Chicome, Mi Corazon Mexica

Episode Transcript
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Nicte-Ha (00:02):
This guest is someone I am absolutely thrilled to my
core to be able to bring onto mypodcast.
Chicome is a professional fineartist whose work I have
followed and admired for years.
His work has been featuredinternationally in many
galleries and shows.
He's a conchero dancer anddeeply involved in leadership of

(00:23):
Acalpuli in Mexico City, wherehe regularly participates in and
features historically accuraterituals on his Instagram and
other social media accounts.
He's also the artist behindNicolason Mexica, a
multi-platform brand thatfeatures his artwork books and
other creative collaborations.
He is, I think, a spiritualleader, a scholar, an incredibly

(00:48):
talented artist, and a verygenerous person with his time
and his knowledge.
I was so honored to have himspeak about his journey on my
podcast, his art, his religion,his process, and his history.
I just want to say thank you toChico Met, and I hope that you,
the listeners of the RainbowHouse, will also enjoy what he

(01:11):
has to say.
I'm so excited to talk to you.
This is such an honor.
It's lovely to talk to you too.
Um, and so uh I, you know, I'mgonna do a little preview
opening for people, but if youcan just introduce yourself to
the listeners of the podcast andjust talk about who you are,

(01:34):
where you're where you'recurrently at, and the work that
you do.
You will dive into those inmore detail.
But if you can give us just anoverview to introduce yourself,
that would be wonderful.

Chicome (01:44):
Well, I'm uh Chico Mate Squinli Amatapali, which is my
ceremonial name.
The name my parents gave me isDavid Gramar Romero.
I'm Chicano, I'm from LA, andI'm mixed race.
My dad's white, and my mom isMexican, and she's also mixed
race, and her mother isHuirarica, which is a tribe from
like Jalisco, Nayari, thatarea.
And um so I'm an artist, and uhmy work is about reconnecting

(02:07):
with our ancestral roots.
So my my grandmother, mygreat-grandmother was the last
person in my family to speakHuida.
And uh my grandmother was takenaway from her family, and she
was raised by a mainstream likemestizo Mexican family, and uh,
but she was very little.
So, like in her generation,like she lost the language and
the culture and all that, butshe didn't lose the racism.
Like people treated her reallybadly for being Native American.

(02:30):
So I, you know, like I feel youknow, it's like claiming
indigeneity is I think it'sdifficult when you're
detribalized and your family hasbeen removed from the context
in which they originally were.
So I usually don't say that Iam Wida, but I will say that I
am a Wida descent.
And um, because it's like and Ithe reason I'm hesit hesitant
to say I'm Wida is becausethere's no Wida community that

(02:51):
would say, like, oh yes, you'redefinitely part of us, or you're
like belong, you know, likelike uh I I don't belong in that
way.
And that's what my work isabout.
My work is about like how do wefind our way back to indigenous
identity and indigenousspirituality in particular, when
you know, through history we'vethat's been taken away from us.
And the reason that I feellike, even though I feel like
I'm hesitant to say that I havea particular tribal identity

(03:13):
that I can unhesitatingly saythat's what I am, I don't feel
the same way by claiming NativeAmericann-ness, which is funny,
because I feel like mygrandmother may not have gotten
the culture, which is what wouldallow us in language, which
would allow us to say that we'reWida, but like she did get the
racism, and that's because ofbeing Native American.
My mother did too.
So, you know, they ended upgoing to the United States as

(03:34):
undocumented immigrants, whichis why I was, you know, raised
there.
And so, like, my life story hasbeen defined by the indigenous
identity of my mother and mygrandmother.
So that's that's part of it.
And then the other part of itis that I practice ceremony in
Mexico.
So I started doing ceremonywhen I was in the US.
I do uh like concheto ceremony,which is a kind of intertribal

(03:57):
tradition, which is mostly doneby people who are in a situation
similar to mine, where peoplewho are detribalized, not
everybody.
A lot of people who areconchetto dancers or straight up
whatever tribe it is that theybelong to, you know, like my own
my own kakuli has members whoare masawa, oh my god, uh
Purepecha, and there's anotherAwave from um the coast of
Oaxaca.

(04:17):
And uh they are notdetribalized, and they practice
uh conchero ceremony with me.
Uh so you know, and so I dothat, and I've been doing that
for a long time.
I'm the capitana of my group.
I've been I'm a firebearer inceremony, um, and uh yeah,
that's what I do.

Nicte-Ha (04:34):
And so you mentioned your great-grandmother is Wida.
And so I think that some a lotof folks here in the United
States, you know, we're veryfamiliar with because I'm I'm
based in Chicago, and I think alot of the people that listen to
me or the people that listen tome, I can't say a lot.
They are familiar with AmericanNative American tribes here in

(04:54):
the United States, like the youknow, the Lakota and the
Cherokee and all of that.
And so if you can explain wherethe Wira people are
traditionally from, and arethere still there, it sounds
like there are still Wiracommunities extant in intact in
Mexico.
And so can you talk a littlebit about where the Wira people
come from in within Mexico?

Chicome (05:14):
Yeah, so Wida is short for Wiraica, and that's the name
that Wira people callthemselves or maybe ourselves.
And Huichol is the more commonname, that's the name that most
people would know.
So my grandmother, I could alsosay that she was Huichola.
So the Wira are from Jalisco,where it met meets uh Zacatecas

(05:35):
and a little bit from Nayarit,and you know, it's like they
live at they live up in themountains, and and there's like
hundreds of thousands of of Wirapeople.
So there's there's like somethere's small communities, but
there's a a lot of them.
And uh the we the Wida tribe isalso one of the the nations
that's um it's they're they'repretty famous actually in in
Mexico.
It's like we we like there's areally strong tradition, an art

(05:59):
making tradition, and they'realso particularly known for
peyote and like uh having a lotof uh ceremonies around peyote.
So it's like and they're alsovery like um outgoing.
So it's like the the Cora, theCora live right next to the
Wida, but the Cora are very likeinsular and they kind of stayed
to themselves, so they're notas well known.
But but uh the Wida like didtravel all over Mexico and they

(06:19):
sell art crafts and you know, solike they're they're very like
famous within Mexico.
And my grandmother is is uh isWida or was Wida anyway.

Nicte-Ha (06:28):
Are are your grandmother and your your mother
are they both artists as well?
And what are their names?
Because I I've heard of theWeech old people mostly I think
because related to beating,yeah.
And so I know they're reallyfamous for beating and a few
other, I think like a paper artform.
But what is what's your motherand your grandmother's names,
and are they both artists aswell?

Chicome (06:49):
Well, my grandmother was uh Justina de Leon and my
mother is Rebecca GrimmardRomero.
And no, they weren't artists,but they were like they're
heart, they have the souls ofartists.
They weren't artists becausethey didn't have like they were
in an underprivileged situationwhere being an artist wasn't
really an option for them, youknow, in my opinion.
Like my but my grandmother wasan amazing, she was a seamstress

(07:10):
and she was an amazing, she didembroidery and things like
that.
Like her her crafts are prettyconventional, you know.
There were like flowers and youknow, things that are you know
pretty conventional.
Like I never saw her likereally I never seen anything
where she really goes crazy.
My mother, on the other hand,goes crazy.
Like she makes some truly wild,beautiful things, you know, but
like she was an undocumentedimmigrant in the US.

(07:31):
She worked in a sweatshop, youknow.
Like uh she ended up opening alittle.
I grew up in a with adressmaking store in our living
room where my mom madequinceanieta dresses, you know.
Like, so like she wasn't giventhe opportunity for like you
know, girls who want quinceanetadresses don't normally want
like avant-garde like works ofart, you know.
So like uh she didn't reallyhave the opportunity when I was
growing up to like make, youknow, like to express herself.

(07:52):
But now that I'm an adult, I doa lot of work with my mother.
Like I make really elaborateembroidery designs, and my
mother is fearless.
And she will take you know a10-foot-long piece of fabric and
completely embroider the wholedamn thing with like extremely
intricate designs that I design,you know, and so she'll you
know, she'll do that with me,but she's also she'll also just
she just started doing things onher own.
She like made me like severalsets of like crocheted lucha

(08:14):
libre outfits, you know, likeall like crocheted like a like a
tablecloth, you know?
Like uh, I mean amazing.
Like, like she just she reallylike like I think that had my
mother like had theencouragement or ever even like
thought to look and imaginesomething other than what you
know, because she basically didthe same kind of embroidery and
stuff that my my my grandmotherdid.

(08:35):
But the minute like that, youknow, I gave her the opportunity
or like suggested to her thepossibility that like you could
make something like weirder andmore more like fabulous, like
she did.
So like I think that my motheris an artist, even if she
doesn't have that official uhdesignation, like I do.
I had I got you know, I waslucky.
I I got I went to art school,you know, I grew up in the US.
Like my mother was the one whosuffered, like who did all of

(08:57):
that suffering.
Like I I was a beneficiary ofall of her work to help us have
a better life.

Nicte-Ha (09:04):
That's wonderful.
It sounds like you come fromreally a strong female line, and
uh and it sounds like they werea huge influence on you and the
way that you developed in yourdrive.
So can you talk a little bitabout your primary your primary
art artistic form?
I mean, I'm familiar with yourpainting, but I see that you
have a wide variety of thingsthat you sell, including, you

(09:26):
know, the books.
And I bought one of yourcalendars a few years ago.
It was beautiful.
And so if you can talk a littlebit about your favorite mediums
to work in and all the mediumsthat you work in and what you're
what you're what you'reprimarily interested in at on
this at this moment.

Chicome (09:43):
Well, I consider myself primarily an artist.
If you had mentioned my books,I would have forgotten to say
that I'm also a writer.
Like I really do like to write,like I write books and things,
but like I've in my soul, I'msuch a like I'm an artist, so
that's how how I think about it.

Nicte-Ha (09:55):
So you're like primarily a visual artist is how
you identify.
And then is there like a mediumlike painting, printing?
Because I know you've done allof those things.

