October 1, 2024 • 35 mins
Discover a groundbreaking approach to teacher education as Dr. Mallory Palish, former chancellor of REACH University and CEO of Craft Education, unveils her innovative solutions to the pressing challenges in academia. This episode promises to enlighten listeners on how REACH University’s apprenticeship model is bridging the gap between higher education and the teacher labor market. Learn how this model enables future educators to earn their degrees through a combination of evening and weekend Zoom classes and practical on-the-job experience, all while minimizing student loan debt.
Gain insights into how REACH University’s flexible schedule and affordable structure are empowering students to balance work, childcare, and studies seamlessly. The discussion also touches on the critical role of schools in nominating students for teaching positions upon graduation, drastically improving retention and job placement rates.
Explore the broader implications of teaching apprenticeships in the U.S., as Dr. Palish highlights both the triumphs and obstacles faced by different states. From the economic mobility offered to mid-career paraprofessionals and recent high school graduates to the systemic issues of teacher pay and support, this episode addresses the multifaceted nature of teacher education reform. Through engaging anecdotes and professional insights, Dr. Palish underscores the necessity for adaptable and experienced educators in shaping the future of our education system.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hi, this is Hilo Ortiz-Oakley.
Welcome back to the RANDPodcast, the podcast that pulls
back the curtain and breaks downthe people, the policies and
the politics of our highereducation system.
Welcome back.
In this episode I sit down withDr Mallory Palash, former
chancellor of REACH Universityand CEO and co-founder of Kraft
(00:33):
Education.
Since we recorded this episode,there's been some new
developments.
Kraft Education has beenacquired by Western Governors
University, so Dr Palash and herteam will team up with the WGU
team and bring a new emphasis ofapprenticeship and workplace
learning models to WesternGovernors University.
(00:56):
This is an exciting newdevelopment because, as you'll
hear from my interview with DrPalish, her and her team have
specialized in bringingapprenticeship and work-based
learning models to teachereducation and, as many of you
know, WGU provides a teachereducation pipeline.
So the two combined should bean exciting new development for
(01:19):
adult learners throughout thecountry.
And with that backdrop, pleaseenjoy my conversation with Dr
Mallory Palish.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley,and welcome back to the Rant,
the podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with the Chancellor of
(01:42):
REACH University and theco-founder of Craft Education
System, Mallory Dwinnell-Pallish.
I talk with Mallory about howREACH University is innovating
in the teacher education spaceand using an apprenticeship
model to support more learners.
I also get to get Mallory'sthoughts on the state of teacher
(02:04):
education today.
So with that quick introduction, Mallory, welcome to the Rant.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Eloy, it's great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, it's great to have you Appreciate you taking
the time out of your busyschedule.
I know you have a lot going onand we have a lot to talk about.
I think REACH University isdoing a lot of great work and I
know our listeners would like tolearn more about what you're
doing.
So let's start there.
Why don't you tell us aboutREACH University and the craft
(02:35):
education system, and whatinspired you to get these
teacher education pathwaysstarted?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So what could be more inspirational than a PhD
program?
She said very sarcastically.
I started out as an academic.
I did my.
PhD in teacher labor marketmodeling and I saw two big
challenges came up that over andover again that led to the
launch of Reach and DeCrafttoday.
The first was that highereducation itself was
(03:06):
fundamentally misaligned withwhat the teacher labor market
required.
Teacher labor is highlylocalized.
It is not fungible by subjectarea, by geography, from where
there'll be teachers to go gettrained in a specific subject
(03:27):
area or credential, without anyfeedback from the labor market
as to whether that is thecredential that they will need
and then travel back, hope theyfind a match and that then
somehow the state set pay scalewhich is very modest for
teachers will pay off everappreciating student loans.
There was a fundamentalmismatch between higher
education and the workforcelabor market there, and so that
was the first big challenge.
(03:47):
The second big challenge thatcame up over and over again was
and to the degree that we'reever on track, how do we even
know?
Because the data around thesesystems was such a black box
that trying to do any meaningfulmodeling or analysis for
policymakers around supply anddemand mismatch, around
incentives that were getting theROI that they wanted, we were
completely shooting in the darkand hoping that we hit the
(04:10):
bullseye.
And so that was many, manyyears ago.
I, after that, left and becamea teacher, became a school
leader and felt those exact samestrains over and over again,
from the lens of being aclassroom teacher and then as a
school principal, trying to hiremy classroom teachers, and so
ultimately launched ReachUniversity, which is now a
regionally accredited nonprofituniversity that operates in four
(04:34):
states in America, servingabout 2,000 apprentices.
And there's only one thing wedo, which is we take adults who
want to become teachers and whohave the ability to work in a
school with students that theywill eventually become the
teachers to and to turn that jobinto an apprenticeship that
confers college credits andallows them to graduate not only
(04:55):
not taking on student loan debt, but getting paid to earn that
degree, working with thestudents, the faculty and the
leadership that they willultimately become colleagues to
and to do all of that knowingthe whole time that they're
getting trained in the exactsubject area, in the exact grade
level that that school willneed them to be once they
graduate.
So that's what REACH does.
(05:15):
The last thing I'll say is whereCRAFT comes in is as we started
this work, we saw we were goingto have a very challenging
issue ahead of us, which cameback to this data piece.
The Department of Educationthat oversees higher ed has one
very particular set of reportingrequirements to remain an
accredited institution, as dostate teacher credentialing
boards.
But if you're going to becomean apprenticeship provider, you
(05:38):
now also have to report out moreor less the same content, but
in structurally different waysto the Department of Labor, and
anyone out here has everwondered if government
bureaucracies and silos areefficient and integrated.
I'm here to tell youdefinitively they're not, and so
Craft was our tool that webuilt first in-house for us, but
(05:59):
that is now available to anyinstitution that wants to offer
apprenticeship degrees.
That basically serves as thetranslator of collecting that
data and then translating it toDepartment of Ed language and to
Department of Labor language,so that we don't have to waste
our time doing that and we canfocus on building great teachers
.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
That's a great backdrop to some of our other
questions.
So you talked a lot aboutfinding adults, getting adults
into the right program, gettingthem aligned in the labor market
, helping schools find thoseteachers.
Where do you find your learnersand how do they find you at
(06:38):
REACH University?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Oh, this is foundational to our model, so
where we find our learners.
Actually, your second questionanswers it it's first they find
us, but it's not your normal B2Cuniversity right, business to
consumer, where someone says Iwant to be a teacher, so I'm
going to go to Reach Universityand that's how I enroll.
Reach University is a B2Bpartner, so we partner with
(07:01):
school districts business tobusiness, okay.
And we ask them to tell us twothings.
One, what are the vacanciesthat you're perpetually
struggling to fill Right, maybenow, but maybe also over the
next few years?
And they usually come up with alist of these five special
education positions, these 10STEM positions, and it comes to
a total list of however manystudents.
Let's say, it comes to 25vacancies that they perpetually
(07:22):
struggle to fill.
The second thing we ask them isgreat, tell me the 25 people
working in your building rightnow as tutor, as a classroom aid
, as an after-schoolinstructional volunteer, who are
working with your kids everyday, who you've seen in action,
who you know could be greatteachers if they had a college
degree.
They tell us those two thingsright, the vacancies they need
(07:43):
filled and the people alreadyworking in their building who
they think could do a great jobfilling them.
