Drugs, Affairs, Forgiveness TRB #24 Tom Lyman

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Tom Lyman's testimony isn't just another recovery story—it's a raw journey through the paradox of growing up in church while harboring secret addictions that nearly destroyed everything he loved.

From his sheltered beginnings in a tiny church school with just one classmate to the depths of cocaine addiction and infidelity while still attending services every Sunday, Tom's story strips away the façade many maintain in religious environments. "I was that guy on the pew," he reveals, describing how for twelve years he maintained a perfect Christian appearance while spiraling through pornography, substance abuse, and multiple affairs.

The most devastating part? His wife Lana stood by him through countless broken promises until that Thanksgiving night in 2021 when she finally said, "I love the real you. This isn't you, and I'm done." That moment—sitting alone outside while hearing his family laughing inside—became the crucible for authentic transformation.

Listen for more of how God has redeemed the broken pieces.

You can find Tom on  "The JOY HOUR Show"

https://watch.osn.tv/

or email him at:

[e-mail] 

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Kathy has two books out and they can be found on Amazon or Barnes & Noble online:

Redeem California, With God it IS Possible:

God of the Impossible: 30-Prayers for the Redemption and Restoration of California

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider podcast.
I'm your host, Kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and a Redeemed
Backslider.
With me today in the studio isTom Lyman.
He is with me via Zoom fromTexas.
So good morning, Tom.
Welcome to the RedeemedBackslider.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
Good morning Kathy, Excited to be doing this with
you.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
So I was super excited when you reached out
after watching Nick Mahaney'spodcast Brother Mahaney is
actually going to be coming backfor a second one and hopefully
coming for a conference here inMarch of next year but I was
really excited to hear yourstory of, or wanting to hear a

(01:09):
little bit more of, your story,and I was really glad that you
reached out.
So where did you grow up?
Did you just grow up your wholelife in church, or did your
family come in when you were alittle bit older?
What was your early life like?

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Well, I love doing this.
It brings up all kinds of goodand also sometimes not good,
memories.
But I am blessed to have beenbrought into the Apostolic
Church in 1983.
I was five years old.
My mom had been on a journey tofind God and actually she found

(01:47):
him at her house by herself,long before she found any sort
of an apostolic Pentecostalchurch.
She's got an amazing testimonyand I'm so thankful for my mom.
She's still alive.
She just moved actually to Ohiowith my sister, but my dad is
up in heaven.
Seven years ago God took himOhio with my sister, but my dad

(02:07):
is up in heaven.
Seven years ago God took himhome with colon cancer and my
dad was a framer all his life.
So he's up there framingmansions for us.
But my dad was a wonderful man.
So, yes, from five years old in1983, I was raised not only just
in church but in a churchschool on the church property,
in a tiny little trailer.
We had struggled quite a bitfinancially in the early years

(02:31):
and that's how life would haveit.
Sometimes my parents had gonethrough bankruptcy and so very
humble beginnings withsecondhand clothes and powdered
milk from the food bank and allthose memories secondhand
clothes and powdered milk fromthe food bank and all those
memories.
But I have a wonderful brotherand sister and did have just so
many things.
I'm still grateful for Tinychurch school, about 30 or 40

(02:55):
students.
My graduating class was 1995 andit was me and one more person.
So graduating class of two, wow, wow, yeah.
And so it's kind of funny.
A lot of times people are likewhat school did you go to?
Or you know, did you playfootball or this or that?
Or you know what sports wereyou into?
And I'll tell them you know, Ihad to graduate class of two and

(03:16):
they're like what you know?
So it's just my story, you know, and um, but yeah, I, uh, I
started working real hard as anearly teen, every saturday,
every summer, and so in 1995 I Ijumped in 110 into construction
, which I've done for 30 years.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
But yeah, I how did how did growing up in a small
school such as that affect youLike when you look back over
your story?
How did you feel growing up ina small school?
Was it?
Did you want more?
Did you look at other kids andwonder what life was like in

(04:03):
their world, or were you prettycontent because that was all you
knew?

Speaker 3 (04:08):
I would say the latter Definitely content,
because that's all I knew.
I think in my early tomid-teens other people started
making comments about that If wewere in a public school we
would have sports.
I don't know, I never reallygot hung up on that.
Part of it could have been Iwas chubby and didn't feel

(04:28):
athletic anyhow, which is funny,because now people are like do
you play football, man, you'd begreat.
You know, I'm a bigger guy andeverything but that comes from
carrying lumber for 30 years.
But that was my sport and so Imade construction that sport.
But no, I didn't have a lot ofdesire to do that, although a
lot of my peers did, and theystill do.

(04:50):
They still make comments aboutman.
I was so held back.
If only I would have gone topublic school.
But I still go back to myteachers every time I see them
and just tell them thank you somuch.
I mean they were all volunteer.
I mean they would work 50, 60hours a week and maybe get a
couple hundred dollars a month.
These ladies poured into us andit was a great school, great

(05:12):
pastor, great upbringing.
Of course, I was the onlyfamily that lived on the church
property, so I was there sevendays a week.
I mean, it was just we playedoutside basketball on the
concrete and good memories, goodmemories, great schooling, ace
curriculum.
You know where you set your owngoals and you write down what

(05:33):
you're going to do the next dayand you got to check them off.
And so, no, I have nothing butfond memories and didn't have a
pull um my life in that.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
In that sense, that's good Cause that's where a lot
of stuff starts to go sidewaysis in our early upbringing.
So that's really good that youfelt and it probably gave you
such a really good foundation,um, in your belief system, being
raised in a Christian school.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
That really did.
You know my mom and she wasalways one of the teachers.
My dad he never missed church,but other than that he was
working a lot and, like I say,it was low finances for most of
our upbringing.
So there's a lot of good there.
So there's a lot of good there.
I guess the side that Iremember was more so in my

(06:28):
mid-teens struggling with beingrejected by my first crush, or
the first few crushes, and againfeeling Was that in the church?
Yeah, the church school, andthen sometimes we'd, you know,
uh, do different conferences,camps and things with other
schools and other churches, Imean, and um, I don't know, it

(06:50):
just didn't seem like the girlsI was attracted to were
attracted to me and so it hurtand um, I remember, um, falling
into pornography at at a youngage, that being a go-to because
I didn't feel rejected and it'ssuch a trap and I never talked

(07:14):
about it until even just a fewyears ago and we'll talk on that
more.
But yeah, I think, although Ihad a great life upbringing when
I was rejected and whenever Idid feel, you know, chubby or
unathletic or ignorant when itcomes to playing trivia or, you
know, being intelligent, incertain areas I felt like I had

(07:36):
a lot of weaknesses and, and sothat's where I slipped into the
wrong music and then the wrongthings to look at.
And then I started I don't knowabout 15 years old, probably
marijuana, cigarettes and thenalcohol, 16.
And then I moved out at 17 andgraduated and moved out with a
friend of mine into a big houseand that's where it really

(07:58):
started to go good.
In some areas, like work andfinances, went great and made a
lot of money even at a young age.
But I had about a five-yearproblem there, from 17 to 22
years old, with getting intometh, a lot of marijuana, a lot

(08:19):
of alcohol, a lot of girls,things like that, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
How did you, how were you introduced to pornography?
I mean, you were living in sucha sheltered environment.
How were you introduced to that?

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Well, of all things, because I've done a lot of work
and I specifically coach andwork in the area of pornography
and sex addiction now, alongwith alcohol and substance abuse
.
So, because this is what I dofull time and I've spent three
and a half years really diggingin, I started going backwards to
say what was it like?
What was the first few things?
And so I believe it definitelywas my heart that was hurt and

(08:58):
then got hardened and calloused.
And then my curiosity.
It met opportunity.
And it was a simple clothingmagazine that had the lingerie
section and it seemed likewithin six months to a year, a
buddy of mine had a Playboy.

