Unshackling the Mind: A Journey Through Mental Health

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Dating sucks for young people.
Man, trying to date a youngwoman as a young man right now
is hard, unless you like.
They call it the the 666's, butthat's like 4% of the
population.
That's not enough people.
What the fuck are you guyssupposed to do?

(00:21):
10 young women are chasing oneguy who meets that.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
I'm so glad I grew up when I did.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Me too, so glad.
Oh, we say that all the fuckingtime.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I could, I wouldn't.
I would probably be riddledwith anxiety and depression if I
grew up in this, we'll get intothat.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
This world, we'll get into that.
That's a fucked up thing.
Okay, thank you for tuning into this episode of the redacted.

(01:21):
We have a guest here today thatworks, and has worked, in the
mental health field for a verylong time, and thank you for
coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thank you so very much.
It's a very passionate aboutthis topic.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's going to be a great show.
Um, I have to put a littletrigger warning out there.
Trigger warning and adisclaimer.
So we're going to be talkingabout things to do with mental
health and maybe mentaldisorders and medications and
things like that.
So just keep in mind obviouslyconsult your healthcare
professional.

(01:53):
We're not offering advice inany kind of way For that.
So you know, this is just tobasically understand the
experience and the story andkind of what's going on with
mental health and inpatient carefacilities.
So you know, obviously Take itfor a grain of salt and listen
and joy, get something out of it, but in no way medical advice.

(02:16):
Yes, yeah, important to say, wegotta yes, I'm not a doctor.
No, no, I'm not a doctor, justplay one on tv sometimes.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Hey, that's all right .

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, um.
So you have a quite extensive,Uh, quite an extensive
experience working with umPeople in the mental health
field and, specifically, youstarted Working Um what was it
Did you say?
Prisons and inpatient.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yes, I went right into, uh, the maximum security
men's prison.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Holy crap, yeah, that's like uh, out of the
frying pan and into the fireright there and that.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
It's it was a goal and I achieved it, so I just
it's like okay, let's do this.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
So that was your first job like out of school.
Mm-hmm.
Wow, why was it a goal?

Speaker 2 (03:13):
I wanted to work with , like I just felt like these
individuals are so fascinatinglike why did you commit this
crime?
What was driving you?
And I know all the stuff welearned in school is fine in a
book, but you don't really.
Yeah.
See that when you're reading.

(03:33):
Yeah.
It's talking with the person,learning that person and like
why are you like that?
Then, when you have mentalillness on top of that, then
it's even more fascinating.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Hmm, I, I guess, uh, that would be, as a demographic,
very rich um and in variety,because you would, comparatively
, you'd probably have to saythat, like the normal population
, the normal productivepopulation is pretty homogenous

(04:05):
Compared to what you'd see in aprison, because, I mean, you
have a huge, just variety ofpeople that have been, you know,
out of the system we're used to.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Oh, for many years, and they're going to be in there
for life.
That's where, unfortunately,they're going to have their last
breath.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
So yeah, you were in maximum security.
So what Was your job?
You were doing mental healthcounseling and therapy and
Things like that, with theseinmates as men's prisons.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
So these guys right, right, well, and this it was the
way I would describe it is aprison within the prison.
So this was, um, um, somethingthat came out of a lawsuit where
there was a sex successfulsuicide.
The family won and part of thatwas we need more mental health
in the prison system.

(04:59):
You know the the individual whopassed away with the successful
suicide was claiming, you knowhe was depressed and nobody was
talking to him.
So that changed a lot withinthe department of justice also.
So this was supposed to be forthose who were severely mentally
ill, just meaning with mooddisorders like schizophrenia,

(05:22):
bipolar disorder, borderlinepersonality disorder, so the
heavier, not personalitydisorders like anti social,
where our criminals are.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
But we had a mix.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Okay, so you're taking very serious clinical
mental illnesses, like medicated.
Yes, you know, ingrained in inmixing them with people that
just might be a little Bipolaror a little.
What do they?
They have personality disordera lot.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Some, some, um, you know, and those are.
That's where your anti socialpersonality disorder, your
narcissistic personalitydisorder, those individuals Are
different than the mood disorder, than individuals, that's a
whole different.
Okay, I know.
So with the mood disorders it'sactually a chemical imbalance.

(06:19):
Oh, okay so, for thosemedications are very helpful for
leveling out the moods.
Okay, so when you just have apersonality disorder like anti
social, narcissistic, histrionicYou're you're talking about
people who have just had severetraumas in their lives generally

(06:40):
, abandonment issues, abuse, allthese things but they prey on
people.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, I was gonna say that they're probably a little
more apt to be predatory.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Absolutely.
You know, and I saw that youknow, taking, you know, the
individuals suffering with mooddisorders, taking their
commissary writing on them,taking advantage of them
sexually.
Jesus, and it's just, it'sheartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking because,while these individuals are
there for their crimes andregardless of your mental health

(07:13):
, you still are responsible foryour actions.
Yeah, we have nobody's excusedfrom it.
Okay.
They definitely should not be inthe same vicinity with these
predators who they takeadvantage and lack that empathy
and don't know Understandhurting someone like that's like

(07:35):
a level like there's likepsychopathy is what they would
call it, right, that's whereyou're just unable to empathize
and yeah.
You can't relate.
You don't know how to.
You were never taught.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, you didn't have Um you'll just do whatever you
need to do, exactly.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, you don't give a shot as your needs are met.
Nothing else matters.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Hmm, now, in just kind of a I guess a question I'm
wondering.
I mean, there's a lot of peoplewith Um psychopathic or
sociopathic tendencies, right?
Not all of them end up inprison, you know, not a majority
from probably don't.
Is there a way to treat that?

(08:20):
Is that treatable, or is thatjust something you're kind of
just in your opinion?
I Am is there a way to makethem empathize or to get them to
.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, there, there are some therapies that you can
do.
I mean in and again thatthere's so many different
variables.
But there is one therapy thatis done in the prison and mostly
geared more towards those thatcarry the diagnosis of the anti
social personality disorder, andthat's mrt.

(08:53):
It's moral recondition therapy.
So it's following instructions,it's doing everything to this,
this t, and just trying toreally Focus on where you're not
sure that thought process.
So there are some therapies outthere.

(09:13):
Um, you could try to addressthe trauma, yeah, um, it depends
on you know, if that personwants to.
Yeah, but you know, I think weall carry some of those traits.
Just because, you know, somedays we're like oh yeah, I'm
looking extra good, I'm gonnahit.
Look at myself in the mirrorevery time I walk by.

(09:36):
You know, or oh no, I gotta getmy quarter back from that.
All these cart, yeah.
So I think we have like littletraits, but when it becomes your
whole, you like empathy, youlike compassion.
Yeah, you can't feel anything.
Yeah, you heart, you knowanimals.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, yeah, those basic like dexter.
Do you watch dexter?

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Love the dexter.
Dexter was great.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Dexter was fantastic.
It gave us like a hero in apsychopath, like using it for
the could we get?
yeah, I like using it for thegood purposes and I think a lot
of I mean you talk about peopleeven out of prison I mean a lot
of like high powered CEOs andyou know very successful, hyper

(10:27):
successful people could probablybe be psychopathic, sociopathic
, um, because that's how theygot where they got.
They did what they needed to do, they stepped on who they
needed to step on.
They didn't break any laws.
They might not have hurtanybody, but they went kind of
that path with it and used it.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, just grabbing on again Having their needs met.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, regardless, it's like a manipulative thing.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, and, as they describe it, actually in that
mrt therapy, because it's likeliving in your prison, your own
prison, so living in your ownmind.
Um, when, would you say, wefirst learned to manipulate?

Speaker 1 (11:12):
What age, mm-hmm?
Oh man, that has to be superearly.
Like I see my kids do it.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
They try to manipulate with crying and turn
on fake tears, and at three, theway the book described it, and
it's not verbatim, but it'sbasically the gist when we're
evicted from the womb we startmanipulating.
Wow, oh huh, that's our form ofcommunication, right?

