April 29, 2025 • 33 mins
When higher education comes under attack, who stands up to defend its core mission? In this compelling conversation, Chancellor John King of the State University of New York brings his unique perspective as a former high school teacher, Secretary of Education under President Obama, and leader of a major education advocacy organization to address the most pressing challenges facing American universities today. Chancellor King doesn't mince words as he articulates how SUNY maintains its commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion despite political headwinds: "For us, diversity, equity, inclusion is in our DNA." He shares concrete examples of how SUNY serves 370,000 degree-seeking students while ensuring campuses remain places of belonging for everyone, regardless of background. The conversation takes a sobering turn when discussing research funding cuts threatened by the current administration. "It's a disaster for the country," King explains, detailing how the proposed $79 million reduction in NIH funding alone would devastate critical research on cancer treatments, Alzheimer's, and 9/11 first responder care. "Our international competitors are laughing at us," he notes, calling this a "willful dismantling of our competitive advantage. "Drawing on his experience as Education Secretary, King provides a masterful breakdown of the Department of Education's four essential functions – from supporting vulnerable students to protecting civil rights – and why dismantling it would harm America's future. He outlines potential areas for bipartisan progress, including thoughtfully designed short-term credential programs and renewed investment in research that could usher in "a golden age" of scientific advancement. For anyone concerned about the future of American higher education, this conversation reveals both the gravity of current threats and a path forward rooted in demonstrating value and serving communities. As Chancellor King advises emerging leaders, we must be "obsessed with demonstrating value" – both economic and civic – while building strong peer networks to navigate these challenging times.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant Podcast, the podcastwhere we pull back the curtain
and break down the people, thepolicies and the politics of a
higher education system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with a friend and colleague
, the Chancellor of the StateUniversity of New York, john
(00:32):
King.
John has had a tremendouscareer service, beginning as a
high school educator, spendingtime leading the education
system in New York.
He was the Secretary ofEducation under President Barack
Obama and also led one of thenation's top education advocacy
groups, the Ed Trust.
Now, as the Chancellor of theState University of New York, he
(00:53):
leads one of the most diverseand one of the largest public
university and community collegesystems in the nation and one
of the cornerstones of NewYork's higher education system.
We talk about what's going onin the State University of New
York, how he's dealing with thechanges that this current
administration is handing downto universities across the
(01:15):
country, the challenges with thepullback in research funding,
as well as the politics ofWashington DC and the Department
of Education.
John has some unique insightsand I know you'll enjoy my
conversation with him.
But before we get into all that, let me just take a moment to
reflect on some of the issuesthat have come up since our last
(01:36):
podcast.
I recently had a chance to joinJohn at the ASU GSV Summit and,
as usual, it was an amazingevent Lots of people, lots of
new technologies, but, of course, the main show was all of the
AI on display, all of the newtechnology focused on artificial
(01:59):
intelligence and how it'spowering a new, more
personalized education system.
There was a lot of greatinnovations that were on display
and we'll see where this allleads, but AI was certainly at
the top of the ticket.
At the ASU GSV Summit, we alsohad a visit from Secretary of
Education Linda McMahon.
(02:19):
In addition to some of theother things that you may have
heard about that she said at theSUGSV Summit, she focused on
workforce and career readiness.
This is going to be a focalpoint of her administration.
You've already seen some ofthis action things like
short-term Pell, improved accessto career pathways, focuses on
(02:44):
apprenticeships.
All these issues are going tobe front and center under her
leadership, which is welcomenews to many of us, and I
suppose, since it did come fromher, sounds like there will be a
role for the Department ofEducation.
We'll see.
In any case, a lot continues totranspire.
There was the attack on HarvardUniversity with regard to the
(03:09):
pushback on the Trumpadministration's demands and of
course that prompted the Trumpadministration to put a jeopardy
Harvard's nonprofit status.
This plays out there's alreadysome pullback from the Trump
administration.
But I will say this I'm usuallynot in a position to give
Harvard University or most ofthe IREs any credit, but I will
(03:38):
give credit where credit is due.
I appreciate the leadership ofHarvard standing up and pushing
back on the ridiculous demandsof the administration that would
have undermined their academicfreedom.
That would have underminedtheir ability to be a top
university in this country.
So kudos to Harvard University.
I hope that this is centered ina real learner-centered
approach, but for now, thank you, harvard, for standing up to
(04:02):
this administration on behalf ofall of us in higher education.
So with that backdrop, let meturn it over to my conversation
with the Chancellor of the StateUniversity of New York, john
King.
Chancellor King, welcome to theRENT Podcast.
Thanks so much.
Excited to be here.
It's great to see you, john.
Thank you for taking time outof your busy schedule there at
(04:25):
the State University of New York.
Let's jump into what's going onthese days, and I know that
things are moving quickly.
So by the time that thispodcast airs, who knows what
will be going on?
But let's just focus on what weknow now.
So let's start with how you andyour SUNY team are responding
(04:47):
to some of the challenges thathave been coming out of this new
administration.
A new administration and let'sstart with the great work that
you and the SUNY team have donebuilding a university that's
diverse, that focuses on equityand that's inclusive of the
various backgrounds that make upthe state of New York.
(05:11):
How are you thinking aboutresponding to some of the
attacks, not just from theadministration but from various
groups throughout the country,on the importance of
universities being diverse andequitable and inclusive?
How are you and your teamthinking about pushing back on
(05:31):
some of those narratives?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
You know, for us diversity, equity, inclusion is
in our DNA.
We were founded more than 75years ago with a clear charge
from the legislature to ensurethe broadest possible access and
to serve all segments of NewYork, and so we're undeterred
(05:55):
about those values becausethey're core to who we are.
And so that means we have chiefdiversity officers on our
campuses whose work is to helpensure that campuses are places
of belonging for all students,and that's students of color,
but it's also LGBTQ students,students with disabilities,
veterans.
We have LGBTQ students,students with disabilities,
veterans.
