January 21, 2025 • 24 mins
This episode delves into the transformative changes in higher education under the Biden Administration, featuring insights from Undersecretary of Education James Kvaal. Key topics include student loan forgiveness achievements, the simplification of FAFSA, and the future of education amidst emerging technologies and political challenges.
• Highlights the significant accomplishments in student loan forgiveness
• Discusses the ongoing modernization of FAFSA
• Provides advice for future administrations regarding educational equity
• Explores the impact of AI and technology on higher education
• Reflects on criticism faced in leadership positions
Thank you for listening and engaging with our podcast!
eloy@4leggedmedia.com
www.4leggedmedia.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant Podcast, the podcastthat pulls back the curtain and
breaks down the people, thepolicies and the politics of our
education system.
In this episode we begin aseries of interviews focused on
leading higher education throughthe Trump administration.
To begin the series ofconversations, I got a chance to
(00:32):
catch up with Undersecretary ofEducation James Quall.
James has served as theUndersecretary for the Biden
administration since early on inthe administration and is
responsible for some significantchanges to student loan
borrower programs as well as thestudent financial aid space.
(00:53):
I talk with James about thedepartment's successes and its
challenges over the last fouryears and what advice he has for
higher education leaders andpolicymakers on navigating the
next four years of the newadministration and, with that,
enjoy my conversation withUndersecretary of Education
(01:13):
James Qual.
Mr Undersecretary, welcome tothe RAND Podcast.
Thanks, it's great to be back.
It's good to have you, james.
Thank you for inviting us intoyour office here at the US
Department of Education.
We have a wonderful view brightblue skies out there today.
Thanks for coming back.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
We just took your name off the door so it's good
to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, I'm sure that name was coming down anyway.
So, anyway, thanks for beingwith us.
I know you've got a lot goingon today and for the next couple
of days got a lot going ontoday and for the next couple of
days, but I wanted to take sometime just to sit with you and
talk about the last four years.
So let's start with you.
You came on to the Bidenadministration early on in the
(01:56):
first year.
What have the last four yearsbeen like for you and what are
you most proud of that Ed wasable to accomplish under your
leadership and SecretaryCardona's leadership?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, you know, I mean it's, of course, a
privilege to be in publicservice and we've got a lot done
.
I think we set out to do twobig things, and one was that
President Biden is really thefirst president to face up to
the problems of the student loanprogram.
Right, and we've put in place,you know, policies that mean if
(02:33):
you can't afford to repay yourloan because you're in public
service or you have a disability, or maybe you've been making
payments on your loan for 25years already, you can now get
that forgiveness you've earned.
And that bureaucracy was justnot working before.
Right, and that's nowdischarged the loans at 5
million people.
So that's a big deal.
(02:53):
And when you combine that withincreases in Pell grants, he's
happy in tuition-free communitycollege.
He's looked at identifying theplaces where this unaffordable
debt is all coming from.
You know, I think you'restarting to see a new approach
to how we pay for college thatdoesn't ask young people to go
(03:14):
deep into loans they can'tafford.
And then the second area that'sbeen really important to
Secretary Cardona has beentalking about a new vision for
college excellence that isrooted in how many opportunities
you create, not how selectiveyou are in doling them out and
in fact he's invited sevenleading schools here today to
(03:37):
talk about what they do.
That has proven so successful.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well, it's interesting to me that the one
thing that you all have incommon with the incoming
administration is this desire tohighlight more of the
institutions that have much morebroad appeal to Americans of
all backgrounds, rather than themost rejective colleges and
universities in this country.
So I'm sure it'll be adifferent flavor in the next
(04:05):
administration about how theysupport higher education.
But you've done a lot, and oneof those areas and you hit on it
a little bit was financial aid.
Financial aid has been a bigpush here for the department,
and particularly the role youhad in rolling out the
simplified FAFSA, which hadgotten done under Congress and
(04:29):
then it became theresponsibility of the department
to roll out.
I know you had several bumps inthe road on the way, but where
are you with the simplificationprocess and what should learners
and their families expect goingforward?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, there's no question that implementing the
FAFSA simplification was a bigdeal and for us, we had to
replace or modernize about 20different computer systems.
Some of them were almost 50years old and, moreover, they
interface with 5,000 collegesand universities, every state,
(05:05):
private scholarship entities,high schools and college
counselors.
It's a very complex project.
We did encounter some delaysand some errors that were
frustrating for students andfamilies, and I know it was a
lot of extra work for ourpartners.
