March 4, 2025 • 32 mins
The pursuit of higher education has always been seen as a pathway to success, but how effectively are colleges serving low and moderate-income students? In this episode, we engage with Michael Itzkowitz to unveil the California Mobility Index, a new tool that examines how various institutions rank in terms of creating genuine opportunities for their students. The Mobility Index serves not merely to illuminate which colleges offer the best return on investment but to challenge traditional perceptions of educational value.
As we navigate through this enlightening discussion, we discover how the index highlights institutions that are already making strides in advancing economic mobility. Most notably, it emphasizes the role of public and Hispanic-serving colleges in providing essential support to a wide array of learners and delivering impressive results when it comes to true value in education.
Throughout our conversation, we also tackle pressing questions surrounding the allocation of taxpayer funds and the necessity for effective government oversight of educational institutions. Given the dynamic landscape of today’s workforce, understanding which colleges are best suited to extend opportunities is vital for both economic growth and social equity.
Join us as we dive deeper into the statistics, share insights into the findings, and encourage listeners to think critically about their own educational journeys. We invite you to reflect on what it means for a college to create real value and how the California Mobility Index can facilitate better decision-making for students and families alike. Don't miss this opportunity to broaden your perspective on higher education and explore paths toward equitable access to quality education. Be sure to tune in, share your thoughts, and subscribe for more discussions like this!
https://collegefutures.org/california-mobility-index/
https://www.theheagroup.com/
eloy@4leggedmedia.com
www.4leggedmedia.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant Podcast, the podcastwhere we pull back the curtain
and break down the people, thepolicies and the politics of our
higher education system.
In this episode, we continueour conversation about
navigating the landscape in thenew administration.
We're going to be talking aboutdata data that reflects how
(00:35):
much value colleges andinstitutions are creating for
states like California.
Recently, college FuturesFoundation and the HEA group,
led by Michael Litzkowitz,partnered again to launch what's
called the California MobilityIndex.
The California Mobility Indexcan be found on the College
(00:57):
Futures website atwwwcollegefuturesorg.
I'll put the link to the CMIthe California Mobility Index,
in the description of thispodcast.
The California Mobility Indexfocuses on institutions that are
creating the greatest value forlow and moderate income
students, and it begins theeffort to create a new way to
(01:20):
assess and to rank institutionsand to give more and better
information to consumers.
So I'm excited to have thisconversation with Michael
Itzkiewicz he's back for thethird time and we're going to be
talking about how the CMI theCalifornia Mobility Index better
reflects how institutions arecreating value for Californians
(01:43):
and how policymakers shouldthink about focusing time,
attention and resources on thoseinstitutions that create the
greatest lift for Californiansand create the greatest value
for the state of California.
And since we're talking thesedays about government efficiency
, this is an excellent way tobegin to get at where taxpayer
(02:06):
dollars are going and whothey're serving.
So with that backdrop, pleaseenjoy my conversation with
Michael Itzkiewicz.
President of the HEA Group.
Michael, welcome back to theRant Podcast.
Nice to see you, lillard.
Well, it's great to have youback, michael.
This is your third time.
You are now setting the recordfor the Rant podcast.
(02:31):
You are the only person that'scome back for the third time, so
we're happy to have you back.
And you're coming back becausewe have a lot going on.
We're going to be talking aboutsome new work that you've done
for College Futures, about somenew work that you've done for
College Futures.
But before we get into that,how are you doing and how are
(02:52):
you surviving the chaos of thebeginning of the year.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Well, you know, when you're going through something,
you try to focus on one day at atime.
So I constantly try to focus onthe next 24 hours, and the last
24 hours have been good.
I'm confident this 24 hourswill go well and I'm looking
forward to our upcoming release.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Well, so am I.
Let's talk about that release.
So College Futures hassponsored some additional work
with you and your colleagues atthe HEA group.
At the HEA group, this timeproducing what is called a
California Mobility Index.
(03:31):
The California Mobility Indexlooks at all of the four-year
institutions here in Californiaand essentially creates an index
based on your previous workthat looked at ROI and tries to
sort out which four-yearcolleges and universities in
California are doing the best inserving low to moderate income
(03:55):
learners.
Tell us about that work.
Tell us about the data set, howthat data came together.
Tell us a little bit about thework and then we'll get into
some of the findings.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Sure, well, it's the year 2025, as I remind myself,
and I'm getting older, so I'vebeen doing this work for quite a
while now, and when I waspreviously, at some point in my
life, the director of the USDepartment of Education's
college scorecard, which is thelargest education data set
(04:28):
within the United States and onething that we started.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
As of this recording, there was still a Department of
Education, correct?
As?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
of this.
Well, I haven't checked thismorning, but yeah, as of
yesterday, there is still a USDepartment of Education, there
is still higher education dataand we still have information on
outcomes.
And one thing that we startedto produce back in 2015, which
carried its way through the lastadministration and the
(04:57):
administration before that, wasearnings information how well
students are performing in termsof economics after they attend
an institution or complete acollege program.
So I started to really dig intothese numbers in 2019.
And I was running all this dataon how much our students are
(05:17):
earning.
It's the first time we've seenit.
And then I had this great idea.
I said it sarcastically maybe,but it's like okay, I have the
information on the medianstudent how well is the low
income student doing Right?
So I ran all this data and thenumbers popped up at that point
in time and I don't know who Iwas expecting, but it was
schools that had the best ROIfor low income students were
(05:41):
places like Harvard, yale,princeton and the University of
Chicago, and I thoughtcongratulations, michael, you
just recreated the US news allon your own computer.
But then there was a numbernext to them and it was the
percentage of low andmoderate-income students who
actually enroll at those schools.
So I started to reevaluatehigher education in general and
(06:04):
what we think we know in termsof what we're told year after
year through publication andpublication.
I was like what's really themeaning of higher education?
Is it to recognize the few andthe fortunate, or is it to
actually look at thoseinstitutions that readily enroll
a broad group of students, liftthem up and leave them better
off than the previous generation?
(06:24):
So we did similar work inCalifornia.
We looked at ROI for low andmoderate income students, and
California is a special andunique place, so it wasn't the
Harvard, yale and Princeton allacross the best ROI list, but
there were a couple ofinstitutions like that.
