May 28, 2025 • 60 mins
We bring our conversation with Osea to a close! In this episode, I forgot to include an intro but we cover what it means to be a curandera, how not to be a spiritual colonist, more history and politics, and the complexity of making magic.
Mentioned in this episode:
The Invention of Nature: Alexander Von Humboldt's New World by Andrea Wulf
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicte-Ha (00:00):
So you know, for people out there who might not
be familiar with curanderismo,there's no like central colegia
de curanderismo, there is nodiploma, there is no star that
says you've graduated and nowyou're a curandero or a
curandera.
Did you train with people?
(00:20):
Did you find them?
How did you find people totrain with?
Did you just read?
Was it meditation?
Kind of what how did yourlearning and your path grow over
the years?
And I realize it's a very largequestion.
So take your time with thatone.
Osea (00:36):
My experience has been people find me as opposed to the
other way around.
And if I am open to assistingand supporting people and being
open about who I am, that openeddoors for them to share who
they are and what they know withme.
And so, by the nature of just,you know, the type of work I do
in activism, the type of work Ido in community, I just ended up
(01:00):
meeting people.
You know, one thing leads toanother.
I get close or we get close,and then we open up and they're
willing to show me things.
And and not everything has comefrom people that are from
exclusively Mexico, right?
Like curanderismo, you see itin Mesoamerica in general.
So one of the greatest guidesthat I ever had in curanderismo
(01:22):
is actually Nicaraguan.
She's, you know, someone Iconsider an auntie.
And there's a lot that sheshowed me, right?
Has has it also involved goingback to Mexico?
Has it also involved going backto other places in Latin
America and learning from folks?
Yes, 100%.
There are also people that arecuranderas in Puerto Rico,
(01:42):
right?
There are also people that arecuranderas in the Caribbean in
general.
So it's not a term that islimited to being Mexican or of
Mexican ancestry.
Like it is a term that canencapsulate all kinds of
medicinal and well-beingpractices that are that have an
indigenous history, that in somecases were brought into the
(02:03):
Mesti Sahi and continue to existin Latin America.
My exposure has been primarilywith people who are
Mesoamerican, Central American,and Caribbean peoples, and
mostly women that shared with metheir practices, which I'm
super grateful for.
And then I'd say to someextent, because I just also tend
(02:23):
to be cerebral, I would justlook for all kinds of like books
and guides to learn plants,particularly.
So there's a lot that you learnfrom hands-on practice for
sure.
But there there would be like alot of guides that I would
download, get PDFs.
Some of them were actuallypublished by universities in
Mexico, which is wild when youthink about this.
(02:44):
That like universityresearchers were compiling this,
but like, you know, UNAM, shoutout to UNAM, the Universidad
Autona May Mexico, because theirdepartments have put a lot of
work into the preservation ofindigenous knowledge and the use
of medicinal plants that arenative to Mexico.
And so there are a lot of textsthat I downloaded that went in
(03:06):
depth into like the use bydifferent tribes of different
plants for medicinal and evenspiritual purposes.
And that is just some coolshit.
Like, you know, when I've hadthe opportunity to like sit down
and read.
Obviously, most of that was inSpanish.
One thing that I am veryhesitant to do, uh, and it goes
back to this earlierconversation we had about
spiritual bypassing and thecommercialization and extraction
(03:30):
that happened by Westerners ofindigenous practice for the
purpose of profit.
Like, I am very, very wary ofpaying a European person or
paying a person who is not ofyou know indigenous or mestizafe
descent to train or teachthings that are native to our
(03:55):
people and native to nativepeople.
I know that they exist, I knowthat there are these several
thousand dollar shabaniccurandero come get your
certificate and your gold starat a retreat in Tulum for a
weekend, and I don't fuck withany of that.
That is not it.
I fuck with the Thias that arein their homes for 30, 40, 50,
(04:21):
60 years cooking up what they'vebeen cooking up and are willing
to show me in their kitchen,like what it is that they use
and what it is that they do.
Like that to me is where thatknowledge really resides is it's
an ancestral wisdom, it's inregular people that have held on
to these traditions and arepassing them down in their
(04:42):
families and they're passingthem down to people that are
willing to listen.
I've been very hesitant to gointo spaces that are remotely
commercialized.
I don't trust them.
I'm just gonna be honest,right?
I trust what the tías and theabuelas are willing to share
with me.
And abuelos, like every now andthen there are abuelos that
also will show some of thethings that they do because I
(05:05):
have a sharp resistance to theway that this has been
distilled, commercialized forcapitalistic purposes.
What are they doing or havethey done to give back to the
communities where thesepractices originated?
One need only look at maybe thecase study of what happened to
um María Sabina in Oaxaca, whoshared her knowledge of
(05:28):
medicinal mushrooms and manyother plants.
If there ever was a cautionarytale for what comes out of
sharing your knowledge in a waythat allows it to be
commercialized, capitalizedupon, and just how that leads to
a shit show for a nativecommunity, the story of Maria
(05:49):
Sabina is is is an incrediblecautionary tale.
Nicte-Ha (05:53):
Do you feel like if you have a curandera or
curandera who is charging forservices?
Right.
Obviously, there's a differencebetween the $5,000 shamanic
retreat at Tulum and thensomebody who's a practitioner,
you know.
Osea (06:10):
I mean, you're paying for their time, their knowledge,
their experience, and theirenergy.
So it's energetic exchange.
It would be wholly uncool foryou to take up somebody's time,
energy, resource, knowledge,take advantage of them for a
couple of hours, and be like,cool, thanks.
Right?
If that person's not like yourimmediate family member or
(06:32):
somebody you have like a reallyloving relationship with, that
just seems fucked up.
That's like telling somebody tocome fix your roof.
The roofer works for 10 hours,and you're like, listen, I
appreciate you, it's all vibes.
Nicte-Ha (06:45):
Like so the distinction is if somebody is if
it's commercialization, if it'sperformative, but if you're
actually genuinely working,which kind of the distinction
happens maybe with thepractitioner themselves.
For example, my experience,right, could have been very much
performative.
Like it was part of like apackage tour deal to Bali,
(07:07):
right?
It was like my day of wellness,okay?
And I got real sarcastic aboutit.
And then, like I said, itkicked my ass.
Osea (07:15):
Who did it to you, a native to the place?
Yes.
Was a person who did it to you,somebody that came up in the
tradition.
Nicte-Ha (07:21):
Oh, yes.
Osea (07:22):
Okay, well, like, shout out to them.
Speaker (07:25):
And he was and he's been doing this for a very long
time, and he got very well paidfor his work, and then that that
to me is the as he should.
Osea (07:36):
Okay.
You told me that it was someguy named Steve who, you know,
did a retreat for for a weekendand is like, yeah, I'm a
motherfucking Balinese shamannow.
Um, you know, and Steve is justplying people with
hallucinogens and mangoes.
Nicte-Ha (07:52):
Oh no, there were no hallucinogens involved, although
honestly, I it would have beenmore understandable.
I see your point.
I see your point.
Yes, yes.
I just wanted to make thatdistinction clear because I feel
like some people will be like,oh, well, then that means that
you know, people shouldn'tcharge me for the spiritual
healing or for this or for thisritual.
Osea (08:09):
Listen, it's energetic exchange.
In Buru Hiria, we call itlicencia.
You pay your license, right?
Because if you don't, it'sgoing to be sucked out of you.
That's the part that is like,all right, listen, man, you're
paying your energetic exchangebecause otherwise I could just
tap this out of you, right?
And dry you up to charge youfor it in different ways.
(08:32):
So if you don't want to paywith your life force, then maybe
you should pay with some otherthing, an energetic exchange.
So, yeah, I think that that'sthe point that I'm making with
anybody that wants to do, let'ssay, shamanic healing practices.
I just, you know, use somediscernment.
Like I said, if the person isclaiming to practice a practice
(08:55):
that is not of their heritage,that's not a place where they
have, you know, or it's not atradition that they have spent
an extensive amount of time in,that they have been embedded in,
you know what I'm saying, thatthey have some humility around,
that if you get any of those,like, mm-hmm, this sounds like a
colonizer vibes, then it'sprobably a colonizer, and you're
(09:19):
gonna get a very differentexperience.
And I'm not saying that peoplefrom the place or that people
from sort of the points oforigins don't take advantage of
people, they absolutely fuckingdo, they take advantage of their
ignorance, and some peoplemight think of that as being
reparations.
So I'm not here to shit ontheir game either.
(09:41):
I'm just saying usediscernment, be mindful.
If somebody sounds likeappealing to you because they
look and sound a little bit toomuch like you as an outsider to
the culture, and you're like,oh, but I'm an American, and
this guy's an American, but he'sin whatever the fuck place, but
(10:02):
he's in Tulum, but like hespeaks English and like he's
from California, and you know,like we really just vibe.
Um, so go get coffee.
But maybe that's not theperson, you know what I mean?
Nicte-Ha (10:16):
That's that impression was way too on point, girl.
That was that impression wasway too on point.
Listen, I I'd be fucking I feelattacked, honestly, as a
Californian.
I feel attacked who's been toBurning Man, I feel attacked.
Osea (10:32):
Listen, I here's one thing I'm gonna take responsibility
for.
I will take responsibility forhaving been in like spiritual
retreat spaces, um, and justfucking them all up.
For for the purpose of liketruth, like for the purpose of
honesty, you know.
So let's spice this up a littleand and just inject a little
(10:53):
bit of honesty into thissituation.
Um, and maybe some muertos.
I don't know.
You know, let's make it aparty, like for realsies though.
It's like, oh, we're gonna wewe're gonna call this shamanism,
like check this shit out.
I want my beer.
And yeah, not everybody'sready.
Nicte-Ha (11:09):
In fact, hold my beer and pour some out because los
muertos.
Listen, they're thirsty.
Osea (11:15):
It's about to get it's about to get live.
And so I've been in those typeof situations where you know the
people that organized thosetype of events ended up hiding
in a stairwell, deeplyuncomfortable.
Because some of them just plypeople with hallucinogens that
(11:35):
make them more pliable toinfluence, and then what they
create is more or less apsychological victim that that
person begins to associate theeuphoria of what they experience
on the hallucinogen with thepractitioner, and so they just
go, Oh my god, like everythingis difficult in my life.
I just need to go to thisperson.
And because that person isplying them with a hallucinogen,
(11:57):
which by the way, many of themare 100% legal, like plant
medicine is extensive, doesn'tonly include the ones that are
like classified as controlledsubstances.
There are lots of plants outthere and other types of
ingestibles that can give you aeuphoric experience.
And there are plenty of peopleout here that are aware of that,
and they are doing some realspiritual bypassing, charging
(12:22):
people money, calling it ritual,calling it, you know, sacred
whatever medicine.
And what they're doing isthey're creating a bunch of
people that are chained to them,energetically chained to them
psychologically, becausesomebody has never experienced
that before.
They now think that that personis the guru and is the answer
(12:43):
instead of really lookinginwardly and questioning their
own thoughts, processes, andbehaviors.
Healing and growth is notalways easy, it's not always
comfortable, but I firmlybelieve it always involves you.
It's not something that we puton the pedestal of somebody
else's lap and go, I need you tofix me.
(13:04):
Right?
Like you need to fix you.
Now, is it totally reasonableto engage in more people to help
you fix you?
Yeah, wow, a bunch of us areout here.
You know what I'm saying?
Because guidance is always animportant thing, especially for
those of us that come fromtraditions that believe in
collective wisdom and collectivewell-being.
(13:26):
You go to the collective tohelp support your well-being and
you contribute to collectivewell-being.
We're not out here in this,like, you know, American or
rugged individualism likementality of wellness.
We believe that the collectiveis part of what supports our
well-being, and we support thewell-being of the collective,
right?
And there are too many folks inhealing spaces.
