Confessions of A Prodigal TRB #30 Stephenie Haney-Montes

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and I'm a
Redeemed Backslider, and with metoday, from Austin, texas, is
an old, old friend fromChristian Life Center, stephanie
Haney Montez, and so I'm reallyhonored to have her today with

(00:47):
me and I'm excited about thisconversation.
But before we begin, I'm goingto read a quick bio of hers.
Stephanie is first a wife toAsbel and a mom to two fur
babies.
She was once a prodigal whowanted nothing to do with
ministry.
In fact, she even told God thatshe wouldn't do it.

(01:08):
But 15 years ago shesurrendered her heart and her
will to God, and in 2015, shelaunched a movement called
Unveil Ministries for Women.
Her mission is to help womenovercome past experiences that
hold them back from steppinginto what God has called them to
do.

(01:29):
Having been a victim of abuse,stephanie knows what it feels
like to battle insecurity, fear,betrayal, rejection, anxiety
and feelings of defeat.
Her heart is tender towardsthose who struggle with their
own trauma, and she is deeplycommitted to walking alongside
them in their healing journey.

(01:50):
Stephanie has authored more thanfive books and loves to
research and study the Bible.
She is always grateful and ifyou ever listen to her.
She's very authentic, sincere,transparent, just, wonderful and
ecstatic when she receives anew revelation, especially

(02:12):
during those aha moments whenshe feels a gentle nudging of
the Holy Spirit pouringsomething fresh into her spirit.
Her passion is writing,podcasting, ministry and
empowering women to go for it.
While she is an extrovert forthe most part, she has learned
that one of the most underratedweapons is called rest.

(02:33):
Therefore, she takes breaks inbetween and enjoys being home
with her doggies in what shecalls her happy place.
You'll also often find hertraveling with her husband, as
they do what they call theirbusy life together, and I know
some of that is in Washington DCquite a bit, so you can tell us
about that later.

(02:53):
But, steph, wow, I have yourbook Raw, but I didn't know that
you have written other books.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, well, it's funny, raw, I've had some
interest in that.
It's out of print.
It's been out of print.
That was the very first book Iwrote, and so I'm getting ready
to revise it and will bereprinting it probably, I would
say, in about four to six months.
But yeah, I've written severaldevotionals.

(03:23):
I did the biography on my momthat was on the second book.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I didn't even know that you had done that.
Okay, we could talk about that.
Yeah, that's wonderful.
I'm glad to catch up.
Yes, I know it's so good to seeyou.
I feel like you haven't changeda bit.
You look beautiful as ever, Ifeel the same about you.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's been a while, for sure.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
I think uh, 24 years, 22 years, it's been a long time
, yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
I left Stockton in 2000.
I was trying to remember that Ithink it was 2002 or 2003,
actually 2003 maybe two, yeah,and I left in 2001.
Okay, so you left in 2004.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, yeah, so the reason.
So this podcast.
For anybody that's new to thispodcast, we're called the Redeem
Backslider and this podcast isspecifically to reach the
backsliders.
And I use that titlespecifically because it often,
at least in my life, had a verynegative connotation.

(04:33):
And I love the fact that Godredeems our stories.
But I wanted to have you ontoday because I think so many
people who have grown up inchurch run into things in life
that they just don't know how towork through in terms of the
way they view God, the way theyunderstood God.

(04:55):
When I grew up, I was taughtthat God could do anything, that
God would do the impossible,that God heals the sick and
raises the dead and does miraclesigns and wonders all those
things we all, of course,believe.
But when we are face to facewith disappointment and struggle
, it really causes our faith towaver at times.

(05:17):
And I think about the peoplewho have left church for
whatever reasons.
They've left and maybe lefttheir relationship with God.
And in thinking about yourstory the part of it that I know
I just thought it would besuper helpful to people who
might be listening.

(05:38):
So, steph, tell us a little bitabout your upbringing.
I know anybody that's familiarwith you knows who your parents
were, but some people might not.
This new generation of kidsgrowing up, tell us a little bit
about your upbringing, what itwas like growing up in the home
that you grew up in.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Okay.
Also, I was just going to sayit seems like everywhere I go,
kathy, that I meet people whoused to go to church and they've
been wounded, hurt,disappointed.
Everywhere I go, emphatically,I meet someone.
It's just crazy how manyprovocals are out there.

(06:22):
It really is Right, right,right.
Propagals are out there.
It really right, right, right.
But, um, okay, so, regarding myupbringing, um, I was born in
stockton, california.
That's where I grew up.
That that's my heritage, and myparents were joy and kenneth
haney and they started.
I don't know how far you wantme to go back, but grew up in a

(06:44):
home where there was a lot offaith building, a lot of prayer.
I know all about the prayercloset.
I mean, really that wasembedded into my mind.
You got to pray, you have topray, you have to pray, and I
saw it by example.
It wasn't just telling you whatto do, it was a daily thing
with my parents, but wasn't justtelling you what to do.

(07:06):
It was a daily thing with myparents.
So, speaking faith, prayer andjust going for it.
They were not intimidatedeasily, neither were my parents,
and so I grew up under thatumbrella and, as you know, our
church grew.
We were a really large church,especially at one time, and then

(07:28):
my dad started all those whatthey call campuses nowadays, but
it was more like daughter works, he would call them, or Sabbath
works, I think there was likeup to 12 at one time, maybe even
more than that.
They just had a lot of vision.
So I grew up under that, like Isaid, the umbrella of that, and
I was the middle child, and wehad the Bible college going on.

(07:50):
So you'd have all these kidscoming in, adults coming in, we
had a school, we had a radiostation.
There was so much activity, somany things going on.
Plus, they were doing a lot ofglobal work overseas.
So I grew up with that, likeyou were saying God can do this,
god can do that and we're goingto go for it.

(08:10):
You know, I grew up with thatmentality, that mindset, but I
think for me is number one beinga middle child.
It actually anybody, it reallydoesn't matter.
I think I struggled a lot withI don't know if you want me to
go down this lane yet but yeah,whatever you want to say With my
identity, not some extraidentity, I'm not talking about

(08:31):
that.
My identity and who I was whenyou fit.
I didn't quite feel like I fitin and did.
My dad was a who's who, the bigcheese in the organization that
they were in, and so Isometimes would question
people's motives.
Sure.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Hard to trust people, I imagine.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
How do you trust people?
All of these different thoughtswould go through my mind.
And then I think the biggestthing for me was I just felt
like sometimes and I hate sayingI didn't fit in, because that's
such a cliche, but I didstruggle there, I really did,
and I felt like I had to look acertain way, be a certain way,
do things just like this whatwas expected of me but it wasn't

(09:15):
really me.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yes, because you were a pastor's daughter.
A glass house daughter, you know, and and yeah right, a big
glass house, because everybodyyou know, not not only in the
organization, um, but in thecity.
Your dad, your dad was so wellconnected and had friends across

(09:39):
denominational lines in thecity and the county he was
building in the city.
So everybody knew the name,everybody knew the church and I
would imagine that's all of itsown pressure.
And was it difficult to havefriends besides males?

(10:02):
But did you find it difficultto trust people as friends?
Did you feel lonely?

Speaker 3 (10:08):
No, in school I had a lot of.
I had a lot of friends.
You know everybody I was, and Ialways went for the underdog.
That's kind of my personality.
I see someone alone, I go talkto them.
I was very popular, of coursethat I was always going for the
people, you know, if I see themin the corner.
Or I remember one time there wasa guy that had really bad acne

(10:30):
and people were calling himpizza face and all of these
things and it just made me somad and so I went over and I
befriended him and I and then Iwent through acne so I
understood what it felt like andgirls when they grow up die.
It hangs out.
So I always cared for people.
But that was my dad and my momtoo that was always caring for

(10:54):
the if you want to call it, theunderdogs or the less fortunate.
Wow.
So I had a lot of friends.
I had a few close, closefriends, I would say during that
time I didn't have a ton, but Ihad a lot of friends.
There was a bunch of friendsand then you're a real close

(11:15):
circle.
I didn't have a ton ofclose-knit circle of friends.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, but you had sisters and obviously your
brother and it seems like youguys were all close growing up
yes, we were all really close.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
Liz and I were really close.
Sherry was a little older butwe were, we were all close and
yeah, in that way as a family.
And my brother, he was justkind of a brat growing up great
guy, he's phenomenal, but youknow he's just the guy right
right but we were all close.

(11:51):
We all stick up for each other.
You know, we we had a greathome life.
We always say that we don'thave any.
There was.
Our upbringing was phenomenal.
We had incredible parents.
Our home was phenomenal, so wehad incredible parents, our home
was phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Well, your parents lived what they believed.
I've said many times on thisshow I considered your dad to be
my very first pastor because Ifelt like your dad would make a
point to come and shake my handand ask me how I was doing, and
it mattered, because a personneeds to be seen and where I was

(12:29):
at that time in my life comingback to Pentecost was all brand
new for me and I really was afish out of water, but they were
just so very genuine and loving, always, always.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, and that's like I said, that's what we saw
daily.
They really lived it.
I don't have that story where Ilived in a fake house.
I lived in a class house but itwas real behind the scenes.
What you see out in front waswhat we saw behind the wall.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, I believe it.
Yeah, I believe it.
And so you know, fast forwardinto teenagers I'm not sure what
age you were when you met himand the excitement.
You used to sit on the frontrow and a couple of times I sat
up there with you.
I would have never had you notasked me to, but it was

(13:37):
wonderful.
But I remember you sitting upon the front row and I remember
when he came into church on thefront row, and I remember when
he came into church and I wantto really ask about, I would
imagine, at that stage in yourlife you had been praying for
God to send you the right guy.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yes, okay.
So let me give you a littlebackstory here.
I was always and I don't wantto go into this too much, but I
was always the they would callme sometimes the black sheep of
the family.
So I was always pushing theenvelope.
I just always had a streak inme I don't know where it came

(14:18):
from, but I did and so therewere times I wasn't really doing
like I should, and so finally Igot to a place.
I was like, okay, you got to getsettled here, you know, and I
did start praying for the rightman to come into my life and I
was trying to do right byeveryone else.
You know, I wanted to do right.
I wanted to marry the right guybecause I had been dating
another guy before.