But we decided to take a deeperdive into California and say,
(06:44):
okay, what are theseinstitutions?
Where are the ones that areactually lifting students up the
socioeconomic ladder?
So that's what we've beenworking on over the past few
months now and what we haverecently released.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
As you mentioned, we're looking at how value is
created for low and moderateincome learners, and in the past
, we've relied primarily on aranking or a sorting system that
looks at the most selective or,as some refer to, the most
rejective colleges anduniversities in the country, and
(07:21):
those colleges and universitieswere rewarded for being more
selective and for having awealthier student body and
relying on the earnings of theiralumni.
In this ranking system and, asyou mentioned, most people know
that, as the US News and WorldReport ranking system, and
(07:41):
particularly in this environmentthat we're living in now,
people are asking a lot ofquestions about the value of
their higher education.
They're asking questions aboutthe cost.
What are they paying for?
What are they getting in return?
And, as you know, mostAmericans, most Californians,
receive their higher educationfrom broad access, primarily
(08:04):
public colleges and universitiesacross the country.
This is where most Americansattend college and where most
Americans have been expressingconcern, and so, in California,
the work that you've been doinghas really been highlighting
institutions that are creatingthe greatest lift or creating
(08:25):
the greatest value for low andmoderate income learners in
California, and the way that youcalculated it is you know those
institutions that enroll abroad base of low and moderate
income learners and we're justfocused on California right now
and because of cost, time todegree, other factors they're
(08:46):
able to pay back the cost ofthat education in a relatively
short time and so that createsthe ROI that you've reported on
in the past, the findings thatyou've highlighted in this
California Mobility Index.
Here are some of the highlightsand tell me what popped out at
(09:09):
you.
What popped out at me is 87% ofthe top institutions that
showed up in the index were fromthe California State University
system, and I have to prefacethis by saying and repeating
that this mobility index is onlylooking at four-year
institutions.
(09:29):
We will come back at a latertime, later in the spring, do a
report just on the two-yearinstitutions, but this is just
focused on the four-yearinstitutions.
So a large percentage of thetop institutions were from the
California State Universitysystem and, of course, as we
know, there are broad access,regional, public four-year
(09:51):
university system.
Here in California, 95% of thetop 20 institutions are public
institutions and 95% of the top20 are Hispanic-serving
institutions and 95% of the top20 are Hispanic-serving
institutions.
So, given all those elements,how do you explain some of these
results and what, if anything,surprised you?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The great thing about College Futures and the HEA
group is that we're not relianton selling ads, so we don't need
to tailor our outcomes basedoff of what folks reference
points are right.
What we think we want to seelooked at the outcomes and
(10:35):
inputs of these students,plugged it in and got the
results, some of which you justmentioned, and I think it's
incredible in terms of it's theinstitutions that are serving
just a broad group of students.
Obviously, we're looking at lowand moderate income students,
but you can also see a lot ofthese are Hispanic serving
institutions, like you said.
(10:56):
So they're serving just a bunchof different kinds of students,
offering them an affordableeducation and really offering
them a strong earnings premiumto where they're able to recoup
these costs, oftentimes withinone year.
They're able to earn enough tojust pay down or pay back these
costs within one year of leavingthe institution.
(11:16):
The other thing that stood outto me is these are oftentimes
bigger institutions just interms of the broadness of
students that they serve, thenumber of students that they
serve, in comparison to what wethink of what is the most
prestigious or best institutionwithin California.
So you know, it depends how youlook.
(11:37):
Everyone you know, if you ask acollege president which ranking
do you like the best, they'regoing to say whichever one makes
makes us the highest and that'stotally understandable.
But you know, we oftentimesfocus when we think about this.
It's it's we're focusing onthis small group of institutions
, you know, through ourtraditional news rankings that
serve less than 1% of thepopulation, news rankings that
(12:00):
serve less than 1% of thepopulation, for that 1% of the
population they can also offer agreat ROI.
And for institutions that servethat very small proportion of
low and moderate income studentsand do it extremely well, we
recognize them for doing sowithin our ranking system.
But in terms of just actuallyserving low and moderate income
Californians and giving them andthe ability to recognize the
(12:22):
dream of moving up thesocioeconomic ladder, it's these
bigger, broad basedinstitutions which maybe aren't
readily recognized intraditional news rankings, but
perhaps they should be and weshould also think about the
policy implications of whatthey're doing and what's worth
scaling and expanding theirreach throughout the state.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I agree this gives us a lot to focus on Now.
We all know that there remains alot of imperfections in our
public and private four-yearuniversity systems systems, but
this gives us an opportunity tostart to drive at policy
(13:04):
initiatives, incentives, fundingopportunities to reach those
institutions that are creatingthe greatest value for the
workforce.
Because, regardless of how youfeel about the words diversity,
equity and inclusion and I knowthat's become three bad words in
America these days but thepoint of the matter here is, in
a state like California, or evena state like Texas or Florida,
(13:25):
where you're at, or New York, orjust about anywhere in the
country, there is a growing,diverse workforce that needs to
be educated, the talent needs tobe extracted and connected to
the demand for labor to keep ourcountry and our states
(13:46):
economically viable, and this isalso a national security issue
to ensure that people of allbackgrounds have access to a
great education, particularlytoday, for me and for us at
College Futures, this is notabout a philosophical argument.
This is about an argument forgreater economic security for
(14:06):
more Americans.
And so these institutions a lotof them are Hispanic-serving
institutions, and so many ofthem exist in places in
California that serve a verydiverse population.
So, michael, in your data andyou look at this across states,
(14:28):
across the country are theresimilarities to what's going on
in other states, or are theresome things that surprise you,
that are different in Californiathan other states?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Or are there some things that surprise you that
are different in California thanother states.
When I did look at thisnationally a number of years
back in a different way, I thinkthat we've improved upon that
and thought about ways toiterate based off of that.
One thing that we did recognizeis yeah, there are a lot of
Hispanic serving institutions,or HSIs, that really rose to the
top of the list.
I think nationally, the top 10were actually HSIs.
(15:01):
I brought this information tomy friend you know, Deb Santiago
, who runs Excellencia.
They provide a seal ofexcellence to HSIs, I think
every year, and I showed her theinformation and she looked at
it and she said well, duh, likewe've known that for a very long
time, but now we have the datato back it up.