(13:52):
I'm like throwing up air quoteshere, that you know, they want
to, they want to disconnect thepractices from that
understanding.
They want to make itindividualistic, they want to
make it so that, like, no,you're only gonna get here
through my 12-step program,you're only gonna get here
through my retreat, you're onlygonna get here through this.
Speaker (14:12):
By my notebook, here's here's a coaster and an
inspirational poster.
Right.
And this just patently false.
Osea (14:44):
Anybody who is secure in what they do is not gonna lash
out at you if you want toexplore other options, if you
want to dive into thingsyourself, they can counsel you,
they can advise you, they cantell you what the pros and cons
might be of you trying somethingdifferent.
Sometimes people maybe in anattempt to spiritually bypass,
(15:07):
they go get a consulta with onetype of practitioner.
They don't like what thepractitioner says, so then they
go to a different type ofpractitioner and then a third
practitioner and then a fourthpractitioner.
And I'm like, okay, be carefulthat this does not lead you to
spiritual psychosis when you'reinvolving this many entities.
Be mindful of why you're soquick to reject what one
(15:33):
practitioner has said.
Is it that you're just lookingfor somebody to tell you that
you don't have to do thingsdifferently?
Everything you've gotta you'vegotta approach it from a
position of discernment.
That sometimes a practitioneris gonna be really real with you
and they're gonna tell yousomething that makes you
uncomfortable, and they're gonnatell you something about
yourself that feelsuncomfortable to have to deal
with that truth, and it feelsuncomfortable to have to change
(15:54):
that truth.
But if what you do is like,well, let me bounce around to
three or four otherpractitioners to see if they
tell me something nice about me,they like validate everything
that I'm doing and don't tell meto change, that is not
necessarily the answer.
I think that every situation isdifferent.
I'm not a fan of practitionersthat go and tell a person, oh my
god, so many people are cursingyou, and I need like a thousand
(16:16):
dollars to like buy a millioncrystals and all these herbs.
And if you don't do this, likestarting this weekend, your dog
is gonna die.
But it exists and people fallfor it.
The chicanery is real, right?
So I don't know.
Nicte-Ha (16:34):
Honestly, that's been my my hesitancy.
I've been interested.
The people I know who do thiskind of thing, like my mom, for
example.
My mom only does this kind ofthing when she's directly asked.
And she doesn't, as far as Iknow, take any money for it.
And it is only when somebodyapproaches her and asks her for
(16:57):
specifically for work.
Or I sometimes ask her for goodweather because she always
delivers.
I don't know how.
Osea (17:07):
I love that for you guys.
Nicte-Ha (17:09):
I did it one time, girl.
Let me tell you what happened.
It was at Obama's inauguration,and I told my mom, I was like,
it's gotta be good weathertomorrow.
She was like, okay.
She was like, well, let's dothis.
What do you want?
And I said, I want it to beclear, and I want it to be what
did I say?
I wanted it to be sunny and Iwanted it to be clear.
(17:32):
She was like, that's it.
And I was like, yeah, I thinkthat's it.
I just, you know, I don't wantit to rain and I want it to be
sunny.
She was like, okay.
So it was clear, it was sunny,and it was a high of eight
degrees.
Osea (17:47):
So I almost gave myself for contact for the faces with
my hands.
And I'm like, well.
She's like, boy, you you gotwhat you're guys.
That's why I say, like, youknow, this is why when you when
you do a consulta, man, yougotta be real specific with your
(18:08):
asks and your questions.
Because, you know, there's alot of like really beautiful,
let's say, trickster entityenergies out there that are
like, oh, that's what you want.
I got you.
That is exactly what you'regonna get.
And then afterwards, you'relike, fuck my life.
Why didn't I why didn't Ithink?
Nicte-Ha (18:30):
So my specify.
My one more story.
My brother and sister-in-lawwere getting married.
Summer.
I was invited, it was the firsttime I was meeting Andrew's
family.
Call my mom.
The weather report was notauspicious because it was like
the south and it was July, so itwas gonna be hot and rainy, and
(18:50):
it was just not looking good.
So I said, Hey mom, can youhelp me out?
And she said, sure.
There were multiple tornadoesin the area that night, none of
them came anywhere near where wewere.
Every single hotel in the citywe were in lost power except for
(19:12):
the wedding parties hotel.
It didn't rain until after thewedding was over and everyone
was back at the hotel.
Osea (19:20):
And I was like, Okay, thanks, Mom! I hope she got like
a lot of rest and soup and likewarm blanket rest after doing
some work like that.
And I only say it becausewhenever you're working, at
least in my path, right?
Whenever you're working withnatural elements, like natural
(19:45):
elements are just and we're likepew and they're like and so
when you're working to let's saysynchronize natural elements in
the favorite direction that youwant them to move in, like
sometimes that's even harderthan dealing with people because
natural elements are like bigboom energy, right?
(20:06):
So I just hope that mommy gotlots of hugs and naps and soups
and after whatever all that was,because sinking and bending,
you know, you've seen Avatar,right?
Like Avatar is freaking cooland also in some ways spot on.
It's like if you're sinking andmoving energy for like wind,
(20:26):
water, etc.
unknown (20:30):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Channeling that kind of energy is a lot.
It's a lot.
Shout out to the druids.
It's they've been doing it forwarfare, but uh, it's a lot.
Nicte-Ha (20:41):
Yeah.
No, my mom's got an amazingstory about she's gonna be on
this podcast.
I'm gonna invite her to talkabout her journey because she's
got a very interesting storyabout multiple interactions that
I think are just interesting.
I don't know, interesting issuch a lame word.
I want to tell the storybecause I want you to hear the
(21:03):
story.
And but I feel like it's Iprobably should just let her
tell the story first.
Osea (21:08):
Your mom is very cool.
She's a very, very, very coolhuman being.
Nicte-Ha (21:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the problem is that when I Iparticipated in this cura with
her, but like she's like, Ican't really teach you what I do
because I don't really do it.
She's like, I just ask.
And I was like, anyone inspecific?
(21:35):
She's like, I mean, I have abook that like the curandera
that our family worked with gaveme.
And I say these prayers, andthat's what I do when somebody
asks me for a cuda.
Osea (21:49):
I love that for her.
Nicte-Ha (21:51):
And I was like, okay.
Osea (21:53):
Noticed that a $5,000 retreat to Tulum was not
involved.
Nicte-Ha (21:58):
No, no.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
But but there were some kind of that type.
Nicte-Ha (22:04):
It was yes, and her initiation was not, it was.
I just want you to hear herstory in person as she tells it.
But I, yeah, it's one of thosethings where I was
participating, and I could not,for the life of me, if you were
like, I want this.
It was me and my sister and mymom, and we were doing a quuda
for my close relative, and itwas an incredibly powerful
(22:29):
experience.
You know, could I do it?
Probably not, but I don't haveher experience, right?
But it was also one of thosethings where it's like, I don't
think there's no script for it.
There's no she has the littlebook and she has the prayers,
but the but that's just such asmall part of it.
So I think I've just alwaysbeen intrigued, you know, by how
(22:54):
people come to this and do itand have confidence in it.
Right.
Osea (23:00):
I mean, think I think it can take a lot of different
twists and turns.
It's all, I mean, I am abeliever, and it all goes back
to Source, right?
And that Source is also havingthe most cool, most fun video
game experience with all of us.
We're all so thoroughlyentertaining.
We are like the coolest versionof The Sims, right?
(23:24):
So I am I'm a big believer inthat ultimately you can all tie
it back to Source.
It's all going so you you canapproach this from a lot of
different angles and it's gonnawork, right?
You don't have to work with aspecific entity, you don't have
to work with a specificdivinity, right?
Like there've been so many warsfought on this planet over
(23:45):
religions and whose gods arestronger, and you know, who the
true god is, or who and I'mlike, We're like Sims, we're so
entertaining.
If you were to look at us fromspace, you would just see this
really cool massive planet fullof water and clouds and land and
be like, are they seriouslyfighting over what to call their
(24:07):
gods?
It sounds like little kidsplaying with G.I.
Joes being like, my G.I.
Joe is stronger than yours is.
It just sounds a little absurd,right?
That we kill people and wedestroy nations over this.
Nicte-Ha (24:22):
Well, and the fact that the fact that they think
the creator of the universe, ifthere is a creator, which I
don't whatever, the fact theythink their creator of the
universe, who created thehorseshoe nebula that's like
millions of light years across,create all the infinite space,
and hydrogen and suns gives ashit whether or not you have sex
(24:45):
with whoever, or that you'rewearing underwear of a certain
like it's just bizarre to me.
Osea (24:54):
It is very bizarre to me, too.
I'm like, do you really thinkthat that which created all the
beauty and complexity ofexistence was like, yo, but let
me be petty though?
Like on the seventh day, let mebe petty, you know, in in the
particular belief systems that Ifollow.
There's a belief in overarchingmega mega source energy, and
(25:17):
then energies that are not asbig as that one, but have a
little more personality in termsof like being more like us, and
ones that have also naturalaffinities, right?
Energies that represent naturalelements, and they have names,
and one could even argue theyhave personalities, and I do
(25:39):
think that that is because humanbeings give anthropomorphic
characteristics to things, andthat we tend to affinity
ourselves with what matches ourown humanity.
I'm sure that the Greek godswere a vibe because they also
just exhibited so many elementsof human nature, right?
(26:01):
And that can be said about thethe divinities and the deities
that exist in a lot of differentworld belief systems, is that
we are seeing ourselves inarchetypes, we are seeing
ourselves in these pantheons, weare seeing the best and the
worst and the interesting ofhumanity and the lessons that
they teach.
And I personally, you know,anthropological perspective,
(26:24):
think that is so freaking cool.
Do you think that's so cool?
Nicte-Ha (26:27):
Speaking of that, I've seen in the last 20 years this
increasing interest, andunfortunately in many places
it's tied in with nationalismand in some cases white
supremacy, but this increasinginterest in native religion
revival.
So there's, you know, Greekrevivalists who are re-engaging
(26:48):
with the Greek gods.
There are Norse pagans, many ofwhom are fighting.
I want to just be clear,they're fighting very actively
against nationalism and whitesupremacy in their movement.
Uh, there's also EasternEuropean pagan revivalism, and a
lot of these seem to go hand inhand with a nationalist,
(27:09):
racialized view.
And so I'm just wondering, youknow, do you think that Latin
American spirituality, you know,because I know there's like
there's also Aztech revivalism,you know, Dansa Azteca has
really expanded from just sortof like a cultural art form into
its own religious practice,right?
And so in general, I I thinkit's it's very interesting to
(27:31):
see people moving away fromChristianity, away from from
that movement, and looking attheir religious traditions, but
at the same time, you know, I amdisturbed by the links in many
of these movements withnationalism and with exclusion
and a reliance on geneticpurity.
Osea (27:51):
Right.
I mean, I'll think about itlike this to what degree are you
celebrating and exploringheritage that was stamped out by
colonialism and trying tocreate a hegemony around power,
colonialism, capitalism, etc.
Okay, like I'm down forwhatever is saying, no, no, no,
(28:14):
no, we're gonna go back andreclaim what has been, you know,
natively ours and traditionallyours before these systems came
and erased culture and historyand practices and views, which
they did, right?
That's the history of theempires, is how the empires
colonized and conquered eachother and tried to erase the
(28:34):
practice and existence of whatall came before them.
Okay, so the degree to whichwhat you're doing is, as you're
saying, reviving what isbeautiful and meaningful and
powerful, and you know, tracksback in our our DNA and our
ancestors.
Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
All right, you want to do itfor the new world version of
(28:57):
further conquest, furtherimperialism, further
colonialistic interest, fuck allthat.
No, it's not for fascism.
Okay, thanks, bye.
So I think that that is where Idraw that line is if what you
are doing is again buildingcommunity, building collective
awareness, building collectivecollaboration and cooperation in
(29:18):
healthy and balanced ways, thatsounds dope as fuck.
