April 1, 2025 • 47 mins
What if everything you thought you knew about childbirth was shaped by a system designed to doubt women's bodies rather than trust them? In this eye-opening conversation with Dr. Stu, a community birth physician supporting home births, we dive deep into how modern birthing practices often undermine what our bodies naturally know how to do.
The statistics alone should give us pause. Since 1970, C-section rates have skyrocketed from 5% to 32% in the United States—a staggering 500% increase—without corresponding improvements in maternal or infant outcomes. The World Health Organization suggests rates should be 10-15%, meaning hundreds of thousands of unnecessary surgical births happen annually. Yet remarkably, no physician admits to performing these unnecessary procedures. This cognitive dissonance permeates our entire approach to childbirth.
Dr. Stu beautifully contrasts the midwifery model, which "trusts birth and accepts uncertainty," with the medical model, which "fears birth and tries to control everything." This difference manifests in everything from the length and quality of prenatal visits to postpartum care. While hospital protocols typically schedule a single six-week postpartum check, midwives visit multiple times in the first week alone, providing crucial support during the most vulnerable period for mother and baby.
For expectant parents navigating this complex landscape, Dr. Stu offers practical wisdom: pay attention to how you feel after prenatal appointments. Do you leave feeling more confident and empowered, or more anxious and diminished? This emotional barometer can guide you toward providers who genuinely support your innate capacity to birth. Consider incorporating midwifery care into your pregnancy journey regardless of where you plan to deliver, as midwives are the true experts in normal physiological birth.
Whether you're planning your first birth, processing a previous birth experience, or supporting someone on their journey, this conversation will transform how you view the miraculous process of bringing new life into the world. Trust your body—it knows what to do.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission Podcast.
My name is Rebecca Toomey and Iam here with my amazing co-host
and sister, rachel Smith.
We are on a mission toencourage and inspire others as
they navigate through this lifeand with their relationship with
Christ.
Now we have a very specialguest with us today.
(00:46):
Today's episode is acontinuation of last week with
part one on understanding birthwith Dr Stu.
He is a community birthphysician and if you tuned in
last week, I'm sure you learneda lot.
I know I did, and we had greatfeedback from you guys.
I actually had quite a fewfolks say this was my favorite
(01:10):
episode ever.
So I'm really looking forwardto part two going live and I you
know I'm not going to keep youwaiting.
Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Your body is designed to that to deliver a baby, baby
to grow a baby and deliver ababy, and most of the time it
works.
And in the midwifery model,even though, again, they
cherry-pick their clients, youknow they have a c-section rates
from between two and sevenpercent.
Yeah, in 1970, united states,the c-section rate was 5%.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
And now it's 31% 32% in the United States.
In countries like Brazil andSouth Africa it's over 70% in
private hospitals.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
It's crazy.
Yeah, In Miami it's 50%.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, what are we doing to this?
But again, there's no thoughtgiven as to what we're doing to
our species and the futuregenerations.
Every time you mess with Mothernature, there's a ripple effect
.
You may not see it initially,but it's happening and over time
everything that you do.
If you give penicillin, great,you can save somebody.
But then you createmethicillin-resistant staph
(02:16):
aureus and then you have to keepchasing your tail.
It's like with viruses you givea vaccine, the virus mutates.
Nature always figures a way.
Your tail, it's like.
It's like with viruses, you geta vaccine, the virus mutates
nature.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, it's a cascading effect because, like
just thinking of my ownexperience with two c-sections,
I had a terrible timebreastfeeding like I could, my
supply, the quality of my milk,my babies were failure to thrive
, like it was just a cascadethrough their life that then
tied them to a system that wethen were giving formula and and
(02:52):
I don't, I never labored, Iwent through this medical model,
so it's, you know, for aC-section rate of 50% and how
many women are then affectedthat way, and then that affects
that child for life and how theydevelop.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, the medical model doesn't necessarily want
you to get well.
The individual doctors andnurses probably do.
Yeah, but the medical model, youknow, and the pharmaceutical
companies don't really want youto get well.
And the thing about thebreastfeeding thing afterwards
is again the medical model.
Generally you deliver your baby, whether it's by C-section or
(03:32):
vaginal delivery.
You may see a lactationconsultant once or twice while
you're in the hospital.
Then you go home and the doctorsays I'll see you in six weeks.
That's classically theobstetrical model.
That is ridiculous.
I thought it was normal until Istarted work with midwives and I
learned that no, we'll comeback on day one, we'll come back
on day five, we'll come back onday seven.
We'll have a lactationconsultant come on day three and
(03:54):
if you're having any problemswe'll come over and we go to
their houses.
And England has a system that'sbetter than ours because they
have the National Health Servicewhere they have midwives that
can follow you prenatally inlabor or if you transfer to the
hospital, they can still comewith you and then they make home
visits afterwards.
The medical model doesn't?
It doesn't, uh, accommodatethat?
(04:18):
Yeah, probably partly becauseinsurance doesn't pay for it,
sure, yeah, doctors do, did you?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
oh go ahead did you have a heart attack the first
time you saw someone eat aplacenta?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
No, I didn't have a heart attack.
But again, yeah, I think it waswoo.
Yeah, I don't think it was outthere.
I'm sure that A lot of thethings you know the people that
want to burn the cord.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And you don't even get started on lotus births or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I mean, yeah, how do you feel about all that?
You know what?
It doesn't really.
It doesn't affect me at allanymore, because it's a
reasonable, it's a choice thatthey're making.
I don't know of any downside todoing it yeah it doesn't take
any extra time on our part, okay, because if we're going to be
there for three, four hoursafter the birth anyway, so to
take some placenta and put it ina smoothie is not a big deal.
(05:10):
I've never seen someone take apiece of placenta and eat it.
You haven't.
No, I'm sure that they do.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I have actually heard that it's a natural way to
prevent hemorrhage, that if youhave heavy bleeding and you take
a little piece of the placentaand you put it in your cheek, it
will prevent hemorrhaging.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I've heard of that, but that's not the same as
eating it.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
No, no, I mean, some people will eat it, but I guess
you have to eat it right away,huh.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
There's so many natural ways to deal with things
that we in the medicalprofession don't know, and when
I go to a birth, I always gowith a midwife and and the
midwives know things that Idon't and I know things that
they don't and it makes a greatcollaborative.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, that must be awesome.
I'm sure you had a lot of funthe first time you learned about
like shepherd's purse andAngelica and all the herbs.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Even something as simple as Arnica.
I'd never heard of Arnicabefore.
Yeah Well, pulsatilla.
Uh-huh, some crazy roots.
There's all kinds of roots, Idon't know Some barbacoa roots.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
The Pulsatilla, isn't that one used to help flip a
breech baby oh you're asking me.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
He doesn't use the herbs to flip the babies, he
just delivers them.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Okay.
No, there's antimonium which Ithink you give to a baby who's
got like wet lungs when they'reborn.
It's a little early, a little.
That's homeopathy.
You put it under their tongue.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Well, the baby, you can't put it under their tongue.
You just hope you put it intheir mouth and hope it works.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I have some pulsatilla, Rachel.
If you want to try it, let meknow.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
It might be something else.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I mean it's you know, I think I have it for mucus.
I don't think your listenersshould pay attention to this
segment because none of us knowwhat we're talking about.
We are not providing medicaladvice right now.
We are just.
We're not homeopathy experts,we're just chit-chatting.
Well, you know, one of thequestions that someone had asked
(07:10):
and it, honestly, is the wayyou would answer it, I think is
probably the same way that youwould answer the question about
what happens in an emergency isthat a lot of women.
They're like, okay, I'm sold onthis, I want to do a home birth
, but then their husband's likeI'm sold on this, I want to do a
homework, but then theirhusband's like I don't, I don't
(07:31):
like this, you know, I'm scared.
Or maybe it's another familymember or a bunch of family
members.
Do you run into that at all?
Or your midwives?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Sure, it's not.
It's not my job to twist armsor get into family dynamics, but
I'm always available for if aclient wants me to like.
There's a great testimonial onmy website from a couple that
were breached.
They came for a consult andthey got really, really happy
about it.
But they're both their parents.
The two pretend, you know.
(07:58):
The four potential grandparentswere all skeptical about her
having a home breach birth.
So I offered to come and do aSkype in those days, to do a
Skype meeting with them, and Ispent an hour and 20 minutes on
the phone I mean on the Skypedown at their house in their
living room talking to theirfamily members back east, and
after the time it made it verysmooth.
(08:19):
But see, my model allows for meto have the time to do that
Because I can charge what I wantto charge.
I have no master, I'm notemployed and I'm not taking
insurance, so I can charge whatI want.
And again, I understand that alot of people can't have access
to that because, but I can onlydo so many.
I could.
(08:40):
You know, I can only do so manybirths a month.
I'm just one person.
I could only do so many birthsa month.
I'm just one person, but whenI'm in the office and the
husband or the partner, usuallyit's a male partner.
Sometimes it could be a femalepartner, but usually it's the
male partner, because maledynamic is such that we as men
are supposed to be concernedabout safety and cost.
(09:01):
That's sort of in, you know, ina traditional male role.
We can say, well, that's notgood anymore, and we got to get
rid of that masculinity, it'stoxic and blah, blah, blah.
But I'm not going to comment.
That's traditionally what mentend to want to do.
So they have concerns aboutcost and about safety.
(09:21):
So we have these conversationsand we talk about safety and we
talk about safety.
And we talk about safety fromthe aspect of you know well,
what's the default safety?
And they'll say, well, isn'tthe hospital safer?
And then we'll go through andwe'll talk about the numbers and
we'll talk about you know whathappens to you when you go to
the hospital and for certainthings it is safer, but your
chance of having a successfulbirth that your partner feels
(09:47):
really satisfied with is so muchgreater at home than in the
hospital, and that's part ofbeing safe too and part of being
successful Not just the baby inthe bassinet, but how it got
into the bassinet and that'swhat matters.
And you know I, because I'm amale, I have a very, pretty easy
way of talking to other men inthe room.
They sort of will pay attentionwhen I talk.
(10:09):
So I have that advantage.
It's about the only advantage Ihave in my profession, because
everything else isfemale-dominated.