Chicome (10:04):
I paint, well, I make like paintings in oil, uh
acrylic, I do a lot of stuffwith marker and ink on paper.
The marker isn't like themarker um is like fast and easy,
so it's a way for me to I'mvery productive.
Like I have a really crazy workethic and I have a hard time
relaxing.
And um, so I just like work,work, work, work.
And because I feel like eventhough I'm working all the time,
I don't make enough, likemarker and ink is like the

(10:26):
fastest way I've come up withmaking a painting.
So it allows me to work evenmore.
But like uh I do a lot withthat.
But yeah, so like it mytechnique is very traditional.
It's I went to art school andstudied like you know, like six
hours a day of painting nudefigures and landscapes and
apples and sorry, there's a lotof like um stuff outside, but

(10:47):
you know, painting like verytraditional technique.
And I went to a verytraditional school for three
years, and then I went to likean avant-garde, the San
Francisco Art Institute in SanFrancisco, which is which is a
lot more like performance artand installation and stuff like
that, uh, and which I'm sograteful.
I feel like I got a reallywell-rounded education because
like I I feel like if like Ihave a gift for painting, like

(11:09):
my paintings are really um likeold mastery, like very
realistic, and I don't, youknow, like uh um that's not a
word I would use to complimentmy own work, but that's what
other people say about it.
But like uh, but uh and I thatwas developed by going to art
school.
But that art school won't teachyou it teaches you how to

(11:29):
paint, it doesn't teach you whyto paint, you know, like what's
the point of painting like nakedladies in fruit?
You know, like there's no, youknow, it's like unless you have
something to say, it's likethere's no point.
And and the other school wasall about theory, you know, and
so like that's where you know II I uh I learned about like why
to paint and like you know howto push my artwork.
It's funny because that schoolwas very um, it was very much

(11:51):
about like the kind ofcontemporary art you would see
in a museum or in like anupscale gallery or something.
It was very like umtheoretical.
And I love that kind ofartwork, I really do.
And it's like uh now that'swhat I was doing for quite a few
years after I graduated fromschool, but um because I started
doing ceremony, uh I starteddoing ceremony when I was up,

(12:11):
28, 29, uh, and um it opened upa whole new way of being an
artist to me, which is you know,where it's like the the
traditional western way ofthinking about art making is um
it's through the lens of likethese fantasies that we have
that come from like the 19thcentury, you know, like Van
Gogh, you know, like the crazyartist and the girl, the the you

(12:32):
know, the the wild genius, youknow, and like and every artist
is like is supposed to be likesome kind of like uh uh genius
remaking the world of art andreimagining everything from the
ground up, you know, and andthat works if you're a genius,
you know, like but for the vastmajority of artists, that's not
really a working option, youknow, and whereas indigenous uh

(12:53):
and traditional cultures aroundthe world tend to think of art
making more as like um as ameans of it's like a language
that that already exists andthat you perfect in order to
tell a story.
And uh and when that sort ofkind of started to dawn on me
about the age of 30, 31, it'slike my the way I make art
started to shift, uh, where likeI'm not really concerned about

(13:16):
personal expression, like orlike what I myself have to say,
you know, like like I feel likeif I have anything interesting
to say, it's it begins and endswith being a detribalized person
who wants to reconnect.
And basically, like, and I feellike do I do have some
interesting things to say aroundthat.
Everything else is our ourtraditional stories, our

(13:38):
heritage that I am I'm I'mtelling it in a way that makes
sense to us today.
So it's like I started learninghow to read ancient writing and
glyphs.
I am I'm a complete and utternerd, an endless like patience
to read academic literature, andyou know, and early on I
realized that you know, my I'vebeen selling my work and living
off the sale of my work since Iwas since I was about 28.

(13:59):
And so like that that's a hugeprivilege right there.
So like I haven't had a joblike other than that, you know,
like me being an artist since Iwas in I'm 50 and since I was up
in my 20s, and uh, and thatallows me to travel.
So it's like pretty early on,like I had a show when I was
about 30 and I sold a lot.

(14:20):
I made like like 40 somethousand dollars on that show,
and I was like, um, unlike anormal person who would be like,
I'm gonna put it in my savingsaccount and think about buying a
house, I was like, whatfabulous work of art can I make
that'll cost me $40,000 for mynext show?
That's what I decided to do.

Nicte-Ha (14:36):
Just move from show to show, just using the proceeds
to fund the next one.
You're like, it's fine, I caneat ramen for eight months as
long as I can spend money on myart.

Chicome (14:45):
It's not the wise way to live, but like, I mean, now I
have a savings account.
As I'm getting older, I'm like,ah, maybe I should.
But like, I didn't.
You know, so at that point, Iwas like, what am I the money
was burning a hole in my pocket?
I'm like, I gotta spend it onsomething fabulous.
And for me, fabulous meant Imoved to Huchitan, which is a
Zapotec town in southern Mexico,which has a queer, is one of
the only indigenous communitiesthat's that still has a

(15:08):
two-spirit tradition.
I'm gay.
So like uh so I went therepartly because I wanted to
encounter like two-spirit peopleliving in this community where
that's part of the traditionalway of living.
And uh I was there for like ayear and I hired indigenous
women and two-spirit people toembroider my designs.
And I spent like $40,000 onthat year living and making like

(15:30):
fabulous, like hand-embroideredLucia Libra outfits.
Uh, and it turned out to be agood investment.
I sold them all on my nextshow.
Um, but like uh but but thepoint of that story is that like
um between my utter nerdinessreading academic literature and
my privilege as an artist whohas been able to live in
indigenous communities, and uh,you know, because we have a lot
of fantasies about what itmeans.

(15:50):
You know, if you're I mean, Ithink we all do, and if you're a
detribalized person inparticular, it's like there's a
lot of fantasies about what ourheritage means.
And um, you know, and Icertainly had those fantasies.
And when I went to live inthese communities or invite
Indigenous people to live withme in Mexico City, which is
where I've been for a very longtime, it kind of stripped me of
these fantasies, but alsoeducated me in a really profound

(16:11):
way in terms of a lot of thingsthat like I practice a kind of
indigenous spirituality, like aconchero dance, which is
undeniably of native roots.
It's like, I think some peoplethink that it's like a new age
kind of invention or something,but it's like it's not.
It's like there's paintings ofconchero dancers from like the
18th century, you know, likelike we are it's a very old

(16:33):
tradition, but it's a verysyncretic tradition.
It's like completely, totallymixed with Catholicism.
So it's like we have we havethis way of doing ceremony,
which is completely NativeAmerican, but the reason we're
doing the ceremony tends to bewrapped up with Catholic ideals.
So it's like we go and dancewith the Virgin of Guadalupe and
the Señor de Chalma and thingslike that.
And uh and nowadays, concertodance has been getting getting

(16:54):
mixed up with new age ideas.
Like that's the new culturalappropriation and effect.
But living with indigenouscommunities, it's like where the
world view is completely andutterly different.
It's like has allowed me to umroot.
I feel like what I'm learningas a concetto dancer, which is
like I feel like my learning asa concerto dancer has to do with

(17:15):
like more with structure andlike how do you carry out a
ceremony and what does theceremony look like and move
praying to the four directionsand that kind of thing.
Whereas like the why are wedoing it, I don't I haven't
learned that so much throughconcerto dance itself.
That's something that I'velearned more by actual
indigenous people who havetaught me in different
communities, as well as likereading like anthropological

(17:35):
literature, like you know, andthings like that.
So, anyway, I that was a verylong answer that I'm not sure I
answered.

Nicte-Ha (17:41):
No, it's okay.
It's wonderful.
I think it all connects reallywell, and it actually touches on
a lot of the things that I wascurious about.
But I think just knowing howyou moved, you know, moving into
and out of primarily indigenouscommunities.
I was wondering, is there thatwas actually one of my
questions, is there a bigdifference between the kind of

(18:01):
urban practice of this syncreticconchero tradition, or even
sort of more explicitly a, Iguess it would call mexica
revivalism, kind of like overtlyworshiping, you know, the the
gods of of the mexica or otherbecause um I think they were
probably similar, but I'mguessing that different tribes

(18:23):
in Mexico had different um gods,right, that they followed and
they honored.
And so is there a bigdifference between the urban
practice of what you're doingwith Conchero dance and what you
might be seeing in like Mexicarevivalism?
I don't know how much of thatthere is in Mexico City, versus
the sentiment in more likerural, indigenous majority
communities that you visited.

Chicome (18:44):
Yeah, no, there's a big difference.
Like so, like the so I that'swhat I do.
It's like like I I've beensaying I'm a concerto dancer,
I'm a concher, because it's likeit's hard to say exactly what I
do.
Like, like like concerto danceis this ancient tradition that
is syncretic and people dancefor the Virgin of Guadalupe and
all that.
And then there's this otherkind of dance, there's like
Aztec dance, which is a terriblename for it, and that's kind of

(19:06):
what you're referring to.
And uh that's basically peoplewho have taken concerto dance
and stripped away the Catholicstuff and substituted it.
Substitute is the wrong word,it's like restored it to what it
was originally, which wouldhave been like instead of
praying for dancing for theVirgin of Guadalupe, you're
dancing for Tonan Sing, thegoddess of the earth, or instead
of the Señor de Chalma, it'slike the Scalipoca, and um, and

(19:27):
that's what I do.
And so, like uh uh so so I I soI think I'll describe the
indigenous way first.
So it's like not that that'snot indigenous, it is like we
are of indigenous descent, butit's it's it is quite different,
and it's much, much moresyncretic, it's much more
influenced by the West.
So, like when I live with theWichol in particular, the

(19:47):
Wirarica, it's like uh but thisis true of all Mesoamerican
indigenous communities that havestayed on their land and
maintained language and cultureand roots in a really profound
way, you know.
So it's like, and what I wasgonna say is true is like it's a
particular relationship tospirituality which has to do
with reciprocity.
And that's something that isnever talked about in Mexica

(20:10):
Cochero type culture, liketraditions.
So if you and and and involvesome kind of intense things, in
particular, like animalsacrifice.
So like that's very commoneverywhere.
Um uh so like and the idea isthat like the the teteo, the
gods, the they give useverything that we need to live,

(20:32):
everything.
So like we don't possessanything at all.
Like we are we are like theselike these beings living on the
earth who are like consuming andconsuming in order to live.
And all of these beings aredying and suffering for our
sake.
That and if being a vegetariandoes not let you off the hook.
Indigenous spirituality isanimistic in the sense that
everything that exists is aliveand has a soul and has agency

(20:54):
and will.
So that means animals,obviously, but also plants and
also like the earth herself andthings like that.
So it's like uh corn issimultaneous, it's a it's a
vegetable and it'ssimultaneously a god, a teo.
And uh and the corn chooses tobe reborn every single year, to
grow, and to suffer and die forour sake.
Like every single year of cornthat we dry, that we grind on

(21:19):
the mitata to make the tortilla,that we cook to make the
tortilla, that we gnash betweenour teeth, it's suffering
through that entire process inorder to allow us to have the
flesh that we possess, to havethe life that we live.
And that's like the fundamentalindigenous idea: the sun, the
earth, the corn, everything, thewater, everything is dying to
give us life.
And they're infinitely generousand willing to do that through

(21:42):
all eternity, but they don'thave infinite energy, they need
to be fed.
So it's like right now inMexico is the rainy season.
It's raining and raining andraining, the corn is growing,
and the earth is giving andgiving and giving, but right
around like November, right atthe end of November, it's gonna
stop raining, and essentiallythat energy is done.
Like she's given all she cangive, and it's and she dies.