(15:23):
Right, you know.
So it definitely serves thatpurpose.
And nationally, something elsethat we saw is that these other
kinds of institutions across theUnited States that were never
to be seen on these traditionalnews rankings actually were
shown to perform better than theones that we normally think of.
So, just as an example,nationally, we can see that
(15:45):
seven HBCUs were actually in thetop 100.
Now, if you look at the US news, they're nowhere to be found.
Right, we don't even thinkabout them, or a lot of folks
don't think that they are atop-ranked institution, but
they've been doing the work foryears.
They enroll a broad group ofstudents, they allow them to
earn enough to pay down theireducational costs and they're
(16:07):
lifting these students up.
So, like I said, we tried to doa similar tactic in California,
where we can readily recognizethese institutions.
Just going back to your earlierpoint, all of this data comes
from the US Department ofEducation.
So the cost that students payit's reported by institutions
themselves.
The earnings data it comes fromactual tax records.
(16:30):
It's administrative records.
So it's oftentimes seen as thegold standard of earnings data
because it's what people areactually making every single
year.
But we were able to look at 82four-year institutions across
California and in total theyenroll nearly 800,000
undergraduate students per year.
(16:51):
So that was kind of the scopeof this study, which, in a state
of California, we're able tohave a rather large sample.
So that's what we were lookingat this time around.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Let's contrast those top schools with some of the
schools in California which mostpeople typically think of as
high ranking.
So you have in Californiaplaces like Stanford or Santa
Clara University which are greatschools.
Don't get me wrong.
I think they're excellentschools.
They produce a great value forthe state of California but they
(17:23):
didn't rank very high in thisindex.
Why does a school like Stanfordor Santa Clara not rank as high
as it normally would in some ofthe other ranking systems?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Well, the first thing that we looked at, to your
point, was the ROI that low andmoderate income students get at
each and every one of thesefour-year institutions.
So, as some folks probably know, stanford has an amazing
program for the low and moderateincome students who get
accepted and eventually enroll.
Their tuition is essentiallypaid for.
(17:57):
Accepted and eventually enroll.
Their tuition is essentiallypaid for.
The cost out of profit isalmost non-existent.
So they're going to have one ofthe best ROIs.
In fact, in our research, theyhave the best ROI.
It hardly costs anything to gofor these students whose
families are between $0 and$75,000.
And the students are makingover $100,000 within 10 years of
entering the institution.
(18:18):
So we recognize that and webasically give them 100%
recognition.
They are on top of the list.
Now, that being said, we wereinterested in which institutions
actually provide the besteconomic mobility.
Now, for these few unfortunatestudents, there's 19% of low and
moderate income students whoattend Stanford, as an example
these few unfortunate students,there's 19% of low and moderate
income students who attendStanford, as an example.
(18:41):
So, for those 19% of students,they're going to have the best
ROI, but the actual scope oftheir ability to offer economic
mobility is extremely limited.
Now they could do this, butwhat they're doing with the
current students who enroll,it's just a very limited scope.
So we take those two thingsinto account and when you look
(19:02):
at, we're giving them thehighest rating for ROI.
But then we have to take intoaccount just the scope of the
students they're serving andthey go from number one in terms
of ROI to, I believe, in the30s, so they're kind of middle
tier in terms of just pureeconomic mobility that they're
providing within this study.
And we've seen that throughother similar types of
(19:23):
institutions great ROI, amazingprograms for low and moderate
income students who enroll, butthere's just not very many that
go there.
So the actual scope and abilityof them to provide this with
the limited students thatthey're offering this to is just
lower than other institutions.
And it's recognized through ourrankings.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So, as you said, stanford does a tremendous job
for the students that enrollthere and it creates great
opportunities, but it's such alow concentration of the overall
population of California, sucha low concentration, especially
for low-income andmoderate-income learners in
California, that, in our view,doesn't have the same economic
(20:10):
impact for the state ofCalifornia as the top performer
in this index, california StateUniversity, los Angeles, a
campus that enrolls a largeproportion matter of fact,
majority of low and moderateincome learners and is much more
accessible.
So, in my view, what CollegeFutures is trying to communicate
(20:33):
here from a public policyperspective?
From a public policyperspective, what are the
institutions, which are theinstitutions that are creating
the greatest economic value forthe state of California because
of the way that they're servinga broad swath of Californians?
Asking, particularly in anenvironment like today, when
(20:57):
we're talking about this everyday, efficiency in government.
Where do taxpayer dollars go?
How do we get the most out ofour taxpayer dollar?
Well, in a state likeCalifornia and my guess is in
all 50 states ensuring thatmoney goes to places that create
the greatest economic value fora state and create greatest
(21:21):
economic mobility for low andmoderate income Americans, I
think is a great use of taxpayerfunds.
Now let's talk a little bitabout who's at the bottom of
this list, and the one thingthat surprised me about this is
almost every public institutionin the Cal State system, in the
(21:42):
UC system and, by the way, thereare a couple of UC campuses in
the top 20.
You have places like UC Merced,who just became an R1
institution and is serving apopulation there in the Central
Valley, creating great economicmobility.
You have an institution like UCIrvine, uc Riverside and UC San
(22:06):
Diego is in that mix as well.
So all these publicinstitutions in combination with
the CSU campus are creatinggreat value.
What I notice is At the verybottom of the public list was a
campus in San Luis Obispo, calState University, san Luis
(22:27):
Obispo, and that surprised me.
It surprised me because oneit's a Cal State and that it is
at the bottom of the list of allthe publics surprised me,
surprised me.
So why would a public campuslike Cal State, san Luis Obispo
(22:48):
rank so low in comparison to theother public institutions?
Michael, based on your analysis, there's a couple different
reasons.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
You know, we do see a lot of the Cal States being
extremely affordable for folkswho enroll, especially low and
moderate income students, andthere's a number of different
programs throughout Californiathat support these students and
enable them to ultimately enrollin these institutions.
So it can be low risk in thatway, but to the point you have
(23:15):
to be able to earn enough to beable to ultimately pay down your
educational costs.
So, looking at these two thingstogether, we looked at every
kind of institution.
You could be a for-profitinstitution, you could be a
private, non-profit institutionor a public institution.