We have a diversity equityinclusion course requirement, so
(06:20):
every undergraduate, beforethey leave SUNY, has to take a
course that deals with themes ofdiversity equity inclusion.
That could be a business studentlearning about the racial
wealth gap.
It could be a nursing studentlearning about maternal health
disparities based on race, butwe think that's important for
preparing folks for civic lifeand we're going to continue to
(06:43):
that work.
We certainly are eager to makesure that we are serving a
diverse student population thatreflects all aspects of New York
State.
You know we are clear since theSFFA decision that we cannot
use race in admission.
We understand that, but webelieve that we can build a
class that represents New York,by looking at factors like
(07:07):
low-income status, first-genstatus, adversity students have
overcome in their school orcommunity.
We prioritize recruitingveterans and AmeriCorps alumni.
So for us, our values areunchanged and I personally,
having started my career as ahigh school social studies
teacher, I'm always going totalk about the importance of
(07:28):
teaching the truth of ourhistory, even the uncomfortable
truths of our history.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, it amazes me when people talk about some of
these discussions beingun-American.
I can't think of anything moreAmerican than digging into what
made us who we are today andlooking at some of the
challenges that we've faced.
How do we improve society goingforward and how do we make
(07:57):
America stronger?
Because, regardless of whatpeople feel today, america was
founded on immigrants Immigrantsinteracting with indigenous
people, trying to build a nationthat we have today.
So learning more about who weare, I think, only makes us
stronger going forward.
(08:17):
So that's always confusing tome.
It doesn't make us lessAmerican.
I think it makes us moreAmerican.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
That's exactly right.
You're exactly right.
And look, I think it'sdangerous to have this effort to
hide or distort our history asa country.
It's going to result instudents who are less prepared
to move the country forward,right.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm glad that you're willing to talk about the
mission of SUNY this way,because it was created to serve
the state of New York, thepeople of the state of New York.
The people of the state of NewYork and the people of the state
of New York are diverse.
They come from all sorts ofbackgrounds ethnic, racial,
religious, cultural.
That's what makes New York NewYork, and a state university
(09:09):
system that's dedicated toserving all the people of New
York can only make the state ofNew York stronger and more
resilient and have an economythat, hopefully, is inclusive of
everyone, regardless of thatbackground.
I think that's great for NewYork and that's great for the
country, in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Absolutely, and I'm grateful to have Governor Hochul
and our Attorney General TishJames, real champions of those
values who are ready to stand upto defend them.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Now, within all the chaos and consternation over DEI
and how do we serve, and as wethink about free speech and
anti-Semitism and all the thingsthat are in sort of this stew
of what's going on today, Ithink there is some truth that
we have lost some confidencefrom the public Us as educators,
(10:03):
particularly in highereducation.
We've sort of lost a highground on value and containing
costs.
How do you deal with some ofthose challenges that truly need
to be addressed within auniversity like SUNY, while not
appearing to be caving to someof the criticism that you're
(10:24):
getting?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
That's a great question.
Look, we try to be very clearabout who we are and what we do.
You know we serve 370,000students in degree programs.
370,000 students in degreeprograms.
We see about 1.3 millionstudents a year when you include
our non-credit workforcedevelopment programs.
So we are serving folks inevery part of the state.
(10:47):
95% of New Yorkers live within30 miles of a SUNY campus.
We are contributing to upwardmobility in the state.
About one in three collegealums in New York State is a
SUNY alum.
So we are helping prepare theworkforce.
Whether you're talking abouthealthcare or the semiconductor
(11:07):
industry or cutting edge fieldslike artificial intelligence,
the path is through SUNY.
We also are very affordable.
New York, like California, hasmaintained a real commitment to
public higher education overtime.
The tuition at our four-yearinstitutions $7,070 for the year
(11:28):
is willing to invest.
52% of our students across ourtwo and four-year institutions
go tuition-free because of theFederal Pell Grant Program and
the New York State TuitionAssistance Program, and we are
helping students move from oftendifficult backgrounds to lives
(11:54):
of opportunity right.
A good number of our studentsare first in their family to go
to college.
They're from immigrant families, they're from families that are
struggling economically andthey're accessing the American
dream.
We also serve a tremendousnumber of middle-income students
and more affluent students whorepresent, again, every aspect
(12:14):
of New York.
So folks need to know who we areand I think it's important for
higher ed to stand up and talkabout the reality of what we do.
And we've also been very clearwe're not going to have any
tolerance for antisemitism onour campuses.
We've done Title VI training tomake sure that folks, all of
(12:35):
our staff, all of our faculty,have gone through that Title VI
training.
We want folks to understand thecivil rights importance of
protecting students againstdiscrimination, whether it's on
the basis of religion or race.
But at the end of the day,we're doing the thing public
higher ed was meant to do atSUNY and I think the higher ed
(12:56):
sector has been too much back onour heels and too much allowing
some real errors in judgment.
I think at some of the verywell-resourced elite
institutions, some of the IBs,allowing some of their mistakes
to be used to justify anindictment of the entire higher
(13:17):
ed sector.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I couldn't agree more .
I think there's been aninstitution there in New York
that's been very prominentlately and I think a lot of us
are wondering how they got wherethey are and whether or not
they've made the right decisionsgoing forward.
But hopefully, hopefully, forthe sake of their students they
have.
So let's talk more about SUNY.
(13:39):
And for those who don't knowSUNY very well, you have both
four-year institutions.
You have two-year communitycollege institutions working
together.
You have research functions,you have medical functions.
So the recent pullback, or therecent threats of pulling back,
(13:59):
research funding, particularlyNIH funding and other federal
funding that goes to support theresearch functions at
universities like the ones youhave, that go to produce very
important research that leads toinnovations, that leads to new
technologies, that leads to morejobs in states like New York
how are you bracing for andpreparing for some of those cuts
(14:23):
in funding?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Look, I think the administration's attack on
research is a disaster for thecountry.
It's bad for the economy, it'sbad for national security, bad
(14:55):
for the economy, it's bad fornational1.2 billion a year in
sponsored research, largelyconcentrated at our major
research universities StonyBrook, university of Buffalo,
university of Albany andBinghamton, as well as our
academic medical centers.