But yeah, and you're not goingto convince everybody and I will
tell a lot of clients thatlisten.
First of all, when you find outyou're pregnant, don't tell
(10:29):
anybody your due date.
All right, you can tell them ifyou're due on September 4th.
Just tell them you're due theend of September so that they
don't have a date to write downand start bugging you and
telling you what their doctorwould do because you've gone a
day overdue and blah, blah, blah, yeah, telling you what their
doctor would do because you'vegone a day overdue and blah,
blah, blah, yeah, yeah.
Secondly, if you, if your birthplan is your birth plan, it's
your private birth plan, Allright.
(10:52):
If you have girlfriends thatyou talk about your menstrual
periods with, that's fine.
But most people aren't going to.
That's not going to be aconversation You're going to
come up with your parents, sodon't necessarily have to tell
everybody everything.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
It can really disturb your peace.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
It's your own and that's why you should never get
in the middle of that as apractitioner, because every
family has a different dynamic.
Yeah, and every family has adifferent history, and to try to
put to use an algorithm likethe medical model would do the
one size fits all.
You have to sign this consentform, you have to do this, you
have to do that.
It just doesn't work.
Some people have.
(11:26):
You know a lot of women havetrauma.
You know a lot of women havebeen assaulted, a lot of women
have been abused.
So you know, a lot of timesbullying a woman in labor is
just a flashback to that abuse,absolutely.
And then you're taking thatmammal and you're having them
secrete all the wrong hormonesat a time when they're supposed
(11:46):
to be trying to go into labor.
And then the labor gets screwedup because you haven't honored
their history.
And how can you expect a doctorwho's never met you before,
who's working a shift, to honoryour history?
He doesn't have time for that.
He's got 16 other people on theward in labor.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
The system is completely busted.
If people can find a midwife,that's where they should start.
And even if you have apregnancy that would be
considered higher risk, liketype one diabetes or twins from
the very beginning, get prenatalcare with a midwife, even if
you have to go with an OB aswell, because you're far more
likely to have better nutritionand better stress reduction and
(12:29):
better sleep and all that stuff,because a midwife will take an
hour every time talking with you, whereas your OB, who might
love to take an hour of talkingwith you, doesn't have that kind
of time Because an OB has anoverhead that's extremely high
and they have to do volume andin order to make their overhead
they have to do volume.
Or if they work for somethinglike Kaiser, they're told that
(12:50):
they have 12 minutes for thisvisit or eight minutes for this
visit and they don't even haveany control over their own
schedule.
I feel for these people.
They didn't go to medicalschool to sign up for that, but
then that's partly their ownfault because they're allowing
it to be done to them.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Because they've gotten themselves in a hamster
wheel of you know, I've got amortgage payment and I've got
three kids going to college andblah, blah, blah and I, I can't,
I can't quit, and if I speak upI'll get fired or I'll lose my
Christmas bonus.
So I I'm just going to keep myhead down, I'm just going to
keep doing the same thing thateverybody's doing, even when I
know it's wrong.
Yeah, and again we get back tothat thing of of I mean, how do
(13:32):
you deal with that?
Every day, there's, it's, it'sclassic cognitive dissonance.
Sure, you know I have a greatcognitive dissonance example
which I love to use if you wantme to do it.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Okay.
So we talked about theC-section rate in the United
States being 5% in 1970.
And now it's like 32%.
So that's about a 500% increasein the C-section rate.
The rate of cerebral palsyhasn't changed.
The rate of hypoxic ischemicencephalopathy hasn't changed.
Neonatal morbidity andmortality probably about the
same.
(14:05):
Maternal mortality might beeven a little worse now because
of all the C-sections.
So we haven't done anything,but we've increased the
C-section rate 500%.
The main reason, of course, isagain, this is not part of the
example is the Friedman Curve ofLabor and Continuous Fetal
Monitoring.
Another podcast, another time.
The World Health Organization,which is not an organization
(14:26):
that I'm very fond of.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Same.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
But they think the C-section rate in Western
countries should be around 10 to15%.
Now we probably know it shouldbe lower than that, but let's
take them at their word andlet's just say it should be 15%.
So let's say that it's 30% inthe United States, but the World
Health Organization says itshould be 15%.
So there's about 4 millionbabies born in the United States
(14:51):
every year.
30% of that is about 1.2, 1.3million cesarean sections done
in the United States every year.
It's by far the most commonoperation performed in the
United States.
Nothing else is even close.
But if you take the WorldHealth Organization's thing that
half of those are unnecessary,that means there's a 600,000 to
700,000 unnecessary cesareansections being done every year.
(15:15):
If there were 600,000unnecessary mastectomies or knee
surgeries or gallbladders beingdone every year, not only would
people be outraged by that andeven the oblivious mainstream
media would be covering it, butinsurance companies would be
outraged because they're payingfor unnecessary surgeries.
They don't want to do that.
But not a peep about 700,000unnecessary cesarean sections.
(15:37):
But here's the real questionwho's doing the unnecessary
cesarean sections?
Because no doctor goes home atnight and says to their spouse
hey, honey, guess what?
I did?
Two unnecessary C-sections.
Today, every C-section a doctordoes they believe is necessary,
yet half are unnecessary.
So how does a doctor?
(16:00):
Well, first of all, they ignorethat data, which is one of the
coping mechanisms for cognitivedissonance, is.
They won't believe that that15% is right.
But also then they'll also saythings like well, it's not me
that's doing the unnecessaryones, it's the other guy.
But what's the other guy saying?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
He's saying it's.
It's not me, it's that guy andthat's.
This is a classic example.
Half of all the C-sectionsbeing done are unnecessary, yet
no one's doing them.
Okay, that's you guys youshould see that people listening
at home.
You should see the look ontheir faces.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
We're both like this is just wild.
You know it's like.
It's like you're talking to thetwo perfect people for this who
had unnecessary c-sections.
I mean, yeah, I had breachedbabies but there it was an
unnecessary C-section that I hadthose but I never.
And it's also it's funnybecause Rebecca and I have on
our list of questions for youwhich, after everything we've
(16:59):
talked about now for all thistime, is kind of funny.
Do you feel birthing at home isa better choice?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I mean from where I stand right now.
I would say for most women theanswer is yes, but ultimately
that choice has to belong tothem.
They have to look at their ownfamily history, their own life
history.
They have to look at what theyvalue, what's important to them.
For some women, having ahospital birth, even having a
scheduled elective C-section, isa godsend because labor is a
(17:31):
bridge they don't want to crossand that's fine, as long as
they've been given informedconsent and they're told the
risks of the cesarean.
And they're told that, by theway, they asked the question
that's never asked of a primatewho's breech, the question that
they never ask you and I wouldbe shocked if they asked you
this.
When they're telling you youneed a C-section, did anyone ask
(17:52):
you if you wanted more children?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
No, no, no, definitely not.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Right.
So all they've done by doing aC-section for your breach is
they've taken the risk theymight've saved on that breach
and now pushed it on all yourfuture children.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
But they don't say that I definitely had a 100%
unnecessary C-section, dr Stu,in that my daughter was in my
pelvis you could see her head.
They knew that she was sunnyside up and this doctor
literally just was tired of howlong it was taking and said well
, you should push it for fourhours that you couldn't get an
(18:29):
infection so you need to move toa C-section.
And I said I don't want to.
And she said well, you have to.
And she had cleared the room ofall the.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
That were in there.
What was that?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Of all the witnesses.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Of all the witnesses, of all the witnesses.
Yeah, I was crying about it.
And then here's the worst part.
I don't think I've even toldyou this.
When she brought me in to dothe C-section, she cut my
bladder, so that was just awhole other situation.
She didn't have the confidenceto repair it, because I know
some OBs do repair.
The urologist on staff didn'tfeel qualified to repair it, so
(19:11):
I had to wait for three hours onthe table for this guy to show
up to come, sew my bladder.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This is hilarious in a pathetic sort of way.
She's telling you you need aC-section because you might get
an infection.
And then they cut my bladder,and then she was just sitting
open on the table for threehours.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yes, isn't that hysterical.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's hysterical now.
It's tragic.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
It's hysterical now it was really traumatic then.
I mean to go home from thehospital with a baby in a
catheter and then to have to goto this urology office and, like
I'm a new mom with a littlebaby, there's nobody else in
that office that was like me.
Under 60.
, it was a.
It was an awful experience, youknow, and I I was the
(19:57):
definition of that wordunnecessarian.
I was an unnecessarian, nevershould have gone back for that
C-section in the first place.
And it's why I'm so passionateabout physiological birth now,
because, after having gonethrough it and having another
opportunity to have another baby, thank God that I was able to
get pregnant and have morechildren and to go through it
(20:19):
again.
But this isn't actually on ourlist of questions.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But now I'm curious your thoughts on this because-
Let me, oh, did you want toanswer another question, or are
you going to-.
Yeah, I have another questionfor you, unless you want to
react to this, the idea thathospital or home is better.
It really depends on your localhospital.
It depends on your trust inyour local physician.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
If it's my local hospital, don't go.
It's also important to realizethat you don't necessarily have
to go to your local hospital.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
It depends on your trust in your local physician.
If it's my local hospital, it'salso important to realize that
you don't necessarily have to goto your local hospital.
You can travel to another town.
You can cross state lines ifyou have to.
This is a life event.
You've heard the analogy aboutweddings.
Imagine if you were going toget married but they were
telling you who you could inviteand what color the invitations
(21:10):
were, and you couldn't have thechocolate cake.
You had to have the vanillacake and all that stuff.
You would never go for thatsort of thing.
And they told you you had tohave it at this venue.
And you said, no, no, I want itat this church and you know you
can't have it at this church.
You have to have it.
(21:32):
You'd never go for that sort ofthing, yeah, and you spend lots
of money on your wedding day,yeah.
So think of this as an event,um, because it's something that
a woman will remember for thevery much of the rest of her
life.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
When she can't even remember the name of her kids,
she'll still remember the birthof her birth that's a really
great point, dr Stu, because Ithink that a lot of times first
time moms especially don't.
It's something that we justcan't grasp, that we can fire
somebody, because I do rememberfeeling uncomfortable with the
OB, that I had being like Idon't know if I really like this
(21:59):
lady, but then being like Ican't move.