We didn't have any bias wherewe're trying to weigh the list
(23:36):
one way or the other, but you doget certain instances where
schools that don't fit yourtypical trend or mold either end
up at the bottom or the top ofthe list.
There are trends to your point.
Like we noticed, a lot ofprivate nonprofits were also
overpopulated, the schools thatdid not offer a lot of economic
(23:57):
mobility.
One of the things that stood outfor me was just the overall
cost.
It can be 10 times, if not 20times, more expensive for these
low and moderate income studentsin comparison to a lot of
schools that were shown toprovide the greatest economic
mobility.
I mean, I noticed that a lot ofthese schools were smaller.
Number one they don't servethat many students, which I
(24:20):
guess it's good that the onesthat are providing the most
economic mobility are actuallyenrolling the most number of
students to begin with.
But these institutions there'sa lot of them that are over
$100,000, if not evensignificantly more than that for
these students to obtain afour-year degree.
So just to think about astudent whose family makes
(24:41):
between $0 and $75,000 and tellthem that they have to then fork
up over $100,000 over afour-year period, it's going to
be very difficult for them toclimb their way up that mountain
, even after they've gottentheir degree and entered the
workforce.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
You highlight something that we're also hoping
happens with this data, andthat is more and better
information to the consumer,people making choices,
particularly low and moderateincome learners, first
generation learners, who don'thave all the information that
most consumers in highereducation have, helping them
(25:20):
make better decisions, or atleast better informed decisions.
Certainly, if my child got anopportunity to go to Stanford
for a free ride, of course Imean, that'd be a great
opportunity for them, butthere's also lots of nonprofit
and for-profit institutionsadvertising to these same
(25:40):
learners and helping them betterunderstand the choices that
they're making.
I think, looking at the list andI'm not going to go into any
great depth, but if viewers herelook at that index and they
look at the bottom of that index, they can see institutions that
do market to a lot oflow-income learners.
I know several institutionshere in Southern California that
(26:03):
market to people who want to bein the entertainment industry
or people who want to be inother types of industries, and
they're at the bottom of thatlist because one, in many cases
they haven't kept those promisesthe ROI hasn't been there and
two, they're not serving thoselow and moderate income students
(26:23):
well.
So that's our other hope isthat this data provides
consumers a better opportunityto view these institutions and
the choices they're makingthrough a different lens.
Now, this data that you'reusing to create the index, it's
being made available publicly.
(26:45):
What are some of the other usesthat you can think of that
people in California might beable to use this data for?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, so to your point, like we have a website
that we can direct folks throughthrough the comments section
where we're publishing all ofthis information.
Like we've done with all of ourother Golden Opportunities
reports, we are making this datapublicly accessible and
available to folks.
We don't think it's any goodsitting on our hard drives.
(27:14):
We want institutions, familiesand learners to have access to
this.
And I think, going back to yourprevious point, like this isn't
the end of the college searchfor consumers, but maybe it can
inform the beginning right, likeit's a great opportunity to
maybe add additional optionsthat you hadn't previously
(27:37):
considered.
There are so many good optionsthat are not on my TV.
They don't have the advertisingbudget as a lot of these less
good options, but they're greatoptions.
So we're hoping to encouragefolks to readily consider those
as additional places that mightbe an amazing fit for them, and
what we're seeing through thedata is it's an amazing fit for
(28:00):
so many learners.
To your other point, it's agood opportunity to maybe cross
some more risky options off ofyour list.
So a lot of times we go tocollege because it's close we go
to the closest place oroftentimes it's because a family
member went there.
We don't know why.
You know it's just.
It's just our natural instinct.
(28:21):
We know someone that went there, or it's within 50 miles of our
house, and that's totallyreasonable in terms of how we
make decisions and we just needto understand that.
But there may be other goodoptions that you're not
regularly considering.
So we're hoping that folksbegin to think about that.
The other thing is just youmentioned the advertisements.
(28:43):
The other thing is just youmentioned the advertisements and
it's oftentimes institutionsthat aren't necessarily the
highest performers that appearto have the highest advertising
budgets.
If you watched the Super Bowlrecently, you may have seen, you
probably saw a few of them, andif you're in higher ed, you
probably notice them all overthe place.
So I hope that we're able tomore readily recognize these
institutions that don't have thebiggest advertising budgets,
(29:05):
but for them to enablethemselves to say look how well
we perform, here is what we did,here is what we're doing in
terms of the scale of economicmobility that we're providing
students, and we also hope thatinstitutions can learn from each
other, that policymakers canlearn from institutions, and
that we may find some scalablepractices to be more effective
(29:30):
and efficient and remaincompetitive within the US and
global community.
A lot of jobs are going torequire post-secondary education
throughout the next 10 yearsover 70% across the United
States.
There's a very broad anddiverse group of people who live
in California and we need togive each and every one of them
(29:52):
options to succeed, and everyinstitution of higher education
needs to step up to the plate,learn from each other, work on
continuous improvement effortsand continue to do so.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I agree that many more institutions need to step
up to the plate.
So, Michael, let me ask you onelast question as we begin to
wrap up.
This is a pass at the four-yearinstitutions here in California
.
The index just focuses onpublic, private, nonprofit
institutions that serveindividuals going for a
(30:23):
four-year degree.
What will the next iterationlook like as you look at the
two-year institutions?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, so we took a stab at four-year institution.
This is what folks normallythink of when they think of
college rankings, but we alsoknow that the traditional
student of yesterday, the18-year-old going to college, is
not necessarily yourtraditional student of today.
They might be older, they mightbe returning students.
There are a lot of folks whostarted but never finished
(30:53):
college and what we've seenthrough our research is that
associates degree-grantinginstitutions can often provide
an extremely quick ROI can oftenprovide an extremely quick ROI.
So we think it's criticalwithin the state of California
to look at these institutionsless than four-year institutions
, community colleges and such tothink about.
(31:14):
Where are these institutionsthat are punching above their
weight, providing students withthe best bang for their
educational buck and providingthem opportunity to enter and
thrive in today's workforce?
So we're going to be looking attwo-year institutions across
California within the comingmonths and we hope to have the
next iteration of this availablein the spring.
(31:36):
So keep an eye out for that.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, we certainly will, and maybe we'll have you
back on to talk about that nextset of data.
