thepodcast quite a while ago is I
had a miscarriage and I was onlymy guess is about six or seven
weeks pregnant and I actuallypassed the baby and it was the
(24:51):
size of a grain of rice but hadalready developed a nose and
ears and it had a cord anumbilical cord and a tiny
placenta at six weeks andobviously having a miscarriage
is not a fun thing, right?
(25:13):
You get all excited when youfind out out.
You see those two lines andthen they start getting lighter
and that's not fun.
But when I found this baby inmy pad it was such a life
changing moment to say and liketo reconfirm life and that it is
building itself.
(25:33):
You know, through that process.
So I'm, I'm grateful for you,know you sharing your experience
with this to expose that it'snot all cupcakes and roses and
you know you're, you're sweepingaway all your troubles.
It can lead to realpsychological damage and pain?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Oh, totally.
And can I tell you somethingelse?
That's kind of weird andtwisted about the whole thing,
so, and I'm skipping a lot rightnow but I'll get to some of it.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
But just on the abortion piece for many, many
years.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I probably could have gone to a psychiatrist
somewhere and been diagnosedwith like obsessive thoughts,
ocd type things, right.
I mean I really struggled withand I think it was drug induced
um from like bad trips onmushrooms and things like that.
I mean some of these thoughtsnever even began to enter my
mind until I took some of thedrugs that I took and then I
(26:34):
dealt with ongoing mentaltorture for a long time.
God has delivered me, praiseGod.
But for the longest time, evenas a Christian, I struggled with
this thought, with this feelingthat I had killed someone and
(26:54):
didn't remember doing it, and ittormented me.
When I say it tormented me, itwould keep me up.
But I related it to and this isas a Christian, because I
became pro-life all theconservative positions.
Once I became a Christian I tookall conservative positions
right.
So intellectually I agree,positions right.
(27:18):
So intellectually I agreeAbortion is evil at this point,
but still not relating to mineas what had actually happened.
And I spent years with thisharassing thought I've killed
someone, I don't remember doingit and what I thought it was is.
I've spent so much time in ablackout.
I could have done somethinghorrible and I don't even
remember doing it and that'swhat I thought, that's why, and
(27:39):
so I kind of I surrendered allthe years that I don't remember,
you know.
But I mean I even went to likelooking up news stories Like has
anybody ever like in placesthat I used to live, has anybody
ever been like hit by a drunkdriver and nobody ever found out
who it was, or something?
I mean I was like obsessivelyand because I kind of, if I were
(28:01):
going to be like I said, if Iwere going to be diagnosed with
something clinical, I canunderstand like the OCD mind,
the, the obsessive thoughts, theruminating the, you know, and I
think that that's just demonicharassment.
Now I mean I really do, Nowthat I know, I've understood
kind of where some of that comesfrom.
But I never pinned down that Ihad not grieved and mourned my
(28:27):
abortion.
I was brushing it off tosomething else.
I mean that's how transactional, that's how disconnected I was
from the abortion as a Christian, pro-life Christian, several
(28:49):
years into being a Christian,and God, in His perfect timing,
removed that veil from me.
What.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I was going to ask is how did the veil drop for that?
How was that revealed?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
It was in time because he's very gentle.
But grief is a strange thing.
I mean now I can't hardly getthrough talking about it without
tears coming.
But I've made the promise Iwill never forget him again and
I believe God's revealed to me.
I was a boy, I was very, veryyoung in my pregnancy, so
(29:24):
there's no way I could haveknown anything.
I mean, I was, you know, sixweeks or something.
But I forgot him once.
I will never forget him againis my vow in his life.
It means something, it has valueand it has purpose and it has
(29:45):
totally motivated me to see thehorrors of abortion.
There is no exception.
There's no exception.
I mean I hated abortion before.
I hate it even more now.
You know, I was pro-life when Ibecame a Christian and I thought
I mean I just had so much zealbecause, logically, I'm like,
I'm just like thinking likelogically, like y'all, it's
(30:07):
murder, you know, and still notconnected to my own, totally
disconnected.
But when God removed that veilwas an adult, I had been a
christian for a while and um,the actually the floodgates more
(30:28):
so open, I would say justwithin a year ago.
Wow, yeah, and I've even becomemore pro-life as I've become an
adult and things like that, butto actually grieve and mourn
the blood that was on my ownhands and to actually recognize
what the sin I had committed, ofmy own child and my child's
(30:54):
blood being on my hand.
It's not a condemnation thought.
