October 28, 2025 • 28 mins
Americans still believe a college education opens doors, but patience is running out for a system that too often feels overpriced, inflexible, and out of touch. We sit down with New America’s Sophie Nguyen to unpack the Varying Degrees 2025 survey and what the data really says about confidence, cost, and the changing needs of working learners. The headline: value and frustration now live side by side.
We dig into where Americans agree across party lines—purpose, value, and the importance of job training—while also highlighting what people expect beyond employment: critical thinking, communication, and civic readiness. Sophie explains how opinion has stayed surprisingly stable over nine years, even as support dips slightly on questions about return on investment. We connect the dots to affordability, student debt, and the programs that fail to deliver promised outcomes, then explore clear moves leaders can make to rebuild trust.
From UMGC and WGU to ASU and SNHU, we point to models delivering flexibility at scale: online-first design, competency-based pathways, credit for prior learning, and embedded student support. We talk about why the media spotlight on elite campuses distorts public perception and why local open-access institutions deserve a louder voice. With AI reshaping work and adults needing to upskill multiple times, states that act now on flexible, stackable, and transparent pathways will lead the talent race.
Ready to rethink what college looks like for working adults—and how we tell that story with evidence, not hype? Tap play, then share your take. Subscribe, leave a review, and pass this along to someone who cares about making higher education work better for more learners.
https://www.newamerica.org/education-policy/reports/varying-degrees-2025-americans-find-common-ground-in-higher-education/
NewAmerica.org
Eloy@4leggedmedia.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
Hi, this is Eloy T.
Zoakley and welcome back to theRant Podcast, the podcast where
we pull back the curtain andbreak down the people, the
policies, and the politics ofour higher education system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with Sophie Nguyen.
Sophie is a senior policymanager at New America and she
(00:32):
heads the public opinionportfolio for the organization.
Sophie led the surveying ofAmericans and how they're
feeling about higher education.
And the title of the survey iscalled Varying Degrees, 2025.
The latest survey is availableon their website at
newamerica.org.
(00:53):
I'll sit down with Sophie andtalk to her about what are the
themes that she sees coming outof the 2025 survey, how they
compare to previous surveys, andher thoughts about why Americans
are feeling a level offrustration with higher
education today.
The Varying Degrees 2025 surveyfalls in line with many surveys
(01:15):
that I've seen recently.
As a matter of fact, myorganization, College Futures,
recently partnered with Galluphere in California to survey
working age adults.
And much of the same issues thatwe saw come up in the Varying
Degrees Survey, we see coming upin the Gallup survey here in
California, as well as Gallupsurveys from across the country.
(01:38):
Americans are feeling a sense offrustration.
At the same time, they're stilltelling us that they believe
that a post-secondary pathway, aquality post-secondary pathway,
is still a ticket to theAmerican dream or here in
California to the Californiadream.
(02:00):
So what's the disconnect?
People still feel that highereducation provides value,
particularly for themselves, fortheir children, for their
communities.
But at the same time, they'reexpressing deep frustration with
the way higher education isserving them these days.
With the cost of highereducation.
(02:20):
Over and over again, we see costcoming up as one of the greatest
sources of frustration, both interms of the upfront cost and
the amount of debt that learnershave to take on.
And it's also one of thegreatest barriers to entry and
one of the greatest reasons thatlearners stop out of their
(02:40):
college experience.
Another frustration that weheard come up here in
California, as well as you'llsee across the nation, is the
frustration with the way highereducation serves working age
adults.
Higher education is not designedfor them.
I think back on my ownexperience, coming out of the
United States Army back in 1988.
(03:03):
Having a daughter, having toraise a family, having to find
work, not having any of theskills that I obtained in the
United States Army transferredto any sort of education.
I worked for several yearsbefore I entered college.
And fortunately I found acommunity college.
I then transferred to theUniversity of California,
Irvine.
But you know what?
Much of the way that we offerhigher education back in the
(03:27):
early 90s when I went tocollege, especially for working
age adults, works pretty muchthe same way today.
Not much has changed.
Fortunately, today there areother options.
I recently interviewed GregFowler from UMGC.
UMGC is doing a great job ofmeeting working learners where
they're at.
I wish I would have had anoption like that back in 1988.
(03:51):
And we also have examples likeWestern Governors University,
ASU, Southern New Hampshire.
But by and large, traditionalhigher education has not changed
a bit.
And we're living in a point intime where if institutions do
not change, they're going tobecome less and less relevant.
(04:11):
Because access to information,access to skill acquisition,
access to learning is becomingmuch easier to get to.
And so back to the example ofCalifornia, College Futures,
we've been looking deeply atwhat's going on with working
learners.
As a matter of fact, we launcheda$4 million funding opportunity
(04:35):
to be able to build a new set ofpartners and look at a new set
of ideas on how California canbetter serve working learners,
how it can reimagine its highereducation system to design with
the working learner in mind.
This is no longer an issue ofit'd be nice to have.
This is an issue of must-havefor states like California and
(04:57):
for all 50 states.
