June 24, 2025 • 35 mins
The American higher education system stands at a crossroads, facing unprecedented challenges that threaten its very foundation. In this revealing conversation, Eloy Ortiz Oakley sits down with Ted Mitchell, President of the American Council on Education (ACE), to discuss how colleges and universities across the country are responding to these threats.
Mitchell, whose organization represents over 1,700 diverse institutions, offers a compelling perspective on how higher education is uniting across traditional dividing lines. "Higher ed sticks together, especially in times of crisis," Mitchell explains, highlighting the solidarity forming among institutions from community colleges to elite research universities as they face common threats from policy changes, funding cuts, and declining public confidence.
The conversation takes a deep dive into the devastating impact of recent research funding cuts, which Mitchell calls "one of the single worst policy initiatives" of the current administration. Beyond the immediate layoffs at institutions like Johns Hopkins and hiring freezes at the University of California, Mitchell paints a vivid picture of the long-term consequences: potential medical breakthroughs abandoned, the next generation of scientists left without training, and top researchers fleeing to more welcoming countries.
Perhaps most refreshing is Mitchell's candid acknowledgment of higher education's self-inflicted wounds. From dismal completion rates to opaque admissions processes at elite institutions, he doesn't shy away from the uncomfortable truth: "We've earned some of the disrespect we're being treated with." Mitchell outlines ACE's "Higher Ed Builds America" campaign, which aims to refocus all institutions on their primary mission: student success.
Looking forward, Mitchell offers a compelling vision of education transformed through artificial intelligence—not merely as a technological tool, but as a force that could revolutionize student services, faculty capabilities, and learning itself. His call for integrating humanities scholars into AI development to ensure technology partners with humans rather than replaces them reveals a nuanced understanding of both innovation's promise and its potential pitfalls.
What emerges is a portrait of an education leader determined to guide institutions through turbulent times by returning to higher education's core purpose: creating opportunity and success for all students. For anyone concerned about the future of American higher education—whether educator, policymaker, or citizen—this conversation offers essential insights into the challenges we face and the changes needed to overcome them.
ACENet.edu
https://www.acenet.edu/Pages/dotedu/home.aspx
eloy@4leggedmedia.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley.
Welcome back to the RantPodcast, the podcast where we
pull back the curtain and breakdown the people, the policies
and the politics of our highereducation system.
In this episode, I get to talkwith a good friend and colleague
, ted Mitchell.
Ted is the president and CEO ofthe American Council on
(00:32):
Education, ace.
Ace is one of the largesthigher education membership and
advocacy organizations, withroots going back to World War I.
It represents more than 1,700colleges and universities of all
types and across the country.
The membership also includesseveral other advocacy and
(00:56):
membership organizations, suchas my favorite, the American
Association of CommunityColleges, as well as other
well-known associations like theAmerican Association of State
Colleges, as well as otherwell-known associations like the
American Association of StateColleges and Universities and my
least favorite organization,the National Association of
Independent Colleges andUniversities.
I sit down with Ted to talkabout what's happening in higher
(01:19):
education today, how hismembership is holding together
in this moment of crisis for theAmerican higher education
system, how he's thinking aboutthe impact of AI on higher
education going forward and howhe himself is dealing with all
the pressures that the newadministration has brought on to
(01:41):
the American higher educationsystem.
But before I talk with Ted, Ijust want to take a moment to
reflect on this moment in time.
I'm here in California and I'm alifelong Californian.
I've lived through some verydifficult times with regard to
immigration policy here inCalifornia, but this moment,
this moment, seems different.
Watching images of the NationalGuard and US Marines in the
(02:06):
streets of Los Angeles and itsneighboring cities is unsettling
, to say the least.
Not only is it unsettling, it'salso, in my view, dumb politics
and dumb policy.
Dumb policy why?
Because in states likeCalifornia and really nearly all
50 states, states likeCalifornia, illinois, new York,
(02:27):
florida, north Carolina,tennessee the list goes on and
on and on there are hardworkingimmigrants living in those
communities and, yes, in somecases they fled their countries
of origin to come to the UnitedStates, some through legal means
countries of origin to come tothe United States, some through
(02:48):
legal means, some throughnon-legal means.
But they are here to work hardand to serve our communities and
they're a huge part of oureconomy.
Think about the debate we'rehaving over deportations of
agricultural workers.
Think about what would happento the agricultural industry if
we suddenly started massdeportations.
It would fall apart.
It is dumb policy.
Good policy is going aftercriminals that nobody wants in
(03:13):
this country, people who aredoing bad things to good people,
doing bad things to our economy.
There's no argument there.
There's no argument there.
And to get Congress to actuallyenact fair and good immigration
policy that gives a path forwardto hardworking Americans who
(03:35):
may have come here through othermeans other than those
currently codified in statute.
It's also bad politics becausethese people may or may not
become full citizens at somepoint.
They're going to remember thismoment.
The people around them familymembers, friends, the people who
(03:56):
work side by side with them aregoing to remember this moment.
If the administration wouldtake a chapter out of the Reagan
administration and find a pathforward for many of these
immigrants, they would reap thebenefit for years to come.
Instead, they are turning themaway in droves, getting them
(04:16):
angry and making this anunwelcoming country to
immigrants.
So it is bad policy and it isbad politics to immigrants.
So it is bad policy and it isbad politics.
So for those reasons, I and mycolleagues at College Future
continue to push forward, topush back on these policies and
remind policymakers of theimportance of creating
(04:37):
opportunity for thoseindividuals that work hard every
day in our communities and togive people an opportunity or a
path forward to citizenship anda right to live, work and
breathe and reap the benefits ofthis country.
That's what this country wasbuilt on and that's still a huge
(04:59):
part of the American dream.
So with that, please enjoy myconversation with Ted Mitchell,
who heads the American Councilon Education.
Ted, welcome to the Rantpodcast.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Thank you so much for having me.
Good to see you.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
It's always great to see you, ted.
I hope you're survivingWashington DC these days and I
just want to say thanks fortaking the time out of your busy
schedule to join us here on theRant.
I know there's a lot going onnot just in higher education but
all across the country and allacross the world, so it's
exciting times these days.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
How have you been?
I've been great and I have totell you this is the high point
of my day, week and maybe mymonth to talk to a great
colleague, a good friend, and toget a little perspective on all
of this craziness.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Well, we will certainly talk.
I don't know if I'll add muchperspective, but we can
certainly have a therapy session.
Love it.
So, Ted, you lead the AmericanCouncil on Education.
It's the nation's best knownhigher education membership and
advocacy organization, has along, long history.