The NIH cuts for us would havemeant losing about $79 million.
(15:21):
But what's important is it'snot money loss just to the
institution, it's money loss tothe research, and I'm talking
about research on treatments forAlzheimer's, treatments for
cancer.
We have an NIH project thatStony Brook focused on 9-11
first responders and theirtreatment as they deal with
(15:42):
illnesses connected to havingbeen at ground zero.
So when you walk away from thatresearch, you are harming New
Yorkers and you're harming thehealth and well-being of the
country.
So I'm glad that the courtshave stepped in.
The courts have also stepped into protect teacher preparation
grant programs that we have atthe University of Buffalo.
(16:03):
I'm hopeful that Congress willcontinue to stand up for
research.
You know, on the first Trumpterm he proposed in every budget
huge cuts to federal researchspending.
But federal research spendingwent up over his first term and
that's because Congress, in abipartisan way, stood up for
their constituents, and so thequestion is will they do that
(16:26):
now?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Well, that's money that goes to the economies of
their districts.
That's money that goes to feedtechnology, to feed jobs, to
create economic development intheir districts.
So it's just amazing to me thatthere hasn't been more of a
fight in Congress.
But we'll see.
We'll see how it all shakes out.
I was talking with the formerpresident of University of
(16:49):
California, janet Napolitano,recently.
I also was on a call withMichael Drake, who is now the
president of University ofCalifornia.
I also was on a call withMichael Drake, who is now the
president of the University ofCalifornia, and just listening
to them talk about the impact ofresearch at a place like the UC
, which is huge.
It has a tremendous impact onnot just the state of California
but the entire world in theresearch that they do.
(17:10):
But you have graduate studentsnow questioning whether they
should go into the researchfields, not knowing whether
there's going to be jobs.
You have a hiring freeze in theUniversity of California which
just went into effect.
This is having a chillingeffect on the entire research
community.
And so, while we brag about andeven the president brags about
(17:34):
us being, you know, at the topof the list in research, having
a lead in AI, all that is goingto go to waste and we're going
to fall back tremendouslybecause of this lack of capacity
for doing the research thatfuels our technology prominence
in the world.
So we'll see how it all shakesout, but I'm a little bit
(17:56):
concerned about what this isgoing to mean downstream.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Definitely, look at our international competitors,
whether it's economiccompetitors or the competitors
for influence around the world.
They're laughing at us, right?
They see this as the UnitedStates unilaterally giving up
its incredible advantage in theinnovation economy.
(18:21):
It's crazy, to be honest, tohave this kind of willful
dismantling of our competitiveadvantage.
If we're worried about keepingup with China in areas like
semiconductors or artificialintelligence, the thing that
(18:42):
would most undermine our abilityto keep up with them is
dismantling the researchfunction in our university.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And I'm sure the people who would just assume
that you and I are having a wokeconversation.
But this is an economicconversation.
This is a national securityconversation.
That has nothing to do withwokeness.
This has everything to do withthe health of our economies and
our position in the globe.
To my colleagues who mayconsider this a woke
(19:14):
conversation, I'd say take alook at the economic impact that
some of these cuts are going tohave and then come back and
talk to me.
So, john, let's talk about someof your experiences and how they
center you in terms of what'sgoing on in the country these
days.
You've had a unique set ofexperiences as an educator.
(19:36):
You mentioned spending time inhigh schools.
You have been the Secretary ofEducation under President Obama,
so you have a little bit ofknowledge of the Department of
Education.
You've led a major advocacyorganization at the Ed Trust,
and now you lead one of thenation's largest public higher
(19:57):
education systems in SUNY.
So, given all of thisexperience and the recent news
about the administration's plansto dismantle the Department of
Education, what's your advice toSecretary McMahon and how would
you argue for the slowing downand the rethinking of a plan to
(20:21):
dismantle the Department ofEducation?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, look, I think she needs to demonstrate some
real moral courage here and it'snever easy to tell your boss
that their idea is terrible butshe ought to go to the president
and Elon Musk and tell them tostop because what they're doing
(20:45):
is so harmful to the well-beingof students and families.
I'll tell you why.
The education department reallyhas four main functions.
The Education Department reallyhas four main functions.
One, sending resources to helpvulnerable students.
The Title I program that helpsstudents in low-income schools.
The Individuals withDisabilities Education Act
(21:06):
funding that helps provideservices for students with
disabilities.
Undermining those activitieswill make America weaker.
It will make our students lesssuccessful.
Second major function is PellGrants that help low-income
students access higher educationand the student loan system
(21:28):
that makes higher educationpossible for low and
middle-income Americans.
Without those systemsfunctioning well, we undermine
the future health of our economy.
If we need nurses, if we needtechnicians on the floor of the
advanced manufacturing site, ifwe need computer scientists, if
(21:49):
we need architects and engineers, we need folks to be able to go
to college and if we dismantlethose systems that make college
possible, we harm our future.
Third function is civil rightsprotection, and that's crucial.
I always point out to folks.
(22:11):
You look at that famous NormanRockwell painting of Ruby
Bridges integrating schools inNew Orleans.
You see little Ruby Bridges inthe center, but she is escorted
by federal marshals because thestate and district did not want
to provide her with opportunity.
And, sally, that is still truein many places.
States and districts, for avariety of reasons, are not
(22:33):
delivering fairness.
They are not providing studentswith what they need because of
race or religion or gender, andso the department needs to be
able to step in.
You can't walk away from that.
And then the last function isaround data and research and
transparency.
How will we know where we'redoing well and where we're
(22:56):
struggling if we don't have data?
How will we be able tounderstand what's necessary to
help students succeed if wearen't doing research?
So I would hope that SecretaryMcMahon would have the personal
fortitude to have the hardconversation with folks and say
(23:18):
you know now that I betterunderstand what actually happens
at the department.
This mindless dismantling iswrong for the country.