We then notify thoseindividuals you've been
nominated to come to thisinstitution.
That is more or less thebeginning and the end of our
application process.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
They have to have a.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
GED or a high school degree equivalent, and they have
to be over the age of 18, andthey have to submit two writing
samples that we can use tofigure out how much support they
need, but not whether or not toadmit them.
That's it, that's our entireapplication process, and what we
see is that when thoseindividuals are nominated by
their school because theirschool says not just I think you
could be a teacher, but says Ihave a position that I am
(08:20):
waiting for you to come fill,those folks come flocking in.
And I think the last thing Iwould say about this that's
important to know is the orderof magnitudes here.
So, on any given year, we needabout 160,000 to 300,000,
depending whose stats you use ofclassroom vacancies where a
classroom is being led bysomeone who's not appropriately
(08:42):
credentialed or qualified.
There are 1.3 million peoplecurrently serving as
paraprofessionals in our schools, and when you include that
broader lens of tutors,dedicated aides, et cetera, that
number about doubles.
And so, just as an order ofmagnitude, if we take just the
top 10 to 20% of those peopleworking in those roles whose
(09:03):
school leaders are saying I havewatched this person go in and
just light kids up, get themexcited about learning.
Support them.
I want them to be a teacher.
We take that cream of the cropand we upskill them to fill the
specific vacancies that thoseschool leaders are struggling
with, and you have a recipe toend teacher shortages at scale.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You clearly identified one of the challenges
that we see across the countrywith regard to teacher education
this misalignment between thekind of credentials that a
school might need and the kindof credentials that teachers
have in those schools.
Where does that problem stemfrom, and do you see states that
are improving that alignment?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah, the problem does arise from this
mismatch of how we think abouthigher education versus what we
know about the labor workforce.
And over half of these peopleare teaching within 20 miles of
(10:12):
where they grew up and wherethey went to school themselves.
So when you take those thingstogether, what you're looking at
is people who are going to goto going to go teach near where
they grew up and who are notgoing to move for new job
opportunities because they'renot the primary breadwinner.
So let's talk about thechallenge that creates.
What we know is that which zipcode you were born in
(10:33):
dramatically predicts thelikelihood of you going to
college, which is a requirementto the teacher, and so we see
this sort of never-endingquicksand and cycle of
communities that don't producelarge numbers of college
graduates, especially in urbanand in rural areas.
There is a massive challengewith being able to develop their
(10:55):
own local teacher labor supply,and it is equally challenging
to attract people who are notfrom that community to come in
and be teachers.
So that is the challenge ofwhat the workforce needs, for
teacher labor is fundamentallydifferent than what universities
want, right?
Right, teacher labor requires avery decentralized, localized
approach.
Universities until recently.
(11:16):
With the rise of onlinelearning, had this idea of
you're going to come fromwherever you are, come in, live
in residence with us, farremoved from that community, and
then what you do afterwards isyour business.
Those two things liveorthogonal to one another.
That does not work.
So now to your question of sowhat are states doing around
this that we're seeing get thebest results?
(11:37):
States that are investing.
Every single state in Americahas a structural teacher
shortage right now.
So there's no state that iscompletely out of the woods, and
states that are especiallyrural are struggling the most.
From there, the states that aremaking the most headway are the
ones that are investing inthese.
Grow your own approaches,whether it's through
apprenticeship, whether it isthrough sending students from
(12:01):
Educators, rising or other highschool programs away on the
promise that if they come backthey'll pay for college, on the
promise that if they come backthey'll pay for college.
Those strategies that are meantto address that localized
market are doing the most,though no state is out of the
woods yet and every state islooking at a structural shortage
.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Wow.
So let's talk aboutspecifically the REACH
University approach.
You mentioned apprenticeships.
You mentioned theapprenticeship model as you talk
about teacher education.
That's not something we're usedto hearing about when we think
about teacher education.
How does your model work?
How do you get a student fromcoming in to reach university to
(12:41):
that credential and to beingplaced in that position in a
school district?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So there are five defining features of the
apprenticeship degree thatdistinguish it from the
traditional experience.
So, as mentioned from thebeginning, it starts as a B2B
experience.
Right A district says tosomeone that they have already
seen up close in person, asculture fit has the raw
potential, they enroll thatstudent in REACH University,
(13:08):
that apprentice in REACHUniversity, from there.
Those five defining featuresare number one flexibility, so
this idea that they don't haveto compete with work or with
school.
We have a rule that student forus classes are held online on
Zoom on evenings and weekends sothat students are to arrange
(13:29):
childcare.
They never have to miss workand don't need private
transportation.
Number two for us is efficiency.
So those classes they have totake, they're actually only 50
percent of the full degree.
Our learners actually getanother 50 percent of their
credits and their credit hoursfrom the job itself, from going
and working every day on the jobas a para, which means that
(13:50):
they can work full-time, theycan go to school full-time and
they can do those things at thesame time without conflict
between them in terms of time ofday or total hours required.
Thing number three for us isrelevance.
So when they go into theironline Zoom classes.
They are taught by an experteducator, so all of our
instructors are people who'vebeen K-12 teachers themselves.
(14:11):
About a quarter of ourinstructors have been teachers
of the year or principal of theyear in their respective state.
So, incredibly high caliberinstructors bring together
people in this setting and say,hey, we're talking about
childhood development.
And today you went and workedin a classroom of first and
second graders, a first andsecond grader split.
(14:31):
What was the same with what wehear in our theory should be
happening?
What was different from whattheory would predict?
And why does that matter?
How is that going to changewhat you go do tomorrow?
So there's this constant,immediate, real-time feedback
between theory and practice thatis navigated by people who have
a track record of success inthat same setting as a classroom
(14:52):
teacher.
Number four for us isaffordability.
So we braid together Pell,registered apprenticeship
dollars and then any otherfunding that a state might have
towards its teacher shortagemechanisms, so that we can make
the promise that there's no costto the district other than it
continuing to pay the salary itwas already paying that
individual.
And our students paid $75 amonth.
(15:13):
What that means for ourstudents is that they're not
only not taking on student loandebt, but they're actually
getting paid to earn theircollege degree without us ever
charging big fines or fees toemployers or any other partners.
And then the fifth and finalpiece kind of brings us back
from where we started, which isprofessional capital and in
particular, this idea that weare not just bringing someone in
(15:37):
to train them to become ateacher and hope they find a job
.
These apprentices are goingthrough our program knowing that
their school nominated them sothat when they graduate they
fill a specific position in thebuilding.
So those are the fivedifferentiating features for us
of flexibility, efficiency,relevance, affordability and
professional capital that we seethat you can't pick and choose.
(15:59):
You have to bring all of themtogether.
You bring all five together.
We see fundamentally differentoutcomes in terms of the
diversity of candidates who arerecruited into the program,
their retention through theprogram and their performance in
the job after they graduate.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
You mentioned the financing model behind all this.
I mean, certainly forlow-income learners, there's
access to Pell and you make thatavailable since you're an
accredited institution, title IVeligible.
But you also mentioned beingable to access dollars that are
earmarked for apprenticeship.
I think that opens up a wholeother avenue of support for the
(16:37):
school, for the school district,for the learner.
That's really a novel approachto this.
I think it's something that weall can learn from.