Many leaders in highereducation, many of our listeners
(06:12):
, know about ACE but don'treally understand what you do
there.
So, for our listeners, tell usabout the history of ACE, the
mission and how you support theneeds of your diverse membership
(06:40):
.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
We've sent all these, mostly young men, abroad in
service of America.
They're coming back and we'renot sure that there's room in
American colleges anduniversities for them.
So we started in a way as aveteran service organization,
making it possible for veteransof World War I to attend
(07:00):
colleges and universities.
Making room in Americancolleges and universities and
really that's been the heartbeatof ACE from the beginning is
providing opportunities forthose who typically don't have
opportunities to enroll in andsucceed through the very best
American colleges.
So we've consistently worked toexpand opportunity.
(07:23):
The GI Bill we were one of thechief architects of the GI Bill.
We built the GED exam early onto provide opportunity for
people who weren't yetcompleting high school.
And then, more recently, hardwork on the Civil Rights Act,
title IX other things that haveexpanded opportunity.
(07:43):
Now, eli, as you and I know,opportunity is one thing,
success is another, and so we'vehad to couple our focus on
access with a focus on creatingopportunities for students to
thrive in their colleges anduniversities.
So HELL grants effectivestudent loan programs.
That's all been a part of ourfederal policy portfolio.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Ted, tell us about your membership.
What does your membership looklike?
Who are the members of ACE andhow do you actually get the
business of ACE done?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, it's a great question.
We do represent all sectors, sotwo-year, four-year, public and
private, and so that means thatour members come from small
community colleges in ruralareas, major flagship research
universities, and one of ourchallenges is creating, out of
(08:40):
that great diversity, sort of acentralized position on
important policy issues.
And that's really our work isto bring people together to
identify issues of commonimportance, either positive or
negative.
Fight for those things that wethink will make a positive
difference, fight against thosethings that we think will be
(09:00):
harmful.
And you know, I have to saythat I've been doing this job
now for eight years and whilesome of us think of the sectors
as very divided and having verydiscontinuous interests, my
experience has been the reverseHigher ed sticks together,
especially in times of crisis,and we're in one of those right
now.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
We are certainly in one of those right now and it's
good to hear that highereducation is coming together.
All the organizations that makeup ACE it's interesting, you
know, over time those of us inthe two-year sector I'm sure
look at some of the more orbetter resourced private
(09:43):
universities that are part ofthe ACE membership and have our
differences.
But at a time like this itseems to me that attack on one
is an attack on all.
So hopefully that's theattitude of the membership of
ACE?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
It certainly is, and I think that there are headline
issues of just the in the lastlittle bit, the headline issues
around immigration, issues ofjust the in the last little bit,
the headline issues aroundimmigration the delay in visas,
the treatment of domesticstudents who may not have full
documentation.
All of these are issues thatreally impact every institution
(10:19):
back and forth, across fromelite private institutions Some
of them, I think I've started tocall celebrity institutions,
because they can't seem to stopthemselves from being in the
news, you know all the way downto the institutions that I think
are the bread and butter ofAmerican higher education, which
are community colleges andregional publics, where the
(10:41):
majority of our students live,work and, hopefully, prosper.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Well, that's right.
Your membership, as youmentioned, includes a wide
variety of institutions and Iknow you mentioned your advocacy
role and I've certainly readyour comments recently regarding
the budget proposal that madeits way out of the House and
it's moving on to the Senate.
Given the barrage of executiveorders and attacks and
(11:12):
congressional action that'staking place right now, how do
you manage that broad spectrumof needs across your membership
and advocate on behalf of all ofus in higher education.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, that's my day job, so thank you for noting it.
You know there are places whereyou have to lean a little bit.
So there was quite a greatconversation going on now about
the federal support for research.
I think, unambiguously, we allbelieve that research is
important to the future ofsociety technological progress,
(11:47):
biomedical advances, et cetera.
They don't come from thin air.
They come from the hard work ofour research universities.
So, as you said earlier, we allhave an interest in that.
But the interest of a bigresearch university is different
than the interest of a smallliberal arts college in that
regard, and so I think we canlead with a group that is most
(12:11):
impacted to make sure thateverybody else is providing
moral and advocacy support.
So we have a lot of supportfrom community college members
for continuing research in themajor research universities, and
I'm very proud of the communitycolleges' willingness to do
that.
On the other side, I think thatwe know that community colleges
(12:34):
are beginning not beginningcontinuing to offer shorter
degrees, shorter programs andcertificates.
Right, and it's very importantto the community college sector
to be able to have a Pell Grantprogram that meets the needs of
those students, and so thecommunity colleges are leading
on that one, but we're pullingall of the other sectors in
(12:56):
behind, saying that this isgoing to be important for all of
us.
So there may be a leader, butas long as we can organize
followers, I think we'll be ingood shape.
And then, as I mentioned, withimmigration, there are issues
that just cut across everybody'slife.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yes, that's for sure, particularly in states like
mine, California, and otherstates that rely so heavily on
the immigrant population.
I mean, that is our economy inCalifornia and if you're not an
immigrant yourself, first orsecond generation immigrant,
whether you're fully documentedor not, that's a big part of our
(13:34):
communities and members of thecommunities have friends,
neighbors, family members whoare touched by this.
And it's just amazing to me howthe administration is looking
at this and really underminingthe economies of the biggest
states in the country andtherefore ultimately undermining
the economy of the biggeststates in the country and
therefore ultimately underminingthe economy of the country.
(13:54):
So we'll see where this allcomes together at some point.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You know, uli, if I can interject, I think that's
absolutely right, and one of thethings that I find encouraging
is that in unlikely places likethe state of Texas, there has
been broad recognition of theimportance of educating an
immigrant and first and secondgeneration population to serve
(14:24):
the needs of one of the mostdynamic economies in the country
.
One of the most dynamiceconomies in the country, and it
seems to me that we need towork hard at getting that
message through, and there maybe parts of the country that
aren't as directly I want to say, both reliant and benefit from
the richness of the immigrantpopulation.
(14:46):
There are a lot of people inpretty conservative states who
kind of get it that this is thefuture of the state and if
demographics are destiny, webetter do our job with people
who don't look like me.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
So.
I had a couple of yourcolleagues on recently.
I had John King from the StateUniversity of New York on and
also had Janet Napolitano,former president of UC.
Of course, both of them alsospent some time in the Obama
administration along with you.
(15:23):
They express deep frustrationover an issue that you just
mentioned the recent moves bythe administration to gut
research funding, basic researchfunding across the country and
across Research 1 universities.
The impact on innovation andour competitive edge in the
(15:46):
world, they express, will besignificantly stunted, if not
completely undermined.
