October 29, 2024 • 34 mins
What if the future of higher education doesn't lie in reinventing the wheel, but in reimagining who the wheel serves? Join me for an insightful conversation with Dr. Lisa Vollendorf, president of Empire State University, where we tackle this compelling question head-on. As a trailblazer in the SUNY system, Dr. Vollendorf shares how Empire State is setting new standards for online education, creating a flexible and inclusive learning environment for students aged 15 to 80. We shed light on the university's transformative journey from its 1971 inception to its current role as a leader in online education, especially post-pandemic, while emphasizing the shift in perception from non-traditional to the new traditional learners.
Navigating the complex world of higher education leadership, we confront the challenges of balancing innovation with tradition and fostering inclusivity by valuing students' prior experiences. At Empire State University, inclusivity isn't just a buzzword; it's a practice, offering credit transfers and valuing diverse backgrounds. Through our discussion, we explore the delicate act of refining brand identity and embracing artificial intelligence, essential for modernizing operations and meeting the demands of today's learners. This episode promises to provoke thought on how universities can truly reflect and adapt to the evolving educational landscape, ensuring every learner's needs are met with precision and care.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant, the podcast where wepull back the curtain and break
down the people, the policiesand the politics of our higher
education system.
In this episode, I talk with DrLisa Volendorf, president of
Empire State University.
Empire State is one of theState University of New York's
(00:31):
campuses and it was specificallydesigned to lead in innovating
teaching and learning.
I talk with President Volendorfabout the mission of Empire
State and how the university isinnovating to better serve the
working learners in the state ofNew York.
I also get her thoughts abouthow her and her team are
thinking about leveraging AI tobetter serve their learners.
(00:53):
So with that introduction, lisa, welcome to the Rant podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Thank you for having me on Eloy.
It's such a privilege.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, it's great to have you.
President Volendorf, thank youfor taking time out of your busy
schedule.
I know there's always lotsgoing on.
So Empire State is part of theSUNY system and it was founded
in 1971.
It was founded on a model ofinnovation and flexibility in
learning.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Tell us about your mission and how it's evolved,
particularly since the pandemicand, since you took on your
tenure there at Empire State,had the vision that, even though
(01:41):
all of SUNY got built there are64 SUNY campuses today, and
SUNY was built explicitly toserve the people of New York so
that they didn't have to travelfar to access public higher
education.
It's a wonderful vision.
There are very few states thathave such a complete vision.
California is another, as weknow, and what I love about
(02:02):
Empire is that it was believedat the time that it wasn't
enough, and we know today that'strue.
it wasn't enough to have a wholesystem of four-year
institutions complemented by anextensive system of two-year
institutions, because reallywhat was needed was an
additional innovative campus,which is what Empire State was
(02:25):
founded to be.
We were founded to serve theentire state and to do that
through what in the day wascalled distance learning, so
traditionally, our students werenon-traditional students.
So that's where we are todaypost-pandemic world in 2024.
Empire, already in 1995, hadstarted to experiment with, and
(02:48):
begin to be in the online space.
We were 50% online in 2007, 85%online going into the pandemic,
and we came out on the otherside, 98% online.
So we are SUNY's leading onlineuniversity.
We are fundamentally aninstitution that was created to
meet learners where they are,and where they are today is
(03:10):
online.
So we're serving fourgenerations of learners, age 15
to 80.
And I couldn't be prouder towork at a university that that
truly is diverse in itsinclusion and really embraces
high-quality access toaffordable education in ways
(03:31):
that are more flexible thananyone even could have imagined
50 years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well, it's wonderful that somebody imagined before
the pandemic that they neededEmpire State University, because
what we've learned since thepandemic is this is absolutely
critical for state systems likeSUNY.
I know this was the case inCalifornia.
We didn't realize that we weregoing to have a pandemic when we
were building Calbright Collegefully online, but fortunately
(03:59):
for us and for the system, wedid so.
You mentioned a key phrase thatyour university was imagined to
serve non-traditional learners,but if you look at the data now
, the majority of learners arethe kind of learners that you
just described, so they'rereally now the traditional
learner and have been for quitesome time.
(04:20):
How do you reconcile that whenyou're talking with your
colleagues and this notion ofEmpire State just serving
non-traditional learning comesup.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, you will never hear me outside of this
conversation sayingnon-traditional learners, so I
have to have a caveat there.
I find it very interesting thatthe rest of the nation is
struggling in the highereducation sphere to find ways to
serve learners of all ages,which is how I speak about our
students.
We currently are serving moreGen Z students than we ever
(04:59):
would have imagined possible.
So for us, non-traditionalstudents are actually the
traditional students at otherinstitutions.
So we are seeing an increase inteenagers and post-high school
students coming directly to us,as we're seeing across the
country, as you're seeing atCalbright in California and, as
I know, we're seeing onlineinstitutions nationwide.
(05:21):
So we are embracing youngerlearners, who are, for us,
non-traditional, at the sametime that we're continuing to
think about how to serve fourgenerations of learners.
At any given time, everybodyhas different expectations and
needs.
So the space that we've reallyleaned into post-pandemic is in
(05:44):
the sphere of holistic studentsupports for diverse students,
regardless, really, of wherethey live or where they come
from, but specifically tailoredto what they're telling us their
needs are.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
You mentioned the growth in online enrollments,
particularly post-pandemic, thatyour university has experienced
, and, given the huge growth inonline learning across the
country and enormous amount ofinnovation that has taken place
recently with regard to the useof technology to support
students, how is Empire Stateinnovating today to keep up with
(06:21):
those changes?
You mentioned the fourthgeneration of learners.
They're all, as you said, indifferent places, in different
spaces and they learndifferently.
How are you thinking aboutinnovation to better serve those
learners going forward?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
One thing I love about Empire that is different
from anywhere else I've had theprivilege of working in my
career is that innovation andflexibility, and therefore
iteration, are built into ourDNA.