We're at a point in time wherethe impacts of the workforce,
the impacts of AI on theworkforce, the new economy
that's being created are goingto put learners further and
further behind if they don'thave access to quality
post-secondary pathways.
(05:17):
So this isn't just an issue forthose individuals who are at the
lowest rungs of wages or whohave had no access to higher
education, some access to highereducation, but no credential.
Or even those who have hadaccess to higher education and
have a credential.
Every worker, every adultlearner is going to need to be
(05:39):
able to upskill and reskillmultiple times during their
career.
If a state like California wantsto continue to be competitive,
wants to continue to be thefourth largest economy, wants to
be an inclusive economy for allCalifornians, then it must take
this moment to reimagine itspost-secondary systems with
(06:01):
urgency.
So I hope that in myconversation with Sophie, you'll
pick up on some of thefrustrations Americans are
telling us.
And I hope that we as a highereducation community finally take
this serious.
Look at the examples of theUMGCs and WGUs and rethink how
(06:22):
we organize ourselves and designfor the working learner.
That doesn't mean that alleducation needs to be online or
competency based.
We have to create multiplepathways.
But these are no longer theoutliers.
These are no longer you know theweirdos in the class.
These are examples of qualityhigher education happening at
(06:44):
scale.
And so institutions like we havehere in California, whether it
be the California CommunityColleges, the California State
University System, and even theUniversity of California need to
begin to reimagine how theydeliver their education and do
it with urgency.
We don't have much more time,folks.
(07:05):
Americans continue to lose faithin the higher education system,
particularly the traditionalhigher education system.
And we must do more to meetlearners where they're at.
We need to create moreopportunities in more places for
more learners.
So with that backdrop, pleaseenjoy my conversation with
Sophie Nguyen from New America.
(07:28):
Sophie, welcome to the RantPodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
It's great to have you, and thank you for taking
the time out of your busyschedule to be with us and
specifically to talk about thelatest survey of Americans and
how they're feeling about highereducation.
It's called Varying Degrees, andwe'll jump into it.
I'm anxious to find out whatyou're seeing in the data and
what you're seeing in thesurveys.
(07:53):
But before we get into thesurvey, tell us about your work
at New America and what yourhigher education journey was all
about.
SPEAKER_01 (08:04):
Thanks for that question.
I'm the senior policy managerwith the Higet team at New
America.
So currently I uh manage ourpublic opinion portfolio and
also work on a variety of issuesrelated to uh college
completions and student support.
I've been at New America foractually eight years now.
(08:27):
This is when I started rightafter college.
So it's technically the only wayI have work uh in my
professional career.
I like what kind of like avariety of issues since I've
been here, and now like publicopinion is is something that
I've uh been dedicating a lot ofmy time with.
(08:47):
And how did it start like myhigh-ed journey?
I would say uh let's start withcollege, actually.
I think um, like when we wereasked, like, what made me decide
to to do high-ed policy?
The thing like my first answerto them would be because I love
college.
I went to a very small privateliberal art college in
(09:09):
Massachusetts, uh, MalhoyamCollege.
I think it was a likelife-changing experience for me,
like being in a space with uh alot of like like-minded women,
but also really received a lotof support from professors and
also staff at school, and likeat the time when I was still
(09:29):
trying to find figure out what Iwant to do, what do I want to
become?
It was just uh like I would saya transformative experience for
me.
And that's when I came acrossNew America was hiring an intern
for the higher ed policy then.
And that's when I came acrossthat opportunity, yeah, and
apply.
And long story short, I got theinternship and I'm still here
(09:53):
after eight years.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
Well, let's talk about higher ed.
So, and specifically, let's talkabout the varying degree survey.
So, New America does the surveyabout every year.
It'd been doing it for sometime.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
And you're specifically looking at how
Americans feel about highereducation.
And I think this is top of mindfor many of us in higher
education these days.
There's been a lot ofchallenges, a lot of political
attacks, a lot of uh a lack oftrust in institutions, an
(10:28):
erosion of confidence in thevalue of higher education.
I know in my organization,College Futures, we recently did
a survey along with Gallup andfind people still see value in
higher education but are but arequestioning how they receive it,
who receives it, who doesn't,and the cost of higher
(10:50):
education.
So let's jump into the mostrecent survey, and and I'll
start by reading the the openinguh couple of sentences just to
sort of lay the foundation here.
It says higher education isunder intensifying political and
public scrutiny.
I certainly agree with that.
Facing challenges like federalfunding freezes and overhauls to
(11:15):
student aid programs, yet,despite deep divides in
policymaking, New America'sVarying Degrees 2025 survey
reveals that Americans remainunited in their beliefs about
the purpose and the value ofhigher education.
So let's jump into that.
Let's start just by telling ourlisteners about the survey, who
(11:39):
you surveyed, and how longyou've been doing this.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
So, varying degrees, we survey of Americans'
perspective higher educations.
We have conducted the surveyssince 2017.
Um, so it's been this year, it'sthe ninth year that we have
conducted the surveys.
So we have nine years of data onhow Americans feel about higher
(12:03):
educations.