What are you hearing from yourmembers about this issue?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
And how are you advocating to Congress to
reverse these actions?
Yeah, I think it is one of thesingle worst policy initiatives
of this administration, becauseit has both short-term and
long-term impacts.
The short-term impact is thatJohns Hopkins University had to
lay off 2,000 people who weredoing work in international
(16:22):
development.
The University of California hasalready put in a hiring freeze,
so it's having a short-termimpact on the work that's going
on, and let's remember that alot of that research is
time-sensitive.
So we know colleagues who areworking in labs that depend on
cultures that are growing intest tubes, and if you're
(16:43):
freezing the funding, you'regetting rid of all that research
.
So who knows which cancer curejust went down the drain at UC
Riverside as a result of thesefreezes?
And then, long term, not onlyare we depriving ourselves of
these scientific discoveries,but we're depriving ourselves of
the next generation ofscientists whose training is
(17:06):
being interrupted by thesegrants.
So, short-term and long-term,this is nutty policy.
It's also bad internationalpolitics, because we're already
seeing some of the nation's bestresearchers moving their labs
to Europe, canada, to Australia,where they're being received
with a warm embrace and a lot ofstartup money.
(17:28):
So I just think that this isawful.
What are we doing?
We're doing a couple of things.
First, and I think the mostimportant, is that we're trying
to demonstrate to theadministration pain, long-term
and short, that these cuts areputting on our people.
(17:49):
And I think when the government, in its short-sighted way,
thinks about research, theythink about giant labs and
cyclotrons and big telescopes.
Well, that's one kind ofresearch let's go down to.
You know, let's talk to ourfriends at San Luis Obispo about
(18:11):
the research that's fundedthere, that is, examining health
disparities in their communityand using research funding to be
able to direct funds to supportpeople who don't have access to
health us to help.
(18:32):
So we need to remind Congressand we need to remind the
executive branch that when wetalk about research, we're also
talking about direct services topeople, and that's why.
Second is you know, likeanything else, the way the
government funds research is old.
The current funding mechanismwas developed in 1992.
It probably deserves a refresh.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So, in the words of Bill Clinton, we're trying to
reform the policies aroundresearch and trying to suggest
to Congress different ways ofsupporting research that we hope
will have some traction thatwill not throw the baby out with
the bathwater.
Beyond the political challengesthat every higher education
institution is feeling thesedays, there's also been
measurable decline in theconfidence of our institutions,
and this has been going onbefore the administration.
How is ACE thinking aboutimproving the value proposition
(19:32):
of higher education andimproving the image of colleges
and universities in the mind ofthe public?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, it's a really important and basic question and
, eli, I think you'll rememberbecause you were on the ACE
board when I was interviewingfor this job, and one of the
things we talked about even thenwas the negative narrative that
was emerging around highereducation.
And you know, I think, thatwe're proud of the work that we
(19:58):
do in higher ed, and so I thinkour first, second and third
attempts to stem that flow ofnegative imagery was to talk
louder and make better videos ofthe work that we're doing.
For those of your listeners whoare sports fans, I have the
image of those halftime videosthat everybody puts up in NCAA
(20:21):
football games, which I don'tthink have had an impact on
anyone in the universe sincethey were first minted.
But yeah, you know we like totell the good story, and so we
tried that for a long time andit didn't work.
And then I think we've begun toget serious.
In the time that you were inthe Biden administration, we got
serious about looking at someof the real shortcomings in
(20:45):
higher education and say, well,wait a minute, american people
aren't stupid.
If they really think we'redoing something wrong, maybe we
minute.
American people aren't stupidIf they've got.
If they really think we'redoing something wrong, maybe we
are, let's look for it.
Maybe we are here.
We are here we are.
I think we got a load of it andit came a lot faster than we
can manage it.
But you know things that you'veworked on in your career, that
(21:06):
you worked on in theadministration completion rates.
Let's just take that oneCompletion rates at four-year
universities, 100% of thestudents who show up want a
degree.
That's why they're out there atour front door.
Only 60 out of the 100 who showup get a degree.
Is that a good thing?
Well, for a long time we justthought of that.
(21:29):
Well, you know, is that a goodthing?
Well, for a long time we justthought of that.
Well, you know 40% of thepeople.
They just couldn't hack it.
And we now know that it's notabout whether they could hack it
or not.
It's about whether they couldafford it, whether their family
circumstances and lifecircumstances allowed them to
take classes between 10 and 4 onTuesdays and Thursdays.
And we learned that that lowcompletion rate was a stain on
(21:52):
all of us.
And what's new is that everyone of those 40 out of 100 who
didn't graduate now has a giantmegaphone that we call social
media.
Right, and they are makingtheir upset note, and it's not
just to Uncle Fred at theMemorial Day barbecue, it's to
(22:12):
the 10,000 people who arefollowing them on one variety of
social media right now.
So I think we've come tounderstand that we've earned
some of the disrespect we'rebeing treated with.
The admissions process in eliteuniversities is the opposite of
transparent.
It's a game and you've got topay to play, and not just in the
(22:41):
varsity blues angle of it.
People who are more affluentpeople who are legacies, they
have a leg up.
More affluent people who arelegacies, they have a leg up.
And you know, it just says topeople it's not for me.
So I think that we've becomemore honest over the last, I
would say, five years, and Iwant to compliment you and the
(23:01):
Biden administration not gettinga lot of compliments these days
, but you really did shine alight on some of the ways in
which higher education didn'tserve a broad swath of American
society.
And so what we've been doing atACE and this goes back to your
very early questions what is itthat could bring higher
(23:25):
education together around thisnegative narrative?
So what's the?
You've got researchinstitutions over here.
You've got community collegesand other trade institutions
that are focusing on trades andcareers.
What's the common denominator?
The common denominator isundergraduate student education,
and so we have been on acampaign we call it Higher Ed
(23:49):
Builds America to get everybodyin the country who is engaged in
higher education to focus onjob number one, and job number
one is student success.
So we're pushing as hard as wecan to get institutions to
commit to broad access at thefront end, but then hard, hard
(24:11):
work all the way through astudent's career, to help them
succeed and walk across thatplatform with an AA, with a
certificate, with a BA, with amaster's degree, and make sure
that they're equipped withskills and habits of mind that
will set them up in the neweconomy.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I hope all of our colleagues across higher
education ecosystem hear thatcall and come together to work
together to improve the valueproposition, because the
direction we're going is notgood for anyone.
And speaking of things notgoing well, I was at your former
institution, occidental, nottoo long ago and I've been
(24:51):
visiting a lot of differentcolleges and universities, sort
of hearing their thoughts aboutwhat's going on.
