Beauty For Ashes TRB #31 Alicia Chairez

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
Your host, Happy Chest andChristian-face psychotherapist,
Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wondered that are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
freedom.

SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeem Backslider.
I'm your host, Kathy Chastain.
I'm a Redeemed Backslider andI'm also a licensed
Christian-based psychotherapist.
With me today is Alicia Chavez.
I'll let her explain her nametoo in Spanish.
She lives in the Vaccaville areain California.

(00:43):
And I'm so glad she uh decidedto share her testimony with all
of us today.
So welcome, Alicia.
Thank you so much for beinghere.

SPEAKER_04 (00:52):
Thank you, Kathy.
Um I'm I'm glad to be here aswell.
And yes, um, part of mytestimony is um I was born into
Pentecost.
I was my mom's miracle child.
I actually wasn't supposed to bebe here born.
The um the testimony behind mecoming into the world um was my

(01:17):
actually my parents.
So my parents are firstgeneration apostolic, I'm second
generation.
And so um, even growing up inchurch and being, you know,
dedicated, I was dedicated atsix weeks old.
My mom um almost died having me.
It was a struggle for me to, shesaid it took six trips to the
hospital.
Um, my grand, like nobody wasthere when I was born because

(01:41):
they didn't know what was gonnahappen.
And my dad had just been saved.
So my dad actually made apromise to God saying that he
would never drink because Goddelivered my dad out of
alcoholism.
And so um, that's his owntestimony.
But um, and he made a promisethat he said that I would never
see him intoxicated, like thisbaby would never see me

(02:02):
intoxicated.
I have two older siblings whoare 14 years, we're many years
apart.
That's how you know, that's howum miracles happen because
sometimes it doesn't happenaltogether, you know.
Right, right.
Miracles happen spontaneally,right?
Um so needless to say, eventhough I was um dedicated and

(02:24):
born in church, I suffered whilein church in the sense of um
part of my my walk was I'vealways loved God since I was a
little girl.
Um I can recall five years old,I was always praying.

(02:45):
And it was and it was actuallyabout my grandma.
I was very close to mygrandmother.
My grandmother was not saved,and my grandma got sick with
cancer around five years old.
I was five.
And I started praying for mygrandma.
Well, that's the same time thatmy I was abused.
So I was I had faced um atraumatic experiences.

(03:09):
Um my parents didn't know.
My parents, of course, are inchurch.
My mom, she had Bible studies,she was a soul winner.
Um and my dad, of course, youknow, he would fix the church
and everything, but there wasabuse that was happening that
started by people that weretrusted.
Um, a relative, and then itopened up more doors to where

(03:36):
there was more abuse by otherindividuals and going to church
and um praying, but thencarrying those wounds.
How old were you when the abuseit started off around five,
five, six is when the abusestarted.

(03:59):
Um and it continued with thatparticular individual until I
was about eight.
And at the time I um we my mom,she was with one minister and
then she left and they went toanother church, like a more
independent church.

(04:21):
And I, you know, that pastor andhis wife, they were good to me.
They um I was with theirdaughters, like Sundays.
I would go to their home and youknow, um go they would take me
out for lunch.
Like they were really um lovingand they were his, I'll never
forget um her name, SisterDavid.

(04:41):
I'm just gonna put her name outthere um because she is part of
my testimony.
She um I'll I'll mention her alittle bit later, but um she had
this kindness and genuine joythat I always can recall, even
till this day, till this day.
Um, but I would go to their homeand they like invested in me,

(05:02):
but nobody knew my abuse.
Nobody knew what was going on,and um even while growing up in
church.

SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
Alicia, when you're five or six, what prevented you?
Do you remember what preventedyou from telling anyone?
Were you threatened?
Or did it did you know?
I know this sounds like a sillyquestion to someone maybe
listening, but you know, whenit's your first experience and

(05:36):
it's someone that you trust,you're not always aware that
what's happening is wrong.
I think there's an instinctivefeeling, but it would be really
easy, and many many um victimshave reported that they just
thought it was normal becausethey were kids and the person
that had abused them was oftenfamily members or someone they

(06:01):
trusted, so they didn't reallythink twice about whether or not
what was happening wasn't okay.
So did you know that what washappening was wrong?
Were you threatened not to tell,or did you just kind of know not
to tell?

SPEAKER_04 (06:18):
You know, I I kind of probably knew not to tell.
I I can't like there are vaguememories, like vague things.
Um, because it wasn't just thatindividual, so it was an
accumulation.
Um that individual, I can'tremember.
Like I remember what they did indetail.

(06:39):
I can remember when it started,but his words, I just remember
how he would say my name andthings like that.
Like that, that type of stuff.
Um, I've and part of mytestimony is I actually forgave
my abusers.
So um that abuse started withthat particular individual and
it stopped because I stood up tohim.

(07:01):
And once I stood up to him, hestopped abusing me.

SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
But by that time, there was another abuser who was
abusing me.
So it was actually a neighbor.
It was a neighbor that was afriend of my brother's.
And um that one, he actually wasthe one who told me, like, don't

(07:27):
tell anybody, don't tell yourmom.
Um, you know, like there wasthreats with that one, with that
particular individual, therewas.
Um, and at that point, I think Ihad already my mind had already
been groomed to where, you know,to keep those type of secrets
inside.
But I I wanted, I think I wantedto say something, but I

(07:53):
couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
And um this is all why going to church.
Like this is all going tochurch.
And that's where the isolationstarted to happen.
And um because there was eventhough I had ministers in my
life, you know, who werereaching, you know, I still had
this part that was so that washidden.

(08:16):
And it started developing a rootinside of me.
And it got to the point to wheremy grandma ended up, my grandma
did get healed.
My grandma did get healed, shegot sober.
Um, I had her for eight moreyears until I turned 13 is when
she passed, about 13, 12.

(08:39):
Um, but around 11 is when I gotthe Holy Ghost, and my mom went
under another pastor.
Well, in this church, there wasabuse.
To where there was a man in thechurch where he had, I believe,
been abusing children.
And because I was already beingabused by a neighbor, I think

(09:02):
this predator picked up on that.

SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Yeah, they do.
They they you can see it.
So this is now your thirdchurch.

SPEAKER_04 (09:09):
This is now my third church, yeah.
So my um that past thatindependent pastor went with
this man.
He followed, he went under thisman.
So my mom followed thatparticular minister.
So we're at under the this thirdchurch, and that it was a small
church.
And this man, he was entrusted.

(09:32):
He was somebody who was trusted,the pastor trusted him.
Um but I felt like at a veryyoung age, I had felt like I
knew, like, in the sense of whenI would go into church, there
was things that I felt.
Like I was I was very sensitiveto things.
And um this particularindividual, like I always felt

(09:54):
like something was wrong withthe church, like something was
really wrong.
Um I and I was little, and thisperson ended up targeting me.
And I'll never forget the daywhere he um I was sitting in my
mom's car in the backseat, andhe gets in.
And that's where he tries to umlike manipulate me, trying to

(10:21):
tell me like um like figuretactics to try to get what he
wanted out of me.
And somehow, somehow I slippedout the other door.
Right then and there, I thoughthe was gonna like I thought like

(10:42):
that was the point where myfirst like a real like assault
was gonna take place.
That was gonna take place and Ifought.

SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
Um was he a member of the church or was he in
leadership?
He was a member.

SPEAKER_04 (10:56):
He was he was a member, I think he was in
leadership because he had a key.
He had a key, he lived on theproperty, which was odd.
Um, did he have a family?
No, he he was an artist.
So what I knew as a child wasthat this person was an artist,
um, and he used to draw picturesof kids.

(11:21):
And this person was someone whowhere he was an usher, he um,
you know, what uh I guess whenthey collect, you know, the the
money and the money plate, yeah.
Um he was interested.
He was.
However, and my mom, she wouldinvite him over for Christmas.
So after that situationhappened, I started becoming

(11:43):
more fearful.
I couldn't sleep, um, and theroom was without a light.
Um, windows all had to becovered.
Like I I had like this fear thatstarted to come inside.
And that's when I think thingsstarted turning in my life where

(12:06):
I started developing rebellion.
And was it I didn't want to go?

SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 (12:16):
Oh no, no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
Alicia, was it the same denomination you're in now,
or was it um I know that there'salso uh uh Hispanic Apostolic
Organization?
Same same.

SPEAKER_04 (12:30):
It was yeah, no, it wasn't Apostolic Assembly, it
was ALJC.
So it was an independent umchurch.
I grew up in UPC, UPCI, andALJC.
Um my mom eventually ended upleaving.
She ended up leaving and goingunder a UPC uh pastor who

(12:53):
eventually, I believe he becameUPCI, but his son took over the
church years later.

SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
Okay.
Um I mean, not that it mattersthere is abuse in every
denomination.
Um in every I mean because thereis abuse, period, in the human
in our society.
So it really doesn't matter.
Uh it exists in the church, itexists outside of the church.
I was just curious.