There's so much talk aboutapprenticeship throughout the
country and so much push tocreate apprenticeship models in
what we would consider, in theUnited States, non-traditional
pathways outside of the buildingtrades or other places where
(17:00):
we're used to seeingapprenticeship models.
Do you see this idea ofapprenticeship and teacher
education catching on, or how doyou see the teaching industry
thinking about this?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Absolutely.
So.
We're seeing massive momentumand a critical juncture where we
need to decide, particularly inthe higher education world, if
we're going to meet the call ornot.
So, to start with the momentum,in 2020, when REACH University
was first accredited as a fullundergraduate graduate program,
there was arguably one statethat had any kind of teacher
(17:35):
apprenticeships, and that wasNew York.
But even that was sort ofliving at the periphery in terms
of drawing funding.
In 2022, tennessee came in andset up the first what's called
OA Federally RegisteredApprenticeship for Teaching, and
if you flash forward today,there are now around 40 states
that have at least one teachingapprenticeship registered in
their state.
(17:56):
So we're seeing massivemomentum.
Red states, blue states, urban,rural we are seeing incredible
momentum because of the efficacythis approach has in filling
those gaps that we mentionedbefore are a fundamental result
of structural misalignmentbetween the workforce and the
higher education system.
(18:17):
Here's the challenge.
The majority of thoseapprenticeships are currently
enrolling zero learners in them,and what we'll see is a state
tends to be a binary Either it'slike a Michigan or it's an Iowa
, where it has set up itsteaching apprenticeship, and
there are hundreds, if notthousands, of people going
through those pathways andthey're making a real dent in
their teacher shortages or willbe in the next few years as
(18:37):
those folks graduate.
Or alternatively, it's true formost states is they've gone
through all the trouble ofsetting up these apprenticeships
and they have zero studentsenrolled, because at the end of
the day, you have to have auniversity serving as the
training provider you have toget a college degree teacher and
if higher ed doesn't figure outhow to come along and be that
(18:58):
apprenticeship-based trainingprovider, those states will
wither on the vine and we willultimately see teaching
apprenticeships fade away.
So we're really at a momentwhere there is appetite from
districts, from state leaders,from the learners themselves,
and the big question will bewhether or not higher ed steps
up to meet that moment.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So you mentioned how the learners are identified.
Schools identify people withpotential in their schools and
their districts and theynominate them for this
apprenticeship program to reachuniversity.
Are these individuals typicallystaff working as staff at the
schools?
Are they people who interact inthe school?
(19:42):
How does the school identifythese individuals?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, it started with one very particular population
and now we're seeing more of abimodal distribution of two
different types of groups.
So where we started was theaverage learner at REACH
University is a mom or dad intheir mid to late 30s, was a
student of the K-12 system thatthey are now teaching and are
(20:06):
now serving as aparaprofessional.
And maybe they're not a para,maybe they're a classroom aid,
maybe they're a dedicated aid,but being some sort of role in
that building in the town thatthey grew up in.
They would love to be a teacherbecause, by the way, it would
double, if not triple, theirearnings, provide them a pension
, provide them all sorts ofgreat benefits.
But because they've got kids,because they're working for
(20:27):
minimum wage, they can't affordto step away from the workforce,
let alone take on student loandebt and go to school for four
years.
So that is our average personis someone who's been working in
that school usually at leastfive years I think the average
is around seven years thatthey've been working in our
program, are working at theschool before they're nominated
for our program, and that thatwas sort of the first group.
(20:48):
That was who was being sent tous over and over again.
These sort of tried and true,homegrown, dedicated individuals
who'd been at that school forseven years or more mid-career
and have kids and would love tomove up, need something to work
with their life.
The second group we're startingto see are actually 18-year year
olds who are recent graduatesfrom their K-12 system.
(21:11):
Who that school has saidespecially in a lot of our
smaller rural districts whereeveryone knows everyone they've
known that Molly wanted to be ateacher her whole life.
She was always volunteering inthe classrooms different
classrooms when she was in highschool.
She loves her town, she doesn'twant to leave and so, hey,
rather than send Molly away,spend tens of thousands of
(21:33):
dollars, if not more, on gettingher a teaching degree and then
bringing her back here.
What if she never had to leave?
That's sort of the secondemergent group we're seeing are
students who are right out ofhigh school, who've always had
an interest in teaching andworking in schools and now have
the opportunity to do thatwithout having to step away from
their community or theworkforce, especially if they've
(21:53):
got family they need to support.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Let's talk about the economic mobility, the economics
of becoming a teacher, andobviously you've pointed out a
very important part of this,which is to lower the cost of
becoming a teacher, to lower theborrowing cost, to allow the
individual to be able to workwhile they're learning.
So that's a big part ofimproving the economic mobility.
(22:17):
The teaching profession hastaken quite a few hits,
particularly since, during andafter COVID.
There's a lot of challenges inattracting individuals to the
teaching profession and, ofcourse, the economics of it.
Given the rising cost of livingin places like I'm in here in
California, it's becoming abigger and bigger challenge.
(22:39):
How do you think about, howdoes REACH University think
about, solving that challengeand what do you say to learners
about the economic mobility thatthey can gain by becoming a
teacher?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
So first of all, I would say this Ecosystem
problems require ecosystemsolutions.
Teachers are fundamentallyunderpaid.
They are not adequatelyrespected.
There's an ecosystem ofchallenges that lead many people
, myself included, to leave theclassroom and to not be teachers
anymore, and we have to addressthat.
Reach University is not asilver bullet we are not going
(23:12):
to address that piece is not asilver bullet.
We are not going to addressthat piece.
And one of the big things Ialways caution any policymaker,
any school district that we workwith is we can provide a
financially viable qualitypathway to get people into your
building.
If you are not thinking throughretention, if you are not
thinking through equity, if youare not thinking through those
(23:32):
other things, we can't fix thatfor you.
So I think that's the firstreally important caveat is that
reach would never tell you thatthere's no need to overhaul the
fundamental nature of how wesupport our teachers, how we
compensate them, and we're justone piece of this ecosystem.
And with that, let's take alook at what we know to be true
(23:52):
about where we lose teacherswhen they enter the workforce as
educators.
It's usually in one of twoplaces.
The first spot is in theirfirst five years of teaching and
it's because a couple of thingsright.
Typically, the biggest reasonthat people in that first
five-year bucket will report isI was not prepared.
I had no idea what I wasgetting into, I had no idea what
the teaching profession wasgoing to be like and I'm
(24:14):
receiving no support.
So our first opportunity is ifwe can provide someone a pathway
to not only not have studentloan debt they don't have to pay
back on the other side becausethat pilles into their economics
but that when they enter theclassroom on their first day of
teaching they look a lot morelike a fifth-year teacher than a
first-year teacher.
That's our first.
(24:35):
When we think about that ROIfor teachers of how long will I
use this degree and how much didit cost me to get there, we
switch both of those thingsright.
We see that.
And at Reach University, 90% ofour graduates are still working
in a K-12 school five yearsafter they graduate.
So that's a lot different thana 40% washout for the average
(24:55):
teacher training program.
So that's piece.
One is how do we train thosepeople in those first years so
that they're not taking on debtand then when they enter the
building they feel prepared andlike their degree gave them what
they needed to succeed?
The second place we loseteachers, when we think about
the ways in which the ROI onthis makes sense, is usually
(25:15):
around years 10 to 12.
And it's because at that pointteaching starts to feel like
Groundhog's Day.