(22:05):
The corn dies, the plants die,the fields turn golden, and then
there's like you know, five,six months of of death, of
dryness.
And that's when people come in.
Like, we were created onpurpose so that we could live in
a dynamic relationship with thenatural world.
So, like, the world requiresenergy to live, and the primary

(22:27):
source that that energy can beexpressed in ceremony, dance,
smok a kopal, giving offeringsto the earth.
That's one important way togive to pay back our debt.
In fact, the word for ceremonyin Nawat is neshlawalisli, which
means debt payment.
But another way for paying backour debt is blood.
Blood, everything that existsis linked.
There's no difference betweenspiritual and physical.

(22:49):
Like the Christian world thinksof like these two things that
are on opposite ends of thespectrum, for us, they're one
thing.
And blood and teolia, which isthis spiritual force, are the
same thing.
Teolia is the water that flowsthrough the earth is the teolia
of the earth.
Sap is the teolia of the trees,and blood is the teolia of

(23:11):
human beings.
And when we in ceremony, whenyou I want to point out also
that I've never personallysacrificed an animal, but I have
been in many animal sacrifices.
And when an indigenous shaman,marakame, you know, like you
know, a person in theirhousehold sacrifices the animal,
they're offering that blood tothe earth to nourish the earth

(23:32):
and allow the earth to give usthe corn.
And it turns into the cyclethat never ends.

Nicte-Ha (23:36):
And is that something that's done?
It sounds like something that'sdone maybe more and more
traditional communities.
And is that something thatpeople do sort of quietly in a
hidden way, or is that somethingthat's like the local priest is
aware this happens and he justdoesn't talk about it, or the
priest is involved and sort ofattends?
Like how syncretic is that kindof practice?

Chicome (23:56):
But but it's not hidden.
No.
It is like if you like if youknow, if you're like a if you go
to like uh San Cristobo de lasCasas, for example, uh in in the
capital of Chiapas, and go touh San Juan Chamula, uh, which
is the uh uh uh Maya Aquiche, Ithink, town that's right next to
um San Cristobo de Toba de lasCasas.

(24:17):
All of it, it's a very touristtons of tourists go there.
It's a very picturesque place.
And you will see chickens beinguh sacrificed in the church.
There's no priest in thischurch.
This is a the church is atemple.

Nicte-Ha (24:28):
Oh, okay.
I had no idea.
That's so interesting.

Chicome (24:31):
You can see it tomorrow, today.
Like if you go, if you youknow, hop on a flight and go
down there, you'll see ithappening as we speak.
It happens every single day.
When uh the tribe that I'm mostfamiliar with personally is the
we are the Wida.
And uh, you know, because I'mdrawn to it since I am myself,
you know, Wida descended a lot.
But at any rate, like um Widaceremony, and it's like animal
sacrifices like cannot be donewithout it.
And like of most tribes thatyou know, mostly they sacrifice

(24:54):
chickens.
The Widach sacrifice bulls, youknow, bulls, um cow, uh bulls,
goats, uh, sheep, and andchickens, less a lot less
chickens, mostly like thefour-legged animals.
And um, it could be on thelevel of the family, where like
you know, um, at one point myfriends, my Wida friends had a
um uh they had really bad ininterfamily dynamic.

(25:17):
There were bad thingshappening.
And they um they spoke to amarakame, which is kind of like
a shaman, and uh there wastrouble in the spirit world, and
it required a bull sacrifice.
And so, like, I joined them forthat ceremony, and like, but
also like several times a year,the whole entire community gets
together and they'll sacrifice athousand animals.
It's like, I mean, there's youknow, like uh most of this this

(25:38):
meat gets eaten, by the way.
Not all of it.

Nicte-Ha (25:40):
Sometimes the meat is that makes that makes a lot of
sense.
Why, why waste all of theprotein?

Chicome (25:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but like um, and and I alsowant to point out at this point
that it's like this is a like ataboo subject, and like Western
people can get really likefreaked out about it.
But like, you know, unlessyou're a vegetarian, like I
don't think that Western peoplehave a right to like be like
weird about this.
It's like if you're willing toeat like meat from the
supermarket or like uh aMcDonald's burger, then you're
just participating in a kind ofa form of suffering and

(26:08):
environmental degradation thatis way worse than anything that
is happening to these animals,or in particular because of the
way these animals lived, whichis usually like raised on the
farm, you know, in thecommunity, you know, like they
had pretty good lives.
The last bit of it might nothave been so good, but if you're
a meat eater, no animal has agood end to their life.
So, like, uh anyway, I justwant to point that out.
But like uh, so like thiselement of ceremony and

(26:31):
indigenous spirituality is veryimportant, you know.
It's like uh like like like atone point I was at a festival in
um Oregon.
Uh it was like a hippie fest, Idon't know, it was like a big
festival.
They invited me to sell my artthere, and they invited a
Widarica person as well, whom Imet there.
And this Widarica guy wasselling tons of work, he was

(26:51):
making a lot of money.
And the the longer it lasted,the more he stressed out he got.
Because he was like, I I am I'mreaching a place of imbalance
with the gods, with it, with thenatural world.
It's like I'm getting too muchand I can't give back because
I'm in this weird place, likevery, very, very, very farther

(27:11):
north than I've ever been.
And I don't know where thereare any sacred places that I'm
can go and like make an offeringand pay back.
And like, and he was gettingreally stressed out.
And at a certain point, therewas like a big fire where there
was like drum circles and thingslike that going on.
And he was like, Well, I don'tknow, all of these like white
people are like, you know, thisis like the focus of their
energy, so I'm gonna like makean offering there.
And he um he burnt somefeathers and like he I he made

(27:33):
he made us like he made anoffering and promised the the
the grandfather fire, you know,that he would like do a real
offering, a blood offering in inMexico when he got back, as as
in gratitude for everything, inthis case money, that the Tateo
had given him, you know.
So, like, so they I mean I justwanted to point that out as
like a you know, like to theextent to which like this is

(27:55):
deeply ingrained in indigenousthought and spirituality, is
like this idea of balance.
And that is not present inConchero dance.
And that's like the place whereit's like I feel like when I
come to Widarica, Wira ceremony,I'm coming to it with a degree
of like homecoming where I feellike this is the language, these

(28:18):
are the ceremonies and thedances that my great-grandmother
danced, that my grandmother wasripped away from, you know, so
like there's an element oflonging and an element of like
of nostalgia for something Inever experienced that's there,
that's very fulfilling to mepersonally.
But there's also an element oflike that I don't belong and I
never will.
Like, you know, I don't, youknow, like I mean, it would take

(28:39):
a lot, a lot, like a whole Iwould have to move there, you
know, like like live there foryears and years, and you know,
it's something that I'm Ihaven't done and I'm not willing
to do, you know.
It's like, but where I amwelcome and I I do belong is
with concerto dancers, withAztec dancers.
It's like that's a place wherepeople who have been
detribalized like me can gettogether and seek this

(28:59):
connection with our ancestors,and we're all doing it from a
place where where we're comingfrom the same place.
And I feel like that we arelearning, in fact, something
that is ancient and traditionalto our people.
It's like the way we move, theway we dance, the way we pray is
an ancient form of being.
It's an indigenous form ofbeing.
But we are not taught the realroot and meaning behind what

(29:21):
we're doing because that wastaken away by Catholicism.
It's like the spirit behind itall became Catholic at some
point.
So for me, it's like when I goto ceremony, I and I'm now a
leader of ceremony.
So when I lead ceremony, Ialways remind everyone or
educate them for the first time.
Maybe they never heard itbefore, why we are there.

(29:43):
You know, like who, what theywhat God we're giving honor to,
what our sacrifice, our dance,our means, you know, and we and
we do offer blood sacrifice, butwe offer our own blood.
Like we pierce our earlobes andfingertips and things like that
with magathorns.
And, you know, it's Not much,it's not that I mean it's a
little painful, not that much,but you know, it is drops of

(30:04):
blood, but we do offer blood,and I and I and I wonder about
that.
I wonder, like, you know, I'vebeen I've been how do you say
that in English?
Castigated?
Oh, okay.

Nicte-Ha (30:14):
Yeah.

Chicome (30:14):
I've been I've been like uh castigated.

Nicte-Ha (30:16):
I speak Spanish, but it's like it's like eighth grade
level Spanish.
Oh, okay.
So, you know, you could enterin Spanish, you're you'll not,
you know.
I mean, I do a little bit morepractice.
I probably need to read somemore books, but yeah.
But yeah, my mom keeps tellingme I need to go.

(30:39):
She's like, you should just goback for like three months.

Chicome (30:42):
Oh, yeah.
No, I mean, yeah, like that.
It'll it'll like it'll all comeback.
It's like you it's all there.
It's just like you know, it'sunderneath somewhere.

Nicte-Ha (30:49):
Well, anyway, you know, that's how it feels.
I was born there and I wasthere for the first two years of
my life, and every time I speakSpanish, it feels like doors
opening in my head and it comeseasier.

Chicome (30:59):
Okay, yeah, it's there, it's like part of our heritage.
It's like it's what you'veheard since childhood.
It's like, you know, yeah.
So um uh so anyway.
Yeah, I've been I've been likecastigated uh by by indigenous
shamans for not like sacrificinganimals.
And they're like, well, what'sthe point of the ceremony if

(31:19):
you're not like actually payingback the debt?
You know, if you're notactually spilling that blood,
you know, and that's that andthat's that place where
everything starts to cometogether and become really weird
for me, where it's like, whatdoes it mean?
You know, what does it mean tolike, you know, it's like we
like as chicanos, as like, youknow, it's very common and
fashionable even to talk aboutdecolonization.
I'm decolonizing myself.

(31:39):
And honestly, I see that somuch on social media where I'm
like, you are not decolonizingyourself.
It's like you're you know, it'slike they say that to anything,
it's like flout some new agenonsense, and there's like, oh,
I'm decolonizing myself.
It's like, it is like a hardpath.
Like, I've been trying to dothis for like my entire life.
I've lived in an indigenouscommunity, then I can tell you
that it's not possible.
It's like, it's like what theway we think and the way an

(32:01):
indigenous person from anindigenous community who never
left, who speaks the languageand everything thinks, are
different.
It's like not the same.
And like, and there are thereare places where like animal
sacrifice.
It's like it's like sometimes Ifeel like I want to.
Do I maybe I don't want to?
Sometimes I'm like, Ishouldn't, I should be
completely vegetarian and neverkill anything ever.
Like, you know, it's like likemy my I have a hard time

(32:22):
wrapping my mind around theindigenous teaching is straight
up actual blood must be spilled.
But it also represents it's ametaphor for something else,
which is that we have to live inbalance with the earth.
And the only way to live, youknow, like the way to live in
balance is ceremony and allthat.
But for like for me, it's alsolike Western culture is a

(32:46):
culture about imbalance.
It's a culture about likehumans are at the top and the
earth is a thing, animals arebarely more than things, and we
can take and take and take andexploit and exploit and exploit,
and we're the masters of theuniverse, and everything's gonna
be fine.
And that is clearly not true.
We're living in the era ofglobal warming.
It's like the indigenous wisdomis undeniably, objectively

(33:06):
true.
It's like we are the youngerbrothers of creation, we are in
a web of interconnectedness withthe natural world.
It's like, and whether you youchoose like me to believe that
the earth is a woman who's aliving being who loves me and
cares for me, and like, or ifyou choose to think that the
earth is like a an organ, youknow, who is beating and like

(33:30):
breathes at forests, and we arepart of that, you know, like web
of being, which I think ismaybe like an atheistic way that
you could imagine the exactsame thing, it's true.
And indigenous and westernculture is destroying the entire
planet.
And so for me, it's like comingto terms with what all of this

(33:50):
means?
Like, what does blood sacrificemean?
What does it mean to me?
What does it mean to me in mycommunity?
What does it mean to me as ateacher within like a conchero
dance tradition?
Like, what do I want to teachthe people who are in my
Calpuli, in my in my community,you know?
And like, and how do I want to,and how do we want to
incorporate this into who weare?

