May 14, 2025 • 51 mins
Part 2 of my conversation with Osea! In this conversation, we continue our exploration of the complexities of identity, spirituality, and cultural practices. Osea shares her journey of self-identification as a bruja and a Palo priestess, navigating the intersections of her Mexican heritage, Catholic upbringing, and the rich tapestry of ancestral practices they encompass. We discuss syncretism, engaging with closed traditions, and the importance of holistic healing practices that honor cultural roots. We discuss the role of the dead, spiritual warfare, and racism in magical systems. Join us!
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00:00 - Cultural Appropriation and Spiritual Practices
01:17 - The Impact of Western Medicine on Traditional Healing
05:10 - The Role of Touch and Healing in Community
21:30 - Reconnecting with Ancestral Practices
22:38 - Brujeria vs. Curanderismo
25:28 - Activism and Brujeria
32:20 - Palo
40:20 - Spiritual warfare and personal conviction
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
This is Bernadette from the future, and I just want
to say that I actually hadanother segment recorded that
went in depth about Ostea'sCatholicism and the differences
between Mexican RomanCatholicism and American Roman
Catholicism, and more about howthat identity evolved, but I
(00:24):
seem to have lost it.
So we're just going to continuewith the next two installments.
Please enjoy this secondinstallment with Osea touching
more about her spirituality andactivism, the importance of
clarity and understanding thecost associated when you engage
(00:45):
in brujeria and also the role ofbrujeria for marginalized and
oppressed communities.
So enjoy and thank you onceagain for joining the Rainbow
House.
(01:10):
I want to say again thank you somuch for making time for this.
It's really been a pleasuretalking about all this with you.
And I did a little poll inpreparation for our
conversation.
And this one of the same cardscame up as our first time, who
is uh Chico Mekwat, who's theprovider of sustenance.
And then I also got MiktekaSiwat and Miklan de Kutli.
(01:34):
The Lord and the Lady of theUnderworld.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Which, if you remember, I was like, that's who
I'm expecting.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Yes, you said they should show up.
And I think what's nice is myfirst poll was had Olin
movement.
So we're moving toward the Lordand the Lady of the Underworld
in our conversation.
And we also have the Lady ofPlenty, maybe plenty of ideas,
plenty of sharing, plenty ofhealing, plenty of disruption,
(02:07):
and change.
Future Bernadette breaking inagain just to explain that I
have a Jade, the an Oracle deckcalled the Jade Oracle, Deities
and Symbols of Ancient Mexico.
(02:28):
It's similar to a tarot carddeck, but a little bit
different.
So those are the cards that I'mreferring to, and prior to our
interviews, both times, or I dida pull, a shuffle through the
cards to see what came up.
So just a little note that ifyou're interested, I will put
the link to the deck in the shownotes, and uh that's to provide
(02:52):
a little bit more context aboutwhat I'm talking about here.
So I thought for this one, Imean, we'll probably go all over
the place because that's justhow we are, but I thought for
our conversation today we couldjust talk a little bit more
about your spiritual role andyour spiritual life.
(03:16):
I know that now you have thebruja aspect, you have the your
curandera.
And so if you could just talkabout the different aspects of
your spirituality, what doesbeing a curandera entail?
But let's start first with justlike pantheons and kind of like
opening with that.
Like how you moved on maybe fromCeltic deities to more and what
(03:40):
that looks like for you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
Sure.
There's this great expression inSpanish that I think helps
explain certain things in thisregard.
So it's la sangre lama, right?
It's like the blood calls.
It refers to ways in which formany of us that feel called to
these different paths, thesecaminos, a lot of times it gets
connected back to your DNA, yourancestry.
(04:05):
And if you think of your yourexistence in space is part of a
lineage, and that lineage goesforwards and backwards and
sideways in time.
So I'm gonna drop a little bitof like quantum physics into
this conversation.
If everything is existing rightnow, then I am also what my
descendants are.
So I am also what my childrenare, I am also what you know my
(04:27):
grandchildren are.
Like I am part of a greaterconnection to my ancestors, I'm
also part of a greaterconnection to the family that
becomes mine right now in whatwe perceive in linear time as
our future, but they're all withme, they're always with me.
So then it starts to make a bitof sense as to like why certain
(04:48):
lineages or pathways call to us.
So I have a mixed background, Ido have Celtic background, I do
have Mesoamerican background,and you know, kind of moving
forward in time, I also haveAfro-Caribbean background, which
is an interesting considerationwhen I then go and explain like
what this all is.
A part of being a bruja and apart of being a curandera is
(05:10):
sometimes you experience time ina way that's maybe very
different than linear time,right?
Where you start to see your andothers, what we perceive as
future, as almost like rightnow.
You start to see what's coming,what's likely, what, and you
live it like sometimes invisions, dreams, but also
(05:33):
visions, you live an experienceof going, like, oh, this is me,
and this is my life, and this iswhat I am, and this is what I'm
going to be.
And so I've had experiences likethat my whole life, and it
doesn't mean that I I guess hadto commit to going down that
path, but it became increasinglyevident to me more than 20 years
ago what was what was on itsway, which is a long time to be
(05:56):
able to start, you know,unfurling what this kind of
practice means.
So I grew up already at homewith herbs and spiritual
practices that would be a partof what we call curanderismo,
right?
So curanderismo brings togetherit's a syncretized belief system
(06:18):
that relates to healing, it hassyncretized beliefs with
Catholicism.
Um, I've also kind of found thatit's in Mexico a safer term than
calling yourself a bruja, right?
Like curanderos and curanderasare well respected as healers.
Sometimes they're an even betteralternative to going to a
hospital or seeing doctorsbecause the thought is that you
(06:41):
know, curanderos and curanderasare going to be able to treat
things that a hospital ortraditional medical practice may
not have a holistic lens on,right?
So there is a belief withincuranderismo that these
imbalances that people areexperiencing that present
themselves as illness or presentthemselves as being unwell, they
(07:03):
could have a host of causes.
Yes, could they be medicalimbalances in the body?
Sure, absolutely.
Could they also havemetaphysical causes?
That too.
When I say metaphysical, youknow, mind, body, spirit, and
could also go down the realm oflike curses, hexes, jealousies,
(07:27):
right?
Like what people call maleoko.
You know, mylohaires, there'slots of different beliefs in
curanderismo basically about howenergy is flowing into the body,
mind, spirit space that is usincorporated.
And so the curanderismopractices aim to bring that back
(07:48):
into balance.
And that could be through herbs,that could be through massage,
right?
There are sobaderas that theirtheir focus is on um massaging
and like moving ummusculoskeletal tissue right
into alignment to help deal withsome of these imbalances.
Um parteras focus on birth, whatin like regular Western medicine
(08:14):
you want to call a midwife.
Like parteras are a huge part ofpreparing um people's bodies for
birth, right?
And even after birth.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
And like caring, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
Platticas, yeah, platicas.
So platicas are ways of usingspeech, conversation again, to
bring balance, to bring release,which if you've ever been to
therapy, you're like, oh, thatsounds familiar.
But it's it's a way to releasewhat we tend to hold in the body
and what we tend to hold inspirit that harms us, is to
(08:46):
release that in healthier ways,like uh de-escalation, like a
conflict resolution whentherapy, you're like, Oh, yeah,
you know, we do this, right?
In in Western medicine, and thenpay like$200 an hour.
Okay, well, Coranderismo doesn'treally gatekeep that and say,
like, oh man, you had to go findsome other person and then pay
them for 45 you know minutes aweek to listen to you talk about
(09:09):
your problems.
You can do that in community,you can heal and resolve some of
these issues without having tostep outside of what your miss.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
So, quick question.
So, some of what I'veexperienced in my own life, I
thought this was just me being aperceptive person.
Like sometimes you can look at achild's face or an adult's face,
and you get a flash of whatthey're gonna look like as an
adult, or in an adult's face, ina situation, you're like, oh, I
(09:41):
see the child in you.
Right?
And you it's not like a seeing,it's just like a it's a it's a
momentary insight into the hurtor the joy or the you know, just
the the parts of that personthat have kind of that are
connected through time.
And then also, as you know, wetalked about it.
(10:04):
I've done massage my whole life,right?
I'm not a trained massagetherapist, but I've been told by
multiple people that I'm muchbetter than a trained massage
therapist.
And one of the things that wasinteresting to me is I always
thought of it as like what I wasdoing, one of my cousins always
asked me, they're like, Oh, canyou like I just it feels so good
when you massage?
I'm like, sure.
And then they got my aunt to uhthey were they kept urging my
(10:28):
aunt.
And I love my aunt very much,but she's a very, very private
person.
And so I actually don't knowvery much about her personal
life at all.
And I distinctly remember shesat down and she was finally,
she said, Oh, okay, sure.
And she sat down in front of me,and I put my hands on her, and I
just instantly was like, This isnot, I'm not welcome.
(10:53):
Like, I can't, there's this willjust feel like any other sort of
massage.
I can't go in.
There's no welcome in.
And that was the first time thatI had ever realized that there
were some people who were closedoff and that it wasn't about
just the massage, that I couldmassage their muscles and it
(11:17):
would be fine, but that therewas a very strong barrier, that
they were just not going to letme in in some other way.
And that was the first time Iever felt like, oh, maybe
something I'm doing is not justmuscles.
