February 25, 2025 • 64 mins
After years of wandering through the maze of addiction and secular mental health approaches, Sarah Keel found her beacon of hope in faith. Join us as she shares her compelling journey from rebellion to redemption, revealing the profound impact of a biblical worldview on addiction recovery. We explore the tension between secular and spiritual paradigms, highlighting the unique challenges faced by faith-based organizations like Renew Clinic in a world often dominated by New Age practices.
We challenge the conventional narrative that reduces addiction and postpartum depression to mere brain diseases. Instead, we venture into the realm of holistic healing, where spiritual and emotional dimensions are as crucial as the physical. Our conversation redefines addiction as a form of misguided worship, emphasizing the importance of addressing the entire person. Through personal stories and biblical insights, we delve into the transformative potential that lies in acknowledging the spiritual nature of addiction, advocating for a path of true liberation and flourishing beyond mere survival.
The journey of recovery isn't just an individual's battle; it's a family affair. We navigate the intricate dynamics of support systems, underscoring the delicate balance between helping and enabling from a Christian perspective. Discover the power of community and the significance of setting healthy boundaries. Whether it's through groups like Al-Anon or finding solace in prayer, we offer guidance on navigating these challenging waters. As we reflect on the stages of change and the profound impact of surrender, we illuminate the path to healing with hope, faith, and a renewed sense of purpose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
The Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission podcast.
(00:34):
My name is Rebecca Toomey andwe are on a mission to encourage
and inspire you as you'renavigating through your life and
with your relationship withChrist.
We have been in a series onbeing countercultural in a
secular world and today I amwelcoming back a very special
guest.
Her name is Sarah Keel.
She is a wife, a mom, a loverof Jesus, and she is the
(00:54):
executive director at RenewClinic.
She joined us last week toshare her testimony.
We also talked extensivelyabout abortion and spiritual
warfare, so definitely listenback on last week's episode to
hear more about Sarah'stestimony and those topics that
kind of set the stage fortoday's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So, Sarah, thank you for coming back, or really for
staying up later to talk to me.
Oh, it's a joy, though it trulyis.
It's a joy and the Lord is ableto to sharpen our minds at any
part of the night, or yeah,that's right, he is 11.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
He is.
He gives us all the words, evenat night, even at night, so
it's a blessing, absolutely Well, I've loved hearing just all
the things about your journey,and we've been having such a
great time talking about thingsthat often aren't talked about
enough, like spiritual warfareand all that good stuff.
(01:55):
But today I wanted to talk abit about Renew Clinic, about
what it is, what it does, thepeople you've met, renew Clinic,
about what it is, what it does,the people you've met, how
those people have changedtransformation stories, all of
the things.
Because I know that addictionis everywhere around us.
(02:16):
It is something that either weourselves struggle with or
someone close to us struggleswith, struggle with, or someone
close to us struggles with.
It's not this far and fewbetween thing that just happens.
Recovery from addiction a lot ofus are addicted to our phones
right now, or addicted to foodor shopping.
(02:38):
Drugs, alcohol, pornography,you name it.
Drugs, alcohol, pornography,you name it.
There are poles to these thingsand to darkness as well.
It's not an easy road, and so Iwould love for you to share
more as we get started.
(02:59):
Just about Renew Clinic whatdrew you to Renew Clinic, what's
your story with Renew and tellus a little bit about how you
help others.
What it looks like, what thatlooks like at Renew.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Sure.
So in the last podcast I gavemy story about just absolute
rebellion from 12 years old tillabout 18, of a lot of
incarceration.
18 of a lot of incarcerationusing drugs, promiscuity, having
an abortion, a lot of justtragic things that I went
(03:32):
through as a kid.
And then the Lord reached mewhen I was in jail and continued
to reach me even when I got outand you know, he gave me a
purpose.
There was a reason that hepulled me out of the mud and put
me on a rock and told me heloved me and forgave me of my
sins and died for me and it'sreally to proclaim his name
(03:54):
until the day I die.
I truly believe that and themission field that he's put me
in continually and I guess I'vejust been drawn to the mental
health field, the addictionrecovery field and up until five
years ago, becoming thedirector of Renew Clinic, I
(04:15):
worked in the secular world.
You know I worked for DCS.
I've worked for variousbehavioral health care companies
and I always, always, alwaysstruggled as a Christian, having
this powerful encounter withChrist and knowing that he is
(04:38):
the answer.
And I don't mean to sound tooreductionistic or just give it
like an oversimplified, you knowBible Christian answer when I
say this.
But he is truly the answer forthe needs of our soul, our lives
, our bodies.
I mean he is everything.
And whenever I realize thatit's hard, you can't unsee, that
(05:00):
you know, you can't unseerecognizing Jesus as Lord, you
know that's just that becomesyour full reality.
And so whenever I was workingin the secular industries and
there's a lot of um, you knowmeta narratives and belief
systems and ideologies,philosophies, worldviews that
(05:23):
are not biblical worldviews andI did have a biblical worldview
or that are antithetical to thegospel, I really struggled and
you know working.
I would say that the mentalhealth industry, the addiction
recovery industry, is in large,very progressive New Age.
(05:47):
The New Age has very muchinfluenced psychology, clinical
work, even the medical industry.
Eastern mysticism has also verymuch influenced, especially
like the mental health world.
I remember going to conferencesand we would have seminars on
(06:11):
mindfulness and chakras andbiofeedback, which biofeedback
isn't necessarily a bad thing,you know, in practice, but it
can get very new, agey and justyou know these are spiritual
practices.
They want to treat it as asecular practice, but they are
spiritual in nature and peopleare opening themselves up to
(06:33):
spiritual practices when they dothese things, things like yoga.
You know, this is all just likepart of the mental health world
, and so, as a Christian andthis is all just like part of
the mental health world, and so,as a Christian, being
surrounded by this and peoplewho have spent many, many years
of their education going tocolleges that teach this you
(06:54):
know most people even workingthere there's a few people with
a biblical worldview, but Iwould say most people did not I
felt very frustrated.
(07:27):
But I know that God had calledme to this state, the Regional
Faith-Based CommunityCoordinator, and basically what
that position was.
It was a position created bythe state to work with the faith
community.
A lot of people think thatmeans Christianity, but it's
actually all faiths because it'sthrough the state.
(07:47):
It's a government initiative tobring education into the, I
would say, the faith community,but primarily the church, bring
education from the secular worldto teach about mental health,
addiction.
It almost and I need to becareful what I say because I
(08:09):
have good friends that still dothis, but to me it was.
You know, I believe the churchshould be leading the
conversation on addiction andhuman suffering and helping
people, and I don't think thatthe secular world is all bad.
I do think that there's a lotof wisdom and knowledge that
(08:31):
people can get in the seculararenas without being a Christian
, because you know, the Biblesays that creation declares the
truth and so that's why no one'sgoing to be without excuse.
So there's a lot of truth thatpeople can gather, a lot of ways
(08:53):
that we can observe humanbehavior and come to certain
conclusions to help people.
So I'm not saying the secularworld is all bad or don't know
anything, but it's not informedby Christ and so the solutions
often fall short of truebiblical freedom and spiritual
(09:17):
liberation.
But when I worked in thatposition, mayor Jacobs Glenn
Jacobs at the time he actuallyintroduced me to a group of
pastors who were pastors ofthese churches in Knoxville
several different churches,larger churches, crossing
(09:39):
denominational lines and thelead pastors came together, had
a conversation with Mayor Jacobsnational lines and the lead
pastors came together, had aconversation with Mayor Jacobs
and because he basically saidgovernment cannot fix this issue
talking about addiction, and hesaid and I want you all to do
something.
And so these churches cametogether, they started talking
with me because at the time Iwas working for the state, for
(10:00):
the faith-based initiatives andwe collectively kind of came up
with this dream of Renew Clinicand all of these churches put
their resources together andthey ended up hiring me to be
the director.
And so when they hired me,there was no website, no
building.
I was the one staff member Ineeded to get.
(10:22):
I was like I need to getbusiness cards, that's what I
needed.
We need a website.
You know?
I mean, it was like bareminimum and God has just really
made this ministry flourish in avery short period of time.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What year was that?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
So I was hired in 2020.
We opened the doors in 2020,May of 2021.
So we have been.
We've had our doors open forthree and a half years.
I've been on staff almost five.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
And I love that this is about a Christ-centered
avenue and way to combataddiction Because, as we talked
about last week, there is such adark side to addiction, a
spiritual warfare side to this,that we're in a battle.
(11:24):
Many of the folks that arecoming through your doors and
that are looking for help,they're gone through the darkest
of dark Right and I don't knowhow that's combated without the
Lord.
It's interesting you mentionedthe secular health space.
(11:45):
You and I had talked and I'vetalked about this episode on the
podcast before, about anepisode on the Confessionals
podcast where a psychologist,psychiatrist, whatever his role
was was working withschizophrenic patients and
unknowingly discovered that,whoa, there's a spiritual
(12:05):
component to this and it was notsomething that.
And actually there's been acouple of different podcasts
I've listened to with mentalhealth professionals that have
said the same thing where themental health world is not
talking about the spiritual,they're not talking about the
(12:28):
influence that our spirit hasover our minds and our bodies,
and through this experience,they're trying to come at it
from this prescription worldviewthat, oh, something is
imbalanced.
We're not going to test whatit's, for we have no idea what
(12:48):
is imbalanced in your brain.
Well, we have some guesseswe're going to put some
speculation out there.
Try this pill.
Oh, by the way, it mightactually create suicidal
thoughts or more depression, butjust try it out, see if it
helps.
And I think that it does such adisservice to people.
(13:11):
You know all these women.
You know I'm all about birthstuff.
I love talking about birth.
All these women go to thedoctor after they've had a baby
and perhaps they're experiencingsome postpartum depression and
they're like here, take a pill,take a pill, you'll be all
better.
And we're not addressing thewhole human.
Did she just go through atraumatic birth experience?
(13:34):
Was she not heard during herbirth?
Was she physically assaulted orsexually assaulted during her
birth?
Because chances are sheprobably was.
It's such a common thing.
But we don't see it that waybecause we're so dissociated and
separated from the wholeprocess and the things that
(13:56):
happen to us in those spaces arenormalized and we are groomed
for years from the teenage yearswhen they have us go into these
OBs and they're checking ourcervix we're groomed into
thinking that it's normal andokay for someone to stick their
hand up there.
And then it comes to birth andwe're traumatized by that but
don't realize that it's justbecause that's not supposed to
(14:17):
happen, because I like to sayguess what?
The baby's going to come out.
Whether someone sticks theirhand out or not, the baby comes
out.
Let you know.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So there's a lot of layers tothis.
Right, there is and I thinkthat you're really hitting on
something that a problem thatwe've seen is that you know
these mental health andaddiction issues in the secular
(14:47):
recovery world.
I would say the meta-narrativeis addiction is a brain disease.
It's not a moral or sin issue.
That's what they literally say.
We'll literally say it's abrain disease, it's not a moral
or sin issue.
And I mean philosophically, thatis way too reductionistic
because, like you said, itdoesn't treat the whole person.
