May 8, 2025 • 26 mins
In this special episode of The Real Santa Fe podcast, Bunny Terry sits down with New York Times bestselling author Anne Hillerman to discuss her latest gripping novel, Shadow of the Solstice, the newest installment in the beloved Leaphorn, Chee, and Manuelito mystery series. Anne shares the real-life events that inspired her plot—from billion-dollar Medicaid fraud scandals to revivalist cults on the Navajo Nation—and the deep research and cultural sensitivity behind her storytelling.
Anne also offers behind-the-scenes insight into the acclaimed AMC show Dark Winds, based on her father Tony Hillerman’s iconic characters, and talks about what it’s like seeing her work brought to life on screen. If you're a fan of Navajo Nation mysteries, Santa Fe landscapes, crime fiction with heart, or strong female leads like Bernadette Manuelito, this episode is a must-listen.
📚 Learn about Anne's writing process, the true history that shapes her stories, and why the Southwest continues to inspire some of the most vivid characters in modern mystery writing.
🔗 Mentioned:
Anne's website: https://www.annehillerman.com/
Anne's upcoming events: https://www.annehillerman.com/events
🎧 Tune in and stay curious—this is The Real Santa Fe.
Original Music by: Kene Terry
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to the Real Santa Fe podcast. We're so
excited that you're here for anepisode with one of my favorite
Santa Fe people. And I'mtelling you, if this isn't real
Santa Fe, I don't know what isAnn Hillerman, who's one of my
favorite authors, has agreed tobe on the podcast with us
(00:24):
again. I, I couldn't believe itwhen you agreed the first time,
Anne . So this is, it's alwaysa treat, and it seems like
every time we do this, we areintroducing a new book that
she's just published. I countedon in the book that this is
number 14. Um, Ann is , uh, awriter of many things, but her
(00:47):
latest book is Shadow of theSolstice. It's yet another
installment in What, what ourgreat friend Bernie and her
sweetheart, she , um, at leastin book form, they're not there
yet on Dark Winds. I keepwaiting, but Ann is the author.
(01:09):
She's also one of the executiveproducers of Dark Winds, which
is one of the most popular ,um, series on streaming on TV
right now. And I, I could talkfor a long time, but the most
interesting person in the roomis Anne . So, hello. I'm so
happy you're here.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Hi, me too. Thank you so much for giving me a
chance to talk about my newbaby. I'm just so happy to have
this book finally out so peoplecan read it.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I know that we , uh, maybe it was a couple months
ago, back around Christmas, Isaid, can we get together? And
you're like, I'm finishing thisbook. It's a process, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Indeed, and particularly this book was a
little more complicated than ,uh, a lot of my books have
been. Usually when I'm writinga book, I start with the
scenery, but with this book,there were a couple things in
the news that really got myattention. So I started with
those, those giant ideas, andthen had to kind of condense
(02:09):
them into enough that would bea , a plot and a subplot for a
book. And , uh, then when I gotit sort of put together, I
realized that even though thosetwo stories were really good,
it was hard to mesh themtogether. But luckily I had a
really good editor who helpedme with it. And yeah, now that
(02:30):
it's, now that it's , that it'shere, I'm, I'm really happy
with it. So, so thank you forgiving me a chance to talk
about it.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh, I gotta tell you, I, so , um, my husband who
reads mysteries as well, said,well , tell me about the , he
said, I can tell you're reallyenthralled with this one. And I
said, you know, the thing aboutreading , um, a Hillerman book
First, first, your dads that Iread for years , um, especially
when I wasn't , when I wasliving away from New Mexico ,
(02:57):
um, it's always, and thenyours, it's always like
stepping back into the roomwith some of your favorite
people. And I was, you are sogood at conveying your
characters, and, and they're,they're so vivid and they're so
real. And so, I , I said, it'sso exciting. I'm, I'm like, I'm
(03:18):
hanging out again with Bernieand Chi , and Darlene is sober
now. It's so . It'slike all these things that
were, I don't wanna giveeverything away, but there were
parts of it that, and I didn'tof course, read at the end
whether where , where thoseplot lines came from, but I
kept saying, especially the ,um, the plot line where Mrs.
(03:40):
Raymond ends up in Phoenix. Iwas like, can this be real? And
because it was so , um, soawful. And that's why I
couldn't stop reading because Icouldn't, I couldn not stand
for those, for those charactersto be in any sort of danger.
But I know they're always gonnabe in danger because that's
(04:01):
. That's, that's wherewe end up. But thank you for
this one. I really liked it.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Well, you know, bunny , one good thing about
writing a series is thatreaders, readers may have that
same sense of apprehension thatyou had. Are these characters
gonna be all right ? But youkind of know if this is like
this one book 10 and the seriesthat chances are they're gonna
be okay and they're gonna makeit through for book 12. So, I ,
I have to say, I, I really lovethese characters. And the more
(04:29):
I , Jim Chi and Joe Lipor werecharacters that my dad had
developed pretty firmly beforehe , uh, passed on. And then I
began to write the series. ButBernadette Manto was a
character he had kind of usedas a adjunct, as a walkon. I
mean, she, and so when I beganwriting the series, I elevated
(04:52):
her to be a, a full fledgedcrime solver. So that gave me
the , uh, challenge, I wasgonna say problem, but mostly
challenge of having to think ofways to engage all three of
them. And in this, in this book, uh, Joe Lepor is kind of, he
comes in a little bit, but hebasically gets rest. 'cause he
worked real hard in the bookbefore this. So , uh, when the
(05:15):
book opens , um, Jim Chi islooking into the discovery of a
body that has been found in a ,at a uranium waste dump site .
