May 20, 2025 • 39 mins
Russell Marsan, a distinguished expert from IPX 1031, shares the intricacies and significant advantages of 1031 exchanges, which facilitate the deferral of capital gains taxes on real estate transactions. He emphasizes the common misconception that only properties of the same type can be exchanged, clarifying that any property utilized for investment or business purposes qualifies as like-kind. This episode serves as a critical resource for real estate professionals, particularly those engaged with baby boomer clients, who may be underutilizing their real estate assets. Russell advocates for proactive engagement with these clients to help them recognize the potential benefits of their holdings and the opportunities afforded by 1031 exchanges. With nearly three decades of experience, he provides invaluable insights that can significantly enhance an agent’s ability to assist clients in navigating the complexities of real estate investment.
Marsan begins by addressing a prevalent fallacy regarding the 'like-kind' requirement of 1031 exchanges, clarifying that the true essence of 'like-kind' pertains to the investment or business nature of the properties involved, rather than their physical characteristics. This pivotal clarification empowers realtors and investors to explore a wider array of investment opportunities, thereby enhancing their financial portfolios. Marsan encourages real estate professionals to engage with potential clients who may own underutilized properties, such as raw land, which could be transformed into lucrative investments through the strategic application of 1031 exchanges. The conversation further delves into the demographic trends influencing real estate transactions, particularly the significant role of baby boomers in the current market landscape. Marsan's assertion that this demographic holds a substantial portion of real estate assets underscores the urgent need for targeted outreach and education to facilitate their transition into more suitable investment vehicles.
Takeaways:
- The 1031 exchange allows investors to defer taxes by swapping investment properties, enhancing their financial strategies significantly.
- A common misconception about the 1031 exchange is the belief that only similar property types can be exchanged, when in fact, any investment property can qualify.
- Educating realtors about the benefits of 1031 exchanges can help them gain new clients and offer valuable advice to property owners.
- Baby boomers hold a significant amount of real estate and are increasingly looking to reposition their assets to align with their retirement goals.
- Time constraints are crucial in 1031 exchanges; investors have only 45 days to identify new properties after selling, which can lead to failed exchanges if not properly managed.
- Utilizing 1031 exchanges effectively can dramatically transform an investor's financial landscape, shifting stagnant assets into productive income-generating properties.
Links referenced in this episode:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And it's a real opportunityfor especially realtors, Right. To
solicit people that own rawland and to let them know. Because
most people, especially ifit's, you know, if it's under, you
know, 50 acres, right. It's 5acres, 10 acres. Right. It's a building
lot for them. They don't. Theyhave no income coming off of it.
(00:20):
They. They either inherited itor they bought it. And they own it
all cash, Right. They have nomortgage on it, so they're not going
to sell it. It's not on theirradar to sell. But nobody's approached
them and said, hey, you know,you got at that land is worth $300,000.
That's $300,000 of stagnantequity. Right. Producing zero cash
(00:41):
flow for you and zerodepreciation. You can sell that and
I can buy your first, youknow, investment property for you,
like a rental.
You're listening to the RealEstate Sessions and I'm your host,
Bill risser. With nearly 25years in the real estate business,
I love to leaders, up andcomers, and really anyone with a
story to tell. It's thestories that led my guests to a career
(01:04):
in the real estate world thatdrives me in my 10th year and over
400 episodes of the podcast.And now I hope you enjoy the next
journey. Hi, everybody.Welcome to episode 418 of the Real
Estate Sessions podcast. Asalways, thank you so much for tuning
in. Thank you so much fortelling a friend. Today we're going
(01:24):
to talk tax code. I have neverdone this on the podcast and I can't
tell you how excited I am. Wehave an expert in the world of 1031
exchanges. His name is RussellMarsan out of Northern California.
We're going to talk about thata little bit. But he really has some
great ideas, some greatstrategies, and just a ton of knowledge
(01:45):
on what's happening in that1031 exchange world. I love that
we've talked about some of themisconceptions because there are
investors out there who arethrowing away money by not listening
to Russell. So let's get thisthing started. Russell, welcome to
the podcast.
It's a pleasure to be here,Bill. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, you know, I always. Ilove it when I get referrals for
(02:06):
guests to come to the podcast.Cause I'm always kind of looking
for people. But. But MattHidalgo, who I've known for a long
time, you've probably known longer.
Yeah. Little while. Yep.
Yeah. Suggested that I chatwith you when we talk about 1031
and I think I've never donethat. I've never had a conversation
about that topic. Which issuper important really, when it comes
(02:27):
to wealth building andstrategy and all kinds of stuff that
we sort of.
Not.
We sort of don't pay attentionto, I think enough. So I'm really
happy to have you here.
Yeah, it's great to be here.
All right, so we're. You're inNorthern California. Are you kind
of like in the Sacramentoarea? Is that. Am I. Am I good with
that? Like Roseville, all thatstuff where there's a lot of people
(02:48):
that I work with that are kindof living in that area with the company?
Yeah, absolutely. I. I live inNorthern California, north of Sacramento,
kind of halfway betweenSacramento and Chico and a smaller
farm farming community calledYuba City. Wow. I travel through
extensively, like for my job.I'm always on the road traveling.
So, you know, that's not wheremy office is located, but that's,
(03:09):
you know, that's where I live.
Okay. And then I'm just goingto assume, you know, you're a native
to Northern Californian. Itseems like a lot of people.
That are born there. Yeah,absolutely. Yep. Got my California
Born and Raised tattoo.
And so now I gotta ask thetough questions. Does that mean like
Giants, you know, Niners,Warriors? Is that all that stuff
(03:31):
on your side? Kind of, yeah.
I mean, so it is definitely.In order of. It would be Niners,
then Giants, then probably theKings. Although I love the warriors
too.
Now how the Kings jump inthere? Where does that. Oh, A. Sacramento.
I'm sorry. Oh, that's evencloser. My first thought went to
hockey. No worries. Yeah. Allright, so that makes sense. And then
(03:55):
don't you have the Oakland Aceplaying with you? Like you get a
whole couple seasons.
Of the Oakland A's playing in Sacramento.
I can't even imagine whatthat's like. I can't imagine. I'm
in St. Petersburg. Right. Sothe Ray's Stadium roof got blown
off by Milton and so they'replaying at an 11,000 seat spring
(04:16):
training facility that theYankees, you know, use all the time.
So they're in the same boat,but they're also the two teams. So
they're the lowest inattendance the last probably 10 years.
So it kind of works out.
It's a great little stadium,River Cat Stadium. It's. It's an
excellent little stadium. Asmall venue and stuff. So easy to
get in and out of too. So it'dbe nice to catch a ball game there.
Yeah. Do you River Cats areaffiliated with who?
(04:40):
River Cats were. Wereaffiliated originally with the A's.
I think they're now affiliatedwith the. The Giants.
Okay. So stayed up keepingthat area good?
Yeah.
All right, cool.
So when.
I said when you talk. When youtalk Niners, you live there your
whole life. I just have to. Ilike sports a lot and I. I imagine
the 80s were just like anunbelievable time to be a Niners
(05:01):
fan. Is that. And into the 90sas well, because you had young that
took over and had to be just ablast. Yeah. I grew up in San Diego,
Russell. So you know what thatmeans. I mean, I'm sorry.
Condolences.
Exactly. Never experienced achampionship of any kind. Unless
you count the indoor soccerleague. The Soccers. That was their
name. Yeah.
Ranks right up there.
(05:22):
Yeah. Nine. Nine championshipsin like 10 years.
Indoor soccer. Really close.
All right, I guess we're donetalking sports.
Well, the hope. Hope is therefor you, though, because now you
have a EX 49er coach, so youshould have.
True. But they're in LAthough, so.
Oh, well, if you're still afan. Right?
(05:42):
Not a fan. I. I'm not a fan.If they left the city, this Clippers
left, boom. We were done withthem. Now the Chargers have left.
We're stuck. Not stuck. Westill have the Padres, who have a
great ownership. They're.They're. They have a chance. They
have a shot. You no longerhave Bochi. So good. That means.
Because he's the guy that winsall the World Series. He won him
with the Rangers, you know,last year. Right. So. Yeah, it's
(06:03):
just great. I. I love. I loveNorthern California sports. I love
going up there. I've. My wifeand I have made many trips up there
just to really. Just to watchgames. Super cool.
So are you saying that SanDiego has a chance in that division?
Yeah, I am going to say theyhave a chance for making the playoffs.
I don't know.
I don't know if they're gonnafeel like I'm listening to Dumb and
Dumber. Right. So you'resaying there's a chance.
(06:25):
Yeah. Well, look, you know,you got Fernando Tatis. You got some
great pitching. You've gotMachado. I like. There's Merrill.
Jackson. Jackson, Merrill.Yeah, I'm just. It's. Look, it's
just what I do. I am. I'm veryoptimistic, so.
I'm a Giants fan. I am too.But it's just. It's tough to look
at that Dodger lineup.
I know, it's rude. That's whyyou get that you Got to go wild card.
(06:47):
You know, you have beenassociated with IPX 1031 and maybe
a couple of other operationsthrough your career. But we're talking
about nearly three decades ora little over three decades that
you focused on this, this onepiece of the, the IRS code that is
really important. Right, for alot of different people. So my first
(07:10):
question is, how do you getfrom. You're coming out of school,
how do you end up, you know,at that early into this part of the
game? Because it always seemsto me like people got there a little
bit later, maybe a second orthird, you know, piece of the puzzle,
kind of their career arc.