SPEAKER_00 (11:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
Is it like that?
Is that kind of a thing?
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
And then some.
So I'll give you the sort of thegamut of like what I've
experienced, you know, doinghealing work, right, with folks.
Is sure you can intersect theirenergy and hit a wall.
You can also hit what feels liketar, what feels like very, very
(11:58):
sticky, dark tar.
I tend to associate that withcancers, right?
Like when people are are dealingwith tumors or cancers, like
sometimes I'll connect intotheir energy, and I'm like, oh
boy.
Um, because I'll feel it likethe way that it's attacking
their system from the inside.
(12:19):
Sometimes what I'll hit istrauma and rage and anger.
And you know, depending on whatthat was, it could be rooted in
different places, it could beall the way at the root.
What you know people describe aschakras, depending on how long
ago something happened and howimpactful it was on them.
Like if it's something that goesway back to childhood, sometimes
(12:39):
I'll hit that explosion umaround what people call the
sacral chakra.
But maybe it's emotional andit's more something from
adulthood, and that might bemore in like the heart areas.
So I've I've definitely workedwith people energetically in
like healing sessions andsettings, just practicing a
(13:00):
sequandera, not also doingbruhia, like just from like the
healing or energy healing side,and I've hit all different kinds
of energetic responses in andaround the body.
And there is an aspect of howsafe somebody feels and how
willing they are to openthemselves.
(13:23):
Like you're saying, some peoplereally just are are hesitant or
afraid, or you know, maybe theyassociate it with something like
deep-seated guilt, they think itmight be evil, and so they just
like close off to it, and allthey want, like you're
mentioning, is a massage, whichI'm definitely not the person
for that job because I don'ttend to touch people.
I think that's meaningful for meto mention is that for me doing
(13:44):
like sobalera type things, Itend to restrict that to my
family or very, very closepeople to me to do that kind of
like you know, touch-relatedenergetic exchange, which is me
trying to be careful andrespectful with like everything
I bring, all of the energies andall of the things that I bring.
Me doing touch is could bereally intense for somebody.
(14:06):
So I tend to hover above them.
Like what people associate withlike Reiki practice, where
you're like not touching thebody, you're generally speaking,
your hands or whatever else useif you use eyes or mouth, like
you're you're in physicalproximity to the person, but
you're not touching them, theymight start faking, like they
might have an emotionalexplosion.
Like when you're moving energyin the body, or you're even
(14:29):
touching on where energy mightbe, it can be really impactful
for the person.
And that doesn't mean don'trelease it, that doesn't mean
don't touch it.
It just means you know,recognize what it is that you're
doing.
If you want something removed,that pathway might not always be
easy to do.
(15:29):
When something becomesuncomfortable.
I think that there should beconsent and understanding in
that process.
Like, consent is everything, andexplain to somebody, hey, when I
read you, when I scan you, likehere's some of the stuff that
comes up.
Can we touch it?
Can we deal with it, right?
Are you gonna be okay with that?
Because everybody comes fromdifferent backgrounds, come from
(15:52):
different life experiences, comefrom different nations in many
cases.
What might be really easy forone person who's like, oh my
god, that's nothing.
Like you're not even touchingme, right?
If they've gone through certaintrauma in life, they might be
like, oh, this is gonna be easylight work, right?
And some other person might bekeenly uncomfortable with you
having your hands hovering overthem.
(16:12):
I've dealt with a little bit ofevery type of reaction to that
gamut.
So I think that what's reallyimportant in in that realm, in
that aspect, is recognizingconsent, um, encouraging people
to be like, hey, let's let'smove through this, like let's
let's deal with it.
Because a cancer metaphor islike if you've got a tumor and I
(16:35):
just go, it's not gonna removethe tumor, you don't want just a
little biopsy, you want thatwhole shit out and you want to
heal afterwards.
So recognizing in thesepractices to be honest, because
sometimes the only way out isthrough.
But making sure that somebody isis at the point of of consenting
(16:58):
to it, because I think one ofthe older styles of this is they
did not give a fuck.
They were like, here's thecurandera, here's the curandero,
they're gonna do whatever you'regonna do, and then you're like,
Oh my god, stuff is justhappening, and then then people
get scared, people freak out,and they get traumatized by the
healing practice.
SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
That was something for real that happened in my
family.
I don't think people weretraumatized, but I think they
were very confused.
So, like the kids would bebrought in, and you know, they'd
be like the curanderas here fromMexico.
We our family had a very strongrelationship with her, and she's
gonna, you know, gonna giveeveryone kuras.
And there was just like nocontext for what was happening.
(17:40):
Right.
And so they were like, Okay, soI wear this, and then that she's
gonna do that, and then whatthat there was an egg, like
what's happening?
And if you like, I was theresometimes, but I wasn't like I
never actually saw any of therituals because I wasn't the
focus of them.
So I would be in the house withmy little science fiction book
being like, I don't know what'shappening.
(18:00):
And so I think thatunfortunately, I think if there
had been the ability for peopleto be more open and have more
knowledge around what this isand why it's important, I think
that they would have been moreeffective because it's kind of
like if somebody just gives youa medical treatment, but they
don't talk to you about whyyou're sick and what's happening
(18:20):
and what this is gonna do foryou.
Maybe it'll work, right?
But as we know, the placeboeffect is very strong.
If you know it's going to work,if you know it's supposed to be
helpful, that can help boost theeffects of even Western
medication.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
I would go far beyond even.
I think that people mistake theplacebo effect as a as like a
dummy outcome.
And I'm like, no, the placeboeffect is everything.
You want to heal, you need tofirmly believe in your healing.
You want something to make adifference, you need to make
that your whole reality.
Somebody could practice thebest, most fancy form of
(18:57):
medicine on you.
And if you have convincedyourself that you are not going
to get better, your body isgonna block the benefits of
whatever that treatment couldhave been.
So to me, like the first placesomebody needs to be at is be
like, I firmly believe in mywellness, I firmly believe in my
wholeness, I am whole, right?
(19:20):
I am well, and holding thatbelief in whatever treatment you
are exploring, I think is super,super important because
otherwise you're using your ownenergy to shoot yourself in the
foot, right?
It benefits you zero to go intoany type of healing or medical
experience and be like, thisshit isn't gonna work, right?
(19:42):
Like it really is not helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Also, you can go in, as I experienced with a shaman
and Bali, with a very jadedattitude that this shit is just
for show and for money, and thenyou get your spirits ass kicked,
like I did.
So watch it when you think thatyou're being so cool and that
(20:07):
you're making fun of all thepeople that do spiritual
tourism, and then you go and youget your clock cleaned.
Spiritually speaking, it'sreally self-shattering
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
I I I I enjoy I'm gonna say shout out to some of
those folks out here in themetaphysical sphere.
They have this fun phrase theycall ego death, and I'm like,
ow, you guys are so funny.
I was like, yeah, there is nolike maximum stage of of
whatever they want to call egodeath.
(20:44):
It's all it's all differentlevels of awareness and
self-awareness and experience ofself.
But those moments of release,whatever you want to call them,
of releasing into the void, ofreleasing into what your
experience is of learning fromit and and not holding on to
egotistical expectations.
(21:05):
Yeah, no, I think that's allreally healthy, I think that's
all really helpful, you know.
Uh, and coming out on the otherside of that, growing, having a
growth mindset.
For some people, that does takebeing humbled.
For other people, it might bethat they're just more ready to
accept and keep moving.
But I think again, the more youframe yourself from a
(21:26):
perspective of everything I'mdoing right now is good for me,
like everything that I am takingon right now in this spiritual
experience, in this healingexperience, and this
guarandarismo experience, likethis is medicine for me, I am
well, I am growing towardsbetter harmony with my body,
with my spirit, with my mind.
Like, all of that is a betterplace to start from for your
(21:49):
well-being than I would say someof the alternatives, which I've
also experienced, and like yousaid, results may vary on how
much you get your butt kicked.
Yeah.
When you when you come at itwith that approach, but the
suffering part's kind ofoptional, you don't have to
choose it.
(22:10):
You can you can flow through itin a different way, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
But it's well, it's like being picked up by a river,
you can just sort of relax back,or you can just like try to
fight every second and you getknocked and turned upside down,
right?
It's not gonna be something.
Do you so a couple minutes agoyou made a distinction between
brujeria and curanderismo, andso can you talk a little bit
(22:34):
about for you what thatdistinction is between the two?
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
The degree to which I'm moving with more spiritual
allies and engaging in practicesthat would move beyond the
gentler approaches, that's sortof what I'm categorizing and
what I'm seeing right now isburujia.
But I think of when I think ofcoranderismo, I'm thinking of
(23:02):
something that is exclusively ormore exclusively for healing,
for remedying right situations.
And I mean, can remedy somesituations, but it can also it
can also be war, it can also bea tataquieto, you know what I'm
saying?
Like it is not it is not asfocused on just the healing per
(23:31):
se, right?
And I think that you know, oneof my noticings and shifts from
Western white witchcraft,whatever you want to call that
is, is there was like this hugeemphasis for some and like, oh
my god, do no harm, like do noharm, don't, you know, only only
white magic now is like I don'tlike that phrase also sounds mad
(23:53):
racist, right?
Because what are youimplicating?
You're implicating that thepractices of Afro-Caribbean
people are somehow dark, wrong,evil.
