August 24, 2023 • 53 mins
An interview with Behike DJ Sanakori about Taino Revivalism and NYC Puerto Rican identity.
Where you can find him:
https://tainoradio.com/
https://www.instagram.com/tainoradio1491/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4CTiG6MaxP1zml6ADJsHBA
https://www.facebook.com/NYCIndigenousMobileLibrary
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicte-Ha (00:01):
So I want to welcome everybody to this very special.
Event, this very specialinterview, my first interview
with somebody outside of thepodcast.
And I want to welcome DJSanakori, who's the Behike of
the Araike Yukayak TainoIndigenous Caribbean Tribal
Nation.
(00:21):
He is the tribal founder and amember of the nation.
And he's also the founder ofthe Taino Earth Prayer Lodge
Society, Tainoradio.
com and the Chorako Book.
And so I want to welcome you tothe podcast DJ Santa Cody, and
I want to thank you for being onCasa Cozumel and sharing your
(00:43):
wisdom and your experience withus.
DJ Sanakori (00:46):
Wow.
Well, my phone.
Thank you.
It's an honor to be here,Bernadette, man.
This is great.
Like, you know, I'm excited andI can't wait to share and thank
you for giving me that talkingstick so I can share, you know.
Nicte-Ha (00:58):
We talked about it just a couple minutes ago, but I
would love it if you could openup with just some words to your
ancestors or to the gods orwhoever you want to talk to to
bless us in this conversationand bless the people who are
going to be listening to ourinterview to open their ears and
open our mouths.
DJ Sanakori (01:15):
Oh, sure.
Thank you.
I have a calling song that I, II call upon the, the, the Earth
Mother, the Goddess, Creatress,Atave, in a Tainui way, and
also she had a son.
Her name is Yokahu.
And that's in our Tainoworldview.
She's a mother and she also hasa son and they both co created
(01:36):
the universe and they still withus.
So okama means listen, listen.
So we listen.
And then we feel this power,Taino Ti.
Wokama, Wokama, Atame, Watame.
Wokama, Wokama.
(01:57):
The creative creator and thehelper with.
(02:50):
As we speak, we give honor toour dear holy Lord.
Alright, thank you.
Nicte-Ha (03:03):
Thank you very much.
That was beautiful.
DJ Sanakori (03:05):
Oh, you're welcome.
Thank you for the honor.
Nicte-Ha (03:09):
So, I got chills.
DJ Sanakori (03:13):
It's good on a hot day.
It's good to have children on ahot day.
Nicte-Ha (03:16):
I am super curious about your background and, just
your family, your ancestors.
So if you can talk a little bitabout your journey and your
ancestors journey, I think.
I am familiar a little bit,look we can get into it later,
I'm familiar a little bit withthe history of the Taino people,
(03:40):
but I think a lot of people areoften taught that there's no
Taino people left.
And so if you can talk a littlebit about your ancestors in
your history, that would bewonderful.
Cause I think we would all liketo know how you came to this
and who your people are.
DJ Sanakori (03:56):
Oh, I appreciate it.
I appreciate it.
You know, I like to start withmy father because my father, he
was born in Gaiape.
Borinquen is the indigenousword for Puerto Rico.
And he was 17.
No, I want to say he was 16years old, turning 17 when he
came from Brooklyn, New York, hewent back to Puerto Rico
because he fell in love with mymom who was visiting during the
(04:19):
summer break.
And she was visiting her, herolder sister.
My mom's from Guanica.
There's a two Taino words,Cayey and Guanica, and that's
the Southwest region.
Guanica, it's a beach, kind ofbeach area, faces the ocean
leading towards the SouthAmerica.
And then my father's in theinterior.
(04:40):
So he fell in love.
He went to Guanica looking formy, his girlfriend, that he fell
in love with, who had to returnback to Puerto Rico.
So we hitchhiked from San Juan,Puerto Rico, four hours to
Guanica.
Yeah, she was, I believe shewas 16.
Yeah, he was 17.
So they fell in love.
According to my mother, I wasconceived in Guanica.
(05:03):
So, so like most traditionalfamilies, you know, once you get
pregnant, that's it, man.
You got to get married.
So they, so they got married inBrooklyn, New York.
So I was like, well, maybeeight months, she was like eight
months pregnant.
She gave birth to me.
So I believe, cause I've beento Guanica many times and it
feels like home.
I believe that desire, thatyearning to return back to the
(05:25):
island.
Was, was instilling me throughmy mother and dad, you know,
and, unfortunately my fatherdied at 41.
He was, you know, he died avery tragic death and my
mother's still alive.
She's in her late seventies,living, still living in
Brooklyn, New York.
She never returned back toGuanica.
So she sees me as the, theradical one, because I always
(05:49):
want to teach this, what we callTaino culture.
And so what happened was, afterI was born, my great
grandmother, who was born inCalle Puerto Rico, Borinquen,
she made the decision to raiseme.
And I know that sounds cruel,but back then, back in the
(06:11):
sixties and fifties, you know, Iwas born in the sixties when
grandma spoke, no one questionedit.
And many times when I sharedthis story, they were like,
what?
No one called ACS, you know,protect us children, protect the
services.
It's not man.
When the matriarch speaks.
You know, that's it.
But it kind of led me to ajourney of, shamanism and what
(06:35):
they call, the, the medicinepath, because my
great-grandmother was what theycall a spiritualist ra, also
midwife, you know.
So from birth I was able toexperience a lot of the stuff
that she did, and unfortunatelyshe did it hidden cause in New
(06:57):
York back then.
You know, the church was verystrong, very influential, the
Roman Catholic church.
it was seen as brujeria or likeevil worship.
So my great grandmother had todo this in hidden.
So being a little bratty kid,spoiled kid, I always was behind
her watching all her ritualsand stuff like that.
Now I learned this later onwhen I was a teenager, because I
(07:21):
remember women coming to thehouse every Saturday.
Many of them came crying.
Many of them left crying.
But my great grandmother alwaysspent time with them the whole
day.
And she always had her plantmedicines and so on.
And they always went to thebathroom and I always found that
strange.
So when I asked later on inlife, I, you know what I mean?
When I became a young adult.
(07:42):
I asked my great aunt, why didshe always take those women into
the bathroom and it was cryingand, and then she would console
them.
She says, Oh, she wasperforming abortions.
Like what?
And this is before the Roeversus Wade, you know, in the
sixties.
So she was doing it in atraditional way.
And I remember her, you know,consoling them and giving them
(08:05):
the plant medicines and stuff.
It was like, wow.
So I remember that everySaturday And I would go with her
to buy the medicines and stuff.
She always had her saints, butwithin those saints, it was a
lot different from when I wouldgo to church, they were the same
saints, but the ritual wasdifferent.
So she always used like acigar.
She always fed the saints, youknow, she always had these
(08:28):
special prayers.
And she even had this little,entity.
Now, when I was a little kid, Ithought it was a monster.
You know, I was always afraidof it.
I realized this was a ritualthat she, she performed every
year, every year.
But basically what I wasexperiencing was an indigenous
spirituality that was hidden,either fear of Catholicism, fear
(08:50):
of family, what they would say,like, we're in a new world now,
we just don't do these thingsanymore.
And I used to hear relatives,yelling at her saying, this is
not Puerto Rico.
You don't do these things here.
This is New York.
Nicte-Ha (09:01):
Yeah.
It sounds actually very closeto like a candomblé or with the
blend, like with the Catholicsaints, it sounds a lot like
African diaspora traditions aswell that I know came into
central and South America withthe slave trade
DJ Sanakori (09:15):
Well, I, I always start like in recent history,
but if you go back 500 years,530 years, you had a very
ruthless, Roman Catholic churchled by late medieval politics.
If you were caught doing theseceremonies, you will be killed
on sight.
So a lot of that secrecydefinitely.
Kept it going.
(09:36):
And, and out of all thecultures that went through
Puerto Rico, went to theDominican Republic, Cuba, you
know, the Taino people they keptit quiet.
They kept it a secret.
They still keep it a secret.
Nicte-Ha (09:48):
Is that something you run into being out talking about
your heritage, talking aboutTaino spiritual practices?
Do you still run into a lot ofpeople who have that kind of
shame or fear?
And, or do you find that peopleare starting to get more
interested in it?
DJ Sanakori (10:06):
I think, I think there's a lot of of more
interest, but in my experience,so people that I I've, I've had
the privilege to learn underit's interesting that when you
never find them on social media,you will never find them on
Facebook.
You know, they're still veryhidden and they feel the shame
that, fellow Taino people or theindigenous peoples who are
(10:28):
trying to teach, who are tryingto offer this medicine are
selling it for profit as abusiness.
And that's kind of a no no sothe people I'm referring to are
traditional people, you know,the last thing they will do is
sell medicine or sell rituals.
So when I'm taught, they alwaystell me, you know, you don't
charge money for this.
(10:48):
If you do something, I'm notresponsible.
What can happen to you?
You know, it's, it's, it's likethat stern kind of ancient way,
it's interesting.
It's a bit controversial now,you know, about how to deal with
that in modern times, but but Iwas always taught, like, if you
can't organize a ceremony onyour own, don't do it, and a lot
(11:10):
of it's like, don't offend thespirits, you know, don't offend
the ancestors, don't offend God.
So, it's interesting because alot of people think we're
extinct.
A lot of people think we'reghosts, you know, we don't
exist.
And a lot of that came from thestories of Columbus and his
goons.
They decimated what we callthe, the tribal living style,
(11:32):
the politics, the socialstructure, and one of the things
that he commissionedimmediately was, we need to
learn their religion, we need tolearn their world view, so we
can better divide them, and whatwe have right now in modern
times is work by Ramon Panay,Panay, who was a friar, more
(11:54):
like a lay brother, Not apriest.
So he interviewed chiefs andmedicine people.
And basically his question was,who's your God?
How do you pray?
How do you worship?
You know?
And then he came to thatreport, went back to Columbus.
Smallpox nearly exterminatednot only the Taino people, but
(12:14):
most indigenous populationsafter the 1500s.
But what a lot of people don'ttalk about, smallpox did not
exterminate the indigenouspeoples.
And I credit that to theBajiques, the medicine people,
the Bulanderos.
They must have figured out acure, to keep our people alive.
Cause right now it's fastforward.
(12:35):
2000s when the, ancestry.
com, the 23andme, you know,that it was like the style to
get a DNA test, right?
The craze.
That's it.
The craze.
So, the companies themselveswere like, yo, wait a minute.
You know, there's indigenous.
Caribbean DNA on the modernpeople.
Wait, I skipped one importantman.
(12:57):
His name is Dr.
He was from the University ofMayaguez.
And in 1992, during the 500year celebration of the
Americas, Puerto Rico, DominicanRepublic, they're all
celebrating Columbus.
There were these bones that wasgiven to Dr.
Fusado, who's a geneticist.
They found these bones at aconstruction site somewhere.
(13:20):
I think it was in San Juan.
And nobody, no museum wantedthese bones because they were
pretty much like rumbled and itwas no significant to the, you
know, there was no appeal tothem to put a museum, whatever.
So he took the bones.
And he got a grant to do a DNAstudies on his bones.
So he carbon dated them like,1400s, right?
(13:44):
Common era.
And guess what happened?
He took the DNA samples of hisPhD students who were Puerto
Ricans, you know, all different.
Color shades, you know, inPuerto Rico, you can find a
white person, a black person atthe end, you know, brown skin.
And guess what happened?
(14:04):
60% match those bones.
So he's like, what the hell?
60% on the maternal line maxmatched my students.
So then he got more grantmoney.
And then little by little,those percentages were going up.