(14:39):
That.
It was it all spiraled.
I always went for the bad boyimage type, I don't know why,
but that was kind of mypersonality.
So then I started praying forthe right guy, like, okay, god,
because I know I need to fall inline.
Basically, you know all ofthose things we pray.
And, yeah, I prayed.

(15:00):
So when this man walked in,came out to college and he
started pursuing me and westarted talking.
I thought well, maybe this isit.
Those were my first initialthoughts.
Well, maybe this is the one.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
And then walk us through that, walk us through
how it evolved.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, Well, you know, looking back I I've learned so
much, but if I knew that, thenwhat I know now, I would have
walked away when we were dating,because the signs of abuse were
there, the signs of regulationwere there, the signs of
controlissism was there, and Iwas so dumb and naive in a way

(15:45):
and I wanted so bad to marry theright one, to marry a minister.
That was what was expected ofme marry a minister, and so- Can
I pause right there?

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, steph, when you say expected, was that your
perceived expectation because ofwho your family was, or was it
pressure that you felt like frompeople?
The glass house, it was both.

Speaker 3 (16:12):
I think it was well.
I think I put more expectationson myself, but I also felt it
and people would say littlethings Like I've heard people
say you need to settle down.
You were built for ministry.
You were built to marry apreacher.
You were built.
I heard people say you need tosettle down.
You know you need your.
You were for minister.
You were built to marry apreacher.
You were built, I heard that alot I had properties, I had all
kinds of stuff, so and I, andback then I was like, well, I've

(16:34):
been running and running, Iguess it's time to settle down.
You know, um, my friends weregetting married and and I just
thought okay.
And then we started dating andthis, like I said, the signs
with.
I remember one time particularwe've been dating.
We had a short courtship, Ithink it was not even a year.

(16:54):
Yeah, we got married within ayear of knowing each other and
he was newer in the church too,so he'd only been to church a, a
few years and his pastor kindof cautioned me to go a little
slower maybe.
And then, of course, but Iremember one particular, a

(17:17):
really good guy friend of minethat I grew up with, you would
know, we were talking in a groupand then he and I had like a
sidebar conversation.
We were talking about it'sabout it's about God.
You know, it was all.
He was in youth.
He was on fire.
We were just having a greatconversation.
Well, a guy in dating comes andinterrupts me and says we got to

(17:39):
go now and at first I didn'tthink anything about it.
But when we got outside he wentoff on me and said I am looking
at you and I saw you the wayyour eye like I mean just
eyeballing him, and I saw yourbody language like crazy stuff
and I was like what are youtalking about?
He's my friend.
I would never be in a programwith him, but that was the first

(18:01):
sign that's so vivid in mybrain right now still that I
should have paused and said youbetter watch it.
This is a sign.
And the way he grabbed my arm,it wasn't gentle, it was with a
jerk.
So that was the first.
We'd only been dating maybefour months, five months and

(18:23):
that was the first thing I sawwhen we'd date the signs that
okay, something's not right.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Right, and so you guys get married.
The abuse begins.
Do you want to talk about anyof that, because I know that's a
large part of your ministry towomen?

Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, I don't usually-.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
You don't have to.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
If I'm in a small setting and it's private, I'm
much more open.
But I'll tell you a few thingsOn.
Our honeymoon is when itstarted and I remember thinking
I didn't want to tell my family,I didn't want to tell my mom,
my dad, I remember thinking,didn't want to tell my family, I
didn't want to tell my mom.
My dad remember thinking, oh,you know, he's it'll, it'll calm

(19:08):
down, that's what you do, right, right, you justify you, you
find, you make up excuses, youjustify the behavior.
And then then it calmed downfor like a month and I thought,
good, he was just under stress.
It picks back up Dishesbreaking, walls, being pounded,

(19:30):
and then that mood from thattype of craziness going on,
chaos in the home where I wasstarting to be scared, touching
me, trying to choke me, throwingme against the wall, locking me
in the room, you know all thiscrazy stuff, and I was scared
out of my mind.
I mean, I remember thinking whocan I talk to?

(19:50):
And there again, I didn't tellanybody.
I was scared to tell anybody.
Number one I didn't want to bea failure.
I didn't want to have a failure.
I kept thinking just pray, justfast, God's going to fix him,
god's going to fix him.
God's going to do this.
You know, that's what I keptthinking was going to happen and
I didn't want any of mysiblings to know that oh,

(20:10):
stephanie's already they'redivorcing.
You know, I didn't want peopleto think that and.
But then it kept getting worseand worse and then he would take
off for sometimes three or fourdays at a time.
I didn't know where he was.
And keep in mind he'sministering, he's preaching out,

(20:31):
we're holding little typeservices, revivals.
I'm playing the piano organ andsinging.
All of this is going on.
And I remember one time he hadbeen gone a while and and I was
just scared to death.
And when he came home he wasmore angry and our home became
just.
This happened, but this was thebeginning of a lot.

(20:53):
Yeah right, then he would comedown, buy me shoes, flowers,
nice things.
That's what they did.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
The domestic violence cycle.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yes, so I lived in this cycle over and over and
over again and then it was aboutfive years later, a little bit
over five years, um, I actuallyit was four and a half years
that I became pregnant and I wasfour months and it was.
I felt like it was a boy.
I had that feeling and hewasn't happy.

(21:27):
It caused things to get worse.
And then he said we were goingto go travel and he had to get
me away from my family.
He began to despise my father,my family, just literally.
My people liked that movieSleeping with the Enemy Right.
It was a crazy movie.

(21:48):
They were very cynical and verysinister and evil.
Yeah, that's that's where itgot to.
That's the point it got to.
And so I was here, I was havinga baby.
I think I was like almost fivemonths, four and a half months,
when he had taken off and I wasat this point because he had
locked me in the room.
We were in a trailer at thispoint because we were going to
go evangelizing.

(22:09):
So I was trying to doeverything to hold the marriage
together.
Whatever you want, you want togo travel and preach everywhere.
And I had spots.
I was actually getting allthese places for us to go preach
because I thought, well, youknow, we're getting us away from
here, victim Getting us awayfrom here, everything's going to
be fine, we're going to be ahappy couple, have a baby, all
of this stuff.
That's what victims do.

(22:29):
Right, fix it Right.
You can't fix someone who's gotall these problems.
You can't.
Right.
And so, long story short, thelast time, after I had been
locked in overnight in the roomin the trailer and I forget it
scared me so bad I thought I wasgoing to be killed.

(22:51):
It was that bad.
There's a movie about somethingsimilar and I can't even watch
stuff like that because it kindof triggers me, because I know
that's a crime of fear, right,and I didn't have my phone.
It was horrible.
It of fear, right, and I didn'thave my phone.
It was horrible.
It was horrible, right.
And so after that he finally letme out of there, took off and

(23:14):
he was gone.
I didn't know how long it wasgoing to be gone, but I called
one of my sisters and I said I'mleaving.
I keep wanting to say the nameI'm leaving and I wanting to say
the name I'm leaving and I needhelp just getting my stuff.
I'm not taking anything but myclothes.
I don't care about anythingelse, I just I have to get out
of here.
They didn't know really what'sgoing on.

(23:36):
Now I think they knew Peoplearen't stupid, right, because
I'd gotten really thin.
Yeah, my personality had changed.
Looking back, my family wouldsay you were changing so
drastically your personality.
You got quiet.
You know, my personality isoutgoing and they came and
helped me.
Her and her husband came andhelped me.

(23:57):
We just packed with mainlyclothes, my shoes, and we took
off.
And that was the beginning ofme leaving and just saying I'm
not going back to that.
But there was a minister whowas friends with him, who knew a

(24:17):
lot what was going on by then,and he was trying to help him.
So I don't know.
Do you want me to stop?
Do you want to answer somequestions?

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Well, yes, because I think, as a therapist, I see
Christian women come into myoffice who are in cycles of
abuse.
It's not always physical abuse,but it's neglect, it's drug use
, it's all kinds of things.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
The emotional abuse.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Right, right, yeah, and narcissism, the control, the
manipulation, the fear.
It really does a number andmore and more and more people
say I just feel like I'm losingmy mind, I feel like I'm going
crazy and I think that's whatthe enemy wants.
But as a Christian woman, thetendency for them is exactly

(25:08):
what you know.
I'm going to pray more, I'mgoing to fast more, I have to
hold this together.
What are people going to think?
The illusion of ministry andpreaching.
I wanted you to speak on theconfusion.
I wanted you to speak on theconfusion.
And did you ever like?
At what point did you begin tosee, okay, this isn't God.

(25:31):
Did you always know that wasn'tGod?
Did you ever think, like, atwhat point did you say to
yourself this isn't God's willfor me, this isn't something I
need to stay in.
I mean because because that'sso hard to to help Christians,

(25:52):
because we're told to submit toyour husbands, we're told let
them be the leader, and theconfusion of him being in
ministry, going to a church topreach, would be tremendous.
That constant wrestle.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Well, that's a great question.
I will say this let's go back afew steps, because you touched
on something that I didn'tmention.
The verbal abuse is what I haddealt with even more later on,
after I was out of it.
It affected me greatly becauseyou're told it's all in your

(26:30):
head.
Right.
Your bell opens.
You're stupid, right?
Why didn't you move that offthat desk like that?
You're so dumb.
When you're listening to thatday after day, it eventually
affects you.
It really affects you, you know.
We hear that saying.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Changes our brain chemistry.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, who you hang out with, who you allow that's
what I talk about all the time.
Who you allow to pour into youis what you're regurgitating.
Right, it began to affect me.
I mean, it began to up myself-esteem.
I had no self-esteem, right, myconfidence level went to the
bottom.
I mean it was.
I questioned everything and Iwas scared.