(15:07):
We're not just a brain andactually there's been a debate
in neuroscience for the past 20years on, you know, asking the
question what does it mean to bea human?
Are we just a brain or do wehave a soul?
And the atheist with aDarwinian worldview, who
(15:30):
believes we're just a high formof animal and this is all an
accident, would say that we area brain that came together
accidentally over billions ofyears and the philosophical
implications of that really isthat there's really no meaning
or purpose to anything ifthey're going to be
(15:55):
intellectually consistent,philosophically consistent, but
that humans are basically a highform of the animal with
neurobiological impulses.
Therefore they're not morallyon the hook for anything and the
best thing we can do is try toget them to a level of
functioning Forget flourishingjust a level of functioning
(16:20):
Because they've basically beencondescended down to a brain
with a disease.
They don't have a choice, whichkeeps them in bondage, which
removes choice, which alsoremoves freedom.
And I think it's actually adehumanizing conversation that
(16:52):
addictions of brain disease andon a moral or sin issue that is
actually propagated and proppedup.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
To quote reduce stigma with a dick.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Welcome to zoom, yeah To.
Yeah.
We're having a party at 1111.
But it's an attempt to reducestigma.
But I find it to be, we find itat Renew Clinic to be very
stigmatizing because it places alabel on people and it also
reduces what it means to behuman down to a brain, without
(17:20):
choice.
You know it.
We have a soul and if addictionis truly it's always been said,
even in aannna, which isn'tchrist-centered, but it's always
said it's always been said thatit is a spiritual disease and
if it's a spiritual disease youcan't.
And the same people who who arein aa saying it's a spiritual
(17:41):
disease are the same peoplepropagating that it's a brain
disease.
So you can't have both.
There's inconsistencies there.
But to say that it's aspiritual disease, what does it
mean to have spiritualliberation?
And there's a lot of differentideas about what true spiritual
liberation is.
And to the Christian, spiritualliberation is only through
(18:04):
Jesus Christ.
And so you know, these areactually some of the
conversations that we feelcalled to engage in with the
secular community.
We find that the secular worldis a mission field, even the
already recovered world.
There's a recovery communityout there that isn't necessarily
(18:26):
Christ-centered.
That's also a mission field toreach with the gospel Like you
don't.
It's not a higher power, youdon't have to just settle there.
You can actually know him.
You can know the living God,and it's such good news to know
him because he actually put onflesh and walk this earth.
He's not some carved out imagein your mind that agrees with
(18:48):
you all the time Like it'sbetter than that, and so I think
that that's part of our missionfield as well is to kind of
push back against some of thesemeta narratives that are just so
easily acceptable accepted,against some of these meta
narratives that are just soeasily acceptable.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Accepted, yeah, because I I mean the thing that
we hear a lot in just regularconversation is well, someone
just has a disease.
They're just an addict, they're.
They're just, they have thisdisease.
We don't know how to explain it, we don't know why they're,
they're just one of the unluckyones that has a disease.
Oh also, the grandma had it,the uncle had it.
(19:30):
Yeah, it's genetic, it's agenetic disease.
But what about the wholeperson's life, the whole story,
the grandma's life, the uncle'slife?
You know, there's so much moreto addiction than I feel that
(19:50):
mainstream makes it out to be.
Yeah, then the physical side,yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So there are like some physical realities that
could be interesting.
You know, like epigenetics ispretty interesting when you look
into it and um and andaddiction does affect the brain.
You can see it on a brain scan.
But that's still even.
But still, to interpretaddiction as just what you see
(20:19):
on a brain scan is still way too.
That's a philosophical statementto say it's not a scientific
one, it's a philosophical oneand it's reducing people down to
, it's too reductionistic,because there's so much.
There's an unseen realm,there's a physical body, there's
a mind, um, I mean, there are,there's so many moving parts to
(20:45):
addiction and we believe atRenew Clinic that addiction
foundationally is misguidedworship.
So when people are running to asubstance constantly, it's a
form of escapism which youpointed on, which you pointed to
(21:06):
earlier.
There's a lot of differentforms of escapism, but addiction
is running and attachingourselves to something, bonding
ourselves to something otherthan God, for comfort, for
pleasure, for satisfaction, andit's also psychologically an
avoidance disorder.
(21:26):
It's avoiding pain, it's abonding disorder and an
avoidance disorderpsychologically.
But spiritually it's misguidedworship and the way to spiritual
liberation is to point peopleto true worship of Christ and
obeying Him and living for him,and that's a very simple way to
(21:47):
put it.
There's a lot there to it.
There's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
It's an awesome way to put it.
I feel like you really said alot in a very condensed way.
That explains a lot of this.
I mean, especially what pops inmy mind was pornography
addiction, and it's an escape.
It's a way that people areescaping their reality or even
(22:12):
substance abuse like smokingmarijuana.
They're just escaping ratherthan facing emotion, talking
about what they're feeling,talking about, they just escape.
I mean, you could even putsmoking cigarettes in that
category, right, Because it's anaddictive substance.
That's just a couple minutes ofsomeone checking out and
(22:34):
escaping their life.
So that is a very it was agreat explanation.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Well, it could also point to like a longing, a
longing to connect, you know, alonging to feel okay in this
world, a longing to have some.
I mean, it can also point tosome longings that aren't
necessarily bad longings.
We're just going to the wrongthing to get it, you know and
(23:02):
you know.
And so, yeah, I just thinkaddiction is way more complex.
People are way more complex,because we're not just a high
form of animal, we're a low formof angel, and tell me more
about that.
Yeah, so Dr Cofield, he's aclinical psychologist.
(23:23):
He's been on our board for awhile, but he's also a pastor
Brilliant man, but he often usesthat term.
That a lot of times you knowthe secular world, the way you
view what it means to be human,is actually going to determine
treatment and how you value theperson sitting in front of you.
(23:46):
So a lot of times you know withfrom a darwinian worldview
which is what a lot of the youknow, the the more secular
industry derives from, um isthat we're just a high form of
animal that has evolved.
(24:06):
I mean, we've evolved from apes, you know, and but biblically
we're actually a low form ofangel, and so that's why the
Christian worldview gives somuch more dignity to what it
means to be human.
I mean we believe in the ImagoDei, that people are created in
(24:27):
the image of God you know, and,yeah, that also includes that we
have choices and we're moralagents and we sin, which is
something that a secularist oran atheist would say doesn't
(24:47):
matter or is not really at playhere and would get people off
the hook for being moral agents.
But the way that the secularworld values humans is far more
dehumanizing than how aChristian um, than than the
(25:10):
Christian value of the humanbeing um, which is we're
actually in the made in theimage of God.
So um, treatment looks verydifferent whenever you hold
people capable instead ofincapable.
You know, we we want to takepeople not just from dysfunction
(25:30):
to function, but fromfunctioning to flourishing,
which is that true spiritualliberation which is in Christ.
When we, when we receive theforgiveness of sin, which is
what everybody needs, we allhave a conscience, and I think a
lot of people use drugs toobecause of guilt.
Things they've done they wantto forget things that have been
(25:53):
done to them is so much moresatisfying and complete when it
comes to all of the needs of thehuman psyche and the soul.
The christian worldviewprovides those needs, whereas
the secular worldview does not.
(26:14):
So that's.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It's very interesting .
I've never heard thatcorrelation of humans being
lower than angels.
I did a little searching on theside here as you were chatting,
because I'm like where's thescripture on this?
And it does say in Psalm 8,what is man that you are mindful
(26:39):
of him and the son of man, thatyou visit him?
For you have made him a littlelower than the angels and you
have crowned him with glory andhonor.
And then this is repeated againin Hebrews two, seven, and
that's very.
I'm so blown away andfascinated by this now.
I'm going to have to look into awhole other podcast.
(27:00):
Yeah, a whole other podcast now,because I, you know, I've I've
heard a lot of people say, whensomeone dies, you know they're
like, oh, they're an angel now,and it's like this thing that
people say to make themselvesfeel better about whoever died,
and I'm like, well, actuallythey didn't become an angel.
Angels are different.
(27:22):
They're a different spiritualbeing, and the purpose of an
angel is they spend eternityworshiping God.
We're, we're created in hisimage, you know.
So it's.
That was such an interestingcorrelation for me, like you
know, to that we're lower angels, lower than angels.
So anyway, I'm just, I thinkit's cool, I'm nerding out about
(27:46):
something new, but I love yourmission and these values that
you guys are are really pointingto, and I'd love to hear a
little bit more about whataddictions are people struggling
with that they're coming torenew.
Yeah, I believe it's a programthat you're doing in person,
(28:11):
right?
They're coming a couple of daysa week and it's group sessions
where you guys are having theseconversations together, but then
there's also, are thereone-to-one kind of sessions?
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat part that part Sure.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So we also believe before I get to that we also
believe that treatment can betoo reductionistic.
Obviously in the clinical world, also in the faith world,
sometimes there is a stigmaagainst biblical counseling
because sometimes a biblicalcounselor can just give an
oversimplified Bible answer tovery complex trauma issue and
(28:58):
that can't be helpful.
But also on the clinical worldit can just be.
Humans can be reduced down tojust biological or
neurobiological.
Two ends of the spectrum here,yeah, and so Renew Clinic is
very much committed to, as yousaid before, treating the whole
person and which really I thinkis biblical.
(29:23):
I mean, that's the truebiblical way to do it.
If you're going to do, ifyou're doing really good
clinical work, you're doing itthe biblical way.
You know, yeah, and I don'tthink that you know, clinical
knowledge is just like extratruth out there outside of the
Bible, because all truth belongsto God and he has provided
insight.
Now the clinical world can takeinto some pretty wonky new age
(29:47):
places, but overall new ageplaces, but overall the medical
wisdom, the clinical wisdom thathas been given to help mankind,
all truth belongs to God, butthat can also get those sectors
can also get wonky.
So I say all that to say we are, we have we, our staff has a
(30:11):
biblical worldview.
So when I'm hiring people, whenwe're interviewing people, we
want to make sure that our staffhas a biblical worldview.
But we also have clinical staffwith a biblical worldview and
so we are biblicallyfoundational and clinically
informed because we're not goingto give oversimplified Bible
(30:35):
answers to very complex traumas.
We're also not going to excuseaway personal responsibility
because of trauma.
You know it's both.
It's both.
And for people to really reachfreedom they need both the
compassion of the sin that'sbeen committed against them and
(30:58):
to help them process the sinsthat have been committed against
them, but also how they'rethinking and reasoning and
rationing through the world,while also holding them
accountable for their ownactions and behavior and how
they're showing up in the world.
Both are needed and it reallytakes the guidance of the Holy
(31:18):
Spirit to know what's needed inthe moment.
You know, but I have a greatstaff and a great team.
But our treatment portion wemeet three days a week Monday,
wednesday and Friday from 5 to 8pm.
So it's nine hours of intensivegroup therapy for a minimum of
(31:40):
12 weeks, I would say.
And our participants also getan hour of one-on-one counseling
, marital counseling, familysupport we have a family support
director, jennifer Rokiski.
She works with the families,does an amazing job.
We also have a director ofbiblical counseling, jeff
Maitland.
I love Jeff.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I need to have Jeff on this podcast.