So he was the first pioneer tothe Juan Cruz shadow to really
(14:27):
blow it up.
Like, Oh, damn.
You know, the modern PuertoRican, when we say qua, we still
carry the dna and I love how 23and me give you a timeline and
they tell you exactly the, whenthe mixture occur and like for
my bloodline, the mixturebecame, the mix became 17
hundreds when, my Taino ancestormix to a Jewish person
(14:50):
actually.
And they mark it off and I'msaying, wait a minute, 1700s.
According to Columbus, theTaino exterminated 20 years
after the invasion.
Right.
Right.
So how can someone be living inthe 1700s, a Taino, right?
Full-blooded Taino, they say,right?
And then more DNA samples cameout and you saw 18 hundreds,
(15:13):
1850s, you know, so there isdefinitely this myth that the
Tainos were exterminated, Ipersonally was interviewing a
person who's 97.
Mm-hmm.
from Dominican Republic.
She had a lot of indigenous,worldview in her ancestry in, in
her apartment.
The alters and all that andthen so she's 97 then her mom.
(15:35):
I think she told me she'sliving to the 90s So now you're
going back 200 years, right?
And she said she knew hergrandmother.
250 She remembers her motherspeaking about her grandmother
Sorry about how they how theyworship how they set up the
altar and when I saw the altar Iknow most of the history of
(15:56):
what the Spaniards recorded,right?
Everything I knew from theserecordings that they witnessed
was in this woman's apartment.
And this woman had no idea whoRamon by name was.
You know, she didn't know, shedidn't have any access to these
writings.
She wasn't educated per se.
But she was living it.
You know?
She's living it.
Through the years I met theseelders, they won't tell you
(16:19):
they're you know, becausethat's, again, that's that
mindset, you know, you justdon't say that, but you hear
them say enio, you hear them saythes, the ancestors, you know,
you know.
Many people will commune withthem.
There's a lot of people inPuerto Rico have that, gift of
being one with the earth, andbeing one with the tree people,
(16:40):
the waters, the flowers, theplants, they can cure That's
very much alive.
None of that was, is extinct.
There's people that can stillset your broken bones in place
through traditional indigenoustechniques.
Unfortunately, our, our mainritual was the Cahoba ritual,
(17:01):
which was a, so who's in a gym?
Well, that's what thescientists say.
It's, it's a, it's a medicinethat has contains the DMT
similar to Yopo.
In South America, andayahuasca, all similar.
Right.
Right.
That, unfortunately thatlineage was broken, but we also
have other ceremonies.
That was stood the test oftime.
Like for example, the, publicceremony that was everyone
(17:24):
participated and basically itwas centered on dancing and
singing.
So I don't know if you nevermet a Caribbean person who
doesn't like to sing a dance.
Right.
Right.
Nicte-Ha (17:33):
Yeah.
I mean, for sure.
Music, and dance is sointegral.
The best music comes from theCaribbean.
You know,
DJ Sanakori (17:41):
that's right.
Our whole tradition of Sasaand, you know, the Maraca, the
Maraca is rooted in indigenousculture, the Guido, that's
indigenous, it's all into a mix,you know, but that was our,
that was our spirituality.
We, we will get together as a,as a tribe and sing and dance,
the medicine person will sharethe stories.
And in modern Puerto Rico, inmy experience, when you go to a
(18:04):
funeral, that's the time wherethe elder will speak the
stories, you know, it's a timeto speak.
And not only will they speak ofthe deceased person, but
they'll speak about the island,the lamentation of, oh man, the
way it used to be, you know, andstuff.
Yeah.
The stories of before.
And that's all rooted in theJareto tradition, because what
(18:26):
happens in a funeral service,you know, people eat.
You know, and sometimes there'smusic that's, that's very
ancestral right there.
So those traditions are stillalive and well, you know
Nicte-Ha (18:38):
did you go a lot to Puerto Rico to learn?
I mean, you mentioned learningfrom elders and with a lot of
that connecting in New York withelders who had immigrated up
from Puerto Rico into New Yorkor, once you knew you kind of
wanted to go on this path andexplore more deeply, you must've
gone back, it sounds like, itsounds like that's where you
found more of a personalconnection to the teachings
DJ Sanakori (19:00):
After my great grandmother died, all that
ritual died with her, you know.
Cause no one really kept upwith it.
I got me really depressed.
No, I missed that, that wholemysticism and power, and I
remember saying to my family,cause nobody was really a church
goer back then.
I says, Oh, I want to go, Iwant to go to church.
And I was like maybe 11 yearsold.
(19:21):
Cause.
When I went to the funeral massin the Catholic church, I love
the rituals, you know, what theywere doing with the smoke, you
know, it all reminded me of whatI witnessed.
So I started going to churchand I really got devoted to the
church.
So much so that I went tocollege seminary to be a priest,
and then something in me juststopped me, you know, something
(19:44):
in my soul.
It's just like, this is not,you know, the spiritual part is
definitely something I couldjive with.
But, but the mindset justwasn't there, man.
And then the more and more Istarted reading in college about
how indigenous people weresuppressed, you know, the
Catholics, Catholic, indigenous,they couldn't practice their
(20:06):
rituals in the church.
That really got me upset.
So then I said, man, I got togo back to Puerto Rico.
I got to find people like mygreat grandmother.
So I started doing that in NewYork.
I started visiting people whoare so called spiritualists.
You know, a lot of people thatI found.
had that mindset of like, youknow, oh yeah, I'll, I'll share
(20:28):
some, but you got to pay methis, pay me that, you know, so
that kind of turned me off.
I did pay it though, but youknow, kind of, I, I, I wasn't
feeling it, you know?
And then later, I went back tothe church and became a
Franciscan friar in the Capuchintradition.
Yeah.
Believe it or not.
So, a lot of the friars aretelling me, yo, you got to go to
(20:51):
Montana.
I said, Oh, what's in Montana?
Oh, we have some friars outthere who work with the Crow
Nation.
And I was like, Oh man, I wouldlove that.
And I spoke to the priest thatworked with them.
So I went out in the summerthere and I, and I loved it, and
before I, it was like, I wasseeing my great grandmother
again.
You know, I was like, oh myGod, this is like, I'm back
(21:13):
home.
This is like, these people arelike Puerto Ricans, you know?
So, then I went to a sweatlodge ceremony.
I don't know if you know thesweat lodge, the purification
lodge.
When I went into the sweatlodge, that's when my world just
blew up, you know?
And that's when I had to make areally strong decision of
saying, you know what, I can'tbe a fryer.
I can't be a Catholic anymore.
(21:35):
I have to return back to myroots.
And that's when my family wasso confused.
Like you're educated, you got afuture ahead of yourself.
Like what the hell, what areyou doing?
Nicte-Ha (21:46):
And also, coming from an intensely Catholic, my
family's Mexican and theCatholic church is so strong
it's, a lot of times it's like,Oh, that's great.
Like our son or cousin orwhatever is in the church.
I mean, my grandmother was verydevout Catholic.
She was a very, very devoutCatholic.
She prayed the rosary, like Ithink every day, I remember as a
(22:07):
kid being pulled in and shewould have marathon prayer
sessions in her room.
The whole family had to comeand we all had to at least sit
and do a round of the rosarywith her.
And it would go like hours,like we all, everyone would be
in her bedroom praying therosary for whoever, so, I can
imagine that you deciding toleave the church was very big
(22:28):
for your family.
DJ Sanakori (22:29):
Yeah.
And I remember I resisted thenotion, my body was breaking out
in hives and I remember goingto experts.
And they had no cure for me.
I'm like, I don't know what'sgoing on with you.
You know, I thought it wasanxieties.
And I just, from one night tothe last cold Turkey, I just
left.
I've just left back a bag and Ileft.
I went back to my great aunt'shouse and my hives were gone.
Nicte-Ha (22:54):
That's amazing.
Do you consider yourself to beChristian or have you moved
outside of that?
And how do you reconcile that?
I was never Catholic.
I mean, I was in the church,but I never really.
called to me.
And so I didn't really have toreconcile a belief for myself.
I'm just curious how that, howthat works for you and how that
(23:16):
felt.
DJ Sanakori (23:17):
Yeah.
Well, you know, I wasprivileged enough to get a
degree in philosophy and, and incollege.
And then I got a masters indivinity.
So I was able to dissect andlearn the Christian tradition of
Catholic Christianity.
And anyone who, anyone who'slistening to me, this is a
disclaimer.
I'm not criticizing theChristian faith, but this is my
(23:37):
understanding.
I just didn't see Jesus as thisGod, as God.
I saw more Jesus like thisradical, this rebel, this
political, rebel, you know,social activist.
And I was getting in troublefor that in the seminary for
saying these things.
And I saw how people gotsensitive about it.
(23:57):
I said, wait a minute, these,yo, they're not getting it.
I'm seeing something else,right?
But here's the thing through myexperience, through my great
grandmother, my experience inthe church, I realized, I guess
as humans, we, we, we try tomake sense of things, right?
We try to make sense of, of theworld.
We're always constantly lookingfor the truth, right?
(24:19):
And my personal faith journey,and this is why I totally
separated myself from theChristian faith, is like, no,
Jesus is not the only way toreach, salvation, or in a Taino
way, huave, heaven, or thespiritual world.
Because he's Jewish.
He's, he's limited to oneexperience, the Jewish people,
(24:42):
right?
And then the Roman empire,whatever.
So this guy was definitely notGod.
That's what I'm saying.
And if he was God, and I don'twant to know your God, because
then that God is prejudice.
Actually, I will say that Godis racist because if, if God
picks one culture over allcultures, then that's not right,
that's not a true God.
(25:03):
That's not my God.
That's not a tiny little God.
So then I, that's when Itotally separate myself, but,
but I understand how it feedspeople.
It gives people direction inlife.
You know, believing in Jesus asthe price, you know, I see
Jesus as, a radical turn theworld upside down, or I see what
the leaders, they call it.
(25:23):
Hey, Yoko's, they walkbackwards, they turn everything
upside down the trickster, youknow.
So I still love Jesus like thatas a trickster, you know,
Nicte-Ha (25:32):
I love that.
I love that reconception ofJesus as a trickster figure.
I think that's awesome.
I hadn't thought of that.
DJ Sanakori (25:39):
Yeah, man.
I learned that back then in theancient world, religious
Radicals would normally go faraway you know, they'll go far
away to the desert.
Like John the Baptist, Jesus,the opposite.
He went to the temple.
and he caused havoc.
That's the ultimate Tristaright there.
He's like, what?
Turning tables over, like, youknow, and it's like, yo, he's,
(26:01):
he's going to get killed.
But he didn't care because heknew the ideal of showing that,
love one another, right?
This system is not working.
But so, so when I look, when Iread the stories of the
tricksters and native traditionsin Puerto Rico, we have a
character called Juan Bobo.
He's like.
(26:21):
In the story.
He's like the dumbest person inthe village, but at the end of
the day, he saves the day.
He's like the dummy, you know?
Or the Campesino or the the hebottle in the forest.
You know, he doesn't know much.
He's not educated.
He's barefooted.
He saves the day.
So I, I, I love that more, youknow, and, and that's when I
started looking for people whoare like, who are like backwards
(26:43):
in, in, in Puerto Ricansociety, they had this profound
wisdom, you know, and it wasrelated in a Taino spirituality.
As one elder once taught me,Hey man, the Christians, they
always look at heaven.
We look at the earth, you know.
Nicte-Ha (27:00):
Yeah, they always want to escape, right?
They want to escape.
They want to get away.
And I'm like, the earth feedsus, like it clothes us, the
trees breathe out the oxygen webreathe in.