You've been in higher educationa long time, you've been in the
UC system, you have led aprivate university over at
Occidental, you've been theundersecretary and now you're
over at ACE.
(25:12):
There seems to be thiscontinuous downward spiral in
the business model oftraditional higher education
institutions, and you knowthere's a variety of reasons.
But what do you see as thesolution for traditional higher
education institutions?
I mean, we all read theheadlines here in california,
(25:37):
the cal state system is goingthrough some significant crisis.
Uh, one, one could say thatit's a existential crisis.
In the CSU, a lot of privatenonprofits are closing their
doors and there's concern aboutenrollments.
And then you see otheruniversities, like the big
online, continuing to grow at arapid pace.
(26:00):
What do you think we need to dodifferent in traditional higher
education?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, I think it's a great question and you have not
only a bird's eye seat but animportant role to play in
helping probably one of the mosttraditional set of institutions
sort of spread their wings.
And I know that that's achallenge of a new chancellor
(26:24):
coming in and a new presidentcoming in.
I'm sorry, president right, andJD Malik is himself an
innovator and I think will be aninteresting partner for you as
you move on.
What we have failed torecognize is that the population
(26:45):
, the potential population ofpurchasers of our services have
changed dramatically in the last50 years, but the structure of
our enterprise hasn't.
So I joked a moment ago aboutnot being able to take classes
between 10 and 4 on Tuesdays andThursdays, between 10 and 4 on
Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Well, you know, the reason wehave so many classes at 10 and 2
(27:10):
Tuesdays and Thursdays isbecause that's what the faculty
wants to do, and it's easier forthe faculty to be able to, you
know, be on campus for two orthree days a week, do their
research, do whatever you knowthe other things are that are
compelling parts of theirprofessional lives and to
essentially force students tolive their lives around the
(27:31):
lives of the administrators andthe faculty on the campus.
I think we have to flip that,and I think that the
institutions that will succeedin the future are institutions
that mold themselves around theneeds of their students.
And so I think, if you look atthe extremes, why does Western
(27:54):
Governors University have122,000 students?
Well, it's because WesternGovernors University understands
that their students who, by theway, their average student age
is just the same as most of theflagship universities, but their
students are able to movethrough their coursework at
(28:15):
their own pace, they're able todo it at a time that fits into
their lives and they are able todo it with intense one-on-one
mentorship that you just frankly, you don't get it.
And so what's not to like abouta model that is focused on
students, not on the adults inthe building wave of learners
(28:48):
for us, who are learners who mayalready have a degree, may not
have a degree, but are lookingto improve their economic
circumstance by getting moretraining, and the institutions
that are finding their way tothose students are the ones that
will succeed.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Well, that is for sure, and one of the changes
that's obviously impacting allof us, personally as well as
professionally and in education,is the tidal wave of artificial
intelligence and its varioususe cases and how it's being
(29:21):
deployed.
And how it's being deployed youand I both make the pilgrimage
to ASU GSV, and you can't helpbut seeing all of the different
technology that's powered by AIbeing put into motion.
So, given that AI is changingthe workforce as we know it and
impacting the skills needed forlearners to be resilient in the
(29:44):
economy, how is yourorganization, how is ACE,
supporting its members toreimagine what higher education
should look like over the next10 years?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, I think it's a great question and certainly a
challenge, and I'll be honestthat, amidst all of this
incoming sort of thinking aboutthe future in any sort of
generative way is a little bitdifficult.
But we do think that AI isgoing to be very important in
three ways.
One is, I think, the most basiclevel.
(30:16):
I think that it willrevolutionize our ability to use
data to help students succeed.
We already saw the front edgeof that in places like Georgia
State, university of Hawaii, acouple of other institutions
that really used early chatbotsand early big data analysis to
intervene in students' liveswhen they needed a hand, and
(30:40):
we're going to see more and moreand more of that.
I think that it's going to.
Ai will revolutionize studentservices, revolutionize
everything from financial aid toadvisement.
I think that that's good.
I think the second thing thatAI is going to do is it will put
power tools in the hands offaculty to be able to create
(31:00):
better courses, to create betterassessments Simulations, for
example, instead of multiplechoice tests but really put
students into experiences wherethey've got to solve problems in
real time, curated by the powerof AI that sets up a
circumstance, changes somethings around so that students
(31:22):
need to adapt, assesses theability of students to solve
that problem.
It's typically the wayengineering programs have worked
, but they've done it with real,pliable materials and we'll be
able to do that in a variety ofways with AI.
And then the third, which Ithink is where this flips a
little bit, is that we then havea responsibility to teach our
(31:42):
students how best to use AI, andthat has two parts to it.
One is how to use ittechnically, how to get AI to do
your work for you, enhance theability to do your work, but it
also means responsibly, and Ithink that that's where I want
(32:05):
to put in a pitch for AI and theresurgence of the humanities.
I think that if we let AI becomea tool of computer scientists
and engineers, we'll get onekind of AI.
I don't think we'll like it,but if we intersperse those
computer scientists with artistsand philosophers, we will have
an AI that isn't aiming to beathumans at our own game, but
(32:27):
really to partner with us Sageadvice, and I hope that we all
take you up on that, because Ithink we are right in the throes
of what the future is going tolook like.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Well, listen, Ted.
Let me ask you one lastquestion before I let you go, so
you can get back to advocatingon behalf of all of us.
What do you want your listenersto know about ACE and its role,
particularly now, in thischaotic environment?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Two things.
One is I hope that yourlisteners, in addition to
following you avidly, I hopethat they will tune into our
live podcast.
That so we call edu, where wetry to do a weekly summary of
the events in Washington, andwe've been heartened to see
5,000 or 6,000 of our colleagueson those.
(33:16):
So please stay in touch andwe'll do our best to keep you
informed, you know.
The other thing that I'll say,Eli, which we haven't had a
chance to talk about, is thatECE has recently taken on the
stewardship of the Carnegieclassifications and we've been
talking throughout about studentsuccess, and I'm really pleased
(33:37):
and hope your listeners willtake a look at the new Carnegie
classifications to see that weare now classifying institutions
on the basis of access andstudent earnings, hopefully
sending a message that that'swhat we want people to focus on
amidst all of this noise.
Is that job, one of makingcollege whether it's community
(33:57):
college or four-year college,graduate school a stable path
towards success?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I'm also very happy to see the new Carnegie
classifications, this notion ofcreating a classification that
highlights opportunityopportunity at colleges and
universities.