It's not a condemnation thought, it's not a tormenting thought,
it is not from the enemy, it istruly from the Lord for me to
actually grieve this thinginside of me that has been there
ever since.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
That has caused a lot of mental anguish and confusion
and distortion and I didn'teven connect it to that yeah, um
, I know it reminds me of howyou know I've this is something
I talk about sometimes that ourminds are like computers and we
(31:35):
store all these files and wehave our kind of conscious
thoughts and we have oursubconscious thoughts, and I
think that sometimes, whensomething is so painful, it's
like we put it in the back.
You know, we put it in a folderinside of a folder, inside of
another folder, and it's there,but we don't.
That's our subconscious right.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
It's like it's in the back and it sounds like you
have had multiple yeah it soundslike it was there.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
No, it's okay, it was there, but your, your mind,
didn't want to open the file youknow, it didn't, it didn't want
to open the folder that it wasin painful.
It was too painful.
But then there was anotherpiece of you that was saying
maybe it was the enemy, like yousaid.
You know you've killed someone.
(32:25):
You've killed someone and he'sprobably the one that talked you
into it in the first place.
That's the thing that's so sickabout the enemy is the things
that he talks us into doing andthen uses it to torture us later
.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I know, I know, I know he hates us.
He hates humans because we'rein, we're creating the image of
god.
That's why he hates us.
Whenever he looks at a humanbeing, he's reminded of his
worst enemy.
But yes, I mean the enemy isall up in, like causing us to
stumble and fall and sin andthen wants to torment us with it
(33:00):
.
You're absolutely right and Iabsolutely believe that the
tormenting thoughts like what ifyou've killed someone and you
don't remember it?
I mean I had no evidence that Ihad.
I mean I was thinking horrificLike what if I?
You know, I mean it's insanelike the thoughts that I would
actually entertain and not, Imean, what most people would
(33:22):
reasonably just say oh, that'sstupid.
I struggled, you know, puttingthoughts away.
I really did for a very longtime.
I don't care how ridiculous itwas.
If it crossed my mind, I wouldsit there and entertain it and I
thought that was just anotherone of those things.
But that one thing never wentaway and call it demonic the
(33:48):
subconscious mind.
I do think Satan was having aheyday.
But also the subconscious mindis trying to bring to the
forefront like there's somethinghere that needs to be dealt
with.
But God in his perfect time.
He helped me mature and helpedme grow in my faith and helped
me understand grace, and I thinkthat's when he really pulled
(34:12):
back the veil.
I was driving, I was on my wayto Nashville to meet with the
president of a college and theCEO of another organization
because they want to partnerwith Renew Clinic on something.
And I'm driving to Nashvilleand I just felt this grief
(34:36):
inside.
I'm like Lord, what is thatgrief?
And that's when it happened.
And I'm driving.
When I say I'm sobbing.
I mean I was grieving the lossof a child.
I was actually grieving in thatmoment, the loss of a child,
(34:57):
and I've needed to grieve thatever since it happened and I
never grieved it.
And I saw blood on my hands andthe Lord said hand this to me,
give this to me.
I've atoned for this kind ofthing and in my mentally,
(35:17):
spiritually, I handed the bloodover to him and then he reminded
me death doesn't no longer hasthe final say.
Death isn't the end anymore.
There's hope, like that's notthe final say of your story
anymore or of your child's storyanymore.
That's not the final say ofyour story anymore or of your
child's story anymore.
That's not the final say,because Christ lives and but
(35:41):
they were still grieving.
I pull up to the meeting.
I call my husband and I toldhim I can't stop crying, I'm
sobbing, I cannot stop crying,I'm grieving the abortion I had
when I was 15 years old and heprayed for me.
I was able to like pull myselftogether kind of like, put some
(36:04):
makeup on and walk in there.
I went to the bathroom.
I'm like Lord, please help mepull this together.
The president, I go and sitdown.
We're at a Mexican restaurant.
And I go and sit down.
We're at a Mexican restaurant,christian Brothers in Christ,
right, and we've all introducedeach other friendly.
And I feel like I'm such a fakeand phony at that point because
(36:26):
I was just weeping in theparking lot.
Now I'm like hi, I'm Sarah, youknow, like such a fake and
phony.
And then the president ofWilliamson College that's the
college, bless him.
He turned to me and he said so,how many children do you have?
(36:47):
And I started weeping.
I said okay, I got to telly'all something.
And I told them.
I sat there and I said the Lordhas, I've on my way here.
I've started grieving somethingI've never grieved before and
it was abortion that I had whenI was 15 years old and I'm
really grieving.
I feel like I have to vocalizethis to you all for me to even
(37:09):
move forward in this discussion.
They loved on me.
There was no condemnation atall.
You know, whenever people say,oh, the church is so judgmental
and all this stuff, I've zerojudgment at that table.
But I just felt nothing butlove and acceptance and um, so
(37:34):
yeah, that's when the Lorddecided to remove the veils.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It's amazing how he works, but I'm grateful that you
opened up to them.