Your average teacher is in herearly to mid 30s and I say she
because it is stillpredominantly female and they
start to have kids.
They start to look around andsee how much it costs to raise a
family, how much money theymake as a teacher, and they
(25:36):
start to do the analysis thatyou know what?
I'm not growing.
I don't have any way to stay inthe classroom and to continue
to professionally develop.
I'm not making enough money.
I'm just going to step out andtake care of my kids.
For those teachers, the secondpiece of our model that we think
is an important piece of thispuzzle is that we offer those
individuals the opportunity thegood ones, the ones who've been
(25:57):
expert that we really wanna keepin the classroom the
opportunity to become universityfaculty and to teach with us,
to significantly supplementtheir salary, but to do that
without leaving the classroom.
They get to do that as a partof their workday when they're
working with learners in thefield, as their mentor, teacher
and or teaching evening courses.
So that's the second way wethink about.
(26:17):
What is our piece to play insolving this ecosystem challenge
is how do we make it so thatyou have a chance to be
compensated for your expertise,to effectively have a
significant increase in your payper hour, by now being both a
teacher and an on-the-groundfaculty instructor for us?
How do we make that possible?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So in your model it sounds like you don't just
forget about the teacher onceyou make that handoff to the
school.
How do you work with thatschool, with the school
districts, with the teachersthat you've trained to help them
through those periods of timethat you just described, to help
them through retention and makesure that they're settled in
(26:58):
and effective teachers?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Up until now it has been largely informal right.
We stay in touch.
These are schools that we'retending to continue to educate
their next generation.
But, starting this fall, whatI'm really excited to share is
that we're realizing there's aspace for REACH University to
support schools and theirfaculty by breaking into the
(27:21):
professional development TitleII space right being able to do
ongoing support, and we actuallyrecently acquired an
organization that focusesparticularly on coaching and
mental health for teachers thatwe can start making one of those
professional development titletwo offerings title two eligible
offerings.
Again, the reason this mattersis what we recognize is that
(27:42):
schools are doing a lot with alittle, and so we are not
looking to send them a big bill.
What we're looking to say is,instead, you have to spend this
title two money, theseprofessional development line
item budgets on professionaldevelopment, and right now, the
unfortunate thing that we'reseeing is that most PD get no
returns whatsoever.
What if the state that trainedyour teachers from the beginning
(28:03):
had the continuity to continuetraining and upskilling them
throughout the course of theirdevelopment so that they can
continue to receive that supportwithout any new costs to the
district.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I come from the community college space, spent
30 years working in communitycolleges and most of the places
I've worked in, and particularlyin the last few years.
They talked a lot about theteacher education pathway and
how they can support thatpathway, how they can partner
with mostly regionaluniversities who had teacher
(28:35):
credentialing programs.
How do you work with othereducation providers like
community colleges?
Is there an opportunity forthem to work with REACH
University?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yes, we love community colleges.
We think community collegepartners, the learners who come
out of those programs, graduateat higher rates than any other
cohort in our model, and so weknow that community colleges
prepare incredibly bright,talented people, and so we've
actually worked very hard as aninstitution to go around and set
up articulation agreements withdozens of institutions, and
(29:09):
we've set up our model where, ifyou come out of a community
college with 60 credits withsome exceptions, right For
example, we had one student whospecialized in mortuary sciences
.
We had a really hard timefiguring out how that related to
teaching, but by and large, anystudent who's come out with any
Sounds like one of the programshere in California.
Yeah, indeed it was.
And a great program if you wantto go into the funeral business
(29:32):
, a little less so if you wantto go and work with a slightly
livelier bunch ofkindergarteners.
And so, with those fewexceptions that are much more
technical programs as opposed toa community college associate's
degree.
Our promise that is formalizedboth in articulation agreements
and just our general approach tobringing in students from any
(29:52):
institution is we will honorwhat you have.
If you come in with 60 creditsfrom a community college system,
you will start as a risingjunior in our program.
And we have built our model tomake sure that we can do that
without compromising on the realworld exposure and experience
that we want every student.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Now let me ask you one final question as we begin
to wrap up, and I'll put you onthe spot a little bit.
Given your perspective ofwhat's going on in states
throughout the country, giventhat you spend a little time
here in California as well, howwould you describe the state of
teacher education across thecountry and for us here in
(30:36):
California?
How would you describe what'sgoing on in California?
What are some of the challengesthat you see and some of the
hopeful signs?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
So I am hopeful, I am optimistic and I would say we
have to be wide-eyed about someof the challenges.
I think one of the biggestchallenges we have to face is
that we have the tail waggingthe dog when we think about
higher education has a certainlevel of parameters that for a
long time existed completelydifferent from teachers'
colleges.
They did not used to be a partof our higher education system
(31:08):
and they operated verydifferently.
And as they started gettingfolded in, higher ed has
mandates around who teaches yourclass right.
They have to have a terminaldegree, irrespective of whether
or not they actually know how towork with kids.
What they teach right.
These are things that it comesdown to, things that are easily
measured, as opposed to what weknow really helps teachers
become great teachers.
That, when I think about my owndaughter, I would put.
(31:36):
Any day of the week I wouldhave my daughter work with a
veteran 20-year-oldparaprofessional before I would
have her work with a first-yearteacher right, who's right out
of college and has never been ina building before.
What higher education requiresand with good reason is very
different from a statutoryperspective, from what we know
makes for good educators, andschools of ed are stuck in this
between a rock and a hard placeof.
(31:56):
I have to meet all of therequirements around hiring
people who do a bunch ofresearch and have PhDs in this
work and making sure thestudents have seat time hours
where they're on my campus anddoing this work, and I am stuck
within the pricing system of myuniversity, even though I know
teachers are never going to makeenough to make those dollars
make sense.
They are stuck inside of thetrappings of higher ed instead
(32:18):
of getting to be a teacherpreparation program.
That is our big challenge andthat is the thing that keeps me
up at night.
What I will say gives me hopeand I genuinely am optimistic
are the individual leaders I seeinside of those departments of
education getting creative andpushing on this.
You know I'll say you mentionedthe CSUs.
I love our CSU system and one ofthe ways that REACH University
(32:40):
has been positioning itself inCalifornia is as an institution
of last resort.
Right, if you're working with aCSU Long Beach or a CSU East
Bay and they are trying to, youknow they're trying to innovate
and provide this program.
We're not going to try tocompete with them.
We will give them our resources, we'll give them our tools,
everything we've learned aboutnavigating accreditation, all of
the data infrastructure theyneed so that they can overcome
(33:03):
that pressure from what highered as a mantle means and instead
have us focus on being thatinstitution of last resort in.
For example, we work in ruralNorthern California where there
might be some two institutionsbut there is no CSU nearby.
That's right.
(33:30):
Future educators who arecurrently our students?
Well, and we need to buck someof these well-intentioned but
wrong-headed rules that mightmake sense for other parts of
higher ed but do not for teacherpreparation or, for that matter
, quite frankly, nursingpreparation or social work
preparation or any of thoseother industries where
experience and practice reallymatters.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Well, experience and practice definitely matters,
particularly to our children,people who are coming up through
our education system today.
Given all the challenges thatwe're facing as a country, as
cities, as states, I can't thinkof a more important profession
right now, along with healthcare and other places.
(34:12):
I mean, these are places thatwe need to have the best and
brightest teaching our kids.