(09:19):
And then I'm like whoa, that'swhat I wanted to see.
And again it was curiositymeets opportunity.
But yeah, my choices still mychoices to say thanks for the
magazine and hide it under mymattress and all that stuff at
11, 12.

(09:39):
I can't really remember theexact year, but yeah, then I
just felt dirty.
I felt like I'm the worst guy.
I'm one of the only guys otherthan my buddy, you know, I
didn't think anybody elsestruggled with those things and
so I just never talked about itand nobody ever knew for a long,
long time.
And then, of course, I movedout you.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Where do you fall in the sibling section?
Middle like are you the oldestmiddle?
Yeah, okay yeah so you had ayounger brother younger, younger
sister, older brother and younever talked to your brother
about it?
You never did.
You.
Did your mom and dad evernotice you were struggling, do
you think?

Speaker 3 (10:20):
I know that they picked up that I was struggling
with anger.
Of course I was angry at myselffor living this secret, and so
it would come out in all kindsof ways, and they couldn't
understand why I was so angry.
The smallest thing would set meoff.
But I think sometimes parentsare blind to thinking my kid's

(10:46):
looking at porn, my kid'ssmoking weed, my kid's drinking
Right.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Especially in a church culture.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Right, right.
And I became very creative atwhen and how I would look at
things, when and how I wouldsmoke things.
I'm shocked that it didn't comeout earlier, but I think a lot
of times moms, dads, they don'twant to see, they don't want to
think my kids into any of thosethings, and so yeah Well, I

(11:17):
think you know there there issuch a naivety, especially in
our church culture, I think.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
hopefully not so much now, but back in the other
years it was so sheltered so itreally wasn't something talked
about from the pulpit.
I don't think particularlypornography.
Do you feel like that that'sgetting broadcasted more these
days in churches, or do you feellike it's still not quite
talked about so much?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Interesting.
You ask that.
Again, this is the area my wifeand I both work in very openly.
We just went to a conferencewith 36,000 people in Indiana,
wonderful conference last week,and my wife and I stood at the
booth that we do at GeneralConference and NAYC and it's the

(12:09):
porn booth, it's ApostolicMoral Purity.
And so I stood there, you know,three nights in a row, a couple
times during the day, and hadsome great conversations with
people, also got some funnylooks from people.
It's still kind of that taboothing for a lot of people.
You know, I've been at so manytables, so many meetings where
we talk about cigarettes andalcohol and people like, yeah,

(12:31):
god delivered me and yeah,that's, you know this and that.
But you start talking aboutporn and it just gets real quiet
and that's why my wife and Ifeel so challenged to step it up
even more and say, hey, we'llbe, we'll be that couple that
talks openly about it, becauseit's not being talked about, and
answer your question it's notbeing talked about nearly enough
at all.

(12:51):
I mean, it's rampant.
And because of these cellphones, that opportunity
remember, curiosity is alwaysthere.
At a young age it's that theenemy has created, from
magazines to television and nowit's on your phone and people

(13:11):
are giving their five-year-oldand six-year-olds full access to
the internet, and so I meet alot of people where it started,
when they were five, six yearsold, and it breaks my heart.
But this is the enemy, this isthe stronghold, this is the
thing that people are nottalking about nearly enough at
all, and I don't agree with it.
I think that the freedom comesfrom talking about it.
There could be as far as theapostolic moral purity we do.

(13:34):
There could be a hundred moregroups like that and it wouldn't
scratch the surface.
You're getting me going on mysoapbox here, but this is my
opinion is that a lot of peopleare saying and I meet with men
all the time and at first thethought is I'm not looking at
porn because I'm not clicking ona porn site until they really

(13:54):
dive deep and realize you don'tneed to anymore.
It's on Instagram, tiktok, youknow all these other social
Facebook.
It's on all these platforms andit's just rampant how much that
it is out there and they're notaddressing the reality that it
is still a form of that reality,that it is still a form of that

(14:20):
, and I'm so blunt with it,because it is what led me to the
full-blown years and years ofadultery, and unfaithfulness to
my wife is the root ofpornography.
That was never conquered.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Right, and I, you know my 84-year-old dad.
Both my parents moved in withme a couple of years ago.
My dad, who's been a Christianmy whole entire life, gets the
most random things on his phoneand it drives me crazy because
people who are not even lookingfor it, asking for it, they're

(14:50):
just inundated with it.
My son has completely got off X, something he was on for years
and years just because he gotoff because of the pornography,
which I'm super proud of.
But more and more it is such aninvasive thing.
And growing up in church, Iremember the days when they

(15:13):
would preach against televisionand I'm like, you know, as a kid
, I'm like what's the matterwith?
You know Charlie's Angels, youknow the show that was popular
when I was a kid.
But now, as an adult, and wesee what's coming across the
screens, there is such a need tosort of protect that and guard
that what is coming across ourscreens, not just TV but our

(15:39):
phones and I.
So I want to ask a questionabout your booth.
I want to be delicate about itCause I'm like you, I want to
talk about the hard things andlet's just be real about it, but
the apostolic moral purityseems like a very contrasting

(16:03):
name for what you're trying toaddress and I understand the
reason for it, but can you talkabout that?
A little bit Like when peoplefirst walk up to your booth, are
they able to understand what itis you're talking about?
Because I think just at firstmention it would be like okay,

(16:27):
I'm going to stay pure until I'mmarried, from a Christian,
godly perspective, which, ofcourse, is what we want to do.
But do you think it's actuallyaddressing hey, you're a kid,
you're a teenager, we knowyou're living in this world.
That's just getting worse bythe day.
If you struggle with porn, cometalk to us and come talk to us.

(16:55):
Is there any kind of messagearound what the booth is
actually for in terms ofmarketing or imaging?
You know what I'm trying to ask.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
I believe I do.
So I sit in a lot of differentrooms, a lot of different
12-step programs from NAmeetings, aa meetings, celebrate
, recovery, genesis Process,navigate there's so many good
programs out there.
You know, when I sit in an AAmeeting, you know I started
doing those when I was in rehabthree and a half years ago.

(17:26):
It's specifically for alcohol.
That's why, years later, na wasstarted and it's for narcotics
and alcohol.
So I think, with the ApostolicMoral Purity it's specifically
the mission is to helpapostolics that are struggling.
Now, sooner than later, I'll bealso hosting and starting

(17:55):
another group that's open to anyChristian, regardless of their
depth of understanding of any ofit, just people that are
faith-based Christian menstriving to be better husbands,
fathers and leaders, and sothat'll be a different sort of a
room where we're not there totalk about certain things.
There could be, like I say, ahundred of these with a hundred
different names, but deep down Ithink we're working for the
same goal.

(18:15):
It's just who is in each roomso we don't get sidetracked.
I started a group recently umFacebook group.
There's about 4,000 membersalready and it's just called
Christian addiction recoverysupport.
Well, I get to approve ordecline what people want to post
, and so if they start postinganything political or even
things about prophecy or, intime, this or that, I just

(18:37):
decline that because that's notwhat that room is for.
I believe some of them aregreat posts, but they're just
not applicable to that room, andso I think that's where
Apostolic Moral Purity's missionis.
I didn't start that.
Actually, dr Daniel Surstadstarted that years ago and
that's been.
His goal is to specificallyreach apostolics.
On my end, I also will bestarting one soon that is, to

(18:58):
reach any Christian men thatwant to get in the room and talk
.
Does that kind of answer?