(11:41):
Yeah cry.
Mom comes cry, dad comes cry.
This cry, that cry, so we startmanipulating, is like one of
the first behaviors.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense, that's fuckedup.
Well, it's probably.
I mean it's good.
I guess we have to have some ofthat.
They said um and I don't knowif I've heard this different
ways um cats.
I don't know if you've ever hadcats.
They say that cats Meow, sothey don't meow at each other

(12:15):
Like wild cats don't like meowat each other.
They They've somehow learned tomeow at people, to manipulate,
to get their attention, to getfood, to be cute.
And they said it was likeemulating, like babies crying,
like trying to Like domesticatedcats.

(12:36):
I don't know.
I heard it.
I like the story.
I don't know if it's true ornot.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
I'm trying to think about.
I didn't have cats for a verylong time because I was allergic
, but we had a cat that adoptedus when we lived in the country
and the only time she would wantto be touched was when she was
having kittens.
Oh wow, but then she wouldn'tmother him.
We had to like, force her down.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Kind of weird.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
She was a mouser, she'd like to be out in the
country and, yeah, doing herthing, but that's the only time.
But she would become chatty andshe would like start, you know,
walking like they learned tomanipulate.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Like everything that has like social communication
and interaction has tomanipulate to some extent.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
Look at dogs, yeah, yeah, they don't get the puppy
eyes, come on.
Yeah, they know how to, theyknow what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
They know what they're doing.
Little jerks, little sociopathsneed a job, so here's a weird
one.
Maybe I've been saying it wrongpsychopath and sociopath,
what's the?

Speaker 2 (13:48):
The.
The difference is.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
You know it seems like kissing cousins.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
I don't really in just then.
This is just my opinion.
I think there's the same.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Same.
Thing.
Yeah, I mean Psychopath soundsworse.
Say look, I think a sociopathsounds like something people
just throw around all the time,but like psychopaths it sounds
like it's like norman baits,like psychopath.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yes, yeah, I was actually doing some reading
because you know, all thedefinitions change all the time.
Yeah, yeah, there's some formof change, like they just come
out with a dsm 5 and then, oh,shocker, no, we have an update.
Yeah, and one thing that I readand I don't remember source I

(14:41):
did Was saying that they werereally kind of trying to get
away from the whole sociopathpart.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
They had so many similarities and so I don't go
with Psychopathy instead.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, it's.
Yeah, I don't remember, god,what was that, I don't know.
Again, it's online, so I don'tremember.
I don't think it was like a paReading or anything like that.
Um, but no, I think they're,because they're basically the
same.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, so, um, and then we got off track a little
bit.
So you were working in thisfacility, so within the prison,
so it's a wing of the prison orsomething and, um, you said you
know, these people were pickingon the people with mood
disorders and that was kind of amess.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
It was sad.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
What kind of shit would you see in there?

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Um, well, I know the one Offender.
He would wake up.
They would have.
They drew on his face, drew astar, made all these like racial
slurs and everything like onhis face and, um, they would,
you know, make them have sexwith them.

(15:56):
Yeah, um, again, just it'sfucked up shit.
It was.
It's very.
It was very fucked up and Notunder, and that was my first job
in the prison system, so I'mabsorbing it all.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
I'm trying to figure out how it really works and
that's a super high level too,because then I'm thinking max
security, and I mean, what wouldyou call it?
The psych ward, the man?

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, but that you would not learn.
You can't learn that stuff in atextbook, and in no way a
textbook prepares you for that.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, I guess that's a, that's a trial by fire right
there.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
So, um, I mean they probably should have done that
different and had the what themood people just in general
population, but with medication.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
No, so those most vulnerable with the mood
disorders to be kind of isolated.
Okay the personality disorders.
Yeah, you guys go back with GenPop, because that's mostly what
Gen Pop is anti socials.
You guys go back out there.
You know.
This way, the vulnerable areprotected.

(17:12):
Okay they're not.
You know, being Pray for theseindividuals there, you know.
Can you know Rest at night?
Yeah.
Not have to worry.
And you know in the guards dothe best that they can and and
everything.
But you know where there's awill, there's a way, they're

(17:32):
gonna find a way to do it.
They always did, they alwayswill.
So it's just you know needingand I hope that's changed
Because that was brand new whenI started working there.
So hopefully that has evolvedand it's changed and it is
better now and that they reallyare starting to look at
separating those individualswith legitimate mental illness

(17:56):
in the prison system for thosethat reason.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
So this has to kind of make me think of that too.
So you said the people, thepersonality disorders should
have been in Gen Pop.
Do you think a lot of themmanipulated their way into that
ward?
I'm sure to get a little easierinto, maybe Because they could
kind of run shit there right.
Right.
It was probably better for them.

(18:21):
Oh, it's easier.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, they were more like in dorms so it was brand
new.
So I'm sure, well, that path,you know that's gossip, that's
like, okay, the whole personknows everything now.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, so I'm sure that went around and I'm sure
they use their core manipulationto be able to Do whatever was
required to be able to get tothat, that new structure or that
new facility for those that arementally ill so in working with

(18:59):
these people and and I guess IGuess maybe a more interested in
the the personality disorderpart of it what was kind of I
Mean and this is just in yourown experience what's kind of
like a common thread.
What did you see a lot intalking with these people?

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Nothing was their fault.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Nothing was their fault.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
There is an excuse for everything.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
So that's a common thread.
And then If you go into, youknow how they grew up and maybe
what kind of trauma theyexperienced.
What, what's a common threadthere?
Did you see patterns?

Speaker 2 (19:41):
abandonment okay abandonment is is a big one and
abuse.
Emotional or sexual or sexual,yeah any any kind of abuse.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
When you're a kid.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, the neighborhood, the environment
you grow up in.
You know, if you're you're,you're born into this
neighborhood that you knowalways on the news because
there's guns and drive-by's andall of that you know.
All these these things areinstilled at a young age, so
there's, you know many differentThings that play into that.

(20:20):
But I think a lot of times weforget how important the
environment is and the effectour environment has on us also.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah did you?
I mean, I guess there's apicture you can paint with that
bad neighborhood, abused growingup, maybe abandoned men, issues
, shit like that.
So that's maybe one.
Is there another?
So like another level of likeEducated, good family, rich

(20:51):
People that you came across?

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Teflon.
I call those Teflon Teflonpeople.
Slides right off, so they'venever had to be accountable for
anything.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
So there is same same problem, same common thread.
Not my fault, not accountableright, because some way we're
talking about status now.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
You know CEOs, education and all of that.
You know mom and dad havealways covered everything up.
Yeah.
My kids didn't do that, my kidwould not do that.
Well, here, no, I'll just letme just write a check in.
So where's the accountability?
Yeah, there's no accountability.
So how do you learn?
Anything is your fault.

(21:32):
Hmm.
How do you learn that rightfrom wrong, I guess?

Speaker 1 (21:39):
That's kind of it.
There's a fucked up dichotomyin that, because you're talking
about the two extremes, bothforming a fucking personality
disorder in somebody.
Like one family tried too hardto take care of the kid and Did
too much and didn't let themfail and didn't let them Own up

(22:01):
to whatever they did stroke thecheck, made the phone call.
So you'd think that's goodparenting, maybe they thought
they were doing a good job, butthen you raise this psychopath
and then on the other side theneglect is obvious.
I think we see that, I think wecould understand that, I think
most people would agree.
But the other one you'retalking about, like the Teflon

(22:24):
people, that's a sneaky one.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Mm-hmm, that's a sneaky one and you, you, you see
it, you see it.
I've worked with individualslike that in in mental health
yeah, who you know andsupervisor roles, do whatever,
because you know account of itor?

(22:47):
Of this department.
No accountability.
I don't do anything wrong.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
They're like their own little psychopath
narcissistic yeah, what do theycall that?
They call that the, the darktriad, or something.
It's like a Machiavellianprinciple, like a narcissistic
psychopathic.
Might be another one in there,I Don't know.

(23:14):
I've heard it.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, it's, it's.
I'm telling you, there's somecharacters and it's sad yeah
it's really sad.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, and I.
Mean what?
What do you think is thebreakdown that's led to a lot of
that?
I mean, are we rewardingpsychopaths, are we?
I Mean, if you're talking abouta good part of the prison

(23:47):
population of this max isprobably suffering with us in
some way.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, that you know there's Because you have so many
different types of crimes.
So you know where are we.
Which crime base are we lookingat?