So, michael, appreciate you.
Coming back on to the podcast.
I know you've got a lot goingon in your world, so thank you
for being a guest here on theRant podcast.
Again, always, thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Eloy.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
All right, everybody.
You've been listening to myconversation with Michael
Iskowitz, president of the HEAGroup.
Hea group and College Futuresrecently launched the California
Mobility Index.
We will put a link on where tofind the California Mobility
Index in the description of thispodcast and, if you're watching
(32:15):
us here on YouTube, hitsubscribe, continue to follow us
on your YouTube channel and ifyou're listening to us on audio,
continue to follow us and findus on your favorite podcast
platforms.
Take care, everybody, and we'llbe back to you real soon.
Thank you.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant Podcast, the podcastwhere we pull back the curtain
and break down the people, thepolicies and the politics of our
higher education system.
In this episode, we continueour conversation about
navigating the landscape in thenew administration.
We're going to be talking aboutdata data that reflects how
(00:35):
much value colleges andinstitutions are creating for
states like California.
Recently, college FuturesFoundation and the HEA group,
led by Michael Litzkowitz,partnered again to launch what's
called the California MobilityIndex.
The California Mobility Indexcan be found on the College
(00:57):
Futures website atwwwcollegefuturesorg.
I'll put the link to the CMIthe California Mobility Index,
in the description of thispodcast.
The California Mobility Indexfocuses on institutions that are
creating the greatest value forlow and moderate income
students, and it begins theeffort to create a new way to
(01:20):
assess and to rank institutionsand to give more and better
information to consumers.
So I'm excited to have thisconversation with Michael
Itzkiewicz he's back for thethird time and we're going to be
talking about how the CMI theCalifornia Mobility Index better
reflects how institutions arecreating value for Californians
(01:43):
and how policymakers shouldthink about focusing time,
attention and resources on thoseinstitutions that create the
greatest lift for Californiansand create the greatest value
for the state of California.
And since we're talking thesedays about government efficiency
, this is an excellent way tobegin to get at where taxpayer
(02:06):
dollars are going and whothey're serving.
So with that backdrop, pleaseenjoy my conversation with
Michael Itzkiewicz.
President of the HEA Group.
Michael, welcome back to theRant Podcast.
Nice to see you, lillard.
Well, it's great to have youback, michael.
This is your third time.
You are now setting the recordfor the Rant podcast.
(02:31):
You are the only person that'scome back for the third time, so
we're happy to have you back.
And you're coming back becausewe have a lot going on.
We're going to be talking aboutsome new work that you've done
for College Futures, about somenew work that you've done for
College Futures.
But before we get into that,how are you doing and how are
(02:52):
you surviving the chaos of thebeginning of the year.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Well, you know, when you're going through something,
you try to focus on one day at atime.
So I constantly try to focus onthe next 24 hours, and the last
24 hours have been good.
I'm confident this 24 hourswill go well and I'm looking
forward to our upcoming release.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Well, so am I.
Let's talk about that release.
So College Futures hassponsored some additional work
with you and your colleagues atthe HEA group.
At the HEA group, this timeproducing what is called a
California Mobility Index.
(03:31):
The California Mobility Indexlooks at all of the four-year
institutions here in Californiaand essentially creates an index
based on your previous workthat looked at ROI and tries to
sort out which four-yearcolleges and universities in
California are doing the best inserving low to moderate income
(03:55):
learners.
Tell us about that work.
Tell us about the data set, howthat data came together.
Tell us a little bit about thework and then we'll get into
some of the findings.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Sure, well, it's the year 2025, as I remind myself,
and I'm getting older, so I'vebeen doing this work for quite a
while now, and when I waspreviously, at some point in my
life, the director of the USDepartment of Education's
college scorecard, which is thelargest education data set
(04:28):
within the United States and onething that we started.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
As of this recording, there was still a Department of
Education, correct?
As?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
of this.
Well, I haven't checked thismorning, but yeah, as of
yesterday, there is still a USDepartment of Education, there
is still higher education dataand we still have information on
outcomes.
And one thing that we startedto produce back in 2015, which
carried its way through the lastadministration and the
(04:57):
administration before that, wasearnings information how well
students are performing in termsof economics after they attend
an institution or complete acollege program.
So I started to really dig intothese numbers in 2019.
And I was running all this dataon how much our students are
(05:17):
earning.
It's the first time we've seenit.
And then I had this great idea.
I said it sarcastically maybe,but it's like okay, I have the
information on the medianstudent how well is the low
income student doing Right?
So I ran all this data and thenumbers popped up at that point
in time and I don't know who Iwas expecting, but it was
schools that had the best ROIfor low income students were
(05:41):
places like Harvard, yale,princeton and the University of
Chicago, and I thoughtcongratulations, michael, you
just recreated the US news allon your own computer.
But then there was a numbernext to them and it was the
percentage of low andmoderate-income students who
actually enroll at those schools.
So I started to reevaluatehigher education in general and
(06:04):
what we think we know in termsof what we're told year after
year through publication andpublication.
I was like what's really themeaning of higher education?
Is it to recognize the few andthe fortunate, or is it to
actually look at thoseinstitutions that readily enroll
a broad group of students, liftthem up and leave them better
off than the previous generation?
(06:24):
So we did similar work inCalifornia.
We looked at ROI for low andmoderate income students, and
California is a special andunique place, so it wasn't the
Harvard, yale and Princeton allacross the best ROI list, but
there were a couple ofinstitutions like that.
But we decided to take a deeperdive into California and say,
(06:44):
okay, what are theseinstitutions?
Where are the ones that areactually lifting students up the
socioeconomic ladder?
So that's what we've beenworking on over the past few
months now and what we haverecently released.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
As you mentioned, we're looking at how value is
created for low and moderateincome learners, and in the past
, we've relied primarily on aranking or a sorting system that
looks at the most selective or,as some refer to, the most
rejective colleges anduniversities in the country, and
(07:21):
those colleges and universitieswere rewarded for being more
selective and for having awealthier student body and
relying on the earnings of theiralumni.
In this ranking system and, asyou mentioned, most people know
that, as the US News and WorldReport ranking system, and
(07:41):
particularly in this environmentthat we're living in now,
people are asking a lot ofquestions about the value of
their higher education.