If you're doing it to then justgive yourself an excuse to, you
know, get together with theboys for fascism, but you want
to call it, but you want to callit, you know, some type of
spiritual tradition, I thinkthat's where we have to draw the
(29:38):
line, right?
Is this leading towardsfascism?
Is it leading towards, youknow, further imperialism and
colonialism and xenophobia?
Or is it leading to balancewithin the collective?
Right.
And you're gonna get a lot ofdisagreement, even like, you
know, there's no such thing asLatin American spirituality,
there's no such thing as likeLatin American.
(29:59):
Poof.
Latin America exists as aconcept because the Spanish came
and colonized a bunch of very,very, very different people,
very, very, very differentcultures, and then put them
under the banner of the SpanishEmpire.
And then in the course of theyears, they just went to rip off
that yoke and you know claimback their independent yet
(30:24):
mysticized cultures because theywere not living in vacuums.
The Taínos were travelingbetween the Caribbean and the
Mexican peninsula.
Nicte-Ha (30:34):
Yeah, but I also I'm not sure.
I mean, like the the you know,the rebellions against Spain and
the independence movements in alot of countries in what we
call Latin America.
Thank you for the gentlecorrection.
But a lot of the countries thatwe call Latin America, you
know, there were movements thatwere driven by and involved
(30:55):
indigenous leaders andcommunities and the oppressed,
enslaved people, black people.
And there are also lots of themthat were led by primarily
white European landowners whodid not want the criollos wanted
to keep their own power andthey didn't want to give it to
the enslaved, the indigenous.
(31:17):
They wanted to take it fromSpain.
Why do I have to give you mymoney?
I want to keep it all.
And so it's interesting.
I read a book about Alexandervon Humboldt's amazing book
called The Invention of Nature.
Everyone should read this book.
Anyways, he was a friend withmy god Bolivar.
(31:38):
I was about to listen, I wasabout to go down the road.
He was friends with Bolivar,and he told Bolivar, he said,
racism and class is a problem,and it is going to fuck you up.
If you if you seek independencenow without fixing that shit,
you're gonna fuck it up.
(31:59):
And Bolivar ignored him.
Osea (32:03):
Promises were made.
Promises were made.
Nicte-Ha (32:05):
And they were not kept, and it created so many
problems rolling forward.
So it's interesting.
I mean, I I agree that to agreater extent than the United
States, by far, countries inwhat we call Latin America have
involved and had indigenous andmestizo people at every level of
(32:27):
government and and the powerstructure.
And the power structure thoughremains white, you know, up
until like very recently.
I mean, and you even have likeone of the weird things is like
looking at South America andlooking at Uruguay and being
like, nobody ever talks aboutthis place.
And then you're like, that'sbecause they genocided all of
(32:50):
the indigenous people in thisarea, and everyone who lives
here is European descended.
And then people are like, oh,well, they're the most, you
know, they're the most uh stablecountry in South America
because nobody talks about them.
And I'm like, so they had themost successful genocide on the
continent.
It's astonishing.
Osea (33:14):
When I'm sitting here, you know, not responding, I'm like,
because I'm just sipping mytea.
Speaker (33:18):
I know.
Osea (33:19):
Like, I'm just sipping my tea on all of that.
Like, the the one only needs tolook to Haiti to see how much
it threatens the hegemony blackpeople and brown people and
indigenous people be riling upand and are coming into their
(33:42):
own stability and successwithout the need of whiteness,
without the need of colonialism,without the need of, and
they're like, no, we will buryyou, we will bury you in debt,
we will bury you in the world.
Nicte-Ha (33:56):
We will spend 400 years cutting you off from any
access to capital, assistance,partnership, development.
We will go after that's theamazing thing is that they have
gone after Haiti so hard.
Osea (34:13):
Listen, the purposeful destabilization is real, and
it's not just Haiti.
You can look at this in theAfrican continent with France,
you know what I'm saying?
With the Dutch, with Israelnow, right?
Like it's it's not just astandalone one-off with Haiti,
unfortunately, you know, andthere are some countries that
are adamantly taking a standagainst that and booting out all
(34:38):
of this influence thatcontinues to try to control and
destabilize them, right?
And keep them from havingautonomy over their own
development.
You see that in just likecountries that want to shake off
the frunk, right?
It's it's a frunk that's usedin West Africa, but there are
there are countries right nowthat are like, no, fuck all
this.
We're gonna go back to our owncurrency.
(35:00):
So, you know, again, it's likeso many different podcasts and
episodes could come out ofthese.
Nicte-Ha (35:07):
This is why we need to have our own podcast, girl.
We need to get on and justtalk.
You realize that now I amrunning at three hours of
footage, just us talking.
This is gonna be like asix-part series at this point.
Yep.
Yep.
Osea (35:23):
You know, I mean, this is what we can have people call in.
Give them a give them thetalking to of all this shit that
I miss from college, to behonest.
It's like I can go into thesedeep dives for fun all the time.
But in, you know, in my in myreal world life, there are
definitely moments where ourfriends are like, yo, you're
(35:44):
doing the most right now.
Like, you're thank you for theTED talk, but like, I just I
just wanted to hear about thisone thing.
I just wanted an answer to thisone question.
And thank you for going into adeep dive of like the history
and the politics of X situation.
And I'm like, yeah, my bad.
Nicte-Ha (36:02):
That's me all the time with everything.
This poor woman asked me aquestion at a birthday party
about school lottery, and Italked for 20 minutes about like
the process and why and whichand how, and she got this look
on her face, and I was like, Ohno! And I went to my husband and
(36:25):
I said, Honey, do I just liketalk at people?
He's like, Well, maybe youcould just ask like more
questions, and I was like, Butpeople, they ask questions, and
then there's an answer, butthere's like context that you
need for the answer that theyneed to hear all of it.
Osea (36:45):
I tell you, and this is also, you know, like the teacher
in me, the educator in me isthat like my conclusion for this
is like I just need to.
I've been working onplatforming a lot of these, you
know, TED talks about thesedifferent topics, just so I can
preserve them for kids, so I canpreserve them for young people,
so this information that willprobably be, if not already,
(37:06):
banned.
Nicte-Ha (37:08):
Dude, I actually considered starting a list and
ordering books, but I'm like,these books are gonna disappear.
unknown (37:15):
Yep.
Osea (37:16):
These books are going to get disappeared, they're going
to be banned not directly, butsuddenly they're gonna be
unavailable.
Amazon can't send them to you,blah, blah, blah.
Right.
So, my my plan is to preserve alot of these histories, issues,
discussions, challenges, um, indigital format so that the kids
(37:39):
and young people of the futurehave access to it because
they're going after highereducation, right?
They're going after trying toexercise control on K-12
education, exercise control overuniversity education.
They want to audit every singleunit, they want to audit every
single course, they want to havecontrol over what can and can't
(38:00):
be said, what can and can't betaught, what can and can't be
questioned.
And I'm like, oh, preserve allof it, preserve all of it so
that our children, ourchildren's children can have
these kind of conversations, canhave these kind of debates, can
have these kind ofopportunities to, you know, to
(38:20):
again to practice discernment,to exercise their, you know,
problem solving and criticalreasoning skills.
Because that is the sincereworry that I have that, you
know, all the cool spiritualtalk aside, like part of what
being a guerrera means to me islike being a guerrera for my
children's future, for thefuture of children, to preserve
(38:41):
the integrity of them being ableto question the world around
them, for them being able tohear different sides of a story,
to not buy the safely packagedpropagandized version of what
they are taught or what they seearound them or what they see in
digital space, right?
That sometimes becomes an echochamber for certain
perspectives.
(39:02):
It's very important to me topreserve the integrity of
critical reasoning andrecognizing that you know when
people want to paint, that therewas a villain and there was a
hero in history, there'sprobably more to that story,
right?
To the victor goes the spoilsmore often than not, and to the
victor goes telling the story inperpetuity, which is often
(39:24):
maybe not the whole story.
And so I think that that issomething that I I value
heavily.
Again, going back to theseideas of balance and justice, is
that you know, what we're doingright now, that that can
continue to exist, that thatwill not be disappeared along
with everything else that theywant to plunge into darkness.
Nicte-Ha (39:47):
I mean, it starts early too, you know, talk about
good guys and bad guys and goodwords and bad words.
And I told my kids today, Isaid, there are no bad words
except the ones you use to hurtother people.
And that's using your words ina way to cause injury.
Right?
There are impolite words, thereare words that have a lot of
(40:09):
bad history to them, there arewords, there's lots of these
things, right?
But you're not just because yousaid, oh shit, that's not a bad
word.
Is it impolite, out of used outof context, maybe not
appropriate?
Fine.
Do you maybe want to reserveyour swearing for situations
that call that need thatemphasis?
That's fine.
(40:29):
I'm not gonna call them badwords.
And then the other day mydaughter said something about
bad guys and going to jail, andI said, Well, I was like, how do
you know who the bad guys are?
And she was like, Well, they'rethe people that that break the
law.
And I'm like, Well, but whomakes the law?
(40:50):
Right?
Osea (40:52):
And so it's wild how kids get conditioned to think these
things when we're not the onesthat teach them that, right?
This is one of my huge concernsin education is that even if
you're the parent are notteaching these things, somebody
is teaching them.
Nicte-Ha (41:05):
It comes learning it from somewhere, they learn it
from their friends, right?
Both my kids went through this.
That's a boy thing, that's agirl thing.
Even though we had never evertalked about boy things and girl
things, and we pushed back onit, and now there is some nuance
there.
But I do think there is thisperiod where if that kind of
(41:25):
binary thinking gets reinforced,and they're saying, Yes, you
want to be a good boy, or youwant to be a good girl, and that
means that you always listenand you always obey, and you're
enforcing that binary thinkingof good people and bad people.
And if I act this way, I ambad, or I am good, then I think
that that's when you rollforward, and then you're it's
(41:46):
easy for you to say those arejust bad people, and you don't
question why they're easy todehumanize those people, very
easy to do.
Osea (41:53):
It becomes easy to strip their due process and their
right and deport them to tortureprisons.
Yeah, because you just say,Hey, that person doesn't deserve
any shred of decency andhumanity because I have
designated them an official badperson.
Yeah, no, it's a reallyslippery slope, which is why I
feel like it's so important fromthe time kids are very young to
(42:16):
again teach critical reasoning,to teach more complex ways of
accepting the world and notletting them fall into these
logic traps of, like you said,binary reasoning.
That's also why I'm a big fanof like unschooling and and you
know, different types ofpractices that call into
question the way that kids ineducational systems are often
(42:38):
taught more so to be compliantthan they are to think for
themselves.
Nicte-Ha (43:26):
Do you feel like that is something that kind of
evolved naturally from yourexperiences over time?
Do you still work sometimeswith Celtic entities?
Or do you ever use the wordgods, or are you sort of like
all that is not really usefulwhen you're talking about things
in on a spiritual level?
Osea (43:46):
Great question.
I'd I'd say that I well, someentities are just going to have
their own name within a culturebecause it follows the language
of that culture, right?
So when we're talking about,you know, who a Sky Father might
(44:09):
be, right, in the sense of aSky Father, that might have
different names across differenttraditions.
If we're talking about who isthe guardian at the gate of the
dead, right, at the entrance tothe cemetery, who watches over
and has dominion over armies ofdead or the souls of the dead,
(44:30):
like we're talking aboutentities that they have a name,
for example, in Celticpractices, they also have a name
in Afro-Caribbean practices.
And I want to be careful andnot say that they are exactly
the same, right?
Because the beliefs do beardistinctions between them, but
it's it's also prettyinteresting and surprising how
(44:50):
much sometimes they bear incommon.