Well, it definitely was that Ididn't come out of school. I mean,
yeah, I've been in this 29years, but I went in the service
(07:33):
after school for severalyears, came back out and I actually
sold real estate first andthen transitioned to Fidelity Title
as a. I was. Well, I wasactually a sales rep and title for
another smaller brand. Andthen Fidelity recruited me to be
a sales manager for them. Andthen it was IPX 29 years ago that
(07:55):
recruited me to come over andcover at that point, Northern California
for them. Okay, so, yeah,yeah. So it wasn't just at straight
out of school.
How would you compare the twojobs you left, you know, this, the
title side of businessdevelopment and went to the, this
a very specific situation with1031. How do you compare the two?
(08:15):
Was there, are there bigdifferences or is it kind of the
same?
No big differences for sure.So, you know, I really enjoyed the
title side. I was actually atthat point because I had gone from
a sales rep with a smallertitle company to a sales manager.
And I was managing just twosales. Managing the salesforce, just
two small counties in NorthernCalifornia. And I was, after a couple
(08:36):
years, we were doing reallywell. We'd expanded market share
substantially and I was justlooking to kind of expand. So I was
engaging with a couple of thecounty managers who didn't have,
who were close by, that didn'thave a. A sales manager. And I was
kind of trying to get throughthe bureaucracy of seeing how that
would work with everybody. Andalong the same, about the same time,
IPX approached me and theywere looking to expand in Northern
(08:58):
California. And they said,hey, we want you to take on like
29 counties in northernCalifornia. And my passion throughout
all of my life, one of mygreatest passions has always been
public speaking. I love it.And I've competed on national levels
in both humorous andmotivational speaking. So, you know,
this job this job is moreeducational. Like sales on the 1031
(09:19):
side is going out and givingone to three hour classes in a lot
of cases for accredited foraccreditation to realtors, commercial
brokers, CPAs, attorneys,things like that. Right. On how to
use the 1031 exchange to, youknow, better assist their clients,
but also how to, in the realestate world, how to capture more
clients. So for me it just,you know, it allowed me to do what
(09:44):
I love. Right. Go out thereand do public speaking every day
with the clients. And so it'sa lot different. It's a different
sales, definitely a differentsales tactic than it is on the title
side for sure. Yeah.
Still relationship buildinggoing on, but it's in a different
level. Yeah, but a littledifferent. You're not, you know,
following people around onthe, on the title side. You know,
(10:07):
those relationships have tostay strong. You got to continue
those kinds of things. Maybeit's not the same when you're talking
about doing those, you know,accredited sessions kind of on a
regular basis. You want tostay connected to those people, but
it's not that same level. Doesthat make sense?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It'sjust a little different. Right. Because
so I deal in internal revenuecode. And so, you know, agents and
(10:28):
the clients themselves,they're not familiar with, you know,
what you can and can't do. Andso, you know, it's my in depth knowledge
of taxation. Right. Realestate tax law, internal revenue
code, tax, all of that stuff,everything having to do with real
estate. And so, you know, I'm,I'm that resource for them that they
can pull in to make themselveslook good. Right. Because I'm, I
(10:48):
have all the answers that, thequestion that they're, that their
clients need because theycan't speak to it because it's outside
the scope of their licensing.Right, right. Yeah. Right. So, so
yeah, it's, it's aneducational sales play.
Gotcha. You mentioned it justa second ago that the type of people
that you work with, it's notjust for the most part when we're
on the title side, we'reworking with, you know, realtors
(11:09):
and lenders. Pretty muchthat's going to be the sum total.
But you were talking aboutcommercial brokers, investors, financial
planners, attorneys, all thesedifferent groups that you're connected
to. Percent I don't want tomake you have to give me exact numbers.
But maybe could you break outlike what percentage of the work
you're doing is residentialversus commercial or you know, attorney
(11:31):
versus, you know, realtor,that kind of Thing.
Yeah, all of them definitelydifferent for sure. Right. So I'd
say that just because of sheervolume, there's always going to be
more residential transactions.Right. Because there's more single
family rental properties, rawland, there's, you know, multi family,
one to four, that kind ofstuff. There's more just in sheer
(11:52):
volume than there is in thecommercial. Right. So there are more
residential transactions thanthere are commercial. Although, you
know, we certainly target thecommercial for sure, because those
are the larger deals. So ifyou're dealing with, you know, you
know, a higher volume in, youknow, the value of the, the real
estate, then the commercial iscertainly, you know, great. But the
(12:14):
volume on just the sheertransaction numbers is definitely
on the residential side. Andfrom a standpoint of referral sources,
like who's the mostinteraction I probably have is on
the residential side also,just same thing, because they're
the ones that are, I wouldsay, most hungry for the information.
And I show that I specializein showing, you know, realtors how
(12:38):
to capture more listings.Right. Using the 1031 exchange. Because
a lot of Realtors areintimidated by soliciting investors
because they have this mindsetof, well, gosh, because they're an
investor, they know more thanI do. The reality is they don't.
Right. So, and thensecondarily, probably commercial
brokers, I deal with them alot and then to a little lesser expense
(12:59):
extent, although just asimportant is I do teach accredited
courses for CPAs and attorneysas well.
Okay. So I know a little bitabout 1031 exchanges just because
I ran a branch for 10 yearsand we had them. You know, there's
qualified intermediaries,there's, it's really important timelines,
like, like critical timelinesthat can blow up a deal. Might have
(13:20):
happened once or twice. Butcan you. First of all, I, I'd love
to ask you this question. Whatare some of the biggest misconceptions
about 1031 exchange? Doessomebody come to you and go, yeah,
I've heard I can do thisbecause it's going to do that. And
you're like, no, that's notreally the case. Like something that's
common, Is it, is it, is itout there?
Oh, absolutely. There's one,the, the most glaring one that I
(13:42):
have seen for throughout the29 years I've been doing this is
the misconception of like,kind. Right? That is huge. Right.
Because in a 1031 exchange,you can sell a piece of real estate
and buy a piece of real estateand defer all the tax. Right. That's
the big benefit of 1031. Butthe key is that both properties involved
(14:05):
in the exchange, the oneyou're selling and buying, they both
have to be like kind with oneanother. Right. And so most people
like myself are visual. So,you know, you think, okay, well,
if I'm selling raw land, Ihave to buy raw land. If I'm selling
a single family, I have to buya single family commercial for commercial,
commercial, etc. And it's notthe case. It's not what a property
(14:25):
looks like that makes it likekind. It's how it's treated for tax
purposes. Right. Any propertythat's treated for business or investment
purposes is like kind. So youcan sell raw land and you can buy
single family rental property,commercial industrial, mini storage.
Right. It's all like kind,it's all interchangeable. And that's
(14:46):
kind of one of the greatestbeauties of 1031. And why 1031 is
such a powerful wealthbuilding tool. Because, you know,
as, as an investors, as theygrow older in life, their financial
objectives naturally change,Right. They pivot from appreciation
to cash flow to maybe goingpassive. Right. Well, you know, all
the different types of realestate have different types of financial
(15:07):
objectives. So as yourobjectives change, the 1031 allows
you to pivot, right, to thatdifferent type of like kind real
estate that better suits yourcurrent financial objectives. I can't
count the number of times overmy 29 years that I've had tax and
legal advisors tell myclients, you can't exchange raw land
for improved property. It'snot like kind that's 100% false.
(15:29):
It's never been true.
It's so weird because youthink about it, that's the, they're
missing it on the side of, Idon't want to mess up around with
the government or the IRSbecause they're saying like kind,
so it's got to be the same. Sothey're, they're, they're, there's
something weirdly positiveabout that. But then you get to be
a hero and go, let me tell yousomething, it's just how they're
(15:49):
treated. And that's differentthan like you said. So I think that's,
that's kind of cool. I mean,you do you come out of this going,
oh my God, you really knowwhere we're at and how we're going
to make this happen.
Yeah. And it's a realopportunity for especially realtors,
Right. To solicit people thatown raw land and to let them know.
(16:10):
Because most people,especially if it's, you know, if
it's under, you know, 50acres, right. It's 5 acres, 10 acres.
Right.
It's a building lot for them.They don't. They have no income coming
off of it. They, they eitherinherited it or they bought it and
they own it all cash. Right.They have no mortgage on it, so they're
not going to sell it. It's noton their radar to sell, but nobody's
(16:31):
approached them and said, hey,you know, you got at that land is
worse, $300,000. That's$300,000 of stagnant equity. Right.
Producing zero cash flow foryou and zero depreciation. You can
sell that and I can buy yourfirst, you know, investment property
for you, like a rental. Right.Now you have income, now you have
depreciation. Right. You, youreally dramatically change somebody's
(16:54):
financial, you know, outlook.Right. Just by being. You can, you
can change somebody's life by20, 30, $40,000 a year by simply
dropping that seed. Right.People would be willing to do it
if they simply knew the optionexists out there.
Right. I can see you talkingto a room full of a hundred realtors
and just little headexplosions everywhere when you say
(17:16):
that. If they were all memes.
That's why I wear hazmat suitsin my presentation. So. Yeah. Yeah.