And Bernie gets a call to goout on the Navajo Nation to
this , uh, uh, this Navajocouple has a site where they
host revival meetings, but thistime they've , uh, opened it up
(05:37):
to, not Navajo people, but abunch of outsiders. And they
tell 'em, oh, we're gonna do ameditation. You know, we're all
about love and peace andhealing mother earth, but then
things start to go wrong. Andso Bernie goes out to
investigate that. And , uh, inthis book I was able to use ,
uh, who had a woman who hadbeen a minor character, Darlene
(06:00):
Mato, Bernie's sister, as moreof a main character. So when
this book opens , uh, Darlenehas decided , uh, that she's, I
think she decided in the lastbook that she's going to become
a nurse. So she's going to, toschool to get her n get her
nursing certificate. And aspart of that, she has a job as
a home health aide . So Darlenegoes to check on the lady who
(06:23):
she's helping, and the ladyisn't there. So that's like the
, the third part of thismystery. So it was great fun
weaving in all these elements.
But like I said, when I got tothe end, I realized I had some
loose threads, but thankgoodness that I had some good
editors, and they pulledeverything together and it
really made the book strongerthan it was when I first
(06:46):
imagined it.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, this one was , I mean, they're all
suspenseful, but this one withthe added piece of the , the
storyline that involves Darleneand the woman she was caring
for who disappeared, and herson, and some, perhaps some ,
um, um, um, I , the word Ithought of was shenanigans.
It's not she shenanigans it'spotential fraud, but , um, the
(07:09):
things that people are doing toexploit native people , um, uh,
that piece of, I mean, I likedall of it, but that piece of
it, I just kept thinking,where, what , uh, what is going
on? Um , it that was socompelling.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Well, I have to say, I mean, that was based on real
life , unfortunately. No, therewas a huge scandal in Arizona ,
uh, just, just like in mystory, A lot of unsuspecting
people who were having troublewith drugs and alcohol were
basically kidnapped and takento Phoenix and signed up as
(07:47):
Arizona residents, so thesefraudsters could steal their
Medicaid benefits. And thenthey were housed, get fed, but
never given any treatment. Andsome of them, when they
realized what was up, said,wait a minute, you know, we
need to go home now. And thepeople said, sorry, that wasn't
part of the deal, and just leftthem out on the street. So then
(08:09):
they were homeless in a, in abig city, it was really, really
awful. Like $2 billion of fraudand 40 people or more died as ,
as part of this. And that'sjust what we know about. I
mean, I'm sure a lot of themwere homeless, didn't have any
, any identification, and theirbodies are still probably
unclaimed somewhere. Anyway,what really caught my attention
(08:32):
about this story was that theNavajo Nation , uh, when, when
their residents would come andsay , you know, what happened
to my cousin? What happened tomy nephew? I've been looking
all over for them. Uh, then theNavajo Police , uh, went to
Phoenix and helped bring someof these people home. And so I
thought, well, this is really alovely ending, or at least a
(08:54):
lovely start of an ending to avery awful story. And as you
know, I, and one of the goodthings about writing mysteries
is that you as a mystery writerhave the , uh, sickly the duty
as part of the way the genre isset up of ending things with
the crime solved , and the badguys punished her . And so I
(09:15):
was happy, even though itdoesn't always work out like,
like that in real life, I wasreally delighted to be able to
do that in my book.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Well, and you did this, you did that. You did it
so well, and , um, and , and Iwas so relieved when I got to
the part where you talked abouthow those people were
prosecuted for this real lifeevent. I was telling Toby about
it, and he said, well, thatcan't be the truth. And I'm
like, no, it is . But you didthat in Lost Birds as well. I
(09:46):
mean, when you, I mean, that isa another horrific , um, event
in , in Navajo history. I , Imean, other tribes I'm sure as
well, and Pueblos, wherechildren were basically taken
away from their families andthe families were lied to, and
then they were sold elsewhereinto other families all over
(10:09):
the country. And you, you didthat, you covered that one very
well. So kudos to you. I, Ilove, I know that when I'm
reading one of your books,you're hitting on something
that's important and, and, andyou do it really well, so, oh ,
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well, thank you. You know, one thing that as a
reader, when I am readingfiction, I love having a story
that moves along and havingcharacters that engage me, but
I also like books that teach mesomething. And so that's one of
my , uh, I guess you'd saysubversive goals when I'm, when
I'm writing my books. And Ialso , uh, like to explore my
(10:47):
own curiosity and learnsomething in the process of
researching the story. So I,that's what sustains me as a
writer, and I hope that's whatis, is , uh, keeping my readers
engaged too
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Well, and I does is that part of, I mean, it feels
like that's what dad did aswell when he started his, how
many books did he write beforehe passed away? How , how many
are in that ? He wrote ,
Speaker 3 (11:10):
He wrote , uh, 17 in the Jolie porn , Jim Chi
series. He wrote two standalonenovels. He wrote a whole bunch
of nonfiction. He was a realgo-getter. And it's amazing to
think he wrote all those books.
He had a , for most of hislife, he had a full-time job
either as a journalist or as acollege teacher. And he raised
(11:31):
us six kids. So, you know, if Iever start feeling sorry for
myself, I think, well, hey , who's my role model
here. Yeah, of
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Course,
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I had my mother, and my mother was brilliant. She
took care of every detail oflife, so dad didn't have to
worry about it. So, so I don'tfeel too guilty if I have to
take a day off
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And, and I want to speak because we can't assume
that everybody who's listeningknows all about you or your dad
or, but you , um, he wasrecognized and , and I, and I,
and you have been too, forbeing very true to the Navajo
culture. I mean, you're not anoutsider who came in and just
(12:10):
made up, you know, if you, you, um, you both have immersed
yourself in the culture. Andthe coolest thing is that I
learned a lot of new Navajowords , um, and, and there is a
glossary in the back. But , um,tell me about that. Tell me
about the relationship you havewith that group of people with
(12:30):
that tribe.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Um, that was really one of the real gifts that my
dad gave me. He had built suchgoodwill with, with the Navajo
people over the years, hisyears of writing the stories
that when I decided maybe Icould continue this series and
I would have a question to ask,whoever I asked was always very
(12:54):
gracious and forthcoming withme. And sometimes , uh, the
answer was , uh, you reallyshouldn't talk about that. And
that was fine. I mean, then Ipulled back, and I think that
maybe is, I don't think my dadgot that answer so much. You
know, times have changed since1970 when dad began that
series. But one thing thatmakes me really happy, if, if
(13:15):
ever I'm doing a talk, oh , sayin Farmington at the Farmington
Public Library , um, last timeI did a talk there, maybe a
third of the audience wereNavajo people, and they had a
lot of really good questions.