So I will say that my practicenow and today, if I were to
travel or be in a space thatwould be kind of the dominion of
Celtic entities and deities,then hell yeah, I'm gonna show
respect on that home turf tothem always, right?
(45:13):
That deference because I am intheir world, I am in their
space.
And when I have been in spacesthat still connect back to them
because they are the spaces thatthe diaspora came to, where the
Irish and Celtic diaspora cameto and established themselves,
then again, I go back to like,okay, well, this is also part of
(45:33):
your dominion because yourenergy continues to be here and
preside here.
And everything that I'velearned from those traditions
have certainly helped me innavigating certain worlds that
they more specifically go indepth into.
And the example I'm going touse is the Fey.
So Kelter traditions have a lotto say about the world of the
(45:53):
Fe and how to take caution whenit comes to dealings with the
world of the Fey and what youknow, what the trees teach us,
what the plants and the berriesteach us, or even what man-made
materials like iron have to dowith that world.
So I'm never going to forget,discount, or give less respect
(46:16):
to what I have learned over timein those traditions, like you
were referencing druidictraditions, etc.
That's powerful and helpfulinformation, especially when
you're teaching children andyou're teaching them about these
worlds, and you're teachingthem to be cautious if they can
experience or do experiencethese worlds as being very real.
(46:37):
I will continue to teach mychildren, right?
Those kinds of levels ofawareness.
But I'd say that the majorityof what I work in and with now
tends to be more from the eitherthe Afro-Caribbean practice
from Palo or that which isancestral and Mesoamerican, like
(47:01):
personal to me.
But it's in no way discountingthe importance of what I learned
and was a part of like earlierin my life.
It just I think I also shiftedwhere I moved, shifted
geographically who I'msurrounded by, and that makes a
world of difference.
The more that I am surroundedby diasporic people who are
(47:21):
Afro-Caribbean, is also going toshift who I'm working with and
who I'm talking to and who I'maround, because we also tend to
share that more in common.
So a lot of the practitionersthat are now a part of my family
and a part of my immediacy,they're Afro-Caribbean
practitioners.
So if I were, I don't know,surrounded by Druidic
practitioners in my immediacyand my family and my you know
(47:44):
close circles, then maybe thatwould speak to where I would
continue to be, but I'm not.
So and then as to like thedistinctions you were making,
kind of in hierarchy.
Nicte-Ha (47:55):
I mean well, in hierarchy, maybe the wrong word,
because I don't want to, youknow, like I think that thinking
of a hierarchy of beings is avery like Western European idea
of like there is God over all,and then there's angels
underneath that, right?
So it's like a veryhierarchical view of things.
So not necessarily is therehierarchy, just like, is it
(48:15):
useful for you to talk aboutgods, or is it just sort of the
experience of them?
In my experience, limited as itmight be, they're so big that
it's not really a usefuldistinction to make to call them
gods and distinguish betweenall of them.
Osea (48:33):
It doesn't help.
Well, I'd say that I Iexperience, you know, the
different entities with theirenergetic uniqueness, you know,
and so let me take a step back.
(48:53):
So like in Congo spirituality,you have you have a sky father,
right?
And his name is Sambia orInsambi, right?
And he is referenced ingreetings, he's referenced in a
lot of spiritual teachings thatwhen you're talking about doing
things in light, samby or insambi is referenced, and so
(49:14):
there are even greetings that wehave in the religion that are
basically saying, like, maySambia bless you.
But the religion alsoacknowledges the opposite side,
and not just the dark side, italso recognizes the feminine
side, just as there is a father,just as there is a male force,
there are also female forces, sothere's a sky mother, right?
(49:36):
And she's also super important,she's also acknowledged, it's a
bit different than Abrahamicfaiths that only tended to
acknowledge a male divineentity, and the Kikongol beliefs
involve a sky mother and a skyfather, both.
I'll start there.
They also acknowledge withinthe cosmology uh a force of
(49:58):
darkness, but again, that's notnecessarily to be simplified as
a force of evil, it's wayoversimplifying.
The teachings teach aboutbalance in natural things.
A seed has to remain indarkness for a certain extent of
time before it is prepared as aseed to then grow above ground.
(50:20):
That doesn't make the darknessof the underworld where mycelium
exists bad.
It is a part of its process.
The decay process is not a badthing, even though we associate
it with death.
It is not bad, it is not evil,it is part of life cycles,
right?
So the belief system that thatI engage in when I talk about
(50:45):
Halo beliefs or kikongo beliefs,I'm talking about balance, I'm
talking about natural cycles,I'm talking about ways of seeing
the world in a cosmology wherenature and nature's forces are
all part of this balance.
And so the idea of somethingbeing, I don't know, like
(51:08):
demonic or evil, or like the waythat like some Western
religions want to paint thingsthat are quote unquote darkness.
I'm like, no, that's not a fairassessment.
That sounds like a way ofChristianity trying to wipe out
an indigenous belief.
That sounds like a way ofChristianity trying to scare
people away from their nativebeliefs.
But one of the things thathappened when when Kikongo
(51:32):
beliefs encountered the theCatholic Portuguese is they
tried to say, oh, well, yourinsomnia, that's our Christian
God, right?
But then they wanted to takesome of the other entities that
were believed in and eitherassign them to saints or assign
them to the devil.
(51:52):
And that's like a wayoversimplification of you know
what these were beliefs were.
Zambia is a representation ofeverything, everything that
exists in nature, and thatincludes the dead, but that
doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Like again, it's a very westernbelief to think of the dead as
being like evil and scary and ohmy god, they're gonna harm us
(52:13):
and like all these things.
And I'm like, but you don'tfeel that way about your dead
grandmother who was super sweetand made you cupcakes.
You probably think of your deadgrandmother who you loved with
a lot of endearment, right?
So if you can apply that topeople in your family or people
in your immediacy that you lovedand then passed away, and you
(52:34):
can think of them as still, ifyou can believe that they
continue to exist, think of themas being helpful or protecting
you or watching over you orwatching from heaven or whatever
beliefs you have, you canstretch your belief a bit to
understand that we're allexisting in different dimensions
and planes of existence.
And what what Falo does is itbrings and connects us together
(53:00):
across dimensional planes.
That instead of believing thatwe are eternally separated after
death, no, we don't believethat.
We believe that that deceasedancestors, as an example,
deceased spirits can have arelevance in our existence right
now because we're continuing toexist across planes of
(53:22):
existence and can connect witheach other.
And maybe for some people thatsounds scary, but it doesn't
sound scary to me.
It feels like having a prettycool crew of who looks out for
you and who guides you, and whois there sharing an interest in
your well-being, and sometimesalso who's teaching you hard
(53:43):
lessons, that part too, right?
Speaker (53:46):
But I say it says I rule deep.
I got a deep.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
I rule listen, you ain't never lie.
Yep, I do, and I'm real hypeabout that.
Nicte-Ha (53:58):
There are so many things I could talk about with
you, and I know I would love totalk with you again and dip into
you know your wisdom in thefuture.
But we were talking about whatyou might want to bring out and
talk to people about from yourheart, just to close this out.
Osea (54:15):
Yes.
So I think that there are a lotof folks out there that are in
this in the diasporaspecifically, that are in this
space of like spiritualquestioning where maybe you're
looking for somebody to guideyou, maybe you're looking for a
place to be guided, and some ofus with good intentions spend
(54:36):
our money and our time andenergy knocking on doors that
are not truly gonna assist us.
So, yeah, I'm talking shitabout the five thousand dollar
retreats to Tulum, but alsowhatever that guru-dumb business
model is, you don't need all ofthat.
You need to listen inside, youneed inside yourself, you need
(54:57):
to self-reflect, you need tofind ways of growing in
connection with elders that arepracticing these practices and
demonstrate a level of knowledgeand experience with them, that
they're not trying to hook youin, they're not advertising
their services to try to get amillion god children under them.
(55:18):
They really are just sincere inwhat they do and are willing to
teach and share with you.
And does that sometimes involvemoney and energetic exchange?
Yeah, I mean, like privatetutoring involves money, right?
And elder is not alwaysgrandparent age, sometimes elder
is just somebody that's moreexperienced in a tradition than
you are.
But there are plenty of them orus or however you want to see
(55:42):
it existing in space in ourcommunities, in di spork
communities, that you can findand that you can work with.
You don't have to go on a$10,000 trip halfway across the
world to find this.
You can find this in your owncommunity, in your own backyard,
in people that share identitieswith you.
(56:02):
I think that sometimes it doestake a bit of work, right, to
get to know them and developtrust with them.
But they do exist here, they doexist where we are.
Um and I think also just havinga level of humility is like you
won't know it all in one day,you won't know it all in a week.
If anybody tells you thatthey're lying to you, it takes
(56:24):
practice, understanding, work,observing.
We understood what anapprenticeship was years ago,
right?
And so sometimes being able togrow in these spiritual
practices, especially if we'regoing to talk about closed
traditions in Buddhairia, like,yeah, you're gonna be an
apprentice for a while.
You're gonna be training andlearning under elders for a
while, but that's not a badthing.
(56:44):
That's so you learn to do thesethings responsibly.
So, again, I would justencourage people think carefully
about who is either trying tosell you a promise of spiritual
bypassing because that's not it,right?
Find people that are honest,that are gonna be real with you,
(57:05):
that are willing to tell you toyour face what's up with
honesty.
That's the kind of person youtreasure.
If they have really slickcommercials and social media
presence, think about thatbecause some of the best elders,
Palerinos, Mailerinas, peoplethat I've met in these
(57:26):
traditions, they're busy doingthe work.
And they're busy just living agreat life with their family.
The the the proof, so to speak,is in the type of peace that
they experience as a human.
If they're terrified of youhaving other spiritual friends
or having other spiritual eldersor having other spiritual, you
know, cousins or whatever youwant to call all of us that are
(57:48):
friends with each other, thatshould also be a red flag of a
narcissistic relationship.
So, in the same ways that youwould avoid a toxic relationship
that is romantic, just becareful in spiritual practice to
also avoid those types of toxicrelationships to try to be
controlling of you.
Trust yourself, trust thatsometimes you will feel like you
(58:08):
know nothing and that you havea lot to grow, and that's okay.
But trust your gut instinctthat when somebody feels like
they are overselling you ortrying to control you or trying
to manipulate you, listen tothat voice inside that's like,
let me step back from this.
Because it is really importantthat the people that you
ultimately do grow with inspiritual caminos are also
(58:33):
mature people, are also peoplethat their energy is going to
bring positivity to your life,going to bring balance, and
going to bring a form ofevolution and development.
Folks are out here that knowhow to act right and have trust
that they don't have to be allshiny selling $10,000 packages
abroad.
You can find them here, butit's a matter of recognizing
(58:55):
their worth and recognizing whatthey have to teach you.
Nicte-Ha (58:59):
Thank you, Osea, for teaching us all and for sharing
your wisdom.
And just so much gratitude forbeing a part of this and for
being willing to be on mypodcast and talk about all of
this.
Because I think we did somedeep work.
And I'm I'm excited.
I'm excited for people to hearour conversation and to hear
(59:20):
what you have to say in your inyour perspective because this
was exactly what I wanted tobring in my podcast to other
people who have been like me andfelt out of place and a little
bit at sea.
And I think that your words andyour wisdom bring a sense of
hope and purpose and directionfor other people, for me.
(59:45):
So thank you so much.
Osea (59:47):
That's so nice to hear.
It's true.
Sambia Kutare, may Sambia blessand look over you.
Nicte-Ha (59:55):
Thank you, Chica.
This marks the end of ourthree-part series with Osea,
Bruja, and Curandera.
When I did a card shuffle fortoday's posting, I got Tonatio,
the Sun.
According to this deck, the sunrepresents the ending and the
beginning of a cycle, whichseems appropriate.
(01:00:15):
The sun is warmth, light, lifegiving, like the words that we
have from Osea.