He and I have had some goodchats about spiritual warfare.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Oh, totally, he's great, he's a wealth of
knowledge, absolutely.
But some of the issues thatpeople have are theological
issues.
It's not just trauma, it's, youknow, it's the age old question
if God's good, why evil?
You know, and not everyclinical counselor can answer
that question.
(32:26):
You know, they're trained todeal with the mind and the
emotions.
So we also have the biblicalcounselor on staff to be able to
answer some of those questions,some of the apologetic,
theological questions.
So both are needed to work as ateam.
We don't think it's just theclinical personnel that's going
(32:47):
to help people or just thebiblical personnel that's going
to help people.
It's going to be both that areall filled with the Holy Spirit
to help our people.
So that's the more like IOPintensive, outpatient portion.
I would say that's the mainfunction of Renew is the
treatment.
But, like I said, I also thinkwe're called to speak to these
(33:09):
metanarratives through podcastsand conferences and things like
that, educational workshops, tomake a case for Christ in a
secular world and to reachpeople for Christ in the already
recovered community.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I love that.
That is amazing.
Now there are kind of threebuckets that I wanted to touch
on.
I'm going to leave it to you totell you know, to kind of make
the decision on which way to go.
First, because there are thosethat may be struggling with
addiction now.
They are trying to walk withChrist but they are struggling
(33:47):
with addiction or maybe theyrecently went through recovery.
That's kind of the second.
And then the third are thosethat are like me, that have
friends and family that aregoing through struggles right
now and don't know how to helpthose around us.
Yeah, you know, I'd love foryou to kind of share maybe a
(34:07):
little bit of advice or thoughtsor encouragement for those
groups and however order feelsright to you so let's start with
the families.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
The family members are often the forgotten piece of
the puzzle, and addiction isnot.
It never just affects oneperson, because we're not
created to be alone, we're notcreated to just be neutral
beings walking around.
Just you know addictions onlyhurting myself, like no one is
(34:42):
neutral.
You're either giving life ortaking life.
Help, you know living for thekingdom or living for the flesh,
or you know so.
There's no neutral ground.
So our actions affect people,our choices affect people and
families are affected.
(35:05):
It does not just stop with theaddicted loved one and
oftentimes the family membersdon't know how to help and it
feels like an insane viciouscycle that they don't know
what's helping, what's hurting.
Nothing makes sense to them.
(35:26):
They don't know how to makesense of addiction.
They don't know how to makesense of addiction.
They think a lot of times,especially from the Christian
community, because you knowwe're taught to have Christian
charity but that can also turninto like enabling.
So family members don't realizethat they're actually hurting
(35:53):
the situation by giving theirloved one money and continuing
to bail them out of jail andgiving them a place to sleep at
night when they're still usingand I understand, I cannot
imagine, especially for theparent who has a child, and
you're going against everynatural inclination that you
have to care for the needs ofyour child, who could be
addicted to drugs, and to tellthem, no, you can't come in the
house and it's cold outside.
Or to say, no, I'm not givingyou money, and the child's
(36:17):
saying I'm starving, I'm hungry,you know?
I mean, I can only imagine whatthat's like to have to draw
those types of lines andoftentimes, if and I'm just
using this as an example with aparent-child relationship
oftentimes if a parent has achild who is very deep into
(36:40):
their addiction and they'vegiven them money, they've bailed
them out, it is not helping,it's continuing a vicious cycle.
They have to get to a pointwhere they refuse to give them
money, they refuse to help themin any way.
I'm not saying refuse love orencouragement or presence, I'm
(37:01):
just saying refusing to helpthem feel comfortable in their
addiction anymore for not onemore second.
That is a very difficult thingfor families to have to walk
through and it's something that,unless you've had to do it,
unless you've had to walkthrough that, it's really hard
(37:21):
to understand.
But that is not the naturalresponse for people and so I
think it's paramount that if afamily has a family member, has
a loved one who is strugglingwith addiction, to find a
support system to find peoplewho are walking through it and
(37:46):
to find wisdom from people whohave walked through it and have
some wisdom and can help them,and to trust the wisdom of
others, you know.
But it makes the whole familysick and so you know there's
also work that the family willlikely have to do their own
internal work to be healthy andto know how to love their
(38:12):
addicted loved one in a healthyway and to be ready right for
that hope, that recovery thatyou know, that we're hoping for.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
But that's great advice.
That really is great advice,because it's like if you're
trying to do anything in life,you're going to research and
you're going to try to meetlike-minded people that are
working towards that cause.
I hate to always use birth foreverything, but I'm gonna if
you're going to have a homebirth.
You're going to join home birthcommunities to learn from other
home birthers on how to do itRight.
(38:49):
Right, if you are experiencinga loved one that's going through
addiction, finds community withothers that have walked that
path before that, can you know,help, help, guide you through
that?
That's great advice.
Yeah, cause I think so many ofus feel like we're just walking
along in isolation, mm-hmm.
(39:11):
You know, and I know that AAhas a thing you know right.
They have like a thing for thefamilies or whatever.
Al-anon.
Yeah, so I can guarantee thereare Christian communities of
people that are doing similarthings.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah, Right, and we are at Renew, I mean we.
So we, we welcome familymembers, even if their loved one
is not going through treatment,I mean, and it's a free service
, it's just a community thatthat I would say that we're
building as well, of familymembers, that you know, they're
(39:49):
just man and it's helpful justto hear and be in life with
other people who are goingthrough it with you too, you
know, because, like you said, itcan feel so isolating.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Absolutely.
I know my sister is not heretoday she is my co-host and is
here a lot of the times but sheactually has shared on the show
before and this is something shewould be comfortable sharing if
she was here.
She experienced eatingdisorders.
She struggled with bulimia andanorexia for many years and she
(40:22):
feels in many ways that it's aform of addiction in its own way
, because she became addicted toher response to stress and
whatever the case might be washer eating disorder and she
actually had changed her majorbecause she wanted to go down
the path of becoming a mentalhealth therapist at some point,
(40:48):
specifically for the families.
Yeah, because of how hard it wasfor her to go through and none
of us know what to do.
You know she's going through itand we're like what, what do we
do to help you?
Right, and all of us weresaying these things.
You know we wanted to help butwe couldn't.
We didn't have any tools to beequipped with that.
(41:10):
Now, she didn't end up goingdown that path of pursuing that
degree, but now she gets to talkabout it on the podcast and
share with others, which is good, it's a positive thing.
But it's just an example ofanother area where families need
support, too.
It's the person is goingthrough it, but it's not an
example of another area wherefamilies need support, too.
(41:30):
It's the person.
The person is going through it,but it's not an isolation.
There are others that areimpacted by what is going on
with that person and for me,being so, she and I are very
close and being so close andwatching her, I thought she was
going to die, like I.
I literally was watching herkill herself, and that actually
is what it came down to was Ididn't know what to do.
(41:52):
I was at my wits end.
She was in college at the timewhen I finally said I can't, I
can't talk to you anymore.
Like we we talked every day,you know, texted all day.
I said I can until you get help.
Like I can't watch you die.
Right, and that was the thing.
She was, like I'm not going tolose my sister and not talk to
(42:16):
her.
And she finally started goingto a program for her eating
disorder and that was, you know,a time where we were able to
move through that together, butI didn't have the tools to help
her.
I just knew that she neededhelp, and it would have been
really cool if I had supportback then too, you know yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
We're talking 20 years ago.
So yeah Again, probably didn'thave the internet barely.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I know, I mean, if you think about it like our, our
smartphones, I mean, I mean, ifyou think about it like our,
our smartphones, I mean I hadthe, I had the Nokia, that you
could change the, the, theplates out like the face plates
out.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
You, know the little Nokia phone.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, Mine was blue Baby blue, yeah, all kinds of
different face plates for thatthing, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Absolutely, absolutely, but it's, you know
now it's for.
A lot of people can find thesetypes of communities on Facebook
, facebook groups.
Facebook is funny, it's likethe new forums.
You remember forums back in theday.
I find that with Facebook a lot, that there are mom groups,
there's homeschool mom groups,there's women that are
(43:32):
recovering from the copper IUDgroup I'm in that one.
Oh yeah, copper toxicity is areal thing and it can make give,
it can literally give womenanxiety, and then women go to
the doctor and they prescribethem drugs for anxiety and
(43:52):
really it's the copper that'sleaching out into their bodies.
There's also support groups forthe plastic one, mirena,
because that one can causesuicidal ideation.
There's all kinds of supportgroups out there.
So all these things are justhappening to our human bodies as
we're being, you know, told.
(44:14):
These things that are distortionand it's kind of a common
thread that we've talked abouton this podcast is God's design
for our bodies and our health,to look at the body holistically
(44:36):
and what each organ does towork together to give us life
and health.
And of course it's notsomething that we're promised.
But we don't help ourselveswhen we get involved in
pharmaceuticals that impact ourliver, impact our thyroid, that
impact our liver, impact ourthyroid, impact our hormones or
our endocrine system.
We end up creating problemsthrough that, that it takes
(45:06):
sometimes a veil being droppedto even see it, cause I didn't
for a long time.
I mean, I took every birthcontrol that existed as a
believer, didn't think thatthere was anything wrong with it
until I paid for it physicallyand mentally, and started to see
that it was just a trick.
You know it's just this lie thatI'm sold, and guess what?
(45:26):
Learning about our fertility isactually a lot easier.
I mean, I was 30, whateveryears old when I first got the
book Taking Charge of yourFertility.
I was like, wow, god is verysmart.
He designed our bodiesextremely well.
We are on a cycle that ispredictable.
All we have to do is payattention.
But I digress.
(45:50):
Okay, so family's advice is geta support system.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Get a support system and don'thide.
You know what's going on inyour, in your home.
Reach out to a trusted friend,and sometimes that's just the
first step for somebody.
Is you know, the first step forthe addict is to confess right,
(46:17):
to admit that I'm powerlessover my addiction.
My life's become unmanageable.
Only a power greater thanmyself can restore me to sanity.
Is, you know, part of the 12steps.
Obviously that's Christ, but thefamily member has to do that
too.
You know, our lives have becomeunmanageable.
This isn't working.
This is an addiction, you know,and sometimes that's hard for
(46:39):
the family member to actuallyconfess as well.
I think everybody has to get tothat point and for some it's
harder than others.
But to, yeah, find that trustedperson, talk to them, get a
support system, get a supportgroup, um of of people who are
going through it, people thathave gone through it, where they
have that wisdom.
(46:59):
Pray, pray, pray, pray.
My mom prayed for me and um,and I believe God heard her
prayers.
So you know it is ultimatelythe Lord that will.
It takes a divine interventionfor anybody to take their hands
(47:20):
off of that drug and to wantsomething better, to want
something new.
So just pray, pray, pray.
So that would be my advice,okay.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Okay, pray, pray, so that that would be my advice.
Okay, Okay, and now?
What about those that maybe aregoing through a struggle with
addiction now haven't fullyrecognized it, or those who are
kind of in the recovery process?
Advice thoughts.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, so I mean so many different people are in
different places.
You know, you talk about, likethe stages of change.
