November 4, 2025 • 30 mins
Mergers and Acquisitions: Insights from BrokerVMA's Norma Rawlings
In this enlightening discourse, we engage with Norma Rawlings, the esteemed founder of BrokerVMA, who shares the nuanced complexities of valuations and mergers within the real estate sector. Norma's extensive experience, spanning nearly 25 years, imbues her insights with a depth of knowledge that is both compelling and informative. We delve into the intricacies of how real estate brokerages can strategize their exit plans to maximize value, highlighting the importance of aligning with potential buyers who share similar values and business philosophies. The conversation further explores the distinctions between the Canadian and American real estate landscapes, particularly in the context of operational practices and ancillary revenue generation. As we traverse these pivotal topics, it becomes evident that understanding one's unique market niche and building a legacy are paramount for success in this dynamic industry.
In this insightful episode, Bill Risser welcomes Norma Rawlings, whose expertise in real estate valuations and mergers and acquisitions presents a rare perspective on the industry. Norma's journey from a family law attorney to a successful entrepreneur in real estate finance is a testament to her adaptability and keen business acumen. Throughout the conversation, she discusses the foundational principles of valuing real estate brokerages, stressing the significance of understanding the market value and the financial metrics that underpin successful transactions. The dialogue also touches upon the importance of fostering relationships that are mutually beneficial, thereby creating environments where both buyers and sellers can realize their aspirations. Norma shares compelling anecdotes from her experiences, illustrating the common pitfalls that brokers encounter when navigating the sale of their businesses, and the vital need for realistic expectations regarding valuations. The episode also explores the cultural nuances and regulatory frameworks that distinguish the Canadian real estate market from its American counterpart, offering listeners a comprehensive view of the industry's operational landscape.
Takeaways:
- Bill Risser introduces the podcast as a platform for discussing real estate stories and insights, emphasizing its longevity and extensive episodes created over the years.
- Norma Rawlings shares her journey from family law to real estate, highlighting her educational background and the evolution of her career towards mergers and acquisitions.
- Broker VMA, co-founded by Norma, focuses on assisting real estate companies with valuations and mergers, aiming to help them exit successfully while maintaining their legacy.
- The conversation covers the differences between real estate practices in Canada and the U.S., particularly regarding revenue generation and regulatory environments.
- Norma's experiences reveal that a significant question from brokerage owners is about the worth of their business, emphasizing the importance of proper valuation processes.
- The podcast concludes with insights on the essential qualities for new real estate agents, stressing the value of expertise and local knowledge in developing a successful career.
Links referenced in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
You're listening to the RealEstate Sessions and I'm your host,
Bill Risser. With nearly 25years in the real estate business,
I love interviewing industryleaders, up-and-comers, and anyone
with a story to tell. It's thestories that led my guests into careers
in real estate that drive min my 10th year and over 400 episodes
of the podcast. And now I hopeyou enjoy the next journey. Hi, everybody.
(00:27):
Welcome to episode 427 of theReal Estate Sessions podcast. As
always, thank you so much fortuning in. Thank you so much for
telling a friend. Today wetravel north to Sudbury, Canada.
No, I didn't know where thatwas either when I first started doing
my research. However, we'regoing to learn a lot about Sudbury
(00:48):
and we're going to learn a lotabout what goes on in the world of
mergers and acquisitions,valuations, all this great stuff,
because we have with us todayNorma Rawlings. Norma is the founder
of Broker vma, doing somewonderful stuff in both Canada and
the States. And so it's gonnabe fun. Let's get this thing rolling.
Norma, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Bill. It's apleasure to be on.
(01:10):
Yeah, I'm very excited. Youknow, one of your. Someone you have
an operation that kind ofhelps you locate podcasts that you
might want to appear on. AndI'm always looking for interesting
people with interestingstories, and this is gonna be a lot
of fun, so I can't wait.
I appreciate your faith in me.
It'll be. It'll be easy, trustme. My wife and I, we actually honeymooned
(01:30):
in Canada. You're Canadian?Live there now? We. We started in
Vancouver and we ended thetrip in Edmonton, but along the way
we got to go through theRockies. And so, you know, huge fans
love what goes on up there.And. And I have been to the Rogers
center back when it was calledthe Sky Dome. Yes. My wife and I
stayed in the hotel thatoverlooked the field because I worked
(01:51):
for the Padres at the time,and it was easy to kind of get a
little help on things. And sojust a fantastic city, Toronto. But
you're not in Toronto. You're.You live a few hours north, correct?
I do. So my husband dragged mekicking and screaming in 93 from
London, Ontario, to Toronto,Canada. And Toronto is about double
(02:12):
the size of San Diego. So it'sabout 6.4 million people in the greater
Toronto area. And we actuallymarched in the first or in the second
93 Blue Jays victory parade.And my husband was articling at the
time with a firm that wasclose to downtown. And Bill, we were
(02:32):
out till 2 or 3 in the morningand we couldn't get a cab and we
could. And the subway stoppedrunning. So we slept on the couches
in his employer's office afterthe victory.
Wow. This is Joe Carter's homerun in the. Oh, Nelly.
That was 93. So that was, thatwas my. That was Toronto for me and
then. But now I live inSudbury. So Sudbury is the third
(02:55):
largest basin for nickel andcopper and precious metals in the
world. An asteroid hit itabout 1.85 million billion years
ago. And it's this miningcenter. It's an integrated mining
center where we produce allsorts of nickel and copper and precious
metals. And so I came therebecause I have four kids and my two
(03:19):
oldest are twin boys. They'rea minute apart, Bill. And they are
both hockey players. Notbaseball players, but hockey players.
And so they were both draftedto the Sudbury Wolves OHL team. So
it was after Covid, my. Mycareer is completely digital, meaning
I can do it from anywhere. Andso we followed them three hours north
(03:43):
of Toronto to Sudbury. And itis a, it is a city of 330 lakes and
only 200,000 people. Sothere's a lake for every 600 people.
Wow. So obviously they'restill. They're playing hockey now,
right?
They. They are. We've beenthere, we've been here for three
years now. As luck would haveit, my youngest by a minute was traded
(04:06):
to Windsor, just across fromDetroit, 13 months in. So he billets
during the hockey season, butboth of them are still in the ohl.
And actually last night they.I know you're, I know your Padres
experience. You'll appreciatethis. Last night my eldest had his
first five point game ever andmy youngest had, he's a defense.
(04:28):
He had two points. And they,they're just, they're, they're doing
really, really well. So itwas. I'm, I'm delighted that we moved
out here.
Oh my gosh, that's great. I,I've become a hockey fan now. Back
in Arizona, we had theRoadrunners, but it was different
than being with the Lightninghere especially we moved here in
2017 and lightning were justkind of getting it fired up.
(04:49):
Oh yeah. Tampa Bay is likeamazing. Yeah.