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Like a productive redirect, like kind of what we
were talking about before.
Like the military, the militaryhas a lot of that, like I was
in.
It has a lot of people that areprobably pretty aggressive.
You know, but it's Like a usefulredirect If you can take that
you know aggression and use itfor good.

(24:27):
You know what?
What else is there?
Not fearing bodily harm, youknow?
I'm sure that's kind ofSomewhere in there and we all
had that to some extent becausewe signed up to Go to war and
that's in our just Ourselves.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Fight, flight or freeze.
Yeah in those situations Also.
So we have part of us that'snaturally going to take a role
in that.
And then, depending on, likeyou're saying, with the training
and stuff, you're trained to dothat.
Yeah, you're trained to beaggressive for that situation.
Yeah, be able to separate it,and some people get lost in that
.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, I saw a lot of.
I saw a lot of people that Ijust came across in the military
that you know they came fromneglectful like.
A lot of people came from themore neglectful side, not the
privileged side, but you knowthat we're able to really turn
that energy and turn their livesaround and Do something great

(25:24):
with it and then they eitherMake a career out of it or they
retire and know that they haveconfidence and skills and you
know Like kind of a moralcompass mm-hmm on things that
seems to be like a Productiveway.
But everyone can't go in themilitary, you know, maybe sports
is a good redirect intoaggressive energy, and that's

(25:48):
Well something that's that's upand coming now.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Rage rooms.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Rage rooms.
What the fuck is a rage room?

Speaker 2 (25:57):
It's.
You go to this room and there'srandom stuff in there you have
you can use like a bat, golfclub.
There's hammers, sledge, hammer, you can, and you just go in
there and you just break thehell out of shit.
Yeah, talk about a release.
Yeah.

(26:17):
Talk about a release now.
Tell me that.
Hmm well I know I felt thetherapeutic value so you did.
I did, yes, yes, I did.
I brought a group of us.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
I want an old copier like office space, or was that
office space?
Yeah, that was office space,the old copier they had just
smack it.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
There's therapeutic value in that and getting that
rage, that anger out, because Ifwe don't do that, you know it's
bad for our health.
Yeah, heart attack, a stroke.
But where's that anger comingfrom?
What are you afraid of?
What are you afraid of thatanger generally comes from fear,
the unknown anxiety, Fearingsomething that's not there right

(27:09):
, that's where we get in ourcognitive distortions and we
have to start Understanding that.
You know, it's not just mumbojumbo, that we talk about their
real things.
Yeah, you know what are wedoing?
Well, yeah, I catastrophizeeverything.
Yeah.
I think, oh, this is gonna behorrible, I have no reason to
base it on.
Yeah you know I'm a mind reader.

(27:32):
I know what's gonna happen.
Yeah, always know.
Yeah, we have to think about it, you know.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
What were they call that?
Like making general statementson stuff.
Like bad shit always happens tome and yeah, yeah, yeah,
there's never works out and Ialways have bad luck and kind of
just making these like grand.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah statements towards shit and you see a lot
of people do that it is andthat's one of the things when I
start working with Individualsis I introduce them to cognitive
distortions, because I think wehave to understand how we're
thinking, we're, we're, we'reupset, we have anxiety, we have
a depression, we're in one ofthese cognitions negative, or

(28:13):
these cognitive distortions inhere, we're in one of them,
something's looping, you know,and Like whoa, whoa, yeah, oh
yeah, I'm an always, always andnever always, it never is yeah,
those words.
You know you're overgeneralizing things, you're

(28:35):
minimizing, you're maximizing.
We've said catastrophizing mindreading, jumping to conclusions
.
I mean, we do these things andwe don't even know that we're
doing it and we're just soconditioned we have to.
Okay, stop.
Okay, where's this anxietycoming from?
I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna dohorrible.

(28:58):
Okay, why are you gonna dohorrible?
You know, and you start.
Okay, now You're reallystarting to catastrophize.
Why, where are you afraid of?
Well, I'm afraid I'm not gonnado.
Well, okay, there you have it.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
You do well, awesome, if you don't, you try again so
it's like, and to kind of jumpjump from that to.
I mean, if you're talking aboutlike anxiety, you know what
anxiety and kind of depressionand compulsions, aren't those
all kind of the same family, soto speak?

(29:31):
Like anxiety and depression arenot the same thing, but they're
really close and one usuallyleads to the other.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, they're usually intertwined.
Yeah, Generally if you'regiving a diagnosis of anxiety,
depression, they're a packageddeal.
Yeah, and they play.
They can play off of each other.
You know breaking it apart.

(29:59):
Yes, they can be two separateentities also with that.
So then you have, like, yourOCD and your stuff that comes
with the anxiety portion of it,where you just you can't rest,
something's not in order,something's not right
Something's and you just can'tsit still.
But then those some things cangrow into compulsions, where you

(30:22):
know some people, pika, whereyou eat random objects.
You know I can't remember theword.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Anorexia bulimia, like we just we just interviewed
somebody with anorexia and Ilearned a whole bunch of things
I didn't yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
It's about control If you feel you have no control
over anything else in your lifedamn it.
I control what I put in andwhat I may come out of my body.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
So I guess the weird thing is just in my, in my kind
of age group and in myobservations of people I'm
seeing especially younger peoplecoming up.
It's like everyone has anxiety,what the fuck.
And it's not.
It's not something that's new.

(31:10):
Anxiety is not new.
I mean, the Greeks, the ancientGreeks, had a word for it and I
was.
I was reading about like mentalhealth history, like a long
time ago, and it's.
It comes from the word anxios,which means to choke.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, so does the anxiety feel like To like choke
from within.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, like they had that word then.
So it's not like a new thing inthe human condition and that's
part of that fight or flight.
Yes.
Where anxiety comes from.
But it seems like, to someextent, like, okay, it's good to
have your fight or flight inour lizard brain, right In our

(31:51):
caveman brain, like I walk pasta cave and a bear jumps out.
Now I need to be worried.
When I walk past caves, I needto be a little amped up.
I need the adrenaline, I needthe stress chemicals because I
might have to fuck and run.
Yes, you know, but we don'thave caves and bears anymore and

(32:13):
it's like that.
What is that?
Your hypothalamus?
Yeah, it's like all mistuned,and especially with the
generation a little younger thanI am.
Why, why are they so whackedwith that?

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, that just break down to think about the
differences just between youknow them growing up now and the
way we grew up.
Yeah, I feel bad for them.
What did we?
How could we have anxiety?
We had to be outside playingall day.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah Well, we had, like normal probably, anxiety,
like oh, I got to pass a testExactly, and then you resolve it
.
Like you get anxious aboutpassing a test and then you take
the test and then the anxietyresolves, like there's a reason,
like it's okay.
It's okay to be a littleworried or a little hyped about

(33:07):
something.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
That's normal, it should be.
Yeah, that's normal.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, but to just be like anxious for nothing.
And their lives, our lives,just even the last 20 years have
become so much moreexponentially comfortable.
You know, we know everything.
We have phones on us to callfor.
We're never abandoned ortrapped Like what the hell did

(33:33):
we do 20 years ago, like you hadto go to a pay phone and
remember?
A number.
Yes, you know it was weird.
Or to like drive somewhere youmight get fucking lost and end
up in another state because youfucking didn't have the map yeah
the.
Mcnally fucking turned theright way.
So now everything's so laid out, it's so easy.

(33:56):
There's not a lot of challenge.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
So when we are presented with a challenge, we
don't know how to manage it.
Everything is so accessible.
You know computers, Information.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, just information Overload.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Overload.
Our eyes are the first toprocess information and it's I
mean, think about what your eyesprocess yeah, and it's going.
So your brain is firing offfrom the time you wake up all
day long and you're justprocessing stuff and you know
we're going and now, okay, wehave this laid out and this laid

(34:35):
out and we have this, okay, andwe have to do this now.
Well, no, not that.
Well, now that, no, the kidshave this after school and then
that after school on this dayand that day, and this day and
that day, and it sounds likecalm.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, is it like trying to be perfect, like a lot
of chasing perfection?