It's good to hear that you werejust like you know what.
Here's what's really going on.
I think that that allows for alot of opportunity to to just be
real with people you know.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
But going back to the addictionside of things, I mean that
goes to show you that, as aChristian, I mean God will
continue to deliver us fromthings and heal us from things.
That you know there's no likemoment, that there's a moment of
salvation, but there's no likeokay, this is the moment that I
(38:21):
was all better you know, yeah,everything was resolved because
this was at least 20 years later.
Yes, yes, 20 years, more than 20years later, I'm 37.
This was like last year, solike 2021 years later.
Yeah, and that's when the Lorddecided to heal something from
(38:44):
when I was 15 years old and forme to grieve.
And so now my heart is verysensitive to the abortion I had,
but I will take that pain.
I will take that pain.
I'll take the grief that.
I do not ever want to be numbto that again or to forget my
child again.
(39:04):
I will never forget him again.
But, yes, when I was a teen,after that abortion at 15.
I definitely spun out verypromiscuous.
Gosh, I can't even begin totell you just the crazy things
that I did.
And you know, I almost found myidentity at some point.
(39:27):
And just doing the most drugs,doing the craziest things, and I
just wanted an identity.
And I thought, ok, this issomething I'm really good at.
I'm really good at, like beinga criminal and getting in fights
and using a wanted an identity.
And I thought, okay, this issomething I'm really good at.
I'm really good at, like, beinga criminal and getting in
fights and using a bunch ofdrugs.
So I guess I'm just gonna goall in, you know.
And so that's what I did, and Iended up I was incarcerated
(39:50):
quite a bit.
I can't even tell you how manytimes I've been arrested.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
What were you getting arrested for, just like
underage drinking or Stupidstuff?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, I mean stupid stuff, like primarily DUI, like
DUI, underage drinking,shoplifting, driving with a
revoked license you know juststupid stuff.
But after you get like eightdriving with a revoked license,
you know just stupid stuff.
But after you get like eightdriving with a revoked license,
they lock you up for a while.
(40:18):
It's like okay, no way.
Yeah, I mean it's stupid, butand I was a dumb criminal I
remember being at a party.
I was so dumb and this wasGod's grace in my, my life.
I was at a party and they wereall.
It was like a kegger orsomething like that.
(40:39):
I mean, who who hasn't donethat as a teenager?
Maybe some people.
But but I was at a party andeveryone had been drinking.
The cops came.
They're passing out underagedrinking tickets.
Everyone's gotten one.
He.
He said did I miss anyone?
And I raised my hand.
That's the kind of dumbcriminal I am.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
You're like give it to me man.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
I was like I didn't get one, Slap me with another
one.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, I didn't get one.
Don't leave me out.
That's funny.
Were you the only one who didthat?
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yes, and then I was like, oh, you know, just like me
, I was just like, wait, what Ijust do?
Um, just dumb, um.
So it was just stuff like that,but I mean, but it ended it.
I was constantly on probation,constantly had a curfew, um, I I
did like a 30 somesome stint injail, a 60-day, some stint in
(41:36):
jail, you know, 17-day,three-day.
You know, it was just a bunchof like smaller stints, a lot of
treatment in and out oftreatment, you know, a lot of
secular treatment.
And it was when I was in jailthat there was a prison ministry
(41:57):
and they brought the gospel.
And this time that I was in jail, this specific time, god just
got me to a very low, low place.
I had burned every bridge.
I had no dignity, noself-respect, no true friends
anymore, really no place to gobecause I couldn't live with my
(42:20):
mom and I had no home.
At that point, I mean, I reallyhad no place to go and I had no
one trusted me, no self-respect, no hope.
I mean I was at such a lowplace.
(42:41):
I was locked up in one Countyon probation, missing a court
date in another County for thesame charge, and so I'm like
terrified, I'm just, you know,I'm really going to get slapped
with a couple of years orsomething, have to go to prison,
(43:01):
which I thought I was going togo to prison.
And so my my heart was ripe toreceive the gospel.
And there were some these olderladies that came.
They were old, I I mean theywere old ladies and they came in
to bring the gospel to thewomen in new hanover county jail
(43:28):
in williamton, in uh uh,wilmington, north carolina, and
they told us about the womanwith the bleeding disorder and
they brought a shawl like torepresent Jesus's garment and
they invited all the women inthe prison to come and to touch
the hem of his garment to behealed.
(43:48):
And I just dove to that garment.
Mind you, I did not grow up ina Christian home, I didn't grow
up Christian, but I knew, rightthen and there, what they're
saying is true.
I believe Jesus can forgive me,I believe Jesus can deliver me,
I believe Jesus can help me.
And I just remembered justdiving and started weeping.
