June 12, 2025 • 35 mins
Author, playwright, public speaker, and part-time Santa Fean Tania Katan joins us to talk about why she fell head over heels for New Mexico—and what it means to be an artist in a place that practically begs you to slow down, show up, and soak it all in.
In this lively, heartfelt, and often hilarious conversation, we dig into:
- Why Tania and her wife bought a home here during the height of the pandemic
- What it feels like to live somewhere with real seasons for the first time
- The difference between weeds and wildflowers (spoiler: sometimes it’s just perspective)
- The deep-rooted magic of Santa Fe's arts community
- And why, in her words, “Nature and commerce work in chorus here.”
Oh, and don’t miss the part where we start planning a margarita-fueled podcast episode. La Choza, you’ve been warned.
Whether you’re a lifelong local or just Santa Fe-curious, this is a love letter to New Mexico in all its wild, weird, art-soaked glory.
Tania's Website: https://taniakatan.com/
Original Music by: Kene Terry
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bunny (00:00):
Um, our goal here is just to hear some stories and to talk
(00:05):
about what an incredible placeNew Mexico is to hang out and.
Live in, um, whether you're newor you've been here all your
life, your family's been herefor 400 years, which is how some
of my friends are.
But our guest today, um, this isthe amazing Tanya Catan.
She is a, the author of thebestselling, um, creative
(00:28):
trespassing, but she's also apart-time resident of New
Mexico.
So welcome, Tanya.
I'm so excited that you're here.
Tania (00:36):
Thanks for having me, bunny.
I love I I love you.
I love Santa Fe.
I love New Mexico and I don'tget any kickback from the city
or state or government forsaying that.
Bunny (00:51):
Me neither.
Me neither.
Um, it's, I am, I'm really, Ithink it'll be really fun to
talk to you because you are, youmoved here during the pandemic,
right?
I mean, you've gotta bought ahouse here during the pandemic.
And I have, because I sell realestate, I have like four
different clients who did that.
And it's, I think that's gottabe tricky.
(01:13):
So I'm curious, you know, we,um, I'm curious to know first.
Why you chose here and how, howwas that to move somewhere
completely different.
Tania (01:25):
Well, we actu so we split our time between Phoenix,
Arizona and now Santa Fe.
And um, at first for years we'dbeen coming to Santa Fe.
We just loved it, especially as,um, Venetians the summer there.
I don't know if you're familiarwith this.
But you know, they're like, youknow, we could, you could fry an
egg on the sidewalk.
They should literally just say,you can fry your brain for free
(01:48):
because we're not sellingmarijuana legally.
'cause it gets you high, but notin a good way.
Being in that amount of heat,it's just not okay for the human
body.
So for years we've been comingto Santa Fe in the summertime to
get away from the heat and alsohigh desert.
People don't know, I, Iactually.
I'm loathed to say this out loud'cause now I don't want more
people moving to Santa Fe, butthe high desert, it's kind of
(02:10):
like you get the east coast andthe west coast slammed together
in the best possible way andnature and um, seasons and
environment.
So for years we thought, well,you know what, we'll get like a
little pie de tear in Santa Fewhile we have sort of a larger
home for us in our.
Dog in Phoenix and then thepandemic hit and we just kind of
shifted the paradigm and wedecided, okay, we'll keep a
(02:32):
small place in Phoenix and then,you know, we'll get a place in
in Santa Fe.
And um, yeah, we came at theworst possible time because real
estate was at an all time highand our budget was at an all
time low.
And, um, we kept being shownplaces that were very, very,
very expensive and needed a lotof work and 10 people had
(02:54):
already put like cash offers onthem.
Um, but the good news aboutSanta Fe, and one thing I know,
you know, bunny in, in realestate is we had beautiful
relationships with our realestate agents, um, Joshua and
Melissa.
And also if you are on theground in Santa Fe in two
seconds, if you are a kind, goodhearted person, you will meet
(03:18):
every person you need to meetfor the rest of your lives.
Everyone has a story to tell.
They don't, they're not afraidto tell you their story, even if
they're, you know, the plumberworking on your pipes.
Even if you know the, like yourcar broke down and they're
helping you fix it, like.
If you are generous enough withwho you are and what you're
about, there are people who willmeet you and match you in Santa
(03:41):
Fe.
And we, we found that withhouse, you know, house looking
and, um, the place, we ended upbeing lucky enough to.
To, I guess, kind of be a partof the legacy of this home
because, um, artists owned itbefore and an artist inherited
it.
And, um, we're continuing thatlineage of artists.
Bunny (04:01):
Okay, so, and I wanna say, um, and maybe you already,
when you and I were doing our.
We're still recording, right,Johanna?
So you can pick out the goodstuff.
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay.
Johanna (04:12):
Mm-hmm.
Bunny (04:12):
So you, when we, you and I were doing our coaching
intensive where I got to mm-hmm.
The paradise of coming up forfour hours, three days in a row
and hanging out and talking.
Um.
It was in the spring, and yousaid, I've never really lived in
places that had distinctseasons, if I remember
(04:35):
correctly.
And you said this spring, therewere things coming up, you know,
little flowers showing up out inyour front in, in the, um,
flower bed out front.
And you're like, this is soexciting to, you know, we had
winter.
I mean, we really had winter,which is what happens where we
live and, and then we have thisamazing springtime and I thought
it was so cool that you were soexcited about living somewhere
(04:59):
where there were four seasons.
Tania (05:03):
Yeah, I've never, I've, I grew, first six years of my life
was New York, then got out, so,you know, I had a couple
winters, some tobogganing if youwill, and some, you know, closed
school days and then grew up inArizona, which is like one and a
half seasons.
It's like, oh, and then, ah, youknow, that's really the verbal
(05:24):
like.
Conveyance of seasons there.
And then here are two thingsthat were astounding to me that
I didn't expect in Santa Fe.
Obviously I knew conceptuallythere were seasons here, but
again, being in high desert, thedesert vegetation sort of fools
you sometimes.
Um, especially coming fromArizona where there are
crossover plants and, and um,and animals and things like
(05:44):
that.
Um, so yes, the season'sdelightful, but what was more
astounding to me was, and why wechose to be here part-time is
because.
Nature works in chorus withcommerce here, right?
Like in Phoenix, unfortunately,um, the city, um, this and has
decided that Phoenix is a movieset, um, that's subject to being
(06:07):
torn down whenever they want.
Like schools that we grew up in,torn down architecture torn
down, and things are sort ofslopped up that seem.
To be there for only a shortperiod of time.
So it's almost like we were theerasure of desert, you know, all
the malls, all, all the enclosedspaces with air condition as
(06:29):
opposed to Tucson for example.
That I think is a really goodcity of working with
environment.
Um, and so we long to live in aplace where.
You know, nature coexisted whereyou could walk out your door and
both be in nature and get acoffee or go to the best
restaurant that you ever, uh,gone to, that they're not
isolated incidents.
And to me that was reallyspecial.
(06:50):
Is special about Santa Fe andalso I, I think with Santa Fe
there's nowhere to hide.
Like literally the landscapelends itself to an openness and
it's pretty stark.
And also like, think about whatpeople do here for a living.
You know, it's not, there's nohustle and bustle here, right?
It's like you're eitherindependently wealthy, um, or
(07:12):
about to die, or a combinationof the two, or you're one of the
lucky few who has a job in theart sector.
In hospitality, in, you know,and, um, and you're hustling.
'cause it ain't cheap to livehere, I'll tell you that much.
Um, and um, there's thiswonderful sense though, not
like, you know, I lived in LA orPhoenix where you're literally
(07:33):
driving as fast as you can.
There's four lane high, right?
This, this place is such, such alabyrinth of streets of, of
curvy, windy.
Roads and curvy, windy peopleand you know, getting from A to
B means telling seven stories,listening to 10, and then
deciding to just go to coffeewith someone you just met, you
(07:54):
know?
And, um, I think that, that,that charm allows you to be who
you are.
I mean, the city, different sortof champions like, hey.
Bring it all.
Bring your flaws, your scars,your weirdness, your cultural
backgrounds.
Bring your diversity for real.
And we are here to allow thatspace for you to shine.
And, um, that is both, uh,delightful and also arresting.