So if you like what you'veheard, follow and share this
podcast for more interviews withartists, spiritual seekers,
thinkers, healers, and otherfolks on this long strange
camino with us.
Plasakamati
So you know, for people out there who might not
be familiar with curanderismo,there's no like central colegia
de curanderismo, there is nodiploma, there is no star that
says you've graduated and nowyou're a curandero or a
curandera.
Did you train with people?
(00:20):
Did you find them?
How did you find people totrain with?
Did you just read?
Was it meditation?
Kind of what how did yourlearning and your path grow over
the years?
And I realize it's a very largequestion.
So take your time with thatone.
Osea (00:36):
My experience has been people find me as opposed to the
other way around.
And if I am open to assistingand supporting people and being
open about who I am, that openeddoors for them to share who
they are and what they know withme.
And so, by the nature of just,you know, the type of work I do
in activism, the type of work Ido in community, I just ended up
(01:00):
meeting people.
You know, one thing leads toanother.
I get close or we get close,and then we open up and they're
willing to show me things.
And and not everything has comefrom people that are from
exclusively Mexico, right?
Like curanderismo, you see itin Mesoamerica in general.
So one of the greatest guidesthat I ever had in curanderismo
(01:22):
is actually Nicaraguan.
She's, you know, someone Iconsider an auntie.
And there's a lot that sheshowed me, right?
Has has it also involved goingback to Mexico?
Has it also involved going backto other places in Latin
America and learning from folks?
Yes, 100%.
There are also people that arecuranderas in Puerto Rico,
(01:42):
right?
There are also people that arecuranderas in the Caribbean in
general.
So it's not a term that islimited to being Mexican or of
Mexican ancestry.
Like it is a term that canencapsulate all kinds of
medicinal and well-beingpractices that are that have an
indigenous history, that in somecases were brought into the
(02:03):
Mesti Sahi and continue to existin Latin America.
My exposure has been primarilywith people who are
Mesoamerican, Central American,and Caribbean peoples, and
mostly women that shared with metheir practices, which I'm
super grateful for.
And then I'd say to someextent, because I just also tend
(02:23):
to be cerebral, I would justlook for all kinds of like books
and guides to learn plants,particularly.
So there's a lot that you learnfrom hands-on practice for
sure.
But there there would be like alot of guides that I would
download, get PDFs.
Some of them were actuallypublished by universities in
Mexico, which is wild when youthink about this.
(02:44):
That like universityresearchers were compiling this,
but like, you know, UNAM, shoutout to UNAM, the Universidad
Autona May Mexico, because theirdepartments have put a lot of
work into the preservation ofindigenous knowledge and the use
of medicinal plants that arenative to Mexico.
And so there are a lot of textsthat I downloaded that went in
(03:06):
depth into like the use bydifferent tribes of different
plants for medicinal and evenspiritual purposes.
And that is just some coolshit.
Like, you know, when I've hadthe opportunity to like sit down
and read.
Obviously, most of that was inSpanish.
One thing that I am veryhesitant to do, uh, and it goes
back to this earlierconversation we had about
spiritual bypassing and thecommercialization and extraction
(03:30):
that happened by Westerners ofindigenous practice for the
purpose of profit.
Like, I am very, very wary ofpaying a European person or
paying a person who is not ofyou know indigenous or mestizafe
descent to train or teachthings that are native to our
(03:55):
people and native to nativepeople.
I know that they exist, I knowthat there are these several
thousand dollar shabaniccurandero come get your
certificate and your gold starat a retreat in Tulum for a
weekend, and I don't fuck withany of that.
That is not it.
I fuck with the Thias that arein their homes for 30, 40, 50,
(04:21):
60 years cooking up what they'vebeen cooking up and are willing
to show me in their kitchen,like what it is that they use
and what it is that they do.
Like that to me is where thatknowledge really resides is it's
an ancestral wisdom, it's inregular people that have held on
to these traditions and arepassing them down in their
(04:42):
families and they're passingthem down to people that are
willing to listen.
I've been very hesitant to gointo spaces that are remotely
commercialized.
I don't trust them.
I'm just gonna be honest,right?
I trust what the tías and theabuelas are willing to share
with me.
And abuelos, like every now andthen there are abuelos that
also will show some of thethings that they do because I
(05:05):
have a sharp resistance to theway that this has been
distilled, commercialized forcapitalistic purposes.
What are they doing or havethey done to give back to the
communities where thesepractices originated?
One need only look at maybe thecase study of what happened to
um María Sabina in Oaxaca, whoshared her knowledge of
(05:28):
medicinal mushrooms and manyother plants.
If there ever was a cautionarytale for what comes out of
sharing your knowledge in a waythat allows it to be
commercialized, capitalizedupon, and just how that leads to
a shit show for a nativecommunity, the story of Maria
(05:49):
Sabina is is is an incrediblecautionary tale.
Nicte-Ha (05:53):
Do you feel like if you have a curandera or
curandera who is charging forservices?
Right.
Obviously, there's a differencebetween the $5,000 shamanic
retreat at Tulum and thensomebody who's a practitioner,
you know.
Osea (06:10):
I mean, you're paying for their time, their knowledge,
their experience, and theirenergy.
So it's energetic exchange.
It would be wholly uncool foryou to take up somebody's time,
energy, resource, knowledge,take advantage of them for a
couple of hours, and be like,cool, thanks.
Right?
If that person's not like yourimmediate family member or
(06:32):
somebody you have like a reallyloving relationship with, that
just seems fucked up.
That's like telling somebody tocome fix your roof.
The roofer works for 10 hours,and you're like, listen, I
appreciate you, it's all vibes.
Nicte-Ha (06:45):
Like so the distinction is if somebody is if
it's commercialization, if it'sperformative, but if you're
actually genuinely working,which kind of the distinction
happens maybe with thepractitioner themselves.
For example, my experience,right, could have been very much
performative.
Like it was part of like apackage tour deal to Bali,
(07:07):
right?
It was like my day of wellness,okay?
And I got real sarcastic aboutit.
And then, like I said, itkicked my ass.
Osea (07:15):
Who did it to you, a native to the place?
Yes.
Was a person who did it to you,somebody that came up in the
tradition.
Nicte-Ha (07:21):
Oh, yes.
Osea (07:22):
Okay, well, like, shout out to them.
Speaker (07:25):
And he was and he's been doing this for a very long
time, and he got very well paidfor his work, and then that that
to me is the as he should.
Osea (07:36):
Okay.
You told me that it was someguy named Steve who, you know,
did a retreat for for a weekendand is like, yeah, I'm a
motherfucking Balinese shamannow.
Um, you know, and Steve is justplying people with
hallucinogens and mangoes.
Nicte-Ha (07:52):
Oh no, there were no hallucinogens involved, although
honestly, I it would have beenmore understandable.
I see your point.
I see your point.
Yes, yes.
I just wanted to make thatdistinction clear because I feel
like some people will be like,oh, well, then that means that
you know, people shouldn'tcharge me for the spiritual
healing or for this or for thisritual.
Osea (08:09):
Listen, it's energetic exchange.
In Buru Hiria, we call itlicencia.
You pay your license, right?
Because if you don't, it'sgoing to be sucked out of you.
That's the part that is like,all right, listen, man, you're
paying your energetic exchangebecause otherwise I could just
tap this out of you, right?
And dry you up to charge youfor it in different ways.
(08:32):
So if you don't want to paywith your life force, then maybe
you should pay with some otherthing, an energetic exchange.
So, yeah, I think that that'sthe point that I'm making with
anybody that wants to do, let'ssay, shamanic healing practices.
I just, you know, use somediscernment.
Like I said, if the person isclaiming to practice a practice
(08:55):
that is not of their heritage,that's not a place where they
have, you know, or it's not atradition that they have spent
an extensive amount of time in,that they have been embedded in,
you know what I'm saying, thatthey have some humility around,
that if you get any of those,like, mm-hmm, this sounds like a
colonizer vibes, then it'sprobably a colonizer, and you're
(09:19):
gonna get a very differentexperience.
And I'm not saying that peoplefrom the place or that people
from sort of the points oforigins don't take advantage of
people, they absolutely fuckingdo, they take advantage of their
ignorance, and some peoplemight think of that as being
reparations.
So I'm not here to shit ontheir game either.
(09:41):
I'm just saying usediscernment, be mindful.
If somebody sounds likeappealing to you because they
look and sound a little bit toomuch like you as an outsider to
the culture, and you're like,oh, but I'm an American, and
this guy's an American, but he'sin whatever the fuck place, but
(10:02):
he's in Tulum, but like hespeaks English and like he's
from California, and you know,like we really just vibe.
Um, so go get coffee.
But maybe that's not theperson, you know what I mean?
Nicte-Ha (10:16):
That's that impression was way too on point, girl.
That was that impression wasway too on point.
Listen, I I'd be fucking I feelattacked, honestly, as a
Californian.
I feel attacked who's been toBurning Man, I feel attacked.
Osea (10:32):
Listen, I here's one thing I'm gonna take responsibility
for.
I will take responsibility forhaving been in like spiritual
retreat spaces, um, and justfucking them all up.
For for the purpose of liketruth, like for the purpose of
honesty, you know.
So let's spice this up a littleand and just inject a little
(10:53):
bit of honesty into thissituation.
Um, and maybe some muertos.
I don't know.
You know, let's make it aparty, like for realsies though.
It's like, oh, we're gonna wewe're gonna call this shamanism,
like check this shit out.
I want my beer.
And yeah, not everybody'sready.
Nicte-Ha (11:09):
In fact, hold my beer and pour some out because los
muertos.
Listen, they're thirsty.
Osea (11:15):
It's about to get it's about to get live.
And so I've been in those typeof situations where you know the
people that organized thosetype of events ended up hiding
in a stairwell, deeplyuncomfortable.
Because some of them just plypeople with hallucinogens that
(11:35):
make them more pliable toinfluence, and then what they
create is more or less apsychological victim that that
person begins to associate theeuphoria of what they experience
on the hallucinogen with thepractitioner, and so they just
go, Oh my god, like everythingis difficult in my life.
I just need to go to thisperson.
And because that person isplying them with a hallucinogen,
(11:57):
which by the way, many of themare 100% legal, like plant
medicine is extensive, doesn'tonly include the ones that are
like classified as controlledsubstances.
There are lots of plants outthere and other types of
ingestibles that can give you aeuphoric experience.
And there are plenty of peopleout here that are aware of that,
and they are doing some realspiritual bypassing, charging
(12:22):
people money, calling it ritual,calling it, you know, sacred
whatever medicine.
And what they're doing isthey're creating a bunch of
people that are chained to them,energetically chained to them
psychologically, becausesomebody has never experienced
that before.
They now think that that personis the guru and is the answer
(12:43):
instead of really lookinginwardly and questioning their
own thoughts, processes, andbehaviors.
Healing and growth is notalways easy, it's not always
comfortable, but I firmlybelieve it always involves you.
It's not something that we puton the pedestal of somebody
else's lap and go, I need you tofix me.
(13:04):
Right?
Like you need to fix you.
Now, is it totally reasonableto engage in more people to help
you fix you?
Yeah, wow, a bunch of us areout here.
You know what I'm saying?
Because guidance is always animportant thing, especially for
those of us that come fromtraditions that believe in
collective wisdom and collectivewell-being.
(13:26):
You go to the collective tohelp support your well-being and
you contribute to collectivewell-being.
We're not out here in this,like, you know, American or
rugged individualism likementality of wellness.
We believe that the collectiveis part of what supports our
well-being, and we support thewell-being of the collective,
right?
And there are too many folks inhealing spaces.
(13:52):
I'm like throwing up air quoteshere, that you know, they want
to, they want to disconnect thepractices from that
understanding.
They want to make itindividualistic, they want to
make it so that, like, no,you're only gonna get here
through my 12-step program,you're only gonna get here
through my retreat, you're onlygonna get here through this.