The issues that we mostly focuson in the surveys are about
value, like whether people thinkcollege is worth it, how they
feel about the way highereducation is going.
And then we ask questions aboutfunding, whether it should be
the students or it should comefrom like the government,
(12:25):
whether it's the federal onstate government.
And we also ask questions aboutaccountability, like in terms of
like outcomes that studentsshould expect to get from
college, and also what to dowhen, like how to hold, like
whether people think collegesshould be held accountable if
like their programs doesn't leadstudents to the outcome that
(12:49):
they promised.
Sometimes we add new questionsjust to capture the moment, like
opinion of the moment, like onthe on like the huge topic of
the moment.
But yeah, like there's a set ofquestions that we ask year over
years.
And I would say that um likecoming back to the the opening
(13:11):
line that you just mentionedabout like that you read from
the survey about the purpose andthe value of higher ed, like
what you said, there has been alot of challenges.
This year has been, I would say,since I started working in this
way and learning all sorts ofthings about higher ed, since
2017, no year has been a, Iwould say maybe a normal year.
(13:35):
Uh like colleges went throughCOVID, like just like five years
ago.
A lot of, I would say,fundamental changes in the way
that people learn and receive uhsupport from colleges into this
moment where we are now, thewhole sector is feeling the
impact of it.
Like the thing that we find inthe survey is that yes, that is
(14:01):
there has been a lot of likewe're living in a moment there
when it's still like there'shardly anything that Democrat
and Republicans can agree with.
What we find in our survey isthat, yeah, like on a lot of
issues, like there's still likegaps between Republicans and
Democrats, but it doesn't meanthat they disagree on
(14:23):
everything.
There's like questions about thepurpose of college, what they
should know for students andfamily and society.
Like we find a lot of alignment.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
Let's talk about what you found.
Americans are saying a lot ofdifferent things about higher
education these days in thevarious surveys that I've seen.
So what did you pick up in thesurvey?
What are some of the commonthemes that uh people are saying
about the purpose of highereducation and the value?
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
First thing first, I would say we find the surveys
that a majority of Americansstill believe that higher ed is
worth the investment, and thatthey would still want the
children to have some sort ofeducation after high school,
whether it's a certificateprogram, an associate degree, or
(15:15):
a bachelor degree.
It doesn't have to be, it justdoesn't have to be a courier
degree.
And and and when it comes toquestions about like the purpose
and the missions of highereducation, like we have like
more than 90% of all Americansbelieve that, yeah, like job
training is extremely important.
And like and like expect thatcolleges and universities equip
(15:41):
students with the skill and theknowledge that they need to
prepare them for the jobsthey're gonna take after
college.
But job training is not the onlyimportant goal of college.
Like when we ask about likewhether whether people think
it's important that collegeprepare students to be a
critical thinker or like aninformed season or prepare
(16:04):
students with like other skillsets such as communication and
writing, it's very important forcollege to equip students with
skill and knowledge that theyneed to be successful in their
job at the college.
But at the same time, we alsosee that job training is not the
(16:26):
only outcome that Americans orthe public would expect from
college.
When we ask uh about likewhether it's important for
college to prepare students tobecome informed citizens or
critical thinkers, we have likea range of like around like 80
to 90 to more than 90 percent ofAmericans believe that these are
(16:49):
like important skills that thatcollege should equip students
with.
Yeah, and and we see strongalignment between Democrat and
Republicans.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
So in your survey, tell us about who you surveyed.
How many people did you survey?
And uh it sounds like you brokeit down, you were able to get
information on whether they'reDemocrats, uh Republicans, were
there also some independents inthere as well.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
That's right.
Um, so we surveys Americanadults, so those 18 years in a
bowl.
The sample size for the 2025survey is around 1600, a little
bit more than 1600.
And our samples can be brokendown by certain different
(17:35):
demographics, not just politicalaffiliations, but also like race
and ethnicity, income level,educational attainment, or like
even like student status orveteran status, look at the
difference among otherdemographic groups, not just
political affiliation.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
Great.
And so as our listeners are arelistening or watching this
interview and they want to go uhpull down the report, I imagine
they can just go tonewamerica.org and click on the
varying degrees 2025 survey,correct?
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Okay.
Great.
So uh you've talked about thefact that you've done this
report for several years.
Are there any major shifts inopinion that you saw from the
previous years to this year, orhas it been a sort of a steady
state of opinion going forward?
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
First of all, I would say opinion, public
opinion usually don't change alot.
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Uh, yeah.
Like new, like before anyone whodoes this work new.
Actually, yeah, people don'tchange their mind that often.
And and that's something we findwith our uh survey as well.
Even like I would say um duringthe past nine years that we
conducted the survey, uh, therehas been a lot of fundamental
(18:59):
shifts in higher education.
Like I expect I thought wouldmaybe like significant change
people respond, but actually,when we look at respond from
years over years, especially forquestions that we have asked,
like for example, since 2017 or2019, um, like from like the
(19:21):
very beginning of our survey,the response are pretty stable,
especially like on thosequestions that we to provide
students with the return oninvestment, or whether people
think that college is fired theway it is.
