October 14, 2025 • 37 mins
What does it look like when a “global campus” is truly global—and built for working learners from the ground up? We sit with UMGC president Dr. Greg Fowler to trace a line from faculty boarding planes after WWII to teaching through evacuations, tsunamis, and base alerts, all while keeping one promise: meet students where they are and prove value with real outcomes. Along the way, we dig into credit for prior learning mapped directly to military rank, why time is the enemy of the poor, and how skills-first, competency-based assessment can shorten time to degree without lowering the bar.<br><br>Greg shares how UMGC partners with employers to define the skills that matter, then designs assessments that mirror real work—lead teams, teach a class, solve a problem—rather than lean on brittle tests and essays. We explore AI as augmented intelligence: a personal learning assistant that adapts content, flags gaps early, and enables scalable oral checks and simulations. From submarines in port to rural education deserts, we examine what it means to deliver flexible, high-quality learning across 170+ locations and online, with a steady hand through policy shifts and market uncertainty.<br><br>If you care about economic mobility, ROI, and restoring public trust in higher ed, this conversation offers a practical playbook: validate experience, personalize support, measure what learners can do, and keep the North Star fixed on better jobs and better lives. Subscribe, share this episode with a colleague wrestling with adult learner design, and leave a review telling us what should count for credit in a skills-first future.
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eloy@4leggedmedia.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz Oakley.
Welcome back to the RantPodcast, the podcast where we
pull back the curtain and breakdown the people, the policies,
and the politics of our highereducation system.
In this episode, I sit down withGreg Fowler, president of the
University of Maryland GlobalCampus, UMGC.
(00:33):
Greg and his team at UMGC havebeen serving working learners
for decades.
Since World War II, as a matterof fact.
We'll hear more from Greg aboutthe history of UMGC and how
they're serving workinglearners, but they are an
excellent example of what moreand more colleges and
universities need to do today.
(00:55):
And that is intentionallydesigned with the learner in
mind.
I'll talk to Greg about hisexperiences at UMGC, how his
team is thinking about teachingand learning going into the
future, their work with themilitary, which is extensive,
and the fact that they are trulya global campus with sites all
(01:15):
across the world.
We'll also talk about hisexperiences with other adult
learning institutions likeSouthern New Hampshire
University and WGU.
So Greg's experiences plus histime at UMGC will give us great
insights as to what highereducation leaders need to think
about in terms of better servingworking learners.
(01:38):
And this topic couldn't be moreimportant than it is today
because as we're thinking aboutcreating more value for more
learners in more places and forpost-secondary institutions to
truly regain the confidence thatthe public has in them, they
must do a better job of servingthe millions of working learners
(02:01):
throughout this great country.
These are individuals who arestruggling in today's economy,
trying to get the skills thatthey need in order to have a
good paying job.
And either they never went tocollege or they went to college
but didn't complete.
Or in many cases they went tocollege and got their degree and
now have to come back to reskillor upskill because the program
(02:24):
and study that they chose didnot give them the economic
outcome that they were lookingfor.
So this conversation with Gregis very timely.
There's a lot of conversation inCongress, a lot of conversation
in states throughout the countryabout how to better align
post-secondary institutions withthe needs of working learners.
In my day job at CollegeFutures, I and my team are
(02:47):
focused on this issue.
Trying to get at the root ofwhat does it mean to truly
design, intentionally design forthe needs of working learners.
Now is the time to do that.
Whether you are a fully onlineinstitution like a UMGC and been
doing this for many, many years,or you're a four-year regional
(03:08):
who is struggling.
I certainly think about theexample here in California, the
California State Universitysystem, which is going through
significant turmoil, not justbecause of what's going on in
Washington, DC, but because ofwhat's going on with learners
themselves.
The challenges that they facewith enrollment decline in the
(03:28):
far north of the state, thechallenges that they have in
ensuring that beyond completinga program of study, that there
is the economic outcome for thelearners that they serve, the
challenges that they face inextending the reach of their
teaching and learning, and meetlearners where they're at.
These are struggles that everyregional public university is
(03:52):
facing and most private liberalarts institutions are facing.
So the example that I'm going tospeak with Greg Fowler about is
a great example to look at formany higher education leaders
today.
Not that UMGC has cornered themarket on all the solutions, but
what they have done is fordecades focused on the needs of
(04:15):
their learners and trying tomeet their needs where they're
at.
And in the case of UMGC, it'smeeting military individuals and
their families, where they'reat, whether they're on the
battlefield, whether they're inthe barracks, or whether they're
training in some country that wedon't even know about.
So I look forward to continuingthis conversation with some of
(04:38):
our other guests.
How do you intentionally designfor the working learner?
But in the meantime, pleaseenjoy my conversation with the
president of the University ofMaryland Global Campus, Greg
Fowler.
Greg, welcome to the RantPodcast.
Glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Well, it's great to see you.
Great to have you on the RantPodcast.
(05:01):
We've been talking about havingyou and UMGC on the podcast for
some time.
So I'm glad this day has finallycome.
This is a great time to betalking to you about the work
you and your team are doing.
But first, let me begin with howare you doing?
How are you and your team doingwith all the stuff that's been
going on over the last severalmonths?
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
We're doing okay.
We are constantly, of course,like everyone else, trying to
make sure we stay abreast ofthings that we need to be
focusing on.
One of the things that I thinkis unique about UMGC, of course,
is that we are operating at 175plus locations around the globe.
So there's so many differentimpacts of different things that
we are trying to deal with.
Certainly you're talking aboutthe political world, but you're
(05:40):
also talking about, you mayrecall a couple of weeks ago
there was an earthquake inRussia.
That earthquake triggered awhole bunch of tsunami warnings
for locations in Hawaii andOkinawa.
We had one here.
So it's the same type of thingthat we are constantly thinking
about.
So what are our locations aroundthe globe having to respond to?
It's one of those things we arealways on top of, but we are
(06:00):
staying abreast of these things.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Well, it's good to hear that you have some
additional worries in just yournormal brick and mortar
president.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Oh, yes, yes.
It is definitely one of thosethings where I'm a little bit,
you know, president, a littlebit meteorologist, a little bit
geologist.
I'm learning all kinds of newskills in this role.
SPEAKER_01 (06:18):
Right.
I I bet.
I bet.
Well, so you know, it's alwaysinteresting to me how different
universities title their onlinepresence.
There's a lot of global campusesout there, but you are truly a
global campus.
171 locations all around theglobe.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
That is absolutely right.
Many years ago, right at the endof World War II, the U.S.
government decided that it wasgoing to try to educate those
service members who were, at thetime, they thought were coming
home.
And then, of course, it becamequite evident with the Marshall
Plan and other things that we'regoing to have quite a number of
troops stationed overseas.
And so they sent out a call toall the institutions in the
country to talk about who mightbe able to go over there.
(06:59):
And of course, institutionsasked the logical questions
where where will our offices be?
We aren't quite sure.
Where will our classes be?
We aren't quite sure.
And so by the time it was overwith, only the University of
Maryland was willing to sendsomeone over there to try it
out.
And I often like to tell thestory of we sent over one of our
senior leaders here.
He came back on a Tuesday, saidwe think we can do this.
(07:20):
On Wednesday, they sent out acall, and seven faculty members
on that Friday got on a planeand went to Germany and decided
that they were going to carrysuitcases full of papers and
briefs and everything that theyneeded to teach classes rather
than clothes.
So I tell people since that day,we have been jumping around the
globe.
We've at some point served onall seven continents, including
(07:41):
Antarctica, and have been insome interesting places moving
as the military has moved aroundthe globe.
So we have spent a lot of timetrying to understand how do you
teach learners innon-traditional environments,
how do you teach adults, butalso how do you teach when all
kinds of other factors are goingto come into play that may not
have anything to do directlywith the classroom, but will
also impact the learning.
(08:03):
So is there a commencementceremony on Antarctica?
No, it'll be a very small one, avery small one, yes.
But it is a lot of fun toactually hear the stories of
people and being in the dark fora long period of time and saying
one of the ways to keep fromgoing crazy is to take a class.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Well, you see, I'm just looking for a good excuse
to do a podcast in Antarctica.
So why the University ofAmerican?
Because you are part of theUniversity of Maryland system.
Yes.
You told us a little bit aboutthe history, but how did it
actually how did Global Campuscome to be?
Sure.
Sure.
And and how did how is it thatthe University of Maryland got
(08:43):
into this type of education?
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
So when we did decide to send those over at the
time, it was the University ofMaryland large.