So I have such great regard formy colleagues at Empire, for
(06:57):
people who came before us,because we come to Empire, those
of us who are relatively newand are embraced by an ethos
that really values every studentand values the opportunity to
learn from our students aboutwhat is needed, how we build out
(07:21):
universal design for learningin our master course shell, the
ways in which we experiment withinteraction that is both
synchronous and asynchronous.
90% of our courses areasynchronous, in spite of the
fact that students tell us overand over again they would like
more synchronous opportunitiesfor interaction and for
(07:43):
coursework.
The reality is these are busypeople.
They're caretakers, they work.
Our students have obligations,again, regardless of what their
age is and regardless of howmany credits they had when they
came to us.
They all have complex lives.
So, as we move increasinglyinto the asynchronous space
(08:03):
because that's what studentstell us more responsive to our
students and helping us learnhow to take some of those
(08:27):
low-level tasks off of ourfaculty and staff's plates so we
can focus on more meaningfulinteraction with our students.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's great to hear and I know that's a conversation
happening across the country.
Now you there in New York.
You serve a wide demographic oflearners.
They all have differentchallenges depending on where
they're at in the state, wherethey're at the country operate.
Are there any things that areunique to your situation there
(09:11):
in New York with your learners,or do you find more commonality
than uniqueness?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Thank you for that question.
I think a lot about what itmeant to have the opportunity to
work for 16 years in theCalifornia State University
system.
I worked at big, urban-servingpublic universities At Long
Beach State.
I was at San Jose State.
I moved to Sonoma, which was asuburban, ex-urban, smaller
(09:41):
institution with a differentstudent demographic really.
But the overarching experiencethat I had in California was
wrapped around a very clearvalue system that I carry with
me to this day, which reallyhinges on Access to quality.
(10:02):
Higher education should be aright for all and it remains a
privilege because of all thebarriers that we place on people
from all backgrounds, and wereally need to be continuing to
find ways to break down thosebarriers and serve more people.
So I would say that in New Yorkand California we carry that
(10:25):
ethos with us and that being anempire now at Empire State
University, where we serve16,000 students and we're
growing.
We grew 12% last year and wehave the goal of continuing to
grow to 20,000 by 2028.
Grow to 20,000 by 2028, we'regrowing in service to a
(10:50):
population that continues to beleft behind by almost all
sectors.
Within public higher educationand within the privates as well,
we serve students who have many, many credits from many
different institutions over manyyears, or students who come to
us with credits that they tookas dual or concurrent enrollment
in high school or just afterhigh school, they enrolled in
community college.
(11:11):
Unlike most institutions, wevalue our students' experience.
We value it to the extent thatwe give and have for decades
credit for prior learning, socredit for life experience.
For decades credit for priorlearning, so credit for life
experience, as well as up to 93credits of transfer from other
(11:31):
institutions.
So that is an ethos ofinclusivity the likes of which I
had never seen before I came toEmpire State University and I
really think it's a model for usto look closely at and consider
, because we actually embracewhat everybody knows is the gold
standard, which is fulltransferability.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That's absolutely right, and you mentioned
something that I want to focuson just for a minute.
This whole issue of credit forprior learning is a big topic
across the country Communitycolleges and four-year public
universities.
Ace weighs in on this issue.
(12:13):
So many of our learners areworking learners, whether they
come from the military intohigher education or come from
working environments where weknow that they are learning.
We know that they're gainingskills, and we in higher
education have really had atough time.
I'd say we've failed mostlearners when it comes to
transferring that experience toskills.
How has Empire really honed inon that and built a model that
(12:36):
really seems to be working forlearners when it comes to credit
for prior learning?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, credit for prior learning, as your preface
there to your question indicates, is a very complex beast.
It requires that an institutionstop what it's doing, because
most institutions have built outcurricula that are very tightly
constructed, well-constructedindeed, but do not allow for or
(13:04):
account for students as wholepersons coming to us with prior
life experience and, frankly, donot take into account or want
to take into account the creditsthat they have rightfully
earned and worked hard to earnat other institutions.
So I think that if I had onething to say about how to build
(13:26):
a university from scratch, if wewere all able to hit a button
and do a reset, the reset wouldrequire that we assume that our
students will have a diversityof experiences, a diversity of
credits already booked, let'ssay, from other institutions,
and that our starting pointshould be to ask how do we serve
(13:50):
each of those students withintegrity at our institution?
And that is not the ethos thatwe bring to the table,
especially for your institutions.
We bring to the table an ethosthat is very much under pressure
financially, absolutely Alsovery much under pressure around.
Our curricula are set and theyare fixed and we need people to
(14:13):
come through our curricula to besure that they are going to
achieve the learning outcomesthat we have designated
ourselves.
So we have an individuality ofspirit.
I would say in higher educationat each of our institutions
that in the aggregate, does adisservice to and frankly, as
you say, fails, a broaderstudent population.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I hope many of our listeners who work at the more
traditional public and privatefor universities just listen to
that answer, because this isabsolutely what we need to do
different in higher education.
In my view, this is why there'sfrustration with higher
education as we know it todaythis failure to meet learners
where they're at.
So appreciate the work thatyou're doing there.
(14:57):
Now let me ask you a questionabout how you balance the more
traditional viewpoints with someof the more innovative
viewpoints that you just talkedabout.
You've been in higher educationfor some time.
You've been in various rolesNow as president of Empire State
University.
(15:18):
How do you think aboutbalancing tradition and
innovation and how they're inconflict sometimes?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
The conflict and the tension that we feel in higher
ed around tradition andinnovation, I think is also at
the core of the problem that youwere referring to in the last
question and answer,fundamentally, the belief system
that we brought to the tablewhen we built out American
(15:50):
public higher education andprivate for that matter the
belief system that we brought tothe table when we built out
American higher education is onesteeped in tradition, and it is
steeped in a tradition that iselitist and narrow and served a
very, very small swath of theexclusively male population in
(16:15):
this country.