SPEAKER_04 (13:18):
Yeah, no, it's it's um it is prevalent.
You know, years later, now thatI've you know, um, you know,
I've learned about trauma andwhat the effects of trauma and
you know, and nursing and umactually taking a psychology
course, well, a lifespan towhere um you learn about the

(13:39):
adolescence and you learn aboutabuse and you learn about
different things that have been,yeah, development.
And so I'm doing that now as arequisite for my nursing degree.
But um that actually, you know,the things that I've I've read
about and learned are thingsthat um when reading, you

(14:01):
actually start to understandlike how the brain changes when
trauma starts happening, right?
Right, yeah, and how um thattrauma, you know, over extension
of period of time, what it doesto the brain, and exposure and

(14:21):
more exposure, and you'reconstantly in that survival
mode, your brain changes, andthat's what ultimately happened
to me.

SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
So you were abused until what age would you say uh
over your life before you beginto rebel?

SPEAKER_04 (14:40):
So it was at 11 I got the Holy Ghost.
That particular pastor that thatman was under didn't want me to
get baptized.
I remember that.
And that's not, I don't want tospeak about any man of God
poorly or anything.
That's not my intent.
Um just because I have areverence.
At the same time, um there wasjust something odd.

(15:02):
Like he didn't want me to getbaptized, and typically we know
that if you get the Holy Ghost,you get baptized.
Typically you would do that.

SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
Well, right.
I I think I think somebody thatis discouraging that is
definitely not bearing the fruitof a Christian.
So I you know what I'm saying?
Just because they go to churchdoesn't mean they bear fruit,
and that doesn't mean that thatwe're you know, the Bible tells
us that we're supposed todiscern the fruit.

(15:31):
So I I think Yeah, I understandyour cautiousness, you know, but
um evil is still evil, andsomeone that is abusing you is
absolutely not at all actingChrist-like.
Okay, for the people out there,we had a little bit of technical
difficulties, so we're like avideo back together a little bit

(15:54):
and picking up where we leftoff.
So, Alicia, you were saying thatyour you started at the age of
five, continued at eleven, yougot um the Holy Ghost.
And you guys were in now a thirdchurch, and um the man that

(16:16):
attended that church uh did notwant you to get baptized after
you got the Holy Ghost.
That's kind of what we weretalking about where we left off.

SPEAKER_04 (16:24):
Yeah, he was yeah, he was the pastor.
Um at yeah, he did not want meto get baptized.
And so did he say why?

SPEAKER_01 (16:32):
Did he say why?

SPEAKER_04 (16:34):
No, he never said why.
I actually got the Holy Ghost atum a junior camp.
And um we used to go with RioLinda, so people who are in UPCI
will know who what what churchI'm talking about.
And years later I found out um,you know, uh who the minister

(16:55):
was at that church.
It was kind of you know how Godkind of works things, all things
right together.
Um, but he never said why.
And for two years I did not getbaptized, and that's between
that time is when I reallystarted fighting with my my
parents.

(17:16):
I really started I started umbeing more combative at this
point, is when I really startedgoing into the darkness of my
life.

SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
So what what did that look like?
What why do you what caused youto start fighting with your
parents and then what is it?

SPEAKER_04 (17:39):
I was angry.
I was angry, I was mad withthose who were who I considered
to be of God, but theymisrepresented God.

SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
Um so you were seeing the hypocrisy and the
double standard.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (17:53):
I was seeing I and there was, and then I started
looking at like, oh, they'refavored, I'm not, like the
comparison trap.
Um that offense was alreadystarting to become there.
And given there was things thatI was dealing with, like
bullying in school, um, due tobecause we didn't wear, you

(18:14):
know, I didn't wear pants.
I didn't look like other kids.
And I'm in a public secularschool, and I have very little
support.
No youth group, very minimalsupport.
Even though my mom, we went tochurch, it seemed like every day
of the week.
There was no day that we didlike that was old school
Pentecost.

SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
That's the way I grew up as well.
Yeah, you know, looking back,I'm grateful for that.
Like our whole life was aboutchurch, and and I'm grateful for
that now.
But at the time, yeah, it's likethat's all we did.

SPEAKER_04 (18:46):
Yep, and that's how I was raised.
And so um, and I I startedbecoming rebellious, and it
became to the point where therewas fighting, I was missing
school.
At this point, me and my mom gotinto an argument, it got

(19:08):
escalated, and my mom she wasdisciplining me.
I hit her back.
Well, she ended up um having thepolice called on me, and then I
ended up going to juvenile hallfor the first time.

SPEAKER_01 (19:24):
Oh wow.
How old were you?

SPEAKER_04 (19:27):
I was around 12, 12-ish, because my grandma was
still alive.
And um, but my grandma wasfighting cancer at that time.

SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
Your mom and dad, your mom and dad still married
at that time.

SPEAKER_04 (19:41):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
My parents are still married.
My parents have been married for50, almost 52 years now.
My parents, like I come from along line of people that are
married.

SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
Yeah.
They don't what did thediscipline look like?
Because back then, I'm not surehow old you are.
I think I'm quite a bit older,but discipline was off the hook.
Yeah, it was it was woodenspoons, belts, like the whole
nine yards.

SPEAKER_04 (20:07):
Yeah, it it was, it was, it was.
My mom, you know, I given Ineeded discipline, and you know,
I love I do love my mother.
There are things that me and mymom, we don't have the greatest
relationship just because ofthings that happen within our
relationship.

(20:29):
And it has been a process offorgiving that has come from my
my side.
Um because I did give my parentsa lot of grief.
And years later I went andrepented to them and I said,
please forgive me.
Um however, at that time, itwas, it was.

(20:51):
Like I we were, we had, I mean,I have my dad was my dad is a
good father.
Like my dad is a I I love mydad.
My dad is if my dad would haveknew what was happening to me, I
feel like my dad would have didsomething.

SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (21:09):
My dad he was the kind of man that worked every
day.
He worked, supported his family.
He was all about working, takingcare of the family, and the
greatest pieces of my father uh,you know, is him getting up at
three in the morning.
And my dad was someone who readhis Bible.
My dad was someone who umlistened to cassettes because

(21:31):
he's from another country, sohis English isn't great.
But my dad learned, and my dadhe he played the guitar and he
would he would have hymn note,you know, books, and he's a very
peaceable man.
Um and from what God deliveredhim out of, right?
So he's over there trying tostay saved for himself, and then

(21:54):
he didn't know I don't believewhat was happening to me.

SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
And I I'm definitely not trying to uh blame you know
the discipline at all.
I just I think there's a lot ofus that got disciplined like
that, and so when you when youdo fall into anger because
you've been a victim of things,right?
Anger is is a controllableoutcome and something that a lot

(22:23):
of people do deal with.
You know, I was just curious,like at that time, what made you
hit your mom back?

SPEAKER_04 (22:30):
Because at that point I was so mad.
At that point, I was so my mybrain at that time was so like
I'm against everything.
And ultimately this other italmost seemed like another
personality started coming out.
Like I think it was meprotecting myself.

(22:52):
Sure, sure.
Um because now I'm in that placeof just I just need to survive.

SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 (23:00):
Like if like if no one's gonna protect me, then I'm
gonna protect myself.

SPEAKER_02 (23:06):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (23:08):
And I I grew up, so my parents, um, I grew up in a
rougher neighborhood, eventhough like my mom grew up in an
upper class lifestyle before shecame to God.
And my dad, you know, he's fromanother country, so he didn't
have the best of everything.
And so my parents could have atone point they could have moved

(23:29):
us to Napa, and my mom couldhave had me go to a Napa
Christian school, but shedecided not to.
Um, but instead we lived inanother city, we lived in
Vallejo, and that was rough.
And so you're growing up inchurch, you wear skirts every
day, and you are surrounded bysecular people, and you're not

(23:53):
getting the support at home.
And my mom, like, yeah, like yousaid, like discipline was belts,
uh, wooden paddle.
Me and my brother actually tookit and put it in the fireplace
because we were so tired, right?
I mean, my brother concoctedthat old thing where we did
that.
Um, but I ended up going tojuvenile hall, and at that point

(24:18):
is when I said, I'm no longergonna wear skirts.
I'm done.
And I started sneaking clothes.

SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
How long were you in juvenile hall?

SPEAKER_04 (24:30):
I was just in there for a weekend.
It was um, I'll never forget theofficer who put me in handcuffs
and put me, you know, in thecar.
And yeah.
It was a scare tactic.
And you know, I had heard umstories about what happens to
girls or people that go tojuvenile hall.

(24:51):
And um nothing happened to me inthere, but I, you know, I do
remember that I was like, I doremember asking, like, you know,
God help me.

SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
I'm just gonna throw out a a little plug here.
So um for any parents that arelistening, um, I think the
absolute worst thing you can doto your child is call the
police.
Unless you feel your life isbeing threatened.
You do not feel your life isbeing threatened.

(25:30):
Don't ever if you're aChristian, don't ever call the
police on your children.
Because what they feel isabandoned and unloved, and it
pushes them deeper and furtherfrom God and away from you.
They they're not gonnaunderstand when they're already
at the place where they'restruggling so much.