(05:25):
We lean on them every year, butthis year in particular it was
extra work.
It was late in the cycle andstudents needed extra help
getting through the process.
You know, the good news is thatwe have worked through many of
those issues.
We actually have more studentsreceiving student aid this year.
(05:46):
We have more students enrolledin college this year.
The clearinghouse announcedyesterday we actually have more
first-time college students incollege this year than we did
last year.
So really appreciate ourpartners lifting us up and we
also have launched the FAFSA forstudents starting next fall.
(06:07):
We've already processed about 4million of those Many people.
It's taken about 15 minutes perperson and we're processing
those within about a businessday.
So we've really come a long wayin turning the FAFSA around
relative to where we were in thewintertime.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, that's great news.
I'm sure that'll be welcomenews for campuses throughout the
country and, of course, mostimportantly, for our lowest
income learners who want accessto a great post-secondary
experience.
Now, part of thatpost-secondary experience also
many times involves taking outstudent loan debt, which you all
have been working on quite abit For the last four years.
(06:49):
President Biden campaigned onthe issue of student loan debt
forgiveness and, as youmentioned, you recently
announced that you've surpassedover.
You have now more than 5million borrowers that have had
their student loans forgiven.
That's a great accomplishment.
So where is that process andwhat should student loan
(07:15):
borrowers be thinking about asthey move forward in the
transition to the nextadministration?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, so look, this was something where Secretary
Cardona wanted to use every toolthat we have to get relief in
the hands of students, and wetook student debt relief all the
way to the Supreme Court.
We created the SAVE repaymentplan, which cut payments in half
for undergraduates.
That is still undergoinglitigation and that's part of
(07:44):
the process.
You know it is the fourth timethe department has created a
repayment plan.
I think our authority here ispretty well established, but
that is still playing out in thecourts.
The other changes we made havebeen to make these existing
categorical loan forgivenessprograms work, and one of the
(08:05):
things that we found when we gothere was, even if you were
eligible for loan forgiveness,even if we knew you were
eligible for loan forgiveness,you typically were not getting
through our process and notgetting the relief you were
entitled to.
So only 7,000 people had evergotten public service loan
forgiveness.
Many spent years in the wrongrepayment plan or they needed to
(08:27):
consolidate their loans, but noone had told them and that time
was just lost.
We've now fixed a lot of thosetricks and traps and gotten the
number of public servants up to1 million.
We've done similar things tosimplify the other plans to
automate them where we can, tohelp people with total and
permanent disabilities, peoplewho were cheated by for-profit
(08:48):
colleges, people who had beenmaking payments for 25 years or
longer and were eligible forrelief under our repayment plan.
None of those people wereregularly getting relief before,
and now they are, and so thoseare enduring changes to both
policy and to execution that Ithink are going to continue to
(09:09):
benefit people for some time,because these are programs
created by Congress thatborrowers have a right to.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Now.
You've been in higher-ratepolicy for some time now.
You spent eight years in theObama administration, four years
in the Biden administration.
You led the Institute forCollege Access and Success in
between, so you've been doingthis for a while.
Student loan debt always comesup as a major issue in and out
of different administrations,and I'm sure it'll be an issue
that comes up again in the Trumpadministration administrations
(09:39):
and I'm sure it'll be an issuethat comes up again in Trump
administration.
Given the consternation aroundhow we have students pay for
college, particularly graduateeducation, the cost of things
like graduate education and thevalue that students are getting
from their undergraduateeducation, what advice would you
have for the incomingadministration?
(10:00):
What do we need to do differentin how we ask students to
borrow and what is theresponsibility of institutions?
Yeah well, look.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
For a long time student loans have been an easy
answer for everybody, as long asyou assume, to that students
are going to be able to pay themback.
Right, they have no cost forthe federal government,
obviously no cost to states orcolleges, you know.
But now we see, as students areborrowing more and more, the
idea that college delivers afinancial ROI to every student.
(10:33):
You know it's just not beingborne out.
One in three students don'tgraduate.
You see some programs thatdon't deliver the career that
was promised or perhaps arenever intended to lead to a high
paying career, mm-hmm, I seeracial disparities.
So the idea that college isjust about the financial ROI to
(10:59):
the individual student, you know, I think is really missing the
big picture.
And if we ask people to go deepinto debt, often with loans they
can't afford to repay, that is,you know, not just a handful of
highly paid professionals.
We're talking about 43 millionAmericans teachers, nurses,
(11:21):
first responders, hairstylists,massage therapists, truck
drivers and you know it's anissue for their families.