Speaker 2 (34:55):
I'm sure for some, I'm sure for some, that's still
going to ring.
I don't think that's ever goingto go anywhere where you know
keeping up with the Joneses.
I think that's always going tobe out there.
So, like you know, my kidsdoing this and my kids going to
this school and they scored thison their SATs or whatnot, but
you know, I'm sure that's goingto always go on in some social

(35:20):
circles more than others.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
I mean, and that seemed to be something that was
always there.
You know, I'm kind of like I'mlike looking at new things.
I'm like what's the new thing?
What's going to be our bigfucking problem in five, 10, 20
years with that?
And the thing I can't quitewrap my head around is just like

(35:43):
, yeah, the new anxiety and it's.
Did we shield kids too much?
Did we shield them from failing?
Did we shield them from danger?
Did we shield them too much Towhere they don't know how to
handle anything?
Now they're just they're.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
You know, hypothalamus isn't fucking tuned
Well you know it's againbecause it's new I never saw so
many young people with this shit.
I don't remember anybody havinganxiety when I was like in high
school or anything Like chronic.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
I guess you'd say it's chronic.
It's chronic and it's over,nothing Like there's no bear.
There's no bear.
But your brain keeps tellingyou there's a bear which is just
hump and stress, chemicalssending in and substance abuse
and drugs and shit like that.
And it's like this, it's almostlike this shutdown anxiety

(36:44):
where people just it can anxiety.
They just avoid.
Yeah, like I don't know howmany in it and it's ramping up
just like people cancel things,just all the time or just ghost.
You like I'll have work likeemployees for my business that
would just shut down and ghostand not pick up the phone Like

(37:06):
younger people.
And it's like this weird, likethey can't handle anything, like
when something actually comesup for like a confrontation,
they just completely they don'thave the skills yeah, it's like
they were we're not taught howto deal with.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
You know failure, rejection.
You know these are things thatare going to go on throughout
our lives.
I mean you know we're not goingto fail.
I fail so many times a day andyou're going to get into a
confrontation and you're goingto lose sometimes, sometimes
you're fucking wrong and that'sokay, it's perfectly okay.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
That's what like getting a disagreement and be
like, yeah, okay, and you makeyour point, and then they make
their point.
You're like oh man, I fuckinglost that one.
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah, they were right, theydon't have that.
Yeah, would that fall under?
People don't do that no there's, they have to be.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
No, I'm right, yeah, right, you're not going to know
like scared of it.
And they would just rather shutdown than bother.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Look, if we're having a debate on this you know
you're not going to be scared ofit, and they would just rather
shut down than bother.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Look, if we're having a debate on something and we're
having a rock star conversationabout it, I have no problem.
I'll respect your point of view, yeah absolutely.
You know, and that's okay.
And if we all thought the sameit'd be so dang boring.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh, yeah, homogenous.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Imagine.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, that would, as long as everyone doesn't think
like me.
That would be really bad, thatcould be scary, but yeah, yeah.
No, I don't want to think aboutthat.
I need balance.
My wife balances me.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
There's good balance.
It's ying and yang right Yep.
Yeah, but just and especiallyafter COVID.
Like COVID just ramped everyonethe fuck up.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Like well, it kept everybody isolated.
It kept everybody isolated, itinstilled fear.
So, of course, people wanted toisolate, and then everything
became accessible.
You could.
Your laundry could be picked up, your groceries could be
dropped off your booze, yourliquor, your drugs the home
delivery stuff is.

(39:34):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
I see that you don't have to go interact, you don't.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
So now people are doing everything behind a
computer screen and when they goout it's like seeing more
social anxieties.
They call it a goryphobic.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Is that a goryphobic?

Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's when you're afraid to leave your house.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
period, but I'm sure that's ramped up after COVID Big
time you probably quadrupledthe amount of agoraphobes, if
not more Give them a reason toleave.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
What's the reason to leave?
There's not, yeah.
And then by the time it comesto happen it was that movie,
sigourney Weaver, I think shedid a movie years ago and I
believe she was agoraphobic inthat movie.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
Oh, I didn't see it.
I can't remember the name of it.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
But that just so, starting with the isolation with
the kids.
You go into school, you're notgoing to school here.
We're going to school.
Okay, not all kids can havecomputers.
What are we going to do withthat?
Remember where I was living inWashington, at one of the
parking rides they had a mobileWi-Fi so the families in the
rural areas could bring theirkids so they could connect to

(40:51):
the Wi-Fi, so they could dotheir schooling.
Okay, now the kids are inschool, they're out of school,
they're being schooled at home,they're doing this so they don't
know what's going on and kidsneed routine.
If kids don't have routine,then anxiety and we have all
this stuff going on.
So the kids, the younger kids,were thrown out of whack, I mean

(41:11):
, and it just kind of snowballed.
You're stuck at home.
What do you do?
You know, you lose some socialskills.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I felt horrible for the like teenage kids through
that you know.
Maybe sixth grade through, youknow senior year in high school
that had to fucking hit hard,especially in the bad states
with the bad lockdowns that hadto hit hard.
And what's so fucked up isthose people weren't in danger.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
It was that fear that was instilled.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
But they were just well and like I can't imagine,
just like, oh there's thisinvisible thing outside that
could kill me, and just being soconcerned because they hyped
that so hard and it's almostlike they played to our fears.
I mean, the media does thatanyway.
That's how they get eyeballs,that's how social media, that's

(42:11):
how you get eyeballs.
You get eyeballs with fear.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
So think about it Every time you turn on the news.
We start our day offtraumatizing ourselves.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, right, you know .

Speaker 2 (42:19):
That is true, but really.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
You want to turn on the evening traumatization, yeah
.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
What's headlining tonight?

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah, yeah.
What do you need to worry aboutnow?
I know it's like I don't knowwhy I do this to myself, but I
like the weird scam ones, likeall the weird scams that they
always put on the news, and likesocial media and it's like
don't ever give your telephonearea code over the phone number
because somebody is going tosteal your voice and kill your

(42:51):
dog.
It's like these, really weird.
I'm like geez, I got to worryabout this now.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
I don't pay attention .

Speaker 2 (42:57):
No, and it's see it's overload.
It is it's overload.
It's like we need to makethings simple again.
Yeah.
We need to slow down.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
And I feel like we're safer than ever.
With technology, Everyone'shouse has a camera.
Everyone's cell phone can betracked.
I really feel like that hasjust we're probably the safest
we've been.
And it's and we're more scaredthan ever about like even kids,

(43:36):
like raising kids, right, and Ifind myself a little.
I don't know doing this myself,but like we're worried that
they're going to get abducted orsomething all the time.
That's like the biggest fear.
But then we have the AmberAlert system, right One, which

(43:56):
is a great tool, absolutely.
But two, the last fucking 20Amber Alerts I've gotten have
been one of the parents in likea custody dispute.
So it's like, okay, our kidsgetting snatched off the streets
Probably not as much as youthink they are, but it's an

(44:18):
anxiety thing, like we're fear,we're scared of something that's
probably not going to happen,not saying don't take
precautions, not saying don't besafe, not saying don't be smart
.
But I mean the kids kind ofsuffer on that one too, because
we used to just get let out thedoor, bye.
Yeah, come home when the streetlights are on.

(44:39):
And there was probably way morekidnapping, said there was
probably way more sexualassaults on children than and
child molest.
We just didn't know about it asmuch.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
We only had what NBC, cbs and ABC News oh yeah, and
no social media.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
There wasn't all this fear propaganda all the time
Like, oh my God, you know, likesome kid in Canada got stole off
their front lawn five years ago.
Okay, that's not saying itcan't and doesn't happen, but
it's so you know that's got tobe like a mental health thing
Like this is so rare.
Why are you worried about this?

(45:22):
Like veterans who used to havePTSD, I remembered talking with
people and stuff like that afterwe came back from Afghanistan
and talking with other war vetsand they're like yeah, you know
one of the terrorists or AlQaeda from over there could
track me down in my house and,you know, kill me.