So, Mallory, thank you forcoming on to the Rant podcast.
I really appreciate you takingthe time and I really appreciate
the leadership that you'reproviding in teacher education.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
EOI.
Thank you so much for the time.
It was great meeting andchatting.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
All right.
Well, you've been listening tomy conversation with the
Chancellor of REACH University,mallory Dwinnell-Palish.
It's been great to have her onthe Rant podcast.
I hope you've enjoyed theinterview.
If you enjoyed the interview,please hit the like button,
continue to subscribe to thisYouTube channel and follow us on
your favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and We'll be back
(34:53):
with you soon.
Hi, this is Hilo Ortiz-Oakley.
Welcome back to the RANDPodcast, the podcast that pulls
back the curtain and breaks downthe people, the policies and
the politics of our highereducation system.
Welcome back.
In this episode I sit down withDr Mallory Palash, former
chancellor of REACH Universityand CEO and co-founder of Kraft
(00:33):
Education.
Since we recorded this episode,there's been some new
developments.
Kraft Education has beenacquired by Western Governors
University, so Dr Palash and herteam will team up with the WGU
team and bring a new emphasis ofapprenticeship and workplace
learning models to WesternGovernors University.
(00:56):
This is an exciting newdevelopment because, as you'll
hear from my interview with DrPalish, her and her team have
specialized in bringingapprenticeship and work-based
learning models to teachereducation and, as many of you
know, WGU provides a teachereducation pipeline.
So the two combined should bean exciting new development for
(01:19):
adult learners throughout thecountry.
And with that backdrop, pleaseenjoy my conversation with Dr
Mallory Palish.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley,and welcome back to the Rant,
the podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with the Chancellor of
(01:42):
REACH University and theco-founder of Craft Education
System, Mallory Dwinnell-Pallish.
I talk with Mallory about howREACH University is innovating
in the teacher education spaceand using an apprenticeship
model to support more learners.
I also get to get Mallory'sthoughts on the state of teacher
(02:04):
education today.
So with that quick introduction, Mallory, welcome to the Rant.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Eloy, it's great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, it's great to have you Appreciate you taking
the time out of your busyschedule.
I know you have a lot going onand we have a lot to talk about.
I think REACH University isdoing a lot of great work and I
know our listeners would like tolearn more about what you're
doing.
So let's start there.
Why don't you tell us aboutREACH University and the craft
(02:35):
education system, and whatinspired you to get these
teacher education pathwaysstarted?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So what could be more inspirational than a PhD
program?
She said very sarcastically.
I started out as an academic.
I did my.
PhD in teacher labor marketmodeling and I saw two big
challenges came up that over andover again that led to the
launch of Reach and DeCrafttoday.
The first was that highereducation itself was
(03:06):
fundamentally misaligned withwhat the teacher labor market
required.
Teacher labor is highlylocalized.
It is not fungible by subjectarea, by geography, from where
there'll be teachers to go gettrained in a specific subject
(03:27):
area or credential, without anyfeedback from the labor market
as to whether that is thecredential that they will need
and then travel back, hope theyfind a match and that then
somehow the state set pay scalewhich is very modest for
teachers will pay off everappreciating student loans.
There was a fundamentalmismatch between higher
education and the workforcelabor market there, and so that
was the first big challenge.
(03:47):
The second big challenge thatcame up over and over again was
and to the degree that we'reever on track, how do we even
know?
Because the data around thesesystems was such a black box
that trying to do any meaningfulmodeling or analysis for
policymakers around supply anddemand mismatch, around
incentives that were getting theROI that they wanted, we were
completely shooting in the darkand hoping that we hit the
(04:10):
bullseye.
And so that was many, manyyears ago.
I, after that, left and becamea teacher, became a school
leader and felt those exact samestrains over and over again,
from the lens of being aclassroom teacher and then as a
school principal, trying to hiremy classroom teachers, and so
ultimately launched ReachUniversity, which is now a
regionally accredited nonprofituniversity that operates in four
(04:34):
states in America, servingabout 2,000 apprentices.
And there's only one thing wedo, which is we take adults who
want to become teachers and whohave the ability to work in a
school with students that theywill eventually become the
teachers to and to turn that jobinto an apprenticeship that
confers college credits andallows them to graduate not only
(04:55):
not taking on student loan debt, but getting paid to earn that
degree, working with thestudents, the faculty and the
leadership that they willultimately become colleagues to
and to do all of that knowingthe whole time that they're
getting trained in the exactsubject area, in the exact grade
level that that school willneed them to be once they
graduate.
So that's what REACH does.
(05:15):
The last thing I'll say is whereCRAFT comes in is as we started
this work, we saw we were goingto have a very challenging
issue ahead of us, which cameback to this data piece.
The Department of Educationthat oversees higher ed has one
very particular set of reportingrequirements to remain an
accredited institution, as dostate teacher credentialing
boards.
But if you're going to becomean apprenticeship provider, you
(05:38):
now also have to report out moreor less the same content, but
in structurally different waysto the Department of Labor, and
anyone out here has everwondered if government
bureaucracies and silos areefficient and integrated.
I'm here to tell youdefinitively they're not, and so
Craft was our tool that webuilt first in-house for us, but
(05:59):
that is now available to anyinstitution that wants to offer
apprenticeship degrees.
That basically serves as thetranslator of collecting that
data and then translating it toDepartment of Ed language and to
Department of Labor language,so that we don't have to waste
our time doing that and we canfocus on building great teachers
.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
That's a great backdrop to some of our other
questions.
So you talked a lot aboutfinding adults, getting adults
into the right program, gettingthem aligned in the labor market
, helping schools find thoseteachers.
Where do you find your learnersand how do they find you at
(06:38):
REACH University?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Oh, this is foundational to our model, so
where we find our learners.
Actually, your second questionanswers it it's first they find
us, but it's not your normal B2Cuniversity right, business to
consumer, where someone says Iwant to be a teacher, so I'm
going to go to Reach Universityand that's how I enroll.
Reach University is a B2Bpartner, so we partner with
(07:01):
school districts business tobusiness, okay.
And we ask them to tell us twothings.
One, what are the vacanciesthat you're perpetually
struggling to fill Right, maybenow, but maybe also over the
next few years?
And they usually come up with alist of these five special
education positions, these 10STEM positions, and it comes to
a total list of however manystudents.
Let's say, it comes to 25vacancies that they perpetually
(07:22):
struggle to fill.
The second thing we ask them isgreat, tell me the 25 people
working in your building rightnow as tutor, as a classroom aid
, as an after-schoolinstructional volunteer, who are
working with your kids everyday, who you've seen in action,
who you know could be greatteachers if they had a college
degree.
They tell us those two thingsright, the vacancies they need
(07:43):
filled and the people alreadyworking in their building who
they think could do a great jobfilling them.
We then notify thoseindividuals you've been
nominated to come to thisinstitution.
That is more or less thebeginning and the end of our
application process.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
They have to have a.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
GED or a high school degree equivalent, and they have
to be over the age of 18, andthey have to submit two writing
samples that we can use tofigure out how much support they
need, but not whether or not toadmit them.
That's it, that's our entireapplication process, and what we
see is that when thoseindividuals are nominated by
their school because theirschool says not just I think you
could be a teacher, but says Ihave a position that I am
(08:20):
waiting for you to come fill,those folks come flocking in.