You know the students I meet.
You know college is often aninvestment a whole family is
making in trying to lift up thetrajectory of their family.
And it's an issue forcommunities, if people can't
(11:42):
feel like they go into communityservice, or even religion or
the arts or some of these otherlow-paid careers.
So you know, I think we need tothink carefully about whether
our heavy reliance on studentdebt is consistent with our
mission as educators, or arethese debt burdens standing in
(12:03):
the way of the goals we have forour students Right?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
No, I think that is a critical question.
It's a question that we'rewrestling with at the place
where I work, at College FuturesFoundation, and I'm sure it's
an issue that the nextadministration will be wrestling
with, because, as our partnerover at College Futures, michael
Hitzkowitz, always says, youknow that student loan is, for
(12:27):
many learners and their families, is the biggest amount of debt
that they're going to take outbeyond a mortgage, if they even
get a chance to take out amortgage.
And if you default on yourstudent loan debt, well, guess
what?
You're not going to have theopportunity to take out a
mortgage.
That's right.
So it is a huge issue.
It's a huge issue forlow-income Americans throughout
the country.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Can I put in one more plug there, which is we are now
implementing what we call thefinancial value transparency,
and I know colleges are underthe gun as we speak try to get
that data in, and I know it's alot of work to put that data
together, especially the firsttime you do it.
(13:08):
What we're going to be able toproduce for every program in the
country, at every type ofcollege and university, is to be
able to say to students youknow, if you graduate from this
program, this is what you canexpect to owe and this is what
you can expect to earn, and thatis going to be able, for the
first time, to let students makeinformed decisions about
(13:31):
whether they want to take outthose loans.
And I think, for those of uswho are educators, it's going to
let us zero in on thoseprograms, and there may be, you
know, a handful, even oncampuses that are very well
resourced and very prestigious,where people are not paying
careful attention to the careeroutcomes and the student loan
(13:52):
outcomes of students.
And so my hope is, you know wewill follow through on that data
and that we can organize aroundit to really have an actionable
agenda about how to address theroot causes of student debt
problems.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I don't have a lot of sympathy when it comes to
ensuring that this kind of datagets gathered and published,
because this is important datafor transparency, for learners
and their families to be able tomake educated and well-reasoned
decisions about programs ofstudy that they're going into.
I get that my colleagues have alot of burdens on them.
I mean, federal government doeshave some burdens that even I
don't agree with, but this is animportant one.
(14:42):
Helping learners and theirfamilies make better decisions,
particularly when it comes togetting into debt, I think is
critical.
Going forward Now.
We've been talking about thework of the Department of
Education.
Certainly, the financial aidsystem, the federal student loan
system All these are part ofwhat the Department of Education
(15:05):
does on a daily basis, and itdoes many more things.
We won't even get into the K-12side of the House.
We'll just focus here on thehigher education side of the
House.
It does a lot of things.
It administers a lot ofprograms that were enacted by
Congress.
There's been a lot of talkabout the possibility of
dismantling the Department ofEducation.
What do you think the impact ofthat would be on everyday
(15:28):
Americans?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Well, I mean the department just in the area of
higher education.
The idea that you know, if theidea is that suddenly you would
not have student loans, youwould not have Pell Grants, you
know that would be immenselydisruptive to who goes to
college and how they pay for it.
You know, I think if thedepartment was not able to
invest in proven ways to helpmore people graduate from
(15:50):
college, that would be a lossfor all of us.
You know, I think legislationto eliminate the Department of
Education has been somethingthat has been on some
conservatives' wish list sincethe agency was created 50 years
ago.
It would take an act ofCongress.
Those are hard to come by.
What I would like to see all ofus focus on is the continued
(16:14):
health of the department.
And when there are budgetfreezes, when there are hiring
freezes, freezes, when there arethreats to sort of root out
career staff or make this anundesirable place to work, you
know that has an impact too, andI have learned so much from the
(16:39):
career staff here at thedepartment over the years and we
are so talented, so fortunateto have such talented and
dedicated people making theircareers here, and that's
something that we really need toappreciate and we need to
support them if we want theseprograms to work the way they
should work.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Well, we should want it to work because that provides
the strength to the Americanworkforce, provides the educated
workforce that we want in thiscountry, and we want to ensure
that everybody, regardless ofwhat background they come with,
has the opportunity toparticipate in the economic
mobility that this countryprovides.
So hopefully that will be thecase going forward, whatever
(17:19):
happens here in the next fouryears.