(45:43):
Or like if I'm out at arestaurant and they know me and
you know I'm going to getattacked or my family's going to
get attacked.
It's like an irrational fear ofsomething that's most likely
not going to happen.
I mean that's way off there sohow do we, how do we deal with
that kind of stuff too, Is itlike?

Speaker 2 (46:04):
well, you have to.
You have to backtrack.
When did you first feel thatirrational fear?
Very, very first time, and nottalking in that particular
moment, between 807 and 80810.
What made you feel it?
What?
When was the very first timeyou felt that?

(46:24):
If this wasn't the first time,when was the very first time?
How old were you?
That very first time Cause itcould just be a trigger response
also.
So, thinking about when youvery very first felt that
uncomfortableness, what wasgoing on at that time?

Speaker 1 (46:42):
So for a parent, projecting one of their problems
onto their kids is kind of whatwe're talking about, and that
parent maybe has that irrationalfear, that irrational problem,
and they've projected that ontotheir kids.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Unfortunately, and coming from a good place, I'm
sure I mean I don't have kids,but I'm sure, coming from a good
place, they don't want them tohave that.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
They don't want to put them through that, yeah
Right, but it's probably likewe're talking about getting
abducted, like if I talk to 10parents my age, five of them are
probably horribly worried aboutthat.
They're not worried about caraccidents, which is the most
likely way to get hurt or die.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
Well, it's something that the severity of it is so
much grander, or in that mindset.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, oh yeah.
That would be way more horribleof a thought.
Right so that's to think ofthem being murdered versus a car
accident.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah, there's a lot of things that play into factor
on that stuff too you know.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
But like, if I talk to those 10 parents and five of
them are worried, I mean I thinkthey just got fucking
traumatized by news information.
Well, when we see it repeatedly, so how the fuck do you address
that?

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Repeatedly, repeatedly.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Go back to the first time you've watched the news and
write about it.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Right, as my brother says, I just don't watch the
news.
He has this place, he goes toget the highlights and that's it
.
He's like I don't do that.
He's like I don't start my daylike that at least that's smart
Like okay, kid, I probablyshould do the same, you know,
and then we do it.
But if it's around us all thetime, you would think we would

(48:33):
eventually desensitize from it.
Yeah.
But we haven't gotten there yet.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
I feel like I kind of did, like maybe I paid more
attention to it as it startedramping up and political news
and all that crap.
It's like who cares man?
Yeah, like you, just kind of.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Is it worth it?

Speaker 1 (49:01):
No, because once again you're sitting there
worrying about something thatyou have zero control over and
is probably not going to happen,like the world's gonna end
because Hulk Hogan's going toget elected president.
Well, one probably not, and twoprobably not.
And even if it does, you ain'tgoing to stop it.

(49:25):
So why the hell are you worriedabout it, right?

Speaker 2 (49:28):
Right.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
And that's a big thing in mental health isn't it,
control it is.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
And the conversation that I've had with clients,
whether it be in the prison, inthe hospital or in the community
.
What evidence do you have tosupport that thought?
What concrete evidence do youhave to support that?
Well, I was feeling.
Okay, a feeling isn't evidence.
We have to think about it andput it's putting your thoughts

(49:55):
on trial.
Exactly.
What do we have to balance thisout?
And, in that, taking thatmoment to pause to distract
ourselves from that anxiety,because now you're trying to
think about it.
Yeah.
Okay, maybe, so you have toconvince yourself that it's not

(50:15):
true.
Have that internal dialogue.
This is an irrational thought.
Going on a roller coaster ride,we'll just say, oh my God, I'm
going to be the one it's goingto get stuck.
I'm stuck upside down and I'mall anxious and I'm sweaty, I'm
like a butterfly, but it's agame.
Okay, realistically, how manyof you are right?

(50:38):
It's like okay, I know thisisn't going to really nothing's
really going to happen, but thatbecomes part of so I've made it
into like a game, like Ipsyched myself out right before
I get on the ride, where I'mlike, no, I can't do this.
And it's like the fuck, youcan't get your ass on that
roller coaster ride and do itand it's fun.

(50:59):
But so we have to weigh outwhat is what's logical and
what's not logical.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
It's like fear is so illogical itself.
Like I have a friend and he's avery logical and he doesn't
listen to podcasts anyway, soI'll talk about it.
He's a very logical, logicalman, smart, intelligent, and
he's scared of lightning likeyou wouldn't believe.

(51:29):
Like if he hears lightning, helike runs to the center or
whatever house he's in.
Wow, like in the house he'sscared of lightning.
It's not just like outside in afield with a metal pole in your
hand, like the dude's scared inthe house and I was like man
buddy.
They literally use this as likea this is like a turn of phrase

(51:50):
like you're more likely to getstruck by lightning.
It's literally that improbable.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
But he has that fear.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, it's like, even when you realize it, you almost
can't help it.
But I guess he's, I guessthat's not something you're
going to.
Like, try to work on.
Like you're not going to go totherapy, like I want to be less
scared of lightning.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Some stuff like that.
That, no, that just reminds memy grandmother.
If it was thunder and lightningoutside, we couldn't be on the
phone, we couldn't have thewater going Like, we couldn't
take a shower, wash the dishesor anything like that.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Oh okay, and then there was someone who was
sitting on their toilet.
I saw this, you could look itup, it's out there somewhere.
Someone was sitting on theirtoilet and lightning struck, hit
some water pipe or whatever andlike split the toilet, like the
whole ceramic bowl just went,no, so it's like all right, well

(52:53):
, if it's your time, that's oneof those moments.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Right, and how few?
One in how many?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (53:06):
That that's going to happen.
You can't just go on worriedabout everything.
I guess you got to make thatdetermination like is it worth
it to keep worrying about theshit, and what is it keeping me
from doing?

Speaker 2 (53:17):
And I know just myself.
I have that internal battle allthe time with myself, because I
do run on the anxious side, butso I have this dialogue.
It's like, lisa, okay, what isgoing on?
And you know and like, okay,you have absolutely no reason to
have that thought.

(53:38):
Okay.
Where did you even come up withthat?
And then it's like, okay, jamup the tunes or whatever.
But you know, we have to beokay with having, with talking
to ourselves, having thatinternal dialogue to have these
conversations so we can figureout is this a rational or is

(54:00):
this irrational, is this logicalor nonsensical, like what's
going on here, and it's okay todo that.
Yeah, it's five minutes, fiveminutes, have at it.
Yeah.
And trying to teach people thatthat's okay to do.
Also is everybody's so rush,rush, rush, rush nowadays too,

(54:22):
which I think contributes to theanxiety.
We have to rush and go here,and we have to rush and go there
, and nope, we gotta get thisone to ball practice and that
one's got to go here.
And then we have to get a dogto the vet and, like I think,
everybody's lives are so busy.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
You'd see that.
Oh see, that's a weird one forme.
I feel like.
I feel like certain groups ofpeople are very busy like
parents, young kids, activities,working.
There's that demographic,definitely that I feel like, and

(55:03):
this is just anecdotal but Ifeel like everyone else is kind
of less busy, like not busyenough, like young people, like
a lot of them, full-time jobnumbers are way down, young
people in the workforce is waydown.
And then, with all the you know, order your groceries, order

(55:25):
this order that I Feel like alot of people are just sitting
in their house, girl on theirphone.
Just sitting on the device it's.
It's a weird thought, but butthere's, I feel like people were
busier like 20 years ago, likereal busy, and then like

(55:46):
technology didn't make your lifeas easy so you have to like go
do stuff.
I.
Don't know, it seems like rush,like that's the cliche that we
think of.
Is this rush, rush, rush?
I don't know.
I see a lot of people justsitting in pajamas scrolling
their phone.
I Mean, I do it.

(56:06):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Enough I do my share.
Yeah for sure.
That's, you know, part.
Well, you know succumbing totechnology and where it's taking
us and everything, and but youknow people get, get caught in
that and that it does likebecome an addiction In and of
itself.
Yeah, you know, you've gotthese, you're, you're firing off

(56:32):
your brains like oh, oh, oh, oh, you know, and that's like the
worst thing to do is to be onyour phone before you go to bed.
Yeah, yeah, we all do, we all dothat one sleep disturbances,
which that can lead to, you know, anxiety and impression.
Yeah you know if we're notgetting enough rest and Because,

(56:53):
like, what is your sleephygiene?
Look like?