Like we evolve for thisplanet,, why do you want to get
away?
I agree with you.
They always look at the heaven,but like, look at the earth
(27:21):
under your feet.
And so I've noticed that youspeak Taino and you have words
from Taino.
So how did you, how did youfind somebody to teach you the
Taino words?
Is there a Taino languagerevival that kind of goes along
with the spiritual effort thatyou're putting forth?
DJ Sanakori (27:39):
That's a very good question.
I personally am illiterate whenit comes to the Taino,
language.
through the years, since 1994,I've been trying to learn
different words, differentphrases, which I do.
I know some phrases.
I know some common words, thatsnuck into the Spanish language,
like, things like that.
(28:00):
Tobacco, you know, there's alltypes of words.
But the thing is that I'm badwith languages.
I admit it, man.
I'm really bad.
back in the nineties, Iremember, they would speak this
dialect, you know, we were allintrigued by it.
And, then later on in, myjourney, I met Dr.
Yari Melendez, who was ananthropologist in Puerto Rico,
(28:21):
who actually led an indigenouscommunity in Puerto Rico, And
she actually spent time with theY U and, Columbia.
The Ggo.
What the Spanish call theCaribs, but that's kind of
controversial word, but so shesat with all these different
communities, and she created anice system, beautiful system of
(28:43):
dialect.
And, she was teaching thechildren in Puerto Rico.
emergence class starting inkindergarten, all the way to
high school.
Unfortunately, she died.
She never was able to publishher book.
And the most recent times,Javier Hernandez wrote a book
called Boringaniki and it's anattempt of creating a system,
(29:08):
you know, a basic system, youknow, hello, how are you, you
know, face, head everything,which was rooted a lot in the
Wai'i religion, which is thelargest speaking Arawak language
group right now.
But those are our ancestors.
and then Hiawaha, which isanother indigenous Caribbean,
(29:30):
tribe, just they came out withtheir book and now the tribe
that I'm part of, they're,they're also working on the
dialect.
So, so right now, what's reallycool, that big wave.
Is towards language, speakingup, the more dialects, the
better, I think.
Nicte-Ha (29:44):
Yeah, I think a lot of indigenous people and tribal
people in the Americas arerealizing how important it is,
how much goes along withlanguage, language carries so
much.
It carries how you view gender,how you view other beings in
the world.
And, it just carries so much.
I'm trying to learn Nahuatl andthat's, that's tough.
I bought a book and I got twoyoung kids and I'm like, man, I
(30:08):
speak one and three quarterslanguages right now.
do I get better at Spanish ordo I try and teach myself
Nahuatl?
But I think I'm going to, I'mgoing to keep.
Pushing it because I'm likepretty sure just based on,
generally where my people arefrom and where my ancestors are
from, I'm pretty sure I'mlearning nawa, but people just
think like, Oh, Mexico isAztecs.
And you're like, no, there'sactually a lot of different
(30:30):
tribal groups in Mexico thatwere subjugated by the Aztecs,
so, there were more people thanjust the Aztecs there.
I think a big thing for MexicanAmericans in the United States
is we latched on really stronglyto this idea of Aslan and the
Aztecs is this, very advancedcivilization.
There were a lot of otheraspects to their civilization
(30:52):
that, were, you know, just humanbeings, right?
Cruel and beautiful andterrible and kind, just like.
Everybody lives in their fullspectrum in their in their
civilizations, right?
So, is there kind of a similar,story or mythology building
that's within the, Puerto Ricancommunity around indigeneity.
(31:15):
Cause like Mexican Americancommunity since the sixties,
right?
Since the Chicano movementsreally built up this, attachment
to this ideology around theAztecs.
And so I'm just wondering ifyou guys have similar
mythologies and stories that youguys have have latched on to in
the United States
DJ Sanakori (31:31):
yeah, you know, there's something about in
Puerto Rico that's verymystical.
We call Borinquen.
It's very mystical about it,especially the people when you
go to the country and you speakto the people.
Do come from the mountains.
They always have these stories,you know, these cuentos, you
know, these, these folklorestories.
And a lot of it deals like withthat trickster kind of stories,
(31:54):
you know, Juan Bobo and so on.
And they also have differentscenes, you know, different
cuentos, but a lot of itreleased to the Indian, you
know, kind of the mobile, thenoble Indian, you know,
thankfully, thankfully.
I'm grateful for it.
Ramon by name left the workbehind.
(32:14):
So those are our sacred texts,you know, in, the book, when he
published it and gave it toColumbus at the end of the book,
he's like, I don't know what'sfirst, I don't know what's last.
And it was very confusing forhim.
He couldn't get it.
A couple of times he said, Oh,this is, this is definitely
devil worship.
And then it was another.
(32:34):
European scholar Peter Monner,he, he also got a glimpse of
this work and he added hiscommentary, but that exists now.
So the, the present thing, youknow, right now, we've been
pushing this whole, we need tolearn this.
We need to live this.
These are our traditions Therewas a famous book that came out,
The Cave of the Jaguar, byAntonio Arroyo Stevens.
(32:56):
He was the first,anthropologist, Puerto Rican,
who compared the differentreligions, different myths,
mythologies, to the Tainomythologies, so, so called.
You know, using their language.
Nicte-Ha (33:12):
Yeah, I know.
I love, how it's like, Oh, theBible is the Bible, but all the
rest of your creation stories,that's just a myth.
DJ Sanakori (33:18):
Yeah, exactly.
It was called a myth.
It's our sacred texts.
But so, he compared it and, andman, he put us right up there.
So the Greeks and every, heeven shared some comparisons
with the Aztecs and also theSouth Americans, it's like there
was this one common ancientknowledge and everyone had a
(33:39):
piece of it.
And that's how you know, I hada, I might ask this out a piece
of it.
So I'm very proud of it.
So I'm always teaching it, overand over again.
And in my podcast, tiny radio.
com.
I'm always, going over thatcreation stories and it just
makes me laugh how they workthese digs in it, Like there's
one part that they're witnessinghow they build this structure
(34:01):
made out of palms.
Well, some people call a hut,whatever, and then they don't
keep the sacred objects inthere, you know, and they were
living beans.
These were living beans,spirits, right.
And then they will feed itfood.
Everyone will get food, getwater, you know, just like the
modern spiritualists who feedstheir statues, right?
(34:22):
So, and then the author islike, Oh yeah.
Oh, I can't wait to see them.
Eat all that food, you know,like, you know what I mean?
And he's an indirect jokes, youknow, like digs, right?
Nicte-Ha (34:35):
came into the Americas and they did a lot of that kind
of recording of nativereligion.
And then they did what theCatholic church did everywhere.
Like, oh, okay, we'll take thisand then we can connect Jesus
to this and we can kind of takethis template and then we can
put our spiritual template ontop of it.
And that's how we can explainChristianity to these people.
I'm hopefully going to talk toan Aztec reconstructionist who's
(34:57):
leading mostly digitalcommunity of younger people who
are interested in exploring theAztec religion and Pantheon.
And it's interesting seeingthat grow up.
I'm one of the older people ontheir, community on discord.
DJ Sanakori (35:14):
Oh, wow.
Nicte-Ha (35:14):
And so it's wonderful to see people exploring their
heritage.
But at the same time, I'm like,I'm 43.
I'm not old, but all of you are21.
DJ Sanakori (35:23):
Oh, wow.
Oh, that's good.
Young at heart, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Spirit.
Young at heart.
Yeah.
Nicte-Ha (35:32):
And it's great to see them connecting over the
internet.
I mean, is that, that seemslike that is a really good
source for a lot of people whoare.
Reaching out and trying to findout more about their indigenous
heritage.
So has that helped you guys?
Obviously you have a podcast,which I will link.
And other than that, you seethe digital presence as being
really helpful in spreading theword about Taino practices.
DJ Sanakori (35:52):
Oh, definitely.
You know, you know, back in thelate 2000s, I want to say it
was 2016.
I'm sure.
The UN had an indigenous forumand, and, and the indigenous
forum was talking about howindigenous peoples, they have to
use media, they have to use theinternet to, to, to share these
stories, to teach, you know, sothat kind of inspired me, I was
(36:15):
like, Oh man, that's cool, youknow, like podcasts and radio
shows and, you know, videos andstuff like that.
So I got to meet some, someindigenous peoples that were
doing stuff like that.
So that inspired me.
So I think that's definitelygreat.
Well, only problem is I thinkit's 50% great.
The other 50% is meeting inperson.
(36:36):
I think that that equallyimportant because sometimes the
media, social media, internet,it can separate us too, because
when we get too comfortable onthe keyboard.
But it's very important to meetin person.
So on Taino Radio recently I'vebeen trying to do events in the
community.
Recently I did a ceremony inIngle Hill Park, with the
(36:58):
Chiracapac Earth Keepers toconnect people.
And some people, a lot ofpeople came.
It was really nice, differentpeople.
Dominican, they came and, youknow, we did some prayers and
stuff.
That's very important, youknow, to meet in person.
Nicte-Ha (37:15):
Yeah, ceremony and community, because religious
practice of oneness is prettyhard.
You need that community.
And we need people like you whoare willing to lead those
public ceremonies.
And I know you talk about it alot in your podcast, but can you
give people who are listening,like a little bit of a, just an
overview of who the creator isin the, Taino tradition, what
(37:37):
the cosmology looks like?
DJ Sanakori (37:40):
Yeah, well, most, most of us talk about Yoka Hu,
Bagua, Manokoti.
So Yo Ka Hoo is the Yukaspirit, the Yuka.
I don't know if you know, you,you got comes from the South
America, right?
It's a staple food,carbohydrates, vitamins,
minerals.
Nicte-Ha (37:58):
Really delicious when fried.
DJ Sanakori (38:00):
Oh, there we go.
Fried yucca is like my favoritething.
Oh, there you go.
So there you go.
Nicte-Ha (38:05):
Better than potatoes.
I'm just going to say it.
I'm going to put it out there.
I'm sorry, Peruvians.
I'm sorry.
But yucca, fried yucca, justmuch better than potato.
DJ Sanakori (38:14):
Yeah, exactly.
And then, and then the, allright the Taino ancestors, they
used to make the cassava bread,the yucca bread.
That will last a whole year ofour molding, which is
interesting.
And, oh man, later I'll sharesomething, but the thing is that
so Yoka Hu, right?
Yuka spirit, Bagua means thewaters, the ocean, Marakoti, who
(38:37):
had no father.
And then the story goes on, hehad a mother.
So I'm like, wait a minute,hold on.
So if Yoka Hu.
It's this creator, right?
Masculine, right?
Had a mother.
So wait a minute.
Had no father.
We had a mother.
So the mother has to be alsoSupreme being right.
So they didn't have a dualismhere.
(38:59):
There's that dualism, feminineand masculine.
So our ancestors, you know,that that's the way they, they,
they saw the creation story as,as both masculine and feminine,
you know, mother.
And son, that's why it wasn'tso difficult.
Even I think in a Mexicanculture, you know, our lady,
Guadalupe, you know CariraleCobre in Cuba, you know, and
(39:23):
that was the first statue theygave us of the Virgin Mary, you
know, so holding on to Jesus asa boy, you know, so, or as a
baby, so it's like that's ourcreation story, you know, that,
that, that, that's our supremebeings.
So it's, it's a two spirit kindof situation.
Yucca who is the male is themale aspect of the Supreme being
(39:47):
who, who is seen as is, youknow, the force behind the
Yucca, but basically, yeah, theYucca spirit, the force behind
the Yucca, the growth of theYucca, the ocean.
Right.
The ocean feeds us, the fish,substance, right?
And then he, who had no father.
But then his mother, we see asthis divine mother.