(27:10):
I had so much anxiety.
Can I just tell you one quickstory before I go into it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
So this is more in the beginning, where I learned about panic
attacks.
I always thought panic attackswere for crazy people.
Just to be honest, I neverexperienced one.
I'll never forget this.
I went into the grocery storeto get groceries.

(27:30):
I have a basket full of foodand I begin to feel fleshed.
My heart begins to race, Ibegin to feel anxiety, I begin
to feel like I'm about to dieand I'm losing control.
I run to the freezer and I putmy head in there.
That doesn't help.
I leave the cart there, run outto my car and I begin to just

(27:53):
bawl.
Oh my god, what's going on?
God, I can't live this way.
I'll never, ever forget it wasat free for less.
I'll never, ever forget that.
But that was the beginning ofall of these emotional issues
and mental health even mentalhealth issues starting to happen
, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
But I would say you learn to not trust yourself.
It creates so much doubt thatyou don't even trust yourself.
And when you don't trustyourself, you don't know.
You can't distinguish fromGod's voice, the devil's voice,
your own voice.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
You second guess yourself all the time.
And that's where I was.
Finally, I got to a place whereI would say, the first two
years I was just losing it.
I was just maybe three years,but I would say, as I got closer

(28:47):
to when I left, I began to tellmyself you're going to get out
of this.
This is not.
Don't you dare buy into thisstuff.
I began to speak to myself.
I know that sounds crazy, but Ihad to and I said, jesus, I
need you to help me.
And I would just bawl God, Ineed you to help me.
I know that sounds crazy, but Ihad to and I'd say, jesus, I
need you to help me.
I would just bawl God, I needyou to help me.

(29:07):
I can't do this.
This is not normal.
I know this isn't what you meanto submit to your husband.
This is not normal.
God, this goes against who youare.
Right Church.
They're supposed to love us.
You love the church.
So I was battling all of thisbut it clicked.
Something clicked in me when hehad taken off for about three

(29:29):
days, because he would do thatand I wouldn't hear from him and
if I called him and he finallyanswered, he would usually cuss
me out, get me out at me, youknow just all this weird stuff.
And but finally I started likeI don't know.
I don't even know how toexplain it, kathy.
I began to speak almost likelife, but I was perfect.
I'm getting out of this.
I am not living this way forthe rest of my life.

(29:52):
I can't fix it.
And this is before.
You know, nowadays everybodytalks about mental health.
We may have the mask.
Peel back the layers, go gethelp.
This is before that was reallyaccepted.
Go get help.
This is before that was reallyaccepted.
You just kind of had to sufferin silence.
You know, right, right, but Idon't know and it maybe it was
my mom and dad that what theyput in me as a young girl just

(30:15):
you're gonna get through this,you can do this.
You know, and I think that kindof something clicked in me.
I'm not sure exactly when, butsomething clicked in me.
I I'm not sure exactly when,but something clicked in me.
I am not going to be a victimlike this forever and I'm not
going to die like this.
And because then it got to apoint where I started getting
scared, like what, if I getkilled, you know your mind

(30:36):
starts playing with you becausethere's this great control,
trying to control your mind,trying to change your mindset.
And when they start isolatingyou from your family and friends
, that's what was going on.
Right for sure I could die.
You know your mind just goes.
So I think that is when itreally started to click.

(30:56):
I'm not living this way anymore.
I'm leaving.
But then I had a baby growinginside me so I wanted so bad to
make it work, because I now havea baby.
Yeah, you know that.
So that was the tormenting,wrestling, tug of war that was
going on inside me I like thatand.

(31:18):
but to say all of that, therewas still something in me that
finally rose up and said I'm notliving this way.
This is not God's will, this isnot God's way.
I remember that because no onereally needed much of anything
during that time.
It's just not God.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
And, looking back, it's so obvious, you know, when
the Bible says the devil comesto steal, kill and destroy.
The devil did want to kill you,of course, no doubt.
And they say um, I went througha lot of training to become a
court-informed therapist,working with families and dv and
stuff, and they this theresearch says that if a man will

(31:58):
strangle you or choke you, thathe has propensity to murder you
.
And so it's.
It's one of the signs that theylook for is choking that was.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
that was one of the big things I dealt with from the
beginning the choking, thestone and thrown against the
wall with my throat against thewall, and I was scared, but I
didn't start really getting.
I mean, I don't even want to, Idon't know if I should even put
this out there, but there weretimes that I would be sleeping,
that I would have a bottle ofhairspray and a knife in my

(32:30):
other hand and I'd sleep out inthe front room Just because,
unlike if something happens, Ihave a knife and I have a bottle
of hairspray.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, Well to protect yourself.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, to protect yourself, yeah.
So you know, before we moveaway from this a little bit, you
know, steph, it is such a Ifeel like there is such a
religious piece of it.
All you know the confusion thatsets in for Christian women.
So what do you tell Christianwomen when they're in cycles?

(33:05):
Because it is very hard to see?
One thing I know withnarcissists and borderline
personality types is they usesomething we call fog, fear,
obligation and guilt.
Those are always themanipulation tactics that they
use to control victims.
But what would you say to thewoman who is struggling to

(33:30):
reconcile that their husband maynot be godly and may not be the
man of God that God sent tothem?
Because that's what you thought.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, and the thing is it's so hard because the
scripture says what God hasjoined together, let no man put
asunder.
Right your marriage to work.
God loves marriages Right,right and work.
But, like I said, healthy.
He wants them to be healthy andsometimes we end up with the

(34:02):
wrong people, if I can say that.
But I have had women evenrecently someone who I have two
types of what I deal with withwomen nowadays who go through
this, and I always want to tryto include the pastor if that's
possible.
I think that's important.
Who you say is your covering.
But I also put in there pastorsare not counselors in per se.

(34:29):
They don't know how to.
I always call it bring out thestuff from your brain that
you've been packing up.
Good, they don't know how tounpack.
So having a question was reallyimportant.
But I have had women tell methat their pastor has told them
you need to stay with him andwe're going to get help.
We'll talk to him.

(34:49):
No, talking to him isn't goingto fix him.
He needs help.
He needs deliver, deliver,deliver.
He's got to do all theseunhealthy habits too, which is
where counseling comes in.
So I've had women deal withthat where pastors are not
supportive of them and they justwant to stay in that place and
keep praying and they're goingto have a little talk with them.

(35:11):
They're going to hit them withthe wheel.
That's crazy.
But I've also had other womenwho I said have you talked to
your pastor?
Why don't you go talk to yourpastor, find out what he
believes here?
Because I really feel likethat's so important.
And just recently a lady, herpastor, told her you need to be
out of that house, get anapartment.

(35:31):
I'm not saying you have todivorce right now, but you need
to separate to protect yourself.
And I was so happy.
I was like thank God for apastor that wants to protect his
saint, the sheep God has givento him, and that is the kind of
pastor we need.
But that's what I always tellwomen Right off If they're in

(35:52):
church.
Now I, I talk to women they'renot going to church anymore,
they're just, they're not.
Sometimes they're not evenreally saved or scared or
looking to Jesus, really, butthey're not me.
But I always tell them go tocounseling, but go to Christian
counseling, right, there's adifference, there's a big

(36:13):
difference, big difference.
So that's what I do right off,literally right off.
I'm like and you need a supportgroup.
If you don't want to go give acounselor per se right now, you
need a support group, peoplethat you can trust.
So think each woman it's.
It's an individual basis typething of what they're dealing

(36:34):
with their support group, theirfamily group, their family,
because sometimes their familyis so dysfunctional too.
I mean, they have family, theyhave their family.
And then, like I said,sometimes you have pastors that,
no, you stay together and we'regoing to hit them on the hand
and tell them no, no, no.
But then you have other pastorswho are like oh no, you get out
of there now, we got to protectyou.
That's kind of how I deal withit from the beginning, and then

(36:56):
I do more Right right, yeah, andso for anyone watching, one of
the things Stephanie said wasshe didn't tell.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
And I think you have to always tell.
You have to tell somebody.
You cannot live in silence Ifsomeone that you're with is
isolating you from your friendsand your family, don't let them.
That's always, always, always ahuge red flag and trying to
cause you to keep a secret.

(37:26):
Don't do that either.
And so at some point, Steph,you didn't care anymore what
someone thought of you.
You didn't care if your familyor anyone thought you're being
rebellious again.
You were going to just tell andI stopped caring.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
I stopped caring what people thought about me Before.
I used to always care whatpeople thought about me because
of the glass house I lived in.
I didn't want to let anyonedown, I didn't care.
I was pushed, my back wasagainst the wall, I was dead.
I was like I was pushed, myback was against the wall, I was
dead.
I was like I'm not telling whatthis anymore.
And so I did take off.
But I had my dad and my brother.

(38:01):
They were huge supporters.
They were through it all,especially in the beginning.
They were like this isunhealthy, this is not God's way
, and they wish.
Now my brother felt some things.
I don't want to speak for him,but there were things I think
that my brother saw.
I wasn't engaged about it untilI came to him I had left, and

(38:26):
so then I wanted to take off,you know, and get as far away as
I could from that.
So he couldn't find me.
And sometimes they want to findyou and try to control you.
You know they're stoppedwherever you go you know, oh
yeah, and it's.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
it's so hard once you go away.
Yeah, you have to.
I tell people you have to blockand stop all communication,
just just for your own sanitysake, until you can get back to
a place of thinking straight,thinking clearly, being able to
discern your own thoughts andthe voice of the Lord.
It takes a while once you leavethat, kathy.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
The one thing I did wrong was I ended up in DC, as
you know Washington DC was.
I ended up in DC as you know,washington DC and I just threw
myself in a work of God.
I kind of started in Asheville,virginia, moving my way up into
DC because I wanted to get intopolitics, and so I landed a
phenomenal job on K Street,right by the White House, and I

(39:29):
was having a blast Like I was infreedom.
No one knew me, I didn't haveto tell anybody anything that
was going on.
I had a new set of friends and,I will be honest, I loved it.
Yeah, anonymity vision, but Isuppressed everything I went
through, I suppressed it and Iwould not talk about it, all of

(39:53):
the stuff.
But eventually it startedpopping its ugly head up.
It started coming up in myrelationships with guys I would
go out with, even some of myfriendships.
I became kind of a drama queen,you know, because that's going
to happen.
Usually, when someone's alwaysdrama, always drawn to drama,
there's something deeper goingon.
Sure, sure.