Some people are incontemplation mode, some are in
pre-contemplation, some are inaction phase.
So people are going to be indifferent stages of like their
readiness to change um there's,there's.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Is there three stages ?
How many stages are there?
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Oh no, I think there's like four.
Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm blanking.
Hold on.
There's pre-contemplationcontemplation action.
I think there's four or five.
Hang on, let me pull this up.
But regardless, a lot of peoplestay in the pre-contemplation
phase for a long time, whichbasically hold on.
(48:39):
Let me pull up stages of change.
So there is here it ispre-contemplation contemplation,
preparation, maintenance andaction.
So a lot of people hang out inthe pre-contemplation stage for
a while and it says theindividual is not yet aware or
(49:03):
does not acknowledge the needfor change.
So if somebody is there, Iwould say my advice to that
person is if you have more thanone person in your life telling
you, hey, I think there's aproblem, or if you cannot enjoy
life or enjoy anything without asubstance, or if your life is
(49:32):
centered around how you're goingto get that substance, when
you're going to use thatsubstance, if that is the main
thing that you think about mostof the time, be willing to
consider that there is a problemand whether or not we
acknowledge it or not, that isnot what determines if there's a
(49:55):
problem or not, because a lotof times it's just our own
denial or personal resistance toactually seeing the truth.
But there's a lot of red flagsthat even a person in the
pre-contemplation stage canrecognize to be able to say,
okay, maybe there is a problemhere.
(50:17):
So the contemplation stage Iwould say most of the people
coming through our doors aregoing to be in contemplation or
preparation.
So they're aware.
So in contemplation, they'reaware of the need to change.
They're uncertain or undecidedabout taking action.
(50:38):
A lot of times people comethrough and they start treatment
because their probation officeris making them, or their job is
making them, or their wife'sabout to leave them, and they
become convinced as they are intreatment.
Oh wow, this really is aproblem.
And then some people come andthey are ready to change.
(51:01):
Even they're walking throughthe doors ready to change.
We just had a girl this week,her intake.
I mean, she's just so sick ofher choices, she's so sick of
doing the same old thing andthat's such a beautiful place to
be.
She's so broken.
She feels like you know, justso low in life right now.
But what a beautiful place tobe too.
(51:23):
I want to encourage thosepeople who are just like I'm
sick of my sin.
You know why do I keep doingthis?
Yeah, but what a beautiful andthat can also be a terrifying
place to be because yourecognize your inability to
change yourself.
But it can also be such abeautiful place because that's
(51:44):
often the place of surrender,and I want to encourage those
people.
Yeah, so there are five stagesof change.
Thank you, that's helpful.
Yeah, so there are five stagesof change.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Thank you, that's helpful.
I think that that's reallyhelpful to to just there's going
to be different places wherepeople are, and I think it's
important for all of us torecognize which which, whatever
side that is.
But you know, if this message isspeaking to someone listening
and perhaps you're strugglingwith something, reach out to
(52:16):
Renu, reach out to Sarah and I'msure if you're not in the
Knoxville area she can help youfind somebody in your area that
can help you through thesethings.
And you also have a podcast nowwe mentioned it last time
called the Waging War Podcast,and I'll link it in the show
notes.
But you guys have some greattopics on there.
(52:36):
I was listening to them earliertoday.
A couple of episodes Awesome,yeah, they are, but it's cool
because it's kind of a littlebit of everything.
But that's a great place forsomeone to get some biblical
perspective on.
You know what they're goingthrough.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
I mean it ranges from how do I forgive to, and you
know, struggling with sin andcan I lose my salvation to is
the Bible reliable?
Because these are allconversations that people are
having, coming through our doorsand are also having in the
recovery community.
I just had a conversation theother day with a couple of
people who work in the industry,asking about the reliability of
the Bible and I'm telling you,you know, I do believe that
(53:36):
we're missionaries called andthat's our mission field is to
this industry.
Because you know, you wouldn'tnormally piece put together like
this apologetic conversation ofthe historical reliability of
the Bible to addiction recovery.
But actually it's very muchentrenched because these
conversations are circulatingand the recovery community is
actually very infatuated withGnosticism and you know these,
(54:01):
the lost gospels, like thegospel of Thomas and the gospel
of Barnabas and Peter, and whichwere much later than the
gospels, and their hereticaltexts, and they were never
considered scripture.
But the addiction recoverycommunity is very much
infatuated with things like thisand we I happen to just have
(54:25):
inside knowledge of that, youknow, but on the outside people
wouldn't typically piece thosetwo together.
So on the podcast we addressthat.
You know, we address some ofthese conversations.
So that's great.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
It seems random, but it's not well, it's, it's all
stuff that's coming up which isimportant and you know,
obviously I'm not always thebiggest fan of statistics
because I know how skewed theyare.
Like, I love when I hearstatistics about home birth and
I'm like where was I in thisstudy?
Because I wasn't.
I didn't answer any survey, soyou, you know they're all skewed
(54:58):
.
But according to Americanaddiction centers, 48.5
Americans 48 million Americansage 12 and older battled a
substance use disorder in thepast year.
That's a lot of people.
That's a lot of people.
(55:19):
That is a lot.
That's only the people thatreported to this study right so
what is the actual number,because you know that takes
someone reporting this right.
That is a lot and that's 12 andolder 12 and older, 12 and
(55:39):
older.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
Almost 20 of americans, it says yeah, yeah,
so everybody knows somebodyright, yep I mean that's what
that number tells me.
That's why the family supportpiece is so important, because
everybody knows somebody withthat kind of statistic, with
that kind of, with that kind ofnumber of people are actually
using and have it and have it.
(56:00):
Those are people who are in thepreparation or contemplation
stage.
That doesn't even include thepre-contemplation people.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
No, no, cause they're not even ready to admit it,
they're not even there yet.
Yeah, it's probably 50% ofAmericans, yeah, yeah, so it's a
huge thing.
And I know last time we talkeda lot about the spiritual side
of things and this you know thatwe talked about it this time
too, because there's a lot ofthere's more factors to
(56:31):
addiction than just genetics,let's say right, it's true,
there's the spiritual side, thechildhood trauma side, there's
all of these facets and I lovethat you guys are addressing all
of it.
You know that Renew is lookingat the holistic person to get
through these things.
So you're a testament to whatrecovery looks like on the other
(56:54):
side, right?
So what is it like on the otherside?
Speaker 2 (56:58):
better, I would say well, yeah there's purpose,
there's freedom, there's joy,forgiveness meaning like dignity
, you know I I mean that's oneof our values is restoring
dignity.
You know.
That's why we want renew clintto be so nice.
Renew clint's a very nicebuilding.
It's feels really good, it'snicely decorated.
(57:18):
You Renew Clink to be so nice.
Renew Clink's a very nicebuilding, it feels really good,
it's nicely decorated.
We want people to feel likewe're honoring them.
You're walking through thesedoors and we want them to feel
honored and valued.
But going back to the spiritualwarfare piece, you know how many
people use drugs just tosilence the noise, use drugs
(57:40):
just to silence the noise, youknow, just to silence the
harassment.
Often I'm thinking of onesituation in particular.
This was not recent, but awhile ago.
I mean just haunted by thethings they've done, haunted and
(58:04):
I think, harassed, right,spiritually harassed by the
things that they've done andusing to silence that.
So is it really a brain disease?
I mean, whenever I give youthat situation, I mean does that
sound like a brain disease toyou?
No, that's not a brain disease.
That is somebody who ismedicating a spiritual
harassment.
(58:24):
They need the forgiveness ofChrist, they need to realize the
forgiveness in Christ so thatthat harassment can't harass
them anymore.
You know, beating them over thehead of the things that they've
done, that condemnation.
They're using drugs to silencethe condemnation, and that's why
Christ will satisfy that,because he will forgive them
(58:48):
freely.
And so that's why gosh themetanarratives in the secular
world.
I mean, I have a lot ofbrilliance there, there's a lot
of knowledge and wisdom, but itjust falls short of truly
satisfying the needs of thehuman soul and psyche.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Absolutely Well.
This has been awesome.
Are there any final thoughtsthat you wanted to share before
we close today, or tonight ortomorrow?
We just keep talking a littlelonger.
Speaker 2 (59:22):
I know right, I'm going to just fall asleep
talking.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Talk to us in your sleep.
I bet you can do it.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
You'll hear the secrets that I keep when I'm
talking in my sleep.
So I always want to encouragethe struggling Christian.
I always want to encourage thestruggling Christian, because
that was me for so long and Istill struggle.
I mean, I still do, but notlike I did, in the same way.
I'm not saying I never willagain either.
(59:53):
I'm not, I don't want to saythat, but I just want to.
I just want to encourage theone who is.
I don't want to say that, but Ijust want to.
I just want to encourage theone who is, who just feels as if
man, I just I keep doing thesame things.
I keep struggling with sin, I'mstruggling with addiction.
I you know, I don't know that Icould ever be saved, and I just
want to tell that person youcannot save yourself.
It is not the absence of sinthat gets you into heaven, it is
(01:00:20):
the blood of Christ.
And so the only thing you cando whenever you're at the end of
yourself and you cannot changeyourself, you can't fix yourself
, you can't make your thoughtsbetter, you can't stop, throw
yourself on Christ, and he isthe faithful one.
He's the faithful one and heknows.
It says what's impossible forman is possible with God.
(01:00:42):
It's impossible for you.
Truly, you recognize that.
That's why you're discouraged,because you recognize you
struggling Christian or personwho is not yet a Christian or is
struggling in their sin.
You are just simply recognizingthe reality.
You can't, you can't, butChrist can Throw yourself on him
(01:01:06):
.
When I say throw yourself onhim, I just mean trust in him,
like you would a parachute andyou're jumping out of a plane,
free fall and trust him to getyou to the ground safely.
His blood was spilled for you.
He is risen from the grave.
(01:01:26):
He's alive right now tointercede for you, to reveal
himself to you to comfort you.
Call on his name and I justwant to encourage the struggling
Christian or the strugglingperson that thinks that they're
just too far gone, and I'd saythat's my final word.
Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Amen, sister, I love it.
Amazing.
Sarah, thank you for joining mefor all of these hours that you
have spent with me.
I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
It's been fun.
Thank you, I really enjoyed it.
I really have.
Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Thank you Absolutely, and you can find Sarah at
RenewKnoxvillecom if you'relooking for Renew or again the
Waging War podcast or RenewClinic on YouTube and I'll link
everything in the show notes.
So please go to those notes andyou can click through.
It'll be easy.
But thank you all for tuning inand being on the journey with
us.
If you'd like to follow alongoutside the podcast, you can
(01:02:17):
join the mission on Instagram,facebook and YouTube at the
radiant mission.
And today we are going to closewith Romans, 12, verses nine
through 21.
It's a little longer one but Ilove it because Sarah shared it
with me and I think it'll be agood encouragement to those
listening today.
(01:02:38):
Love must be sincere.
Hate what is evil, cling towhat is good.
Be devoted to one another inlove.
Honor one another aboveyourselves.
Never be lacking in zeal butkeep your spiritual fervor
serving the Lord.
Be joyful in hope, patient inaffliction, faithful in prayer.