(44:10):
And then all these other womenstarted clinging to the hem of
this garment and sobbing.
It was like Pentecost, I mean,it was like just the Holy Spirit
just came upon these women inthis room.
I'm sure that those two oldwomen.
It was such a blessing to be apart of that and to facilitate
(44:31):
that.
I'm so grateful, though, andthat was the beginning of my
journey with Christ.
That's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Wow, what, what a blessing that those women were
there.
And what a moving.
Moving I don't know what theword is, but like the you know
what the story and the you knowhem of his garment, like it just
wow, I like have the chills.
That's very cool, yes, veryneat.
(45:03):
And so that was a turning pointfor you as you started on a new
journey.
And I'm curious because you andI have talked about spiritual
warfare a little bit.
You mentioned being demonizedearlier, but you also have
brought up a couple of thingsthat I've had some conversations
(45:25):
with other women who have had,who have been demonized before
and have used Ouija boards askids or have been exposed to
other potential doorways todarkness and things of that
nature over their youth andteenage years.
So I'm curious about thespiritual warfare side of things
(45:47):
in the spiritual realm.
Is that something that camelater?
Is that something that camelater in your walk with Christ
that you kind of started to seethe spiritual realm or
understand or feel it?
I know everyone has kind of adifferent take on the sensing of
(46:08):
the spiritual realm in a sense,but I'd love for you to just
kind of speak to that a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Sure.
So I don't think I really dealtwith my tormentors until I was
later in my walk with Christ andI think, okay, so I do think
that there's some doors thatopen specifically hallucinate,
(46:35):
hallucinate, hallucinating onmushrooms, I mean.
I remember there was one nightand I've done them several times
, but there was one night I feltlike I was stuck in a nightmare
for and I didn't feel normalfor about a month.
Um, it's the first time I everexperienced like derealization,
depersonalization, which is likefeeling like you're in a dream,
(46:57):
you know, questioning like iseverything around me real?
And it's really demonic,suggestion type stuff that if
you don't, if you do not knowthe Lord or if you don't have a
biblical worldview, you don'teven know how to respond to
these demonic suggestions.
And so these suggestions, Ithink, came to me for the first
(47:19):
time when I took mushrooms.
Um, what if everything aroundyou is fake?
What if you're dreaming?
What if this is just a videogame?
What if you know all thesehorrific thoughts which,
clinically, they call itderealization, dep,
depersonalization, which can bedrug-induced, it can be
trauma-induced, but I and Ithink that there is something to
(47:43):
that and I also think that wemake ourselves vulnerable to
spiritual attack and to demonicsuggestions.
That's what I call it.
I call it a demonic suggestionbecause all the all the devil
really has to do sometimes isjust suggest something to
torment us.
You know, suggest, like to posea question that is either
(48:06):
circular or is impossible toanswer, or, you know, I can get
into that in a second, butthat's the first.
I think that that's when a doorreally opened for me was
tripping on mushrooms, smokingweed, stuff like that.
I just did not handle thatstuff well, I never really
(48:30):
enjoyed it, and there's a reasonfor that.
I mean, it just opened my mindup to questions, existential
questions, that I just didn'thave the answers to, was a
(48:55):
Christian.
Anytime I got overwhelmedbecause I was either a baby
Christian or still didn't havethe apologetic wit to me to be
able to answer some of the youknow, cunning and baffling,
demonic suggestions that wouldcome my way.
Anytime I got stressed out oroverwhelmed, those thoughts
would come back, and so thatwent on throughout my my adult
life.
Really, I would just, you know,just having phobias and you
(49:22):
know, clinically you can, youcan call, call it, you know
certain things, but I know thatthese were just tormentors that
I never really confronted faceto face or, you know,
spiritually, until I was more ofa mature believer and I was
(49:46):
never really taught aboutspiritual warfare.
I didn't really understand it.
It was very confusing but itactually helped me a lot when I
understood what actually washappening.
Because you know to know thatnot every thought that goes
through your head is from you.
You know, like praise God, youknow Awesome.
(50:10):
So I'm not blaspheming.
You know it's like no, that's ablasphemous thought, that's
being that you're beingtormented with.
You know, but I was, I was man,I struggled big time with
things like that and you know.
But also having an abortion,that was an open door to demonic
torment, I mean, and again, Ididn't even know that's where it
(50:33):
was coming from.
It's like we have all thesewounds to our souls and all
these open doors and you know,so many adults and even
Christians are, you know,walking around thinking they
have some kind of disorder, whenit's like Christ can heal those
things.
And I'm not saying every singleissue that people have.
(50:54):
I know that there are actuallysome physical ailments that
people can have that can, thatcan cause, you know, severe
anxiety and depression.
I mean, if your thyroid's outof whack.