(40:09):
The divine feminine, right?
And then...
And then there's that wholething with with the Europeans
say that animism, whereeverything has a spirit.
It's really complicated.
You know, reading the story andthen you try to figure it out
on face value.
Nicte-Ha (40:26):
And then also apply it to like how you do with
personal practice.
That's been a thing that that'sthe thing that I'm struggling
with is just connecting andfiguring out what my personal
practice and my everydaypractice looks like, since I
kind of left.
Any spiritual practice.
I just didn't do anything.
I didn't even give thanks orgratitude before a meal.
I just sort of lived my lifeand now coming back at 40
(40:47):
because I had two kids and Isuddenly became really important
to me.
Right?
Like, what am I going to passon to them?
Because you're more as aperson, you're more than just,
you do more than exist, right?
You have to figure out how youbring beauty and what you love
and what kind of person you wantyour kids to be.
And it really woke me up to thefact that I didn't have that in
(41:09):
my life.
I was just sort of, I wasdrinking, I was partying, I was
hanging out, I was playing videogames, but I wasn't really
connected to me as a, as a humanbeing.
And so my kids kicked off thatjourney into figuring out how to
build ritual into my life andfigure out what I wanted to
believe in and what I wanted topass on.
And it's, picking out what kindof traditions to follow.
(41:36):
It a little nice to know youcan look back and be like, Oh,
okay.
Like this is what they did.
These are the names of thegods.
And I don't have to do itexactly that way.
Or I don't know if that'sexactly how it was done, but at
least I can.
I can honor that and bring thatforward in my, in my life.
And I've had some people askme, why are you doing this in a
podcast form?
And so I know my answer to whyI'm doing it in a podcast form,
(41:59):
but I'm curious if you have a,perspective or thought on the
particular media that you'vechosen.
DJ Sanakori (42:05):
You know, it's funny, I'm going to date myself
back in the seventies, back inthe seventies, there was a movie
that always used to show on TV,it was called the planet of the
apes, the original planet ofthe apes in the seventies.
And there was one scene thatkind of blew me away.
I think it was called thebattle of the planet of the
apes.
It was the, it was, I think itwas the third movie, I forget
(42:28):
which one.
But it was the child ofCornelius and Zerah, caesar,
Caesar.
So Caesar actually went to theForbidden Planet.
And when they went into theForbidden Planet, it was
actually civilization in thepast, human civilization that
treated apes like slaves, youknow?
So he found archived footage ofhis mother and father, you
(42:53):
know?
And he was watching his father,Cornelius and Zero, and he was
getting these ideas like, Oh myGod, this is where we came from.
This is the oppression that welive, you know?
Oh my God, they were trying tomake a difference.
So as a kid, that kind of, thatkind of planted a seed, like,
wouldn't it be cool to go backin your past and find these
(43:16):
videos of the Taino, right?
Like, man, maybe they, youknow, they left something
behind, they teaching us.
But when I first found outabout podcasting and you know, I
love radio, you know, I used tolove Wolfman Jack, Wolfman Jack
kid talking from.
So it all came together, youknow, like bam, bam, bam, bam.
(43:39):
And then when the UN was like,yeah, you got to use the media.
Yes.
So when I do my radio show, I'mnot thinking of present so much
because I'm thinking about thefuture, say 200 years from now.
Right.
After, after a flood or, youknow, climate crash and crisis,
whatever, they're going to finda podcast.
(43:59):
That's going to say Tainoradio.
Nicte-Ha (44:02):
So, when you run ceremony in public, in a public
space, what's the feeling?
And, if somebody wants to jointhe ceremony, who's not
necessarily Taino or PuertoRican, do you consider your
practice to be open?
So if people get curious, theylisten to this, and they feel
connection, right?
I think there's a lot of peopleout there seeking for a
(44:22):
connection, and I think there'sa lot of.
white people, white Europeandescended people who are turning
their backs on Christianity.
you see the numbers of churchgoing people declining in the
United States.
And so I think there's thishunger for people to look for a
more earth centered connectionspirituality.
And there's a lot of people whoare appropriating Lakota
(44:44):
beliefs or other indigenousbeliefs who are European
descended people.
do you consider what you teachto be a closed practice and then
a follow up question, is.
Since the spiritual connectionis so strong with the island of
Puerto Rico with the spirit ofthe Yucca and the sea, how does
that translate and how do youstill feel that connection,
(45:05):
being so far away in New York,having a land based practice.
Even though you're, displacedfrom that land.
So it's a two part question.
One, do you consider yourpractice more closed?
And two, how do you practiceyour land based spirituality in
a land that's removed from thoseforces?
DJ Sanakori (45:25):
Yeah, there's four kinds of peoples that I invite
into my, into the ceremony thatI lead, the way I was taught.
The first people I invite isthe the human race, you know,
the humans.
Then the animal world, mineralworld, and the plant world.
So in my ceremonies, you'regoing to have all those four
aspects.
So speaking of the humanbeings, you know, hey, Any
(45:49):
culture in the world, you know,you're invited, you know, we're
one people, you know, we're onerace.
Only thing is I do say that,you know, wherever land I'm
doing a ceremony at, I do mybest always to honor those
people.
So I do mostly Nimue Hill Park,which is Shiraka Pak.
That's the word that the thepeople use, the Lenape, land by
(46:11):
the edge of the water.
So I honor the Lenape peoplebefore anything.
You know if I'm in Boan, youknow, honor, you know and then,
and I tell people whereveryou're from, say you're England,
you're German, whatever, youknow, honor your ancestor.
Cuz at one point we all livedon the land at one point we're
all indigenous.
And as the Hopi, say, at onepoint we all separated, many
(46:36):
went their ways and, andspecifically many tribes lost
that, that connection to theland, you know, Which was
suffering now.
So I always invite people to dothat.
You always see plants in myceremonies, the fruits of those
plants and, and the minerals,you know, definitely the mineral
people, very important, ourbody contains a hundred minerals
(46:59):
about those minerals.
And we have 99, we're going toget sick.
So we're all, we're all one.
We're all one.
So I always teach people that.
And I don't charge money.
It's all about community.
As Black Elk ones say, mendingthe sacred hoop.
You know, it was broken.
Thanks Columbus broke it.
(47:20):
So we're going to, we're goingto amend it.
You know, we've got amended andit's going to call.
And it means that we all got towork together.
A couple of weeks I had a greathonor.
I was invited to participate inan African festival of uniting
Africa with the diaspora andthey invited me to represent, so
I think that's amazing becausethat's the whole thing, man.
(47:41):
That's the many in the hoop.
What's your second question?
I forgot.
Nicte-Ha (47:45):
My second question was,, you practice the Taino
tradition, connected to the landand if you're removed from that
land how do you bring thoseforces up with you?
DJ Sanakori (47:57):
Yeah.
Well, I, I, I always lived inthe urban cities and here in New
York City but mygreat-grandmother always taught
me to, you always have to haveplants in the house.
It's gonna give you fresh air,it's gonna give you good luck.
So I always try to have plantsin my apartment, right now I'm
rented a room, so I have mywindows, it has plants.
You need that connection nomatter where you are.
(48:18):
And if you can have plants, yougo to the park.
One of my weaknesses as aTaino, and I'll admit this, you
know, it wasn't my parentsfault, you know, like I said,
they fell in love and, the waythe tradition was at that time,
they had to come back to NewYork.
If you ask my mother, she wouldhave loved to still live by the
beach, and I was born here inNew York.
(48:39):
I can't take that back.
And I know a lot of people fromthe islands call me gringo,
because I wasn't born on theisland.
But I'm proud to say that thepeople that taught me were from
the island.
So they taught me the island,so when I go back to the island,
I feel I'm home.
Through the stories, right?
So when they talk about thetrees, when they talk about the
(48:59):
ocean, the rivers, it's familiarfriends.
But it's a battle.
If you're in our communities,if you're from the diaspora, if
you're from the islands, youknow, we're still on Mother
Earth.
You know, it's one big earth,one big mother.
but where you're living now,you make it your homeland as
(49:21):
well.
It's very important, veryessential to have that
connection to your homeland, andI think Caribbean people have
that in their spirit, eitherthrough a flag or going back
home to be buried, you know, orto buy that house.
Just the other day, you know,I've been suffering from high
(49:43):
blood pressure and they've beenchecking my heart.
They've been checking mykidneys and the doctor said, we
can't find anything wrong withyou.
Why are you having a high bloodpressure?
Right.
I said, I know why she looks atme.
He's like, I need to live bythe beach.
Give me a beach and I'll haveperfect blood pressure.
Give me give me some time tojust float in the ocean, right?
(50:05):
Soak up the sun.
Yo, give me a canoe.
Let me fish all day.
I'll fish.
There you go.
I'll plant my yucca, you know,and I'll fight the neighbors.
Yo, I don't have no bloodpressure, no high blood
pressure.
And she just laughed.
Nicte-Ha (50:18):
For real.
but community sharing andhaving your fingers in the earth
like super important for usspiritually as humans.
DJ Sanakori (50:27):
You know, you know, I give you a quick story, but
back in 2019, I was goingthrough a nervous breakdown.
A lot of people that knew me atthe time.
They were shocked cause I'm asocial worker by trade and I do
therapy and people were shockedlike, yo, you know, all the
answers you, you know what youneed to do.
(50:47):
I could see it in people'seyes.
I was like, what the hell?
Like, but I was lost.
So, so I went back to Moniqueand I went back to the island.
I went back like three and ahalf months with nothing,
nothing.
I remember telling my kids,I'll be back, man, but just,
just give me a little bit time.
And I was, I was down to likemy last money, and I remember I
(51:12):
used to go buy a 5 meal at, youknow, you know, the roadside
vendors.
Yeah, your traditional foods,right?
So you used to do rice, beans,or meat and a soda for five
dollars, So, so that was my mealevery day.
That was my lunch.
Sometimes my lunch and dinnerSo he always used to ask me, Oh,
did you find a job?
(51:33):
Did you find a job?
Did you find a job?
Never stopped asking me formonths.
I mean, I says, I don't knowwhat it is in New York.
I can get a job in two dayshere.
It's no work.
There's no jobs.
And he's like, welcome toPuerto Rico.
So one day he bends over and Itell you, I mean, I knew he was
going to ask me, did you get ajob?
(51:53):
You know what he said?
And this, this totally blew meaway.
And this is the spirit of theTaino.
He says, brother, don't ask.
I'm not going to ever chargeyou again.
Just come here for food.
And that's just like, wow.
The next day I was going backto New York and I didn't have
(52:14):
the heart to tell him, you know,that was leaving.
But that's the spirit, man, ofthe island, you know.
That's the spirit of thehomeland.
It will take care of you.
It will embrace you, but youhave to find the right people.
Because some people won'tembrace you.
That's not the Taino spirit.
The Taino spirit will be like,nah, man, you're home.
(52:36):
You're home, brother.
You know?
So if there's any advice outthere, any Taino, when you go
home, if you get any negativity,whatever, nah, man.
Just look for the right people,look for that right person to
take you in, to teach you theway I was taught and and the
sacred medicine I was taught,make sure people eat, make sure
(52:59):
people drink, make sure they'reall right, and don't let them
leave if they're not all right.
Find help.
That's it.
That's the, that's, that's whatthe Tainos practice and this is
what the Spanish try to takeaway, you know, the invaders,
Nicte-Ha (53:14):
but they didn't.
And it's alive.
And I want to say, thank you.
I want to say thank you forsharing that medicine and that
teaching with us and that wisdomwith us.
Thank you.
It's been really beautiful.
Thank you so much.
Oh, Bomaton.