(25:52):
I personally believe it's theworst thing a parent could do to
their child.
Um, and unfortunately, I see itall too often.
And so I just wanted to put thatplug in there because I think in
a different d generation thatmaybe that could have worked to,
you know, scare the kidsstraight to where they would

(26:13):
straighten up and be obedient.
But I it I don't think it works.
I don't think it works at all.
And um it causes a lot of harmthat's very difficult to come
back from.
And the enemy is going to usethat against against them and
against you as the parent andagainst the Lord.

(26:35):
So we don't want to give wedon't want to give the enemy any
occasion um for for our childrento be offended with us turn
their back.
Because if they turn their backon us, they're gonna turn their
back on God simultaneously.
Or vice versa.
So um so you go to juvenile hallfor the weekend, you come out,

(26:55):
and and I guess that is thebeginning.
You said I'm done with this.
Did you stop going to church?
Did they make you go to church?
What what did life look like foryou after that?

SPEAKER_04 (27:08):
So life was I'm not going to church.
And if I did go to church, Iwould wear some of the most
awful clothes.
I I really was like all out.
I um I started like wearingmakeup and pants, and I didn't

(27:32):
cut my hair until after acertain part of my life.
Like um, I want to say when Iwas about fifteen.
But that's after a whole ordealof things started happening.

SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
Um But what was your mom so was your mom and dad
making you go to church that youjust said I'm not going and they
were okay not letting you go attwelve years old?

SPEAKER_04 (27:57):
No, I mean it was arguments, it was disagreements.
Um it was chaotic.

SPEAKER_01 (28:08):
It was can you elaborate a little bit?
I want to be able to relate tothe kids out there who are going
through things because chaosdoesn't always articulate No, it
doesn't.

SPEAKER_04 (28:23):
Some because my parents would get into
disagreements and you know mydad my dad, you know, things
weren't done a certain way, andhe'd be like, Well, I'm not
gonna go.
At this point, there was thingshappening within my own, and you
know, I don't want to speakpoorly on anybody, including my
my family, because my parentsare very um important to me.

(28:45):
At that time, though, there wasthings going on with the dynamic
of our family, and I was youknow, rebelling.
I had an older brother too,where um because the my one of
my abusers was his friend, andthat particular friend was
getting my brother caught up inissues too.
So when the enemy attacked myfamily, he used this particular

(29:09):
individual.
This this ended my brother endedup, um he my brother ended up as
well leaving church too.
So we were we um ended up yearslater, I want to say around 15,
16, my brother backslid.
My dad, after he found out,around 13 is where things

(29:33):
started really happening in mylife.
But go like the the darknessstarted really taking over, and
it also affected my family.
That's where it bled into myfamily.
But around going to church wasyou're gonna go, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 (29:48):
So when you when you quote unquote backslid, when you
decided you're done, were youdirecting that at God or were
you more directing that?
At your mom.
Like, do you feel like it was mymom?

SPEAKER_04 (30:05):
It was never I loved God.
Like at five years old, evenwhile being abused, I would get
my Bible and sleep with myBible.

SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (30:14):
And I I I was alone a lot of the time because
remember, my siblings wereolder.
So I was so isolated.

SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Right.
A lot of prodigals that I talkedto, um, they never meant to
really leave God.
They just they just had strugglein their life and they didn't
know how to reconcile the two.
And so when we're raised, whenwe're raised in church the way
that we were, and have arelationship with God at such an

(30:47):
early age, at least I alwaysidentify God with the church.
I never knew how to separate Godfrom the church.
I had to learn that as I gotolder, I imagine.
You know, most of us prodigals,we have to learn how to do that
as as we come back to the Lord.
So what did all of that looklike?

(31:08):
What what happened next in yourlife?
And be specific if you can.

SPEAKER_04 (31:13):
So yeah, so then that's where um my mom ended up
getting a social worker, endedup um wanting to put me in
therapy, um, because I had goneto juvenile hall, they
automatically gave me aprobation officer.
Because now I was being truant.
I didn't want to go to school.
So um I it was literally mefighting against my parents.

SPEAKER_01 (31:37):
Um were you ditching or were you just not leaving the
house?
No, I was ditching.

SPEAKER_04 (31:43):
I was ditching, I was leaving.
Um, I was leaving.
Uh there was this woman that mymom started like trying to win
to God, or you know, because mymom, she she would give Bible
studies to anybody.
My mom was a soul winner.
And we, you know, dope drugaddicts knew who my mom was.
Dope dealers.
My mom, my mom was like, likewhen everyone's home was getting

(32:06):
robbed, my mom's home did it.
And um, and there was respectfor my mom.
However, in our own lives waschaotic.
So that woman that she wasreaching, she would like let me
go to her house.
I would leave school and go toher house and hang out with her.

(32:29):
So and she wasn't a great ladyeither.
Like she wasn't.
Um and because I was so at thatpoint, the bullying, the abuse,
I wanted a way of escape.
So the people of the world werethe way of escape because in the

(32:52):
sense, like, if I have nobody inchurch, I have no support, my
dad can't help me, my mom can'thelp me, they want to
automatically put me like umwith therapy.
And then there came a pointbecause I went to juvenile hall,
I was assigned a probationofficer.
And that's where stuff's that'swhere I started dabbling in um

(33:16):
ultimately witchcraft.
So there came a point where Istarted um I remember uh going
to the library and I had likethis curiosity because here I am
struggling, not and then it'slike almost you don't know where
you belong.
So this identity, this identitycrisis starts happening.

(33:39):
Because at that age, that'swhere we really start um wanting
you know autonomy.
Yeah, autonomy.
We want our identity, like whoam I really?
Um, and then you have the HolyGhost, and you're you're not,
you're, you're all all thischaos is going on.
Well, I go to the library, pickup books on palm reading and

(33:59):
tarot cards.

SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Well, how did you even know to think about that?

SPEAKER_04 (34:04):
That's a thought that came to my head.
A thought.
It was the enemy was lying tome.
And at this point, what was hesaying?

SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
Um because uh I'm I'm curious where the exposure
came from.
Because at 12, like unless you'dbeen exposed to palm reading or
witchcraft, you wouldn'tnaturally know to go think of
that.
You know, you wouldn't youwouldn't even know those
terminologies.

SPEAKER_04 (34:35):
Well, I like I like I was always very sensitive as a
child, always sensitive.
There were things that I couldsense, I would dream.
Um because I was struggling somuch with fear, I would have
night terrors, I would havesleep paralysis.

SPEAKER_02 (34:50):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (34:51):
So um demonic years yes, yep.
I then I never like years later,I learned what sleep paralysis
was.
It was a spirit, and um so atthat point I did get baptized,

(35:12):
and that actually is where theold pastor came in and I got
baptized.
Me and my cousin got baptizedtogether on the same day.
There was a point where Iremember watching the movie Left
Behind, and I'll go back to whyI got in why I started dabbling
in that.
Um where I had to I did getbaptized, but then after I got

(35:37):
baptized, that's when my abuserfrom when I was like eight, and
remember, he's abusing methrough all this.
I'm also being molested.
I'm being abused by a uh mybrothers who at the time was not
he wasn't a friend, he was theenemy, trying to, I mean, it

(35:59):
seemed like chaos swallowed thatperson.
And after I had gotten baptized,he raped me.
That was like the first blown,like real assault, assault,
assault.
And I didn't tell anybody.
I didn't tell nobody.

(36:21):
Um at that point my grandma hadpassed away.
And at that point I was um in ain that in a school at that
school because I had a probationofficer, I was ditching, they
put me in that school.
Well, at that school they hadpsychiatrists.

(36:41):
And it was for children who wereemotionally either disturbed or
children who were headed toprison.
It was like for troubled kids.

SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 (36:50):
And so no, church was not on the cards after I got
baptized and that happened, thatwas it.
Walked away and walked away.
And I was dressing provocativelyum and then I ended up around 14

(37:15):
meeting my daughter's father atthe time.
He was my my you know boyfriend.
And I started escaping throughrelationships.
Um that person who assaulted me,we ended up like it ended up, it
ended right there.
Right after he did that, thatwas it.

(37:37):
Um I ended up meeting mydaughters at the time he was my
boyfriend.
For many years I was on and offwith her father.
Um and we ended up, you know, onand off.
And then that's where I startedgetting into palm reading and
really into deep witchcraft.

(37:58):
Um, and there wasn't I was notgoing to church.
I was not um at all.
And then that's where I ended upin a dark place to where I
wanted to commit suicide.
So it's when her father, I meanwe're like 15 years old, broke
up with me, or somethinghappened.

(38:18):
It was like a another traumaticexperience, abandonment, and
that's where um I wanted tocommit suicide and I felt very
alone.
My grandma was gone.
I w I just wanted to be with mygrandma.
And I remember, you know, thewhat I consumed that day.

(38:46):
But this is the thing, God neverleft me.
Even when I did that, I'll neverforget I had took all these
pills and a voice came and said,Go tell your mom what you did.
And it almost was like an angelwas sitting there.
Like I felt I felt the thepresence of the room change, and
it said, You need to go tellyour mom what you did.