There was not a system ofMaryland, by the way, up until
about 50 years ago.
There were schools within thestate, but the system came into
being, give or take about 50years ago.
And one of the things that nowis true is that, of course, we
are one of 12 schools.
We're the largest here in thestate of Maryland, but we are
(09:07):
the most unique also in thestate of Maryland.
We've certainly got the flagshipinstitution that is College
Park, which is exactly what youthink about in a lot of places.
But you've also got theUniversity of Maryland,
Baltimore, University ofMaryland, Eastern Shore.
You've got the regionalinstitutions like Salisbury and
Thomson.
You've certainly got the HBCUs,we've got three within the
system as well.
So it is a mixture of differenttypes of educational
(09:27):
institutions, all of which servetheir populations well.
For us, once we started dealingwith the military in 1947 to 49,
we went to Europe, 1955-56, wedid a similar thing in Asia.
And in the 1980s, we went intothe Middle East.
And therefore, you see educationcenters everywhere around the
globe.
But of course, what that nowmeans is not just active duty
(09:49):
military, you're talkingveterans, you're talking
spouses.
And in different places aroundthe world, you're talking about
all different types ofmodalities of learning that we
are trying to do.
So certainly face-to-face, whichis what we started.
A lot of the people think of us,of course, in our online
capacity, but we didn't get intothat until well into the 1980s.
As Europe began to, we began topull out of Europe.
(10:10):
Obviously, we can come with adifferent business model to the
military began to pull out ofEurope.
So we've learned a lot aboutface-to-face, a lot about
hybrid, a lot about learning howto teach in various types of
even non-real classrooms.
So what I mean by that is not aplace where you're going to see
desks and textbooks in thetraditional sense.
I've got a picture over here inmy office of service members
(10:31):
sitting on a tank actually takeclass.
And another one was servicemembers sitting on a beach.
So it's a lot of fun to behearing the stories of people
and the various ways they'retrying to learn around the globe
since then.
So that is how we um began toget into that space.
Once again, as I said in the1980s, we got into the online
space and have been in sincethen and continue to do that,
but we also continue to do thoseface-to-face experiences as
(10:53):
well.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
As a former member of the military, you know, I and
I was in the military thoseearly 80s.
I wish I would have known aboutUMGC because, you know, there
there didn't appear to be a lotof options for me.
I didn't go to college until twoyears after I got out of the
military.
So having that opportunity,being able to study and take a
(11:16):
test on the plane as I'm gettingready to jump out of the plane
would have been great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
But those are different competencies that we
might be able to give you creditfor at some point.
SPEAKER_01 (11:25):
I may I may need to go back to UMGC at some point.
So how how would you describeyour mission today?
I know you've sort of grew uparound the military, but what
when when you talk to people inthe elevator, how do you
describe the UMGC mission today?
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
So the first thing I talk about is we are certainly
going to talk to serve thenon-traditional and adult
learner in ways that serve themthat traditional education may
not be able to do.
But I always try to frame thatas this is an expansion of what
education is.
It is not a replacement.
And I try to make sure peoplehear that because sometimes when
you're dealing with a lot of thework that we do, people see it
(12:04):
as you're trying to displaceresidential learning.
It's like, no, we still needclearly residential learning.
We still need our oneinstitutions.
What we are trying to do is makesure that we meet those students
in the circumstances where theyare.
So you hear people say thatsometimes when they mean talk
about geography, that'scertainly been true for us, but
also trying to think about thevarious modalities.
(12:24):
How do we make sure that whenwe're thinking about learning,
we're thinking about theacquisition of new skills, new
abilities?
And sometimes that is, we canhelp you acquire them.
And also one of the things we'rethinking a lot about is how can
we credential the types oflearning that you are doing
outside of traditionalclassrooms?
We we use that phrase lifelonglearning a lot.
And the reality is that you'regoing to learn far more in your
(12:47):
life outside of a traditionalclassroom than you're ever going
to learn in it.
So we're looking at various waysto try to make sure that we're
looking at learning and makingsure that we credential some of
those things, even if it didn'thappen in our classrooms,
because that needs to have valueas well.
So wherever learning happens, wewant to make sure we tag it and
give students credit for it inways that allow them to
transition and transform theirlives.
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
So there's been a lot of talk about credit for
prior learning.
I know here in California, we'vebeen beating that drum for some
time.
There seems to finally be somemomentum.
I think the more that we talkabout skills, skill acquisition,
someday skills-based hiring mayactually become a reality.
How how do you approach creditfor prior learning, particularly
(13:31):
those members of the military?
Because I know when I got out ofthe military, I hardly got one
credit.
I think I had one credit forphysical education or something
like that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
Well, I can tell you that I was actually over in
Fuji, Japan, our location atCamp Fuji, you know, that
beautiful mountain that's rightthere in the middle of the
country.
And I was talking to a sergeantmajor who was getting ready to
graduate.
This is maybe three or fouryears ago.
And we were talking about hisexperiences, and he was telling
me that when he joined UMGC,some of his first classes were
around things likeorganizational leadership.
(14:01):
And I and I was talking to him,I said, organizational
leadership, huh?
And he said, Yep.
And I said, I bet you could havetaught that class.
And he's like, I probably couldhave.
And we came back to that and Istarted thinking about are there
ways that we can give directcredit for rank in the military?
Because to get that right,they'll just give it to you as
you know.
You've got to actually go toacademies, you've got to
actually be observed.
(14:21):
A lot of the things that wethink about, when we think about
traditional assessment andevaluation, happen in the
military.
We just don't always documentthose things.
So when I started looking intoit, we talked to some of our
team members and began a processby which we are now able to give
students credit directly formilitary rank in some of our
classes.
We had the faculty come in andtake a look at here, the
(14:43):
academies that you would havehad if you are an E4, E5, E6.
Here are the ways that you'regoing to have been documenting
the things that you're trying todo.
So that allows them to, youknow, move faster, save money,
and get credit for those typesof things.
We have, we launched that lastOctober, and I think we've had
some 10,000 service members takeadvantage of it, saving some$11
million in that period of timesince then.
(15:06):
So we are looking at how do weexpand that?
Because that was specificallyfor things like leadership and
management, which were easy tosort of do.
But are there ways that we cando that even more so across the
board?
Certainly with our military, butalso think about we can do the
same thing with firstresponders, for example, or
other populations when we'retalking to businesses, thinking
about are there ways that we cancertify that?
(15:27):
So again, that we can savestudents time and money as
they're trying to move forward.
So we're thinking about priorlearning or current learning in
ways that we can again tag,certify, and allow students to
move on in ways that will givethem something that will allow
them to continue to transformtheir lives.
SPEAKER_01 (15:43):
So you mentioned two phrases that are in discussion a
lot these days.
You know, my day job at CollegeFutures, we just launched a
return on investment study onall of our two-year community
colleges and certificate runninginstitutions.
And we also did a CaliforniaMobility Index, which measured
(16:05):
the return on investment and theeconomic mobility that our
four-year institutions provide.
So this whole notion about timeand money, it's a critical issue
for learners today, not justworking learners, but every
learner.
You know, they want to know whatthey're going to get in return
for the investment of time,investment of money, investment
(16:26):
of themselves taking away timefrom their work and their
family, toward their, you know,they're in.
And 99% of the learners that Italk to, that return is an
economic return, a better life,a better job, a better foothold
in the economy.
And that creates better valuefor the learner.
(16:47):
And I think that's that'ssomething that us broadly in
higher education have not put aclear focus on.
But you've been doing that forsome time.
So in in this day and age, howdo you continue that march
toward greater efficiency andeffectiveness for the learner?
SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
Yes, yes.
You know, a mutual colleague ofours, Paul LeBlanc, once said,
and I've never forgotten thatthat time is the enemy of the
poor.
Right.
And when particularly we thinkabout access to education, time
to actually go to classes or tostudy, while you're also trying
to work and also take care ofyour families, we often re-
point out the fact that we willnever be as an educational
(17:25):
institution ever better than thethird best priority of a person
based after their job and theirfamilies.
And we have to be okay withthat.
So one of the things we spend alot of time thinking about is
are there varying ways that wecan think of assessing students
that matches the lifestyles inwhich they are living?
I was mentioning a little bitago this work we're going to the
military, but also when we'retalking to the retail industry
(17:47):
and talking about what'shappening on the job that we
might actually be able toevaluate.
And rather than putting them ina to a classroom, can we think
about what's happening on thejob?
Certainly you see here in thestate of Maryland, I'm sure
across the country, this wholeconversation about teachers.