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, I think I guess I'm just saying that it seems
like a given that if you're aChristian you would try to
uphold moral purity, even thoughmany do not.
So it you know, I don't knowhow inviting.
I'm not actually being criticalat all, I'm just.
I was just curious what kind ofresponse you have, because I

(19:28):
think anybody walking by theywould know.
Yeah, that's part of theprogram if I'm going to be a
Christian.
You would think the reality isthey're struggling and people
are having sex and havingaffairs and dealing with
pornography.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
And until they shine a light on it and they get an
accountability partner, thatthey can finally get to the
point at some point in theirlife where they say here's my
phone.
I tell you, the most freeingday of my life was a few years
ago, whenever I told my wholefamily my password and my
phone's on the counter.
And then one day I'm drivingdown the road and my daughter's

(20:08):
in the back Dad, can I use yourphone real quick to look
something up, cause they don'thave access to any, any internet
or anything.
And I handed the phone back andI didn't hesitate.
I had no fear of anything shewould find on the social medias,
on the internet, on in myphotos and for years, having
lived a double life, believe me,that is one of the most freeing
things that I have found.
So I asked men, do you want toget to the point where you

(20:37):
easily, if asked, could handyour phone to your daughter,
your wife, your pastor, a friend?
If you don't want that, thenyou're not serious and you're
toying around with an enemythat's seeking.
He's, he's not going to quitand he's going to seek and kill
and destroy.
So it's, it's warfare andspiritual warfare.
Right and um right, you know alot of men.
I'm too much for him right now.
I love them, I pray for them,but I also tell them when you're

(21:00):
ready to man up.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
There's a roadmap that works Good.
That's great Because they do.
It does have to be a choice.
You have to want it, Just likeliving for God.
You can't come to church justbecause you're supposed to go to
church.
You've got to come and have areal relationship with the Lord.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
Well, and I go back to something as simple as
Christian.
To be a Christian meansChrist-like.
What did Christ do?
He came humbly, he loved, heserved, he forgave.
He didn't watch a bunch of TVwith a whole bunch of
half-dressed people, he didn'tlisten to music.

(21:42):
He went out and ministered topeople.
And so, if you really break itdown to simplicity, what does
the definition Christian reallymean?
Does it mean I go to church, Ipay my tithes and offering?
Does it mean I clap and I singand I run and I jump?
Does it mean I can preach, Ican teach?
Does it mean any of that?
Or does it really mean that I'mliving a lifestyle that Jesus
showed us when he was here?
And I got a long ways to go?

(22:02):
Still, I'm not saying I'vearrived, but we really got to
dial in the details of if Ican't report to another brother
what I'm eating every day, thenI'm going to keep eating ice
cream and French fries until myback pain kicks in again.
And so same thing in ourphysical as our spiritual, but
even more our spiritual is untilI can say hey, bro, here's my

(22:24):
phone Password 0000.
Go ahead, use it.
That is the moment when we knowwe've truly got to the point of
saying, huh, this is what WWJDmeans.
You know what would Jesus?

Speaker 2 (22:36):
do Right right.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
You know, and I tell guys all the time, if you can't
control the smartphone, if youjust can't, then take a time of
your life, whether it's a yearor whatever, and get a flip
phone, because it would bebetter to make it with a flip
phone than to not make it.
Because you had to have asmartphone, because you know you
had to have it for work, youhad to have it for all this.
And I call nonsense.

(22:58):
And if it's going to destroyyour relationships, if it's
going to destroy your soul, ifit's going to take all your
purpose away and just just bringall the shame that it does,
then take extreme measuresbefore the enemy takes extreme
measures and you're in prison oryou lose your life or you lose
your marriage, because that'sthe end game, that's the end

(23:19):
goal of the enemy.
And I know from personalexperience, you know Right.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, transparency is so important, but people have
to really be okay withthemselves to be okay with
others, and that is such aprocess, as I'm sure you will
know.
So walk me through.
So you started with pornography.
You moved out when you were 17.
What caused you?

(23:48):
I would guess, as you said, itwas just rejection, wanting more
of what you didn't have,wanting something you didn't
have.
So how did you fall intomarijuana and drugs and did you
stop going to church after youbegan to do those things and
move out?

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Absolutely.
I think the marijuana andeverything really started, yes,
out of curiosity, but really outof numbing the noise in my mind
, in my head, in my conscience,in my heart.
You know I knew.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
So were you having intrusive thoughts?
Or was it just conviction?
Or was it condemnation?
What was the noise?

Speaker 3 (24:27):
It was just felt dirty.
You know I'm masturbating andlooking at pornography and
nobody knows.
And yet I'm at church the nextday lifting up hands, worshiping
my Lord, going oh, these twodon't go together, tom, you've
got to stop, you've got to breakthis habit.
And obviously, what I'velearned in life twice now I've

(24:50):
really fallen away from God twomajor times, which I'll touch on
, but I always found that it waseither confess or do it again.
And so I continued to.
That's the truth.
Yeah, I continued to think I'mgoing to confess to my parents
or somebody that I could trustand I wouldn't, for fear of
they're not going to love mebecause I'm so dirty, I'm

(25:10):
horrible.
And so I went through this foryears, moved out when I was 17,
right away, had a live inrelationship for five years with
a girl there which then Ithought, well, I won't need
pornography, right.
Well, that wasn't true.
I continued both.
So, at 22 years old, I rememberwriting down all the things I

(25:33):
needed to do in my life and juststressed and pressure and all
that.
And all of a sudden the penjumped up to the top of the
paper.
It seemed my hand did and Iwrote I need God in my life,
just really big, bold letters.
I was just crying.
I called my dad and mom.
I'm like can I move home?
And they're like absolutely,you ain't got a small spot in
the garage, move home.

(25:54):
And they're like absolutely,you ain't got a small spot in
the garage.
You'll have to build out acouple of walls and you can put
a heater in there and stay inthe garage.
But we'd like you to go back tochurch because I hadn't gone in
like five years.
And I said, well, that's thebiggest reason I want to.
I need some change to shake upmy life, to get out of these
habits and these ruts.
I came back to God when I was22, still smoking a couple of
packs of cigarettes a day, stilldealing with the other things,

(26:14):
and it took a few months or soof really surrender from
different things.
Some fell off easy and Goddelivered me instantly.
Some are very difficultCigarettes is probably the
hardest and so I felt like at 22, um, 23, everything was taken
away from me and those I justfelt so free and just victorious
Backing up.

(26:35):
So I don't forget the otherreason, besides a hard heart,
that I got into these things waslack of purpose, and I want to
emphasize that to anybody thatwatches this.
When a man lacks purpose, heseeks to and he will fill his
day with pleasure and comfort.
And there is so many thousandsof options everywhere around us

(26:56):
to find pleasure and to findcomfort.
So if you're filling your daywith that, like I did for many
years, it's because lack ofpurpose.
Now that I've got purpose, Iknow who I am, I know why I'm
here.
Those things are not atemptation and so I might touch
on that later again.
But lack of purpose had a hardheart, got into those things.
God delivered me when I was 22and I was on fire for God, you

(27:21):
know, for a couple of yearsthere it was just me living in a
trailer at my parents' property.
I'm pretty proud of that fifthwheel trailer I bought for
$8,000.
And I was working a lot again,framing construction houses,
apartments.
And then one of the otherhighlights in my life besides

(27:42):
God is I told God in January 1st, wrote down my New Year's
resolutions, that if I took atrip at all vacation that year,
it would be to go to a churchconference.
A couple months later two of mybuddies are like hey, you ever
heard of?
Because of the Times.
So we went down to that and hada couple more days to go by and

(28:02):
see my sister in Texas at aconference her and her husband
were hosting.
And I was at the conferencejust feeling a huge burden for
souls.
My purpose was clarifiedbecause of the times that I was
called to be a youth leader.
I was called to impact others.
I had a huge burden forprodigals.
I remember being at the altarjust having names of people just

(28:25):
float through my head, just aburden like crying out for them.
And then altar calls, gettingover there and looked up and I
catch eyes with this pianoplayer and I'm like whoa, that's
awesome.
Like she's way out of my league, but that was cool, it kind of
caught eyes, you know.
And so a couple of nights laterI finally got the courage, ran

(28:48):
out to the parking lot.
I saw her about to get back onthe bus to go back to Bible
college and said hi, my name'sTom, if I don't meet you I'll
kick myself the rest of my life.
And we talked for five minutes.
We got dated for five months,got engaged and got married a
year later.
So brief introduction there tomy wife Lana.