(40:14):
Because when you're whole, whenyou're when you're whole, when
you're healed, you have morepeace.
You want peace, you don't wantto always creating drama and
you're not drawn to drama.
In fact, you're running from it, right, right.
And I was creating drama, butthat was because I didn't go to
a counselor.
I didn't face it.
It was almost like I was tryingto act like I never went

(40:35):
through it.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, because you left CLC and then you went with
Brother Mitchell with his churchand helped build his church
with him.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
No, I wasn't Uh-uh.
I went to church barely andthen I was out.
No, I stopped going.
Okay, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
I, I stopped going, Okay.
So, yeah, I didn't know that.
Okay, Because I thought whenyou left yes, and I thought that
when you had left you wentbecause he had just left also to
start his church I thought youwere going to help plant with
him, and so that was the last Iheard from you.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yeah, I went In the beginning.
I went I had a really goodfriend there and I stayed with
them to get to, you know, get myshit on the ground, get a job,
and I moved out, and I wasdetermined, though, to move into
the DC area.
I wanted to just throw myselfinto that lifestyle that I went

(41:33):
to Mitchell's church briefly,but I didn't stay there.
I didn't, okay, okay.
So what happened was I wasthinking about this recently is
I was so broken, I was sowounded, I was a victim.
During that time.
I hate, oh sure, you know I'm avictim, you know, all the time.

(41:53):
I think there's time and placeyou have to climb out of it, but
I was a victim.
I was so messed up and my friendcan tell you that I was a
different person during thattime Like, I was just insecure,
all of this stuff.
But I became angry with God,and that's when the spiral began
.
I wanted nothing to do withchurch.

(42:15):
I saw, then, all the stuff Isaw my parents deal with, all
the things that I dealt with inthe glass house, all of these
religion, the fakes, the, themeanness, the, just the
judgmentalism, all this stuff.
It all came together like avolcano, and everything began to
erupt.
And then I had what I wassuppressing with all of that

(42:40):
abuse.
So that was all going on and Ijust left church altogether.
I didn't want anything to dowith it at all, so I just so.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, steph, how did?
Can you walk us through that alittle bit, steph?
Can you walk us through that alittle bit?
Because that's where myinterest is really in what
happens in the heart and in thethoughts.
Because through the abusiverelationship, you were praying,
you were trusting God, you wereasking God to get you out.

(43:11):
You got out.
Asking God to get you out, yougot out.
So your faith was I don't knowif strong is the right word but
you were still reaching andturning towards the Lord in that
whole situation.
And so what do you thinktriggered the spiral?
Do you know where?
Like how did it go from that tothen being angry with the Lord?

Speaker 3 (43:36):
You know I'm not sure of the exact moment that it
started, but I think even beforeI had gotten married I had seen
so much and I had questions andI would even ask my mom and dad
things, and I saw them getdealt a bad hand.
I saw them being treated poorlyby some people.
I saw a lot of just stuff thatis contrary to God's character.

(44:03):
So I think I already had alittle bit of that in me.
I didn't understand it all.
I would just kind of ignore it.
This is part of the church,it's just what happens.
But I think after I left it waslike all those things that
Bonnie Marshall, who's helped meI was packing up in my mind.

(44:24):
They were all packed tightlyand there was like a padlock on
them.
There was a lock there when Imoved.
It was almost like I feltrelieved.
I'm out of where everyone knowsme.
I'm out of that class house.
I'm now in a place where it's abig world.
No one knows me.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
I love it.
You can finally explore who youmight be and you let go of all
of the things that you wereliving under.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
Yeah, I think sometimes we try to hold things
together, we try to look thepart, we try to be the part when
everyone's eyes are on us, whenwe're doing what's expected of
us, so what we feel like isexpected of us.
So, when I got away from thereit changed and I went to their
church briefly and I began tomake friends.

(45:19):
I got a really good job inTyson's Corner and then I met a
bunch of friends.
I think I dated a guy for awhile, I was just having fun,
basically, and then I finallylanded that job in DC on K
Street, and that's when I goteven more friends.
I mean, I had tons of friendsand I was doing all these um

(45:41):
event, political events and Iwas loving life, literally
loving it, and again, no oneknew me and I just left that.
No one knew me.
I know that makes sound funnyto you, but I just it was.
It was like relief, it was likeyeah, yeah for me, but I
through all of that, that's whenI was like I was just very
jaded, jaded with religion andall the things I'd seen, coupled

(46:06):
with the abuse.
So it's kind of like thatvolcano, like I said, ready to
explode.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
So do you think that you didn't know how to separate
God from the religion?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
I didn't know with religion.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Right yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, I was like you allowed this.
You allowed all of this.
You allowed me to go throughthis.
You allowed what I saw myparents go through.
You allowed this.
You allowed that.
You know all this stuff.
I began to just question I Inever questioned that there was
a god.
I knew this god.
I never questioned them, but Icoupled him with the religion

(46:48):
and with the people, the folks.
And then it got back to me thatpeople, rumors, had started
about me.
No one knew what was going onin my life.
They didn't know what all hadgone through.
I didn't put it out there.
Hey, I was abused.
I did this, right, right.
But everyone was surmising andmaking assumptions.

(47:10):
So rumors were flying aroundabout me and I heard about it
and that just made me more angry.
I was like like I want nothingto do with you.
Hypocritical christian, you knowhow you think, right?
Yeah, I'm done.
You know, see you guys.
You know, yeah, through this Iwill say my mom and dad.
They loved me, they, they keptin touch with me often and we

(47:34):
had a good relationship.
My mom and dad all I mean mymom there were a few times she
got a little preachy.
I remember one time sayingmommy, can you keep preaching at
me?
It's not gonna work, I can't dothis right now.
I'm in a stand where I amspiritually.
I'm just not there right now.
So but my mom and I developed areally deep relationship
through that and my dad and Ialways he'd call me all the time

(47:57):
Like he was all yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Well, I know that in my case I never before I prayed
back through in 1995, I thinkbut I never, ever wanted to go
back to Pentecost because I waslike you I just didn't know how
to separate God from church.

(48:21):
And when I did pray backthrough, I just heard the Lord
say keep your eyes on me.
And that's what I learned to do.
But it is still, and even today, my church is very different.
Today, I think there's suchlove there and the pastor really
just allows God to change theheart because he's the only one

(48:46):
that can.
But it's still such a wrestlein being around certain
environments where you feel like, oh, they're judging me.
We've got to look this way, andI think, when I'm thinking
about backsliders in thispodcast, that is such a big part
of why they don't come back toa Pentecostal church is because

(49:10):
they acquaint it with what theyfelt.
And I think there's churchesout there that are not that, and
then there are some that stillare that.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
You hit the nail on the head.
You are so right about that,and I hate it when I hear people
say, yeah, when they saw me,they felt so much conviction.
No, they felt your judgmentalspirit.
They felt your judgmentalspirit.
They felt your judgmentalspirit.
Now I'm not saying that's foreveryone, but someone said that.
I've heard a few people saythat, and they're very harsh in

(49:43):
judgment, right, and just harshtowards people that don't look
like them, don't act like them,aren't them, and so they're not
feeling conviction because theysaw you.
They're feeling convictionwanting to run away from you
because of your spirit.
So when we're people, weunderstand there's a difference.
There are some churches thatare full of love, full of love,

(50:06):
full of love, and the greatestof these is love.
The fruit of the spirit is soimportant to me nowadays.
I'm always checking myself.
It's so important.
Yes, I'm always checking myself.
It's so important.
Yes, preaching the gospel, allof that, but are you doing it
with love?
Are you doing it withcompassion?
You need to marry thosetogether.
It's so important.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
That's what I tell people all the time is, the
Bible says you will know them bytheir fruit, but we often
forget to evaluate fruit, to seeif there is love, if there is
peace.
You know, because that does goa long way and people can look
the part and have the rightcredentials.

(50:49):
And even in therapy, there'stherapists out there that are
practicing occultism andwitchcraft and crazy stuff, and
it's super scary because youreally don't know what you're
getting.
But I think that someone thatlooks nice and looks the part

(51:10):
and has a church or whatever thecase may be, can be very
misleading and confusing,especially for the backslider
who really wants to know God,but maybe again or has kept
communication open with Godsince they've been gone.
So when you were out, did youpray, did you talk to him?

(51:33):
Did you know that you wereangry and you were just not
ready, or did you think aboutany of that?

Speaker 3 (51:41):
The first few years I didn't really pray a lot.
I had a lot of anger in me, alot of anger.
I was very angry.
Little things would set me off.
I was a no-nonsense girl.
I became this no-nonsense girl.
I'd put you in your place, andthat's not really my personality
, you know.
But I do that season absolutely, but I would say because I was

(52:05):
going out with my girlfriends,like we didn't start going out
till like 11 am, I mean 11 pm,excuse me, staying out till 2 pm
, or am I got my am pms mixed up.
Staying out to 2, 3 am,sometimes 4 am, you know.
So that was my life for a while.
About four days a week, that'swhat I would do with all my
girlfriends, but I would comehome.