It can.
People can get suicidal.
I mean truly your, your body.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Or if you take birth control.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah, I mean medication, absolutely yeah, and
so it's not always demonic.
I don't want people to hearthat and think that's what I'm
saying, but for me personally, Ido think it's a combination of
how my brain works and havingopen doors and being demonically
(51:31):
harassed for a while.
But what was your originalquestion?
Speaker 1 (51:36):
I'm so sorry.
No, I just wanted you to talkmore about that because I think
that it's something that's nottalked about enough in the
church.
But here's the thing I grew upin the church, grew up in the
church, and even I did not havean understanding or talk about
(51:58):
spiritual warfare until the pastfew years, and so I don't think
it's the kind of thing thatwe're just like chit-chatting
about on Sundays or in Sundayschool or whatever the case
might be, and that's why I wantto have these conversations, so
that, if someone hasn't heardabout it before, now you have,
(52:18):
and now you can become moreaware that the enemy does
whisper to us and he does try toinfluence us, and he does.
It's interesting that you'reusing the word, you know,
demonic influence.
I think that's a good way ofcommunicating about it.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Or suggestion, or suggestion.
That's what you said.
Suggestion yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Um, one of the first series that I did on this
podcast with my sister was onspiritual warfare and kind of
talking about where the roots ofspiritual warfare come from,
with the Nephilim and theWatchers and all that, and we
had a discussion back then aboutoppression versus possession.
(53:04):
But since then my opinion haskind of shifted a little bit.
It's not that I don't want toget into the semantics of it
necessarily, but I've recentlyheard somebody use the word
demonized to say that, you know,from a biblical perspective the
word translates most similarlyto being demonized, which I
(53:28):
think is similar to what you'resaying, where you're being
influenced by demons, you'rebeing harassed by them, they're
attacking you in a sense.
They're demonizing you, they'rebothering you.
And I think that that's yeah,and I kind of resonated with
that explanation of it becausethat makes a lot of sense when I
(53:51):
think about times in my life.
It's like a gnat that is justcoming at you, but in a really
dark and evil way, and reallytwisted, psychologically twisted
way.
Absolutely In a manipulativeand horrific way.
Yeah, totally.
I mean, it's different fordifferent people, right, for
some people it may be suicidalstuff, which is the darkest of
(54:15):
dark.
But for other people and for alot of men that struggle with
things like pornography, it'sthat little whisper of nobody's
going to know.
Yeah, just just just do it,it's not, it's not really
hurting anybody, just do it,it's not, it's not really
hurting anybody.
Right, you know that it'salmost like the devil on one
(54:36):
shoulder and the you know theangel on the other.
Like which one are you going tolisten to?
And it's just an interestingthing.
But my original question wasjust kind of when, when that was
opened up for you?
Because I think that in myexperience and from the stories
that I've heard so far, it's notlike we all just wake up to
(54:56):
this with spiritual warfare as,like little children, we're not
able to understand or comprehendit, and then even as new
believers, it can be very hard.
It's not until many people havebeen spiritually attacked that
sometimes they recognize it thenat their lowest, or other
people recognize it during anattack, like I shared the story
(55:20):
of my son's birth with you andit's on the podcast all the
details, but that was a veryspecific attack that I
experienced in my life and therewas a couple other times where
I was able to, you know, kind ofrecognize it in the moment.
But it's just something forbelievers and, of course,
(55:40):
non-believers to be aware of andto be cognizant about that.
We are in a spiritual realm andthere are entities that want to
destroy us and destroy ourmarriages, our children, our
lives.
Like you said at the beginningof this, the enemy hates humans,
(56:03):
so he's going to do anything hecan to corrupt us.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
He hates us, like absolutely hates us.
He hates us Like absolutelyhates us, and he's actually the
enemy, is actually convinced.
You know, people like, forexample, satanist.
He's convinced them that he'sactually the good guy and we've
all been to see, I mean, it'sjust, it's so twisted, you know
and that he's actually theliberator of mankind.
(56:30):
You know, it's just, it's sopsychologically twisted and
unless people this is the thingis unless people understand how
Satan works you don't want toget so infatuated with demons
and Satan that that's all youthink about.
However, you need to also knowhow your enemy operates.
You've got to know his tactics.
You've got to know because histactics you've got to know,
(56:53):
because that's how I mean.
If you know how the enemyoperates, then you can identify.
Oh, I see what's happening here.
You know, this is just, this isjust a demonic attack or this
is like, this is evil.
You know, there are so manytimes that, like I had thoughts
going through my head that Ithought it was just me, you know
(57:15):
, and I'd either feel ashamed ofit or I would think it came
from my heart, and then I'd say,oh, my gosh, lord forgive me,
but the Lord kind of showed me,like when it comes to like
invasive thoughts.