(39:10):
And I didn't want to, but thenit prompted me again, go tell
your mom what you did.
So I went and I told my mom, andthen that's where I ended up,
you know, the ambulances called,they started giving me charcoal,
and then that's where everythingchanged.
Um at least for and my I mightchange for my family too.

SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
For better or for worse, everything changed.

SPEAKER_04 (39:35):
For worse.
It got really dark.
And what did you take?

SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Do you remember what you took?

SPEAKER_04 (39:43):
Um like a whole bottle of Motrin and a whole
bottle of Tylenol.
Like a whole bottle.
And um that was the first time Idid that.

SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
And at that time, at that time, Alicia, you were
already dabbling intowitchcraft.

SPEAKER_04 (40:04):
Oh yeah, yeah.
I had gotten vertigo.
So I had uh when I startedreally doing like the tarot card
readings and stuff, um I startedgetting dizzy spells.
And I was I was exposed, Ithink.
I remember you had asked me justa question previous.
Why did I get into it?
Well, I had gone to a fair and Ihad saw a fortune teller.

(40:28):
And I was curious, I wascurious.

SPEAKER_01 (40:30):
That was a seed, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (40:31):
Uh-huh.
I was curious.
I was like, oh, like, hmm.
And then I felt like this, Idon't know what it was, like, I
want to know.
I want to know who I really am.
And like this, the enemy wastoying with my head.
And it was like nobody couldspeak into my life.

(40:53):
The only person who could speakinto my life at that point was
maybe my grandpa.
And my aunt.
My aunt was my aunt has been a abackbone in my life.
She's a woman of incredible,like, she has faith, even though
she's not in our denomination orshe's not um baptized

(41:15):
necessarily in Jesus' name.
My my aunt has incredible faith.
And she was the only person whocould really speak into my life,
or I would have let speak intomy life.
My sister at this time could notspeak in my life.
My brother couldn't.
And nobody could.

(41:36):
And so and then that's where myparents like I think my parents
like started um they startedhaving their own issues within
their marriage.
And you know, my mom, she losther mom, she had to go through

(41:58):
her her, you know, traumaticstuff too, with you know, losing
her mom and just the wholedynamic of the family changed.
The point where we really neededGod, we didn't have the support.
And but my mom, the one thingabout my mother, my mother was
always faithful.
My mom was faithful.

(42:19):
My mom always showed up tochurch and she was just
faithful.
And um there were things thathappened that I had saw that I
that I, you know, people treatedmy mom and I was like, why would
I want to go there to people whodon't even treat my mom right?
Who aren't even kind to my mom.
Like, no, I'm not gonna gothere.
Even though I'm being rebellioustoward my mom, even though I'm

(42:40):
being disrespectful toward mymom.
And needless to say, thatvulnerable time where I really
needed help, I didn't have thehelp.
And I ended up in thepsychiatric hospital.
And it was like something tookover my body.
I wasn't the same after that.

SPEAKER_01 (43:02):
You ended up in the psychiatric hospital because of
the vertigo or because ofsomething else?

SPEAKER_04 (43:07):
Well, because of the I'm sorry.
Um, back to what I was saying,because of when I had tried to
uh take it on the city.
Commit suicide.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
So they would have taken you to the ambulance at
that time.
Did you tell the docs that youdid want to kill yourself?

SPEAKER_04 (43:22):
I was fighting them.
Actually, I was fighting them.
It was like something came overme.

SPEAKER_01 (43:28):
How long were you in the psych ward?

SPEAKER_04 (43:30):
Um I think it was it was actually so because I was
fighting the security, I I wasfighting security.
I was on a 72-hour hold.
And then they put me in thepsychiatric facility.
I was there for a good week.

SPEAKER_02 (43:49):
Yeah, 70.

SPEAKER_04 (43:51):
And and then my mom brought, you know, a pastor
came.
A pastor came and saw me.
My mom's pastor, he came and sawme.
I didn't really want to talk tohim.
I was very angry.
Um my mom came to see me and Ireally didn't want to talk to
her.

(44:12):
Um it seemed like the even whenI was in the psychiatric
hospital, there were girlsthere.
Like we all could talk, and youknow, it felt I felt more
connected.

SPEAKER_01 (44:23):
It almost seemed like you well, you had something
to identify with.

SPEAKER_04 (44:26):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (44:27):
To relate to.

SPEAKER_04 (44:29):
But I knew I didn't belong there.

SPEAKER_01 (44:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (44:32):
Um, because I would see little kids.
There's little kids in there.

SPEAKER_02 (44:36):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (44:36):
And it freaked me out.
It freaked me out.
I was like, like, I don't belonghere, like I don't want to be
here.
And you know, there were it justseemed like even though I was in
these places that there weregirls who were similar to me,
and we would just kind of, youknow, flock, like bond.
It was almost because we hadtraumatic stories or we we had

(44:57):
all these things, so we kind oflike bonded.

SPEAKER_02 (45:00):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (45:01):
So I get out of yeah.
And I get out of the hospital atthis point.
I'm 15 and I'm in relationshipswith older people that I
shouldn't be in relationshipswith.

SPEAKER_01 (45:21):
So you said you felt like something took over you
when you were there.
Could you elaborate?

SPEAKER_04 (45:29):
Yeah.
Um it was like something tookover to where it wasn't me.
I was aggressive, I was fightingthem.
Um it was like there was twopeople and one.

SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
Right.
Yeah.
And um And you were so I I thereason I'm asking is because I
think there's a level ofdistinction that people
recognize within themselves, andthen there's other people that
don't recognize that separation.
So, you know, that's why I'masking the question.

(46:11):
Because I think there's peopleoften know that there's another
voice speaking to them in theirthoughts.
They're arguing often with thevoice.
Um, they can feel the shift thatoccurs within them.
Um and so that's why I'm askingand trying to dig a little
deeper here because coming froma person that was spirit-filled,

(46:35):
you understand when the HolyGhost comes in and takes over
and what happens internally forthat change to take place.
So the fact that you candistinguish between you not
being yourself, I'm notsuggesting that you were
possessed or anything like that,but but I just wanted to

(46:56):
distinguish between that shiftthat occurs, because even for
you to say a voice, I felt likethat was an angel.
There's a level of recognitionthat you understood as a little
girl.
You understood that okay, thisisn't me thinking this for
myself, this is somethingoutside of me, as you said,

(47:17):
prompting me.
Often anger, impulsivity is alsoprompts that occur from I
believe the spirit realm.
Um and as well as good things,you know, the Lord prompts us
into things.
So I'm just trying to delineatethose nuances for the audience

(47:40):
because we see that in the worldtoday.
People that do not grow up inchurch, like for example, the um
people that shoot up schools,you know, almost almost
inevitably they say they heard avoice.
I mean, almost all serialkillers, I've I've researched
this quite a bit, always saythey heard a voice.

(48:02):
They they felt someone tellingthem they heard someone saying
they heard they felt.
So it's really important to makethat distinction.
And then given the fact that youare already toying into
witchcraft, um, I think it'simportant to sort of talk about
that a little.
For people to be able torecognize within their own

(48:24):
warfare, you know, adults,children, whoever might be
listening to this podcast, theway the enemy works.
The way the enemy works is theway the enemy works.
And so the the more weunderstand his devices, the more
equipped we are to fight him andovercome.
So that's why I'm trying to askthe the questions a little bit

(48:48):
um more for clarity so thatpeople can learn from the
experiences that we have gonethrough.

SPEAKER_04 (48:57):
Yes.
And um this is something thatyears later I learned it was the
thought.
The thought comes first.
When the enemy comes to attack asaint or or someone, it's the
thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 (49:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (49:13):
And especially if you don't know your Bible to
where we take every thought intocaptivity and to the obedience
of Christ.
But if you don't have thatingrained in you, and that's the
thing, is like when we're raisedin church, and a lot of
prodigals, when they when theyleave, it's because they're not
one, there's somewhere whereeven though we're taught, like

(49:35):
you could put on the dress, puton, you know, wear it to your
knees, don't cut your hair, allthose standards.
But if we don't have the love ofGod at home and the word of God
being placed in our hearts everyday, it can be to where the
enemy can sneak in and come inand put that thought.
And like and like you said, alot of those people who commit

(49:58):
those crimes, I do believe thatthat's demonic.
And I do believe that at thattime I was under well, I knew I
was because part of my testimonyis years later, um, I was
delivered.
And it actually was a ministerwho prayed on me.
And the moment he prayed, heactually, and I tested, I wanted

(50:19):
to test and see.
Because I was like, well, ifyou're really God, which I knew
there was a God, I had this fearof God in a sense.

SPEAKER_01 (50:30):
Like, even though I'm doing all of this stuff,
even though you had a reverencefor God because you knew you
knew he was real.
Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (50:38):
And and the people, and ironically, the people of
God.
It became years later where Istarted having like more of a
um, I got so lost, so lost thatI ended up in an abusive
marriage with people I shouldn'thave never been with, a family

(50:58):
that I should have never beentied with.
And at that point I hadpiercings, I had already gotten
tattoos, um, I had gotten nose,you know, like I was all and
even then I couldn't fit in.
I they did not like me.
Even the family didn't like me.
And they were like, they were umthey were heavily involved in um

(51:23):
their background was drugs,their background was criminal
activity.