(34:11):
Because I feel like if thereare millions and millions of us,
it's like there are millions ofChicanos, millions of Mexicans,
it's like if we were all toembrace these elements, this
this most important element ofour indigenous heritage, that
can only be good for the planet,you know.
But on the other side ofthings, it's like, you know, so
like I'm going on about like theevils of Western culture, and
there's a lot, you know, likecapitalism and our relationship

(34:33):
of imbalance to natural.
Those are the two, like for me,unquestionable questionably.
Like, I don't think that theword evil is like too extreme to
describe what those are, youknow, for me.
But on the other hand, gave,you know, we are the source of
like women's rights, gay rights,like, you know, like there's
the you know, the enlightenment,like, you know, there is a lot

(34:55):
of of there are a lot of thingsthat are really positive that
came out of the West, you know,and so it's like, you know, like
a lot of indigenous communitiesare pretty patriarchal.
You know, there's a lot of likeuh there's a lot of ideas that
are pretty homophobic.
And there's an argument to bemade that maybe a lot of that
patriarchality, I don't know,and and homophobia is um an uh

(35:19):
European construct, somethingthat came from the West.
But what I do not want to do isimagine that our ancestors were
somehow perfect.
It's like there was slavery,and that is unquestionable.
There were, I mean, there was alot, you know, a lot of like
the Mexica were undeniablypatriarchal, you know, at the
time of the conquest.
Like maybe there was anotherindigenous ancestor that was
like matriarchal and like, youknow, really great or whatever,

(35:41):
but like that was not the casewhen the Europeans came, you
know.
So it's like there are elementsthat are like undeniably awful
that our ancestors did.
And I think that it's fine toacknowledge that.
It's like because a lot ofpeople, a lot of like the
decolonized decolonizing likememes online are you know, it's
like they want to dehumanize ourancestors, you know, in the

(36:03):
opposite way that Europeans did.
It's like, oh no, our ancestorswere perfect.
They like lived in balance withthe universe and like you know,
danced with moonbeams orwhatever.
I don't know.

Nicte-Ha (36:11):
It's like this is it's very similar to kind of what
people do to Native Americancommunities here in North
America, right?
People don't realize it's thesame sort of romanticization of
indigenous history.
And just because the culturewas aware of and required
balance doesn't mean thateverything that they did is

(36:32):
something that we would findmorally morally correct, right?
Because our morality is deeplyinfluenced by Greek and Roman
and like Christian theologiesaround some other aspects that
have been very transformativeand people have taken them and
and used them to support women'srights and gay rights and

(36:54):
things like that, and humanrights, right?
So a lot of human rights havecome out of the the movements
have come out of very liberalChristian traditions, right?
So it is difficult to find thatbalance.
And I understand what you'rewhat you're saying there.
I think I think it's it'simportant that if we're in the
business of decolonizing ourthought or finding ourselves
spiritually, that we're not inthe process of creating a

(37:17):
fantasy of the past.

Chicome (37:19):
Yeah.

Nicte-Ha (37:19):
Right.
And and also recognizing wecan't go back, we can't go
backwards completely.
Much of it is lost, and we haveto look forward and figure out
how to bring the elements of thetradition we like forward into
the future for our communities.
At least that's how I interpretwhat you're saying.
Is that accurate?

Chicome (37:39):
Yeah, no, no, that's that's what exactly how I feel.
It's like I think that like umthere's a tendency to
romanticize our our history, andlike uh, and that's you know,
it's like and I think and I feellike the danger in that is that
is that you end up live puttingour ancestors up to a uh on a
pedestal so high that we'llnever reach it.
It's like you know, the idealsof our ancestors are beautiful,
not always, but m a lot of them,most of them, you know.

(38:01):
But like the lived reality isnever up to one's ideals, you
know, and so it's like uh Ithink that it's important to
acknowledge that.
And I also think that like uh Iwas gonna say something and I I
got lost, but but it but at anyrate, like uh it's okay.

Nicte-Ha (38:16):
If it comes back, you can always say, Oh, I remember
that thing.
But I I was actually wondering,so you are I'm 45, so we're
kind of close in age here.
And when I was growing up in Igrew up in California, I grew up
in Gilroy up by San Jose.
And I remember Aztec dance,Aztec dance in quotation marks

(38:36):
starting in the mid early 90s,kind of as part of like a an
alternative but to balefolklóri, kind of like a
cultural revival.
Let's look at the way thatpeople did in the past, and it
wasn't really like as far as Iunderstood it at that point, it
wasn't really presented as aspiritual path for people to
actually be engaging inceremony.

(38:58):
It was a little bit more likeyou have bale folklórico, which
is the more traditional dance,then you have the Aztec dance,
which is like what happened,what we did before the Spanish.

Chicome (39:08):
Yeah.

Nicte-Ha (39:08):
And then I feel like over the years I watched it
evolve into a spiritualmovement.
And so, how did you first getinvolved with the Conchero
dancing?
And also, yes, so I'm gonnajust how did you first get
involved with the Concherodancing?
How old were you?
And what was it about it thatreally struck you?
Like, where did you see it?
Was it in California or was itafter you'd moved back to

(39:31):
Mexico?

Chicome (39:32):
It was in California.
So when I was in my teens, likethat was like the whitest time
in my life.
Like uh I went to college,everybody was white.
Like I, you know, I graduated,I got a white boyfriend, like
all of his friends, he was anarchitect, all of his friends
were white, and somehow likethey're like, let's test this
out.

Nicte-Ha (39:48):
What's this like?

Chicome (39:49):
I didn't like do it on purpose, it just kind of like
happened, and like one day Iwoke up and I'm like, I have no
Latino friends, like I onlyspeak in Spanish to my mother,
like you know, and so like and Iwas like, and I was just
feeling like I need to likere-Latinize my life, like what's
going on here?
And uh there was a group of umof Aztec dancers like at the
Michigan Cultural Center, likefour blocks from my house, and I

(40:10):
I thought it was uh ballet forpolitico.
I really did.
Like, I I mean you know, it interms of what you just said.
Um, so I was like, oh, this isgreat.
It's like I'm gonna wear anawesome outfit, like big
feathers, good exercise becausethat looks hard, and uh, and I'm
gonna make Latino friends.
So I was like, this iseverything I want.
So like so I went to just startdancing with them.
It was a little unpleasant, Ihave to say.

(40:33):
Well, it's because I am very,very white presenting.
I have blue eyes, you know,like I look like my dad 100%.
And you know, so they didn'treally get me.
There was a little bit, youknow, like they were they're
they're they were a little meanto me, I think, because they I
think they thought I was like awhite guy that just showed up to
dance with them, and I'm like,no, soy mexicano, quiero bailar
con ustedes.
Like they didn't they reallydidn't like you know see me.

(40:54):
But like uh, but in terms but Ipersevered, I didn't care, I
kept on going anyway.
And and it took me a while torealize that they were
definitely not by let fugico.
Like they were already like um,I mean, they were ceremony.
Like we would do like we wouldgo do ceremony, which I thought
was gonna be a show, that wewould be in the middle of the
forest.
I'm like, huh, this is youknow, like I did not understand,

(41:15):
you know, and they didn'texplain.
We just like did.
Like there was no talking.
It was just like, not evenamong, you know, like they
talked like friends, but therewas no teaching.
It was just like the teachingwas like this is how you dance,
you know, like this is how youknow.
So like uh I didn't, I did ittook me a while to understand,
but like that's like where kindof this path began.
But as but it's to that differthat to Conchero being like

(41:36):
dance being uh like a folkloredance as opposed to being like
um ceremony.
It's like uh I don't know likein the US how that goes because
like I moved to I moved toMexico and uh and I started
doing it here, and here it wasit's like this is like where
conchero dance is from likeCaretaro and from areas that are

(41:58):
in this area, it's been inMexico City for a long time, and
um and it's definitelyceremony.
It's like we here, and it's alot easier to maintain that
because it's like in in the US,if you're Chicano or a Mexican
immigrant, you're alreadydivorced, even if you're in a
Mexican community, it's likeyou're not near your cemetery,
you're not near the church thatwas your church where the saint
was that your family prayed tofor generations, you're not tied

(42:21):
to your particular culture.
It's like, you know, Mexicans,we're not obviously not
monolithic.
It's like you know, we end upin neighborhoods and it's like
you know, from all over theplace with all kinds of
different Mexican orMesoamerican traditions, and uh
and everything gets mixed up.
Whereas in Mexico, you're rightthere, you know.
It's like so it's like uh sowith here when we go to a

(42:44):
ceremony, it's like we're goingto the shrine of the Virgin of
Guadalupe herself.
You know, there's likeperegrinaciones like uh I forget
how to say that too.
It's like um walk when you'rewalking ceremoniously to um uh
like the Señora de Chalma at hisshrine, you know.
So like you know, we do all ofthese certain things here and in
part of Mexican cult culture isthat um is like the the fiesta

(43:06):
patronal, which is like whereyou know, like once a year the
the saint of the main church ofyour neighborhood or your town
is when he's like he getscelebrated.
And so there's like a bigparty, there's like a street
fair, there's castillo, likehuge fireworks, and uh and the
Aztec dancers come out, youknow, and so like the the the
the the saint is carried on theprocession, on the ceremonial

(43:28):
procession, and the thedancantes go in front dancing,
and so like here it's balefoclorico and it's ceremony at
the same time.
It's like it's they're clearlylinked.
And I think in the US, it'slike the the dancers went there,
I'm theorizing.
The the dancers went there, butthen they're like divorced from
the fiesta patronal becausethat's not happening in the US.

(43:49):
They're divorced from like allof those like specific things,
those specific pilgrimage sites,those specific ways of engaging
with spirituality.
And this is from like a mestizostandpoint, like that not like
that's not there anymore.
So then it turns into like whatyou dance at the Cinco de Mayo
parade or before, you know, likeyou dance in like contexts that
are divorced of spirituality,but in Mexico, it's like it's
intimately linked to givinghonor to if you're if you're a

(44:13):
very traditional conchero to theCatholic saints, and if you're
more like an astric dancer to tothe indigenous gods, and you
might be doing the exact samedance in the exact same place,
but you're you're doing it witha oh, and I wanted to point this
out from earlier too.
Um, because you had mentionedsomething about the pre-Hispanic
gods or whatever, like that.
Like they're not justpre-Hispanic gods.
So, like that's one of thethings that I didn't realize.