It's kind of like I'm standingand he I don't know why this is
like.
The visual I got is likestanding outside and there's a
street and on the other side ofthe street there's somebody
(57:36):
standing on a sidewalk just likescreaming out explicits, right,
blaspheming, god, cussing,whatever.
I'm not sinning because I canhear it.
You know, I didn't ask to hearit, I don't want to hear it and
you know, but I'm not sinningbecause I can hear it.
I don't want to hear it and youknow, but I'm not sinning
because I can hear it.
And that's the same thing withlike invasive thoughts sometimes
is I don't think so much thatit's not always just the
(58:01):
invasive thought that'stormenting, it's people thinking
that it's them that'stormenting People thinking that
the thought is actuallyoriginating from them.
But if we can recognize thatthere are invasive thoughts and
you're not sinning just becauseyou simply hear it or experience
the thought, you know that initself dismantles the whole
(58:28):
thing.
Because I think Satan's tacticis for us to feel unnecessary
shame and guilt for things wehaven't even done sometimes and
so that was the way that I washarassed was invasive thoughts
For whenever it got really bad.
For me, it was invasivethoughts.
I do not believe that a true,genuine believer, like a
(58:50):
Christian, who's indwelled withthe Holy Spirit, can be fully,
full-on possessed by Satan.
I do not believe that a true,genuine believer, like a
Christian, who's indwelled withthe Holy Spirit, can be fully,
full on possessed by Satan.
I do not believe that's trueBecause Jesus is the strong man
who binds up the other, whobinds up the robber in the house
(59:10):
and actually, you know, clinton, jesus is.
This is the strong man.
I'm chopping up this scriptureright now.
I don't even know what I'mtrying to say but it's, it's
1030.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
So it's my fault for for making you do this in the
middle of the night.
Speaker 2 (59:28):
Oh my gosh, my words are like chopped up.
But Jesus is the strong man andI don't think that any person
indwelt with the Holy Spiritpersonally can be fully taken
over by Satan.
I do not believe that at all.
But we can be harassed andthere's different ways.
(59:49):
We all have kind of like akryptonite, so like Satan, has
been studying humans forthousands of years and he's much
smarter than we are Not smarterthan God, but smarter than
people.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
At times more strategic he's a lot older yeah,
a lot older.
More cunning and been watchingour families for generations,
Right so knows ourvulnerabilities and what can
hook us.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
But God can still give us victory, even over that
ancient serpent.
You know, even though we'veonly been on this earth 37, 38
years.
You know we don't know the insand outs of our family history,
like some of the.
You know some of the unseenrealm knows, of the unseen realm
(01:00:36):
knows.
But God still gives us victory,even in our weakness and our
frailty and even in ourfoolishness.
I mean he can give us victoryand he's given me victory, a
tremendous victory.
Some of the things I've beenharassed with, I mean, by God's
grace, I did not struggle todaythe way I used to struggle
(01:00:57):
mentally with some of thesethings from when I opened doors,
from whenever I was younger,and I do agree that that is a
thing Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
It takes time.
It reminds me of the saying inthat song tell the devil no, not
today.
Yeah, and that is kind of howit is right.
When he comes after us and he'sgot his whispers and his things
that he's trying to lead us offthe path with.
And I do agree with what yousaid about when the Holy Spirit
is in us and dwelling with usand it's kind of there's the
(01:01:30):
influence or the pressure couldbe there.
But as long as we're allowingthe Lord to reside in our hearts
, with us, we have thatprotection.
And I think that that's why alot of times when believers or
Christians are experiencing alot of this stuff, I tend to
(01:01:55):
notice it's when they're intheir lukewarm state, right,
they're like off the path doingtheir own thing, and then all
this crazy stuff starts tohappen and it's almost like it's
not like they've lost theirbelief in God, but they've
kicked the Holy Spirit out oftheir heart for that period of
(01:02:15):
time.
I don't know.
It's interesting to kind of seethe struggles of some believers
over the years that I'vepersonally known.
It's like I know they believein God, years that I've
personally known.
It's like I know they believein God, but they're just being
pulled away and pulled off thepath.
(01:02:38):
And yeah, I just think thatit's important for us to all
recognize the spiritual realmfor what it is, expose it,
expose the enemy, like you said,just have an awareness and not
that it's all the time.
Again, like you said, itshouldn't be our obsession.
When I first started studyingspiritual warfare, it actually
really freaked my husband out.
(01:02:59):
He was like what are yougetting into?
What is this about?
And it really scared him.
But I used to tease him.
I'd be like what's the matter?
Am I stirring up your demons?
Am I making them mad?
I'd be like what's the matter?
Am I stirring up your demons?
Am I making them mad?