And then afterwards , uh, saythe, a Navajo grandmother and
the daughter and thegranddaughter all came up and
(13:36):
they had me sign their books,and then they said, oh, well ,
we'd like to get a picturetaken with you. I felt like I
was a , an honor and celebrity.
And then the grandmother said,you know, I love your dad's
books, but I think it's abouttime somebody realized how
strong we Navajo women are. SoI thought
Speaker 2 (13:51):
love that
Speaker 3 (13:53):
For saying that.
Yeah. Yeah. I loved it too.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
That's, that's great. And can you give people
that don't know someperspective on the size of the
Navajo Nation? And I , I mean,what it really is is like for
the, the Navajo Police force totry to cover that,
Speaker 3 (14:14):
It's, it's a , a very , uh, complicated and
dangerous job. The NavajoNation is about the size of New
England, and I think there are, I'm saying this from memory,
and I'm, I haven't looked it uplately, but there are something
like a hundred officers who arecovering this whole area. It's
divided into five different ,uh, subdistricts. And I mean,
(14:36):
those officers, some are patrolofficers like my Bernie Manto,
but you know, some aredetectives, some are guys who
specialize, say, in , uh,crimes Against Children. I
mean, they have all of the, thedepartments or a lot of the
departments that say an urbanpolice force would have, but
just not the funding and notthe staff. And I think it's
(14:57):
remarkable that they do as, asfabulous a job as they do. I'm,
I'm real , my hats are off tothem, or my hat is off to them,
, or in fact , twohats, they both be off to them.
It's,
Speaker 2 (15:08):
You know, I know I lived in Farmington, and so I
know that country, but it'll belike, Bernie gets in the car
and she's going somewhere to dosomething, and it's a long
drive. And I'm thinking, yes,it is. It's like, it could be
an hour or two to get to theplaces that she's describing on
dirt roads, perhaps withoutcell service. That's ,
Speaker 3 (15:30):
And then she gets there and she's dealing with a,
say a , a dangerous person, youknow? So maybe somebody who is,
has some, some mental healthproblems or has had too much to
drink, and she's basically byherself. So she has to use, she
has to use her common sense.
You know, she can't just like,you know, pull out, pull out
(15:50):
her gun and threaten to shootthe sky . She's got to have
that kind of compassion andsense of, I , I mean, there was
a lot of talk about communitypolicing, and I think the
Navajo Nation is kind of the,the macrocosm of community
policing. You know, a lot oftimes when, when they would go
out to a call, chances are theperson who is, who needs help
(16:11):
is somebody who's related tothem or related to somebody
they know. So it's a littledifferent than just dealing
with a , a stranger who's outof control. So that, I mean,
and , and in a way it makes iteasier for me as a writer,
because I don't have to dealwith all of this fabulous
technology now that policedepartments have. It's kind of
(16:31):
like going back in time a fewyears to deal with something
that's a little more basic anda little more of the, I guess
you could say, the humanelement of solving crimes. You
know, in , instead of callingup a national database, you
just think, what do I knowabout this guy? And what can I
figure out from his bodylanguage or from the way he's
talking, or from the way hishouse looks? So anyway, I never
(16:55):
so much enjoying enjoyingwriting , writing this series.
Do you think we can talk aboutDark Wind for a minute or
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Two? Yes. I, that's what I wanted to segue into
that by saying, of course, inDark Winds, they had no cell
phones . And is it the funnest,I mean, it's so much fun, it's
so smart. Are I, I don'trecall. And and tell me if I'm
wrong, were you an executiveproducer in the first series ,
in the first , um, season? Youhave been for Forever
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Have been the only , I have to say, while I would
love to take credit for howwonderful the show is, the only
thing I actually produced wasmy signature on the contract,
which gave them right to usemy, use my dad's stories, and
to use the, the first four ofmy books in the, in the series.
But yeah, I, I'm reallythrilled with it. I think , uh,
(17:47):
I think they were so smart. Thecasting, I think is, is just
really, really right on. Andthen the fact that they have
incorporated so many nativepeople in the, in the writer's
room as directors justeverywhere on , everywhere on
the set, I've been lucky enoughto , uh, uh, be able to watch
some of the filming. And it'sjust so uplifting to see, to
(18:12):
see such wonderful peopleworking on such a wonderful
show. They had some internsfrom the Institute , Institute
of American Indian Arts whowere working with them. They've
really done a fine job ofreaching out to the, to the
native community. So I am, Igive him a two big thumbs up,
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So I keep hearing , um, I , I mean, I think
everybody's brilliant. I keephearing that. And , and I'm
not, I'm not done yet withseason three. I'm this close,
but I keep hearing and seeingthat everybody's like, oh, Z
McLaren, he's up. He's, he'sgotta get an Emmy this year.
It's so amazing. It's such, Imean, the acting is , um, is so
(18:51):
good. And the directing, I'm ,I'm good friends with Chris.