You're kidding me.
Yeah.
That's awesome. Just, justfor, for the, the primary listeners,
this are residential realtors.So can, can you. Do you mind walking
(17:36):
us through what a typical goodold fashioned 1031 exchange looks
like when they're just goingto help an investor move from one
type of property to another?What does it look like? What's the
process?
Yeah, the process isrelatively simple. A lot of people
think it's very complicated,and it's actually not. So we can't
set up an exchange forsomebody until they've accepted an
(18:00):
offer on the property they'reselling. We call that the relinquished
property. Right. So oncethey've accepted an offer from a
buyer on the relinquishedproperty they're selling and they've
opened escrow. Right. Then wehave to set up the exchange. We have
to set it up sometime beforeclosing. It only takes us like a
day to set up the exchange.It's a super good process. So they're.
If they're not in Estro yet,we can't actually set up the exchange.
(18:23):
Although I should certainly betalking to them well in advance of
being an escrow. Right.Because the sooner I talk to them,
the better. I don't care ifthey're Selling four years from now.
Right. I want them to go intothe transaction completely stress
free and understanding whattheir priorities and objectives are.
Right, yeah. But then oncethey are in escrow, then we get a
copy of the purchase agreementfully executed by buyer and seller
(18:46):
and then we also need a copyof the title commitment. Right. Once
we have those two things, thenwe assign into the closing with the
title company as the seller onbehalf of the exchanger. Right. So
that's going to give the titlecompany instructions to wire those
funds to us upon closingbecause they can't go directly to
(19:07):
the exchanger because if theyhave any kind of control of funds,
they have a failed exchange.And then what we do is we create
a segregated commercial bankaccount we name the clients on also.
And those funds just sit therestatic in that exchange account waiting
for them to close on whateverthey're going to buy. And like you
stated, you know, they have 45days to identify and 180 days to
(19:28):
close. So once they're incontract on that replacement property,
then we're going to assigninto that Right. As the buyer on
their behalf and that's goingto give that title company instructions
to receive those funds from usto close the transaction. So we put
all of the exchange agreementsand assignments in place, we do all
the wiring throughout theentire process.
(19:49):
And it's relativelyinexpensive. I think people would
think it's a little more likewow, that's a lot of work and you're
working into two escrows. Butgenerally, isn't it, it's a flat
fee for most transactions,especially on the residential side.
Yeah, it is. It's a flat feestructure with us, although kind
of there is kind of regionalpricing. So it kind of varies. Most
(20:09):
of my regions we charge like athousand dollars. When you close
escrow on the relinquishedproperty, it just comes out of the
proceeds at closing and thenthere's a $250 fee charged when the
replacement property closes.So in most cases if they sell one
and buy $1,250 a total cost,that's it.
You know, you've been in thebusiness a long time and, and I mentioned,
(20:30):
I, I've seen things kind of gosouth after an exchange has been
opened. And generally speakingit's someone's doing something they
were probably told not to door they're going to do something
they're going to do somethingthey were told not to do. For you,
is there, is there over theyears, has there been something,
once again, something commonlike this is you, you can tell this
(20:52):
one's not going to go all theway through because of this.
Procrastination.
Oh, missing the timeline. Itsounds like number one killer.
Yeah, so. Because once therelinquished property has closed.
Right. Okay. Your clock hasstarted. You've got 45 calendar days,
not business days to identify.And you've got a total of 180 days
(21:16):
to close. 180 days is rarely aproblem. The 45 day identification
deadline is the number onekiller of 1031s. Because of procrastination
or somebody just says, youknow what? I don't want to write
a contingent offer, so I'mgoing to wait until my relinquished
property actually closes andfunds before I start writing offers.
(21:38):
Okay, you can do that if youwant to, but it's a bad strategy,
right? It's a little extrawork. If you write contingent offers.
Yeah. Maybe you're going tolose out on some and you'll have
to write twice as manycontracts as you would otherwise.
But you know what? Get intocontract on a replacement property
before day zero before therelinquished property closes. In
a perfect world, you shouldshoot for trying to complete your
(22:00):
Exchange before day 45 ever passes.
Yeah.
The reason, the reason why Isaid is because you know prior to
Midnight on day 45, you canchange your identification all you
want. You can add and revoketo your heart's content. But as soon
as midnight Strikes on day 45,you can only close on something you've
identified. So if you've namedthree properties and you've gone
(22:22):
past day 45 and you can forwhatever reason no longer buy any
one of those properties, itdoesn't matter what's happened or
whose fault it is. Yourexchange fails. You can't substitute
new properties after day 45.That's when it gets risky, is after
day 45.
Yeah.
So. Wow. You know thatwaiting, that procrastination to
(22:42):
get into contract and get pastyour inspections and contingencies
is the number one killer of exchanges.
I would assume that somepeople maybe look at that code too
literally and say, well Ican't, I can't start identifying
until after it closes. Butyou're saying, why are. You should
start identifying right now.Right. You gotta deal, you gotta.
You. You're an escrow. Startidentifying. Let's go find something.
(23:05):
Yeah, that makes sense.
You're a hundred percentcorrect. I have those conversations
with every single one of myclients and I wanna say probably
close to half of them say, ohmy gosh, I didn't know I could write
an offer first.
Gotcha. Yeah. That's awesome.Yeah, Good to know. That's great.
I have to ask you thisquestion, you know, over my time,
you know, with the FNF family.So it's been 25 years, right. I started
in 2000. And, and, and thereevery now and then, somebody starts
(23:30):
talking about changing the,the, the, the revenue code and the
1031 might be going away.You've. I'm sure you've been through
that a few times. Where are wenow with that? And how did you handle
that when that was, thatconversation was out there?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Yeah.
In my 30, 29 years of doingthis, dealt with it many, many, many,
(23:50):
many times. Every handful ofyears, I think this is the best way
to describe it. Every handfulof years, a politician stumbles upon
section 1031, right? And theyhave, you know, they see this section
1031 and they're not familiarwith. They're like, wait a minute,
there's $10 billion orwhatever the number is that's deferred
every year. If we simply getaway with this provision that I've
(24:12):
never heard of before, thenwe'll have $10 billion to spend on
what I want to spend on in mybill, right? And so they propose
it. Well, you know, we're partof the Real Estate Roundtable. You
know, it's everybody, it'snar, it's us, ccim, naop, everybody,
right? We spend a lot of moneyevery year with firms like Ernst
and Young doing economicimpact studies. This is real information
(24:35):
on the economy, right? On. Onwhat Section 1031 actually does for
the economy. And the realityis section 1031 is not a net loss
to the treasury. It's a netgain to the treasury in the billions
of dollars. Because there aretransactions, a lot of transactions
that happen that otherwisewould not happen, right? There's
(24:58):
real estate transactions.Because, you know, if I'm going to.
I want to sell my $5 millioninvestment property, right? I fully
depreciated, right? If I justsell it and pay my tax, I'm going
to get killed. It makes nosense for me to sell it, right? But
if I have this 1031, okay,well, I can sell it and defer the
tax. What I'm going to do is Ihave to reinvest in other real estate.
(25:19):
Every time you sell and buy,there's all kinds of things that
are happening, right? There'scons, there's all of the vendors
involved with the sale, titlecompanies, appraisers, banks, you
know, etc Contractors doingimprovements. A lot of different
things happen. Right. That'swhy real estate is such a big part
of the economy. It would, itwould create a lot less transactions
(25:41):
if 1031 was gone. Right. So wejust simply, every time, we simply
have to, you know, educatethe, the players on why Section 1031
is important to the economyand it would be harmful to the economy
if you eliminated it. Itwouldn't. It's not. They think it's
a pay for, and the reality isit's not a pay for. So that's why
we're always successful in noteliminating 1031.
(26:05):
Yeah. You know, the first. Asyou're saying that, the first thing
I think of is, like, not everyproperty that's being purchased through
that 1031 exchange is going to1031. That one, that one might be
paying taxes because thatperson needs the money and they just
can't do the deferment. So I,it makes sense that there's a lot
of transactions are turned onby this, by this process. It would
just go away.
(26:26):
Yeah. Because if you take awaythe incentive of 1031, the tax deferral,
then it becomes too punitiveto sell my property. So what I'm
going to do is I'm just goingto hold on to it for the rest of
my life and let my kids dealwith it after I die.
Right. What great strategy.Exactly. You talked about your, your,
(26:46):
your, your passion for publicspeaking, and you've done thousands
of these presentations. SoI've done maybe, maybe I got two,
A thousand of trainings andthings at the association level.
Kind of like, you know, youwere doing. But, but on a, on technology
and all this other stuff, andit was always residential. You have
these different audiences. Iwant to know because I'm just going
(27:07):
to flat out say this, Russell,tax code can be boring. So you agree,
right, with that comment.Okay, good, good. So how do you,
how do you keep an audienceengaged? I mean, you must have case
studies or you might, you gotto have some fun with it. Right.
It sounds like you have a lotof fun with it.
Oh, yeah. I mean, if you knewme personally, you would know. Right.
(27:28):
I'm. I'm a clown at heart.Right. I just, I truly believe in
making people laugh and smileno matter where I'm at. I'm, I'm
super serious, too, and I'm astudent of the business for sure.
But, you know, humor is soimportant in, just in life in general.