And to the extent that we clingto tradition for tradition's
sake, we are clinging to anelitist and sexist and racist
and truly just exclusionary viewof what higher education
(16:35):
actually should be or could betoday.
So I feel very strongly that, asI am at an institution, leading
an institution that is verymuch focused on flexibility,
innovation and learning from ourlearners, that we are
well-positioned to empire, toquestion everything that we do,
(17:00):
and I say that and I also wantto say that we have, like
everyone else, a lot of tensionaround what tradition should let
go, what we should reshape andwhat we should create anew in
(17:30):
service to the students we servetoday.
This is very hard work, and weare thoughtful and highly
educated humans those of us whowork in higher ed.
So it takes time, and I feelthe empire definitely has the
belief that that we can and mustdo better year over year, and
(17:51):
that that does require that wemake changes according to, again
, what our students are tellingus they need, as opposed to what
we think we need as facultystaffs and leadership at the
institution.
And, like everyone else, we arein a complex human organization
and you'll ask me that questionand I guarantee you that all of
(18:15):
our other 1,399 employees willhave a slightly different answer
.
And that's the beauty of theeducational promise, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
No, that's right, and I think the more questions are
raised, the kind of questionsthat you're raising, the more
that we reflect on who we are aseducators, as institutions, and
remember to put the center atthe center the learner I think
the more responsive we will begoing forward.
(18:43):
So I appreciate that viewpoint.
Now, that's clearly a challengeof how we continue to reshape,
reimagine the way we think aboutpublic higher education, but
there's also lots of otherchallenges that confront higher
education leaders today.
This is a very treacherous timefor higher education leaders.
(19:04):
This is a very challenging time, particularly post-pandemic and
all the challenges that low andmoderate income learners face.
What are some of the greatestchallenges that you're facing as
a leader and what advice wouldyou have for up-and-coming
leaders who want to become apresident of a regional public
(19:25):
four-year university right now?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Well, I'll start with the end Eloy and say that the
past six months, on top of theprior four years, have presented
leadership challenges the likesof which nobody anticipated.
People who are doing their best, with their teams, in
(19:55):
consultation with faculty andstaff and students across the
nation, to really put their bestfoot forward.
So I want to acknowledge thatthe work that has been done and
the challenges that have beenfaced and will continue to be
faced, I think, into the fall atresidential campuses are
crushing and challenging.
And if there's anybody who'sthinking about becoming a
president power to you.
I will give you my cell phonenumber so you can call a
(20:19):
lifeline, as it were, if youphone a friend, if you need that
, because it is tough work outthere.
And I want to acknowledge thatfirst, because, when I shift to
my answer for my job at thisincredible institution, at this
incredible time, empire StateUniversity's biggest challenge
(20:41):
is how to grow with integrity,and we really spend most of our
time, I would say, in ourcabinet meetings and at the
leadership level trying to helpeach other, be responsive and be
proactive with regard to whatis needed to ensure that we're
(21:02):
supporting our faculty and staffto the extent feasible and
possible today and into thefuture so we can continue to
grow and serve our students well.
So this is a relatively uncommonchallenge, I would say, in
today's environment, and I willreiterate that it is a very
(21:22):
important challenge for us torise to because when Empire
State University and otherinstitutions out there like us
grow, we are growing in serviceto the student population you're
referencing.
We are growing in service topeople who feel that higher
education has failed them,because we have.
We are growing in service topeople in the military, whom you
(21:48):
referenced, and veterans whoare looking for a flexible way
for them to use their GI Billand to continue in their journey
once they leave the military.
We are growing in service tostudents who, time after time,
their credits were not takenfrom other institutions and they
(22:09):
could not piece together adegree even though they have, in
some cases, dozens of creditsthat they bring forward.
So I feel a sense of urgency andreally a sense of deep
commitment to growing theinstitution well, in service to
those students who deserve theirchance to dream and complete
(22:32):
their dream of achieving theircollege degree.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So we talked a lot about the challenges and you
very succinctly put forth someof the challenges that you face
and other leaders face.
And I think in part of youranswer you mention and you talk
about the opportunity withinthat challenge the opportunity
to really shine a light on whatlearners need today and to
(23:01):
reimagine the institution tobetter serve those learners.
But many public and privateinstitutions across the country
are struggling with enrollmentdecline.
They're struggling with thechallenge of an erosion in
confidence in the value thatthose institutions deliver to
(23:22):
their learners.
How have you and your team beenthinking about positioning
Empire State and clearly yourenrollment is growing, so you're
doing something right.
How are you and your teampositioning Empire State to deal
with some of those pressuresand to actually leverage the
demand from working learners toaccess a great post-secondary
(23:45):
experience?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I have so many simultaneous thoughts about this
question.
I'm going to say one that Inever would have said, even 10
years ago.
I came up through urbancomprehensive institutions that
were very large, pushing onbetween 30 and 40,000 students
in any given time, and we didn'tgive a lot of thought, I would
(24:11):
say, at those institutions tobrand identity.
I do think that the regionalpublic comprehensives in
particular, but also, I will say, many of the privates, and, as
a side note, I will note thatsince I moved to New York State
on July 1 of 2022, since I movedto New York State on July 1 of
(24:32):
2022, 15 schools have closed inthe state One size.
So I would say, number one,brand identity and brand clarity
is critically important.
You must have a brand identitythat is clear for students to
even know who you are and whatyou stand for, and this is very
(25:02):
hard when you say comprehensiveand brand identity, like those
two things together make it verydifficult to arrive at clarity
about the brand.
But to me, saying that you needbrand clarity is actually a way
to speak to you.
Really.
We really need, at ourinstitutions, to know what we're
good at and we need to have thecourage to leave behind the
things that either are notmission-centric and or we
(25:25):
haven't been able to drive up tothe level of quality that we
know our other programs are at.