(44:33):
Like, I thought was something Ithought when I started moving
in indigenous communities andliving with indigenous people
was that you know, like theScalipoca and the Donancine and
all of these gods were likepre-Hispanic, and it's like
we're putting them back, andit's like, you know, kind of
like a Greek person deciding toworship like Hera or Zeus or
something again, something likethat.
It's not like that at all.

Nicte-Ha (44:53):
They have that Hellenic revivalism.

Chicome (44:55):
I know, and like Yeah, it's amazing.
It is amazing, and but it but Ifeel like it's completely
different from that, in thesense that like Conchero
tradition is a truly, trulysyncretic tradition.
It's like half indigenous, halfCatholic, and I'll say there's
a third of New Age stuff thrownon top.
You know, it is deeply, deeplysyncretic.

(45:17):
But indigenous people who speaklanguage speak their name their
indigenous languages, who livein their communities and all of
that, they look syncretic, butthey're not, in my mind,
syncretic.
So it's like you could, youmight go like so, for example,
you might go to Puebla, to aNahua community and walk into a
person's house and see theVirgin of Guadalupe and Jesus

(45:38):
and like St.
Thomas on their altar, andyou're gonna say, like, oh,
they're like syncretic, like,you know, they're in they're
where their data clothing isbecoming, you know, but they're
syncretic.
But if you ask them to tell youa story about that Mary, that
Jesus, and that St.
Thomas, the story they're gonnatell you has nothing to do with
Catholicism.
It's like, you know, there'sstories from all over
Mesoamerica that are told todayby indigenous people, you know,

(46:00):
where it's like, oh, you know,like when the when the the
soldiers speared Jesus on theside, corn fell out of the
wound, you know, or the Virginof Guadalupe lives in a cave on
the mountain and she gave birthto the son, you know.
And so, like, when the Spanishcame, it's like you couldn't
have like indigenous images andimage making, dead, dead, dead,
dead.
You can't have an image ofGualique, the lady with a the

(46:24):
skirt of serpents on your altar,you know, like the priest is
gonna come in and like breakthat and throw you in jail or
murder you.
Who knows what terrible thingsare gonna happen?
You can't do that.
But you can put the Virgin ofGuadalupe in your altar and keep
on telling the exact samestory, like and he and continue
to do ceremony in a very similarway.
But like the image has beenswitched out because that's what

(46:46):
you can do, you know.
So, like the indigenous peopletoday continue to tell stories
about the god of corn, about thegoddess of the earth, about the
rains being the mountains beinghollowed.
Thlaluk is still believed in.
No, he doesn't call Thlalucanymore, but like indigenous
peoples will still talk aboutthe Lord of Thunder who lives
inside the mountain and who'sstill Tlaluk, by the way, is a

(47:07):
god of rain for those of you whodon't know.
So they will talk about likethe mountain being hollow.
So it's like these thesetraditions never went away.
They're like all overMesoamerica.
And uh, and on top of that,like one of the reasons that
like like like uh Cochero danceand Aztic dance as a Socratic
tradition, I'm sorry, as anintertribal tradition works, is

(47:28):
because as you said earlier,like there are tribes throughout
Mesoamerica, and Mesoamericaranges from like Nicaragua,
Costa Rica, even all the way upto northern Mexico.
And some people include likethe US Southwest in in
Mesoamerica.
It's like, and what Mesoamericais, is all of these tribes,
like hundreds of tribes,speaking 160 languages or

(47:49):
something.
But all of them, all of thembelieve that in the in the in
the sacredness of the balancebetween humanity and the natural
world, all of them believe thatthe mountains are hollow and
that the lords of rain liveinside.
Sometimes the lord of rain is awoman, sometimes she's a it's a
man, but the structure is thesame.
Like there's stories that aretold everywhere about sun gods

(48:10):
dying in a fire and re beingreborn as the sun.
You know, like Maya told thatstory, we showed people tell
that story in Guatemala and inyou know, northwest Mexico, you
know.
So it's like the underlyingspiritual truth of Native
America, of an indigenousMexico, is the same everywhere.
And that's why I feel like eventhough I am of Ouida descent

(48:33):
and have no Nahua ancestrywhatsoever that I know of, like
uh this Nahua-based tradition,which is concerto tradition, has
become like this intertribaltradition.
And it works for all of usbecause it's like I may not be
praying to my the gods, thespecific gods that my
grandmother prayed to, but likemy great-grandmother prayed to,
but like uh the essence is thesame.

(48:54):
It's like, you know, she prayedto the god of fire, grandfather
of fire, you know, and like asas a concerto dancer, it's like,
well, we have what with theLord of Fire, you know, it's
like it's the same.
So, like, uh, but I just wantedto point that out.

Nicte-Ha (49:06):
Thank you.
This is I am loving this, bythe way.
This is fantastic.

Chicome (49:10):
Thank you.

Nicte-Ha (49:11):
You know, you've mentioned a couple of times you
being a white presentingChicano, and I very much that
part of the reason why I startedthis podcast was because of
that experience of feeling inbetween, right?
Feeling that in-betweenness.
And in a lot of ways, you sortof embodying that in-betweenness
in a couple of differentaspects of your professional and

(49:32):
your spiritual life, in thatyou're a gay man, you're a
Chicano who's white presenting,who's trying to balance all of
these different sides of hislineage and his spiritual
traditions.
And so I'm wondering how thatthe your what I call the social

(49:53):
identity, right?
The way people perceive you,you know, growing up, was it
difficult to feel a part of theChicano community in Los
Angeles?
And, you know, that feelingthat that feeling of being an
outsider in Mexico City, is itdiverse enough that you you feel
more of a sense of belonging inMexico City?
Is that why you live there?

(50:13):
How do you navigate thatfeeling of being kind of on the
border in between communities?

Chicome (50:20):
That's hard.
Uh as a little kid, like I wasraised by my mother and not my
father.
I am closer to my Mexicanmother.
My mom, my mother's not whitepresenting, she's a woman of
color.
And um, you know, so like Imean, I remember as a kid,
people everybody thought my momwas my nanny.
They would think she was thecleaning lady, like, you know,
like there was a lot of likeracist assumptions because I

(50:42):
look nothing like my.
I mean, I did I think I do kindof, but not really.
I don't look anything like her.
I look white, white, white,white.
And you know, so that wasweird.
But I didn't think of myself asI didn't think of my appearance
as being weird until I was inhigh school.
Like as a little kid, you know,like I was surrounded by like
everybody was I was the whitestperson by far.

(51:02):
Everybody else was like werepeople of color, and they were
like my grandma or whatever.
Like I didn't like my friends,I didn't think about it.
But in high school, like thefirst, the very first time I
ever really like dawned on methat there was something weird
about about me, was like, I wasgonna, I like there was a Mitcha
was gonna was gonna have theywere like there was like a Mitch
uh meeting at the localcommunity college, and they were
gonna give out they were givingout um like scholarships.

(51:25):
And I was like, I want ascholarship, like my family
doesn't have the money, like Ineed a scholarship to go to
college.
So I went and there was likethis talk in the in the
auditorium, and it was all likehigh school students and like
you know, like guys in their 20sor 30s or something.
I don't know, like Mecha guys.
And they were like, Oh, we'relike the the some of the raza de
bronze, we're like the youknow, we're the bronze race, and
we're like, you know, brownpride and all of this.

(51:45):
And like, and everybody aroundme started looking at me, and
like, you know, and and I just Iremember just starting to, I
was suddenly like, that was thefirst time I ever thought of my
appearance as being weird.
And I started going like, oh mygod, I started like kind of
like like like uh kind ofsliding down in my chair.
I like I like I felt like Idon't belong here, I don't
belong here, and like it, youknow, and I absolutely did

(52:07):
belong there, you know.
It was like, you know, but thelanguage was it's alienating to
somebody who looks like me.
And I don't want to say thatthere's anything wrong with that
language, you know, but like,but in particular, like at that
point in my life, that was thefirst time I'd ever heard that
particular language being used,and and it definitely made me
feel very weird, you know, likeand it took me a long time to
even come up with a way to howto describe myself where I'm
like, because for a long time Ithought of myself as white, but

(52:30):
then I'd be like, well, I'm I amwhite, but I'm not, I don't
know.
Like, you know, it took itwasn't until like maybe like 10
years ago that I was like, oh, Ithink I'm white presenting
rather than actually beingwhite.
Because it's like you know,whiteness is like you know,
wrapped up with like culture andlike the way you're raised.
Like I grew up, I learnedEnglish when I was five.
Like I, you know, did not growup in a white culture.

(52:50):
And furthermore, like I, youknow, like my mom is my my my
Mexican family are not white.
They're like they're people ofcolor, they're Native American.
So it's like, you know, likethe my upbringing is like
definitely not white, but I lookwhite.
So like I have white privilege,that's undeniable.
It's like I feel like there'sall kinds of things that have
happened to me in my life thatare probably that are you know,
things that I probably don'teven know that it happened, that

(53:12):
are, you know, things thathappen to white people that are
good, you know, like so like soyou know, so I feel like I
navigate the world in a reallyweird way.
And I feel like that has likeled to me now to being, I don't
know, it's like when I am inperson with Latino people, I
forget about my appearance.
You know, like I I'm justliving my life, and my entire

(53:34):
life is lived with Latinopeople.
It's like, you know, like as aas a dancer, I live in Mexico,
I'm married to a Salvadoran manwho's a not white, he's a person
of color, you know, my mother,my family, everything, you know,
I spend very little time withwhite people, very little.
And um and for the most part,they're you know, like the
people around me accept me, youknow, it's like everything is
fine.
Every now and then I'm remindedwhere because people will be

(53:56):
like, what are you doing?
Or like, I you know, I thoughtyou were like a like a white
dude, you know, like you know,I'll be like, oh no, like I
thought you were a journalist.
Yeah, things like that, youknow, like you know, like
they'll you know, they'll or youknow, or I'll give like funny
comments, you know, like likeuh, you know, a lot of people
will be like I would assume theyknow my story.
I don't know why, you know, andthen they'll and they'll be

(54:16):
like, oh, it's so interestingwhen for when foreigners like
are so in in love with ourculture that they like you know
even become like teachers, andI'll be like, oh, I you don't,
you know, like maybe I shouldtell you my background, you
know, like uh you know, I getthat a lot.
In person, I very rarely haveproblems.
You know, online.
Oh my god, it's such a fuckingnightmare.