(29:09):
She is a woman of God.
She's from Mississippioriginally, and so 2003,.
We got married.
And what a special time in mylife.
I have audio recordings, I havejournals of all my thoughts
with not just her and I'srelationship, but with me and
God.
Me and God were at a good spot.

(29:30):
There was intimacy there.
I just thought this is it.
Like I have met the woman of mydreams.
I've been called to be a youthpastor, and a couple months
after we get married, I getasked to be the youth pastor.
I didn't ask, I didn't bring itup, but I got asked to.
And so, through all this, kathy,what I'm also getting to again

(29:50):
is in my mind.
I also thought I'm never goingto fall again.
I'm never going to strugglewith cigarettes, alcohol, drugs
or pornography, and so she hasalways been a music director.
I went to Bible college forthree years for that, and so
she's jumping right into music.

(30:11):
I'm jumping right in with heron youth pastoring and it's work
and ministry, and work andministry, and it's going great.
I can't remember exactly when,but I wasn't long into our
marriage that I open up and Ifind a way to access it on my

(30:31):
laptop and I'm back into thishabit, addiction, and this time
I know how important it isdefinitely not to let anybody
know, because it would break mywife's heart and again, she's
just a wonderful lady.
There's never a time I want herto know, however, I think just

(30:53):
a year, year and a half into ourmarriage.
Um, the laptop doesn't work,and so we took it in to get it
fixed, and she finds out thatthat's why it doesn't work is
because I'd been looking atwebsites and I break my wife's
heart.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, did she know about your history?

Speaker 3 (31:12):
She knew that I had done drugs, absolutely.
She knew that I had lived witha girl for five years.
Yeah, we had poured out, I'dpoured out, everything except
the depth or the details of thepornography.
Looking back on it, I don'tthink I really got into that,
probably protecting thispossibility that I would want to

(31:36):
dabble with it.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
I'll come back to your wife in a minute.
What was the source of angerthat you had as a kid?

Speaker 3 (31:48):
That I was not living the life that I knew I should,
which I do a lot on angermanagement now, and I'm sure
people can speak on this betterthan I can.
But, in brief, my values arehere, my behaviors are here.
I value honesty, I valueloyalty, but I'm not being
honest with everybody and noteven being honest with myself.

(32:11):
Well, that line is slanted andthat's my attitude, right?
So when I value honesty and I'mhonest and I'm good, attitude's
chill.
You know I don't have road rage, I'm good, no big deal.
I don't lash out at peoplebecause my behaviors match my
values.
But for a lot of times, most ofmy life, it was slanted.
I was not living up to what Iwas holding others accountable

(32:35):
for and saying you have to behonest with me.
But I wasn't being honest withothers and so I wasn't being
honest with myself by admittingthat I had a struggle I couldn't
beat.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
So I was still trying to understand the anger.
I would think that that wouldcreate condemnation.
So do you think that the angerwas just I'm trying to think of
the right word, Because I wouldthink that you would have a lot

(33:10):
of condemnation by living adouble life, by living something
that was not authentic to you.
But the anger was manifested toothers outside of you.
Or do you think it was towardsyourself?
Were you angry at yourself orangry at others?
How did that express itself?

Speaker 3 (33:29):
So what I've found is when I'm angry at myself and
don't want to admit it.
That's a big part of why I'mangry at others.
So let's just talk fitnessagain.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
Almost like a bullying tactic kind of I don't
want you to see, I'm going topush you away.
Bullies act like that quite abit Right.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
So when I've been 300 pounds and none of my clothes
fit and my back hurts all thetime, I have a couple choices.
I can really man up and say,tom, you're eating ice cream,
french fries, potato chips andpizza, and this is the cause.
Or I can say, well, it'sbecause I have to work so much
and I have to, my life is sobusy and my wife doesn't pack me

(34:07):
a lunch, right?
I can point out.
Or I can own up and say and sayI chose to put that in my mouth
.
I chose to look at that screenthrough my eyes and see
pornography.
I chose the music.
So until we actually sayeverything is about choices, the
average man makes 35,000choices a day.

(34:27):
So if all 35,000 of thosechoices honor God and honor my
values, I'm solid, I sleep likea baby.
But if I don't, then I lay myhead down at night, going you
double-minded man, what are youdoing?
You say one thing, you liveanother.
Because your flesh is strongand it was comfort food or it
was comfort.
You wanted pleasure.

(34:48):
Because I wasn't locked intoknowing that this life is so
temporary.
I'm made from dirt, I'm goingto dirt, but I'm chosen.
I'm chosen to be a soul winner,disciple maker.
I'm chosen to be God's handsand his feet.
I have a calling on my life tominister and to reach somebody
every single day, and when I'mlocked into that I eat better, I

(35:11):
listen to the right things, Ieat the right things.
But so much of that comes intothat internal anger, and I find
it to be typically with menphysical, financial.
You know we don't have anymoney in our bank account.
Well, have you ever sat downand kept all your receipts for a
couple months and looked atwhere you spend your money?
Is it really your employer'sfault you don't make enough

(35:32):
money?
Or do you have a spendingproblem Because the lust of the
flesh, the lust of the eye, thepride of life has allowed you to
choose to spend money on somany things you really don't
need.
And now you're angry ateverybody else.
Oh, too much taxes.
Well, yeah, that's part of it,but that's not the source.
The source is you can't budgetyour time, you can't budget your

(35:54):
finances, and you sure don'twant people to look at your
phone, because you know whatyou're really buying, you know
what you're really looking at.
And so it comes down to timeand finances and what we do for
those 35,000 choices each andevery day.
We have that saying, of course,in rehab centers and AA.
And all that one day at a time.
That was too much for Tom.

(36:15):
I had to break it down to oneminute at a time, one choice at
a time.
Right now, I choose to do apodcast so I can reach others
and hopefully bless andencourage them and normalize
conversations about hard tobring up topics.
And then I'm going to choose torun upstairs and invest my time
in the work that I need to topay the bills.
And I'm going to go to runupstairs and invest my time in

(36:35):
the work that I need to to paythe bills, and I'm going to go
straight home.
And so, when all those choicesadd up to being something, I can
look in the mirror at night andsay, tom, I'm proud of you, do
it again tomorrow.
And then that day where I go man, tom, you fell off.
Man, you haven't been to thegym in a month and you're eating
again horribly.
Or, tom, you started listeningto music that was on the edge.
Or, tom, you started slowingdown when you were looking at

(37:01):
that page, that reel.
We know ourselves when wereally look in the mirror and
channel in and say how did I dotoday?
We all know how we did, and ifwe're proud of it, then we're
proud of it.
If we're not, then we're not.
But the only way that I couldever get myself off of that was
to run so fast, work so much, goso fast in everything I did and
then to put alcohol and drugsin my body to numb the noise.

(37:23):
So mine, I don't think it wasas much condemnation as just
internal anger and shame.
Shame, yeah, shame.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Shame.
Yeah, you know they say thatsin meets sin is an illegitimate
.
How do I get this right?
Sin meets a legitimate need inan illegitimate way, and so I
don't think people at least ifyou grow up in church, I don't

(37:53):
know that everyone just sets outto sin.
I just am going to set out tolook at porn or set out to go
get drunk.
Usually there is anundergirding need, like for you.
It was probably to be wanted tofeel loved to be seen.
You know, and it's easy, onceyou get through that and you can

(38:18):
face yourself and where yourpain is, to then make the better
choices.
But a lot of times people don'tknow how to even start making a
good choice because there's somuch brokenness there and they
really are in deep need, know,deep longing in the soul.
Where do you think, where doyou think the enemy shows up?