(08:19):
When you've been in places whereyou're surrounded and enclosed
in architecture and systems andrigid ways of being here, you
literally are forced, whetheryou're driving.
Down a street that you thoughtwent one way and now goes
another to, to, to explore, um,the expansive space.
And I think explore theexpansive who we are, um, as
(08:41):
individuals and communities.
That's what I feel.
So I feel wonderfully exposedand open to, to learning more
than I ever thought I'd wannalearn at this point in my life.
Bunny (08:51):
That's what's so cool.
In fact, I used to, you know, myson went to school in Austin,
went to University of Texas, andI always thought.
The heck with Keep Austin weird.
I, I mean, I'm like, keep NewMexico weird.
Let's not, you know, let's not,um, get, so, um, I just don't
want it to change.
I want everybody to be allowedto, um, be exactly who they are
(09:15):
and who they wanna be.
Um.
I, you know, I mean, there'salways, always that little bit
of friction between, um, the,the very, you know, folks whose
families have been here for 300years and people who are
newcomers.
But, but what I find is thatoverall, there's a pretty broad
acceptance of anybody who's.
(09:39):
A little different or a lotdifferent.
Tania (09:40):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and you have familieswho've been here for thousands
of years and those familieswho've been here for 300 years
have colonized and taken, stolenthe land.
So, you know, you life, there's,there's restriction on different
levels too.
You know, I'm, I'm just sayingthat there's, there's, there's
different frictions and, um, andalso part of the impetus for
coming here.
And people we had met over theyears were leaders in arts
(10:02):
organizations.
So to me, you know, I alwayswant to live in a place where
arts and culture are thefoundation of being as opposed
to something that's not fundedor pushed to the side.
So for years we knew, um, MaryScully, the curator of.
The New Mexico Museum of Art.
We knew, I know, um, AndreaHanley, who is a curator at the
(10:26):
wheel ride, and we knew theexecutive director, Sidney Kahan
who, uh, who of site Santa Fe orCreative Santa Fe, and now the
new executive director, sirRockman, like, so, so I guess
my, my point is, is that.
Frictions are awesome.
It means that we're alive.
You know, tensions arefantastic.
(10:46):
If, if the underpinnings ofthose are, um, framed within
safe places to haveconversations about what that
means, about what it means tocome together as diverse and
wild and wonderful humans.
And so to me, the artsorganizations here cite Santa
Fe.
It's like world class.
(11:06):
They just did a show by JeffJeffrey Gibson, you know, like.
Artists who are at the forefrontand activists who are at the
forefront of leading theseconversations about tensions and
about creating futures that, um,include everyone are, are being,
are coming to Santa Fe to showtheir art and to share these
conversations and to invitethose of us who are lucky enough
(11:28):
to spend time in.
So, I, I think we're in a reallycool place because it, it's the
only small town I know of in, inthe United States that's wildly
liberal.
And also, again, champions thearts and, um, culture and
cultures for role.
Yeah.
Bunny (11:47):
Well, to, to simplify that a little bit is, I mean.
You're, you're sort of talkingabout art outside of you, but
what's it like to be an artistworking?
I mean, I've seen your office,you get to look at the
mountains.
You, you have, you live in thispretty nurturing environment.
How does, is it easier here?
Tania (12:06):
Well, so yeah, I'm a, I'm a writer by trade and training,
um, uh, you know, an author andplaywright and also a public
speaker.
But everything I do, thefoundation of it is writing and,
um, my office is.
It's in, it's small.
It's small, and it has windowsthat looks out onto this little
garden.
It's not big, but it feels big.
(12:27):
And we have like, uh, lalacs andlilies and things that don't
start with LI don't, you know.
Um, and the other day I waslooking outside at the, at the
green and the mountains andwhoever was smart enough to plan
this community buried all thewires underneath the ground.
So I, we can look at themountains and the vegetation
unencumbered by, um.
(12:47):
Anthrop Anyway, so I'm, I'mlooking and I'm like, I'm in
Eden.
And most of the time, quitefrankly, you know how I feel,
bunny, this is the hard partactually about getting, actually
getting work done, is I feellike we got the keys to a really
great Airbnb and then the ownerswere like, um, where you just
take it.
(13:08):
And I'm like, what?
Because it's so pretty.
It's so pretty here and, and,and every day, you know, I, I
try to walk near the plaza onAlameda, um, because I love
hearing, you know, the churchbells of St.
Francis ring and, and feelinglike I'm both here and in Europe
or, or here and you are inSpain, you know?
(13:28):
Um.
So anyway, I, I love, I love ithere.
So it's, it's hard to get workdone, but it's inspiring
simultaneously.
Johanna (13:36):
It's so funny, um, because obviously I agree with
you and we both do obviouslythat it's so beautiful here, but
I had family come from Kansasthat had never been to New
Mexico, and you know, they werelike.
How could artists be inspiredhere?
How could Giorgio O'Keeffe havelike loved living here?
It's just brown and everythingis just brown and like dry.
(13:57):
I was like, you don't get it.
These people don't get it, sothey're missing out.
It's just so much beauty.
Tania (14:04):
Yeah, it's really interesting that you say that,
Johanna, because we, um, whatyou notice is the subtleties of
all the greens, the subtletiesof all the brown.
So like in our neighborhood, youknow, pinon tree green is very
different than like, um, is itRussian sage, the, the green and
purple of that?
Or like, just like beautifulweeds and bushes.
(14:26):
I don't know the names of, butthere's like a chalky green
versus, you know, like anevergreen green like.
So many shades of that.
And I think that that if, ifpeople want to take the time to
see the world around them asextraordinary, even if that's
noticing the variation of shadesof brown or green, then they
(14:47):
will see magic wherever theydare to go.
And if they don't, then theywon't see it anywhere they go,
regardless of where they aregeographically.
Bunny (14:57):
So we had a, we went to a dinner at a neighbor's house the
other night and the daughtertook me outside and she said, we
have this really beautifulorange weed growing this weed
growing here that has theseadorable little orange flowers
on it.
And I said, well, some people inNew Mexico call that a
wildflower.
Some people call it a weed, andwe don't care what you call it,
(15:20):
because both of them arevaluable in their own way.
But I thought it was, I thoughtit was hilarious that she said,
oh, we have these weeds, butwe're gonna leave them because
they have these orange flowers.
And I was like, well.
Or, or it could be a wildflower.
You know, you, but you're right.
If you, you, the, the cool thingabout here is that you do have
to, it's not so obvious.
(15:40):
It's not like in your face.
You gotta take time, slow down.
I don't know about you, but whenI come over the hill from
Albuquerque at up, when I comeover la Baja and you see the
mountains in front of you andthe city spread out, I think
that my blood pressure goes downabout 15 points.
Tania (15:57):
Yes.
Without any hesitation.
Uh, literally opening our doorin the morning.
You know, it's funny, when wefirst landed here, we were
staying with a friend and, andeverything.
We were like, oh my God, it's sopretty.
It's so pretty.
This is so pretty.
That's so pretty.
And she's like, that might wearoff.
It has not worn off yet.
And I don't anticipate itwearing off because literally
(16:20):
I'm, uh, we have a cherry tree.
Oh, we've never had a cherrytree.
We have raspberries, we've gotstrawberries like, and every
once in a while I'm just walkingoutside and I see that that
green patch has like popped outThis.
Beautiful little piece ofnature's candy that I pop in my
pie hole and eat.
And so I don't, I, I mean, it'sall one, it's all surprising and
(16:45):
sort of unfolding right in frontof us.
And again, every human beingthat we have common contact
with, except for a few people ata local coffee, coffee shop,
which I won't name, has been,they've been like the most open,
delightful.
Kind in a deep way that I'venever experienced living in big
(17:09):
cities before.
Um, and again, I don't know ifthat's specific to New Mexico
and or Santa Fe, but we've beenthe recipient of, of a lot of
love and, and you know, also thepurveyors of love as well.
Not in a, not in a, yeah.
Uh, we're not sex workers.
I didn't mean like that, I justmeant like, you know, like in a
(17:31):
kind, um, community orientedway.
It
Johanna (17:34):
no, that it kind of, I was gonna bring up too, you
know, as someone, myself and thegay community and you as well,
like, this is one, Santa Fe isone of the few cities in the
country.
I've, I haven't traveled.
Nearly as much as you have, butor as other people.