Now I'm not very optimisticthat that'll happen, but that's
what should happen, right.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, we'll see how it all shakes out.
I do hold out some hope thatthe Secretary will see enhancing
some of the value that comesout of the Department of
Education, but we'll see.
On solutions for Congress andfor the administration.
(23:57):
You and I both participate withanother former Secretary of
Education, margaret Spelling, onthe Bipartisan Policy Center's
Commission on the AmericanWorkforce.
So I think that many of us seesome opportunities here.
I mean, given the focus onworking class Americans and
(24:18):
giving them better opportunitiesin the economy that's being
created by AI, going forward,seizing the opportunity to focus
on improving the connectionbetween education and employment
all those things that arefrustrating people in America
about our post-secondary systemand being more transparent and
(24:39):
creating more value for learnersand their families.
So what are some of theopportunities that you see,
given all the challenges thatwe're facing?
Speaker 3 (24:50):
A couple of things come immediately to mind.
I think we could be doing moreto provide folks with access to
short-term programs that lead togood economic opportunities for
them.
There's been a bipartisanconversation about short-term
Pell, allowing students in thoseshorter-term programs to access
Pell Grants to pay for them.
(25:11):
That could be a good thing ifthe guardrails are right, if the
programs are well-designed inpartnership with employers, if
there's real accountability,that the programs lead to actual
earnings improvement for theparticipants and can translate
over the long-term into creditsand an entry point to a higher
(25:34):
education degree the rightguardrails that could be a real
winning bipartisan policyinnovation Another area is
actually doing the opposite ofwhat the administration has
signaled so far and doublingdown on research.
We actually could be at the veryedge of a golden age in
(25:57):
research advances, when youthink about how we might be able
to leverage AI and broader datascience to finally find a cure
to cancer, to have a strategy totreat and maybe prevent
Alzheimer's and dementia thenumbers of folks suffering with
those conditions growingexponentially.
(26:19):
We could reverse that.
The opportunity that we have tofigure out rapid advances in
renewable energy to help usprotect the environment, the
opportunity we have with areaslike planta to actually get
ahead of our internationalcompetitors.
To actually get ahead of ourinternational competitors.
(26:42):
So what we should be doing as acountry is coming together in a
bipartisan way and saying forthe long-term health of
Americans, for our long-termnational security, we're going
to make big bets on majoradvances in research.
Those are areas where thereused to be bipartisan consensus
and maybe we can get back to itRight.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, no, that's certainly the hope that we get
back to that consensus and builda federal infrastructure that
supports the kind of innovationand workforce of tomorrow that
we need in order to continue tobe a thriving country.
Now you also have, as part ofthe SUNY system, an institution
(27:27):
that focuses on New Yorkers thatmay not have had a great
experience of post-secondaryeducation right off the bat, an
institution that focuses onadult working learners In Empire
State University.
I had the privilege of speakingto the president of Empire
State not too long ago.
How are you thinking aboutserving those New Yorkers that
were not able to access SUNYright off the bat and are now in
(27:49):
the workforce?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, I'm glad you talked with Lisa Willendorf
because she's doing a great joband what Empire State makes
possible is a very flexibleschedule for students because
it's asynchronous, intensiveadvising and support.
They do a great job with priorlearning, assessment and
(28:11):
evaluating if you know you'vedone training through your union
, if you've gotten trainingthrough the military, how that
can be used for credit.
They also are very good athelping students put together
the credits they may have earnedif they started school and
dropped out, or maybe they'vegone to a couple different
schools and gotten credits overthe years.
Empire State helps them compilethose so that they have a
(28:35):
realistic plan to a degree thatis going to help them in the
economy.
And Empire State most recentlylaunched our first bachelor's
degree entirely in Spanish,which we're very excited about A
bachelor's in businessadministration that students can
do entirely in Spanish.
Now, over time, there may bestudents who do some of it in
(28:57):
Spanish and some of it inEnglish, but we're excited about
the possibility that folks inNew York, around the country,
internationally, will be able toaccess this opportunity at
Empire State.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
That sounds great.
Now let me ask you one morequestion as we begin to wrap up,
given your experiences, notjust there at SUNY, but in your
various roles that you've had,and given the inflection point
that we find ourselves in forhigher education because I do
think that this is definitely aninflection point it has caused
(29:35):
some needed self-reflection andit also has caused us to really
think about how we defend thegreat work that we do.
Given all of that, what wouldbe your advice to an
up-and-coming leader in highereducation, someone who wants to
take the reins as president orchancellor of a college or a
(29:56):
system right now?
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Two things.
One is make sure you have acommunity of peers that you can
rely on.
You know, you and I have beenfriends a long time.
It's wonderful to be able tohave colleagues whose advice you
trust, who will help you thinkthrough hard issues, give you
honest feedback, so create thatcommunity.
The second thing is I think wehave to be obsessed in the
sector with demonstrating value,and that means, at a minimum,
(30:31):
folks come to school thinkingit's going to help them in the
economy.
That's true across lines ofrace and class, and so we have
to deliver on that.
At SUNY, one of the things we'retrying to do is we have a goal
of an internship paid internshipfor every undergraduate, and we
have a long way to go toachieve that goal, but we're
trying to grow those as quicklyas possible because we want
(30:51):
every student, whether they'remajoring in engineering or
sociology, to have that paidinternship experience that sets
them up for career success.
We also, I think, when we weretalking about demonstrating
value, we have to work on ourcivic value.
Are we preparing students toparticipate in civic life?
We have something in New Yorkmodeled on something in
(31:13):
California.
It's called the Empire StateService Corps.
We have 500 students who arepaid to do 300 hours a year of
public service work tutoring,environmental work, addressing
food and housing insecurity,serving as peer mental health
counselors and they are learningthe joy of serving others.
They're working alongsidepeople who are different from
(31:35):
them, they're making a littlemoney, which is helping make
college more affordable, andthey're learning to be the kinds
of participants in civic lifethat public higher ed was meant
to prepare.