(38:40):
Besides temptation in kind ofum, preventing people from
getting into the work, like,like with you, what part of all
of this was spiritual warfare?
Um, in your continuing to falland then trying to come out of

(39:00):
it to where you're eventually attoday.
Because otherwise, if, if itwas just easy or we could just
change our choices, everyonewould be doing that Right.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Maybe Well and sin, it's fun at first, right?
I mean I'll go back and thinkof some times where I'd be out
with the guys.
We'd go camping and we'd have abunch of alcohol and man, we'd
laugh and we wouldn't thinkabout bills or work and we'd be
out there for a couple days andit was just fun guy time.
And it's always fun in thebeginning for most people and

(39:36):
then it gets really, really uglyin the end because that's his
goal is to seek and try anddestroy us.
So it's, it's both.
I mean, it's life, it's flesh.
There's a lot of things thatoffer that feeling of comfort.
But again, every time I'veslipped away, it's been also
because I haven't had a heavenly, eternal purpose on my mind.

(39:56):
It's been a calling from ayoung age.
I remember a minister camethrough.
He gave these white stickerswith red writing and said put it
on your mirror.
His name was Denver Stanford.
I think he's passed on now, butI'll never forget that sticker.
He just said I am a soul winner.
At the end of the day, likePaul talks about, I'm a servant

(40:21):
of Jesus.
I'm a servant, I serve others.
That's what I'm here for Love,serve, forgive, stay humble.
The rest of it's just whatever.
You got a good job, you makegreat money, there's nothing
wrong with that, as long as youdon't detour and start to think
about oh, this is so important.
This life on earth is what it'sall about, you know, and that's
what the world programs us todo.
Even in finances, as a providerfor my family, there's a

(40:42):
brainwashing that happens like401K what are you going to do?
And you got to have this andyou need this.
And it's like do I really?
Because the disciples?
They didn't have any of that,they just followed God.
And that's like next levelChristianity.
And when they say, all right,I've got sandals, or maybe I
don't even have sandals, I'mfollowing God, let's go.

(41:03):
And then we look at the richyoung ruler which he was asked
one thing to do and he couldn'tdo it.
And so I think it's thisstruggle of like are we trying
to build life and heaven here onearth?
Because there is a lot ofthings that feel like heaven and
have fun for a season, but whathappens is we start to isolate
ourselves mentally, emotionally,spiritually and then physically

(41:23):
, to the point where skippingahead.
Just to finish through thestory here I'm married, I'm
youth leader.
I start looking at porn again.
I feel hypocritical.
I can married.
I'm youth leader.
I start looking at porn again.
I feel hypocritical.
I can't do both.
I quit the youth leader roleunder the guise or the excuse
that I need more time at my jobto build my career.
Our first kid was on the way,so I felt overloaded.

(41:46):
There was some truth to that,but ultimately I couldn't quit
this dirty, dark habit and Icouldn't keep looking at this
stuff Saturday night and thenteaching the youth group on
Sunday, because it was justtearing me up.
So nobody told me to, nobodyfound out, nobody made me quit,
but I chose to.
And so a few years later, afterquitting the youth leader
service, work, ministry,volunteer opportunities, I

(42:08):
became very internal in whatdoes Tom want?
I bought cars and made a lot ofmoney and all this stuff, but
then I got a Mike's Heartlemonade at the gas station one
day, thinking, ah, it's not beer, it's not alcohol, let's see
what this is like.
I think I was about 33, 34years old.
And then it's IPA, and thenit's whiskey, and then it's not

(42:29):
just porn, it's adultery, and Iget into a relationship with a
lady, and then I know it's over.
My wife finds out on this, it'sover Her, my three kids, it's
done.
It's over Tom.
You've done the ultimate and ifanybody ever finds out, you're
done.
And so then the torment is justdaily.

(42:50):
I can't sleep without eating adozen melatonin.
I mean, it's just bad.
I'm drinking 36 or 37 now.
Multiple other affairs.
I start steroids.
I start working out a lot.
Goal is to bench 400 when I hit40 years old, midlife crisis.

(43:12):
All the way.
Finances are great, work'sgoing great and I am drugging
and drinking every day, stillgoing to work, still going to
church this whole time.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
And does your wife know you're drinking?
Does your wife know you'redrugging?

Speaker 3 (43:28):
The first couple of years she didn't know.
I mean, I'd have like a pinacolada on a vacation.
She's like, why are you doingthat?
But she didn't know.
I mean, I'd have like a pinacolada on a vacation.
She's like, why are you doingthat?
But she didn't know the depth.
She never knew the depththroughout the first three, four
or five years.
And she's better with timelines, which, by the way, she's just
about done with her book.
She's a full-time counselor now.
She speaks openly, she's beenon our podcast, so she's real

(43:50):
good with the dates and thedetails.
I'm kind of broad stroke, but Ihit it, for I'm just in a
snapshot there of one Mike'sheart lemonade all the way
through multiple affairs.
Um, cocaine comes into thepicture when I'm 38, 39 years

(44:11):
old, and so I'm a what I callkind of a microdose.
During the day you know smallquantities.
So wake up in the morning, shota whiskey, bump, a cocaine
every hour and a half or two allday long, and then at night
it's it's more quantities, and ahalf or two all day long, and
then at night it's morequantities, and weekends it's
definitely a lot.
So she saw the worst of me.
A lot of people still didn'tknow.
They just thought, well, tom'shad a bunch of Red Bull or Tom's

(44:33):
had a lot of coffee.
And I mean, I'm even sober, I'ma high speed guy, you know,
framer, construction guy,demolition.
So anyhow, I hid it from a lotof people, manipulated it.
I'm working late, I got a sidejob, I could tell people
whatever, and they for the mostpart, would believe me.
My dad passed when I was 39, 40years old, and so then I also

(44:54):
had that excuse that I'mgrieving and so leave me alone,
I need time, and so I'm at thecemetery and drinking and
drugging, I'm out and about.
So then another affair forabout a year and a half happens,
when I was, I think, 40-ish,and she doesn't know about any
of those.
She keeps asking me and I keepsaying no.
And I think it was I wasprobably 41, I think is.

(45:24):
When I told her everything and Ithought for sure she was going
to leave, we immediately.
Her first answer was when Itold her was call Pastor, and
I'm so thankful she did, eventhough at the moment I was like
no way.
But we went straight to theirhouse and I told them what was

(45:47):
going on for a couple hours, um,and then they immediately put
us in touch with the counselor,which, if I got into all the
details, we'd be here a couplehours, but it was.
It was not easy.
It was not good.
Um, there was lots of moments Ithought there's no way she's
staying.
There's no way she's going tostay now that she knows these

(46:08):
things about me, and wecontinued to go through that.
I went to rehab for 30 days andshe was hopeful that the real
Tom was going to come back intothe picture, the Tom she met.
I remember when she met me,none of that was going on and I

(46:29):
came back and relapsed again andthe turning point in my life
was Thanksgiving of 2021.
Got home, started walkingtowards the house, heard a lot
of laughter inside, there wasfamily over there playing games

(46:50):
Thanksgiving afternoon evening,and so I sat in the backyard at
first, thinking I'll sober up ina couple hour or an hour or so
and I'll go in, but then I justkept doing more drugs and
drinking while I sat there inthe dark outside, kind of under
this tree, hearing them thewhole time and, uh, I remember
the spiritual warfare at thatmoment was was extremely loud,

(47:13):
like I felt like I was going todie that week somehow, drunk
driving, overdose, my own choice.
I just I didn't want.
I just I didn't see any hope.
Um, and I knew if she found outagain the depth of it, she's not
going to stay this time.
You know, the year or two priorwe'd made it through it all and
I did the rehab and thought forsure, but there's a point where