Share with the Lord's peoplewho are in need.
(01:02:59):
Practice hospitality.
Bless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse.
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Mourn with those who mourn.
Live in harmony with oneanother.
Do not be proud but be willingto associate with people of low
position.
Do not be conceited.
Do not repay anyone evil forevil.
(01:03:21):
Be careful to do what is rightin the eyes of everyone, if it
is possible.
As far as it depends on you,live at peace with everyone.
Do not take revenge, my dearfriends, but leave room for
God's wrath, for it is writtenit is mine to avenge.
I will repay, says the Lord.
On the contrary, we are wishingyou a radiant week and we'll
(01:04:01):
see you next time.
Bye, everyone.
The Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission podcast.
(00:34):
My name is Rebecca Toomey andwe are on a mission to encourage
and inspire you as you'renavigating through your life and
with your relationship withChrist.
We have been in a series onbeing countercultural in a
secular world and today I amwelcoming back a very special
guest.
Her name is Sarah Keel.
She is a wife, a mom, a loverof Jesus, and she is the
(00:54):
executive director at RenewClinic.
She joined us last week toshare her testimony.
We also talked extensivelyabout abortion and spiritual
warfare, so definitely listenback on last week's episode to
hear more about Sarah'stestimony and those topics that
kind of set the stage fortoday's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So, Sarah, thank you for coming back, or really for
staying up later to talk to me.
Oh, it's a joy, though it trulyis.
It's a joy and the Lord is ableto to sharpen our minds at any
part of the night, or yeah,that's right, he is 11.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
He is.
He gives us all the words, evenat night, even at night, so
it's a blessing, absolutely Well, I've loved hearing just all
the things about your journey,and we've been having such a
great time talking about thingsthat often aren't talked about
enough, like spiritual warfareand all that good stuff.
(01:55):
But today I wanted to talk abit about Renew Clinic, about
what it is, what it does, thepeople you've met, renew Clinic,
about what it is, what it does,the people you've met, how
those people have changedtransformation stories, all of
the things.
Because I know that addictionis everywhere around us.
(02:16):
It is something that either weourselves struggle with or
someone close to us struggleswith, struggle with, or someone
close to us struggles with.
It's not this far and fewbetween thing that just happens.
Recovery from addiction a lot ofus are addicted to our phones
right now, or addicted to foodor shopping.
(02:38):
Drugs, alcohol, pornography,you name it.
Drugs, alcohol, pornography,you name it.
There are poles to these thingsand to darkness as well.
It's not an easy road, and so Iwould love for you to share
more as we get started.
(02:59):
Just about Renew Clinic whatdrew you to Renew Clinic, what's
your story with Renew and tellus a little bit about how you
help others.
What it looks like, what thatlooks like at Renew.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Sure.
So in the last podcast I gavemy story about just absolute
rebellion from 12 years old tillabout 18, of a lot of
incarceration.
18 of a lot of incarcerationusing drugs, promiscuity, having
an abortion, a lot of justtragic things that I went
(03:32):
through as a kid.
And then the Lord reached mewhen I was in jail and continued
to reach me even when I got outand you know, he gave me a
purpose.
There was a reason that hepulled me out of the mud and put
me on a rock and told me heloved me and forgave me of my
sins and died for me and it'sreally to proclaim his name
(03:54):
until the day I die.
I truly believe that and themission field that he's put me
in continually and I guess I'vejust been drawn to the mental
health field, the addictionrecovery field and up until five
years ago, becoming thedirector of Renew Clinic, I
(04:15):
worked in the secular world.
You know I worked for DCS.
I've worked for variousbehavioral health care companies
and I always, always, alwaysstruggled as a Christian, having
this powerful encounter withChrist and knowing that he is
(04:38):
the answer.
And I don't mean to sound tooreductionistic or just give it
like an oversimplified, you knowBible Christian answer when I
say this.
But he is truly the answer forthe needs of our soul, our lives
, our bodies.
I mean he is everything.
And whenever I realize thatit's hard, you can't unsee, that
(05:00):
you know, you can't unseerecognizing Jesus as Lord, you
know that's just that becomesyour full reality.
And so whenever I was workingin the secular industries and
there's a lot of um, you knowmeta narratives and belief
systems and ideologies,philosophies, worldviews that
(05:23):
are not biblical worldviews andI did have a biblical worldview
or that are antithetical to thegospel, I really struggled and
you know working.
I would say that the mentalhealth industry, the addiction
recovery industry, is in large,very progressive New Age.
(05:47):
The New Age has very muchinfluenced psychology, clinical
work, even the medical industry.
Eastern mysticism has also verymuch influenced, especially
like the mental health world.
I remember going to conferencesand we would have seminars on
(06:11):
mindfulness and chakras andbiofeedback, which biofeedback
isn't necessarily a bad thing,you know, in practice, but it
can get very new, agey and justyou know these are spiritual
practices.
They want to treat it as asecular practice, but they are
spiritual in nature and peopleare opening themselves up to
(06:33):
spiritual practices when they dothese things, things like yoga.
You know, this is all just likepart of the mental health world
, and so, as a Christian andthis is all just like part of
the mental health world, and so,as a Christian, being
surrounded by this and peoplewho have spent many, many years
of their education going tocolleges that teach this you
(06:54):
know most people even workingthere there's a few people with
a biblical worldview, but Iwould say most people did not I
felt very frustrated.
(07:27):
But I know that God had calledme to this state, the Regional
Faith-Based CommunityCoordinator, and basically what
that position was.
It was a position created bythe state to work with the faith
community.
A lot of people think thatmeans Christianity, but it's
actually all faiths because it'sthrough the state.
(07:47):
It's a government initiative tobring education into the, I
would say, the faith community,but primarily the church, bring
education from the secular worldto teach about mental health,
addiction.
It almost and I need to becareful what I say because I
(08:09):
have good friends that still dothis, but to me it was.
You know, I believe the churchshould be leading the
conversation on addiction andhuman suffering and helping
people, and I don't think thatthe secular world is all bad.
I do think that there's a lotof wisdom and knowledge that
(08:31):
people can get in the seculararenas without being a Christian
, because you know, the Biblesays that creation declares the
truth and so that's why no one'sgoing to be without excuse.
So there's a lot of truth thatpeople can gather, a lot of ways
(08:53):
that we can observe humanbehavior and come to certain
conclusions to help people.
So I'm not saying the secularworld is all bad or don't know
anything, but it's not informedby Christ and so the solutions
often fall short of truebiblical freedom and spiritual
(09:17):
liberation.
But when I worked in thatposition, mayor Jacobs Glenn
Jacobs at the time he actuallyintroduced me to a group of
pastors who were pastors ofthese churches in Knoxville
several different churches,larger churches, crossing
(09:39):
denominational lines and thelead pastors came together, had
a conversation with Mayor Jacobsnational lines and the lead
pastors came together, had aconversation with Mayor Jacobs
and because he basically saidgovernment cannot fix this issue
talking about addiction, and hesaid and I want you all to do
something.
And so these churches cametogether, they started talking
with me because at the time Iwas working for the state, for
(10:00):
the faith-based initiatives andwe collectively kind of came up
with this dream of Renew Clinicand all of these churches put
their resources together andthey ended up hiring me to be
the director.
And so when they hired me,there was no website, no
building.
I was the one staff member Ineeded to get.
(10:22):
I was like I need to getbusiness cards, that's what I
needed.
We need a website.
You know?
I mean, it was like bareminimum and God has just really
made this ministry flourish in avery short period of time.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What year was that?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
So I was hired in 2020.
We opened the doors in 2020,May of 2021.
So we have been.
We've had our doors open forthree and a half years.
I've been on staff almost five.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
And I love that this is about a Christ-centered
avenue and way to combataddiction Because, as we talked
about last week, there is such adark side to addiction, a
spiritual warfare side to this,that we're in a battle.
(11:24):
Many of the folks that arecoming through your doors and
that are looking for help,they're gone through the darkest
of dark Right and I don't knowhow that's combated without the
Lord.
It's interesting you mentionedthe secular health space.
(11:45):
You and I had talked and I'vetalked about this episode on the
podcast before, about anepisode on the Confessionals
podcast where a psychologist,psychiatrist, whatever his role
was was working withschizophrenic patients and
unknowingly discovered that,whoa, there's a spiritual
(12:05):
component to this and it was notsomething that.
And actually there's been acouple of different podcasts
I've listened to with mentalhealth professionals that have
said the same thing where themental health world is not
talking about the spiritual,they're not talking about the
(12:28):
influence that our spirit hasover our minds and our bodies,
and through this experience,they're trying to come at it
from this prescription worldviewthat, oh, something is
imbalanced.
We're not going to test whatit's, for we have no idea what
(12:48):
is imbalanced in your brain.
Well, we have some guesseswe're going to put some
speculation out there.
Try this pill.
Oh, by the way, it mightactually create suicidal
thoughts or more depression, butjust try it out, see if it
helps.
And I think that it does such adisservice to people.
(13:11):
You know all these women.
You know I'm all about birthstuff.
I love talking about birth.
All these women go to thedoctor after they've had a baby
and perhaps they're experiencingsome postpartum depression and
they're like here, take a pill,take a pill, you'll be all
better.
And we're not addressing thewhole human.
Did she just go through atraumatic birth experience?
(13:34):
Was she not heard during herbirth?
Was she physically assaulted orsexually assaulted during her
birth?
Because chances are sheprobably was.
It's such a common thing.
But we don't see it that waybecause we're so dissociated and
separated from the wholeprocess and the things that
(13:56):
happen to us in those spaces arenormalized and we are groomed
for years from the teenage yearswhen they have us go into these
OBs and they're checking ourcervix we're groomed into
thinking that it's normal andokay for someone to stick their
hand up there.
And then it comes to birth andwe're traumatized by that but
don't realize that it's justbecause that's not supposed to
(14:17):
happen, because I like to sayguess what?
The baby's going to come out.
Whether someone sticks theirhand out or not, the baby comes
out.
Let you know.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So there's a lot of layers tothis.
Right, there is and I thinkthat you're really hitting on
something that a problem thatwe've seen is that you know
these mental health andaddiction issues in the secular
(14:47):
recovery world.
I would say the meta-narrativeis addiction is a brain disease.
It's not a moral or sin issue.
That's what they literally say.
We'll literally say it's abrain disease, it's not a moral
or sin issue.
And I mean philosophically, thatis way too reductionistic
because, like you said, itdoesn't treat the whole person.
(15:07):
We're not just a brain andactually there's been a debate
in neuroscience for the past 20years on, you know, asking the
question what does it mean to bea human?
Are we just a brain or do wehave a soul?
And the atheist with aDarwinian worldview, who
(15:30):
believes we're just a high formof animal and this is all an
accident, would say that we area brain that came together
accidentally over billions ofyears and the philosophical
implications of that really isthat there's really no meaning
or purpose to anything ifthey're going to be
(15:55):
intellectually consistent,philosophically consistent, but
that humans are basically a highform of the animal with
neurobiological impulses.
Therefore they're not morallyon the hook for anything and the
best thing we can do is try toget them to a level of
functioning Forget flourishingjust a level of functioning
(16:20):
Because they've basically beencondescended down to a brain
with a disease.