Um, he's, Chris Air is aneighbor of mine, and I'm these
guys, they've got it. I mean,it's, it's so good. And I loved
the little piece where , um,Robert Redford and George RR
had cameos in the jail. I mean,if you guys haven't seen Dark
(19:13):
Winds, you've gotta turn it onright now and watch it from the
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Beginning. We'll wait till our
Speaker 2 (19:17):
They what?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Wait till our interview's over and turn it
on.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Oh, absolutely not yet. Yes. Not yet, but I'm, I'm
so what I , I know that Johannawas so good to create this,
this , um, outline, but I wasreally interested to know, is
there anything that they, thathas appeared in Dark Wind that
you've been like, oh , I knowexact , that's exactly the way
(19:44):
it should have been. That'sexactly the way my dad, or I,
it just thinks , I'm wonderingif there's some part of it
where you just had this ahamoment. It was like, boy, did
they nail that?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Oh, yeah. In the, in the very first season where
they, they introduced Jim Chiand I , I wasn't, I, I wasn't
so thrilled with, with the JimChi in the first season, but
they, when he comes in,Bernadette Manto gets to be his
boss. And I think, okay, thisis , this is my Bernie
, this is great. There's a , a, i , I love the way they
(20:17):
incorporated the landscapeinto, into the filming. A lot
of what happens in my books andin dad's books is time where
one of the characters isdriving in a car, and they're
thinking, and when you'rewriting a book, you can get
away with that, but you cannotget away with that on , in a TV
show. You know, something hasto be happening. So I think
(20:38):
they've done just a marvelousjob of kind of using the , the
books of Dads that they've usedso far as inspiration and then
moving the stories forward fromthere. So I'm, I'm really
thrilled with it.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I'm so excited to see what happens. And, and
they're filming season four.
Have you been out to watch anyof that?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I haven't had a chance to. Not yet. It's, I did
get to watch the , the very,very last scene of season
three, though. And oh , my, thewind was blowing. It had ,
there's horses in it. Thehorses weren't cooperating,
like all kinds of things. Oh .
Then it started to rain andthey had to any , anyway, it
was maybe three hours or maybefour. It was forever. And
(21:20):
finally we see the scene, theyfilm it, and , uh, then Chris
Ayers calls me over and hesays, you know, look at this.
And I got to see it rightthrough his, the, the, the way
it was gonna look in the final.
And it was, it was perfect. AndI thought, gee, they say so
much just with an expression.
And then I thought, golly, I'mglad I'm not in the TV
(21:44):
business, because I could writethe scene in like two. I mean,
it might not be as , as asemotional, but it would be the
same scene in like twoparagraphs, you know? So it
gave me great, great respectfor the, the talent and the
creativity that, that thoseactors and directors and
everybody involved with. Ithas,
Speaker 2 (22:04):
It's so exciting.
And I want folks to know thatif you're, I mean, it's, it's
filmed primarily here. I don't,I , um, I mean, and , uh, but
if you're driving north on theroad between Santa Fe and Pake
, and you look over at the ,um, um, at the , um, oh my
gosh, why Camel Rock , the OldCamel Rock Casino? You'll see
(22:25):
all of those old vehicles fromthe seventies that they're
using. It's, it's, Johanna andI are gonna have to go up and
just do a little YouTube, alittle reel of all those
vehicles sitting there. 'causeit's so cool to see all those ,
um, vehicles from, you know,when I was a little girl
sitting out there on the set.
It's so fun in that back lot.
(22:46):
So it's here, they're doing it.
It's so cool. Yeah . So what'snext? First of all, where can
people find the new book?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Um, I did a , I did the book launch at Collected
Works , and they have a lot ofsigned copies. Um, on a
Saturday I'm going to Barnesand Noble. I'm, I , I am going
to do a little talk about mybook, and I'll have some signed
books there. And then I'm doingAlbuquerque, Durango Prescott,
(23:17):
and then I'm coming back toSanta Fe back to back to Public
Attention in Santa Fe on May17th. I'm doing an event with
Nassario Garcia and a Navajopoet named , uh, AYA Vanaya
Yazi , uh, for the, for theSchool of the Dance Research.
And , uh, if anybody wants to,wants to know about that, they
(23:37):
can just look on the SARwebsite. And all my events are
on my website too. It's justanne hillerman.com, so.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Perfect. Perfect.
And , um, what do , what do youwant , uh, what do you want
folks to get from this book?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
That's a really good question. I think one of the
themes in this book is thatthings aren't always as they
seem, and people who seempretty dark maybe can change.
And people on the, on the otherhand, people, some people can
seem like they're all light androses and they really aren't.
And I guess the, maybe thebottom line is that in the end,
(24:20):
if we all take care of eachother, things are gonna work
out okay. I mean, that's whathappens in the , uh, the, the
cult Gone Wrong story. And thatcertainly is what happens in
the, the sober living , uh,Darlene to the rescue story, I
guess be , be a do not despair.
Keep, keep your optimism tunedup . I think that , I think
that's the message.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Do not despair. I love that. Are you working on
something new?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yeah, I'm working on book 11. It's going to be set
at Kenya of , of the Berniestores . It's gonna be set at
Kenya Dee . So after , afterDurango, I'm gonna detour and
do another, another. At leastlook at the overlooks at Kenya
Dee before I go to Prescott.
So,
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Well, Anne , once again, we, we've, we could talk
for another hour and a halfabout all of these. I, I want
folks to know that Anne is soamazing at her craft, but also
so generous and so kind. I'vegone now to a number of your
readings, and I'm always struckby how you are just as curious
(25:26):
about the people you aremeeting as they are about you.
And that's really a huge giftto give that to your readers.