And we have a lot of placeswhere we are putting substitute
teachers or introductions toteaching out there for students
(18:09):
to introductions for people whowant to go into teaching to get
into the classroom.
So if we're going to have themin the classroom, they're going
to be immersed into theseexperiences.
Are there ways that we canassess what they are doing
rather than having them to spendan additional amount of time
trying to go back to a differentsetting to get those types of
things done?
So more and more we are askingthe question of are there
(18:29):
various ways that we don'tcurrently measure because we're
so comfortable with thetraditional evaluation tools
that are out there that we couldactually do in some different
ways.
I believe very firmly that AI inparticular is really negating a
lot of traditional ways that wehave assessed, whether it's
writing papers or answeringmultiple choice tests.
And the only way to actuallyreally measure whether someone
(18:52):
has something is to put them inthe scenarios in which they're
going to have to perform thosetypes of things.
So whether we're talking virtualtools where we immerse them in
first day as the manager on thejob or first day as a teacher in
a classroom, can we do more ofthose types of things?
Can we do more things that haveinteractions directly that allow
us to do something similar tooral examinations at scale by
(19:13):
using AI to help us do thesetypes of things as well?
So more and more we are tryingto find ways to save people time
and money and also understandand meet them where they are
when it comes to the ways thatthey can be assessed.
You you probably know betterthan I do the whole issues many
years ago around standardizedtesting and are we really
measuring skill sets as opposedto getting people to answer
(19:33):
questions in a certain way.
I think that that's a veryimportant issue right now.
It's really, do they or do theynot have the skill?
As you know, I spent a number ofyears at WTU.
And the question ultimately was,are they competent or are they
not?
Not have they failed, but arethey competent or are they not?
And if they aren't, how do weget them to a level of
competency as they move forward?
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
I certainly believe that the currency of the future
in learning will be show me whatyou can do, show me the skills
that you have, rather than showme where you got your diploma
from.
So I think that march towardthat future is happening more
and more every day.
(20:13):
I think the recent conversationsin in Washington, D.C.
around opening up workforcePell, looking at accreditation a
little differently, thinkingmore broadly about the
connection between learningskills and employment.
I think that positions you quitenicely as we move into the
future.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
Yeah, this is one of the things that I have said as
you're looking at the disruptionof various industries.
In most of the cases that we aretalking about, people do more of
the activity now than they everhave in human history.
People listen to more music now.
They actually read more newsnow.
And I would say that people arehaving access to more learning
opportunities and learningexperiences now than they ever
(20:55):
have.
They just aren't necessarilygoing to be the way that people
have traditionally thought aboutit.
Now, how do we adapt to it?
We can do the whole thing likeKodak and you know tuck our head
in the sand and hope thatdigital photography is not going
to happen.
Or we can try to embrace it andmove forward and try to figure
out how do we leverage thesethings to provide more
opportunities to more learnersas they are moving forward.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Well, you mentioned Western Governors University.
You obviously spent time atSouthern New Hampshire
University.
You're familiar with some of theother online universities there
on the East Coast.
There's University ofMassachusetts Global Campus,
there's Empire State in the SUNYsystem.
A lot more emphasis on designingfor working learners, for adult
(21:42):
learners.
Given your experience in allthose settings, and I think it's
it's it's quite nice that thatthese examples are now exemplars
of excellence rather than theoutliers anymore, that a lot
more public and privateinstitutions are looking to you
and the and the universe ofinstitutions that you're
(22:04):
associated with on how to betterdesign.
What sets UMGC apart in yourmind from some of those other
institutions?
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Well, I certainly think the intentionality, and I
think that as you had said aminute ago, more and more
institutions are having to movebeyond that sort of black box of
education as it has been knownfor a long time, where we simply
say people just trust us, weknow what we're doing.
And now, and as we can see, andin many cases, people are saying
we don't just trust you.
We want to actually evidence andoutcomes that demonstrate this
(22:33):
type of thing.
So one of the things we try todo very much so is make sure
that on a number of differentways, we are operating with
intentionality.
What does that mean?
That we are purposely bringingin businesses to talk to us
about the skills that we aretrying to put into our
assessments, into our learningexperiences.
We're purposely designing withan understanding of here's how
learning actually happens, asopposed to some of the ways that
(22:55):
we have traditionally thoughtabout it.
We are purposely bringingstudents into that conversation
to design and help us understandfrom a user experience
perspective what's working andwhat's not.
And all of these things, beingable to say one of the examples
that I use a lot is when I go tothe gym, when I'm working with
my personal trainer, if I'mtrying to do X or Y, how do I
set a path that's going to getme there?
(23:16):
So yeah, you probably know thatat the beginning of every year,
there's the resolutionists, as Icall them, who show up at the
gym and have a presence thatthey want to actually move
things forward.
But they're gone at threemonths.
When I but what I look at is thepersonal trainer working with
them to say, how are you, whatare you trying to accomplish?
You're trying to run a marathon,you're trying to bench press
320.
Let us create a plan and let meshow you how that plan is going
(23:37):
to get you there.
That's the kind of thing thatwe're trying to do with learning
as well.
How do we lay out a plan thatsays, when you're going to be
able to do this tomorrow thatyou can't do today?
Because here are the thingswe're going to do as a result.
SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
What are some of the things that you can see
happening now that you couldn'tsee, say, three years ago with
the explosion of AI?
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Certainly, again, I mentioned a minute ago the idea
of assessment, but I love thisidea of a personal assistant.
You know, this idea of you mayremember the old Disney movie uh
Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket.
I have this idea in my head of apersonal Jiminy Cricket for
every single person who's comingalong.
So, how do we create that typeof environment?
(24:19):
Is one of the big things thatwe're talking about.
You see AI as a remedial toolthat can help you.
You may remember that wholeconversation years ago about the
flipped classroom.
In a lot of ways, having apersonal experience or personal
assistant who can work you, workwith you through those types of
things allows for us to leveragethe classroom time or the
assessment time more effectivelyand hopefully guarantee better
(24:42):
that you are able to do thethings that we are talking about
as you are moving forward.
So I see AI helping, at leastright now, augment our
abilities.
Some of our colleagues often saythe age should actually stand
more for augmented intelligencerather than artificial
intelligence because a lot of itis it will help the skill sets
of our instructors, of ourfaculty members, and also of the
advisors and others to figureout how to personalize this
(25:05):
experience.
For a long time, this was aconversation about
customization.
And customization just doesn'tscale, but personalization is
something that can scale if wehave the right tools and
information in there.
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Yeah, I agree.
I just think about the work Idid leading into this podcast
and this podcast in and ofitself, leveraging AI in all
sorts of different forms that Idon't even notice anymore.
But they're augmenting myskills, whether it be using
grammarly to look through myscript to see if there's any
grammar errors, or at the end ofthis, the software that I'm
(25:39):
using to edit this podcast willcreate text out of our entire
conversation and makesuggestions and think about
different ways of editing thepodcast itself.
So it really is, as you said, itaugments, it doesn't replace me,
not yet, at least.
Perhaps someday, but not quiteyet.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
But but to your point, one of the things we are
talking about to your uh to whatyou're saying there is imagine a
world where in that personalassistance abilities, you you
have various ways that you canengage with the learning
resource.
And the assignment may be readthese 50 pages.
And the personal assistant isable to say, I know you have a
short attention span, or I knowyou go more comfortable with a
(26:19):
different type of modality.
So can I translate that into apodcast?
Can I translate that into avideo?
Would you prefer for that to bein your native language?
You prefer, I mean, all thevarious ways that you can take
material and re-reimagine it issomething that we should be
looking at.
And again, it doesn't mean thatyou don't have to gain the
skills, but the way you go aboutdoing that will be a very a bit
(26:41):
different.
You you probably heard mywonderful karate kid metaphor,
where I said a number of timesthat, you know, Daniel LaRusso
still has to learn karate, buthe's not gonna do so on a
traditional dojo.
And he's not gonna, but but hehas an instructor who knows how
to teach him.
He has the resources that heneeds.
And at the end of the day, he'sstill got to pass the
assessment.
He's got to participate in thetournament.
(27:01):
And he can't get around that.
But he may acquire those skillsin a way that's much more
comfortable to him.
So imagine if everybody hadtheir own Mr.
Miyagi who could teach you waxon, XOF, and all the things that
you can do.
Exactly right.
So this is how I think DI canhelp us if we spend our time
thinking about theopportunities.
Clearly, there are somechallenges, but that's always
(27:22):
going to be true for anytechnology.