We're just gonna you know erasethe fact that people were um
also enslaved and it was theirresponse to being enslaved.
Like, since when is you knowresisting your oppressor dark or
(24:15):
evil, right?
If that didn't apply to you, ifyou didn't have that experience,
who the fuck are you to say thatno, no, no, you you should only
use white light and sage on youroppressor?
Fuck out of here.
Fuck out of here.
I'm sorry.
Anything that moves towardsbalance against oppression, it's
(24:40):
really easy for people to paintthat as like, oh my god, but
they're victims because peopledid witchcraft on them.
I was like, those motherfuckersdeserved it.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Well, and I think I think that the the white light
do no harm thing, I think thatactually came from a
misunderstanding andincorporation of karma.
Because all of the like kind ofwhite witchcraft, the
Gardinarian stuff is anamalgamation of a lot of
different mystery traditionsthat includes like a heavy
(25:12):
amount of Hindu philosophy asthey understood it, right?
And this idea of karmicretribution, because when you
start talking about karma, karmais very complicated, it's not as
direct as people think.
And so I think a lot of thatcomes from a misunderstanding of
the principles of karma.
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Sure.
I think sometimes, and this issort of where my line of
resistance has been, I tend todraw a lot of parallels between
like Bruhiria and otherpractices and like activism,
right?
So there are people in activismthat like they only want to do a
protest that has been approved,that has a permit, and they will
(25:50):
only walk on the sidewalk andlike no bad words, guys, and
like you know, we're gonna havepre-approved signs and we're
only gonna march on thepre-approved route.
And then there are others of usin the activism world that are
like, wow, that sounds madperformative and really helpful
to your oppressors, that you donothing to make them
(26:13):
uncomfortable.
If anything, they're like, hey,we're your oppressors, and you
can only color inside theselines and you can only use the
you know the color green.
And you're like, Yes, Matabas,I'm only gonna do what you told
me to.
How the fuck is that protest?
If you don't disrupt, if youdon't push back, if you don't
push back on the harm that'sbeing caused, on the oppression,
(26:35):
or even on their right to haveauthority, right, in oppressive
ways, when the fuck did thatbecome protest?
That's not protest.
Protest is disruptive, right?
Resistance is disruptive to theoppressor.
So, you know, I I take thatmentality back to the practices
(26:56):
that I'm discussing.
It's like, are therecircumstances that I think 100%
call for curranderismo?
Yes.
Are there circumstances that Ithink call for brujeria or like
more intense brujeria?
A thousand percent.
Everything's gotta be withconsent, though.
I'm not gonna go start a processinvolving somebody else's life
(27:18):
without their explicit consentand understanding about you know
what the benefits and riskscould be, right?
What is involved along the way,and that make it very, very
clear they can pull back consentat any point, right?
Like this is not something thatI need to be on a crusade on
(27:39):
doing for them, right?
I do, I do my own shit for me, Ido my own shit for for my own,
for my household, for my family.
But if it's gonna involvesomebody else, they should have,
in my mind, a very clearunderstanding of what we're
getting into and what could be apart and parcel of what that
brings into being.
(27:59):
And I think that's where it'slike when you're talking about
karmic restribution, you know,I'll give you an example.
And Brujidia, don't go fuckingsearching for justice if you
know that you've been on doingsome dirt shit yourself, right?
If you were doing dirty shit,and then you want to go after
somebody for justice, well, andyou want to go work with an
entity that's focused onjustice, and you were out here
(28:22):
in these streets doing unjustthings, maybe think on that
before you go down that path.
Because now you're acceleratinghow quickly the arc of justice
also sweeps back towards you.
So that's where I think the theconsideration should be in terms
of like you know, is it light?
Is it dark?
I'm like, uh-uh.
(28:42):
It's balance, it's aboutbalance, right?
And so being mindful is whatyou're asking for something else
the same that you would wantasked for yourself.
Do I want for you what I wantfor me?
Like that, I think is a veryreasonable question to ask
yourself before entering intoany type of stage of of
(29:04):
burrujeria.
Is it's not about you know,white this or dark that or black
this or no, because that alsogets into like a bunch of racial
connotations that I think aresuper racist that are that are
anti-black, right?
Anti-indigenous.
I go back to it's balance, it'sfairness.
(29:25):
So this is why I think when itcomes to brujeria, it's like
we're having a very differentconversation, right?
We're going from something thatmight feel like in curanderismo
to be maybe a very purifying,very healing experience to like
in brujeria.
How far are you willing to go?
How much justice are you willingto take back?
(30:30):
Because in many situations,especially when people want to
explore choosing Viru Khariria,sometimes I tell people, you
don't need witchcraft, you needtherapy.
Like you really need to reflecton what were your choices, what
were your actions, what wereyour words that led to said
scenario that now you arelooking for rukheria to go and
resolve that.
(30:51):
Now, in some situations, thatmight not be safe.
So I'll give the example ofdomestic violence.
Well, if the if the situation isDV, and I personally am not into
like cops resolving things, thenI'm not going to tell somebody,
oh, but did you report it topolice?
No.
And I can think of manyscenarios where that would not
be safe.
If you're an immigrant rightnow, you probably want zero
(31:12):
involvement with anything lawenforcement because it could
lead to your arrest, it couldlead to your detention, even if
you were the victim, it couldlead to your immediate
deportation because of the Lakeand Riley Act.
And I could go on.
That could be like a whole otherpodcast.
But the point is, I understandwhy in that situation, if
somebody's dealing with DV,their next step might be like
(31:32):
brujeria and not going to a cop.
Right?
Because they need to be safe,they need justice, they need
protection.
That's gonna be, and and that'sgonna be a theoretically
non-confrontational way to goabout it because they could be
putting themselves in dangertrying to confront the person
that is actively causing theharm, the violence, the abuse,
(31:55):
etc.
So, you know, Buruhiria iscomplex.
You know, we tend to consult, atleast in my in my pathway.
So I'm a palera, right?
We tend to consult always andfirst as to one, whether we can
consult the person, right, andintervene.
What's a palera?
A palera, somebody who practicesa form of palo.
(32:15):
So palo is an Afro-Caribbeanfaith, it's a dipork faith.
SPEAKER_01 (32:20):
It's based out of sorry, I was like palo, you mean
like stick?
Like, yeah, you come, you'regonna get.
SPEAKER_00 (32:26):
Well, there's a reason why it's called palo
because we work with trees,because we work with sacred
trees among other things.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Oh, this totally fits because I think I remember
you exploring druidism.
This is correct.
So in between, right?
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Yeah, how different parts of the world connections
with the trees, sacred trees,and the abilities of sacred
trees can be used for a wholehost of things.
Can they be used for healing?
Sure.
Can they be used for Tate Kieto?
Absolutely.
They have lots of differentuses.
So in Palo, we have manydifferent trees that are worked,
that branches from those treesor the trees themselves are part
(33:04):
of the work of what we do.
It's also it heavily involvesthe dead.
Um, there are traditions thatcame out of the Congo, that when
people were trafficked from theCongo, they were often
trafficked up into West Africa,and then they were brought to
Cuba.
And so, depending on your Caminoand Palo, there are different
like lineages in Palo.
(33:24):
There's Palo Mayombe, well, inCuba, it was called like Palo
Monte, there's palomayombe, palobriumba, um paloquimbisa.
There are a lot of differentbranches in Palo.
And so the branches vary interms of like do they syncretise
more beliefs?
Do they involve Ocha, which isYudua beliefs and practices that
(33:45):
people in our side of the oceanassociate with santeria?
Right?
So there are branches of Palothat incorporate elements of
Ocha, incorporate elements ofChristianity, incorporate
elements of voodoo, incorporateelements of espiritismo, and in
one branch incorporate elementsof Awakua, a secret society that
was all black in Cuba.
Um, and there are some that justmore specifically are reglacongo
(34:09):
that are more centrically basedin the the spiritual practices
of the people from the Congo,right?
So I practice one of those, oneof those branches that would
make me a palera.
And so what I'm saying to you islike in my particular tradition,
for me to intervene and getinvolved with somebody, you
know, for the purpose ofRukeria, first I consult as to
(34:32):
whether I can work with them,like whether this is a good
idea, whether this is a goodfit.
And then, you know, there's aconsultation about what's going
on, which you know, if we wereto apply that kind of like to
Guranderismo practices, is likethat's kind of like the
diagnosis of going, okay, well,or just I mean, if you're a
(34:54):
Western medical practitioner,you have a consultation.
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
You talk to the person about what's happening.
SPEAKER_00 (34:58):
Yep.
And so the the thing about Palois you're you're doing energetic
exchange just by consultingbecause you're asking the
entities that you work with tohelp guide your scope and
understanding of a person'ssituation, right?
So there has to be energeticexchange given for you to do
(35:20):
that.
That can be money, some peopleask for other things depending
on what their needs are.
Some people might just ask foran energetic exchange that's
given to the spirits that theywork with.
It doesn't have to be money, butlet's say it often is.
And that's just to to, like Isaid, do a consultation to see
what what's going on.
(35:40):
Some of us in the Palo world,just by talking to somebody, our
muertos will speak to us.
This is a longer story aboutpalo, but we are we'll say very
closely bonded with the deadthat we work with, and so
sometimes our muertos will justactively go, hey, this is what's
going on, right?