But it's one of the few citieswhere I do feel safe and I do
feel like I can be open and bemyself.
(17:56):
Um, even some other cities inNew Mexico aren't like that, but
uh, for the most part it is.
But Santa Fe for sure, I feellike.
I'm not alone.
I'm not gonna be singled out.
So did you find that as wellwhen you moved here?
Yeah.
Tania (18:10):
I'm so, I'm so glad you brought that up because I
totally forgot.
So my wife and I have beentogether 20 years.
We got married and, and I'mputting married in air quotes,
um, in 2006 in Phoenix.
And they're only in air quotesbecause people are like, oh, it
wasn't legal, but we had acaterer.
So it was legal.
Um, and we had like, you know,we had 150 people.
(18:31):
We did it, we did like a, a, asort of proper way.
It was real in two, it was real,it was real.
So then the law caught up withhow people actually live.
And, um, around 2000, I don'teven know, I'm gonna say 2016,
15 ish.
Angela, my wife, was giving atalk.
Uh, she's a professor of art andan artist at the New Mexico
Museum of of Art.
(18:52):
And we're like, oh, it.
Let's just like, you know, popinto like the, a city office and
get married.
And we, we had two, you know,friends here, so we're, we're
like, will you be our witnesses?
And they're like, yeah.
And what was astounding to us,quite frankly, is.
Had we gotten married in Phoenixlegally, uh, with a judge, we
(19:15):
were scared that they would'veeither kind of moved us through
as if we were going through a, adrive through at McDonald's and
they were slightly irritated,um, or that the fact that we
were queer and getting marriedwouldn't be favorable to them.
So they might be unfavorable tous.
Here, we didn't have anyexpectations.
We walked in and the judge,which we thought would just be
(19:35):
like, okay, get married.
She would gave like the mostbeautiful speech about, you
know, love and our commitment toeach other.
And this is a real like, and westarted crying.
We didn't expect it to be.
Such a loving, kind experiencethrough, uh, like a government
establishment and, and also forthe person who, who officially
(19:59):
married us to actually careabout our union and, and believe
that it is important as a queercouple, as people who were
deciding to be a part of a, aNew Mexico community.
And it was the best.
Official marriage ever.
Um, you know, fast forward, who?
Yeah.
Anyway, so it was just like, itwas, it was beautiful.
Johanna (20:19):
Unexpected.
I love that story.
Thank you for sharing that.
It's beautiful.
I didn't
Tania (20:22):
see it made me cry.
Uh, we didn't expect it.
It was just really a bonus.
So.
Yeah.
Bunny (20:30):
Well, so, um, so you keep talking about stuff, things that
are unexpected.
Have you traveled anywhere inthe state?
'cause I know we talked aboutsome day trips.
We had dinner at your house andyou're like, oh, we gotta do
this day trip.
Have you traveled anywhere thatyou went?
What?
That's so cool.
Tania (20:46):
Well, I think we're just kind of getting our footing so
far.
However, we did go to, notMadrid, but Madrid.
The other Madrid?
Bunny (20:56):
Yes.
Tania (20:56):
Um, uh, we went to Madrid last year with Jock, um, and
Louise with some friends who arealso part of the Greater New
Mexico community and for gaypride and uh, it was the best
gay pride I've ever been to.
It was lit.
So Madrid is a teeny tiny town.
Created by and for artists andfunky thinkers and weirdos in
(21:22):
the best possible way.
And so we went to, to gay pride,and it was the float consisted
of a, a truck with a bed on itand five people dancing and they
would drive.
Up and down.
They'd wait 15 minutes to gathersome more audience and they,
they'd drive back and forth themain strip and, um, and they
(21:44):
were wonderful.
And I just wanted to jump on thefloat and dance.
So that was like, that was areally fun, uh, trip that we've,
we've taken.
But we are just at the beginningof exploring, uh.
Greater New Mexico.
I mean, I've done a lot of tripsagain, we, we split our time
between here in Phoenix and welike driving the driver love.
Um, so we've driven through manycities a lot.
(22:07):
Um, but we'll, we'll lookforward to staying.
Yeah.
Bunny (22:10):
So have you done that drive where you go through Zuni?
Have you done that?
Like where you go by El Morrowand you go through Zuni?
Um.
Which freeway?
It's a little, it's a little, I,I don't, I mean, I don't know
how you go to Phoenix, but um,if you go to grants and then you
go south, it's actually a littlepast.
Maybe it's a little be, anyway,you'd have to look on the map.
(22:31):
It's either right before grantsor right after.
Then you drive down through themountains to the, to Zuni, which
is of course the town that isthe base of the Zuni Pueblo.
But El Morro is in InscriptionRock, and it's where people like
Don the uh, oh, oh my gosh.
Why can't I think, listen to me,I'm, I'm like, I'm like a
(22:52):
history.
Tania (22:54):
It's either Crocodile Dundee and Gandhi.
What?
Cro Dundee,
Bunny (22:58):
people in EE is 16, 15 hundreds, carved their names on
the rock.
Tania (23:04):
Oh.
Bunny (23:04):
And then like high school kids carved their names on the
rock, I'm sure.
And, and, and so it's, um, I'llsend you a picture, but that's
one place that it, next time youdrive to Phoenix, it's a little
longer, but Wow.
Is it cool.
Tania (23:19):
Yeah, because I'm typically, I'm not gonna lie
about that because we'retypically going to Phoenix to,
to work and to get therequickly.
Right.
We, we take, you know, it'sanything that starts with a 40,
um, or 25 or a 10, that's it.
But I, I would love to stop andI hope that like in the
postscript or you know, thatthere are all these places we
talked about so that, um, we canvisit.
(23:42):
Oh, absolutely.
I love because you're such awealth of knowledge being here
for your a lot of years and notjust being here, bunny, but, but
like knowing everybody, being aconvener of community member,
um, and all that jazz.
I, I feel like, you know, it'sfunny'cause we were talking
about restaurants.
And you, you asked about, youknow, oh, what restaurants do I
(24:04):
feel like you introduced me to,to several places that I really,
I hadn't been to.
I mean, uh, market Steer hadn'tbeen to, I've just been to
Soreto.
Yes.
Soreto.
Um, yes.
Uh, yeah.
Anyway, um, and then, um, openKitchen, which isn't a
restaurant, but boy, how did youeat?
As if you've, you know, sat downat a restaurant, unbuttoned your
(24:28):
pants and got to work.
I.
Bunny (24:30):
It is where we got to meet, um, somebody who's also
gonna be a podcast guest.
Um mm-hmm.
Cheryl Jameson, who is, um, a,also somebody who moved here and
is our friend, the James BeardAward-winning cookbook writer.
Holy mackerel.
That was fun.
I keep hope, I think I'll askher when we record her podcast,
(24:52):
if she'll invite us out fordinner, because, I mean, where
does she go?
People there either are reallygood eaters or really great
cooks.
Tania (25:00):
Where does she go for dinner?
I'm curious.
'cause that would be worth notknowing.
Bunny (25:04):
Oh, no, no.
I, well, that's what we'll askher.
Okay.
Um, I see all the time that shegoes, I mean, she goes
everywhere, but, um, I, I wannago have dinner at her place into
Suge where she and her husbandrenovated a barn.
So that's what they live in.
But what about your favorites?
Tania (25:25):
My favorites.
Well, I am a good eater.
First of all, we have an unfairadvantage here.
We've got a great farmer'smarket and I got a kitchen.
So there, you know, cooking isreally nice and because
weather's so beautiful, we caneat outside.
I have a grill and blah, blah.
But I would say that for newMexican food, LAA.
All the way I said it, I meantit.
(25:46):
You could fight with me about itafterwards.
Um, and then our, our favorite,favorite go-to, like whenever
somebody's coming to town is,um, Sweetwater Harvest.
Oh, yeah.
I know because it's, okay.
Look, we're not vegetarian.
It's ve, but it's vegetarian.
One of us is allergic to wheatand it's all gluten-free.
And here's the trickery withgluten-free being with somebody
(26:08):
who's gluten-free.
It's like as a non-gluten freepe, I wanna eat all the things
and, and not question whether ornot there's gluten in it.
I just want it to be good.
And not being a vegetarian, Ijust want all the vegetables to
be good and satisfying.
And they have some meat dishesthere.