Yeah. Tell me. So Maple Leafs,is that your team.
When it comes to. No. Sowhat's funny is my eldest was drafted
in the, in the NHL draft twoJunes ago. He was drafted by the
Winnipeg Jets. So he's beenSigned to an entry level contract
with them. We're hoping he'llplay in Winnipeg next September.
(05:11):
And he's, he's got one moreyear with Sudbury ending in April.
And my younger guy, Bill,Winnipeg invited him to their rookie
tournament to play with hisbrother in September in Montreal
in front of 21,000 crazyMontreal. No, there were 20,900 crazy
Montreal fans and 100 Winnipegjets fans in the building.
(05:35):
So maybe that saves you someheartache not having, not having
to be a Maple Leafs fan,because I know. That's great. I love
that.
So we're definitely jets fans.And, and my, my younger guy is hoping
for an entry level contract aswell, but if he doesn't, he has a,
he has an offer from an NCAAschool and he's hoping to generate
(05:56):
a couple more this season.He's with the W. With the Windsor
Spitfires, who are anexcellent club this year.
I, I can't wait to watch forthe Rawlings name.
It's actually Walton. So they, they.
Walton. Okay, sorry.
Walton.
So I'll be watching for Walton.
Okay, good.
On the baseball side, youmentioned that, right? I have a history
there. Big Blue Jays fan, I'm hoping.
Because yes, we are, we arevery, we're not very happy that we're
(06:18):
going back to LA with. To dothree games in a row with only one
win. That is not a good thing.
It's going to be tough. Ithink it's still going to be tough,
but man, there's like Bichetteand Vlad. Unbelievable. And then
pitching coming out of nowherefor Toronto. Look, I'm with, I support
the Rays because I live here.I'm actually a 10 minute walk to
the trop. Right. So I love thefollowing. The team where I live
(06:40):
I think is critical to mebecause I grew up in a place where
everybody rooted for the otherteam. When you live in San Diego,
so many people come there,they root for their, they don't root
for the home team. And itbothered me. So I support the Rays
and I, you know, it was fun towatch them through that, the World
Series. They played againstthe Dodgers themselves back in 2020,
lost in six games. Then we sawthe Yankees lose to the Dodgers last
(07:01):
year. And now there's another,which is always fun.
When the Yankees lose. It'salways fun.
Another team in the East. Thistime it's going to be the Blue Jays
gets a shot at the Dodgers andhopefully they can, they can, they
can complete the job.
Well, it's been 32 years. It'sbeen a long time.
Long time. Cool. Well, sothat, like, we, you and I could sit
(07:22):
here and talk for the nexthour about this stuff. So. But there's
somebody listening somewherethat says, I thought she was doing
valuation and merger andacquisition stuff. So we're going
to get there. But I like tofind I always. It's a question I
ask maybe too many times, butat 15, Norma, what are you thinking?
Like, what's your plan? And Iknow it's hard to have a plan at
15, but was it in real estateand was it doing what you're doing
(07:43):
now?
Oh, no, no. I was. I was goingto be a. A basketball player. The
fact that I was a woman atthat time, you know, didn't really
cross my mind, Bill. It wasall about basketball. So I. I played
basketball. I won the awardfor the best basketball player in
my senior year of high school.I went on to play varsity basketball.
I. I thought there was acareer there for me. So I suppose.
(08:04):
And my husband is. Is veryathletic as well. So my two girls
play volleyball, my two boysplay hockey, and I play basketball.
You are very busy, I'mguessing, nights and weekends with
all kinds of things you mustattend, right?
I feel lucky every day. Yes.All four of them are healthy and
happy, and it is a pleasure tofollow them around. Yes.
(08:27):
That's great. That's awesome.You know, as I do basic research
to kind of trying to findsomething out about my guests. And
for you, it definitely was thelist of degrees you've obtained over
the years. And I would lovefor you to maybe just share the stories
of each one. I won't say howmany there are because it's kind
of cool. But I'll let youcontinue from here.
Sure. So my mom grew up 10minutes north of the New York Quebec
(08:52):
border in Quebec, so she wasbilingual. I grew up in London, Ontario,
a very English town. So Frenchcalled me. And I did two years of
university in French before Iwas accepted into law school. So
I finished my French BA Whilein law school in the summers. And
then in law school, I likedlaw because I wanted to work for
(09:13):
myself and I love to read. Sothe two kind of went together. And
I graduated with a law degreeand practiced for a while, and it
was not a passion project forme at all. And so a little later
I went back and got myexecutive mba and that was it. I
fell in love with the businesseducation and the people. So my current
(09:38):
business partner, Bill, wholives in Bradenton, Florida, he was
a classmate of mine, and Iremember sitting beside him during
the mba. And he has a greatsense of humor. And I swear I laughed
more in that class than Ilearned. But it was, it was a phenomenal
experience. And my two bestfriends, my two best girlfriends,
I come from the mba. Sobusiness school was, was definitely
(10:01):
a boon for my relationships inlife. And that, that, that ends the
three degrees that I have now.
First of all, what was yourfirst kind of job? As you know, in
with the mba? And second, howdoes real estate enter the picture?
So I actually was a family lawlawyer and I wrote a book on family
(10:23):
law when I was 28 years old.And I helped people mediate their
disputes as a family lawyer.That's what I did before I went back
for my mba. And then with mymba, the challenge was that I learned
how to use Excel and thatallowed me to pitch lenders on lending
me money to buy real estate.So that's what started the real,
(10:46):
the, the love of real estatewas. I remember one year, Bill, we
had toiled and sweat andearned maybe $150,000 from the law,
and we bought a building andwithin a year we had increased its
value by a million dollars.And I remember thinking, this is
way more fun. It's theleverage, right? It's that, it's
(11:07):
that sense of. And of courseit can go the other way, as you and
I know, but at that point itdidn't. And so that started the love
affair with, with real estate.
So now we gotta talk aboutbroker vma. This is the company you,
you own now. I think there's acouple of others too. We're gonna
have to find out about that.But broker VMA stands for valuation
and merger and acquisition. Soobviously one of the things that
(11:32):
in the world of real estate,the last thing people think about,
especially a layman, is gonnabe the fact that one day somebody
might sell that company orthey might want to acquire other
companies and, and even howthe recruiting works with all that.
It's such a behind the sceneskind of thing. Would you agree with
that?
Yes. In fact, one of. So mybest friend married a German and
he told me a story where hestarted his company as a nonprofit.
(11:56):
And about three years in,someone said to him, matthias, how
are you going to ever sell acompany that's a nonprofit? And,
and he thought, you know what,you're right. So he created a profit
arm and a nonprofit arm andended up selling it about 15 years
later for a nice price. And soyou're absolutely right, people,
when you first start out,you're just so confused about what
(12:19):
you're doing.
True.