Let's talk about the impact oftechnology, particularly AI.
Since you became undersecretary, there's been an explosion in
technology, particularlygenerative AI.
A lot of talk.
You've come to conferences likeASU GSV Summit and others to
(17:41):
talk to Summit and others totalk to ed tech executives,
venture capitalists, about howto navigate the huge upside of
this technology, but also thedownside of the technology.
How are you thinking about itas you're leaving the office
here?
What are some of theopportunities that you see for
AI in higher education and whatare some of the guardrails that
(18:05):
you think needs to be put inplace?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well, obviously we're as amazing as AI is and the
things it can already do.
You know we're just in theearly stages and things are
changing so quickly that it canbe hard to keep up with what's
already happening.
Much less you know what mightbe possible in three years or
five years.
I think there's already reallyexciting potential for AI to
(18:35):
help students learn more quicklyat lower cost.
Ai has a lot of potential tohelp colleges and universities
with their back officeoperations in ways that could
also lower costs.
And you know, I also think weneed to be very careful in how
we think about the impact thatAI will have on the workforce.
(18:56):
And you know some of the skillsthat even a few years ago we
thought everyone should learncomputer programming.
You know that may be helpful forother reasons, but it's not
going to be.
It doesn't appear like it'sgoing to be careers for a lot of
people going forward.
So we need to think carefullyas educators.
What are those enduring humanskills?
(19:18):
And especially if AI, as it'sstarting to appear, becomes
capable of doing similar workthat people do early in their
careers, that we often hireyoung people and they learn and
grow into more seasonedprofessionals or other workers
(19:38):
we may need to think about howdo we support people for a
longer period of time prior totheir careers so that they're in
a position to make the most useof AI?
So there's some really bigquestions there for us to
grapple with.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
So part of this job entails having to make a lot of
decisions about how to interpretcongressional actions and how
to promulgate regulations andhow to enforce regulations, how
to think about compliance.
The Undersecretary at timesgets its share of criticism as
(20:15):
well as, every now and then, alittle bit of praise.
You've endured a lot ofcriticism about some of the
decisions you've made, sometimesfrom folks on the right,
sometimes particularly recentlywith some of the decisions you
did make from folks on the left.
How do you navigate all thatand what would be your advice to
(20:36):
the next undersecretary that'swalking in here?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Oh, I mean it's tough .
I think it's probably tough forpeople in all manner of
positions that have a publicprofile now, and it can be hard,
you know.
I think it's hard, inparticular for me when people
sort of question motivations.
I'm sure we do make mistakes,but it's not due to a lack of
(21:00):
conscientious effort to do theright thing thing and at the
same time, you know it comeswith the territory.
It's fair game and you know,here we are, here in our last
days, and we're talking aboutwhat we're proud of, what we've
accomplished, and other peopleare also giving their take on
(21:21):
what we've done and what weshould have done and what we
never should have done.
Take on what we've done andwhat we should have done and
what we never should have done,and that's, you know, that's
part of it too.
I think it's healthy that thesekinds of assessments are taking
place, that there's a change inleadership that will come in
with fresh eyes, and I think weshould all participate in this
conversation about what'sworking and what, what the next
(21:45):
team should do Right.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Well, let me ask you one last question as we begin to
wrap up, because I know you'vegot a lot on your plate today.
What's next for UndersecretaryJames Quall?
I mean, you've spent aconsiderable amount of time here
in DC working on the issuesthat we've just touched on.
What are you looking forward toas you leave the administration
(22:10):
, and what are some of thethings you're thinking about
doing?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Well, short term, I don't know.
I'm going to visit some family.
I'm looking forward to pickingup my four-year-old from school.
For a little while it feelscontroversial, but I still
really believe in higher ed andI think that colleges and
universities have to be a partof solving our country's biggest
problems, and I think there's alot of good work to do there.
(22:37):
So I hope to find a way to makea contribution in that area.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Well, I have a feeling that you will and I know
many of the folks who arewatching this podcast, I'm sure
will have the opportunity towork with you in the years to
come.
There's lots of work left to doand I just want to say that on
behalf of myself and all of usin this business.
I just want to thank you foryour service, james, you and
(23:03):
your team.
I mean.
This is sometimes a thanklessjob.
It's a tough job.
I've had the opportunity towitness it, sometimes close by,
sometimes from afar, but anybodywho steps in this role, whether
Republican, democrat oreverything in between, it is a
tough job to try to continue tomove higher education policy
(23:25):
forward.