It's not completely vegetarian.
Um, but it's just, it feelsfresh and yummy.
Sort of Asian influenced andalso influenced by whatever's
(26:32):
growing at that time.
And it's, it's our yummiest.
Um, so I'd say those are like,those are our, our go-tos for
new Mexican food and for.
Um, not new Mexican food.
Bunny (26:45):
And I would tell, I, you know, people who are listening,
who are, who are in internallysaying, no, no, you gotta go to
the shed.
I had a cousin who here Oh,tell, but aren't they the sister
restaurant?
Yeah, they're sister.
It's a sister restaurant.
I, a hundred years ago when Ilived in Albuquerque, uh, my
friend said, we're gonna go to,and we had no money, of course,
I had little kids and no money.
(27:07):
And a friend of mine said, we'regonna go to Santa Fe and eat
great food.
We're we're.
I said, I keep hearing we shouldgo to the shed.
And then I kinda winced becauseI knew we couldn't afford it.
And she said, we'll go to Laa.
Everything is less expensive.
It's the exact same menu, so.
Tania (27:23):
Yeah.
And it's never, and it's never,there's no, well not never there
were lines around the place, buttheir to go operation is so
smooth and so lovely.
Like, um, because we movedduring the pandemic, you know,
when we were spending our mosttime here and there was no
sitting, there was no insidedining, and they were just like,
you phone that order in, youpicked it up, you ate like a
(27:45):
queen or king or Quin quinine.
Bunny (27:50):
And yes, they have the best margaritas.
Not that I,
Tania (27:54):
oh, they were, yeah, they were, they were awesome.
I, I, you know, I knoweverybody's like, oh, the best
Mar Maria's.
If there's tequila and somethinglike limey, it's awesome.
Like, I don't know how, how youlike the best margaritas is when
you're in the best mood to drink'em.
I think that's so true.
And not, and not too sugary.
And not too sugary.
Johanna (28:14):
Del Charo still my favorite Margarita.
Tania (28:16):
Ooh.
I've read about, I've never beento Del.
I know.
I pass it all the time.
Oh.
Okay, I'm going.
They
Bunny (28:22):
serve it with a sidecar.
Johanna (28:24):
I think that might be wise.
'cause if you feel like you getmore, you get to refill it.
But they're really good too.
So
Tania (28:30):
I feel like this, um, like this podcast lends itself
to sponsorships.
And then what you do is you givethe guest like, oh, a hundred
dollars gift card to Del Charo.
Or like, oh,$50 to the Cho.
So I look forward to being aguest again when sponsorship has
come in and I can drink freemargaritas for a year.
All right, sounds like a plan.
Bunny (28:52):
We should probably record one.
In the middle of drinkingmargaritas at Laa, I would
totally
Tania (28:59):
do a drunk podcast with you guys.
Bunny (29:02):
I would,
Tania (29:04):
in fact, I'm doing it now.
What line am I on?
Where am I?
Bunny (29:13):
Okay, so we have to, so have you read, we always wanna
ask if you, have you read anybooks by New Mexico authors or.
You love any books?
Well,
Tania (29:22):
before or, or in, sorry.
Ever ask it again?
Just
Johanna (29:26):
in your life.
Yeah.
I don't
Tania (29:28):
know.
I'm not gonna lie about thatstuff.
Um, yeah, I'm sure the answeris, uh, like a, like a hard yet
a soft yes, because I'm tryingto, I, I mean, I, I read so many
books in my time.
Well,
Johanna (29:39):
you've read Bunny's book.
Tania (29:41):
Oh,
Johanna (29:42):
ask the question
Tania (29:42):
again.
Ask the question again.
Johanna (29:43):
I dunno what I could think of.
I know you've read, I ask thequestion again.
Tania (29:48):
Okay, cut here.
Bunny (29:49):
Well, okay, so I'm just, we always wanna ask people
because we are such readers andyou're a writer.
If you've read any books by NewMexico coauthors or about New
Mexico, you know, like Deathcomes for the Archbishop always
comes to mind.
Everybody in the world's alwaysread that has read that by
Willie Kard, but otherwise.
Got your favorite New Mexicobook.
Tania (30:11):
Yeah, there's an author named Bunny Terry.
And, um, it's, it's a book likeLifesaving Gratitude about
Enduring Cancer that I'm reallyconnected to.
Actually, you know what?
Let the truth be known, thereason Bunny and I met through
books, right?
So, um, if you're talking about.
(30:31):
People based in New Mexicowriting, then I'd say that we
met in the best possible way.
We exchanged books.
And, um, to me, especially withmemoir, that's the best way, the
most comprehensive way to get toknow someone.
Um, whether you like it or not,you'll learn a lot about a
person.
But, um, and I know Bunny, yourbook was just awarded a special
(30:55):
award for you being a NewMexico.
Writer and also this book comingfrom you and what was that
award?
Bunny (31:04):
I got in the best of Santa Fe competition for books
written by New Mexico authors.
I was number three behind two ofthe coolest books ever written.
One.
One is a book, uh, by JamesMcGrath.
He wrote the, um, the Autobio orGod it, the biography of Tony
(31:25):
Hillerman and.
Um, then there is a young Navajorider who did this really cool
pilgrimage where he ran fromthe, uh, Fort Sumner, the Bosque
Redondo, where they housedNavajos for a couple years.
Kit Carson moved him off thereservation, they housed them
down there, and then they tookhim back the Long Walk back to
(31:47):
the Navajo reservation.
You know, it was during, um,some pretty ugly times in
American history and this guydid a run, like he ran.
From, and I haven't read thebook, but I keep reading reviews
thinking, why, why don't I ownthat book?
And that was number two.
And then my little book wasnumber three.
Woo.
Woo.
Congratulations.
(32:07):
So.
Tania (32:08):
Yeah, that's awesome.
And, and clearly there, youknow, what is really exciting
about New Mexico and Santa Fespecifically?
Um, just like there's a, a deephistory of of art visual artists
who come from here.
Um, you know, obviously Giorgio,O'Keeffe, Agnes Martin and
whole, everybody, lots ofpeople.
Um, so is true with writers.
(32:29):
And, um, and I feel like as awriter, that residue, that
energy that's kind of leftbehind and present and future
of, of writers, um, whether Iwe're conscious of it or not,
is, is really in our, in ourbodies when we, when we come to
Santa Fe.
So I.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, Natalie Goldberg, Ilove, she, you know, for, I, I
(32:51):
taught, um, memoir writing for,for several years, um, in a, in
a program I started with, uh,Angela in, in Italy.
And, you know, my, one of mybibles has always been writing
down the bones, uh, by noGoldberg.
You know, um, it's such afoundational tool for beginning
writers and then writers whoconsiders themselves
(33:13):
professional, who get stuck andneed to get unstuck and, um,
anyway, so I hope to run intoher at Sprouts at some point.
Bunny (33:22):
I, I, well, not recently, but I at one point went to a
reading, like out where McCumberGardens is, she did a reading of
a book.
She did some book like Struck byLightning or something that was
about memoir writing.
And I went out there and I sortof, I was so fan girl, I just
fawned over her.
I said I, and she was very nice.
She said, thank you so muchnext, because there was this
(33:46):
huge line of people who wantedher signature on their book, but
she's amazing.
And she wrote that great book,banana Rose.
She wrote this piece of fictionabout, and you, and it was, it
seemed quite.
Autobiographical.
Um, it seems sort of memoirish,but anyway, there are artists
everywhere and that's the coolthing.
(34:07):
Everybody's accessible andeverybody's welcome.
So I don't know.
That's what I love about NewMexico and I love that you're
here part of the time.
Tania (34:18):
Me too.
Thank you.
Yeah, me too.
So if you see me on the meanstreets of Santa Fe, just say,
Hey, I'm literally the personwalk.
I walk everywhere.
I'm wearing earphones, I havespiky hair, and I'm smiling
because I'm happy that I havethe privilege to have a body
that works to be in thebeautiful natural environment
(34:39):
and to be surrounded by likecool.
We are different in air quotes,human beings just like I am.
Um, so say hi, but don't b don'tbeep violently.
It really freaks me out.
No, no.
Uh, well
Bunny (34:56):
stick around because.
Soon we'll be doing theMargarita tour.
Go ahead Johanna.