They don't have a choice, whichkeeps them in bondage, which
removes choice, which alsoremoves freedom.
And I think it's actually adehumanizing conversation that
(16:52):
addictions of brain disease andon a moral or sin issue that is
actually propagated and proppedup.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
To quote reduce stigma with a dick.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Welcome to zoom, yeah To.
Yeah.
We're having a party at 1111.
But it's an attempt to reducestigma.
But I find it to be, we find itat Renew Clinic to be very
stigmatizing because it places alabel on people and it also
reduces what it means to behuman down to a brain, without
(17:20):
choice.
You know it.
We have a soul and if addictionis truly it's always been said,
even in aannna, which isn'tchrist-centered, but it's always
said it's always been said thatit is a spiritual disease and
if it's a spiritual disease youcan't.
And the same people who who arein aa saying it's a spiritual
(17:41):
disease are the same peoplepropagating that it's a brain
disease.
So you can't have both.
There's inconsistencies there.
But to say that it's aspiritual disease, what does it
mean to have spiritualliberation?
And there's a lot of differentideas about what true spiritual
liberation is.
And to the Christian, spiritualliberation is only through
(18:04):
Jesus Christ.
And so you know, these areactually some of the
conversations that we feelcalled to engage in with the
secular community.
We find that the secular worldis a mission field, even the
already recovered world.
There's a recovery communityout there that isn't necessarily
(18:26):
Christ-centered.
That's also a mission field toreach with the gospel Like you
don't.
It's not a higher power, youdon't have to just settle there.
You can actually know him.
You can know the living God,and it's such good news to know
him because he actually put onflesh and walk this earth.
He's not some carved out imagein your mind that agrees with
(18:48):
you all the time Like it'sbetter than that, and so I think
that that's part of our missionfield as well is to kind of
push back against some of thesemeta narratives that are just so
easily acceptable accepted,against some of these meta
narratives that are just soeasily acceptable.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Accepted, yeah, because I I mean the thing that
we hear a lot in just regularconversation is well, someone
just has a disease.
They're just an addict, they're.
They're just, they have thisdisease.
We don't know how to explain it, we don't know why they're,
they're just one of the unluckyones that has a disease.
Oh also, the grandma had it,the uncle had it.
(19:30):
Yeah, it's genetic, it's agenetic disease.
But what about the wholeperson's life, the whole story,
the grandma's life, the uncle'slife?
You know, there's so much moreto addiction than I feel that
(19:50):
mainstream makes it out to be.
Yeah, then the physical side,yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So there are like some physical realities that
could be interesting.
You know, like epigenetics ispretty interesting when you look
into it and um and andaddiction does affect the brain.
You can see it on a brain scan.
But that's still even.
But still, to interpretaddiction as just what you see
(20:19):
on a brain scan is still way too.
That's a philosophical statementto say it's not a scientific
one, it's a philosophical oneand it's reducing people down to
, it's too reductionistic,because there's so much.
There's an unseen realm,there's a physical body, there's
a mind, um, I mean, there are,there's so many moving parts to
(20:45):
addiction and we believe atRenew Clinic that addiction
foundationally is misguidedworship.
So when people are running to asubstance constantly, it's a
form of escapism which youpointed on, which you pointed to
(21:06):
earlier.
There's a lot of differentforms of escapism, but addiction
is running and attachingourselves to something, bonding
ourselves to something otherthan God, for comfort, for
pleasure, for satisfaction, andit's also psychologically an
avoidance disorder.
(21:26):
It's avoiding pain, it's abonding disorder and an
avoidance disorderpsychologically.
But spiritually it's misguidedworship and the way to spiritual
liberation is to point peopleto true worship of Christ and
obeying Him and living for him,and that's a very simple way to
(21:47):
put it.
There's a lot there to it.
There's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
It's an awesome way to put it.
I feel like you really said alot in a very condensed way.
That explains a lot of this.
I mean, especially what pops inmy mind was pornography
addiction, and it's an escape.
It's a way that people areescaping their reality or even
(22:12):
substance abuse like smokingmarijuana.
They're just escaping ratherthan facing emotion, talking
about what they're feeling,talking about, they just escape.
I mean, you could even putsmoking cigarettes in that
category, right, Because it's anaddictive substance.
That's just a couple minutes ofsomeone checking out and
(22:34):
escaping their life.
So that is a very it was agreat explanation.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Well, it could also point to like a longing, a
longing to connect, you know, alonging to feel okay in this
world, a longing to have some.
I mean, it can also point tosome longings that aren't
necessarily bad longings.
We're just going to the wrongthing to get it, you know and
(23:02):
you know.
And so, yeah, I just thinkaddiction is way more complex.
People are way more complex,because we're not just a high
form of animal, we're a low formof angel, and tell me more
about that.
Yeah, so Dr Cofield, he's aclinical psychologist.
(23:23):
He's been on our board for awhile, but he's also a pastor
Brilliant man, but he often usesthat term.
That a lot of times you knowthe secular world, the way you
view what it means to be human,is actually going to determine
treatment and how you value theperson sitting in front of you.
(23:46):
So a lot of times you know withfrom a darwinian worldview
which is what a lot of the youknow, the the more secular
industry derives from, um isthat we're just a high form of
animal that has evolved.
(24:06):
I mean, we've evolved from apes, you know, and but biblically
we're actually a low form ofangel, and so that's why the
Christian worldview gives somuch more dignity to what it
means to be human.
I mean we believe in the ImagoDei, that people are created in
(24:27):
the image of God you know, and,yeah, that also includes that we
have choices and we're moralagents and we sin, which is
something that a secularist oran atheist would say doesn't
(24:47):
matter or is not really at playhere and would get people off
the hook for being moral agents.
But the way that the secularworld values humans is far more
dehumanizing than how aChristian um, than than the
(25:10):
Christian value of the humanbeing um, which is we're
actually in the made in theimage of God.
So um, treatment looks verydifferent whenever you hold
people capable instead ofincapable.
You know, we we want to takepeople not just from dysfunction
(25:30):
to function, but fromfunctioning to flourishing,
which is that true spiritualliberation which is in Christ.
When we, when we receive theforgiveness of sin, which is
what everybody needs, we allhave a conscience, and I think a
lot of people use drugs toobecause of guilt.
Things they've done they wantto forget things that have been
(25:53):
done to them is so much moresatisfying and complete when it
comes to all of the needs of thehuman psyche and the soul.
The christian worldviewprovides those needs, whereas
the secular worldview does not.
(26:14):
So that's.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It's very interesting .
I've never heard thatcorrelation of humans being
lower than angels.
I did a little searching on theside here as you were chatting,
because I'm like where's thescripture on this?
And it does say in Psalm 8,what is man that you are mindful
(26:39):
of him and the son of man, thatyou visit him?
For you have made him a littlelower than the angels and you
have crowned him with glory andhonor.
And then this is repeated againin Hebrews two, seven, and
that's very.
I'm so blown away andfascinated by this now.
I'm going to have to look into awhole other podcast.
(27:00):
Yeah, a whole other podcast now,because I, you know, I've I've
heard a lot of people say, whensomeone dies, you know they're
like, oh, they're an angel now,and it's like this thing that
people say to make themselvesfeel better about whoever died,
and I'm like, well, actuallythey didn't become an angel.
Angels are different.
(27:22):
They're a different spiritualbeing, and the purpose of an
angel is they spend eternityworshiping God.
We're, we're created in hisimage, you know.
So it's.
That was such an interestingcorrelation for me, like you
know, to that we're lower angels, lower than angels.
So anyway, I'm just, I thinkit's cool, I'm nerding out about
(27:46):
something new, but I love yourmission and these values that
you guys are are really pointingto, and I'd love to hear a
little bit more about whataddictions are people struggling
with that they're coming torenew.
Yeah, I believe it's a programthat you're doing in person,
(28:11):
right?
They're coming a couple of daysa week and it's group sessions
where you guys are having theseconversations together, but then
there's also, are thereone-to-one kind of sessions?
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat part that part Sure.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So we also believe before I get to that we also
believe that treatment can betoo reductionistic.
Obviously in the clinical world, also in the faith world,
sometimes there is a stigmaagainst biblical counseling
because sometimes a biblicalcounselor can just give an
oversimplified Bible answer tovery complex trauma issue and
(28:58):
that can't be helpful.
But also on the clinical worldit can just be.
Humans can be reduced down tojust biological or
neurobiological.
Two ends of the spectrum here,yeah, and so Renew Clinic is
very much committed to, as yousaid before, treating the whole
person and which really I thinkis biblical.
(29:23):
I mean, that's the truebiblical way to do it.
If you're going to do, ifyou're doing really good
clinical work, you're doing itthe biblical way.
You know, yeah, and I don'tthink that you know, clinical
knowledge is just like extratruth out there outside of the
Bible, because all truth belongsto God and he has provided
insight.
Now the clinical world can takeinto some pretty wonky new age
(29:47):
places, but overall new ageplaces, but overall the medical
wisdom, the clinical wisdom thathas been given to help mankind,
all truth belongs to God, butthat can also get those sectors
can also get wonky.
So I say all that to say we are, we have we, our staff has a
(30:11):
biblical worldview.
So when I'm hiring people, whenwe're interviewing people, we
want to make sure that our staffhas a biblical worldview.
But we also have clinical staffwith a biblical worldview and
so we are biblicallyfoundational and clinically
informed because we're not goingto give oversimplified Bible
(30:35):
answers to very complex traumas.
We're also not going to excuseaway personal responsibility
because of trauma.
You know it's both.
It's both.
And for people to really reachfreedom they need both the
compassion of the sin that'sbeen committed against them and
(30:58):
to help them process the sinsthat have been committed against
them, but also how they'rethinking and reasoning and
rationing through the world,while also holding them
accountable for their ownactions and behavior and how
they're showing up in the world.
Both are needed and it reallytakes the guidance of the Holy
(31:18):
Spirit to know what's needed inthe moment.
You know, but I have a greatstaff and a great team.
But our treatment portion wemeet three days a week Monday,
wednesday and Friday from 5 to 8pm.
So it's nine hours of intensivegroup therapy for a minimum of
(31:40):
12 weeks, I would say.
And our participants also getan hour of one-on-one counseling
, marital counseling, familysupport we have a family support
director, jennifer Rokiski.
She works with the families,does an amazing job.
We also have a director ofbiblical counseling, jeff
Maitland.
I love Jeff.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I need to have Jeff on this podcast.
He and I have had some goodchats about spiritual warfare.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Oh, totally, he's great, he's a wealth of
knowledge, absolutely.
But some of the issues thatpeople have are theological
issues.
It's not just trauma, it's, youknow, it's the age old question
if God's good, why evil?
You know, and not everyclinical counselor can answer
that question.
(32:26):
You know, they're trained todeal with the mind and the
emotions.
So we also have the biblicalcounselor on staff to be able to
answer some of those questions,some of the apologetic,
theological questions.
So both are needed to work as ateam.
We don't think it's just theclinical personnel that's going
(32:47):
to help people or just thebiblical personnel that's going
to help people.