So thank you for doing thatand, and your stories . I , I
mean, they make us think, theymake us feel , but most of all,
it makes me really proud to besomebody who has lived in the
Southwest. Always. You, youportray it so beautifully. You
(25:49):
it, and, and its people sobeautifully. So thank you for
doing that.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Oh , thank you. I have to say, living in, having
lived in Santa Fe for more than40 years, I think has really
nurtured my spirit. There'sjust something about this place
that makes it okay to takechances with your creative
energy, and I very, very muchappreciate that.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I can't say anything else after that. Take care to
everybody who's listening. Besure to grab a copy of Shadow
of the Solstice Stream DarkWinds for sure. 'cause you're
gonna be sorry if you don't,and don't forget to support
your local independentbookstore. I bought my copy at
Collected Works . This is theReal Santa Fe podcast. Until
(26:34):
next time, be well, and staycurious.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to the Real Santa Fe podcast. We're so
excited that you're here for anepisode with one of my favorite
Santa Fe people. And I'mtelling you, if this isn't real
Santa Fe, I don't know what isAnn Hillerman, who's one of my
favorite authors, has agreed tobe on the podcast with us
(00:24):
again. I, I couldn't believe itwhen you agreed the first time,
Anne . So this is, it's alwaysa treat, and it seems like
every time we do this, we areintroducing a new book that
she's just published. I countedon in the book that this is
number 14. Um, Ann is , uh, awriter of many things, but her
(00:47):
latest book is Shadow of theSolstice. It's yet another
installment in What, what ourgreat friend Bernie and her
sweetheart, she , um, at leastin book form, they're not there
yet on Dark Winds. I keepwaiting, but Ann is the author.
(01:09):
She's also one of the executiveproducers of Dark Winds, which
is one of the most popular ,um, series on streaming on TV
right now. And I, I could talkfor a long time, but the most
interesting person in the roomis Anne . So, hello. I'm so
happy you're here.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Hi, me too. Thank you so much for giving me a
chance to talk about my newbaby. I'm just so happy to have
this book finally out so peoplecan read it.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I know that we , uh, maybe it was a couple months
ago, back around Christmas, Isaid, can we get together? And
you're like, I'm finishing thisbook. It's a process, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Indeed, and particularly this book was a
little more complicated than ,uh, a lot of my books have
been. Usually when I'm writinga book, I start with the
scenery, but with this book,there were a couple things in
the news that really got myattention. So I started with
those, those giant ideas, andthen had to kind of condense
(02:09):
them into enough that would bea , a plot and a subplot for a
book. And , uh, then when I gotit sort of put together, I
realized that even though thosetwo stories were really good,
it was hard to mesh themtogether. But luckily I had a
really good editor who helpedme with it. And yeah, now that
(02:30):
it's, now that it's , that it'shere, I'm, I'm really happy
with it. So, so thank you forgiving me a chance to talk
about it.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh, I gotta tell you, I, so , um, my husband who
reads mysteries as well, said,well , tell me about the , he
said, I can tell you're reallyenthralled with this one. And I
said, you know, the thing aboutreading , um, a Hillerman book
First, first, your dads that Iread for years , um, especially
when I wasn't , when I wasliving away from New Mexico ,
(02:57):
um, it's always, and thenyours, it's always like
stepping back into the roomwith some of your favorite
people. And I was, you are sogood at conveying your
characters, and, and they're,they're so vivid and they're so
real. And so, I , I said, it'sso exciting. I'm, I'm like, I'm
(03:18):
hanging out again with Bernieand Chi , and Darlene is sober
now. It's so
were, I don't wanna giveeverything away, but there were
parts of it that, and I didn'tof course, read at the end
whether where , where thoseplot lines came from, but I
kept saying, especially the ,um, the plot line where Mrs.
(03:40):
Raymond ends up in Phoenix. Iwas like, can this be real? And
because it was so , um, soawful. And that's why I
couldn't stop reading because Icouldn't, I couldn not stand
for those, for those charactersto be in any sort of danger.
But I know they're always gonnabe in danger because that's
(04:01):
this one. I really liked it.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Well, you know, bunny , one good thing about
writing a series is thatreaders, readers may have that
same sense of apprehension thatyou had. Are these characters
gonna be all right ? But youkind of know if this is like
this one book 10 and the seriesthat chances are they're gonna
be okay and they're gonna makeit through for book 12. So, I ,
I have to say, I, I really lovethese characters. And the more
(04:29):
I , Jim Chi and Joe Lipor werecharacters that my dad had
developed pretty firmly beforehe , uh, passed on. And then I
began to write the series. ButBernadette Manto was a
character he had kind of usedas a adjunct, as a walkon. I
mean, she, and so when I beganwriting the series, I elevated
(04:52):
her to be a, a full fledgedcrime solver. So that gave me
the , uh, challenge, I wasgonna say problem, but mostly
challenge of having to think ofways to engage all three of
them. And in this, in this book, uh, Joe Lepor is kind of, he
comes in a little bit, but hebasically gets rest. 'cause he
worked real hard in the bookbefore this. So , uh, when the
(05:15):
book opens , um, Jim Chi islooking into the discovery of a
body that has been found in a ,at a uranium waste dump site .
And Bernie gets a call to goout on the Navajo Nation to
this , uh, uh, this Navajocouple has a site where they
host revival meetings, but thistime they've , uh, opened it up
(05:37):
to, not Navajo people, but abunch of outsiders. And they
tell 'em, oh, we're gonna do ameditation. You know, we're all
about love and peace andhealing mother earth, but then
things start to go wrong. Andso Bernie goes out to
investigate that. And , uh, inthis book I was able to use ,
uh, who had a woman who hadbeen a minor character, Darlene
(06:00):
Mato, Bernie's sister, as moreof a main character. So when
this book opens , uh, Darlenehas decided , uh, that she's, I
think she decided in the lastbook that she's going to become
a nurse. So she's going to, toschool to get her n get her
nursing certificate. And aspart of that, she has a job as
a home health aide . So Darlenegoes to check on the lady who
(06:23):
she's helping, and the ladyisn't there. So that's like the
, the third part of thismystery. So it was great fun
weaving in all these elements.