We'll start to see it and hearit and understand it without
(36:02):
even going through the formalprocess of consultation.
I mean, I guess it's up to eachpalero as to whether they want
to speak on what they see andthey hear, even without being in
a formal setting of consulta,because it'll happen anyways,
even when we don't mean for itto, right?
Like we'll walk into situationsand we'll become immediately
(36:23):
aware of stuff that's going onwith people that in some cases
maybe they would rather notreveal, or maybe they're not
even aware of.
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
I have a girlfriend who is very cautious about when
and how she enters graveyards.
SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Because she says it's very loud.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
Very it can be, you know.
And and I think people also inthe West think that the dead
only stick around in graveyards,and uh no, they're all over the
place.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Yes, she does get interrupted in other places as
well.
But I think she says graveyardsare particularly noisy.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
They can be, they can be.
Um, hospitals are super noisy,hospitals are super duper noisy.
Any type of complex where peopleare harmed, tortured,
interrogated, so that would belike prisons and jails, like
also just kind of depends.
But there's also people thatthey just have like their own
(37:19):
familial dead or their own likefriendly dead, or somebody's put
on what on them, not sofriendly, that they're carrying
around on their back, on theirshoulders.
So the world of the dead is areally complex thing to get
into.
Like I said, that could thatcould be like a whole other
conversation.
But the point is is that Ipersonally proceed very
(37:40):
cautiously with like, okay,every every step of this along
the way is there's gotta beconsent.
I should not be trauma blastingsomebody with something that I
become aware of just by lookingat them, and just because I have
the ability to like listen orhear something very personal and
private about their life.
You know, I'm a big believeragain, and consent that they
want that information.
(38:01):
Um, they want to do energeticexchange for it, but they don't
have to.
That's totally fine.
And then what will come up isusually a okay, well, here's
some viable pathways to thenchange whatever those
circumstances are that are notideal, right?
Because usually what comes up ina consulta is what might be
(38:25):
behind the problem or problemsthat somebody is dealing with,
the entities that I work with ummay ask for certain things, and
that's that kind of is whatcomes out of the consulta.
It's like, okay, well, what doyou want in exchange to help
resolve this scenario?
And Walo is like now, it's likeright now, right?
(38:46):
You know, and each type ofruggeria works differently.
There are types of rugiria whereyou are giving offerings and
you're asking for things, andit's not super different than
like people lighting candles forCatholic saints.
You know what I mean?
Like you're asking forintercession, you're giving an
offering, you're asking forthere to be change in that
situation.
It may or may not come.
(39:07):
And there are forms of ruggeriawhere you're negotiating with an
entity, and they may take thenegotiation and accept it, and
it may blow up in your face,right?
Like rukeriya is not a monolith.
Each pantheon, each type ofentity that you work with,
whether you allow for thoseentities to mount you or not,
(39:29):
because there's like, forexample, the branch of a speedy
thesmal where people will bringdown different entities and then
like host them in their bodies,like that could be very
different than maybe somethingthat I might be doing.
But a belief that we do have inPhilo is that things happen
quickly.
So once you you consent to,like, yeah, I'm gonna do this
thing, I'm gonna give this inexchange, things tend to move
(39:51):
very quickly because the cost ofwhat something may be to
resolve, not everybody's readyfor that price.
I don't know if you've ever readthe short story The Monkey's
Paw, where this guy really wantsthe money for something to come
out of it, and then there's atragic accident that affects his
son.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
Well, and there's there's a lot of cautionary
tales like that, like thepicture of Dorian Gray, the
monkey's paw.
So there's little hints of thatin popular culture.
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
And I think that that is a very real way to
consider how some types ofruhiria can work.
Is it depending on what you'reasking for, depending on the
intensity, depending on thelevel of energy that it's going
to require to shift something tothe direction that you want it
to go in, to the outcome thatyou want, the ask could be very,
(40:43):
very high.
Um, and it could the the theterm that we use is secar.
It could really dry you out.
It could dry out thepractitioner or practitioners
that are attempting to do thatwork on your behalf.
So, you know, there shouldalways, in my mind, be a
consideration of like, is thecost worth it?
(41:04):
Is the price worth it?
I personally prefer only to workon the side of things that I'm
really not about causing harm toinnocent people.
One, I'm absolutely patentlyagainst any harm to minors or
children.
I don't like doing anythingthat's gonna cause harm to
innocent people, to thirdparties, collateral damage.
(41:28):
I don't like any of that.
I personally try to operate witha conscience, right?
And be careful and consideratein what comes up in consultation
and in sort of deep reflectionof like, okay, if I go down this
road, it's war.
If I go down this road, it'sgonna impact this person really
profoundly.
They could touch whatever ismost precious to them, right?
(41:51):
That's how some of this works.
So to me, it's like you'reputting the onus of your work on
having a conscience or not, anddeciding for yourself how
willing you are, how far you'rewilling to go to bring an
outcome to reality.
(42:11):
Because anything is possible,everything has a cost.
But if you have been deep in thepractice of oppressing and
harming people, I am not of thebelief that you get to go
scot-free.
That everybody needs to have kidgloves with you when you have
been part of trafficking andharming and abusing and
(42:33):
oppressing people, right?
Like I just it I don't share thebelief that you know kid gloves
should be for you.
There are other belief systemsthat exist in the world that do
think that everybody deserves,you know, forgiveness and
gentleness, no matter what theydo to others.
I'm not here to say that that'snot right.
(42:54):
That's people's beliefs.
I, you know, like I try to berespectful as much as possible,
that there are plenty of faithsand practices in the world that
have a very like turn the othercheek and then some, right?
Forgive and then some.
And I go, if that is what bringsyou closer to the divine, if
that is what brings you closerto enlightenment, if that is
(43:15):
what brings you closer tooneness, that is beautiful.
And you should keep doing that.
SPEAKER_01 (43:20):
As long as you're actually turning the other
cheek, right?
And being gentle, which not alot of that going on in the
world right now.
But then again, are they reallyliving the faith that they
profess?
And I would say 95% of themknow.
SPEAKER_00 (43:36):
Maybe.
I mean, I I guess I'm justwilling to admit I'm a little
more spiritual gangster aboutshit.
Where I'm like, I was like, I amhere for all the people that are
gentle and kind and forgiving.
And I respect and protect theirright to do that, but knuck if
(43:57):
you buck.
Like if you're if you're comingfor any of these innocent people
that are not striking back atyou, that are not causing you
harm, and you know, you're justgonna keep on harming, and
you're just gonna keep onoppressing, you're just gonna
keep on abusing.
SPEAKER_01 (44:14):
I mean Well, that's how and that's how bullies and
that's how dictators stay inpower, is people don't stand up.
Right.
They're afraid and they hunkerdown and they try and keep
quiet.
And I understand why, you know.
I do, I have young children, andso I have to make the
(44:37):
calculation of how much I wantto be involved and speaking out
and speaking up and what thatmeans for my children, and when
it's safe, and when it, youknow, how comfortable I am with
what could happen, because Ithink that things are not moving
in a very positive direction.
SPEAKER_00 (44:53):
Right.
And so I think that as a mom, Iam one step even beyond that in
the scale of me being like, Iwant my children to grow up on
the world where they see thatmom absolutely fought back.
SPEAKER_01 (45:07):
And that's the thing, right?
In five years, in ten years, in15 years, I don't want them to
say, What did you do?
And I said, Well, I stayed safe.
And that's what I did.
I stayed quiet and I kept myhead down and I didn't say
anything.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
Yep.
Listen, I'm I'm pretty sure it'snot lost upon my family right
now, the type of person I am,the best of all the things right
now.
But I'd say for me, that thatlegacy of what I chose and how I
chose to live, and again, wherethat intersecting is also marked
with you know, my pathways inactivism, my pathways in
(45:45):
Buddhitiya, like, yeah, no, hellyeah, I want my kids to know.
Hell yeah, I want my grandkidsto know.
This is what I was about.
That we do not stay silent inthe face of oppression, we do
not stay actionless in the faceof oppression.
And maybe not everybody iscalled to that, and that's okay.
(46:07):
But for those of us that arecapable, for those that are
willing, like I said, mount upand not be fearful and not give
into the hopelessness and thehelplessness that things cannot
change, right?
I think that that for mepersonally is a huge comfort in
embrujeria, in that I don't needto be the wealthiest person, I
(46:28):
don't need to be a senator, Idon't need to be a CEO, I don't
need to be any of the thingsthat we tend to associate with
influence and power.
I can be exactly what I am, andthat is plenty.
When you start to understand howthese worlds work, you start to
understand how these practiceswork, like, listen, we are
(46:48):
plenty to go and deal with.
And the world doesn't often knowhow to stop us, which is really
nice, right?
Because some of these practiceshave become closed and hidden
over the years, and also peoplediscount them and they don't
think that they're real.
I'm like, keep on believing thatthey're not real.
That is fine by me.
I do not need to be themissionary of all things
(47:11):
brujeria to convince you of whatwe can do.
It's actually better for me ifyou don't think we can do
anything, because then you don'tknow how to stop it.
So just keep on living in thatblissful ignorance that works
for me.
SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
This week, the week I am recording, saw an
escalation of communitydisappearances, the blatant
violations of human rights, andincreasing public corruption.