There's some fluctuations yearover year, but yeah, like over
like across the board we seenumbers still pretty much uh
(19:42):
remain stable.
Having said that, and thequestions around um like whether
people think that college is umstill worth the return on
investment, for example, wenoticed a slight declining
trend.
Like, yeah, from like 2019 whenwe asked that question for the
(20:04):
first time to now, now it'sstill like like around 70% of
people still think that yes,college is worth the return on
investment.
But compared to like when weasked the question for the first
time in 2017, it was like 78%.
Like now it's was like in 2025,it's like 74%.
(20:28):
Yes, people still, a majoritystill believe in the value of
college, but there's obviouslysome frustration there.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
I agree that it's it's a trend that we should be
paying attention to because it'sa trend that shows up in many
surveys of Americans.
Recent uh work that we did withGallup, or recent work that uh
Gallup did nationally showedsimilar frustration.
Surveys that I have looked atover the years tend to center
(20:59):
around frustration about costand frustration that their
degree or credential hasn't ledto the kind of economic outcome
that they were anticipating.
Do you find similar themes inyour survey?
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Yeah.
I would say in our survey, costsstill come up as some of the top
concerns as to why people arelike not feeling happy about
high ed.
Like affordability is definitelya key issue.
Right.
People like costs are still likepeople believe that to be like
(21:37):
the number one reason whysomeone stopped out or like like
no decide not to go to collegewhen you conduct stuff, but it's
just honestly actually veryreassuring to see like other
surveys show the same like someresults.
So that oh you well, yeah, likeobviously we're confident with a
methodology, but also like it'sit's actually helpful to see
(22:01):
other surveys actually confirmwhat you find as well.
It it just like come back to thepoint that none of these issues
is new and has been around for along time, and for it to show up
over and over again in multiplesurveys across the year, and for
not a lot of changes uh tohappen to counter that directly,
(22:27):
I think it's just add to anotherreason as like that, explain
why.
Um confidence for how you add isjust being low right now.
And yeah, it's just add to thefrustration, like to just public
to public frustrations.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Right.
No, I agree, and I and I'm gladthat you made the point that
this is not something new.
This is certainly something I'vebeen seeing uh in the water for
almost the last decade.
More and more frustration, moreand more people who are not
served well by higher education,the cost of higher education
continuing to go up, the cost offinancing, the amount of debt
(23:04):
that you have to take on.
So all these things have sort ofled to this moment, and you
know, you all continue tocapture this sediment in the
American psyche.
Now, let me ask you one lastquestion as we begin to wrap up.
Given that you're sitting therereceiving this public opinion
and your background now inhigher education policy and
(23:29):
spending time at New Meritthinking about these challenges
based on what you've seen in inthe survey.
What advice would Sophie havefor policymakers or for higher
education leaders uh who want tocontinue to improve how the
public thinks about highereducation?
What would be your advice tothem?
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
I mean, first of all, there gotta be some
definitely uh significant changeto directly answers, like
address these concerns aboutcosts, about job outcomes, about
like support, like issues aroundstudent support to help students
get to the finish line.
(24:11):
They definitely need to haveaction taken from like not just
from the policy side, but alsofrom the institution side.
At the same time, I would saypolicy change.
As we know, for policy will taketime to happen.
The current policy environmentthat we're in today, there will
be a lot of challenges to seeactions that would directly
(24:35):
address like affordability umhappen.
But I I I think there's alsoother like actions that
institutions can take that arelikely to have more immediate
outcome.
They need to be able to tell abetter story about themselves,
(24:56):
why they matters, uh, whatthey're doing.
I think there has been a hugedisconnections between college
and the public.
Part of the reason is also,like, yeah, like we have 6,000
institutions in the US, a lot ofthem are open access, but a very
(25:18):
small subset of them that arevery exclusive and high-ranking
themselves are thoseinstitutions that the public
mostly hear about in the media.
Right.
There's a New York Times, peacecome out, or Worst Journal
Peace.
It's not about the communitycollege that is in their town,
(25:39):
but it's always about the howabout the Columbia or like some
purple, some like flagship, likeUniversity of Virginia, like
University of I don't know, it'sjust like a state flagship.
And and even though thoseinstitutions don't represent how
(26:00):
you're at, it feels like theydo.
And that's a huge problembecause like a lot of the values
and the missions that thoseinstitutions represent doesn't
uh like portray themselves,doesn't connect with everyday
Americans.
When like when you when everyonejust wants to find an option
(26:22):
that's accessible to them, andwhat they see is like just the
elite colleges with like very,very high team essence fee being
featured over and over again.
It's not just about like jobtraining, right?
It's also about like researchand development and innovations
and a lot of the things thatthey do can benefit the society
(26:44):
at large.
And and they need to be able tobuild a stronger message to
create a more factful narrativefor higher education that yeah,
that make them feel relevant tojust day-to-day American.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Well, I think that's great advice, Sophie, and I
really appreciate you taking thetime to join us here on the RAM
podcast to talk about um the NewAmerica Varying Degrees 2025
survey.