(47:36):
she's going to leave and if sheleaves I really don't want to
live.
So that happens.
I'm up for two or three nightsin a row, just tormented, and
I'll never forget the moment.
I'm outside, she walks up to meright by the garage door and
she says we need to talk.
And this is 20 years into ourmarriage, or 19 years into our

(48:03):
marriage.
And she says, tom, I tried, butwe're leaving and I wish it
wasn't this way.
I love the real you.
This isn't you, and I'm doneand I'm done.
And for the first time in 19years of marriage, I knew like

(48:28):
it's over, she's not joking,she's not messing around, and so
, uh, basically, she wouldn'tlet me in the house, she
wouldn't let me see my kids, and, um, I went over my mom's house
and just wept.
I went over to my mom's houseand just wept, stayed there for
like a week, just empty,miserable.
It's Christmas season.
My kids are playing theirinstruments at the Christmas

(48:50):
church event.
I'm not allowed to go.
And so I go and check myself inagain to an outpatient program.
I had to pay out of pocket andthat was a big dollar amount and
I'm in rehab, thinking nomatter what.
She's still not going to stay,you know, but for the first time

(49:13):
in my life I'm doing it for me.
The first rehab I did it forher and the rest of the family
that told me I had to.
But this last time, 12-12-21 ismy sober date and I started
doing it for Tom and I starteddigging deep.
I started writing notes.
I started going to everything Icould, from AA to Celebrate
Recovery to counseling, to allof this was so that I would get

(49:45):
to the point where God healedthat hurt heart that I had
throughout my life, to the pointwhere I really met God.
I've known of God all my lifebut you see, all those years I
never made it personal.
He was never God my father, hewas never God my father, he was
just God the father.

(50:05):
He wasn't God my comforter, hewas the comforter.
And so through all this rehaband all these classes, I just
continued to go.
What's this all about?
What's going on?
And I've got stacks of notesand hundreds of books now, but I
have finally found my purposeand that's what's really given

(50:29):
me the victory.
God's given me some revelationsthroughout the journey here on
the broken pieces.
You know, all those choices Imade caused a lot of broken
pieces, but now that I'veallowed him to truly have the
only thing he ever wanted myheart right.
We've all seen that, that memeprobably, where god's standing
there and the other figure,stick figure, is holding the

(50:52):
heart, saying it's all I have.
And I was so broken that Iremember times just sitting
there in the bushes, justsitting there outside, just just
weeping, and I'd picture thiswas before I got clean.
But I'd picture the Bible, abottle of whiskey and a gun and
think which one am I going tograb?
Which one am I going to grab?
And I know the one that's goingto help, I know the one that's

(51:13):
going to fix it, but for 12years of my life I grabbed the
bottle.
Thank God I didn't grab the gun, but there was a lot of
internal anger because of thosechoices.
I had the American dream.
You know, owned a lot of things, a lot of stuff.
Business was great, but I wasmiserable and empty at the same
time.
And so that's bringing us up tospeed here.

(51:35):
Almost getting close to fouryears, my wife's now, like I
said, a counselor.
We do full-time ministry forsex addiction, pornography.
We're about to launch our firstmarriage intensive.
I moved across the country toget full-time into doing this
and reaching others and sharingthings about what I found in the

(51:57):
Word of God.
As you know, we all talk aboutit a lot Revelation 12, 11,.
How they overcome, how do theyovercome?
By the blood of the lamb, theword of their testimony, and
they love, not their life untothe death.
For me, that means God died.
For me, I'm supposed to sharemy story.
I'm not supposed to care aboutthis temporary life more than I
do the eternal life, and so Itry and reach people by being

(52:18):
authentic, sharing enoughdetails that lets them know that
I was that guy on the pew,because I went to church this
last time, that 12-year time.
90% of the times the door wasopen, I was still there with my
family and most people didn'tknow.
So there's a lot of functionaladdicts.
Again, I'm shocked.
Actually, I did better inbusiness back then than I am now

(52:41):
, which is very sad, butfinancially I was doing great
then.
Now I'm struggling.
But ultimately, what do we want?
We want peace, we want joy, wewant purpose.
We want to sleep at night witha clear conscience and each man,
when you look in the mirror,you will always know how you're

(53:01):
really doing if you want to.
But if you want to numb thatand if you want to run from it,
there's lots of options to numbthe calling, the deep down
calling that God says I made youfor more.
There is a huge calling foryour life and most of the people
I'm around now and we do thisoften is we recognize that our
purpose actually came from themost painful, embarrassing mess.

(53:21):
Right, I could sit here andonly talk about cigarettes and
alcohol if I wanted to.
Or I could do like I did andstart deep with music,
pornography, sex addiction,right.
And so each person, I encouragethem to find the healing they
need.
I call that recovery, of course, but there's a program I teach

(53:42):
it's recovery, discovery, actionand purpose.
And in brief, and I'll pass itback to you, there's a period of
time we need to put our ownoxygen mask on and we really
need to do some deep dive ineither rehab, 12-step counseling
, coaching, all of it.
But usually, when we desire thatmore than anything, god will
give us these unique thoughts.

(54:03):
Write that psalm, keep ajournal because you're going to
write a book.
Talk about it.
Tell somebody right, he'll tellus what to do.
The hardest part is acting,because at first, when we start
acting and we do get bold, thereare people in our circle it's
sad, but a lot of times in ourown community that we grew up
with sometimes our own familythat will try to tone us down

(54:23):
and say, hey, don't talk aboutthat.
For sake of reputation orfamily name or other things.
People are sometimes wanting totame down our testimony and I
speak against that in Jesus'name.
I would say ramp it up folks,don't tame it down.
Share your story from therooftops.
Life is short.
You don't like me, that's fine,it's not about me anyhow, but I

(54:47):
do know it's working and I'mable to reach and touch a lot of
men because I care more aboutfinding the Tom I used to be
than what anybody else thinksabout me.
I know what God thinks about meand he tells me to ramp it up.
So with that, it's just yeah,recovery, discovery, action
equals purpose.
You know everybody that starts anonprofit.

(55:07):
They do it because they hadsome pain, whether it was cancer
, leukemia, addiction.
Anybody that's own, founded andruns a nonprofit is because
pain happened in their life andthey decided, instead of
sweeping it under the rug orputting it in the closet, that
that's actually what they'regoing to do full time.
So the calling is great, yeah,the harvest is ripe, the labors

(55:28):
are few.
But what's your story, sir,what's your story, ma'am?
And I would ask you to divedeep and realize that God
actually wants you to, to bevery bold with talk.
It's embarrassing Sometimes.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
You know being that guy standing at that booth and
people are walking by like, hey,but it's worth it.
It's worth it.
A lot of people who grow up inchurch are told that they have a
calling.
I mean, you get called out froman evangelist, from a prophet
that comes through, fromsomebody that tells you hey,

(56:01):
you're meant to be a preacher,hey, you're meant to do this.
But walking into that is a verydifferent thing.
So at what point did those wordsbecome revelatory?
Because I think one thing aboutall of us growing up in church
we know how to Christian.
Well, I know how to clean upthe outside.

(56:22):
I know how to do church.
I know how to clean up theoutside.
I know how to do church.
I know how to go to the altar.
I know how to raise my hands inworship.
I know how to say all the rightthings.
I know what scriptures I needto quote.
I know how to do it.
I know how to play the game.
But at what point does thatauthenticity show up?
To?
Where you know, with purpose,without purpose.

(56:44):
God, I love you because of whatyou've done for me and in me
and through me.
Like, when did that change foryou?

Speaker 3 (56:54):
Whenever I started seeking God's confirmation.
Instead of people you know Idon't get very many and I don't
want any, by the way attaboysfrom humans on this temporary
earth what I want is when I lookin the mirror at night to say,
tom, that guy you met at HomeDepot good job.
That waiter at the restaurantthat you gave your phone number

(57:16):
to and you asked about his lifeand there was a connection there
and you're going to meet again,good job.
So I deal a lot with people inpublic.
I do it mostly when I'm bymyself, like I say, home Depot,
target, restaurants, I mean I'lldo it when my family's with me,
or anybody else too.
But closed mouths don't get fed.