Brown folks of all immigrationstatuses, citizens or not,
undocumented or not, are beinghunted while the Trump
administration flies in 200,000white South Africans as
refugees.
Make no mistake, whitenationalism is the agenda and
(48:40):
the purpose to what ishappening.
Fortifying ourselves spirituallyand being ready to speak truth
to power is necessary when wehave the Gestapo loose on the
streets.
Keep yourself safe and rememberthat the power of the people is
greater than the people inpower.
This is Bernadette from the future, and I just want
to say that I actually hadanother segment recorded that
went in depth about Ostea'sCatholicism and the differences
between Mexican RomanCatholicism and American Roman
Catholicism, and more about howthat identity evolved, but I
(00:24):
seem to have lost it.
So we're just going to continuewith the next two installments.
Please enjoy this secondinstallment with Osea touching
more about her spirituality andactivism, the importance of
clarity and understanding thecost associated when you engage
(00:45):
in brujeria and also the role ofbrujeria for marginalized and
oppressed communities.
So enjoy and thank you onceagain for joining the Rainbow
House.
(01:10):
I want to say again thank you somuch for making time for this.
It's really been a pleasuretalking about all this with you.
And I did a little poll inpreparation for our
conversation.
And this one of the same cardscame up as our first time, who
is uh Chico Mekwat, who's theprovider of sustenance.
And then I also got MiktekaSiwat and Miklan de Kutli.
(01:34):
The Lord and the Lady of theUnderworld.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Which, if you remember, I was like, that's who
I'm expecting.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Yes, you said they should show up.
And I think what's nice is myfirst poll was had Olin
movement.
So we're moving toward the Lordand the Lady of the Underworld
in our conversation.
And we also have the Lady ofPlenty, maybe plenty of ideas,
plenty of sharing, plenty ofhealing, plenty of disruption,
(02:07):
and change.
Future Bernadette breaking inagain just to explain that I
have a Jade, the an Oracle deckcalled the Jade Oracle, Deities
and Symbols of Ancient Mexico.
(02:28):
It's similar to a tarot carddeck, but a little bit
different.
So those are the cards that I'mreferring to, and prior to our
interviews, both times, or I dida pull, a shuffle through the
cards to see what came up.
So just a little note that ifyou're interested, I will put
the link to the deck in the shownotes, and uh that's to provide
(02:52):
a little bit more context aboutwhat I'm talking about here.
So I thought for this one, Imean, we'll probably go all over
the place because that's justhow we are, but I thought for
our conversation today we couldjust talk a little bit more
about your spiritual role andyour spiritual life.
(03:16):
I know that now you have thebruja aspect, you have the your
curandera.
And so if you could just talkabout the different aspects of
your spirituality, what doesbeing a curandera entail?
But let's start first with justlike pantheons and kind of like
opening with that.
Like how you moved on maybe fromCeltic deities to more and what
(03:40):
that looks like for you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
Sure.
There's this great expression inSpanish that I think helps
explain certain things in thisregard.
So it's la sangre lama, right?
It's like the blood calls.
It refers to ways in which formany of us that feel called to
these different paths, thesecaminos, a lot of times it gets
connected back to your DNA, yourancestry.
(04:05):
And if you think of your yourexistence in space is part of a
lineage, and that lineage goesforwards and backwards and
sideways in time.
So I'm gonna drop a little bitof like quantum physics into
this conversation.
If everything is existing rightnow, then I am also what my
descendants are.
So I am also what my childrenare, I am also what you know my
(04:27):
grandchildren are.
Like I am part of a greaterconnection to my ancestors, I'm
also part of a greaterconnection to the family that
becomes mine right now in whatwe perceive in linear time as
our future, but they're all withme, they're always with me.
So then it starts to make a bitof sense as to like why certain
(04:48):
lineages or pathways call to us.
So I have a mixed background, Ido have Celtic background, I do
have Mesoamerican background,and you know, kind of moving
forward in time, I also haveAfro-Caribbean background, which
is an interesting considerationwhen I then go and explain like
what this all is.
A part of being a bruja and apart of being a curandera is
(05:10):
sometimes you experience time ina way that's maybe very
different than linear time,right?
Where you start to see your andothers, what we perceive as
future, as almost like rightnow.
You start to see what's coming,what's likely, what, and you
live it like sometimes invisions, dreams, but also
(05:33):
visions, you live an experienceof going, like, oh, this is me,
and this is my life, and this iswhat I am, and this is what I'm
going to be.
And so I've had experiences likethat my whole life, and it
doesn't mean that I I guess hadto commit to going down that
path, but it became increasinglyevident to me more than 20 years
ago what was what was on itsway, which is a long time to be
(05:56):
able to start, you know,unfurling what this kind of
practice means.
So I grew up already at homewith herbs and spiritual
practices that would be a partof what we call curanderismo,
right?
So curanderismo brings togetherit's a syncretized belief system
(06:18):
that relates to healing, it hassyncretized beliefs with
Catholicism.
Um, I've also kind of found thatit's in Mexico a safer term than
calling yourself a bruja, right?
Like curanderos and curanderasare well respected as healers.
Sometimes they're an even betteralternative to going to a
hospital or seeing doctorsbecause the thought is that you
(06:41):
know, curanderos and curanderasare going to be able to treat
things that a hospital ortraditional medical practice may
not have a holistic lens on,right?
So there is a belief withincuranderismo that these
imbalances that people areexperiencing that present
themselves as illness or presentthemselves as being unwell, they
(07:03):
could have a host of causes.
Yes, could they be medicalimbalances in the body?
Sure, absolutely.
Could they also havemetaphysical causes?
That too.
When I say metaphysical, youknow, mind, body, spirit, and
could also go down the realm oflike curses, hexes, jealousies,
(07:27):
right?
Like what people call maleoko.
You know, mylohaires, there'slots of different beliefs in
curanderismo basically about howenergy is flowing into the body,
mind, spirit space that is usincorporated.
And so the curanderismopractices aim to bring that back
(07:48):
into balance.
And that could be through herbs,that could be through massage,
right?
There are sobaderas that theirtheir focus is on um massaging
and like moving ummusculoskeletal tissue right
into alignment to help deal withsome of these imbalances.
Um parteras focus on birth, whatin like regular Western medicine
(08:14):
you want to call a midwife.
Like parteras are a huge part ofpreparing um people's bodies for
birth, right?
And even after birth.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
And like caring, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
Platticas, yeah, platicas.
So platicas are ways of usingspeech, conversation again, to
bring balance, to bring release,which if you've ever been to
therapy, you're like, oh, thatsounds familiar.
But it's it's a way to releasewhat we tend to hold in the body
and what we tend to hold inspirit that harms us, is to
(08:46):
release that in healthier ways,like uh de-escalation, like a
conflict resolution whentherapy, you're like, Oh, yeah,
you know, we do this, right?
In in Western medicine, and thenpay like$200 an hour.
Okay, well, Coranderismo doesn'treally gatekeep that and say,
like, oh man, you had to go findsome other person and then pay
them for 45 you know minutes aweek to listen to you talk about
(09:09):
your problems.
You can do that in community,you can heal and resolve some of
these issues without having tostep outside of what your miss.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
So, quick question.
So, some of what I'veexperienced in my own life, I
thought this was just me being aperceptive person.
Like sometimes you can look at achild's face or an adult's face,
and you get a flash of whatthey're gonna look like as an
adult, or in an adult's face, ina situation, you're like, oh, I
(09:41):
see the child in you.
Right?
And you it's not like a seeing,it's just like a it's a it's a
momentary insight into the hurtor the joy or the you know, just
the the parts of that personthat have kind of that are
connected through time.
And then also, as you know, wetalked about it.
(10:04):
I've done massage my whole life,right?
I'm not a trained massagetherapist, but I've been told by
multiple people that I'm muchbetter than a trained massage
therapist.
And one of the things that wasinteresting to me is I always
thought of it as like what I wasdoing, one of my cousins always
asked me, they're like, Oh, canyou like I just it feels so good
when you massage?
I'm like, sure.
And then they got my aunt to uhthey were they kept urging my
(10:28):
aunt.
And I love my aunt very much,but she's a very, very private
person.
And so I actually don't knowvery much about her personal
life at all.
And I distinctly remember shesat down and she was finally,
she said, Oh, okay, sure.
And she sat down in front of me,and I put my hands on her, and I
just instantly was like, This isnot, I'm not welcome.
(10:53):
Like, I can't, there's this willjust feel like any other sort of
massage.
I can't go in.
There's no welcome in.
And that was the first time thatI had ever realized that there
were some people who were closedoff and that it wasn't about
just the massage, that I couldmassage their muscles and it
(11:17):
would be fine, but that therewas a very strong barrier, that
they were just not going to letme in in some other way.
And that was the first time Iever felt like, oh, maybe
something I'm doing is not justmuscles.
SPEAKER_00 (11:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
Is it like that?
Is that kind of a thing?
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
And then some.
So I'll give you the sort of thegamut of like what I've
experienced, you know, doinghealing work, right, with folks.
Is sure you can intersect theirenergy and hit a wall.
You can also hit what feels liketar, what feels like very, very
(11:58):
sticky, dark tar.
I tend to associate that withcancers, right?
Like when people are are dealingwith tumors or cancers, like
sometimes I'll connect intotheir energy, and I'm like, oh
boy.