Thanks for your work and thanksfor being on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Thanks so much for having me.
It has been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Well, it's been a pleasure having you, Sophie.
So thanks for joining us,everybody.
I hope you've enjoyed myconversation with Sophie Nguyen,
the senior policy manager at NewAmerica.
She was talking about the latestVarying Degrees survey that New
America released, the VaryingDegrees 2025 survey.
(27:41):
You can access the survey andthe data at the New America
website at newamerica.org.
I'll put a link to the report inthe notes section of this
podcast.
If you're watching us onYouTube, hit subscribe.
Continue to follow us, and ifyou're listening to us on audio,
continue to follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform.
(28:02):
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we will see you
all again soon.
Hi, this is Eloy T.
Zoakley and welcome back to theRant Podcast, the podcast where
we pull back the curtain andbreak down the people, the
policies, and the politics ofour higher education system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with Sophie Nguyen.
Sophie is a senior policymanager at New America and she
(00:32):
heads the public opinionportfolio for the organization.
Sophie led the surveying ofAmericans and how they're
feeling about higher education.
And the title of the survey iscalled Varying Degrees, 2025.
The latest survey is availableon their website at
newamerica.org.
(00:53):
I'll sit down with Sophie andtalk to her about what are the
themes that she sees coming outof the 2025 survey, how they
compare to previous surveys, andher thoughts about why Americans
are feeling a level offrustration with higher
education today.
The Varying Degrees 2025 surveyfalls in line with many surveys
(01:15):
that I've seen recently.
As a matter of fact, myorganization, College Futures,
recently partnered with Galluphere in California to survey
working age adults.
And much of the same issues thatwe saw come up in the Varying
Degrees Survey, we see coming upin the Gallup survey here in
California, as well as Gallupsurveys from across the country.
(01:38):
Americans are feeling a sense offrustration.
At the same time, they're stilltelling us that they believe
that a post-secondary pathway, aquality post-secondary pathway,
is still a ticket to theAmerican dream or here in
California to the Californiadream.
(02:00):
So what's the disconnect?
People still feel that highereducation provides value,
particularly for themselves, fortheir children, for their
communities.
But at the same time, they'reexpressing deep frustration with
the way higher education isserving them these days.
With the cost of highereducation.
(02:20):
Over and over again, we see costcoming up as one of the greatest
sources of frustration, both interms of the upfront cost and
the amount of debt that learnershave to take on.
And it's also one of thegreatest barriers to entry and
one of the greatest reasons thatlearners stop out of their
(02:40):
college experience.
Another frustration that weheard come up here in
California, as well as you'llsee across the nation, is the
frustration with the way highereducation serves working age
adults.
Higher education is not designedfor them.
I think back on my ownexperience, coming out of the
United States Army back in 1988.
(03:03):
Having a daughter, having toraise a family, having to find
work, not having any of theskills that I obtained in the
United States Army transferredto any sort of education.
I worked for several yearsbefore I entered college.
And fortunately I found acommunity college.
I then transferred to theUniversity of California,
Irvine.
But you know what?
Much of the way that we offerhigher education back in the
(03:27):
early 90s when I went tocollege, especially for working
age adults, works pretty muchthe same way today.
Not much has changed.
Fortunately, today there areother options.
I recently interviewed GregFowler from UMGC.
UMGC is doing a great job ofmeeting working learners where
they're at.
I wish I would have had anoption like that back in 1988.
(03:51):
And we also have examples likeWestern Governors University,
ASU, Southern New Hampshire.
But by and large, traditionalhigher education has not changed
a bit.
And we're living in a point intime where if institutions do
not change, they're going tobecome less and less relevant.
(04:11):
Because access to information,access to skill acquisition,
access to learning is becomingmuch easier to get to.
And so back to the example ofCalifornia, College Futures,
we've been looking deeply atwhat's going on with working
learners.
As a matter of fact, we launcheda$4 million funding opportunity
(04:35):
to be able to build a new set ofpartners and look at a new set
of ideas on how California canbetter serve working learners,
how it can reimagine its highereducation system to design with
the working learner in mind.
This is no longer an issue ofit'd be nice to have.
This is an issue of must-havefor states like California and
(04:57):
for all 50 states.
We're at a point in time wherethe impacts of the workforce,
the impacts of AI on theworkforce, the new economy
that's being created are goingto put learners further and
further behind if they don'thave access to quality
post-secondary pathways.
(05:17):
So this isn't just an issue forthose individuals who are at the
lowest rungs of wages or whohave had no access to higher
education, some access to highereducation, but no credential.
Or even those who have hadaccess to higher education and
have a credential.
Every worker, every adultlearner is going to need to be
(05:39):
able to upskill and reskillmultiple times during their
career.
If a state like California wantsto continue to be competitive,
wants to continue to be thefourth largest economy, wants to
be an inclusive economy for allCalifornians, then it must take
this moment to reimagine itspost-secondary systems with
(06:01):
urgency.