(57:37):
That's the thing, folks, closedmouths don't get fed.
So what's your story and howare you sharing it?
And if you go a week or two orthree and all you do is certain
ministries on a Sunday or aWednesday, but all week long
you're not reaching or talkingto anybody, then are we just
getting our reward here onheaven, like, oh, they're a
great preacher, they're a greatsinger, they're so great at what

(58:00):
they do on a Sunday or aWednesday night?
Again, we need everybody in alldifferent ways, but most
ministry is not done on aWednesday and a Sunday.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Facts.
What did you discover aboutyourself in the last four years,
about your relapse, about the12 years of sitting on the pew?
What did you discover that youdidn't know before?

Speaker 3 (58:29):
That I was searching for validation and identity from
others on this earth Dad, mom,brother, sister, wife, pastor.
I wanted to have those words ofaffirmation, I wanted to hear
them and I wasn't having quiettime outside.

(58:52):
So now what I do a lot is Igrab this, I put it right here
and I bawl my eyes out and Itake a nap and I read it and I
journal all of my confirmation,all of my calling Now the word
of God preached amen.
Let me say we are saved by thepreaching of the word.

(59:15):
That is a large part of it, yes, but the revelations that I
remember more than any are theones that I've had on a park
bench at a cemetery, by myselfwith nobody else around, or
sitting by the river with ajournal and a Bible and nobody

(59:37):
else around.
Those are customized, detailedones that nobody can take away
from me.
I'll tell you the one at thecemetery real quick.
My dad, like I say, lost himseven years ago.
So I've been there a couplehundred times and I was there
about two years ago with myBible, cup of coffee and a
journal and I said, god, I'mready for you to tell me who my

(59:57):
new dad is.
I need a mentor, I need a manin my life and I'm thinking
everybody.
I I need a man in my life andI'm thinking everybody.
I'm thinking Nick Mahaney,which, by the way, I love you,
brother.
He is a huge voice in my life,a huge part of my freedom and
victory.
Dr Daniel Surstad, pastorAndrew Seagraves all these men,
thank you so much.
You've been a huge part of this.
Now I'm naming names, I'llforget a bunch, but anyhow.

(01:00:31):
So I'm racking my brain on whoit's going to be and I'm like
God's going to tell me today whomy new dad is to speak into my
life, um, monthly or weekly, youknow.
And Kathy, after about 45minutes of sincerity, asking God
, I'm like, okay, you're nottelling me who it is.
I'm leaving and I stand up andall I think or hear or feel is
sit back down.
All I think or hear or feel issit back down.
You see that that little boythat's now 43, 44 years old at

(01:00:54):
this time is still in there.
There's still a little heart ofa child, a little tender heart.
Tom and I sit down and that'sthe moment that everything
really changed.
God says I'm right here, tom,and I hear your exact request

(01:01:16):
and I will honor your request,but not until you let me be your
father first.
Not until you let me have anintimate relationship with you,
son.
And I bawled like I've nevercried before.
I just let it out.
I'm like I get it, I get it.
I get it.
A few minutes had 20 minutes goby and I feel great, I get it.
And God says one more thing goto your pastor's house, pray for

(01:01:37):
him and tell him from now on,whatever he asks, the answer is
yes.
So I'd never done it before.
But I call my pastor and saycan I bring you a cup of coffee?
I go to his house we talked fora few.
I have him stand up, lift hishands in the air, I hold them
and I pray and I say God, thankyou for my pastor, and from now
on, if there's anything you everneed, ride to the airport,

(01:01:59):
sweep the floor, anything.
I'm just going to say yes, Iwon't stop, I won't hesitate.
The answer is yes, that was it.
A couple weeks later, we're atchurch and he says hey, before
service, just go up and lead thepre-service prayer.
I'm like Hold on, I don't wantmicrophones.
No, that's not what I do.
But I couldn't say no becauseI'd just done this a couple

(01:02:20):
weeks.
So know, because I'd just donethis a couple weeks, so I did it
.
It's so uncomfortable, themicrophone's shaking in my hand,
and not what I wanted to do.
So life keeps going like thatover the last couple of years.
And then God calls us to movehere to Texas, which I'd never
planned on moving in my life,and I moved down here just eight
months ago.
Well, guess what?

(01:02:40):
The pastor down here isactually the one that fits that
request in a number of areas.
Not only is he a great pastor,but he does construction and all
this.
And so I love my pastors.
Andrew Seagraves has been ahuge part of my journey in
Washington State, love him.
And now I'm down here in Texaswith Pastor Hargrove and a few

(01:03:03):
other awesome ministers herethat the answer is yes.
If I'm asked to do something,yes, I always joke.
If you ask me to sing, theanswer is yes, nobody's going to
like it, but I will get upthere and I will do my best to
sing.
But whatever it is, it'simportant, I think, as a man, to
have a mentor, leader, pastorthat we respect and we honor,

(01:03:27):
and what I mean by that is, ifGod tells me something, I go
chat with my pastor and if it'sconfirmed, cool, there's the
answer.
Or if my pastor tells mesomething, god will always tell
me.
At the same time they will lineup.
And I know this because when Icame to visit Texas for a day
and God called my wife and I andmy family to move here, I told
God.
I said you saved my life, yousaved my marriage.
I've been telling you, whateveryou want, I'll do it.

(01:03:49):
If this means my company goesunder, if this means I lose it
all, but this is your call, thisis the will of God, this is my
Nineveh, this is what you want,then I will do it, but I wrote
my journal.
You will need to tell my pastorand my kids.
I mean, I'll mention the ideathat I feel called, but I'm
never going to move if my pastorin Washington state says

(01:04:11):
anything other than do it.
So we tell our pastor.
He's like whoa, I never knewthat.
And I'm like we didn't either.
And we meet with them a fewweeks later and he says guess
what?
God told me loud and clear.
And so, whatever you need, youhave my blessing, my support.
You're supposed to do this andI'm like no, I wanted to stay in
Washington.
And so we tell our kids, webring them down here, and they
say the same thing.

(01:04:31):
So it's beautiful now that I'mnot the one controlling
everything and as a man I didfor most of my life.
I controlled the narrative Iwant more money, I make more
money, I know how to do it, Iwant to do this, I want to do
that, whatever I do, and I'mholding that steering wheel, and
so now it's beautiful to knowthat I don't have to stress and
think about those things.
But a lot of times it's what Iask men is do you have a pastor?

(01:04:55):
Do you have a mentor?
Do you have somebody that youwould talk to before you make
major decisions in life?
Or you your own voice?
And that's dangerous.
What voices are we listening to?
But I encourage people to askGod those questions who's my
father, who's my mentor, who'smy pastor and really lock in and

(01:05:19):
commit to that, because it'sopened up so many doors.
It's completely turned our lifeupside down.
Don't know how much more timewe have, but I could bring you
up to speed on what we'recurrently doing or tell you a
little bit more.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Yeah, go right ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
I wanted to get into more nitty gritty about your
story, but that's okay, we'llfinish up with this and I don't
know your time restraints onthis.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
I mean, I'm good, I got plenty of time, but yeah, no
, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
You can tell us what you're doing now.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
So with this, you know, the hardest thing too was
telling my kids right, otherthan telling my wife right.
So I told you about that,confessing my faults to God, to
myself and to someone I trust.
And so I did that with my wife.
But you see, shortly after that, god started telling my wife

(01:06:08):
and I that we were supposed tobe very vocal with this story,
and we didn't know what thatmeant.
I didn't know what a podcastreally was at that point.
Or writing a book Me write abook?
No way Me preach, I'm not apreacher.
Those type of thoughts wentthrough my head.
But God just said this is thepoint where you need to sit your

(01:06:28):
three kids down and tell them.
And I tell you, that momentsitting at the table was very I
had a lot of fear.
Will my kids ever look at me thesame if they know I was
unfaithful to their mom?
Will they ever?
Will my daughter ever let mehold their hand again?
Will my sons ever?
What's that going to look likeif they know I was a drug addict

(01:06:50):
, an alcoholic, an adulterer?
I mean, what are they going tothink of their dad?
I'd got to the point where Ididn't really care what anybody
else thought about me besidesGod and my wife and my mom and a
few others.
But I was really concerned onwhat that would mean for my kids
.
But I'll tell you, kathy,whenever God says something and
we do it you know this he doesthe miraculous.