Thank you for having me, man.
So fun.
Gracias.
Thank you.
I've, I have run out of time.
I have to end the, our, our,our conversation, but I just
(53:37):
really appreciate your time andyour openness.
So I want to welcome everybody to this very special.
Event, this very specialinterview, my first interview
with somebody outside of thepodcast.
And I want to welcome DJSanakori, who's the Behike of
the Araike Yukayak TainoIndigenous Caribbean Tribal
Nation.
(00:21):
He is the tribal founder and amember of the nation.
And he's also the founder ofthe Taino Earth Prayer Lodge
Society, Tainoradio.
com and the Chorako Book.
And so I want to welcome you tothe podcast DJ Santa Cody, and
I want to thank you for being onCasa Cozumel and sharing your
(00:43):
wisdom and your experience withus.
DJ Sanakori (00:46):
Wow.
Well, my phone.
Thank you.
It's an honor to be here,Bernadette, man.
This is great.
Like, you know, I'm excited andI can't wait to share and thank
you for giving me that talkingstick so I can share, you know.
Nicte-Ha (00:58):
We talked about it just a couple minutes ago, but I
would love it if you could openup with just some words to your
ancestors or to the gods orwhoever you want to talk to to
bless us in this conversationand bless the people who are
going to be listening to ourinterview to open their ears and
open our mouths.
DJ Sanakori (01:15):
Oh, sure.
Thank you.
I have a calling song that I, II call upon the, the, the Earth
Mother, the Goddess, Creatress,Atave, in a Tainui way, and
also she had a son.
Her name is Yokahu.
And that's in our Tainoworldview.
She's a mother and she also hasa son and they both co created
(01:36):
the universe and they still withus.
So okama means listen, listen.
So we listen.
And then we feel this power,Taino Ti.
Wokama, Wokama, Atame, Watame.
Wokama, Wokama.
(01:57):
The creative creator and thehelper with.
(02:50):
As we speak, we give honor toour dear holy Lord.
Alright, thank you.
Nicte-Ha (03:03):
Thank you very much.
That was beautiful.
DJ Sanakori (03:05):
Oh, you're welcome.
Thank you for the honor.
Nicte-Ha (03:09):
So, I got chills.
DJ Sanakori (03:13):
It's good on a hot day.
It's good to have children on ahot day.
Nicte-Ha (03:16):
I am super curious about your background and, just
your family, your ancestors.
So if you can talk a little bitabout your journey and your
ancestors journey, I think.
I am familiar a little bit,look we can get into it later,
I'm familiar a little bit withthe history of the Taino people,
(03:40):
but I think a lot of people areoften taught that there's no
Taino people left.
And so if you can talk a littlebit about your ancestors in
your history, that would bewonderful.
Cause I think we would all liketo know how you came to this
and who your people are.
DJ Sanakori (03:56):
Oh, I appreciate it.
I appreciate it.
You know, I like to start withmy father because my father, he
was born in Gaiape.
Borinquen is the indigenousword for Puerto Rico.
And he was 17.
No, I want to say he was 16years old, turning 17 when he
came from Brooklyn, New York, hewent back to Puerto Rico
because he fell in love with mymom who was visiting during the
(04:19):
summer break.
And she was visiting her, herolder sister.
My mom's from Guanica.
There's a two Taino words,Cayey and Guanica, and that's
the Southwest region.
Guanica, it's a beach, kind ofbeach area, faces the ocean
leading towards the SouthAmerica.
And then my father's in theinterior.
(04:40):
So he fell in love.
He went to Guanica looking formy, his girlfriend, that he fell
in love with, who had to returnback to Puerto Rico.
So we hitchhiked from San Juan,Puerto Rico, four hours to
Guanica.
Yeah, she was, I believe shewas 16.
Yeah, he was 17.
So they fell in love.
According to my mother, I wasconceived in Guanica.
(05:03):
So, so like most traditionalfamilies, you know, once you get
pregnant, that's it, man.
You got to get married.
So they, so they got married inBrooklyn, New York.
So I was like, well, maybeeight months, she was like eight
months pregnant.
She gave birth to me.
So I believe, cause I've beento Guanica many times and it
feels like home.
I believe that desire, thatyearning to return back to the
(05:25):
island.
Was, was instilling me throughmy mother and dad, you know,
and, unfortunately my fatherdied at 41.
He was, you know, he died avery tragic death and my
mother's still alive.
She's in her late seventies,living, still living in
Brooklyn, New York.
She never returned back toGuanica.
So she sees me as the, theradical one, because I always
(05:49):
want to teach this, what we callTaino culture.
And so what happened was, afterI was born, my great
grandmother, who was born inCalle Puerto Rico, Borinquen,
she made the decision to raiseme.
And I know that sounds cruel,but back then, back in the
(06:11):
sixties and fifties, you know, Iwas born in the sixties when
grandma spoke, no one questionedit.
And many times when I sharedthis story, they were like,
what?
No one called ACS, you know,protect us children, protect the
services.
It's not man.
When the matriarch speaks.
You know, that's it.
But it kind of led me to ajourney of, shamanism and what
(06:35):
they call, the, the medicinepath, because my
great-grandmother was what theycall a spiritualist ra, also
midwife, you know.
So from birth I was able toexperience a lot of the stuff
that she did, and unfortunatelyshe did it hidden cause in New
(06:57):
York back then.
You know, the church was verystrong, very influential, the
Roman Catholic church.
it was seen as brujeria or likeevil worship.
So my great grandmother had todo this in hidden.
So being a little bratty kid,spoiled kid, I always was behind
her watching all her ritualsand stuff like that.
Now I learned this later onwhen I was a teenager, because I
(07:21):
remember women coming to thehouse every Saturday.
Many of them came crying.
Many of them left crying.
But my great grandmother alwaysspent time with them the whole
day.
And she always had her plantmedicines and so on.
And they always went to thebathroom and I always found that
strange.
So when I asked later on inlife, I, you know what I mean?
When I became a young adult.
(07:42):
I asked my great aunt, why didshe always take those women into
the bathroom and it was cryingand, and then she would console
them.
She says, Oh, she wasperforming abortions.
Like what?
And this is before the Roeversus Wade, you know, in the
sixties.
So she was doing it in atraditional way.
And I remember her, you know,consoling them and giving them
(08:05):
the plant medicines and stuff.
It was like, wow.
So I remember that everySaturday And I would go with her
to buy the medicines and stuff.
She always had her saints, butwithin those saints, it was a
lot different from when I wouldgo to church, they were the same
saints, but the ritual wasdifferent.
So she always used like acigar.
She always fed the saints, youknow, she always had these
(08:28):
special prayers.
And she even had this little,entity.
Now, when I was a little kid, Ithought it was a monster.
You know, I was always afraidof it.
I realized this was a ritualthat she, she performed every
year, every year.
But basically what I wasexperiencing was an indigenous
spirituality that was hidden,either fear of Catholicism, fear
(08:50):
of family, what they would say,like, we're in a new world now,
we just don't do these thingsanymore.
And I used to hear relatives,yelling at her saying, this is
not Puerto Rico.
You don't do these things here.
This is New York.
Nicte-Ha (09:01):
Yeah.
It sounds actually very closeto like a candomblé or with the
blend, like with the Catholicsaints, it sounds a lot like
African diaspora traditions aswell that I know came into
central and South America withthe slave trade
DJ Sanakori (09:15):
Well, I, I always start like in recent history,
but if you go back 500 years,530 years, you had a very
ruthless, Roman Catholic churchled by late medieval politics.
If you were caught doing theseceremonies, you will be killed
on sight.
So a lot of that secrecydefinitely.
Kept it going.
(09:36):
And, and out of all thecultures that went through
Puerto Rico, went to theDominican Republic, Cuba, you
know, the Taino people they keptit quiet.
They kept it a secret.
They still keep it a secret.
Nicte-Ha (09:48):
Is that something you run into being out talking about
your heritage, talking aboutTaino spiritual practices?
Do you still run into a lot ofpeople who have that kind of
shame or fear?
And, or do you find that peopleare starting to get more
interested in it?
DJ Sanakori (10:06):
I think, I think there's a lot of of more
interest, but in my experience,so people that I I've, I've had
the privilege to learn underit's interesting that when you
never find them on social media,you will never find them on
Facebook.
You know, they're still veryhidden and they feel the shame
that, fellow Taino people or theindigenous peoples who are
(10:28):
trying to teach, who are tryingto offer this medicine are
selling it for profit as abusiness.
And that's kind of a no no sothe people I'm referring to are
traditional people, you know,the last thing they will do is
sell medicine or sell rituals.
So when I'm taught, they alwaystell me, you know, you don't
charge money for this.
(10:48):
If you do something, I'm notresponsible.
What can happen to you?
You know, it's, it's, it's likethat stern kind of ancient way,
it's interesting.
It's a bit controversial now,you know, about how to deal with
that in modern times, but but Iwas always taught, like, if you
can't organize a ceremony onyour own, don't do it, and a lot
(11:10):
of it's like, don't offend thespirits, you know, don't offend
the ancestors, don't offend God.
So, it's interesting because alot of people think we're
extinct.
A lot of people think we'reghosts, you know, we don't
exist.
And a lot of that came from thestories of Columbus and his
goons.
They decimated what we callthe, the tribal living style,
(11:32):
the politics, the socialstructure, and one of the things
that he commissionedimmediately was, we need to
learn their religion, we need tolearn their world view, so we
can better divide them, and whatwe have right now in modern
times is work by Ramon Panay,Panay, who was a friar, more
(11:54):
like a lay brother, Not apriest.
So he interviewed chiefs andmedicine people.
And basically his question was,who's your God?
How do you pray?
How do you worship?
You know?
And then he came to thatreport, went back to Columbus.
Smallpox nearly exterminatednot only the Taino people, but
(12:14):
most indigenous populationsafter the 1500s.
But what a lot of people don'ttalk about, smallpox did not
exterminate the indigenouspeoples.
And I credit that to theBajiques, the medicine people,
the Bulanderos.
They must have figured out acure, to keep our people alive.
Cause right now it's fastforward.
(12:35):
2000s when the, ancestry.
com, the 23andme, you know,that it was like the style to
get a DNA test, right?
The craze.
That's it.
The craze.
So, the companies themselveswere like, yo, wait a minute.
You know, there's indigenous.
Caribbean DNA on the modernpeople.
Wait, I skipped one importantman.
(12:57):
His name is Dr.
He was from the University ofMayaguez.
And in 1992, during the 500year celebration of the
Americas, Puerto Rico, DominicanRepublic, they're all
celebrating Columbus.
There were these bones that wasgiven to Dr.
Fusado, who's a geneticist.
They found these bones at aconstruction site somewhere.
(13:20):
I think it was in San Juan.
And nobody, no museum wantedthese bones because they were
pretty much like rumbled and itwas no significant to the, you
know, there was no appeal tothem to put a museum, whatever.
So he took the bones.
And he got a grant to do a DNAstudies on his bones.
So he carbon dated them like,1400s, right?
(13:44):
Common era.
And guess what happened?
He took the DNA samples of hisPhD students who were Puerto
Ricans, you know, all different.
Color shades, you know, inPuerto Rico, you can find a
white person, a black person atthe end, you know, brown skin.
And guess what happened?
(14:04):
60% match those bones.
So he's like, what the hell?
60% on the maternal line maxmatched my students.
So then he got more grantmoney.
And then little by little,those percentages were going up.
So he was the first pioneer tothe Juan Cruz shadow to really
(14:27):
blow it up.
Like, Oh, damn.