That you just grow organicallyand try to figure things out. And
so what our company, Brokervma does is it says, okay, you've
now created something ofvalue. How do you then exit a winner
from that endeavor? Right. Howdo you exit in a way where you sell
to someone who shares yourvalues, is going to continue your
(12:40):
legacy and give you money forwhat you, what you made?
We talk about that, you know,at the, at the agent level. Right.
I mean they should be creatinga business. It's a much different
business than a brokerage, butthere's some piece of that that could
be transferred to somebodyelse for some money down the road.
Yeah, but look at, look atCompass where they're offering a
(13:02):
high powered aperture. Thesame, they're higher. They're offering
high powered real estate teamsand agents money to move to their
brand. Oh, definitely. Whenyou think about it, anything that
creates repeatable cash flowhas value.
Yeah, absolutely. Was there atthe time that you started this, your,
(13:23):
this company, was there aspecific need or gap or something
that you, you saw? Especiallybecause it might be, you know, I
know you work in both work allacross North America, but maybe did
it start in Canada first andthen get to the United States? How'd
that work?
It actually started in theStates first. So my business partner,
Wayne Einhorn, has been in thereal estate business since he was
(13:44):
about 16 years old. So he hasa large group of real estate brokers
that he coaches and he and Iwent to the NBA together. And so
in 22, he said to me, norma,he said, I've got all sorts of people
asking about valuations andmergers and acquisitions and, and
I'm so busy coaching, I can'tdeal with it. I, I'd really like
(14:04):
you to partner with me. And soover a couple of lunches and again,
he's a very humorous,entertaining person. I decided, you
know what, this sounds likesome fun. So that's when we started
Broker vma. And since then,Bill, we've done all sorts of valuations
for companies looking to sell.We've run sales processes for brokerages
(14:26):
who want to retire or exit.And we, and we've got a few clients
who love to buy. So we, weactually have two clients right now,
one in South Carolina, one inNew Jersey, who own over 30 different
franchises.
Wow. They like to buy.
And, and to, you know, when welook at the Compass anywhere merger,
(14:47):
you and I were chatting aboutit a little bit earlier, they're
very good at operating. Right.Like so many real Estate brokers
struggle to operate thebusiness because oftentimes they're
the best salesperson in theplace. And so they put out their
own shingle, attract people,but somebody who's great at sales
(15:07):
sometimes is not as good atsort of operations. And so being
able to operate these twofellows who bought so many locations,
they're very good operators.
Yeah, well, they, I'll bet youthey know the answer to this question
maybe as well as you do. I'mgonna, I wanna, I wanna know what
is the single most commonquestion that a real estate broker
(15:29):
owner asks you when they firstare thinking about this process?
There must be one question.You just go, I know this is coming.
Oh yeah, what is my businessworth? That is the most popular question,
Bill. And what they'll do isthey'll call me up and they'll say,
Norma, I've got 40 agents, I'min Tucson, Arizona. I have, you know,
250 or $300 million salesvolume. What am I worth? And I always
(15:53):
say, okay, I can give you arange, but to actually know what
you're worth, we need to do aproper valuation. So that is a very
common conversation. And I'vehad, I, thankfully, I think like
you, I really enjoy people andI especially like entrepreneurs.
And so I always enjoy thoseconversations and many of them lead
(16:16):
to a professional evaluationbeing done and then we run a sales
process for them.
I'm gonna, I'm not, not tryingto put you on the spot, but what
percentage of thoseconversations do you have an owner
that's, I'll just be, I'll sayit this way, slightly unrealistic.
Oh. So we had an interestingconversa. We had an interesting situation
a while back. So we had aFlorida brokerage and they had a
(16:39):
hundred agents and they were,they were very productive, independent.
And the owner, Bill, had hisson in law value the brokerage. The
problem was the son in law wasin tech. So of course tech companies
are valued based on their topline and it's a much higher multiple.
(17:00):
Whereas real estate brokeragesare valued based on their EBITDA
and a smaller multiple. So hehad told his father in law that the
business is worth at least $3million. And I had to deliver the
message that it was actuallyonly a million once I finished my
valuation. So that wasprobably the toughest conversation
(17:21):
that I had with an owner. Andhe was bitterly disappointed. And
I had to explain to him thatreal estate brokerages, they just,
you know, all your agents, theday after you sell can leave. So
they just don't have the samevalue in the same multiples as a
technology company. So, yeah,that was. Now, he ultimately ended
up selling for about 1.6million. So it worked out well. But.
(17:45):
But my value was sitting at amillion. So he, what he did is he
found a strategic buyer thatwas wanting to enter the Florida
marketplace. So it all workedout well.
Yeah, like anything beingsold, it's what someone willing to
pay ultimately, definitely.
And so when we do evaluation,we always say we're not doing it
as a listing document, we'renot doing it as a positioning document.
(18:08):
What we're trying to tell youis this is what we think it's worth
looking at both buyer andseller. And so it acts as sort of
a CIM for them when we then.And the other difficulty with selling
a brokerage, Bill, is youthink about it. If I own a brokerage
and I call you my competitorand I say, bill, are you interested
in buying my company? First ofall, you might say yes. Great. But
(18:32):
if you say no, then the nextday, potentially you're on the phone
with all my agents saying,norma's selling. You know, you may
want to come to my. You know,you may want to come to my place.
And so what we provide atbroker VMA is we give you that confidentiality
and that anonymity where youcan try out seven different properties
purchasers without knowanybody knowing who you are. So it's,
(18:56):
it's a valuable process. Forthat reason, it maintains that confidentiality,
which is critical because Iremember we, we dealt with a. A real
estate broker in Toronto. AndI always tease that if you wanted
everyone in the industry toknow what was going on by dinner
time, you told him atbreakfast something that you said
(19:17):
was a secret.
Oh, my. So the conversationswith that gentleman were few and
far between. I'm just guessing.
He was Irish, he was verycharming. He was lovely. But you
just knew if you told Kevin,this is a secret. Every single person
that you know in the industrywill know by dinner time.
(19:37):
That's great. I mean, I'mfascinated by your world because
it's such a unique there, youknow, there's not like thousands
of people running around doingwhat you do in the country, I would
guess.
No, we. So. So we broker vma.We do. Mark Lucas does some at rima.
Steve Murray does some over atReal Trends. And that's like, that's
(20:02):
sort of. Those are. The threeof us sort of do the bulk of it.
T360 is doing some as well,although they sort of act more as
a consultant technology piece.
Right.
But yeah, there's about threeor four of us that do it and we,
we all get along well becausethere's just so many, there's so
many potential clients. Right.There's, there's like 13, 14, 15,000
(20:24):
brokers with 25 or more agentsacross the, the U.S. and Canada at
least. And so there's, there'slots of business.
And it's, you know, youmentioned it before that more than
likely it's going to besomeone in the area that's going
to acquire and. Yes, and that,that would be the most common response.