(54:38):
Like I get attacked so much.
It's like every time my face isis visible, like, you know,
like I'm I don't hide who I am.
I don't like, you know, butlike when it, you know, like
when I when I shoot a real, I'mkind of like an influencer.
I have a lot of followers,like, you know, like I I'm very
committed to teaching and mywork is kind of popular.
So like, you know, I have a youknow, I get seen a lot and and

(55:01):
I in no way hide my appearance,you know.
It's but like um I'm also notlike particularly interested in
just being in front of a cameraall the time.
So like if I appear on cameralike once a month or something,
people get surprised again, andI have to explain again, and
people like tell me all kinds ofawful stuff about like white
dude, I can't believe whitepeople appropriating our
culture, and you know, or andsome people like it doesn't

(55:22):
matter what you say, it doesn'tmatter how you explain your
story, it doesn't matter, itdoesn't matter.
They're just so upset about thefact that I exist at all that
they just can't accept me, youknow.
So it's like, you know, andthose people I just you know I
block people like crazy onsocial media.
I've come to this place where Iused to really hurt my
feelings, and I would get beupset about things for weeks,

(55:42):
and you know, and now I'm justlike uh and I just you know I've
developed a much thicker skinabout this.
And it's also that it's helpedme to be like a friend of mine
actually was like one time I wasjust really upset because this
uh influencer attacked me forbeing white, and you know, he
had like hundreds of thousandsof followers, and I was getting
attacked every day by tons ofpeople, and like he was, you

(56:02):
know, and it just felt sodisingenuous.
It's just like, you know, theydon't care about my story, they
don't care, you know, andanyway, like uh and I was
feeling really down.
And I told my, you know, I wastelling my friend about this,
and she was like, you know, myfriend who's pure pecha,
cochetro dancer, you know, andshe was like, Does your family
judge you for looking like youlook?
And I'm like, no.

(56:23):
And she's like, Does yourkatpuli?
And I'm like, no, do yourfriends?
And I'm like, no.
And she's like, Oh, do thepeople you care about?
And I'm like, no.
And she's like, then why doesit matter?
It's like you're you know, likethose people online are not
your community.
Like your community are thepeople that you're actually
doing ceremony with, the peoplethat you know, that you're you
know, your mother, you know,like though they they are your

(56:44):
your husband, they are yourcommunity, and all of these
other people are mistaken, andyou know that, so why does it
matter?
And like, you know, and I don'tknow why that didn't occur to
me before, you know, because itwasn't that long ago, that was
maybe like four years ago, anduh and you know, and then I was
just like, Yeah, you're right.
And ever since then, I've justit's it really helped me to like
kind of it's been a it's beendifficult.
Like this whole like being aninfluencer, like even the word

(57:05):
is embarrassing to me, and likeuh and like the whole like
everything that it involves isjust like uh I just want to be
an artist.
But it's like it's it'simportant for like as a job, you
know.
It's like I have a lot offollowers, I'll post artwork,
they buy my artwork.
It's like, you know, I if Idon't, if I'm not selling
artwork, I'm not making I'm notI you know, like I have to make
money to be an artist, and like,and it's the way I've found to

(57:25):
make a living, but man, I it isnot a pleasant way to live.

Nicte-Ha (57:30):
Do you so one of the one of the things I've noticed,
I think a lot of people who livehere in the United States don't
understand that there is asignificant amount of there's
its own stratification inMexico.
There's a lot of colorism inMexico and a lot of it's tied to
your economic class and goesback to the very complicated
system that the Spanish had forcategorizing people based on who

(57:56):
their parents were and all ofthat.
And so do you get most I mean,the US is very clear because of
history, one drop makes you notwhite.
Right.
If you have any heritage thatand if as long as you can pass,
if you if you can passcompletely and you hide that
little bit in your history,America's like you're white.

(58:18):
If you can't pass completelyand you can't hide that bit of
your heritage and you don't wantto like leave your family
behind, then you're not white.
So it gets, I think that kindof racialized thinking gets very
affects people's perception inthe United States.
And I know it's a littledifferent in Mexico, but I know
there's still that colorismthat's tied to class.

(58:39):
And so do you find that thepeople who get the most upset
about it are like Chicanos herein the United States versus
mexicanos, or do you feel likeyou get that from both both
areas because of the thecolorism and the racism that's
developed in both places?

Chicome (58:57):
I get it.
It's worse from Chicanos, Ihave to say.
It's like I get way moreattacked, but I get attacked by
Mexicans too.
But like, but I you know, likeI that that was another part to
your question that I didn'tanswer, and that's like Mexico
is a very class-based place, andthat classism is very much
based on skin color, you know.
So it's like it's I mean, theway we look at race is different

(59:18):
in Mexico than in the US, andbeing from both places, I have
to say is can be confusing forme to navigate.
But like um, you know, likeupper class people are 95% of
the time gonna look very white,like very, very, very white
presenting, and uh lower classpeople are gonna be darker, you
know.
So it's like the moreindigenous you are, the closer
you are to your indigenousroots, the more likely it is

(59:38):
that you're gonna be poor.
You know, so like I feel likemy appearance puts me at odds
with who I am because it's likeI am the son, I'm the grandson
of the son and grandson ofindigenous people, I'm the son
of an undocumented immigrant, Igrew up poor, you know.
Like I I did not grow up withmoney, and um, and I I identify
like I feel like when I when Seewhite people in Mexico, like

(01:00:01):
you know, I'm I I don't I haveno I have zero interest in
talking to them.
It's like oh they're wheneverbut I I can recognize a Chicano
accent in Spanish, you know,there's this like little hint of
gringo in there, and so when Ilook when I hear a Chicano, I'm
always like it's a Chicano, Iwant to like be their friend.
It's like I get this like Ifeel like like my paisanos are
not other Mexicans.

Nicte-Ha (01:00:21):
You're gonna piss so many people off.

Chicome (01:00:26):
You can.
Sorry, I'm just teasing you,I'm teasing you.
I mean, not maybe everybody,but a lot, a lot.

Nicte-Ha (01:00:31):
I know what you mean.

Chicome (01:00:32):
Yeah, and like, you know, when you're in the US and
you're Chicano or whatever,you're like, oh, I'm Mexican,
I'm Mexican.
And there's nothing like goingto Mexico to be like, I am not
Mexican.
It's like you are like reallygringo, unfortunately.
And it's like uh, you know, andso like now that I'm in Mexico,
it's like I am very, very intune with my like Chicano
brothers and sisters, and I feellike they are my people.

(01:00:53):
It's like they're like Chicanosare the ones that I feel like
we, you know, we grew up, notall of us, obviously, but we
have a common backstory of likegrowing up disadvantaged,
growing up facing racism.
You know, maybe I didn'tpersonally, but I saw it with my
mother, who everybody thoughtwas my nanny.
You know, it's like we grew upwith a similar story, is what I
want to say.
And like, and that's like uhyou know something that I feel

(01:01:13):
really drawn to.
And like, and that story is oneof disadvantage in general.
And in Mexico, it's like I looklike a whitesicon, you know,
like I look like I like I likeone of, but I culturally I'm
not, you know, so it's like, andthis comes back to being as
like a social media person whereit's like I have never in my
life been able to bring myselfto go to galleries and push

(01:01:35):
myself as a traditional artistin that way.
It's like when I was in the USbefore I moved to Mexico, there
were very white spaces, and likeI just didn't feel comfortable.
Like I felt like I wasn't, Iwould be the only Latino in the
room.
And even though none of thepeople there knew I was a Latino
unless I told them, I knew itand I felt different.
I felt like I'm not like them.

(01:01:55):
You know, so like there was apart of me that felt like
alienated by the art world, eventhough I don't remember anybody
ever saying anything racist oranything, but like the art, the
other artists were white, thegallerists were white, the
museum curators are white,everybody was white, you know,
and like uh and and when I didhave shows and things like that,
I would sometimes wonder iflike was I a way to make white

(01:02:16):
curators and gallerists andmuseum people feel comfortable
because they could look at meand see a person that looks like
them, and yet they're beinglike liberal, like a good
liberal who's giving anopportunity to like a minority.
You know, I would wonder thingslike that, you know, like I
didn't feel comfortable.
And in Mexico, I don't feelcomfortable either because it's
like, yet again, I look likethem, and when I go to a gallery
here, but it's so classist, andit's the same thing.

(01:02:39):
It's the same thing.
It's like they're white,everybody's white.
It's like, you know, it's likethis, and I I just I didn't grow
up with that privilege that theother people around me in
Mexico it's even more strongthat way.
I feel like it's harder to jumpclasses in Mexico than it is in
the US.
And it's as hard in the US, butlike I feel like this like
these class barriers are reallystrong, and I just feel like so

(01:03:02):
alienated from the other peoplewho are usually pretty nice, you
know.
Like, I don't want to denigrateanybody, but I just feel like I
don't belong.
You know, so like I have neverbeen able to bring myself to
pursue the only time in my lifethat I have felt comfortable in
the art world was in LA a coupleof years ago.
I had a residency in LA thatlasted all summer.
And because at the now, like Idon't know right now with Trump

(01:03:25):
and everything, but at leastuntil pretty recently, it's like
the art world has been reallyopen to people of color and
minorities.
And uh I met a bunch of artistswho are really great, and
curators and gallerists and allkinds of people working in the
art world who are Latino.
And uh everybody was verysupportive of each other, and
that was the one and only timein my life is that summer in LA,
where like going to galleryopenings, which is like my job,

(01:03:45):
I'm an artist, you know, waslike going to gallery openings
and things like that wassomething I actually wanted to
do.
Where it's like I was meetinglike successful artists,
talented artists, like amazingartists who were like showing in
galleries and like and all theLatino artists would go to each
other's openings, and it wasgreat.
Unfortunately, there's nothinglike that here, you know.
Like if there was like a likeuh I feel like the I don't know

(01:04:08):
what that would look like, likeindigenous artists who are like
finding a space in the upperclass gallery world or
something, but like you know, Ibeing in my home again, I don't
feel drawn to that world.
And social media, which I kindof hate, also gives me the
ability to make a living amongmy own community.
Like I don't have to sellmyself to like white people and

(01:04:33):
privileged people, you know,like I can I can, you know, and
which is great, but it also hasits limitations.
It's like I really like makinglike big, ambitious paintings
that are like that take memonths and months and months to
paint, and there's no way for meto sell a painting like that
for less than 15,000, 20,000,you know, dollars or more.
I just can't, you know, and myand I I'm not gonna sell that

(01:04:55):
painting on Instagram, you know.
So it's like the gallery worldis great if you can be
successful in it in terms ofallowing an artist to make
ambitious work.
Instagram, like it wants you tomake fast, quick, you know,
like I have to make new contentevery single day.
So it's like it forces me to beconstantly like frenetic and

(01:05:16):
making all these little thingsthat I don't really want to
make.
I still make my big ambitiouspaintings, but I'm not able to
concentrate on them the way Iwould like because I have to do
all this little stuff becauseit's like social media is a job.
Oh my god, it's like so muchwork.
But it's it's given me thefreedom that I have for a very
long time, you know.
It it gets worse.
It gets on demanding more.