It's going to be both that areall filled with the Holy Spirit
to help our people.
So that's the more like IOPintensive, outpatient portion.
I would say that's the mainfunction of Renew is the
treatment.
But, like I said, I also thinkwe're called to speak to these
(33:09):
metanarratives through podcastsand conferences and things like
that, educational workshops, tomake a case for Christ in a
secular world and to reachpeople for Christ in the already
recovered community.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I love that.
That is amazing.
Now there are kind of threebuckets that I wanted to touch
on.
I'm going to leave it to you totell you know, to kind of make
the decision on which way to go.
First, because there are thosethat may be struggling with
addiction now.
They are trying to walk withChrist but they are struggling
(33:47):
with addiction or maybe theyrecently went through recovery.
That's kind of the second.
And then the third are thosethat are like me, that have
friends and family that aregoing through struggles right
now and don't know how to helpthose around us.
Yeah, you know, I'd love foryou to kind of share maybe a
(34:07):
little bit of advice or thoughtsor encouragement for those
groups and however order feelsright to you so let's start with
the families.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
The family members are often the forgotten piece of
the puzzle, and addiction isnot.
It never just affects oneperson, because we're not
created to be alone, we're notcreated to just be neutral
beings walking around.
Just you know addictions onlyhurting myself, like no one is
(34:42):
neutral.
You're either giving life ortaking life.
Help, you know living for thekingdom or living for the flesh,
or you know so.
There's no neutral ground.
So our actions affect people,our choices affect people and
families are affected.
(35:05):
It does not just stop with theaddicted loved one and
oftentimes the family membersdon't know how to help and it
feels like an insane viciouscycle that they don't know
what's helping, what's hurting.
Nothing makes sense to them.
(35:26):
They don't know how to makesense of addiction.
They don't know how to makesense of addiction.
They think a lot of times,especially from the Christian
community, because you knowwe're taught to have Christian
charity but that can also turninto like enabling.
So family members don't realizethat they're actually hurting
(35:53):
the situation by giving theirloved one money and continuing
to bail them out of jail andgiving them a place to sleep at
night when they're still usingand I understand, I cannot
imagine, especially for theparent who has a child, and
you're going against everynatural inclination that you
have to care for the needs ofyour child, who could be
addicted to drugs, and to tellthem, no, you can't come in the
house and it's cold outside.
Or to say, no, I'm not givingyou money, and the child's
(36:17):
saying I'm starving, I'm hungry,you know?
I mean, I can only imagine whatthat's like to have to draw
those types of lines andoftentimes, if and I'm just
using this as an example with aparent-child relationship
oftentimes if a parent has achild who is very deep into
(36:40):
their addiction and they'vegiven them money, they've bailed
them out, it is not helping,it's continuing a vicious cycle.
They have to get to a pointwhere they refuse to give them
money, they refuse to help themin any way.
I'm not saying refuse love orencouragement or presence, I'm
(37:01):
just saying refusing to helpthem feel comfortable in their
addiction anymore for not onemore second.
That is a very difficult thingfor families to have to walk
through and it's something that,unless you've had to do it,
unless you've had to walkthrough that, it's really hard
(37:21):
to understand.
But that is not the naturalresponse for people and so I
think it's paramount that if afamily has a family member, has
a loved one who is strugglingwith addiction, to find a
support system to find peoplewho are walking through it and
(37:46):
to find wisdom from people whohave walked through it and have
some wisdom and can help them,and to trust the wisdom of
others, you know.
But it makes the whole familysick and so you know there's
also work that the family willlikely have to do their own
internal work to be healthy andto know how to love their
(38:12):
addicted loved one in a healthyway and to be ready right for
that hope, that recovery thatyou know, that we're hoping for.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
But that's great advice.
That really is great advice,because it's like if you're
trying to do anything in life,you're going to research and
you're going to try to meetlike-minded people that are
working towards that cause.
I hate to always use birth foreverything, but I'm gonna if
you're going to have a homebirth.
You're going to join home birthcommunities to learn from other
home birthers on how to do itRight.
(38:49):
Right, if you are experiencinga loved one that's going through
addiction, finds community withothers that have walked that
path before that, can you know,help, help, guide you through
that?
That's great advice.
Yeah, cause I think so many ofus feel like we're just walking
along in isolation, mm-hmm.
(39:11):
You know, and I know that AAhas a thing you know right.
They have like a thing for thefamilies or whatever.
Al-anon.
Yeah, so I can guarantee thereare Christian communities of
people that are doing similarthings.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah, Right, and we are at Renew, I mean we.
So we, we welcome familymembers, even if their loved one
is not going through treatment,I mean, and it's a free service
, it's just a community thatthat I would say that we're
building as well, of familymembers, that you know, they're
(39:49):
just man and it's helpful justto hear and be in life with
other people who are goingthrough it with you too, you
know, because, like you said, itcan feel so isolating.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Absolutely.
I know my sister is not heretoday she is my co-host and is
here a lot of the times but sheactually has shared on the show
before and this is something shewould be comfortable sharing if
she was here.
She experienced eatingdisorders.
She struggled with bulimia andanorexia for many years and she
(40:22):
feels in many ways that it's aform of addiction in its own way
, because she became addicted toher response to stress and
whatever the case might be washer eating disorder and she
actually had changed her majorbecause she wanted to go down
the path of becoming a mentalhealth therapist at some point,
(40:48):
specifically for the families.
Yeah, because of how hard it wasfor her to go through and none
of us know what to do.
You know she's going through itand we're like what, what do we
do to help you?
Right, and all of us weresaying these things.
You know we wanted to help butwe couldn't.
We didn't have any tools to beequipped with that.
(41:10):
Now, she didn't end up goingdown that path of pursuing that
degree, but now she gets to talkabout it on the podcast and
share with others, which is good, it's a positive thing.
But it's just an example ofanother area where families need
support, too.
It's the person is goingthrough it, but it's not an
example of another area wherefamilies need support, too.
(41:30):
It's the person.
The person is going through it,but it's not an isolation.
There are others that areimpacted by what is going on
with that person and for me,being so, she and I are very
close and being so close andwatching her, I thought she was
going to die, like I.
I literally was watching herkill herself, and that actually
is what it came down to was Ididn't know what to do.
(41:52):
I was at my wits end.
She was in college at the timewhen I finally said I can't, I
can't talk to you anymore.
Like we we talked every day,you know, texted all day.
I said I can until you get help.
Like I can't watch you die.
Right, and that was the thing.
She was, like I'm not going tolose my sister and not talk to
(42:16):
her.
And she finally started goingto a program for her eating
disorder and that was, you know,a time where we were able to
move through that together, butI didn't have the tools to help
her.
I just knew that she neededhelp, and it would have been
really cool if I had supportback then too, you know yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
We're talking 20 years ago.
So yeah Again, probably didn'thave the internet barely.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I know, I mean, if you think about it like our, our
smartphones, I mean, I mean, ifyou think about it like our,
our smartphones, I mean I hadthe, I had the Nokia, that you
could change the, the, theplates out like the face plates
out.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
You, know the little Nokia phone.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, Mine was blue Baby blue, yeah, all kinds of
different face plates for thatthing, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Absolutely, absolutely, but it's, you know
now it's for.
A lot of people can find thesetypes of communities on Facebook
, facebook groups.
Facebook is funny, it's likethe new forums.
You remember forums back in theday.
I find that with Facebook a lot, that there are mom groups,
there's homeschool mom groups,there's women that are
(43:32):
recovering from the copper IUDgroup I'm in that one.
Oh yeah, copper toxicity is areal thing and it can make give,
it can literally give womenanxiety, and then women go to
the doctor and they prescribethem drugs for anxiety and
(43:52):
really it's the copper that'sleaching out into their bodies.
There's also support groups forthe plastic one, mirena,
because that one can causesuicidal ideation.
There's all kinds of supportgroups out there.
So all these things are justhappening to our human bodies as
we're being, you know, told.
(44:14):
These things that are distortionand it's kind of a common
thread that we've talked abouton this podcast is God's design
for our bodies and our health,to look at the body holistically
(44:36):
and what each organ does towork together to give us life
and health.
And of course it's notsomething that we're promised.
But we don't help ourselveswhen we get involved in
pharmaceuticals that impact ourliver, impact our thyroid, that
impact our liver, impact ourthyroid, impact our hormones or
our endocrine system.
We end up creating problemsthrough that, that it takes
(45:06):
sometimes a veil being droppedto even see it, cause I didn't
for a long time.
I mean, I took every birthcontrol that existed as a
believer, didn't think thatthere was anything wrong with it
until I paid for it physicallyand mentally, and started to see
that it was just a trick.
You know it's just this lie thatI'm sold, and guess what?
(45:26):
Learning about our fertility isactually a lot easier.
I mean, I was 30, whateveryears old when I first got the
book Taking Charge of yourFertility.
I was like, wow, god is verysmart.
He designed our bodiesextremely well.
We are on a cycle that ispredictable.
All we have to do is payattention.
But I digress.
(45:50):
Okay, so family's advice is geta support system.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Get a support system and don'thide.
You know what's going on inyour, in your home.
Reach out to a trusted friend,and sometimes that's just the
first step for somebody.
Is you know, the first step forthe addict is to confess right,
(46:17):
to admit that I'm powerlessover my addiction.
My life's become unmanageable.
Only a power greater thanmyself can restore me to sanity.
Is, you know, part of the 12steps.
Obviously that's Christ, but thefamily member has to do that
too.
You know, our lives have becomeunmanageable.
This isn't working.
This is an addiction, you know,and sometimes that's hard for
(46:39):
the family member to actuallyconfess as well.
I think everybody has to get tothat point and for some it's
harder than others.
But to, yeah, find that trustedperson, talk to them, get a
support system, get a supportgroup, um of of people who are
going through it, people thathave gone through it, where they
have that wisdom.
(46:59):
Pray, pray, pray, pray.
My mom prayed for me and um,and I believe God heard her
prayers.
So you know it is ultimatelythe Lord that will.
It takes a divine interventionfor anybody to take their hands
(47:20):
off of that drug and to wantsomething better, to want
something new.
So just pray, pray, pray.
So that would be my advice,okay.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Okay, pray, pray, so that that would be my advice.
Okay, Okay, and now?
What about those that maybe aregoing through a struggle with
addiction now haven't fullyrecognized it, or those who are
kind of in the recovery process?
Advice thoughts.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, so I mean so many different people are in
different places.
You know, you talk about, likethe stages of change.
Some people are incontemplation mode, some are in
pre-contemplation, some are inaction phase.
So people are going to be indifferent stages of like their
readiness to change um there's,there's.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Is there three stages ?
How many stages are there?
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Oh no, I think there's like four.
Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm blanking.
Hold on.
There's pre-contemplationcontemplation action.
I think there's four or five.
Hang on, let me pull this up.
But regardless, a lot of peoplestay in the pre-contemplation
phase for a long time, whichbasically hold on.
(48:39):
Let me pull up stages of change.
So there is here it ispre-contemplation contemplation,
preparation, maintenance andaction.
So a lot of people hang out inthe pre-contemplation stage for
a while and it says theindividual is not yet aware or
(49:03):
does not acknowledge the needfor change.