But then you, you shared one,your other story. The gentleman who
(20:46):
was not happy with the truevaluation, he actually was able to
find someone who wanted toenter a market.
Oh, 100. So, so he, he sold toIAD and they're, you know, they're
a French company coming inwith a totally different model and
they, they don't have officesand they wanted a foothold in the
Florida marketplace. So Godbless both of them. The fact that
(21:08):
they found that win win. Butit's, it's interesting most of the
time if you're looking like ifyou, you know, you, I know you spent
a lot of time the San DiegoPadres, and I know now you're in,
in Florida and you've been inArizona and we've done business in
all three of those states.When you look at someone in Arizona,
for example, we recently didan independent that was bought that
(21:30):
we arranged to be purchased byEngel and Volkers. And it's, it's
perfect when it's a win win.Right. So you always want it to be
mutually beneficial on eachparty's side. And in this case, the
principles were so compatiblethat it was just easy. Right. They,
they met, we facilitated theintroduction, and when they got together,
(21:55):
they just connected. There wasthat compatibility right out of the
blocks. And so it makes it areally nice transaction because the
person selling receives theirmoney. They receive the ability to
sell at the new brokerage, andthe buyer expands their reach tremendously
and has the benefit of thelocal knowledge. So it was, it was,
(22:17):
it was a good transaction.
I know there are differences,you know, in the real estate world
between Canada and the U.S. right?
Yes.
One is the way our MLS systemin the U.S. is definitely a lot weirder
than something very uniformyou have in Canada, which, which
I would, I long for down here.How about in your world, in your
(22:37):
very specific world, are theredifferences between the countries
that you have to. Kind of.Obviously you have a lot of experience.
But early on, did you have tokind of figure that out?
Oh, I still have to figure itout. So Canada and the U.S. are different.
And one significant differenceis in the U.S. you guys do a fabulous
job of taking a real estatebrokerage and adding all sorts of
(22:59):
ancillary revenue sources toit. So that even if the brokerage
itself doesn't make money,your title, your mortgage, your relocation,
those make money. And, andthat's, that's a brilliant way to
bundle things because as youand I know, if you control the customer,
then you're able to controlthe revenue source for those ancillary
(23:22):
services. In Canada, it's muchmore, more regulated and we are not
able to do that.
Ah, so there are some negative things.
Oh yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm avery proud Canadian. I, I, you know,
I bleed red and white. I, Iabsolutely love our country. I feel
(23:42):
very fortunate to live here.Sudbury, as you and I said, has,
you know, 330 lakes. It hasall sorts of forests, as you mentioned.
You were out to Vancouver andAlberta. It's spectacular, right?
The, the country isspectacular. That being said, I'm
a huge fan of America as well.I have, I have a client in Wyoming.
We just did a phenomenaltransaction for the Prescott's in
(24:05):
Wyoming. Salsa. The earthpeople, they live in a beautiful
part of the world. Their son'splaying varsity football at college
and we found them a buyer whoshared their, their values of family
and faith. And so it's like aperfect connection. And I adore them,
so, and, and I love the partof the world they live in. We have
another client in WashingtonState. It's just, I'm, we are so
(24:29):
lucky to live in North Americalike it is. It is so vast and so
full of wilderness and so fullof places you can just sort of get
away.
The way you talk about yourbusiness, first of all, I know you
love what you do, but therehave to be, there had to be a time
where you said, no, we don'treally fit. We don't, we can't work
(24:50):
together.
Has that happened? Yes, ithas. It's usually when. So we always
strive for win, win and sortof mutually beneficial. And that
may come from the mediation Idid as a family lawyer. I don't know,
it's, it's. But I alwaysfigured that this isn't like I'm
(25:10):
trying to sell you a used carbill and then run away, right? It's,
it's a long term relationship.So. The Prescott's, for example,
they sold to Dennis Schick andChad Ochner. Well, they're going
to be together for at leastthe next three years because the
Prescott's going to continueto sell. You know, Dennis and Chad
are going to be running.They're going to be moved their,
(25:32):
their head office to Wyoming.So it's a relationship. It's. It's
a three minimum, three yearrelationship. And so if you aren't
in it for a mutuallybeneficial deal, if you're trying
to pull one over on someone,then we, we can't help you because
it just doesn't work. Right.You, you, you try to screw somebody
(25:54):
and it's just, it's just avery negative type of transaction.
So, yes, we have, we haveturned people away when they did
not appreciate that it's intheir best interest for the deal
to be mutually beneficial.
Yeah, no, I, I mean, I, I rana. I ran an escrow branch for 10
years and I turned. Usually itwas an investor doing something shady,
(26:16):
but, you know. Yeah, well,they just don't play by the rules
or just don't understand, youknow, that there are, that there
are things you have to do andthings you can't do and you have
to say no. And that's weirdbecause that's turning away potential
revenue, potential referrals,all kinds of stuff. But ultimately,
I, I kind of thought you wouldbe the same way.
Well, it, it's, It. I think itgoes back to that whole good people.
(26:41):
You want to do business withgood people. Right? You want. I,
I mean, I, I love my businesspartner. He's. He's one of my best
friends. He's a good person.And, and so it's a pleasure to work
with them. And you, you, youwant to raise good people. You have
a son in D.C. i have four.Four kids. I have two boys and two
girls. Like, you want them tobe good people. You want to be kind
(27:02):
and good and try to make theworld a better place, because those
are the people you want tospend time with.
Norma, this has been amazing.I knew this was going to be a great
episode. So is it Katarina whohelped us connect?
Yes. Okay.
Yeah. So you should give hermy thanks. This is what.
I thanked her already. I'llthank her for you, too.
(27:23):
Great. So this is the samequestion I've asked every guest since
Jay Thompson back in 2015.Jay's an interesting character, good
guy, and it's, It's. You're.Even though you're not a practicing
realtor, I'm going to guessyou have a great Answer for this
question. That is, what onepiece of advice would you give a
new agent? Just get enrollingin the business.
So I love that you end withthe same question every time, like
(27:46):
in 10 years. The consistencyis quite impressive.
Yeah.
So my, my, from what I see andfrom valuing so many real estate
brokerages and getting a senseof what agents are the most valuable,
it's about expertise, it'sabout a specialty. So if you think
about it, what do you, ifyou're getting into the business
(28:08):
and I know a couple of youngerpeople who are, I think the way to
look at it is, okay, what do Iknow best? Am I a former hockey player
and I know lots ofprofessional hockey players. Am I
so familiar with theneighborhood that I can tell you,
every bakery, every butcher,every tea shop, every, you know,
every place there. Is there amortgage lender that I'm close to
(28:30):
who's going to send me allsorts of power sale clients? Is there
a new home builder that I knowwell and I can sell his lots? Is
there an ethnic community thatI'm part of that I know intimately?