At the same time, try to makeeverybody happy, which never
happens.
So thank you for your service.
It's been a pleasure to workwith you over the last four
years.
I look forward to working withyou for many, many more years.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Thanks, eloy.
You know I've been a bigadmirer of your leadership
through several roles now, sothat means a lot coming from you
, thank you All right.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Thanks for being on the podcast.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant Podcast, the podcastthat pulls back the curtain and
breaks down the people, thepolicies and the politics of our
education system.
In this episode we begin aseries of interviews focused on
leading higher education throughthe Trump administration.
To begin the series ofconversations, I got a chance to
(00:32):
catch up with Undersecretary ofEducation James Quall.
James has served as theUndersecretary for the Biden
administration since early on inthe administration and is
responsible for some significantchanges to student loan
borrower programs as well as thestudent financial aid space.
(00:53):
I talk with James about thedepartment's successes and its
challenges over the last fouryears and what advice he has for
higher education leaders andpolicymakers on navigating the
next four years of the newadministration and, with that,
enjoy my conversation withUndersecretary of Education
(01:13):
James Qual.
Mr Undersecretary, welcome tothe RAND Podcast.
Thanks, it's great to be back.
It's good to have you, james.
Thank you for inviting us intoyour office here at the US
Department of Education.
We have a wonderful view brightblue skies out there today.
Thanks for coming back.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
We just took your name off the door so it's good
to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, I'm sure that name was coming down anyway.
So, anyway, thanks for beingwith us.
I know you've got a lot goingon today and for the next couple
of days got a lot going ontoday and for the next couple of
days, but I wanted to take sometime just to sit with you and
talk about the last four years.
So let's start with you.
You came on to the Bidenadministration early on in the
(01:56):
first year.
What have the last four yearsbeen like for you and what are
you most proud of that Ed wasable to accomplish under your
leadership and SecretaryCardona's leadership?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, you know, I mean it's, of course, a
privilege to be in publicservice and we've got a lot done
.
I think we set out to do twobig things, and one was that
President Biden is really thefirst president to face up to
the problems of the student loanprogram.
Right, and we've put in place,you know, policies that mean if
(02:33):
you can't afford to repay yourloan because you're in public
service or you have a disability, or maybe you've been making
payments on your loan for 25years already, you can now get
that forgiveness you've earned.
And that bureaucracy was justnot working before.
Right, and that's nowdischarged the loans at 5
million people.
So that's a big deal.
(02:53):
And when you combine that withincreases in Pell grants, he's
happy in tuition-free communitycollege.
He's looked at identifying theplaces where this unaffordable
debt is all coming from.
You know, I think you'restarting to see a new approach
to how we pay for college thatdoesn't ask young people to go
(03:14):
deep into loans they can'tafford.
And then the second area that'sbeen really important to
Secretary Cardona has beentalking about a new vision for
college excellence that isrooted in how many opportunities
you create, not how selectiveyou are in doling them out and
in fact he's invited sevenleading schools here today to
(03:37):
talk about what they do.
That has proven so successful.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well, it's interesting to me that the one
thing that you all have incommon with the incoming
administration is this desire tohighlight more of the
institutions that have much morebroad appeal to Americans of
all backgrounds, rather than themost rejective colleges and
universities in this country.
So I'm sure it'll be adifferent flavor in the next
(04:05):
administration about how theysupport higher education.
But you've done a lot, and oneof those areas and you hit on it
a little bit was financial aid.
Financial aid has been a bigpush here for the department,
and particularly the role youhad in rolling out the
simplified FAFSA, which hadgotten done under Congress and
(04:29):
then it became theresponsibility of the department
to roll out.
I know you had several bumps inthe road on the way, but where
are you with the simplificationprocess and what should learners
and their families expect goingforward?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, there's no question that implementing the
FAFSA simplification was a bigdeal and for us, we had to
replace or modernize about 20different computer systems.
Some of them were almost 50years old and, moreover, they
interface with 5,000 collegesand universities, every state,
(05:05):
private scholarship entities,high schools and college
counselors.
It's a very complex project.
We did encounter some delaysand some errors that were
frustrating for students andfamilies, and I know it was a
lot of extra work for ourpartners.
(05:25):
We lean on them every year, butthis year in particular it was
extra work.
It was late in the cycle andstudents needed extra help
getting through the process.
You know, the good news is thatwe have worked through many of
those issues.
We actually have more studentsreceiving student aid this year.
(05:46):
We have more students enrolledin college this year.