(52:33):
I remember, though, about threeyears later, coming home from
that, and I would feel that tugof the Holy Spirit trying to
soften my heart.
And I remember one particulartime I'd been out till 3 in the
morning, got home to my condoand I opened the door, shut the
door and I just began to cry andI just began to weep and I was

(52:55):
like I know, god, I'm so farfrom you.
I know I'm doing things youdon't approve of.
I know I got hate in my heart.
I have unforgiveness in myheart, I'm upset, I'm jaded, I'm
angry.
I know God, I don't know how tofix myself and I don't want to
go back to that.
I was so worried about goingbackwards to that.

(53:18):
Does that make sense?
It does, yeah.
So that was the beginning,though, of God really tugging at
me, gently pulling at me, justlike I'm calling you Because I
believe God.
He sometimes doesn't.
Just, it's not a bolt oflightning, sometimes it's just

(53:38):
mental nudges.
And then I remember reading ascripture and that kind of
tugging at my heart about peace,and I was like, okay, but yet I
was still tying all of that toreligion.
Right, it took a few years forme to finally surrender, and the

(53:59):
surrender came.
You're going to this is, I'mnot going to go all into it, but
the surrender came.
I was starting to write a lot ofsongs, because I would you know
, I used to sing a lot and I hada keyboard.
So I was writing a ton of songsand Bucky and Beth that was a
healing part of my journey, andsome of it was an anguished song

(54:20):
, some of it was Christian, someof it was love songs, but I
would record in a studio byHoward University and I was the
only Christian there, with a lotof rappers.
I would sometimes sing onbackup for them.
I had the last student too.
I had the last year One timewriting a song.
I started writing a song and notto freak you out but a dark

(54:42):
spirit came under the door.
I saw the shadow of it come andthis was in 2008.
And it was demonic and I knowall about that.
Okay, Sure, yeah, we do.
Yeah, I could tell you somestories, but this particular is
what really like?

(55:04):
Call on the name of Jesus.
And that's what I.
It was going on, this, whateverwas going on, and I was alone
and I began to just sing Jesusin the name of Jesus, and I
wasn't even saved.
I was not serving God at all, Iwanted nothing to do with it,
but I began to call on the nameof Jesus, not ever forget it.

(55:25):
And after a little while itleft, it completely left, and I
wrote a song called call on thatname, jesus.
That's where it came from.
But that was the beginning ofme starting to surrender my
heart back to God.
I realized there was so muchpower in the name and that God
is going to do healing in you,stephanie, and it's not going to

(55:46):
be the way you think it's goingto be.
We don't want to go back tothat, because we have this
vision of everything thathappened.
Well, god doesn't want us to goback to what broke us.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Right.
Thank you, that's powerfulRight, because it wasn't him.
That's not who he is.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
So yeah, that was the beginning of me surrendering.
I mean, I left out a lot ofdetails, a lot of really
important points, but I knowthis is a podcast.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Well, I think those, steph, those are so important
because the demonic realm isvery real and I think you know,
when we are away from the Lord,we have open doors that give it
access and stuff.
And I think, being able torecognize it and see it come

(56:36):
under the door and recognize itfor what it is, god was already
with you, showing you,protecting you in all of that.
He never left, of course, but Ithink that aspect of all of it
is so important because that iswhere our battle is and we do
tend to minimize the spiritualsignificance of what happens in

(56:59):
the flesh, but I believe ithappens in the spirit first,
before it ever reaches the flesh.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
Oh, yes, it was a battle for my soul.
That's what I felt so strong.
There's a battle in the spiritrealm going on for my soul right
now, right now, and that scaredme too, but I knew the name of
Jesus was so powerful.
You don't forget how you'reraised, you don't forget your
roots, and I just call on Jesus.
I couldn't say anything else, Ijust said Jesus in the name of

(57:29):
Jesus, and then I began to getlouder and louder and louder,
and then I saw it leap.
That was in 2008.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Wow.
And so then what happened afterthat?
Because you said in the bio,2015 is when you surrendered.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
So I got married, okay, the 2000,.
That's when I started goingback to church, eventually
started going back to church,eventually started going back to
church.
And then I met Asbel in Januaryof 2009.
Okay, we got married in July2009.
Okay, and then he brought inall of his baggage.

(58:11):
He was a PK, he was jaded.
We both said we would never bein ministry ever again.
Neither of us wanted anythingto do with it at all.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Did he come from a UPC background.
Also, asbel, yeah, oh, he did.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
On the East Coast and he saw a lot more of what we
were talking about control thattype of environment.
He dealt with totally differentthings than the way my parents
did ministry, so he was from adifferent perspective, was
extremely jaded, and that's forhis story to tell that he
brought our baggage in and itwas a ride right.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
we just we're starting to talk about it now
but when you guys, when you wentback to church in 2008, did you
um go to a non-denominationalchurch?
Did you go back to apentecostal?

Speaker 3 (59:03):
I tried a few non-denominational churches, but
finally I began to go to um,back to mitchell's, just one day
, uh, sundays, and that was thebeginning.
And you know, as we know,pastor Chester Mitchell is just
such a kind son, such a right so, and he didn't pressure me

(59:25):
anything like that.
And that was the beginning.
It was later, in 08 too, Ibelieve it was later, like in
fall 08, and then 09 is when Imet Alice Ball, and then we get
married and we moved toLouisiana.
And then we have explosionshappening because I hadn't
really healed, I hadn't gone tocounseling still Still Right.

(59:46):
Yeah, I mean, god, you can getback, as we call in the church,
surrender your heart back to God.
But you have to undo all thoseunhealthy habits, you have to
face the trauma that you wentthrough.
It's so what I?
I thought I was fine.
I thought, oh, I'm over it, Imoved out of it, I'm doing great
, and now I'm back in church,now I'm serving god, now I'm
serving god.
But when we got married, all ofthose things begin to rear its

(01:00:10):
echo.
Head almost didn't make it andhe was bringing his stuff in.
So then we went to counselingtogether and that was the
journey where I began to heal.
I wasn't able to really doministry per se With everything
in me until 2015 is when Ifinally launched it and went
full time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Yeah Well, because I know, like the heart, we can
move away from what hurt us.
In time we can create distancefrom the incident or incidents,
but the heart is storing all ofthat and the emotional effects
of that.
It might be repressed, like yousaid, but one little thing, and

(01:00:55):
especially when it comes to anysort of sense of control or
request or anything I'm sureAsbel was not controlling at all
, but just the nature of arelationship and the fear once
you've been a victim I was alsoa victim there's just this fight

(01:01:19):
in you that you don't want toever be, that no one is ever
going to do that to you again.
No one is ever going to tellyou You're going to think for
yourself.
You're not, you know.
You prove it first and thenmaybe I'll believe you.
You know all the things that goon and in some respects that's
healthy to a degree.

(01:01:41):
Obviously, everything canswitch, but I feel like in all
of that, the Lord, in my case,was training me to know myself
and to know Him, training me toknow myself and to know him.
And so and I I don't know whatit was like for you, but that

(01:02:05):
was probably the very firststages of you setting boundaries
, you know, even though theywere extreme probably, but at
least you had began to set themfor yourself, to keep a healthy
perimeter around you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Yeah, it was.
It was my boundaries wereextreme and his were extreme, so
and he's got the type Apersonality, he's a leader, he
owns several companies, so hetakes charge.
He'll bulldoze you over, so Iwould sometimes confuse that
with trying to control.

(01:02:32):
Yes, aggression.
We had a ton of issues for awhile, like it was.
It got really bad and I'm likeyou're not telling me what to do
.
You know I'm independent, I'mgoing back to DC, I don't need a
man.
You know I would have thoseactions.
So that's when we realized,between both of us, we need
counseling or we're not going tomake it, we're not going to get

(01:02:53):
passed another year.
There's just no way.
So we started going tocounseling, but it took a while,
and that's another story forhim and me.
What we're talking about now isit didn't happen overnight, the
counseling, because we wouldstop, we would start back up.
It was like I would say, fouryears until we got even five,

(01:03:13):
until we got to that healthierplace and it it's definitely
been a journey, the healingjourney it really had steph,
what happened to your baby?
oh, is that?
Yeah, um, that okay.
So, oh, let's go, let's back,let rewind, okay.

(01:03:35):
So after I had left, before Imoved to DC, I had moved to
where I hate putting all these.
I moved to where my parentswere, remember, when he was a
superintendent.
I was there and I knew I wasn'tthere for long but I didn't know
what to do.
I was running, I was hiding allof that stuff and I had a

(01:03:56):
miscarriage.
Then it was.
It was very painful, but Iremember praying God.
If I have this baby, I'm tiedto him forever and it's.
I don't know how to handle thatbecause I'm scared.
And I remember praying thoseprayers and other prayers and I

(01:04:18):
was intense in my prayers duringthat time.
But I wanted the baby, you knowRight, right, because I had had
a little bit of problem havingchildren.
So I had the miscarriage.
I was about four and a halfmonths, so it was.
You know, there was that's bigyeah, yeah.
And it was when it was going on.

(01:04:40):
I was at the ER and it was allhappening.
There was a part of me that Iwas crying, but then there was a
part of me and this soundshorrible.
I was relieved.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
It was like a bittersweet thing, like, oh, I
can move on, I'll never have totalk to him again.
You know, that was my mind, andthe other was like, but I have
this baby.
I would have been a great mom,you know.
And so there were thesefeelings going on during that
time and then I kind of blottedthat out, to be honest, and

(01:05:13):
that's when I moved to DC.
I was like, okay, I'm startingfresh, I'm starting new and
interesting.
You say that About a few yearsago there was the Mother's Day
going on here in Austin and ithit me so hard, kathy, I like
had a meltdown.

(01:05:35):
I didn't even want to go tochurch because I'm like, all
talking about kids, it was theweirdest thing.
I all my eyes.
That was like I'm not a mom.
I had infidelity issues, I hada miscarriage.
I would have been a phenomenalmother.
God, I wish I could have hadsome kids.
You know I went through this.
Yeah Right, I hadn't reallythought about it until, well,
it's grief, yeah.