But like I said, when I got tothe end, I realized I had some
loose threads, but thankgoodness that I had some good
editors, and they pulledeverything together and it
really made the book strongerthan it was when I first
(06:46):
imagined it.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, this one was , I mean, they're all
suspenseful, but this one withthe added piece of the , the
storyline that involves Darleneand the woman she was caring
for who disappeared, and herson, and some, perhaps some ,
um, um, um, I , the word Ithought of was shenanigans.
It's not she shenanigans it'spotential fraud, but , um, the
(07:09):
things that people are doing toexploit native people , um, uh,
that piece of, I mean, I likedall of it, but that piece of
it, I just kept thinking,where, what , uh, what is going
on? Um , it that was socompelling.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Well, I have to say, I mean, that was based on real
life , unfortunately. No, therewas a huge scandal in Arizona ,
uh, just, just like in mystory, A lot of unsuspecting
people who were having troublewith drugs and alcohol were
basically kidnapped and takento Phoenix and signed up as
(07:47):
Arizona residents, so thesefraudsters could steal their
Medicaid benefits. And thenthey were housed, get fed, but
never given any treatment. Andsome of them, when they
realized what was up, said,wait a minute, you know, we
need to go home now. And thepeople said, sorry, that wasn't
part of the deal, and just leftthem out on the street. So then
(08:09):
they were homeless in a, in abig city, it was really, really
awful. Like $2 billion of fraudand 40 people or more died as ,
as part of this. And that'sjust what we know about. I
mean, I'm sure a lot of themwere homeless, didn't have any
, any identification, and theirbodies are still probably
unclaimed somewhere. Anyway,what really caught my attention
(08:32):
about this story was that theNavajo Nation , uh, when, when
their residents would come andsay , you know, what happened
to my cousin? What happened tomy nephew? I've been looking
all over for them. Uh, then theNavajo Police , uh, went to
Phoenix and helped bring someof these people home. And so I
thought, well, this is really alovely ending, or at least a
(08:54):
lovely start of an ending to avery awful story. And as you
know, I, and one of the goodthings about writing mysteries
is that you as a mystery writerhave the , uh, sickly the duty
as part of the way the genre isset up of ending things with
the crime solved , and the badguys punished her . And so I
(09:15):
was happy, even though itdoesn't always work out like,
like that in real life, I wasreally delighted to be able to
do that in my book.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Well, and you did this, you did that. You did it
so well, and , um, and , and Iwas so relieved when I got to
the part where you talked abouthow those people were
prosecuted for this real lifeevent. I was telling Toby about
it, and he said, well, thatcan't be the truth. And I'm
like, no, it is . But you didthat in Lost Birds as well. I
(09:46):
mean, when you, I mean, that isa another horrific , um, event
in , in Navajo history. I , Imean, other tribes I'm sure as
well, and Pueblos, wherechildren were basically taken
away from their families andthe families were lied to, and
then they were sold elsewhereinto other families all over
(10:09):
the country. And you, you didthat, you covered that one very
well. So kudos to you. I, Ilove, I know that when I'm
reading one of your books,you're hitting on something
that's important and, and, andyou do it really well, so, oh ,
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well, thank you. You know, one thing that as a
reader, when I am readingfiction, I love having a story
that moves along and havingcharacters that engage me, but
I also like books that teach mesomething. And so that's one of
my , uh, I guess you'd saysubversive goals when I'm, when
I'm writing my books. And Ialso , uh, like to explore my
(10:47):
own curiosity and learnsomething in the process of
researching the story. So I,that's what sustains me as a
writer, and I hope that's whatis, is , uh, keeping my readers
engaged too
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Well, and I does is that part of, I mean, it feels
like that's what dad did aswell when he started his, how
many books did he write beforehe passed away? How , how many
are in that ? He wrote ,
Speaker 3 (11:10):
He wrote , uh, 17 in the Jolie porn , Jim Chi
series. He wrote two standalonenovels. He wrote a whole bunch
of nonfiction. He was a realgo-getter. And it's amazing to
think he wrote all those books.
He had a , for most of hislife, he had a full-time job
either as a journalist or as acollege teacher. And he raised
(11:31):
us six kids. So, you know, if Iever start feeling sorry for
myself, I think, well, hey
here. Yeah, of
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Course,
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I had my mother, and my mother was brilliant. She
took care of every detail oflife, so dad didn't have to
worry about it. So, so I don'tfeel too guilty if I have to
take a day off
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And, and I want to speak because we can't assume
that everybody who's listeningknows all about you or your dad
or, but you , um, he wasrecognized and , and I, and I,
and you have been too, forbeing very true to the Navajo
culture. I mean, you're not anoutsider who came in and just
(12:10):
made up, you know, if you, you, um, you both have immersed
yourself in the culture. Andthe coolest thing is that I
learned a lot of new Navajowords , um, and, and there is a
glossary in the back. But , um,tell me about that. Tell me
about the relationship you havewith that group of people with
(12:30):
that tribe.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Um, that was really one of the real gifts that my
dad gave me. He had built suchgoodwill with, with the Navajo
people over the years, hisyears of writing the stories
that when I decided maybe Icould continue this series and
I would have a question to ask,whoever I asked was always very
(12:54):
gracious and forthcoming withme. And sometimes , uh, the
answer was , uh, you reallyshouldn't talk about that. And
that was fine. I mean, then Ipulled back, and I think that
maybe is, I don't think my dadgot that answer so much. You
know, times have changed since1970 when dad began that
series. But one thing thatmakes me really happy, if, if
(13:15):
ever I'm doing a talk, oh , sayin Farmington at the Farmington
Public Library , um, last timeI did a talk there, maybe a
third of the audience wereNavajo people, and they had a
lot of really good questions.