Um, because I'll feel it likethe way that it's attacking
their system from the inside.
(12:19):
Sometimes what I'll hit istrauma and rage and anger.
And you know, depending on whatthat was, it could be rooted in
different places, it could beall the way at the root.
What you know people describe aschakras, depending on how long
ago something happened and howimpactful it was on them.
Like if it's something that goesway back to childhood, sometimes
(12:39):
I'll hit that explosion umaround what people call the
sacral chakra.
But maybe it's emotional andit's more something from
adulthood, and that might bemore in like the heart areas.
So I've I've definitely workedwith people energetically in
like healing sessions andsettings, just practicing a
(13:00):
sequandera, not also doingbruhia, like just from like the
healing or energy healing side,and I've hit all different kinds
of energetic responses in andaround the body.
And there is an aspect of howsafe somebody feels and how
willing they are to openthemselves.
(13:23):
Like you're saying, some peoplereally just are are hesitant or
afraid, or you know, maybe theyassociate it with something like
deep-seated guilt, they think itmight be evil, and so they just
like close off to it, and allthey want, like you're
mentioning, is a massage, whichI'm definitely not the person
for that job because I don'ttend to touch people.
I think that's meaningful for meto mention is that for me doing
(13:44):
like sobalera type things, Itend to restrict that to my
family or very, very closepeople to me to do that kind of
like you know, touch-relatedenergetic exchange, which is me
trying to be careful andrespectful with like everything
I bring, all of the energies andall of the things that I bring.
Me doing touch is could bereally intense for somebody.
(14:06):
So I tend to hover above them.
Like what people associate withlike Reiki practice, where
you're like not touching thebody, you're generally speaking,
your hands or whatever else useif you use eyes or mouth, like
you're you're in physicalproximity to the person, but
you're not touching them, theymight start faking, like they
might have an emotionalexplosion.
Like when you're moving energyin the body, or you're even
(14:29):
touching on where energy mightbe, it can be really impactful
for the person.
And that doesn't mean don'trelease it, that doesn't mean
don't touch it.
It just means you know,recognize what it is that you're
doing.
If you want something removed,that pathway might not always be
easy to do.
(15:29):
When something becomesuncomfortable.
I think that there should beconsent and understanding in
that process.
Like, consent is everything, andexplain to somebody, hey, when I
read you, when I scan you, likehere's some of the stuff that
comes up.
Can we touch it?
Can we deal with it, right?
Are you gonna be okay with that?
Because everybody comes fromdifferent backgrounds, come from
(15:52):
different life experiences, comefrom different nations in many
cases.
What might be really easy forone person who's like, oh my
god, that's nothing.
Like you're not even touchingme, right?
If they've gone through certaintrauma in life, they might be
like, oh, this is gonna be easylight work, right?
And some other person might bekeenly uncomfortable with you
having your hands hovering overthem.
(16:12):
I've dealt with a little bit ofevery type of reaction to that
gamut.
So I think that what's reallyimportant in in that realm, in
that aspect, is recognizingconsent, um, encouraging people
to be like, hey, let's let'smove through this, like let's
let's deal with it.
Because a cancer metaphor islike if you've got a tumor and I
(16:35):
just go, it's not gonna removethe tumor, you don't want just a
little biopsy, you want thatwhole shit out and you want to
heal afterwards.
So recognizing in thesepractices to be honest, because
sometimes the only way out isthrough.
But making sure that somebody isis at the point of of consenting
(16:58):
to it, because I think one ofthe older styles of this is they
did not give a fuck.
They were like, here's thecurandera, here's the curandero,
they're gonna do whatever you'regonna do, and then you're like,
Oh my god, stuff is justhappening, and then then people
get scared, people freak out,and they get traumatized by the
healing practice.
SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
That was something for real that happened in my
family.
I don't think people weretraumatized, but I think they
were very confused.
So, like the kids would bebrought in, and you know, they'd
be like the curanderas here fromMexico.
We our family had a very strongrelationship with her, and she's
gonna, you know, gonna giveeveryone kuras.
And there was just like nocontext for what was happening.
(17:40):
Right.
And so they were like, Okay, soI wear this, and then that she's
gonna do that, and then whatthat there was an egg, like
what's happening?
And if you like, I was theresometimes, but I wasn't like I
never actually saw any of therituals because I wasn't the
focus of them.
So I would be in the house withmy little science fiction book
being like, I don't know what'shappening.
(18:00):
And so I think thatunfortunately, I think if there
had been the ability for peopleto be more open and have more
knowledge around what this isand why it's important, I think
that they would have been moreeffective because it's kind of
like if somebody just gives youa medical treatment, but they
don't talk to you about whyyou're sick and what's happening
(18:20):
and what this is gonna do foryou.
Maybe it'll work, right?
But as we know, the placeboeffect is very strong.
If you know it's going to work,if you know it's supposed to be
helpful, that can help boost theeffects of even Western
medication.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
I would go far beyond even.
I think that people mistake theplacebo effect as a as like a
dummy outcome.
And I'm like, no, the placeboeffect is everything.
You want to heal, you need tofirmly believe in your healing.
You want something to make adifference, you need to make
that your whole reality.
Somebody could practice thebest, most fancy form of
(18:57):
medicine on you.
And if you have convincedyourself that you are not going
to get better, your body isgonna block the benefits of
whatever that treatment couldhave been.
So to me, like the first placesomebody needs to be at is be
like, I firmly believe in mywellness, I firmly believe in my
wholeness, I am whole, right?
(19:20):
I am well, and holding thatbelief in whatever treatment you
are exploring, I think is super,super important because
otherwise you're using your ownenergy to shoot yourself in the
foot, right?
It benefits you zero to go intoany type of healing or medical
experience and be like, thisshit isn't gonna work, right?
(19:42):
Like it really is not helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Also, you can go in, as I experienced with a shaman
and Bali, with a very jadedattitude that this shit is just
for show and for money, and thenyou get your spirits ass kicked,
like I did.
So watch it when you think thatyou're being so cool and that
(20:07):
you're making fun of all thepeople that do spiritual
tourism, and then you go and youget your clock cleaned.
Spiritually speaking, it'sreally self-shattering
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
I I I I enjoy I'm gonna say shout out to some of
those folks out here in themetaphysical sphere.
They have this fun phrase theycall ego death, and I'm like,
ow, you guys are so funny.
I was like, yeah, there is nolike maximum stage of of
whatever they want to call egodeath.
(20:44):
It's all it's all differentlevels of awareness and
self-awareness and experience ofself.
But those moments of release,whatever you want to call them,
of releasing into the void, ofreleasing into what your
experience is of learning fromit and and not holding on to
egotistical expectations.
(21:05):
Yeah, no, I think that's allreally healthy, I think that's
all really helpful, you know.
Uh, and coming out on the otherside of that, growing, having a
growth mindset.
For some people, that does takebeing humbled.
For other people, it might bethat they're just more ready to
accept and keep moving.
But I think again, the more youframe yourself from a
(21:26):
perspective of everything I'mdoing right now is good for me,
like everything that I am takingon right now in this spiritual
experience, in this healingexperience, and this
guarandarismo experience, likethis is medicine for me, I am
well, I am growing towardsbetter harmony with my body,
with my spirit, with my mind.
Like, all of that is a betterplace to start from for your
(21:49):
well-being than I would say someof the alternatives, which I've
also experienced, and like yousaid, results may vary on how
much you get your butt kicked.
Yeah.
When you when you come at itwith that approach, but the
suffering part's kind ofoptional, you don't have to
choose it.
(22:10):
You can you can flow through itin a different way, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
But it's well, it's like being picked up by a river,
you can just sort of relax back,or you can just like try to
fight every second and you getknocked and turned upside down,
right?
It's not gonna be something.
Do you so a couple minutes agoyou made a distinction between
brujeria and curanderismo, andso can you talk a little bit
(22:34):
about for you what thatdistinction is between the two?
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
The degree to which I'm moving with more spiritual
allies and engaging in practicesthat would move beyond the
gentler approaches, that's sortof what I'm categorizing and
what I'm seeing right now isburujia.
But I think of when I think ofcoranderismo, I'm thinking of
(23:02):
something that is exclusively ormore exclusively for healing,
for remedying right situations.
And I mean, can remedy somesituations, but it can also it
can also be war, it can also bea tataquieto, you know what I'm
saying?
Like it is not it is not asfocused on just the healing per
(23:31):
se, right?
And I think that you know, oneof my noticings and shifts from
Western white witchcraft,whatever you want to call that
is, is there was like this hugeemphasis for some and like, oh
my god, do no harm, like do noharm, don't, you know, only only
white magic now is like I don'tlike that phrase also sounds mad
(23:53):
racist, right?
Because what are youimplicating?
You're implicating that thepractices of Afro-Caribbean
people are somehow dark, wrong,evil.
We're just gonna you know erasethe fact that people were um
also enslaved and it was theirresponse to being enslaved.
Like, since when is you knowresisting your oppressor dark or
(24:15):
evil, right?
If that didn't apply to you, ifyou didn't have that experience,
who the fuck are you to say thatno, no, no, you you should only
use white light and sage on youroppressor?
Fuck out of here.
Fuck out of here.
I'm sorry.