I can't move practices thislate.
I'm stuck here.
This is what I'm stuck with youknow it again.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
you're like I'm going to interview everybody and I'm
going to find somebody that fitsand that's the right fit.
That's an important point youbrought up is there are a lot of
practices that won't takesomebody in the third trimester.
So that's not right, that'scompletely unethical, but that's
their right to do that.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
There's midwives that won't take people too, Dr Stu.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
No, I know.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
That's the situation that I ran into.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I know, but the midwifery model is such that a
relationship really matters.
Yes that's true when the medicalmodel doesn't matter as much,
but the idea that you can'ttransfer late in the pregnancy
leads you back to the beginningof your pregnancy.
And one of the things I learnedwhen we did an interview with
the Down to Birth podcast teamand they talked about some red
(22:59):
flags, and one of the big redflags that I think is brilliant
is when a woman goes to her OBdoctor for a visit.
They're always a little anxious, a little apprehensive.
So the question you askyourself is how did you feel
when you walked out of theoffice?
Did you feel better or did youfeel worse?
And if you consistently don'tfeel better or you feel actually
worse after your appointment,then that's a sign to get out of
(23:24):
there, find something new,change.
Yeah, absolutely you have to,and not everybody can please
everybody, every practitioner,including myself.
We've had people who come toour office who end up leaving
because they don't like the waywe said something or the way we
did something.
That's possible and that's fine, but that's at least.
(23:46):
I admire those people that leftme or left some of the midwives
I've worked with, because theyknew that that wasn't a good fit
for them.
They didn't just put up with it, and I don't want to be taking
care of somebody who doesn'tthink I'm a good fit for them
either.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Sure, there has to be a mutual trust there.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah Well, in our model there is, but in the
medical model there isn't,because a lot of times, like I
said earlier, you're going to becared for by somebody who
you've never met.
And, by the way, when you comein and labor, the primary
caregiver you have is the nursethat's on labor and delivery and
you've never met her before.
And then you finally get tolike her, and then what happens?
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And then her shift changes, you get somebody else.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, seven o'clock rolls around, you get changed
the shift.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
she's gone right yep, exactly when I had my second
and the home birth situation andall that good stuff, and I was
working with a midwife because Iwas going to have, you know,
home birth and I don't know this.
This was going to probably makeyou mad too.
So that same lady that checkedmy scar, that was all worried
(24:46):
about uterine rupture, she askedon my way out is there anything
else I can do for you as I'mleaving this appointment?
And I said you know what?
My midwife has been having ahard time getting the full
operations record from myC-section.
She had all the summaries.
She knew I had a bladder, thatmy bladder was cut during my
C-section, she knew I hadhysterotomy extensions, but she
(25:08):
hadn't actually gotten thereport to read.
So I said you know, can youhelp me get this?
She said, oh, you just have tocall.
It's a call phone number.
And I'm like, okay, I'm at thehospital, I'm going to go to
records and just get it.
Well, apparently this set off ared flag in her mind because
she decided to go look up myrecords herself and read them
(25:29):
and at the same time I had gonedown to the records department,
I pulled them.
I took a picture of that page,texted it to my midwife.
Well, I get a phone call not toolong later, right after I got
home, from my midwife who saidthis doctor looked up my records
, read the operations report andsaw that it said on the last
(25:51):
line not a candidate for Tolecdue to extensions, and scared my
midwife out of continuing to bemy midwife.
She told her if you continue tobe with her and she has a
uterine rupture, you're going tolose your whole career.
This is it for you.
And my midwife backed out.
(26:12):
I was 35, right at 36 weeks.
It was too late at that pointCause, like you said, you have
to have a relationship withmidwives to get another midwife,
and so my options were cause Icalled the other two midwife
midwife free services in my areawere because I called the other
two midwife free services in myarea, had detailed
conversations with them bothwonderful people but it just
(26:33):
wasn't enough time for them andI was left with what Either go
to the hospital or stay home andsee what happens, and I had
studied like a midwife myself upto this point, and so I ended
up having an unassisted birthwith no midwife, and this is a
scenario that I've seen a lot ofother women get placed into and
(26:59):
it's just kind of sad.
You know that-.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, it's the fear I think you've talked about this
in some of your other podcasts.
It's the fear that runs throughthe system, um, that you know
if I step over the line I canlose my livelihood.
This is the fear that runsthrough the medical system, and
midwives have the same fear.
I mean, in california, you know, midwives are doing things to
(27:24):
women that are 41 weeks and fivedays that they would never do
if there wasn't a 42 week rulein California.
Yeah, they're doing vaginal,they're doing cervical sweeps
and they're putting them oncastor oil and they're doing,
you know, foley balloons andstuff to get women into labor
because in two days, by law theyhave to abandon their patient.
By law, they have to abandontheir patient.
(27:44):
The brilliant people ofSacramento thought this was a
good idea because they'readvised by the brilliant people
of the California MedicalAssociation and the American
College of OBGYN, who arenothing more than a trade lobby.
They are not vested with yourmedical well-being.
That is not their concern.
Their concern is to keep amonopoly on their trade and they
(28:11):
don't like to be called out.
By the way, they'll never belistening to your podcast anyway
, so it won't matter, yeah, younever know.
People who watch Fox News onlywatch Fox News.
People who watch MSNBC onlywatch MSNBC, and they're
uncomfortable watching the otherthing it's very uncomfortable.
I have to read all theliterature that ACOG puts out.
(28:32):
I get aggravated every singleday because I'm seeing all this
stuff.
They don't have to readmidwifery literature.
They don't have to.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Maybe it would break them down if they did.
I'm working on it.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I'm working on it.
It's an imbalance.
At some point it has tocollapse because it's not
sustainable.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Absolutely.
This kind of brings us to oneof the big themes of our podcast
.
Speaking of our podcast iswe're faith-based.
Rachel and I both have a lot offaith in God and in His creation
and that he created our bodiesto give birth.
And that was the big thing thatreally, at the end of the day,
(29:15):
I had to say do I trust thesestudies, do I trust these
doctors at the hospital, or do Itrust that the Lord made my
body to heal, that it did heal,that I did receive evidence that
it was healed and that I knowmy body can give birth, because
it almost did before it wasinterrupted.
(29:35):
And that was really what itcame down to.
And I think so many women justneed that encouragement that
their bodies were built to birth, that they were made to give
birth and, like you said, thebaby has to come out.
And perhaps some people therewill be certain scenarios or
(29:57):
situations where they may not beable to birth naturally for
whatever reason.
Be able to birth naturally forwhatever reason, but to scare
the majority of the populationfor a minority of situations to
me personally doesn't seem fair.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I couldn't have said that any better.
That's right.
I mean, does anybody listeningactually think that one third of
all women can't give birthvaginally?
I mean, that is considered thenorm in the medical community
and no one bats an eyelash at it.
But if you actually step out ofyour box and look back at that,
you'd say that's absurd andyou'd say that's absurd, that's
(30:38):
absurd, and even if we wanted touse science against itself here
.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
If only 5% of people were getting C-sections a couple
decades ago and now 32% ofwomen are, women's bodies are
still women's bodies.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
They haven't changed, unless we've morphed into some
sort of birthlessless bodies,but that's not the case.
Well, how would we, how wouldwe be making it as a species if
this was like really necessary?
Yeah, like remove c-sectionsfrom even like existing, like
they didn't exist in the past,several hundred years ago or so?
And yeah, birth could, you know, end very badly and there was,
you know, some situations, butit wasn't the, it wasn't 30
(31:26):
percent of them, like it justdoesn't logic.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
No, I mean maternal mortality, what you know, you're
talking back in the 16 1700syeah, you know before germ
theory and before semmelweisfigured out, you just have to
wash your hands.
Yeah, it was the puerperalsepsis and puerperal fever.
It was a traumatic thing for alot of women and a lot of women
would tear and there would be norepair and they'd end up with
fistulas and it was not a goodtime.
(31:51):
We've actually come a long wayfrom that, but we haven't.
Since 1970, as I said before,we haven't changed the outcomes
that you're looking for, whichis internal and neonatal
morbidity and mortality, any andyet the C-section rate has gone
(32:12):
up 500%.
So, yeah, I mean, there's noquestion that there's something
wrong.
But the people running thesystem, you know all they can do
is find new ways to meddle.
All the research that's comingout is not about doing less,
it's always about somethingdoing more.
It's like well, let's induceeveryone at 39 weeks, Then we'll
(32:33):
get better outcomes.
Well, that's called stage onethinking.
We didn't even get into stageone thinking today, but stage
one thinking is doing somethingbecause it feels good, Never
asking yourself in the long rundoes it actually do good?
And if we can lower theC-section rate by a couple
percent by inducing every 39weeks, look what we did.
But what did you do to allthose babies and all those
(32:56):
mothers and all those babies whoweren't exposed to their
mother's own hormones?
yeah you know, we have rises inautism, we have rises in
autoimmune disorders in children.
Right now, of what I understandfrom a good friend of mine, we
have about a 54 percent ofchildren have some autoimmune
disorder.
You know, for 30 years ago, um,you know, before 1986, vaccine
(33:19):
law it was about eight or it wassingle digits, and now it's.
But it isn't just the vaccines,it isn't just GMOs, it isn't
just 5G, it is.
You know, there's lots ofthings we can't, you'll never be
able to pin it down.
But to say that eons ofevolution have brought us to a
(33:39):
system that only modern medicinecan fix is a bit of hubris.
That goes a little bit too far.
For even you know, for even meas a physician who's supposed to
be like a cocky son of a bitch,you know I'm not very humble.
I'm very humbled by the process, the fact that women allow me
to be a part of this sacredevent.
(34:00):
And you know, I think about itsometimes.
I, you know, I still watch abirth on Instagram or on a movie
document.
I'm still sobbing.
I give I've seen the same birthin the heads up documentary
that I was involved with tobreach birth at home, probably
75 times and I'm still sobbingat the end of the documentary
every time.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah.
What makes you so passionateabout birth?
How did you even you know getinto that?
How was that something that youwere like?
You know what I want to do Helpwomen birth these babies.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I didn't want to do that.
I wanted to be a forest rangeroh wow.