Right. Not just in business.And so, yeah, my presentations are
filled with humor. Alsomotivation. Right. So, so, yeah,
(27:52):
I mean, going to one of mypresentations, depending on who I'm,
who my audience is, like ifit's attorneys and CPAs, they're
a little more serious. So Isprinkle in some humor. But if it's
realtors, it's, it's like animprov. Right. As I hear, I'm a stand
up comedian in front of those guys.
Yeah.
So it just varies. And so,yeah, without fail not to sound,
(28:13):
you know, I don't want tosound vain or anything like that,
but I mean, but I always doget that in comments afterwards and
testimonials of like, wow,I've never been to a 1031 class.
That was so entertaining.
Yeah, that's great. I thinkthat's huge. I think that's a big
piece of, you know, I'm doingsome stuff right now with, you know,
in the FNF world we're dealingwith in here. Right. Our living here
and our start in here andtracking here and all that great
(28:33):
stuff. It's not superexciting, but yeah, the goal is if
I can get someone laughing inthe room and you know, just a quick
quip, it just makes it a wholedifferent experience. Right. And
I think that's so, I love.
That it's endearing, you know,for the clients, you as well. Right.
I think it's, in some waysit's a little selfish. I, because
(28:54):
I gain from it. Right. Ireally enjoy making people laugh.
It makes me feel good. Right.And so, I mean, so it's a win, win.
And they're not going toforget you. That's, that's key. That's
a key, key piece of that.
Russell.
There's, you know, we havemulti generations. There's used to
be the, the millennials werethe biggest group of home buyers.
I just heard earlier thisweek, it's now boomers. So that in
(29:19):
your world, in the 1031 world,which one's the most important? Where
are you seeing the mostactivity and who needs to be paying
more attention?
Yeah, definitely. So last yearthe exchange world was actually really
busy. You know, on, on theresidential side, I know a lot of
realtors saying, well, itwasn't a great year. And the 1031
side, the investor side, itwas a really good year. There was
(29:40):
a high, high amount of volume.This year we're considerably ahead
of last year, year to date,and we anticipate that trend to continue
throughout the year. Thedemographic that is mainly responsible
for that increase in volume isthe baby boomers. My people, our
People. Yes, they are. Theyare repositioning their real estate
(30:01):
assets throughout the phasesof retirement they're going through.
Right. To better suit theircurrent financial objectives. Only
about 20% of the population isbaby boomers, but over 40% of the
real estate is owned by thatdemographic in the United States.
And so for every baby boomerthat maybe is repositioning real
(30:23):
estate assets right now,there's probably four or five or
more that aren't. So many ofthem are not repositioning assets,
and they need to, you know, sofor those reps out there or realtors
out there listening to thispodcast, you really need to solicit
the baby boomers as ademographic, especially baby boomers
(30:44):
that own single family rentalproperties. Because if you're somebody
of retirement age and you ownsingle family rental properties,
you're in the wrong asset class.
Right.
I'm a financial analysis guy.That's my life. Like numbers and
tax law is my life, which Iknow sounds really sad. So, but,
(31:05):
but, you know, from afinancial analysis standpoint, they're
in the wrong asset class. Andjust to kind of build the scenario.
So this is a very typicalscenario where you have a retired
couple and they own sevensingle family rental properties,
free and clear. Super commonscenario. Well, when they bought
their first piece of realestate, they were in their 20s or
30s, because somebody said,buy real estate, it's a good investment.
(31:25):
So they bought a fixer. Right.After a couple years, they fixed
it up, had some sweat equityin the property, maybe a little positive
cash flow coming off it, andthey're like, hey, this is cool,
let's do it again. Andeventually they buy another one and
another one. Now they own 5,7, 10 single family rental properties,
all free and clear. They thishas always been a side hustle for
(31:46):
them, Right. Because they're aretired teacher, fireman, policeman,
something like that. Right?
Right.
They're not a real estateinvestor as from a standpoint of
it being their sole source of income.
Right.
It was passive to them.They're not into financial analysis.
They've made a lot of money ontheir real estate because over three
decades it's doubled ortripled in value, and now they own
(32:09):
it free and clear. So they'vebuilt wealth. Well, when they first
got into real estate, theybought single family because that's
affordable, right. Well, itjust so happens that was the perfect
asset class to buy into,because from a financial analysis
standpoint, single family, theprimary financial objective of that
in most of the United Statesis appreciation, not cash flow. So
(32:29):
they built the right. Theybought the right kind of asset to
appreciate. Right. Well, nowthey're of retirement age and they're
sitting on assets that are notdesigned for cash flow. Right. That's
not the primary objective ofsingle family. It's appreciation.
They're in the wrong assetclass. Right. They need to go, they
need to be in commercialbecause commercial is designed for
(32:49):
cash flow. But then they also,there's typically one other financial
analysis, financial objectiverather, that goes right along hand
in hand with somebody who'sretired. And that's passive. Right.
I want to maximize cash flowon the equity I have, but I also
want to go passive. I don'twant to deal with the headaches of
real estate. Right. Especiallyif you live in states like California,
which is a, not a landlordfriendly state at all. So you should
(33:14):
be going into triple netlease, commercial then. Right. But
that can be daunting, right.That there's, there's this thing
out there most people haven'theard of, called the dst, Delaware
Statutory Trust. Right. Whichis a type of replacement property
in a 1031 that's been aroundfor over 21 years. And when you buy
into a DST, you're buying afractional ownership interest in
(33:37):
a very large institutionalgrade asset. It's going to be like
an Amazon distribution centerfor $150 million or a huge climate
control mini storage or seniorcare facility, something like that.
Right. And you're just apassive owner in it. You just receive
cash flow every month withoutany duties, responsibilities or maintenance
costs. Right. It is literallypassive. So, you know, without creating
(34:00):
this podcast as being a class,there's just a lot of, there's a
lot of baby boomers out therethat are not repositioning right
now, and they should bebecause they don't know their options.
That's. That's awesome,Russell. That'd be some great content
to be spreading around forsure. Russell, I, I know that 1031
(34:21):
is a, is federal code, federallaw. Right. So does that mean it's.
The states don't really havemuch to do with it or how does that
play into the, to the. Howthis works?
Yeah, great question. So 1031is federal because it's part of the
Internal Revenue Code, but allstates recognize the 1031, right?
There was one state,Pennsylvania, that didn't, but then
(34:42):
two years ago they finallydid. So now all states recognize
the 1031. So you can buy andsell and cross every single state
line. So, you know, it's verycommon for people to decide, you
know, What? You know, I livein Montana, but, you know, I really.
It's getting too cold for us.We want to retire, so we want to,
you know, we want to buysomething in Scottsdale because,
(35:05):
you know, we want to retirethere because we love golf and we
love like 150 degrees in thesummer. I love driving with oven
mitts in my car, so. But yeah,there's different reasons why people
are in the tender. One allowsyou to do that, right. It allows
you to, to, you know, transferyour assets into other states without
having to pay federal or statetax. So it's huge if, if somebody's
(35:26):
going to be retiring inanother state or somebody's thinking
about buying a second home orvacation home in another state. The
1031's a tool for that.
Look, I'm looking at the clockand I know we both have. We're working
today, so I'm going to goahead and ask you the same question
I've asked every guest andthat is what one piece of advice
would you give a new agentjust getting started in the business?
(35:49):
Yes. So that's a really greatquestion. So I would say definitely,
you know, seek out your 1031guy, maybe even Russell, and do not,
do not leave investors out ofyour solicitations. Right. A lot
of people that just get intothe business, they're going to be.
They're going to do theircomfort zone. They're just going
(36:10):
to go after people that ownsingle family primary residences.
Right. Because there's thisintimidation factor that, oh, my
gosh, I'm new agent. I don'tknow as much as an investor does,
so I can't engage them. That's100% false. You know, there's this.
There's this area, I call itkind of like purgatory. In real estate
solicitations, the majority ofrealtors solicit owner occupied by
(36:33):
far. Right. And then you havethe very far end of the spectrum
of like commercial and ag andstuff like that, which are all solicited
by commercial brokers and agbrokers. But then you have this,
what I call the kind ofpurgatory in between. It is where
you have single family rentalproperties, multifamily 1 to 4, and
you have, you know, raw land,but small, not farms, not ranches.
(36:55):
Right. You know, 50 acres orless kind of thing. Those people
aren't solicited. Right?They're not. So nobody's telling
them what their options areand how to reposition to better,
you know, suit whatever theircurrent financial objectives are.
So if you're just getting intoreal estate. You know, definitely
solicit those investors, workwith somebody like myself and you
(37:17):
know, have even eveningclasses. You know, bring those people,
the investors into a class andeven like how to build wealth with
the 1031 exchange. There'stools like we have. I have tools.
I have postcards, flyers, allkinds of things that you can, that
they can use to go after thosetypes of clients. So I guess that'd
be my number one. You're goingto be soliciting possibly. You know,
(37:39):
you're not competing witheverybody else after. With. After
unoccupied. Right. And, and yeah.
And there's help. There's helpavailable. You're there. Right?
There's.
And then everyone at IPX 1031,there's going to be somebody in your
area that can push you alongand help you kind of learn the ropes.
That's great. I love that.That's a great piece of advice. So
Russell, if somebody wants toreach out to you, have another conversation
(38:01):
about this, what's the bestway for them to do that?