SPEAKER_01 (51:29):
And I want to pause for a second um and go back to
um what you said about put on adress, don't wear makeup, all
that stuff.
So um I just want to say for theaudience watching, a dress isn't
gonna save you, and a dressisn't holiness.

(51:49):
Modesty and holiness are not thesame things, in my opinion.
Um the reason I'm clarifyingthis, I'm gonna stumble a little
bit, is because I've had so manyprodigals get tripped up over

(52:11):
the outward appearance that theynever want to come back to.
And you know, I um I I think ifwe just back up and let God do
the work in a person's heart,God changes the things in a
person that he wants to change.
But, you know, makeup or nomakeup isn't taking you to

(52:32):
heaven.
Um, most of the things that ourchurch teaches are not salvific,
meaning they're not salvationissues.
And um, so I, you know, I don'twant I don't want that to be a
stumbling block for anybodythat's still out there not
returning.
Um, because I feel likesometimes the standards that we

(52:55):
grew up with are a stumblingblock for them, and we have to
we have to take everything offthe table and just try to get
back to a place where you canGod, hear God, talk to God, and
begin opening that door for arelationship with Him and let
God deal with all the otherstuff.
You know, it I mean God Goddeals with all of the other

(53:17):
stuff and the entire NewTestament and the Old Testament
talks about the heart'scondition.
It's the heart that Jesus isafter.
When the heart becomes rightwith God, everything else takes
care of itself.
And and God does take care ofall of those things.
And I don't minimize theimportance of things, it's just

(53:42):
you can't put the heart beforethe horse.
I have to deal with the heart.
We we have to get back firstinto conversation with God,
being able to just open the doorand say, okay, you know, who are
you?
I I need to know you as who Iam.
And and I've said this before inthe podcast, so people that

(54:03):
watch this regularly, forgive mefor repeating myself.
But you know, the first thingthat God changed about me when I
came back to him was music.
It wasn't how I looked, itwasn't what I wore, it was what
I listened to, and it becameabout the books that I read.
You know, it was it was verydifferent things than what I

(54:27):
look like on the outside.
And so um I just think that thatreally does create a stumbling
block for people to even makethe first step to getting their
heart right with God, becauseyou know, we just see all the
things that we were taught askids, and so I just wanted to

(54:48):
throw that in because as I'mhearing you talk, it it was an
issue for you too.
It was an issue for me, and Iand I think it continues to be
an issue for people, and I knowthat there is the argument,
well, if you love God enough,none of those things matter, and
that is true, but the getting tothat place to even be able to

(55:10):
turn back towards the Lord iswhat we gotta focus on.
And you know, if I can't evensee God because all these other
things are in my way, we gottaremove everything and just be
able to get to a place where wecan see the Lord and and have a
desire to get back intocommunion with Him.

SPEAKER_04 (55:33):
And um I I agree with that.
And there's a difference betweenholiness and modesty that I
learned years later.
Um Me too, yeah.
And like there's a difference,and um there's also a difference
between it comes with the time.
It comes with time andrelationship, like you said.
You cannot tell someone, putthis on, look this way, conform.

unknown (55:56):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (55:57):
That's not how that works.

SPEAKER_01 (55:58):
It won't last.
It won't last when it's tested.
It you know, when it when itgets tested, it won't last
because it's not built on theright foundation.
But if if we do let God do allthose things in us, you know,
and there and there are thingsthat I learned as well in our
denomination.
It's it's a value, some of thethings are values that they they

(56:21):
set out that also is um not asalvation issue because you
know, modesty standards changeacross the board for many people
in denominations.
So that also is something thatis part of this organization
particularly and and not otherorganizations.

(56:41):
So I think there's so muchconfusion around that topic.
One of these days, I'll do awhole podcast on it, but I
gotta, I'm gonna do it with mypastor so that he can speak into
it and it doesn't getmisconstrued.
But um, anyways, I I divert, Idigress.
I I just wanted to clear that upbecause one thing about this

(57:05):
podcast, and I reiterate almostevery show, is I this is this is
to the people that have notreturned.
And and the reasons that Iinterview prodigals is to give a
message of hope.
So it's incredibly important forpeople to see where someone has
been.

(57:26):
The down and dirty, the the thepain, the sorrow, the ugliness
of where a life apart from Godtakes us.
Because there are people outthere that might still be in
jail, that might still be in theoccult, but they do still have
the still small voice of Godspeaking to them.

(57:46):
They might be on drugs, theymight be at another church that
might not be teaching the truth.
But I will tell you that everychurch I ever went to, nothing
ever compared to my apostolicchurch, which is why I'm back,
you know, because ultimately Iwanted God, I wanted the most

(58:08):
purest, authentic, truestrelationship I could have with
him.
And like like you said, once youstart reading the Bible, it
Bible is what tells the story,and um, and if we can get people
to start reading the Bible, theBible will will be the path that

(58:30):
will bring people back intoright relationship with God.
But but that's why I just wantto talk about those details
because I'm trying to reach thepeople that haven't come home
yet, you know.
Yeah, and they and some of thosepeople may never ever come back
to an apostolic UPC church.
Um many of them will because Ithink we have to go back to heal

(58:54):
where we were hurt, you know, toget clear.

SPEAKER_04 (58:57):
But I think it's also prayer.
There are many people who areintercessors and prayer warriors
who are praying for prodigals,especially right now.
Yes, yes.
Um and I think that it takessomeone and you don't have to
leave church and be backslidden,no.
But sometimes God allows thosesituations, one, because I do

(59:22):
believe that the ones who docome home, they're gonna have an
anointing on them to go out andthere are people that I can talk
to and reach that others may notbe able to.

SPEAKER_02 (59:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (59:33):
Because once I believe once you're delivered
out of all of that, you have theability to go back and lift
somebody else out.
So when it comes to women who gothrough abuse or mental illness
or possession, witchcraft,whatever, gang life, whatever it
is, you know how you now haveauthority.

(59:55):
You can actually put the devilin this place. 'Cause you came
out of that, got delivered.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:00):
From that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:00):
And and and that's the thing is like a thousand
percent.
You know, this this walk, mywalk has it it was a very ugly
walk until like the past, Iwanna say, I've been back for
fifteen years.
And and I was, I was put onpsychotropic medication, I was
put a second time in a mentalfacility, and then I was

(01:00:23):
ultimately put in a girl's home.
And I lived with women.
It's a lot of trauma.
Yeah, I had so much, but it waslike I was with other women for
whatever purpose God has allowedme to be around the rougher, the
more um the girls who don'thave, you know, the best

(01:00:44):
upbringing, the ones who have nomom, the one who's been abused,
um for whatever purpose andreason, and I think it is in a
sense to give them hope.
Like if God, if God can save me,he can save you too.
And so when I see when I when Isee someone and I can see, I can
see all the things I was oncebound up by.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:06):
Because ultimately, when I came back, that was due
to I ended up marrying um my mydaughter's father, who was the
one who I was with when I was14.
We were on and off, on and off.
And it spot it eventually Iended up back with him years
later.
I was supposed to get married toa guy who was like very wealthy.

(01:01:26):
I I ended up, I was backslidden,I was so backslidden, I was
living with a guy.
And the crazy part was his hismother was a witch.
She was a born-off black witch.
His sister-in-law was a witch.
And at that point, I still wouldpray.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:42):
The devil was out to you allegiance.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:45):
I was I was still praying though.
I would still, I would go, Iwould, I would look one way, one
way, and I would still try to goto church.
I was still fighting.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:54):
And and the thing is, is when I share this
testimony, I pray that itreaches that girl who feels I
can't come back because I gotall these layers.
The thing is, is that God seesthrough all your layers.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:08):
And the one thing God'll use them.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:10):
Yes.
And that's the one thing is thatwhen I came back, it wasn't one,
two, three easy.
It was not.
I and I wasn't met with a robeand a ring.
You know how they talk about theprodigal son?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Um, I remember having anaccident right outside, right
after I prayed through.
It was actually a very prominentperson in our organization who

(01:02:33):
prayed on me.
And he said, just believe.
Because at that point, I alreadyhad a label.
At that point, my family alreadylabeled me.
At that point, um, you know,people would tell my mom, your
daughter's never gonna amount toanything.
She's gonna be locked up in ahospital, she's gonna end up in
prison.
And they actually said that.
There are people who were just,they were like, She's crazy,

(01:02:55):
she's gone.
There's no hope for her.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:58):
And and I almost dropped out of high school.
I I and my mom sent me to agirls' home, and ultimately I
got my high school diplomathere.
Um and I had met other girls whowent through abuse.
Girls who were headed, they wereon their they were going to
prison.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:16):
And so those were the girls I actually bonded
with.
Um, and there's actually onetill this day, I'm actually her
friend, and she is an atheist.
And I will say this um shedoesn't believe in God, but the
one thing she did say, she said,because I know you, I know that
there is a God.
She told me that one time.