I wanted to be a forest ranger,oh wow.
But you know, I mean, ascircumstance would have it, I
grew up in a lower middle classfamily, a Jewish family, and
what did mothers want their sons?
(34:54):
To be Doctors.
So you know, even though mymother and I were at batted
heads our entire life, Iprobably went to medical school
because I didn't know what elseto do with my life and I was
good at science.
I was a good student, I gotgood grades, it was easy for me.
It's a different period of time.
I don't know that I'd get intomedical school in 2023.
You know, as a white Jewishmale, I probably wouldn't get in
(35:16):
.
So that's a whole other topic.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
There, too, that's another podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, well, there's some sacred cows here we're just
scratching the surface of.
But so I went in and then Ijust happened to enjoy that
rotation in my third year ofmedical school.
I had no idea that that's whatI wanted to do.
I liked internal medicine, Iliked fixing things and I liked
being a sort of an investigatorand I think internists they're
(35:43):
trying to diagnose diseases andit's kind of a cool thing.
But I really liked the factthat I could do surgery.
I could do longitudinal care,which is taking care of people
over time as an OB.
I could deliver babies, I coulddo a little endocrinology, a
little psychiatry.
There was just there was somuch to it.
And then it was fun catching ababy at three in the morning
(36:12):
instead of like pushingchemotherapy on a 12-year-old
which was the rotation I hadbefore that which was hemoc, and
actually having a couple ofkids die on my service during
that eight-week period I thinkit was eight weeks, might have
been six.
Might eight-week period.
I think it was eight weeks.
It might have been six, yeah, Ithink it was six or eight weeks
, yeah.
And then the next thing, I'mcatching a new life.
So I was sold on that.
And again.
When you're young, you're naiveand you're energetic and you
(36:33):
don't think about the hours, theliability, being on call and
medicine was a whole differentthing.
Even then.
Back then, medicine in the 70sand 80s when I was training, was
a thing where doctors had somestatus and they could make a lot
of money and they could maketheir own decisions and they ran
(36:54):
their own practices and doctors, even in days, actually ran the
hospitals and slowly, whenmanaged care came in in the 80s,
it slowly all changed over anddoctors became an obstacle for
the business majors and thepeople running taking over the
business, because we were theones that had the power to
provide the service and theyneeded us.
(37:14):
But then they found a wayaround that by ending up making
us employees instead of just.
You know, hospitals used tojust have be there and then
doctors would apply for privatedoctors would apply for
privileges.
Now most hospitals havefull-time staff and in labor and
delivery they have what'scalled a laborist, somebody that
just comes in for 12 hours andcatches all the babies in that
(37:35):
period of time and then goeshome.
And the private doctor isobsolete in many, many places.
They're still struggling to dosome, but it used to be that 70%
of the doctors were private.
Now it's about 20% and it willeventually become extinct unless
it makes a comeback outside ofthat system.
And I think there's enoughpeople in the world right now
(37:56):
that have fed up with corporateand government collaboration
becoming so impersonal thatthey're looking for alternatives
and they're forming communitiesof like-minded people and
they're looking at alternativemedicine, which again is a
terrible term.
It's another one of thoselanguage terms.
It isn't alternative medicine,it's another form of medicine.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Sure, sure Like functional medicine.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, like functional medicine, like Ayurvedic
medicine or naturopathicmedicine or you know acupuncture
or herbology or you know thatsort of thing.
So I think people are findingthat a lot of what we've been
taught was wrong.
I mean what people are findingout now that's how I evolved in
the nineties and two thousandswas I began to have to unlearn
(38:41):
everything that I was taught.
People are finding out now,because of the stuff that's
coming out about the whole COVIDvaccine scandal with the hiding
of information and the clinicaltrials not being real and all
that stuff, they're finding outthat maybe I should question if
(39:02):
my doctor is so pro this vaccineand this vaccine sucks, then
maybe I got to take a look at mydoctor's other things that he's
recommending.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I hope people think that.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, it's good.
It's good.
They should challenge itbecause it's making them really
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, I said I hope they question it.
It's good they should challengeit because I hope they question
it.
Yeah, I said I hope theyquestion it.
It's it's time, yeah absolutely.
You know I wanted to ask youbecause you mentioned before
about talking to males, thatit's something you know.
You get to kind of kind of yourthing?
You're like I get to talk tothe men.
Do you kind of your thingYou're like I get to talk to the
(39:43):
men?
Do you think?
I'd like to hear if you thinkthat there's a difference
between husbands or partnersmale partners in the hospital
versus at home, because at homethey kind of seem to fall more
in that doula role almost wherein the hospital, I mean, I just
hear all kinds of stuff aboutmen that pass out or the husband
(40:06):
is getting treated by thenurses because he can't handle
the blood, or whatever thesituation might be.
How has your experience withpartners been?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Well, the problem with the hospital model and
again, this is not all hospitals.
Well, the problem with thehospital model and again this is
not all hospitals Nothing isalways or never, or always
whatever, but the father istreated as a third wheel or
fourth wheel or fifth wheel inthe hospital.
You know the father.
(40:36):
They don't incorporate thefather into the role of
importance.
So I hear many, many fatherstalk about how they didn't even
know where to stand or what todo or what to say or or whatever
else.
And they, they wanted to standup for their, their partner,
because that's what males do,and you know they were put in a
place where you know they don'tknow anything and these experts
are.
So so-called experts are comingin and telling and so they get
(40:58):
disempowered and it's verydemasculating for a lot of them.
In the home setting it's awhole lot of different things.
But then also you have torealize that the kind of
families that choose home birthyou're already starting with,
you know, on different levels,because if they're choosing home
birth, then the husband'susually part of that decision
process and it has been comingto some of the prenatal visits
(41:20):
and again, you know our visitsare worth coming to, because we
spend an hour talking to themand you know if to take your
wife to the obstetrician, youspend 40 minutes in the waiting
room and then you're in thedoctor's office for like nine
minutes.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, you pee in a cup and then they ask you if you
have any questions and then youleave.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Right.
So yeah, I know that we've beensort of, you know, mocking that
system.
It deserves mocking and youcould talk about it in a nice
way, but sometimes you need tobe forceful to make people
listen.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I don't want to turn people off.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
You're being real, though, and that's what I
appreciate about this is so manypeople don't know that this
stuff going into their firstbirth.
And then they're like whydidn't anybody tell me?
Going into their first birth.
And then they're like whydidn't anybody tell me?
And at least if they hearsomething like this, they're
hearing the truth behind it.
Whether the truth sounds prettyor it sounds real, I think
(42:32):
that's what's important to takeaway from this conversation is
what's been sharing?
Is the truth what's been shared?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I would say that people will say, well, it's my
truth and your truth and stuff.
There are facts that can't bedisputed.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I guess you're right.
Some people's truth is thattheir experience was fine.
They didn't have a problem withany of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I want every woman to have that feeling when she
leaves, whether she had aC-section or an induction or a
vaginal delivery or a home birthor whatever.
It would be ideal becauseultimately it shapes like you
were talking earlier, rachel.
It shapes how you bond withyour baby, how you breastfeed,
how you feel about yourself, howyour own self-esteem.
You know there are so manywomen that have had one or two
(43:19):
C-sections that when they havethat successful VBAC at home or
VBAC in the hospital for thatmatter it's a revelation for
them.
Their whole life changes, theirwhole self-image changes and
it's great.
And you know that's one of thebeauties of what we get to do
(43:39):
when we support choice, wesupport informed decision-making
and we don't always have toagree with our client and we
don't have to skew ourcounseling to get them to do
what we want them to do, becausewe're not necessarily worried
about what the hospitaladministrator is going to say to
us on Monday morning.
And we're not necessarilyworried about what the hospital
(43:59):
administrator is going to say tous on Monday morning and we're
not worried about the lawyer,because people who are doing
home birthing are well-informed,they sign consent forms and we
have long conversations andeverybody's aware of the
uncertainty.
See, the midwifery model trustsbirth and they accept
uncertainty.
The medical model doesn't trustbirth, they fear it and they
don't accept any uncertainty.
And they try uncertainty.
The medical model doesn't trustbirth, they fear it and they
don't accept any uncertainty.
(44:20):
And they try to controleverything.
And when you try to controleverything, as I said earlier,
it creates chaos.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, definitely, because you can't.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And then you freak out, and then you don't know how
to go around the leaf.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
I love that analogy.
Then you don't know how to goaround the leaf.
Where do we?
Speaker 3 (44:38):
do I remember that?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Walk around the leaf.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Is there anything that you wanted to leave us with
, or any last words.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, I would tell everyone that's listening,
that's thinking about gettingpregnant, to do your homework,
that is, pregnant, to rememberwhat I said about how do you
feel when you leave yourdoctor's office, and to seek out
midwifery care, even if youdon't plan to use a midwife for
the birth.
But midwives are experts innormal birthing and in prenatal
(45:13):
care and in nurturing and innutrition and in breastfeeding
and in sleep and stressreduction and sleep improvement
and all those things.
And you're not going to getthat in the modern
obstetrician's office.
You might get some pamphlets,you might be handed some
pamphlets to tell you how to eator whatever to do, but it's not
the same thing as havingconversations and doing diet
(45:34):
recall and stuff.
So normal birthing, which isabout 85% of pregnant women,
should be cared for by midwivesand yet about 98% of women in
this country are cared for byobstetricians, and maybe a
little less.
But but that's it's wrongbecause you've got people taking
care of you who aren't expertsin your problem, which isn't
(45:56):
really a problem we have.
That's another thing too.
We have a thing called theproblem list and first thing on
the problem list is pregnancy.
On every doctor's problem listand it's like you're already
setting yourself up.
It's like putting a woman in ahospital gown when she comes in.
You're setting themselves upfor for being that hierarchical
thing and I so I I I made abooboo there when I said that so
(46:18):
most women don't have an issueand therefore should be taking
care of people, but are expertsin normal birthing and that
would be the midwiferyprofession.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Fantastic.
Thank you so so much.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Yes, thank you Dr Stu .
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Dr Stu online.
You can find him atbirthinginstinctscom or follow
on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Instagram at birthinginstinctscom, or follow
on.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Instagram at birthinginstincts as well, and
thank you all so much for tuningin and for being on this
journey with us, as always.