Nicte-Ha (01:05:36):
Well, I mean, there's such a tension, right?
So I mean, uh I was speaking toI'm still in the process of
editing this interview, but Iwas speaking with uh Lan, who
runs the on well, he ran the AnaWalk Discord on Reddit.
Or sorry, Ana Walk community onReddit and now runs the uh runs

(01:05:58):
the kind of Mechica revivalDiscord server.
So Lan Lan is one of the peoplewho sort of founded that server
and is in the process ofengaging with and engaging with
younger people on in kind of themechanism that they're
comfortable with, which isdigital online Mexica ritual,

(01:06:21):
right?
Trying to teach people thecorrect histories, the stories
and the connections that theycan find.
In the new generation, it'sdigital, right?
It's through social media, it'sin it's on Reddit, it's through
the Discord server.
And then some of those peoplemight be detribalized and not
have access to a kalpoolie,right?
Or they might live in areaswhere that's not welcome.

(01:06:43):
Some people aren't even this isa big topic of discussion.
Some people are yeah, somepeople are even like European.
So you get these like veryrandom people online who are
drawn to that work, but as yousaid, it gives you flexibility
and it it gives you a reach andan audience that it might have
been more difficult or expensiveor had more barriers if you

(01:07:04):
hadn't otherwise pursued it.
So I can understand thecreative tension and uh that
that balance requires.
Do you have somebody thatmanages your social media for
you full time?

Chicome (01:07:17):
No, I do it all myself.

Nicte-Ha (01:07:19):
Oh my god.

Chicome (01:07:20):
I can't I can't.
It's like I would like to, butlike my it's like if I was just
like making it's like I tellreally elaborate stories that I
wouldn't like my social mediamanager would have to like know
how to handle social media andalso be like either Native
American or an anthropologistwho like went to university.
You know, it's like I requiresomebody so specific that like

(01:07:43):
I, you know, so I I get up atlike you know six every single
morning, and from six to ninethirty I do social media, and
then I and then like I get likea hundred messages a day, and
it's like just answering thosemessages is like an endless,
it's a never-ending it's likethere is a you know, so it's
just like you know, I don'tknow, I don't know.

(01:08:04):
It's like it didn't used to belike that.
It's like it used to I could Imake a painting, I could I could
I write text about my paintingsanyway.
And so it used to be that Icould just like make my
painting, put out my painting,put us on details, write a text,
and I'm done.
And it was successful.
I got a lot of followers, butlike they changed the algorithm
like a year and a half ago, andnow you have to make reels and
you have to do all of thisstuff.
And it's like if you're notdoing what they want you to do,

(01:08:26):
they tell you, they send you amessage and saying, like, oh,
you're you know, you're youknow, and it's just it's it's it
turned from like an hour a dayto like three, four hours a day.
It's like added an extrapart-time job to my life, and
it's been really horrible.
But you know, there's a part ofme that doesn't mind.
I I like educating.

(01:08:46):
It's like I like once the realexists, I like it.
But I wish I could, I, youknow, I could do that once a
week instead of every singleday.

Nicte-Ha (01:08:55):
Right, right, right.

Chicome (01:08:57):
That vacations, like birthday, like it doesn't
matter.
It's like there's no likerelaxing, you know, like it's
like every single day.
And and you know, and thepeople are crazy and they're
always criticizing me, and like,I don't know.
It's like it really is like it,it's a it's a it's like harsh,
it's really harsh.
I don't recommend it toanybody, but like, you know, I

(01:09:18):
don't know.
I mean, I I if it wasn't forthe fact that I was already, you
know, like I've been being onsocial media since it was the
beginning, you know, so it'slike I grew I've been growing
with it, and I you know, it'slike it's I I need to figure out
alternative sources of incomethough.

Nicte-Ha (01:09:32):
I think the push on social media, it seems like, is
to just live your whole lifeonline, which is kind of the
opposite of living a life thatthat honors you as a person,
right?
It's like it's almost youyou're not on the the Truman
show.

Chicome (01:09:51):
Yeah, right.

Nicte-Ha (01:09:52):
And it makes makes it very much, it must it must make
it feel like you're on theTruman show.
And does it change yourperception of like does it do
you find that it creeps intokind of ceremony or things where
you start thinking, I shouldmake a reel out of this or I
should record this?
And then that separates youfrom the moment.
Do you find that happening toyou the more that it kind of

(01:10:13):
changes in this way?

Chicome (01:10:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
But like I don't it does, Idon't feel like Truman Show wise
because I don't share anythingpersonal.
Like I don't put, you know,like you know, like I don't
write about my husband, I don'twrite about like personal
troubles, or you know, I don'twrite about my friends.
You know, like I'm not like,oh, look at me at you know on
vacation.
I don't do that.
You know, like I'm like I havea goal.

(01:10:35):
My goal is to teach and like mypaintings, and that's it.
That's all I post about.
Um, and but I do feel like itlike on that level it does
affect.
It's like, you know, like Iwant to have these, you know,
like I record uh there arethings that I can't record
because it's like it'sparticular moments in ceremony
or particular there's nothingthat I have been been told I
can't record within thetradition that I belong to.

(01:10:56):
Like everything is like camerasare allowed, but there are
moments that are just toointimate.
It's like it doesn't feelright, or like to get the camera
in there would be like there'smoments that it just can't be
done.
But like uh I do I'm I am I amI record everything and I do
think that you know sometimeswhere it's like you know,
there's a part of me where it'slike, oh, I need you know

(01:11:18):
content for I which is a word Ihate.
I'm an artist, not a contentmaker, but at any rate, it's
like you know, uh I need contentfor you know like for my
whatever, you know, like and umyou know, but I but I'll but at
the same time it's like Igenuinely want to teach.
And the ceremonies arebeautiful, and um I treat
ceremony as like a canvas, youknow, it's like it's spiritual,

(01:11:40):
but it's also like when I'm inceremony, I do something that
probably people in ceremonyshouldn't do, which is that like
I spend an awful lot of timelike not present and rather
imagining like, oh, the ceremonywould be better if there was
like this like work of art, orif I give if there was the
regalia was changed.
I'm like such a visual personthat I can't like stop myself
from like constantly likereimagining my space.

(01:12:02):
And uh and I and I'm lucky thatI'm surrounded by people who
are like they want to be in thatspace that I want to create,
you know.
So like the more elaborateceremonies that I hold are very
elaborate, and like you know, Imake beautiful regalia,
ceremonial objects, I writepoetry and songs, I do all kinds
of stuff to like to take thebase of what we're already doing

(01:12:25):
and to make it richer and tolike pull in like elements that
have either been lost or thatare other indigenous people have
allowed me to integrate intowhat we do, or you know, things
like that.
And uh, and of course I want tolike record all of that.
I want to do that because I'mproud of what I'm doing, you
know, ego, and I want to do itbecause I want to uh teach and
share, you know.

(01:12:45):
But but you know, there's anelement of there's a camera in
there.
It's like if I don't have thestrength of will personally to
just stop, but if if ourteachers were like cameras are
no longer allowed, there's apart of me that we go that's
kind of like a relief, in partbecause it's like if I'm holding
the camera or if if I'm beingseen by the camera, either way,

(01:13:06):
it takes you out of the space.
You're suddenly aware of howyou look as opposed to like what
you're doing.
And uh to a certain extent,it's like there, you know,
there's a lot of ceremonialtraditions where it's like
cameras aren't allowed, and thatmakes perfect sense to me.
Uh they are allowed where I'min the spaces that I'm in, and
and I take advantage of that.
And I don't think that is badto the extent that I can share
it, but like I don't know, it'sone of those balances.

Nicte-Ha (01:13:30):
So, on the topic of ceremony, since you're an artist
and you're such a prolificartist, do you have a daily
ceremony that you engage inbefore you paint?
Since it sounds like you know,your painting life and your
spiritual life are sointertwined.
So is there, if you want toshare it, is there a particular
ceremony that you engage inaround your art as a spiritual

(01:13:53):
work on maybe a daily basis or aregular basis?

Chicome (01:13:58):
There is, but it's not daily.
It is regular, but not in I umso I make so many things that
serve different purposes.
So it's like I make artworkthat's straight up like to make
a product, you know, because I,you know, I sell clothes and I
sell stuff, you know, like tomake a living, you know.
And I also love that stuff.
I love wearing the clothes thatI make, you know.

Nicte-Ha (01:14:18):
But like uh buy your earrings, by the way.
I do like the earrings.

Chicome (01:14:22):
Um so I make I make uh you know things, I and then I
make like I make sacred objectsthat I don't share online that
are meant only for ceremony, youknow.
So it's like so like there's afull range of what I make, and
like what I make, the way I act,like what I make is determines
the way I act around it.
So it's like um, for example,if I'm making like these

(01:14:42):
paintings that are behind well,you can it's a podcast, they're
not gonna be able to see them,but I'm working at some
paintings right now that are umare that have to do with um uh
what we were talking about, thebalance of giving and taking
from the world.
They're not paintings of ofTeteo of gods, they're paintings
of people and acting like oneof them is farming, one of them,
you know, but they're notsacred paintings, they're like

(01:15:04):
they're paintings to illustratean idea.
So I paint those normally.
I don't like, you know, Ididn't do anything special.
I'm just painting them.
But if I paint uh God, uh Iwant that image to be placed on
altars.
I want it, you know, maybe theoriginal is gonna end up in a
gallery and I'm gonna sell itbecause I need the money, but
like, and there's also notemples to put it in,
unfortunately.
But like I really want theprint of it to be going on

(01:15:25):
people's altars and things likethat.
So in the tradition that Ibelong to, we wear a red
headband and red belt, you know,and so like uh there's a
particular movement that wemake, which is like uh an
offering movement and apermission movement.
So like I'll make that movementwith my red headband above the
painting or to the painting andask the permission of the God or
the sacred entity or whatever,the sacred force that I'm gonna

(01:15:47):
paint.
And then I put on my headbandand belt and I paint while
wearing them.
Because I, you know, I feel thepressure, I feel them on my
body, and it's like a and it'slike an it's like asking them to
guide me, to inspire me towardstruth, you know.
And I do that for anything I'mgonna anytime I'm gonna make
anything sacred.
And then we do more than that.
So it's like every uh day, onealligator, one crocodile,

(01:16:09):
Sesipakli, which happens onceevery 260 days.
I do a peregrinacion, like apilgrimage to a sacred space and
bring paper, paintbrushes,things like that, especially
paper.
Um, and I we do a little, youknow, if there's depending on we
do it slightly different everytime, but you know, like uh we
might do a dance or we might goreally far away and like make an

(01:16:32):
offering.
I always bring my gaythorns andpierce my skin and bleed on the
paper, and ask uh Sipakli toguide me.
Uh he's a god of of artists andwriting and things like that.
And and I'm and I mark eachpage so that it is because I I
can just keep it with the restof my paper, but it's like
marked so that I don't use itaccidentally for anything else.