So that's one piece of myanswer.
We landed on SUNY's leadingonline university for our
branding when we knew, a yearafter the pandemic, that
students were not wanting tocome to Empire anymore in person
(25:47):
.
We kept throwing up in personall over the state, throwing up
opportunities, confusing ourstudents, spending a lot of time
, then calling people to say,hey, your class meets tomorrow
in Buffalo, and they said whatdo you mean?
I thought you were online.
So I give that as an example ofour own learning and as we have
refined our brand identity, wealso have been refining how it
(26:13):
is that we then approach thecreation of a very strong and
holistic student support networkso that our students know that
they can come to us and if theyhave basic needs, if they need
to access a food pantry, theycan do that through us.
We have mental health services24-7.
(26:34):
We have a virtual food pantry.
That also is a portal thatenables us to connect students
to social services wherever theyare, whether they're in the
state or out of the state.
So we have been bringing somecreativity to the thinking
around student success.
That is exciting to me, it'svery energizing and it's helping
(26:56):
us continually refine inservice to what the students
tell us they need.
Those are a couple of my answers.
They may not be satisfying tomany folks out there, because I
think it is really hard to cometo consensus on any given campus
, including ours.
I will say we're 98% online andwe do have people in our
(27:20):
community who still are hopingand hold hope.
Hold that hope out for a daywhen students will return in
person and that ship seems tohave sailed.
Our students are telling usover and over again it has
sailed Again.
None of us is here to passjudgment on our colleagues or
other institutions.
(27:40):
We're all here, I think, tohelp each other be better.
That should be the ethos thatwe bring to our jobs in higher
education, because if we'rebetter, then more people can
have access to the degree thatthey deserve to have access to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that.
So let me ask you one finalquestion as we begin to wrap up,
and in particular, since youruniversity is charged with
innovating.
It's charged with re-imagininghow you meet learners where
(28:16):
they're at, and this year hasbeen the talk.
All year has been about AI andhow artificial intelligence is
going to change the environmentfor the learner, for the
institution, for how we operate,and so I'm sure you've heard
many of those conversations.
You can't go to a educationconference without somebody
(28:39):
talking about how AI is justgoing to change everything.
How are you and your teammaking sense of artificial
intelligence and what are theways in which you're thinking
about leveraging AI to bettersupport your learners?
Speaker 3 (29:07):
is a little bit of the stages of grief, as it were.
I think that many people werehoping that it was not what it
was all cracked up to be andthat maybe it would go away, and
there was some denial.
I think we are very much as acommunity and higher ed now in
the phase of acceptance and anempire.
We have had various groupsworking over the past I would
say almost year and a half nowlooking at what policies we
(29:30):
might need to change, how weneed to approach our universal
design for learning.
Master course shell, which wecontinuously update based on the
evidence and data that we pullfrom our Brightspace, is our
learning management system.
We work to update our coursesevery year in ways that are very
(29:51):
much informed by the data thatwe pull from Brightspace and
from what students are tellingus and faculty as well.
Aspect of how we intend to moveforward, our fall is going to
be very much informed by AI AIboot camp, lunch and learns
We've already had.
We have several already on thebooks.
(30:13):
We're trying to bring the wholeinstitution along and not
exclusively only train upfaculty so that they can be
well-informed in their teachingand learning, but we really want
teaching, learning andoperations holistically to be
lifted with these tools so thatwe can, as a university, be
(30:37):
well-informed, moving forward.
This is, I will say that, theadvent of generative AI.
Again, none of us could haveimagined a couple of years ago
that we would be where we aretoday, but it is challenging the
foundations of how we all weretrained in teaching and I think
(30:59):
it's also challenging thefoundations of what our learners
expect of themselves and oftheir university.
So I think it's an excitingtime.
It is a little bit scary,certainly, but I know already
that the ways in which we haveembedded AI in our operations
have helped us really advanceand help hundreds of students,
(31:22):
if not thousands, by now.
With the FAFSA fiasco, we cameout on the other side.
We are coming out on the otherside of the disastrous FAFSA
rollout stronger than we weregoing in last year, because we
leaned into AI as a way tosupport our staff, to be able to
help our students and ourprospective students know what
(31:46):
the options were, and comethrough AI.
So we have already found somereally exciting ways to be in
service to students that wecouldn't have imagined a couple
of years ago.
So I just love that abouteducation.
I love that we have open heartsfor learning in service to our
students, and at Empire we areworking hard to be sure that
(32:08):
none of our own people are leftbehind, so that we all have the
skills and at least the baselineunderstanding of what's
possible as we move forwardaround generative AI.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Well, on that very positive note, President
Volendorf, I really appreciateyou being on the RAND podcast.
I think all of us, particularlyin the state of New York and
throughout the country, arefortunate to have you, your
staff and your faculty workingto improve post-secondary
(32:40):
education for the learners thatwe all care about, and that is
the majority of learnersthroughout this country.
So thank you for the workyou're doing and, again, thanks
for being on the RENT podcast.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Thank you, eloy, for the opportunity, and I just want
to briefly say that I owe you apersonal thanks because when I
first started in California in2005, you were, of course, in
Long Beach leading the chargewith the Long Beach Promise and
Long Beach State and the schooldistrict and the community
college that you were leadingprovided a model for the nation.
(33:14):
That really was a model for how, if we collaborate and focus on
the students and focus on thefact that every student deserves
the right to dream their way toa college education, you led
the way for me to think about myown future in higher education
and my own future in highereducation leadership.
(33:35):
So that's a personal thank youto you.
Many years later, you probablydon't even know that that was
the case, but for me it was aninstrumental, it was an
important part of my life and ofmy career.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Well, thanks for that , and obviously it's because of
people like you that the LongBeach College Promise is what it
is and continues today.