I'm sorry.
Johanna (35:02):
Oh, I just wanna say well we're happy that, that
you're a new Mexican now.
You're, you're official, you'rea new Mexican, you're a Santa
fan even if it's only part-time.
But we're happy you're here and,and thank you for being on the
show with us.
Tania (35:14):
A total pleasure.
Can't wait to drink with youguys.
Johanna (35:18):
Okay, soon,
Tania (35:19):
soon, soon.
Alright, we love you.
Take care.
Love you.
Bye.
Um, our goal here is just to hear some stories and to talk
(00:05):
about what an incredible placeNew Mexico is to hang out and.
Live in, um, whether you're newor you've been here all your
life, your family's been herefor 400 years, which is how some
of my friends are.
But our guest today, um, this isthe amazing Tanya Catan.
She is a, the author of thebestselling, um, creative
(00:28):
trespassing, but she's also apart-time resident of New
Mexico.
So welcome, Tanya.
I'm so excited that you're here.
Tania (00:36):
Thanks for having me, bunny.
I love I I love you.
I love Santa Fe.
I love New Mexico and I don'tget any kickback from the city
or state or government forsaying that.
Bunny (00:51):
Me neither.
Me neither.
Um, it's, I am, I'm really, Ithink it'll be really fun to
talk to you because you are, youmoved here during the pandemic,
right?
I mean, you've gotta bought ahouse here during the pandemic.
And I have, because I sell realestate, I have like four
different clients who did that.
And it's, I think that's gottabe tricky.
(01:13):
So I'm curious, you know, we,um, I'm curious to know first.
Why you chose here and how, howwas that to move somewhere
completely different.
Tania (01:25):
Well, we actu so we split our time between Phoenix,
Arizona and now Santa Fe.
And um, at first for years we'dbeen coming to Santa Fe.
We just loved it, especially as,um, Venetians the summer there.
I don't know if you're familiarwith this.
But you know, they're like, youknow, we could, you could fry an
egg on the sidewalk.
They should literally just say,you can fry your brain for free
(01:48):
because we're not sellingmarijuana legally.
'cause it gets you high, but notin a good way.
Being in that amount of heat,it's just not okay for the human
body.
So for years we've been comingto Santa Fe in the summertime to
get away from the heat and alsohigh desert.
People don't know, I, Iactually.
I'm loathed to say this out loud'cause now I don't want more
people moving to Santa Fe, butthe high desert, it's kind of
(02:10):
like you get the east coast andthe west coast slammed together
in the best possible way andnature and um, seasons and
environment.
So for years we thought, well,you know what, we'll get like a
little pie de tear in Santa Fewhile we have sort of a larger
home for us in our.
Dog in Phoenix and then thepandemic hit and we just kind of
shifted the paradigm and wedecided, okay, we'll keep a
(02:32):
small place in Phoenix and then,you know, we'll get a place in
in Santa Fe.
And um, yeah, we came at theworst possible time because real
estate was at an all time highand our budget was at an all
time low.
And, um, we kept being shownplaces that were very, very,
very expensive and needed a lotof work and 10 people had
(02:54):
already put like cash offers onthem.
Um, but the good news aboutSanta Fe, and one thing I know,
you know, bunny in, in realestate is we had beautiful
relationships with our realestate agents, um, Joshua and
Melissa.
And also if you are on theground in Santa Fe in two
seconds, if you are a kind, goodhearted person, you will meet
(03:18):
every person you need to meetfor the rest of your lives.
Everyone has a story to tell.
They don't, they're not afraidto tell you their story, even if
they're, you know, the plumberworking on your pipes.
Even if you know the, like yourcar broke down and they're
helping you fix it, like.
If you are generous enough withwho you are and what you're
about, there are people who willmeet you and match you in Santa
(03:41):
Fe.
And we, we found that withhouse, you know, house looking
and, um, the place, we ended upbeing lucky enough to.
To, I guess, kind of be a partof the legacy of this home
because, um, artists owned itbefore and an artist inherited
it.
And, um, we're continuing thatlineage of artists.
Bunny (04:01):
Okay, so, and I wanna say, um, and maybe you already,
when you and I were doing our.
We're still recording, right,Johanna?
So you can pick out the goodstuff.
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay.
Johanna (04:12):
Mm-hmm.
Bunny (04:12):
So you, when we, you and I were doing our coaching
intensive where I got to mm-hmm.
The paradise of coming up forfour hours, three days in a row
and hanging out and talking.
Um.
It was in the spring, and yousaid, I've never really lived in
places that had distinctseasons, if I remember
(04:35):
correctly.
And you said this spring, therewere things coming up, you know,
little flowers showing up out inyour front in, in the, um,
flower bed out front.
And you're like, this is soexciting to, you know, we had
winter.
I mean, we really had winter,which is what happens where we
live and, and then we have thisamazing springtime and I thought
it was so cool that you were soexcited about living somewhere
(04:59):
where there were four seasons.
Tania (05:03):
Yeah, I've never, I've, I grew, first six years of my life
was New York, then got out, so,you know, I had a couple
winters, some tobogganing if youwill, and some, you know, closed
school days and then grew up inArizona, which is like one and a
half seasons.
It's like, oh, and then, ah, youknow, that's really the verbal
(05:24):
like.
Conveyance of seasons there.
And then here are two thingsthat were astounding to me that
I didn't expect in Santa Fe.
Obviously I knew conceptuallythere were seasons here, but
again, being in high desert, thedesert vegetation sort of fools
you sometimes.
Um, especially coming fromArizona where there are
crossover plants and, and um,and animals and things like
(05:44):
that.
Um, so yes, the season'sdelightful, but what was more
astounding to me was, and why wechose to be here part-time is
because.
Nature works in chorus withcommerce here, right?
Like in Phoenix, unfortunately,um, the city, um, this and has
decided that Phoenix is a movieset, um, that's subject to being
(06:07):
torn down whenever they want.
Like schools that we grew up in,torn down architecture torn
down, and things are sort ofslopped up that seem.
To be there for only a shortperiod of time.
So it's almost like we were theerasure of desert, you know, all
the malls, all, all the enclosedspaces with air condition as
(06:29):
opposed to Tucson for example.
That I think is a really goodcity of working with
environment.
Um, and so we long to live in aplace where.
You know, nature coexisted whereyou could walk out your door and
both be in nature and get acoffee or go to the best
restaurant that you ever, uh,gone to, that they're not
isolated incidents.
And to me that was reallyspecial.
(06:50):
Is special about Santa Fe andalso I, I think with Santa Fe
there's nowhere to hide.
Like literally the landscapelends itself to an openness and
it's pretty stark.
And also like, think about whatpeople do here for a living.
You know, it's not, there's nohustle and bustle here, right?
It's like you're eitherindependently wealthy, um, or
(07:12):
about to die, or a combinationof the two, or you're one of the
lucky few who has a job in theart sector.
In hospitality, in, you know,and, um, and you're hustling.
'cause it ain't cheap to livehere, I'll tell you that much.
Um, and um, there's thiswonderful sense though, not
like, you know, I lived in LA orPhoenix where you're literally
(07:33):
driving as fast as you can.
There's four lane high, right?
This, this place is such, such alabyrinth of streets of, of
curvy, windy.
Roads and curvy, windy peopleand you know, getting from A to
B means telling seven stories,listening to 10, and then
deciding to just go to coffeewith someone you just met, you
(07:54):
know?
And, um, I think that, that,that charm allows you to be who
you are.
I mean, the city, different sortof champions like, hey.
Bring it all.
Bring your flaws, your scars,your weirdness, your cultural
backgrounds.
Bring your diversity for real.
And we are here to allow thatspace for you to shine.
And, um, that is both, uh,delightful and also arresting.
(08:19):
When you've been in places whereyou're surrounded and enclosed
in architecture and systems andrigid ways of being here, you
literally are forced, whetheryou're driving.
Down a street that you thoughtwent one way and now goes
another to, to, to explore, um,the expansive space.
And I think explore theexpansive who we are, um, as
(08:41):
individuals and communities.
That's what I feel.
So I feel wonderfully exposedand open to, to learning more
than I ever thought I'd wannalearn at this point in my life.
Bunny (08:51):
That's what's so cool.
In fact, I used to, you know, myson went to school in Austin,
went to University of Texas, andI always thought.