Speaker (14:12):
By my notebook, here's here's a coaster and an
inspirational poster.
Right.
And this just patently false.
Osea (14:44):
Anybody who is secure in what they do is not gonna lash
out at you if you want toexplore other options, if you
want to dive into thingsyourself, they can counsel you,
they can advise you, they cantell you what the pros and cons
might be of you trying somethingdifferent.
Sometimes people maybe in anattempt to spiritually bypass,
(15:07):
they go get a consulta with onetype of practitioner.
They don't like what thepractitioner says, so then they
go to a different type ofpractitioner and then a third
practitioner and then a fourthpractitioner.
And I'm like, okay, be carefulthat this does not lead you to
spiritual psychosis when you'reinvolving this many entities.
Be mindful of why you're soquick to reject what one
(15:33):
practitioner has said.
Is it that you're just lookingfor somebody to tell you that
you don't have to do thingsdifferently?
Everything you've gotta you'vegotta approach it from a
position of discernment.
That sometimes a practitioneris gonna be really real with you
and they're gonna tell yousomething that makes you
uncomfortable, and they're gonnatell you something about
yourself that feelsuncomfortable to have to deal
with that truth, and it feelsuncomfortable to have to change
(15:54):
that truth.
But if what you do is like,well, let me bounce around to
three or four otherpractitioners to see if they
tell me something nice about me,they like validate everything
that I'm doing and don't tell meto change, that is not
necessarily the answer.
I think that every situation isdifferent.
I'm not a fan of practitionersthat go and tell a person, oh my
god, so many people are cursingyou, and I need like a thousand
(16:16):
dollars to like buy a millioncrystals and all these herbs.
And if you don't do this, likestarting this weekend, your dog
is gonna die.
But it exists and people fallfor it.
The chicanery is real, right?
So I don't know.
Nicte-Ha (16:34):
Honestly, that's been my my hesitancy.
I've been interested.
The people I know who do thiskind of thing, like my mom, for
example.
My mom only does this kind ofthing when she's directly asked.
And she doesn't, as far as Iknow, take any money for it.
And it is only when somebodyapproaches her and asks her for
(16:57):
specifically for work.
Or I sometimes ask her for goodweather because she always
delivers.
I don't know how.
Osea (17:07):
I love that for you guys.
Nicte-Ha (17:09):
I did it one time, girl.
Let me tell you what happened.
It was at Obama's inauguration,and I told my mom, I was like,
it's gotta be good weathertomorrow.
She was like, okay.
She was like, well, let's dothis.
What do you want?
And I said, I want it to beclear, and I want it to be what
did I say?
I wanted it to be sunny and Iwanted it to be clear.
(17:32):
She was like, that's it.
And I was like, yeah, I thinkthat's it.
I just, you know, I don't wantit to rain and I want it to be
sunny.
She was like, okay.
So it was clear, it was sunny,and it was a high of eight
degrees.
Osea (17:47):
So I almost gave myself for contact for the faces with
my hands.
And I'm like, well.
She's like, boy, you you gotwhat you're guys.
That's why I say, like, youknow, this is why when you when
you do a consulta, man, yougotta be real specific with your
(18:08):
asks and your questions.
Because, you know, there's alot of like really beautiful,
let's say, trickster entityenergies out there that are
like, oh, that's what you want.
I got you.
That is exactly what you'regonna get.
And then afterwards, you'relike, fuck my life.
Why didn't I why didn't Ithink?
Nicte-Ha (18:30):
So my specify.
My one more story.
My brother and sister-in-lawwere getting married.
Summer.
I was invited, it was the firsttime I was meeting Andrew's
family.
Call my mom.
The weather report was notauspicious because it was like
the south and it was July, so itwas gonna be hot and rainy, and
(18:50):
it was just not looking good.
So I said, Hey mom, can youhelp me out?
And she said, sure.
There were multiple tornadoesin the area that night, none of
them came anywhere near where wewere.
Every single hotel in the citywe were in lost power except for
(19:12):
the wedding parties hotel.
It didn't rain until after thewedding was over and everyone
was back at the hotel.
Osea (19:20):
And I was like, Okay, thanks, Mom! I hope she got like
a lot of rest and soup and likewarm blanket rest after doing
some work like that.
And I only say it becausewhenever you're working, at
least in my path, right?
Whenever you're working withnatural elements, like natural
(19:45):
elements are just and we're likepew and they're like and so
when you're working to let's saysynchronize natural elements in
the favorite direction that youwant them to move in, like
sometimes that's even harderthan dealing with people because
natural elements are like bigboom energy, right?
(20:06):
So I just hope that mommy gotlots of hugs and naps and soups
and after whatever all that was,because sinking and bending,
you know, you've seen Avatar,right?
Like Avatar is freaking cooland also in some ways spot on.
It's like if you're sinking andmoving energy for like wind,
(20:26):
water, etc.
unknown (20:30):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Channeling that kind of energy is a lot.
It's a lot.
Shout out to the druids.
It's they've been doing it forwarfare, but uh, it's a lot.
Nicte-Ha (20:41):
Yeah.
No, my mom's got an amazingstory about she's gonna be on
this podcast.
I'm gonna invite her to talkabout her journey because she's
got a very interesting storyabout multiple interactions that
I think are just interesting.
I don't know, interesting issuch a lame word.
I want to tell the storybecause I want you to hear the
(21:03):
story.
And but I feel like it's Iprobably should just let her
tell the story first.
Osea (21:08):
Your mom is very cool.
She's a very, very, very coolhuman being.
Nicte-Ha (21:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the problem is that when I Iparticipated in this cura with
her, but like she's like, Ican't really teach you what I do
because I don't really do it.
She's like, I just ask.
And I was like, anyone inspecific?
(21:35):
She's like, I mean, I have abook that like the curandera
that our family worked with gaveme.
And I say these prayers, andthat's what I do when somebody
asks me for a cuda.
Osea (21:49):
I love that for her.
Nicte-Ha (21:51):
And I was like, okay.
Osea (21:53):
Noticed that a $5,000 retreat to Tulum was not
involved.
Nicte-Ha (21:58):
No, no.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
But but there were some kind of that type.
Nicte-Ha (22:04):
It was yes, and her initiation was not, it was.
I just want you to hear herstory in person as she tells it.
But I, yeah, it's one of thosethings where I was
participating, and I could not,for the life of me, if you were
like, I want this.
It was me and my sister and mymom, and we were doing a quuda
for my close relative, and itwas an incredibly powerful
(22:29):
experience.
You know, could I do it?
Probably not, but I don't haveher experience, right?
But it was also one of thosethings where it's like, I don't
think there's no script for it.
There's no she has the littlebook and she has the prayers,
but the but that's just such asmall part of it.
So I think I've just alwaysbeen intrigued, you know, by how
(22:54):
people come to this and do itand have confidence in it.
Right.
Osea (23:00):
I mean, think I think it can take a lot of different
twists and turns.
It's all, I mean, I am abeliever, and it all goes back
to Source, right?
And that Source is also havingthe most cool, most fun video
game experience with all of us.
We're all so thoroughlyentertaining.
We are like the coolest versionof The Sims, right?
(23:24):
So I am I'm a big believer inthat ultimately you can all tie
it back to Source.
It's all going so you you canapproach this from a lot of
different angles and it's gonnawork, right?
You don't have to work with aspecific entity, you don't have
to work with a specificdivinity, right?
Like there've been so many warsfought on this planet over
(23:45):
religions and whose gods arestronger, and you know, who the
true god is, or who and I'mlike, We're like Sims, we're so
entertaining.
If you were to look at us fromspace, you would just see this
really cool massive planet fullof water and clouds and land and
be like, are they seriouslyfighting over what to call their
(24:07):
gods?
It sounds like little kidsplaying with G.I.
Joes being like, my G.I.
Joe is stronger than yours is.
It just sounds a little absurd,right?
That we kill people and wedestroy nations over this.
Nicte-Ha (24:22):
Well, and the fact that the fact that they think
the creator of the universe, ifthere is a creator, which I
don't whatever, the fact theythink their creator of the
universe, who created thehorseshoe nebula that's like
millions of light years across,create all the infinite space,
and hydrogen and suns gives ashit whether or not you have sex
(24:45):
with whoever, or that you'rewearing underwear of a certain
like it's just bizarre to me.
Osea (24:54):
It is very bizarre to me, too.
I'm like, do you really thinkthat that which created all the
beauty and complexity ofexistence was like, yo, but let
me be petty though?
Like on the seventh day, let mebe petty, you know, in in the
particular belief systems that Ifollow.
There's a belief in overarchingmega mega source energy, and
(25:17):
then energies that are not asbig as that one, but have a
little more personality in termsof like being more like us, and
ones that have also naturalaffinities, right?
Energies that represent naturalelements, and they have names,
and one could even argue theyhave personalities, and I do
(25:39):
think that that is because humanbeings give anthropomorphic
characteristics to things, andthat we tend to affinity
ourselves with what matches ourown humanity.
I'm sure that the Greek godswere a vibe because they also
just exhibited so many elementsof human nature, right?
(26:01):
And that can be said about thethe divinities and the deities
that exist in a lot of differentworld belief systems, is that
we are seeing ourselves inarchetypes, we are seeing
ourselves in these pantheons, weare seeing the best and the
worst and the interesting ofhumanity and the lessons that
they teach.
And I personally, you know,anthropological perspective,
(26:24):
think that is so freaking cool.
Do you think that's so cool?
Nicte-Ha (26:27):
Speaking of that, I've seen in the last 20 years this
increasing interest, andunfortunately in many places
it's tied in with nationalismand in some cases white
supremacy, but this increasinginterest in native religion
revival.
So there's, you know, Greekrevivalists who are re-engaging
(26:48):
with the Greek gods.
There are Norse pagans, many ofwhom are fighting.
I want to just be clear,they're fighting very actively
against nationalism and whitesupremacy in their movement.
Uh, there's also EasternEuropean pagan revivalism, and a
lot of these seem to go hand inhand with a nationalist,
(27:09):
racialized view.
And so I'm just wondering, youknow, do you think that Latin
American spirituality, you know,because I know there's like
there's also Aztech revivalism,you know, Dansa Azteca has
really expanded from just sortof like a cultural art form into
its own religious practice,right?
And so in general, I I thinkit's it's very interesting to
(27:31):
see people moving away fromChristianity, away from from
that movement, and looking attheir religious traditions, but
at the same time, you know, I amdisturbed by the links in many
of these movements withnationalism and with exclusion
and a reliance on geneticpurity.
Osea (27:51):
Right.
I mean, I'll think about itlike this to what degree are you
celebrating and exploringheritage that was stamped out by
colonialism and trying tocreate a hegemony around power,
colonialism, capitalism, etc.
Okay, like I'm down forwhatever is saying, no, no, no,
(28:14):
no, we're gonna go back andreclaim what has been, you know,
natively ours and traditionallyours before these systems came
and erased culture and historyand practices and views, which
they did, right?
That's the history of theempires, is how the empires
colonized and conquered eachother and tried to erase the
(28:34):
practice and existence of whatall came before them.
Okay, so the degree to whichwhat you're doing is, as you're
saying, reviving what isbeautiful and meaningful and
powerful, and you know, tracksback in our our DNA and our
ancestors.
Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
All right, you want to do itfor the new world version of
(28:57):
further conquest, furtherimperialism, further
colonialistic interest, fuck allthat.
No, it's not for fascism.
Okay, thanks, bye.
So I think that that is where Idraw that line is if what you
are doing is again buildingcommunity, building collective
awareness, building collectivecollaboration and cooperation in
(29:18):
healthy and balanced ways, thatsounds dope as fuck.