They're asking questions aboutthe cost.
What are they paying for?
What are they getting in return?
And, as you know, mostAmericans, most Californians,
receive their higher educationfrom broad access, primarily
(08:04):
public colleges and universitiesacross the country.
This is where most Americansattend college and where most
Americans have been expressingconcern, and so, in California,
the work that you've been doinghas really been highlighting
institutions that are creatingthe greatest lift or creating
(08:25):
the greatest value for low andmoderate income learners in
California, and the way that youcalculated it is you know those
institutions that enroll abroad base of low and moderate
income learners and we're justfocused on California right now
and because of cost, time todegree, other factors they're
(08:46):
able to pay back the cost ofthat education in a relatively
short time and so that createsthe ROI that you've reported on
in the past, the findings thatyou've highlighted in this
California Mobility Index.
Here are some of the highlightsand tell me what popped out at
(09:09):
you.
What popped out at me is 87% ofthe top institutions that
showed up in the index were fromthe California State University
system, and I have to prefacethis by saying and repeating
that this mobility index is onlylooking at four-year
institutions.
(09:29):
We will come back at a latertime, later in the spring, do a
report just on the two-yearinstitutions, but this is just
focused on the four-yearinstitutions.
So a large percentage of thetop institutions were from the
California State Universitysystem and, of course, as we
know, there are broad access,regional, public four-year
(09:51):
university system.
Here in California, 95% of thetop 20 institutions are public
institutions and 95% of the top20 are Hispanic-serving
institutions and 95% of the top20 are Hispanic-serving
institutions.
So, given all those elements,how do you explain some of these
results and what, if anything,surprised you?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The great thing about College Futures and the HEA
group is that we're not relianton selling ads, so we don't need
to tailor our outcomes basedoff of what folks reference
points are right.
What we think we want to seelooked at the outcomes and
(10:35):
inputs of these students,plugged it in and got the
results, some of which you justmentioned, and I think it's
incredible in terms of it's theinstitutions that are serving
just a broad group of students.
Obviously, we're looking at lowand moderate income students,
but you can also see a lot ofthese are Hispanic serving
institutions, like you said.
(10:56):
So they're serving just a bunchof different kinds of students,
offering them an affordableeducation and really offering
them a strong earnings premiumto where they're able to recoup
these costs, oftentimes withinone year.
They're able to earn enough tojust pay down or pay back these
costs within one year of leavingthe institution.
(11:16):
The other thing that stood outto me is these are oftentimes
bigger institutions just interms of the broadness of
students that they serve, thenumber of students that they
serve, in comparison to what wethink of what is the most
prestigious or best institutionwithin California.
So you know, it depends how youlook.
(11:37):
Everyone you know, if you ask acollege president which ranking
do you like the best, they'regoing to say whichever one makes
makes us the highest and that'stotally understandable.
But you know, we oftentimesfocus when we think about this.
It's it's we're focusing onthis small group of institutions
, you know, through ourtraditional news rankings that
serve less than 1% of thepopulation, news rankings that
(12:00):
serve less than 1% of thepopulation, for that 1% of the
population they can also offer agreat ROI.
And for institutions that servethat very small proportion of
low and moderate income studentsand do it extremely well, we
recognize them for doing sowithin our ranking system.
But in terms of just actuallyserving low and moderate income
Californians and giving them andthe ability to recognize the
(12:22):
dream of moving up thesocioeconomic ladder, it's these
bigger, broad basedinstitutions which maybe aren't
readily recognized intraditional news rankings, but
perhaps they should be and weshould also think about the
policy implications of whatthey're doing and what's worth
scaling and expanding theirreach throughout the state.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I agree this gives us a lot to focus on Now.
We all know that there remains alot of imperfections in our
public and private four-yearuniversity systems systems, but
this gives us an opportunity tostart to drive at policy
(13:04):
initiatives, incentives, fundingopportunities to reach those
institutions that are creatingthe greatest value for the
workforce.
Because, regardless of how youfeel about the words diversity,
equity and inclusion and I knowthat's become three bad words in
America these days but thepoint of the matter here is, in
a state like California, or evena state like Texas or Florida,
(13:25):
where you're at, or New York, orjust about anywhere in the
country, there is a growing,diverse workforce that needs to
be educated, the talent needs tobe extracted and connected to
the demand for labor to keep ourcountry and our states
(13:46):
economically viable, and this isalso a national security issue
to ensure that people of allbackgrounds have access to a
great education, particularlytoday, for me and for us at
College Futures, this is notabout a philosophical argument.
This is about an argument forgreater economic security for
(14:06):
more Americans.
And so these institutions a lotof them are Hispanic-serving
institutions, and so many ofthem exist in places in
California that serve a verydiverse population.
So, michael, in your data andyou look at this across states,
(14:28):
across the country are theresimilarities to what's going on
in other states, or are theresome things that surprise you,
that are different in Californiathan other states?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Or are there some things that surprise you that
are different in California thanother states.
When I did look at thisnationally a number of years
back in a different way, I thinkthat we've improved upon that
and thought about ways toiterate based off of that.
One thing that we did recognizeis yeah, there are a lot of
Hispanic serving institutions,or HSIs, that really rose to the
top of the list.
I think nationally, the top 10were actually HSIs.
(15:01):
I brought this information tomy friend you know, Deb Santiago
, who runs Excellencia.
They provide a seal ofexcellence to HSIs, I think
every year, and I showed her theinformation and she looked at
it and she said well, duh, likewe've known that for a very long
time, but now we have the datato back it up.
(15:23):
Right, you know.
So it definitely serves thatpurpose.
And nationally, something elsethat we saw is that these other
kinds of institutions across theUnited States that were never
to be seen on these traditionalnews rankings actually were
shown to perform better than theones that we normally think of.
So, just as an example,nationally, we can see that
(15:45):
seven HBCUs were actually in thetop 100.
Now, if you look at the US news, they're nowhere to be found.
Right, we don't even thinkabout them, or a lot of folks
don't think that they are atop-ranked institution, but
they've been doing the work foryears.
They enroll a broad group ofstudents, they allow them to
earn enough to pay down theireducational costs and they're
(16:07):
lifting these students up.