So I hope that in myconversation with Sophie, you'll
pick up on some of thefrustrations Americans are
telling us.
And I hope that we as a highereducation community finally take
this serious.
Look at the examples of theUMGCs and WGUs and rethink how
(06:22):
we organize ourselves and designfor the working learner.
That doesn't mean that alleducation needs to be online or
competency based.
We have to create multiplepathways.
But these are no longer theoutliers.
These are no longer you know theweirdos in the class.
These are examples of qualityhigher education happening at
(06:44):
scale.
And so institutions like we havehere in California, whether it
be the California CommunityColleges, the California State
University System, and even theUniversity of California need to
begin to reimagine how theydeliver their education and do
it with urgency.
We don't have much more time,folks.
(07:05):
Americans continue to lose faithin the higher education system,
particularly the traditionalhigher education system.
And we must do more to meetlearners where they're at.
We need to create moreopportunities in more places for
more learners.
So with that backdrop, pleaseenjoy my conversation with
Sophie Nguyen from New America.
(07:28):
Sophie, welcome to the RantPodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
It's great to have you, and thank you for taking
the time out of your busyschedule to be with us and
specifically to talk about thelatest survey of Americans and
how they're feeling about highereducation.
It's called Varying Degrees, andwe'll jump into it.
I'm anxious to find out whatyou're seeing in the data and
what you're seeing in thesurveys.
(07:53):
But before we get into thesurvey, tell us about your work
at New America and what yourhigher education journey was all
about.
SPEAKER_01 (08:04):
Thanks for that question.
I'm the senior policy managerwith the Higet team at New
America.
So currently I uh manage ourpublic opinion portfolio and
also work on a variety of issuesrelated to uh college
completions and student support.
I've been at New America foractually eight years now.
(08:27):
This is when I started rightafter college.
So it's technically the only wayI have work uh in my
professional career.
I like what kind of like avariety of issues since I've
been here, and now like publicopinion is is something that
I've uh been dedicating a lot ofmy time with.
(08:47):
And how did it start like myhigh-ed journey?
I would say uh let's start withcollege, actually.
I think um, like when we wereasked, like, what made me decide
to to do high-ed policy?
The thing like my first answerto them would be because I love
college.
I went to a very small privateliberal art college in
(09:09):
Massachusetts, uh, MalhoyamCollege.
I think it was a likelife-changing experience for me,
like being in a space with uh alot of like like-minded women,
but also really received a lotof support from professors and
also staff at school, and likeat the time when I was still
(09:29):
trying to find figure out what Iwant to do, what do I want to
become?
It was just uh like I would saya transformative experience for
me.
And that's when I came acrossNew America was hiring an intern
for the higher ed policy then.
And that's when I came acrossthat opportunity, yeah, and
apply.
And long story short, I got theinternship and I'm still here
(09:53):
after eight years.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
Well, let's talk about higher ed.
So, and specifically, let's talkabout the varying degree survey.
So, New America does the surveyabout every year.
It'd been doing it for sometime.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
And you're specifically looking at how
Americans feel about highereducation.
And I think this is top of mindfor many of us in higher
education these days.
There's been a lot ofchallenges, a lot of political
attacks, a lot of uh a lack oftrust in institutions, an
(10:28):
erosion of confidence in thevalue of higher education.
I know in my organization,College Futures, we recently did
a survey along with Gallup andfind people still see value in
higher education but are but arequestioning how they receive it,
who receives it, who doesn't,and the cost of higher
(10:50):
education.
So let's jump into the mostrecent survey, and and I'll
start by reading the the openinguh couple of sentences just to
sort of lay the foundation here.
It says higher education isunder intensifying political and
public scrutiny.
I certainly agree with that.
Facing challenges like federalfunding freezes and overhauls to
(11:15):
student aid programs, yet,despite deep divides in
policymaking, New America'sVarying Degrees 2025 survey
reveals that Americans remainunited in their beliefs about
the purpose and the value ofhigher education.
So let's jump into that.
Let's start just by telling ourlisteners about the survey, who
(11:39):
you surveyed, and how longyou've been doing this.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
So, varying degrees, we survey of Americans'
perspective higher educations.
We have conducted the surveyssince 2017.
Um, so it's been this year, it'sthe ninth year that we have
conducted the surveys.
So we have nine years of data onhow Americans feel about higher
(12:03):
educations.
The issues that we mostly focuson in the surveys are about
value, like whether people thinkcollege is worth it, how they
feel about the way highereducation is going.
And then we ask questions aboutfunding, whether it should be
the students or it should comefrom like the government,
(12:25):
whether it's the federal onstate government.
And we also ask questions aboutaccountability, like in terms of
like outcomes that studentsshould expect to get from
college, and also what to dowhen, like how to hold, like
whether people think collegesshould be held accountable if
like their programs doesn't leadstudents to the outcome that
(12:49):
they promised.
Sometimes we add new questionsjust to capture the moment, like
opinion of the moment, like onthe on like the huge topic of
the moment.
But yeah, like there's a set ofquestions that we ask year over
years.