If you're doing it to then justgive yourself an excuse to, you
know, get together with theboys for fascism, but you want
to call it, but you want to callit, you know, some type of
spiritual tradition, I thinkthat's where we have to draw the
(29:38):
line, right?
Is this leading towardsfascism?
Is it leading towards, youknow, further imperialism and
colonialism and xenophobia?
Or is it leading to balancewithin the collective?
Right.
And you're gonna get a lot ofdisagreement, even like, you
know, there's no such thing asLatin American spirituality,
there's no such thing as likeLatin American.
(29:59):
Poof.
Latin America exists as aconcept because the Spanish came
and colonized a bunch of very,very, very different people,
very, very, very differentcultures, and then put them
under the banner of the SpanishEmpire.
And then in the course of theyears, they just went to rip off
that yoke and you know claimback their independent yet
(30:24):
mysticized cultures because theywere not living in vacuums.
The Taínos were travelingbetween the Caribbean and the
Mexican peninsula.
Nicte-Ha (30:34):
Yeah, but I also I'm not sure.
I mean, like the the you know,the rebellions against Spain and
the independence movements in alot of countries in what we
call Latin America.
Thank you for the gentlecorrection.
But a lot of the countries thatwe call Latin America, you
know, there were movements thatwere driven by and involved
(30:55):
indigenous leaders andcommunities and the oppressed,
enslaved people, black people.
And there are also lots of themthat were led by primarily
white European landowners whodid not want the criollos wanted
to keep their own power andthey didn't want to give it to
the enslaved, the indigenous.
(31:17):
They wanted to take it fromSpain.
Why do I have to give you mymoney?
I want to keep it all.
And so it's interesting.
I read a book about Alexandervon Humboldt's amazing book
called The Invention of Nature.
Everyone should read this book.
Anyways, he was a friend withmy god Bolivar.
(31:38):
I was about to listen, I wasabout to go down the road.
He was friends with Bolivar,and he told Bolivar, he said,
racism and class is a problem,and it is going to fuck you up.
If you if you seek independencenow without fixing that shit,
you're gonna fuck it up.
(31:59):
And Bolivar ignored him.
Osea (32:03):
Promises were made.
Promises were made.
Nicte-Ha (32:05):
And they were not kept, and it created so many
problems rolling forward.
So it's interesting.
I mean, I I agree that to agreater extent than the United
States, by far, countries inwhat we call Latin America have
involved and had indigenous andmestizo people at every level of
(32:27):
government and and the powerstructure.
And the power structure thoughremains white, you know, up
until like very recently.
I mean, and you even have likeone of the weird things is like
looking at South America andlooking at Uruguay and being
like, nobody ever talks aboutthis place.
And then you're like, that'sbecause they genocided all of
(32:50):
the indigenous people in thisarea, and everyone who lives
here is European descended.
And then people are like, oh,well, they're the most, you
know, they're the most uh stablecountry in South America
because nobody talks about them.
And I'm like, so they had themost successful genocide on the
continent.
It's astonishing.
Osea (33:14):
When I'm sitting here, you know, not responding, I'm like,
because I'm just sipping mytea.
Speaker (33:18):
I know.
Osea (33:19):
Like, I'm just sipping my tea on all of that.
Like, the the one only needs tolook to Haiti to see how much
it threatens the hegemony blackpeople and brown people and
indigenous people be riling upand and are coming into their
(33:42):
own stability and successwithout the need of whiteness,
without the need of colonialism,without the need of, and
they're like, no, we will buryyou, we will bury you in debt,
we will bury you in the world.
Nicte-Ha (33:56):
We will spend 400 years cutting you off from any
access to capital, assistance,partnership, development.
We will go after that's theamazing thing is that they have
gone after Haiti so hard.
Osea (34:13):
Listen, the purposeful destabilization is real, and
it's not just Haiti.
You can look at this in theAfrican continent with France,
you know what I'm saying?
With the Dutch, with Israelnow, right?
Like it's it's not just astandalone one-off with Haiti,
unfortunately, you know, andthere are some countries that
are adamantly taking a standagainst that and booting out all
(34:38):
of this influence thatcontinues to try to control and
destabilize them, right?
And keep them from havingautonomy over their own
development.
You see that in just likecountries that want to shake off
the frunk, right?
It's it's a frunk that's usedin West Africa, but there are
there are countries right nowthat are like, no, fuck all
this.
We're gonna go back to our owncurrency.
(35:00):
So, you know, again, it's likeso many different podcasts and
episodes could come out ofthese.
Nicte-Ha (35:07):
This is why we need to have our own podcast, girl.
We need to get on and justtalk.
You realize that now I amrunning at three hours of
footage, just us talking.
This is gonna be like asix-part series at this point.
Yep.
Yep.
Osea (35:23):
You know, I mean, this is what we can have people call in.
Give them a give them thetalking to of all this shit that
I miss from college, to behonest.
It's like I can go into thesedeep dives for fun all the time.
But in, you know, in my in myreal world life, there are
definitely moments where ourfriends are like, yo, you're
(35:44):
doing the most right now.
Like, you're thank you for theTED talk, but like, I just I
just wanted to hear about thisone thing.
I just wanted an answer to thisone question.
And thank you for going into adeep dive of like the history
and the politics of X situation.
And I'm like, yeah, my bad.
Nicte-Ha (36:02):
That's me all the time with everything.
This poor woman asked me aquestion at a birthday party
about school lottery, and Italked for 20 minutes about like
the process and why and whichand how, and she got this look
on her face, and I was like, Ohno! And I went to my husband and
(36:25):
I said, Honey, do I just liketalk at people?
He's like, Well, maybe youcould just ask like more
questions, and I was like, Butpeople, they ask questions, and
then there's an answer, butthere's like context that you
need for the answer that theyneed to hear all of it.
Osea (36:45):
I tell you, and this is also, you know, like the teacher
in me, the educator in me isthat like my conclusion for this
is like I just need to.
I've been working onplatforming a lot of these, you
know, TED talks about thesedifferent topics, just so I can
preserve them for kids, so I canpreserve them for young people,
so this information that willprobably be, if not already,
(37:06):
banned.
Nicte-Ha (37:08):
Dude, I actually considered starting a list and
ordering books, but I'm like,these books are gonna disappear.
unknown (37:15):
Yep.
Osea (37:16):
These books are going to get disappeared, they're going
to be banned not directly, butsuddenly they're gonna be
unavailable.
Amazon can't send them to you,blah, blah, blah.
Right.
So, my my plan is to preserve alot of these histories, issues,
discussions, challenges, um, indigital format so that the kids
(37:39):
and young people of the futurehave access to it because
they're going after highereducation, right?
They're going after trying toexercise control on K-12
education, exercise control overuniversity education.
They want to audit every singleunit, they want to audit every
single course, they want to havecontrol over what can and can't
(38:00):
be said, what can and can't betaught, what can and can't be
questioned.
And I'm like, oh, preserve allof it, preserve all of it so
that our children, ourchildren's children can have
these kind of conversations, canhave these kind of debates, can
have these kind ofopportunities to, you know, to
(38:20):
again to practice discernment,to exercise their, you know,
problem solving and criticalreasoning skills.
Because that is the sincereworry that I have that, you
know, all the cool spiritualtalk aside, like part of what
being a guerrera means to me islike being a guerrera for my
children's future, for thefuture of children, to preserve
(38:41):
the integrity of them being ableto question the world around
them, for them being able tohear different sides of a story,
to not buy the safely packagedpropagandized version of what
they are taught or what they seearound them or what they see in
digital space, right?
That sometimes becomes an echochamber for certain
perspectives.
(39:02):
It's very important to me topreserve the integrity of
critical reasoning andrecognizing that you know when
people want to paint, that therewas a villain and there was a
hero in history, there'sprobably more to that story,
right?
To the victor goes the spoilsmore often than not, and to the
victor goes telling the story inperpetuity, which is often
(39:24):
maybe not the whole story.
And so I think that that issomething that I I value
heavily.
Again, going back to theseideas of balance and justice, is
that you know, what we're doingright now, that that can
continue to exist, that thatwill not be disappeared along
with everything else that theywant to plunge into darkness.
Nicte-Ha (39:47):
I mean, it starts early too, you know, talk about
good guys and bad guys and goodwords and bad words.
And I told my kids today, Isaid, there are no bad words
except the ones you use to hurtother people.
And that's using your words ina way to cause injury.
Right?
There are impolite words, thereare words that have a lot of
(40:09):
bad history to them, there arewords, there's lots of these
things, right?
But you're not just because yousaid, oh shit, that's not a bad
word.
Is it impolite, out of used outof context, maybe not
appropriate?
Fine.
Do you maybe want to reserveyour swearing for situations
that call that need thatemphasis?
That's fine.
(40:29):
I'm not gonna call them badwords.
And then the other day mydaughter said something about
bad guys and going to jail, andI said, Well, I was like, how do
you know who the bad guys are?
And she was like, Well, they'rethe people that that break the
law.
And I'm like, Well, but whomakes the law?
(40:50):
Right?
Osea (40:52):
And so it's wild how kids get conditioned to think these
things when we're not the onesthat teach them that, right?
This is one of my huge concernsin education is that even if
you're the parent are notteaching these things, somebody
is teaching them.
Nicte-Ha (41:05):
It comes learning it from somewhere, they learn it
from their friends, right?
Both my kids went through this.
That's a boy thing, that's agirl thing.
Even though we had never evertalked about boy things and girl
things, and we pushed back onit, and now there is some nuance
there.
But I do think there is thisperiod where if that kind of
(41:25):
binary thinking gets reinforced,and they're saying, Yes, you
want to be a good boy, or youwant to be a good girl, and that
means that you always listenand you always obey, and you're
enforcing that binary thinkingof good people and bad people.
And if I act this way, I ambad, or I am good, then I think
that that's when you rollforward, and then you're it's
(41:46):
easy for you to say those arejust bad people, and you don't
question why they're easy todehumanize those people, very
easy to do.
Osea (41:53):
It becomes easy to strip their due process and their
right and deport them to tortureprisons.
Yeah, because you just say,Hey, that person doesn't deserve
any shred of decency andhumanity because I have
designated them an official badperson.
Yeah, no, it's a reallyslippery slope, which is why I
feel like it's so important fromthe time kids are very young to
(42:16):
again teach critical reasoning,to teach more complex ways of
accepting the world and notletting them fall into these
logic traps of, like you said,binary reasoning.
That's also why I'm a big fanof like unschooling and and you
know, different types ofpractices that call into
question the way that kids ineducational systems are often
(42:38):
taught more so to be compliantthan they are to think for
themselves.
Nicte-Ha (43:26):
Do you feel like that is something that kind of
evolved naturally from yourexperiences over time?
Do you still work sometimeswith Celtic entities?
Or do you ever use the wordgods, or are you sort of like
all that is not really usefulwhen you're talking about things
in on a spiritual level?
Osea (43:46):
Great question.
I'd I'd say that I well, someentities are just going to have
their own name within a culturebecause it follows the language
of that culture, right?
So when we're talking about,you know, who a Sky Father might
(44:09):
be, right, in the sense of aSky Father, that might have
different names across differenttraditions.
If we're talking about who isthe guardian at the gate of the
dead, right, at the entrance tothe cemetery, who watches over
and has dominion over armies ofdead or the souls of the dead,
(44:30):
like we're talking aboutentities that they have a name,
for example, in Celticpractices, they also have a name
in Afro-Caribbean practices.
And I want to be careful andnot say that they are exactly
the same, right?
Because the beliefs do beardistinctions between them, but
it's it's also prettyinteresting and surprising how
(44:50):
much sometimes they bear incommon.
So I will say that my practicenow and today, if I were to
travel or be in a space thatwould be kind of the dominion of
Celtic entities and deities,then hell yeah, I'm gonna show
respect on that home turf tothem always, right?
(45:13):
That deference because I am intheir world, I am in their
space.