Yeah, so two ways. One is bycell phone. My cell phone. And this
is actually my cell phone. SoI'm going to give it to you. And
you can call me anytime, nomatter where I'm at in this country
because I travel all over. Butyou can. If you call me at like 8
o' clock on a Friday night,the first thing you don't have to
say is, Russell, I'm so sorryfor bugging you. I'm a financial
nerd. I'm a geek. I don't havea life. So you'd be giving me a life
(38:23):
by simply calling me andasking me questions. So cell Phone
number is 530-755-8355. Emailaddress. My first and last name.
So it's Russell. R U S s e l ldot Marsan M A R S A N@ipx1031.com
this has been great, Russell.
(38:44):
Thank you so much. I. I reallyknow. I. Now I gotta like give Matt
some props. I mean, this was afantastic episode. Really a lot of
good information, especiallyfor my audience. So I think this
has been fantastic. Thanks foryour time today. You know, the Niners
will be back one day. Youknow, it's just the flow.
Well, that's why God made wine.
(39:05):
And you're close to it. It'seven better. Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks
so much. This has been great.
My pleasure. Absolutely. My pleasure.
And it's a real opportunityfor especially realtors, Right. To
solicit people that own rawland and to let them know. Because
most people, especially ifit's, you know, if it's under, you
know, 50 acres, right. It's 5acres, 10 acres. Right. It's a building
lot for them. They don't. Theyhave no income coming off of it.
(00:20):
They. They either inherited itor they bought it. And they own it
all cash, Right. They have nomortgage on it, so they're not going
to sell it. It's not on theirradar to sell. But nobody's approached
them and said, hey, you know,you got at that land is worth $300,000.
That's $300,000 of stagnantequity. Right. Producing zero cash
(00:41):
flow for you and zerodepreciation. You can sell that and
I can buy your first, youknow, investment property for you,
like a rental.
You're listening to the RealEstate Sessions and I'm your host,
Bill risser. With nearly 25years in the real estate business,
I love to leaders, up andcomers, and really anyone with a
story to tell. It's thestories that led my guests to a career
(01:04):
in the real estate world thatdrives me in my 10th year and over
400 episodes of the podcast.And now I hope you enjoy the next
journey. Hi, everybody.Welcome to episode 418 of the Real
Estate Sessions podcast. Asalways, thank you so much for tuning
in. Thank you so much fortelling a friend. Today we're going
(01:24):
to talk tax code. I have neverdone this on the podcast and I can't
tell you how excited I am. Wehave an expert in the world of 1031
exchanges. His name is RussellMarsan out of Northern California.
We're going to talk about thata little bit. But he really has some
great ideas, some greatstrategies, and just a ton of knowledge
(01:45):
on what's happening in that1031 exchange world. I love that
we've talked about some of themisconceptions because there are
investors out there who arethrowing away money by not listening
to Russell. So let's get thisthing started. Russell, welcome to
the podcast.
It's a pleasure to be here,Bill. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, you know, I always. Ilove it when I get referrals for
(02:06):
guests to come to the podcast.Cause I'm always kind of looking
for people. But. But MattHidalgo, who I've known for a long
time, you've probably known longer.
Yeah. Little while. Yep.
Yeah. Suggested that I chatwith you when we talk about 1031
and I think I've never donethat. I've never had a conversation
about that topic. Which issuper important really, when it comes
(02:27):
to wealth building andstrategy and all kinds of stuff that
we sort of.
Not.
We sort of don't pay attentionto, I think enough. So I'm really
happy to have you here.
Yeah, it's great to be here.
All right, so we're. You're inNorthern California. Are you kind
of like in the Sacramentoarea? Is that. Am I. Am I good with
that? Like Roseville, all thatstuff where there's a lot of people
(02:48):
that I work with that are kindof living in that area with the company?
Yeah, absolutely. I. I live inNorthern California, north of Sacramento,
kind of halfway betweenSacramento and Chico and a smaller
farm farming community calledYuba City. Wow. I travel through
extensively, like for my job.I'm always on the road traveling.
So, you know, that's not wheremy office is located, but that's,
(03:09):
you know, that's where I live.
Okay. And then I'm just goingto assume, you know, you're a native
to Northern Californian. Itseems like a lot of people.
That are born there. Yeah,absolutely. Yep. Got my California
Born and Raised tattoo.
And so now I gotta ask thetough questions. Does that mean like
Giants, you know, Niners,Warriors? Is that all that stuff
(03:31):
on your side? Kind of, yeah.
I mean, so it is definitely.In order of. It would be Niners,
then Giants, then probably theKings. Although I love the warriors
too.
Now how the Kings jump inthere? Where does that. Oh, A. Sacramento.
I'm sorry. Oh, that's evencloser. My first thought went to
hockey. No worries. Yeah. Allright, so that makes sense. And then
(03:55):
don't you have the Oakland Aceplaying with you? Like you get a
whole couple seasons.
Of the Oakland A's playing in Sacramento.
I can't even imagine whatthat's like. I can't imagine. I'm
in St. Petersburg. Right. Sothe Ray's Stadium roof got blown
off by Milton and so they'replaying at an 11,000 seat spring
(04:16):
training facility that theYankees, you know, use all the time.
So they're in the same boat,but they're also the two teams. So
they're the lowest inattendance the last probably 10 years.
So it kind of works out.
It's a great little stadium,River Cat Stadium. It's. It's an
excellent little stadium. Asmall venue and stuff. So easy to
get in and out of too. So it'dbe nice to catch a ball game there.
Yeah. Do you River Cats areaffiliated with who?
(04:40):
River Cats were. Wereaffiliated originally with the A's.
I think they're now affiliatedwith the. The Giants.
Okay. So stayed up keepingthat area good?
Yeah.
All right, cool.
So when.
I said when you talk. When youtalk Niners, you live there your
whole life. I just have to. Ilike sports a lot and I. I imagine
the 80s were just like anunbelievable time to be a Niners
(05:01):
fan. Is that. And into the 90sas well, because you had young that
took over and had to be just ablast. Yeah. I grew up in San Diego,
Russell. So you know what thatmeans. I mean, I'm sorry.
Condolences.
Exactly. Never experienced achampionship of any kind. Unless
you count the indoor soccerleague. The Soccers. That was their
name. Yeah.
Ranks right up there.
(05:22):
Yeah. Nine. Nine championshipsin like 10 years.
Indoor soccer. Really close.
All right, I guess we're donetalking sports.
Well, the hope. Hope is therefor you, though, because now you
have a EX 49er coach, so youshould have.
True. But they're in LAthough, so.
Oh, well, if you're still afan. Right?
(05:42):
Not a fan. I. I'm not a fan.If they left the city, this Clippers
left, boom. We were done withthem. Now the Chargers have left.
We're stuck. Not stuck. Westill have the Padres, who have a
great ownership. They're.They're. They have a chance. They
have a shot. You no longerhave Bochi. So good. That means.
Because he's the guy that winsall the World Series. He won him
with the Rangers, you know,last year. Right. So. Yeah, it's
(06:03):
just great. I. I love. I loveNorthern California sports. I love
going up there. I've. My wifeand I have made many trips up there
just to really. Just to watchgames. Super cool.
So are you saying that SanDiego has a chance in that division?
Yeah, I am going to say theyhave a chance for making the playoffs.
I don't know.
I don't know if they're gonnafeel like I'm listening to Dumb and
Dumber. Right. So you'resaying there's a chance.
(06:25):
Yeah. Well, look, you know,you got Fernando Tatis. You got some
great pitching. You've gotMachado. I like. There's Merrill.
Jackson. Jackson, Merrill.Yeah, I'm just. It's. Look, it's
just what I do. I am. I'm veryoptimistic, so.
I'm a Giants fan. I am too.But it's just. It's tough to look
at that Dodger lineup.
I know, it's rude. That's whyyou get that you Got to go wild card.
(06:47):
You know, you have beenassociated with IPX 1031 and maybe
a couple of other operationsthrough your career. But we're talking
about nearly three decades ora little over three decades that
you focused on this, this onepiece of the, the IRS code that is
really important. Right, for alot of different people. So my first
(07:10):
question is, how do you getfrom. You're coming out of school,
how do you end up, you know,at that early into this part of the
game? Because it always seemsto me like people got there a little
bit later, maybe a second orthird, you know, piece of the puzzle,
kind of their career arc.
Well, it definitely was that Ididn't come out of school. I mean,
yeah, I've been in this 29years, but I went in the service
(07:33):
after school for severalyears, came back out and I actually
sold real estate first andthen transitioned to Fidelity Title
as a. I was. Well, I wasactually a sales rep and title for
another smaller brand. Andthen Fidelity recruited me to be
a sales manager for them. Andthen it was IPX 29 years ago that
(07:55):
recruited me to come over andcover at that point, Northern California
for them. Okay, so, yeah,yeah. So it wasn't just at straight
out of school.
How would you compare the twojobs you left, you know, this, the
title side of businessdevelopment and went to the, this
a very specific situation with1031. How do you compare the two?
(08:15):
Was there, are there bigdifferences or is it kind of the
same?
No big differences for sure.So, you know, I really enjoyed the
title side. I was actually atthat point because I had gone from
a sales rep with a smallertitle company to a sales manager.