(01:05:55):
And so it hit me really hard.
Now I'm doing great, you know,I'm fine, but it was that
Mother's Day about two or threeyears ago I can't remember the
exact year and it hit me, and itwas during COVID too.
So you know there were a lot ofinterruptions going on, so
maybe that I'd played into it, II'd played into it.
I'm not sure, but that's whathappened with my baby.
I had a miscarriage, but Ibelieve it was a boy.

(01:06:18):
He's up in heaven, you know.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
That's what I told myself yes, yes, he is
absolutely up in heaven, and Iknow it's a difficult thing, but
I do think it's so important,because these are the areas of
confusion people wrestle with intheir walk with God.
You know the dichotomy thatexists between feeling peace and

(01:06:49):
then not ever wanting to betied to that.
You know so many dichotomiesthat exist as we walk through
the process of this faith, walkwith Jesus and trying to
reconcile all of that.
We can't always reconcile it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
No, you can't.
And that scripture inCorinthians.
It says for we walk by faith,not by sight.
Oh, my word, that's become kindof my banner.
So many things go on, evenaside from what I went through
there.
But after that, when I wasgoing through the healing
journey and then other thingsI've gone through in the last 10

(01:07:29):
years, that scripture is likeyou're walking by faith, you
can't fight what you see.
You have to walk by faith oryou're going to drive yourself
crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
And you have to ask why, while you're walking by
faith, yeah, and for thebacksliders out there or anybody
who is, you know, don't want togo to church or religion, and
all that we understand, Don'twant to go to church or religion
, and all that we understand.
But Stephanie said and this wasmy experience too is God met

(01:08:00):
her where she was In thatrecording studio and the tug
that she felt in her heart, sheresponded to it and the Lord
brought you back into himselfoutside of the walls of a church
.
I know that you believe and Ibelieve church is needful and

(01:08:21):
very helpful when it's a healthyenvironment.
But God is bigger than all ofthat and if you would just start
, just talk to him.
I think if you just start theprocess of saying, okay, god, I
know you're there someplace, I'mhere, whatever that looks like

(01:08:44):
for you.
For everyone it's going to bedifferent, but I think if you
could just begin a process oftalking to him, he will reveal
himself to you and he will loveyou back to himself and gently
guide you to where he wants youto be and when you can trust
that relationship.

(01:09:05):
Because I tell people, you know,going back, the Lord really
gave me a lot of signs and a lotof full circle moments, which
is why I'm now in a UPC church,but I probably would have never
went back had God not veryspecifically directed me.

(01:09:28):
So my faith is in Him, not inpeople, not in the organization,
not in the religion.
It's vertical first, and then,if Him and I are okay, I can go
anywhere.
I can go to any church I wantand we're okay.
And so, for anyone that'swatching, if you haven't fixed

(01:09:55):
this relationship with the Lord,that's the most important one,
is the one that's vertical.
You can worry about all of thatstuff as God, as you become
healed within the Lord.
So I just wanted to put that inthere because I know that's
what happened for you is whatyou said.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
You're right, kathy.
That's what happened for you iswhat you said.
You're right, kathy.
Matthew 28, 19 talks about.
He tells the disciples to go,make disciples, and they didn't
say we're building a church, abuilding here, and you're all to
come to us.
He told them to go out.
If you look throughout thescripture, most of the time
they're going out.

(01:10:34):
Right, that's what Jesus does.
He goes out.
He finds us in the workplaces,in the clubs.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Right, because he's looking for the wounded, the
brokenhearted.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
And that's what he did, because I wasn't going to
go into a building, no way.
He leads to me and you'reexactly right.
So I agree with you on that.
Pray what feels comfortablewith you.
On that, pray what feelcomfortable with you right now.
Don't feel pressured to dosomething a certain way.
Don't even worry about whereyou go.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Perhaps that's so good, kathy yeah, because god,
you know he loves us and I thinkwhen he redeems our story, I
I've said before I never reallyunderstood the cross.
I knew it, I knew that that wasthe plan of salvation, I knew
it was needful, but I neverunderstood it Grew up not really

(01:11:28):
reading my Bible.
But until you love and you loseand you watch someone that you
love walk away and leave theLord and go down this path, I
think all the time how muchGod's love for us really exists
and we don't really know ituntil we experience it.
And if people could just leavea little room of questioning,

(01:11:54):
what if God really is good?
Because so many people see himas punitive and punishing?
But what if he really is good?
Because so many people see himas punitive and punishing?
But what if he really is good?
And what if he really iseverything people say he is?
That's loving and kind andgenerous and it's worth

(01:12:14):
exploring.
I know that sounds like I'mwrapping up, but I'm not,
because I just want to ask a fewmore questions, Steph.
So the other thing I'd like foryou to maybe talk about if you
are comfortable I listened toone of your messages that you
spoke at Promise Land Church.

(01:12:34):
Is that where you still attend?
Are you at that church?

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
Yeah, we're actually the bishop passed away, but
we're at his sense, currently,right now.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Yeah, and you talked about in that message, going
through a three-year depressionwhen your dad passed away.
Yeah, yeah, because we justlive life and it keeps moving,
with or without us.
But could you address that inthe context of you're back,

(01:13:07):
you're serving the Lord, you'remarried, life is going well and
your dad, very quickly, who isthe rock in your life, and your
mom too, but very quickly gotsick, and I listened to Brother
Haney, your brother, talk aboutthe faith that the family had to

(01:13:29):
heal him, and so there's manycomponents as Christians that
we're looking for God's miracle.
We're looking for Him to heal,especially someone like your dad
, who you know, who built such abeautiful work of the Lord, as
you said Christian school,christian college, the radio

(01:13:49):
station, wonderful relationshipswith the community and the
mayor I mean your dad wasplugged in and then he went on
to become superintendent ofUnited Pentecostal Church
International.
I would imagine there would begreat expectation for a miracle

(01:14:11):
and could you just walk usthrough, as a Christian, the
wrestle that you had through allof that?

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
Yeah Well, sometimes it's still fresh to my mind the
wrestle that you had through allof that.
Yeah Well, sometimes it's stillfresh to my mind that part.
I was close to my dad.
All of his kids looked to mydad as that role model, that
rock, and I just he waseverything, everything.
So when that happened, my faithI never doubted that he

(01:14:41):
wouldn't be healed.
I always was believing, alwaysbelieved that God's going to
raise him.
This is just a test, this isjust a trial.
God's going to raise him up.
I mean, I would speak it, Ibelieved it with all my heart.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
With good reason, with good reason to believe it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Mark 11.23 talks about tell this mountain to be
cast into the sea and if youbelieve it, it will take place.
But the one thing that we leaveout, that I've learned since
then just a little window hereis His ways are not our ways.
Right Thoughts are not ourthoughts.
Isaiah says and I've had tolearn that through many things

(01:15:22):
that I've gone through, but backthen I wouldn't even visit that
his ways are not our ways for awhile, because the pain, the
mourning, the grieving was so,it went so deep and then it
moved into a depression, becauseit's normal to grieve, it's
normal to grieve, it's normal tomourn.
Then it moved into a majordepression.

(01:15:44):
I mean, then I started havingthese dreams and demonic dreams,
and it was bad, it was reallybad, and I struggled through all
of that and then finally againI began to pull myself out and I
began to feel like it's time toget out of this.

(01:16:04):
If you don't, you're going tosink deeper and deeper and
deeper, because you're depressed.
I didn't want to go out, I wouldstay home.
If I wasn't working a job, Iwould stay home, keep the blinds
closed.
I wouldn't even sometimes hangout of my pajamas.
And then, when Asbel came wellhome.
If he was in town I had to kickdinner.
I would throw some on, looklike I'd been up and at him.
But I started.

(01:16:25):
He didn't even realize to theextent we talked about recently.
He did not even realize howdark of a place I really was.
It was so bad.
But that's what I dealt withafter my dad died because I
believed God was great.
And then again I questioned God.
And there's nothing wrong withquestioning God.
There's nothing wrong.

(01:16:46):
It's all in how you'requestioning him.
But I, even now, today, I'mlike God.
I've been praying for this.
You're not answering.
What's going on.
Am I not praying in alignmentwith your will?
You know, that's kind of whereI am with God now.
I just alignment with your will, you know, that's kind of where

(01:17:07):
I am with god now.
I just talked to him but and Iwould?
I was upset with god, like whywouldn't you heal him?
Why?
Kind of martha, you know?
Actually I think it was mary ifyou would have been here.
God right, that's kind of likethat came out doubting thomas
and I had.
But I learned a lot throughthose three years two and a half
years of depression that I wentthrough, combined with the
grief in the morning.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Can you talk a little bit more in detail about the
level of darkness and thedepression?
Because I think there'sChristians sitting in church, I
think there's a lot of people onthe pews who really struggle
with anxiety and depression, andthere's so much condemnation
that comes along with that fromthe enemy, and then a lot of

(01:17:52):
self-talk, that that's not okay,that I should be better, I
shouldn't be on medication.
Is it okay to do all thosethings?
I think I just want you to notnormalize it, but the reality of
its existence and maybe justtalk through what you went

(01:18:12):
through.
What were the dreams, what wasthe demonic piece of it?
Because the devil's going tocome in to those places that
were vulnerable and it'simportant to be able to A
recognize it so that we can knowwhat's really going on, because

(01:18:33):
if we're ignorant to hisdevices, then he's going to get
more of a foothold versus maybesomething that you say will
bring clarity to where someone'sliving right now.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
Yeah, you know, I didn't realize how bad the
depression was.
For a while I thought I wasgrieving, but when it moved into
that place where I literallydidn't want to go anywhere Like
going to church I didn't evenwant to go to church and there
were times when Asbel wastraveling I wouldn't go to
church, I would just stay home.
The one sure sign for me was Iwas tired a lot and I had almost

(01:19:11):
like social anxiety.
I didn't want to be aroundpeople, I didn't want to be
around crowds and with Asbel'sjob, job and role, that had to
happen.
So I would sometimes even makeup excuses.
I didn't want to go, I didn'twant to be around people.
My anxiety level was so highand I felt so almost powerless

(01:19:33):
and and I I wasn suicidal.
I'm not going to say that I'mnot going to go that far, but I
lost the will to live.
Yeah, I lost the will to doanything with my life.
I didn't care anymore.
I didn't care, I just didn'tcare.
And I remember one particulartime being on a flight by myself
and I was in the middle of thisand it had gotten really dark

(01:19:55):
and we were having a lot ofturbulence on the plane and it
had gotten really dark and wewere having a lot of turbulence
on the plane and I rememberlooking out the window because I
like the window seats.
I remember thinking I said youknow what, if we crash and we
die, I don't even care, likemaybe we will.
That was how bad I was.
I was like we're going to befine.
You know, I was like digging ahole, a grave for my life.