So that obsession withdemonstrating value, I think is
really important forup-and-coming leaders.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well, I think that's great advice.
I hope our listeners are payingattention and I just want to
say thanks, john, for one, yourservice to higher education for
all these years and for beinghonest, open and transparent
about what we, as educators,should be doing right now.
So thanks for joining me hereon the RAND podcast.
(32:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
And thanks for being such a great friend, mentor and
role model.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Well, thank you, john , and to our listeners, thanks
for joining us here on the RANDPodcast.
You've been listening to myconversation with Chancellor
John King.
He's Chancellor of the StateUniversity of New York, doing a
tremendous job there, and ifyou're following us here on
YouTube, subscribe, continue tofollow us, and if you're
listening to us on audio,continue to follow us on your
(32:42):
favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you all
soon.
Thank you.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and welcome back to
the Rant Podcast, the podcastwhere we pull back the curtain
and break down the people, thepolicies and the politics of a
higher education system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with a friend and colleague
, the Chancellor of the StateUniversity of New York, john
(00:32):
King.
John has had a tremendouscareer service, beginning as a
high school educator, spendingtime leading the education
system in New York.
He was the Secretary ofEducation under President Barack
Obama and also led one of thenation's top education advocacy
groups, the Ed Trust.
Now, as the Chancellor of theState University of New York, he
(00:53):
leads one of the most diverseand one of the largest public
university and community collegesystems in the nation and one
of the cornerstones of NewYork's higher education system.
We talk about what's going onin the State University of New
York, how he's dealing with thechanges that this current
administration is handing downto universities across the
(01:15):
country, the challenges with thepullback in research funding,
as well as the politics ofWashington DC and the Department
of Education.
John has some unique insightsand I know you'll enjoy my
conversation with him.
But before we get into all that, let me just take a moment to
reflect on some of the issuesthat have come up since our last
(01:36):
podcast.
I recently had a chance to joinJohn at the ASU GSV Summit and,
as usual, it was an amazingevent Lots of people, lots of
new technologies, but, of course, the main show was all of the
AI on display, all of the newtechnology focused on artificial
(01:59):
intelligence and how it'spowering a new, more
personalized education system.
There was a lot of greatinnovations that were on display
and we'll see where this allleads, but AI was certainly at
the top of the ticket.
At the ASU GSV Summit, we alsohad a visit from Secretary of
Education Linda McMahon.
(02:19):
In addition to some of theother things that you may have
heard about that she said at theSUGSV Summit, she focused on
workforce and career readiness.
This is going to be a focalpoint of her administration.
You've already seen some ofthis action things like
short-term Pell, improved accessto career pathways, focuses on
(02:44):
apprenticeships.
All these issues are going tobe front and center under her
leadership, which is welcomenews to many of us, and I
suppose, since it did come fromher, sounds like there will be a
role for the Department ofEducation.
We'll see.
In any case, a lot continues totranspire.
There was the attack on HarvardUniversity with regard to the
(03:09):
pushback on the Trumpadministration's demands and of
course that prompted the Trumpadministration to put a jeopardy
Harvard's nonprofit status.
This plays out there's alreadysome pullback from the Trump
administration.
But I will say this I'm usuallynot in a position to give
Harvard University or most ofthe IREs any credit, but I will
(03:38):
give credit where credit is due.
I appreciate the leadership ofHarvard standing up and pushing
back on the ridiculous demandsof the administration that would
have undermined their academicfreedom.
That would have underminedtheir ability to be a top
university in this country.
So kudos to Harvard University.
I hope that this is centered ina real learner-centered
approach, but for now, thank you, harvard, for standing up to
(04:02):
this administration on behalf ofall of us in higher education.
So with that backdrop, let meturn it over to my conversation
with the Chancellor of the StateUniversity of New York, john
King.
Chancellor King, welcome to theRENT Podcast.
Thanks so much.
Excited to be here.
It's great to see you, john.
Thank you for taking time outof your busy schedule there at
(04:25):
the State University of New York.
Let's jump into what's going onthese days, and I know that
things are moving quickly.
So by the time that thispodcast airs, who knows what
will be going on?
But let's just focus on what weknow now.
So let's start with how you andyour SUNY team are responding
(04:47):
to some of the challenges thathave been coming out of this new
administration.
A new administration and let'sstart with the great work that
you and the SUNY team have donebuilding a university that's
diverse, that focuses on equityand that's inclusive of the
various backgrounds that make upthe state of New York.
(05:11):
How are you thinking aboutresponding to some of the
attacks, not just from theadministration but from various
groups throughout the country,on the importance of
universities being diverse andequitable and inclusive?
How are you and your teamthinking about pushing back on
(05:31):
some of those narratives?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
You know, for us diversity, equity, inclusion is
in our DNA.
We were founded more than 75years ago with a clear charge
from the legislature to ensurethe broadest possible access and
to serve all segments of NewYork, and so we're undeterred
(05:55):
about those values becausethey're core to who we are.
And so that means we have chiefdiversity officers on our
campuses whose work is to helpensure that campuses are places
of belonging for all students,and that's students of color,
but it's also LGBTQ students,students with disabilities,
veterans.
We have LGBTQ students,students with disabilities,
veterans.
We have a diversity equityinclusion course requirement, so
(06:20):
every undergraduate, beforethey leave SUNY, has to take a
course that deals with themes ofdiversity equity inclusion.
That could be a business studentlearning about the racial
wealth gap.
It could be a nursing studentlearning about maternal health
disparities based on race, butwe think that's important for
preparing folks for civic lifeand we're going to continue to
(06:43):
that work.
We certainly are eager to makesure that we are serving a
diverse student population thatreflects all aspects of New York
State.
You know we are clear since theSFFA decision that we cannot
use race in admission.
We understand that, but webelieve that we can build a
class that represents New York,by looking at factors like
(07:07):
low-income status, first-genstatus, adversity students have
overcome in their school orcommunity.
We prioritize recruitingveterans and AmeriCorps alumni.