(01:03:38):
Um, she's just afraid and reallywounded.

unknown (01:03:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:44):
It's just easier to say easier to say she's an
atheist, but she's definitelyseeing the light in you, and I
would just keep shining thatlight to her.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:54):
And I and I pray for you know the people that I cross
paths with.
And I learned the power offorgiveness.
So ultimately, years later,Kathy, um, I came back, um, I
was delivered, and that was ademonic spirit.
I was under, I was possessedwith that stuff.
Um and it came to a point whereGod fully delivered me.

(01:04:18):
I mean, completely delivered meto where I have sound mind.
Even the people who diagnosed meyears later, they said, you
don't need medication, you dobetter without.
And I believe and and the HolyGhost, this is the thing about
the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost rewires thebrain.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:40):
So does prayer.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:42):
Yes.
And and that's prayer.
And so, and even my daughter, Iremember when she was little,
she knew the difference when Iwould pray and go to the altar.
She knew.
There was one time wheresomething had happened and she
said, Come on, mommy, let's goto the altar.
And years later, she told me,because I knew, mom, that prayer

(01:05:03):
works for you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:04):
Yeah.
I think you know, we in Westernculture we place so much
emphasis on science, um, butit's it's backwards.
Science actually proves theBible in the spiritual world,
and actually, there's tons ofscience right now that has been
done and is being done about theparanormal.

(01:05:26):
Paranormal is basically thesupernatural.
We understand the supernaturalabout being God and and um the
angelic and the demonic, youknow, the invisible basically,
what we cannot see.
Um but yeah, the thesupernatural is a predominant

(01:05:47):
force, and the br and thescience is now starting to prove
that how the brain responds toall of that, you know.
But it's not backwards, it's notthat the brain comes first and
then all of that comes second.
It's it's the spirit of God,which is the supernatural, comes
first.

(01:06:07):
And science is just nowbeginning to see how the brain
responds to all of those things.
And there's so much they cannotexplain.
They keep trying to find words,but um, you know, partly because
God can't be explained, but itis exciting um as a therapist to
have some research and languageto talk about the things of God

(01:06:30):
and the power of prayer and andall of that, because they're
starting they're starting tointersect somewhat.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:38):
Well, yeah, and that's the thing is that um we
you know we wrestle not againstflesh and blood.
And it's really true.
Like it's really real, it's itis real, and like you when you
had said the enemy was after me,yeah.
Because he knew since the momentyou know we were formed in our
in our mother's womb, he knewwho I was gonna be in this time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:02):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:03):
And the enemy, one thing I noticed is if he can't,
he tries to get you when you'relittle.
He tried to get a thousandpercent, he tried to um get I
believe it was Josh um Jezebel'sgrandson or uh uh Attila's
grandson, she he tried to gethim when he was little to

(01:07:26):
destroy that Jesus.
Yes, and Moses, and Jesusbecause people, and this is what
I've learned people who areforerunners for the Lord, they
are the forerunners, meaningthey are there there is a
generation rising within theprodigals, within the
backslider.
They are gonna be the ones whoare gonna be reaching those who
are lost.

(01:07:47):
Because one, they haveexperience and they know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:51):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:52):
And they have to do it.
And they overcame, yeah, andthey overcame it.
And there are some that they'vebeen in church for many, many
years, and that's a beautifulthing, and I don't take away
from that, and I honor that.
And they're but at the end ofthe day, you've been in it so
long, and sometimes we be I andI see this because I encountered

(01:08:13):
this actually, you know, we canbecome jaded.
Where we do every day the normto norm.
We look, you know, we look thisway, we go to church, like you
can get into that cycle, andthen you're not reaching the
lost because we were called tobe disciple makers.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:30):
Well, that's a difference between people that
go to church for culture andhabit versus those that have
relationship, you know.
Not that they don't haverelationship, but there's gotta
be another level of hunger, youknow.
Um, because it's easy to justlook a certain way and live a
certain way every day and notspend time in your word and not

(01:08:52):
spend time in prayer.
Yeah, you can be a wholedifferent story.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:56):
It's very different.
And you're right, and that's thething is that you have to have a
daily relationship with theLord.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:03):
And you know, that's not just say anything bad about
people that that don't.
I mean, yeah, there's a lot tobe said about faithfulness.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:12):
Yeah, we're on a different um something I've
learned over the years is thatand you you said something
about, you know, if you try toconform without gain it for
yourself, it won't work.
And you're right, because Iwould be one where I would go
back and forth.
I wanted I wanted so badly to beback in church, but I had the

(01:09:34):
stumbling block of standards.
And um, and it would be this inand out thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:43):
And because of the And that's because you think you
think, okay, if I'm in church, Igotta be this, it's all or
nothing, black and white, thankyou.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:51):
Yep, yep.
That was how my mind was at thattime, to where it was it was
like that.
And there came a point to whereGod actually, that there came a
point where I was actually mydaughter's father, and that
whole situation ended up.
I was in jail.
And I was about to change, youknow, they call it change out.

(01:10:13):
I was in a holding cell, andthat's where I met God for me.
Like truly, even though like Iwould hear him and there was
prompting, and I was with allthese people.
I mean, I would still talk toGod.
It wasn't that I didn't talk toGod, I was just in a place where
I knew I shouldn't been, but Ididn't know how to get out.

(01:10:33):
And I was so and and I wasinfluenced by that spirit that
was you know coming.
It wasn't like it didn't happenovernight, right?
It happened over time,progressive.
And it wasn't like I was oneminute, you know, um, there were
times where I was there andtimes where I wasn't, and

(01:10:55):
mentally I meant like me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:58):
And so I was always fighting this battle.
And this is the one thing that Ido want to say is that I would
struggle.
I would I would go to the churchparking lot sometimes and sit
there.
And the enemy would say, Oh, yougotta give up this.
Remember what you did withso-and-so?
You can't go in there, theydon't accept you, they don't
even like people like you.
Like I'm telling you, Iliterally remember sitting

(01:11:20):
outside my mom's old church.
I wanted to go in so bad, but Icouldn't.
And I would just drive away.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:31):
And but when I met God for myself, I was in that
holding cell, and that's whereGod told me there's gonna be
this no more in and out thing.
Either you're gonna live for meor that's it.
Because I do believe there is apoint where God does say that's
it.
He does, He does, He does.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:50):
There is He did that for me too, yeah.
I agree.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:55):
And I know that people say, Well, God is great,
He's merciful, He's yeah, He is,He is all of those things, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:02):
But God is also a very just God, yeah, and I want
it I want to interrupt a littlebit because um I I agree with
that a thousand percent, but Iwanted to shift the focus
because what I what I think, andI could be wrong, I think the
Lord is trying to let us knowbecause when we are outside the

(01:12:26):
hedge of protection, the theenemy the enemy can has
permission to attack us.
We you're open to the Bible.
Yeah, the Bible says that whenwhen we let down the hedge, we
choose to let down the hedge,the serpent can come in.
And I was just reading thismorning in Psalms, I think it's
like 124, 129, something, um,about uh it was another thing

(01:12:53):
about the hedge of protection,that as long as we stay within
the hedge of protection, as longas we are you know living for
God, doing righteousness, we areprotected.
So I think with you and with me,when the Lord says, hey, it's
now or never, I think it's notbecause he got done with us.

(01:13:13):
I think he sees the trap thatthe enemy has set for our future
and that if we are outside ofthe bounds of grace because
we've let the hedge down becausewe decided to go have sex with
some random guy, or we decidedto partake in things that are
clearly outside of God's word,we have an open door.

(01:13:34):
We have just allowed the enemyaccess to our life, and the
enemy is the one that candestroy that.
The enemy is the one that couldset the trap for us for a car
accident or something where itdoes become a point of no
return.
So I think it's a grace of Godwhen he can warn us that way,
but it's not because he's donewith us, because the Bible says,

(01:13:57):
even if I make my bed in hell,he is there.
I think it's that the Lord seesthe future and knows the traps
the enemy has set for us, andthere does come a point where
the enemy's gonna, you know,gonna try to take us out.
He I just wanted to reframe it alittle bit.

(01:14:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's because I thinkgrowing up in church, one thing
I hear in the in the therapeuticoffice a lot is people really
struggle with God beingpunitive, and they they think
that he they they wrestleconstantly.
Well, if God was so good, thenwhy did this happen?
And they they don't stop tothink that we have an adversary
who is the other piece of thepuzzle.

(01:14:42):
And so I wanted to just clearthat up for anyone out there who
is really struggling with theirperspective of God being
punitive.
We do live in the dispensationof grace, and there's a lot to
be said there, but but he isfunctioning from a place of
grace.
Judgment will come, but it'sgoing to come at a different

(01:15:06):
time.
The enemy is the one who isbringing about the evil, the
ugly, the harm that happens inthis world.