And I was managing just twosales. Managing the salesforce, just
two small counties in NorthernCalifornia. And I was, after a couple
(08:36):
years, we were doing reallywell. We'd expanded market share
substantially and I was justlooking to kind of expand. So I was
engaging with a couple of thecounty managers who didn't have,
who were close by, that didn'thave a. A sales manager. And I was
kind of trying to get throughthe bureaucracy of seeing how that
would work with everybody. Andalong the same, about the same time,
IPX approached me and theywere looking to expand in Northern
(08:58):
California. And they said,hey, we want you to take on like
29 counties in northernCalifornia. And my passion throughout
all of my life, one of mygreatest passions has always been
public speaking. I love it.And I've competed on national levels
in both humorous andmotivational speaking. So, you know,
this job this job is moreeducational. Like sales on the 1031
(09:19):
side is going out and givingone to three hour classes in a lot
of cases for accredited foraccreditation to realtors, commercial
brokers, CPAs, attorneys,things like that. Right. On how to
use the 1031 exchange to, youknow, better assist their clients,
but also how to, in the realestate world, how to capture more
clients. So for me it just,you know, it allowed me to do what
(09:44):
I love. Right. Go out thereand do public speaking every day
with the clients. And so it'sa lot different. It's a different
sales, definitely a differentsales tactic than it is on the title
side for sure. Yeah.
Still relationship buildinggoing on, but it's in a different
level. Yeah, but a littledifferent. You're not, you know,
following people around onthe, on the title side. You know,
(10:07):
those relationships have tostay strong. You got to continue
those kinds of things. Maybeit's not the same when you're talking
about doing those, you know,accredited sessions kind of on a
regular basis. You want tostay connected to those people, but
it's not that same level. Doesthat make sense?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It'sjust a little different. Right. Because
so I deal in internal revenuecode. And so, you know, agents and
(10:28):
the clients themselves,they're not familiar with, you know,
what you can and can't do. Andso, you know, it's my in depth knowledge
of taxation. Right. Realestate tax law, internal revenue
code, tax, all of that stuff,everything having to do with real
estate. And so, you know, I'm,I'm that resource for them that they
can pull in to make themselveslook good. Right. Because I'm, I
(10:48):
have all the answers that, thequestion that they're, that their
clients need because theycan't speak to it because it's outside
the scope of their licensing.Right, right. Yeah. Right. So, so
yeah, it's, it's aneducational sales play.
Gotcha. You mentioned it justa second ago that the type of people
that you work with, it's notjust for the most part when we're
on the title side, we'reworking with, you know, realtors
(11:09):
and lenders. Pretty muchthat's going to be the sum total.
But you were talking aboutcommercial brokers, investors, financial
planners, attorneys, all thesedifferent groups that you're connected
to. Percent I don't want tomake you have to give me exact numbers.
But maybe could you break outlike what percentage of the work
you're doing is residentialversus commercial or you know, attorney
(11:31):
versus, you know, realtor,that kind of Thing.
Yeah, all of them definitelydifferent for sure. Right. So I'd
say that just because of sheervolume, there's always going to be
more residential transactions.Right. Because there's more single
family rental properties, rawland, there's, you know, multi family,
one to four, that kind ofstuff. There's more just in sheer
(11:52):
volume than there is in thecommercial. Right. So there are more
residential transactions thanthere are commercial. Although, you
know, we certainly target thecommercial for sure, because those
are the larger deals. So ifyou're dealing with, you know, you
know, a higher volume in, youknow, the value of the, the real
estate, then the commercial iscertainly, you know, great. But the
(12:14):
volume on just the sheertransaction numbers is definitely
on the residential side. Andfrom a standpoint of referral sources,
like who's the mostinteraction I probably have is on
the residential side also,just same thing, because they're
the ones that are, I wouldsay, most hungry for the information.
And I show that I specializein showing, you know, realtors how
(12:38):
to capture more listings.Right. Using the 1031 exchange. Because
a lot of Realtors areintimidated by soliciting investors
because they have this mindsetof, well, gosh, because they're an
investor, they know more thanI do. The reality is they don't.
Right. So, and thensecondarily, probably commercial
brokers, I deal with them alot and then to a little lesser expense
(12:59):
extent, although just asimportant is I do teach accredited
courses for CPAs and attorneysas well.
Okay. So I know a little bitabout 1031 exchanges just because
I ran a branch for 10 yearsand we had them. You know, there's
qualified intermediaries,there's, it's really important timelines,
like, like critical timelinesthat can blow up a deal. Might have
(13:20):
happened once or twice. Butcan you. First of all, I, I'd love
to ask you this question. Whatare some of the biggest misconceptions
about 1031 exchange? Doessomebody come to you and go, yeah,
I've heard I can do thisbecause it's going to do that. And
you're like, no, that's notreally the case. Like something that's
common, Is it, is it, is itout there?
Oh, absolutely. There's one,the, the most glaring one that I
(13:42):
have seen for throughout the29 years I've been doing this is
the misconception of like,kind. Right? That is huge. Right.
Because in a 1031 exchange,you can sell a piece of real estate
and buy a piece of real estateand defer all the tax. Right. That's
the big benefit of 1031. Butthe key is that both properties involved
(14:05):
in the exchange, the oneyou're selling and buying, they both
have to be like kind with oneanother. Right. And so most people
like myself are visual. So,you know, you think, okay, well,
if I'm selling raw land, Ihave to buy raw land. If I'm selling
a single family, I have to buya single family commercial for commercial,
commercial, etc. And it's notthe case. It's not what a property
(14:25):
looks like that makes it likekind. It's how it's treated for tax
purposes. Right. Any propertythat's treated for business or investment
purposes is like kind. So youcan sell raw land and you can buy
single family rental property,commercial industrial, mini storage.
Right. It's all like kind,it's all interchangeable. And that's
(14:46):
kind of one of the greatestbeauties of 1031. And why 1031 is
such a powerful wealthbuilding tool. Because, you know,
as, as an investors, as theygrow older in life, their financial
objectives naturally change,Right. They pivot from appreciation
to cash flow to maybe goingpassive. Right. Well, you know, all
the different types of realestate have different types of financial
(15:07):
objectives. So as yourobjectives change, the 1031 allows
you to pivot, right, to thatdifferent type of like kind real
estate that better suits yourcurrent financial objectives. I can't
count the number of times overmy 29 years that I've had tax and
legal advisors tell myclients, you can't exchange raw land
for improved property. It'snot like kind that's 100% false.
(15:29):
It's never been true.
It's so weird because youthink about it, that's the, they're
missing it on the side of, Idon't want to mess up around with
the government or the IRSbecause they're saying like kind,
so it's got to be the same. Sothey're, they're, they're, there's
something weirdly positiveabout that. But then you get to be
a hero and go, let me tell yousomething, it's just how they're
(15:49):
treated. And that's differentthan like you said. So I think that's,
that's kind of cool. I mean,you do you come out of this going,
oh my God, you really knowwhere we're at and how we're going
to make this happen.
Yeah. And it's a realopportunity for especially realtors,
Right. To solicit people thatown raw land and to let them know.
(16:10):
Because most people,especially if it's, you know, if
it's under, you know, 50acres, right. It's 5 acres, 10 acres.
Right.
It's a building lot for them.They don't. They have no income coming
off of it. They, they eitherinherited it or they bought it and
they own it all cash. Right.They have no mortgage on it, so they're
not going to sell it. It's noton their radar to sell, but nobody's
(16:31):
approached them and said, hey,you know, you got at that land is
worse, $300,000. That's$300,000 of stagnant equity. Right.
Producing zero cash flow foryou and zero depreciation. You can
sell that and I can buy yourfirst, you know, investment property
for you, like a rental. Right.Now you have income, now you have
depreciation. Right. You, youreally dramatically change somebody's
(16:54):
financial, you know, outlook.Right. Just by being. You can, you
can change somebody's life by20, 30, $40,000 a year by simply
dropping that seed. Right.People would be willing to do it
if they simply knew the optionexists out there.
Right. I can see you talkingto a room full of a hundred realtors
and just little headexplosions everywhere when you say
(17:16):
that. If they were all memes.
That's why I wear hazmat suitsin my presentation. So. Yeah. Yeah.
You're kidding me.
Yeah.
That's awesome. Just, justfor, for the, the primary listeners,
this are residential realtors.So can, can you. Do you mind walking
(17:36):
us through what a typical goodold fashioned 1031 exchange looks
like when they're just goingto help an investor move from one
type of property to another?What does it look like? What's the
process?
Yeah, the process isrelatively simple. A lot of people
think it's very complicated,and it's actually not. So we can't
set up an exchange forsomebody until they've accepted an
(18:00):
offer on the property they'reselling. We call that the relinquished
property. Right. So oncethey've accepted an offer from a
buyer on the relinquishedproperty they're selling and they've
opened escrow. Right. Then wehave to set up the exchange. We have
to set it up sometime beforeclosing. It only takes us like a
day to set up the exchange.It's a super good process. So they're.
If they're not in Estro yet,we can't actually set up the exchange.
(18:23):
Although I should certainly betalking to them well in advance of
being an escrow. Right.Because the sooner I talk to them,
the better. I don't care ifthey're Selling four years from now.
Right. I want them to go intothe transaction completely stress
free and understanding whattheir priorities and objectives are.