Anything that moves towardsbalance against oppression, it's
(24:40):
really easy for people to paintthat as like, oh my god, but
they're victims because peopledid witchcraft on them.
I was like, those motherfuckersdeserved it.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Well, and I think I think that the the white light
do no harm thing, I think thatactually came from a
misunderstanding andincorporation of karma.
Because all of the like kind ofwhite witchcraft, the
Gardinarian stuff is anamalgamation of a lot of
different mystery traditionsthat includes like a heavy
(25:12):
amount of Hindu philosophy asthey understood it, right?
And this idea of karmicretribution, because when you
start talking about karma, karmais very complicated, it's not as
direct as people think.
And so I think a lot of thatcomes from a misunderstanding of
the principles of karma.
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Sure.
I think sometimes, and this issort of where my line of
resistance has been, I tend todraw a lot of parallels between
like Bruhiria and otherpractices and like activism,
right?
So there are people in activismthat like they only want to do a
protest that has been approved,that has a permit, and they will
(25:50):
only walk on the sidewalk andlike no bad words, guys, and
like you know, we're gonna havepre-approved signs and we're
only gonna march on thepre-approved route.
And then there are others of usin the activism world that are
like, wow, that sounds madperformative and really helpful
to your oppressors, that you donothing to make them
(26:13):
uncomfortable.
If anything, they're like, hey,we're your oppressors, and you
can only color inside theselines and you can only use the
you know the color green.
And you're like, Yes, Matabas,I'm only gonna do what you told
me to.
How the fuck is that protest?
If you don't disrupt, if youdon't push back, if you don't
push back on the harm that'sbeing caused, on the oppression,
(26:35):
or even on their right to haveauthority, right, in oppressive
ways, when the fuck did thatbecome protest?
That's not protest.
Protest is disruptive, right?
Resistance is disruptive to theoppressor.
So, you know, I I take thatmentality back to the practices
(26:56):
that I'm discussing.
It's like, are therecircumstances that I think 100%
call for curranderismo?
Yes.
Are there circumstances that Ithink call for brujeria or like
more intense brujeria?
A thousand percent.
Everything's gotta be withconsent, though.
I'm not gonna go start a processinvolving somebody else's life
(27:18):
without their explicit consentand understanding about you know
what the benefits and riskscould be, right?
What is involved along the way,and that make it very, very
clear they can pull back consentat any point, right?
Like this is not something thatI need to be on a crusade on
(27:39):
doing for them, right?
I do, I do my own shit for me, Ido my own shit for for my own,
for my household, for my family.
But if it's gonna involvesomebody else, they should have,
in my mind, a very clearunderstanding of what we're
getting into and what could be apart and parcel of what that
brings into being.
(27:59):
And I think that's where it'slike when you're talking about
karmic restribution, you know,I'll give you an example.
And Brujidia, don't go fuckingsearching for justice if you
know that you've been on doingsome dirt shit yourself, right?
If you were doing dirty shit,and then you want to go after
somebody for justice, well, andyou want to go work with an
entity that's focused onjustice, and you were out here
(28:22):
in these streets doing unjustthings, maybe think on that
before you go down that path.
Because now you're acceleratinghow quickly the arc of justice
also sweeps back towards you.
So that's where I think the theconsideration should be in terms
of like you know, is it light?
Is it dark?
I'm like, uh-uh.
(28:42):
It's balance, it's aboutbalance, right?
And so being mindful is whatyou're asking for something else
the same that you would wantasked for yourself.
Do I want for you what I wantfor me?
Like that, I think is a veryreasonable question to ask
yourself before entering intoany type of stage of of
(29:04):
burrujeria.
Is it's not about you know,white this or dark that or black
this or no, because that alsogets into like a bunch of racial
connotations that I think aresuper racist that are that are
anti-black, right?
Anti-indigenous.
I go back to it's balance, it'sfairness.
(29:25):
So this is why I think when itcomes to brujeria, it's like
we're having a very differentconversation, right?
We're going from something thatmight feel like in curanderismo
to be maybe a very purifying,very healing experience to like
in brujeria.
How far are you willing to go?
How much justice are you willingto take back?
(30:30):
Because in many situations,especially when people want to
explore choosing Viru Khariria,sometimes I tell people, you
don't need witchcraft, you needtherapy.
Like you really need to reflecton what were your choices, what
were your actions, what wereyour words that led to said
scenario that now you arelooking for rukheria to go and
resolve that.
(30:51):
Now, in some situations, thatmight not be safe.
So I'll give the example ofdomestic violence.
Well, if the if the situation isDV, and I personally am not into
like cops resolving things, thenI'm not going to tell somebody,
oh, but did you report it topolice?
No.
And I can think of manyscenarios where that would not
be safe.
If you're an immigrant rightnow, you probably want zero
(31:12):
involvement with anything lawenforcement because it could
lead to your arrest, it couldlead to your detention, even if
you were the victim, it couldlead to your immediate
deportation because of the Lakeand Riley Act.
And I could go on.
That could be like a whole otherpodcast.
But the point is, I understandwhy in that situation, if
somebody's dealing with DV,their next step might be like
(31:32):
brujeria and not going to a cop.
Right?
Because they need to be safe,they need justice, they need
protection.
That's gonna be, and and that'sgonna be a theoretically
non-confrontational way to goabout it because they could be
putting themselves in dangertrying to confront the person
that is actively causing theharm, the violence, the abuse,
(31:55):
etc.
So, you know, Buruhiria iscomplex.
You know, we tend to consult, atleast in my in my pathway.
So I'm a palera, right?
We tend to consult always andfirst as to one, whether we can
consult the person, right, andintervene.
What's a palera?
A palera, somebody who practicesa form of palo.
(32:15):
So palo is an Afro-Caribbeanfaith, it's a dipork faith.
SPEAKER_01 (32:20):
It's based out of sorry, I was like palo, you mean
like stick?
Like, yeah, you come, you'regonna get.
SPEAKER_00 (32:26):
Well, there's a reason why it's called palo
because we work with trees,because we work with sacred
trees among other things.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Oh, this totally fits because I think I remember
you exploring druidism.
This is correct.
So in between, right?
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Yeah, how different parts of the world connections
with the trees, sacred trees,and the abilities of sacred
trees can be used for a wholehost of things.
Can they be used for healing?
Sure.
Can they be used for Tate Kieto?
Absolutely.
They have lots of differentuses.
So in Palo, we have manydifferent trees that are worked,
that branches from those treesor the trees themselves are part
(33:04):
of the work of what we do.
It's also it heavily involvesthe dead.
Um, there are traditions thatcame out of the Congo, that when
people were trafficked from theCongo, they were often
trafficked up into West Africa,and then they were brought to
Cuba.
And so, depending on your Caminoand Palo, there are different
like lineages in Palo.
(33:24):
There's Palo Mayombe, well, inCuba, it was called like Palo
Monte, there's palomayombe, palobriumba, um paloquimbisa.
There are a lot of differentbranches in Palo.
And so the branches vary interms of like do they syncretise
more beliefs?
Do they involve Ocha, which isYudua beliefs and practices that
(33:45):
people in our side of the oceanassociate with santeria?
Right?
So there are branches of Palothat incorporate elements of
Ocha, incorporate elements ofChristianity, incorporate
elements of voodoo, incorporateelements of espiritismo, and in
one branch incorporate elementsof Awakua, a secret society that
was all black in Cuba.
Um, and there are some that justmore specifically are reglacongo
(34:09):
that are more centrically basedin the the spiritual practices
of the people from the Congo,right?
So I practice one of those, oneof those branches that would
make me a palera.
And so what I'm saying to you islike in my particular tradition,
for me to intervene and getinvolved with somebody, you
know, for the purpose ofRukeria, first I consult as to
(34:32):
whether I can work with them,like whether this is a good
idea, whether this is a goodfit.
And then, you know, there's aconsultation about what's going
on, which you know, if we wereto apply that kind of like to
Guranderismo practices, is likethat's kind of like the
diagnosis of going, okay, well,or just I mean, if you're a
(34:54):
Western medical practitioner,you have a consultation.
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
You talk to the person about what's happening.
SPEAKER_00 (34:58):
Yep.
And so the the thing about Palois you're you're doing energetic
exchange just by consultingbecause you're asking the
entities that you work with tohelp guide your scope and
understanding of a person'ssituation, right?
So there has to be energeticexchange given for you to do
(35:20):
that.
That can be money, some peopleask for other things depending
on what their needs are.
Some people might just ask foran energetic exchange that's
given to the spirits that theywork with.
It doesn't have to be money, butlet's say it often is.
And that's just to to, like Isaid, do a consultation to see
what what's going on.
(35:40):
Some of us in the Palo world,just by talking to somebody, our
muertos will speak to us.
This is a longer story aboutpalo, but we are we'll say very
closely bonded with the deadthat we work with, and so
sometimes our muertos will justactively go, hey, this is what's
going on, right?
We'll start to see it and hearit and understand it without
(36:02):
even going through the formalprocess of consultation.
I mean, I guess it's up to eachpalero as to whether they want
to speak on what they see andthey hear, even without being in
a formal setting of consulta,because it'll happen anyways,
even when we don't mean for itto, right?
Like we'll walk into situationsand we'll become immediately
(36:23):
aware of stuff that's going onwith people that in some cases
maybe they would rather notreveal, or maybe they're not
even aware of.