You know, the modern PuertoRican, when we say qua, we still
carry the dna and I love how 23and me give you a timeline and
they tell you exactly the, whenthe mixture occur and like for
my bloodline, the mixturebecame, the mix became 17
hundreds when, my Taino ancestormix to a Jewish person
(14:50):
actually.
And they mark it off and I'msaying, wait a minute, 1700s.
According to Columbus, theTaino exterminated 20 years
after the invasion.
Right.
Right.
So how can someone be living inthe 1700s, a Taino, right?
Full-blooded Taino, they say,right?
And then more DNA samples cameout and you saw 18 hundreds,
(15:13):
1850s, you know, so there isdefinitely this myth that the
Tainos were exterminated, Ipersonally was interviewing a
person who's 97.
Mm-hmm.
from Dominican Republic.
She had a lot of indigenous,worldview in her ancestry in, in
her apartment.
The alters and all that andthen so she's 97 then her mom.
(15:35):
I think she told me she'sliving to the 90s So now you're
going back 200 years, right?
And she said she knew hergrandmother.
250 She remembers her motherspeaking about her grandmother
Sorry about how they how theyworship how they set up the
altar and when I saw the altar Iknow most of the history of
(15:56):
what the Spaniards recorded,right?
Everything I knew from theserecordings that they witnessed
was in this woman's apartment.
And this woman had no idea whoRamon by name was.
You know, she didn't know, shedidn't have any access to these
writings.
She wasn't educated per se.
But she was living it.
You know?
She's living it.
Through the years I met theseelders, they won't tell you
(16:19):
they're you know, becausethat's, again, that's that
mindset, you know, you justdon't say that, but you hear
them say enio, you hear them saythes, the ancestors, you know,
you know.
Many people will commune withthem.
There's a lot of people inPuerto Rico have that, gift of
being one with the earth, andbeing one with the tree people,
(16:40):
the waters, the flowers, theplants, they can cure That's
very much alive.
None of that was, is extinct.
There's people that can stillset your broken bones in place
through traditional indigenoustechniques.
Unfortunately, our, our mainritual was the Cahoba ritual,
(17:01):
which was a, so who's in a gym?
Well, that's what thescientists say.
It's, it's a, it's a medicinethat has contains the DMT
similar to Yopo.
In South America, andayahuasca, all similar.
Right.
Right.
That, unfortunately thatlineage was broken, but we also
have other ceremonies.
That was stood the test oftime.
Like for example, the, publicceremony that was everyone
(17:24):
participated and basically itwas centered on dancing and
singing.
So I don't know if you nevermet a Caribbean person who
doesn't like to sing a dance.
Right.
Right.
Nicte-Ha (17:33):
Yeah.
I mean, for sure.
Music, and dance is sointegral.
The best music comes from theCaribbean.
You know,
DJ Sanakori (17:41):
that's right.
Our whole tradition of Sasaand, you know, the Maraca, the
Maraca is rooted in indigenousculture, the Guido, that's
indigenous, it's all into a mix,you know, but that was our,
that was our spirituality.
We, we will get together as a,as a tribe and sing and dance,
the medicine person will sharethe stories.
And in modern Puerto Rico, inmy experience, when you go to a
(18:04):
funeral, that's the time wherethe elder will speak the
stories, you know, it's a timeto speak.
And not only will they speak ofthe deceased person, but
they'll speak about the island,the lamentation of, oh man, the
way it used to be, you know, andstuff.
Yeah.
The stories of before.
And that's all rooted in theJareto tradition, because what
(18:26):
happens in a funeral service,you know, people eat.
You know, and sometimes there'smusic that's, that's very
ancestral right there.
So those traditions are stillalive and well, you know
Nicte-Ha (18:38):
did you go a lot to Puerto Rico to learn?
I mean, you mentioned learningfrom elders and with a lot of
that connecting in New York withelders who had immigrated up
from Puerto Rico into New Yorkor, once you knew you kind of
wanted to go on this path andexplore more deeply, you must've
gone back, it sounds like, itsounds like that's where you
found more of a personalconnection to the teachings
DJ Sanakori (19:00):
After my great grandmother died, all that
ritual died with her, you know.
Cause no one really kept upwith it.
I got me really depressed.
No, I missed that, that wholemysticism and power, and I
remember saying to my family,cause nobody was really a church
goer back then.
I says, Oh, I want to go, Iwant to go to church.
And I was like maybe 11 yearsold.
(19:21):
Cause.
When I went to the funeral massin the Catholic church, I love
the rituals, you know, what theywere doing with the smoke, you
know, it all reminded me of whatI witnessed.
So I started going to churchand I really got devoted to the
church.
So much so that I went tocollege seminary to be a priest,
and then something in me juststopped me, you know, something
(19:44):
in my soul.
It's just like, this is not,you know, the spiritual part is
definitely something I couldjive with.
But, but the mindset justwasn't there, man.
And then the more and more Istarted reading in college about
how indigenous people weresuppressed, you know, the
Catholics, Catholic, indigenous,they couldn't practice their
(20:06):
rituals in the church.
That really got me upset.
So then I said, man, I got togo back to Puerto Rico.
I got to find people like mygreat grandmother.
So I started doing that in NewYork.
I started visiting people whoare so called spiritualists.
You know, a lot of people thatI found.
had that mindset of like, youknow, oh yeah, I'll, I'll share
(20:28):
some, but you got to pay methis, pay me that, you know, so
that kind of turned me off.
I did pay it though, but youknow, kind of, I, I, I wasn't
feeling it, you know?
And then later, I went back tothe church and became a
Franciscan friar in the Capuchintradition.
Yeah.
Believe it or not.
So, a lot of the friars aretelling me, yo, you got to go to
(20:51):
Montana.
I said, Oh, what's in Montana?
Oh, we have some friars outthere who work with the Crow
Nation.
And I was like, Oh man, I wouldlove that.
And I spoke to the priest thatworked with them.
So I went out in the summerthere and I, and I loved it, and
before I, it was like, I wasseeing my great grandmother
again.
You know, I was like, oh myGod, this is like, I'm back
(21:13):
home.
This is like, these people arelike Puerto Ricans, you know?
So, then I went to a sweatlodge ceremony.
I don't know if you know thesweat lodge, the purification
lodge.
When I went into the sweatlodge, that's when my world just
blew up, you know?
And that's when I had to make areally strong decision of
saying, you know what, I can'tbe a fryer.
I can't be a Catholic anymore.
(21:35):
I have to return back to myroots.
And that's when my family wasso confused.
Like you're educated, you got afuture ahead of yourself.
Like what the hell, what areyou doing?
Nicte-Ha (21:46):
And also, coming from an intensely Catholic, my
family's Mexican and theCatholic church is so strong
it's, a lot of times it's like,Oh, that's great.
Like our son or cousin orwhatever is in the church.
I mean, my grandmother was verydevout Catholic.
She was a very, very devoutCatholic.
She prayed the rosary, like Ithink every day, I remember as a
(22:07):
kid being pulled in and shewould have marathon prayer
sessions in her room.
The whole family had to comeand we all had to at least sit
and do a round of the rosarywith her.
And it would go like hours,like we all, everyone would be
in her bedroom praying therosary for whoever, so, I can
imagine that you deciding toleave the church was very big
(22:28):
for your family.
DJ Sanakori (22:29):
Yeah.
And I remember I resisted thenotion, my body was breaking out
in hives and I remember goingto experts.
And they had no cure for me.
I'm like, I don't know what'sgoing on with you.
You know, I thought it wasanxieties.
And I just, from one night tothe last cold Turkey, I just
left.
I've just left back a bag and Ileft.
I went back to my great aunt'shouse and my hives were gone.
Nicte-Ha (22:54):
That's amazing.
Do you consider yourself to beChristian or have you moved
outside of that?
And how do you reconcile that?
I was never Catholic.
I mean, I was in the church,but I never really.
called to me.
And so I didn't really have toreconcile a belief for myself.
I'm just curious how that, howthat works for you and how that
(23:16):
felt.
DJ Sanakori (23:17):
Yeah.
Well, you know, I wasprivileged enough to get a
degree in philosophy and, and incollege.
And then I got a masters indivinity.
So I was able to dissect andlearn the Christian tradition of
Catholic Christianity.
And anyone who, anyone who'slistening to me, this is a
disclaimer.
I'm not criticizing theChristian faith, but this is my
(23:37):
understanding.
I just didn't see Jesus as thisGod, as God.
I saw more Jesus like thisradical, this rebel, this
political, rebel, you know,social activist.
And I was getting in troublefor that in the seminary for
saying these things.
And I saw how people gotsensitive about it.
(23:57):
I said, wait a minute, these,yo, they're not getting it.
I'm seeing something else,right?
But here's the thing through myexperience, through my great
grandmother, my experience inthe church, I realized, I guess
as humans, we, we, we try tomake sense of things, right?
We try to make sense of, of theworld.
We're always constantly lookingfor the truth, right?
(24:19):
And my personal faith journey,and this is why I totally
separated myself from theChristian faith, is like, no,
Jesus is not the only way toreach, salvation, or in a Taino
way, huave, heaven, or thespiritual world.
Because he's Jewish.
He's, he's limited to oneexperience, the Jewish people,
(24:42):
right?
And then the Roman empire,whatever.
So this guy was definitely notGod.
That's what I'm saying.
And if he was God, and I don'twant to know your God, because
then that God is prejudice.
Actually, I will say that Godis racist because if, if God
picks one culture over allcultures, then that's not right,
that's not a true God.
(25:03):
That's not my God.
That's not a tiny little God.
So then I, that's when Itotally separate myself, but,
but I understand how it feedspeople.
It gives people direction inlife.
You know, believing in Jesus asthe price, you know, I see
Jesus as, a radical turn theworld upside down, or I see what
the leaders, they call it.
(25:23):
Hey, Yoko's, they walkbackwards, they turn everything
upside down the trickster, youknow.
So I still love Jesus like thatas a trickster, you know,
Nicte-Ha (25:32):
I love that.
I love that reconception ofJesus as a trickster figure.
I think that's awesome.
I hadn't thought of that.
DJ Sanakori (25:39):
Yeah, man.
I learned that back then in theancient world, religious
Radicals would normally go faraway you know, they'll go far
away to the desert.
Like John the Baptist, Jesus,the opposite.
He went to the temple.
and he caused havoc.
That's the ultimate Tristaright there.
He's like, what?
Turning tables over, like, youknow, and it's like, yo, he's,
(26:01):
he's going to get killed.
But he didn't care because heknew the ideal of showing that,
love one another, right?
This system is not working.
But so, so when I look, when Iread the stories of the
tricksters and native traditionsin Puerto Rico, we have a
character called Juan Bobo.
He's like.
(26:21):
In the story.
He's like the dumbest person inthe village, but at the end of
the day, he saves the day.
He's like the dummy, you know?
Or the Campesino or the the hebottle in the forest.
You know, he doesn't know much.
He's not educated.
He's barefooted.
He saves the day.
So I, I, I love that more, youknow, and, and that's when I
started looking for people whoare like, who are like backwards
(26:43):
in, in, in Puerto Ricansociety, they had this profound
wisdom, you know, and it wasrelated in a Taino spirituality.
As one elder once taught me,Hey man, the Christians, they
always look at heaven.
We look at the earth, you know.
Nicte-Ha (27:00):
Yeah, they always want to escape, right?
They want to escape.
They want to get away.
And I'm like, the earth feedsus, like it clothes us, the
trees breathe out the oxygen webreathe in.
Like we evolve for thisplanet,, why do you want to get
away?
I agree with you.
They always look at the heaven,but like, look at the earth
(27:21):
under your feet.
And so I've noticed that youspeak Taino and you have words
from Taino.