Right, yeah. But then oncethey are in escrow, then we get a
copy of the purchase agreementfully executed by buyer and seller
(18:46):
and then we also need a copyof the title commitment. Right. Once
we have those two things, thenwe assign into the closing with the
title company as the seller onbehalf of the exchanger. Right. So
that's going to give the titlecompany instructions to wire those
funds to us upon closingbecause they can't go directly to
(19:07):
the exchanger because if theyhave any kind of control of funds,
they have a failed exchange.And then what we do is we create
a segregated commercial bankaccount we name the clients on also.
And those funds just sit therestatic in that exchange account waiting
for them to close on whateverthey're going to buy. And like you
stated, you know, they have 45days to identify and 180 days to
(19:28):
close. So once they're incontract on that replacement property,
then we're going to assigninto that Right. As the buyer on
their behalf and that's goingto give that title company instructions
to receive those funds from usto close the transaction. So we put
all of the exchange agreementsand assignments in place, we do all
the wiring throughout theentire process.
(19:49):
And it's relativelyinexpensive. I think people would
think it's a little more likewow, that's a lot of work and you're
working into two escrows. Butgenerally, isn't it, it's a flat
fee for most transactions,especially on the residential side.
Yeah, it is. It's a flat feestructure with us, although kind
of there is kind of regionalpricing. So it kind of varies. Most
(20:09):
of my regions we charge like athousand dollars. When you close
escrow on the relinquishedproperty, it just comes out of the
proceeds at closing and thenthere's a $250 fee charged when the
replacement property closes.So in most cases if they sell one
and buy $1,250 a total cost,that's it.
You know, you've been in thebusiness a long time and, and I mentioned,
(20:30):
I, I've seen things kind of gosouth after an exchange has been
opened. And generally speakingit's someone's doing something they
were probably told not to door they're going to do something
they're going to do somethingthey were told not to do. For you,
is there, is there over theyears, has there been something,
once again, something commonlike this is you, you can tell this
(20:52):
one's not going to go all theway through because of this.
Procrastination.
Oh, missing the timeline. Itsounds like number one killer.
Yeah, so. Because once therelinquished property has closed.
Right. Okay. Your clock hasstarted. You've got 45 calendar days,
not business days to identify.And you've got a total of 180 days
(21:16):
to close. 180 days is rarely aproblem. The 45 day identification
deadline is the number onekiller of 1031s. Because of procrastination
or somebody just says, youknow what? I don't want to write
a contingent offer, so I'mgoing to wait until my relinquished
property actually closes andfunds before I start writing offers.
(21:38):
Okay, you can do that if youwant to, but it's a bad strategy,
right? It's a little extrawork. If you write contingent offers.
Yeah. Maybe you're going tolose out on some and you'll have
to write twice as manycontracts as you would otherwise.
But you know what? Get intocontract on a replacement property
before day zero before therelinquished property closes. In
a perfect world, you shouldshoot for trying to complete your
(22:00):
Exchange before day 45 ever passes.
Yeah.
The reason, the reason why Isaid is because you know prior to
Midnight on day 45, you canchange your identification all you
want. You can add and revoketo your heart's content. But as soon
as midnight Strikes on day 45,you can only close on something you've
identified. So if you've namedthree properties and you've gone
(22:22):
past day 45 and you can forwhatever reason no longer buy any
one of those properties, itdoesn't matter what's happened or
whose fault it is. Yourexchange fails. You can't substitute
new properties after day 45.That's when it gets risky, is after
day 45.
Yeah.
So. Wow. You know thatwaiting, that procrastination to
(22:42):
get into contract and get pastyour inspections and contingencies
is the number one killer of exchanges.
I would assume that somepeople maybe look at that code too
literally and say, well Ican't, I can't start identifying
until after it closes. Butyou're saying, why are. You should
start identifying right now.Right. You gotta deal, you gotta.
You. You're an escrow. Startidentifying. Let's go find something.
(23:05):
Yeah, that makes sense.
You're a hundred percentcorrect. I have those conversations
with every single one of myclients and I wanna say probably
close to half of them say, ohmy gosh, I didn't know I could write
an offer first.
Gotcha. Yeah. That's awesome.Yeah, Good to know. That's great.
I have to ask you thisquestion, you know, over my time,
you know, with the FNF family.So it's been 25 years, right. I started
in 2000. And, and, and thereevery now and then, somebody starts
(23:30):
talking about changing the,the, the, the revenue code and the
1031 might be going away.You've. I'm sure you've been through
that a few times. Where are wenow with that? And how did you handle
that when that was, thatconversation was out there?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Yeah.
In my 30, 29 years of doingthis, dealt with it many, many, many,
(23:50):
many times. Every handful ofyears, I think this is the best way
to describe it. Every handfulof years, a politician stumbles upon
section 1031, right? And theyhave, you know, they see this section
1031 and they're not familiarwith. They're like, wait a minute,
there's $10 billion orwhatever the number is that's deferred
every year. If we simply getaway with this provision that I've
(24:12):
never heard of before, thenwe'll have $10 billion to spend on
what I want to spend on in mybill, right? And so they propose
it. Well, you know, we're partof the Real Estate Roundtable. You
know, it's everybody, it'snar, it's us, ccim, naop, everybody,
right? We spend a lot of moneyevery year with firms like Ernst
and Young doing economicimpact studies. This is real information
(24:35):
on the economy, right? On. Onwhat Section 1031 actually does for
the economy. And the realityis section 1031 is not a net loss
to the treasury. It's a netgain to the treasury in the billions
of dollars. Because there aretransactions, a lot of transactions
that happen that otherwisewould not happen, right? There's
(24:58):
real estate transactions.Because, you know, if I'm going to.
I want to sell my $5 millioninvestment property, right? I fully
depreciated, right? If I justsell it and pay my tax, I'm going
to get killed. It makes nosense for me to sell it, right? But
if I have this 1031, okay,well, I can sell it and defer the
tax. What I'm going to do is Ihave to reinvest in other real estate.
(25:19):
Every time you sell and buy,there's all kinds of things that
are happening, right? There'scons, there's all of the vendors
involved with the sale, titlecompanies, appraisers, banks, you
know, etc Contractors doingimprovements. A lot of different
things happen. Right. That'swhy real estate is such a big part
of the economy. It would, itwould create a lot less transactions
(25:41):
if 1031 was gone. Right. So wejust simply, every time, we simply
have to, you know, educatethe, the players on why Section 1031
is important to the economyand it would be harmful to the economy
if you eliminated it. Itwouldn't. It's not. They think it's
a pay for, and the reality isit's not a pay for. So that's why
we're always successful in noteliminating 1031.
(26:05):
Yeah. You know, the first. Asyou're saying that, the first thing
I think of is, like, not everyproperty that's being purchased through
that 1031 exchange is going to1031. That one, that one might be
paying taxes because thatperson needs the money and they just
can't do the deferment. So I,it makes sense that there's a lot
of transactions are turned onby this, by this process. It would
just go away.
(26:26):
Yeah. Because if you take awaythe incentive of 1031, the tax deferral,
then it becomes too punitiveto sell my property. So what I'm
going to do is I'm just goingto hold on to it for the rest of
my life and let my kids dealwith it after I die.
Right. What great strategy.Exactly. You talked about your, your,
(26:46):
your, your passion for publicspeaking, and you've done thousands
of these presentations. SoI've done maybe, maybe I got two,
A thousand of trainings andthings at the association level.
Kind of like, you know, youwere doing. But, but on a, on technology
and all this other stuff, andit was always residential. You have
these different audiences. Iwant to know because I'm just going
(27:07):
to flat out say this, Russell,tax code can be boring. So you agree,
right, with that comment.Okay, good, good. So how do you,
how do you keep an audienceengaged? I mean, you must have case
studies or you might, you gotto have some fun with it. Right.
It sounds like you have a lotof fun with it.
Oh, yeah. I mean, if you knewme personally, you would know. Right.
(27:28):
I'm. I'm a clown at heart.Right. I just, I truly believe in
making people laugh and smileno matter where I'm at. I'm, I'm
super serious, too, and I'm astudent of the business for sure.
But, you know, humor is soimportant in, just in life in general.
Right. Not just in business.And so, yeah, my presentations are
filled with humor. Alsomotivation. Right. So, so, yeah,
(27:52):
I mean, going to one of mypresentations, depending on who I'm,
who my audience is, like ifit's attorneys and CPAs, they're
a little more serious. So Isprinkle in some humor. But if it's
realtors, it's, it's like animprov. Right. As I hear, I'm a stand
up comedian in front of those guys.
Yeah.
So it just varies. And so,yeah, without fail not to sound,
(28:13):
you know, I don't want tosound vain or anything like that,
but I mean, but I always doget that in comments afterwards and
testimonials of like, wow,I've never been to a 1031 class.
That was so entertaining.
Yeah, that's great. I thinkthat's huge. I think that's a big
piece of, you know, I'm doingsome stuff right now with, you know,
in the FNF world we're dealingwith in here. Right. Our living here
and our start in here andtracking here and all that great
(28:33):
stuff. It's not superexciting, but yeah, the goal is if
I can get someone laughing inthe room and you know, just a quick
quip, it just makes it a wholedifferent experience. Right. And
I think that's so, I love.
That it's endearing, you know,for the clients, you as well. Right.