And then afterwards , uh, saythe, a Navajo grandmother and
the daughter and thegranddaughter all came up and
(13:36):
they had me sign their books,and then they said, oh, well ,
we'd like to get a picturetaken with you. I felt like I
was a , an honor and celebrity.
And then the grandmother said,you know, I love your dad's
books, but I think it's abouttime somebody realized how
strong we Navajo women are. SoI thought
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Speaker 3 (13:53):
For saying that.
Yeah. Yeah. I loved it too.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
That's, that's great. And can you give people
that don't know someperspective on the size of the
Navajo Nation? And I , I mean,what it really is is like for
the, the Navajo Police force totry to cover that,
Speaker 3 (14:14):
It's, it's a , a very , uh, complicated and
dangerous job. The NavajoNation is about the size of New
England, and I think there are, I'm saying this from memory,
and I'm, I haven't looked it uplately, but there are something
like a hundred officers who arecovering this whole area. It's
divided into five different ,uh, subdistricts. And I mean,
(14:36):
those officers, some are patrolofficers like my Bernie Manto,
but you know, some aredetectives, some are guys who
specialize, say, in , uh,crimes Against Children. I
mean, they have all of the, thedepartments or a lot of the
departments that say an urbanpolice force would have, but
just not the funding and notthe staff. And I think it's
(14:57):
remarkable that they do as, asfabulous a job as they do. I'm,
I'm real , my hats are off tothem, or my hat is off to them,
It's,
Speaker 2 (15:08):
You know, I know I lived in Farmington, and so I
know that country, but it'll belike, Bernie gets in the car
and she's going somewhere to dosomething, and it's a long
drive. And I'm thinking, yes,it is. It's like, it could be
an hour or two to get to theplaces that she's describing on
dirt roads, perhaps withoutcell service. That's ,
Speaker 3 (15:30):
And then she gets there and she's dealing with a,
say a , a dangerous person, youknow? So maybe somebody who is,
has some, some mental healthproblems or has had too much to
drink, and she's basically byherself. So she has to use, she
has to use her common sense.
You know, she can't just like,you know, pull out, pull out
(15:50):
her gun and threaten to shootthe sky . She's got to have
that kind of compassion andsense of, I , I mean, there was
a lot of talk about communitypolicing, and I think the
Navajo Nation is kind of the,the macrocosm of community
policing. You know, a lot oftimes when, when they would go
out to a call, chances are theperson who is, who needs help
(16:11):
is somebody who's related tothem or related to somebody
they know. So it's a littledifferent than just dealing
with a , a stranger who's outof control. So that, I mean,
and , and in a way it makes iteasier for me as a writer,
because I don't have to dealwith all of this fabulous
technology now that policedepartments have. It's kind of
(16:31):
like going back in time a fewyears to deal with something
that's a little more basic anda little more of the, I guess
you could say, the humanelement of solving crimes. You
know, in , instead of callingup a national database, you
just think, what do I knowabout this guy? And what can I
figure out from his bodylanguage or from the way he's
talking, or from the way hishouse looks? So anyway, I never
(16:55):
so much enjoying enjoyingwriting , writing this series.
Do you think we can talk aboutDark Wind for a minute or
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Two? Yes. I, that's what I wanted to segue into
that by saying, of course, inDark Winds, they had no cell
phones . And is it the funnest,I mean, it's so much fun, it's
so smart. Are I, I don'trecall. And and tell me if I'm
wrong, were you an executiveproducer in the first series ,
in the first , um, season? Youhave been for Forever
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Have been the only , I have to say, while I would
love to take credit for howwonderful the show is, the only
thing I actually produced wasmy signature on the contract,
which gave them right to usemy, use my dad's stories, and
to use the, the first four ofmy books in the, in the series.
But yeah, I, I'm reallythrilled with it. I think , uh,
(17:47):
I think they were so smart. Thecasting, I think is, is just
really, really right on. Andthen the fact that they have
incorporated so many nativepeople in the, in the writer's
room as directors justeverywhere on , everywhere on
the set, I've been lucky enoughto , uh, uh, be able to watch
some of the filming. And it'sjust so uplifting to see, to
(18:12):
see such wonderful peopleworking on such a wonderful
show. They had some internsfrom the Institute , Institute
of American Indian Arts whowere working with them. They've
really done a fine job ofreaching out to the, to the
native community. So I am, Igive him a two big thumbs up,
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So I keep hearing , um, I , I mean, I think
everybody's brilliant. I keephearing that. And , and I'm
not, I'm not done yet withseason three. I'm this close,
but I keep hearing and seeingthat everybody's like, oh, Z
McLaren, he's up. He's, he'sgotta get an Emmy this year.
It's so amazing. It's such, Imean, the acting is , um, is so
(18:51):
good. And the directing, I'm ,I'm good friends with Chris.