But at the same time, I thinkwe've got to be able to leverage
these things to help morelearners succeed, particularly
in places where they might nothave other opportunities.
And that's what UMGC reallybelieves.
It's like you've got to be in ajungle in the middle of Korea.
We can still figure out a way tohelp you gain those learning
experiences.
If you've only got four weeksbecause the submarine is only
(27:43):
going to be import for thatlong, then we're going to make
sure we can craft something foryou.
If you are in Guam and we aredoing a course in Okinawa, can
we live stream it to you?
I think the more we're thinkingabout the various ways we can
create opportunity for learners,the better off we're going to
be.
And I think that is something wehave done for the last 77 years
(28:04):
or so in a way that no one elsereally does.
I do love my colleagues in theplaces I've been before, but to
this point, when I say globalcampus, you know, my previous
title is president of globalcampus at SNA2.
Right.
But we weren't thinking of,okay, what's happening in
Bahrain?
A couple of weeks ago, we had toevacuate all of our people out
of the Middle East right beforethe U.S.
bombed a ramp.
They gave us a, we have noticethat says you probably should
(28:26):
move your people out.
So all of a sudden it becomes inBahrain, in Jordan, in the UAE,
Saudi Arabia.
How do we rapidly move peopleout and also still take care of
the students who are still thereon those bases?
So these are places and waysthat we are constantly trying to
think about.
We still got to get this done.
We've just got to be able tothink outside of the box to get
it done.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
Well, there you go.
That's truly a global campus.
Let me ask you something sort ofcontemporary.
All of us in sort of the highered world these days have been
dealing with a lot of differentstressors, a lot of changes, a
lot of, you know, whether it beexecutive orders coming that we
people have to decipher andunderstand what this means to my
(29:09):
institution or my learner,changes that the reconciliation
bill has put into motion, thechanges at the Department of
Education, you know, who do youtalk to?
What does this mean to myinstitution?
How are you and your leadershipteam dealing with all of the
motion and uncertainty that hasgripped the higher education
(29:31):
marketplace over the last sixmonths?
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
So I will start with, I think it was Vincent
Churchill.
I may not be right about this,but that wonderful sticker that
you see a lot often that sayskeep calm and carry on is one of
the things that we we startwith.
First of all, let's make sure wehave an understanding of what's
being said as opposed to what isreality.
One of the things we've had tolearn very, very rapidly is to
(29:54):
make sure that we have the factsbefore we try to respond to
things.
You know, and given the theEnvironment that we're operating
in.
Everybody wants you to try tocomment on every single thing.
And we've tried to create anenvironment that says, here's
what we know, here's what we areworking on, and we'll try to be
as transparent about thesethings as possible.
So I think creating a culture,we often talk about the only
(30:16):
constant is change, but changeis happening in so many
different ways right now.
So how do you create a culturethat can actually function in a
reasonable way has been one ofthe big things that we're
talking about.
Because today it could be oneitem, tomorrow it could be a
different item.
And some of these things areabsolutely positive for us.
You mentioned a little whileago, the idea of workforce pill
(30:36):
is something that we are strongadvocates for.
We we absolutely believe that'ssomething that then it becomes
so how does it roll out?
How do we leverage thoseopportunities?
And how do we continue to moveas we need to?
I think that's probably thebiggest single lesson of this,
which is one, you can't respondto everything and you shouldn't.
And two, how do you make sureyou create a culture in which
people can continue to see theNorth Star, let's the
(30:59):
opportunities that are in frontof them?
We've worked very hard at thatover the last period of time.
And certainly within the system,as you can imagine, again, 12
schools, different missions,different populations, we're
constantly trying to leverageeach other to say, okay, so what
does that mean for you?
In this case, this is a positivefor you.
That's a challenge for someoneelse.
This is an opportunity overhere.
(31:19):
So trying to make sure we keepour networks functioning in a
way that allows us to stay ontop of things.
But again, the big goal of allof this is to be deliberate and,
you know, responsive in a waythat calms the waters rather
than adds to the chaos.
SPEAKER_01 (31:35):
Well, the more you can be intentional about your
North Star, the more that youbecome an anchor for your
learners, for your faculty, foryour staff.
I think you're providingstability in a time where there
is a lot of uncertainty.
So I certainly commend you onthat approach.
SPEAKER_00 (31:53):
As I said, I taught our team, and I was looking at
some of the records here, and wewere located.
You know, we had a class that'sbeing held just under Mount
Penatuba when it exploded manyyears ago.
Like my team is like, you thinkyou think you got chaos?
Right.
Let's talk about let's talkabout what's happening in an
active battle zone.
You know, our faculty membersaround the world right now
(32:13):
literally are operating in someof these places where at 2
o'clock in the morning thesirens are going off for them to
go to the bonkers.
They are teaching classes.
I get regular reports from ourteam on here's how many times we
actually had to go to thebonkers here, so many times our
classes were interrupted.
Again, a couple of weeks agowhen things had really blown up,
I was getting pictures from theMiddle East of missiles flying
(32:33):
overhead and people saying,Well, what are we going to do
about these types of things?
So it's always been a situationof how do you operate in these
spaces?
And I tell my team the NorthStar continues to be our mission
is to serve our learners.
And we have done so under somevery challenging circumstances.
We will continue to function inthis way as we continue to move
forward.
(32:54):
And the more you point back tothe mission, and most of the
people who I engage here withhere are passionate about that
work of figuring out how to helplearners, the more it helps them
to focus in on what's reallyimportant.
And that is, are there ways thatwe can continue to do what we
came here to do in the firstplace?
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
Well, amen to that, Greg.
Let me ask you one finalquestion as we begin to wrap up.
Where would you like to see uhUMGC over the next five years?
What's what's on the frontierfor you and your team?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
So I mentioned a little bit earlier this whole
idea of what does the learningexperience look like as we
continue to move into thefuture.
You know, five years from now,what I really like us to be even
better at is finding all thosevarious ways that people have
acquired skills and ensuringthat they're able to have the
mobility that we're talkingabout by making sure as many of
(33:46):
those ways as possible havesucceeded in giving them the
credit they need to moveforward.
So I everything I think we'retalking about right now, the
nature of instruction, thenature of learning resources,
the nature of student supportwill change a lot as the
technology continues to moveforward.
I hope we can see those thingsas an opportunity and not a
threat, and to leverage thosethings to help even more people
(34:07):
succeed in all the places aroundthe country where right now we
don't necessarily always seethat.
One of the things that we spenda lot of time talking about are
the education deserts.
We talk a lot about the ruralareas of the country.
We talk a lot about the variouspopulations who haven't been
served as well as they couldbecause we couldn't reach them
in ways that actually beidentified with.
So these are all things that Ienvision UMGC leveraging the
(34:28):
next generation of itsexperiences to figure out new
ways to do that.
Sometimes right here in theUnited States as well as in the
places overseas that we'veworked on so much.
So the better we can do that,the better off we're gonna be.
But one other thing I'll add tothat is I also see us partnering
more with organizations andother universities to try to
make sure that we all arehelping more students.
(34:51):
You know, I'm a member of thePresident's Forum, which you
know well.
And one of the things we'veoften said is that all of our
schools together, doing all thegreat work that we're doing,
still serve less than 1% of theentire student population that
needs to be served.
There's lots of work that we canall do to make sure that more
learners succeed, even as we'retrying to make sure we
differentiate ourselves and putout their opportunities for
(35:11):
different learners.
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
I think that's a a great opportunity for a group of
institutions to really show theway forward, particularly with
this group of learners.
And it's a way to recapture theconfidence of learners.
Yes.
You know, making sure that theysee the value in what they're
investing in, that they'reseeing the economic return, that
(35:33):
they're seeing their learningactually show up in their career
choices.
So Greg, I really appreciate thework that you and your team are
doing.
If our listeners want to learnmore about UMGC, where should we
point them to to get moreinformation?
SPEAKER_00 (35:50):
Certainly the umgc.edu site is out there doing
a good job of trying to tell ourstory.
We're putting more and moreinformation out there on YouTube
about the various types ofthings because as you can
imagine, but in fact, just thislast week we had our first TEDx
that we hosted in Okinawa.
And so trying to figure out moreand more ways to provide those.
So umgc.edu, and from there youcan see all the various ways
(36:11):
wherever you are in the countrythat we are trying to engage you
wherever you are.
SPEAKER_01 (36:16):
All right.
Well, Greg, listen, thank youfor taking the time to be on the
Rant Podcast.