If you'd like to follow alongoutside the podcast, you can
join the mission on Instagram orFacebook, at the Radiant
Mission or on YouTube.
And today we are closing with aBible verse that Dr Stu
actually provided.
He said that this Bible versethat Dr Stu actually provided.
(47:00):
He said that this Bible versebrought up some great memories
for him, and I've actually saidit on here before because it's
one of my favorites.
It's from Numbers.
It is chapter 6, verses 24through 26.
And it says May the Lord blessyou and keep you.
May he make his face shine uponyou and be gracious to you.
May he lift up his countenanceupon you and grant you.
(47:20):
May he make his face shine uponyou and be gracious to you.
May he lift up his countenanceupon you and grant you peace.
We are wishing you a radiantweek.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Amen.
Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission Podcast.
My name is Rebecca Toomey and Iam here with my amazing co-host
and sister, rachel Smith.
We are on a mission toencourage and inspire others as
they navigate through this lifeand with their relationship with
Christ.
Now we have a very specialguest with us today.
(00:46):
Today's episode is acontinuation of last week with
part one on understanding birthwith Dr Stu.
He is a community birthphysician and if you tuned in
last week, I'm sure you learneda lot.
I know I did, and we had greatfeedback from you guys.
I actually had quite a fewfolks say this was my favorite
(01:10):
episode ever.
So I'm really looking forwardto part two going live and I you
know I'm not going to keep youwaiting.
Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Your body is designed to that to deliver a baby, baby
to grow a baby and deliver ababy, and most of the time it
works.
And in the midwifery model,even though, again, they
cherry-pick their clients, youknow they have a c-section rates
from between two and sevenpercent.
Yeah, in 1970, united states,the c-section rate was 5%.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
And now it's 31% 32% in the United States.
In countries like Brazil andSouth Africa it's over 70% in
private hospitals.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
It's crazy.
Yeah, In Miami it's 50%.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, what are we doing to this?
But again, there's no thoughtgiven as to what we're doing to
our species and the futuregenerations.
Every time you mess with Mothernature, there's a ripple effect
.
You may not see it initially,but it's happening and over time
everything that you do.
If you give penicillin, great,you can save somebody.
But then you createmethicillin-resistant staph
(02:16):
aureus and then you have to keepchasing your tail.
It's like with viruses you givea vaccine, the virus mutates.
Nature always figures a way.
Your tail, it's like.
It's like with viruses, you geta vaccine, the virus mutates
nature.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, it's a cascading effect because, like
just thinking of my ownexperience with two c-sections,
I had a terrible timebreastfeeding like I could, my
supply, the quality of my milk,my babies were failure to thrive
, like it was just a cascadethrough their life that then
tied them to a system that wethen were giving formula and and
(02:52):
I don't, I never labored, Iwent through this medical model,
so it's, you know, for aC-section rate of 50% and how
many women are then affectedthat way, and then that affects
that child for life and how theydevelop.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, the medical model doesn't necessarily want
you to get well.
The individual doctors andnurses probably do.
Yeah, but the medical model, youknow, and the pharmaceutical
companies don't really want youto get well.
And the thing about thebreastfeeding thing afterwards
is again the medical model.
Generally you deliver your baby, whether it's by C-section or
(03:32):
vaginal delivery.
You may see a lactationconsultant once or twice while
you're in the hospital.
Then you go home and the doctorsays I'll see you in six weeks.
That's classically theobstetrical model.
That is ridiculous.
I thought it was normal until Istarted work with midwives and I
learned that no, we'll comeback on day one, we'll come back
on day five, we'll come back onday seven.
We'll have a lactationconsultant come on day three and
(03:54):
if you're having any problemswe'll come over and we go to
their houses.
And England has a system that'sbetter than ours because they
have the National Health Servicewhere they have midwives that
can follow you prenatally inlabor or if you transfer to the
hospital, they can still comewith you and then they make home
visits afterwards.
The medical model doesn't?
It doesn't, uh, accommodatethat?
(04:18):
Yeah, probably partly becauseinsurance doesn't pay for it,
sure, yeah, doctors do, did you?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
oh go ahead did you have a heart attack the first
time you saw someone eat aplacenta?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
No, I didn't have a heart attack.
But again, yeah, I think it waswoo.
Yeah, I don't think it was outthere.
I'm sure that A lot of thethings you know the people that
want to burn the cord.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And you don't even get started on lotus births or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I mean, yeah, how do you feel about all that?
You know what?
It doesn't really.
It doesn't affect me at allanymore, because it's a
reasonable, it's a choice thatthey're making.
I don't know of any downside todoing it yeah it doesn't take
any extra time on our part, okay, because if we're going to be
there for three, four hoursafter the birth anyway, so to
take some placenta and put it ina smoothie is not a big deal.
(05:10):
I've never seen someone take apiece of placenta and eat it.
You haven't.
No, I'm sure that they do.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I have actually heard that it's a natural way to
prevent hemorrhage, that if youhave heavy bleeding and you take
a little piece of the placentaand you put it in your cheek, it
will prevent hemorrhaging.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I've heard of that, but that's not the same as
eating it.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
No, no, I mean, some people will eat it, but I guess
you have to eat it right away,huh.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
There's so many natural ways to deal with things
that we in the medicalprofession don't know, and when
I go to a birth, I always gowith a midwife and and the
midwives know things that Idon't and I know things that
they don't and it makes a greatcollaborative.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, that must be awesome.
I'm sure you had a lot of funthe first time you learned about
like shepherd's purse andAngelica and all the herbs.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Even something as simple as Arnica.
I'd never heard of Arnicabefore.
Yeah Well, pulsatilla.
Uh-huh, some crazy roots.
There's all kinds of roots, Idon't know Some barbacoa roots.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
The Pulsatilla, isn't that one used to help flip a
breech baby oh you're asking me.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
He doesn't use the herbs to flip the babies, he
just delivers them.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Okay.
No, there's antimonium which Ithink you give to a baby who's
got like wet lungs when they'reborn.
It's a little early, a little.
That's homeopathy.
You put it under their tongue.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Well, the baby, you can't put it under their tongue.
You just hope you put it intheir mouth and hope it works.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I have some pulsatilla, Rachel.
If you want to try it, let meknow.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
It might be something else.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I mean it's you know, I think I have it for mucus.
I don't think your listenersshould pay attention to this
segment because none of us knowwhat we're talking about.
We are not providing medicaladvice right now.
We are just.
We're not homeopathy experts,we're just chit-chatting.
Well, you know, one of thequestions that someone had asked
(07:10):
and it, honestly, is the wayyou would answer it, I think is
probably the same way that youwould answer the question about
what happens in an emergency isthat a lot of women.
They're like, okay, I'm sold onthis, I want to do a home birth
, but then their husband's likeI'm sold on this, I want to do a
homework, but then theirhusband's like I don't, I don't
(07:31):
like this, you know, I'm scared.
Or maybe it's another familymember or a bunch of family
members.
Do you run into that at all?
Or your midwives?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Sure, it's not.
It's not my job to twist armsor get into family dynamics, but
I'm always available for if aclient wants me to like.
There's a great testimonial onmy website from a couple that
were breached.
They came for a consult andthey got really, really happy
about it.
But they're both their parents.
The two pretend, you know.
(07:58):
The four potential grandparentswere all skeptical about her
having a home breach birth.
So I offered to come and do aSkype in those days, to do a
Skype meeting with them, and Ispent an hour and 20 minutes on
the phone I mean on the Skypedown at their house in their
living room talking to theirfamily members back east, and
after the time it made it verysmooth.
(08:19):
But see, my model allows for meto have the time to do that
Because I can charge what I wantto charge.
I have no master, I'm notemployed and I'm not taking
insurance, so I can charge whatI want.
And again, I understand that alot of people can't have access
to that because, but I can onlydo so many.
I could.
(08:40):
You know, I can only do so manybirths a month.
I'm just one person.
I could only do so many birthsa month.
I'm just one person, but whenI'm in the office and the
husband or the partner, usuallyit's a male partner.
Sometimes it could be a femalepartner, but usually it's the
male partner, because maledynamic is such that we as men
are supposed to be concernedabout safety and cost.
(09:01):
That's sort of in, you know, ina traditional male role.
We can say, well, that's notgood anymore, and we got to get
rid of that masculinity, it'stoxic and blah, blah, blah.
But I'm not going to comment.
That's traditionally what mentend to want to do.
So they have concerns aboutcost and about safety.
(09:21):
So we have these conversationsand we talk about safety and we
talk about safety.
And we talk about safety fromthe aspect of you know well,
what's the default safety?
And they'll say, well, isn'tthe hospital safer?
And then we'll go through andwe'll talk about the numbers and
we'll talk about you know whathappens to you when you go to
the hospital and for certainthings it is safer, but your
chance of having a successfulbirth that your partner feels
(09:47):
really satisfied with is so muchgreater at home than in the
hospital, and that's part ofbeing safe too and part of being
successful Not just the baby inthe bassinet, but how it got
into the bassinet and that'swhat matters.
And you know I, because I'm amale, I have a very, pretty easy
way of talking to other men inthe room.
They sort of will pay attentionwhen I talk.
(10:09):
So I have that advantage.
It's about the only advantage Ihave in my profession, because
everything else isfemale-dominated.
But yeah, and you're not goingto convince everybody and I will
tell a lot of clients thatlisten.
First of all, when you find outyou're pregnant, don't tell
(10:29):
anybody your due date.
All right, you can tell them ifyou're due on September 4th.
Just tell them you're due theend of September so that they
don't have a date to write downand start bugging you and
telling you what their doctorwould do because you've gone a
day overdue and blah, blah, blah, yeah, telling you what their
doctor would do because you'vegone a day overdue and blah,
blah, blah, yeah, yeah.
Secondly, if you, if your birthplan is your birth plan, it's
your private birth plan, Allright.
(10:52):
If you have girlfriends thatyou talk about your menstrual
periods with, that's fine.
But most people aren't going to.
That's not going to be aconversation You're going to
come up with your parents, sodon't necessarily have to tell
everybody everything.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
It can really disturb your peace.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
It's your own and that's why you should never get
in the middle of that as apractitioner, because every
family has a different dynamic.