The clearinghouse announcedyesterday we actually have more
first-time college students incollege this year than we did
last year.
So really appreciate ourpartners lifting us up and we
also have launched the FAFSA forstudents starting next fall.
(06:07):
We've already processed about 4million of those Many people.
It's taken about 15 minutes perperson and we're processing
those within about a businessday.
So we've really come a long wayin turning the FAFSA around
relative to where we were in thewintertime.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, that's great news.
I'm sure that'll be welcomenews for campuses throughout the
country and, of course, mostimportantly, for our lowest
income learners who want accessto a great post-secondary
experience.
Now, part of thatpost-secondary experience also
many times involves taking outstudent loan debt, which you all
have been working on quite abit For the last four years.
(06:49):
President Biden campaigned onthe issue of student loan debt
forgiveness and, as youmentioned, you recently
announced that you've surpassedover.
You have now more than 5million borrowers that have had
their student loans forgiven.
That's a great accomplishment.
So where is that process andwhat should student loan
(07:15):
borrowers be thinking about asthey move forward in the
transition to the nextadministration?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, so look, this was something where Secretary
Cardona wanted to use every toolthat we have to get relief in
the hands of students, and wetook student debt relief all the
way to the Supreme Court.
We created the SAVE repaymentplan, which cut payments in half
for undergraduates.
That is still undergoinglitigation and that's part of
(07:44):
the process.
You know it is the fourth timethe department has created a
repayment plan.
I think our authority here ispretty well established, but
that is still playing out in thecourts.
The other changes we made havebeen to make these existing
categorical loan forgivenessprograms work, and one of the
(08:05):
things that we found when we gothere was, even if you were
eligible for loan forgiveness,even if we knew you were
eligible for loan forgiveness,you typically were not getting
through our process and notgetting the relief you were
entitled to.
So only 7,000 people had evergotten public service loan
forgiveness.
Many spent years in the wrongrepayment plan or they needed to
(08:27):
consolidate their loans, but noone had told them and that time
was just lost.
We've now fixed a lot of thosetricks and traps and gotten the
number of public servants up to1 million.
We've done similar things tosimplify the other plans to
automate them where we can, tohelp people with total and
permanent disabilities, peoplewho were cheated by for-profit
(08:48):
colleges, people who had beenmaking payments for 25 years or
longer and were eligible forrelief under our repayment plan.
None of those people wereregularly getting relief before,
and now they are, and so thoseare enduring changes to both
policy and to execution that Ithink are going to continue to
(09:09):
benefit people for some time,because these are programs
created by Congress thatborrowers have a right to.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Now.
You've been in higher-ratepolicy for some time now.
You spent eight years in theObama administration, four years
in the Biden administration.
You led the Institute forCollege Access and Success in
between, so you've been doingthis for a while.
Student loan debt always comesup as a major issue in and out
of different administrations,and I'm sure it'll be an issue
that comes up again in the Trumpadministration administrations
(09:39):
and I'm sure it'll be an issuethat comes up again in Trump
administration.
Given the consternation aroundhow we have students pay for
college, particularly graduateeducation, the cost of things
like graduate education and thevalue that students are getting
from their undergraduateeducation, what advice would you
have for the incomingadministration?
(10:00):
What do we need to do differentin how we ask students to
borrow and what is theresponsibility of institutions?
Yeah well, look.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
For a long time student loans have been an easy
answer for everybody, as long asyou assume, to that students
are going to be able to pay themback.
Right, they have no cost forthe federal government,
obviously no cost to states orcolleges, you know.
But now we see, as students areborrowing more and more, the
idea that college delivers afinancial ROI to every student.
(10:33):
You know it's just not beingborne out.
One in three students don'tgraduate.
You see some programs thatdon't deliver the career that
was promised or perhaps arenever intended to lead to a high
paying career, mm-hmm, I seeracial disparities.
So the idea that college isjust about the financial ROI to
(10:59):
the individual student, you know, I think is really missing the
big picture.
And if we ask people to go deepinto debt, often with loans they
can't afford to repay, that is,you know, not just a handful of
highly paid professionals.
We're talking about 43 millionAmericans teachers, nurses,
(11:21):
first responders, hairstylists,massage therapists, truck
drivers and you know it's anissue for their families.
You know the students I meet.
You know college is often aninvestment a whole family is
making in trying to lift up thetrajectory of their family.
And it's an issue forcommunities, if people can't
(11:42):
feel like they go into communityservice, or even religion or
the arts or some of these otherlow-paid careers.