So, like I said, we tried to doa similar tactic in California,
where we can readily recognizethese institutions.
Just going back to your earlierpoint, all of this data comes
from the US Department ofEducation.
So the cost that students payit's reported by institutions
themselves.
The earnings data it comes fromactual tax records.
(16:30):
It's administrative records.
So it's oftentimes seen as thegold standard of earnings data
because it's what people areactually making every single
year.
But we were able to look at 82four-year institutions across
California and in total theyenroll nearly 800,000
undergraduate students per year.
(16:51):
So that was kind of the scopeof this study, which, in a state
of California, we're able tohave a rather large sample.
So that's what we were lookingat this time around.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Let's contrast those top schools with some of the
schools in California which mostpeople typically think of as
high ranking.
So you have in Californiaplaces like Stanford or Santa
Clara University which are greatschools.
Don't get me wrong.
I think they're excellentschools.
They produce a great value forthe state of California but they
(17:23):
didn't rank very high in thisindex.
Why does a school like Stanfordor Santa Clara not rank as high
as it normally would in some ofthe other ranking systems?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Well, the first thing that we looked at, to your
point, was the ROI that low andmoderate income students get at
each and every one of thesefour-year institutions.
So, as some folks probably know, stanford has an amazing
program for the low and moderateincome students who get
accepted and eventually enroll.
Their tuition is essentiallypaid for.
(17:57):
Accepted and eventually enroll.
Their tuition is essentiallypaid for.
The cost out of profit isalmost non-existent.
So they're going to have one ofthe best ROIs.
In fact, in our research, theyhave the best ROI.
It hardly costs anything to gofor these students whose
families are between $0 and$75,000.
And the students are makingover $100,000 within 10 years of
entering the institution.
(18:18):
So we recognize that and webasically give them 100%
recognition.
They are on top of the list.
Now, that being said, we wereinterested in which institutions
actually provide the besteconomic mobility.
Now, for these few unfortunatestudents, there's 19% of low and
moderate income students whoattend Stanford, as an example
these few unfortunate students,there's 19% of low and moderate
income students who attendStanford, as an example.
(18:41):
So, for those 19% of students,they're going to have the best
ROI, but the actual scope oftheir ability to offer economic
mobility is extremely limited.
Now they could do this, butwhat they're doing with the
current students who enroll,it's just a very limited scope.
So we take those two thingsinto account and when you look
(19:02):
at, we're giving them thehighest rating for ROI.
But then we have to take intoaccount just the scope of the
students they're serving andthey go from number one in terms
of ROI to, I believe, in the30s, so they're kind of middle
tier in terms of just pureeconomic mobility that they're
providing within this study.
And we've seen that throughother similar types of
(19:23):
institutions great ROI, amazingprograms for low and moderate
income students who enroll, butthere's just not very many that
go there.
So the actual scope and abilityof them to provide this with
the limited students thatthey're offering this to is just
lower than other institutions.
And it's recognized through ourrankings.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So, as you said, stanford does a tremendous job
for the students that enrollthere and it creates great
opportunities, but it's such alow concentration of the overall
population of California, sucha low concentration, especially
for low-income andmoderate-income learners in
California, that, in our view,doesn't have the same economic
(20:10):
impact for the state ofCalifornia as the top performer
in this index, california StateUniversity, los Angeles, a
campus that enrolls a largeproportion matter of fact,
majority of low and moderateincome learners and is much more
accessible.
So, in my view, what CollegeFutures is trying to communicate
(20:33):
here from a public policyperspective?
From a public policyperspective, what are the
institutions, which are theinstitutions that are creating
the greatest economic value forthe state of California because
of the way that they're servinga broad swath of Californians?
Asking, particularly in anenvironment like today, when
(20:57):
we're talking about this everyday, efficiency in government.
Where do taxpayer dollars go?
How do we get the most out ofour taxpayer dollar?
Well, in a state likeCalifornia and my guess is in
all 50 states ensuring thatmoney goes to places that create
the greatest economic value fora state and create greatest
(21:21):
economic mobility for low andmoderate income Americans, I
think is a great use of taxpayerfunds.
Now let's talk a little bitabout who's at the bottom of
this list, and the one thingthat surprised me about this is
almost every public institutionin the Cal State system, in the
(21:42):
UC system and, by the way, thereare a couple of UC campuses in
the top 20.
You have places like UC Merced,who just became an R1
institution and is serving apopulation there in the Central
Valley, creating great economicmobility.
You have an institution like UCIrvine, uc Riverside and UC San
(22:06):
Diego is in that mix as well.
So all these publicinstitutions in combination with
the CSU campus are creatinggreat value.
What I notice is At the verybottom of the public list was a
campus in San Luis Obispo, calState University, san Luis
(22:27):
Obispo, and that surprised me.
It surprised me because oneit's a Cal State and that it is
at the bottom of the list of allthe publics surprised me,
surprised me.
So why would a public campuslike Cal State, san Luis Obispo
(22:48):
rank so low in comparison to theother public institutions?
Michael, based on your analysis, there's a couple different
reasons.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
You know, we do see a lot of the Cal States being
extremely affordable for folkswho enroll, especially low and
moderate income students, andthere's a number of different
programs throughout Californiathat support these students and
enable them to ultimately enrollin these institutions.
So it can be low risk in thatway, but to the point you have
(23:15):
to be able to earn enough to beable to ultimately pay down your
educational costs.
So, looking at these two thingstogether, we looked at every
kind of institution.
You could be a for-profitinstitution, you could be a
private, non-profit institutionor a public institution.
We didn't have any bias wherewe're trying to weigh the list
(23:36):
one way or the other, but you doget certain instances where
schools that don't fit yourtypical trend or mold either end
up at the bottom or the top ofthe list.
There are trends to your point.
Like we noticed, a lot ofprivate nonprofits were also
overpopulated, the schools thatdid not offer a lot of economic
(23:57):
mobility.
One of the things that stood outfor me was just the overall
cost.
It can be 10 times, if not 20times, more expensive for these
low and moderate income studentsin comparison to a lot of
schools that were shown toprovide the greatest economic
mobility.
I mean, I noticed that a lot ofthese schools were smaller.
Number one they don't servethat many students, which I
(24:20):
guess it's good that the onesthat are providing the most
economic mobility are actuallyenrolling the most number of
students to begin with.