So for us, our values areunchanged and I personally,
having started my career as ahigh school social studies
teacher, I'm always going totalk about the importance of
(07:28):
teaching the truth of ourhistory, even the uncomfortable
truths of our history.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, it amazes me when people talk about some of
these discussions beingun-American.
I can't think of anything moreAmerican than digging into what
made us who we are today andlooking at some of the
challenges that we've faced.
How do we improve society goingforward and how do we make
(07:57):
America stronger?
Because, regardless of whatpeople feel today, america was
founded on immigrants Immigrantsinteracting with indigenous
people, trying to build a nationthat we have today.
So learning more about who weare, I think, only makes us
stronger going forward.
(08:17):
So that's always confusing tome.
It doesn't make us lessAmerican.
I think it makes us moreAmerican.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
That's exactly right.
You're exactly right.
And look, I think it'sdangerous to have this effort to
hide or distort our history asa country.
It's going to result instudents who are less prepared
to move the country forward,right.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm glad that you're willing to talk about the
mission of SUNY this way,because it was created to serve
the state of New York, thepeople of the state of New York.
The people of the state of NewYork and the people of the state
of New York are diverse.
They come from all sorts ofbackgrounds ethnic, racial,
religious, cultural.
That's what makes New York NewYork, and a state university
(09:09):
system that's dedicated toserving all the people of New
York can only make the state ofNew York stronger and more
resilient and have an economythat, hopefully, is inclusive of
everyone, regardless of thatbackground.
I think that's great for NewYork and that's great for the
country, in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Absolutely, and I'm grateful to have Governor Hochul
and our Attorney General TishJames, real champions of those
values who are ready to stand upto defend them.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Now, within all the chaos and consternation over DEI
and how do we serve, and as wethink about free speech and
anti-Semitism and all the thingsthat are in sort of this stew
of what's going on today, Ithink there is some truth that
we have lost some confidencefrom the public Us as educators,
(10:03):
particularly in highereducation.
We've sort of lost a highground on value and containing
costs.
How do you deal with some ofthose challenges that truly need
to be addressed within auniversity like SUNY, while not
appearing to be caving to someof the criticism that you're
(10:24):
getting?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
That's a great question.
Look, we try to be very clearabout who we are and what we do.
You know we serve 370,000students in degree programs.
370,000 students in degreeprograms.
We see about 1.3 millionstudents a year when you include
our non-credit workforcedevelopment programs.
So we are serving folks inevery part of the state.
(10:47):
95% of New Yorkers live within30 miles of a SUNY campus.
We are contributing to upwardmobility in the state.
About one in three collegealums in New York State is a
SUNY alum.
So we are helping prepare theworkforce.
Whether you're talking abouthealthcare or the semiconductor
(11:07):
industry or cutting edge fieldslike artificial intelligence,
the path is through SUNY.
We also are very affordable.
New York, like California, hasmaintained a real commitment to
public higher education overtime.
The tuition at our four-yearinstitutions $7,070 for the year
(11:28):
is willing to invest.
52% of our students across ourtwo and four-year institutions
go tuition-free because of theFederal Pell Grant Program and
the New York State TuitionAssistance Program, and we are
helping students move from oftendifficult backgrounds to lives
(11:54):
of opportunity right.
A good number of our studentsare first in their family to go
to college.
They're from immigrant families, they're from families that are
struggling economically andthey're accessing the American
dream.
We also serve a tremendousnumber of middle-income students
and more affluent students whorepresent, again, every aspect
(12:14):
of New York.
So folks need to know who we areand I think it's important for
higher ed to stand up and talkabout the reality of what we do.
And we've also been very clearwe're not going to have any
tolerance for antisemitism onour campuses.
We've done Title VI training tomake sure that folks, all of
(12:35):
our staff, all of our faculty,have gone through that Title VI
training.
We want folks to understand thecivil rights importance of
protecting students againstdiscrimination, whether it's on
the basis of religion or race.
But at the end of the day,we're doing the thing public
higher ed was meant to do atSUNY and I think the higher ed
(12:56):
sector has been too much back onour heels and too much allowing
some real errors in judgment.
I think at some of the verywell-resourced elite
institutions, some of the IBs,allowing some of their mistakes
to be used to justify anindictment of the entire higher
(13:17):
ed sector.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I couldn't agree more .
I think there's been aninstitution there in New York
that's been very prominentlately and I think a lot of us
are wondering how they got wherethey are and whether or not
they've made the right decisionsgoing forward.
But hopefully, hopefully, forthe sake of their students they
have.
So let's talk more about SUNY.
(13:39):
And for those who don't knowSUNY very well, you have both
four-year institutions.
You have two-year communitycollege institutions working
together.
You have research functions,you have medical functions.
So the recent pullback, or therecent threats of pulling back,
(13:59):
research funding, particularlyNIH funding and other federal
funding that goes to support theresearch functions at
universities like the ones youhave, that go to produce very
important research that leads toinnovations, that leads to new
technologies, that leads to morejobs in states like New York
how are you bracing for andpreparing for some of those cuts
(14:23):
in funding?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Look, I think the administration's attack on
research is a disaster for thecountry.
It's bad for the economy, it'sbad for national security, bad
(14:55):
for the economy, it's bad fornational1.2 billion a year in
sponsored research, largelyconcentrated at our major
research universities StonyBrook, university of Buffalo,
university of Albany andBinghamton, as well as our
academic medical centers.
The NIH cuts for us would havemeant losing about $79 million.
(15:21):
But what's important is it'snot money loss just to the
institution, it's money loss tothe research, and I'm talking
about research on treatments forAlzheimer's, treatments for
cancer.
We have an NIH project thatStony Brook focused on 9-11
first responders and theirtreatment as they deal with
(15:42):
illnesses connected to havingbeen at ground zero.
So when you walk away from thatresearch, you are harming New
Yorkers and you're harming thehealth and well-being of the
country.
So I'm glad that the courtshave stepped in.
The courts have also stepped into protect teacher preparation
grant programs that we have atthe University of Buffalo.