(01:20:17):
That are digging a hole, agrave for my life.
The other thing that I wouldsay that I dealt with with the
depression was and I mentionedthis but anxiety became so
severe it was almost as if I haddepression and just not wanting
to be around people.
I didn't want to be aroundpeople but I had to go.
You know, we hear that faiththat till you make it, I had to

(01:20:45):
go through interruptions.
Hear that faith that till youmake it, I had to go to options
many times.
So no, really knew.
Not even aspel knew until lateron how dark that.
But then the dream started.
I would say about a year and ahalf into the depression the
dream started and it was um onein particular which it was.
It's very evil, but I found outlater, it was a spirit of
weariness.
There was an old woman glidingup our stairs into my room, our

(01:21:12):
room, and Bella, my little,toward palm, was here.
I was here and Asba was hereand she came and this happened a
lot during this time, thesetype of dreams and she put her
hands out and I was trying tosay Jesus and I couldn't say it.
I was paralyzed, my mouth wasparalyzed that's sleep paralysis
and I was awake.

(01:21:34):
I could see I had now come outof the dream.
It was more like a vision.
Yeah, I was trying to say Jesusand I see it.
I had now come out of the dream.
It's more like a vision.
Yeah, I was Jesus and Icouldn't say it, but eventually,
because I kept trying, geez, itcame out, but it took
everything in.
You see, jesus.
But this happened like I wasdrowning one time and the
demonic figures were comingtowards me and all of this and

(01:21:57):
again I I was trying to sayjesus, but I couldn't say it.
This happened probably four orfive times during that that
depression, and it was always.
They were coming at me tryingto take me.
So I knew then that I was in aplace of.
It was spiritual.
Now it wasn't just.
Could you get a grief?
You're gonna mour to mourn.

(01:22:18):
Depression is one thing, andthen it didn't even deeper,
darker things.
It was almost like there wasoppression.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
And oppression.
For those that are watching, Ialways explain it Oppression is
an external.
The external force pushing inversus depression is usually
physiological and internal.
Internal sorrow, internalsadness that couples with
physical symptoms, but then itcan morph into oppression, which

(01:22:55):
is then demonic.

Speaker 3 (01:22:57):
Yes, and when I would get into my prayer closet, I
just cried a lot.
I didn't pray as much, I justcried.
I wept and wept.
I was very sorrowful and had noalmost I don't want to say no
hope, because I was in church, Iwas serving Jesus.
Yes, I felt helpless.

(01:23:18):
I felt like a weight was on me.
I didn't want to go home.
I was serving Jesus.
I felt helpless.
I felt like a weight was on me.
I didn't want to go home.
I didn't want to get out.
I didn't want to get dressed.
It took every day to getdressed and to look halfway
decent to go out.
I had to get dressed and go outto events, political events,
church or whatever.
I felt that smile.
I was dead.

(01:23:39):
I literally was dead, and thiswent on.
This was a few months right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
So what changed?
How did you come through thatstuff?
I mean, I know that you stilllive.
We will always live with theloss of our loved ones and there
will always be days of of that.
But how did you get free fromthe oppression and the darkness
that you were in?

Speaker 3 (01:24:04):
Okay, again, this is.
It's something God has put inme.
I got sick and tired of livingthat way.
Something, finally excuse me,snapped I call it snapped to me
and said no, you've gone on toolong living this way.
Satan, you are not controllingmy life anymore.

(01:24:26):
You're not controlling myemotions.
No more, I'm not living thisway anymore.
I'm tired of living beneath,I'm tired of living in this.
I am coming out, I am comingout.
It's funny as nowadays, when I'mministering, writing, talking
to people, I always say you'recoming out of this.
But it's just, I've gonethrough it.
But I had to keep the pep talksalong the way and I didn't get

(01:24:50):
to read the word and I wouldsometimes put the Bible over my
head and I would just pray overmy mind because of the mind, and
then I would pray, pray, andthen I began to pray and then I
would sometimes go into speakingin tongues, because sometimes
place you need to be right warand war and war.
And eventually I came out of it.

(01:25:11):
Eventually it just I came outof it.
But I had to give myself peptalks, had to preach to to
myself, had to speak life overmyself, and I kind of think it's
a little radical, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
We have to.
Your will has got to show upagain, and I think you know when
we talk about free will, I talkabout that.
A lot in cognitive behavioraltherapy is we can choose what
we're going to believe.
It's not that simple, of course, but the act of our will has
got to be involved to eitherremain a victim because

(01:25:51):
victimization is very real,right, and grief is very real,
and grief is very real.
But settling in a place for toolong is what has to change.
And so, I think, with people, ifyou don't know yourself, if you
don't have a kind of identityor self-narrative, or even

(01:26:21):
sometimes it can just start witha simple desire.
What is the desire of yourheart?
And that is so controversial inreligious circles, I think.
But God creates that andsometimes the desire is just,
for me, pulling out of mine wasyou do get sick and tired of
crying, you get sick and tiredof being sad and, like I, made

(01:26:43):
it a point to learn how to laugh.
I don't laugh very well, youknow, because it has not been my
life, but now, by golly, I'mgoing to learn how to laugh and
have fun, and on purpose,because I believe that that's
just as much important as allthe rest of it is.

(01:27:05):
Sorrow can be good and theBible says there's wisdom in the
house of mourning or sorrow.
However that goes, I forget.

Speaker 3 (01:27:13):
Well, there's a time to laugh, there's a time to cry,
right that?
time to cry shouldn't go on foryears and years and years.
It's going to be a season ofgrief and mourning and sorrow.
That's normal.
But the joy comes in themorning.
The Bible says it's not goingto be the morning that you think
it is most of the time, butit's like.

(01:27:33):
One morning you're going torise up and that's what happened
.
I rose up.
I said I'm done with this.
I'm not literally Get yourhands off this home, get your
hands off my head.
You know, all this is mine.
I had to get ratted, turn intoJoy Haney and get ratted with my
faith, and I believe with allmy heart that that's what pulled
me up.
Because, kathy another thing Iwas thinking about it takes, I

(01:28:00):
think it's, 21 days to break ahabit.
Yes, right, you have to changeyour thinking, because you have
a habit of thinking death,thinking negative thinking,
pessimistics, being cynical.
You have to slow it.
That's where counseling comesin.
Right, what helps you?
Jesus helps deliver you and getyou out of there, but now you
have to change your thinking.
Counseling is so important, Imean huge advocate for

(01:28:23):
counseling.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
Yes, and that's where I just did an episode on
spiritual bypassing, because Ithink that's the piece that gets
missed is often we in Pentecostand in any religious circle I
think, just says, okay, once youfind Jesus, all this stuff is
going to go and you must not bepraying enough, you must not be
doing enough if you still feelthis way.

(01:28:51):
But there is a walking outprocess, because all of those
are deep-seated beliefs, Likewhen we really don't believe
that God can or we would be moreable to think that way, and so
we have to really get to ourthoughts.
They're coming from someplaceand they're really coming from

(01:29:13):
what we truly believe and wehave to examine that belief
system.
And sometimes that's got to beseparate from church, because I

(01:29:35):
think that the Bible confirmsscience.
I think that once we get ourfoundation out there in every
denomination that really wrestlewith the.
Well, if I need counseling, doesthat mean that something's
wrong with me or I'm notspiritual enough or Christian

(01:29:55):
enough?
No, that's not what it means.
It means that sometimes we havenot.
Sometimes we always have toknow who we are, because who we
are inside is who God made us tobe.
But it can get very buried andconfused over the years.

Speaker 3 (01:30:14):
Yeah, and counseling helps guide you.
They will ask questions thatyou would never think of.
They have an objective voice.
Now they should become a crutch.
You know when I'm talking Right.
Right, I have a few friends andI talk to my counselor.
Everything's about theircounselor.
I'm like that's not helpfuleither.
Right, right right.
The help is to help guide you,to help steer you, to help you

(01:30:39):
deal with a situation that youcan't talk to your family about
because they're biased.
Right?
No one who's objective, Ibelieve, who's spirit-filled,
who has a walk of Jesus, so theycan be guided by God's spirit
too, right?

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
Yeah, yeah, he's the great counselor.
So yeah, we'll kind of wrap up.
I know you lost your mom.
How many years was that afteryour dad?
Was that five?

Speaker 3 (01:31:04):
It's been about 14 years.
Well, no, no, no, no, no, sorry, 11, 20, 12 years, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:11):
Since she lost your dad.

Speaker 3 (01:31:13):
He died in 2011.
She died in March of 23.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
So it was 12 years in between of 23.
Yeah, so it was 12 years inbetween.
Yeah, yeah, and you're doingokay through that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:27):
Yeah, it's a process.
I'm still.
I'm so much better, but I stillstruggle.
I still have that struggle.
I talk to my mom a lot.
She was kind of my writingmentor.
She helped me with my physicsand I recently I'm getting ready
to release a workbook series.
It's like a Bible study forwomen and I wish she was here to

(01:31:49):
help me with that.
You know, sometimes I'll justhave a crying.
I'll have a day where I justI'm being emotional.
So it's catch and go with mymom.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):
And not that you're ever going to be okay, I didn't
mean it like that, but they'reyour parents, it's never going
to be yeah.
So, steph, where are you todaywith your life, with ministry,
with?