But these institutions there'sa lot of them that are over
$100,000, if not evensignificantly more than that for
these students to obtain afour-year degree.
So just to think about astudent whose family makes
(24:41):
between $0 and $75,000 and tellthem that they have to then fork
up over $100,000 over afour-year period, it's going to
be very difficult for them toclimb their way up that mountain
, even after they've gottentheir degree and entered the
workforce.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
You highlight something that we're also hoping
happens with this data, andthat is more and better
information to the consumer,people making choices,
particularly low and moderateincome learners, first
generation learners, who don'thave all the information that
most consumers in highereducation have, helping them
(25:20):
make better decisions, or atleast better informed decisions.
Certainly, if my child got anopportunity to go to Stanford
for a free ride, of course Imean, that'd be a great
opportunity for them, butthere's also lots of nonprofit
and for-profit institutionsadvertising to these same
(25:40):
learners and helping them betterunderstand the choices that
they're making.
I think, looking at the list andI'm not going to go into any
great depth, but if viewers herelook at that index and they
look at the bottom of that index, they can see institutions that
do market to a lot oflow-income learners.
I know several institutionshere in Southern California that
(26:03):
market to people who want to bein the entertainment industry
or people who want to be inother types of industries, and
they're at the bottom of thatlist because one, in many cases
they haven't kept those promisesthe ROI hasn't been there and
two, they're not serving thoselow and moderate income students
(26:23):
well.
So that's our other hope isthat this data provides
consumers a better opportunityto view these institutions and
the choices they're makingthrough a different lens.
Now, this data that you'reusing to create the index, it's
being made available publicly.
(26:45):
What are some of the other usesthat you can think of that
people in California might beable to use this data for?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, so to your point, like we have a website
that we can direct folks throughthrough the comments section
where we're publishing all ofthis information.
Like we've done with all of ourother Golden Opportunities
reports, we are making this datapublicly accessible and
available to folks.
We don't think it's any goodsitting on our hard drives.
(27:14):
We want institutions, familiesand learners to have access to
this.
And I think, going back to yourprevious point, like this isn't
the end of the college searchfor consumers, but maybe it can
inform the beginning right, likeit's a great opportunity to
maybe add additional optionsthat you hadn't previously
(27:37):
considered.
There are so many good optionsthat are not on my TV.
They don't have the advertisingbudget as a lot of these less
good options, but they're greatoptions.
So we're hoping to encouragefolks to readily consider those
as additional places that mightbe an amazing fit for them, and
what we're seeing through thedata is it's an amazing fit for
(28:00):
so many learners.
To your other point, it's agood opportunity to maybe cross
some more risky options off ofyour list.
So a lot of times we go tocollege because it's close we go
to the closest place oroftentimes it's because a family
member went there.
We don't know why.
You know it's just.
It's just our natural instinct.
(28:21):
We know someone that went there, or it's within 50 miles of our
house, and that's totallyreasonable in terms of how we
make decisions and we just needto understand that.
But there may be other goodoptions that you're not
regularly considering.
So we're hoping that folksbegin to think about that.
The other thing is just youmentioned the advertisements.
(28:43):
The other thing is just youmentioned the advertisements and
it's oftentimes institutionsthat aren't necessarily the
highest performers that appearto have the highest advertising
budgets.
If you watched the Super Bowlrecently, you may have seen, you
probably saw a few of them, andif you're in higher ed, you
probably notice them all overthe place.
So I hope that we're able tomore readily recognize these
institutions that don't have thebiggest advertising budgets,
(29:05):
but for them to enablethemselves to say look how well
we perform, here is what we did,here is what we're doing in
terms of the scale of economicmobility that we're providing
students, and we also hope thatinstitutions can learn from each
other, that policymakers canlearn from institutions, and
that we may find some scalablepractices to be more effective
(29:30):
and efficient and remaincompetitive within the US and
global community.
A lot of jobs are going torequire post-secondary education
throughout the next 10 yearsover 70% across the United
States.
There's a very broad anddiverse group of people who live
in California and we need togive each and every one of them
(29:52):
options to succeed, and everyinstitution of higher education
needs to step up to the plate,learn from each other, work on
continuous improvement effortsand continue to do so.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I agree that many more institutions need to step
up to the plate.
So, Michael, let me ask you onelast question as we begin to
wrap up.
This is a pass at the four-yearinstitutions here in California
.
The index just focuses onpublic, private, nonprofit
institutions that serveindividuals going for a
(30:23):
four-year degree.
What will the next iterationlook like as you look at the
two-year institutions?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, so we took a stab at four-year institution.
This is what folks normallythink of when they think of
college rankings, but we alsoknow that the traditional
student of yesterday, the18-year-old going to college, is
not necessarily yourtraditional student of today.
They might be older, they mightbe returning students.
There are a lot of folks whostarted but never finished
(30:53):
college and what we've seenthrough our research is that
associates degree-grantinginstitutions can often provide
an extremely quick ROI can oftenprovide an extremely quick ROI.
So we think it's criticalwithin the state of California
to look at these institutionsless than four-year institutions
, community colleges and such tothink about.
(31:14):
Where are these institutionsthat are punching above their
weight, providing students withthe best bang for their
educational buck and providingthem opportunity to enter and
thrive in today's workforce?
So we're going to be looking attwo-year institutions across
California within the comingmonths and we hope to have the
next iteration of this availablein the spring.
(31:36):
So keep an eye out for that.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, we certainly will, and maybe we'll have you
back on to talk about that nextset of data.
So, michael, appreciate you.
Coming back on to the podcast.
I know you've got a lot goingon in your world, so thank you
for being a guest here on theRant podcast.
Again, always, thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Eloy.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
All right, everybody.
You've been listening to myconversation with Michael
Iskowitz, president of the HEAGroup.
Hea group and College Futuresrecently launched the California
Mobility Index.
We will put a link on where tofind the California Mobility
Index in the description of thispodcast and, if you're watching
(32:15):
us here on YouTube, hitsubscribe, continue to follow us
on your YouTube channel and ifyou're listening to us on audio,
continue to follow us and findus on your favorite podcast
platforms.
Take care, everybody, and we'llbe back to you real soon.
Thank you.
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