Speaker 1 (56:55):
Yeah that's a big thing, and I've heard that was
mental health, sleep hygiene.
Yeah, so what is?
What is that?

Speaker 2 (57:03):
It's basically just trying to have the same routine
nightly, so make it andeverybody's different.
You know what they recommend,what seven to nine hours of
sleep, but each person isdifferent.
But kind of having you know thesame routine before you go to
bed, like maybe you take the dogfor a walk, you, you know you

(57:30):
clean up, you know you get yourjammies on, you read for a half
hour, you turn everything offand you go to sleep.
Okay so in getting yourself intothat routine and, you know,
waking up at the same time.
So trying to keep that assteady as possible can help us
because there's actually there'sCalmness in our routine.

(57:53):
So if we know we're gonna go tobed and this is what our
nightly routine is gonna looklike, will become calmer,
getting towards that, because weknow that's routine, we know
that's how it's gonna work.
I'm gonna put my jammies on,I'm gonna recap my book, I'm
gonna read for half hour and I'mgonna drift off to sleep.
That having that routine is veryimportant and that because that

(58:17):
sleep hygiene if we neglect ourhygiene, like if we don't go to
the dentist- yeah we start todecay, yeah, and then you know
we're not getting our brains notgetting the rest that it needs,
and while again it's, somepeople need four hours of sleep
a night.
That's fine.
But, you know we're not gettingthat rest, so Just having a

(58:38):
routine to it.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Absolutely, is the important part.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Yeah, and maintaining it.
So we have to take care of itdaily.
We should take care of it, weshould try to develop and not
have it be stressful, like justsomething you enjoy.
Before you, maybe practice somemindfulness before you, you
know you go to bed, have somelavender or pillow spray, you
know it's your reading and soyou have that helps the senses

(59:05):
and then you have thispleasantness, this calmness that
comes over sounds nice pillowspray, lavender pillow spray.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
That just made me like a little relaxed and tired
just hearing on the powersuggestion.
Yeah, that's true, made afriend I mean sleep hygiene.
So he was suffering probablyfrom a little anxiety and
alcoholism and he got suggestedto buy like like old-school

(59:32):
pajamas, like like EbenezerScrooge pajamas.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
I think one describe to man.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
No, like this, like like old man pajamas, and he
like puts them on at the sametime and like built a routine.
But that tremendously helpedhim is taking little steps like
that.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
It is to to build that routine.
It does take a long time tobuild a routine and we can fall
out of it.
You know, just like that, soeasy.
But once we do that and we havethat, it's Our bodies feel
better, our mind is rested, ourmoods aren't as like.
You know.
I've seen that thing.
You know you just don't get anight's sleep and one thing

(01:00:14):
doesn't work and you're justlike angry at the whole world.
Yeah, Well, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
I mean speaking of sleep, and I mean this is
probably somewhere in mentalhealth and comfort, but this was
a weird one.
I was talking about this theother day with somebody.
But like I Mean like we havehundred dollar pillows now in
4,000, 5,000, 10,000 dollar bedsand we have sleep watches, like

(01:00:41):
you know, track your sleep andpeople are like measuring, like
how good asleep that I get, howmany times and they got our and
far sleep apnea mask and theyhave mouth tape and they have
Melatonin and all this sleepstuff.
All this sleep stuff.
It's like are we obsessed withit a little bit too, and like

(01:01:03):
the mattresses.
Okay, 70 years ago people justslept on an old mattress for
years.
It's just like a cotton pillowLike, and they didn't worry
about it too much.
And now, as I get older, I needmore pillows.
I Need more, better pillows.
Like my fucking arm falls asleepand shit Like, why the fuck did

(01:01:25):
my arm?
Well, that's the next step.
So like like I turned 38 yearsold and all of a sudden my
shoulder just falls asleep.
All the time it was like my38th birthday present at some
point.
It's just been asleep every timesince, like I have to do like
nerve stretches acupuncturistand get that nerve-taking care

(01:01:48):
of how the fuck did people dealwith sleep like 50 years, like I
have to talk to like a Somebodywho's 80 or 90?
I bet they still sleep withjust like a regular mattress and
a pillow and they're not likeworried about it my mom still
has this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
I Don't even know how long she's had this bed for,
but I love going there and speak.
It's good to like hugs you whenyou get in it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
It's an old bed.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yes, and it just like fits you.
It's like a glove.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I think they just dealt with it.
They just dealt with whatevermatches.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Yeah, you know how all these options like nowadays
it's like we're sleeping worsenew car and we're sleeping worse
Somehow with all this shit.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
I, I swear I've been looking at this and now I've
been getting ads for thisfucking thing Because of my
stupid sleepy arm, because I'm aside sleeper, so I get like an
hour and then it's numb, andthen I get a flip and then it's
numb and I I almost bought thishorrible contraption of it like
a $300 pillow With like a slitin it for your arm that goes

(01:02:55):
underneath I.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Didn't know, they made those they do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
I found out and now you know Targeted ads want to
keep telling me over and overagain that they do exist.
I keep looking at them like,but what?
What the hell happened?
Like?
We have so many options.
We have they got sleepmeditation apps.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Let's think of everything.
Let's think about anxiety.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Too many choices too many choices many choice
thinking about it too much.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
I just need to get yellow mustard.
Yeah.
I don't need to sit there forfive minutes because there's 50
different kinds of you want thefive-star mustard, the.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
It needs to be like the highly, the most highly
rated mustard the one that comesin a barrel.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Is that that one?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Plot ploach man's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Just go for French's.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
I don't think it matters yellow mustard.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
That's it.
It's too many choices, we'represented with too many choices,
and that brings anxiety like atoothbrush, like go, try to buy
a toothbrush on Amazon.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
It'll take you a half hour.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yes and you'll end up buying something for like $400
Because we want to have and thenyou won't be able to find the,
the replacement, yeah, so thenyou gotta buy the whole thing
over again.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Anyway.
So what's it?
Start all over.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
There's, there's that anger.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
Yeah, our toothbrush budget is.
It's going through the roof.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Because we must use the electric the pursuit of
perfection is yeah it's a thing,it's making.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
I think that's making us mentally ill in some weird
way.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Well, it's definitely causing obsession with that
well, and one of the.
I wasn't all about going to seeBarbie.
When it came out I was likeOkay.
But then I kept hearing reviewsthat it was very much like
empowering, and so I'm like okay, let me check this out.

(01:04:57):
Then in the beginning, and I'mlike I'm not all down for a
musical.
Yeah but then, as it startedgoing through, there were some
really good points that weremade as far as Relationships
like with Barbie and Ken youknow Ken never felt like he was
good enough but Barbie neverpaid attention to him.

(01:05:20):
I can do everything myself andthen just breaking it down and
it.
That was a movie that had a lotof lessons in there, so
definitely not the stereotypethat I fell into.
When it first came out I waslike, you know, I grew up
playing Barbies.
What am I in it?
Yeah, I just movie, but thethings that they talked about

(01:05:42):
thought patterns, you know itwas really.
I mean I do suggest it beingwatched because there are some
very good basic fundamentals ofpsychology that are even in that
.
And you know that raceperfection Nobody's perfect.
Yeah nobody's perfect and wehave to give ourselves a break
on that.
We're flawed, you know.
I like to tell clients, youknow we're perfectly imperfect.

(01:06:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, we really are, andthere's no, you're full of
snakes.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
I'm full of snakes, just the way it is.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Yeah, we're gonna accept that Lot of it.
So Acceptance to and just like,yeah, like the control thing
not trying to control and itfucks you up trying to like
fucking sleep watches man.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
I refuse, I refuse you know what I found?