SPEAKER_04 (01:15:16):
Yeah.
And and that's the thing, isthat we I always go back, we
don't fight people, we don't, wedon't fight flesh, we fight
spiritual battles.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:24):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:15:25):
And you know, right getting back into church and
surrendering, like I had tosurrender.
And it and I came to that, I wasat that breaking point to where
that was it.
That was it.
I I was and my daughter was abig key of that because I didn't
want my daughter growing upgoing through the same things I

(01:15:47):
went through.
And I I and I didn't and likethat was the one thing was that
even when she was little, youknow, there came a point where I
would put her in skirts, andlike I was like, I don't live
that way.
And my wrestling at that point,I was like, I I don't want to
live like this, I don't want tobe in this situation, I didn't

(01:16:08):
grow up this way.
This is not, you know, like myparents took me to church and I
was ended up in a marriage towhere it was awful.
It was bad.
It was so bad to the point wherethe person put me in jail
because he wanted to control mylife.
And this person was very wellconnected with people, very well
connected in um that darklifestyle of the world.

(01:16:33):
There is another world, there isanother world that a lot of
people don't know about, don'tsee, but it is the underworld,
and there is that, and the andthe enemy, the enemy does how do
I want to say this?
Um try to influence.

(01:16:56):
There's this dark influence, andthere are people like you you
know how God has his people andthe enemy has his people.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:02):
Oh yeah, and it's powerful.

SPEAKER_04 (01:17:05):
And but he's not sovereign.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:06):
This is the thing, is that nope, and he's not more
powerful than God.
But if you are if you aresubjected to that world because
you are outside of the grace ofGod in terms of following God
and submitting to God, then thatis gonna be the dominant force.

SPEAKER_04 (01:17:24):
And that's the thing, and people don't realize
the power of their words, theydon't realize when they're
saying things of how much poweryou really have.

unknown (01:17:34):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:17:34):
Because I would say things when I was younger, like,
oh, I'm gonna, you know, do thisor do that, not realizing what I
was saying.

unknown (01:17:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:17:42):
And those like like the thought, the thought would
come to you and you would say itverbally.
Like I do belie I I do believethat God prevented me.
He didn't want me to get marriedto my daughter's father.
And there were times where hewas he was still with me.
He was still with me, but likeyou said, I was out of the

(01:18:03):
umbrella of protection.
But because I believe my mom, asmuch as stuff has happened
between me and my mother, herfaithfulness, and then there
were other spiritual mothers whodidn't forget about me.
There were people who werepraying for me, um, right, and
they didn't give up.
Right.

(01:18:23):
And because of them praying,because somebody prayed for me,
I'm here today talking to you.
Yeah, my daughter is living, andmy daughter's living for God.
And the thing is, is that I knowwhere God brought me out of.
And when, you know, when Isurrendered, it wasn't
overnight.

(01:18:44):
It was in my mind, I was like,okay, I'm gonna do what I need
to do.
And there was one time, only onetime, where I tried to go back
and God checked me.
He he literally, and God will dothat.
If he loves you, he will dothat.
And he he he humbled me, he tooksome things away from me.

(01:19:07):
And but then he restored.
And you had made a comment whereyou had said, why does God allow
bad things to happen?
And I've learned that thosethings were meant to reach
others.
They weren't even though as badas they were, God says he uses

(01:19:30):
all things for his good.
He will give us beauty for ourashes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:34):
And but he doesn't create any of that, and he
doesn't look upon it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:19:39):
He doesn't, but because we live in where man is,
there are we we're still we'restill subject to sometimes what
the hands of man, because man isflawed.
Right.
We're not yet on the other side,right?
And because of human because ofhuman nature and because of man
fallen by grace, andunfortunately, there are people

(01:20:03):
who unfortunately things happenin their life by wicked people
who are under that influence.
The enemy knows who we are, heknows who you and I are, he
knows who belongs to God and whodoesn't.
And that's the whole thing isthat you can try to run from
God, but you can't ultimatelyrun so far where he can't find

(01:20:24):
you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:25):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:26):
God knew, God knew how to pull my chain, he knew
how to get a hold of me, he knewwhat what I needed to turn back
to him.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:36):
And it's not that I didn't love God, it was that
there were parts of me that werestill hurt about church things.
And I didn't want to and and Idon't want to surrender because
one thing that I learned is thatit's easier to use that offense
as something to hold on to toironically give you strength.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:57):
It's a false sense of strength.

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:59):
It's a false, and that's where the enemy tri
that's that falseness with thatSatan tries to use to try to
keep you in bondage.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:09):
That's why I think humility is so important and it
is one of the hardest things tohumble when the Bible says
humble yourself before the Lord.
Yes.
Um, it is the opposite of of thefalse strength that we we all
feel as survivors feel like umthat's our most comfortable

(01:21:31):
place to walk in.
So it is a dying to self and andit is something that can come
and does come once you reallystart developing your
relationship with the Lord andyou begin to trust God that he's
got a hold of your heart.
Because otherwise it's it's waytoo vulnerable, it's way too

(01:21:53):
exposing, and it's way tooscary.
So you're right.
I mean, I I totally agree withwith what you're saying, and and
the Lord knows because he knowshe knows everything about you,
and he and he gives us the spaceand the grace and the time, you
know, to heal.
Because that's what it is.

(01:22:15):
It's it's it's a healingprocess, you know, and we will
never really I think anyoneapart from God will never really
understand the depth of his loveuntil they risk coming back, and
it is a risk because the itthere's so such a fear

(01:22:37):
intimidation there for anyone tocome back, but if they will ever
just breach that um divide andbegin to take the step towards
God, they'll really discoverthat his love far outweighs any
fear that we could have aboutwho he is and his goodness

(01:22:57):
towards us, because he does useall things for good, even though
the dem the enemy meant it forevil.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:23:06):
And um I I I really um you know, that was the thing
is that God does use it all.
And you know, and he's agentleman.
And what I mean by and what Imean by that is God was so
gracious with me that he gave,like you said, he gives you time
to heal.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:27):
Patience.

SPEAKER_04 (01:23:28):
There are some people that it's instant for
them.
Like it's instant.
I had a sister tell me, oh, itwas instant for me, and I said,
that's wonderful.
But for me, it wasn't like that.
For me, it was a process, and hewas he was gracious with me, he
was kind with me enough to whereeven when I started, like I
still had parts of me that wasstill holding on to my to my

(01:23:49):
stuff that I didn't want tofully give up, but I still
wanted to go to church, and hewas kind enough.
But then there came a pointwhere he said, I want to change
you, I want to use you, but Ican't use you like that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:02):
And he let me ask you a question about that.
Uh, because I think that getsmisconstrued too.
Um were you do you think youwere holding on to things
because they were pleasure foryou, or were you holding on to
things because um you it was avulnerability.

(01:24:29):
Like you didn't know how tofully be vulnerable in that
area.

SPEAKER_04 (01:24:36):
I think it was yeah, like um it was a vulnerability
to where I had put on an image,right?
Like I had put on this identityand I had influence around me.
My sister was a big part of myinfluence.
I have an older sister, andshe's actually um and she would

(01:24:58):
always comment about oh, yougotta put you know, this on and
that on, and she was like, youdon't need to, you know, do all
those things to be saved.
Like she was she's always, youknow, and giving that up was
like okay, I'm taking this off.
Uh I have to, I have to, I I I'msurrendering all this, and you

(01:25:19):
know, like, but it's that placewhere it gives me my security.
I felt secure with tightergarments because it brought it
people like this.
Is something like um it broughtme security because it it was
almost like that was my comfort.
Not attention.
No, it was not attention.
I never used I I used to usethat, right?

(01:25:41):
I did at one point, but therecame a point to where in my mind
the enemy would play with myhead and say, if you had worn
pants, you wouldn't have beenmolested.
And that was my stronghold formany, many, many years.
Was if I wear pants, they can'thurt me.

(01:26:01):
Oh yeah they won't be able totouch me.
And that's how that that was mystronghold for many, many, many
years.
And it came to a point to where,and when I meant God was a
gentleman, I was I was back inchurch.
I I came back to church when mydaughter was two weeks before my
daughter turned two.
So she so in getting back, itwasn't one, two, three, um back.

(01:26:27):
No, no, no, no, no.
It was progression over time.
He instantly did deliver me fromthe demonic oppression.
Yes, he did.
Um, and the sleep, you know, Ithink I had spoken with you, I
don't know if I had spoken withyou about it, but I had told
someone that um the moment thatminister prayed, the sleep
paralysis tried to come back onemore time.

(01:26:47):
And I remember my mom said, justsay Jesus, Alicia.
And I said Jesus, and itliterally flew off and left.
And when when we talk aboutspiritual warfare, it's very
real.
The spirit realm is very real,very real.
And I think that um when peopleleave, it's the enemy using the

(01:27:10):
offense, using the bitterness.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:12):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:27:13):
All those little roots, and then here comes a
voice to try to toy with yourhead.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:17):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:27:18):
And um, you know, it's in coming back, it's been
one, you know, like layer afterlayer.
And then it came to the point towhere I moved under the pastor I
have now, and they have beenvery gracious to where they they

(01:27:42):
didn't they don't fruit police.
That's the one thing my pastorhas always said.
He said, We don't fruit police.
And when I came here, it's whereGod really started developing a
relationship with him, me andhim, just me and him.