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
I have a girlfriend who is very cautious about when
and how she enters graveyards.
SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Because she says it's very loud.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
Very it can be, you know.
And and I think people also inthe West think that the dead
only stick around in graveyards,and uh no, they're all over the
place.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Yes, she does get interrupted in other places as
well.
But I think she says graveyardsare particularly noisy.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
They can be, they can be.
Um, hospitals are super noisy,hospitals are super duper noisy.
Any type of complex where peopleare harmed, tortured,
interrogated, so that would belike prisons and jails, like
also just kind of depends.
But there's also people thatthey just have like their own
(37:19):
familial dead or their own likefriendly dead, or somebody's put
on what on them, not sofriendly, that they're carrying
around on their back, on theirshoulders.
So the world of the dead is areally complex thing to get
into.
Like I said, that could thatcould be like a whole other
conversation.
But the point is is that Ipersonally proceed very
(37:40):
cautiously with like, okay,every every step of this along
the way is there's gotta beconsent.
I should not be trauma blastingsomebody with something that I
become aware of just by lookingat them, and just because I have
the ability to like listen orhear something very personal and
private about their life.
You know, I'm a big believeragain, and consent that they
want that information.
(38:01):
Um, they want to do energeticexchange for it, but they don't
have to.
That's totally fine.
And then what will come up isusually a okay, well, here's
some viable pathways to thenchange whatever those
circumstances are that are notideal, right?
Because usually what comes up ina consulta is what might be
(38:25):
behind the problem or problemsthat somebody is dealing with,
the entities that I work with ummay ask for certain things, and
that's that kind of is whatcomes out of the consulta.
It's like, okay, well, what doyou want in exchange to help
resolve this scenario?
And Walo is like now, it's likeright now, right?
(38:46):
You know, and each type ofruggeria works differently.
There are types of rugiria whereyou are giving offerings and
you're asking for things, andit's not super different than
like people lighting candles forCatholic saints.
You know what I mean?
Like you're asking forintercession, you're giving an
offering, you're asking forthere to be change in that
situation.
It may or may not come.
(39:07):
And there are forms of ruggeriawhere you're negotiating with an
entity, and they may take thenegotiation and accept it, and
it may blow up in your face,right?
Like rukeriya is not a monolith.
Each pantheon, each type ofentity that you work with,
whether you allow for thoseentities to mount you or not,
(39:29):
because there's like, forexample, the branch of a speedy
thesmal where people will bringdown different entities and then
like host them in their bodies,like that could be very
different than maybe somethingthat I might be doing.
But a belief that we do have inPhilo is that things happen
quickly.
So once you you consent to,like, yeah, I'm gonna do this
thing, I'm gonna give this inexchange, things tend to move
(39:51):
very quickly because the cost ofwhat something may be to
resolve, not everybody's readyfor that price.
I don't know if you've ever readthe short story The Monkey's
Paw, where this guy really wantsthe money for something to come
out of it, and then there's atragic accident that affects his
son.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
Well, and there's there's a lot of cautionary
tales like that, like thepicture of Dorian Gray, the
monkey's paw.
So there's little hints of thatin popular culture.
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
And I think that that is a very real way to
consider how some types ofruhiria can work.
Is it depending on what you'reasking for, depending on the
intensity, depending on thelevel of energy that it's going
to require to shift something tothe direction that you want it
to go in, to the outcome thatyou want, the ask could be very,
(40:43):
very high.
Um, and it could the the theterm that we use is secar.
It could really dry you out.
It could dry out thepractitioner or practitioners
that are attempting to do thatwork on your behalf.
So, you know, there shouldalways, in my mind, be a
consideration of like, is thecost worth it?
(41:04):
Is the price worth it?
I personally prefer only to workon the side of things that I'm
really not about causing harm toinnocent people.
One, I'm absolutely patentlyagainst any harm to minors or
children.
I don't like doing anythingthat's gonna cause harm to
innocent people, to thirdparties, collateral damage.
(41:28):
I don't like any of that.
I personally try to operate witha conscience, right?
And be careful and consideratein what comes up in consultation
and in sort of deep reflectionof like, okay, if I go down this
road, it's war.
If I go down this road, it'sgonna impact this person really
profoundly.
They could touch whatever ismost precious to them, right?
(41:51):
That's how some of this works.
So to me, it's like you'reputting the onus of your work on
having a conscience or not, anddeciding for yourself how
willing you are, how far you'rewilling to go to bring an
outcome to reality.
(42:11):
Because anything is possible,everything has a cost.
But if you have been deep in thepractice of oppressing and
harming people, I am not of thebelief that you get to go
scot-free.
That everybody needs to have kidgloves with you when you have
been part of trafficking andharming and abusing and
(42:33):
oppressing people, right?
Like I just it I don't share thebelief that you know kid gloves
should be for you.
There are other belief systemsthat exist in the world that do
think that everybody deserves,you know, forgiveness and
gentleness, no matter what theydo to others.
I'm not here to say that that'snot right.
(42:54):
That's people's beliefs.
I, you know, like I try to berespectful as much as possible,
that there are plenty of faithsand practices in the world that
have a very like turn the othercheek and then some, right?
Forgive and then some.
And I go, if that is what bringsyou closer to the divine, if
that is what brings you closerto enlightenment, if that is
(43:15):
what brings you closer tooneness, that is beautiful.
And you should keep doing that.
SPEAKER_01 (43:20):
As long as you're actually turning the other
cheek, right?
And being gentle, which not alot of that going on in the
world right now.
But then again, are they reallyliving the faith that they
profess?
And I would say 95% of themknow.
SPEAKER_00 (43:36):
Maybe.
I mean, I I guess I'm justwilling to admit I'm a little
more spiritual gangster aboutshit.
Where I'm like, I was like, I amhere for all the people that are
gentle and kind and forgiving.
And I respect and protect theirright to do that, but knuck if
(43:57):
you buck.
Like if you're if you're comingfor any of these innocent people
that are not striking back atyou, that are not causing you
harm, and you know, you're justgonna keep on harming, and
you're just gonna keep onoppressing, you're just gonna
keep on abusing.
SPEAKER_01 (44:14):
I mean Well, that's how and that's how bullies and
that's how dictators stay inpower, is people don't stand up.
Right.
They're afraid and they hunkerdown and they try and keep
quiet.
And I understand why, you know.
I do, I have young children, andso I have to make the
(44:37):
calculation of how much I wantto be involved and speaking out
and speaking up and what thatmeans for my children, and when
it's safe, and when it, youknow, how comfortable I am with
what could happen, because Ithink that things are not moving
in a very positive direction.
SPEAKER_00 (44:53):
Right.
And so I think that as a mom, Iam one step even beyond that in
the scale of me being like, Iwant my children to grow up on
the world where they see thatmom absolutely fought back.
SPEAKER_01 (45:07):
And that's the thing, right?
In five years, in ten years, in15 years, I don't want them to
say, What did you do?
And I said, Well, I stayed safe.
And that's what I did.
I stayed quiet and I kept myhead down and I didn't say
anything.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
Yep.
Listen, I'm I'm pretty sure it'snot lost upon my family right
now, the type of person I am,the best of all the things right
now.
But I'd say for me, that thatlegacy of what I chose and how I
chose to live, and again, wherethat intersecting is also marked
with you know, my pathways inactivism, my pathways in
(45:45):
Buddhitiya, like, yeah, no, hellyeah, I want my kids to know.
Hell yeah, I want my grandkidsto know.
This is what I was about.
That we do not stay silent inthe face of oppression, we do
not stay actionless in the faceof oppression.
And maybe not everybody iscalled to that, and that's okay.
(46:07):
But for those of us that arecapable, for those that are
willing, like I said, mount upand not be fearful and not give
into the hopelessness and thehelplessness that things cannot
change, right?
I think that that for mepersonally is a huge comfort in
embrujeria, in that I don't needto be the wealthiest person, I
(46:28):
don't need to be a senator, Idon't need to be a CEO, I don't
need to be any of the thingsthat we tend to associate with
influence and power.
I can be exactly what I am, andthat is plenty.
When you start to understand howthese worlds work, you start to
understand how these practiceswork, like, listen, we are
(46:48):
plenty to go and deal with.
And the world doesn't often knowhow to stop us, which is really
nice, right?
Because some of these practiceshave become closed and hidden
over the years, and also peoplediscount them and they don't
think that they're real.
I'm like, keep on believing thatthey're not real.
That is fine by me.
I do not need to be themissionary of all things
(47:11):
brujeria to convince you of whatwe can do.
It's actually better for me ifyou don't think we can do
anything, because then you don'tknow how to stop it.
So just keep on living in thatblissful ignorance that works
for me.
SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
This week, the week I am recording, saw an
escalation of communitydisappearances, the blatant
violations of human rights, andincreasing public corruption.
Brown folks of all immigrationstatuses, citizens or not,
undocumented or not, are beinghunted while the Trump
administration flies in 200,000white South Africans as
refugees.
Make no mistake, whitenationalism is the agenda and
(48:40):
the purpose to what ishappening.
Fortifying ourselves spirituallyand being ready to speak truth
to power is necessary when wehave the Gestapo loose on the
streets.
Keep yourself safe and rememberthat the power of the people is
greater than the people inpower.
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