I appreciate your leadership andappreciate what you and your
team are doing at UMGC.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
Thank you.
I continue doing this kind ofwork because as always, we we
need more and more people tryingto tell that story.
Thank you, Eloy.
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
All right.
Well, thank you.
And thanks everybody for joiningus here on the Rant Podcast.
You've been listening to myconversation with Dr.
Greg Fowler, president of theUniversity of Maryland Global
Campus, UMGC.
Please continue to follow us.
Hit subscribe if you'refollowing us here on this
YouTube channel.
And if you're listening to us onyour favorite podcast platform,
(36:54):
continue to follow us, downloadevery episode, and we will be
back to you soon with more greatcontent.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you
soon.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz Oakley.
Welcome back to the RantPodcast, the podcast where we
pull back the curtain and breakdown the people, the policies,
and the politics of our highereducation system.
In this episode, I sit down withGreg Fowler, president of the
University of Maryland GlobalCampus, UMGC.
(00:33):
Greg and his team at UMGC havebeen serving working learners
for decades.
Since World War II, as a matterof fact.
We'll hear more from Greg aboutthe history of UMGC and how
they're serving workinglearners, but they are an
excellent example of what moreand more colleges and
universities need to do today.
(00:55):
And that is intentionallydesigned with the learner in
mind.
I'll talk to Greg about hisexperiences at UMGC, how his
team is thinking about teachingand learning going into the
future, their work with themilitary, which is extensive,
and the fact that they are trulya global campus with sites all
(01:15):
across the world.
We'll also talk about hisexperiences with other adult
learning institutions likeSouthern New Hampshire
University and WGU.
So Greg's experiences plus histime at UMGC will give us great
insights as to what highereducation leaders need to think
about in terms of better servingworking learners.
(01:38):
And this topic couldn't be moreimportant than it is today
because as we're thinking aboutcreating more value for more
learners in more places and forpost-secondary institutions to
truly regain the confidence thatthe public has in them, they
must do a better job of servingthe millions of working learners
(02:01):
throughout this great country.
These are individuals who arestruggling in today's economy,
trying to get the skills thatthey need in order to have a
good paying job.
And either they never went tocollege or they went to college
but didn't complete.
Or in many cases they went tocollege and got their degree and
now have to come back to reskillor upskill because the program
(02:24):
and study that they chose didnot give them the economic
outcome that they were lookingfor.
So this conversation with Gregis very timely.
There's a lot of conversation inCongress, a lot of conversation
in states throughout the countryabout how to better align
post-secondary institutions withthe needs of working learners.
In my day job at CollegeFutures, I and my team are
(02:47):
focused on this issue.
Trying to get at the root ofwhat does it mean to truly
design, intentionally design forthe needs of working learners.
Now is the time to do that.
Whether you are a fully onlineinstitution like a UMGC and been
doing this for many, many years,or you're a four-year regional
(03:08):
who is struggling.
I certainly think about theexample here in California, the
California State Universitysystem, which is going through
significant turmoil, not justbecause of what's going on in
Washington, DC, but because ofwhat's going on with learners
themselves.
The challenges that they facewith enrollment decline in the
(03:28):
far north of the state, thechallenges that they have in
ensuring that beyond completinga program of study, that there
is the economic outcome for thelearners that they serve, the
challenges that they face inextending the reach of their
teaching and learning, and meetlearners where they're at.
These are struggles that everyregional public university is
(03:52):
facing and most private liberalarts institutions are facing.
So the example that I'm going tospeak with Greg Fowler about is
a great example to look at formany higher education leaders
today.
Not that UMGC has cornered themarket on all the solutions, but
what they have done is fordecades focused on the needs of
(04:15):
their learners and trying tomeet their needs where they're
at.
And in the case of UMGC, it'smeeting military individuals and
their families, where they'reat, whether they're on the
battlefield, whether they're inthe barracks, or whether they're
training in some country that wedon't even know about.
So I look forward to continuingthis conversation with some of
(04:38):
our other guests.
How do you intentionally designfor the working learner?
But in the meantime, pleaseenjoy my conversation with the
president of the University ofMaryland Global Campus, Greg
Fowler.
Greg, welcome to the RantPodcast.
Glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Well, it's great to see you.
Great to have you on the RantPodcast.
(05:01):
We've been talking about havingyou and UMGC on the podcast for
some time.
So I'm glad this day has finallycome.
This is a great time to betalking to you about the work
you and your team are doing.
But first, let me begin with howare you doing?
How are you and your team doingwith all the stuff that's been
going on over the last severalmonths?
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
We're doing okay.
We are constantly, of course,like everyone else, trying to
make sure we stay abreast ofthings that we need to be
focusing on.
One of the things that I thinkis unique about UMGC, of course,
is that we are operating at 175plus locations around the globe.
So there's so many differentimpacts of different things that
we are trying to deal with.
Certainly you're talking aboutthe political world, but you're
(05:40):
also talking about, you mayrecall a couple of weeks ago
there was an earthquake inRussia.
That earthquake triggered awhole bunch of tsunami warnings
for locations in Hawaii andOkinawa.
We had one here.
So it's the same type of thingthat we are constantly thinking
about.
So what are our locations aroundthe globe having to respond to?
It's one of those things we arealways on top of, but we are
(06:00):
staying abreast of these things.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Well, it's good to hear that you have some
additional worries in just yournormal brick and mortar
president.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Oh, yes, yes.
It is definitely one of thosethings where I'm a little bit,
you know, president, a littlebit meteorologist, a little bit
geologist.
I'm learning all kinds of newskills in this role.
SPEAKER_01 (06:18):
Right.
I I bet.
I bet.
Well, so you know, it's alwaysinteresting to me how different
universities title their onlinepresence.
There's a lot of global campusesout there, but you are truly a
global campus.
171 locations all around theglobe.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
That is absolutely right.
Many years ago, right at the endof World War II, the U.S.
government decided that it wasgoing to try to educate those
service members who were, at thetime, they thought were coming
home.
And then, of course, it becamequite evident with the Marshall
Plan and other things that we'regoing to have quite a number of
troops stationed overseas.
And so they sent out a call toall the institutions in the
country to talk about who mightbe able to go over there.
(06:59):
And of course, institutionsasked the logical questions
where where will our offices be?
We aren't quite sure.
Where will our classes be?
We aren't quite sure.
And so by the time it was overwith, only the University of
Maryland was willing to sendsomeone over there to try it
out.
And I often like to tell thestory of we sent over one of our
senior leaders here.
He came back on a Tuesday, saidwe think we can do this.
(07:20):
On Wednesday, they sent out acall, and seven faculty members
on that Friday got on a planeand went to Germany and decided
that they were going to carrysuitcases full of papers and
briefs and everything that theyneeded to teach classes rather
than clothes.
So I tell people since that day,we have been jumping around the
globe.
We've at some point served onall seven continents, including
(07:41):
Antarctica, and have been insome interesting places moving
as the military has moved aroundthe globe.
So we have spent a lot of timetrying to understand how do you
teach learners innon-traditional environments,
how do you teach adults, butalso how do you teach when all
kinds of other factors are goingto come into play that may not
have anything to do directlywith the classroom, but will
also impact the learning.
(08:03):
So is there a commencementceremony on Antarctica?
No, it'll be a very small one, avery small one, yes.
But it is a lot of fun toactually hear the stories of
people and being in the dark fora long period of time and saying
one of the ways to keep fromgoing crazy is to take a class.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Well, you see, I'm just looking for a good excuse
to do a podcast in Antarctica.
So why the University ofAmerican?
Because you are part of theUniversity of Maryland system.
Yes.
You told us a little bit aboutthe history, but how did it
actually how did Global Campuscome to be?
Sure.
Sure.
And and how did how is it thatthe University of Maryland got
(08:43):
into this type of education?
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
So when we did decide to send those over at the
time, it was the University ofMaryland large.
There was not a system ofMaryland, by the way, up until
about 50 years ago.
There were schools within thestate, but the system came into
being, give or take about 50years ago.
And one of the things that nowis true is that, of course, we
are one of 12 schools.
We're the largest here in thestate of Maryland, but we are
(09:07):
the most unique also in thestate of Maryland.
We've certainly got the flagshipinstitution that is College
Park, which is exactly what youthink about in a lot of places.
But you've also got theUniversity of Maryland,
Baltimore, University ofMaryland, Eastern Shore.
You've got the regionalinstitutions like Salisbury and
Thomson.
You've certainly got the HBCUs,we've got three within the
system as well.