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
it was fucking me up.
A sleep watch was fucking me upbecause I'd I'd get like my
sleep score and be like 56 andthen you're upset with yourself,
and then I'm like man, I guessI am a little tired, like we're
obsessed with like eight hoursand it has to be the most
perfect sleep and I can't feelgood unless I get it.
But if you didn't know how muchyou slept and you didn't worry

(01:06:57):
about it too much and you justslept and then woke up, Right
when you get that sleep hygiene.
Yeah, you don't have to, youdon't have to think you're like
I slept, that's what I sleptexactly, and even if the hours
are a little off, okay, maybe itdidn't.
Maybe only get sex, who cares?

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
right.
Your body might not need sonice.
It might be 10.
Yeah, some might might be fiveor six, but as long as we get
make time for that, you knowit's important and Be the sight
of the again.
Gotta stop making it socomplicated.
Just break it down and keep itsimple and understand that,

(01:07:38):
whatever, it is still gonna bethere.
Yeah, you know Acceptance.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Yeah, it's a little stoicism right so we talked
about that, I guess I Guessanother kind of thought is.
So, as a mental healthprofessional, where do you see,
I guess mental health going andkind of I guess pharmaceutical

(01:08:09):
companies seem to be a big partof it, and I feel like there's a
fucking crisis brewing in theresomewhere there, I agree, I'm
not a big pharma person myself.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
However, I do understand that For, let's say,
the mood disorders where it is alegitimate chemical imbalance
in the brain, you know we mightneed, you know, a medication to
help.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
Depression.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Depression, the anxiety depression.
Yep, we're talking aboutCarrying the diagnosis of
schizophrenia, orderlinepersonality disorder, bipolar
disorder.
Those are all mood disorderscorrect and that's legitimate.
It's a chemical imbalance, sowe do need To have something to

(01:09:00):
help with that.
Even with depression, you knowit is the chemical in our brain,
but we don't have to be on theantidepressants forever.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
See, I've heard terrible things about like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
SSRIs.
There, you know, it's whoMedications you know, just give
it time.
I mean, how long?

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Johnson and Johnson baby powder, and now there's
class action suits so who knows,in 30 years on every other
fucking thing oh these are gonnayou know be.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
I know they were tying depression.
I just just watching somedocumentary.
They were tying depression tobirth control pills really.
Yeah.
Play with hormones Hello.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
You start fucking around with too much.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
I Think we're just we don't know we don't know enough
, we don't.
And if the so I had a.
I've had clients before who area little you know, who've been
on the paranoia side.
I've been like, well, I don'twant to take that drug.
And because I just I saw thecommercial and I did research

(01:10:06):
and all the side effects and didit, did it, did it, did it, did
it, did it.
Like you're a hundred percentright.
Your concerns are legitimate.
It was like you know, becausenowadays, if you look at it, the
side effects oh, they're crazylonger than the talking about
the medication that they'retrying to sell, like they just

(01:10:27):
have to cover their asses.
So they're gonna list everysingle side effect, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
But we still don't know thelong, long, long term effects of
what these could do.
And now there's not enough.
So we have you know and, butagain, I'm not.
I'm not on the medical side,just in.

(01:10:49):
Yeah knowing what I know aboutthe medications my clients and
my patients have worked with.
You know some of them need tobe monitored for I think yeah,
you have to get blood levelschecked for some of them.
You know there's certain thingsand when you stick to what the
treatment plan actually says andfollow with the medications and

(01:11:10):
the behavioral health therapyhand-in-hand- yeah they've got
to go together.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
I've, I've, I've heard that before and
unfortunately, you see, likelike regular doctors, like your
GP, writing people prescriptionsfor Zoloft and ship man like
candy Gabapentin.
Now to is like, from what Iunderstand, when you're taking

(01:11:40):
these powerful psychoactivechemicals, you need therapy to
go along with it, because yourbrain's now kind of rewiring
Right.
You know that's changing andbalancing out some things and
you need that therapy to goalong with it.
Mm-hmm and then eventually thegoal is you don't need it, not

(01:12:00):
to stay on it forever, like getgood habits and then get off.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
Exactly, it's like using the tools together.
Yeah and when we we have thatgood, that good mixture, and we
are doing it together properly,as prescribed, being honest with
our therapist yeah, making theprogress, changing the behaviors

(01:12:28):
, changing the thought processto a healthier one, reframing
those negative thoughts to thepositive, we can Maybe start to
wean ourselves off of theantidepressants.
Now, unfortunately, that maynot be all the time.
Some people may just have thatchemical imbalance, and that's

(01:12:50):
okay too.
It's okay if we need to go onantidepressants because we just
had a huge loss in our family orin our life's period.
It doesn't have to be forevereither.
So but the talk therapy is verykey and that's-.
Shouldn't that be number one.
It should be number one.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
It should be number one Because I feel like we just
we're too easy to just scriptWell, yeah, well and that's just
in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Again, just my opinion.
You know, that's becauseinsurance companies, they don't
wanna pay for the long termpsychotherapy.
So here's a pill to make youfeel better.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
Yeah, the pill's cheaper.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
Yeah.
Then the long term, which couldtake years, to go through
trauma, which could take years,you know, depending on what the
person has going on in theirlives, their trauma, their
present relationship.
What a myriad of things theydon't wanna do.
That you know.
They want the quick fix.

(01:13:50):
They want a bill.
You know we're told, it'singrained in our heads you do
not make a diagnosis the firstsession.
You do not make a diagnosis.
You do not make a diagnosis.
You wanna get paid.
You make a diagnosis.
You better make that goddamndiagnosis or the insurance
company's not gonna give you apenny.
Where's the patient-centeredcare?

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
Well, insurance fuck that up everywhere Very much so
I mean insurance Very much so.
All insurance is fucked, pricesare all out of whack because of
insurance, and then the personusing the product has no say so
on the cost of the product.
And then somebody else ispaying for it in an office
somewhere that's nowhere in thedoctor-patient relationship and

(01:14:32):
they're deciding, makingdecisions on your healthcare,
mental healthcare, whatever itis.
That's a fuck thing.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
It's absolutely.
And I worked with acommunity-based service and we
got referrals from the insurancecompany for individuals
Medicare, medicaid who qualifiedfor certain programs, which
were great, but the guidelinesto have to get paid.

(01:15:01):
Are you trying to help people?
Yeah, like you're almost sayinglike hi, here is this, but oh,
we can't quite have it yetbecause you just didn't complete
this one little thing.
It's like okay, these peoplelegitimately need help.

(01:15:24):
Yeah, you know they're notworking with wrap-around
community services for no reason.
They're trying to get out of thesystem that they're just stuck
in.
Yeah, unfortunately, and that'svery then it's sad to see, and
especially our depressedcounties and our depressed areas
.
You know, I saw something once.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
I mean depressed counties, depressed areas.
You're talking about financialMm-hmm.
I saw something once.
I don't know if it was in that.
Oh, what was that?
Was that Hector in the?
Pursuit of happiness, orsomething, will Smith, the
pursuit of happiness.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
No, no, no, I don't know, it was a great movie.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
It was about a psychologist, no a psychiatrist.
It was a psychiatrist who wastreating patients and rich,
wealthy patients and he justkept having them for years and
years and years and years.
It's a great movie because he'dhave the same patients with the
same problem.
They weren't getting any better.

(01:16:30):
So he decided what's the key tohappiness and he went on a
little journey for it, and Ithink there's a book written
about it too.

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
Sounds familiar, hector I don't know if you put
in.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
Hector, it'll pop up on the phone.
It'll pop up on the phone.

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):
See, this is great, Very good, but one of the things
someone said in that movie theywere explaining why all these
people are unhappy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
And he says the richer the zip code, the more
shrinks there are.
Mm-hmm, that's fucked upProbably true.
You know, I think it's a greatbook, probably true.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):
You know, and that's a whole, because I've worked in
private practice.
Briefly, very briefly, it justwasn't a structure for me.
I need more structure.
Not good with managing thattime and I guess probably coming
just from the background andworking in the community, you

(01:17:29):
know to have young, you knowclients who you know want to
continue coming but they can'tafford it, their insurance won't
cover it.
It's heartbreaking and it'slike let me try to.
You know I can get you a freesession.