So how did you, how did youfind somebody to teach you the
Taino words?
Is there a Taino languagerevival that kind of goes along
with the spiritual effort thatyou're putting forth?
DJ Sanakori (27:39):
That's a very good question.
I personally am illiterate whenit comes to the Taino,
language.
through the years, since 1994,I've been trying to learn
different words, differentphrases, which I do.
I know some phrases.
I know some common words, thatsnuck into the Spanish language,
like, things like that.
(28:00):
Tobacco, you know, there's alltypes of words.
But the thing is that I'm badwith languages.
I admit it, man.
I'm really bad.
back in the nineties, Iremember, they would speak this
dialect, you know, we were allintrigued by it.
And, then later on in, myjourney, I met Dr.
Yari Melendez, who was ananthropologist in Puerto Rico,
(28:21):
who actually led an indigenouscommunity in Puerto Rico, And
she actually spent time with theY U and, Columbia.
The Ggo.
What the Spanish call theCaribs, but that's kind of
controversial word, but so shesat with all these different
communities, and she created anice system, beautiful system of
(28:43):
dialect.
And, she was teaching thechildren in Puerto Rico.
emergence class starting inkindergarten, all the way to
high school.
Unfortunately, she died.
She never was able to publishher book.
And the most recent times,Javier Hernandez wrote a book
called Boringaniki and it's anattempt of creating a system,
(29:08):
you know, a basic system, youknow, hello, how are you, you
know, face, head everything,which was rooted a lot in the
Wai'i religion, which is thelargest speaking Arawak language
group right now.
But those are our ancestors.
and then Hiawaha, which isanother indigenous Caribbean,
(29:30):
tribe, just they came out withtheir book and now the tribe
that I'm part of, they're,they're also working on the
dialect.
So, so right now, what's reallycool, that big wave.
Is towards language, speakingup, the more dialects, the
better, I think.
Nicte-Ha (29:44):
Yeah, I think a lot of indigenous people and tribal
people in the Americas arerealizing how important it is,
how much goes along withlanguage, language carries so
much.
It carries how you view gender,how you view other beings in
the world.
And, it just carries so much.
I'm trying to learn Nahuatl andthat's, that's tough.
I bought a book and I got twoyoung kids and I'm like, man, I
(30:08):
speak one and three quarterslanguages right now.
do I get better at Spanish ordo I try and teach myself
Nahuatl?
But I think I'm going to, I'mgoing to keep.
Pushing it because I'm likepretty sure just based on,
generally where my people arefrom and where my ancestors are
from, I'm pretty sure I'mlearning nawa, but people just
think like, Oh, Mexico isAztecs.
And you're like, no, there'sactually a lot of different
(30:30):
tribal groups in Mexico thatwere subjugated by the Aztecs,
so, there were more people thanjust the Aztecs there.
I think a big thing for MexicanAmericans in the United States
is we latched on really stronglyto this idea of Aslan and the
Aztecs is this, very advancedcivilization.
There were a lot of otheraspects to their civilization
(30:52):
that, were, you know, just humanbeings, right?
Cruel and beautiful andterrible and kind, just like.
Everybody lives in their fullspectrum in their in their
civilizations, right?
So, is there kind of a similar,story or mythology building
that's within the, Puerto Ricancommunity around indigeneity.
(31:15):
Cause like Mexican Americancommunity since the sixties,
right?
Since the Chicano movementsreally built up this, attachment
to this ideology around theAztecs.
And so I'm just wondering ifyou guys have similar
mythologies and stories that youguys have have latched on to in
the United States
DJ Sanakori (31:31):
yeah, you know, there's something about in
Puerto Rico that's verymystical.
We call Borinquen.
It's very mystical about it,especially the people when you
go to the country and you speakto the people.
Do come from the mountains.
They always have these stories,you know, these cuentos, you
know, these, these folklorestories.
And a lot of it deals like withthat trickster kind of stories,
(31:54):
you know, Juan Bobo and so on.
And they also have differentscenes, you know, different
cuentos, but a lot of itreleased to the Indian, you
know, kind of the mobile, thenoble Indian, you know,
thankfully, thankfully.
I'm grateful for it.
Ramon by name left the workbehind.
(32:14):
So those are our sacred texts,you know, in, the book, when he
published it and gave it toColumbus at the end of the book,
he's like, I don't know what'sfirst, I don't know what's last.
And it was very confusing forhim.
He couldn't get it.
A couple of times he said, Oh,this is, this is definitely
devil worship.
And then it was another.
(32:34):
European scholar Peter Monner,he, he also got a glimpse of
this work and he added hiscommentary, but that exists now.
So the, the present thing, youknow, right now, we've been
pushing this whole, we need tolearn this.
We need to live this.
These are our traditions Therewas a famous book that came out,
The Cave of the Jaguar, byAntonio Arroyo Stevens.
(32:56):
He was the first,anthropologist, Puerto Rican,
who compared the differentreligions, different myths,
mythologies, to the Tainomythologies, so, so called.
You know, using their language.
Nicte-Ha (33:12):
Yeah, I know.
I love, how it's like, Oh, theBible is the Bible, but all the
rest of your creation stories,that's just a myth.
DJ Sanakori (33:18):
Yeah, exactly.
It was called a myth.
It's our sacred texts.
But so, he compared it and, andman, he put us right up there.
So the Greeks and every, heeven shared some comparisons
with the Aztecs and also theSouth Americans, it's like there
was this one common ancientknowledge and everyone had a
(33:39):
piece of it.
And that's how you know, I hada, I might ask this out a piece
of it.
So I'm very proud of it.
So I'm always teaching it, overand over again.
And in my podcast, tiny radio.
com.
I'm always, going over thatcreation stories and it just
makes me laugh how they workthese digs in it, Like there's
one part that they're witnessinghow they build this structure
(34:01):
made out of palms.
Well, some people call a hut,whatever, and then they don't
keep the sacred objects inthere, you know, and they were
living beans.
These were living beans,spirits, right.
And then they will feed itfood.
Everyone will get food, getwater, you know, just like the
modern spiritualists who feedstheir statues, right?
(34:22):
So, and then the author islike, Oh yeah.
Oh, I can't wait to see them.
Eat all that food, you know,like, you know what I mean?
And he's an indirect jokes, youknow, like digs, right?
Nicte-Ha (34:35):
came into the Americas and they did a lot of that kind
of recording of nativereligion.
And then they did what theCatholic church did everywhere.
Like, oh, okay, we'll take thisand then we can connect Jesus
to this and we can kind of takethis template and then we can
put our spiritual template ontop of it.
And that's how we can explainChristianity to these people.
I'm hopefully going to talk toan Aztec reconstructionist who's
(34:57):
leading mostly digitalcommunity of younger people who
are interested in exploring theAztec religion and Pantheon.
And it's interesting seeingthat grow up.
I'm one of the older people ontheir, community on discord.
DJ Sanakori (35:14):
Oh, wow.
Nicte-Ha (35:14):
And so it's wonderful to see people exploring their
heritage.
But at the same time, I'm like,I'm 43.
I'm not old, but all of you are21.
DJ Sanakori (35:23):
Oh, wow.
Oh, that's good.
Young at heart, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Spirit.
Young at heart.
Yeah.
Nicte-Ha (35:32):
And it's great to see them connecting over the
internet.
I mean, is that, that seemslike that is a really good
source for a lot of people whoare.
Reaching out and trying to findout more about their indigenous
heritage.
So has that helped you guys?
Obviously you have a podcast,which I will link.
And other than that, you seethe digital presence as being
really helpful in spreading theword about Taino practices.
DJ Sanakori (35:52):
Oh, definitely.
You know, you know, back in thelate 2000s, I want to say it
was 2016.
I'm sure.
The UN had an indigenous forumand, and, and the indigenous
forum was talking about howindigenous peoples, they have to
use media, they have to use theinternet to, to, to share these
stories, to teach, you know, sothat kind of inspired me, I was
(36:15):
like, Oh man, that's cool, youknow, like podcasts and radio
shows and, you know, videos andstuff like that.
So I got to meet some, someindigenous peoples that were
doing stuff like that.
So that inspired me.
So I think that's definitelygreat.
Well, only problem is I thinkit's 50% great.
The other 50% is meeting inperson.
(36:36):
I think that that equallyimportant because sometimes the
media, social media, internet,it can separate us too, because
when we get too comfortable onthe keyboard.
But it's very important to meetin person.
So on Taino Radio recently I'vebeen trying to do events in the
community.
Recently I did a ceremony inIngle Hill Park, with the
(36:58):
Chiracapac Earth Keepers toconnect people.
And some people, a lot ofpeople came.
It was really nice, differentpeople.
Dominican, they came and, youknow, we did some prayers and
stuff.
That's very important, youknow, to meet in person.
Nicte-Ha (37:15):
Yeah, ceremony and community, because religious
practice of oneness is prettyhard.
You need that community.
And we need people like you whoare willing to lead those
public ceremonies.
And I know you talk about it alot in your podcast, but can you
give people who are listening,like a little bit of a, just an
overview of who the creator isin the, Taino tradition, what
(37:37):
the cosmology looks like?
DJ Sanakori (37:40):
Yeah, well, most, most of us talk about Yoka Hu,
Bagua, Manokoti.
So Yo Ka Hoo is the Yukaspirit, the Yuka.
I don't know if you know, you,you got comes from the South
America, right?
It's a staple food,carbohydrates, vitamins,
minerals.
Nicte-Ha (37:58):
Really delicious when fried.
DJ Sanakori (38:00):
Oh, there we go.
Fried yucca is like my favoritething.
Oh, there you go.
So there you go.
Nicte-Ha (38:05):
Better than potatoes.
I'm just going to say it.
I'm going to put it out there.
I'm sorry, Peruvians.
I'm sorry.
But yucca, fried yucca, justmuch better than potato.
DJ Sanakori (38:14):
Yeah, exactly.
And then, and then the, allright the Taino ancestors, they
used to make the cassava bread,the yucca bread.
That will last a whole year ofour molding, which is
interesting.
And, oh man, later I'll sharesomething, but the thing is that
so Yoka Hu, right?
Yuka spirit, Bagua means thewaters, the ocean, Marakoti, who
(38:37):
had no father.
And then the story goes on, hehad a mother.
So I'm like, wait a minute,hold on.
So if Yoka Hu.
It's this creator, right?
Masculine, right?
Had a mother.
So wait a minute.
Had no father.
We had a mother.
So the mother has to be alsoSupreme being right.
So they didn't have a dualismhere.
(38:59):
There's that dualism, feminineand masculine.
So our ancestors, you know,that that's the way they, they,
they saw the creation story as,as both masculine and feminine,
you know, mother.
And son, that's why it wasn'tso difficult.
Even I think in a Mexicanculture, you know, our lady,
Guadalupe, you know CariraleCobre in Cuba, you know, and
(39:23):
that was the first statue theygave us of the Virgin Mary, you
know, so holding on to Jesus asa boy, you know, so, or as a
baby, so it's like that's ourcreation story, you know, that,
that, that, that's our supremebeings.
So it's, it's a two spirit kindof situation.
Yucca who is the male is themale aspect of the Supreme being
(39:47):
who, who is seen as is, youknow, the force behind the
Yucca, but basically, yeah, theYucca spirit, the force behind
the Yucca, the growth of theYucca, the ocean.
Right.
The ocean feeds us, the fish,substance, right?
And then he, who had no father.
But then his mother, we see asthis divine mother.
(40:09):
The divine feminine, right?
And then...
And then there's that wholething with with the Europeans
say that animism, whereeverything has a spirit.
It's really complicated.