So it is a mixture of differenttypes of educational
(09:27):
institutions, all of which servetheir populations well.
For us, once we started dealingwith the military in 1947 to 49,
we went to Europe, 1955-56, wedid a similar thing in Asia.
And in the 1980s, we went intothe Middle East.
And therefore, you see educationcenters everywhere around the
globe.
But of course, what that nowmeans is not just active duty
(09:49):
military, you're talkingveterans, you're talking
spouses.
And in different places aroundthe world, you're talking about
all different types ofmodalities of learning that we
are trying to do.
So certainly face-to-face, whichis what we started.
A lot of the people think of us,of course, in our online
capacity, but we didn't get intothat until well into the 1980s.
As Europe began to, we began topull out of Europe.
(10:10):
Obviously, we can come with adifferent business model to the
military began to pull out ofEurope.
So we've learned a lot aboutface-to-face, a lot about
hybrid, a lot about learning howto teach in various types of
even non-real classrooms.
So what I mean by that is not aplace where you're going to see
desks and textbooks in thetraditional sense.
I've got a picture over here inmy office of service members
(10:31):
sitting on a tank actually takeclass.
And another one was servicemembers sitting on a beach.
So it's a lot of fun to behearing the stories of people
and the various ways they'retrying to learn around the globe
since then.
So that is how we um began toget into that space.
Once again, as I said in the1980s, we got into the online
space and have been in sincethen and continue to do that,
but we also continue to do thoseface-to-face experiences as
(10:53):
well.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
As a former member of the military, you know, I and
I was in the military thoseearly 80s.
I wish I would have known aboutUMGC because, you know, there
there didn't appear to be a lotof options for me.
I didn't go to college until twoyears after I got out of the
military.
So having that opportunity,being able to study and take a
(11:16):
test on the plane as I'm gettingready to jump out of the plane
would have been great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
But those are different competencies that we
might be able to give you creditfor at some point.
SPEAKER_01 (11:25):
I may I may need to go back to UMGC at some point.
So how how would you describeyour mission today?
I know you've sort of grew uparound the military, but what
when when you talk to people inthe elevator, how do you
describe the UMGC mission today?
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
So the first thing I talk about is we are certainly
going to talk to serve thenon-traditional and adult
learner in ways that serve themthat traditional education may
not be able to do.
But I always try to frame thatas this is an expansion of what
education is.
It is not a replacement.
And I try to make sure peoplehear that because sometimes when
you're dealing with a lot of thework that we do, people see it
(12:04):
as you're trying to displaceresidential learning.
It's like, no, we still needclearly residential learning.
We still need our oneinstitutions.
What we are trying to do is makesure that we meet those students
in the circumstances where theyare.
So you hear people say thatsometimes when they mean talk
about geography, that'scertainly been true for us, but
also trying to think about thevarious modalities.
(12:24):
How do we make sure that whenwe're thinking about learning,
we're thinking about theacquisition of new skills, new
abilities?
And sometimes that is, we canhelp you acquire them.
And also one of the things we'rethinking a lot about is how can
we credential the types oflearning that you are doing
outside of traditionalclassrooms?
We we use that phrase lifelonglearning a lot.
And the reality is that you'regoing to learn far more in your
(12:47):
life outside of a traditionalclassroom than you're ever going
to learn in it.
So we're looking at various waysto try to make sure that we're
looking at learning and makingsure that we credential some of
those things, even if it didn'thappen in our classrooms,
because that needs to have valueas well.
So wherever learning happens, wewant to make sure we tag it and
give students credit for it inways that allow them to
transition and transform theirlives.
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
So there's been a lot of talk about credit for
prior learning.
I know here in California, we'vebeen beating that drum for some
time.
There seems to finally be somemomentum.
I think the more that we talkabout skills, skill acquisition,
someday skills-based hiring mayactually become a reality.
How how do you approach creditfor prior learning, particularly
(13:31):
those members of the military?
Because I know when I got out ofthe military, I hardly got one
credit.
I think I had one credit forphysical education or something
like that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
Well, I can tell you that I was actually over in
Fuji, Japan, our location atCamp Fuji, you know, that
beautiful mountain that's rightthere in the middle of the
country.
And I was talking to a sergeantmajor who was getting ready to
graduate.
This is maybe three or fouryears ago.
And we were talking about hisexperiences, and he was telling
me that when he joined UMGC,some of his first classes were
around things likeorganizational leadership.
(14:01):
And I and I was talking to him,I said, organizational
leadership, huh?
And he said, Yep.
And I said, I bet you could havetaught that class.
And he's like, I probably couldhave.
And we came back to that and Istarted thinking about are there
ways that we can give directcredit for rank in the military?
Because to get that right,they'll just give it to you as
you know.
You've got to actually go toacademies, you've got to
actually be observed.
(14:21):
A lot of the things that wethink about, when we think about
traditional assessment andevaluation, happen in the
military.
We just don't always documentthose things.
So when I started looking intoit, we talked to some of our
team members and began a processby which we are now able to give
students credit directly formilitary rank in some of our
classes.
We had the faculty come in andtake a look at here, the
(14:43):
academies that you would havehad if you are an E4, E5, E6.
Here are the ways that you'regoing to have been documenting
the things that you're trying todo.
So that allows them to, youknow, move faster, save money,
and get credit for those typesof things.
We have, we launched that lastOctober, and I think we've had
some 10,000 service members takeadvantage of it, saving some$11
million in that period of timesince then.
(15:06):
So we are looking at how do weexpand that?
Because that was specificallyfor things like leadership and
management, which were easy tosort of do.
But are there ways that we cando that even more so across the
board?
Certainly with our military, butalso think about we can do the
same thing with firstresponders, for example, or
other populations when we'retalking to businesses, thinking
about are there ways that we cancertify that?
(15:27):
So again, that we can savestudents time and money as
they're trying to move forward.
So we're thinking about priorlearning or current learning in
ways that we can again tag,certify, and allow students to
move on in ways that will givethem something that will allow
them to continue to transformtheir lives.
SPEAKER_01 (15:43):
So you mentioned two phrases that are in discussion a
lot these days.
You know, my day job at CollegeFutures, we just launched a
return on investment study onall of our two-year community
colleges and certificate runninginstitutions.
And we also did a CaliforniaMobility Index, which measured
(16:05):
the return on investment and theeconomic mobility that our
four-year institutions provide.
So this whole notion about timeand money, it's a critical issue
for learners today, not justworking learners, but every
learner.
You know, they want to know whatthey're going to get in return
for the investment of time,investment of money, investment
(16:26):
of themselves taking away timefrom their work and their
family, toward their, you know,they're in.
And 99% of the learners that Italk to, that return is an
economic return, a better life,a better job, a better foothold
in the economy.
And that creates better valuefor the learner.
(16:47):
And I think that's that'ssomething that us broadly in
higher education have not put aclear focus on.
But you've been doing that forsome time.
So in in this day and age, howdo you continue that march
toward greater efficiency andeffectiveness for the learner?
SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
Yes, yes.
You know, a mutual colleague ofours, Paul LeBlanc, once said,
and I've never forgotten thatthat time is the enemy of the
poor.
Right.
And when particularly we thinkabout access to education, time
to actually go to classes or tostudy, while you're also trying
to work and also take care ofyour families, we often re-
point out the fact that we willnever be as an educational
(17:25):
institution ever better than thethird best priority of a person
based after their job and theirfamilies.
And we have to be okay withthat.
So one of the things we spend alot of time thinking about is
are there varying ways that wecan think of assessing students
that matches the lifestyles inwhich they are living?
I was mentioning a little bitago this work we're going to the
military, but also when we'retalking to the retail industry
(17:47):
and talking about what'shappening on the job that we
might actually be able toevaluate.
And rather than putting them ina to a classroom, can we think
about what's happening on thejob?
Certainly you see here in thestate of Maryland, I'm sure
across the country, this wholeconversation about teachers.
And we have a lot of placeswhere we are putting substitute
teachers or introductions toteaching out there for students
(18:09):
to introductions for people whowant to go into teaching to get
into the classroom.
So if we're going to have themin the classroom, they're going
to be immersed into theseexperiences.
Are there ways that we canassess what they are doing
rather than having them to spendan additional amount of time
trying to go back to a differentsetting to get those types of
things done?
So more and more we are askingthe question of are there
(18:29):
various ways that we don'tcurrently measure because we're
so comfortable with thetraditional evaluation tools
that are out there that we couldactually do in some different
ways.