(01:07:19):
And it was hard at first.
There was a few months or sowhere we could definitely see
how it impacted the kids.
But here we are, three yearsdown the road from that moment
we told them and they know whatwe do.
We're on phone calls and doingthis podcast now, the Joy Hour
Show, which is definitelybroadcast everywhere.
We're speaking at marriageconferences and we're about to
host this marriage intensivehere.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Did you say?
You just told them three monthsago, three years, we're about
to host this marriage intensivehere.
So it's true.
Did you say?

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
you just told them three months ago, three years, I
might have said three months,three years, three years, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Three years ago we told them, and there was a few
months that they struggled.
I won't go into all the detailsthere, but in their attitudes,
their behaviors you could tellit was a good six months to a
year of healing there beforethey really could trust their
dad.
But this time they and my wifeand everyone could trust their
dad.
Not because of what I said oh,I'm sorry, I'm going to do

(01:08:14):
better.
No, this time the difference isI just did it and I wrote down
my non-negotiables.
I don't miss church, I don'tmiss Celebrate Recovery.
I don't watch television orscreens or Netflix or anything.
I only listen to Christianmusic.
I do my men's breakfast, I do my12-step program on Zoom

(01:08:35):
meetings one or two times a week, and so I've got about seven to
ten items that I voiced and Ishared with people close to me
saying this is where you'll findme, this is where I'll be on a
Sunday, this is where I'll be ona Tuesday, wednesday, and I
haven't let up.
Those are the things I do.
I have slacked off in fitness,I have slacked off in other
areas, but I have not let up onthese spiritual non-negotiables.

(01:08:56):
And whenever the behavior of aperson starts to prove that they
are a different person, thenthe family members.
With time, it'll take a while,but then the family members will
go.
That's a different Tom.
It's not what he's saying, it'swhat he's doing.
And so I just encourage mennon-negotiables, accountability,

(01:09:18):
journal it down, write it down.
You know the reason I know mycalling so crystal clear is
after years of multiple journals, I found a theme, I found a
common thread Tom talks a lot,tom's a golden retriever, tom
loves meeting people and Tom'sgot a testimony and Tom's a soul
winner.
It's pretty simple, like that'swhat I'm supposed to do.

(01:09:41):
If there's a microphone, great.
If there's not and I'm at a gasstation, it's the same thing.
A message was preached recentlyI'll never forget, and he talked
about uncommon pulpits and Ithink too many times people
think a calling is just a pulpit, a microphone, and they miss so
many opportunities throughouttheir day-to-day life where

(01:10:03):
there's people bleeding andhurting all around us.
The man in the ditch is rightnext to us at the job site, the
grocery store, but we miss thosebecause we're staring at our
phones or we're caught up in ourown life and we wait for a
Sunday ministry, we wait for acalling to do a certain thing
with a certain job descriptionand a title, and there are
people every day that we'relosing.

(01:10:26):
So I challenge myself andothers just ramp it up, find
those unique opportunities tosay hi, how are you?
My name's Tom, what are youdoing today?
What are your hobbies?
Where are you from?
As soon as that conversationstarts a little bit, then open
up with your story.
I always say I was in rehabthree years ago, but man, god

(01:10:48):
stepped into my life and thesepeople that I met 30 seconds ago
are saying why is he telling mehe just got out of rehab, right
?
So what's your story, ma'am,what's your story, sir?
And whether it's these podcasts, whether it's one-on-one with
people, just start to say itmore often.
One thing I miss is testimonyservices, but we do those at
Celebrate Recovery.

(01:11:08):
Often we get up and we're likeman, I'm one month free of anger
.
I'm one month free ofovereating.
I'm one month free of gossipingabout other people.
God is good.
God saved me from a barstool.
Whatever it is, it all shouldbe normalized.
To say this as long as there'sbreath, there's hope.

(01:11:28):
Hope for a better spiritual man, hope for a better physical,
all of it.
But if we just are passive andcomplacent and apathetic and
we're like oh yeah, I don't.
Don't know, man, I spend eighthours a day on my phone, but I
don't know why I don't have apurpose in this world.
Well, maybe shut the phone off,grab the bible, grab a journal,

(01:11:51):
grab some good books and reallydive deep on god.
Why am I here?
You made me.
Why am I here?
And just get real, realintimate with God, because he's
always speaking.
The issue is I just wasn'tlistening.
But when I started reallylistening and tuning into his

(01:12:20):
voice but the louder his voicegot, the further I got from
pornography and the music and weget to a be still and know that
I'm god he will be the one thatsays here's what I want you to
do.
And now the next step is justact on it by faith.
Say god told me let's go, andyou know, have have people in
your life that are in that.

(01:12:41):
Um, you know, same way ofthinking okay, well, very good,
your natural, your naturalspeaker well, god's given me a
lot to uh reach and is stillhelping me every day, right,
that's one thing too is when weare a sponsor or a mentor, guess

(01:13:03):
what?
We're also supposed to be asponsee or a mentee to other
people, or an assignment.
There's different words, butI've got a lot of good mentors
speaking into my life and it'sreally just a repeat.
Don't wait 10 years until yougot it all figured out.
You can perfectly do something.
Folks like progress, progress,just jump in and do it.

(01:13:25):
But if we're winding down here,I'll say this again If you want
to win the battle, if you wantto win the war, look at the
amount of minutes per week thatyou're spending on these two
devices and all of your lifewill change.

(01:13:47):
But only you know your screentime.
It'll tell you.
Hit a button, it'll tell youwhere you spend your time.
Look at your receipts, look atyour time stamp and then find
out how many of these youactually use.
It's the answer.
It's everything.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
The Bible is Absolutely Well.
Well, it was really nice tomeet you, tom.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
thank you for coming on the show and sharing your
story, and I wish you the bestof luck thank you and I'll send
you some things if you want tochoose to put it in the
description, but if we can be ofany help to anybody's life, tom
and lman Again, my wife's afull-time counselor and I do
coaching.
You can reach me, tom, atTom-Lymancom.

(01:14:33):
I'd be happy to talk and shareand suggest different things
that might better this temporarylife for you and also make it
for a beautiful eternal life.
So just trying to repeat whatpeople are pouring into us and
help others.
But thank you for the time toshare.
I know I might have poured outtoo much too fast, but an hour

(01:14:57):
can go by quick.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
So yeah, I sometimes I mean I've done two and a half
hour shows because I don't liketo rush the details.
Oh well, it was, it was, it waswhat it needed to be.
So I really appreciate the timeand and I just pray God
continues to bless your ministryand keep you and your family so

(01:15:19):
good job.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
Absolutely, kathy.
And the just the title of yourshow podcast there, the Redeemed
Backslider folks.
It's happening a lot and so Iencourage you know that there
are a lot of greatrecovery-minded churches, groups
, recovery programs, but we arefinally coming around to getting
more bold with just talkingabout it.

(01:15:42):
It really does help, so thankyou for having me on today.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
Yeah, it does, talking about it, it really does
help.
So, thank you for having me ontoday.
Yeah, all right, have a greatday.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
God bless.
We are so glad you joined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
tax deductible.
Visit our website attheredeemedbacksliderorg.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.