The heck with Keep Austin weird.
I, I mean, I'm like, keep NewMexico weird.
Let's not, you know, let's not,um, get, so, um, I just don't
want it to change.
I want everybody to be allowedto, um, be exactly who they are
(09:15):
and who they wanna be.
Um.
I, you know, I mean, there'salways, always that little bit
of friction between, um, the,the very, you know, folks whose
families have been here for 300years and people who are
newcomers.
But, but what I find is thatoverall, there's a pretty broad
acceptance of anybody who's.
(09:39):
A little different or a lotdifferent.
Tania (09:40):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and you have familieswho've been here for thousands
of years and those familieswho've been here for 300 years
have colonized and taken, stolenthe land.
So, you know, you life, there's,there's restriction on different
levels too.
You know, I'm, I'm just sayingthat there's, there's, there's
different frictions and, um, andalso part of the impetus for
coming here.
And people we had met over theyears were leaders in arts
(10:02):
organizations.
So to me, you know, I alwayswant to live in a place where
arts and culture are thefoundation of being as opposed
to something that's not fundedor pushed to the side.
So for years we knew, um, MaryScully, the curator of.
The New Mexico Museum of Art.
We knew, I know, um, AndreaHanley, who is a curator at the
(10:26):
wheel ride, and we knew theexecutive director, Sidney Kahan
who, uh, who of site Santa Fe orCreative Santa Fe, and now the
new executive director, sirRockman, like, so, so I guess
my, my point is, is that.
Frictions are awesome.
It means that we're alive.
You know, tensions arefantastic.
(10:46):
If, if the underpinnings ofthose are, um, framed within
safe places to haveconversations about what that
means, about what it means tocome together as diverse and
wild and wonderful humans.
And so to me, the artsorganizations here cite Santa
Fe.
It's like world class.
(11:06):
They just did a show by JeffJeffrey Gibson, you know, like.
Artists who are at the forefrontand activists who are at the
forefront of leading theseconversations about tensions and
about creating futures that, um,include everyone are, are being,
are coming to Santa Fe to showtheir art and to share these
conversations and to invitethose of us who are lucky enough
(11:28):
to spend time in.
So, I, I think we're in a reallycool place because it, it's the
only small town I know of in, inthe United States that's wildly
liberal.
And also, again, champions thearts and, um, culture and
cultures for role.
Yeah.
Bunny (11:47):
Well, to, to simplify that a little bit is, I mean.
You're, you're sort of talkingabout art outside of you, but
what's it like to be an artistworking?
I mean, I've seen your office,you get to look at the
mountains.
You, you have, you live in thispretty nurturing environment.
How does, is it easier here?
Tania (12:06):
Well, so yeah, I'm a, I'm a writer by trade and training,
um, uh, you know, an author andplaywright and also a public
speaker.
But everything I do, thefoundation of it is writing and,
um, my office is.
It's in, it's small.
It's small, and it has windowsthat looks out onto this little
garden.
It's not big, but it feels big.
(12:27):
And we have like, uh, lalacs andlilies and things that don't
start with LI don't, you know.
Um, and the other day I waslooking outside at the, at the
green and the mountains andwhoever was smart enough to plan
this community buried all thewires underneath the ground.
So I, we can look at themountains and the vegetation
unencumbered by, um.
(12:47):
Anthrop Anyway, so I'm, I'mlooking and I'm like, I'm in
Eden.
And most of the time, quitefrankly, you know how I feel,
bunny, this is the hard partactually about getting, actually
getting work done, is I feellike we got the keys to a really
great Airbnb and then the ownerswere like, um, where you just
take it.
(13:08):
And I'm like, what?
Because it's so pretty.
It's so pretty here and, and,and every day, you know, I, I
try to walk near the plaza onAlameda, um, because I love
hearing, you know, the churchbells of St.
Francis ring and, and feelinglike I'm both here and in Europe
or, or here and you are inSpain, you know?
(13:28):
Um.
So anyway, I, I love, I love ithere.
So it's, it's hard to get workdone, but it's inspiring
simultaneously.
Johanna (13:36):
It's so funny, um, because obviously I agree with
you and we both do obviouslythat it's so beautiful here, but
I had family come from Kansasthat had never been to New
Mexico, and you know, they werelike.
How could artists be inspiredhere?
How could Giorgio O'Keeffe havelike loved living here?
It's just brown and everythingis just brown and like dry.
(13:57):
I was like, you don't get it.
These people don't get it, sothey're missing out.
It's just so much beauty.
Tania (14:04):
Yeah, it's really interesting that you say that,
Johanna, because we, um, whatyou notice is the subtleties of
all the greens, the subtletiesof all the brown.
So like in our neighborhood, youknow, pinon tree green is very
different than like, um, is itRussian sage, the, the green and
purple of that?
Or like, just like beautifulweeds and bushes.
(14:26):
I don't know the names of, butthere's like a chalky green
versus, you know, like anevergreen green like.
So many shades of that.
And I think that that if, ifpeople want to take the time to
see the world around them asextraordinary, even if that's
noticing the variation of shadesof brown or green, then they
(14:47):
will see magic wherever theydare to go.
And if they don't, then theywon't see it anywhere they go,
regardless of where they aregeographically.
Bunny (14:57):
So we had a, we went to a dinner at a neighbor's house the
other night and the daughtertook me outside and she said, we
have this really beautifulorange weed growing this weed
growing here that has theseadorable little orange flowers
on it.
And I said, well, some people inNew Mexico call that a
wildflower.
Some people call it a weed, andwe don't care what you call it,
(15:20):
because both of them arevaluable in their own way.
But I thought it was, I thoughtit was hilarious that she said,
oh, we have these weeds, butwe're gonna leave them because
they have these orange flowers.
And I was like, well.
Or, or it could be a wildflower.
You know, you, but you're right.
If you, you, the, the cool thingabout here is that you do have
to, it's not so obvious.
(15:40):
It's not like in your face.
You gotta take time, slow down.
I don't know about you, but whenI come over the hill from
Albuquerque at up, when I comeover la Baja and you see the
mountains in front of you andthe city spread out, I think
that my blood pressure goes downabout 15 points.
Tania (15:57):
Yes.
Without any hesitation.
Uh, literally opening our doorin the morning.
You know, it's funny, when wefirst landed here, we were
staying with a friend and, andeverything.
We were like, oh my God, it's sopretty.
It's so pretty.
This is so pretty.
That's so pretty.
And she's like, that might wearoff.
It has not worn off yet.
And I don't anticipate itwearing off because literally
(16:20):
I'm, uh, we have a cherry tree.
Oh, we've never had a cherrytree.
We have raspberries, we've gotstrawberries like, and every
once in a while I'm just walkingoutside and I see that that
green patch has like popped outThis.
Beautiful little piece ofnature's candy that I pop in my
pie hole and eat.
And so I don't, I, I mean, it'sall one, it's all surprising and
(16:45):
sort of unfolding right in frontof us.
And again, every human beingthat we have common contact
with, except for a few people ata local coffee, coffee shop,
which I won't name, has been,they've been like the most open,
delightful.
Kind in a deep way that I'venever experienced living in big
(17:09):
cities before.
Um, and again, I don't know ifthat's specific to New Mexico
and or Santa Fe, but we've beenthe recipient of, of a lot of
love and, and you know, also thepurveyors of love as well.
Not in a, not in a, yeah.
Uh, we're not sex workers.
I didn't mean like that, I justmeant like, you know, like in a
(17:31):
kind, um, community orientedway.
It
Johanna (17:34):
no, that it kind of, I was gonna bring up too, you
know, as someone, myself and thegay community and you as well,
like, this is one, Santa Fe isone of the few cities in the
country.
I've, I haven't traveled.
Nearly as much as you have, butor as other people.
But it's one of the few citieswhere I do feel safe and I do
feel like I can be open and bemyself.
(17:56):
Um, even some other cities inNew Mexico aren't like that, but
uh, for the most part it is.
But Santa Fe for sure, I feellike.
I'm not alone.
I'm not gonna be singled out.
So did you find that as wellwhen you moved here?
Yeah.
Tania (18:10):
I'm so, I'm so glad you brought that up because I
totally forgot.
So my wife and I have beentogether 20 years.