So again, thank you, and thankyou for mentioning that I know
your former boss, king Alexander, is also a key architect in
that, as well as ChrisSteinhauser from Ambit Unified.
As a matter of fact, I may havethem both on this podcast one
(34:11):
of these days to reminisce aboutthose days.
All right.
Well, thanks everybody forlistening to my conversation
with Dr Lisa Volendorf,president of Empire State
University.
If you enjoyed this episode,hit the subscribe button,
Continue to follow us on thisYouTube channel or on your
favorite podcast platform, andwe will be back to you shortly
(34:32):
with another great interview.
Thanks for joining us,everybody.
Thank you.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant, the podcast where wepull back the curtain and break
down the people, the policiesand the politics of our higher
education system.
In this episode, I talk with DrLisa Volendorf, president of
Empire State University.
Empire State is one of theState University of New York's
(00:31):
campuses and it was specificallydesigned to lead in innovating
teaching and learning.
I talk with President Volendorfabout the mission of Empire
State and how the university isinnovating to better serve the
working learners in the state ofNew York.
I also get her thoughts abouthow her and her team are
thinking about leveraging AI tobetter serve their learners.
(00:53):
So with that introduction, lisa, welcome to the Rant podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Thank you for having me on Eloy.
It's such a privilege.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, it's great to have you.
President Volendorf, thank youfor taking time out of your busy
schedule.
I know there's always lotsgoing on.
So Empire State is part of theSUNY system and it was founded
in 1971.
It was founded on a model ofinnovation and flexibility in
learning.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Tell us about your mission and how it's evolved,
particularly since the pandemicand, since you took on your
tenure there at Empire State,had the vision that, even though
(01:41):
all of SUNY got built there are64 SUNY campuses today, and
SUNY was built explicitly toserve the people of New York so
that they didn't have to travelfar to access public higher
education.
It's a wonderful vision.
There are very few states thathave such a complete vision.
California is another, as weknow, and what I love about
(02:02):
Empire is that it was believedat the time that it wasn't
enough, and we know today that'strue.
it wasn't enough to have a wholesystem of four-year
institutions complemented by anextensive system of two-year
institutions, because reallywhat was needed was an
additional innovative campus,which is what Empire State was
(02:25):
founded to be.
We were founded to serve theentire state and to do that
through what in the day wascalled distance learning, so
traditionally, our students werenon-traditional students.
So that's where we are todaypost-pandemic world in 2024.
Empire, already in 1995, hadstarted to experiment with, and
(02:48):
begin to be in the online space.
We were 50% online in 2007, 85%online going into the pandemic,
and we came out on the otherside, 98% online.
So we are SUNY's leading onlineuniversity.
We are fundamentally aninstitution that was created to
meet learners where they are,and where they are today is
(03:10):
online.
So we're serving fourgenerations of learners, age 15
to 80.
And I couldn't be prouder towork at a university that that
truly is diverse in itsinclusion and really embraces
high-quality access toaffordable education in ways
(03:31):
that are more flexible thananyone even could have imagined
50 years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well, it's wonderful that somebody imagined before
the pandemic that they neededEmpire State University, because
what we've learned since thepandemic is this is absolutely
critical for state systems likeSUNY.
I know this was the case inCalifornia.
We didn't realize that we weregoing to have a pandemic when we
were building Calbright Collegefully online, but fortunately
(03:59):
for us and for the system, wedid so.
You mentioned a key phrase thatyour university was imagined to
serve non-traditional learners,but if you look at the data now
, the majority of learners arethe kind of learners that you
just described, so they'rereally now the traditional
learner and have been for quitesome time.
(04:20):
How do you reconcile that whenyou're talking with your
colleagues and this notion ofEmpire State just serving
non-traditional learning comesup.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, you will never hear me outside of this
conversation sayingnon-traditional learners, so I
have to have a caveat there.
I find it very interesting thatthe rest of the nation is
struggling in the highereducation sphere to find ways to
serve learners of all ages,which is how I speak about our
students.
We currently are serving moreGen Z students than we ever
(04:59):
would have imagined possible.
So for us, non-traditionalstudents are actually the
traditional students at otherinstitutions.
So we are seeing an increase inteenagers and post-high school
students coming directly to us,as we're seeing across the
country, as you're seeing atCalbright in California and, as
I know, we're seeing onlineinstitutions nationwide.
(05:21):
So we are embracing youngerlearners, who are, for us,
non-traditional, at the sametime that we're continuing to
think about how to serve fourgenerations of learners.
At any given time, everybodyhas different expectations and
needs.
So the space that we've reallyleaned into post-pandemic is in
(05:44):
the sphere of holistic studentsupports for diverse students,
regardless, really, of wherethey live or where they come
from, but specifically tailoredto what they're telling us their
needs are.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
You mentioned the growth in online enrollments,
particularly post-pandemic, thatyour university has experienced
, and, given the huge growth inonline learning across the
country and enormous amount ofinnovation that has taken place
recently with regard to the useof technology to support
students, how is Empire Stateinnovating today to keep up with
(06:21):
those changes?
You mentioned the fourthgeneration of learners.
They're all, as you said, indifferent places, in different
spaces and they learndifferently.
How are you thinking aboutinnovation to better serve those
learners going forward?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
One thing I love about Empire that is different
from anywhere else I've had theprivilege of working in my
career is that innovation andflexibility, and therefore
iteration, are built into ourDNA.
So I have such great regard formy colleagues at Empire, for
(06:57):
people who came before us,because we come to Empire, those
of us who are relatively newand are embraced by an ethos
that really values every studentand values the opportunity to
learn from our students aboutwhat is needed, how we build out
(07:21):
universal design for learningin our master course shell, the
ways in which we experiment withinteraction that is both
synchronous and asynchronous.
90% of our courses areasynchronous, in spite of the
fact that students tell us overand over again they would like
more synchronous opportunitiesfor interaction and for
(07:43):
coursework.