And I would say that um likecoming back to the the opening
(13:11):
line that you just mentionedabout like that you read from
the survey about the purpose andthe value of higher ed, like
what you said, there has been alot of challenges.
This year has been, I would say,since I started working in this
way and learning all sorts ofthings about higher ed, since
2017, no year has been a, Iwould say maybe a normal year.
(13:35):
Uh like colleges went throughCOVID, like just like five years
ago.
A lot of, I would say,fundamental changes in the way
that people learn and receive uhsupport from colleges into this
moment where we are now, thewhole sector is feeling the
impact of it.
Like the thing that we find inthe survey is that yes, that is
(14:01):
there has been a lot of likewe're living in a moment there
when it's still like there'shardly anything that Democrat
and Republicans can agree with.
What we find in our survey isthat, yeah, like on a lot of
issues, like there's still likegaps between Republicans and
Democrats, but it doesn't meanthat they disagree on
(14:23):
everything.
There's like questions about thepurpose of college, what they
should know for students andfamily and society.
Like we find a lot of alignment.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
Let's talk about what you found.
Americans are saying a lot ofdifferent things about higher
education these days in thevarious surveys that I've seen.
So what did you pick up in thesurvey?
What are some of the commonthemes that uh people are saying
about the purpose of highereducation and the value?
SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
First thing first, I would say we find the surveys
that a majority of Americansstill believe that higher ed is
worth the investment, and thatthey would still want the
children to have some sort ofeducation after high school,
whether it's a certificateprogram, an associate degree, or
(15:15):
a bachelor degree.
It doesn't have to be, it justdoesn't have to be a courier
degree.
And and and when it comes toquestions about like the purpose
and the missions of highereducation, like we have like
more than 90% of all Americansbelieve that, yeah, like job
training is extremely important.
And like and like expect thatcolleges and universities equip
(15:41):
students with the skill and theknowledge that they need to
prepare them for the jobsthey're gonna take after
college.
But job training is not the onlyimportant goal of college.
Like when we ask about likewhether whether people think
it's important that collegeprepare students to be a
critical thinker or like aninformed season or prepare
(16:04):
students with like other skillsets such as communication and
writing, it's very important forcollege to equip students with
skill and knowledge that theyneed to be successful in their
job at the college.
But at the same time, we alsosee that job training is not the
(16:26):
only outcome that Americans orthe public would expect from
college.
When we ask uh about likewhether it's important for
college to prepare students tobecome informed citizens or
critical thinkers, we have likea range of like around like 80
to 90 to more than 90 percent ofAmericans believe that these are
(16:49):
like important skills that thatcollege should equip students
with.
Yeah, and and we see strongalignment between Democrat and
Republicans.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
So in your survey, tell us about who you surveyed.
How many people did you survey?
And uh it sounds like you brokeit down, you were able to get
information on whether they'reDemocrats, uh Republicans, were
there also some independents inthere as well.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
That's right.
Um, so we surveys Americanadults, so those 18 years in a
bowl.
The sample size for the 2025survey is around 1600, a little
bit more than 1600.
And our samples can be brokendown by certain different
(17:35):
demographics, not just politicalaffiliations, but also like race
and ethnicity, income level,educational attainment, or like
even like student status orveteran status, look at the
difference among otherdemographic groups, not just
political affiliation.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
Great.
And so as our listeners are arelistening or watching this
interview and they want to go uhpull down the report, I imagine
they can just go tonewamerica.org and click on the
varying degrees 2025 survey,correct?
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Okay.
Great.
So uh you've talked about thefact that you've done this
report for several years.
Are there any major shifts inopinion that you saw from the
previous years to this year, orhas it been a sort of a steady
state of opinion going forward?
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
First of all, I would say opinion, public
opinion usually don't change alot.
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Uh, yeah.
Like new, like before anyone whodoes this work new.
Actually, yeah, people don'tchange their mind that often.
And and that's something we findwith our uh survey as well.
Even like I would say um duringthe past nine years that we
conducted the survey, uh, therehas been a lot of fundamental
(18:59):
shifts in higher education.
Like I expect I thought wouldmaybe like significant change
people respond, but actually,when we look at respond from
years over years, especially forquestions that we have asked,
like for example, since 2017 or2019, um, like from like the
(19:21):
very beginning of our survey,the response are pretty stable,
especially like on thosequestions that we to provide
students with the return oninvestment, or whether people
think that college is fired theway it is.
There's some fluctuations yearover year, but yeah, like over
like across the board we seenumbers still pretty much uh
(19:42):
remain stable.
Having said that, and thequestions around um like whether
people think that college is umstill worth the return on
investment, for example, wenoticed a slight declining
trend.
Like, yeah, from like 2019 whenwe asked that question for the
(20:04):
first time to now, now it'sstill like like around 70% of
people still think that yes,college is worth the return on
investment.
But compared to like when weasked the question for the first
time in 2017, it was like 78%.
Like now it's was like in 2025,it's like 74%.
(20:28):
Yes, people still, a majoritystill believe in the value of
college, but there's obviouslysome frustration there.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
I agree that it's it's a trend that we should be
paying attention to because it'sa trend that shows up in many
surveys of Americans.