And, and to me, it's thatlevel of expertise and intimacy with
a neighborhood Bill, where youcan become the go to person for that
(28:51):
neighborhood. Because as, aswe know with real estate, it's so
local, right. It's so focusedon the corner of Maine and State.
It's, it's, you know, it'swhere it's what you know and what
you know intimately and betterthan somebody else that I think gives
you a tremendous advantage. Sothat, that is my humble advice.
(29:13):
It, it may be the first personto be that specific about that answer.
I'm always, you know, that'spretty cool because it's hard, it's
hard to come up with somethingdifferent after 400 plus responses.
But that's awesome. Norma, ifsomebody wants to reach out to you,
what's the best way for themto do that?
So brokervma.com is ourwebsite and all my contact information
(29:34):
is on there.
Great. Well, look, continuedsuccess to your children and to you
and your family. I mean, it's,I am so excited for you. Slightly
jealous as well that you havea couple of boys playing at the level
they're playing at. I'm sureyour daughters are fantastic in volleyball
as well. This has beenwonderful and thank you so much for
(29:55):
finding some time this morningand I appreciate you very much.
Can I say go Js?
Yes, you can.
And hopefully by the time thisairs, we will have won three in a
row.
Fingers crossed. Thanks, Norma.
Thank you very much, Bill.
You're listening to the RealEstate Sessions and I'm your host,
Bill Risser. With nearly 25years in the real estate business,
I love interviewing industryleaders, up-and-comers, and anyone
with a story to tell. It's thestories that led my guests into careers
in real estate that drive min my 10th year and over 400 episodes
of the podcast. And now I hopeyou enjoy the next journey. Hi, everybody.
(00:27):
Welcome to episode 427 of theReal Estate Sessions podcast. As
always, thank you so much fortuning in. Thank you so much for
telling a friend. Today wetravel north to Sudbury, Canada.
No, I didn't know where thatwas either when I first started doing
my research. However, we'regoing to learn a lot about Sudbury
(00:48):
and we're going to learn a lotabout what goes on in the world of
mergers and acquisitions,valuations, all this great stuff,
because we have with us todayNorma Rawlings. Norma is the founder
of Broker vma, doing somewonderful stuff in both Canada and
the States. And so it's gonnabe fun. Let's get this thing rolling.
Norma, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Bill. It's apleasure to be on.
(01:10):
Yeah, I'm very excited. Youknow, one of your. Someone you have
an operation that kind ofhelps you locate podcasts that you
might want to appear on. AndI'm always looking for interesting
people with interestingstories, and this is gonna be a lot
of fun, so I can't wait.
I appreciate your faith in me.
It'll be. It'll be easy, trustme. My wife and I, we actually honeymooned
(01:30):
in Canada. You're Canadian?Live there now? We. We started in
Vancouver and we ended thetrip in Edmonton, but along the way
we got to go through theRockies. And so, you know, huge fans
love what goes on up there.And. And I have been to the Rogers
center back when it was calledthe Sky Dome. Yes. My wife and I
stayed in the hotel thatoverlooked the field because I worked
(01:51):
for the Padres at the time,and it was easy to kind of get a
little help on things. And sojust a fantastic city, Toronto. But
you're not in Toronto. You're.You live a few hours north, correct?
I do. So my husband dragged mekicking and screaming in 93 from
London, Ontario, to Toronto,Canada. And Toronto is about double
(02:12):
the size of San Diego. So it'sabout 6.4 million people in the greater
Toronto area. And we actuallymarched in the first or in the second
93 Blue Jays victory parade.And my husband was articling at the
time with a firm that wasclose to downtown. And Bill, we were
(02:32):
out till 2 or 3 in the morningand we couldn't get a cab and we
could. And the subway stoppedrunning. So we slept on the couches
in his employer's office afterthe victory.
Wow. This is Joe Carter's homerun in the. Oh, Nelly.
That was 93. So that was, thatwas my. That was Toronto for me and
then. But now I live inSudbury. So Sudbury is the third
(02:55):
largest basin for nickel andcopper and precious metals in the
world. An asteroid hit itabout 1.85 million billion years
ago. And it's this miningcenter. It's an integrated mining
center where we produce allsorts of nickel and copper and precious
metals. And so I came therebecause I have four kids and my two
(03:19):
oldest are twin boys. They'rea minute apart, Bill. And they are
both hockey players. Notbaseball players, but hockey players.
And so they were both draftedto the Sudbury Wolves OHL team. So
it was after Covid, my. Mycareer is completely digital, meaning
I can do it from anywhere. Andso we followed them three hours north
(03:43):
of Toronto to Sudbury. And itis a, it is a city of 330 lakes and
only 200,000 people. Sothere's a lake for every 600 people.
Wow. So obviously they'restill. They're playing hockey now,
right?
They. They are. We've beenthere, we've been here for three
years now. As luck would haveit, my youngest by a minute was traded
(04:06):
to Windsor, just across fromDetroit, 13 months in. So he billets
during the hockey season, butboth of them are still in the ohl.
And actually last night they.I know you're, I know your Padres
experience. You'll appreciatethis. Last night my eldest had his
first five point game ever andmy youngest had, he's a defense.
(04:28):
He had two points. And they,they're just, they're, they're doing
really, really well. So itwas. I'm, I'm delighted that we moved
out here.
Oh my gosh, that's great. I,I've become a hockey fan now. Back
in Arizona, we had theRoadrunners, but it was different
than being with the Lightninghere especially we moved here in
2017 and lightning were justkind of getting it fired up.
(04:49):
Oh yeah. Tampa Bay is likeamazing. Yeah.
Yeah. Tell me. So Maple Leafs,is that your team.
When it comes to. No. Sowhat's funny is my eldest was drafted
in the, in the NHL draft twoJunes ago. He was drafted by the
Winnipeg Jets. So he's beenSigned to an entry level contract
with them. We're hoping he'llplay in Winnipeg next September.
(05:11):
And he's, he's got one moreyear with Sudbury ending in April.
And my younger guy, Bill,Winnipeg invited him to their rookie
tournament to play with hisbrother in September in Montreal
in front of 21,000 crazyMontreal. No, there were 20,900 crazy
Montreal fans and 100 Winnipegjets fans in the building.
(05:35):
So maybe that saves you someheartache not having, not having
to be a Maple Leafs fan,because I know. That's great. I love
that.
So we're definitely jets fans.And, and my, my younger guy is hoping
for an entry level contract aswell, but if he doesn't, he has a,
he has an offer from an NCAAschool and he's hoping to generate
(05:56):
a couple more this season.He's with the W. With the Windsor
Spitfires, who are anexcellent club this year.
I, I can't wait to watch forthe Rawlings name.
It's actually Walton. So they, they.
Walton. Okay, sorry.
Walton.
So I'll be watching for Walton.
Okay, good.