They're creating opportunityfor the entire diverse section
of our student bodies andhighlighting that instead of the
(34:26):
previous metrics that we use toclassify institutions.
So I'm heartened by that.
I think it aligns very wellwith my day job, which the work
that we're doing at CollegeFuture is to highlight value and
opportunity, and so I hope thattrend continues.
Listen, Ted, I reallyappreciate your leadership at
ACE.
Appreciate your leadershipthroughout the last several
(34:50):
decades and I look forward tocontinuing to follow your
leadership.
See what ACE is doing and seehow it leads us through this.
I guess what some wouldconsider a dark time, and
hopefully on the other end ofthis will be a much stronger,
much more resilient Americanhigher education system.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Thank you, eli, thanks for your leadership, and
I'm just so proud to be doingthis work together.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
All right, ted.
Thanks for being with us andthanks to our listeners for
tuning in.
This has been the RAND Podcast.
I've been talking with TedMitchell, who heads the American
Council of Education.
If you're following us onYouTube, hit subscribe and if
you're listening to us on audio,continue to follow us on your
favorite podcast platform.
Take care, everybody.
We'll see you all soon.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Thank you.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley.
Welcome back to the RantPodcast, the podcast where we
pull back the curtain and breakdown the people, the policies
and the politics of our highereducation system.
In this episode, I get to talkwith a good friend and colleague
, ted Mitchell.
Ted is the president and CEO ofthe American Council on
(00:32):
Education, ace.
Ace is one of the largesthigher education membership and
advocacy organizations, withroots going back to World War I.
It represents more than 1,700colleges and universities of all
types and across the country.
The membership also includesseveral other advocacy and
(00:56):
membership organizations, suchas my favorite, the American
Association of CommunityColleges, as well as other
well-known associations like theAmerican Association of State
Colleges, as well as otherwell-known associations like the
American Association of StateColleges and Universities and my
least favorite organization,the National Association of
Independent Colleges andUniversities.
I sit down with Ted to talkabout what's happening in higher
(01:19):
education today, how hismembership is holding together
in this moment of crisis for theAmerican higher education
system, how he's thinking aboutthe impact of AI on higher
education going forward and howhe himself is dealing with all
the pressures that the newadministration has brought on to
(01:41):
the American higher educationsystem.
But before I talk with Ted, Ijust want to take a moment to
reflect on this moment in time.
I'm here in California and I'm alifelong Californian.
I've lived through some verydifficult times with regard to
immigration policy here inCalifornia, but this moment,
this moment, seems different.
Watching images of the NationalGuard and US Marines in the
(02:06):
streets of Los Angeles and itsneighboring cities is unsettling
, to say the least.
Not only is it unsettling, it'salso, in my view, dumb politics
and dumb policy.
Dumb policy why?
Because in states likeCalifornia and really nearly all
50 states, states likeCalifornia, illinois, new York,
(02:27):
florida, north Carolina,tennessee the list goes on and
on and on there are hardworkingimmigrants living in those
communities and, yes, in somecases they fled their countries
of origin to come to the UnitedStates, some through legal means
countries of origin to come tothe United States, some through
(02:48):
legal means, some throughnon-legal means.
But they are here to work hardand to serve our communities and
they're a huge part of oureconomy.
Think about the debate we'rehaving over deportations of
agricultural workers.
Think about what would happento the agricultural industry if
we suddenly started massdeportations.
It would fall apart.
It is dumb policy.
Good policy is going aftercriminals that nobody wants in
(03:13):
this country, people who aredoing bad things to good people,
doing bad things to our economy.
There's no argument there.
There's no argument there.
And to get Congress to actuallyenact fair and good immigration
policy that gives a path forwardto hardworking Americans who
(03:35):
may have come here through othermeans other than those
currently codified in statute.
It's also bad politics becausethese people may or may not
become full citizens at somepoint.
They're going to remember thismoment.
The people around them familymembers, friends, the people who
(03:56):
work side by side with them aregoing to remember this moment.
If the administration wouldtake a chapter out of the Reagan
administration and find a pathforward for many of these
immigrants, they would reap thebenefit for years to come.
Instead, they are turning themaway in droves, getting them
(04:16):
angry and making this anunwelcoming country to
immigrants.
So it is bad policy and it isbad politics to immigrants.
So it is bad policy and it isbad politics.
So for those reasons, I and mycolleagues at College Future
continue to push forward, topush back on these policies and
remind policymakers of theimportance of creating
(04:37):
opportunity for thoseindividuals that work hard every
day in our communities and togive people an opportunity or a
path forward to citizenship anda right to live, work and
breathe and reap the benefits ofthis country.
That's what this country wasbuilt on and that's still a huge
(04:59):
part of the American dream.
So with that, please enjoy myconversation with Ted Mitchell,
who heads the American Councilon Education.
Ted, welcome to the Rantpodcast.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Thank you so much for having me.
Good to see you.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
It's always great to see you, ted.
I hope you're survivingWashington DC these days and I
just want to say thanks fortaking the time out of your busy
schedule to join us here on theRant.
I know there's a lot going onnot just in higher education but
all across the country and allacross the world, so it's
exciting times these days.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
How have you been?
I've been great and I have totell you this is the high point
of my day, week and maybe mymonth to talk to a great
colleague, a good friend, and toget a little perspective on all
of this craziness.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Well, we will certainly talk.
I don't know if I'll add muchperspective, but we can
certainly have a therapy session.
Love it.
So, Ted, you lead the AmericanCouncil on Education.
It's the nation's best knownhigher education membership and
advocacy organization, has along, long history.
Many leaders in highereducation, many of our listeners
(06:12):
, know about ACE but don'treally understand what you do
there.
So, for our listeners, tell usabout the history of ACE, the
mission and how you support theneeds of your diverse membership
(06:40):
.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
We've sent all these, mostly young men, abroad in
service of America.
They're coming back and we'renot sure that there's room in
American colleges anduniversities for them.
So we started in a way as aveteran service organization,
making it possible for veteransof World War I to attend
(07:00):
colleges and universities.
Making room in Americancolleges and universities and
really that's been the heartbeatof ACE from the beginning is
providing opportunities forthose who typically don't have
opportunities to enroll in andsucceed through the very best
American colleges.
So we've consistently worked toexpand opportunity.
(07:23):
The GI Bill we were one of thechief architects of the GI Bill.
We built the GED exam early onto provide opportunity for
people who weren't yetcompleting high school.
And then, more recently, hardwork on the Civil Rights Act,
title IX other things that haveexpanded opportunity.
(07:43):
Now, eli, as you and I know,opportunity is one thing,
success is another, and so we'vehad to couple our focus on
access with a focus on creatingopportunities for students to
thrive in their colleges anduniversities.