And when I have been in spacesthat still connect back to them
because they are the spaces thatthe diaspora came to, where the
Irish and Celtic diaspora cameto and established themselves,
then again, I go back to like,okay, well, this is also part of
(45:33):
your dominion because yourenergy continues to be here and
preside here.
And everything that I'velearned from those traditions
have certainly helped me innavigating certain worlds that
they more specifically go indepth into.
And the example I'm going touse is the Fey.
So Kelter traditions have a lotto say about the world of the
(45:53):
Fe and how to take caution whenit comes to dealings with the
world of the Fey and what youknow, what the trees teach us,
what the plants and the berriesteach us, or even what man-made
materials like iron have to dowith that world.
So I'm never going to forget,discount, or give less respect
(46:16):
to what I have learned over timein those traditions, like you
were referencing druidictraditions, etc.
That's powerful and helpfulinformation, especially when
you're teaching children andyou're teaching them about these
worlds, and you're teachingthem to be cautious if they can
experience or do experiencethese worlds as being very real.
(46:37):
I will continue to teach mychildren, right?
Those kinds of levels ofawareness.
But I'd say that the majorityof what I work in and with now
tends to be more from the eitherthe Afro-Caribbean practice
from Palo or that which isancestral and Mesoamerican, like
(47:01):
personal to me.
But it's in no way discountingthe importance of what I learned
and was a part of like earlierin my life.
It just I think I also shiftedwhere I moved, shifted
geographically who I'msurrounded by, and that makes a
world of difference.
The more that I am surroundedby diasporic people who are
(47:21):
Afro-Caribbean, is also going toshift who I'm working with and
who I'm talking to and who I'maround, because we also tend to
share that more in common.
So a lot of the practitionersthat are now a part of my family
and a part of my immediacy,they're Afro-Caribbean
practitioners.
So if I were, I don't know,surrounded by Druidic
practitioners in my immediacyand my family and my you know
(47:44):
close circles, then maybe thatwould speak to where I would
continue to be, but I'm not.
So and then as to like thedistinctions you were making,
kind of in hierarchy.
Nicte-Ha (47:55):
I mean well, in hierarchy, maybe the wrong word,
because I don't want to, youknow, like I think that thinking
of a hierarchy of beings is avery like Western European idea
of like there is God over all,and then there's angels
underneath that, right?
So it's like a veryhierarchical view of things.
So not necessarily is therehierarchy, just like, is it
(48:15):
useful for you to talk aboutgods, or is it just sort of the
experience of them?
In my experience, limited as itmight be, they're so big that
it's not really a usefuldistinction to make to call them
gods and distinguish betweenall of them.
Osea (48:33):
It doesn't help.
Well, I'd say that I Iexperience, you know, the
different entities with theirenergetic uniqueness, you know,
and so let me take a step back.
(48:53):
So like in Congo spirituality,you have you have a sky father,
right?
And his name is Sambia orInsambi, right?
And he is referenced ingreetings, he's referenced in a
lot of spiritual teachings thatwhen you're talking about doing
things in light, samby or insambi is referenced, and so
(49:14):
there are even greetings that wehave in the religion that are
basically saying, like, maySambia bless you.
But the religion alsoacknowledges the opposite side,
and not just the dark side, italso recognizes the feminine
side, just as there is a father,just as there is a male force,
there are also female forces, sothere's a sky mother, right?
(49:36):
And she's also super important,she's also acknowledged, it's a
bit different than Abrahamicfaiths that only tended to
acknowledge a male divineentity, and the Kikongol beliefs
involve a sky mother and a skyfather, both.
I'll start there.
They also acknowledge withinthe cosmology uh a force of
(49:58):
darkness, but again, that's notnecessarily to be simplified as
a force of evil, it's wayoversimplifying.
The teachings teach aboutbalance in natural things.
A seed has to remain indarkness for a certain extent of
time before it is prepared as aseed to then grow above ground.
(50:20):
That doesn't make the darknessof the underworld where mycelium
exists bad.
It is a part of its process.
The decay process is not a badthing, even though we associate
it with death.
It is not bad, it is not evil,it is part of life cycles,
right?
So the belief system that thatI engage in when I talk about
(50:45):
Halo beliefs or kikongo beliefs,I'm talking about balance, I'm
talking about natural cycles,I'm talking about ways of seeing
the world in a cosmology wherenature and nature's forces are
all part of this balance.
And so the idea of somethingbeing, I don't know, like
(51:08):
demonic or evil, or like the waythat like some Western
religions want to paint thingsthat are quote unquote darkness.
I'm like, no, that's not a fairassessment.
That sounds like a way ofChristianity trying to wipe out
an indigenous belief.
That sounds like a way ofChristianity trying to scare
people away from their nativebeliefs.
But one of the things thathappened when when Kikongo
(51:32):
beliefs encountered the theCatholic Portuguese is they
tried to say, oh, well, yourinsomnia, that's our Christian
God, right?
But then they wanted to takesome of the other entities that
were believed in and eitherassign them to saints or assign
them to the devil.
(51:52):
And that's like a wayoversimplification of you know
what these were beliefs were.
Zambia is a representation ofeverything, everything that
exists in nature, and thatincludes the dead, but that
doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Like again, it's a very westernbelief to think of the dead as
being like evil and scary and ohmy god, they're gonna harm us
(52:13):
and like all these things.
And I'm like, but you don'tfeel that way about your dead
grandmother who was super sweetand made you cupcakes.
You probably think of your deadgrandmother who you loved with
a lot of endearment, right?
So if you can apply that topeople in your family or people
in your immediacy that you lovedand then passed away, and you
(52:34):
can think of them as still, ifyou can believe that they
continue to exist, think of themas being helpful or protecting
you or watching over you orwatching from heaven or whatever
beliefs you have, you canstretch your belief a bit to
understand that we're allexisting in different dimensions
and planes of existence.
And what what Falo does is itbrings and connects us together
(53:00):
across dimensional planes.
That instead of believing thatwe are eternally separated after
death, no, we don't believethat.
We believe that that deceasedancestors, as an example,
deceased spirits can have arelevance in our existence right
now because we're continuing toexist across planes of
(53:22):
existence and can connect witheach other.
And maybe for some people thatsounds scary, but it doesn't
sound scary to me.
It feels like having a prettycool crew of who looks out for
you and who guides you, and whois there sharing an interest in
your well-being, and sometimesalso who's teaching you hard
(53:43):
lessons, that part too, right?
Speaker (53:46):
But I say it says I rule deep.
I got a deep.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
I rule listen, you ain't never lie.
Yep, I do, and I'm real hypeabout that.
Nicte-Ha (53:58):
There are so many things I could talk about with
you, and I know I would love totalk with you again and dip into
you know your wisdom in thefuture.
But we were talking about whatyou might want to bring out and
talk to people about from yourheart, just to close this out.
Osea (54:15):
Yes.
So I think that there are a lotof folks out there that are in
this in the diasporaspecifically, that are in this
space of like spiritualquestioning where maybe you're
looking for somebody to guideyou, maybe you're looking for a
place to be guided, and some ofus with good intentions spend
(54:36):
our money and our time andenergy knocking on doors that
are not truly gonna assist us.
So, yeah, I'm talking shitabout the five thousand dollar
retreats to Tulum, but alsowhatever that guru-dumb business
model is, you don't need all ofthat.
You need to listen inside, youneed inside yourself, you need
(54:57):
to self-reflect, you need tofind ways of growing in
connection with elders that arepracticing these practices and
demonstrate a level of knowledgeand experience with them, that
they're not trying to hook youin, they're not advertising
their services to try to get amillion god children under them.
(55:18):
They really are just sincere inwhat they do and are willing to
teach and share with you.
And does that sometimes involvemoney and energetic exchange?
Yeah, I mean, like privatetutoring involves money, right?
And elder is not alwaysgrandparent age, sometimes elder
is just somebody that's moreexperienced in a tradition than
you are.
But there are plenty of them orus or however you want to see
(55:42):
it existing in space in ourcommunities, in di spork
communities, that you can findand that you can work with.
You don't have to go on a$10,000 trip halfway across the
world to find this.
You can find this in your owncommunity, in your own backyard,
in people that share identitieswith you.
(56:02):
I think that sometimes it doestake a bit of work, right, to
get to know them and developtrust with them.
But they do exist here, they doexist where we are.
Um and I think also just havinga level of humility is like you
won't know it all in one day,you won't know it all in a week.
If anybody tells you thatthey're lying to you, it takes
(56:24):
practice, understanding, work,observing.
We understood what anapprenticeship was years ago,
right?
And so sometimes being able togrow in these spiritual
practices, especially if we'regoing to talk about closed
traditions in Buddhairia, like,yeah, you're gonna be an
apprentice for a while.
You're gonna be training andlearning under elders for a
while, but that's not a badthing.
(56:44):
That's so you learn to do thesethings responsibly.
So, again, I would justencourage people think carefully
about who is either trying tosell you a promise of spiritual
bypassing because that's not it,right?
Find people that are honest,that are gonna be real with you,
(57:05):
that are willing to tell you toyour face what's up with
honesty.
That's the kind of person youtreasure.
If they have really slickcommercials and social media
presence, think about thatbecause some of the best elders,
Palerinos, Mailerinas, peoplethat I've met in these
(57:26):
traditions, they're busy doingthe work.
And they're busy just living agreat life with their family.
The the the proof, so to speak,is in the type of peace that
they experience as a human.
If they're terrified of youhaving other spiritual friends
or having other spiritual eldersor having other spiritual, you
know, cousins or whatever youwant to call all of us that are
(57:48):
friends with each other, thatshould also be a red flag of a
narcissistic relationship.
So, in the same ways that youwould avoid a toxic relationship
that is romantic, just becareful in spiritual practice to
also avoid those types of toxicrelationships to try to be
controlling of you.
Trust yourself, trust thatsometimes you will feel like you
(58:08):
know nothing and that you havea lot to grow, and that's okay.
But trust your gut instinctthat when somebody feels like
they are overselling you ortrying to control you or trying
to manipulate you, listen tothat voice inside that's like,
let me step back from this.
Because it is really importantthat the people that you
ultimately do grow with inspiritual caminos are also
(58:33):
mature people, are also peoplethat their energy is going to
bring positivity to your life,going to bring balance, and
going to bring a form ofevolution and development.
Folks are out here that knowhow to act right and have trust
that they don't have to be allshiny selling $10,000 packages
abroad.
You can find them here, butit's a matter of recognizing
(58:55):
their worth and recognizing whatthey have to teach you.
Nicte-Ha (58:59):
Thank you, Osea, for teaching us all and for sharing
your wisdom.
And just so much gratitude forbeing a part of this and for
being willing to be on mypodcast and talk about all of
this.
Because I think we did somedeep work.
And I'm I'm excited.
I'm excited for people to hearour conversation and to hear
(59:20):
what you have to say in your inyour perspective because this
was exactly what I wanted tobring in my podcast to other
people who have been like me andfelt out of place and a little
bit at sea.
And I think that your words andyour wisdom bring a sense of
hope and purpose and directionfor other people, for me.
(59:45):
So thank you so much.
Osea (59:47):
That's so nice to hear.
It's true.
Sambia Kutare, may Sambia blessand look over you.
Nicte-Ha (59:55):
Thank you, Chica.
This marks the end of ourthree-part series with Osea,
Bruja, and Curandera.
When I did a card shuffle fortoday's posting, I got Tonatio,
the Sun.
According to this deck, the sunrepresents the ending and the
beginning of a cycle, whichseems appropriate.
(01:00:15):
The sun is warmth, light, lifegiving, like the words that we
have from Osea.
So if you like what you'veheard, follow and share this
podcast for more interviews withartists, spiritual seekers,
thinkers, healers, and otherfolks on this long strange
camino with us.
Plasakamati
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.