(01:16:53):
And then I use that paper onlyto make sacred things, you know.
So like there's a certain likerituality that I do, you know.
Oh, oh, and like another thingthat I do is like Sochi Pili and
Sipakli are the two Sipaktonalare the two gods of artists.
So it's like every day thatit's uh Sochi Pili's day, I also
do a pilgrimage for him becauseI feel like uh Sochi Pili has
been present in my heart since Iwas a child, and he has guided

(01:17:17):
me every day of my life, youknow, which has been towards,
you know, like being an artistis like you know, it's such a
strong part of my identity andwho I am, and like the way I
make a living, the way, youknow, like I engage with the
world, it's like, and uh andSochi Bili is the one who gave
me that.
So, you know, I owe him thankslike every day of my life.

(01:17:38):
So, you know, and like uh, youknow, so I have a little altar
for him, a big altar for him.
And uh, you know, so yeah, I dothings for the you know, but it
depends on what I'm making.

Nicte-Ha (01:17:48):
And and for your for your family, how how what was
their reaction when you startedbeing more open about or more I
guess of an intimate participantin ceremonia like this?
Was it was it something thatwas familiar?
It sounds like maybe it's yourbecause your grandmother was uh
taken from her people.
Your great great grandmotherwas taken from her people?

(01:18:08):
Your grandmother was taken fromher people.
Was she did she live to seeyour and is she still alive?
I don't know if she could shecould be.
Did she so she didn't live tosee you start participating in
ceremony?
Does your mother was sheCatholic?
And I know that's complicatedbecause we just talked about the
syncretism of a lot ofmexicanos, and so is she does

(01:18:32):
she join you in ceremony, or isthis something like you know,
she sees that it has benefitsfor you and loves your path and
loves you, or what's the whathow is your family's reaction to
your spiritual tradition?

Chicome (01:18:46):
Well, my my grandmother died, so you know, a long time
ago when I was a kid.
My my mother um is very, very,very Catholic.
Um and uh but I feel like as aparticular kind of Mexican
Catholic, that's like uh prettylike harsh in some ways, but
open in others.
So it's like we've never reallytalked about like like I've
never like said, you know, infront of to my mother or like

(01:19:09):
you know, oh I give offerings toSochi Bee and I do that, you
know.
I never said anything likethat, but like, you know, she
sees my social media, like she'slike, you know, she reads hears
my videos and all of that.
And you know, whenever we talkabout it, it's you know, she's
usually like, oh, I'm so happythat you're you know, like risk
restoring our heritage, and youknow, like she only says
positive things.
Uh I'm scared to delve toodeeply into it.

(01:19:29):
I I'm not sure why I would, forone thing.
It's like there's I don't knowwhat it would accomplish.
And um uh and I'm worried thatshe, you know, like if she
thinks about it too deeply, likeshe might not, you know.
I don't know.
I'm a little nervous, but likeuh but no, she only says nice
things to me.

Nicte-Ha (01:19:44):
That's wonderful.
She sounds like an amazingwoman.

Chicome (01:19:47):
Yeah, she is.

Nicte-Ha (01:19:49):
Um, okay.
I think let's see.
Oh gosh, I have so manythoughts.
I think I could talk to you forlike four hours.
I had this thought when we weretalking about when you were
talking about the indigenousspirituality.
I was thinking, you know,there's it always strikes me
when I study or when I readabout Meshika religion and the

(01:20:10):
and the ideas behind death andblood.
I think like, oh my gosh.
No wonder you could kind oftake Christianity, because what
is that if not like a sacrificeof a human being, right?
And so you would underst theywould understand the idea of
sacrificing a life for some formof rebirth, right?

(01:20:32):
Because those ideas, I knowthey don't map exactly, but I
can see how you can wind themtogether.
But then I think aboutCatholicism and that element of
the framework of community.
And I know that evangelicalChristianity and more
charismatic forms ofChristianity are on the rise in
Mexico.
And so I wonder how that'sgonna impact.

(01:20:53):
You don't have to answer this.
This is literally just my brainspinning out.
But I wonder how much thatshift to more evangelical or
charismatic forms ofChristianity affects that
community fabric of everybodycelebrating the Santos, everyone
doing the ceremonies.
Because I feel like inevangelical Christianity,

(01:21:15):
there's very much this verystrong idea of the devil and
possession and wanting to avoidthat.
And so I wonder if that tearsat some of that communal fabric
in the indigenous community.
I see them here in Chicago,where I live.
There's all of these like verycharismatic, small, you know,
Iglesia de la Navarreen orwhatever.

(01:21:38):
They're all these little tinycharismatic churches, and I know
it's making inroads in theCatholic Church.
And I just wonder what thatdoes to the uh to the community
fabric in those communities.

Chicome (01:21:50):
Well, it's not good.
I don't know too much about it,but there's a I've read about a
community's, I think inChiapas, where part of the
community became evangelical andlike it turned into like it's
it turned violent.
Like the, you know, like theCatholic people, I feel like
they drove them out orsomething.
Or I don't know.
Like it's once you do that,it's like, you know, the
traditional culture, whetheryou're indigenous or m or like

(01:22:11):
not, like small town life too,it's like all wrapped up with uh
tradition, whether that'sCatholic or Native American.
And as soon as that gets pulledin, it's like the community
itself gets fractured.
Like I know that happens, butlike you know, it doesn't affect
me that much.
Like I, you know, I I don't Iwas raised Catholic, I don't
really get Protestants.
I don't know what they're youknow, like I've I've never

(01:22:32):
really been exposed to any, youknow, like uh it's not something
that I ever think about, youknow.
And um Catholicism, I do.
I think about it with a lot.
It's like, oh my god, I grew upI grew up with it, I'm
surrounded by it.
It's like, you know, it's likeuh but um but yeah, I know that
it has an effect, but I don'treally know know too much beyond
that.
Um but but you you likesomething that you said before
that though, that I I don'tagree with is um I do think that

(01:22:55):
like Catholicism and indigenousspirituality are utterly and
completely different.
It's like I think that there'san aesthetic element where it's
like Jesus died and it lookskind of like a you know a blood
sacrifice and things like that,and it gets incorporated in
certain ways where it's like youknow, like what I've said about
like the Jesus getting spiriton the side and corn falling
out, it's like the blood getssubstituted with corn, and
that's clearly linked toindigenous ideas, but like

(01:23:18):
indigenous, like European waysof thinking in Catholicism is
very much about like good andevil, like uh linear time that
begins and ends, like you know,there's there's like I feel like
at its fundamental base inEuropean spirituality is utterly
and completely different.
It's like you know, monotheismis completely divorced from the

(01:23:39):
pantheism that's indigenous toMexico.
You know, it's like they're sodifferent that um oh I agree.

Nicte-Ha (01:23:45):
I think what I was talking about was was as you
said it, the aesthetic Oh yeah,there's the surface level
imagery.
You could kind of see where thewhere the the priests kind of
put the hooks in to kind of liketalk about Catholicism.
And I know they imposed itwithout really converting
people, but I think you'reright.

(01:24:06):
Aesthetically, there are sortof elements that are similar,
but not in the deeper theology.

Chicome (01:24:12):
Yeah, no, in in the in the deepest sense, they're like
Western culture and indigenousculture are not aligned in any
way, they're completelydifferent.
And uh yeah, so like, yeah, andit's and it's been a beautiful
path to be to be searching that,learning about it, integrating
it into who I am, and helpingothers to do the same.

Nicte-Ha (01:24:32):
Well, thank you so much.
This is I I think let's see, Icould keep talking, but I think
that I want to be respectful ofyour time because I know what a
busy person you are.
And I just want to say that Ifound this, I think, through you
actually.
And it's on the Jade Oracledeck.
And so what I've been doing isI've been doing polls from it

(01:24:56):
for my um for my my interviewsand just sort of seeing what
comes up.
And so I for this conversation,I got that's so funny.
And I got the rabbit, and I gotthe flayed one.

Chicome (01:25:19):
Okay.

Nicte-Ha (01:25:20):
And so the way that I read the the kind of three that
I that popped out was I use thismore as like a guide to any
just to give me a sense of somethings to maybe ask for or talk
about.
But the Shipethotek card is areminder of the interdependency
of existence and that death isnot an end but a way to a

(01:25:41):
beginning, which is very muchwhat you expressed.
Yes.
And then is I think if I'mreading this correctly, that you
take off your mask and be yourauthentic self.
And you, as a teacher, you asan artist, I feel like that
really represents what you do,right?
You embody everything that youare in what you do.
And then I also have Sholot,who is a guide, right?

(01:26:06):
Sholot is the twin, El Hemelo,he's here to help you find your
way in the darkness.
And so I think your work andyour words can really guide a
lot of people who are kind oflost in this maze of confusion
and the kind of web of historythat we find ourselves caught in
as people who are in betweencultures and finding our way

(01:26:31):
spiritually and personally.
One thing I've been so it seemslike I was initially, I was
like, I don't know what all ofthese cards have to do with this
conversation.
But I feel like once again, theJade Oracle cards really help
to bring uh to they they're verypredictive.
I'm getting a little bitweirded out now.

Chicome (01:26:50):
But today is the day five movement, which is sacred
to Sherlock.

Nicte-Ha (01:26:54):
Oh my god, are you serious?

Chicome (01:26:56):
Yeah, it was so crazy.
I actually put I posted aboutthat on my Instagram today.

Nicte-Ha (01:27:01):
There's a whole thing I did not look at your
Instagram, so I had no idea.
Wow, that's wild.
Well, one thing that I've beenasking people is just to close
out, if there are any, ifthere's any particular, I mean,
I think you've had a lot ofreally wise words for us in your
experiences and how you shareand what you do, but if there's
anything that you would like tospecifically share um to kind of

(01:27:24):
close this out, either athought or a reflection that you
hope that people leave theconversation with, or a poem or
a piece of writing, anythingthat you would like to share
with people uh to close out theconversation, now is the time.

Chicome (01:27:42):
No, I think that it like what I I mean, I feel like
the main thing that I'm alwaysrepeating over and over and over
is this idea about living inbalance with the world that
we're in, about the debt that weowe.
And uh, you know, I feel likethat's the root of all
indigenous wisdom and knowledge.
And, you know, whatever onefeels about like ponchetto dance
or Aztec dance or you know,like our heritage or the world

(01:28:07):
that we live in, or like whetheryou're a Chicago Mexican person
or a white person or whoeverlistening to this, I feel like
it's equally true.
You know, so like uh like Isound like a broken record, but
I will repeat it.
The this importance that likethe world gives us everything
that we need to live, and weneed to give back.

Nicte-Ha (01:28:25):
Thank you.
Well, you definitely give backin all of your art and all of
your words.

Chicome (01:28:30):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Well, it was an honor to be onthe show.
Thank you so much.
I had a lovely time.

Nicte-Ha (01:28:36):
Thank you.
It was it was a beautifulconversation.

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