Um, he's, Chris Air is aneighbor of mine, and I'm these
guys, they've got it. I mean,it's, it's so good. And I loved
the little piece where , um,Robert Redford and George RR
had cameos in the jail. I mean,if you guys haven't seen Dark
(19:13):
Winds, you've gotta turn it onright now and watch it from the
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Beginning. We'll wait till our
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Wait till our interview's over and turn it
on.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Oh, absolutely not yet. Yes. Not yet, but I'm, I'm
so what I , I know that Johannawas so good to create this,
this , um, outline, but I wasreally interested to know, is
there anything that they, thathas appeared in Dark Wind that
you've been like, oh , I knowexact , that's exactly the way
(19:44):
it should have been. That'sexactly the way my dad, or I,
it just thinks , I'm wonderingif there's some part of it
where you just had this ahamoment. It was like, boy, did
they nail that?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Oh, yeah. In the, in the very first season where
they, they introduced Jim Chiand I , I wasn't, I, I wasn't
so thrilled with, with the JimChi in the first season, but
they, when he comes in,Bernadette Manto gets to be his
boss. And I think, okay, thisis
, this is great. There's a , a, i , I love the way they
(20:17):
incorporated the landscapeinto, into the filming. A lot
of what happens in my books andin dad's books is time where
one of the characters isdriving in a car, and they're
thinking, and when you'rewriting a book, you can get
away with that, but you cannotget away with that on , in a TV
show. You know, something hasto be happening. So I think
(20:38):
they've done just a marvelousjob of kind of using the , the
books of Dads that they've usedso far as inspiration and then
moving the stories forward fromthere. So I'm, I'm really
thrilled with it.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I'm so excited to see what happens. And, and
they're filming season four.
Have you been out to watch anyof that?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I haven't had a chance to. Not yet. It's, I did
get to watch the , the very,very last scene of season
three, though. And oh , my, thewind was blowing. It had ,
there's horses in it. Thehorses weren't cooperating,
like all kinds of things. Oh .
Then it started to rain andthey had to any , anyway, it
was maybe three hours or maybefour. It was forever. And
(21:20):
finally we see the scene, theyfilm it, and , uh, then Chris
Ayers calls me over and hesays, you know, look at this.
And I got to see it rightthrough his, the, the, the way
it was gonna look in the final.
And it was, it was perfect. AndI thought, gee, they say so
much just with an expression.
And then I thought, golly, I'mglad I'm not in the TV
(21:44):
business, because I could writethe scene in like two. I mean,
it might not be as , as asemotional, but it would be the
same scene in like twoparagraphs, you know? So it
gave me great, great respectfor the, the talent and the
creativity that, that thoseactors and directors and
everybody involved with. Ithas,
Speaker 2 (22:04):
It's so exciting.
And I want folks to know thatif you're, I mean, it's, it's
filmed primarily here. I don't,I , um, I mean, and , uh, but
if you're driving north on theroad between Santa Fe and Pake
, and you look over at the ,um, um, at the , um, oh my
gosh, why Camel Rock , the OldCamel Rock Casino? You'll see
(22:25):
all of those old vehicles fromthe seventies that they're
using. It's, it's, Johanna andI are gonna have to go up and
just do a little YouTube, alittle reel of all those
vehicles sitting there. 'causeit's so cool to see all those ,
um, vehicles from, you know,when I was a little girl
sitting out there on the set.
It's so fun in that back lot.
(22:46):
So it's here, they're doing it.
It's so cool. Yeah . So what'snext? First of all, where can
people find the new book?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Um, I did a , I did the book launch at Collected
Works , and they have a lot ofsigned copies. Um, on a
Saturday I'm going to Barnesand Noble. I'm, I , I am going
to do a little talk about mybook, and I'll have some signed
books there. And then I'm doingAlbuquerque, Durango Prescott,
(23:17):
and then I'm coming back toSanta Fe back to back to Public
Attention in Santa Fe on May17th. I'm doing an event with
Nassario Garcia and a Navajopoet named , uh, AYA Vanaya
Yazi , uh, for the, for theSchool of the Dance Research.
And , uh, if anybody wants to,wants to know about that, they
(23:37):
can just look on the SARwebsite. And all my events are
on my website too. It's justanne hillerman.com, so.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Perfect. Perfect.
And , um, what do , what do youwant , uh, what do you want
folks to get from this book?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
That's a really good question. I think one of the
themes in this book is thatthings aren't always as they
seem, and people who seempretty dark maybe can change.
And people on the, on the otherhand, people, some people can
seem like they're all light androses and they really aren't.
And I guess the, maybe thebottom line is that in the end,
(24:20):
if we all take care of eachother, things are gonna work
out okay. I mean, that's whathappens in the , uh, the, the
cult Gone Wrong story. And thatcertainly is what happens in
the, the sober living , uh,Darlene to the rescue story, I
guess be , be a do not despair.
Keep, keep your optimism tunedup . I think that , I think
that's the message.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Do not despair. I love that. Are you working on
something new?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yeah, I'm working on book 11. It's going to be set
at Kenya of , of the Berniestores . It's gonna be set at
Kenya Dee . So after , afterDurango, I'm gonna detour and
do another, another. At leastlook at the overlooks at Kenya
Dee before I go to Prescott.
So,
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Well, Anne , once again, we, we've, we could talk
for another hour and a halfabout all of these. I, I want
folks to know that Anne is soamazing at her craft, but also
so generous and so kind. I'vegone now to a number of your
readings, and I'm always struckby how you are just as curious
(25:26):
about the people you aremeeting as they are about you.
And that's really a huge giftto give that to your readers.
So thank you for doing thatand, and your stories . I , I
mean, they make us think, theymake us feel , but most of all,
it makes me really proud to besomebody who has lived in the
Southwest. Always. You, youportray it so beautifully. You
(25:49):
it, and, and its people sobeautifully. So thank you for
doing that.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Oh , thank you. I have to say, living in, having
lived in Santa Fe for more than40 years, I think has really
nurtured my spirit. There'sjust something about this place
that makes it okay to takechances with your creative
energy, and I very, very muchappreciate that.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I can't say anything else after that. Take care to
everybody who's listening. Besure to grab a copy of Shadow
of the Solstice Stream DarkWinds for sure. 'cause you're
gonna be sorry if you don't,and don't forget to support
your local independentbookstore. I bought my copy at
Collected Works . This is theReal Santa Fe podcast. Until
(26:34):
next time, be well, and staycurious.
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Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.