So HELL grants effectivestudent loan programs.
That's all been a part of ourfederal policy portfolio.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Ted, tell us about your membership.
What does your membership looklike?
Who are the members of ACE andhow do you actually get the
business of ACE done?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, it's a great question.
We do represent all sectors, sotwo-year, four-year, public and
private, and so that means thatour members come from small
community colleges in ruralareas, major flagship research
universities, and one of ourchallenges is creating, out of
(08:40):
that great diversity, sort of acentralized position on
important policy issues.
And that's really our work isto bring people together to
identify issues of commonimportance, either positive or
negative.
Fight for those things that wethink will make a positive
difference, fight against thosethings that we think will be
(09:00):
harmful.
And you know, I have to saythat I've been doing this job
now for eight years and whilesome of us think of the sectors
as very divided and having verydiscontinuous interests, my
experience has been the reverseHigher ed sticks together,
especially in times of crisis,and we're in one of those right
now.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
We are certainly in one of those right now and it's
good to hear that highereducation is coming together.
All the organizations that makeup ACE it's interesting, you
know, over time those of us inthe two-year sector I'm sure
look at some of the more orbetter resourced private
(09:43):
universities that are part ofthe ACE membership and have our
differences.
But at a time like this itseems to me that attack on one
is an attack on all.
So hopefully that's theattitude of the membership of
ACE?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
It certainly is, and I think that there are headline
issues of just the in the lastlittle bit, the headline issues
around immigration, issues ofjust the in the last little bit,
the headline issues aroundimmigration the delay in visas,
the treatment of domesticstudents who may not have full
documentation.
All of these are issues thatreally impact every institution
(10:19):
back and forth, across fromelite private institutions Some
of them, I think I've started tocall celebrity institutions,
because they can't seem to stopthemselves from being in the
news, you know all the way downto the institutions that I think
are the bread and butter ofAmerican higher education, which
are community colleges andregional publics, where the
(10:41):
majority of our students live,work and, hopefully, prosper.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Well, that's right.
Your membership, as youmentioned, includes a wide
variety of institutions and Iknow you mentioned your advocacy
role and I've certainly readyour comments recently regarding
the budget proposal that madeits way out of the House and
it's moving on to the Senate.
Given the barrage of executiveorders and attacks and
(11:12):
congressional action that'staking place right now, how do
you manage that broad spectrumof needs across your membership
and advocate on behalf of all ofus in higher education.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, that's my day job, so thank you for noting it.
You know there are places whereyou have to lean a little bit.
So there was quite a greatconversation going on now about
the federal support for research.
I think, unambiguously, we allbelieve that research is
important to the future ofsociety technological progress,
(11:47):
biomedical advances, et cetera.
They don't come from thin air.
They come from the hard work ofour research universities.
So, as you said earlier, we allhave an interest in that.
But the interest of a bigresearch university is different
than the interest of a smallliberal arts college in that
regard, and so I think we canlead with a group that is most
(12:11):
impacted to make sure thateverybody else is providing
moral and advocacy support.
So we have a lot of supportfrom community college members
for continuing research in themajor research universities, and
I'm very proud of the communitycolleges' willingness to do
that.
On the other side, I think thatwe know that community colleges
(12:34):
are beginning not beginningcontinuing to offer shorter
degrees, shorter programs andcertificates.
Right, and it's very importantto the community college sector
to be able to have a Pell Grantprogram that meets the needs of
those students, and so thecommunity colleges are leading
on that one, but we're pullingall of the other sectors in
(12:56):
behind, saying that this isgoing to be important for all of
us.
So there may be a leader, butas long as we can organize
followers, I think we'll be ingood shape.
And then, as I mentioned, withimmigration, there are issues
that just cut across everybody'slife.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yes, that's for sure, particularly in states like
mine, California, and otherstates that rely so heavily on
the immigrant population.
I mean, that is our economy inCalifornia and if you're not an
immigrant yourself, first orsecond generation immigrant,
whether you're fully documentedor not, that's a big part of our
(13:34):
communities and members of thecommunities have friends,
neighbors, family members whoare touched by this.
And it's just amazing to me howthe administration is looking
at this and really underminingthe economies of the biggest
states in the country andtherefore ultimately undermining
the economy of the biggeststates in the country and
therefore ultimately underminingthe economy of the country.
(13:54):
So we'll see where this allcomes together at some point.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You know, uli, if I can interject, I think that's
absolutely right, and one of thethings that I find encouraging
is that in unlikely places likethe state of Texas, there has
been broad recognition of theimportance of educating an
immigrant and first and secondgeneration population to serve
(14:24):
the needs of one of the mostdynamic economies in the country
.
One of the most dynamiceconomies in the country, and it
seems to me that we need towork hard at getting that
message through, and there maybe parts of the country that
aren't as directly I want to say, both reliant and benefit from
the richness of the immigrantpopulation.
(14:46):
There are a lot of people inpretty conservative states who
kind of get it that this is thefuture of the state and if
demographics are destiny, webetter do our job with people
who don't look like me.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
So.
I had a couple of yourcolleagues on recently.
I had John King from the StateUniversity of New York on and
also had Janet Napolitano,former president of UC.
Of course, both of them alsospent some time in the Obama
administration along with you.
(15:23):
They express deep frustrationover an issue that you just
mentioned the recent moves bythe administration to gut
research funding, basic researchfunding across the country and
across Research 1 universities.
The impact on innovation andour competitive edge in the
(15:46):
world, they express, will besignificantly stunted, if not
completely undermined.
What are you hearing from yourmembers about this issue?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
And how are you advocating to Congress to
reverse these actions?
Yeah, I think it is one of thesingle worst policy initiatives
of this administration, becauseit has both short-term and
long-term impacts.
The short-term impact is thatJohns Hopkins University had to
lay off 2,000 people who weredoing work in international
(16:22):
development.
The University of California hasalready put in a hiring freeze,
so it's having a short-termimpact on the work that's going
on, and let's remember that alot of that research is
time-sensitive.
So we know colleagues who areworking in labs that depend on
cultures that are growing intest tubes, and if you're
(16:43):
freezing the funding, you'regetting rid of all that research
.
So who knows which cancer curejust went down the drain at UC
Riverside as a result of thesefreezes?
And then, long term, not onlyare we depriving ourselves of
these scientific discoveries,but we're depriving ourselves of
the next generation ofscientists whose training is
(17:06):
being interrupted by thesegrants.
So, short-term and long-term,this is nutty policy.