(16:03):
I'm hopeful that Congress willcontinue to stand up for
research.
You know, on the first Trumpterm he proposed in every budget
huge cuts to federal researchspending.
But federal research spendingwent up over his first term and
that's because Congress, in abipartisan way, stood up for
their constituents, and so thequestion is will they do that
(16:26):
now?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Well, that's money that goes to the economies of
their districts.
That's money that goes to feedtechnology, to feed jobs, to
create economic development intheir districts.
So it's just amazing to me thatthere hasn't been more of a
fight in Congress.
But we'll see.
We'll see how it all shakes out.
I was talking with the formerpresident of University of
(16:49):
California, janet Napolitano,recently.
I also was on a call withMichael Drake, who is now the
president of University ofCalifornia.
I also was on a call withMichael Drake, who is now the
president of the University ofCalifornia, and just listening
to them talk about the impact ofresearch at a place like the UC
, which is huge.
It has a tremendous impact onnot just the state of California
but the entire world in theresearch that they do.
(17:10):
But you have graduate studentsnow questioning whether they
should go into the researchfields, not knowing whether
there's going to be jobs.
You have a hiring freeze in theUniversity of California which
just went into effect.
This is having a chillingeffect on the entire research
community.
And so, while we brag about andeven the president brags about
(17:34):
us being, you know, at the topof the list in research, having
a lead in AI, all that is goingto go to waste and we're going
to fall back tremendouslybecause of this lack of capacity
for doing the research thatfuels our technology prominence
in the world.
So we'll see how it all shakesout, but I'm a little bit
(17:56):
concerned about what this isgoing to mean downstream.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Definitely, look at our international competitors,
whether it's economiccompetitors or the competitors
for influence around the world.
They're laughing at us, right?
They see this as the UnitedStates unilaterally giving up
its incredible advantage in theinnovation economy.
(18:21):
It's crazy, to be honest, tohave this kind of willful
dismantling of our competitiveadvantage.
If we're worried about keepingup with China in areas like
semiconductors or artificialintelligence, the thing that
(18:42):
would most undermine our abilityto keep up with them is
dismantling the researchfunction in our university.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And I'm sure the people who would just assume
that you and I are having a wokeconversation.
But this is an economicconversation.
This is a national securityconversation.
That has nothing to do withwokeness.
This has everything to do withthe health of our economies and
our position in the globe.
To my colleagues who mayconsider this a woke
(19:14):
conversation, I'd say take alook at the economic impact that
some of these cuts are going tohave and then come back and
talk to me.
So, john, let's talk about someof your experiences and how they
center you in terms of what'sgoing on in the country these
days.
You've had a unique set ofexperiences as an educator.
(19:36):
You mentioned spending time inhigh schools.
You have been the Secretary ofEducation under President Obama,
so you have a little bit ofknowledge of the Department of
Education.
You've led a major advocacyorganization at the Ed Trust,
and now you lead one of thenation's largest public higher
(19:57):
education systems in SUNY.
So, given all of thisexperience and the recent news
about the administration's plansto dismantle the Department of
Education, what's your advice toSecretary McMahon and how would
you argue for the slowing downand the rethinking of a plan to
(20:21):
dismantle the Department ofEducation?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, look, I think she needs to demonstrate some
real moral courage here and it'snever easy to tell your boss
that their idea is terrible butshe ought to go to the president
and Elon Musk and tell them tostop because what they're doing
(20:45):
is so harmful to the well-beingof students and families.
I'll tell you why.
The education department reallyhas four main functions.
The Education Department reallyhas four main functions.
One, sending resources to helpvulnerable students.
The Title I program that helpsstudents in low-income schools.
The Individuals withDisabilities Education Act
(21:06):
funding that helps provideservices for students with
disabilities.
Undermining those activitieswill make America weaker.
It will make our students lesssuccessful.
Second major function is PellGrants that help low-income
students access higher educationand the student loan system
(21:28):
that makes higher educationpossible for low and
middle-income Americans.
Without those systemsfunctioning well, we undermine
the future health of our economy.
If we need nurses, if we needtechnicians on the floor of the
advanced manufacturing site, ifwe need computer scientists, if
(21:49):
we need architects and engineers, we need folks to be able to go
to college and if we dismantlethose systems that make college
possible, we harm our future.
Third function is civil rightsprotection, and that's crucial.
I always point out to folks.
(22:11):
You look at that famous NormanRockwell painting of Ruby
Bridges integrating schools inNew Orleans.
You see little Ruby Bridges inthe center, but she is escorted
by federal marshals because thestate and district did not want
to provide her with opportunity.
And, sally, that is still truein many places.
States and districts, for avariety of reasons, are not
(22:33):
delivering fairness.
They are not providing studentswith what they need because of
race or religion or gender, andso the department needs to be
able to step in.
You can't walk away from that.
And then the last function isaround data and research and
transparency.
How will we know where we'redoing well and where we're
(22:56):
struggling if we don't have data?
How will we be able tounderstand what's necessary to
help students succeed if wearen't doing research?
So I would hope that SecretaryMcMahon would have the personal
fortitude to have the hardconversation with folks and say
(23:18):
you know now that I betterunderstand what actually happens
at the department.
This mindless dismantling iswrong for the country.
Now I'm not very optimisticthat that'll happen, but that's
what should happen, right.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, we'll see how it all shakes out.
I do hold out some hope thatthe Secretary will see enhancing
some of the value that comesout of the Department of
Education, but we'll see.
On solutions for Congress andfor the administration.
(23:57):
You and I both participate withanother former Secretary of
Education, margaret Spelling, onthe Bipartisan Policy Center's
Commission on the AmericanWorkforce.
So I think that many of us seesome opportunities here.
I mean, given the focus onworking class Americans and
(24:18):
giving them better opportunitiesin the economy that's being
created by AI, going forward,seizing the opportunity to focus
on improving the connectionbetween education and employment
all those things that arefrustrating people in America
about our post-secondary systemand being more transparent and
(24:39):
creating more value for learnersand their families.