I think it's, in some waysit's a little selfish. I, because
(28:54):
I gain from it. Right. Ireally enjoy making people laugh.
It makes me feel good. Right.And so, I mean, so it's a win, win.
And they're not going toforget you. That's, that's key. That's
a key, key piece of that.
Russell.
There's, you know, we havemulti generations. There's used to
be the, the millennials werethe biggest group of home buyers.
I just heard earlier thisweek, it's now boomers. So that in
(29:19):
your world, in the 1031 world,which one's the most important? Where
are you seeing the mostactivity and who needs to be paying
more attention?
Yeah, definitely. So last yearthe exchange world was actually really
busy. You know, on, on theresidential side, I know a lot of
realtors saying, well, itwasn't a great year. And the 1031
side, the investor side, itwas a really good year. There was
(29:40):
a high, high amount of volume.This year we're considerably ahead
of last year, year to date,and we anticipate that trend to continue
throughout the year. Thedemographic that is mainly responsible
for that increase in volume isthe baby boomers. My people, our
People. Yes, they are. Theyare repositioning their real estate
(30:01):
assets throughout the phasesof retirement they're going through.
Right. To better suit theircurrent financial objectives. Only
about 20% of the population isbaby boomers, but over 40% of the
real estate is owned by thatdemographic in the United States.
And so for every baby boomerthat maybe is repositioning real
(30:23):
estate assets right now,there's probably four or five or
more that aren't. So many ofthem are not repositioning assets,
and they need to, you know, sofor those reps out there or realtors
out there listening to thispodcast, you really need to solicit
the baby boomers as ademographic, especially baby boomers
(30:44):
that own single family rentalproperties. Because if you're somebody
of retirement age and you ownsingle family rental properties,
you're in the wrong asset class.
Right.
I'm a financial analysis guy.That's my life. Like numbers and
tax law is my life, which Iknow sounds really sad. So, but,
(31:05):
but, you know, from afinancial analysis standpoint, they're
in the wrong asset class. Andjust to kind of build the scenario.
So this is a very typicalscenario where you have a retired
couple and they own sevensingle family rental properties,
free and clear. Super commonscenario. Well, when they bought
their first piece of realestate, they were in their 20s or
30s, because somebody said,buy real estate, it's a good investment.
(31:25):
So they bought a fixer. Right.After a couple years, they fixed
it up, had some sweat equityin the property, maybe a little positive
cash flow coming off it, andthey're like, hey, this is cool,
let's do it again. Andeventually they buy another one and
another one. Now they own 5,7, 10 single family rental properties,
all free and clear. They thishas always been a side hustle for
(31:46):
them, Right. Because they're aretired teacher, fireman, policeman,
something like that. Right?
Right.
They're not a real estateinvestor as from a standpoint of
it being their sole source of income.
Right.
It was passive to them.They're not into financial analysis.
They've made a lot of money ontheir real estate because over three
decades it's doubled ortripled in value, and now they own
(32:09):
it free and clear. So they'vebuilt wealth. Well, when they first
got into real estate, theybought single family because that's
affordable, right. Well, itjust so happens that was the perfect
asset class to buy into,because from a financial analysis
standpoint, single family, theprimary financial objective of that
in most of the United Statesis appreciation, not cash flow. So
(32:29):
they built the right. Theybought the right kind of asset to
appreciate. Right. Well, nowthey're of retirement age and they're
sitting on assets that are notdesigned for cash flow. Right. That's
not the primary objective ofsingle family. It's appreciation.
They're in the wrong assetclass. Right. They need to go, they
need to be in commercialbecause commercial is designed for
(32:49):
cash flow. But then they also,there's typically one other financial
analysis, financial objectiverather, that goes right along hand
in hand with somebody who'sretired. And that's passive. Right.
I want to maximize cash flowon the equity I have, but I also
want to go passive. I don'twant to deal with the headaches of
real estate. Right. Especiallyif you live in states like California,
which is a, not a landlordfriendly state at all. So you should
(33:14):
be going into triple netlease, commercial then. Right. But
that can be daunting, right.That there's, there's this thing
out there most people haven'theard of, called the dst, Delaware
Statutory Trust. Right. Whichis a type of replacement property
in a 1031 that's been aroundfor over 21 years. And when you buy
into a DST, you're buying afractional ownership interest in
(33:37):
a very large institutionalgrade asset. It's going to be like
an Amazon distribution centerfor $150 million or a huge climate
control mini storage or seniorcare facility, something like that.
Right. And you're just apassive owner in it. You just receive
cash flow every month withoutany duties, responsibilities or maintenance
costs. Right. It is literallypassive. So, you know, without creating
(34:00):
this podcast as being a class,there's just a lot of, there's a
lot of baby boomers out therethat are not repositioning right
now, and they should bebecause they don't know their options.
That's. That's awesome,Russell. That'd be some great content
to be spreading around forsure. Russell, I, I know that 1031
(34:21):
is a, is federal code, federallaw. Right. So does that mean it's.
The states don't really havemuch to do with it or how does that
play into the, to the. Howthis works?
Yeah, great question. So 1031is federal because it's part of the
Internal Revenue Code, but allstates recognize the 1031, right?
There was one state,Pennsylvania, that didn't, but then
(34:42):
two years ago they finallydid. So now all states recognize
the 1031. So you can buy andsell and cross every single state
line. So, you know, it's verycommon for people to decide, you
know, What? You know, I livein Montana, but, you know, I really.
It's getting too cold for us.We want to retire, so we want to,
you know, we want to buysomething in Scottsdale because,
(35:05):
you know, we want to retirethere because we love golf and we
love like 150 degrees in thesummer. I love driving with oven
mitts in my car, so. But yeah,there's different reasons why people
are in the tender. One allowsyou to do that, right. It allows
you to, to, you know, transferyour assets into other states without
having to pay federal or statetax. So it's huge if, if somebody's
(35:26):
going to be retiring inanother state or somebody's thinking
about buying a second home orvacation home in another state. The
1031's a tool for that.
Look, I'm looking at the clockand I know we both have. We're working
today, so I'm going to goahead and ask you the same question
I've asked every guest andthat is what one piece of advice
would you give a new agentjust getting started in the business?
(35:49):
Yes. So that's a really greatquestion. So I would say definitely,
you know, seek out your 1031guy, maybe even Russell, and do not,
do not leave investors out ofyour solicitations. Right. A lot
of people that just get intothe business, they're going to be.
They're going to do theircomfort zone. They're just going
(36:10):
to go after people that ownsingle family primary residences.
Right. Because there's thisintimidation factor that, oh, my
gosh, I'm new agent. I don'tknow as much as an investor does,
so I can't engage them. That's100% false. You know, there's this.
There's this area, I call itkind of like purgatory. In real estate
solicitations, the majority ofrealtors solicit owner occupied by
(36:33):
far. Right. And then you havethe very far end of the spectrum
of like commercial and ag andstuff like that, which are all solicited
by commercial brokers and agbrokers. But then you have this,
what I call the kind ofpurgatory in between. It is where
you have single family rentalproperties, multifamily 1 to 4, and
you have, you know, raw land,but small, not farms, not ranches.
(36:55):
Right. You know, 50 acres orless kind of thing. Those people
aren't solicited. Right?They're not. So nobody's telling
them what their options areand how to reposition to better,
you know, suit whatever theircurrent financial objectives are.
So if you're just getting intoreal estate. You know, definitely
solicit those investors, workwith somebody like myself and you
(37:17):
know, have even eveningclasses. You know, bring those people,
the investors into a class andeven like how to build wealth with
the 1031 exchange. There'stools like we have. I have tools.
I have postcards, flyers, allkinds of things that you can, that
they can use to go after thosetypes of clients. So I guess that'd
be my number one. You're goingto be soliciting possibly. You know,
(37:39):
you're not competing witheverybody else after. With. After
unoccupied. Right. And, and yeah.
And there's help. There's helpavailable. You're there. Right?
There's.
And then everyone at IPX 1031,there's going to be somebody in your
area that can push you alongand help you kind of learn the ropes.
That's great. I love that.That's a great piece of advice. So
Russell, if somebody wants toreach out to you, have another conversation
(38:01):
about this, what's the bestway for them to do that?
Yeah, so two ways. One is bycell phone. My cell phone. And this
is actually my cell phone. SoI'm going to give it to you. And
you can call me anytime, nomatter where I'm at in this country
because I travel all over. Butyou can. If you call me at like 8
o' clock on a Friday night,the first thing you don't have to
say is, Russell, I'm so sorryfor bugging you. I'm a financial
nerd. I'm a geek. I don't havea life. So you'd be giving me a life
(38:23):
by simply calling me andasking me questions. So cell Phone
number is 530-755-8355. Emailaddress. My first and last name.
So it's Russell. R U S s e l ldot Marsan M A R S A N@ipx1031.com
this has been great, Russell.
(38:44):
Thank you so much. I. I reallyknow. I. Now I gotta like give Matt
some props. I mean, this was afantastic episode. Really a lot of
good information, especiallyfor my audience. So I think this
has been fantastic. Thanks foryour time today. You know, the Niners
will be back one day. Youknow, it's just the flow.
Well, that's why God made wine.
(39:05):
And you're close to it. It'seven better. Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks
so much. This has been great.
My pleasure. Absolutely. My pleasure.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!