But there is a side to thatthat we have to own each of our
(01:03:19):
own.
I had to own my own things thatI was allowing the enemy to
influence me on and to kind ofspeak over me, and yeah.
So anyway, I think this is,this was a good little sidebar
for us to have.
Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah, well, I mean, we have the flesh, too, that
we're battling our flesh.
We have Satan and we have theworld, and it's all three, you
know.
So some it's a combination ofall three and you know, I don't
think that a genuine believercan, you know, make themselves
(01:03:55):
not be sealed or remove the HolySpirit from them.
I don't think the Bible saysthat he is faithful.
He will finish what he hasstarted Now.
Does he allow dark nights ofthe soul?
Absolutely?
Will he even allow, you know, ademonic harassment, because
(01:04:20):
he's sovereign?
I mean, he's got he does allowit, I mean, but it's not to harm
us.
It would be to deliver us,because, if there's any point at
which Satan can, or to humbleus, you know, paul talks about
his, his thorn in the flesh, andit was.
(01:04:43):
He called it a harassingmessenger from Satan and he
begged the Lord to remove it.
I mean, I had actually resolvedin my mind for several years
that not several years, butseveral months, because I went
through a really hard time backin 2018 with this kind of stuff.
I had resolved in my mind okay,maybe this is just a thorn in
(01:05:05):
my flesh to keep me humble,because that's what the Holy
Spirit told Paul is you know,when you're weak, I'm strong,
like my grace is sufficient foryou.
And the Lord did not removethat thorn, which Paul said was
a harassing messenger from Satan.
And that thorn was there tokeep Paul humble.
(01:05:28):
And you know, people want tosay that the thorn could have
been some kind of physicalailment, but Paul literally said
it was a harassing messengerfrom Satan and God allowed it.
Well, look at Job.
Yeah, look at Job.
Job was tortured for life.
Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Yes, yeah, I mean, and God allowed that.
Mm-hmm, because I mean, and Godallowed that, because I mean,
(01:06:16):
yeah, it just.
It was further evidence ofhuman choice, though, which was
cool in the end, that eventhrough his torture, he wasn't
cursing God or denying him.
He stuck with the Lord, and Ithink that that's such a
powerful example for us toobserve and to live by is like
even with being tormented, henever gave up God and God didn't
give up on him.
Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
He never gave up God and God didn't give up on him.
Right, if the breakdown happens, whether it's because of a
physical mental breakdown orit's a demonic attack or
unresolved trauma whatever labelyou want to put on it God is
sovereign, he allows it and youknow, sometimes, I know, for me
(01:06:53):
there's been a treasure on theother side.
I wouldn't have gotten anyother way and I'm grateful for
some of those times Nevergrateful for a demonic attack,
don't get me wrong but thespiritual lessons that can come.
(01:07:13):
Because whenever we cling toChrist in those vulnerable
moments, because we're weak,we're flesh, we can't fight the
spiritual realm in our ownstrength.
Whenever we are under spiritualattack, demonic harassment,
whatever, that puts us in a veryvulnerable place to truly throw
ourselves on christ and we'revery, you know, we're reliant
(01:07:35):
upon him in those moments,unlike, you know, other times in
our life when we're notexperiencing that.
And then so, whenever we're inthat place of relying on him at
such a vulnerable place, itteaches deep, teaches us very
deep spiritual realities that weprobably wouldn't learn
otherwise.
You know, you have some giantsof the faith, like John Bunyan,
(01:07:57):
who wrote Pilgrim's Progress,and if you read his spiritual
autobiography Grace Abounding tothe Chief of Sinners.
He struggled.
It brought me so much comfortwhen I read that because I mean,
he struggled a lot with thatobsessive thinking and thought
that he had lost his salvationand the harassments of Satan and
just the mental battle thatwent on for years.
(01:08:18):
And God was training him duringthat time in holiness and was
preparing him for ministry.
And his ministry is stillaffecting the church centuries
later and I think god used andmolded him through his, his dark
(01:08:38):
nights of the soul from theharassments of satan.
Nobody wants to go through that.
It's not fun, for there's noquestion it's.
It can be awful, um, but itteaches us to endure in a way
that I don't know that manyother things can, because that
that's a battle that can only befought by throwing ourselves on
(01:09:00):
Christ.
Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Absolutely.
I was joking around.
At the end of the year I keptseeing all these memes that were
like Lord, as we're going intothis next year, could you send
me some of the easy stuff?
No more of your hard battles,that kind of stuff going around
and it was like all this contentwas being thrown at me that
(01:09:23):
said you're not going to learngrace or you're not going to
learn forgiveness unless you gothrough all these hard things.
And it can be, it can suck, itcould really suck to get thrown
this stuff because we, you know,we're, we're human and it's not
an easy thing, but we areforged in the fire.