(01:17:50):
You know, and I'm trying towork.
You know, and it comes down Nowyou can't afford mental health
care.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
That's fucked up.
There's definitely a breakdownin that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
It's got to be accessible for everyone.
And yeah, you can be.
We're talking about it morethan ever, thank goodness.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
But almost doing less than ever Like actual steps.
It's like everyone likes totalk about it, like let's talk
about mental health and thedestigmatization is good.
I think, that's been a greatthing of getting people to be
able to like come forward.
Absolutely and be like okay, Ineed help, I need to do some

(01:18:29):
rock therapy, and they got thoselike better help and stuff like
that.
Where?
you can just, you can justre-texting and that's pretty
handy If you need it, it's easy,you don't have to go drive
somewhere and be weird Right.
So those are like greatresources.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
But as a whole between like pharmaceutical
companies, the government,healthcare insurance companies,
it's like we've done worse andworse and worse at it and I know
great strides are being made incommunities as far as having
mental health professionals,licensed clinicians, writing

(01:19:07):
with designated officers formental health calls, having
crisis teams to come out tomental health calls and such.
So it is getting better.
But how do we stop that cycle?
Because they're stuck in that,it's the constant.

(01:19:28):
And now they've become, they'rein the system and they're on
the hamster wheel.
And how do we get them off ofthe hamster wheel?
You know destigmatizing.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
That's a weird one.
I don't even know how I said itthe first time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
It's like word salad I can't say it again Words, I
could just go with word salad.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
Destigmatization yes, there we go, man.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
You got it twice.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
No In Fuego number three.
I don't even know if I'm sayingit right.
I've said it twice and now itdoesn't make sense anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
Now you're thinking about it too hard, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
So to leave out on, maybe like kind of a weird or a
funny note?
I guess I would wonder this,Because you've heard a lot of
people say a lot of stuff andtell a lot of stories in the
years you've been doing this.
You already kind of get whereI'm going.
What is the weirdest thinganyone's ever told you about?

(01:20:33):
There has to be something thatsticks out to you.
It's like what the fuck?
Like where you're sitting thereas their provider and they're
telling you this and maybeyou're trying to keep the
straight face.
You're like holy fucking shit,what?

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
Okay, you got one.
Oh, my God, I do so working inmental health and wraparound
services, so we had our owncaseloads.
But if someone came in incrisis, obviously whoever was on
would go and see them.
So everybody was busy.
So I'm like gosh, because youjust hear stories.

(01:21:14):
We have our meetings every dayand so we know these characters
and such and they're saying thatthey're in crisis and I'm like
okay, gotta catch up on my notes.
Like okay, I'll be right out.
So we go into one of theoffices in there and he's pacing

(01:21:35):
around and he has a trench coaton in one of the golfing hats,
so it's his usual kind of dressand he was handicapped like a
flasher trench coat.
That would be your first thoughtyes, that would definitely be
your first thought and he washandicapped, so he had lost part
of his arm.
So, comes in, and he's like Ijust I'm so frustrated, I'm so

(01:22:02):
frustrated and I can't believeI'm in this crisis right now and
I'm like, okay, you know, I'mlike what happened?
You know what, what happenedthat has you this activated, you
know?
And he's like, well, I just youknow, I'm trying to be patient
and I'm trying to be a goodboyfriend and stuff, but my, my
lady won't have sex with me.
Okay.

(01:22:23):
I said that's a crisis.
It's a crisis.
He's like, yeah, I don't thinkI should have to masturbate if I
have a girlfriend.
I'm like, okay, he was faceread.

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
He believed it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
He was in belief.

Speaker 1 (01:22:43):
He believed it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):
Believing he was in a mental health crisis.

Speaker 1 (01:22:50):
To him he was.
That's a hell of a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
He, he was and I can't believe.
And then I'm like I every timeI feel like I thought.
I always think I'm done havingthe healthy masturbation talk.
I always think I'm done withthat.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
Okay, what's the healthy masturbation talk?

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Well, because, as you know, that can be an addiction
also.
Yeah.
Masturbations, where you knowyou're rubbing yourself raw, and
such so people who compulsivelymasturbate.
You know these are questionsyou have to ask and everything
you know.
Well, is it disrupting your day?
Well, no, you know, so it'shealthy.
What's not okay?
Well, you're not, you know.

(01:23:29):
You're not saying no, I'm goingto be late to work, no, I can't
go to the kids.
You're not interrupting yourday, You're not physically
harming yourself, You're fine,it's healthy, it's natural,
You're fine.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
Well, that makes me feel better.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
It is.
It's a healthy and gentle partof life.
And then people are like what,yeah, what do you think they did
to women years ago in the coldages, when they had presented
with hysteria?

Speaker 1 (01:24:01):
Oh yeah, they masturbated them.
That was a real thing.
That was weird that they werethat dumb.
It was like women don't haveorgasms.
I know this Like that.
That's what the medicalcommunity thought.
Just a no such thing, we're notgoing to talk about it.

(01:24:22):
And some guy an inventivevibrator.

Speaker 2 (01:24:25):
And now any woman with psychosis, here you go.
Hey.
I mean, it's just, it's wild,that's a weird story, though I
like the face red, she won't.

Speaker 1 (01:24:40):
She won't, I should not Was he older?

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
This was.
This was a population, butprobably between my age and your
age.
Okay.
So older populate like middlemid-age population.
I'm not old.
Well, you're younger than I am.
Yeah sure I've upgraded tovintage or still classic.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
Oh no, I heard classic rock was like like
Metallica, like oldies.
They're playing like I know sostuff from the 80s is oldies but
freaks me out.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
I know, but I that's what I still jam out to so.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
Well, thank you for coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
Thank you so much.
This was a good time yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
It's an enlightening conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
Hopefully everyone you know learned something and
got some stories out of it, butI hope so, you know, and I, just
people, just the education isfree.
Yeah.
You know, donate some time.
Yeah, you know Harry Chapindoes great stuff in the
community with the food banksand everything check out
volunteering.
Yeah, you know, it takes acommunity it really does to take

(01:25:51):
care of the community.
It is time that the communitystarts working together and
really, you know, starts helpingout those that are vulnerable.

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
Even from a selfish perspective.
A lot of times, if you'rehaving a problem with you know,
maybe some anxiety or depressiona good thing to do is to go
help other people 100%.

Speaker 2 (01:26:13):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and people aren't
your thing.
Animal shelters yeah, they arealways looking for volunteers.

Speaker 1 (01:26:20):
There's a lot, you know.
There's a lot of people thatwere like drug addicts or having
problems, and recovered andthey ended up working with
animals.
It's incredible, but that, hey,that's a path to recovery,
that's a path to your own.

Speaker 2 (01:26:34):
It's also a form of kind of like you do therapy with
someone with antisocialpersonality disorders that have
them take care of an animal.
We'll open up that littleGrinch thing and then when it
opens.
Yeah, they've learned nowcompassion because they've taken

(01:26:57):
care of this.
I said in some prisons they dothat, where they'll let them
have obviously earned but tohave that and a lot of them have
programs that the offenders canwork towards as far as training
dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
That seems like a good idea and they go like to
the next level to the next level.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
So they're service animals and it really does help
those individuals withantisocial personality disorder
learn the compassion.
And there was a gentleman thatI did work with in the prison
and he was training.
He had his dog, he was trainingand pretty horrific crimes.
He knew he was going to diethere.

(01:27:39):
He said I always loved my wife.
He said I would have doneanything for her in the world.
He said until I started workingwith this dog, I'm going to die
when I have to give this dog,when this dog moves on to its
next training place.
So he went from this hardenedmurderer to-.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
Loving a dog.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
Understanding the pain that he put victims through
, and his wife, who stood by hisside.
So you know, there are ways.

Speaker 1 (01:28:22):
Yeah, huh, it's really interesting.
Well, yeah, thank you.
Thank you again for coming inand sharing.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
This was a blast.
Thank you so much, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
And thanks for tuning in to everyone out there.
Catch us next time, hope you'veenjoyed.
Until then, stay out of trouble.
We'll see you in church, thanks.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unshackling the Mind: A Journey Through Mental Health

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Unshackling the Mind: A Journey Through Mental Health

Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club