On the baseball side, youmentioned that, right? I have a history
there. Big Blue Jays fan, I'm hoping.
Because yes, we are, we arevery, we're not very happy that we're
(06:18):
going back to LA with. To dothree games in a row with only one
win. That is not a good thing.
It's going to be tough. Ithink it's still going to be tough,
but man, there's like Bichetteand Vlad. Unbelievable. And then
pitching coming out of nowherefor Toronto. Look, I'm with, I support
the Rays because I live here.I'm actually a 10 minute walk to
the trop. Right. So I love thefollowing. The team where I live
(06:40):
I think is critical to mebecause I grew up in a place where
everybody rooted for the otherteam. When you live in San Diego,
so many people come there,they root for their, they don't root
for the home team. And itbothered me. So I support the Rays
and I, you know, it was fun towatch them through that, the World
Series. They played againstthe Dodgers themselves back in 2020,
lost in six games. Then we sawthe Yankees lose to the Dodgers last
(07:01):
year. And now there's another,which is always fun.
When the Yankees lose. It'salways fun.
Another team in the East. Thistime it's going to be the Blue Jays
gets a shot at the Dodgers andhopefully they can, they can, they
can complete the job.
Well, it's been 32 years. It'sbeen a long time.
Long time. Cool. Well, sothat, like, we, you and I could sit
(07:22):
here and talk for the nexthour about this stuff. So. But there's
somebody listening somewherethat says, I thought she was doing
valuation and merger andacquisition stuff. So we're going
to get there. But I like tofind I always. It's a question I
ask maybe too many times, butat 15, Norma, what are you thinking?
Like, what's your plan? And Iknow it's hard to have a plan at
15, but was it in real estateand was it doing what you're doing
(07:43):
now?
Oh, no, no. I was. I was goingto be a. A basketball player. The
fact that I was a woman atthat time, you know, didn't really
cross my mind, Bill. It wasall about basketball. So I. I played
basketball. I won the awardfor the best basketball player in
my senior year of high school.I went on to play varsity basketball.
I. I thought there was acareer there for me. So I suppose.
(08:04):
And my husband is. Is veryathletic as well. So my two girls
play volleyball, my two boysplay hockey, and I play basketball.
You are very busy, I'mguessing, nights and weekends with
all kinds of things you mustattend, right?
I feel lucky every day. Yes.All four of them are healthy and
happy, and it is a pleasure tofollow them around. Yes.
(08:27):
That's great. That's awesome.You know, as I do basic research
to kind of trying to findsomething out about my guests. And
for you, it definitely was thelist of degrees you've obtained over
the years. And I would lovefor you to maybe just share the stories
of each one. I won't say howmany there are because it's kind
of cool. But I'll let youcontinue from here.
Sure. So my mom grew up 10minutes north of the New York Quebec
(08:52):
border in Quebec, so she wasbilingual. I grew up in London, Ontario,
a very English town. So Frenchcalled me. And I did two years of
university in French before Iwas accepted into law school. So
I finished my French BA Whilein law school in the summers. And
then in law school, I likedlaw because I wanted to work for
(09:13):
myself and I love to read. Sothe two kind of went together. And
I graduated with a law degreeand practiced for a while, and it
was not a passion project forme at all. And so a little later
I went back and got myexecutive mba and that was it. I
fell in love with the businesseducation and the people. So my current
(09:38):
business partner, Bill, wholives in Bradenton, Florida, he was
a classmate of mine, and Iremember sitting beside him during
the mba. And he has a greatsense of humor. And I swear I laughed
more in that class than Ilearned. But it was, it was a phenomenal
experience. And my two bestfriends, my two best girlfriends,
I come from the mba. Sobusiness school was, was definitely
(10:01):
a boon for my relationships inlife. And that, that, that ends the
three degrees that I have now.
First of all, what was yourfirst kind of job? As you know, in
with the mba? And second, howdoes real estate enter the picture?
So I actually was a family lawlawyer and I wrote a book on family
(10:23):
law when I was 28 years old.And I helped people mediate their
disputes as a family lawyer.That's what I did before I went back
for my mba. And then with mymba, the challenge was that I learned
how to use Excel and thatallowed me to pitch lenders on lending
me money to buy real estate.So that's what started the real,
(10:46):
the, the love of real estatewas. I remember one year, Bill, we
had toiled and sweat andearned maybe $150,000 from the law,
and we bought a building andwithin a year we had increased its
value by a million dollars.And I remember thinking, this is
way more fun. It's theleverage, right? It's that, it's
(11:07):
that sense of. And of courseit can go the other way, as you and
I know, but at that point itdidn't. And so that started the love
affair with, with real estate.
So now we gotta talk aboutbroker vma. This is the company you,
you own now. I think there's acouple of others too. We're gonna
have to find out about that.But broker VMA stands for valuation
and merger and acquisition. Soobviously one of the things that
(11:32):
in the world of real estate,the last thing people think about,
especially a layman, is gonnabe the fact that one day somebody
might sell that company orthey might want to acquire other
companies and, and even howthe recruiting works with all that.
It's such a behind the sceneskind of thing. Would you agree with
that?
Yes. In fact, one of. So mybest friend married a German and
he told me a story where hestarted his company as a nonprofit.
(11:56):
And about three years in,someone said to him, matthias, how
are you going to ever sell acompany that's a nonprofit? And,
and he thought, you know what,you're right. So he created a profit
arm and a nonprofit arm andended up selling it about 15 years
later for a nice price. And soyou're absolutely right, people,
when you first start out,you're just so confused about what
(12:19):
you're doing.
True.
That you just grow organicallyand try to figure things out. And
so what our company, Brokervma does is it says, okay, you've
now created something ofvalue. How do you then exit a winner
from that endeavor? Right. Howdo you exit in a way where you sell
to someone who shares yourvalues, is going to continue your
(12:40):
legacy and give you money forwhat you, what you made?
We talk about that, you know,at the, at the agent level. Right.
I mean they should be creatinga business. It's a much different
business than a brokerage, butthere's some piece of that that could
be transferred to somebodyelse for some money down the road.
Yeah, but look at, look atCompass where they're offering a
(13:02):
high powered aperture. Thesame, they're higher. They're offering
high powered real estate teamsand agents money to move to their
brand. Oh, definitely. Whenyou think about it, anything that
creates repeatable cash flowhas value.
Yeah, absolutely. Was there atthe time that you started this, your,
(13:23):
this company, was there aspecific need or gap or something
that you, you saw? Especiallybecause it might be, you know, I
know you work in both work allacross North America, but maybe did
it start in Canada first andthen get to the United States? How'd
that work?