Yeah, and every family has adifferent history, and to try to
put to use an algorithm likethe medical model would do the
one size fits all.
You have to sign this consentform, you have to do this, you
have to do that.
It just doesn't work.
Some people have.
(11:26):
You know a lot of women havetrauma.
You know a lot of women havebeen assaulted, a lot of women
have been abused.
So you know, a lot of timesbullying a woman in labor is
just a flashback to that abuse,absolutely.
And then you're taking thatmammal and you're having them
secrete all the wrong hormonesat a time when they're supposed
(11:46):
to be trying to go into labor.
And then the labor gets screwedup because you haven't honored
their history.
And how can you expect a doctorwho's never met you before,
who's working a shift, to honoryour history?
He doesn't have time for that.
He's got 16 other people on theward in labor.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
The system is completely busted.
If people can find a midwife,that's where they should start.
And even if you have apregnancy that would be
considered higher risk, liketype one diabetes or twins from
the very beginning, get prenatalcare with a midwife, even if
you have to go with an OB aswell, because you're far more
likely to have better nutritionand better stress reduction and
(12:29):
better sleep and all that stuff,because a midwife will take an
hour every time talking with you, whereas your OB, who might
love to take an hour of talkingwith you, doesn't have that kind
of time Because an OB has anoverhead that's extremely high
and they have to do volume andin order to make their overhead
they have to do volume.
Or if they work for somethinglike Kaiser, they're told that
(12:50):
they have 12 minutes for thisvisit or eight minutes for this
visit and they don't even haveany control over their own
schedule.
I feel for these people.
They didn't go to medicalschool to sign up for that, but
then that's partly their ownfault because they're allowing
it to be done to them.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Because they've gotten themselves in a hamster
wheel of you know, I've got amortgage payment and I've got
three kids going to college andblah, blah, blah and I, I can't,
I can't quit, and if I speak upI'll get fired or I'll lose my
Christmas bonus.
So I I'm just going to keep myhead down, I'm just going to
keep doing the same thing thateverybody's doing, even when I
know it's wrong.
Yeah, and again we get back tothat thing of of I mean, how do
(13:32):
you deal with that?
Every day, there's, it's, it'sclassic cognitive dissonance.
Sure, you know I have a greatcognitive dissonance example
which I love to use if you wantme to do it.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Okay.
So we talked about theC-section rate in the United
States being 5% in 1970.
And now it's like 32%.
So that's about a 500% increasein the C-section rate.
The rate of cerebral palsyhasn't changed.
The rate of hypoxic ischemicencephalopathy hasn't changed.
Neonatal morbidity andmortality probably about the
same.
(14:05):
Maternal mortality might beeven a little worse now because
of all the C-sections.
So we haven't done anything,but we've increased the
C-section rate 500%.
The main reason, of course, isagain, this is not part of the
example is the Friedman Curve ofLabor and Continuous Fetal
Monitoring.
Another podcast, another time.
The World Health Organization,which is not an organization
(14:26):
that I'm very fond of.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Same.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
But they think the C-section rate in Western
countries should be around 10 to15%.
Now we probably know it shouldbe lower than that, but let's
take them at their word andlet's just say it should be 15%.
So let's say that it's 30% inthe United States, but the World
Health Organization says itshould be 15%.
So there's about 4 millionbabies born in the United States
(14:51):
every year.
30% of that is about 1.2, 1.3million cesarean sections done
in the United States every year.
It's by far the most commonoperation performed in the
United States.
Nothing else is even close.
But if you take the WorldHealth Organization's thing that
half of those are unnecessary,that means there's a 600,000 to
700,000 unnecessary cesareansections being done every year.
(15:15):
If there were 600,000unnecessary mastectomies or knee
surgeries or gallbladders beingdone every year, not only would
people be outraged by that andeven the oblivious mainstream
media would be covering it, butinsurance companies would be
outraged because they're payingfor unnecessary surgeries.
They don't want to do that.
But not a peep about 700,000unnecessary cesarean sections.
(15:37):
But here's the real questionwho's doing the unnecessary
cesarean sections?
Because no doctor goes home atnight and says to their spouse
hey, honey, guess what?
I did?
Two unnecessary C-sections.
Today, every C-section a doctordoes they believe is necessary,
yet half are unnecessary.
So how does a doctor?
(16:00):
Well, first of all, they ignorethat data, which is one of the
coping mechanisms for cognitivedissonance, is.
They won't believe that that15% is right.
But also then they'll also saythings like well, it's not me
that's doing the unnecessaryones, it's the other guy.
But what's the other guy saying?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
He's saying it's.
It's not me, it's that guy andthat's.
This is a classic example.
Half of all the C-sectionsbeing done are unnecessary, yet
no one's doing them.
Okay, that's you guys youshould see that people listening
at home.
You should see the look ontheir faces.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
We're both like this is just wild.
You know it's like.
It's like you're talking to thetwo perfect people for this who
had unnecessary c-sections.
I mean, yeah, I had breachedbabies but there it was an
unnecessary C-section that I hadthose but I never.
And it's also it's funnybecause Rebecca and I have on
our list of questions for youwhich, after everything we've
(16:59):
talked about now for all thistime, is kind of funny.
Do you feel birthing at home isa better choice?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I mean from where I stand right now.
I would say for most women theanswer is yes, but ultimately
that choice has to belong tothem.
They have to look at their ownfamily history, their own life
history.
They have to look at what theyvalue, what's important to them.
For some women, having ahospital birth, even having a
scheduled elective C-section, isa godsend because labor is a
(17:31):
bridge they don't want to crossand that's fine, as long as
they've been given informedconsent and they're told the
risks of the cesarean.
And they're told that, by theway, they asked the question
that's never asked of a primatewho's breech, the question that
they never ask you and I wouldbe shocked if they asked you
this.
When they're telling you youneed a C-section, did anyone ask
(17:52):
you if you wanted more children?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
No, no, no, definitely not.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Right.
So all they've done by doing aC-section for your breach is
they've taken the risk theymight've saved on that breach
and now pushed it on all yourfuture children.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
But they don't say that I definitely had a 100%
unnecessary C-section, dr Stu,in that my daughter was in my
pelvis you could see her head.
They knew that she was sunnyside up and this doctor
literally just was tired of howlong it was taking and said well
, you should push it for fourhours that you couldn't get an
(18:29):
infection so you need to move toa C-section.
And I said I don't want to.
And she said well, you have to.
And she had cleared the room ofall the.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
That were in there.
What was that?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Of all the witnesses.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Of all the witnesses, of all the witnesses.
Yeah, I was crying about it.
And then here's the worst part.
I don't think I've even toldyou this.
When she brought me in to dothe C-section, she cut my
bladder, so that was just awhole other situation.
She didn't have the confidenceto repair it, because I know
some OBs do repair.
The urologist on staff didn'tfeel qualified to repair it, so
(19:11):
I had to wait for three hours onthe table for this guy to show
up to come, sew my bladder.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
This is hilarious in a pathetic sort of way.
She's telling you you need aC-section because you might get
an infection.
And then they cut my bladder,and then she was just sitting
open on the table for threehours.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yes, isn't that hysterical.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's hysterical now.
It's tragic.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
It's hysterical now it was really traumatic then.
I mean to go home from thehospital with a baby in a
catheter and then to have to goto this urology office and, like
I'm a new mom with a littlebaby, there's nobody else in
that office that was like me.
Under 60.
, it was a.
It was an awful experience, youknow, and I I was the
(19:57):
definition of that wordunnecessarian.
I was an unnecessarian, nevershould have gone back for that
C-section in the first place.
And it's why I'm so passionateabout physiological birth now,
because, after having gonethrough it and having another
opportunity to have another baby, thank God that I was able to
get pregnant and have morechildren and to go through it
(20:19):
again.
But this isn't actually on ourlist of questions.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But now I'm curious your thoughts on this because-
Let me, oh, did you want toanswer another question, or are
you going to-.
Yeah, I have another questionfor you, unless you want to
react to this, the idea thathospital or home is better.
It really depends on your localhospital.
It depends on your trust inyour local physician.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
If it's my local hospital, don't go.
It's also important to realizethat you don't necessarily have
to go to your local hospital.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
It depends on your trust in your local physician.
If it's my local hospital, it'salso important to realize that
you don't necessarily have to goto your local hospital.
You can travel to another town.
You can cross state lines ifyou have to.
This is a life event.
You've heard the analogy aboutweddings.
Imagine if you were going toget married but they were
telling you who you could inviteand what color the invitations
(21:10):
were, and you couldn't have thechocolate cake.
You had to have the vanillacake and all that stuff.
You would never go for thatsort of thing.
And they told you you had tohave it at this venue.
And you said, no, no, I want itat this church and you know you
can't have it at this church.
You have to have it.
(21:32):
You'd never go for that sort ofthing, yeah, and you spend lots
of money on your wedding day,yeah.
So think of this as an event,um, because it's something that
a woman will remember for thevery much of the rest of her
life.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
When she can't even remember the name of her kids,
she'll still remember the birthof her birth that's a really
great point, dr Stu, because Ithink that a lot of times first
time moms especially don't.
It's something that we justcan't grasp, that we can fire
somebody, because I do rememberfeeling uncomfortable with the
OB, that I had being like Idon't know if I really like this
(21:59):
lady, but then being like Ican't move.
I can't move practices thislate.
I'm stuck here.
This is what I'm stuck with youknow it again.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
you're like I'm going to interview everybody and I'm
going to find somebody that fitsand that's the right fit.
That's an important point youbrought up is there are a lot of
practices that won't takesomebody in the third trimester.
So that's not right, that'scompletely unethical, but that's
their right to do that.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
There's midwives that won't take people too, Dr Stu.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
No, I know.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
That's the situation that I ran into.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I know, but the midwifery model is such that a
relationship really matters.
Yes that's true when the medicalmodel doesn't matter as much,
but the idea that you can'ttransfer late in the pregnancy
leads you back to the beginningof your pregnancy.
And one of the things I learnedwhen we did an interview with
the Down to Birth podcast teamand they talked about some red
(22:59):
flags, and one of the big redflags that I think is brilliant
is when a woman goes to her OBdoctor for a visit.