You know, reading the story andthen you try to figure it out
on face value.
Nicte-Ha (40:26):
And then also apply it to like how you do with
personal practice.
That's been a thing that that'sthe thing that I'm struggling
with is just connecting andfiguring out what my personal
practice and my everydaypractice looks like, since I
kind of left.
Any spiritual practice.
I just didn't do anything.
I didn't even give thanks orgratitude before a meal.
I just sort of lived my lifeand now coming back at 40
(40:47):
because I had two kids and Isuddenly became really important
to me.
Right?
Like, what am I going to passon to them?
Because you're more as aperson, you're more than just,
you do more than exist, right?
You have to figure out how youbring beauty and what you love
and what kind of person you wantyour kids to be.
And it really woke me up to thefact that I didn't have that in
(41:09):
my life.
I was just sort of, I wasdrinking, I was partying, I was
hanging out, I was playing videogames, but I wasn't really
connected to me as a, as a humanbeing.
And so my kids kicked off thatjourney into figuring out how to
build ritual into my life andfigure out what I wanted to
believe in and what I wanted topass on.
And it's, picking out what kindof traditions to follow.
(41:36):
It a little nice to know youcan look back and be like, Oh,
okay.
Like this is what they did.
These are the names of thegods.
And I don't have to do itexactly that way.
Or I don't know if that'sexactly how it was done, but at
least I can.
I can honor that and bring thatforward in my, in my life.
And I've had some people askme, why are you doing this in a
podcast form?
And so I know my answer to whyI'm doing it in a podcast form,
(41:59):
but I'm curious if you have a,perspective or thought on the
particular media that you'vechosen.
DJ Sanakori (42:05):
You know, it's funny, I'm going to date myself
back in the seventies, back inthe seventies, there was a movie
that always used to show on TV,it was called the planet of the
apes, the original planet ofthe apes in the seventies.
And there was one scene thatkind of blew me away.
I think it was called thebattle of the planet of the
apes.
It was the, it was, I think itwas the third movie, I forget
(42:28):
which one.
But it was the child ofCornelius and Zerah, caesar,
Caesar.
So Caesar actually went to theForbidden Planet.
And when they went into theForbidden Planet, it was
actually civilization in thepast, human civilization that
treated apes like slaves, youknow?
So he found archived footage ofhis mother and father, you
(42:53):
know?
And he was watching his father,Cornelius and Zero, and he was
getting these ideas like, Oh myGod, this is where we came from.
This is the oppression that welive, you know?
Oh my God, they were trying tomake a difference.
So as a kid, that kind of, thatkind of planted a seed, like,
wouldn't it be cool to go backin your past and find these
(43:16):
videos of the Taino, right?
Like, man, maybe they, youknow, they left something
behind, they teaching us.
But when I first found outabout podcasting and you know, I
love radio, you know, I used tolove Wolfman Jack, Wolfman Jack
kid talking from.
So it all came together, youknow, like bam, bam, bam, bam.
(43:39):
And then when the UN was like,yeah, you got to use the media.
Yes.
So when I do my radio show, I'mnot thinking of present so much
because I'm thinking about thefuture, say 200 years from now.
Right.
After, after a flood or, youknow, climate crash and crisis,
whatever, they're going to finda podcast.
(43:59):
That's going to say Tainoradio.
Nicte-Ha (44:02):
So, when you run ceremony in public, in a public
space, what's the feeling?
And, if somebody wants to jointhe ceremony, who's not
necessarily Taino or PuertoRican, do you consider your
practice to be open?
So if people get curious, theylisten to this, and they feel
connection, right?
I think there's a lot of peopleout there seeking for a
(44:22):
connection, and I think there'sa lot of.
white people, white Europeandescended people who are turning
their backs on Christianity.
you see the numbers of churchgoing people declining in the
United States.
And so I think there's thishunger for people to look for a
more earth centered connectionspirituality.
And there's a lot of people whoare appropriating Lakota
(44:44):
beliefs or other indigenousbeliefs who are European
descended people.
do you consider what you teachto be a closed practice and then
a follow up question, is.
Since the spiritual connectionis so strong with the island of
Puerto Rico with the spirit ofthe Yucca and the sea, how does
that translate and how do youstill feel that connection,
(45:05):
being so far away in New York,having a land based practice.
Even though you're, displacedfrom that land.
So it's a two part question.
One, do you consider yourpractice more closed?
And two, how do you practiceyour land based spirituality in
a land that's removed from thoseforces?
DJ Sanakori (45:25):
Yeah, there's four kinds of peoples that I invite
into my, into the ceremony thatI lead, the way I was taught.
The first people I invite isthe the human race, you know,
the humans.
Then the animal world, mineralworld, and the plant world.
So in my ceremonies, you'regoing to have all those four
aspects.
So speaking of the humanbeings, you know, hey, Any
(45:49):
culture in the world, you know,you're invited, you know, we're
one people, you know, we're onerace.
Only thing is I do say that,you know, wherever land I'm
doing a ceremony at, I do mybest always to honor those
people.
So I do mostly Nimue Hill Park,which is Shiraka Pak.
That's the word that the thepeople use, the Lenape, land by
(46:11):
the edge of the water.
So I honor the Lenape peoplebefore anything.
You know if I'm in Boan, youknow, honor, you know and then,
and I tell people whereveryou're from, say you're England,
you're German, whatever, youknow, honor your ancestor.
Cuz at one point we all livedon the land at one point we're
all indigenous.
And as the Hopi, say, at onepoint we all separated, many
(46:36):
went their ways and, andspecifically many tribes lost
that, that connection to theland, you know, Which was
suffering now.
So I always invite people to dothat.
You always see plants in myceremonies, the fruits of those
plants and, and the minerals,you know, definitely the mineral
people, very important, ourbody contains a hundred minerals
(46:59):
about those minerals.
And we have 99, we're going toget sick.
So we're all, we're all one.
We're all one.
So I always teach people that.
And I don't charge money.
It's all about community.
As Black Elk ones say, mendingthe sacred hoop.
You know, it was broken.
Thanks Columbus broke it.
(47:20):
So we're going to, we're goingto amend it.
You know, we've got amended andit's going to call.
And it means that we all got towork together.
A couple of weeks I had a greathonor.
I was invited to participate inan African festival of uniting
Africa with the diaspora andthey invited me to represent, so
I think that's amazing becausethat's the whole thing, man.
(47:41):
That's the many in the hoop.
What's your second question?
I forgot.
Nicte-Ha (47:45):
My second question was,, you practice the Taino
tradition, connected to the landand if you're removed from that
land how do you bring thoseforces up with you?
DJ Sanakori (47:57):
Yeah.
Well, I, I, I always lived inthe urban cities and here in New
York City but mygreat-grandmother always taught
me to, you always have to haveplants in the house.
It's gonna give you fresh air,it's gonna give you good luck.
So I always try to have plantsin my apartment, right now I'm
rented a room, so I have mywindows, it has plants.
You need that connection nomatter where you are.
(48:18):
And if you can have plants, yougo to the park.
One of my weaknesses as aTaino, and I'll admit this, you
know, it wasn't my parentsfault, you know, like I said,
they fell in love and, the waythe tradition was at that time,
they had to come back to NewYork.
If you ask my mother, she wouldhave loved to still live by the
beach, and I was born here inNew York.
(48:39):
I can't take that back.
And I know a lot of people fromthe islands call me gringo,
because I wasn't born on theisland.
But I'm proud to say that thepeople that taught me were from
the island.
So they taught me the island,so when I go back to the island,
I feel I'm home.
Through the stories, right?
So when they talk about thetrees, when they talk about the
(48:59):
ocean, the rivers, it's familiarfriends.
But it's a battle.
If you're in our communities,if you're from the diaspora, if
you're from the islands, youknow, we're still on Mother
Earth.
You know, it's one big earth,one big mother.
but where you're living now,you make it your homeland as
(49:21):
well.
It's very important, veryessential to have that
connection to your homeland, andI think Caribbean people have
that in their spirit, eitherthrough a flag or going back
home to be buried, you know, orto buy that house.
Just the other day, you know,I've been suffering from high
(49:43):
blood pressure and they've beenchecking my heart.
They've been checking mykidneys and the doctor said, we
can't find anything wrong withyou.
Why are you having a high bloodpressure?
Right.
I said, I know why she looks atme.
He's like, I need to live bythe beach.
Give me a beach and I'll haveperfect blood pressure.
Give me give me some time tojust float in the ocean, right?
(50:05):
Soak up the sun.
Yo, give me a canoe.
Let me fish all day.
I'll fish.
There you go.
I'll plant my yucca, you know,and I'll fight the neighbors.
Yo, I don't have no bloodpressure, no high blood
pressure.
And she just laughed.
Nicte-Ha (50:18):
For real.
but community sharing andhaving your fingers in the earth
like super important for usspiritually as humans.
DJ Sanakori (50:27):
You know, you know, I give you a quick story, but
back in 2019, I was goingthrough a nervous breakdown.
A lot of people that knew me atthe time.
They were shocked cause I'm asocial worker by trade and I do
therapy and people were shockedlike, yo, you know, all the
answers you, you know what youneed to do.
(50:47):
I could see it in people'seyes.
I was like, what the hell?
Like, but I was lost.
So, so I went back to Moniqueand I went back to the island.
I went back like three and ahalf months with nothing,
nothing.
I remember telling my kids,I'll be back, man, but just,
just give me a little bit time.
And I was, I was down to likemy last money, and I remember I
(51:12):
used to go buy a 5 meal at, youknow, you know, the roadside
vendors.
Yeah, your traditional foods,right?
So you used to do rice, beans,or meat and a soda for five
dollars, So, so that was my mealevery day.
That was my lunch.
Sometimes my lunch and dinnerSo he always used to ask me, Oh,
did you find a job?
(51:33):
Did you find a job?
Did you find a job?
Never stopped asking me formonths.
I mean, I says, I don't knowwhat it is in New York.
I can get a job in two dayshere.
It's no work.
There's no jobs.
And he's like, welcome toPuerto Rico.
So one day he bends over and Itell you, I mean, I knew he was
going to ask me, did you get ajob?
(51:53):
You know what he said?
And this, this totally blew meaway.
And this is the spirit of theTaino.
He says, brother, don't ask.
I'm not going to ever chargeyou again.
Just come here for food.
And that's just like, wow.
The next day I was going backto New York and I didn't have
(52:14):
the heart to tell him, you know,that was leaving.
But that's the spirit, man, ofthe island, you know.
That's the spirit of thehomeland.
It will take care of you.
It will embrace you, but youhave to find the right people.
Because some people won'tembrace you.
That's not the Taino spirit.
The Taino spirit will be like,nah, man, you're home.
(52:36):
You're home, brother.
You know?
So if there's any advice outthere, any Taino, when you go
home, if you get any negativity,whatever, nah, man.
Just look for the right people,look for that right person to
take you in, to teach you theway I was taught and and the
sacred medicine I was taught,make sure people eat, make sure
(52:59):
people drink, make sure they'reall right, and don't let them
leave if they're not all right.
Find help.
That's it.
That's the, that's, that's whatthe Tainos practice and this is
what the Spanish try to takeaway, you know, the invaders,
Nicte-Ha (53:14):
but they didn't.
And it's alive.
And I want to say, thank you.
I want to say thank you forsharing that medicine and that
teaching with us and that wisdomwith us.
Thank you.
It's been really beautiful.
Thank you so much.
Oh, Bomaton.
Thank you for having me, man.
So fun.
Gracias.
Thank you.
I've, I have run out of time.
I have to end the, our, our,our conversation, but I just
(53:37):
really appreciate your time andyour openness.
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