It actually started in theStates first. So my business partner,
Wayne Einhorn, has been in thereal estate business since he was
(13:44):
about 16 years old. So he hasa large group of real estate brokers
that he coaches and he and Iwent to the NBA together. And so
in 22, he said to me, norma,he said, I've got all sorts of people
asking about valuations andmergers and acquisitions and, and
I'm so busy coaching, I can'tdeal with it. I, I'd really like
(14:04):
you to partner with me. And soover a couple of lunches and again,
he's a very humorous,entertaining person. I decided, you
know what, this sounds likesome fun. So that's when we started
Broker vma. And since then,Bill, we've done all sorts of valuations
for companies looking to sell.We've run sales processes for brokerages
(14:26):
who want to retire or exit.And we, and we've got a few clients
who love to buy. So we, weactually have two clients right now,
one in South Carolina, one inNew Jersey, who own over 30 different
franchises.
Wow. They like to buy.
And, and to, you know, when welook at the Compass anywhere merger,
(14:47):
you and I were chatting aboutit a little bit earlier, they're
very good at operating. Right.Like so many real Estate brokers
struggle to operate thebusiness because oftentimes they're
the best salesperson in theplace. And so they put out their
own shingle, attract people,but somebody who's great at sales
(15:07):
sometimes is not as good atsort of operations. And so being
able to operate these twofellows who bought so many locations,
they're very good operators.
Yeah, well, they, I'll bet youthey know the answer to this question
maybe as well as you do. I'mgonna, I wanna, I wanna know what
is the single most commonquestion that a real estate broker
(15:29):
owner asks you when they firstare thinking about this process?
There must be one question.You just go, I know this is coming.
Oh yeah, what is my businessworth? That is the most popular question,
Bill. And what they'll do isthey'll call me up and they'll say,
Norma, I've got 40 agents, I'min Tucson, Arizona. I have, you know,
250 or $300 million salesvolume. What am I worth? And I always
(15:53):
say, okay, I can give you arange, but to actually know what
you're worth, we need to do aproper valuation. So that is a very
common conversation. And I'vehad, I, thankfully, I think like
you, I really enjoy people andI especially like entrepreneurs.
And so I always enjoy thoseconversations and many of them lead
(16:16):
to a professional evaluationbeing done and then we run a sales
process for them.
I'm gonna, I'm not, not tryingto put you on the spot, but what
percentage of thoseconversations do you have an owner
that's, I'll just be, I'll sayit this way, slightly unrealistic.
Oh. So we had an interestingconversa. We had an interesting situation
a while back. So we had aFlorida brokerage and they had a
(16:39):
hundred agents and they were,they were very productive, independent.
And the owner, Bill, had hisson in law value the brokerage. The
problem was the son in law wasin tech. So of course tech companies
are valued based on their topline and it's a much higher multiple.
(17:00):
Whereas real estate brokeragesare valued based on their EBITDA
and a smaller multiple. So hehad told his father in law that the
business is worth at least $3million. And I had to deliver the
message that it was actuallyonly a million once I finished my
valuation. So that wasprobably the toughest conversation
(17:21):
that I had with an owner. Andhe was bitterly disappointed. And
I had to explain to him thatreal estate brokerages, they just,
you know, all your agents, theday after you sell can leave. So
they just don't have the samevalue in the same multiples as a
technology company. So, yeah,that was. Now, he ultimately ended
up selling for about 1.6million. So it worked out well. But.
(17:45):
But my value was sitting at amillion. So he, what he did is he
found a strategic buyer thatwas wanting to enter the Florida
marketplace. So it all workedout well.
Yeah, like anything beingsold, it's what someone willing to
pay ultimately, definitely.
And so when we do evaluation,we always say we're not doing it
as a listing document, we'renot doing it as a positioning document.
(18:08):
What we're trying to tell youis this is what we think it's worth
looking at both buyer andseller. And so it acts as sort of
a CIM for them when we then.And the other difficulty with selling
a brokerage, Bill, is youthink about it. If I own a brokerage
and I call you my competitorand I say, bill, are you interested
in buying my company? First ofall, you might say yes. Great. But
(18:32):
if you say no, then the nextday, potentially you're on the phone
with all my agents saying,norma's selling. You know, you may
want to come to my. You know,you may want to come to my place.
And so what we provide atbroker VMA is we give you that confidentiality
and that anonymity where youcan try out seven different properties
purchasers without knowanybody knowing who you are. So it's,
(18:56):
it's a valuable process. Forthat reason, it maintains that confidentiality,
which is critical because Iremember we, we dealt with a. A real
estate broker in Toronto. AndI always tease that if you wanted
everyone in the industry toknow what was going on by dinner
time, you told him atbreakfast something that you said
(19:17):
was a secret.
Oh, my. So the conversationswith that gentleman were few and
far between. I'm just guessing.
He was Irish, he was verycharming. He was lovely. But you
just knew if you told Kevin,this is a secret. Every single person
that you know in the industrywill know by dinner time.
(19:37):
That's great. I mean, I'mfascinated by your world because
it's such a unique there, youknow, there's not like thousands
of people running around doingwhat you do in the country, I would
guess.
No, we. So. So we broker vma.We do. Mark Lucas does some at rima.
Steve Murray does some over atReal Trends. And that's like, that's
(20:02):
sort of. Those are. The threeof us sort of do the bulk of it.
T360 is doing some as well,although they sort of act more as
a consultant technology piece.
Right.
But yeah, there's about threeor four of us that do it and we,
we all get along well becausethere's just so many, there's so
many potential clients. Right.There's, there's like 13, 14, 15,000
(20:24):
brokers with 25 or more agentsacross the, the U.S. and Canada at
least. And so there's, there'slots of business.
And it's, you know, youmentioned it before that more than
likely it's going to besomeone in the area that's going
to acquire and. Yes, and that,that would be the most common response.
But then you, you shared one,your other story. The gentleman who
(20:46):
was not happy with the truevaluation, he actually was able to
find someone who wanted toenter a market.
Oh, 100. So, so he, he sold toIAD and they're, you know, they're
a French company coming inwith a totally different model and
they, they don't have officesand they wanted a foothold in the
Florida marketplace. So Godbless both of them. The fact that
(21:08):
they found that win win. Butit's, it's interesting most of the
time if you're looking like ifyou, you know, you, I know you spent
a lot of time the San DiegoPadres, and I know now you're in,
in Florida and you've been inArizona and we've done business in
all three of those states.When you look at someone in Arizona,
for example, we recently didan independent that was bought that
(21:30):
we arranged to be purchased byEngel and Volkers. And it's, it's
perfect when it's a win win.Right. So you always want it to be
mutually beneficial on eachparty's side. And in this case, the
principles were so compatiblethat it was just easy. Right. They,
they met, we facilitated theintroduction, and when they got together,
(21:55):
they just connected. There wasthat compatibility right out of the
blocks. And so it makes it areally nice transaction because the
person selling receives theirmoney. They receive the ability to
sell at the new brokerage, andthe buyer expands their reach tremendously
and has the benefit of thelocal knowledge. So it was, it was,
(22:17):
it was a good transaction.