So you know, I think we need tothink carefully about whether
our heavy reliance on studentdebt is consistent with our
mission as educators, or arethese debt burdens standing in
(12:03):
the way of the goals we have forour students Right?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
No, I think that is a critical question.
It's a question that we'rewrestling with at the place
where I work, at College FuturesFoundation, and I'm sure it's
an issue that the nextadministration will be wrestling
with, because, as our partnerover at College Futures, michael
Hitzkowitz, always says, youknow that student loan is, for
(12:27):
many learners and their families, is the biggest amount of debt
that they're going to take outbeyond a mortgage, if they even
get a chance to take out amortgage.
And if you default on yourstudent loan debt, well, guess
what?
You're not going to have theopportunity to take out a
mortgage.
That's right.
So it is a huge issue.
It's a huge issue forlow-income Americans throughout
the country.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Can I put in one more plug there, which is we are now
implementing what we call thefinancial value transparency,
and I know colleges are underthe gun as we speak try to get
that data in, and I know it's alot of work to put that data
together, especially the firsttime you do it.
(13:08):
What we're going to be able toproduce for every program in the
country, at every type ofcollege and university, is to be
able to say to students youknow, if you graduate from this
program, this is what you canexpect to owe and this is what
you can expect to earn, and thatis going to be able, for the
first time, to let students makeinformed decisions about
(13:31):
whether they want to take outthose loans.
And I think, for those of uswho are educators, it's going to
let us zero in on thoseprograms, and there may be, you
know, a handful, even oncampuses that are very well
resourced and very prestigious,where people are not paying
careful attention to the careeroutcomes and the student loan
(13:52):
outcomes of students.
And so my hope is, you know wewill follow through on that data
and that we can organize aroundit to really have an actionable
agenda about how to address theroot causes of student debt
problems.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I don't have a lot of sympathy when it comes to
ensuring that this kind of datagets gathered and published,
because this is important datafor transparency, for learners
and their families to be able tomake educated and well-reasoned
decisions about programs ofstudy that they're going into.
I get that my colleagues have alot of burdens on them.
I mean, federal government doeshave some burdens that even I
don't agree with, but this is animportant one.
(14:42):
Helping learners and theirfamilies make better decisions,
particularly when it comes togetting into debt, I think is
critical.
Going forward Now.
We've been talking about thework of the Department of
Education.
Certainly, the financial aidsystem, the federal student loan
system All these are part ofwhat the Department of Education
(15:05):
does on a daily basis, and itdoes many more things.
We won't even get into the K-12side of the House.
We'll just focus here on thehigher education side of the
House.
It does a lot of things.
It administers a lot ofprograms that were enacted by
Congress.
There's been a lot of talkabout the possibility of
dismantling the Department ofEducation.
What do you think the impact ofthat would be on everyday
(15:28):
Americans?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Well, I mean the department just in the area of
higher education.
The idea that you know, if theidea is that suddenly you would
not have student loans, youwould not have Pell Grants, you
know that would be immenselydisruptive to who goes to
college and how they pay for it.
You know, I think if thedepartment was not able to
invest in proven ways to helpmore people graduate from
(15:50):
college, that would be a lossfor all of us.
You know, I think legislationto eliminate the Department of
Education has been somethingthat has been on some
conservatives' wish list sincethe agency was created 50 years
ago.
It would take an act ofCongress.
Those are hard to come by.
What I would like to see all ofus focus on is the continued
(16:14):
health of the department.
And when there are budgetfreezes, when there are hiring
freezes, freezes, when there arethreats to sort of root out
career staff or make this anundesirable place to work, you
know that has an impact too, andI have learned so much from the
(16:39):
career staff here at thedepartment over the years and we
are so talented, so fortunateto have such talented and
dedicated people making theircareers here, and that's
something that we really need toappreciate and we need to
support them if we want theseprograms to work the way they
should work.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Well, we should want it to work because that provides
the strength to the Americanworkforce, provides the educated
workforce that we want in thiscountry, and we want to ensure
that everybody, regardless ofwhat background they come with,
has the opportunity toparticipate in the economic
mobility that this countryprovides.
So hopefully that will be thecase going forward, whatever
(17:19):
happens here in the next fouryears.
Let's talk about the impact oftechnology, particularly AI.
Since you became undersecretary, there's been an explosion in
technology, particularlygenerative AI.
A lot of talk.
You've come to conferences likeASU GSV Summit and others to
(17:41):
talk to Summit and others totalk to ed tech executives,
venture capitalists, about howto navigate the huge upside of
this technology, but also thedownside of the technology.