And I think the last thing Iwould say about this that's
important to know is the orderof magnitudes here.
So, on any given year, we needabout 160,000 to 300,000,
depending whose stats you use ofclassroom vacancies where a
classroom is being led bysomeone who's not appropriately
(08:42):
credentialed or qualified.
There are 1.3 million peoplecurrently serving as
paraprofessionals in our schools, and when you include that
broader lens of tutors,dedicated aides, et cetera, that
number about doubles.
And so, just as an order ofmagnitude, if we take just the
top 10 to 20% of those peopleworking in those roles whose
(09:03):
school leaders are saying I havewatched this person go in and
just light kids up, get themexcited about learning.
Support them.
I want them to be a teacher.
We take that cream of the cropand we upskill them to fill the
specific vacancies that thoseschool leaders are struggling
with, and you have a recipe toend teacher shortages at scale.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You clearly identified one of the challenges
that we see across the countrywith regard to teacher education
this misalignment between thekind of credentials that a
school might need and the kindof credentials that teachers
have in those schools.
Where does that problem stemfrom, and do you see states that
are improving that alignment?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah, the problem does arise from this
mismatch of how we think abouthigher education versus what we
know about the labor workforce.
And over half of these peopleare teaching within 20 miles of
(10:12):
where they grew up and wherethey went to school themselves.
So when you take those thingstogether, what you're looking at
is people who are going to goto going to go teach near where
they grew up and who are notgoing to move for new job
opportunities because they'renot the primary breadwinner.
So let's talk about thechallenge that creates.
What we know is that which zipcode you were born in
(10:33):
dramatically predicts thelikelihood of you going to
college, which is a requirementto the teacher, and so we see
this sort of never-endingquicksand and cycle of
communities that don't producelarge numbers of college
graduates, especially in urbanand in rural areas.
There is a massive challengewith being able to develop their
(10:55):
own local teacher labor supply,and it is equally challenging
to attract people who are notfrom that community to come in
and be teachers.
So that is the challenge ofwhat the workforce needs, for
teacher labor is fundamentallydifferent than what universities
want, right?
Right, teacher labor requires avery decentralized, localized
approach.
Universities until recently.
(11:16):
With the rise of onlinelearning, had this idea of
you're going to come fromwherever you are, come in, live
in residence with us, farremoved from that community, and
then what you do afterwards isyour business.
Those two things liveorthogonal to one another.
That does not work.
So now to your question of sowhat are states doing around
this that we're seeing get thebest results?
(11:37):
States that are investing.
Every single state in Americahas a structural teacher
shortage right now.
So there's no state that iscompletely out of the woods, and
states that are especiallyrural are struggling the most.
From there, the states that aremaking the most headway are the
ones that are investing inthese.
Grow your own approaches,whether it's through
apprenticeship, whether it isthrough sending students from
(12:01):
Educators, rising or other highschool programs away on the
promise that if they come backthey'll pay for college, on the
promise that if they come backthey'll pay for college.
Those strategies that are meantto address that localized
market are doing the most,though no state is out of the
woods yet and every state islooking at a structural shortage
.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Wow.
So let's talk aboutspecifically the REACH
University approach.
You mentioned apprenticeships.
You mentioned theapprenticeship model as you talk
about teacher education.
That's not something we're usedto hearing about when we think
about teacher education.
How does your model work?
How do you get a student fromcoming in to reach university to
(12:41):
that credential and to beingplaced in that position in a
school district?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So there are five defining features of the
apprenticeship degree thatdistinguish it from the
traditional experience.
So, as mentioned from thebeginning, it starts as a B2B
experience.
Right A district says tosomeone that they have already
seen up close in person, asculture fit has the raw
potential, they enroll thatstudent in REACH University,
(13:08):
that apprentice in REACHUniversity, from there.
Those five defining featuresare number one flexibility, so
this idea that they don't haveto compete with work or with
school.
We have a rule that student forus classes are held online on
Zoom on evenings and weekends sothat students are to arrange
(13:29):
childcare.
They never have to miss workand don't need private
transportation.
Number two for us is efficiency.
So those classes they have totake, they're actually only 50
percent of the full degree.
Our learners actually getanother 50 percent of their
credits and their credit hoursfrom the job itself, from going
and working every day on the jobas a para, which means that
(13:50):
they can work full-time, theycan go to school full-time and
they can do those things at thesame time without conflict
between them in terms of time ofday or total hours required.
Thing number three for us isrelevance.
So when they go into theironline Zoom classes.
They are taught by an experteducator, so all of our
instructors are people who'vebeen K-12 teachers themselves.
(14:11):
About a quarter of ourinstructors have been teachers
of the year or principal of theyear in their respective state.
So, incredibly high caliberinstructors bring together
people in this setting and say,hey, we're talking about
childhood development.
And today you went and workedin a classroom of first and
second graders, a first andsecond grader split.
(14:31):
What was the same with what wehear in our theory should be
happening?
What was different from whattheory would predict?
And why does that matter?
How is that going to changewhat you go do tomorrow?
So there's this constant,immediate, real-time feedback
between theory and practice thatis navigated by people who have
a track record of success inthat same setting as a classroom
(14:52):
teacher.
Number four for us isaffordability.
So we braid together Pell,registered apprenticeship
dollars and then any otherfunding that a state might have
towards its teacher shortagemechanisms, so that we can make
the promise that there's no costto the district other than it
continuing to pay the salary itwas already paying that
individual.
And our students paid $75 amonth.
(15:13):
What that means for ourstudents is that they're not
only not taking on student loandebt, but they're actually
getting paid to earn theircollege degree without us ever
charging big fines or fees toemployers or any other partners.
And then the fifth and finalpiece kind of brings us back
from where we started, which isprofessional capital and in
particular, this idea that weare not just bringing someone in
(15:37):
to train them to become ateacher and hope they find a job
.
These apprentices are goingthrough our program knowing that
their school nominated them sothat when they graduate they
fill a specific position in thebuilding.
So those are the fivedifferentiating features for us
of flexibility, efficiency,relevance, affordability and
professional capital that we seethat you can't pick and choose.
(15:59):
You have to bring all of themtogether.
You bring all five together.
We see fundamentally differentoutcomes in terms of the
diversity of candidates who arerecruited into the program,
their retention through theprogram and their performance in
the job after they graduate.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
You mentioned the financing model behind all this.
I mean, certainly forlow-income learners, there's
access to Pell and you make thatavailable since you're an
accredited institution, title IVeligible.
But you also mentioned beingable to access dollars that are
earmarked for apprenticeship.
I think that opens up a wholeother avenue of support for the
(16:37):
school, for the school district,for the learner.
That's really a novel approachto this.
I think it's something that weall can learn from.
There's so much talk aboutapprenticeship throughout the
country and so much push tocreate apprenticeship models in
what we would consider, in theUnited States, non-traditional
pathways outside of the buildingtrades or other places where
(17:00):
we're used to seeingapprenticeship models.
Do you see this idea ofapprenticeship and teacher
education catching on, or how doyou see the teaching industry
thinking about this?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Absolutely.
So.
We're seeing massive momentumand a critical juncture where we
need to decide, particularly inthe higher education world, if
we're going to meet the call ornot.
So, to start with the momentum,in 2020, when REACH University
was first accredited as a fullundergraduate graduate program,
there was arguably one statethat had any kind of teacher
(17:35):
apprenticeships, and that wasNew York.