The reality is these are busypeople.
They're caretakers, they work.
Our students have obligations,again, regardless of what their
age is and regardless of howmany credits they had when they
came to us.
They all have complex lives.
So, as we move increasinglyinto the asynchronous space
(08:03):
because that's what studentstell us more responsive to our
students and helping us learnhow to take some of those
(08:27):
low-level tasks off of ourfaculty and staff's plates so we
can focus on more meaningfulinteraction with our students.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's great to hear and I know that's a conversation
happening across the country.
Now you there in New York.
You serve a wide demographic oflearners.
They all have differentchallenges depending on where
they're at in the state, wherethey're at the country operate.
Are there any things that areunique to your situation there
(09:11):
in New York with your learners,or do you find more commonality
than uniqueness?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Thank you for that question.
I think a lot about what itmeant to have the opportunity to
work for 16 years in theCalifornia State University
system.
I worked at big, urban-servingpublic universities At Long
Beach State.
I was at San Jose State.
I moved to Sonoma, which was asuburban, ex-urban, smaller
(09:41):
institution with a differentstudent demographic really.
But the overarching experiencethat I had in California was
wrapped around a very clearvalue system that I carry with
me to this day, which reallyhinges on Access to quality.
(10:02):
Higher education should be aright for all and it remains a
privilege because of all thebarriers that we place on people
from all backgrounds, and wereally need to be continuing to
find ways to break down thosebarriers and serve more people.
So I would say that in New Yorkand California we carry that
(10:25):
ethos with us and that being anempire now at Empire State
University, where we serve16,000 students and we're
growing.
We grew 12% last year and wehave the goal of continuing to
grow to 20,000 by 2028.
Grow to 20,000 by 2028, we'regrowing in service to a
(10:50):
population that continues to beleft behind by almost all
sectors.
Within public higher educationand within the privates as well,
we serve students who have many, many credits from many
different institutions over manyyears, or students who come to
us with credits that they tookas dual or concurrent enrollment
in high school or just afterhigh school, they enrolled in
community college.
(11:11):
Unlike most institutions, wevalue our students' experience.
We value it to the extent thatwe give and have for decades
credit for prior learning, socredit for life experience.
For decades credit for priorlearning, so credit for life
experience, as well as up to 93credits of transfer from other
(11:31):
institutions.
So that is an ethos ofinclusivity the likes of which I
had never seen before I came toEmpire State University and I
really think it's a model for usto look closely at and consider
, because we actually embracewhat everybody knows is the gold
standard, which is fulltransferability.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That's absolutely right, and you mentioned
something that I want to focuson just for a minute.
This whole issue of credit forprior learning is a big topic
across the country Communitycolleges and four-year public
universities.
Ace weighs in on this issue.
(12:13):
So many of our learners areworking learners, whether they
come from the military intohigher education or come from
working environments where weknow that they are learning.
We know that they're gainingskills, and we in higher
education have really had atough time.
I'd say we've failed mostlearners when it comes to
transferring that experience toskills.
How has Empire really honed inon that and built a model that
(12:36):
really seems to be working forlearners when it comes to credit
for prior learning?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, credit for prior learning, as your preface
there to your question indicates, is a very complex beast.
It requires that an institutionstop what it's doing, because
most institutions have built outcurricula that are very tightly
constructed, well-constructedindeed, but do not allow for or
(13:04):
account for students as wholepersons coming to us with prior
life experience and, frankly, donot take into account or want
to take into account the creditsthat they have rightfully
earned and worked hard to earnat other institutions.
So I think that if I had onething to say about how to build
(13:26):
a university from scratch, if wewere all able to hit a button
and do a reset, the reset wouldrequire that we assume that our
students will have a diversityof experiences, a diversity of
credits already booked, let'ssay, from other institutions,
and that our starting pointshould be to ask how do we serve
(13:50):
each of those students withintegrity at our institution?
And that is not the ethos thatwe bring to the table,
especially for your institutions.
We bring to the table an ethosthat is very much under pressure
financially, absolutely Alsovery much under pressure around.
Our curricula are set and theyare fixed and we need people to
(14:13):
come through our curricula to besure that they are going to
achieve the learning outcomesthat we have designated
ourselves.
So we have an individuality ofspirit.
I would say in higher educationat each of our institutions
that in the aggregate, does adisservice to and frankly, as
you say, fails, a broaderstudent population.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I hope many of our listeners who work at the more
traditional public and privatefor universities just listen to
that answer, because this isabsolutely what we need to do
different in higher education.
In my view, this is why there'sfrustration with higher
education as we know it todaythis failure to meet learners
where they're at.
So appreciate the work thatyou're doing there.
(14:57):
Now let me ask you a questionabout how you balance the more
traditional viewpoints with someof the more innovative
viewpoints that you just talkedabout.
You've been in higher educationfor some time.
You've been in various rolesNow as president of Empire State
University.
(15:18):
How do you think aboutbalancing tradition and
innovation and how they're inconflict sometimes?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
The conflict and the tension that we feel in higher
ed around tradition andinnovation, I think is also at
the core of the problem that youwere referring to in the last
question and answer,fundamentally, the belief system
that we brought to the tablewhen we built out American
(15:50):
public higher education andprivate for that matter the
belief system that we brought tothe table when we built out
American higher education is onesteeped in tradition, and it is
steeped in a tradition that iselitist and narrow and served a
very, very small swath of theexclusively male population in
(16:15):
this country.
And to the extent that we clingto tradition for tradition's
sake, we are clinging to anelitist and sexist and racist
and truly just exclusionary viewof what higher education
(16:35):
actually should be or could betoday.
So I feel very strongly that, asI am at an institution, leading
an institution that is verymuch focused on flexibility,
innovation and learning from ourlearners, that we are
well-positioned to empire, toquestion everything that we do,
(17:00):
and I say that and I also wantto say that we have, like
everyone else, a lot of tensionaround what tradition should let
go, what we should reshape andwhat we should create anew in
(17:30):
service to the students we servetoday.