Recent uh work that we did withGallup, or recent work that uh
Gallup did nationally showedsimilar frustration.
Surveys that I have looked atover the years tend to center
(20:59):
around frustration about costand frustration that their
degree or credential hasn't ledto the kind of economic outcome
that they were anticipating.
Do you find similar themes inyour survey?
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Yeah.
I would say in our survey, costsstill come up as some of the top
concerns as to why people arelike not feeling happy about
high ed.
Like affordability is definitelya key issue.
Right.
People like costs are still likepeople believe that to be like
(21:37):
the number one reason whysomeone stopped out or like like
no decide not to go to collegewhen you conduct stuff, but it's
just honestly actually veryreassuring to see like other
surveys show the same like someresults.
So that oh you well, yeah, likeobviously we're confident with a
methodology, but also like it'sit's actually helpful to see
(22:01):
other surveys actually confirmwhat you find as well.
It it just like come back to thepoint that none of these issues
is new and has been around for along time, and for it to show up
over and over again in multiplesurveys across the year, and for
not a lot of changes uh tohappen to counter that directly,
(22:27):
I think it's just add to anotherreason as like that, explain
why.
Um confidence for how you add isjust being low right now.
And yeah, it's just add to thefrustration, like to just public
to public frustrations.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Right.
No, I agree, and I and I'm gladthat you made the point that
this is not something new.
This is certainly something I'vebeen seeing uh in the water for
almost the last decade.
More and more frustration, moreand more people who are not
served well by higher education,the cost of higher education
continuing to go up, the cost offinancing, the amount of debt
(23:04):
that you have to take on.
So all these things have sort ofled to this moment, and you
know, you all continue tocapture this sediment in the
American psyche.
Now, let me ask you one lastquestion as we begin to wrap up.
Given that you're sitting therereceiving this public opinion
and your background now inhigher education policy and
(23:29):
spending time at New Meritthinking about these challenges
based on what you've seen in inthe survey.
What advice would Sophie havefor policymakers or for higher
education leaders uh who want tocontinue to improve how the
public thinks about highereducation?
What would be your advice tothem?
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
I mean, first of all, there gotta be some
definitely uh significant changeto directly answers, like
address these concerns aboutcosts, about job outcomes, about
like support, like issues aroundstudent support to help students
get to the finish line.
(24:11):
They definitely need to haveaction taken from like not just
from the policy side, but alsofrom the institution side.
At the same time, I would saypolicy change.
As we know, for policy will taketime to happen.
The current policy environmentthat we're in today, there will
be a lot of challenges to seeactions that would directly
(24:35):
address like affordability umhappen.
But I I I think there's alsoother like actions that
institutions can take that arelikely to have more immediate
outcome.
They need to be able to tell abetter story about themselves,
(24:56):
why they matters, uh, whatthey're doing.
I think there has been a hugedisconnections between college
and the public.
Part of the reason is also,like, yeah, like we have 6,000
institutions in the US, a lot ofthem are open access, but a very
(25:18):
small subset of them that arevery exclusive and high-ranking
themselves are thoseinstitutions that the public
mostly hear about in the media.
Right.
There's a New York Times, peacecome out, or Worst Journal
Peace.
It's not about the communitycollege that is in their town,
(25:39):
but it's always about the howabout the Columbia or like some
purple, some like flagship, likeUniversity of Virginia, like
University of I don't know, it'sjust like a state flagship.
And and even though thoseinstitutions don't represent how
(26:00):
you're at, it feels like theydo.
And that's a huge problembecause like a lot of the values
and the missions that thoseinstitutions represent doesn't
uh like portray themselves,doesn't connect with everyday
Americans.
When like when you when everyonejust wants to find an option
(26:22):
that's accessible to them, andwhat they see is like just the
elite colleges with like very,very high team essence fee being
featured over and over again.
It's not just about like jobtraining, right?
It's also about like researchand development and innovations
and a lot of the things thatthey do can benefit the society
(26:44):
at large.
And and they need to be able tobuild a stronger message to
create a more factful narrativefor higher education that yeah,
that make them feel relevant tojust day-to-day American.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Well, I think that's great advice, Sophie, and I
really appreciate you taking thetime to join us here on the RAM
podcast to talk about um the NewAmerica Varying Degrees 2025
survey.
Thanks for your work and thanksfor being on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Thanks so much for having me.
It has been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Well, it's been a pleasure having you, Sophie.
So thanks for joining us,everybody.
I hope you've enjoyed myconversation with Sophie Nguyen,
the senior policy manager at NewAmerica.
She was talking about the latestVarying Degrees survey that New
America released, the VaryingDegrees 2025 survey.
(27:41):
You can access the survey andthe data at the New America
website at newamerica.org.
I'll put a link to the report inthe notes section of this
podcast.
If you're watching us onYouTube, hit subscribe.
Continue to follow us, and ifyou're listening to us on audio,
continue to follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform.
(28:02):
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we will see you
all again soon.
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