But even that was sort ofliving at the periphery in terms
of drawing funding.
In 2022, tennessee came in andset up the first what's called
OA Federally RegisteredApprenticeship for Teaching, and
if you flash forward today,there are now around 40 states
that have at least one teachingapprenticeship registered in
their state.
(17:56):
So we're seeing massivemomentum.
Red states, blue states, urban,rural we are seeing incredible
momentum because of the efficacythis approach has in filling
those gaps that we mentionedbefore are a fundamental result
of structural misalignmentbetween the workforce and the
higher education system.
(18:17):
Here's the challenge.
The majority of thoseapprenticeships are currently
enrolling zero learners in them,and what we'll see is a state
tends to be a binary Either it'slike a Michigan or it's an Iowa
, where it has set up itsteaching apprenticeship, and
there are hundreds, if notthousands, of people going
through those pathways andthey're making a real dent in
their teacher shortages or willbe in the next few years as
(18:37):
those folks graduate.
Or alternatively, it's true formost states is they've gone
through all the trouble ofsetting up these apprenticeships
and they have zero studentsenrolled, because at the end of
the day, you have to have auniversity serving as the
training provider you have toget a college degree teacher and
if higher ed doesn't figure outhow to come along and be that
(18:58):
apprenticeship-based trainingprovider, those states will
wither on the vine and we willultimately see teaching
apprenticeships fade away.
So we're really at a momentwhere there is appetite from
districts, from state leaders,from the learners themselves,
and the big question will bewhether or not higher ed steps
up to meet that moment.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So you mentioned how the learners are identified.
Schools identify people withpotential in their schools and
their districts and theynominate them for this
apprenticeship program to reachuniversity.
Are these individuals typicallystaff working as staff at the
schools?
Are they people who interact inthe school?
(19:42):
How does the school identifythese individuals?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, it started with one very particular population
and now we're seeing more of abimodal distribution of two
different types of groups.
So where we started was theaverage learner at REACH
University is a mom or dad intheir mid to late 30s, was a
student of the K-12 system thatthey are now teaching and are
(20:06):
now serving as aparaprofessional.
And maybe they're not a para,maybe they're a classroom aid,
maybe they're a dedicated aid,but being some sort of role in
that building in the town thatthey grew up in.
They would love to be a teacherbecause, by the way, it would
double, if not triple, theirearnings, provide them a pension
, provide them all sorts ofgreat benefits.
But because they've got kids,because they're working for
(20:27):
minimum wage, they can't affordto step away from the workforce,
let alone take on student loandebt and go to school for four
years.
So that is our average personis someone who's been working in
that school usually at leastfive years I think the average
is around seven years thatthey've been working in our
program, are working at theschool before they're nominated
for our program, and that thatwas sort of the first group.
(20:48):
That was who was being sent tous over and over again.
These sort of tried and true,homegrown, dedicated individuals
who'd been at that school forseven years or more mid-career
and have kids and would love tomove up, need something to work
with their life.
The second group we're startingto see are actually 18-year year
olds who are recent graduatesfrom their K-12 system.
(21:11):
Who that school has saidespecially in a lot of our
smaller rural districts whereeveryone knows everyone they've
known that Molly wanted to be ateacher her whole life.
She was always volunteering inthe classrooms different
classrooms when she was in highschool.
She loves her town, she doesn'twant to leave and so, hey,
rather than send Molly away,spend tens of thousands of
(21:33):
dollars, if not more, on gettingher a teaching degree and then
bringing her back here.
What if she never had to leave?
That's sort of the secondemergent group we're seeing are
students who are right out ofhigh school, who've always had
an interest in teaching andworking in schools and now have
the opportunity to do thatwithout having to step away from
their community or theworkforce, especially if they've
(21:53):
got family they need to support.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Let's talk about the economic mobility, the economics
of becoming a teacher, andobviously you've pointed out a
very important part of this,which is to lower the cost of
becoming a teacher, to lower theborrowing cost, to allow the
individual to be able to workwhile they're learning.
So that's a big part ofimproving the economic mobility.
(22:17):
The teaching profession hastaken quite a few hits,
particularly since, during andafter COVID.
There's a lot of challenges inattracting individuals to the
teaching profession and, ofcourse, the economics of it.
Given the rising cost of livingin places like I'm in here in
California, it's becoming abigger and bigger challenge.
(22:39):
How do you think about, howdoes REACH University think
about, solving that challengeand what do you say to learners
about the economic mobility thatthey can gain by becoming a
teacher?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
So first of all, I would say this Ecosystem
problems require ecosystemsolutions.
Teachers are fundamentallyunderpaid.
They are not adequatelyrespected.
There's an ecosystem ofchallenges that lead many people
, myself included, to leave theclassroom and to not be teachers
anymore, and we have to addressthat.
Reach University is not asilver bullet we are not going
(23:12):
to address that piece is not asilver bullet.
We are not going to addressthat piece.
And one of the big things Ialways caution any policymaker,
any school district that we workwith is we can provide a
financially viable qualitypathway to get people into your
building.
If you are not thinking throughretention, if you are not
thinking through equity, if youare not thinking through those
(23:32):
other things, we can't fix thatfor you.
So I think that's the firstreally important caveat is that
reach would never tell you thatthere's no need to overhaul the
fundamental nature of how wesupport our teachers, how we
compensate them, and we're justone piece of this ecosystem.
And with that, let's take alook at what we know to be true
(23:52):
about where we lose teacherswhen they enter the workforce as
educators.
It's usually in one of twoplaces.
The first spot is in theirfirst five years of teaching and
it's because a couple of thingsright.
Typically, the biggest reasonthat people in that first
five-year bucket will report isI was not prepared.
I had no idea what I wasgetting into, I had no idea what
the teaching profession wasgoing to be like and I'm
(24:14):
receiving no support.
So our first opportunity is ifwe can provide someone a pathway
to not only not have studentloan debt they don't have to pay
back on the other side becausethat pilles into their economics
but that when they enter theclassroom on their first day of
teaching they look a lot morelike a fifth-year teacher than a
first-year teacher.
That's our first.
(24:35):
When we think about that ROIfor teachers of how long will I
use this degree and how much didit cost me to get there, we
switch both of those thingsright.
We see that.
And at Reach University, 90% ofour graduates are still working
in a K-12 school five yearsafter they graduate.
So that's a lot different thana 40% washout for the average
(24:55):
teacher training program.
So that's piece.
One is how do we train thosepeople in those first years so
that they're not taking on debtand then when they enter the
building they feel prepared andlike their degree gave them what
they needed to succeed?
The second place we loseteachers, when we think about
the ways in which the ROI onthis makes sense, is usually
(25:15):
around years 10 to 12.
And it's because at that pointteaching starts to feel like
Groundhog's Day.
Your average teacher is in herearly to mid 30s and I say she
because it is stillpredominantly female and they
start to have kids.
They start to look around andsee how much it costs to raise a
family, how much money theymake as a teacher, and they
(25:36):
start to do the analysis thatyou know what?
I'm not growing.
I don't have any way to stay inthe classroom and to continue
to professionally develop.
I'm not making enough money.
I'm just going to step out andtake care of my kids.
For those teachers, the secondpiece of our model that we think
is an important piece of thispuzzle is that we offer those
individuals the opportunity thegood ones, the ones who've been
(25:57):
expert that we really wanna keepin the classroom the
opportunity to become universityfaculty and to teach with us,
to significantly supplementtheir salary, but to do that
without leaving the classroom.