They're always a little anxious, a little apprehensive.
So the question you askyourself is how did you feel
when you walked out of theoffice?
Did you feel better or did youfeel worse?
And if you consistently don'tfeel better or you feel actually
worse after your appointment,then that's a sign to get out of
(23:24):
there, find something new,change.
Yeah, absolutely you have to,and not everybody can please
everybody, every practitioner,including myself.
We've had people who come toour office who end up leaving
because they don't like the waywe said something or the way we
did something.
That's possible and that's fine, but that's at least.
(23:46):
I admire those people that leftme or left some of the midwives
I've worked with, because theyknew that that wasn't a good fit
for them.
They didn't just put up with it, and I don't want to be taking
care of somebody who doesn'tthink I'm a good fit for them
either.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Sure, there has to be a mutual trust there.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah Well, in our model there is, but in the
medical model there isn't,because a lot of times, like I
said earlier, you're going to becared for by somebody who
you've never met.
And, by the way, when you comein and labor, the primary
caregiver you have is the nursethat's on labor and delivery and
you've never met her before.
And then you finally get tolike her, and then what happens?
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And then her shift changes, you get somebody else.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, seven o'clock rolls around, you get changed
the shift.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
she's gone right yep, exactly when I had my second
and the home birth situation andall that good stuff, and I was
working with a midwife because Iwas going to have, you know,
home birth and I don't know this.
This was going to probably makeyou mad too.
So that same lady that checkedmy scar, that was all worried
(24:46):
about uterine rupture, she askedon my way out is there anything
else I can do for you as I'mleaving this appointment?
And I said you know what?
My midwife has been having ahard time getting the full
operations record from myC-section.
She had all the summaries.
She knew I had a bladder, thatmy bladder was cut during my
C-section, she knew I hadhysterotomy extensions, but she
(25:08):
hadn't actually gotten thereport to read.
So I said you know, can youhelp me get this?
She said, oh, you just have tocall.
It's a call phone number.
And I'm like, okay, I'm at thehospital, I'm going to go to
records and just get it.
Well, apparently this set off ared flag in her mind because
she decided to go look up myrecords herself and read them
(25:29):
and at the same time I had gonedown to the records department,
I pulled them.
I took a picture of that page,texted it to my midwife.
Well, I get a phone call not toolong later, right after I got
home, from my midwife who saidthis doctor looked up my records
, read the operations report andsaw that it said on the last
(25:51):
line not a candidate for Tolecdue to extensions, and scared my
midwife out of continuing to bemy midwife.
She told her if you continue tobe with her and she has a
uterine rupture, you're going tolose your whole career.
This is it for you.
And my midwife backed out.
(26:12):
I was 35, right at 36 weeks.
It was too late at that pointCause, like you said, you have
to have a relationship withmidwives to get another midwife,
and so my options were cause Icalled the other two midwife
midwife free services in my areawere because I called the other
two midwife free services in myarea, had detailed
conversations with them bothwonderful people but it just
(26:33):
wasn't enough time for them andI was left with what Either go
to the hospital or stay home andsee what happens, and I had
studied like a midwife myself upto this point, and so I ended
up having an unassisted birthwith no midwife, and this is a
scenario that I've seen a lot ofother women get placed into and
(26:59):
it's just kind of sad.
You know that-.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, it's the fear I think you've talked about this
in some of your other podcasts.
It's the fear that runs throughthe system, um, that you know
if I step over the line I canlose my livelihood.
This is the fear that runsthrough the medical system, and
midwives have the same fear.
I mean, in california, you know, midwives are doing things to
(27:24):
women that are 41 weeks and fivedays that they would never do
if there wasn't a 42 week rulein California.
Yeah, they're doing vaginal,they're doing cervical sweeps
and they're putting them oncastor oil and they're doing,
you know, foley balloons andstuff to get women into labor
because in two days, by law theyhave to abandon their patient.
By law, they have to abandontheir patient.
(27:44):
The brilliant people ofSacramento thought this was a
good idea because they'readvised by the brilliant people
of the California MedicalAssociation and the American
College of OBGYN, who arenothing more than a trade lobby.
They are not vested with yourmedical well-being.
That is not their concern.
Their concern is to keep amonopoly on their trade and they
(28:11):
don't like to be called out.
By the way, they'll never belistening to your podcast anyway
, so it won't matter, yeah, younever know.
People who watch Fox News onlywatch Fox News.
People who watch MSNBC onlywatch MSNBC, and they're
uncomfortable watching the otherthing it's very uncomfortable.
I have to read all theliterature that ACOG puts out.
(28:32):
I get aggravated every singleday because I'm seeing all this
stuff.
They don't have to readmidwifery literature.
They don't have to.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Maybe it would break them down if they did.
I'm working on it.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I'm working on it.
It's an imbalance.
At some point it has tocollapse because it's not
sustainable.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Absolutely.
This kind of brings us to oneof the big themes of our podcast
.
Speaking of our podcast iswe're faith-based.
Rachel and I both have a lot offaith in God and in His creation
and that he created our bodiesto give birth.
And that was the big thing thatreally, at the end of the day,
(29:15):
I had to say do I trust thesestudies, do I trust these
doctors at the hospital, or do Itrust that the Lord made my
body to heal, that it did heal,that I did receive evidence that
it was healed and that I knowmy body can give birth, because
it almost did before it wasinterrupted.
(29:35):
And that was really what itcame down to.
And I think so many women justneed that encouragement that
their bodies were built to birth, that they were made to give
birth and, like you said, thebaby has to come out.
And perhaps some people therewill be certain scenarios or
(29:57):
situations where they may not beable to birth naturally for
whatever reason.
Be able to birth naturally forwhatever reason, but to scare
the majority of the populationfor a minority of situations to
me personally doesn't seem fair.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I couldn't have said that any better.
That's right.
I mean, does anybody listeningactually think that one third of
all women can't give birthvaginally?
I mean, that is considered thenorm in the medical community
and no one bats an eyelash at it.
But if you actually step out ofyour box and look back at that,
you'd say that's absurd andyou'd say that's absurd, that's
(30:38):
absurd, and even if we wanted touse science against itself here
.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
If only 5% of people were getting C-sections a couple
decades ago and now 32% ofwomen are, women's bodies are
still women's bodies.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
They haven't changed, unless we've morphed into some
sort of birthlessless bodies,but that's not the case.
Well, how would we, how wouldwe be making it as a species if
this was like really necessary?
Yeah, like remove c-sectionsfrom even like existing, like
they didn't exist in the past,several hundred years ago or so?
And yeah, birth could, you know, end very badly and there was,
you know, some situations, butit wasn't the, it wasn't 30
(31:26):
percent of them, like it justdoesn't logic.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
No, I mean maternal mortality, what you know, you're
talking back in the 16 1700syeah, you know before germ
theory and before semmelweisfigured out, you just have to
wash your hands.
Yeah, it was the puerperalsepsis and puerperal fever.
It was a traumatic thing for alot of women and a lot of women
would tear and there would be norepair and they'd end up with
fistulas and it was not a goodtime.
(31:51):
We've actually come a long wayfrom that, but we haven't.
Since 1970, as I said before,we haven't changed the outcomes
that you're looking for, whichis internal and neonatal
morbidity and mortality, any andyet the C-section rate has gone
(32:12):
up 500%.
So, yeah, I mean, there's noquestion that there's something
wrong.
But the people running thesystem, you know all they can do
is find new ways to meddle.
All the research that's comingout is not about doing less,
it's always about somethingdoing more.
It's like well, let's induceeveryone at 39 weeks, Then we'll
(32:33):
get better outcomes.
Well, that's called stage onethinking.
We didn't even get into stageone thinking today, but stage
one thinking is doing somethingbecause it feels good, Never
asking yourself in the long rundoes it actually do good?
And if we can lower theC-section rate by a couple
percent by inducing every 39weeks, look what we did.
But what did you do to allthose babies and all those
(32:56):
mothers and all those babies whoweren't exposed to their
mother's own hormones?
yeah you know, we have rises inautism, we have rises in
autoimmune disorders in children.
Right now, of what I understandfrom a good friend of mine, we
have about a 54 percent ofchildren have some autoimmune
disorder.
You know, for 30 years ago, um,you know, before 1986, vaccine
(33:19):
law it was about eight or it wassingle digits, and now it's.
But it isn't just the vaccines,it isn't just GMOs, it isn't
just 5G, it is.
You know, there's lots ofthings we can't, you'll never be
able to pin it down.
But to say that eons ofevolution have brought us to a
(33:39):
system that only modern medicinecan fix is a bit of hubris.
That goes a little bit too far.
For even you know, for even meas a physician who's supposed to
be like a cocky son of a bitch,you know I'm not very humble.
I'm very humbled by the process, the fact that women allow me
to be a part of this sacredevent.
(34:00):
And you know, I think about itsometimes.
I, you know, I still watch abirth on Instagram or on a movie
document.
I'm still sobbing.
I give I've seen the same birthin the heads up documentary
that I was involved with tobreach birth at home, probably
75 times and I'm still sobbingat the end of the documentary
every time.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah.
What makes you so passionateabout birth?
How did you even you know getinto that?
How was that something that youwere like?
You know what I want to do Helpwomen birth these babies.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I didn't want to do that.
I wanted to be a forest rangeroh wow.
I wanted to be a forest ranger,oh wow.
But you know, I mean, ascircumstance would have it, I
grew up in a lower middle classfamily, a Jewish family, and
what did mothers want their sons?
(34:54):
To be Doctors.
So you know, even though mymother and I were at batted
heads our entire life, Iprobably went to medical school
because I didn't know what elseto do with my life and I was
good at science.
I was a good student, I gotgood grades, it was easy for me.
It's a different period of time.
I don't know that I'd get intomedical school in 2023.
You know, as a white Jewishmale, I probably wouldn't get in
(35:16):
.
So that's a whole other topic.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
There, too, that's another podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, well, there's some sacred cows here we're just
scratching the surface of.
But so I went in and then Ijust happened to enjoy that
rotation in my third year ofmedical school.
I had no idea that that's whatI wanted to do.