So if somebody is there, Iwould say my advice to that
person is if you have more thanone person in your life telling
you, hey, I think there's aproblem, or if you cannot enjoy
life or enjoy anything without asubstance, or if your life is
(49:32):
centered around how you're goingto get that substance, when
you're going to use thatsubstance, if that is the main
thing that you think about mostof the time, be willing to
consider that there is a problemand whether or not we
acknowledge it or not, that isnot what determines if there's a
(49:55):
problem or not, because a lotof times it's just our own
denial or personal resistance toactually seeing the truth.
But there's a lot of red flagsthat even a person in the
pre-contemplation stage canrecognize to be able to say,
okay, maybe there is a problemhere.
(50:17):
So the contemplation stage Iwould say most of the people
coming through our doors aregoing to be in contemplation or
preparation.
So they're aware.
So in contemplation, they'reaware of the need to change.
They're uncertain or undecidedabout taking action.
(50:38):
A lot of times people comethrough and they start treatment
because their probation officeris making them, or their job is
making them, or their wife'sabout to leave them, and they
become convinced as they are intreatment.
Oh wow, this really is aproblem.
And then some people come andthey are ready to change.
(51:01):
Even they're walking throughthe doors ready to change.
We just had a girl this week,her intake.
I mean, she's just so sick ofher choices, she's so sick of
doing the same old thing andthat's such a beautiful place to
be.
She's so broken.
She feels like you know, justso low in life right now.
But what a beautiful place tobe too.
(51:23):
I want to encourage thosepeople who are just like I'm
sick of my sin.
You know why do I keep doingthis?
Yeah, but what a beautiful andthat can also be a terrifying
place to be because yourecognize your inability to
change yourself.
But it can also be such abeautiful place because that's
(51:44):
often the place of surrender,and I want to encourage those
people.
Yeah, so there are five stagesof change.
Thank you, that's helpful.
Yeah, so there are five stagesof change.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Thank you, that's helpful.
I think that that's reallyhelpful to to just there's going
to be different places wherepeople are, and I think it's
important for all of us torecognize which which, whatever
side that is.
But you know, if this message isspeaking to someone listening
and perhaps you're strugglingwith something, reach out to
(52:16):
Renu, reach out to Sarah and I'msure if you're not in the
Knoxville area she can help youfind somebody in your area that
can help you through thesethings.
And you also have a podcast nowwe mentioned it last time
called the Waging War Podcast,and I'll link it in the show
notes.
But you guys have some greattopics on there.
(52:36):
I was listening to them earliertoday.
A couple of episodes Awesome,yeah, they are, but it's cool
because it's kind of a littlebit of everything.
But that's a great place forsomeone to get some biblical
perspective on.
You know what they're goingthrough.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
I mean it ranges from how do I forgive to, and you
know, struggling with sin andcan I lose my salvation to is
the Bible reliable?
Because these are allconversations that people are
having, coming through our doorsand are also having in the
recovery community.
I just had a conversation theother day with a couple of
people who work in the industry,asking about the reliability of
the Bible and I'm telling you,you know, I do believe that
(53:36):
we're missionaries called andthat's our mission field is to
this industry.
Because you know, you wouldn'tnormally piece put together like
this apologetic conversation ofthe historical reliability of
the Bible to addiction recovery.
But actually it's very muchentrenched because these
conversations are circulatingand the recovery community is
actually very infatuated withGnosticism and you know these,
(54:01):
the lost gospels, like thegospel of Thomas and the gospel
of Barnabas and Peter, and whichwere much later than the
gospels, and their hereticaltexts, and they were never
considered scripture.
But the addiction recoverycommunity is very much
infatuated with things like thisand we I happen to just have
(54:25):
inside knowledge of that, youknow, but on the outside people
wouldn't typically piece thosetwo together.
So on the podcast we addressthat.
You know, we address some ofthese conversations.
So that's great.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
It seems random, but it's not well, it's, it's all
stuff that's coming up which isimportant and you know,
obviously I'm not always thebiggest fan of statistics
because I know how skewed theyare.
Like, I love when I hearstatistics about home birth and
I'm like where was I in thisstudy?
Because I wasn't.
I didn't answer any survey, soyou, you know they're all skewed
(54:58):
.
But according to Americanaddiction centers, 48.5
Americans 48 million Americansage 12 and older battled a
substance use disorder in thepast year.
That's a lot of people.
That's a lot of people.
(55:19):
That is a lot.
That's only the people thatreported to this study right so
what is the actual number,because you know that takes
someone reporting this right.
That is a lot and that's 12 andolder 12 and older, 12 and
(55:39):
older.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
Almost 20 of americans, it says yeah, yeah,
so everybody knows somebodyright, yep I mean that's what
that number tells me.
That's why the family supportpiece is so important, because
everybody knows somebody withthat kind of statistic, with
that kind of, with that kind ofnumber of people are actually
using and have it and have it.
(56:00):
Those are people who are in thepreparation or contemplation
stage.
That doesn't even include thepre-contemplation people.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
No, no, cause they're not even ready to admit it,
they're not even there yet.
Yeah, it's probably 50% ofAmericans, yeah, yeah, so it's a
huge thing.
And I know last time we talkeda lot about the spiritual side
of things and this you know thatwe talked about it this time
too, because there's a lot ofthere's more factors to
(56:31):
addiction than just genetics,let's say right, it's true,
there's the spiritual side, thechildhood trauma side, there's
all of these facets and I lovethat you guys are addressing all
of it.
You know that Renew is lookingat the holistic person to get
through these things.
So you're a testament to whatrecovery looks like on the other
(56:54):
side, right?
So what is it like on the otherside?
Speaker 2 (56:58):
better, I would say well, yeah there's purpose,
there's freedom, there's joy,forgiveness meaning like dignity
, you know I I mean that's oneof our values is restoring
dignity.
You know.
That's why we want renew clintto be so nice.
Renew clint's a very nicebuilding.
It's feels really good, it'snicely decorated.
(57:18):
You Renew Clink to be so nice.
Renew Clink's a very nicebuilding, it feels really good,
it's nicely decorated.
We want people to feel likewe're honoring them.
You're walking through thesedoors and we want them to feel
honored and valued.
But going back to the spiritualwarfare piece, you know how many
people use drugs just tosilence the noise, use drugs
(57:40):
just to silence the noise, youknow, just to silence the
harassment.
Often I'm thinking of onesituation in particular.
This was not recent, but awhile ago.
I mean just haunted by thethings they've done, haunted and
(58:04):
I think, harassed, right,spiritually harassed by the
things that they've done andusing to silence that.
So is it really a brain disease?
I mean, whenever I give youthat situation, I mean does that
sound like a brain disease toyou?
No, that's not a brain disease.
That is somebody who ismedicating a spiritual
harassment.
(58:24):
They need the forgiveness ofChrist, they need to realize the
forgiveness in Christ so thatthat harassment can't harass
them anymore.
You know, beating them over thehead of the things that they've
done, that condemnation.
They're using drugs to silencethe condemnation, and that's why
Christ will satisfy that,because he will forgive them
(58:48):
freely.
And so that's why gosh themetanarratives in the secular
world.
I mean, I have a lot ofbrilliance there, there's a lot
of knowledge and wisdom, but itjust falls short of truly
satisfying the needs of thehuman soul and psyche.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Absolutely Well.
This has been awesome.
Are there any final thoughtsthat you wanted to share before
we close today, or tonight ortomorrow?
We just keep talking a littlelonger.
Speaker 2 (59:22):
I know right, I'm going to just fall asleep
talking.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Talk to us in your sleep.
I bet you can do it.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
You'll hear the secrets that I keep when I'm
talking in my sleep.
So I always want to encouragethe struggling Christian.
I always want to encourage thestruggling Christian, because
that was me for so long and Istill struggle.
I mean, I still do, but notlike I did, in the same way.
I'm not saying I never willagain either.
(59:53):
I'm not, I don't want to saythat, but I just want to.
I just want to encourage theone who is.
I don't want to say that, but Ijust want to.
I just want to encourage theone who is, who just feels as if
man, I just I keep doing thesame things.
I keep struggling with sin, I'mstruggling with addiction.
I you know, I don't know that Icould ever be saved, and I just
want to tell that person youcannot save yourself.
It is not the absence of sinthat gets you into heaven, it is
(01:00:20):
the blood of Christ.
And so the only thing you cando whenever you're at the end of
yourself and you cannot changeyourself, you can't fix yourself
, you can't make your thoughtsbetter, you can't stop, throw
yourself on Christ, and he isthe faithful one.
He's the faithful one and heknows.
It says what's impossible forman is possible with God.
(01:00:42):
It's impossible for you.
Truly, you recognize that.
That's why you're discouraged,because you recognize you
struggling Christian or personwho is not yet a Christian or is
struggling in their sin.
You are just simply recognizingthe reality.
You can't, you can't, butChrist can Throw yourself on him
(01:01:06):
.
When I say throw yourself onhim, I just mean trust in him,
like you would a parachute andyou're jumping out of a plane,
free fall and trust him to getyou to the ground safely.
His blood was spilled for you.
He is risen from the grave.
(01:01:26):
He's alive right now tointercede for you, to reveal
himself to you to comfort you.
Call on his name and I justwant to encourage the struggling
Christian or the strugglingperson that thinks that they're
just too far gone, and I'd saythat's my final word.
Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Amen, sister, I love it.
Amazing.
Sarah, thank you for joining mefor all of these hours that you
have spent with me.
I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
It's been fun.
Thank you, I really enjoyed it.
I really have.
Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Thank you Absolutely, and you can find Sarah at
RenewKnoxvillecom if you'relooking for Renew or again the
Waging War podcast or RenewClinic on YouTube and I'll link
everything in the show notes.
So please go to those notes andyou can click through.
It'll be easy.
But thank you all for tuning inand being on the journey with
us.
If you'd like to follow alongoutside the podcast, you can
(01:02:17):
join the mission on Instagram,facebook and YouTube at the
radiant mission.
And today we are going to closewith Romans, 12, verses nine
through 21.
It's a little longer one but Ilove it because Sarah shared it
with me and I think it'll be agood encouragement to those
listening today.
(01:02:38):
Love must be sincere.
Hate what is evil, cling towhat is good.
Be devoted to one another inlove.
Honor one another aboveyourselves.
Never be lacking in zeal butkeep your spiritual fervor
serving the Lord.
Be joyful in hope, patient inaffliction, faithful in prayer.
Share with the Lord's peoplewho are in need.
(01:02:59):
Practice hospitality.
Bless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse.
Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Mourn with those who mourn.
Live in harmony with oneanother.
Do not be proud but be willingto associate with people of low
position.
Do not be conceited.
Do not repay anyone evil forevil.
(01:03:21):
Be careful to do what is rightin the eyes of everyone, if it
is possible.
As far as it depends on you,live at peace with everyone.
Do not take revenge, my dearfriends, but leave room for
God's wrath, for it is writtenit is mine to avenge.
I will repay, says the Lord.
On the contrary, we are wishingyou a radiant week and we'll
(01:04:01):
see you next time.
Bye, everyone.
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