(01:32:22):
I know you go to church inAustin.
Do you ever plan to come backto California?

Speaker 3 (01:32:30):
Not to live permanently, yeah, unless God
has a plan Right as well.
The daughter lives in LA, so wego.
He goes there a lot.
I go with him sometimes, andthen I go to see my family every
few months.
I think the longest I've beengone, since my mom passed away

(01:32:51):
especially, is three months, butI don't think we'll ever live
out there.
His family is all on the coast.
So this is a good middle coast,my mom and I.
So this is a good middle for us.
Yeah, yeah, I keep pushing himto get a little home out there
by the ocean we can rent out.
Airbnb is you know?

(01:33:11):
Yeah, I miss California a lot.
I miss the people, the weather.
I don't care about the weather,that's all I'm going to say.
There's no place likeCalifornia weather and I just
miss them.
I get nostalgic.
So when I go home now sometimesI'll go to those old places,
you know yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:32):
So what are you doing in ministry?
What is your goals?
Where are you going?
I know you had unveiledministries.
You said you and Asbel justreleased a podcast.
What's on the horizon for you?

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):
Well, the podcast is called A Cup of Oil.
We have a it's a lifestyleslash ministry type event that
we do not event, but a profiletype thing that we do, called
the Kappa Real, and we justreally talk about our story.
We're starting and my biggestpassion is, of course, anvil

(01:34:07):
Ministries.
It's a powerful women'smovement and we used to do a lot
of workshops but we haven'tdone it since COVID.
Next year I'm going to probablystart that back up and I'm
doing a lot of workshops, but wehaven't done covid.
Um.
Next year I'm going to probablystart that back up and I'm
doing a lot of writing.
Um.
I released a new devotionallast um last year and then this

(01:34:29):
workbook series which is like abible study series for women.
It will be released um.
We're looking at the start date.
End of december is when this isright, and that's good sometimes
out a little bit, not too muchspeaking.
Is that what you said?

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
yeah, sorry I didn't mean yeah no, you didn't.
There was a delay in the audioand so it cut off.
I couldn't hear what you hadsaid, um okay I, it's weird.

Speaker 3 (01:34:58):
I don't know if you like, I enjoy being at home.
Just, I think, going through alot of loss, um things that I'm
through I I love being home withmy dogs.
I really do.
That's where all the writingcreativity comes out too yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):
Um, I going to ask you something.
Do you see?
I don't know if you have yourpulse on our denominational
structure, but do you see changetaking place there?

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):
You mean you can see?
Oh, I don't know much, I'm notas loud, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
I feel like it's evolving into a lot more love
and less judgment awesome a lotof the people they're loving
yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:35:58):
I think the climate in the world has affected the
church, though as a whole,they're loving.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
I think the climate in theworld has affected the church,
though as a whole I'm talkingabout the church in America and
so there is still some of thathate, divisiveness, not healthy.
They're allowing the world'snarrative to affect them, and so
I think that's something I wishthe church could get away from

(01:36:19):
and realize that we're passingthrough, that we're discovering
love, that we're here to makedisciples of men for a purpose.
So that's the thing I wishcould change in the church world
.
I'm talking across the board,in every denomination where I
see you and I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:36:39):
And what would you say to the prodigal out there
who has not come back home, whojust doesn't know what to do?
What would you say to aprodigal that's out there?

Speaker 3 (01:36:58):
I would say, having been one before, don't write God
off for good and don't do likeI did.
Put God and religion in thesame box, because that will
prolong your healing.
And to, like Kathy said earlier, pray at home, wherever you are
, pray and start talking to Godin your own way and then pick up

(01:37:19):
the Word of God.
If you are, pray and starttalking to God in your own way
and then pick up the Word of God.
If you have to do it on youriPad or an actual Bible, read it
and start charting pages andmarketing it and then eventually
you will start filling the poll.
You may already be fillingGod's legend and polling you.
I would say that's the beststart Now.

(01:37:40):
If you want to go into a church, go for it, do it.
But I know a lot of prodigalsstruggle there, ones I've talked
to and I struggled with it, butthey're our son.
They go run in a church.
Whatever God is calling you todo and pushing you to do, I
would say, do it.
And the one thing I didn'tmention, kathy, that I think is

(01:38:01):
so important, is that thebiggest thing that I held on to
through that is I hadunforgiveness in my heart, and
sometimes unforgiveness iswhat's blocking you from
surrendering your heart to God.
Actually, it is where this yeah, you unforgiveness and from
going back to church.
You have to learn to forgiveand to let go, because that's

(01:38:24):
all.
We're going to put a wedgebetween you and god and you and
the church.
You're in religion,unforgiveness, right right, yeah
, I would.

Speaker 2 (01:38:32):
I I think about unforgiveness a lot because I
think it is a source of diseaseand sickness and demonic
activity, just many things.
And I was just praying aboutthat this morning at ladies
prayer, like Lord, how do webridge that gap for people who

(01:38:54):
feel really justified in theiranger and their hurt, you know,
to get them to a place wherethey're willing to just crack
that door open so that they caneventually forgive?
For me, my forgiveness wassupernatural.
God supernaturally took it fromme, but I had to be willing to

(01:39:17):
give it and I didn't feel it inmy emotions when I was willing
to forgive, but I knew enoughthat it was going to be a
requirement of me.
If I wanted God to forgive me,I had to be willing.
But I feel like when I did, ittook a few months of me praying

(01:39:37):
about it and saying, lord, Iforgive them, lord, I forgive
them before it was gone.
And then, when God really tookit, I got nothing left.
I mean, I got no bad feelings.
I can see them, I can talk tothem, I could even hug their
neck.
I'm okay because I'm okay,because God took that.

(01:39:58):
But I don't know what thatthing is for those that are
really still struggling withunforgiveness.
It's such a hard thing.

Speaker 3 (01:40:06):
It is so hard, kathie , I was thinking just now.
At one time I wanted the manwho abused me I would say I hope
it just goes to hell.
I had so much hate andunforgiveness in me to hell.
I had so much hate andunforgiveness in me.
Once I forgave which was lateron, way later on I began to feel
more compassionate and almostlike, well, I hope God does

(01:40:26):
restore, I want him to go toheaven.
I became more compassionate.

Speaker 2 (01:40:32):
Right Because still a soul.

Speaker 3 (01:40:34):
Still a soul.
I'm not going to wreck him.
I'll never wreck him.
He's a soul I'm not going toreconcile, I'll never reconcile
no.
He's a soul Right.
God created him.
God wants to restore, so thathelped me a lot once I forgave.
It taught me so much about howhuge and necessary forgiveness
is, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:55):
Yeah, okay, steph.
So for anybody that wants toget your books or or find you on
social media, pick up yourdevotions.
Where do they go?

Speaker 3 (01:41:06):
um, well, the biggest um place I'm at a lot is
facebook.
I have a page there and I'm onthere all the time.
I strong lead.
The books are on Amazon and I'mreally bad at self-promoting.
I'm trying to get better at it.
I have a team that's workingwith me now, so we're working on

(01:41:27):
that, but most of my booksexcept Rawls, out of Print right
now is all on Amazon.

Speaker 2 (01:41:34):
Okay, and she does spell her name with an E, so
it's Stephanie with an E, and soif you look for her on Amazon
Stephanie Haney Montez you mighthave a hard time if you're
using an A, so it'sS-T-E-P-H-E-N-I-E and I highly

(01:41:56):
recommend you get them.
If you see Steph, if you'remeeting her for the first time
here, she is always the sameauthentic, real.
I mean you don't always findthat with people, but wherever
you see her, whatever she's on,you're going to get the real
deal.
And if you have known her orjust known of her, hopefully you

(01:42:21):
get a better opportunity to getto know her better.
Today and, steph, I just amthankful that you said yes to
doing this.
It's really great to catch up.
You know, people affect ourlives in ways they may never
understand.
But there's some people in mylife like we were not friends

(01:42:43):
for a long length of time.
I never knew the intricatedetails of your life, but I did
know that you were very kind tome and included me at a time
when I didn't fit in and when Ifelt like a fish out of water,
moving to CLC, brand new in myown conversion back to the Lord

(01:43:07):
and it mattered.
I have such wonderful memoriesof that and I thank you and I've
thought about you so many timesover the years and I'm so
grateful for all that God hasdone in your life and how you're
living it out and preaching theword and walking the path that

(01:43:28):
God has you on.

Speaker 3 (01:43:30):
Thank you.
Yeah, I remember you were newand I reached out to you and I
have such fond memories.
You were always beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:43:41):
I felt so, thank you.
Thank you, I felt so ugly backthen, but we do when we do all
the things you know, and one dayI'll figure out a way to talk
about that subject with people.
But thank you for being hereand I just wish you all the best
and I hope I'll get to see youin person sometime soon maybe

(01:44:05):
one day we can make it happen.

Speaker 3 (01:44:06):
Thank you yeah inviting me.
I know it took a while to getme here.
Just a lot going on but I am soappreciative for what you're
doing, when you're doingsomething powerful, kind of
bringing recognition to theprodigal side of things, because
there are so many prodigals, soI am.

Speaker 2 (01:44:24):
Thank you, great Thank you.
I think we're going to have alast day revival of prodigals
coming home, you know.
So I'm believing for it.
Ok, I love you, steph, and Godbless.
Thank you, bye, bye.

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
We are so glad you Steph, and God bless, thank you.
Bye, bye, we are so glad youjoined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
tax deductible.
Visit our website attheredeemedbacksliderorgorg.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.

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