I know there are differences,you know, in the real estate world
between Canada and the U.S. right?
Yes.
One is the way our MLS systemin the U.S. is definitely a lot weirder
than something very uniformyou have in Canada, which, which
I would, I long for down here.How about in your world, in your
(22:37):
very specific world, are theredifferences between the countries
that you have to. Kind of.Obviously you have a lot of experience.
But early on, did you have tokind of figure that out?
Oh, I still have to figure itout. So Canada and the U.S. are different.
And one significant differenceis in the U.S. you guys do a fabulous
job of taking a real estatebrokerage and adding all sorts of
(22:59):
ancillary revenue sources toit. So that even if the brokerage
itself doesn't make money,your title, your mortgage, your relocation,
those make money. And, andthat's, that's a brilliant way to
bundle things because as youand I know, if you control the customer,
then you're able to controlthe revenue source for those ancillary
(23:22):
services. In Canada, it's muchmore, more regulated and we are not
able to do that.
Ah, so there are some negative things.
Oh yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm avery proud Canadian. I, I, you know,
I bleed red and white. I, Iabsolutely love our country. I feel
(23:42):
very fortunate to live here.Sudbury, as you and I said, has,
you know, 330 lakes. It hasall sorts of forests, as you mentioned.
You were out to Vancouver andAlberta. It's spectacular, right?
The, the country isspectacular. That being said, I'm
a huge fan of America as well.I have, I have a client in Wyoming.
We just did a phenomenaltransaction for the Prescott's in
(24:05):
Wyoming. Salsa. The earthpeople, they live in a beautiful
part of the world. Their son'splaying varsity football at college
and we found them a buyer whoshared their, their values of family
and faith. And so it's like aperfect connection. And I adore them,
so, and, and I love the partof the world they live in. We have
another client in WashingtonState. It's just, I'm, we are so
(24:29):
lucky to live in North Americalike it is. It is so vast and so
full of wilderness and so fullof places you can just sort of get
away.
The way you talk about yourbusiness, first of all, I know you
love what you do, but therehave to be, there had to be a time
where you said, no, we don'treally fit. We don't, we can't work
(24:50):
together.
Has that happened? Yes, ithas. It's usually when. So we always
strive for win, win and sortof mutually beneficial. And that
may come from the mediation Idid as a family lawyer. I don't know,
it's, it's. But I alwaysfigured that this isn't like I'm
(25:10):
trying to sell you a used carbill and then run away, right? It's,
it's a long term relationship.So. The Prescott's, for example,
they sold to Dennis Schick andChad Ochner. Well, they're going
to be together for at leastthe next three years because the
Prescott's going to continueto sell. You know, Dennis and Chad
are going to be running.They're going to be moved their,
(25:32):
their head office to Wyoming.So it's a relationship. It's. It's
a three minimum, three yearrelationship. And so if you aren't
in it for a mutuallybeneficial deal, if you're trying
to pull one over on someone,then we, we can't help you because
it just doesn't work. Right.You, you, you try to screw somebody
(25:54):
and it's just, it's just avery negative type of transaction.
So, yes, we have, we haveturned people away when they did
not appreciate that it's intheir best interest for the deal
to be mutually beneficial.
Yeah, no, I, I mean, I, I rana. I ran an escrow branch for 10
years and I turned. Usually itwas an investor doing something shady,
(26:16):
but, you know. Yeah, well,they just don't play by the rules
or just don't understand, youknow, that there are, that there
are things you have to do andthings you can't do and you have
to say no. And that's weirdbecause that's turning away potential
revenue, potential referrals,all kinds of stuff. But ultimately,
I, I kind of thought you wouldbe the same way.
Well, it, it's, It. I think itgoes back to that whole good people.
(26:41):
You want to do business withgood people. Right? You want. I,
I mean, I, I love my businesspartner. He's. He's one of my best
friends. He's a good person.And, and so it's a pleasure to work
with them. And you, you, youwant to raise good people. You have
a son in D.C. i have four.Four kids. I have two boys and two
girls. Like, you want them tobe good people. You want to be kind
(27:02):
and good and try to make theworld a better place, because those
are the people you want tospend time with.
Norma, this has been amazing.I knew this was going to be a great
episode. So is it Katarina whohelped us connect?
Yes. Okay.
Yeah. So you should give hermy thanks. This is what.
I thanked her already. I'llthank her for you, too.
(27:23):
Great. So this is the samequestion I've asked every guest since
Jay Thompson back in 2015.Jay's an interesting character, good
guy, and it's, It's. You're.Even though you're not a practicing
realtor, I'm going to guessyou have a great Answer for this
question. That is, what onepiece of advice would you give a
new agent? Just get enrollingin the business.
So I love that you end withthe same question every time, like
(27:46):
in 10 years. The consistencyis quite impressive.
Yeah.
So my, my, from what I see andfrom valuing so many real estate
brokerages and getting a senseof what agents are the most valuable,
it's about expertise, it'sabout a specialty. So if you think
about it, what do you, ifyou're getting into the business
(28:08):
and I know a couple of youngerpeople who are, I think the way to
look at it is, okay, what do Iknow best? Am I a former hockey player
and I know lots ofprofessional hockey players. Am I
so familiar with theneighborhood that I can tell you,
every bakery, every butcher,every tea shop, every, you know,
every place there. Is there amortgage lender that I'm close to
(28:30):
who's going to send me allsorts of power sale clients? Is there
a new home builder that I knowwell and I can sell his lots? Is
there an ethnic community thatI'm part of that I know intimately?
And, and to me, it's thatlevel of expertise and intimacy with
a neighborhood Bill, where youcan become the go to person for that
(28:51):
neighborhood. Because as, aswe know with real estate, it's so
local, right. It's so focusedon the corner of Maine and State.
It's, it's, you know, it'swhere it's what you know and what
you know intimately and betterthan somebody else that I think gives
you a tremendous advantage. Sothat, that is my humble advice.
(29:13):
It, it may be the first personto be that specific about that answer.
I'm always, you know, that'spretty cool because it's hard, it's
hard to come up with somethingdifferent after 400 plus responses.
But that's awesome. Norma, ifsomebody wants to reach out to you,
what's the best way for themto do that?
So brokervma.com is ourwebsite and all my contact information
(29:34):
is on there.
Great. Well, look, continuedsuccess to your children and to you
and your family. I mean, it's,I am so excited for you. Slightly
jealous as well that you havea couple of boys playing at the level
they're playing at. I'm sureyour daughters are fantastic in volleyball
as well. This has beenwonderful and thank you so much for
(29:55):
finding some time this morningand I appreciate you very much.
Can I say go Js?
Yes, you can.
And hopefully by the time thisairs, we will have won three in a
row.
Fingers crossed. Thanks, Norma.
Thank you very much, Bill.
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