(01:28:03):
And this is the best thing Icould have ever done.
When people, you know, livingfor God is the best thing you
will ever do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:11):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:28:12):
It there is a cross.
There is there is that price ofthat surrender, right?
That vulnerability.
I threw all my makeup and allthe dresses I had, the pants.
My daughter had got sick onenight.
The Lord told me, I saved youfor me.
He told me that.
And the moment he told me that,I went and I threw everything

(01:28:34):
away.
And I said, Okay, God, allright, I need you to do this for
me, though.
And God did.
And it has been since then, Godhas shown himself in my life in
every situation.
And it doesn't mean that comingback, you won't have battles,

(01:28:56):
you won't have situations arise.
Because I have.
I I have.
And I do.
And and there have been thingsthat have happened, you know, to
my own, you know, my own um,there are things that happen to
someone you love, but because Iwent through that, I can

(01:29:16):
identify really quick.
And I know what to pray for, andI know how to counterattack the
enemy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:23):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:29:25):
And I now know, like, you know, when when things
come, no, I've been through somuch.
You can't take me out.
You try to do that when I waslittle, you try to do that
through this, you ain't takingme out.
Because there is something thatI paid.
I paid a price.
I don't, you know, there'sthere's a price that you do pay,
I do believe.

(01:29:45):
And that is, but it's it's butliving for this is so much
greater.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the the the price that wepay is not one God inflicts,
it's one that we willinglychoose.
There's a there's a die a dyingto self that is the most
liberating thing I think thatany of us can experience, you
know.
And and I I tell people if ifliving for God was not the

(01:30:15):
greatest thing that I've everexperienced, I wouldn't be doing
it.
I'd still be out there chasingall the things that I chased
before.
And I had some really greatopportunities that would have
afforded me a lot of things inthis life, but nothing compares,
nothing compares to the presenceof God, the voice of God, the

(01:30:38):
the relationship with God.
There's just nothing that willever compare.
And I think I love what you saidabout, you know, you never did
find your place to fit.
And and I never did find myplace either.
And I fit great in the world inareas, and I had a level of
success and um it never fit inwith the church, but I I I now

(01:31:02):
understand that I believepersonally that that was all by
design.
I wasn't meant to fit, I wasmeant to to belong to the Lord,
and once that piece is inalignment, everything else falls
into place because I'm notlooking for it to come from

(01:31:22):
other places or even people.
I I'm I'm secure in the Lord,and then everything else falls
in place.
And I think that's what you weresaying too, is you know, our
place is in him.

SPEAKER_04 (01:31:35):
Yeah, and that's the thing is that um when I was in
the world, I couldn't fit.
I would be in clubs, and likeyou said, I could have, I could
have at a time there was thatopportunity, right?
I there was opportunity to whereI could have been with this
person, right?
Um, but even then I did not fitin.

(01:31:57):
There were times I was at a cluband I was talking about God.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:00):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:32:02):
And they're like, what are you doing here?
What are you doing here?

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:04):
Always there, always there as a backslider.

SPEAKER_04 (01:32:07):
And and there were places I was at that I should
have bad things should havehappened to me, like really
ugly, horrible things shouldhave happened, but they didn't.
I wasn't under the umbrella, butbecause somebody was praying for
me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:24):
Yeah, God was protected.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:32:27):
And and I believe that it was a design planned by
him.
Because when you're his, you'rehis.
You you and you know, like yousaid, you make your bed in hell.
Yeah, I was deep.
I was deep in it.
I was deep in it, and I wantedto get out, but I didn't know
how to get out.
And there was that that thatthat lie that the devil would

(01:32:48):
tell me, like, well, you'regonna have to give that up, and
you're gonna have to get thisup, and you know, you you you
know, you can't do this andthat.
And that's the lie that he tellspeople when they're out of
church, is that it always aboutfirst the standards, the
offensive what somebody did toyou.
Oh, they're all this way, andit's all to keep you out of the
house of God.

(01:33:09):
But I can tell you that nothingcompares to the presence of him.
And and you made a commentearlier where you said, like,
there are other denominations,and there is nothing compared to
this truth.
Like, um, you know, I I remembergoing to my my aunt's church

(01:33:30):
because I was just trying to getsomething because I didn't want
to, I didn't want to go to whereI knew it was really at, because
I didn't want to surrender,right?
So I would just kind of just goto my aunts, but I knew like,
no, and that that's notdefraying from you know my
aunt's faith.
But it's for me, I knew I knewbetter.

(01:33:51):
I knew better.
And there were people there thatsaid, what are you doing here?
Even at her church, they knewthey said, You talk different.
Because our language isdifferent.
Like there are times when I canhear someone speaking in tongues
and I know like I can feel it.

(01:34:12):
I I I can now that you know, umI can see when the Holy Ghost is
like you can see it, you can seeit moving and feel his presence.
And there is there is nothinglike it.
The glory of God it is it wasworth everything I have been

(01:34:33):
through for that moment where tofeel him again, to feel the
chains off of me, to feel hispresence and that lightness.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:45):
Yeah, the freedom.

SPEAKER_04 (01:34:47):
Yeah, the freedom.
And that is what I hope thosecan receive from this is that
you can run, you can mask.
But at the end of the day,there's nothing compared to the
glory of God.
And sometimes you will lose yourfamily in this.
Sometimes you will lose somethings, but it is worth it.

(01:35:09):
And God never takes anything outthat he's not gonna put better
back in.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:15):
And and I just want to say too, um, as we wrap up,
God never takes, he only offers.
He he always offers a choice,you know, for people listening.
Um, God is a gentleman, and andI can see many times across my

(01:35:35):
life when I was living for God,when I wasn't living for God,
and as I've been back living forGod, uh the Lord always comes to
me and and asks me, you know,and gives me the choice to
choose.
That's where free will comes in.
Um, but he's never going topoint his finger and say, you

(01:35:56):
either do this or you know, thatthat's not who God is.
That's never been who God is.
That's what the enemy would likefor us to think.
Um, but God is a gentleman, andwhatever whatever we do choose
to give up, um we do it, we doit because, you know, number

(01:36:18):
one, he always gives back waymore than what we can ever give
to him.
But he gives us the choicebecause I believe he's got
something for us on the otherside of that.
And those kinds of things onlycome through trust.
And we do not learn to trust Goduntil we go through some things

(01:36:42):
and he has shown up for us, andthen we begin to understand that
he really is trustworthy and hereally does love us.
And so I think there's manyprodigals out there who grew up
in my generation, Alicia'sgeneration, who left for very
similar reasons.
I think all of us have differentreasons, but at the end of the

(01:37:04):
day, most of us were not leavingGod.
We were leaving um parents, wewere leaving abuse, we were
leaving standards, we weretrying to find our place to fit
in.
But I say this with everyepisode: God is um worth giving
another second chance to.

(01:37:24):
So, Alicia, as I wrap up, um, Ialways end with these two
questions.
Um, what would you say to theprodigal out there who hasn't
returned yet?
If if a prodigal is listening,what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_04 (01:37:39):
Come home.
This is home.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:37:44):
There is a place for you at the table.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:48):
And it's not the way you think it's gonna be.

unknown (01:37:51):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:51):
Coming home was never the way I thought it would
look.
It's not the way you thought itwould look.
It's better.
Way better.

SPEAKER_04 (01:38:00):
And the thing is, is that there are arms that do want
to hold you.
There is a place.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38:06):
And what about the parent out there who has a
prodigal or a spouse that has alost loved one?
What would you say to the parentthat has a prodigal?

SPEAKER_04 (01:38:17):
Keep praying.
Don't give up.
Keep praying.
I know it I know it looks hard.
I know there are days where yourprodigal might, you know, might
test or it might feelunbearable.
But they are hearing you andthey do know.
This is the thing is that aprodigal knows.
We already know the Bible.
We already know what to do.
We already know.

(01:38:40):
We just need your love.
Your love.
We need you to be that that safeplace and to that parent, be
that, show them love.
You do more with love than youdo with this and this and this,
correcting and always trying toput the Bible in front of them.

(01:39:01):
They don't we we already knowwhat to do.
Yeah, I already knew what to do.
Um, but that's what I can say isthat God does honor a parent's
faithfulness.
He honored my mom.
And as much as things havehappened between that
relationship, I am so thankful Ihad a mom who taught me truth

(01:39:21):
and parents who raised me andreared me in this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:24):
Yeah.
Well, thank you for being here,Alicia.
And um thank you for having me.
God bless you.
I'm anxious to see what God doesin your life.
I appreciate your testimony.
Okay.
Thank you.
See you later.

SPEAKER_04 (01:39:38):
See you later.
God bless.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:40):
We are so glad you joined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
tax deductible.
Visit our website at theRedeemed Backslider.org.
We hope you will tune in for ournext episode.

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