They get to do that as a partof their workday when they're
working with learners in thefield, as their mentor, teacher
and or teaching evening courses.
So that's the second way wethink about.
(26:17):
What is our piece to play insolving this ecosystem challenge
is how do we make it so thatyou have a chance to be
compensated for your expertise,to effectively have a
significant increase in your payper hour, by now being both a
teacher and an on-the-groundfaculty instructor for us?
How do we make that possible?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So in your model it sounds like you don't just
forget about the teacher onceyou make that handoff to the
school.
How do you work with thatschool, with the school
districts, with the teachersthat you've trained to help them
through those periods of timethat you just described, to help
them through retention and makesure that they're settled in
(26:58):
and effective teachers?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Up until now it has been largely informal right.
We stay in touch.
These are schools that we'retending to continue to educate
their next generation.
But, starting this fall, whatI'm really excited to share is
that we're realizing there's aspace for REACH University to
support schools and theirfaculty by breaking into the
(27:21):
professional development TitleII space right being able to do
ongoing support, and we actuallyrecently acquired an
organization that focusesparticularly on coaching and
mental health for teachers thatwe can start making one of those
professional development titletwo offerings title two eligible
offerings.
Again, the reason this mattersis what we recognize is that
(27:42):
schools are doing a lot with alittle, and so we are not
looking to send them a big bill.
What we're looking to say is,instead, you have to spend this
title two money, theseprofessional development line
item budgets on professionaldevelopment, and right now, the
unfortunate thing that we'reseeing is that most PD get no
returns whatsoever.
What if the state that trainedyour teachers from the beginning
(28:03):
had the continuity to continuetraining and upskilling them
throughout the course of theirdevelopment so that they can
continue to receive that supportwithout any new costs to the
district.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I come from the community college space, spent
30 years working in communitycolleges and most of the places
I've worked in, and particularlyin the last few years.
They talked a lot about theteacher education pathway and
how they can support thatpathway, how they can partner
with mostly regionaluniversities who had teacher
(28:35):
credentialing programs.
How do you work with othereducation providers like
community colleges?
Is there an opportunity forthem to work with REACH
University?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yes, we love community colleges.
We think community collegepartners, the learners who come
out of those programs, graduateat higher rates than any other
cohort in our model, and so weknow that community colleges
prepare incredibly bright,talented people, and so we've
actually worked very hard as aninstitution to go around and set
up articulation agreements withdozens of institutions, and
(29:09):
we've set up our model where, ifyou come out of a community
college with 60 credits withsome exceptions, right For
example, we had one student whospecialized in mortuary sciences
.
We had a really hard timefiguring out how that related to
teaching, but by and large, anystudent who's come out with any
Sounds like one of the programshere in California.
Yeah, indeed it was.
And a great program if you wantto go into the funeral business
(29:32):
, a little less so if you wantto go and work with a slightly
livelier bunch ofkindergarteners.
And so, with those fewexceptions that are much more
technical programs as opposed toa community college associate's
degree.
Our promise that is formalizedboth in articulation agreements
and just our general approach tobringing in students from any
(29:52):
institution is we will honorwhat you have.
If you come in with 60 creditsfrom a community college system,
you will start as a risingjunior in our program.
And we have built our model tomake sure that we can do that
without compromising on the realworld exposure and experience
that we want every student.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Now let me ask you one final question as we begin
to wrap up, and I'll put you onthe spot a little bit.
Given your perspective ofwhat's going on in states
throughout the country, giventhat you spend a little time
here in California as well, howwould you describe the state of
teacher education across thecountry and for us here in
(30:36):
California?
How would you describe what'sgoing on in California?
What are some of the challengesthat you see and some of the
hopeful signs?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
So I am hopeful, I am optimistic and I would say we
have to be wide-eyed about someof the challenges.
I think one of the biggestchallenges we have to face is
that we have the tail waggingthe dog when we think about
higher education has a certainlevel of parameters that for a
long time existed completelydifferent from teachers'
colleges.
They did not used to be a partof our higher education system
(31:08):
and they operated verydifferently.
And as they started gettingfolded in, higher ed has
mandates around who teaches yourclass right.
They have to have a terminaldegree, irrespective of whether
or not they actually know how towork with kids.
What they teach right.
These are things that it comesdown to, things that are easily
measured, as opposed to what weknow really helps teachers
become great teachers.
That, when I think about my owndaughter, I would put.
(31:36):
Any day of the week I wouldhave my daughter work with a
veteran 20-year-oldparaprofessional before I would
have her work with a first-yearteacher right, who's right out
of college and has never been ina building before.
What higher education requiresand with good reason is very
different from a statutoryperspective, from what we know
makes for good educators, andschools of ed are stuck in this
between a rock and a hard placeof.
(31:56):
I have to meet all of therequirements around hiring
people who do a bunch ofresearch and have PhDs in this
work and making sure thestudents have seat time hours
where they're on my campus anddoing this work, and I am stuck
within the pricing system of myuniversity, even though I know
teachers are never going to makeenough to make those dollars
make sense.
They are stuck inside of thetrappings of higher ed instead
(32:18):
of getting to be a teacherpreparation program.
That is our big challenge andthat is the thing that keeps me
up at night.
What I will say gives me hopeand I genuinely am optimistic
are the individual leaders I seeinside of those departments of
education getting creative andpushing on this.
You know I'll say you mentionedthe CSUs.
I love our CSU system and one ofthe ways that REACH University
(32:40):
has been positioning itself inCalifornia is as an institution
of last resort.
Right, if you're working with aCSU Long Beach or a CSU East
Bay and they are trying to, youknow they're trying to innovate
and provide this program.
We're not going to try tocompete with them.
We will give them our resources, we'll give them our tools,
everything we've learned aboutnavigating accreditation, all of
the data infrastructure theyneed so that they can overcome
(33:03):
that pressure from what highered as a mantle means and instead
have us focus on being thatinstitution of last resort in.
For example, we work in ruralNorthern California where there
might be some two institutionsbut there is no CSU nearby.
That's right.
(33:30):
Future educators who arecurrently our students?
Well, and we need to buck someof these well-intentioned but
wrong-headed rules that mightmake sense for other parts of
higher ed but do not for teacherpreparation or, for that matter
, quite frankly, nursingpreparation or social work
preparation or any of thoseother industries where
experience and practice reallymatters.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Well, experience and practice definitely matters,
particularly to our children,people who are coming up through
our education system today.
Given all the challenges thatwe're facing as a country, as
cities, as states, I can't thinkof a more important profession
right now, along with healthcare and other places.
(34:12):
I mean, these are places thatwe need to have the best and
brightest teaching our kids.
So, Mallory, thank you forcoming on to the Rant podcast.
I really appreciate you takingthe time and I really appreciate
the leadership that you'reproviding in teacher education.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
EOI.
Thank you so much for the time.
It was great meeting andchatting.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
All right.
Well, you've been listening tomy conversation with the
Chancellor of REACH University,mallory Dwinnell-Palish.
It's been great to have her onthe Rant podcast.
I hope you've enjoyed theinterview.
If you enjoyed the interview,please hit the like button,
continue to subscribe to thisYouTube channel and follow us on
your favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and We'll be back
(34:53):
with you soon.
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