We got married and, and I'mputting married in air quotes,
um, in 2006 in Phoenix.
And they're only in air quotesbecause people are like, oh, it
wasn't legal, but we had acaterer.
So it was legal.
Um, and we had like, you know,we had 150 people.
(18:31):
We did it, we did like a, a, asort of proper way.
It was real in two, it was real,it was real.
So then the law caught up withhow people actually live.
And, um, around 2000, I don'teven know, I'm gonna say 2016,
15 ish.
Angela, my wife, was giving atalk.
Uh, she's a professor of art andan artist at the New Mexico
Museum of of Art.
(18:52):
And we're like, oh, it.
Let's just like, you know, popinto like the, a city office and
get married.
And we, we had two, you know,friends here, so we're, we're
like, will you be our witnesses?
And they're like, yeah.
And what was astounding to us,quite frankly, is.
Had we gotten married in Phoenixlegally, uh, with a judge, we
(19:15):
were scared that they would'veeither kind of moved us through
as if we were going through a, adrive through at McDonald's and
they were slightly irritated,um, or that the fact that we
were queer and getting marriedwouldn't be favorable to them.
So they might be unfavorable tous.
Here, we didn't have anyexpectations.
We walked in and the judge,which we thought would just be
(19:35):
like, okay, get married.
She would gave like the mostbeautiful speech about, you
know, love and our commitment toeach other.
And this is a real like, and westarted crying.
We didn't expect it to be.
Such a loving, kind experiencethrough, uh, like a government
establishment and, and also forthe person who, who officially
(19:59):
married us to actually careabout our union and, and believe
that it is important as a queercouple, as people who were
deciding to be a part of a, aNew Mexico community.
And it was the best.
Official marriage ever.
Um, you know, fast forward, who?
Yeah.
Anyway, so it was just like, itwas, it was beautiful.
Johanna (20:19):
Unexpected.
I love that story.
Thank you for sharing that.
It's beautiful.
I didn't
Tania (20:22):
see it made me cry.
Uh, we didn't expect it.
It was just really a bonus.
So.
Yeah.
Bunny (20:30):
Well, so, um, so you keep talking about stuff, things that
are unexpected.
Have you traveled anywhere inthe state?
'cause I know we talked aboutsome day trips.
We had dinner at your house andyou're like, oh, we gotta do
this day trip.
Have you traveled anywhere thatyou went?
What?
That's so cool.
Tania (20:46):
Well, I think we're just kind of getting our footing so
far.
However, we did go to, notMadrid, but Madrid.
The other Madrid?
Bunny (20:56):
Yes.
Tania (20:56):
Um, uh, we went to Madrid last year with Jock, um, and
Louise with some friends who arealso part of the Greater New
Mexico community and for gaypride and uh, it was the best
gay pride I've ever been to.
It was lit.
So Madrid is a teeny tiny town.
Created by and for artists andfunky thinkers and weirdos in
(21:22):
the best possible way.
And so we went to, to gay pride,and it was the float consisted
of a, a truck with a bed on itand five people dancing and they
would drive.
Up and down.
They'd wait 15 minutes to gathersome more audience and they,
they'd drive back and forth themain strip and, um, and they
(21:44):
were wonderful.
And I just wanted to jump on thefloat and dance.
So that was like, that was areally fun, uh, trip that we've,
we've taken.
But we are just at the beginningof exploring, uh.
Greater New Mexico.
I mean, I've done a lot of tripsagain, we, we split our time
between here in Phoenix and welike driving the driver love.
Um, so we've driven through manycities a lot.
(22:07):
Um, but we'll, we'll lookforward to staying.
Yeah.
Bunny (22:10):
So have you done that drive where you go through Zuni?
Have you done that?
Like where you go by El Morrowand you go through Zuni?
Um.
Which freeway?
It's a little, it's a little, I,I don't, I mean, I don't know
how you go to Phoenix, but um,if you go to grants and then you
go south, it's actually a littlepast.
Maybe it's a little be, anyway,you'd have to look on the map.
(22:31):
It's either right before grantsor right after.
Then you drive down through themountains to the, to Zuni, which
is of course the town that isthe base of the Zuni Pueblo.
But El Morro is in InscriptionRock, and it's where people like
Don the uh, oh, oh my gosh.
Why can't I think, listen to me,I'm, I'm like, I'm like a
(22:52):
history.
Tania (22:54):
It's either Crocodile Dundee and Gandhi.
What?
Cro Dundee,
Bunny (22:58):
people in EE is 16, 15 hundreds, carved their names on
the rock.
Tania (23:04):
Oh.
Bunny (23:04):
And then like high school kids carved their names on the
rock, I'm sure.
And, and, and so it's, um, I'llsend you a picture, but that's
one place that it, next time youdrive to Phoenix, it's a little
longer, but Wow.
Is it cool.
Tania (23:19):
Yeah, because I'm typically, I'm not gonna lie
about that because we'retypically going to Phoenix to,
to work and to get therequickly.
Right.
We, we take, you know, it'sanything that starts with a 40,
um, or 25 or a 10, that's it.
But I, I would love to stop andI hope that like in the
postscript or you know, thatthere are all these places we
talked about so that, um, we canvisit.
(23:42):
Oh, absolutely.
I love because you're such awealth of knowledge being here
for your a lot of years and notjust being here, bunny, but, but
like knowing everybody, being aconvener of community member,
um, and all that jazz.
I, I feel like, you know, it'sfunny'cause we were talking
about restaurants.
And you, you asked about, youknow, oh, what restaurants do I
(24:04):
feel like you introduced me to,to several places that I really,
I hadn't been to.
I mean, uh, market Steer hadn'tbeen to, I've just been to
Soreto.
Yes.
Soreto.
Um, yes.
Uh, yeah.
Anyway, um, and then, um, openKitchen, which isn't a
restaurant, but boy, how did youeat?
As if you've, you know, sat downat a restaurant, unbuttoned your
(24:28):
pants and got to work.
I.
Bunny (24:30):
It is where we got to meet, um, somebody who's also
gonna be a podcast guest.
Um mm-hmm.
Cheryl Jameson, who is, um, a,also somebody who moved here and
is our friend, the James BeardAward-winning cookbook writer.
Holy mackerel.
That was fun.
I keep hope, I think I'll askher when we record her podcast,
(24:52):
if she'll invite us out fordinner, because, I mean, where
does she go?
People there either are reallygood eaters or really great
cooks.
Tania (25:00):
Where does she go for dinner?
I'm curious.
'cause that would be worth notknowing.
Bunny (25:04):
Oh, no, no.
I, well, that's what we'll askher.
Okay.
Um, I see all the time that shegoes, I mean, she goes
everywhere, but, um, I, I wannago have dinner at her place into
Suge where she and her husbandrenovated a barn.
So that's what they live in.
But what about your favorites?
Tania (25:25):
My favorites.
Well, I am a good eater.
First of all, we have an unfairadvantage here.
We've got a great farmer'smarket and I got a kitchen.
So there, you know, cooking isreally nice and because
weather's so beautiful, we caneat outside.
I have a grill and blah, blah.
But I would say that for newMexican food, LAA.
All the way I said it, I meantit.
(25:46):
You could fight with me about itafterwards.
Um, and then our, our favorite,favorite go-to, like whenever
somebody's coming to town is,um, Sweetwater Harvest.
Oh, yeah.
I know because it's, okay.
Look, we're not vegetarian.
It's ve, but it's vegetarian.
One of us is allergic to wheatand it's all gluten-free.
And here's the trickery withgluten-free being with somebody
(26:08):
who's gluten-free.
It's like as a non-gluten freepe, I wanna eat all the things
and, and not question whether ornot there's gluten in it.
I just want it to be good.
And not being a vegetarian, Ijust want all the vegetables to
be good and satisfying.
And they have some meat dishesthere.
It's not completely vegetarian.
Um, but it's just, it feelsfresh and yummy.
Sort of Asian influenced andalso influenced by whatever's
(26:32):
growing at that time.
And it's, it's our yummiest.
Um, so I'd say those are like,those are our, our go-tos for
new Mexican food and for.
Um, not new Mexican food.
Bunny (26:45):
And I would tell, I, you know, people who are listening,
who are, who are in internallysaying, no, no, you gotta go to
the shed.