I believe very firmly that AI inparticular is really negating a
lot of traditional ways that wehave assessed, whether it's
writing papers or answeringmultiple choice tests.
And the only way to actuallyreally measure whether someone
(18:52):
has something is to put them inthe scenarios in which they're
going to have to perform thosetypes of things.
So whether we're talking virtualtools where we immerse them in
first day as the manager on thejob or first day as a teacher in
a classroom, can we do more ofthose types of things?
Can we do more things that haveinteractions directly that allow
us to do something similar tooral examinations at scale by
(19:13):
using AI to help us do thesetypes of things as well?
So more and more we are tryingto find ways to save people time
and money and also understandand meet them where they are
when it comes to the ways thatthey can be assessed.
You you probably know betterthan I do the whole issues many
years ago around standardizedtesting and are we really
measuring skill sets as opposedto getting people to answer
(19:33):
questions in a certain way.
I think that that's a veryimportant issue right now.
It's really, do they or do theynot have the skill?
As you know, I spent a number ofyears at WTU.
And the question ultimately was,are they competent or are they
not?
Not have they failed, but arethey competent or are they not?
And if they aren't, how do weget them to a level of
competency as they move forward?
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
I certainly believe that the currency of the future
in learning will be show me whatyou can do, show me the skills
that you have, rather than showme where you got your diploma
from.
So I think that march towardthat future is happening more
and more every day.
(20:13):
I think the recent conversationsin in Washington, D.C.
around opening up workforcePell, looking at accreditation a
little differently, thinkingmore broadly about the
connection between learningskills and employment.
I think that positions you quitenicely as we move into the
future.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
Yeah, this is one of the things that I have said as
you're looking at the disruptionof various industries.
In most of the cases that we aretalking about, people do more of
the activity now than they everhave in human history.
People listen to more music now.
They actually read more newsnow.
And I would say that people arehaving access to more learning
opportunities and learningexperiences now than they ever
(20:55):
have.
They just aren't necessarilygoing to be the way that people
have traditionally thought aboutit.
Now, how do we adapt to it?
We can do the whole thing likeKodak and you know tuck our head
in the sand and hope thatdigital photography is not going
to happen.
Or we can try to embrace it andmove forward and try to figure
out how do we leverage thesethings to provide more
opportunities to more learnersas they are moving forward.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Well, you mentioned Western Governors University.
You obviously spent time atSouthern New Hampshire
University.
You're familiar with some of theother online universities there
on the East Coast.
There's University ofMassachusetts Global Campus,
there's Empire State in the SUNYsystem.
A lot more emphasis on designingfor working learners, for adult
(21:42):
learners.
Given your experience in allthose settings, and I think it's
it's it's quite nice that thatthese examples are now exemplars
of excellence rather than theoutliers anymore, that a lot
more public and privateinstitutions are looking to you
and the and the universe ofinstitutions that you're
(22:04):
associated with on how to betterdesign.
What sets UMGC apart in yourmind from some of those other
institutions?
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Well, I certainly think the intentionality, and I
think that as you had said aminute ago, more and more
institutions are having to movebeyond that sort of black box of
education as it has been knownfor a long time, where we simply
say people just trust us, weknow what we're doing.
And now, and as we can see, andin many cases, people are saying
we don't just trust you.
We want to actually evidence andoutcomes that demonstrate this
(22:33):
type of thing.
So one of the things we try todo very much so is make sure
that on a number of differentways, we are operating with
intentionality.
What does that mean?
That we are purposely bringingin businesses to talk to us
about the skills that we aretrying to put into our
assessments, into our learningexperiences.
We're purposely designing withan understanding of here's how
learning actually happens, asopposed to some of the ways that
(22:55):
we have traditionally thoughtabout it.
We are purposely bringingstudents into that conversation
to design and help us understandfrom a user experience
perspective what's working andwhat's not.
And all of these things, beingable to say one of the examples
that I use a lot is when I go tothe gym, when I'm working with
my personal trainer, if I'mtrying to do X or Y, how do I
set a path that's going to getme there?
(23:16):
So yeah, you probably know thatat the beginning of every year,
there's the resolutionists, as Icall them, who show up at the
gym and have a presence thatthey want to actually move
things forward.
But they're gone at threemonths.
When I but what I look at is thepersonal trainer working with
them to say, how are you, whatare you trying to accomplish?
You're trying to run a marathon,you're trying to bench press
320.
Let us create a plan and let meshow you how that plan is going
(23:37):
to get you there.
That's the kind of thing thatwe're trying to do with learning
as well.
How do we lay out a plan thatsays, when you're going to be
able to do this tomorrow thatyou can't do today?
Because here are the thingswe're going to do as a result.
SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
What are some of the things that you can see
happening now that you couldn'tsee, say, three years ago with
the explosion of AI?
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Certainly, again, I mentioned a minute ago the idea
of assessment, but I love thisidea of a personal assistant.
You know, this idea of you mayremember the old Disney movie uh
Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket.
I have this idea in my head of apersonal Jiminy Cricket for
every single person who's comingalong.
So, how do we create that typeof environment?
(24:19):
Is one of the big things thatwe're talking about.
You see AI as a remedial toolthat can help you.
You may remember that wholeconversation years ago about the
flipped classroom.
In a lot of ways, having apersonal experience or personal
assistant who can work you, workwith you through those types of
things allows for us to leveragethe classroom time or the
assessment time more effectivelyand hopefully guarantee better
(24:42):
that you are able to do thethings that we are talking about
as you are moving forward.
So I see AI helping, at leastright now, augment our
abilities.
Some of our colleagues often saythe age should actually stand
more for augmented intelligencerather than artificial
intelligence because a lot of itis it will help the skill sets
of our instructors, of ourfaculty members, and also of the
advisors and others to figureout how to personalize this
(25:05):
experience.
For a long time, this was aconversation about
customization.
And customization just doesn'tscale, but personalization is
something that can scale if wehave the right tools and
information in there.
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Yeah, I agree.
I just think about the work Idid leading into this podcast
and this podcast in and ofitself, leveraging AI in all
sorts of different forms that Idon't even notice anymore.
But they're augmenting myskills, whether it be using
grammarly to look through myscript to see if there's any
grammar errors, or at the end ofthis, the software that I'm
(25:39):
using to edit this podcast willcreate text out of our entire
conversation and makesuggestions and think about
different ways of editing thepodcast itself.
So it really is, as you said, itaugments, it doesn't replace me,
not yet, at least.
Perhaps someday, but not quiteyet.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
But but to your point, one of the things we are
talking about to your uh to whatyou're saying there is imagine a
world where in that personalassistance abilities, you you
have various ways that you canengage with the learning
resource.
And the assignment may be readthese 50 pages.
And the personal assistant isable to say, I know you have a
short attention span, or I knowyou go more comfortable with a
(26:19):
different type of modality.
So can I translate that into apodcast?
Can I translate that into avideo?
Would you prefer for that to bein your native language?
You prefer, I mean, all thevarious ways that you can take
material and re-reimagine it issomething that we should be
looking at.
And again, it doesn't mean thatyou don't have to gain the
skills, but the way you go aboutdoing that will be a very a bit
(26:41):
different.
You you probably heard mywonderful karate kid metaphor,
where I said a number of timesthat, you know, Daniel LaRusso
still has to learn karate, buthe's not gonna do so on a
traditional dojo.
And he's not gonna, but but hehas an instructor who knows how
to teach him.
He has the resources that heneeds.
And at the end of the day, he'sstill got to pass the
assessment.
He's got to participate in thetournament.
(27:01):
And he can't get around that.
But he may acquire those skillsin a way that's much more
comfortable to him.
So imagine if everybody hadtheir own Mr.
Miyagi who could teach you waxon, XOF, and all the things that
you can do.
Exactly right.
So this is how I think DI canhelp us if we spend our time
thinking about theopportunities.
Clearly, there are somechallenges, but that's always
(27:22):
going to be true for anytechnology.
But at the same time, I thinkwe've got to be able to leverage
these things to help morelearners succeed, particularly
in places where they might nothave other opportunities.
And that's what UMGC reallybelieves.
It's like you've got to be in ajungle in the middle of Korea.
We can still figure out a way tohelp you gain those learning
experiences.
If you've only got four weeksbecause the submarine is only
(27:43):
going to be import for thatlong, then we're going to make
sure we can craft something foryou.
If you are in Guam and we aredoing a course in Okinawa, can
we live stream it to you?
I think the more we're thinkingabout the various ways we can
create opportunity for learners,the better off we're going to
be.