(01:09:44):
We are forged when we have togo through these hard times and
these hard things, but God isthere to walk through it with us
and to pull us out of the otherside.
And that's what I love aboutyour testimony so much is that
you went through so many yearsof such just pain and things
(01:10:08):
that sucked I'll just use thatword again no, just not great
pain, no other word for it.
Yeah, and now where you are in,the place that you're in and the
position that you're in, withwhat you're doing with your life
you know, working with RenewClinic, which we're going to
talk about later on it's just anincredible thing and an example
(01:10:32):
that no one is too far gone, noone.
There's no one that cannot besaved by the blood of Jesus.
You know he's there for usthrough our struggles and
through our heartbreak andhardships and hard times and all
of that hard times and all ofthat for us.
(01:10:56):
So, that said, is thereanything else you wanted to
either share about yourtestimony or kind of share, as
we're wrapping up this episode?
Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
I think the last piece I want to include is the
beginning of my walk with Christwas in that jail and he began
to give me a hunger for his word.
I remember I felt more freeincarcerated in that jail than
I'd ever felt outside of jail.
And it's not because I was injail, it's because I knew Jesus
(01:11:27):
Like I, finally, like my facehas been turned to him.
But it wasn't until after I gotout, where, if there was like a
born again experience thatpeople had I know not everybody
has like it's not like a bigfirecracker experience for
everybody, but for me it was Iwas by myself in my room and I
(01:11:51):
was praying.
I had gotten out of jail, I wasin my room and all of a sudden
I saw him, not with my, and hislove and his forgiveness was
(01:12:15):
poured into my heart in a waythat I will never forget and it
was overwhelming.
I was weeping, but with joy.
I had never had that beforeever and it was just like
pouring into me and I didn'tknow how else to express that.
(01:12:36):
And so I found like an oldsheet and I cut it in like just
like a rectangular shape, andthen my mom, actually when I was
17,.
My mom, I grew up an only child, but my mom had my brother when
I was 17 years old and so atthe time I was like 18 when this
(01:12:58):
happened and I found some ofhis Crayola paints spirit, which
was the erected cross handscoming up from the flames and
the blood, like touching thehands, like atoning, like people
, like reaching up to him anyway, but that I painted, filled
(01:13:24):
with the spirit of God in a wayI'd never been filled before,
and I still have that to thisday, that piece of cloth that I
mean I'm not an artist at all,but I will I still have.
And there was a period of time Idoubted my salvation and that
piece of cloth was a greatcomfort to me.
(01:13:46):
And so and he's been teachingme and walking with me ever
since.
He has never left me, he'snever forsaken me.
I thought that I have pushedmyself over the ledge of
salvation and lost it before andwent through a very dark time
and I have sinned horrificallyas a Christian, but he has never
(01:14:12):
left me, he's never forsaken me.
And I'm not saying it's okay todo those things, but I am just
attesting to His faithfulness.
To finish what he said he wasgoing to what he has started and
that nothing can pluck us outof His hand and we still should
work out our salvation with fearand trembling.
I'm not dismissing that at all.
(01:14:35):
I'm seriously just attesting tohis faithfulness.
He has been so faithful in mylife.
Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Amazing.
That's beautiful, Sarah.
I love it.
Thank you so much for sharingyour testimony and talking about
all these things with me.
Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
Yeah, thanks for having me Awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
Well, if you are looking to find Sarah outside of
the podcast, sarah can be found.
Actually, you have a podcast.
Yeah, yes, the Waging Warpodcast.
I will link in the show notes alink to your YouTube channel
and all that good stuff.
And Sarah can also be found atRenewKnoxvillecom R-E-N-E W.
(01:15:20):
Any other resources that youwant me to throw out there
channels.
Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
We're a new clinic Knoxville.
That's where you can kind ofsee the podcast, the video.
But you can download the WagingWar podcast on any podcast
platform Awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
I love it Well.
Thank you, sarah, for beinghere.
Thank you everyone for tuningin, being on this journey,
thanks for having me.
Yeah, this has been awesome andmore to chat about too.
So everybody stay tuned.
If you would like to followalong outside the podcast, be
sure to join the mission onInstagram, facebook, youtube, at
(01:16:03):
the Radiant Mission.
And today we are going to closewith one of Sarah's favorite
verses, which is 1 John 5,verses 20 through 21.
We know that the Son of God hascome and has given us
understanding so that we mayknow Him, who is true, and we
are in Him, who is true, bybeing in His Son, jesus Christ.
(01:16:24):
So he is the true God andeternal life.
Dear children, keep yourselvesfrom idols.
We are wishing you a radiantweek and we'll see you next time
.
Bye, everyone.
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