I had a cousin who here Oh,tell, but aren't they the sister
restaurant?
Yeah, they're sister.
It's a sister restaurant.
I, a hundred years ago when Ilived in Albuquerque, uh, my
friend said, we're gonna go to,and we had no money, of course,
I had little kids and no money.
(27:07):
And a friend of mine said, we'regonna go to Santa Fe and eat
great food.
We're we're.
I said, I keep hearing we shouldgo to the shed.
And then I kinda winced becauseI knew we couldn't afford it.
And she said, we'll go to Laa.
Everything is less expensive.
It's the exact same menu, so.
Tania (27:23):
Yeah.
And it's never, and it's never,there's no, well not never there
were lines around the place, buttheir to go operation is so
smooth and so lovely.
Like, um, because we movedduring the pandemic, you know,
when we were spending our mosttime here and there was no
sitting, there was no insidedining, and they were just like,
you phone that order in, youpicked it up, you ate like a
(27:45):
queen or king or Quin quinine.
Bunny (27:50):
And yes, they have the best margaritas.
Not that I,
Tania (27:54):
oh, they were, yeah, they were, they were awesome.
I, I, you know, I knoweverybody's like, oh, the best
Mar Maria's.
If there's tequila and somethinglike limey, it's awesome.
Like, I don't know how, how youlike the best margaritas is when
you're in the best mood to drink'em.
I think that's so true.
And not, and not too sugary.
And not too sugary.
Johanna (28:14):
Del Charo still my favorite Margarita.
Tania (28:16):
Ooh.
I've read about, I've never beento Del.
I know.
I pass it all the time.
Oh.
Okay, I'm going.
They
Bunny (28:22):
serve it with a sidecar.
Johanna (28:24):
I think that might be wise.
'cause if you feel like you getmore, you get to refill it.
But they're really good too.
So
Tania (28:30):
I feel like this, um, like this podcast lends itself
to sponsorships.
And then what you do is you givethe guest like, oh, a hundred
dollars gift card to Del Charo.
Or like, oh,$50 to the Cho.
So I look forward to being aguest again when sponsorship has
come in and I can drink freemargaritas for a year.
All right, sounds like a plan.
Bunny (28:52):
We should probably record one.
In the middle of drinkingmargaritas at Laa, I would
totally
Tania (28:59):
do a drunk podcast with you guys.
Bunny (29:02):
I would,
Tania (29:04):
in fact, I'm doing it now.
What line am I on?
Where am I?
Bunny (29:13):
Okay, so we have to, so have you read, we always wanna
ask if you, have you read anybooks by New Mexico authors or.
You love any books?
Well,
Tania (29:22):
before or, or in, sorry.
Ever ask it again?
Just
Johanna (29:26):
in your life.
Yeah.
I don't
Tania (29:28):
know.
I'm not gonna lie about thatstuff.
Um, yeah, I'm sure the answeris, uh, like a, like a hard yet
a soft yes, because I'm tryingto, I, I mean, I, I read so many
books in my time.
Well,
Johanna (29:39):
you've read Bunny's book.
Tania (29:41):
Oh,
Johanna (29:42):
ask the question
Tania (29:42):
again.
Ask the question again.
Johanna (29:43):
I dunno what I could think of.
I know you've read, I ask thequestion again.
Tania (29:48):
Okay, cut here.
Bunny (29:49):
Well, okay, so I'm just, we always wanna ask people
because we are such readers andyou're a writer.
If you've read any books by NewMexico coauthors or about New
Mexico, you know, like Deathcomes for the Archbishop always
comes to mind.
Everybody in the world's alwaysread that has read that by
Willie Kard, but otherwise.
Got your favorite New Mexicobook.
Tania (30:11):
Yeah, there's an author named Bunny Terry.
And, um, it's, it's a book likeLifesaving Gratitude about
Enduring Cancer that I'm reallyconnected to.
Actually, you know what?
Let the truth be known, thereason Bunny and I met through
books, right?
So, um, if you're talking about.
(30:31):
People based in New Mexicowriting, then I'd say that we
met in the best possible way.
We exchanged books.
And, um, to me, especially withmemoir, that's the best way, the
most comprehensive way to get toknow someone.
Um, whether you like it or not,you'll learn a lot about a
person.
But, um, and I know Bunny, yourbook was just awarded a special
(30:55):
award for you being a NewMexico.
Writer and also this book comingfrom you and what was that
award?
Bunny (31:04):
I got in the best of Santa Fe competition for books
written by New Mexico authors.
I was number three behind two ofthe coolest books ever written.
One.
One is a book, uh, by JamesMcGrath.
He wrote the, um, the Autobio orGod it, the biography of Tony
(31:25):
Hillerman and.
Um, then there is a young Navajorider who did this really cool
pilgrimage where he ran fromthe, uh, Fort Sumner, the Bosque
Redondo, where they housedNavajos for a couple years.
Kit Carson moved him off thereservation, they housed them
down there, and then they tookhim back the Long Walk back to
(31:47):
the Navajo reservation.
You know, it was during, um,some pretty ugly times in
American history and this guydid a run, like he ran.
From, and I haven't read thebook, but I keep reading reviews
thinking, why, why don't I ownthat book?
And that was number two.
And then my little book wasnumber three.
Woo.
Woo.
Congratulations.
(32:07):
So.
Tania (32:08):
Yeah, that's awesome.
And, and clearly there, youknow, what is really exciting
about New Mexico and Santa Fespecifically?
Um, just like there's a, a deephistory of of art visual artists
who come from here.
Um, you know, obviously Giorgio,O'Keeffe, Agnes Martin and
whole, everybody, lots ofpeople.
Um, so is true with writers.
(32:29):
And, um, and I feel like as awriter, that residue, that
energy that's kind of leftbehind and present and future
of, of writers, um, whether Iwe're conscious of it or not,
is, is really in our, in ourbodies when we, when we come to
Santa Fe.
So I.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, Natalie Goldberg, Ilove, she, you know, for, I, I
(32:51):
taught, um, memoir writing for,for several years, um, in a, in
a program I started with, uh,Angela in, in Italy.
And, you know, my, one of mybibles has always been writing
down the bones, uh, by noGoldberg.
You know, um, it's such afoundational tool for beginning
writers and then writers whoconsiders themselves
(33:13):
professional, who get stuck andneed to get unstuck and, um,
anyway, so I hope to run intoher at Sprouts at some point.
Bunny (33:22):
I, I, well, not recently, but I at one point went to a
reading, like out where McCumberGardens is, she did a reading of
a book.
She did some book like Struck byLightning or something that was
about memoir writing.
And I went out there and I sortof, I was so fan girl, I just
fawned over her.
I said I, and she was very nice.
She said, thank you so muchnext, because there was this
(33:46):
huge line of people who wantedher signature on their book, but
she's amazing.
And she wrote that great book,banana Rose.
She wrote this piece of fictionabout, and you, and it was, it
seemed quite.
Autobiographical.
Um, it seems sort of memoirish,but anyway, there are artists
everywhere and that's the coolthing.
(34:07):
Everybody's accessible andeverybody's welcome.
So I don't know.
That's what I love about NewMexico and I love that you're
here part of the time.
Tania (34:18):
Me too.
Thank you.
Yeah, me too.
So if you see me on the meanstreets of Santa Fe, just say,
Hey, I'm literally the personwalk.
I walk everywhere.
I'm wearing earphones, I havespiky hair, and I'm smiling
because I'm happy that I havethe privilege to have a body
that works to be in thebeautiful natural environment
(34:39):
and to be surrounded by likecool.
We are different in air quotes,human beings just like I am.
Um, so say hi, but don't b don'tbeep violently.
It really freaks me out.
No, no.
Uh, well
Bunny (34:56):
stick around because.
Soon we'll be doing theMargarita tour.
Go ahead Johanna.
I'm sorry.
Johanna (35:02):
Oh, I just wanna say well we're happy that, that
you're a new Mexican now.
You're, you're official, you'rea new Mexican, you're a Santa
fan even if it's only part-time.
But we're happy you're here and,and thank you for being on the
show with us.
Tania (35:14):
A total pleasure.
Can't wait to drink with youguys.
Johanna (35:18):
Okay, soon,
Tania (35:19):
soon, soon.
Alright, we love you.
Take care.
Love you.
Bye.
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