This is very hard work, and weare thoughtful and highly
educated humans those of us whowork in higher ed.
So it takes time, and I feelthe empire definitely has the
belief that that we can and mustdo better year over year, and
(17:51):
that that does require that wemake changes according to, again
, what our students are tellingus they need, as opposed to what
we think we need as facultystaffs and leadership at the
institution.
And, like everyone else, we arein a complex human organization
and you'll ask me that questionand I guarantee you that all of
(18:15):
our other 1,399 employees willhave a slightly different answer
.
And that's the beauty of theeducational promise, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
No, that's right, and I think the more questions are
raised, the kind of questionsthat you're raising, the more
that we reflect on who we are aseducators, as institutions, and
remember to put the center atthe center the learner I think
the more responsive we will begoing forward.
(18:43):
So I appreciate that viewpoint.
Now, that's clearly a challengeof how we continue to reshape,
reimagine the way we think aboutpublic higher education, but
there's also lots of otherchallenges that confront higher
education leaders today.
This is a very treacherous timefor higher education leaders.
(19:04):
This is a very challenging time, particularly post-pandemic and
all the challenges that low andmoderate income learners face.
What are some of the greatestchallenges that you're facing as
a leader and what advice wouldyou have for up-and-coming
leaders who want to become apresident of a regional public
(19:25):
four-year university right now?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Well, I'll start with the end Eloy and say that the
past six months, on top of theprior four years, have presented
leadership challenges the likesof which nobody anticipated.
People who are doing their best, with their teams, in
(19:55):
consultation with faculty andstaff and students across the
nation, to really put their bestfoot forward.
So I want to acknowledge thatthe work that has been done and
the challenges that have beenfaced and will continue to be
faced, I think, into the fall atresidential campuses are
crushing and challenging.
And if there's anybody who'sthinking about becoming a
president power to you.
I will give you my cell phonenumber so you can call a
(20:19):
lifeline, as it were, if youphone a friend, if you need that
, because it is tough work outthere.
And I want to acknowledge thatfirst, because, when I shift to
my answer for my job at thisincredible institution, at this
incredible time, empire StateUniversity's biggest challenge
(20:41):
is how to grow with integrity,and we really spend most of our
time, I would say, in ourcabinet meetings and at the
leadership level trying to helpeach other, be responsive and be
proactive with regard to whatis needed to ensure that we're
(21:02):
supporting our faculty and staffto the extent feasible and
possible today and into thefuture so we can continue to
grow and serve our students well.
So this is a relatively uncommonchallenge, I would say, in
today's environment, and I willreiterate that it is a very
(21:22):
important challenge for us torise to because when Empire
State University and otherinstitutions out there like us
grow, we are growing in serviceto the student population you're
referencing.
We are growing in service topeople who feel that higher
education has failed them,because we have.
We are growing in service topeople in the military, whom you
(21:48):
referenced, and veterans whoare looking for a flexible way
for them to use their GI Billand to continue in their journey
once they leave the military.
We are growing in service tostudents who, time after time,
their credits were not takenfrom other institutions and they
(22:09):
could not piece together adegree even though they have, in
some cases, dozens of creditsthat they bring forward.
So I feel a sense of urgency andreally a sense of deep
commitment to growing theinstitution well, in service to
those students who deserve theirchance to dream and complete
(22:32):
their dream of achieving theircollege degree.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So we talked a lot about the challenges and you
very succinctly put forth someof the challenges that you face
and other leaders face.
And I think in part of youranswer you mention and you talk
about the opportunity withinthat challenge the opportunity
to really shine a light on whatlearners need today and to
(23:01):
reimagine the institution tobetter serve those learners.
But many public and privateinstitutions across the country
are struggling with enrollmentdecline.
They're struggling with thechallenge of an erosion in
confidence in the value thatthose institutions deliver to
(23:22):
their learners.
How have you and your team beenthinking about positioning
Empire State and clearly yourenrollment is growing, so you're
doing something right.
How are you and your teampositioning Empire State to deal
with some of those pressuresand to actually leverage the
demand from working learners toaccess a great post-secondary
(23:45):
experience?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I have so many simultaneous thoughts about this
question.
I'm going to say one that Inever would have said, even 10
years ago.
I came up through urbancomprehensive institutions that
were very large, pushing onbetween 30 and 40,000 students
in any given time, and we didn'tgive a lot of thought, I would
(24:11):
say, at those institutions tobrand identity.
I do think that the regionalpublic comprehensives in
particular, but also, I will say, many of the privates, and, as
a side note, I will note thatsince I moved to New York State
on July 1 of 2022, since I movedto New York State on July 1 of
(24:32):
2022, 15 schools have closed inthe state One size.
So I would say, number one,brand identity and brand clarity
is critically important.
You must have a brand identitythat is clear for students to
even know who you are and whatyou stand for, and this is very
(25:02):
hard when you say comprehensiveand brand identity, like those
two things together make it verydifficult to arrive at clarity
about the brand.
But to me, saying that you needbrand clarity is actually a way
to speak to you.
Really.
We really need, at ourinstitutions, to know what we're
good at and we need to have thecourage to leave behind the
things that either are notmission-centric and or we
(25:25):
haven't been able to drive up tothe level of quality that we
know our other programs are at.
So that's one piece of myanswer.
We landed on SUNY's leadingonline university for our
branding when we knew, a yearafter the pandemic, that
students were not wanting tocome to Empire anymore in person
(25:47):
.
We kept throwing up in personall over the state, throwing up
opportunities, confusing ourstudents, spending a lot of time
, then calling people to say,hey, your class meets tomorrow
in Buffalo, and they said whatdo you mean?
I thought you were online.