I liked internal medicine, Iliked fixing things and I liked
being a sort of an investigatorand I think internists they're
(35:43):
trying to diagnose diseases andit's kind of a cool thing.
But I really liked the factthat I could do surgery.
I could do longitudinal care,which is taking care of people
over time as an OB.
I could deliver babies, I coulddo a little endocrinology, a
little psychiatry.
There was just there was somuch to it.
And then it was fun catching ababy at three in the morning
(36:12):
instead of like pushingchemotherapy on a 12-year-old
which was the rotation I hadbefore that which was hemoc, and
actually having a couple ofkids die on my service during
that eight-week period I thinkit was eight weeks, might have
been six.
Might eight-week period.
I think it was eight weeks.
It might have been six, yeah, Ithink it was six or eight weeks
, yeah.
And then the next thing, I'mcatching a new life.
So I was sold on that.
And again.
When you're young, you're naiveand you're energetic and you
(36:33):
don't think about the hours, theliability, being on call and
medicine was a whole differentthing.
Even then.
Back then, medicine in the 70sand 80s when I was training, was
a thing where doctors had somestatus and they could make a lot
of money and they could maketheir own decisions and they ran
(36:54):
their own practices and doctors, even in days, actually ran the
hospitals and slowly, whenmanaged care came in in the 80s,
it slowly all changed over anddoctors became an obstacle for
the business majors and thepeople running taking over the
business, because we were theones that had the power to
provide the service and theyneeded us.
(37:14):
But then they found a wayaround that by ending up making
us employees instead of just.
You know, hospitals used tojust have be there and then
doctors would apply for privatedoctors would apply for
privileges.
Now most hospitals havefull-time staff and in labor and
delivery they have what'scalled a laborist, somebody that
just comes in for 12 hours andcatches all the babies in that
(37:35):
period of time and then goeshome.
And the private doctor isobsolete in many, many places.
They're still struggling to dosome, but it used to be that 70%
of the doctors were private.
Now it's about 20% and it willeventually become extinct unless
it makes a comeback outside ofthat system.
And I think there's enoughpeople in the world right now
(37:56):
that have fed up with corporateand government collaboration
becoming so impersonal thatthey're looking for alternatives
and they're forming communitiesof like-minded people and
they're looking at alternativemedicine, which again is a
terrible term.
It's another one of thoselanguage terms.
It isn't alternative medicine,it's another form of medicine.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Sure, sure Like functional medicine.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, like functional medicine, like Ayurvedic
medicine or naturopathicmedicine or you know acupuncture
or herbology or you know thatsort of thing.
So I think people are findingthat a lot of what we've been
taught was wrong.
I mean what people are findingout now that's how I evolved in
the nineties and two thousandswas I began to have to unlearn
(38:41):
everything that I was taught.
People are finding out now,because of the stuff that's
coming out about the whole COVIDvaccine scandal with the hiding
of information and the clinicaltrials not being real and all
that stuff, they're finding outthat maybe I should question if
(39:02):
my doctor is so pro this vaccineand this vaccine sucks, then
maybe I got to take a look at mydoctor's other things that he's
recommending.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I hope people think that.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, it's good.
It's good.
They should challenge itbecause it's making them really
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, I said I hope they question it.
It's good they should challengeit because I hope they question
it.
Yeah, I said I hope theyquestion it.
It's it's time, yeah absolutely.
You know I wanted to ask youbecause you mentioned before
about talking to males, thatit's something you know.
You get to kind of kind of yourthing?
You're like I get to talk tothe men.
Do you kind of your thingYou're like I get to talk to the
(39:43):
men?
Do you think?
I'd like to hear if you thinkthat there's a difference
between husbands or partnersmale partners in the hospital
versus at home, because at homethey kind of seem to fall more
in that doula role almost wherein the hospital, I mean, I just
hear all kinds of stuff aboutmen that pass out or the husband
(40:06):
is getting treated by thenurses because he can't handle
the blood, or whatever thesituation might be.
How has your experience withpartners been?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Well, the problem with the hospital model and
again, this is not all hospitals.
Well, the problem with thehospital model and again this is
not all hospitals Nothing isalways or never, or always
whatever, but the father istreated as a third wheel or
fourth wheel or fifth wheel inthe hospital.
You know the father.
(40:36):
They don't incorporate thefather into the role of
importance.
So I hear many, many fatherstalk about how they didn't even
know where to stand or what todo or what to say or or whatever
else.
And they, they wanted to standup for their, their partner,
because that's what males do,and you know they were put in a
place where you know they don'tknow anything and these experts
are.
So so-called experts are comingin and telling and so they get
(40:58):
disempowered and it's verydemasculating for a lot of them.
In the home setting it's awhole lot of different things.
But then also you have torealize that the kind of
families that choose home birthyou're already starting with,
you know, on different levels,because if they're choosing home
birth, then the husband'susually part of that decision
process and it has been comingto some of the prenatal visits
(41:20):
and again, you know our visitsare worth coming to, because we
spend an hour talking to themand you know if to take your
wife to the obstetrician, youspend 40 minutes in the waiting
room and then you're in thedoctor's office for like nine
minutes.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, you pee in a cup and then they ask you if you
have any questions and then youleave.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Right.
So yeah, I know that we've beensort of, you know, mocking that
system.
It deserves mocking and youcould talk about it in a nice
way, but sometimes you need tobe forceful to make people
listen.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I don't want to turn people off.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
You're being real, though, and that's what I
appreciate about this is so manypeople don't know that this
stuff going into their firstbirth.
And then they're like whydidn't anybody tell me?
Going into their first birth.
And then they're like whydidn't anybody tell me?
And at least if they hearsomething like this, they're
hearing the truth behind it.
Whether the truth sounds prettyor it sounds real, I think
(42:32):
that's what's important to takeaway from this conversation is
what's been sharing?
Is the truth what's been shared?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I would say that people will say, well, it's my
truth and your truth and stuff.
There are facts that can't bedisputed.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I guess you're right.
Some people's truth is thattheir experience was fine.
They didn't have a problem withany of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I want every woman to have that feeling when she
leaves, whether she had aC-section or an induction or a
vaginal delivery or a home birthor whatever.
It would be ideal becauseultimately it shapes like you
were talking earlier, rachel.
It shapes how you bond withyour baby, how you breastfeed,
how you feel about yourself, howyour own self-esteem.
You know there are so manywomen that have had one or two
(43:19):
C-sections that when they havethat successful VBAC at home or
VBAC in the hospital for thatmatter it's a revelation for
them.
Their whole life changes, theirwhole self-image changes and
it's great.
And you know that's one of thebeauties of what we get to do
(43:39):
when we support choice, wesupport informed decision-making
and we don't always have toagree with our client and we
don't have to skew ourcounseling to get them to do
what we want them to do, becausewe're not necessarily worried
about what the hospitaladministrator is going to say to
us on Monday morning.
And we're not necessarilyworried about what the hospital
(43:59):
administrator is going to say tous on Monday morning and we're
not worried about the lawyer,because people who are doing
home birthing are well-informed,they sign consent forms and we
have long conversations andeverybody's aware of the
uncertainty.
See, the midwifery model trustsbirth and they accept
uncertainty.
The medical model doesn't trustbirth, they fear it and they
don't accept any uncertainty.
And they try uncertainty.
The medical model doesn't trustbirth, they fear it and they
don't accept any uncertainty.
(44:20):
And they try to controleverything.
And when you try to controleverything, as I said earlier,
it creates chaos.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, definitely, because you can't.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And then you freak out, and then you don't know how
to go around the leaf.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
I love that analogy.
Then you don't know how to goaround the leaf.
Where do we?
Speaker 3 (44:38):
do I remember that?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Walk around the leaf.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Is there anything that you wanted to leave us with
, or any last words.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, I would tell everyone that's listening,
that's thinking about gettingpregnant, to do your homework,
that is, pregnant, to rememberwhat I said about how do you
feel when you leave yourdoctor's office, and to seek out
midwifery care, even if youdon't plan to use a midwife for
the birth.
But midwives are experts innormal birthing and in prenatal
(45:13):
care and in nurturing and innutrition and in breastfeeding
and in sleep and stressreduction and sleep improvement
and all those things.
And you're not going to getthat in the modern
obstetrician's office.
You might get some pamphlets,you might be handed some
pamphlets to tell you how to eator whatever to do, but it's not
the same thing as havingconversations and doing diet
(45:34):
recall and stuff.
So normal birthing, which isabout 85% of pregnant women,
should be cared for by midwivesand yet about 98% of women in
this country are cared for byobstetricians, and maybe a
little less.
But but that's it's wrongbecause you've got people taking
care of you who aren't expertsin your problem, which isn't
(45:56):
really a problem we have.
That's another thing too.
We have a thing called theproblem list and first thing on
the problem list is pregnancy.
On every doctor's problem listand it's like you're already
setting yourself up.
It's like putting a woman in ahospital gown when she comes in.
You're setting themselves upfor for being that hierarchical
thing and I so I I I made abooboo there when I said that so
(46:18):
most women don't have an issueand therefore should be taking
care of people, but are expertsin normal birthing and that
would be the midwiferyprofession.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Fantastic.
Thank you so so much.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Yes, thank you Dr Stu .
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Dr Stu online.
You can find him atbirthinginstinctscom or follow
on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Instagram at birthinginstinctscom, or follow
on.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Instagram at birthinginstincts as well, and
thank you all so much for tuningin and for being on this
journey with us, as always.
If you'd like to follow alongoutside the podcast, you can
join the mission on Instagram orFacebook, at the Radiant
Mission or on YouTube.
And today we are closing with aBible verse that Dr Stu
actually provided.
He said that this Bible versethat Dr Stu actually provided.
(47:00):
He said that this Bible versebrought up some great memories
for him, and I've actually saidit on here before because it's
one of my favorites.
It's from Numbers.
It is chapter 6, verses 24through 26.
And it says May the Lord blessyou and keep you.
May he make his face shine uponyou and be gracious to you.
May he lift up his countenanceupon you and grant you.
(47:20):
May he make his face shine uponyou and be gracious to you.
May he lift up his countenanceupon you and grant you peace.
We are wishing you a radiantweek.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Amen.
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