And I think that is something wehave done for the last 77 years
(28:04):
or so in a way that no one elsereally does.
I do love my colleagues in theplaces I've been before, but to
this point, when I say globalcampus, you know, my previous
title is president of globalcampus at SNA2.
Right.
But we weren't thinking of,okay, what's happening in
Bahrain?
A couple of weeks ago, we had toevacuate all of our people out
of the Middle East right beforethe U.S.
bombed a ramp.
They gave us a, we have noticethat says you probably should
(28:26):
move your people out.
So all of a sudden it becomes inBahrain, in Jordan, in the UAE,
Saudi Arabia.
How do we rapidly move peopleout and also still take care of
the students who are still thereon those bases?
So these are places and waysthat we are constantly trying to
think about.
We still got to get this done.
We've just got to be able tothink outside of the box to get
it done.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
Well, there you go.
That's truly a global campus.
Let me ask you something sort ofcontemporary.
All of us in sort of the highered world these days have been
dealing with a lot of differentstressors, a lot of changes, a
lot of, you know, whether it beexecutive orders coming that we
people have to decipher andunderstand what this means to my
(29:09):
institution or my learner,changes that the reconciliation
bill has put into motion, thechanges at the Department of
Education, you know, who do youtalk to?
What does this mean to myinstitution?
How are you and your leadershipteam dealing with all of the
motion and uncertainty that hasgripped the higher education
(29:31):
marketplace over the last sixmonths?
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
So I will start with, I think it was Vincent
Churchill.
I may not be right about this,but that wonderful sticker that
you see a lot often that sayskeep calm and carry on is one of
the things that we we startwith.
First of all, let's make sure wehave an understanding of what's
being said as opposed to what isreality.
One of the things we've had tolearn very, very rapidly is to
(29:54):
make sure that we have the factsbefore we try to respond to
things.
You know, and given the theEnvironment that we're operating
in.
Everybody wants you to try tocomment on every single thing.
And we've tried to create anenvironment that says, here's
what we know, here's what we areworking on, and we'll try to be
as transparent about thesethings as possible.
So I think creating a culture,we often talk about the only
(30:16):
constant is change, but changeis happening in so many
different ways right now.
So how do you create a culturethat can actually function in a
reasonable way has been one ofthe big things that we're
talking about.
Because today it could be oneitem, tomorrow it could be a
different item.
And some of these things areabsolutely positive for us.
You mentioned a little whileago, the idea of workforce pill
(30:36):
is something that we are strongadvocates for.
We we absolutely believe that'ssomething that then it becomes
so how does it roll out?
How do we leverage thoseopportunities?
And how do we continue to moveas we need to?
I think that's probably thebiggest single lesson of this,
which is one, you can't respondto everything and you shouldn't.
And two, how do you make sureyou create a culture in which
people can continue to see theNorth Star, let's the
(30:59):
opportunities that are in frontof them?
We've worked very hard at thatover the last period of time.
And certainly within the system,as you can imagine, again, 12
schools, different missions,different populations, we're
constantly trying to leverageeach other to say, okay, so what
does that mean for you?
In this case, this is a positivefor you.
That's a challenge for someoneelse.
This is an opportunity overhere.
(31:19):
So trying to make sure we keepour networks functioning in a
way that allows us to stay ontop of things.
But again, the big goal of allof this is to be deliberate and,
you know, responsive in a waythat calms the waters rather
than adds to the chaos.
SPEAKER_01 (31:35):
Well, the more you can be intentional about your
North Star, the more that youbecome an anchor for your
learners, for your faculty, foryour staff.
I think you're providingstability in a time where there
is a lot of uncertainty.
So I certainly commend you onthat approach.
SPEAKER_00 (31:53):
As I said, I taught our team, and I was looking at
some of the records here, and wewere located.
You know, we had a class that'sbeing held just under Mount
Penatuba when it exploded manyyears ago.
Like my team is like, you thinkyou think you got chaos?
Right.
Let's talk about let's talkabout what's happening in an
active battle zone.
You know, our faculty membersaround the world right now
(32:13):
literally are operating in someof these places where at 2
o'clock in the morning thesirens are going off for them to
go to the bonkers.
They are teaching classes.
I get regular reports from ourteam on here's how many times we
actually had to go to thebonkers here, so many times our
classes were interrupted.
Again, a couple of weeks agowhen things had really blown up,
I was getting pictures from theMiddle East of missiles flying
(32:33):
overhead and people saying,Well, what are we going to do
about these types of things?
So it's always been a situationof how do you operate in these
spaces?
And I tell my team the NorthStar continues to be our mission
is to serve our learners.
And we have done so under somevery challenging circumstances.
We will continue to function inthis way as we continue to move
forward.
(32:54):
And the more you point back tothe mission, and most of the
people who I engage here withhere are passionate about that
work of figuring out how to helplearners, the more it helps them
to focus in on what's reallyimportant.
And that is, are there ways thatwe can continue to do what we
came here to do in the firstplace?
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
Well, amen to that, Greg.
Let me ask you one finalquestion as we begin to wrap up.
Where would you like to see uhUMGC over the next five years?
What's what's on the frontierfor you and your team?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
So I mentioned a little bit earlier this whole
idea of what does the learningexperience look like as we
continue to move into thefuture.
You know, five years from now,what I really like us to be even
better at is finding all thosevarious ways that people have
acquired skills and ensuringthat they're able to have the
mobility that we're talkingabout by making sure as many of
(33:46):
those ways as possible havesucceeded in giving them the
credit they need to moveforward.
So I everything I think we'retalking about right now, the
nature of instruction, thenature of learning resources,
the nature of student supportwill change a lot as the
technology continues to moveforward.
I hope we can see those thingsas an opportunity and not a
threat, and to leverage thosethings to help even more people
(34:07):
succeed in all the places aroundthe country where right now we
don't necessarily always seethat.
One of the things that we spenda lot of time talking about are
the education deserts.
We talk a lot about the ruralareas of the country.
We talk a lot about the variouspopulations who haven't been
served as well as they couldbecause we couldn't reach them
in ways that actually beidentified with.
So these are all things that Ienvision UMGC leveraging the
(34:28):
next generation of itsexperiences to figure out new
ways to do that.
Sometimes right here in theUnited States as well as in the
places overseas that we'veworked on so much.
So the better we can do that,the better off we're gonna be.
But one other thing I'll add tothat is I also see us partnering
more with organizations andother universities to try to
make sure that we all arehelping more students.
(34:51):
You know, I'm a member of thePresident's Forum, which you
know well.
And one of the things we'veoften said is that all of our
schools together, doing all thegreat work that we're doing,
still serve less than 1% of theentire student population that
needs to be served.
There's lots of work that we canall do to make sure that more
learners succeed, even as we'retrying to make sure we
differentiate ourselves and putout their opportunities for
(35:11):
different learners.
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
I think that's a a great opportunity for a group of
institutions to really show theway forward, particularly with
this group of learners.
And it's a way to recapture theconfidence of learners.
Yes.
You know, making sure that theysee the value in what they're
investing in, that they'reseeing the economic return, that
(35:33):
they're seeing their learningactually show up in their career
choices.
So Greg, I really appreciate thework that you and your team are
doing.
If our listeners want to learnmore about UMGC, where should we
point them to to get moreinformation?
SPEAKER_00 (35:50):
Certainly the umgc.edu site is out there doing
a good job of trying to tell ourstory.
We're putting more and moreinformation out there on YouTube
about the various types ofthings because as you can
imagine, but in fact, just thislast week we had our first TEDx
that we hosted in Okinawa.
And so trying to figure out moreand more ways to provide those.
So umgc.edu, and from there youcan see all the various ways
(36:11):
wherever you are in the countrythat we are trying to engage you
wherever you are.
SPEAKER_01 (36:16):
All right.
Well, Greg, listen, thank youfor taking the time to be on the
Rant Podcast.
I appreciate your leadership andappreciate what you and your
team are doing at UMGC.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
Thank you.
I continue doing this kind ofwork because as always, we we
need more and more people tryingto tell that story.
Thank you, Eloy.
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
All right.
Well, thank you.
And thanks everybody for joiningus here on the Rant Podcast.
You've been listening to myconversation with Dr.
Greg Fowler, president of theUniversity of Maryland Global
Campus, UMGC.
Please continue to follow us.
Hit subscribe if you'refollowing us here on this
YouTube channel.
And if you're listening to us onyour favorite podcast platform,
(36:54):
continue to follow us, downloadevery episode, and we will be
back to you soon with more greatcontent.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you
soon.
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