It's also bad internationalpolitics, because we're already
seeing some of the nation's bestresearchers moving their labs
to Europe, canada, to Australia,where they're being received
with a warm embrace and a lot ofstartup money.
(17:28):
So I just think that this isawful.
What are we doing?
We're doing a couple of things.
First, and I think the mostimportant, is that we're trying
to demonstrate to theadministration pain, long-term
and short, that these cuts areputting on our people.
(17:49):
And I think when the government, in its short-sighted way,
thinks about research, theythink about giant labs and
cyclotrons and big telescopes.
Well, that's one kind ofresearch let's go down to.
You know, let's talk to ourfriends at San Luis Obispo about
(18:11):
the research that's fundedthere, that is, examining health
disparities in their communityand using research funding to be
able to direct funds to supportpeople who don't have access to
health us to help.
(18:32):
So we need to remind Congressand we need to remind the
executive branch that when wetalk about research, we're also
talking about direct services topeople, and that's why.
Second is you know, likeanything else, the way the
government funds research is old.
The current funding mechanismwas developed in 1992.
It probably deserves a refresh.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So, in the words of Bill Clinton, we're trying to
reform the policies aroundresearch and trying to suggest
to Congress different ways ofsupporting research that we hope
will have some traction thatwill not throw the baby out with
the bathwater.
Beyond the political challengesthat every higher education
institution is feeling thesedays, there's also been
measurable decline in theconfidence of our institutions,
and this has been going onbefore the administration.
How is ACE thinking aboutimproving the value proposition
(19:32):
of higher education andimproving the image of colleges
and universities in the mind ofthe public?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, it's a really important and basic question and
, eli, I think you'll rememberbecause you were on the ACE
board when I was interviewingfor this job, and one of the
things we talked about even thenwas the negative narrative that
was emerging around highereducation.
And you know, I think, thatwe're proud of the work that we
(19:58):
do in higher ed, and so I thinkour first, second and third
attempts to stem that flow ofnegative imagery was to talk
louder and make better videos ofthe work that we're doing.
For those of your listeners whoare sports fans, I have the
image of those halftime videosthat everybody puts up in NCAA
(20:21):
football games, which I don'tthink have had an impact on
anyone in the universe sincethey were first minted.
But yeah, you know we like totell the good story, and so we
tried that for a long time andit didn't work.
And then I think we've begun toget serious.
In the time that you were inthe Biden administration, we got
serious about looking at someof the real shortcomings in
(20:45):
higher education and say, well,wait a minute, american people
aren't stupid.
If they really think we'redoing something wrong, maybe we
minute.
American people aren't stupidIf they've got.
If they really think we'redoing something wrong, maybe we
are, let's look for it.
Maybe we are here.
We are here we are.
I think we got a load of it andit came a lot faster than we
can manage it.
But you know things that you'veworked on in your career, that
(21:06):
you worked on in theadministration completion rates.
Let's just take that oneCompletion rates at four-year
universities, 100% of thestudents who show up want a
degree.
That's why they're out there atour front door.
Only 60 out of the 100 who showup get a degree.
Is that a good thing?
Well, for a long time we justthought of that.
(21:29):
Well, you know, is that a goodthing?
Well, for a long time we justthought of that.
Well, you know 40% of thepeople.
They just couldn't hack it.
And we now know that it's notabout whether they could hack it
or not.
It's about whether they couldafford it, whether their family
circumstances and lifecircumstances allowed them to
take classes between 10 and 4 onTuesdays and Thursdays.
And we learned that that lowcompletion rate was a stain on
(21:52):
all of us.
And what's new is that everyone of those 40 out of 100 who
didn't graduate now has a giantmegaphone that we call social
media.
Right, and they are makingtheir upset note, and it's not
just to Uncle Fred at theMemorial Day barbecue, it's to
(22:12):
the 10,000 people who arefollowing them on one variety of
social media right now.
So I think we've come tounderstand that we've earned
some of the disrespect we'rebeing treated with.
The admissions process in eliteuniversities is the opposite of
transparent.
It's a game and you've got topay to play, and not just in the
(22:41):
varsity blues angle of it.
People who are more affluentpeople who are legacies, they
have a leg up.
More affluent people who arelegacies, they have a leg up.
And you know, it just says topeople it's not for me.
So I think that we've becomemore honest over the last, I
would say, five years, and Iwant to compliment you and the
(23:01):
Biden administration not gettinga lot of compliments these days
, but you really did shine alight on some of the ways in
which higher education didn'tserve a broad swath of American
society.
And so what we've been doing atACE and this goes back to your
very early questions what is itthat could bring higher
(23:25):
education together around thisnegative narrative?
So what's the?
You've got researchinstitutions over here.
You've got community collegesand other trade institutions
that are focusing on trades andcareers.
What's the common denominator?
The common denominator isundergraduate student education,
and so we have been on acampaign we call it Higher Ed
(23:49):
Builds America to get everybodyin the country who is engaged in
higher education to focus onjob number one, and job number
one is student success.
So we're pushing as hard as wecan to get institutions to
commit to broad access at thefront end, but then hard, hard
(24:11):
work all the way through astudent's career, to help them
succeed and walk across thatplatform with an AA, with a
certificate, with a BA, with amaster's degree, and make sure
that they're equipped withskills and habits of mind that
will set them up in the neweconomy.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I hope all of our colleagues across higher
education ecosystem hear thatcall and come together to work
together to improve the valueproposition, because the
direction we're going is notgood for anyone.
And speaking of things notgoing well, I was at your former
institution, occidental, nottoo long ago and I've been
(24:51):
visiting a lot of differentcolleges and universities, sort
of hearing their thoughts aboutwhat's going on.
You've been in higher educationa long time, you've been in the
UC system, you have led aprivate university over at
Occidental, you've been theundersecretary and now you're
over at ACE.
(25:12):
There seems to be thiscontinuous downward spiral in
the business model oftraditional higher education
institutions, and you knowthere's a variety of reasons.
But what do you see as thesolution for traditional higher
education institutions?
I mean, we all read theheadlines here in california,
(25:37):
the cal state system is goingthrough some significant crisis.
Uh, one, one could say thatit's a existential crisis.
In the CSU, a lot of privatenonprofits are closing their
doors and there's concern aboutenrollments.
And then you see otheruniversities, like the big
online, continuing to grow at arapid pace.
(26:00):
What do you think we need to dodifferent in traditional higher
education?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, I think it's a great question and you have not
only a bird's eye seat but animportant role to play in
helping probably one of the mosttraditional set of institutions
sort of spread their wings.
And I know that that's achallenge of a new chancellor
(26:24):
coming in and a new presidentcoming in.