So I give that as an example ofour own learning and as we have
refined our brand identity, wealso have been refining how it
(26:13):
is that we then approach thecreation of a very strong and
holistic student support networkso that our students know that
they can come to us and if theyhave basic needs, if they need
to access a food pantry, theycan do that through us.
We have mental health services24-7.
(26:34):
We have a virtual food pantry.
That also is a portal thatenables us to connect students
to social services wherever theyare, whether they're in the
state or out of the state.
So we have been bringing somecreativity to the thinking
around student success.
That is exciting to me, it'svery energizing and it's helping
(26:56):
us continually refine inservice to what the students
tell us they need.
Those are a couple of my answers.
They may not be satisfying tomany folks out there, because I
think it is really hard to cometo consensus on any given campus
, including ours.
I will say we're 98% online andwe do have people in our
(27:20):
community who still are hopingand hold hope.
Hold that hope out for a daywhen students will return in
person and that ship seems tohave sailed.
Our students are telling usover and over again it has
sailed Again.
None of us is here to passjudgment on our colleagues or
other institutions.
(27:40):
We're all here, I think, tohelp each other be better.
That should be the ethos thatwe bring to our jobs in higher
education, because if we'rebetter, then more people can
have access to the degree thatthey deserve to have access to.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that.
So let me ask you one finalquestion as we begin to wrap up,
and in particular, since youruniversity is charged with
innovating.
It's charged with re-imagininghow you meet learners where
(28:16):
they're at, and this year hasbeen the talk.
All year has been about AI andhow artificial intelligence is
going to change the environmentfor the learner, for the
institution, for how we operate,and so I'm sure you've heard
many of those conversations.
You can't go to a educationconference without somebody
(28:39):
talking about how AI is justgoing to change everything.
How are you and your teammaking sense of artificial
intelligence and what are theways in which you're thinking
about leveraging AI to bettersupport your learners?
Speaker 3 (29:07):
is a little bit of the stages of grief, as it were.
I think that many people werehoping that it was not what it
was all cracked up to be andthat maybe it would go away, and
there was some denial.
I think we are very much as acommunity and higher ed now in
the phase of acceptance and anempire.
We have had various groupsworking over the past I would
say almost year and a half nowlooking at what policies we
(29:30):
might need to change, how weneed to approach our universal
design for learning.
Master course shell, which wecontinuously update based on the
evidence and data that we pullfrom our Brightspace, is our
learning management system.
We work to update our coursesevery year in ways that are very
(29:51):
much informed by the data thatwe pull from Brightspace and
from what students are tellingus and faculty as well.
Aspect of how we intend to moveforward, our fall is going to
be very much informed by AI AIboot camp, lunch and learns
We've already had.
We have several already on thebooks.
(30:13):
We're trying to bring the wholeinstitution along and not
exclusively only train upfaculty so that they can be
well-informed in their teachingand learning, but we really want
teaching, learning andoperations holistically to be
lifted with these tools so thatwe can, as a university, be
(30:37):
well-informed, moving forward.
This is, I will say that, theadvent of generative AI.
Again, none of us could haveimagined a couple of years ago
that we would be where we aretoday, but it is challenging the
foundations of how we all weretrained in teaching and I think
(30:59):
it's also challenging thefoundations of what our learners
expect of themselves and oftheir university.
So I think it's an excitingtime.
It is a little bit scary,certainly, but I know already
that the ways in which we haveembedded AI in our operations
have helped us really advanceand help hundreds of students,
(31:22):
if not thousands, by now.
With the FAFSA fiasco, we cameout on the other side.
We are coming out on the otherside of the disastrous FAFSA
rollout stronger than we weregoing in last year, because we
leaned into AI as a way tosupport our staff, to be able to
help our students and ourprospective students know what
(31:46):
the options were, and comethrough AI.
So we have already found somereally exciting ways to be in
service to students that wecouldn't have imagined a couple
of years ago.
So I just love that abouteducation.
I love that we have open heartsfor learning in service to our
students, and at Empire we areworking hard to be sure that
(32:08):
none of our own people are leftbehind, so that we all have the
skills and at least the baselineunderstanding of what's
possible as we move forwardaround generative AI.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Well, on that very positive note, President
Volendorf, I really appreciateyou being on the RAND podcast.
I think all of us, particularlyin the state of New York and
throughout the country, arefortunate to have you, your
staff and your faculty workingto improve post-secondary
(32:40):
education for the learners thatwe all care about, and that is
the majority of learnersthroughout this country.
So thank you for the workyou're doing and, again, thanks
for being on the RENT podcast.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Thank you, eloy, for the opportunity, and I just want
to briefly say that I owe you apersonal thanks because when I
first started in California in2005, you were, of course, in
Long Beach leading the chargewith the Long Beach Promise and
Long Beach State and the schooldistrict and the community
college that you were leadingprovided a model for the nation.
(33:14):
That really was a model for how, if we collaborate and focus on
the students and focus on thefact that every student deserves
the right to dream their way toa college education, you led
the way for me to think about myown future in higher education
and my own future in highereducation leadership.
(33:35):
So that's a personal thank youto you.
Many years later, you probablydon't even know that that was
the case, but for me it was aninstrumental, it was an
important part of my life and ofmy career.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Well, thanks for that , and obviously it's because of
people like you that the LongBeach College Promise is what it
is and continues today.
So again, thank you, and thankyou for mentioning that I know
your former boss, king Alexander, is also a key architect in
that, as well as ChrisSteinhauser from Ambit Unified.
As a matter of fact, I may havethem both on this podcast one
(34:11):
of these days to reminisce aboutthose days.
All right.
Well, thanks everybody forlistening to my conversation
with Dr Lisa Volendorf,president of Empire State
University.
If you enjoyed this episode,hit the subscribe button,
Continue to follow us on thisYouTube channel or on your
favorite podcast platform, andwe will be back to you shortly
(34:32):
with another great interview.
Thanks for joining us,everybody.
Thank you.
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