How are you thinking about itas you're leaving the office
here?
What are some of theopportunities that you see for
AI in higher education and whatare some of the guardrails that
(18:05):
you think needs to be put inplace?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well, obviously we're as amazing as AI is and the
things it can already do.
You know we're just in theearly stages and things are
changing so quickly that it canbe hard to keep up with what's
already happening.
Much less you know what mightbe possible in three years or
five years.
I think there's already reallyexciting potential for AI to
(18:35):
help students learn more quicklyat lower cost.
Ai has a lot of potential tohelp colleges and universities
with their back officeoperations in ways that could
also lower costs.
And you know, I also think weneed to be very careful in how
we think about the impact thatAI will have on the workforce.
(18:56):
And you know some of the skillsthat even a few years ago we
thought everyone should learncomputer programming.
You know that may be helpful forother reasons, but it's not
going to be.
It doesn't appear like it'sgoing to be careers for a lot of
people going forward.
So we need to think carefullyas educators.
What are those enduring humanskills?
(19:18):
And especially if AI, as it'sstarting to appear, becomes
capable of doing similar workthat people do early in their
careers, that we often hireyoung people and they learn and
grow into more seasonedprofessionals or other workers
(19:38):
we may need to think about howdo we support people for a
longer period of time prior totheir careers so that they're in
a position to make the most useof AI?
So there's some really bigquestions there for us to
grapple with.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
So part of this job entails having to make a lot of
decisions about how to interpretcongressional actions and how
to promulgate regulations andhow to enforce regulations, how
to think about compliance.
The Undersecretary at timesgets its share of criticism as
(20:15):
well as, every now and then, alittle bit of praise.
You've endured a lot ofcriticism about some of the
decisions you've made, sometimesfrom folks on the right,
sometimes particularly recentlywith some of the decisions you
did make from folks on the left.
How do you navigate all thatand what would be your advice to
(20:36):
the next undersecretary that'swalking in here?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Oh, I mean it's tough .
I think it's probably tough forpeople in all manner of
positions that have a publicprofile now, and it can be hard,
you know.
I think it's hard, inparticular for me when people
sort of question motivations.
I'm sure we do make mistakes,but it's not due to a lack of
(21:00):
conscientious effort to do theright thing thing and at the
same time, you know it comeswith the territory.
It's fair game and you know,here we are, here in our last
days, and we're talking aboutwhat we're proud of, what we've
accomplished, and other peopleare also giving their take on
(21:21):
what we've done and what weshould have done and what we
never should have done.
Take on what we've done andwhat we should have done and
what we never should have done,and that's, you know, that's
part of it too.
I think it's healthy that thesekinds of assessments are taking
place, that there's a change inleadership that will come in
with fresh eyes, and I think weshould all participate in this
conversation about what'sworking and what, what the next
(21:45):
team should do Right.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Well, let me ask you one last question as we begin to
wrap up, because I know you'vegot a lot on your plate today.
What's next for UndersecretaryJames Quall?
I mean, you've spent aconsiderable amount of time here
in DC working on the issuesthat we've just touched on.
What are you looking forward toas you leave the administration
(22:10):
, and what are some of thethings you're thinking about
doing?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Well, short term, I don't know.
I'm going to visit some family.
I'm looking forward to pickingup my four-year-old from school.
For a little while it feelscontroversial, but I still
really believe in higher ed andI think that colleges and
universities have to be a partof solving our country's biggest
problems, and I think there's alot of good work to do there.
(22:37):
So I hope to find a way to makea contribution in that area.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Well, I have a feeling that you will and I know
many of the folks who arewatching this podcast, I'm sure
will have the opportunity towork with you in the years to
come.
There's lots of work left to doand I just want to say that on
behalf of myself and all of usin this business.
I just want to thank you foryour service, james, you and
(23:03):
your team.
I mean.
This is sometimes a thanklessjob.
It's a tough job.
I've had the opportunity towitness it, sometimes close by,
sometimes from afar, but anybodywho steps in this role, whether
Republican, democrat oreverything in between, it is a
tough job to try to continue tomove higher education policy
(23:25):
forward.
At the same time, try to makeeverybody happy, which never
happens.
So thank you for your service.
It's been a pleasure to workwith you over the last four
years.
I look forward to working withyou for many, many more years.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Thanks, eloy.
You know I've been a bigadmirer of your leadership
through several roles now, sothat means a lot coming from you
, thank you All right.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Thanks for being on the podcast.
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