I'm sorry, president right, andJD Malik is himself an
innovator and I think will be aninteresting partner for you as
you move on.
What we have failed torecognize is that the population
(26:45):
, the potential population ofpurchasers of our services have
changed dramatically in the last50 years, but the structure of
our enterprise hasn't.
So I joked a moment ago aboutnot being able to take classes
between 10 and 4 on Tuesdays andThursdays, between 10 and 4 on
Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Well, you know, the reason wehave so many classes at 10 and 2
(27:10):
Tuesdays and Thursdays isbecause that's what the faculty
wants to do, and it's easier forthe faculty to be able to, you
know, be on campus for two orthree days a week, do their
research, do whatever you knowthe other things are that are
compelling parts of theirprofessional lives and to
essentially force students tolive their lives around the
(27:31):
lives of the administrators andthe faculty on the campus.
I think we have to flip that,and I think that the
institutions that will succeedin the future are institutions
that mold themselves around theneeds of their students.
And so I think, if you look atthe extremes, why does Western
(27:54):
Governors University have122,000 students?
Well, it's because WesternGovernors University understands
that their students who, by theway, their average student age
is just the same as most of theflagship universities, but their
students are able to movethrough their coursework at
(28:15):
their own pace, they're able todo it at a time that fits into
their lives and they are able todo it with intense one-on-one
mentorship that you just frankly, you don't get it.
And so what's not to like abouta model that is focused on
students, not on the adults inthe building wave of learners
(28:48):
for us, who are learners who mayalready have a degree, may not
have a degree, but are lookingto improve their economic
circumstance by getting moretraining, and the institutions
that are finding their way tothose students are the ones that
will succeed.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Well, that is for sure, and one of the changes
that's obviously impacting allof us, personally as well as
professionally and in education,is the tidal wave of artificial
intelligence and its varioususe cases and how it's being
(29:21):
deployed.
And how it's being deployed youand I both make the pilgrimage
to ASU GSV, and you can't helpbut seeing all of the different
technology that's powered by AIbeing put into motion.
So, given that AI is changingthe workforce as we know it and
impacting the skills needed forlearners to be resilient in the
(29:44):
economy, how is yourorganization, how is ACE,
supporting its members toreimagine what higher education
should look like over the next10 years?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, I think it's a great question and certainly a
challenge, and I'll be honestthat, amidst all of this
incoming sort of thinking aboutthe future in any sort of
generative way is a little bitdifficult.
But we do think that AI isgoing to be very important in
three ways.
One is, I think, the most basiclevel.
(30:16):
I think that it willrevolutionize our ability to use
data to help students succeed.
We already saw the front edgeof that in places like Georgia
State, university of Hawaii, acouple of other institutions
that really used early chatbotsand early big data analysis to
intervene in students' liveswhen they needed a hand, and
(30:40):
we're going to see more and moreand more of that.
I think that it's going to.
Ai will revolutionize studentservices, revolutionize
everything from financial aid toadvisement.
I think that that's good.
I think the second thing thatAI is going to do is it will put
power tools in the hands offaculty to be able to create
(31:00):
better courses, to create betterassessments Simulations, for
example, instead of multiplechoice tests but really put
students into experiences wherethey've got to solve problems in
real time, curated by the powerof AI that sets up a
circumstance, changes somethings around so that students
(31:22):
need to adapt, assesses theability of students to solve
that problem.
It's typically the wayengineering programs have worked
, but they've done it with real,pliable materials and we'll be
able to do that in a variety ofways with AI.
And then the third, which Ithink is where this flips a
little bit, is that we then havea responsibility to teach our
(31:42):
students how best to use AI, andthat has two parts to it.
One is how to use ittechnically, how to get AI to do
your work for you, enhance theability to do your work, but it
also means responsibly, and Ithink that that's where I want
(32:05):
to put in a pitch for AI and theresurgence of the humanities.
I think that if we let AI becomea tool of computer scientists
and engineers, we'll get onekind of AI.
I don't think we'll like it,but if we intersperse those
computer scientists with artistsand philosophers, we will have
an AI that isn't aiming to beathumans at our own game, but
(32:27):
really to partner with us Sageadvice, and I hope that we all
take you up on that, because Ithink we are right in the throes
of what the future is going tolook like.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Well, listen, Ted.
Let me ask you one lastquestion before I let you go, so
you can get back to advocatingon behalf of all of us.
What do you want your listenersto know about ACE and its role,
particularly now, in thischaotic environment?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Two things.
One is I hope that yourlisteners, in addition to
following you avidly, I hopethat they will tune into our
live podcast.
That so we call edu, where wetry to do a weekly summary of
the events in Washington, andwe've been heartened to see
5,000 or 6,000 of our colleagueson those.
(33:16):
So please stay in touch andwe'll do our best to keep you
informed, you know.
The other thing that I'll say,Eli, which we haven't had a
chance to talk about, is thatECE has recently taken on the
stewardship of the Carnegieclassifications and we've been
talking throughout about studentsuccess, and I'm really pleased
(33:37):
and hope your listeners willtake a look at the new Carnegie
classifications to see that weare now classifying institutions
on the basis of access andstudent earnings, hopefully
sending a message that that'swhat we want people to focus on
amidst all of this noise.
Is that job, one of makingcollege whether it's community
(33:57):
college or four-year college,graduate school a stable path
towards success?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I'm also very happy to see the new Carnegie
classifications, this notion ofcreating a classification that
highlights opportunityopportunity at colleges and
universities.
They're creating opportunityfor the entire diverse section
of our student bodies andhighlighting that instead of the
(34:26):
previous metrics that we use toclassify institutions.
So I'm heartened by that.
I think it aligns very wellwith my day job, which the work
that we're doing at CollegeFuture is to highlight value and
opportunity, and so I hope thattrend continues.
Listen, Ted, I reallyappreciate your leadership at
ACE.
Appreciate your leadershipthroughout the last several
(34:50):
decades and I look forward tocontinuing to follow your
leadership.
See what ACE is doing and seehow it leads us through this.
I guess what some wouldconsider a dark time, and
hopefully on the other end ofthis will be a much stronger,
much more resilient Americanhigher education system.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Thank you, eli, thanks for your leadership, and
I'm just so proud to be doingthis work together.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
All right, ted.
Thanks for being with us andthanks to our listeners for
tuning in.
This has been the RAND Podcast.
I've been talking with TedMitchell, who heads the American
Council of Education.
If you're following us onYouTube, hit subscribe and if
you're listening to us on audio,continue to follow us on your
favorite podcast platform.
Take care, everybody.
We'll see you all soon.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com