So what are some of theopportunities that you see,
given all the challenges thatwe're facing?
Speaker 3 (24:50):
A couple of things come immediately to mind.
I think we could be doing moreto provide folks with access to
short-term programs that lead togood economic opportunities for
them.
There's been a bipartisanconversation about short-term
Pell, allowing students in thoseshorter-term programs to access
Pell Grants to pay for them.
(25:11):
That could be a good thing ifthe guardrails are right, if the
programs are well-designed inpartnership with employers, if
there's real accountability,that the programs lead to actual
earnings improvement for theparticipants and can translate
over the long-term into creditsand an entry point to a higher
(25:34):
education degree the rightguardrails that could be a real
winning bipartisan policyinnovation Another area is
actually doing the opposite ofwhat the administration has
signaled so far and doublingdown on research.
We actually could be at the veryedge of a golden age in
(25:57):
research advances, when youthink about how we might be able
to leverage AI and broader datascience to finally find a cure
to cancer, to have a strategy totreat and maybe prevent
Alzheimer's and dementia thenumbers of folks suffering with
those conditions growingexponentially.
(26:19):
We could reverse that.
The opportunity that we have tofigure out rapid advances in
renewable energy to help usprotect the environment, the
opportunity we have with areaslike planta to actually get
ahead of our internationalcompetitors.
To actually get ahead of ourinternational competitors.
(26:42):
So what we should be doing as acountry is coming together in a
bipartisan way and saying forthe long-term health of
Americans, for our long-termnational security, we're going
to make big bets on majoradvances in research.
Those are areas where thereused to be bipartisan consensus
and maybe we can get back to itRight.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, no, that's certainly the hope that we get
back to that consensus and builda federal infrastructure that
supports the kind of innovationand workforce of tomorrow that
we need in order to continue tobe a thriving country.
Now you also have, as part ofthe SUNY system, an institution
(27:27):
that focuses on New Yorkers thatmay not have had a great
experience of post-secondaryeducation right off the bat, an
institution that focuses onadult working learners In Empire
State University.
I had the privilege of speakingto the president of Empire
State not too long ago.
How are you thinking aboutserving those New Yorkers that
were not able to access SUNYright off the bat and are now in
(27:49):
the workforce?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, I'm glad you talked with Lisa Willendorf
because she's doing a great joband what Empire State makes
possible is a very flexibleschedule for students because
it's asynchronous, intensiveadvising and support.
They do a great job with priorlearning, assessment and
(28:11):
evaluating if you know you'vedone training through your union
, if you've gotten trainingthrough the military, how that
can be used for credit.
They also are very good athelping students put together
the credits they may have earnedif they started school and
dropped out, or maybe they'vegone to a couple different
schools and gotten credits overthe years.
Empire State helps them compilethose so that they have a
(28:35):
realistic plan to a degree thatis going to help them in the
economy.
And Empire State most recentlylaunched our first bachelor's
degree entirely in Spanish,which we're very excited about A
bachelor's in businessadministration that students can
do entirely in Spanish.
Now, over time, there may bestudents who do some of it in
(28:57):
Spanish and some of it inEnglish, but we're excited about
the possibility that folks inNew York, around the country,
internationally, will be able toaccess this opportunity at
Empire State.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
That sounds great.
Now let me ask you one morequestion as we begin to wrap up,
given your experiences, notjust there at SUNY, but in your
various roles that you've had,and given the inflection point
that we find ourselves in forhigher education because I do
think that this is definitely aninflection point it has caused
(29:35):
some needed self-reflection andit also has caused us to really
think about how we defend thegreat work that we do.
Given all of that, what wouldbe your advice to an
up-and-coming leader in highereducation, someone who wants to
take the reins as president orchancellor of a college or a
(29:56):
system right now?
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Two things.
One is make sure you have acommunity of peers that you can
rely on.
You know, you and I have beenfriends a long time.
It's wonderful to be able tohave colleagues whose advice you
trust, who will help you thinkthrough hard issues, give you
honest feedback, so create thatcommunity.
The second thing is I think wehave to be obsessed in the
sector with demonstrating value,and that means, at a minimum,
(30:31):
folks come to school thinkingit's going to help them in the
economy.
That's true across lines ofrace and class, and so we have
to deliver on that.
At SUNY, one of the things we'retrying to do is we have a goal
of an internship paid internshipfor every undergraduate, and we
have a long way to go toachieve that goal, but we're
trying to grow those as quicklyas possible because we want
(30:51):
every student, whether they'remajoring in engineering or
sociology, to have that paidinternship experience that sets
them up for career success.
We also, I think, when we weretalking about demonstrating
value, we have to work on ourcivic value.
Are we preparing students toparticipate in civic life?
We have something in New Yorkmodeled on something in
(31:13):
California.
It's called the Empire StateService Corps.
We have 500 students who arepaid to do 300 hours a year of
public service work tutoring,environmental work, addressing
food and housing insecurity,serving as peer mental health
counselors and they are learningthe joy of serving others.
They're working alongsidepeople who are different from
(31:35):
them, they're making a littlemoney, which is helping make
college more affordable, andthey're learning to be the kinds
of participants in civic lifethat public higher ed was meant
to prepare.
So that obsession withdemonstrating value, I think is
really important forup-and-coming leaders.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well, I think that's great advice.
I hope our listeners are payingattention and I just want to
say thanks, john, for one, yourservice to higher education for
all these years and for beinghonest, open and transparent
about what we, as educators,should be doing right now.
So thanks for joining me hereon the RAND podcast.
(32:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
And thanks for being such a great friend, mentor and
role model.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Well, thank you, john , and to our listeners, thanks
for joining us here on the RANDPodcast.
You've been listening to myconversation with Chancellor
John King.
He's Chancellor of the StateUniversity of New York, doing a
tremendous job there, and ifyou're following us here on
YouTube, subscribe, continue tofollow us, and if you're
listening to us on audio,continue to follow us on your
(32:42):
favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you all
soon.
Thank you.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!